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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm fine because I know everything about this story, and

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Speaker 2: you don't know anything about this story, and I know

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Speaker 2: you've been thinking about it, haven't you.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, well it's so unusual because walking down this

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Speaker 3: John an Evelyn relationship and John ends up dead and

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Speaker 3: partially dismembered, and you're thinking, Okay, you know they took

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Speaker 3: care of a problem. But then you tell me there's

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Speaker 3: another body in a suitcase in Evelyn's residence, And now

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm extraordinarily curious as to where this is going

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Speaker 3: to go.

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Speaker 2: I will say this part of the story surprised me

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Speaker 2: a little bit. So let me go back just in

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Speaker 2: case people have forgotten the details of the story, which

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Speaker 2: I cannot imagine you have, but you might have. So

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Speaker 2: we are in Ontario, Canada. We are in Hamilton, which

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Speaker 2: is a medium sized city. Nineteen forty six, mid March,

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Speaker 2: Torso is found partially dressed, and it turns out to

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Speaker 2: be a man named John Dick. He was a streetcar

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Speaker 2: driver for a transportation agency in the city. He worked

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Speaker 2: it sounds like near or with his father in law,

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Speaker 2: whose name is Donald, and Donald's daughter is John's wife,

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Speaker 2: and her name is Evelyn. Certainly they had different approaches

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Speaker 2: to marriage because she admitted that she's been cheating on

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Speaker 2: him before, during, and after marriage. That their marriage only

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Speaker 2: lasted a few months. They had a quick romance, a

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Speaker 2: quick engagement, a quick wedding, and then a quick ending.

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Speaker 2: After three months, he moved out into his cousin's house

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Speaker 2: and Evelyn took up with a young man a couple

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Speaker 2: of years older than her, named Bill. And now the

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Speaker 2: police want to know about everything that's happening in this house.

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Speaker 2: She had a car, a packer that had blood in it.

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Speaker 2: That was Type O, which was John's type. There are

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Speaker 2: bone fragments and teeth pieces in ashes outside of their house.

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Speaker 2: The police have now ascended the staircase to the attic

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Speaker 2: and have found a suitcase that has a body in it.

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Speaker 2: And that's where I left off with you, because we

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Speaker 2: weren't sure before we get to that other body. We

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Speaker 2: weren't sure about the father in law's involvement. Maybe the

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Speaker 2: mother in law's involved too. We know that John threatened

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Speaker 2: Evelyn's father, Donald by exposing that Donald has been feeling

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Speaker 2: I mean, in today's money upwards of two million dollars

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Speaker 2: from this city department, which was very serious. So now

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Speaker 2: you've got somebody who's been threatened and he's very clearly

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Speaker 2: has body parts at this location. They're obviously involved in

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Speaker 2: some way. The question is how involved is Evelyn? Is

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Speaker 2: she just covering it up or was she directly involved?

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Speaker 2: Doesn't matter? I think it will matter how involved she was.

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Speaker 4: Oh, it absolutely does matter.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think one of the big questions

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Speaker 3: with the second body in the suitcase is who has

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Speaker 3: access to this location? You know, is this something where

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Speaker 3: people like Donald the father can freely come and go.

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Speaker 3: I completely forgot about Bill, you know, this new boyfriend

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Speaker 3: of hers, you know, and what is his potential involvement

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Speaker 3: in John's homicide?

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Speaker 4: And then who is the second body is this? You know?

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Speaker 3: On one hand, maybe this is all wrapped around Donald

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Speaker 3: trying to protect his financial interests with this this I'm

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Speaker 3: assuming an embezzlement type scheme out of the railway.

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Speaker 4: Or do we have some sort of predator you do?

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Speaker 3: We have this female serial killer on the loose, So

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Speaker 3: I'm very curious to see how this progresses.

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Speaker 2: Yep. And in the check box of where we feel

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Speaker 2: about Evelyn and Evelyn's involvement in anything criminal other than

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Speaker 2: being at a house, and it's seemingly covering up this

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Speaker 2: you know crime. So far, the police have said, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, they held her on vagrancy charges, which, just

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Speaker 2: as a little explainer, the vacrancy charges had been everything

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Speaker 2: from sex work to being homeless to you know, I'm loitering.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was like a catch all, and I

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Speaker 2: don't know if it's still like that now. I know

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Speaker 2: that vacrancy has been under fire, that sort of you

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Speaker 2: cannot arrest somebody simply for vagrancy. Is that right? At

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Speaker 2: this point?

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Speaker 3: I think the equivalent statute that I'm aware of out

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Speaker 3: of California is, you know this six forty seven PC,

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Speaker 3: which has all sorts of those subdivisions like sex work,

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Speaker 3: the drunken public. You know, there's various subcategories under six

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Speaker 3: forty seven. It sounds like this vagrancy statute up there

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Speaker 3: in Canada.

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Speaker 2: It's a big catch all, is my understanding. Yeah, But

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Speaker 2: they're holding her on these charges, that's why they're you know,

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Speaker 2: then going in and looking through the attic, they find

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Speaker 2: the suitcase and they open it up and inside they

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Speaker 2: find a baby.

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Speaker 4: Oh that's not where I thought this was.

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Speaker 2: Going, I know. So remember I told you she had

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Speaker 2: a series of kids. There was a stillborn baby. There

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Speaker 2: was a girl who's clearly alive, the one that she

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Speaker 2: said cut her face, and that's where all the blood

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Speaker 2: came from. This is Peter. And when Peter left the hospital,

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Speaker 2: which was this was just a year and a half

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Speaker 2: to two years ago, the year before she met John.

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Speaker 2: So John is not the father. When she left the

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Speaker 2: hospital with Peter, he was ten days old and he

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Speaker 2: was healthy. She said that she took him to an

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Speaker 2: adoption agency. And obviously she didn't now what the pathologist says,

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Speaker 2: and I wish I had more details about this. What

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Speaker 2: the pathologist said was they believe that Peter had been strangled,

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Speaker 2: and he had been encased in cement and then put

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Speaker 2: into this suitcase, and he had been up in the attic.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming John didn't know about this for you know,

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Speaker 2: two years. Sure, so they're surprised, to say the least.

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Speaker 3: But it also speaks volumes about Evelyn. Assuming Evelyn is

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Speaker 3: the one that killed Peter, She's very willing to resort

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Speaker 3: to homicidal violence to get rid of somebody that is

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Speaker 3: cramping what I'm going to assume is cramping her lifestyle,

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Speaker 3: extrapolating that out to John, you know, And then the

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Speaker 3: big question is is that who else helped Evelyn? Did

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Speaker 3: anybody else help Evelyn? We know Evelyn is involved in

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Speaker 3: aspects of John's homicide. She's the one that is getting

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Speaker 3: that packered that car from the auto place and then

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Speaker 3: returning that car, you know, so, and that car has

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Speaker 3: obviously been used to transport John's body to dispose of

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Speaker 3: the remains. And whether or not John is killed in

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Speaker 3: that car, he's cut up in that car.

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Speaker 4: Who knows at this point.

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Speaker 3: So Evelyn is involved, but to what extent is she

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Speaker 3: the killer? Did somebody else kill John? And then Evelyn

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Speaker 3: helped dispose of the body, maybe even helped with the dismemberment.

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Speaker 3: Right now, we don't have any information, but you throw Peter.

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Speaker 4: Into the mix.

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Speaker 3: In all likelihood, Evelyn is the one who strangled this

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Speaker 3: ten day old infant and then try to hide that

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Speaker 3: body with the cement. But again sloppy. Why is that

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Speaker 3: body still inside the residence inside a suitcase. There's so

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Speaker 3: many better ways to go about disposing of that body than.

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Speaker 2: That process that nobody had found it true, with the

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Speaker 2: exception of you know, of course, her being under suspicion

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Speaker 2: for murdering her husband. And then they go up there

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Speaker 2: and start looking around, and I don't know how much

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Speaker 2: her parents know. I do want to go back to

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Speaker 2: John because they've searched the house, they find this body.

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Speaker 2: They're stunned by the discovery of this infant baby, and

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Speaker 2: then of course the bone fragments and the teeth of John.

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Speaker 2: So then they say, we need to get the hell

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Speaker 2: over to Donald and Alexandra's house. So Evelyn's parents big

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Speaker 2: search and this is what they find, and maybe this

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Speaker 2: will help you figure out the order of things, because

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Speaker 2: right now I'm curious about the order of events. They

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Speaker 2: find a pair of John shoes in the basement which

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Speaker 2: are blood stained, and there is also a large butcher

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Speaker 2: knife and an axe, neither of which seemed to have

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Speaker 2: blood on him, you know, according to the media, but

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Speaker 2: who knows. They also find a thirty two caliber revolver

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Speaker 2: that a ballistic expert would later say could have caused

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Speaker 2: the gunshot wounds. Remember, we don't have casings or bullets

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Speaker 2: or anything on his body. Does that make sense? Can

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Speaker 2: they kind of eyeball that and say, wow, this looks

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Speaker 2: like this kind of a bullet could have grazed his

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Speaker 2: body in this way, so it was probably a thirty

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Speaker 2: That doesn't seem like hard evidence to me.

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Speaker 3: No, I can't really see where they could draw any

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Speaker 3: type of conclusion. You know, of course, a larger caliber

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Speaker 3: bullet could potentially leave a larger grazed wound. Dealing with

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Speaker 3: such an elastic surface in terms of the skin, there's

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Speaker 3: so many variables at play unless there's something just significantly

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Speaker 3: unusual that I can't think about. I think all they

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Speaker 3: could say is is that these appear consistent with the

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Speaker 3: Gray's wounds from bullets, and there's no way you can

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Speaker 3: tie a gun or a caliber of weapon to that.

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Speaker 3: So I think they overstretched on that conclusion.

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Speaker 2: I mean, at least it just shows that that Donald

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Speaker 2: has a gun. You know it's there. Yeah, So they

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Speaker 2: also find I thought you'd appreciate this. They also find

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Speaker 2: a magazine called Famous Detective Stories. I think this is

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Speaker 2: different from the true detective trash stuff we talked about before,

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Speaker 2: but still there is an article that they has been

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Speaker 2: here you're marked. That's how to dispose of a corpse

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Speaker 2: through incineration one oh one, how to do it. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to blame these magazines. I think it's sort

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Speaker 2: of silly. But at the same time, you know, we're

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Speaker 2: not talking about crime porn here. We're talking about how

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Speaker 2: to on how to get rid of a body. So

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Speaker 2: it sounds like Donald was doing some research. If we

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Speaker 2: think that this is connected.

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Speaker 3: For sure, you know we see this today. There's reasons

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Speaker 3: why suspects computers and phones and tablets are confiscated during

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Speaker 3: an investigation and then searched underneath a warrant to see, well,

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Speaker 3: what are they looking at and what are they researching

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Speaker 3: leading up to the you know, the timeframe of a

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Speaker 3: crime being committed, and oftentimes, as I mentioned before, you know,

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Speaker 3: most of these offenders have never killed before, and so

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Speaker 3: now they're trying to find information on how to do it.

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Speaker 3: And it's just you know, here we're talking nineteen forty six.

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Speaker 3: You've got the paper magazine that has an article that

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Speaker 3: just happens to fit with how John's. Part of John's

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Speaker 3: body was disposed of.

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Speaker 2: Well, they go back also and continue to do searching

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Speaker 2: of work the torso was found, because they're hoping to

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Speaker 2: find more information about whomever this person is who dumped

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Speaker 2: the torso in the rural area. And they find a

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Speaker 2: striped shirt that's found in the woods and it's identified

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Speaker 2: as the one that John was last seen wearing. The

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Speaker 2: shirt was completely buttoned up as it would have been

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Speaker 2: when it was worn, and both arms of the shirt

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Speaker 2: were cut off and the shirt was stained with blood.

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Speaker 2: I can't even picture what that means. So what happened

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Speaker 2: that you can tell so far? You know, the shoes,

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Speaker 2: there's blood, there's a butcher knife at Donald's house, at

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Speaker 2: her parents' house, and then the incineration. It sounds like

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Speaker 2: happened at their house, at Evelyn and John's house.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Well, and it appears that John is killed

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Speaker 3: and in all likelihood, like I talked about before, it

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Speaker 3: probably a gunshot wound to the head, and that can't

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Speaker 3: be proven because his head is gone and presumably incinerated.

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Speaker 4: But it does not appear that whoever.

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Speaker 3: Is cutting up John is taking the time to take

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Speaker 3: the clothes off. You know, they're literally just cutting his

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Speaker 3: arms off, you know, sleeves and all. Now, the pathologists

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Speaker 3: should be able to determine from the cut ends of

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Speaker 3: the Let's say that the humorous on both arms, you

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Speaker 3: know what type of tool was used.

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Speaker 4: Was a saw used, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, based on the tool marks that are present in

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Speaker 3: the end of the bone, or is it more consistent

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Speaker 3: with the axe. And that's not necessarily an easy thing.

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Speaker 3: You know, you have to take multiple swings with the

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Speaker 3: axe in order to be able to hack through the

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Speaker 3: say the upper upper arm, and there's a good chance

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Speaker 3: you're going to miss and you're probably going to hit

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Speaker 3: part of the Torso doesn't sound like you have any

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Speaker 3: information in terms of the pathologists rendering an opinion on

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Speaker 3: the type of tool marks present on the bone ends.

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Speaker 2: No, no, And you know, like they said that the

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Speaker 2: axe and the other weapon that they found, it didn't

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Speaker 2: appear to have blood. I'm sure it did, they just

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Speaker 2: couldn't see it. Yeah, So what I mean, maybe not,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what.

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Speaker 3: All depends on how how well the tool has been cleaned,

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Speaker 3: how bloody it got in the first place. You are

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Speaker 3: dealing with the dead body. So now the heart is

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Speaker 3: not pumping. You hack through these long bones and the

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Speaker 3: arms and the legs. I mean, there is going to

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Speaker 3: be blood that seeps out, but it's not gushing out

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Speaker 3: because there's no pump present. The heart is done. So

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Speaker 3: you know, it's possible that, let's say that if this

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Speaker 3: axe or this butcher knife had been used, you know,

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Speaker 3: blood staining likely would be present, but it may not

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Speaker 3: be present where now it's seeping down in between the

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Speaker 3: blade and the handle and all that they just cleaned

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Speaker 3: it up.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, so far this seems pretty damning. Is this circumstantial?

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Speaker 2: I mean, how would you label this case so far?

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Speaker 2: Against You've got Donald and you've got Evelyn. We don't

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Speaker 2: know anything about Bill just yet, and then we don't

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Speaker 2: know about them all Alexandra.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's evidence. I will tell you from a physical

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Speaker 3: evidence standpoint, it is a strong case that these individuals

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Speaker 3: are involved. What you don't have is who's doing what

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Speaker 3: right And so this is where interviewing and it sounds

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Speaker 3: like if you've got parts of the crime scene at

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Speaker 3: Donald's house and parts at Evelyn's house, sounds like, well,

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Speaker 3: we have multiple people involved, and you know, you think

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Speaker 3: father daughter may be very loyal to each other.

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Speaker 4: Maybe not.

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Speaker 3: You know, you have to kind of play one against

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Speaker 3: the other in terms of what their statements are and

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Speaker 3: the jeopardy each one is subjected to. But then is

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Speaker 3: there a third person? And again I go back to

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Speaker 3: this new lover of Evelyn's, this Bill Evelyn sounds like

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Speaker 3: she's somebody who would be willing to seduce a man,

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Speaker 3: to get that man to commit a crime for her,

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Speaker 3: and then probably eliminate that man as a witness after

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Speaker 3: let's say the homicide of John is done.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you their theory first, just about the crime,

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Speaker 2: and then I'll tell you about arrests. So I think

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Speaker 2: this is what we've been talking about, the theory that

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Speaker 2: the prosecutors say, once they've gathered all of this information,

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Speaker 2: they say that John was murdered in the packer, likely

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Speaker 2: from a gunshot wound too the head, like you said,

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Speaker 2: but of course the head has been destroyed, presumably in

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Speaker 2: the fire. It's theorized that he was dismembered at Donald's house,

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Speaker 2: but the limbs were incinerated in Evelyn's furnace, and then

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Speaker 2: John's torso was dumped in the woods, probably because it

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Speaker 2: was too It was actually too big to fit into

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Speaker 2: the furnace, so I think they went, oh shit, we

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Speaker 2: got to put it somewhere, so they dumped it, you know,

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Speaker 2: in this place. That all makes sense to you, I'm

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Speaker 2: assuming rise or anything you disagree with in the prosecutor's case.

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Speaker 4: No, that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I think it's it's interesting that they didn't bother to

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Speaker 3: further cut up the torso, to incinerate it. It's possible

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Speaker 3: that once they kind of got to the point where

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Speaker 3: they did with the dismemberment of John, they're going, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is unpleasant.

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Speaker 4: You know, we just were not going to bother with

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Speaker 4: the rest of the body.

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Speaker 3: Let's just go dump it, you know, because it takes

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Speaker 3: a certain what do you want to say, disposition, you know,

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Speaker 3: to hack up a body and do it without possibly

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Speaker 3: having to go throw up or going oh, I wasn't

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Speaker 3: expecting this.

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Speaker 4: I think they abandoned.

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Speaker 3: The body disposal process early, considering that Donald had a

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Speaker 3: magazine article on how to dispose of a body through incineration.

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Speaker 3: So it seems like they didn't carry out the plan

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Speaker 3: as far as they could have in terms of getting

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Speaker 3: rid of the body through incineration.

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Speaker 2: We've got some arrests. So remember they were holding Evelyn

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Speaker 2: on vacrancy charges, really vague vagrancy charges, which to me

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Speaker 2: it sounded like because she doesn't have a full time job,

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Speaker 2: maybe you know, I mean stealing money, it was just

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Speaker 2: a way for her to away from them, to keep

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Speaker 2: a hold of her for a little bit. Yeap, okay.

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Speaker 2: So they have brought charges for John's murder against Evelyn

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Speaker 2: and Donald and the mom Alexandra, who they think was

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Speaker 2: involved also, and Bill, who is Evelyn's I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think boyfriend is a pretty loose term for what he

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Speaker 2: probably was. I think you're right. I think he was

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Speaker 2: probably a little bit of a patsy. So Evelyn just

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Speaker 2: starts turning on people, which doesn't surprise me. She implicates

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Speaker 2: Bill in the murders of John and this baby. I

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Speaker 2: will not drag this out. She didn't even know Bill

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Speaker 2: when she was pregnant. I was going to say with Peter,

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Speaker 2: I mean, what is she thinking. So she's saying he

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Speaker 2: strangled my kid, and it was easily proven you know

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Speaker 2: that this was not the case. So I don't know

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Speaker 2: if she's just throwing she's not smart, she's throwing stuff out,

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Speaker 2: but she is trying to pin this on everybody but herself.

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Speaker 3: Sure, you know, and again we've just seen this lack

336
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Speaker 3: of awareness and knowledge and how the crime scene has handled,

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Speaker 3: how sloppy it is. And now her statements are sloppy.

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Speaker 4: In many ways.

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Speaker 3: You know, this is something that those investigators would be

340
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Speaker 3: able to easily see through. And when she's making those

341
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,280
Speaker 3: types of statements which are obvious lies, you know, those

342
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 3: are just like ding ding ding, you know, both for

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Speaker 3: the investigators going okay, you know we're on the right track,

344
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Speaker 3: and for the prosecutors who will put that information in

345
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Speaker 3: front of a jury.

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Speaker 4: You know. So and in part it may just be,

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Speaker 4: you know, she's what twenty five years old.

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Speaker 3: In all likelihood, you know, this homicide of John is

349
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Speaker 3: much more complicated than what she thought it was going

350
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Speaker 3: to be you know, it's a ten day old infant.

351
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Speaker 3: She came up with the excuse of well, the reason

352
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Speaker 3: this infant is not Peter's not around anymore is because

353
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Speaker 3: I gave him up for adoption, when in reality he's

354
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Speaker 3: in case and Cement in a suitcase in her attic.

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Speaker 2: Well, Evelyn and Bell are charged with the murder of Peter,

356
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Speaker 2: and you know Bill will get out of that once

357
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 2: they realize the timeline a little bit. So Donald and

358
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 2: his wife are both charged additionally with John's murder, and

359
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: Donald is, on top of that, charged with stealing money

360
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,200
Speaker 2: from the transport agency that he worked for. So this

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Speaker 2: becomes a huge media sensation, as you can imagine, front

362
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Speaker 2: page news all across the country. Lots of people show

363
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,359
Speaker 2: up trying to grab a seat and they want to

364
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 2: gawk at someone they describe in the newspapers in the

365
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,119
Speaker 2: forties as a femfetale, which that really pisses me off.

366
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Speaker 2: It's so dismissive. But they of course have photos of

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Speaker 2: her sort of like lounging in this chair. She is

368
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,640
Speaker 2: an attractive woman, she's very hip looking. This sets up

369
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Speaker 2: for this media circus because her sex life comes out

370
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Speaker 2: all over this trial. And this is the slutshaming that

371
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Speaker 2: I was talking about and how it plays into the trial,

372
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Speaker 2: because there is, for me, the Evelyn who very clearly

373
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Speaker 2: was involved in two murders. But then there is also

374
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Speaker 2: the Evelyn who you know, when they put her on

375
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Speaker 2: trial it is just like your horror and you did

376
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 2: this because you're a whore. So it's hard to reconcile

377
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Speaker 2: the two together. And so I want to talk about

378
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Speaker 2: That's what we're heading next, is getting a fair trial.

379
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Speaker 3: In terms of the slut shaming aspect of Evelyn. I

380
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 3: guess I would need to know, Okay, what is being

381
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Speaker 3: attributed to how the media is portraying her, and then

382
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 3: what is how is she being portrayed in court? You know,

383
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 3: because in some aspects her relationships do play in to

384
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Speaker 3: the people the prosecutors laying the groundwork for motive, if

385
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 3: you will. But is it completely needed, you know, I

386
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,360
Speaker 3: think it all depends on how the prosecutors are laying

387
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Speaker 3: their case out.

388
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Speaker 2: Well, I wasn't going to tell you this until a

389
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,879
Speaker 2: little bit later. I'm going to read you this a

390
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 2: little bit from the trial right now, just to give

391
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,199
Speaker 2: you an idea of what it was like. She's on

392
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 2: the stand. Now, this is a preliminary hearing, but she

393
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 2: also testified at her trial. She is on the stand

394
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Speaker 2: and the prosecutor says, tell the court how many men

395
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,479
Speaker 2: you've had sexual intercourse with? And she says maybe one

396
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty. Now, I don't know if she's gigging

397
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 2: him or if that's accurate. Either way, that's her truth.

398
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Speaker 2: I want you, this is the lawyer, I want you

399
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 2: to name these men for the court right now. Who

400
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 2: are they? She says, well, his son for one. She's

401
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 2: looking at the judge. The lawyer says, were you indicating

402
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 2: his honor? And she says, yes, the judge's son. The

403
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: judge immediately struck the testimony from the record and issued

404
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 2: a restraining order on the publication of the names of

405
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 2: these one hundred and fifty men that she's talking about.

406
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 2: That's where this trial is going. And I'm not saying that.

407
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 2: You know, some parts of this are probably going to

408
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 2: be applicable, but this was pretty blatantly framed around her

409
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: being this temptress. So boy, I mean, I don't want

410
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: to ever defend Evelyn, but this is sort of a

411
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Speaker 2: case where I went this is gross. It felt so

412
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: gross reading the transcripts.

413
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 3: You know, well, that's that's extending out past what I

414
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 3: would say, you know, the nexus of the crime is, yeah,

415
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 3: you know, I think her coming out and admitting that

416
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 3: she ended up having sex with a man within a

417
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 3: few days of being married, you know, really establishing how

418
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 3: she maintained a lifestyle involving multiple men outside of her

419
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 3: relationship with John kind of establishes this dynamic where people

420
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 3: would go, Okay, I can see where she really never

421
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 3: loved or cared for John, you know. So I can

422
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 3: see utilizing the relationships surrounding the crime to underscore sort

423
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 3: of the dynamic between Evelyn and John, but not bringing

424
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: in her entire love life from five years four. You know,

425
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 3: that doesn't that doesn't equate. That sounds prejudicial.

426
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 2: Let's switch over to another woman who takes in her

427
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: stage here, and that's Evelyn's mother, who flips on her.

428
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: So the men in this family seem sort of strangely

429
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 2: loyal or in this story no women or not. Alexandros

430
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 2: flips on Evelyn. She agrees to testify for the prosecutor

431
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: in exchange for legal immunity. Okay, so remember they kind

432
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 2: of took a net and arrested everybody and then said

433
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: let's sort it out. She does not say too much,

434
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: but she does say that even though Evelyn says, yeah,

435
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: I got the packer, but I was with my parents

436
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 2: the whole time, she said, there was a long time

437
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 2: when she was not around. On March sixth, and she

438
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,959
Speaker 2: said that before the torso was discovered, but after John

439
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: had been you know, declared missing, that Evelyn had said

440
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 2: John's dead and you better keep your mouth shut about it.

441
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: And that's what she said to her mother. Boy this family.

442
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 2: So this is her mom testifying. This is specifically her trial,

443
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 2: so she's not testifying against her own husband yet, but

444
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: this is this is the way this is going. Are

445
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: you surprised by that?

446
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: No?

447
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: You know, I think it really comes down to the

448
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 3: family dynamics, because you know, when we started talking about

449
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 3: Evelyn and her upbringing and how it sounded like she

450
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: had an abusive childhood with Donald and Alexandra, I kind

451
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 3: of wonder what the relationship between Donald and Alexandra was, Like,

452
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 3: maybe he's abusive to her obviously, you know, with mom

453
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 3: flipping at this point, it's self preservation and her self

454
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: preservation is superseding any mother daughter feelings that she has

455
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 3: with Evelyn.

456
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: Well, and it sounds like I don't know how much

457
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: knowledge Alexandra had, but enough to be able to say, well,

458
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: I'm I'm not gonna risk my own skin for my daughter.

459
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 2: Evelyn's not particularly helping herself. She keeps changing her story

460
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 2: a lot. Time magazine reported on it, and they said

461
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 2: that at some point she said a gang from another

462
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: town must have killed him. She said that also the

463
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 2: gang was hired by Bill the boyfriend, and that actually

464
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 2: Bill did the killing, but her father, Donald was the

465
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 2: one who strong harmed him into it. And you know

466
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 2: Donald hated John. So who else you know, would have

467
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: been responsible for this. So the one thing she does

468
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: admit to is she says, you know, I did drive

469
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: that packer to the location where we dumped the Torso

470
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: so she's admitting to be I guess it would it

471
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 2: be an accessory, is at what she's admitting to if

472
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 2: if she's kind of covering it up.

473
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, she's she's minimizing her role. That's what

474
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 3: it sounds like. You know, all these statements that seem

475
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 3: to conflict about you know, who actually is doing what.

476
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 3: You know, it's pointing fingers at the other players and

477
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 3: not her right, she's saying, well, I only did this

478
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 3: everybody else, did you know the really bad stuff? And

479
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 3: she's kind of taking a shotgun approach with her statements.

480
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 3: She's conflicting herself multiple times. You know, this just all

481
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 3: speaks to she's making things up on the fly with

482
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 3: hope something sticks.

483
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, she really is, and not being very smart about it. So,

484
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of this case covers the evidence,

485
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: and we've talked about their physical evidence, their circumstantial evidence,

486
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: but we do talk a lot about the slut shaming

487
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: that happens. There is a lot about her black book,

488
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 2: and the black book has all of these very important

489
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 2: men who she's supposedly slept with. You know, that's why

490
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: there's a huge media circus around this as people want

491
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: to hear those names. And I think that the attorneys

492
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: on both sides are just constantly trying to keep the

493
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 2: names out because these are very important men in the

494
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 2: area at the time. So as we move forward, do

495
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: you think of these people? So we've got Alexandra, who

496
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: I guess it doesn't matter. She has gotten immunity, so

497
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: she's not going to be held or she won't be

498
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 2: convicted no matter what. But with Evelyn and Donald and Bill,

499
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 2: which we don't know very much about these three people,

500
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: who is the strongest case against Do you think it's Evelyn?

501
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 2: I mean, if we're looking at first degree murder, obviously

502
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 2: this was planned kind of thing.

503
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 3: It seems like you have equivalent cases against both Donald

504
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 3: and Evelyn, and a lot of that has to do

505
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: with you know, you have the physical evidence found at

506
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 3: Donald's place. He also the gun, which you can't conclude

507
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: is a murder weapon, but appears that he had the

508
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 3: ability or Evelyn did at Donald's place to shoot John.

509
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: And maybe Bill did you know, I don't know how

510
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: he's factoring into this at this point. But then you

511
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 3: also have all the evidence at Evelyn's place, you know,

512
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 3: And I think it really just comes back down to, well,

513
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 3: doesn't sound like Donald can alibi himself and say I

514
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: wasn't there. Of course, my daughter can go into my basement,

515
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: you know, and spend time down.

516
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 4: There in terms of hacking up John. But as I.

517
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 3: Mentioned earlier in this story, is well, who benefits from

518
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 3: this homicide? And the reality is is Donald probably financially

519
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: benefits the most because he's preserving his criminal operation through

520
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 3: the rare way and then buzzling two million dollars, and

521
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: with the level of income that Evelyn seems to possess

522
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 3: without actually having a job to point to as being

523
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: the source of the income, suggests that she's getting the

524
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 3: pass through money from her father, so she's financially benefiting.

525
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 3: And John became sort of a problem and he was eliminating.

526
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 3: So I think you have equal cases against both Evelyn

527
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: and Donald.

528
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 4: I don't know about Bill.

529
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, right now, we're just gonna deal with Evelyn because

530
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: this is her trial, and whatever the jury heard was

531
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: enough to convict her of his murder. There's still more

532
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: to this story, but she is given the death penalty,

533
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 2: which is something for a woman in nineteen forty six

534
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: in Canada. I was pretty surprised.

535
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm surprised. Okay, So before we.

536
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: Talk about what happens after that, let me kind of

537
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: clean up everybody else. Bill is released of all charges

538
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: for everything. He wasn't dating her or sleeping with her

539
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: when Peter was born. They've proven that, and there's zero

540
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: evidence that he was involved at all with John's murder. Now,

541
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: he might have been, but they don't have enough evidence

542
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: and so ultimately they just let him go. I'm assuming

543
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: you agree with that. I mean, I think we just

544
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 2: think there's what is there he might have done something,

545
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: but there is nothing that says other than her word,

546
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: that he did anything.

547
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it doesn't sound like they have any

548
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 3: type of case against Bill, and you know, I don't

549
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 3: know if he had any role in it. But I

550
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 3: also think that potentially Evelyn and Donald being arrested possibly

551
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: saved Bill's life.

552
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: I agree. I mean he could have been well, he

553
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: could have been a patsy. They could have killed him.

554
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: I mean, we don't know. Yeah, you're right. I mean

555
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: they're very dangerous people. Donald. I don't agree with this.

556
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: He's found guilty of being an accessory to John's murder

557
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: five years, He's given five years, plus another five years

558
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: for robbing you know, the transport agency, and he's released

559
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: from prison in nineteen fifty one. I mean, he is out.

560
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 4: I'm surprised at that.

561
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: I'm a little bit too. And I don't know, it

562
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like Alexandra, his wife, testified against him. It

563
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: sounds like they just didn't have enough evidence and maybe

564
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, between the witnesses saying she

565
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: had the car. They're putting her with that car. She's

566
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: admitting she drove the car, and I think Donald probably

567
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: just said, listen, just because this stuff is at my

568
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: place doesn't mean I had any involvement, and they couldn't

569
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: prove anything. Yeah, you know, I mean his daughter has

570
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: access to his house. Likewise, he and his wife have

571
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: access to her house.

572
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: So and I think that that's when in assessing Donald,

573
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 3: it really does come down to what could they prove

574
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 3: in terms of where he was at at the time

575
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: John went missing, was likely killed. What kind of freedom

576
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 3: of movement does Evelyn have into and out of John's house? So,

577
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: you know, on that front, I can kind of see, Yeah,

578
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 3: maybe they don't have as strong of a case against Donald.

579
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 3: I just go back to who benefited the most from

580
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 3: John's homicide, and it really is Donald.

581
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: Well listen to the rest of this. She is given

582
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: the death penalty, but right after her sentencing she gets

583
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: mystery money together. It's not her dad. I don't know

584
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: where she's getting this money from, but she hires a

585
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: well known attorney.

586
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 4: I think she has probably multiple wealth.

587
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 3: The men that, based on past relationships, are concerned that

588
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: she might divulge that they were, you know, having a

589
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: sexual affair with her or whatever that they're now saying, Okay,

590
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 3: we'll give you money in order to keep your mouth

591
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: shut about our relationship together.

592
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she hires a guy named John Robinette. He

593
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: appeals her conviction. Of course, he cites twenty five procedural

594
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: issues in her case. He says many of the statements

595
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: used against Evelyn and Court were improperly obtained by police.

596
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: He says that they did not adequately caution her after

597
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: charging her with murder. Remember they held her on vagrancy

598
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: charges where they cautioned her. So they don't have Miranda

599
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: warnings in Canada, but they have something very similar and

600
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: they did it for vagrancy apparently, but not for the

601
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: murder charges. And I would not be telling you about

602
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: appeals points if it did not work. And it worked.

603
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

604
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 3: On my other podcast, we interviewed a Canadian law enforcement

605
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: officer and they have a at least during the course of

606
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 3: his career, which is more recent than nineteen forty six.

607
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 3: They definitely have a very very similar requirement to what

608
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 3: we know as Miranda here in the United States. And

609
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: I can't remember what he called it. And so I

610
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: can see where Evelyn is taken into custody and they

611
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 3: basically let her know her rights now that she's in custody,

612
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: and then she never leaves custody and is now in

613
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: essence arrested and charged with murder because of her custodial

614
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 3: status at least here in the United States, you know,

615
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 3: that's where she needs to be told what her rights are.

616
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 3: In addition, there's also a scenario where because she's in

617
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 3: custody and she's represented by an attorne, then law enforcement

618
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 3: interviewing her for more charges can sometimes get a little dicey.

619
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 3: And I know, you know, because currently there's been some

620
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: people I'd like to go in and talk to who

621
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 3: have been convicted and possibly we're involved in other crimes.

622
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 3: But the DA's involved in the conviction are saying, don't

623
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 3: not well, he's represented and he's got an appeal going on, right,

624
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 3: And this is not Joe DeAngelo Golden State killer. It's

625
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 3: another guy, you know. But now her defense attorney is basically,

626
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 3: you know, probably doing a pretty decent job in terms

627
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: of going look at you know, law enforcement, the prosecutor's side,

628
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 3: whatever they're called up there you know, they they misstepped m.

629
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a successful argument, and Evelyn is retried,

630
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 2: and this time her attorney so she keeps this attorney.

631
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: Robinette emphasiz this the possibility that Donald the dad, not Evelyn,

632
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: killed John, and he is very convincing that, just like

633
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 2: what you said, who really had the motive here, who

634
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: had threatened John in the past, who was going to

635
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 2: be exposed and arrested and fired and publicly humiliated in

636
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 2: all of that stuff, when John was going to come

637
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: out and report this, and John had already gone to

638
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 2: the police. So Robinette says all of this, and it worked,

639
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: and she has found not guilty of murdering her husband.

640
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 2: In this second trial, she pleads guilty to being an

641
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: accessory after the fact, but she is only then sentenced

642
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: to four years in prison. And it's not over yet.

643
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: But I will say, I mean, boy, when you have

644
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 2: a good attorney, they can work wonders. And he knew

645
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: exactly where to go with this. And I don't agree

646
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 2: with this either.

647
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily agree with the outcome, but I think

648
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: I agree with the strategy. Yeah, yeah, because all Robinette

649
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 3: has to do for Evelynce is create reasonable doubt at

650
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 3: least that would be the term here in the United States,

651
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 3: and imagine it's a similar criteria, you know, for the

652
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 3: Canadian court process, and that's what he could do because,

653
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 3: you know, particularly in terms of the physical evidence side,

654
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of, is there anything that there

655
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 3: would be things that I'd be looking for, let's say,

656
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 3: during the crime scene investigation that would support let's say

657
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 3: Evelyn's presence, you know, at the time of the homicide,

658
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 3: you know, gunshot. There might be something as an example,

659
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 3: And this is just kind of fabricating based on the

660
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 3: circumstances the type of evidence I'd be looking for. If

661
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 3: John were truly shot in the head and possibly shot

662
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 3: in the head multiple times, the shooter potentially could have

663
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 3: backspatter from the entry wounds of the gunshots, in which

664
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 3: blood and brain matter can spatter back onto the gun

665
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 3: as well as the shooter's hand, the sleeves down on

666
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 3: the pants leg. You could have shattered hair if it's

667
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 3: a close enough shot to the head where that shattered

668
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 3: hair would end up depositing on the shooter. So of course,

669
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 3: trying to collect let's say Evelyn's clothing and Donald's clothing.

670
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 3: In this day and age, that would be a form

671
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 3: of evidence to try to determine who actually was the shooter. Now,

672
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 3: John could have been shot from a distance, and you

673
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 3: don't have any of that back spatter coming back onto

674
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 3: the shooter, you know, And then now you have to

675
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 3: rely on the interviews and statements and finger pointing as

676
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 3: to well, who really is the shooter in this case?

677
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: But if he's shot from a distance, wouldn't that have

678
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 2: done damage to the packer, which the owner didn't mention

679
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: any kind of damage except hey, where's my cover to

680
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 2: this seat? Wouldn't there a bullet have gone somewhere?

681
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 4: Right?

682
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: So when I say a distant you know, with a

683
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 3: thirty two caliber revolver, the back spatter is going to

684
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 3: be relatively minimal, you know. So you're talking about a

685
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 3: very close range shot, you know, and I'm just going

686
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 3: to throw out, like, you know, within two feet, and

687
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 3: unless there's actual shooting, we would do what's called distance determinations.

688
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 3: But you'd also try to get a sense for the

689
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: power of this this particular handgun and this particular ammo.

690
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 4: Of course, the more powerful the weapon, the more gases

691
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 4: that are discharged.

692
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: From the weapon, let's say, like a three fifty seven magnum,

693
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 3: there's a greater likelihood of having more blood brain matter

694
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 3: coming back, either as backspatter or from the rupture of

695
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 3: the skull itself. And now you see the shooter get

696
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 3: a fair amount of biological evidence on them. Okay, thirty

697
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 3: two caliber is not a very powerful weapon, but it's

698
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 3: something that when I say a distance, I'm talking yeah,

699
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 3: like the shooters actually within the vehicle that's where John

700
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 3: is shot, got it, but not up close.

701
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: It sounds like John's settled. So you know, you've got

702
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: Donald who has been the scapegoat for Robinette, and as

703
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: an accessory, she has been given four years in prison.

704
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: The prosecutors are pissed off, and so she goes on

705
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 2: trial for murdering her infant son. Robinette does not have

706
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: anything clever except to say, we've got to get her

707
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: out of the death penalty, because they were going to

708
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: go for the death penalty here. And he could not

709
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: figure out a way to say somebody else did it.

710
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 2: It's clear she did it, so he said, because of

711
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: her trauma and abuse at the hands of her parents

712
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: as a child, she had been emotionally stunted. She didn't

713
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: understand that there were consequences for her actions, and the

714
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: jury buys it, and she has found guilty of manslaughter

715
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: and she's given a life sentence, right, so she spared

716
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: the death penalty. She's supposed to be spending life in prison.

717
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 2: But I think you probably know I'm heading down a

718
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 2: road where she does not spend life in prison for this.

719
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: So now she's been implicated and involved in two murders.

720
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 3: I guess, you know, I just don't know what criteria

721
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 3: up in Canada is used to justify the death penalty.

722
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 3: You know, I'm really struggling to see, you know, the

723
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 3: death of the infant's son, how there would be an

724
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: argument for, you know, first degree murder with special circumstances

725
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 3: if in fact Peter was strangled that show's intent. Does

726
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 3: this come down to Peter is crying, Evelyn is just

727
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 3: getting so frustrated with this baby crying that she just

728
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 3: acts in sort of in the heat of the moment

729
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 3: and strangles Peter. This would be more kin to like

730
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: a second degree murder type of scenario in California. Manslaughter.

731
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 4: I don't know.

732
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 3: I'm not having too much issue with what Evelyn is

733
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: ultimately convicted of. I'm surprised that if it's a manslaughter

734
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 3: of this ten day old infant, that would be a

735
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 3: life sentence, right.

736
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 2: I don't know why that was a sentence. I will

737
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: tell you she does not serve life. She only serves

738
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: around eleven years total. In nineteen fifty eight, she's paroled.

739
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: She's only thirty eight years old. She gets a new

740
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: identity and totally falls off the radar. She's fully pardoned

741
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty five. According to this newspaper, I mean,

742
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: I have no idea. This is what it says. Her

743
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: government file remains sealed after she was granted a royal pejorative.

744
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: I guess is that what I would say?

745
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to rely on the attorneys in the

746
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 3: no to describe what that means.

747
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, okay. Her government file remain sealed

748
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 2: after she was granted a pardon in eighty five, a

749
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: special pardon that is awarded an exceptional cases of substantial

750
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 2: injustice or undue hardship, which would not seem to apply

751
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 2: an Evlyn Dick's case. But many believe she had friends

752
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: in high places who helped her get this pardon. As

753
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: a wider strategy to muzzle stories about the people she

754
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 2: was having sex with. Yeah, so we're back to the

755
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,919
Speaker 2: Little Black Book. You know, this is when she's now

756
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 2: sixty five and she gets this full pardon where her

757
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: case is basically you know, sealed, so nobody knows anything

758
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: about it. And this is decades later.

759
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 3: I mean, gosh, that's what it sounds like to me,

760
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 3: you know, because it seems like that, you know, the

761
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 3: Christ well, she was actually acquitted of John's homicide, right

762
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 3: or of his murder.

763
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: She was given four years as an accessory.

764
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 3: Accessory murder, okay, and then and then life for Peter's murder.

765
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: Right.

766
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

767
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 3: Again, it's it's it's it's hard for me to to

768
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 3: to figure out the life sentence, which seems like it

769
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 3: might be excessive, just depending upon you know, what kind

770
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,479
Speaker 3: of case the prosecutors laid out.

771
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 4: But yeah, the.

772
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: Black Book, the people in the Black Book, sounds like

773
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 3: she had some a at least one deep pocketed person

774
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 3: that was supporting her to be able to hire the

775
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 3: fancy attorney. There may be multiple depocketed people who, of course,

776
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 3: over time, you know, probably continue to have influence and

777
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 3: at any point if Evelyn ever felt that she had

778
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 3: been betrayed by any of them. She could have divulged

779
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 3: her secrets and so they're just trying to protect their asses,

780
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 3: would be my guess.

781
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. There were, of course rumors of where she went.

782
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: People have been trying to figure out where she went,

783
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 2: who she became afterwards, reporters and biographers. They said some

784
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: people thought she moved to Winnipeg under the name Betty.

785
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 2: Other people thought she married a wealthy man and left town.

786
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: That actually seems on brand, and others insist she stayed

787
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 2: somewhere in Ontario. I don't really care what she did

788
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: after she got out of prison. What I care about

789
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: is a statement that you made long long ago, which

790
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 2: was when we found out that Peter had been strangled

791
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: and then encased in cement into a suitcase. This baby,

792
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 2: this newborn baby, she did that, and she participated somehow

793
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 2: in the murder of her husband. This is someone who

794
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: is capable of removing an obstacle that is stopping her

795
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 2: from living the life she wants to live. And that

796
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 2: makes me concerned for whomever she was, whomever she encountered

797
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: after she left the life of Evel and Dick. And

798
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: that's that we don't know if she killed other people

799
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 2: because we don't know who she is.

800
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's a dangerous woman. She was thirty eight when

801
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 3: she gets out.

802
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, she would be one hundred and four last year.

803
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 2: I would think not, but I mean, listen, she lived

804
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: to at least sixty five because she got an official pardon,

805
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 2: but nobody knew where she was when that happened.

806
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I'm just thinking, Okay, how would I figure

807
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 3: out who?

808
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 4: You know, who she became?

809
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 3: And you know, one way, is she still a child

810
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: bearing age at age thirty eight when she gets out?

811
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 3: Does she have any children? Have they had any children?

812
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 3: Are they up in the genealogy databases? You know, would

813
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 3: we be able to triangulate back and identify Evelyn via

814
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 3: That means, you know, if there was a reason, you know,

815
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 3: a justifiable reason to track her down, that's an avenue

816
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 3: to pursue.

817
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: You know.

818
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 3: Of course there's the investigator side, but I think just

819
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 3: through genetics, just through genealogy, there's a way to identify

820
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 3: what ended up happening to Evelyn.

821
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 2: Well, it's possible that her daughter, Heather is still alive

822
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 2: because she was born in forty one, but we don't

823
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 2: know what happened to Heather, And I don't know if

824
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: there would be a reason. It's interesting to hear that

825
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: if there needed to be a reason, there are possibilities,

826
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 2: and Heather might have had children, you know, yep.

827
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: Most early, and you know that there is a source

828
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 3: that could be used for genealogy and you could potentially

829
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 3: we identify Evelyn using DNA.

830
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 2: It's interesting to bring up things like the slut shaming

831
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: and finger pointing and the black books and stuff like that.

832
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: And normally for me, I feel like it's focusing on

833
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 2: the victims and the prosecutor or the media or the perpetrator,

834
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: the offenders being the ones who are doing the slut shaming.

835
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 2: Who are you know, retraumatizing survivors, revictimizing victims, all of that,

836
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 2: But to have the offender who clearly is an offender

837
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 2: for me to say, God, I don't like the way

838
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 2: this trial's going. I mean, I know, ultimately you have

839
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 2: to go down different roads, but this was a pretty

840
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: ikey road for the prosecutors. At some point when you

841
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: go above and beyond explaining somebody's sex life, I think

842
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 2: that having that on display with a very messy case

843
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 2: involving a family and threats and everything. Nobody's perfect in

844
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: this story. We almost never have perfect people, Paul.

845
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 3: Well, crime is messy, right, No, I kind of along

846
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 3: those lines. You know, this is where you know, there's

847
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 3: there's reasons why prior cases, prior behaviors by the defendant

848
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 3: don't get admitted into court because they're overly prejudicial. This

849
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 3: is where the judge has to, you know, step in

850
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: and the defense attorneys need to object. So you know,

851
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 3: there is attempts at protection from what ended up happening

852
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 3: to Evelyn in terms of her sexual relationships with all

853
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 3: these men. A lot of at least the way you're

854
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 3: telling it to me, doesn't seem to have any bearing

855
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 3: on the crime itself. It really is just prejudicial. And

856
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 3: of course that also could potentially influence jury selection.

857
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 4: You know, if the media is portraying this, you.

858
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 3: Know, after prelim and now they have to select a

859
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 3: jury and they've seen the headlines about you know, this,

860
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 3: this woman and her relationship, how is that going to

861
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 3: impact a fair trial? So I think I definitely agree

862
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 3: with you. It appears that Evelyn, as a defendant, her

863
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 3: right to a fair trial was potentially violated and ultimately

864
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 3: She ended up getting an attorney that was able to

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00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 3: get her conviction overturned.

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00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, and let a very very, very dangerous woman

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00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: out into the world to do god knows what. Hopefully

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00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: Jos live a quiet life and be done with it,

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00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 2: but I somehow doubt it. I don't know. Next week,

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00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 2: Let's hope we have a less dangerous woman. If they

871
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 2: are the offender, will see. We'll see that's unlikely. Female

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00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 2: offenders are some of the most dangerous I have found.

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00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 4: They're the most conniving for sure.

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00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: Okay, I will see you next week.

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00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 4: Rust up, all right, We'll do take care.

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00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: Thanks. This has been an exactly right production for our

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00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 2: sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash

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00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 2: Buried Bones sources.

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00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

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00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 2: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

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00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook. At

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00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 2: Ary Bones.

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00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 3: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

888
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

889
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 3: the criminal mind, is available now

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00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

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Speaker 2: cold cases, is also available now