1
00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:04,920
Speaker 1: I'm Will Lucas and this is black Tech, Green Money

2
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,760
Speaker 1: fanz Morris is Lead Product Designer, Global Conversion at Netflix.

3
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,560
Speaker 1: He's an entrepreneur and self taught designer leading one of

4
00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,520
Speaker 1: the most impactful teams inside one of the biggest tech

5
00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,640
Speaker 1: and media companies on the planet. He's traveled all around

6
00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,040
Speaker 1: the world on his self driven educational adventures, and prior

7
00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,040
Speaker 1: to joining Netflix, he let a design team at Corsera.

8
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,640
Speaker 1: He's super passionate about mentorship and helping young designers on

9
00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,440
Speaker 1: their journey, spending a lot of time doing it. He's

10
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,280
Speaker 1: got a lot of big work on his plate, but

11
00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,200
Speaker 1: why it's helping young designers on their journey among the biggest.

12
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:43,320
Speaker 2: Thanks for shouting that out.

13
00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,479
Speaker 3: I guess the easy answer I can say is I

14
00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,640
Speaker 3: feel honored to be able to do that. Like everybody

15
00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,680
Speaker 3: doesn't have the opportunity to be able to affect that many.

16
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,560
Speaker 2: People or impact their community like that.

17
00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 3: So I think I'm just very honored to be able

18
00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 3: to do that, and that honor keeps me going as

19
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,399
Speaker 3: well as just that's my nature, that's just how I am.

20
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 3: I did a sixteen personalities test, and part of my

21
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,200
Speaker 3: strengths of that result of that test was I just

22
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,920
Speaker 3: want the best for everybody, is what they said. That's

23
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,080
Speaker 3: how I just look at the world. And I also

24
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,160
Speaker 3: look at the world as I want to be able

25
00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 3: to say that I have that I have and I

26
00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 3: had impact. I'm just honored and I enjoy seeing people

27
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,520
Speaker 3: thrive and grow and people open the door for me.

28
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 3: So it's almost a pay forward type of situation as well.

29
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,840
Speaker 1: So you are a self taught designer, and I'm interested

30
00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 1: in your take on today. You know, just several years ago,

31
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:47,840
Speaker 1: we were, you know, just talking about how you needed

32
00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,360
Speaker 1: to go to school. Companies required it because it was

33
00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,120
Speaker 1: part of their filtering process. These days, maybe not so much.

34
00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 1: I want you to speak on that. But being in

35
00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,880
Speaker 1: product design, how do you show, oh, number one, can

36
00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,160
Speaker 1: you do it being self taught? And secondarily, how do

37
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:04,960
Speaker 1: you show that you've got the jobs to do it?

38
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:13,160
Speaker 3: So yes, you can definitely get a See. The thing

39
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 3: is we have to be more specific about the type

40
00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 3: of industry that we're talking about or the specific company,

41
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,440
Speaker 3: because it's not fair to just say Google or Netflix.

42
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,600
Speaker 2: I know those are the fame companies.

43
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 3: So that could be big tech you want to say, right,

44
00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,679
Speaker 3: but when you think of all of the different places

45
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,760
Speaker 3: that are looking for product designers or are now adapting

46
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,600
Speaker 3: design thinking have now given design a seat at the table.

47
00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,360
Speaker 2: There's millions of companies that.

48
00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,840
Speaker 3: You're just never going to think of, right, So, yes,

49
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,400
Speaker 3: you can definitely get an amazing job a design job

50
00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 3: at any stage of a company's life cycle.

51
00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,359
Speaker 2: I can say you can go from being an entrepreneur and.

52
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,240
Speaker 3: Creating your own company to working at a startup to

53
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,840
Speaker 3: working at a Series B or C D company that's

54
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,720
Speaker 3: work one hundreds of millions, or you can work with

55
00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,600
Speaker 3: an IPO company and all of them will hire a

56
00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,600
Speaker 3: self taught designer because it's more about the experience that

57
00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 3: you have. So if you are able to use your

58
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 3: self taught skills to then get opportunities and get experiences

59
00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 3: to answer your second question, to show the skills that

60
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,600
Speaker 3: you have, that's how you get the job.

61
00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,080
Speaker 2: The other names and stuff go with it.

62
00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,919
Speaker 3: So if you tell somebody you work that meta, they're

63
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,760
Speaker 3: going to think you had a higher quality of experience,

64
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,640
Speaker 3: so that's why they're interested in you.

65
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,600
Speaker 2: Yes, the meta part.

66
00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,920
Speaker 3: Is important, but what is the real importance is they

67
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 3: think you have a certain skill set, so you need

68
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,040
Speaker 3: to be able to demonstrate that you have that skill

69
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,000
Speaker 3: set and that's through your experiences. So that's why you

70
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,080
Speaker 3: get a job that have a resume and have a

71
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,200
Speaker 3: LinkedIn page that shows where have.

72
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 2: You worked, what have you done, what skills do you have?

73
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,560
Speaker 3: And now the company decides does your skill set match

74
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,760
Speaker 3: the problem solving that they be done.

75
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's dig into that, because when you use the

76
00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 1: words skills a couple of times, I want to make

77
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,280
Speaker 1: sure people know what you're actually talking about. So, because

78
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 1: there's a difference between being like a pigma beast, like

79
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:16,360
Speaker 1: you can just run circles inside Figma or Adobe or

80
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,239
Speaker 1: and a difference between that and being just a person

81
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,520
Speaker 1: who develops really beautiful products. And so can you talk

82
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,640
Speaker 1: about when you say skills, I can show the skills

83
00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,880
Speaker 1: that I have. What do you define that for me?

84
00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,200
Speaker 3: So the skills would be defined by the individual of

85
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,040
Speaker 3: where they say their strengths are or where they want

86
00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,800
Speaker 3: to pursue their career in. When you think of a

87
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,479
Speaker 3: products life cycle, there's different phases in those different phases

88
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 3: require different skills. So if you are a visual person,

89
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,760
Speaker 3: you may want to focused on the visual design, which

90
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 3: maybe UI, which would be almost like a couple steps

91
00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,599
Speaker 3: into the process as opposed to per se, I'm a

92
00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 3: product designer and I'm trying to help ideate the idea

93
00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 3: and come up with it from the beginning, So my

94
00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 3: skills might be more just like an innovative thinker. I like,

95
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,039
Speaker 3: I'm good at brainstorming, I'm good at coming up with

96
00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,039
Speaker 3: zero to one ideas. So that might be the skills

97
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,799
Speaker 3: that I'm saying I have as a product designer. Where

98
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,400
Speaker 3: a visual designer might say what you just said of

99
00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,160
Speaker 3: I'm really good in figma, I've done a bunch of

100
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:32,440
Speaker 3: you why, I can really take take wireframes and bring

101
00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,839
Speaker 3: them to life and make them inciting and make users

102
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 3: want to interact with them. So that would be the

103
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,680
Speaker 3: skills of that person. Where if you were a ux researcher,

104
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,560
Speaker 3: you really can come up with deep understand you know

105
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,680
Speaker 3: how to interact with your users to get their insights

106
00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,240
Speaker 3: from them about different products that you may be working

107
00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,240
Speaker 3: on or different questions you have, So you have research skills.

108
00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:00,440
Speaker 2: So it's all about out.

109
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,359
Speaker 3: What do you want to work on, what brings you joy,

110
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,080
Speaker 3: what brings you passion, what excites you, and then now

111
00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 3: the skills for that specific industry or domain will be

112
00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,960
Speaker 3: different and will be unique, and they'll be overlapping things

113
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:15,200
Speaker 3: like that.

114
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,440
Speaker 2: But man, the bucket of skills is listen.

115
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 1: And so when you are you are today leading product design,

116
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,920
Speaker 1: particularly for conversion at Netflix, and in my view, I mean,

117
00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,560
Speaker 1: maybe this is me translating it for myself, but you're

118
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,560
Speaker 1: you're designing for sales, You're designing to keep people on

119
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,640
Speaker 1: the site. You're designed to keep people going down the

120
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,280
Speaker 1: rabbit hole in Netflix. So I'm gonna let you translate

121
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,919
Speaker 1: it for your own. I'm'na let you define that. But

122
00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,320
Speaker 1: when we think about product design, I when I listen

123
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,480
Speaker 1: to you talk, and I've listened to other interviews you've had.

124
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,320
Speaker 1: We've been friends for a while, and I listened to

125
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,520
Speaker 1: your other interview, and I'm like, this guy is a

126
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,839
Speaker 1: man that thinks about data. He's and I saw this

127
00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,440
Speaker 1: quote I want to bring up. I don't even know

128
00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 1: if you remember say this, but you said, at this

129
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: stage of my career, I don't like to guess. I

130
00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 1: don't like to assume either. The data doesn't dictate the design,

131
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,640
Speaker 1: but help support and give direction for it. So can

132
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,640
Speaker 1: you take those things I just mentioned there and just

133
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,200
Speaker 1: talk more about.

134
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,720
Speaker 4: That, yeah, for sure.

135
00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:25,200
Speaker 3: So the second part I love to speak on because

136
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,800
Speaker 3: when you're working with a user base that's as large

137
00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,920
Speaker 3: as Netflix is, we have about two hundred and sixty

138
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,280
Speaker 3: million subscribers, you really any decisions you make are going

139
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 3: to affect a large amount of people. Now, even if

140
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,000
Speaker 3: you do a small test, a small test for us

141
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,560
Speaker 3: might be two million people, that's still two million people.

142
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:49,040
Speaker 3: If we do like a multi large user based test,

143
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,680
Speaker 3: that could be fifty sixty million people.

144
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:52,800
Speaker 2: You really shouldn't be.

145
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,120
Speaker 3: Guessing when you're affecting that many people. And if you

146
00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,840
Speaker 3: have the resources and you have the data, now you

147
00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,080
Speaker 3: use that data to help figure out the dues and

148
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,080
Speaker 3: don't of solving this problem where if you're just guessing,

149
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,120
Speaker 3: you might make the wrong decision, where when you have

150
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,400
Speaker 3: the data might tell you shouldn't even be worrying about

151
00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,480
Speaker 3: that part of this problem, like that's not where the

152
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,840
Speaker 3: problem is, or this is where you should be focused

153
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,000
Speaker 3: more on. So that will fluctuate depending on the problem

154
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 3: you're solving. But that's where I'm coming from. Of I

155
00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,120
Speaker 3: still have to come up with the solution for it,

156
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 3: but my solution is a lot more educated, So my

157
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,600
Speaker 3: chances of success is a lot higher because I have

158
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,079
Speaker 3: the data to back it up.

159
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:38,920
Speaker 2: So that's where I'm coming from.

160
00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:44,559
Speaker 3: Of right now, I'm less about oh, did Fonds make

161
00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,200
Speaker 3: the right decision? I'm more focused on is this the

162
00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,079
Speaker 3: best decision for our user? And now what are all

163
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:51,880
Speaker 3: of the different things I need to do to make

164
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,319
Speaker 3: sure that that's the best decision. So it's almost says

165
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,800
Speaker 3: as my career have grown has grown, I've kind of

166
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 3: taken myself out of being the person that I'm designing

167
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,600
Speaker 3: for trying to make happy, and I'm really focused on

168
00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,440
Speaker 3: the user. So I'm very user centric with with my

169
00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,720
Speaker 3: design and my career I think now and.

170
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 2: Forever moving forward.

171
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,080
Speaker 3: I always was user centric, but there still was so

172
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,040
Speaker 3: much that I was focusing in and trying to just

173
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 3: prove to myself that I was a designer. Where now

174
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,439
Speaker 3: I'm more getting the job done. And to get that done,

175
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,000
Speaker 3: it takes a lot, like it takes a lot of

176
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,360
Speaker 3: cross collaboration, it takes a lot of understanding of multiple

177
00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,560
Speaker 3: domains at once, and it takes you being able to

178
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,320
Speaker 3: really know how to use the data to make the

179
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:39,199
Speaker 3: best decisions.

180
00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,520
Speaker 1: You just said something that I thought it was interesting.

181
00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 1: You just said, you know, I've I was trying to

182
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,040
Speaker 1: prove to myself that I was a designer. You know,

183
00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,160
Speaker 1: Tay you more about that if you can.

184
00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure.

185
00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 3: I think when anybody's getting started in the career, you're

186
00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:58,199
Speaker 3: trying to build that confidence up, and you're probably comparing

187
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,440
Speaker 3: yourself to people who you look up to, who have

188
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,040
Speaker 3: more experience than you, and you want to be in

189
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,160
Speaker 3: their shoes one day. So it's easy for you to

190
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,400
Speaker 3: kind of and I don't like this term, but it's

191
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:14,360
Speaker 3: true to kind of develop imposter syndrome. I don't think

192
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,400
Speaker 3: it's imposter because imposter is me trying to perform.

193
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:19,160
Speaker 2: Surgery on somebody.

194
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,440
Speaker 3: I have no right to even think about doing anything

195
00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,760
Speaker 3: in medicine, but a lot of things design related. I

196
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,440
Speaker 3: mean I might not be an expert in that, but

197
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,040
Speaker 3: I think I have the right to stand up. I

198
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,719
Speaker 3: know what I'm talking about. So it's not that you're

199
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 3: an imposter. It's just the responsibilities and the expectations. It

200
00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,520
Speaker 3: be so high sometimes that you don't feel like you

201
00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,599
Speaker 3: might be able to get it done, and you're constantly

202
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,600
Speaker 3: reassuring yourself through different projects that you work on. And

203
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,320
Speaker 3: we're only human and we're sensitive, and I think we

204
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,400
Speaker 3: forget about that part when we're building product and we're

205
00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,839
Speaker 3: building tech. It's like we forget about the humanity side

206
00:10:58,840 --> 00:10:59,840
Speaker 3: of it.

207
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,880
Speaker 2: And that's always there, it's the foundation of it.

208
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,760
Speaker 3: So when you're growing your career and as you move

209
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 3: to new jobs and with more responsibilities, you're constantly trying

210
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,559
Speaker 3: to prove to yourself that yo, you can do this.

211
00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,559
Speaker 2: And you're good enough and you earned to be here.

212
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,679
Speaker 3: And then depending on what other societal things you may

213
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,839
Speaker 3: have going on, like are you a female versus a male?

214
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,640
Speaker 3: Like are you from an underrepresented community? Like where'd you

215
00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,360
Speaker 3: go to school? All of those different things play a

216
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,600
Speaker 3: part when you're working in this, just like ecosystem, So

217
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:42,280
Speaker 3: at certain times you might find yourself I think not

218
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,920
Speaker 3: necessarily designing for the wrong reasons because you should make

219
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,560
Speaker 3: yourself happy, but you start to lose focus of what

220
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,560
Speaker 3: you should really be focused on. And that's why I

221
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,160
Speaker 3: said I'm a user centered now as opposed to just

222
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,080
Speaker 3: like what does fonds thinking?

223
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 2: Do I think this looks great?

224
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,800
Speaker 3: Sometimes it designs that end up shipping aren't the ones

225
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,360
Speaker 3: that I think are the best designs. But it didn't

226
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,680
Speaker 3: matter because the data proved that this other design was

227
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,719
Speaker 3: more efficient, so that's what we went with.

228
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, So in that same interview where I got that quote,

229
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,200
Speaker 1: you were talking about the data and you were talking

230
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,720
Speaker 1: about how, hey, somebody says, you know, people in Korea

231
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 1: are canceling, and then so now you're going to go

232
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,520
Speaker 1: dig into the data to figure out, Okay, is that

233
00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 1: really true? Number one? And then why? And you said

234
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: something I thought was so interesting. You were like, you know,

235
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,680
Speaker 1: at some level you've got to talk to them, talk

236
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:34,840
Speaker 1: to the customers and see, okay, why are you canceling?

237
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,840
Speaker 1: And I'm like, but he's at Netflix. And I remember

238
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,480
Speaker 1: this this quote from Paul Graham who said, you know,

239
00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,440
Speaker 1: do things that don't scale. Doing things that don't scale,

240
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,920
Speaker 1: that's how you get to scale. And I'm like, even

241
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,920
Speaker 1: at Netflix you are doing things. You can't pick up

242
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,640
Speaker 1: the phone and call it one million people, you can't

243
00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 1: pick up the phone and called fifty million, but you're

244
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,880
Speaker 1: talking still to customers, even at that bit of a stage.

245
00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to talk to customers. I mean, I

246
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,199
Speaker 3: think that's one of the favorite parts of my job. Honestly,

247
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,040
Speaker 3: we just had some calls that we had to really

248
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,080
Speaker 3: work hard to ramp up to get done because the

249
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,319
Speaker 3: timeframe of the window that we had to actually do

250
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,640
Speaker 3: the calls. And calls are qualitative research. So qualitative is

251
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,240
Speaker 3: when you're like physically talking to somebody. You're working with

252
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:25,439
Speaker 3: an individual versus like a focused group versus quantitative could

253
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:26,320
Speaker 3: just be surveys.

254
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,800
Speaker 2: So we could do a quantitative.

255
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 3: Survey and send that out the millions of people and

256
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,200
Speaker 3: now you're at the mercy of whoever opens it and spam,

257
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:36,040
Speaker 3: but you're going.

258
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 2: To get a huge group of people.

259
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,720
Speaker 3: Right, So quantitative is super valuable. But then qualitative is

260
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,120
Speaker 3: super valuable because that's me sitting down with you now

261
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 3: and me being able to show you and say, hey, Will,

262
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,880
Speaker 3: what's your thoughts about this? And then you say X,

263
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,080
Speaker 3: y Z, And then I show you something else and

264
00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:58,480
Speaker 3: you give this and you give that.

265
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,200
Speaker 2: So now to.

266
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 3: Come up with an idea that I think I have,

267
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,160
Speaker 3: but I'm not just relying on me validating it. I'm

268
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,480
Speaker 3: making sure that it actually has value for the people

269
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,479
Speaker 3: who who I thought.

270
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,120
Speaker 2: I'm solving is for.

271
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,840
Speaker 3: So by showing this to you, I can now hear

272
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 3: from you and you might give me a completely different

273
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,920
Speaker 3: set of feedback that is opposite of what I thought,

274
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 3: and it's better for me to hear that feedback from

275
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 3: you now and improve the idea or scrap the idea.

276
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,600
Speaker 3: Now I'll make the decision on how much of your

277
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,520
Speaker 3: input I want to take. But now when we start

278
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,680
Speaker 3: thinking of depending on the size of the research, If

279
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:41,200
Speaker 3: you do research of fifteen people and all fifteen people

280
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,480
Speaker 3: don't understand what's going on, that's a sign that most

281
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:45,520
Speaker 3: people are probably.

282
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:46,240
Speaker 2: Not going to know what's going on.

283
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,320
Speaker 3: So you can now take that information, take that data

284
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,080
Speaker 3: once again, go back to the drawing board, make some edits,

285
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,960
Speaker 3: go maybe test one more time, and now that second

286
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,040
Speaker 3: time around, you might see twelve people understand it. So

287
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,360
Speaker 3: the first goal zero understood it, you took the learners

288
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 3: from that, fixed it, went back twelve people understand it.

289
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,440
Speaker 3: Now you probably got a better chance of more people

290
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,640
Speaker 3: will understand that, and you figure out what's the next

291
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,680
Speaker 3: step of testing and things like that. So you tie

292
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,640
Speaker 3: the user research into experimentation, and I think it just

293
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 3: really allows you to build a way better product before

294
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,440
Speaker 3: it gets to market. And the last thing I'll say

295
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,280
Speaker 3: is the reason why that is important. When you have

296
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 3: a brand that is IPO, meaning they're trading on the

297
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 3: stock market. Their stock price can be very volatile and

298
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 3: tied to public perception and current brand state. So if

299
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 3: you roll out something bad that all of your users

300
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,040
Speaker 3: jump on Twitter x Instagram and they're talking smack, and

301
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,120
Speaker 3: now the market hears about that, that could negatively affect

302
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,320
Speaker 3: your stock price, which negatively affects your stakeholders and your shareholders,

303
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 3: and it's.

304
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,360
Speaker 2: Just it gets all bad. So you want to really

305
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,840
Speaker 2: avoid that when you really are.

306
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 3: A when the basis of your company is a product,

307
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,360
Speaker 3: like Netflix is a product.

308
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,040
Speaker 2: So it would be in our best interest to make sure.

309
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,360
Speaker 3: All of our products are at the highest quality every

310
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:12,560
Speaker 3: time you roll them out.

311
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,320
Speaker 2: And there are no snack.

312
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:19,320
Speaker 3: Foods or hiccups because that backtracking of that feature or

313
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,720
Speaker 3: that negative sentiment and the market can really affect us

314
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,200
Speaker 3: as a company. So not to be long winded, but

315
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,120
Speaker 3: that's why you have to do all of that, because

316
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, we're trying to make

317
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,560
Speaker 3: sure you all are happy, and when you're not happy,

318
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 3: everybody suffers, you meaning the customer.

319
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, there's something I've heard you say

320
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,360
Speaker 1: several times, and not just this interview, but others where

321
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,240
Speaker 1: you said, you know, at Netflix, like, you have a

322
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,320
Speaker 1: lot of resources, you have a lot of things you

323
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,280
Speaker 1: can pull from to be able to do things at

324
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,520
Speaker 1: a big scale small ster You get to pick big scale,

325
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,320
Speaker 1: small scale whatever. And so when you talked about doing

326
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,960
Speaker 1: that research, qualitative research, what I find is with a

327
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 1: lot of founders, and you mentioned this worst I'll bring

328
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,880
Speaker 1: back up, we're sensitive and so we can there's sometimes

329
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 1: you can be inauthentic with your questions to people with customers,

330
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 1: you know, potential users too, because you don't want you

331
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:13,920
Speaker 1: want to structure the question in a way to get

332
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,679
Speaker 1: the answer. You want them to give you right. And so,

333
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,640
Speaker 1: so how do so understanding what's sensitive? Understanding A lot

334
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,720
Speaker 1: of people who listen to this will be founders, will

335
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,280
Speaker 1: be entrepreneurs who are trying to get you know, to

336
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 1: the fame level. You know, Facebook, Apple, Netflix, Google, and

337
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 1: there's there's others now and video even when you choose video, yeah, incredible.

338
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,160
Speaker 1: So how do you how do you ensure you're being

339
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,680
Speaker 1: authentic in that qualitative research, especially when you're just trying

340
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,360
Speaker 1: you know, there's this whole other thing of you know,

341
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,240
Speaker 1: if you're not embarrassed by your first release, you've released

342
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,399
Speaker 1: too late because you could do so much research, so

343
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,199
Speaker 1: much design, so much et cetera, and now you just

344
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 1: spend a whole bunch of money, how much of resource

345
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,680
Speaker 1: or something that nobody even wants to use in the

346
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,320
Speaker 1: first place, right.

347
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:06,480
Speaker 2: Which is the worst case scenario.

348
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 3: And I think that's what a lot of founders are

349
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 3: companies end up doing. So you don't want to waste

350
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:19,159
Speaker 3: your time working on things that really won't solve the

351
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:24,199
Speaker 3: problem that that like you're looking for, or that the

352
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,119
Speaker 3: customer is like looking for. So you want to make

353
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,600
Speaker 3: sure that you're always talking to your your customers to

354
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 3: really understand, Like asking questions that don't solve the problems

355
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,160
Speaker 3: that the company needs is a complete waste of time,

356
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,719
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, Like, that's the most blunt

357
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 3: way I can put it. To go through the motions

358
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,960
Speaker 3: of scheduling or research, the finances, the time, the expense,

359
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,959
Speaker 3: like all of that stuff that it takes to do

360
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,399
Speaker 3: research to only ask questions to tailor them in a

361
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 3: way for you to get answers that you want is like,

362
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 3: that's just unprofessional. It's a waste of time. It's not

363
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,920
Speaker 3: going to really help you get anything done. Where this

364
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,760
Speaker 3: is a shout out to my UX researchers at Netflix.

365
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,959
Speaker 3: We grill like they come up with questions, We suggest questions.

366
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 3: We grill each other on the questions of like, that

367
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 3: question is just not going to get us to like

368
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 3: what you think we're going to get from that question.

369
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:22,840
Speaker 2: It's not really going to help us as much as

370
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:23,439
Speaker 2: you think it is.

371
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,199
Speaker 3: Like I've had my UX research and tell me that

372
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 3: many times, and.

373
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,679
Speaker 2: She wasn't trying to front on me or call me

374
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 2: out or nothing. She's just helping me. Think that.

375
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 3: Think about what do you need from every question that

376
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 3: you're asking and do you really need like do you

377
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 3: really need a vanity question? Like I tell you that

378
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 3: I like your shirt? Will I mean it feels good?

379
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 3: But do you really need that question? And the answer

380
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 3: is no.

381
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,560
Speaker 1: So it's like, no, you don't like my shirt, No

382
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:52,320
Speaker 1: you don't like my shirt.

383
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 2: I like your shirt. Do you really need to tell

384
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,880
Speaker 2: you you know, it's a nice shirt? You just want

385
00:19:58,920 --> 00:19:59,439
Speaker 2: to hear me?

386
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 4: There's other stuff I could probably tell you, I think

387
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,120
Speaker 4: about a UX research like that, that's a very important

388
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 4: time for you to interact with your user or interact

389
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 4: with your potential user and really understand and make that connection,

390
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 4: possibly bond with.

391
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 3: Them to really learn some critical information. So to waste

392
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,119
Speaker 3: that time would just be like sad. It would be sad,

393
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 3: and it's going to have an impact where it's going

394
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 3: to have a negative impact, where if you had asked

395
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 3: them the right questions, it could have like such a

396
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 3: positive impact because now you can really say, Okay, I've

397
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 3: shared this product with X users and this was their feedback.

398
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 3: And if the feedback is not what you wanted to hear,

399
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 3: so what you now use that feedback and you build

400
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 3: on it and you make the product better, and if

401
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 3: it is what you want to hear, then you're like, great,

402
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 3: we got some stuff validated in this research, and now

403
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 3: that gives a great life to do XYZ. So either way,

404
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 3: the UX research is so important, and talking to users

405
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 3: is almost if I'm a part of any company, if

406
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 3: I'm talking to any founders, if any of my peoples

407
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 3: have questions, I'm just always pushing for research, no matter

408
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 3: how many resources you have to bring us all the

409
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 3: way back. If you can only do research with five people,

410
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 3: that's better than zero. If you can do research with

411
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 3: fifty million like we can in Netflix, that's fantastic as well.

412
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 3: But just remember that the research is super super important.

413
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 1: If you're relearning or learning for the first time product

414
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 1: design today, knowing the tools that are available to you

415
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,919
Speaker 1: today versus what was available when you were so when

416
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 1: you were teaching yourself, then what would you what would

417
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 1: you be doing or what do you advise people to

418
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: do that's relevant? What are the tools that are relevant

419
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: today to learning those methods of learning.

420
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: I don't even think I would tell you to jump

421
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 2: into tools.

422
00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 3: I think tools is more like second, where first I

423
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 3: would tell people to focus more what kind of problems

424
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 3: do you want to solve?

425
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 2: First? Like, that's the first question.

426
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 3: That's like such a basic foundational question that I don't

427
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 3: think a lot of people probably have asked themselves in

428
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 3: the last couple of years. So first ask yourself that, right,

429
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 3: because that's going to open up the doors of if

430
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 3: you just pick a software, you may be able to

431
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 3: use that software, but that software may not be mandatory

432
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,400
Speaker 3: or it may not get you where you want to go,

433
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 3: as opposed to if you have under like if you

434
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 3: have an understanding of the problem you want to solve,

435
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 3: now you'll say, okay, well this means I'm going to

436
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 3: be a product designer versus a product manager. And if

437
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 3: you want to be a product manager, do you really

438
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 3: need to know figlente. It's okay that you can bounce

439
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 3: around in it, but that's not where you're going to

440
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,360
Speaker 3: spend most of your time. You're probably going to spend

441
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 3: most of your time in Google docs or Google slides,

442
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So having more of that

443
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 3: understanding of what problems you want to solve, where you

444
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: want to go, what you're passionate about, I think then

445
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 3: the tools will start to.

446
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: Move towards that. You'll see where like.

447
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 3: I gave the example of product manager might be more

448
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 3: Google sweet stuff, product designer might be more Figma, UI

449
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 3: engineer might be a little bit of Figma and Java script.

450
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 3: So you start to if you data science, you might

451
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 3: just be in some custom tools that you have, or

452
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 3: you may just be looking at reports all day. So

453
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a specific tool that I would

454
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 3: tell somebody to go to. I would tell them that too,

455
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 3: will make itself apparent after you understand either what problem

456
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 3: or what industry or what users you.

457
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 2: Want to be solving problems for, Like if that.

458
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 1: Makes sense, it mase and so you know, if anybody

459
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 1: follows you. And I know this well, like if anybody

460
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: follows you on any social they realize you are you

461
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 1: stay on the PJA you out here, you're really well traveled,

462
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: passport heavy. I do love traveling, and so you know

463
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: you I mean Europe, South you know, South America, Central

464
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: area is South Asia, all over the place. And I wonder,

465
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: can you be a successful designer with a local you know,

466
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: like having not traveled, especially for somebody like a Netflix.

467
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, for sure. But remember everything is relative.

468
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: Will like everything is relative, like do you want to work?

469
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 3: And some people don't want to work at a big

470
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 3: organization like Netflix. Some people like a smaller or or

471
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 3: some people want to be an entrepreneur.

472
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 2: So I think it's up to once again us to help.

473
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: People understand that you need to do that kind of

474
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 3: foundational self awareness work and then that will be the

475
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 3: pathway to everything else.

476
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 2: And then you'll be able to say, because.

477
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 3: Like a person who's in per se, like the Philippines,

478
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 3: maybe they want to work at Netflix, maybe they don't.

479
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 2: So instead of like just gauging.

480
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 3: It by the company, it's more of what does this

481
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: impact that you want to give? Look like are you

482
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: putting out break work where you're getting replied from your

483
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 3: users of your solving problems and they're happy to use

484
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 3: your product. You can do that in a lot of companies.

485
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 3: You don't have to just be at a big fane

486
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 3: company to do that. So by having that like self understanding,

487
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: I think you can thrive as a designer anywhere in

488
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: any continent, any country, any city.

489
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: Honestly, yeah, so let's let's so do you make me

490
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: bring up an AI question on this? Because you know,

491
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: AI is an incredible conversation to be having today. You

492
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: have to have this conversation at every level of any

493
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: type of technology discussion or even just life discussion these days.

494
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: Do you consider being better travel more having a bigger worldview?

495
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: I should say, maybe not even just travel, but a

496
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 1: bigger worldview allows you to be more valuable more of

497
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: an asset specific to design, Because if I only have

498
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: a modicum of skill, little bit of skills, there are

499
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: things coming for that. And so how do I make

500
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: myself more valuable to an organization because my perspective is better?

501
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: That's where that question comes from.

502
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hate you.

503
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 3: Well, I would honestly say that the traveling I think

504
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: is a passion of mine, and I've found a way

505
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: to tie that passion into my professional life through public speaking,

506
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 3: and that's how I continue to do that. I do

507
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 3: think I grow as a person by traveling because I

508
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: learned more about cultures, I see more things, I'm exposed

509
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 3: to more. So I think at the end of the day,

510
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 3: that helps me grow as funds, and me growing as

511
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 3: funds allows me to be a better designer. I think

512
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 3: that you don't have to travel to become a great designer.

513
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 3: I think the traveling does also help with your network though,

514
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 3: and I think networking is part of being a designer.

515
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 3: So I think it's more about what are you looking

516
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 3: for at that moment. I think traveling is important because

517
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 3: I think being open minded and learning and seeing and

518
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 3: experiences is one of the best parts of life, you

519
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 3: know what I mean. But I think there's a lot

520
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: of traveling that you can do just in the States

521
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 3: that a lot of people don't do. I still haven't

522
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: been to the Grand Canyon, you know what I mean,

523
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 3: Like that's one of the wonders of the world. I

524
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 3: still haven't been to Seattle. There's so many things I

525
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 3: still haven't done. So I think the international travel is

526
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 3: a pleasure of mind. It's like a passion of mind.

527
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 3: I've been traveling since I was a kid. But I

528
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 3: think that the designers nowadays, whether you're trying to get

529
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 3: started or whether you're a senior designer, travel would just

530
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 3: be an extra part of it.

531
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: Like I don't think it really is is even slightly mandatory.

532
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: You know, you've spoken that many conferences that you just

533
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: talked about your speaking career, which is you know, I'm

534
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: assuming parallel to your you know, corporate career. You spoken

535
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: to Afrotech and other stages, big stages Afrotech to Afrotech.

536
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 3: Shout out, they gave you, honestly, part of the like

537
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 3: to tie back into the first question that you asked me,

538
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 3: A lot of the reason that I'm so proactive in

539
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 3: the community is because of the doors of Afrotech Open.

540
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 3: Afrotech gave me a shot when I was like a

541
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: young young homie. I was just getting started out there

542
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 3: in the Bay Area with speaking. But that was such

543
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 3: a big stage in front of so many people, and

544
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 3: it's such a credible organization that after that experience, it's

545
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: just like I haven't looked back.

546
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: And that was literally five years.

547
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: Ago, Yeah, yeah, and yeah, you've done beautiful works and

548
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 1: so I'm on, I want to ask you about that,

549
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: like how do you you choose what you're going to

550
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: speak about when you hit those stages.

551
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: So I'm in a position where I'm fortunate enough where

552
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 3: they ask me what do I.

553
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: Want to speak about?

554
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: Usually, and there's different topics that I like to discuss

555
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 3: depending on who the audience would be or maybe with

556
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: the theme of the conferences about. And that's how I gauge.

557
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: For instance, when I went to Japan, I did a

558
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 3: full day workshop about inclusive design.

559
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: When I went to bill a C.

560
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,959
Speaker 3: Georgia recently, I did a talk that was more about

561
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 3: business design. I've done conversations that's more just about inclusion

562
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 3: in itself or accessibility. So I think it's more gauged around.

563
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: I'm so well versed in different things because I love

564
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 3: this stuff that I have the luxury at times to

565
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 3: pick different topics. It's always under designed to a certain extent,

566
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 3: but it's never the exact same talk or the exact

567
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: same slides or the exact same topic.

568
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: And so I mean, you know this better than most,

569
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: Like getting promoted and getting to your level has maybe

570
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: maybe more to do with how you navigate spaces and

571
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: your skill. It's not just about having the skill, it's

572
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: politics involved, and so how so how do you can

573
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: you discuss that and how what can we learn from

574
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: your story and how you've managed to do both well

575
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: be very good at what you do and manage the

576
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: politics of what you do.

577
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: That's a really good question.

578
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 3: I think you should probably say that one and ask

579
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 3: everybody that one. I would say, Man, I'm just I'm

580
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 3: just me. I'm just fonds, you know, Like I tell

581
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 3: people that all the time. I just this sounds cliche,

582
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: but I really try my best to be my authentic self.

583
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: I don't like when I'm not being my authentic self.

584
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 3: But I don't like when I'm switching or changing up

585
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: or thinking else, none of that, because that's not me.

586
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: Like I'm where I am because of who I am.

587
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 3: So like, I spend a lot of time working on

588
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 3: my self confidence, because you really need that self confidence

589
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 3: to fight these battles every single day, Like it's hard

590
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: out here, so definitely take the time too.

591
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: And then that self confidence comes in a lot of

592
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 2: different ways.

593
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: It's not just oh, you're confident because people tell you,

594
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 3: because people give you confidents all the time. Maybe you're

595
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 3: you're confident because you know it's sad. You put your

596
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: X amount of time into this, so you're good, you

597
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 3: know what I mean.

598
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: But having that type of.

599
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: Understanding is really important because there's going to be times

600
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: where this journey is going to test you. And when

601
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 3: you get tested is where you now have to decide

602
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 3: what are you gonna do? And the more confident you are,

603
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 3: the greater your chances are probably succeeding through those tough

604
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: times because you're probably gonna be able to still must

605
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: to rupt that energy, still must to rupt that faith.

606
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: You still have that belief in yourself that you can

607
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 3: get this done, as opposed to per se balance down

608
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 3: and being a nice person, Like being a nice person

609
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: goes a long way, and I don't think a lot

610
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: of people understand that anymore so and being very humble.

611
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: I'm a very humble dude. I'm still down to earth man.

612
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 3: I still my feeling is still get hurt. I still

613
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: blushed when somebody tells me something really positive about it.

614
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 3: So all of that to say is just like, remember

615
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 3: that it's about the journey, you know what I'm saying,

616
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 3: So make the journey as fun as possible, make it

617
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 3: as learn as much as you can, meet as many people,

618
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 3: help as many people as you can, you know what

619
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 3: I mean, Take as many risk as you can do.

620
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: All of that, that's all of the part of the journey.

621
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: Like you want to be able to look back on

622
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: your career and feel like, man, I really I left

623
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: it out there, like I left it all on the court,

624
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: like I gave them boards.

625
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: Five thousand percent. That's how I want to look at things.

626
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: So I make sure like I'm doing that. And now

627
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: there's different ways that I do that.

628
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: And that's like I do a lot of mentoring with

629
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 3: up and coming designers. Now more people reach out to

630
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 3: me than I can meet with, but the like ten

631
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: twenty fifty people I might meet with the year, that

632
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: still makes.

633
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: Me feel good, you know what I mean.

634
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: So knowing that I'm out there just giving it, giving

635
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: it all I got, and I think that's what everybody

636
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 3: should always strive to do, like leave it all out

637
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 3: there every day and that would be enough because when

638
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 3: you look back and just be like, yo, I did

639
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 3: the best I could do.

640
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: I did the best I could do, and that funds good,

641
00:33:58,320 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 2: Like it feels good to say that.

642
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is the production the Blavity, Afro

643
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: Tech and The Black Effect podcast Network and I Heart Media.

644
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: Is produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas, with

645
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: additional production support by Kate McDonald and Sarah Ergan. Special

646
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: thank you to Michael Davison Lovebeach. Learn more about my

647
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: guests and other tech disruptors an innovators at afrotech dot

648
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: com at the video version of this episode will drop

649
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube, So tap in

650
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: enjoying Black Tech Green Money. Shaw this to somebody, Go

651
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: get your money, piece and love