Speaker 1: Welcome to the All Ball Podcast. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and
Speaker 1: remember you can you can listen to The Doug Gotlieb
Speaker 1: Show every afternoon three to six Eastern Time, twelve three
Speaker 1: Pacific XM Serious, two oh three and two seventeen. Don't
Speaker 1: ask me in which one you can find it. Um.
Speaker 1: We're on the same channel as Dan Patrick on Sirius
Speaker 1: xm UM. And of course you can go to Fox
Speaker 1: Sports Tradio dot com. You can also download The Doug
Speaker 1: Gotlieb Show daily on iTunes wherever you downloaded this podcast.
Speaker 1: Remember too, what is it to download, subscribe and to
Speaker 1: rate our podcast? Because I don't think it helps me financially,
Speaker 1: but it helps my podcast rank ratings or whatever. Um,
Speaker 1: and the downloads have been great. Listen. I'll leave the
Speaker 1: final four with this. There was seventy six thousand six
Speaker 1: two people. That was great basketball four amazing stories. I
Speaker 1: don't know how Auburn got to where they should have
Speaker 1: gone to the national championship without h mckeeky, but they
Speaker 1: probably should have, right. Uh. Virginia is the national champion,
Speaker 1: coming from losing to Maryland Baltimore County to winning an
Speaker 1: S championship amazing. And then the way in which they
Speaker 1: won the last three games. Uh, Michigan State losing Josh Langford,
Speaker 1: losing two pros, Heck nic Ward getting hurt, and then
Speaker 1: winning the Big Ten, the Big Ten Tournament, beating Duke,
Speaker 1: going to a final four and coming back and having
Speaker 1: a ball in the air down three chance to tie
Speaker 1: the game late incredible and uh and then Texas Tech
Speaker 1: who lost four starters. And like I think the world
Speaker 1: of Chris Beard. I would only say this with with
Speaker 1: Chris Beard, if I could, I could make one change,
Speaker 1: I would have taken out Odossi after he made the
Speaker 1: free throw to put him up three. I know they
Speaker 1: switched five all year long, but he gets beat and
Speaker 1: then I don't know why Cover you know, leaves the
Speaker 1: best player on the floor in the corner open for
Speaker 1: a jump shot instead of given up the easy two.
Speaker 1: They would have had a one point lead. But they're
Speaker 1: college kids. This happens, and um I thought ultimately it
Speaker 1: cost them. Obviously, there were some calls that went the
Speaker 1: way of Virginia. Um I. Also, I'm gonna play for
Speaker 1: you something that you might find interesting that this was
Speaker 1: Tony Bennett on my radio show talking about a conversation
Speaker 1: he and I had after the college basketball season last
Speaker 1: year when they lost to Marylyn Baltimore County. You bring
Speaker 1: up Key and he did have a huge championship game,
Speaker 1: but I also think it speaks to you and your
Speaker 1: ability to read the game on the fly because Key struggled,
Speaker 1: you know a little bit with with their size, with
Speaker 1: their length, and really they're just older guys, right, He's
Speaker 1: a kid, They're they're grown men. And I thought you
Speaker 1: made uh and they kind of change their line up.
Speaker 1: They went to a little bit of a small ball lineup,
Speaker 1: and it it caused you to change. Was that was
Speaker 1: that part of your plan um to play Key that
Speaker 1: much in the championship game or is that something you've
Speaker 1: felt as the game went on. I felt that as
Speaker 1: the game went on. And Doug, I'm gonna give you
Speaker 1: some credit. You and I had a conversation. You know,
Speaker 1: we go back so many years. You know, um our
Speaker 1: fathers were both you know, legendary coaches who have poured
Speaker 1: so much into us. And after last year's UNBC game,
Speaker 1: you know, you and I talked. I can't remember if
Speaker 1: we did an interview or not, but you talked and
Speaker 1: you challenged me and encouraged me that you know, obviously,
Speaker 1: like everyone would grow from this game, but you know,
Speaker 1: can you can you find ways when the tournament comes
Speaker 1: to play differently even through the year, try different things,
Speaker 1: whether it's offensively or defensively, um or lineup wise. And
Speaker 1: I remember that conversation and I and I knew we
Speaker 1: had to do that because you know, obviously we were
Speaker 1: good last year and DeAndre Hunter allowed us to play small,
Speaker 1: and then when DeAndre got hurt in the n c
Speaker 1: A tournament before that, we couldn't we didn't have that
Speaker 1: four guard lineup. Well. This year, when Braxton and Key
Speaker 1: got eligible, I knew at times we're gonna be able
Speaker 1: to play Key has a five and Ray as a
Speaker 1: four or vice versa, and a real small lineup. And
Speaker 1: then against Perdue, we needed to go big with salt
Speaker 1: and and mom Andy, so you kind of challenge me.
Speaker 1: We added some things and I really tried to think
Speaker 1: hard about that, and I thought in tournament runs, you
Speaker 1: need to be able to have the versatility to mix
Speaker 1: things up offensively or defense. We used the offense against
Speaker 1: um Texas Tech in the championship game that we hadn't
Speaker 1: hardly used all year because they ran a different kind
Speaker 1: of defense with the way they forced it on the
Speaker 1: side and switched, and so you have to have those
Speaker 1: things ready in those situations. So yeah, you know, look,
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into fouls. By the time
Speaker 1: you download this podcast, you probably forgot about the blow
Speaker 1: by both the play by play of different things. I
Speaker 1: will say this, and I'm I'm sure I'm annoying to
Speaker 1: a lot of people who I'm friends with in college basketball,
Speaker 1: text back and forth with ironically all four of these teams.
Speaker 1: I worked a little bit for Bruce Pearl. I know
Speaker 1: Stephen really well. Uh, Dane Fife is gonna be our
Speaker 1: guest and coaches, Um, I communicate with them often throughout
Speaker 1: the season. Tony Bennett don't communicate as much with but
Speaker 1: we go way way back. My dad, of course, was
Speaker 1: the coach at u W Milwaukee. His dad's a Wisconsin legend.
Speaker 1: He's always been super kind to me. Um. At some
Speaker 1: point I'll have him on this pod and we'll talk
Speaker 1: about how Clay Thompson became a Washington State Cougar. I'm forgetting. Oh,
Speaker 1: and then Chris Beard has to form local and state
Speaker 1: assistant coaches and head coach Sean Sean Sutton on the staff,
Speaker 1: and I become pretty close with with coach Beard as well.
Speaker 1: So I know all of these guys and so I'm
Speaker 1: probably annoying to them and that I do text them
Speaker 1: and call them and give you it's not giving my
Speaker 1: two cents, sometimes another set of eyes. It's valuable. And
Speaker 1: I always tell him like, hey, listen, if you don't
Speaker 1: if I don't know I'm talking about fine. But what
Speaker 1: I told Tony Bennett, what I encouraged Tony Bennett to do,
Speaker 1: I was like, look, I think your style of play
Speaker 1: is fine. I think you're going to get to a
Speaker 1: fun four. I think you've got a chance to in
Speaker 1: a national championship. But I think your percentage chances increase
Speaker 1: if you continue to add to your offensive repertoire. Remember,
Speaker 1: here's the guy who played overseas Um, here's the guys
Speaker 1: playing in the NBA. And it's not for lack of knowledge,
Speaker 1: it's just you can't simply depend on blocker mover and
Speaker 1: not have other tricks in the back. They went to
Speaker 1: some ball screen continuities. This year, they've put in more
Speaker 1: NBA sets. Of course, I think most of the college
Speaker 1: basketball world loves one of their elevator plays that they
Speaker 1: ran um But more than anything, I encouraged him. And
Speaker 1: this is just a general philosophy I have in life,
Speaker 1: but especially in sports, which is, hey, the goal of
Speaker 1: a team when they're preparing for you is to make
Speaker 1: you play left handed, make you do something that you
Speaker 1: might be uncomfortable doing, and so and oftentimes coaches will
Speaker 1: fall back on, well, you know, it's just a bad
Speaker 1: matchup for us. It's just a bad matchup. That's what
Speaker 1: it was. We lost because it was a bad matchup,
Speaker 1: and that's reasonable. Sometimes there's certain styles, certain teams where
Speaker 1: you just don't match up well against. You know, you
Speaker 1: just got limitations based upon your personnel. That's gonna happen.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, I remember I was I was
Speaker 1: covering I don't want to tell you the team's name,
Speaker 1: but I was covering a team this year and at
Speaker 1: the end of a game, they ran a play for
Speaker 1: a shooter, for a left handed shooter, and he came
Speaker 1: off of It's one of those players I call it
Speaker 1: the nail. When you drive to the base in instead
Speaker 1: of throwing the hammer, you come back behind you and
Speaker 1: the shooter from the top of the key comes to
Speaker 1: shoot the basketball. Well, they ran that play and left
Speaker 1: handed player shot fakes, and even though the to go
Speaker 1: to the right was open, he wanted to come back
Speaker 1: to a strong left hand. He went back to the defense.
Speaker 1: It wasn't as open. They lose the game. And so
Speaker 1: when I when I talked to with with the coaches afterwards,
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, just question, why didn't you run
Speaker 1: that to the other side of the court. And they're
Speaker 1: like why. I was like, well, this particular player is
Speaker 1: left handed. He likes hurling off the screen, you know,
Speaker 1: moving to his left, and then if he shot fakes,
Speaker 1: he likes one trouble to his left, that's a that's
Speaker 1: a shot for him. He's like, well, we we had
Speaker 1: never had though that that lineup in that position of
Speaker 1: a game to run that play. And I thought to myself, well,
Speaker 1: whose fault is that right? And again this is the
Speaker 1: general philosophy have which is like, especially a coach, like,
Speaker 1: so this is why I told told told I do it.
Speaker 1: This sounds really arrogant. I didn't win him a national championship.
Speaker 1: I didn't tell ma anything profound that he probably didn't
Speaker 1: already know and challenge himself. But this is a thought
Speaker 1: that I have, which is, you know, look, challenge yourself
Speaker 1: to sometimes create artificial adversity. Take a look at a
Speaker 1: different lineup, Take a look at guys at different spots,
Speaker 1: not just in practice, not just in scrimmages, not just
Speaker 1: in exhibition games, but in real games. Take a legit
Speaker 1: look at a small lineup, Take a legit look at
Speaker 1: a big lineup, the three point guards out there at once,
Speaker 1: press what does it all look like? Because you you
Speaker 1: don't know in a one and done scenario or playing
Speaker 1: for your league championship, how somebody's gonna try and make
Speaker 1: you play, or what type of matchup may ultimately expose
Speaker 1: what you normally want to do. And if you don't
Speaker 1: have a second gear or a third gear, or you know,
Speaker 1: a different if you don't have that, then what you
Speaker 1: do can become stale, and people spend all year figuring
Speaker 1: out whoa what do you do? And how do we
Speaker 1: do it? How do we they say, how do we
Speaker 1: stop them from scoring? And how do we score against them?
Speaker 1: You know, I understand the pragmatism to hey, listen, I
Speaker 1: just want to win this game and don't win this game,
Speaker 1: but sometimes you gotta play the long game. You gotta
Speaker 1: develop a bench. You gotta develop a small line up.
Speaker 1: You gotta develop a big line up. You gotta develop
Speaker 1: a pressing line up. You gotta develop a what do
Speaker 1: we do against the zone, and what do we do
Speaker 1: when we can't do that against the zone. Because my
Speaker 1: you know, my best shooter or my guy bet who
Speaker 1: was best in the high post, he's in foul trip,
Speaker 1: or he's sick, or he broke a pinky finger or whatever,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, I encouraged him to run more some
Speaker 1: more ball screen stuff, because like Dane Fife is going
Speaker 1: to tell us, kids grow up learning to play off
Speaker 1: ball screens, and yet we're retraining them when they get
Speaker 1: to college to teach him how to play motion game.
Speaker 1: At some of these schools, you gotta sometimes play with
Speaker 1: some of their strengths. Tony did that, But I I'm I.
Speaker 1: I would readily admit I'm super annoying as a fan
Speaker 1: and a friend and a basketball guy to so many
Speaker 1: of these coaches. And I text them suggestions and things
Speaker 1: that I think. We have long conversations, and generally it's
Speaker 1: to continue to watch and evolve. And yeah, you always
Speaker 1: have your base. You always have your core ethics. You
Speaker 1: always have your offense, you always have your defense, but
Speaker 1: there are gonna be times in which you gotta change.
Speaker 1: I believe bo Ryan would have won a national championship
Speaker 1: had he had a different way of playing the ball
Speaker 1: screen against uh Tias Jones and Duke. But they always
Speaker 1: kind of flat hedged and sunk and Tia Tias Jones
Speaker 1: hit jump shot after jump shot jump shot, and people
Speaker 1: can tell me, well, it's the officiating with Duke, Like, no,
Speaker 1: it wasn't. Tyas Jones just made shots because Wisconsin played
Speaker 1: true Pac line defense and unlike Virginia. Virginia plays Pac
Speaker 1: line principles, but they hard hedge ball screens. So that
Speaker 1: that was my conversation with Tony Bennett. And you can
Speaker 1: hear that conversation. It's entirety if you're downloaded part of
Speaker 1: the Doug Gottlip Show. All right, let's get to our
Speaker 1: guest of the week. His name is name five. He's
Speaker 1: longtime assistant Michigan State. It's also a dear friend of mine.
Speaker 1: Uh It was a tremendous player. Dad was a coach.
Speaker 1: Dad is a coach, and I just think his his
Speaker 1: story is a really really interesting one and it kind
Speaker 1: of tells the story a little bit about Michigan State
Speaker 1: basketball this year. Um. Okay, so let's let's start. Um.
Speaker 1: I always love to do this. You grew up playing
Speaker 1: basketball where? Well, like like, did you have a park?
Speaker 1: There was a gym? Like your your first basketball memory
Speaker 1: is where Larkston High School gym. My dad was high
Speaker 1: school coach, and I just go to practice every day
Speaker 1: and shoot on the side all day. Okay, So, uh
Speaker 1: did the side hoops have fan backboards? Did they have
Speaker 1: would backboards or regular glass backboards? I grew up on
Speaker 1: glass backboards. That's a nice that's a nice gym right there.
Speaker 1: To have side backboards that are nice glass, square, square backboards.
Speaker 1: What what would uh you need? Your dad obviously a
Speaker 1: longtime coach. I mean you even have a kid plays
Speaker 1: for you now, played for your dad. What's he like
Speaker 1: my dad? Yeah? As a coach, Well, he's nuts. He
Speaker 1: grew up in the post World War Two era where
Speaker 1: the heroes were General Patton, Hey guys and Howard Um.
Speaker 1: You know, the the the Armies and the Navy's got
Speaker 1: a lot of good athletes. Um, and so he was
Speaker 1: he his favorite coach was probably at the time coach Night,
Speaker 1: coach Bob Knight and so um, I wouldn't say he was.
Speaker 1: He didn't use a lot of follow language or are
Speaker 1: really yelling at people's faces, but he was. He was
Speaker 1: very structured, very organized, and he believed in playing with
Speaker 1: maximum effort every second you're out on the court. He
Speaker 1: always told me if I don't care what you play,
Speaker 1: I think he did care. But if you're gonna play,
Speaker 1: you're gonna do it your best, whether it's checkers or basketball.
Speaker 1: And and he held me to that. And my brothers, um,
Speaker 1: now your brother Duke and just see you no, um
Speaker 1: he not only he has better name than you, such
Speaker 1: a good name that that one. It's memorable, right. And
Speaker 1: he played in Michigan, and you know, growing up Doug
Speaker 1: and was like, you know like that the negative nicknames
Speaker 1: were like Doug slug or a Doug the little bug.
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, no, no, call me Dugan.
Speaker 1: Like there was a time when I was like, actually
Speaker 1: it's more Duke, go by Dugan. They're like, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's Dugan. Five. If you're not, you're not Dugan. Um,
Speaker 1: what uh what's it like to have it? Like? Was
Speaker 1: he a nice big my big brother Greg who's an
Speaker 1: assistant coach organ State. Um, he was, he was. He
Speaker 1: would vacillate between being an awesome big brother and a
Speaker 1: terrible big brother. I think sometimes I was the friends
Speaker 1: that he would keep by, like, Hey, we're gonna go
Speaker 1: meet at Jordan Elementry and shoot hoops. Meet us there.
Speaker 1: And then I go there and there literally be nobody
Speaker 1: there right just to get rid of me or lock
Speaker 1: me out of the house. Um pants me when we
Speaker 1: were in our our friends pool and throw my my
Speaker 1: shorts up on the roof and then invite other people over.
Speaker 1: So what was your big brother like? Rotten? And uh,
Speaker 1: because I'm sure there's young people listening, Um, I would
Speaker 1: say that probably until Dugan went off to college. He
Speaker 1: was six years older than I was. Uh, he was
Speaker 1: probably the worst big brother that that a little brother
Speaker 1: could have. And I was the baby Jeremy who's uh,
Speaker 1: we're all three years apart, so Jeremy's the middle child
Speaker 1: and and but Dugan was the worst big brother up
Speaker 1: until about his nineteenth birthday. Even then, he came home
Speaker 1: and during mid season and his freshman year at Michigan
Speaker 1: and we were out shoveling off the basketball court in
Speaker 1: our backyard. It was just a small court. We shoveled
Speaker 1: it off and I hit him in the lip on
Speaker 1: accident playing him one on one, and he pushed me
Speaker 1: down and rubbed my face in the snow. And I
Speaker 1: was probably about thirteen at the time. But um, there
Speaker 1: wasn't a day that I didn't plan to somehow make
Speaker 1: Dugan disappear in my in my in my youth. It's awesome. Um, well,
Speaker 1: if if Coach Night was your dad's hero, and it's
Speaker 1: interesting because I don't know if you know this. So
Speaker 1: my dad was a walk on in the house state,
Speaker 1: a JV player during the same here when Bob Knight
Speaker 1: was there, and um, they were kind of on again,
Speaker 1: off again friends. But he also looked up to Coach Night.
Speaker 1: And although Coach Night you didn't really recruit me, it
Speaker 1: wasn't really my dad never wanted me to play for him,
Speaker 1: not because of how he was, but more because of
Speaker 1: how he played. Like that wasn't But why didn't you
Speaker 1: can go play for him? Well, Dugan, Um, my dad
Speaker 1: played at Michigan. Um he was with Rudy tom Jonovich
Speaker 1: and just after Kassie Russell. But my dad played at
Speaker 1: Michigan and my dad played pro baseball with the Twins
Speaker 1: and then came back and was an assistant at Michigan. Ironically,
Speaker 1: he was on the bench when Michigan lost in and
Speaker 1: in the seventy six National Championship. UM. And so when
Speaker 1: Dugan was young, Dugan was born in seventy four, UM,
Speaker 1: he experienced Michigan basketball up close and personal. And so
Speaker 1: when he was young, four or five, six years old,
Speaker 1: until my dad stopped coaching at Michigan, he was he
Speaker 1: was those those were his heroes. So you know that
Speaker 1: was ingrained in him when he was really young, and
Speaker 1: we just we always went to Michigan football games, Michigan
Speaker 1: basketball games. My dad was good friends with Bill Freeder,
Speaker 1: and so I think it was just a foregone conclusion
Speaker 1: that Dugan was going to go to Michigan and there
Speaker 1: was never a doubt on on anybody else was exception
Speaker 1: to maybe Michigan State, maybe Stanford. UM, I don't think
Speaker 1: that Indiana recruited him very hard, if you want the truth. Okay,
Speaker 1: So then what about you, Uh, you're a big score
Speaker 1: in high school, right and UM, I'm getting and because
Speaker 1: of because you're the respect that your dad had, because
Speaker 1: of the because of your brother being a hell of
Speaker 1: a player, like it wasn't you were very heavily recruited.
Speaker 1: Why did you go to ee you? Well, it's funny
Speaker 1: because the very first VHS tape that I that we ever,
Speaker 1: that I ever watched. I remember getting our VCR when
Speaker 1: we're in uh Or Lady, but they used to have
Speaker 1: to press the button down. You used to have to
Speaker 1: hold the there was the the it was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know how you consider those buttons,
Speaker 1: but you actually had to press the button down right.
Speaker 1: The record button was always the last button you had
Speaker 1: to pressed down right. And then the remote control had
Speaker 1: a chord, so we did we did get one with
Speaker 1: a remote, but it had a court. Um. So, so
Speaker 1: the very first VHS tape that I watched was Michigan
Speaker 1: versus Indiana for the Big Tent Idol and this was
Speaker 1: Freeder versus Night. Um. I think Roy Tarpley was a senior,
Speaker 1: Steve Alford was a junior. But anyway, I just remember
Speaker 1: listening to Billy Packer and Brett Musburger talk about Bob
Speaker 1: Knight with such interest, and it was fascinating just how
Speaker 1: much they revered Coach Night and his personality and Steve
Speaker 1: Alford UM and Michigan ended up killing him, but it's
Speaker 1: stuck in my mind. And then came the movie Hoosiers
Speaker 1: and that representative everything that my hometown pretty much was
Speaker 1: small school, single school, UM, just me and my friends,
Speaker 1: just dream of winning a state championship. That was my dream,
Speaker 1: winning a state championship for my dad. And so you know,
Speaker 1: either way, I think that, Uh, Indiana started recruiting my
Speaker 1: sophomore year. Dan Docket's ironically was the first Indiana coach
Speaker 1: to start recruiting me. But it was just a dream
Speaker 1: of mine to uh, you know, when I was young,
Speaker 1: to just go play basketball at Indiana for Coach Night.
Speaker 1: And Coach Night I viewed as was similar to my dad.
Speaker 1: His offense, his defense, his principles. My dad talked about
Speaker 1: him a lot. UM. I felt like, you know, at
Speaker 1: an alternate universe, Dougan probably would have went and played
Speaker 1: for him too, if Michigan didn't exist. Because Coach Knight
Speaker 1: represented what what the game was to hard work, um championships, um,
Speaker 1: doing it right. You know, there wasn't a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of cheating going on in his program. It
Speaker 1: felt like we were just going to get an honest
Speaker 1: environment that was going to make you better. And that's
Speaker 1: what it That's ultimately what it was even when I
Speaker 1: went there. Okay, so you show up first day on
Speaker 1: campus at Indiana. What do you remember. Well, my roommate
Speaker 1: was Luke Wrecker and Kyle Hornsby from Louisiana. Kyle Hornsby
Speaker 1: was a well just Uh he was a country boy,
Speaker 1: and Luke Wrecker was was a sophomore. But the first
Speaker 1: thing that I saw was coach and night. Uh Silver Lincoln.
Speaker 1: It's the first thing I remember. And then uh moved
Speaker 1: into my apartment. And then we played Open Jim and
Speaker 1: I was fearless and and here I am a McDonald's
Speaker 1: all American thinking I'm really good and and uh, what
Speaker 1: made me good is that I understood the game. I
Speaker 1: felt like I was way advanced. And you know that
Speaker 1: as a son of the son of a coach, it's
Speaker 1: a blessing and a curse. You know, we are advanced,
Speaker 1: but then we think we know everything and we're stubborn. Um,
Speaker 1: but I've gotten where I was by playing hard, playing
Speaker 1: with effort, playing tough and soil. The first day of
Speaker 1: Open Jim, I ended up squaring off with a with
Speaker 1: a six eight two d and thirty five pounds, uh,
Speaker 1: twenty three year old named William Gladness. We never we
Speaker 1: nearly got him in Oklahoma State. I mean he was
Speaker 1: a junior college transfer. We nearly got him in Oklahoma State.
Speaker 1: We always like, we're like, man, we get William Gladness,
Speaker 1: will be all right? Yeah, and and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I was always thankful that guys broke it up before
Speaker 1: there were any constance prone But I oh I did
Speaker 1: was set a screen on him. Now will Is is
Speaker 1: who's who's passed away? But um, great guy. But interesting
Speaker 1: enough about will Is. When you'd set a back screen
Speaker 1: on him, you know, screen him from behind, you had
Speaker 1: to be careful because he had a bullet lodged in
Speaker 1: his spine. And so apparently I hit that bullet, hit
Speaker 1: something and turned around and he just said, gosh, that
Speaker 1: wasn't even as as dirty as I could be, will
Speaker 1: But uh he said, you hit my bullet. You hit
Speaker 1: my bullet, and and and uh so that was what
Speaker 1: I remember is my first day on campus, is the
Speaker 1: whole team ready to fight me out of the gate. Um,
Speaker 1: you guys, I mean, you guys had a pretty good team,
Speaker 1: right yet, Mike Lewis, you had Kirk Haystein. Um, we
Speaker 1: were loaded. We had a kind of talent. We just
Speaker 1: didn't defend it very well. We had first rounders. Luke
Speaker 1: Recker would have been a first rounder. He ended up
Speaker 1: transfer and as you remembered it, Arizona and then to Otowa.
Speaker 1: Lewis who is the all time assistant leader. Um A J. Guyton,
Speaker 1: who was a McDonald or who was who was an
Speaker 1: All American. Um, Kirk Hasten was a red shirt freshman
Speaker 1: my freshman year. We were a bit young. I mean
Speaker 1: Lewis Is Lewis and Guyton were older. But um, we
Speaker 1: just we we didn't have a group that that we
Speaker 1: didn't have a great team. We had a lot of
Speaker 1: good parts, we just didn't have a great team. And
Speaker 1: I think because, um, unfortunately, there were a lot of
Speaker 1: Uh there are a lot of agendas, not necessarily from
Speaker 1: the players, but from people who were attached to the
Speaker 1: players that prevented us from really being a great team. You. Um,
Speaker 1: you guys lost in two thousand of pepper Dye. And
Speaker 1: I know that not just because I can read history,
Speaker 1: but I was there. It was in Buffalo. We thought
Speaker 1: we were gonna play you, and um, I you know,
Speaker 1: like again, I only played against Indiana once. Here's my
Speaker 1: here I'll give you. I'll give you the all my
Speaker 1: Indiana stories I got, uh one. Charlie Miller stayed at
Speaker 1: my house for a summer, maybe two summers. He obviously
Speaker 1: proceeded you at I use for people don't remember. He's
Speaker 1: a wing, left handed wing from Miami, played for Frank
Speaker 1: Martin in high school and so he played with US
Speaker 1: in AU before he signed Indiana. And um, so I
Speaker 1: went to the was at the university. It was the
Speaker 1: under eighteen and under twenty one like University Games teams
Speaker 1: or whatever World Games team tryouts in Colorado Springs, and
Speaker 1: I met Brian Evans and he told the greatest, most
Speaker 1: unbelievable Bob Knight stories. I mean, just had a howling,
Speaker 1: cackling whatever. Um. Anyway, then my freshman year, we get
Speaker 1: ready to play Indiana at Notre Dame. And the year
Speaker 1: before Notre Dame had beaten Indiana in South Bend. And
Speaker 1: I think, don't hold me to this one, because I
Speaker 1: haven't looked at the besets. I think they hit something
Speaker 1: like fifteen threes, which at the time like even now
Speaker 1: as a ridiculous number, but the time was unheard of,
Speaker 1: and as you know, coach Knight was very It wasn't
Speaker 1: until Texas Tech and late in his career where he
Speaker 1: embraced the three point shot um. And so he basically
Speaker 1: thought it was bullshit basketball. And he told everybody, you know, basically,
Speaker 1: Notre Dame beat us on bullshit basketball. So we knew
Speaker 1: they were. He was gonna be pissed because he didn't
Speaker 1: forget a game. And uh, I, you had played Yukon
Speaker 1: and the championship of the Great Alaska Shootout and you
Speaker 1: can kicked the dog piss out of him, beat him
Speaker 1: by like forty right. So we go down and they
Speaker 1: hadn't played in like a week they got back from Alaska,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they practiced like five times a day. Right,
Speaker 1: you probably kicked them out of the locker rooms some
Speaker 1: ship like that. And we go down and the night
Speaker 1: before they had just put a new court down um
Speaker 1: in the arena, okay, and in what is an alumni
Speaker 1: hall or whatever, they they just put a new assembly all.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, there's two assembly halls, right, there's Illinois and
Speaker 1: and I you so assembly hall and so we go
Speaker 1: in and like, if you've been and I know it's
Speaker 1: been redone, this beautiful now. It wasn't beautiful then, but
Speaker 1: it was just it was gigantic. It was the biggest
Speaker 1: arena I had ever been in at that point in
Speaker 1: time in life. It's like our first road game ever.
Speaker 1: And the court was springing as hell and everybody is
Speaker 1: throwing down bam bam bam. We're like, man, we're gonna
Speaker 1: be good. And I was like, yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: we're gonna be that good. So the things I'll never
Speaker 1: forget about Coach night, um is you're warming up and
Speaker 1: everybody and you're looking down the other end and there's
Speaker 1: the candy striped pants and there's a damn and the
Speaker 1: band is playing. You're like, damn, I'm playing Indiana on
Speaker 1: National TV. Holy shit. And then out walks Bob Knight.
Speaker 1: And I had met him a couple of times before,
Speaker 1: but you forget he's a big gass dude, right. He
Speaker 1: was like I don't know, six three six four, and
Speaker 1: and he had that the red sweaters. And then you know,
Speaker 1: all the fans have the they want to be, want
Speaker 1: to be Bob Knights had the red sweaters and then
Speaker 1: he would always have a he never he never came
Speaker 1: out by himself. He already had a couple of dudes
Speaker 1: with him, right, he rolled deep for a for a coach. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he comes out and and like literally everybody stops,
Speaker 1: like we're in layup lines and dudes stop and look
Speaker 1: like there's coach night, you know, silver hair. He comes
Speaker 1: by and he shakes John Cloud's hands and go sit
Speaker 1: down whatever, and you're like, you know, like it was
Speaker 1: at Basketball Royalty at that time. So we're down, go ahead,
Speaker 1: go ahead, we're down half and I'll never forget like
Speaker 1: you're go running off the court and you go right
Speaker 1: by the band and they're playing the fight song right,
Speaker 1: and then the last part of the fight talking is
Speaker 1: ah you and like the whole place is shaking and
Speaker 1: the student section is going, don't comp out, don't come out,
Speaker 1: don't come out. And I remember going the locker room
Speaker 1: going like you know, guys, they say, we don't have
Speaker 1: to come out in the second half, like we're cool,
Speaker 1: we're good. So here, here's here's the here's here's here's
Speaker 1: the story. I tell you all the time. So, um,
Speaker 1: what was the big dude's name from Texas ship who's
Speaker 1: a junior at the Yes first time, huh Andre Paterson? Right?
Speaker 1: So um, we get our ass beat and I play Okay,
Speaker 1: we go down back just out bad. I roll into
Speaker 1: my dorm at Dylan Hall and I flip on ESPN
Speaker 1: and it's right about to hit like the Sports Center guest,
Speaker 1: then DNA, are you ready for Sports Center N? So
Speaker 1: in in somewhere in the second half, I had driven
Speaker 1: in and tried to shoot a floater over Andre Patterson.
Speaker 1: Part of it was it was probably a little bit
Speaker 1: of a weak floater. Part of it was it was
Speaker 1: at Indiana, so it's goaltending. I feel it wasn't called.
Speaker 1: And part of it is if you've been to Assembly Hall,
Speaker 1: you know they have like three rows of stands that
Speaker 1: are low, and then there's the wall, and then there's
Speaker 1: the second and then there's the second level, and then
Speaker 1: the third level was so far out there, I don't
Speaker 1: even know how you see the floor. He didn't block
Speaker 1: my shot. He caught my shot, and I felt like
Speaker 1: through it in the direction of John Cougar Mellencamp, who
Speaker 1: was sitting there and and and it was at insult
Speaker 1: to injury when he caught the ball and threw it
Speaker 1: out of bounds. He goes, no, right, know, I get
Speaker 1: back right remember, like grew up dreaming of like love
Speaker 1: Bob Knight, dreaming of playing maybe at four against Bob Knight.
Speaker 1: My dad has notes, copious notes from West point of
Speaker 1: going to his you know, and telling stories about the US.
Speaker 1: His jump shot was called the blue dart when he
Speaker 1: played at Ohio State, Like I know everything about Bob Knight.
Speaker 1: And we get an as we catch an ass with
Speaker 1: and by like forty at IU and are you ready
Speaker 1: for sports? Enter Dan, Dan, Dan, No, And there's my shot.
Speaker 1: There's my flow. Do you see forty four from Notre
Speaker 1: Dame Gottlieb and Andre Patterson's face laughing as he throws
Speaker 1: a shot in the direction that that's my US story. Anyway,
Speaker 1: go ahead, you're the lead. I was leading. I was lead.
Speaker 1: They did not bury the lead. Anyway. You're saying about
Speaker 1: coach Knight, the thing, the thing that stuck out about you.
Speaker 1: You mentioned how big he is, and when I was well,
Speaker 1: I committed to Indiana, okay, and then he came up
Speaker 1: to visit me sometime late fall and were still in
Speaker 1: football season, just may have just finished. But we're making
Speaker 1: the transition to basketball season. But I was a football
Speaker 1: player too, and it's probably my first love. But I
Speaker 1: had interest in playing QB at Indiana. Cam Cameron was
Speaker 1: the coach at the time, and I said, coach, you
Speaker 1: know I'm coming. Just back then, if you signed in
Speaker 1: the November early period, you um, I couldn't play football,
Speaker 1: that fault. But if you signed in the late period,
Speaker 1: then you could. Weird rule. But I said, I'd like
Speaker 1: to sign in the spring so I have an option
Speaker 1: to playing football. And there was just dead silence. He
Speaker 1: looked at the ground, he looked up. He pulled up
Speaker 1: as he always wore elastic band pants. I remember noticing that.
Speaker 1: But he pulled up a chair and he lifted his
Speaker 1: pant leg up to his knee and he said, you
Speaker 1: see these pants. You see this lake? Yeah, yeah, coach,
Speaker 1: you see this calf. Now that's a damn football cast.
Speaker 1: I'm a football player. This is a football leg. I
Speaker 1: look at your scrawny legs, I said, yep. I said,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what you come to Indiana. You're coming
Speaker 1: to play basketball, and that's it. And I looked at
Speaker 1: my dad, who was in the athletic director by coach
Speaker 1: at the time, he didn't have much to say, kind
Speaker 1: of kind of left me out to dry. I said, Okay,
Speaker 1: sounds good, coach, So needless to say, I signed in
Speaker 1: the early November signing period. But I remember that leg
Speaker 1: that he was definitely that the leg of a tight end,
Speaker 1: maybe a defensive tackle, but he was a big fellow.
Speaker 1: Um so you beat by Pepperdine. That was his last
Speaker 1: game as head coach. What what was it like to
Speaker 1: be a what was like to be a player during
Speaker 1: what was just a crazy turbulent time at IU, Because again,
Speaker 1: like the lens we look at Coach Night now is
Speaker 1: so different than the various lenses of his time at Indiana,
Speaker 1: like eighties, early nineties, like he would have run for
Speaker 1: governor unopposed even an exactly but Indiana, I mean, you
Speaker 1: would like nine outside of Purdue fans, like of people
Speaker 1: are going to vote for for for Coach Night. Obviously
Speaker 1: it wasn't he wasn't viewed the same. But like you
Speaker 1: guys still had good players, and you still had good teams.
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, the the Neil Read
Speaker 1: video appears and and the interviews and all that stuff
Speaker 1: that that went bad what was that? What do you
Speaker 1: remember about that time? Well, I always tell people now,
Speaker 1: you know, mostly when you catch Coach Night in his
Speaker 1: worst moments, they're usually in a game, and that's that's
Speaker 1: the big stage, but behind the scene. And I'd say
Speaker 1: for the most part, being very complimentary and practice pretty
Speaker 1: easy to work with. In practice, his frustration was all
Speaker 1: about effort. When when there was a problem, it was
Speaker 1: usually about effort. It wasn't about a turnover, a miss shot. Ah,
Speaker 1: it wasn't about anything that that you could control. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you couldn't control. And so mostly complimentary, but they put
Speaker 1: the zero tolerance on them. Okay, in the spring they
Speaker 1: as in the administration. I don't have any problem with that.
Speaker 1: You know, if you've got a problem with somebody, you
Speaker 1: gotta you gotta deal with it the way you see fit.
Speaker 1: And I was it fair enough? Fair? I don't know,
Speaker 1: but they did. So we roll into early September and
Speaker 1: I remember on the I woke up Sunday. I woke
Speaker 1: up Sunday morning and my roommate had called and he said, hey,
Speaker 1: they're gonna fire Coach Night. So this was after he
Speaker 1: grabbed a student's arm and addressed told him to calm,
Speaker 1: Mr Knighter Coach Night, but um, so we drove up
Speaker 1: in Indianapolis for the trustee meeting. President um Brand announced
Speaker 1: that he was firing him. And it was funny because
Speaker 1: we drove back to Bloomington's and Edward Or came over
Speaker 1: to our house from Espnum met with us and he
Speaker 1: can't remember any cats. I still to this day talked
Speaker 1: to Andy Katz about that day. Andy Kats was there,
Speaker 1: Um there were just that there were so many things,
Speaker 1: and then the students march on the President's house at
Speaker 1: the time, and h I walked over that to that
Speaker 1: just to see what was going on, and uh, it was.
Speaker 1: It was chaos. I mean you'd think there was a
Speaker 1: two going on. And to see the passion and the
Speaker 1: anger and the frustration that that people had for for
Speaker 1: this this figure. Um it was incredible. And I know
Speaker 1: myself and my teammates. I remember being in the locker
Speaker 1: room Jared Jeffreys Ah Sunday night when Coach Knight came
Speaker 1: back thanked Coach Night, and I remember Coach Night going
Speaker 1: into the to them a little area outside the locker
Speaker 1: room and overheard him tell a friend of his that
Speaker 1: he couldn't face us as in, I can't do this.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to have to face these guys.
Speaker 1: I don't want to leave him. And you saw you're
Speaker 1: able to see Coach Night vulnerable, able to see how
Speaker 1: much we mattered, how much the school mattered, and right
Speaker 1: or wrong, it was his time he left. Um but
Speaker 1: it was pretty um it was pretty emotional because a
Speaker 1: lot of us had had dreamed of growing up and
Speaker 1: playing for that man, whether it's Indian or not, that
Speaker 1: was my dream. And I was upset, I was frustrated,
Speaker 1: but um we uh it was a pretty uh surreal
Speaker 1: time for a bunch of eighteen to two year old
Speaker 1: kids that didn't know which end was up anyway. Okay,
Speaker 1: so what what happened was there? Did you guys get together?
Speaker 1: Because because um, I just think that the leadership of
Speaker 1: that moment is is fascinating and um like, robviously it
Speaker 1: was it was today you guys would all be in
Speaker 1: the transfer portal, but that it wasn't that way then
Speaker 1: and somebody had to have dudes over. Like I I
Speaker 1: heard a story Brian Evans. I never remember that. I
Speaker 1: never forget the story that, uh, you know, one year
Speaker 1: he kicked him out He would always kick you guys
Speaker 1: out of locker room, put all your ship in the
Speaker 1: hallway right and you wouldn't have they wouldn't have practice,
Speaker 1: but you're supposed to run practice on your own own.
Speaker 1: And his car and his wife would come down and
Speaker 1: talk to Coach Knight loves you guys like it was
Speaker 1: like a It was. It was just one of the
Speaker 1: things that he would do. But that sometimes in order
Speaker 1: to get away, you know, they go they go to
Speaker 1: a manager's house and all the players would hang out together,
Speaker 1: and they there was some tape and you tell me
Speaker 1: if there's real, there's some tape of Coach Night getting
Speaker 1: run over in practice where you know, you're transitioning from
Speaker 1: offense to defense, and he forgot and he got caught
Speaker 1: up in the like the whitewash, and and he's like, man,
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, we'd have a bad day. We go
Speaker 1: to a manager's house and we watched that tape over
Speaker 1: and over and over again him getting run over and
Speaker 1: laugh our ass off. So so what do you remember about, Like,
Speaker 1: how did you because you guys stayed together and you
Speaker 1: end up going to a final four, I know what,
Speaker 1: everybody didn't stay. How did it how did it play out? Well,
Speaker 1: I was transferred back to Michigan State and I went
Speaker 1: over to coach Knights maybe Monday, so we got fired
Speaker 1: on September tenth, so probably September eleven or twelve. I
Speaker 1: remember being in his kitchen and just saying, coach, look
Speaker 1: of UM, you know, if if, if they're not keeping
Speaker 1: the rest of the staff, then then I'm going to
Speaker 1: go because I don't want to play for a new
Speaker 1: staff when we've heard rumors of different coaches coming in
Speaker 1: and um, you know, I wasn't sure what was going
Speaker 1: to happen with the rest of the team in terms
Speaker 1: of who's coming and gone. We'd all a lot of
Speaker 1: us said we were going to transfer. I think some
Speaker 1: of them were bluff and I at the time wasn't
Speaker 1: because I wanted I was okay, I was at piece
Speaker 1: with coach Knight being removed, but I didn't want to
Speaker 1: lose the rest of the staff, that being Mike Davis
Speaker 1: and John Treeloor. Pat Pat Knight was the other assistant.
Speaker 1: I assumed he was leaving. UM, so coach Knight seemed
Speaker 1: to think that, um, they weren't going to retain Mike
Speaker 1: Davis or who's at University Detroit now or John treelo
Speaker 1: Or who's a scout with Phoenix UM coach, and I
Speaker 1: didn't think they were going to retain them either, so
Speaker 1: they said, well, help me transfer. And it's funny because
Speaker 1: there's so many coaches that come up that have them
Speaker 1: up over the years that coach Night actually reached out
Speaker 1: to and uh, but I said, can you help me transfer?
Speaker 1: And he said you sure this is what you want
Speaker 1: to do? And I said, yeah, I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be a part of a new staff and
Speaker 1: I'm not sure who's who's going to stay, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter, you know, I don't want to be
Speaker 1: here party. I don't want to change things. So you know,
Speaker 1: I went back. I left right away and announced I
Speaker 1: was transferred. Meanwhile, Jared Jefferies comes up to me and says, well, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm hearing that they might keep Mike Davis,
Speaker 1: John True and coach Davis and coach Trielor and let
Speaker 1: them do an interim just like oh Man. So a
Speaker 1: long story short, I decided I was going to stay,
Speaker 1: and Kirk Hasten stayed and Jared Jefferies was a freshman
Speaker 1: that year. UM Tom Coverdale. We had a we had
Speaker 1: a really good core group that you know, over the
Speaker 1: course of two years, became a damn good team even
Speaker 1: though haste and left. It was funny because Hasten was
Speaker 1: really instrumental in me staying and and not that I mattered.
Speaker 1: I averaged five points a game, but um, you know,
Speaker 1: I was just, I guess a vet and they needed
Speaker 1: some vets. But Hasten went pro after that year, and
Speaker 1: Haston was the one that talked me into staying and
Speaker 1: I said, we're gonna win a national championship in the
Speaker 1: next two years. Since when Haston left, I didn't speak
Speaker 1: to him for a whole summer. But I guess looking back,
Speaker 1: you've got a chance to be drafted. I think it
Speaker 1: was fifteen or sixteen to the Charlotte Hornets. Probably should
Speaker 1: have left, but um, yeah, we we had a good
Speaker 1: court group. Jared Jefferies covered Oh Kyle Hornsby, Um Jared Otle,
Speaker 1: we were. We were. I don't have any stories like
Speaker 1: like Brian Evans does about rallying over the our coach
Speaker 1: getting run over, but um, I do think that, uh
Speaker 1: you know, we we rallied on Coach Night's behalf and
Speaker 1: because he was still important to us and still is.
Speaker 1: And you combine that with with Coach Davis and John
Speaker 1: tree Lor putting us in positions to succeed. It was
Speaker 1: it was a great recipe. But the other thing it was,
Speaker 1: it was it was some guys that were committed, committed
Speaker 1: to winning, committed to Indiana. If you could the three
Speaker 1: things you mean, give me three things that Coach Night
Speaker 1: taught that you believe into this day. You know what?
Speaker 1: I think that even as I worked for coaches. Oh,
Speaker 1: the one thing you can't allow as a coach is
Speaker 1: is UM is a bad practice and a bad practice
Speaker 1: from a team. But it usually starts from somewhere. Does
Speaker 1: it start from your leadership amongst your players, does it
Speaker 1: start from a player or does it start where? Where
Speaker 1: does it stem from? And Coach Knight would never let up.
Speaker 1: It was a relentless pursuit of of excellence. And if
Speaker 1: there was a bad practice from a player UM, he
Speaker 1: dealt with it. He dealt with it in a way
Speaker 1: that that would typically make sure that it wouldn't happen again.
Speaker 1: And uh so there was no let up. And I
Speaker 1: remember being in practice and it was like a trance
Speaker 1: because you had to be focused. You had to be intense,
Speaker 1: you had to know what you were doing. And when
Speaker 1: practice ended, it was it wasn't relief, but it was
Speaker 1: what did I just do for the last two hours?
Speaker 1: Because of that? You know, for for a one or
Speaker 1: eighteen year old to maintain focus for for that two hours,
Speaker 1: for that long period of time is I don't think
Speaker 1: it could happen today, and it barely could happen back
Speaker 1: when I played in the early to late nineties, early
Speaker 1: two thousand's. Yeah, it's interesting because we used to our
Speaker 1: practices were long and I'll never forget so the old
Speaker 1: GALLAGHERI but used to have a clock, uh in up
Speaker 1: you know, behind the stands in one of the end zones.
Speaker 1: And remember this is a gym, it's not really an arena,
Speaker 1: but it used to be a clock. And guys would
Speaker 1: you know, they're huffing and puff and they'd look up
Speaker 1: and we didn't. We didn't. We didn't condition, you know,
Speaker 1: coaches thing. You know occasionally during Christmas break we do
Speaker 1: some we do some running, and we do running as punishment,
Speaker 1: but we never did conditioning. Right when I was at
Speaker 1: that Notre Dame, we can, uh, I thought John McLeod
Speaker 1: an interesting way of doing conditioning. He had four quarters
Speaker 1: of practice and after at the end of every quarter
Speaker 1: of practice you would do a conditioning drill or two
Speaker 1: and then get water. That's how he did it, whereas
Speaker 1: Coach Sutton like, we never did any conditioning. And his
Speaker 1: whole thing was like, you can make it through my practice.
Speaker 1: You can make it through a game. And and I
Speaker 1: I never yet like you'd be on your shorts and
Speaker 1: guys that start looking up and we would. Part of
Speaker 1: the problem was we had a bunch of and I
Speaker 1: think you guys are the same thing. We had a
Speaker 1: bunch of smartasses. And you know, you get to like
Speaker 1: two and a half three hours and be like le
Speaker 1: Tony rule right and uh and and coach would it
Speaker 1: would it would without any quay would happen a couple
Speaker 1: of times the year where he got he'd tell late
Speaker 1: Pat Noise, one of the guys, who's snake who died
Speaker 1: in playing crops? He got snake. You go up there,
Speaker 1: you cover up that clock. You got a bunch of
Speaker 1: clock watchers here, you got a bunch of clock But
Speaker 1: we came here to work. We came. It is the
Speaker 1: hardest thing you're gonna do when live, you cover up
Speaker 1: that damn clock, and sure enough there'd be like a
Speaker 1: white sheet over the clock, and guys are trying to
Speaker 1: like look through the white sheet, like, man, I think
Speaker 1: we've been here three hours. Manun this we gotta get
Speaker 1: out of here, right. But it's it's really amazing because
Speaker 1: now if and I don't know what you and and
Speaker 1: we used to make fun of of Kansas because Kansas,
Speaker 1: you know, they would dial back their practice a bunch
Speaker 1: that was Roy Williams thing was like fresh legs. Man,
Speaker 1: we go, they go like forty five minutes an hour
Speaker 1: when they get to February and coach, you wouldn't have
Speaker 1: any of that ship. And uh, but now I do
Speaker 1: think you need you're better off going twice a day
Speaker 1: for an hour and fifteen hour and a half just
Speaker 1: because guy's attention spans aren't dead long, let alone coaches
Speaker 1: attention spans aren't dead long. Well, that's right, and I'd
Speaker 1: say this too. There's a lot more for head coaches
Speaker 1: to have to do now than than there was. And
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's recruiting alumni media. Um, oh, and
Speaker 1: don't forget about your own family. Um. You just wonder
Speaker 1: how how a guy like coaches or coach k Uh
Speaker 1: processes things throughout it out to day. I mean, um,
Speaker 1: but I'd say the other the other thing that um
Speaker 1: that I won't forget is we would always wonder what
Speaker 1: kind of mood um coach Night was in each day.
Speaker 1: It always varied and it could be there were so
Speaker 1: many different spots on the on the spectrum that he
Speaker 1: could be. But being in this business now, I think
Speaker 1: it was just his way of of not allowing us
Speaker 1: to be comfortable and finding things too to keep us
Speaker 1: on our toes, which isn't out of the ordinary in
Speaker 1: in um sports or the working world, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I think good bosses find ways to keep people motivated
Speaker 1: without driving them away, and those that understand that get better.
Speaker 1: Those that don't look for excuses. Um. But there there
Speaker 1: were so many different personalities. When you talk about split
Speaker 1: split personality, it just multiple splits. But I think looking back,
Speaker 1: it's probably you know, the the old method to his madness.
Speaker 1: And then the third thing was a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I mean when you think of Coach Night, you think
Speaker 1: of motion offense, right, I think people do, but there
Speaker 1: was differently different types of motion. Right you guys would
Speaker 1: have you know, you'd have the baseline runner, you'd have
Speaker 1: the triangle right. There was a couple of different times
Speaker 1: go ahead. I think you know, we didn't have out
Speaker 1: of bounds plays either, just guys figured it out. But
Speaker 1: the attention to detail on the defensive end, I think
Speaker 1: where Coach Night was was his best. And I think
Speaker 1: the motion was just a toy. I mean, motion allowed
Speaker 1: him to coach defense more. And you know, I argue
Speaker 1: with coaches oh all the time, you know, whenever he
Speaker 1: talks about how they used to whip us. And I said, now,
Speaker 1: keep in mind, coach I was for and for against
Speaker 1: Michigan State while I was Indiana at Indiana. And he'll
Speaker 1: even make the comment, well, you know, you guys, you
Speaker 1: guys were motion and you were hard to prepare for.
Speaker 1: But you guys, did you guys prepare that much on defense?
Speaker 1: And I said, coach, there's a reason why we beat you,
Speaker 1: the mighty Michigan State. I mean, and and that's because
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty similar to what we do here. But
Speaker 1: I'd say that he doesn't get enough credit. Coach Night
Speaker 1: doesn't get enough credit for his defensive preparation and the
Speaker 1: way his teams defended. Now in his later years, they struggle.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of turnover and players and I don't
Speaker 1: think he was getting the players that he really he
Speaker 1: needed to. But the defense is something that's underrated as
Speaker 1: as I look back on coaches career. Okay, so so
Speaker 1: we we did, I guess for spaceline. We did post
Speaker 1: a post double. We worked on we that we call it,
Speaker 1: you know, ceiling h We would always we would seal
Speaker 1: off the lane you drove baseline and come over and
Speaker 1: help and take a chart and trapped that and then
Speaker 1: whoever was guarding the ball, you were the you were
Speaker 1: the rotate man, rotate man, or you were the flyer, right,
Speaker 1: and we work on you know, you know, scrambled drill
Speaker 1: and out of a double, out of a double team
Speaker 1: in the low post when the ball's reversed, scramble as well.
Speaker 1: But I'll never forget again. One of my first practice
Speaker 1: of oaklahom State, Um, I I said, coach, um, which
Speaker 1: which way we forced him? And he's like, what do
Speaker 1: you mean? I was like, well, we forcing baseline before
Speaker 1: the middle. It was like neither like noral coach like,
Speaker 1: where's the help? He's like college man guard his man.
Speaker 1: I was like all right, coach, that's great. But if
Speaker 1: he happens to go by me, which way would you
Speaker 1: prefer he goes by me, to the baseline or to
Speaker 1: the middle. Was like, neither of you. He goes by you.
Speaker 1: The only places you're going to sitting next to me
Speaker 1: and help me coach, right, it was. It was a
Speaker 1: little simpler then, right, Like we did have in bounced
Speaker 1: placement and and I talked about this mile si'mon enjoying
Speaker 1: enjoined me last week in the pot and he was like, dude,
Speaker 1: we had three plays like Luke never brought up a
Speaker 1: white board, Coach Sutton never drew on a white board
Speaker 1: or whatever. I understand, But um, you guys did help
Speaker 1: to the middle, right was it was the help from
Speaker 1: the middle of the help from the because like the
Speaker 1: players kind of and the assistant coach like, well, what
Speaker 1: coach really wants is like you don't want you, but
Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna help from the baseline. It was
Speaker 1: almost like whispering, you know, um what what was the
Speaker 1: general defensive philosophy that was so good? Baseline? It was
Speaker 1: baseline And it was funny because it just had changed
Speaker 1: right around that era. To me, um, a lot of
Speaker 1: it was metal and then it just had changed to baseline,
Speaker 1: probably somewhere in the mid nineties or I'm sorry, late
Speaker 1: eighties and early nineties. Um, before that, I don't think
Speaker 1: there was defense. And I listened to my dad talked
Speaker 1: about when he played in the seventies, Um said, we
Speaker 1: didn't We didn't have defensive principles. Guard your man and
Speaker 1: do a good job. That was that was that he's
Speaker 1: sting right there. Uh, and uh, I want you to
Speaker 1: turn his ass to the glass. Excuse me. And we're
Speaker 1: in Arkansas and we had the triplets now Marvin delf
Speaker 1: and Alvin Robinson, and and we would we we they
Speaker 1: would get into you when you cross mid court, and
Speaker 1: we wanted to make that point guard turn his ass
Speaker 1: to the glass. Brother, you can guard like that. You
Speaker 1: can play for me anyway. Yeah, there was no. There
Speaker 1: wasn't anything like, hey, how are we playing this ball screen?
Speaker 1: Like we're gonna you know who we're gonna We're gonna
Speaker 1: ice it, we're gonna trave it like. No, you guard
Speaker 1: your man? Okay, score, Yes, that's generally good. That's good
Speaker 1: coaching right there. You know what, I always give my
Speaker 1: dad crap about going against Rick Mount, who he denies
Speaker 1: he had to guard him. But Rick Mount got fifty
Speaker 1: two against him against Michigan and beat him. And uh,
Speaker 1: that's without that's without three point the three point shot.
Speaker 1: How does that happen? How does that happen? How does
Speaker 1: the guy score fifty two points without the three point
Speaker 1: shot in the Have you ever seen Rick Mount shooting basketball? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: But but do you think Rick Mount would do it
Speaker 1: do it in today's game? Yeah? See, I don't. And
Speaker 1: that's not to say that Rick Mount wasn't incredible, but
Speaker 1: I mean the defense today is a lot different. I'd
Speaker 1: agree that. Listen. I remember going to Final four's and
Speaker 1: Rick Mount would do shooting clinics and I was like, Dad,
Speaker 1: does he ever miss? And He's like, nope, not mean
Speaker 1: it was I was unbelievable. And then you had in
Speaker 1: the three point line. Okay, So, uh, what do you
Speaker 1: remember about the Final four playing in it? Well? I
Speaker 1: remember the flag. Okay, this was a year at nine
Speaker 1: eleven and it's two thousand and two, and I remember
Speaker 1: the flag okay, and it was it was a lot bigger.
Speaker 1: That's the flag that's flying on the World Trade Center
Speaker 1: near the World Trade Center and it had the burn
Speaker 1: marks and you could smell it, and they had the
Speaker 1: firefighters and policemen that were at ground zero, and um,
Speaker 1: it was it was as powerful as as being in
Speaker 1: the presence of of of Coach Night or it was
Speaker 1: just it was. It was an incredible rush and otherwise
Speaker 1: and we were there. We were there to win the
Speaker 1: game the games and and again it's for for for
Speaker 1: guys that we had a lot of juniors and seniors. Um,
Speaker 1: the intensity, the focus there there, there wouldn't aside from
Speaker 1: my kids being born, there's not a better moment. There's
Speaker 1: not a bigger rush, There's not a bigger um a
Speaker 1: better time. You know that the eighteen to twenties. You
Speaker 1: always hear people tell stories, the older people about the
Speaker 1: good old days. You know, my grandpa passed away, but
Speaker 1: his eighteen nineteen twenties, World War Two, Normandy other Grandpa, Philippines.
Speaker 1: You know, just the time when when you were young,
Speaker 1: you were you were out from under the umbrella of
Speaker 1: your parents and it was just an incredible time. In
Speaker 1: the Final four it was in Atlanta that that year,
Speaker 1: and you know, there are a lot of great stories
Speaker 1: that came from it. But ultimately Doug I think you
Speaker 1: remember the smiles that put on people's faces. And I
Speaker 1: don't remember much from the games, um, but the smiles
Speaker 1: that we put on people's faces, especially Indiana, that it
Speaker 1: that was real. From the coach night firing, Um, we
Speaker 1: gave the people from a sports perspective, from a basketball perspective,
Speaker 1: something to smile about. We probably weren't supposed to be there.
Speaker 1: I think we were a four seed that year. We
Speaker 1: beat Duke who had eight first rounders. Um, that's well,
Speaker 1: I think it's insane. Yeah. I don't know they had
Speaker 1: eight first rounders. We had one CB A draft pick
Speaker 1: that was me. So I guess you could say we
Speaker 1: have one first rounder, right yeah, c b A Yeah. Listen,
Speaker 1: I was a usb L number I was the first.
Speaker 1: I was the first overall pick of the usb L.
Speaker 1: What team Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Oklahoma storm in Oklahoma number one.
Speaker 1: We're all pick a lot of fighting for that pick.
Speaker 1: They traded up. There's at least one back that was exchanged. Huh.
Speaker 1: You and Chris Weber same thing in common? Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: well first round picks. Um, but you know you just
Speaker 1: you see those smiles and just an incredible time. Okay,
Speaker 1: So how about this one. Um, you you did fix
Speaker 1: your shot or your the like look, you had a
Speaker 1: little bit of the same thing I had, only you
Speaker 1: fixed it. By the end of your college career, I
Speaker 1: couldn't write like you were a big score Mr. Basketball,
Speaker 1: State of Michigan. Everybody wanted you. And then you couldn't
Speaker 1: make a shot in college until your senior year when um, again,
Speaker 1: like now you would probably shoot twice as many threes,
Speaker 1: but you became nearly three point shooter and you actually
Speaker 1: became a threat. How did you? How did you fix it?
Speaker 1: You know what? There there's a ton of variables that
Speaker 1: go into that, But I think I first had to
Speaker 1: understand a couple of things. One of the physiology of it.
Speaker 1: What's happening to I mean I Mike Davis, one of
Speaker 1: my favorite people on Earth, took over for Coach Night
Speaker 1: when he was fired. UM coach and Act Detroit used
Speaker 1: to call me quarter till and quarter till just meant
Speaker 1: when the lights turned on. I was great until the
Speaker 1: lights turned on and it was game time. Not out
Speaker 1: of the ordinary for a young player and a j
Speaker 1: Guyton used to call me the practice all Americans says,
Speaker 1: I was the best, best Pat practice player in the country,
Speaker 1: and then the lights turned on, and you know what,
Speaker 1: it's ultimately it Ultimately it's it's choking. You're choking. I
Speaker 1: like to look at it as as overcaring and put
Speaker 1: too much pressure on myself, but to understand the physiology component,
Speaker 1: like what is happening to your body? Um, I would
Speaker 1: find myself so worked up before the game, so nervous
Speaker 1: about ah not doing what I was capable of doing,
Speaker 1: so frustrated, so anxious that I would be exhausted before
Speaker 1: the game, and you know, it would just manifest itself
Speaker 1: into everything would be dribbling, would be anything that involved
Speaker 1: the small muscles that the little muscles in your your fingers,
Speaker 1: your arms, anything that would would affect the small muscles,
Speaker 1: the finesse muscles, similar to what a what would affect
Speaker 1: a pitcher or quarterback, you know, the big muscle things
Speaker 1: like running and and staying in a defensive stance. And
Speaker 1: it didn't involve the finesse part of it. I was fine,
Speaker 1: but it was small things, and so now what did
Speaker 1: I do to change it? My senior guy, I had
Speaker 1: always worked on my shot. I'd always worked on my
Speaker 1: game a lot, a lot of shots a lot of
Speaker 1: time outside of practice. UM, you know, I think it.
Speaker 1: I'd like to say I just stopped caring, but I
Speaker 1: didn't stop caring. UM. I just think that, Uh, you
Speaker 1: never know when it's going to click, and you've got
Speaker 1: to put in the work. But it just finally clicked.
Speaker 1: And I think part of it was, UM, just better perspective,
Speaker 1: just having better perspective that The other part was I'd
Speaker 1: seen every psychologist talked to, every coach, talked to every um,
Speaker 1: the person you could think of to try to try
Speaker 1: to gain that that perspective. But I think ultimately it
Speaker 1: was just UM, the pressure went away after I decided
Speaker 1: that the game was important, but it wasn't my life
Speaker 1: and it didn't define me. And there were breathing techniques
Speaker 1: and there were different things that you could do, UM,
Speaker 1: but it didn't define me. And how how often you've
Speaker 1: been a coach now for your entire professional life, you know,
Speaker 1: you did one year of hope and then how often
Speaker 1: do you see this occurring where you have guys with
Speaker 1: what I think the layman would term a performance anxiety.
Speaker 1: I would say that everybody has some some some degree
Speaker 1: of it. And the best example I can give you
Speaker 1: is something that I know you struggled with, and that
Speaker 1: was that was free throws. And so if you take
Speaker 1: somebody in the game at the free throw line versus
Speaker 1: what they're shooting practice, it always is different. It's always
Speaker 1: different with that. My deal was so I take quick,
Speaker 1: take quick, kind of psychoic. Sorry interrupt um. So it's
Speaker 1: mine started to manifest itself in high school, very late
Speaker 1: at the free throw line and I was a big
Speaker 1: score and I never forget. We were playing at the
Speaker 1: Pond and Anaheim which is now the Honda Center, playing Domingus,
Speaker 1: who I lost to my junior year and my senior
Speaker 1: they were loaded Tayshaun Prince and Tommy Prince. Tashaw was
Speaker 1: just like a freshman Tommy Prince and Kenny Bruner like
Speaker 1: they had a squad. And I remember getting to the
Speaker 1: free throw line in the Pond, and I had always
Speaker 1: been like the end of the game, hold the ball,
Speaker 1: get fouled, make free throws right, and like I just
Speaker 1: all of a sudden felt off. I felt like this
Speaker 1: is not where I'm supposed to be. And then I
Speaker 1: went to Notre Dame and I was a hundred and
Speaker 1: sixty pounds and I mean I as cocky as ship
Speaker 1: like I was, I'm gonna be starting point guard, and um,
Speaker 1: we started like lifting and we were, you know, taking
Speaker 1: it back then CREA team was big whatever and I
Speaker 1: don't know what waterway or whatever. By the time we
Speaker 1: got to our first game, I was won seventy seven
Speaker 1: and I was yoked right man muscles nineteen yoked, But
Speaker 1: I was. I felt like my body was tight, and
Speaker 1: I felt like I felt heavier. And suddenly I went
Speaker 1: from being able to dunk to like, all right, now
Speaker 1: I'm like Nick in the rim and and that hurt man.
Speaker 1: And then I was a little bit you know, you
Speaker 1: you know, your freshman year, like I was a little
Speaker 1: lost offensively. Now for me, the free throw thing became
Speaker 1: kind of the It wasn't until I got really to
Speaker 1: to Oklahoma State where it manifests itself to any shooting
Speaker 1: where I just had a fear of failure and so
Speaker 1: I wouldn't shoot and I would um but um, but
Speaker 1: I also remember, um, I remember like I could do
Speaker 1: but I was the opposite. I could do anything on
Speaker 1: a basketball court. I just couldn't get myself to actually
Speaker 1: shoot like I can normally shoot, you know, and uh
Speaker 1: and then it become like a self fulfilling prophecy where
Speaker 1: I wouldn't believe it was gonna go in, so wouldn't
Speaker 1: go in, and so you take it and it would
Speaker 1: look bad shooting. It would get worse than you feel bad,
Speaker 1: and it was it was really. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know how you feel about your first three years in college.
Speaker 1: Like I've never shown my my son the tape of
Speaker 1: me playing college because I'm so embarrassed by how people
Speaker 1: guarded me, because I'm like, of course I can shoot,
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean, Um, it's so hard.
Speaker 1: And I was, I was so as good as I was.
Speaker 1: And I also had a coach I didn't know how
Speaker 1: to coach me, like I love Eddie Suddon, but he
Speaker 1: didn't understand what was going on with me mentally, where
Speaker 1: I just needed somebody to go like, hey, dude, you
Speaker 1: miss it, don't worry about it, you're not taking bad shots.
Speaker 1: Get your asks back on defense. But instead he take
Speaker 1: me out, and then I I never wanted to come out.
Speaker 1: I thought I felt like coming out of a game
Speaker 1: was punishment, and so I know I would just like ship,
Speaker 1: if I don't shoot, then he's not gonna take me
Speaker 1: out and then I'm good, whereas all the guys on
Speaker 1: my team are like, shit, chake the shock you missed,
Speaker 1: don't worry about. It's gonna put you back in. And
Speaker 1: I just couldn't get over that mental hurdle. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: it is. It's a case of just you're overcaring. And
Speaker 1: and it's funny because mine started and I it's cool too.
Speaker 1: And it started at the free throw line. I shot
Speaker 1: an air ball and then next thing I know, um
Speaker 1: the crowd yell and air ball and whatever. So then
Speaker 1: I got to the point wherever you do, don't airball.
Speaker 1: So then I'm just hoping and praying it hits the rim.
Speaker 1: As the year went on, and it was my sophomore year,
Speaker 1: and we lost a chance at the state championship because
Speaker 1: of it. And you know, if I could pinpoint exactly why,
Speaker 1: and I could look back in like six and seventh
Speaker 1: grade and say, gosh, I could make breeze rolls better
Speaker 1: than I could in college in seventh grade, and and
Speaker 1: so you know, the pressure gets to everybody. There's varying degrees.
Speaker 1: I kind of look at it as three types, you know,
Speaker 1: so the so the worst one in baseball is an
Speaker 1: easy one to look to, UM would be the Steve
Speaker 1: Sachs or the Chuck Chuck nob Blocker. The guy that's
Speaker 1: going through it right now is the picture John Lester
Speaker 1: and what I'm for the Cubs, And I think he's
Speaker 1: still with it now. I think he left. Who's he
Speaker 1: with I don't know, but he got to where he
Speaker 1: could actually kind of kind of throw in the first
Speaker 1: base but right, but it's the underhand would be something awkward.
Speaker 1: And I was surprised and I think you agree with
Speaker 1: this that it didn't spill into his pitching. Nope, and
Speaker 1: in the first base, right, and so the fascination of it, um,
Speaker 1: where we're uh, that would be the worst though we're
Speaker 1: Steve Sacks or Chuck Noblocker. Remember Rich Ankie for the
Speaker 1: Cardinals watched it unfold for my eyes when he was
Speaker 1: pitching against the Braves, I think it was the NLCS
Speaker 1: and he just it just he just went to hell
Speaker 1: right front of us. And uh, he ended up coming
Speaker 1: back as a hitter, but never it was an elite,
Speaker 1: elite pitcher. And so there there's those. But I think
Speaker 1: most most most players, UM spend there there pressure, you know,
Speaker 1: spend there in the middle area of it, they could
Speaker 1: just get over the hump. As far as dealing with
Speaker 1: the pressure, they would be elite. They would be pros,
Speaker 1: you know. And and then there are the pros that
Speaker 1: that really can handle the pressure. But you know, Shock
Speaker 1: for example, Okay, in my my opinion, Shock didn't miss.
Speaker 1: Shaq couldn't hit a free throw because of what you
Speaker 1: and I had to deal with. Yeah he had big hands,
Speaker 1: Yeah he had long arms. Yeah he was seven seven,
Speaker 1: But I think it was completely in his head where
Speaker 1: most people say now he shot thirty eight percent because
Speaker 1: his hands are too big. You know, he's worked with
Speaker 1: every coach, you know, he just golfers, golfers, you know,
Speaker 1: the things that involved those finesse muscles like pitching and shooting. It's, uh,
Speaker 1: it's delicate, and the mental psyche is delicate, and that's
Speaker 1: why there's so few, uh great pictures. I'd like to say,
Speaker 1: if if, if if every picture were that that through
Speaker 1: an hour could could put it where they want it,
Speaker 1: then then we wouldn't have Greg Maddox, Doug And that's
Speaker 1: that's the truth. I mean, there would be no room
Speaker 1: for for eight mile hour fastballs hour fastballs. If if
Speaker 1: you could put it where you want it. But the
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is you can't because of the
Speaker 1: mental psyche. There's just it's just hard to be elite.
Speaker 1: And I just I think that's the fascination is why
Speaker 1: did it happen to you and I? Why did it
Speaker 1: happen to Steve Sachs, Why did it happen to Shock Chuck?
Speaker 1: Why do you think like wh why do you think
Speaker 1: do you think it's do you think it's I'd like
Speaker 1: to think it's a side of intelligence, um right, that
Speaker 1: you think too much, that you think about the rampifications
Speaker 1: of it. Um. You know I would, I would say
Speaker 1: that would be my My thing is I just overthought it.
Speaker 1: Joe Crispin, whom you played against, I know, Um, Joe
Speaker 1: Crispin has a saying he would. He's now a D
Speaker 1: three coach. His brother. Yeah, and Joe was a great shooter,
Speaker 1: and I'll never forget he was like, hey man, you
Speaker 1: think you stink. Just remember that you think you stink.
Speaker 1: And I just couldn't. I just couldn't. I I never
Speaker 1: thought about it, never thought about a single pass I
Speaker 1: ever had to make. I never thought about anything else.
Speaker 1: I'd like, you know, all these guys like my son
Speaker 1: was hate Dad, did you crossover go behind your back?
Speaker 1: Was like no, I just I would try and go
Speaker 1: buy somebody, and if they would beat me to a spot,
Speaker 1: I would spin or I'd cross over or go behind
Speaker 1: my back or something something like that. I just react
Speaker 1: to it, like I didn't go all this other one
Speaker 1: on cone bullshit. Um, but I didn't have to. You know,
Speaker 1: whereas you see little kids and they're like thinking moves,
Speaker 1: like wh thinks about a move? But I would get
Speaker 1: up there and I would start I would start thinking,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think, you know, as I've gone
Speaker 1: on now as a dad and trying to teach as
Speaker 1: a coach, and and it's what I've what I've done.
Speaker 1: What I think the proper way to teach things is
Speaker 1: to teach process um as opposed to result, which is like, hey,
Speaker 1: worry about your feet and you're breathing in your hands,
Speaker 1: and just don't even worry about the ball going in
Speaker 1: because the more if your feet are right, you know,
Speaker 1: if you just worry about these little things, your feet
Speaker 1: are right, your hands right, it'll go in more more
Speaker 1: times than not. I think that's the way. Okay, so
Speaker 1: let me fast forward here because uh, your time is precious.
Speaker 1: You become a head coach at twenty five years old
Speaker 1: at Indiana produe Fort Wayne. What was that like, you know,
Speaker 1: once again being the son of a coach. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: the basketball component was was easy teaching, It came natural.
Speaker 1: I think what you can't which you can't get a
Speaker 1: head coach much less year old to understand, is that
Speaker 1: this is a serious business and they're you know, just
Speaker 1: like just like the financial world or you know, the
Speaker 1: movie business. This is a serious business and there are
Speaker 1: a lot of there's a lot of good people, and
Speaker 1: then there's a lot of people that will will um
Speaker 1: are looking for the for the easy way and growing
Speaker 1: up the way I did, I assume your same way,
Speaker 1: especially in sports. Um, small town you're you're you're not
Speaker 1: really exposed to I wasn't bows to um. You know,
Speaker 1: the the the the the bad parts of of of
Speaker 1: of humans. You know that where um, there's there's a
Speaker 1: the selfish part of it, the selfish part of the world,
Speaker 1: the greedy part of the world. And so UM, I'm
Speaker 1: just thinking, look, if I'm just honest, if I'm just kind,
Speaker 1: if I'm just do things right, like coach Knight did
Speaker 1: I'll be great, and it just wasn't the way it worked,
Speaker 1: and and in in in what in what way? I
Speaker 1: mean like listening like this is a long way removed
Speaker 1: from it, but in what way? Well, you mean an example,
Speaker 1: how did it the way it changed me? I went
Speaker 1: into it as a year old with with a very
Speaker 1: open minded, um naive part of it being so young,
Speaker 1: but just believing in in people, UM with the utmost
Speaker 1: degree of respect and honesty and integrity, because that's all
Speaker 1: I've ever been around and exposed to. And part of
Speaker 1: it was my choice, you know, going to Indiana, I
Speaker 1: was around a lot of great people. Part of it
Speaker 1: was just being in a family and in a town
Speaker 1: that had great leadership and great people. And so UM,
Speaker 1: I entered a world of of um, there's there's millions
Speaker 1: to be made, and there's a lot a lot of
Speaker 1: money in a stake, and then you've got to deal
Speaker 1: with UM A lot of good parents, but but many
Speaker 1: delusional parents and coaches and mentors and a lot of
Speaker 1: different agendas. So essentially I entered the real world, and
Speaker 1: the real world can be unforgiving, and so UM as
Speaker 1: a year old UH, navigating the the running with the Wolves.
Speaker 1: Was was a big shock. Um. So an example would
Speaker 1: just simply be um scheduling. You know, I didn't understand
Speaker 1: that you couldn't just play um Michigan State and and
Speaker 1: lose because you and I were brought up as, hey,
Speaker 1: let's play these teams to get better, right, you know,
Speaker 1: so I was. I was excited about those opportunities. I
Speaker 1: didn't care about my record at that time. And the
Speaker 1: more I was told and that look, you gotta get wins,
Speaker 1: you gotta get this, you gotta get I said, well, hey,
Speaker 1: look let's get our players better. Um I would say
Speaker 1: that the recruiting world is even at that level, is
Speaker 1: is difficult in what way? Because of everybody thinks sir
Speaker 1: pro Yeah, yeah, that's the that's the amazing part. Right.
Speaker 1: It's like listen, do you know Indiana produced Fort Wayne
Speaker 1: by the way, like people obviously google terrible, Like your
Speaker 1: last year, you're eighteen and twelve a I p f W.
Speaker 1: That's amazing that, that's amazing in Division one basketball concerning
Speaker 1: the number of guarantee games you had to play, the resources,
Speaker 1: the fact that like you're not even the most famous
Speaker 1: I U p U, right, like iupui Pooe was much more,
Speaker 1: not like wait, what produced Fort Wayne? What the hell? Um?
Speaker 1: It was funny because I had an assistant named Jeff
Speaker 1: tong Gate who's the head coach of the Oakland University women,
Speaker 1: but he was assistant and he was my assistant, and
Speaker 1: he was at division division to school. And when he
Speaker 1: came in on day one and saw our budget at
Speaker 1: I p f W who was transitioning from D one
Speaker 1: or D two to D one we weren't in the league.
Speaker 1: He said, this is you're funded. I got bad news.
Speaker 1: You're funded like a bad, bad Division two teams and
Speaker 1: for for go ahead, sorry, and he said, the chances
Speaker 1: of us getting ten home games out of twenty nine
Speaker 1: or thirty at the time is is going to be
Speaker 1: really difficult. And he said, you want worse news. He said,
Speaker 1: you're starting going five out of the gate. And he said,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? He goes, we get to play
Speaker 1: five by games. And of the so many that were
Speaker 1: played last year, let's say there were two fifty turned
Speaker 1: fifty by games that were played last year. He said
Speaker 1: three three teams won a bye game. So you start
Speaker 1: out ohing five And then the tough part was just
Speaker 1: getting games and even more difficult than that was getting
Speaker 1: home games. But um, you know that said that the
Speaker 1: building part. We finally got into a league eventually, And
Speaker 1: you said eighteen and twelve. There It was funny because
Speaker 1: the year I left, we were eighteen and twelve and
Speaker 1: that was the year that Michigan State lost to u C.
Speaker 1: L A in the first round. And uh, I said,
Speaker 1: I think we were eighteen and twelve, and I think
Speaker 1: Michigan State was nineteen and twelve. I said, they're having
Speaker 1: a parade for us in Fort Wayne and they're ready
Speaker 1: to fire is already in East Lansing. And that's that.
Speaker 1: That gives you some perspective. I said, we finished third
Speaker 1: in our league, might even finish a second and I
Speaker 1: don't remember, but um, you know, Michigan we finished third
Speaker 1: in the Big ten. We maybe a three seed, you know,
Speaker 1: And I'd say eighteen at the mid low major level
Speaker 1: because of buy games, yeah, high major, more than twenty.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can you know, twenty wins. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you know this, but over a hundred teams
Speaker 1: per year win twenty games. Um, okay, So so you
Speaker 1: go to Michigan State. What is Tom Zoh like to work?
Speaker 1: For And look, obviously you're not gonna say anything about
Speaker 1: a bunch your boss. All I can tell you is, guys, generally,
Speaker 1: you know you your staff YouTube haven't left and it's
Speaker 1: not for lack of opportunities. So he must be pretty
Speaker 1: damn good to work for. What is he like? Everybody?
Speaker 1: It's funny, Uh, when I'm on the road, get to know,
Speaker 1: somebody talked to somebody, maybe just met from another program.
Speaker 1: What's it like? What's it like working for his eye?
Speaker 1: He's the best, you know? I say, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: They say, do you love it? Do you love it? Dane?
Speaker 1: He said, are you kidding me? It's hard? Love it winning?
Speaker 1: I love winning, all right, But coming into work every day, um,
Speaker 1: it's hard work. I don't know if loves the right word,
Speaker 1: but I'll tell you this dog, I love him and
Speaker 1: he makes me better every single day. And um, you know,
Speaker 1: I was looking at a job last year and it
Speaker 1: paid more it was. I wouldn't call it a lateral move,
Speaker 1: but it's hard to make a lateral move from from
Speaker 1: a program like this and a and a boss like this.
Speaker 1: But I said, I don't want to go. I said,
Speaker 1: I just want to know that you bring value. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I just want to know that I'm still that you
Speaker 1: think I'm still bringing value to your program, and that
Speaker 1: that I'm still making your program better. And you know,
Speaker 1: he obviously told me yes because I stayed. But um,
Speaker 1: it's it's every day that that I feel I get better.
Speaker 1: And I just told somebody that this morning. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: why not take a certain job or go after a
Speaker 1: certain job that's open. I said, you know, it would
Speaker 1: take a lot to give me to leave, and mainly
Speaker 1: because I'm still getting better. I'm still learning here in
Speaker 1: a major way and hard to work for. But here's
Speaker 1: the thing about coaches. Oh, what he says he's gonna do,
Speaker 1: he's gonna do. And at no point, even in his
Speaker 1: worst day, even when he's told me, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I've done something wrong or done a bad job, or
Speaker 1: he's disappointed at or yells at me, or tells me
Speaker 1: look for another job at the end of the year,
Speaker 1: at no point do I not think that he doesn't
Speaker 1: have my best interests in mind. I know at all
Speaker 1: times that whatever he does, it's it's for my best interests,
Speaker 1: much like a player. But I've just never been around
Speaker 1: a guy that's more selfless than him. And we can
Speaker 1: talk about him making big money and all that, you
Speaker 1: know what, he's had chances to triple that and put
Speaker 1: less time in at in the NBA. And so we're
Speaker 1: in a part. We're in a situation right now in
Speaker 1: college basketball that there is not a better leader. And
Speaker 1: I am going to stroke my boss for a little
Speaker 1: for a second. There's not a better leader slash CEO
Speaker 1: out there than than than coaches, because he gets the
Speaker 1: most out of you, and yet he does it out
Speaker 1: of love. And we can talk about him getting in
Speaker 1: people's faces, but him doing that to somebody is different
Speaker 1: than say me, are you doing that to somebody? Because
Speaker 1: of the mont and love and time and passion and
Speaker 1: um work that he puts into each individual player and
Speaker 1: coach in person. You know this. This is a guy
Speaker 1: that grew up in a really small Upper Peninsula town,
Speaker 1: poor town. He was poor. His dad owned a shoe
Speaker 1: repair shop and he was in there working. And if
Speaker 1: you didn't if five people came in to spend money
Speaker 1: that day, Doug, you needed him to spend money. So
Speaker 1: you had to learn to treat people like a million
Speaker 1: bucks and be genuine about it and so this is
Speaker 1: just a larger, a larger to repair shop. Honestly, I've
Speaker 1: just never been any anybody and around anybody that's as
Speaker 1: passionate and caring about others as this guy. As coaches
Speaker 1: in his position, he doesn't have to be he doesn't
Speaker 1: have to coach, he doesn't have to put up with stuff.
Speaker 1: He could go to the NBA, he could retire. It's
Speaker 1: it's just an incredible time. And the book hasn't been written,
Speaker 1: and I'm surprised why it has. You can make a
Speaker 1: lot of money right in a book on this guy
Speaker 1: where I actually ran into the final four. But do
Speaker 1: you want him? Have him him? Right? I want let
Speaker 1: me this I could I could change and I could,
Speaker 1: I could, I could write it. Um. Okay, so I
Speaker 1: gotta I got a couple more um because I want
Speaker 1: to talk about this year's team, But first I want
Speaker 1: to ask him. This is in regards to this year's team.
Speaker 1: He has certain things that he does, right. He always
Speaker 1: he'd always you know, come over a call time out
Speaker 1: here in the game, situations, things you guys prepare for.
Speaker 1: But what I've noticed is something he started some of
Speaker 1: it last year, but really this year especially and the
Speaker 1: team had some limitations, but I've noticed kind of a
Speaker 1: bit of an evolution in some of the stuff. You
Speaker 1: guys run like. You go back a couple of years
Speaker 1: ago when I was a CBS like, it was the
Speaker 1: same plays and sets and maybe even calls. You guys
Speaker 1: would run forever. Look and you still have your still core.
Speaker 1: You know you're still rebounding, You're still transitioning. You know,
Speaker 1: you guys are still running the lane super hard and
Speaker 1: super wide. You guys still rebound like wild dogs. But
Speaker 1: the the actual sets offensively have evolved. There's some NBA looks,
Speaker 1: there's some ball screens that are to the baseline side,
Speaker 1: there's some different stuff. Who's the guy in the staff
Speaker 1: that convinced him to change, Well, I'm sure there's a
Speaker 1: bunch of people, but um, I guess from my perspective,
Speaker 1: my approach with coach was, you know, he always he's
Speaker 1: best friends with the late Flips, Honors love Slip and
Speaker 1: Flip would always come every summer and chalk talk and
Speaker 1: the coach would always always, since I've been here, would
Speaker 1: always hear Coach talk about, you know, flipping his counters.
Speaker 1: Flipping his counters. That's a good point coach, Why why
Speaker 1: do you why do you say flipping his counters? It's
Speaker 1: just you know, like shouldn't shouldn't we have counters to
Speaker 1: a set? Thinking why doesn't he like counters? And so
Speaker 1: so he wasn't real big on counters per se, you know, counterplace.
Speaker 1: So if you run a pin down and they go
Speaker 1: underneath the pin down, you should we call it a faith?
Speaker 1: Just script it, you know, just all right, Travis Stritch,
Speaker 1: you're coming off of faith because they're going up the
Speaker 1: gut counter Um, more motion, principles, more reads. But um,
Speaker 1: after last year we lost the Syracuse. Now there's a
Speaker 1: million reasons why, but you don't want to hear any
Speaker 1: of them. But I just thought, all right, some yeah,
Speaker 1: some things that we need to change, okay, And I
Speaker 1: went down my list of things that need we need
Speaker 1: to work on. Of course naturally end of the season,
Speaker 1: but I just got to thinking, you know, today's player,
Speaker 1: all right, forget about the personality, the toughness, all that stuff.
Speaker 1: We can sort through that. But today's player, especially the
Speaker 1: young kids, are taught so much with the ball in
Speaker 1: their hands. Okay, And Miles Bridges is an example. I
Speaker 1: just had this discussion with with a coach. But go ahead,
Speaker 1: if you watch Miles play in college. Okay, damn damn good.
Speaker 1: All those that good at good at what he's good at.
Speaker 1: But one of the things he had no idea how
Speaker 1: to do when he got him, when we got him,
Speaker 1: was was played without the basketball. That takes time. So
Speaker 1: I said, we're pounding a square peg to a round
Speaker 1: hole trying to teach these guys how to move and cut,
Speaker 1: teach them all these principles how to play without the ball.
Speaker 1: And that's great, we should and we should never stop.
Speaker 1: But I said, we've got to start put putting them
Speaker 1: in positions a that they're good at and b um,
Speaker 1: you know, allowing them to not allowing them, but but
Speaker 1: um catering to you know what, what what each player
Speaker 1: can can do well. And so I said, in addition,
Speaker 1: you know, one of our biggest selves is that we
Speaker 1: are we are running an NBA style offense. And yet
Speaker 1: the NBA seemingly has moved a little bit. And we've,
Speaker 1: as you kind of alluded to, you've you said, we've
Speaker 1: we've stayed the same, right, and so we have guys
Speaker 1: like Miles Bridges who and Jaren Jackson, um that a
Speaker 1: they're young, incredibly young, seventeen eighteen, and B I really
Speaker 1: don't know how to play without the ball. Jarring was
Speaker 1: better than Miles, But um, that's a lot to ask
Speaker 1: considering we are so young and so the the recruiting
Speaker 1: philosophy I think needs to be changed. Needs to change
Speaker 1: our recruiting philosophy. It's hard to survive with a couple
Speaker 1: of one and done. You either got to go all in,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, or really really limit your one and dones.
Speaker 1: But b we either recruit kids that know how to
Speaker 1: play without the ball, which is really hard to find,
Speaker 1: or recruit the best talent that that we think fits
Speaker 1: our program, the best profile that fits our program. And
Speaker 1: you never know until they get here. But what we
Speaker 1: do know is the guru generation, the trainer generation, you know,
Speaker 1: the kids that don't go play five on five out
Speaker 1: in the park or at you know, one on I like,
Speaker 1: I call it one on cone generation. There you go,
Speaker 1: that's right, We've got We've got some amazing I I
Speaker 1: that's what I sell the recruits. It's funny. Look, I
Speaker 1: can put you through the best cone drills you'll ever see,
Speaker 1: you know, as good as as good as as good
Speaker 1: as anybody, as good as the best in the country.
Speaker 1: I can set up combs, okay, but you know the
Speaker 1: one thing you're gonna get here is is this this
Speaker 1: and this chance to play for a championship, chance to
Speaker 1: play for a Hall of famorage. And you'll be pushed. Um.
Speaker 1: But that was my that was I know that was
Speaker 1: a long answer, but you know that was my thought
Speaker 1: is we we've got to do a better job putting
Speaker 1: our players in position to play to their strengths. Uh
Speaker 1: in real time, yah, you know. And and they'll they'll evolve,
Speaker 1: they'll develop, We believe in versatility. And then the counters.
Speaker 1: All right, So if they go start trapping Cash, is
Speaker 1: his ball to ball screen, let's not go away from Okay,
Speaker 1: can't can't set a ball screen for Cashes. Let's use
Speaker 1: it against him, you know, Let's let him trap Cash
Speaker 1: and put our guys in position to where now we're
Speaker 1: going to punish him. You know, if they start turning,
Speaker 1: if they start playing on top of a down screen,
Speaker 1: let's not go away from the down screen. Let's use
Speaker 1: it against him. And so those were the adjustments that
Speaker 1: were my suggestions and and coach is awesome. Coaches, those
Speaker 1: the best in listening. You may not agree with it,
Speaker 1: but he's definitely gonna listen. So, how did now that
Speaker 1: you've had a chance to decompress, you guys had an
Speaker 1: amazing year, right, Like, not just you lose lottery picks
Speaker 1: and you win your tournament in Vegas, you win the
Speaker 1: Big Ten, You in the Big Ten tournament, you get
Speaker 1: to a final four, right, like, of of things that
Speaker 1: can be checked, you checked every box except for one,
Speaker 1: which is in a national championship, right, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: that's an InCred season. And then you factor in all
Speaker 1: the injuries, right like I think if you had arms,
Speaker 1: I think you might you might go to a national
Speaker 1: championship game. You know, forget about if you had if
Speaker 1: you had Langford. Um. But and I remember I was
Speaker 1: sitting us from Steve Lavin and we did this was
Speaker 1: before one of your games early the season, and I
Speaker 1: picked you guys to win the Big Ten and I said,
Speaker 1: no agendas. I was like, this is a this is
Speaker 1: a great this is gonna be a great college basketball team,
Speaker 1: because I'd see in Vegas. But how now that you've
Speaker 1: had a chance to kind of decompress and think about it, Um,
Speaker 1: how did it come to be that you guys had
Speaker 1: this type of year. Considering all of the different things
Speaker 1: which could have caused it to go south, Well, I
Speaker 1: think what what we did is, um, we knew going
Speaker 1: in that Davier Tillman was going to be a great
Speaker 1: player for US. Okay, he was having a great summer.
Speaker 1: Um changed his body and he just has an unbelievable
Speaker 1: feel for the game. And so we knew that Tillman
Speaker 1: was really going to help us. He's he is, he's
Speaker 1: we used the term Draymond like. He's Draymond like on
Speaker 1: defense defense in that he makes up for a lot
Speaker 1: of mistakes that other players make. And um, we knew
Speaker 1: we had a bunch of really good pieces. But the
Speaker 1: one thing we couldn't really the factor is is um
Speaker 1: we we didn't know who was We needed people to
Speaker 1: step up. So we felt like Tillman was going to
Speaker 1: step up. We felt like obviously Langford was going to
Speaker 1: be better. We weren't sure on mcclad uh or Kenny Goings,
Speaker 1: and those guys stepped up in a major way. We
Speaker 1: knew Matt was going to be a great defender. Okay,
Speaker 1: Matt's one of the best in the country. Um, but
Speaker 1: he just was so much more confidence, confident on offense.
Speaker 1: And I think part of that was was that Josh
Speaker 1: Langford got hurt and Matt didn't feel the you know,
Speaker 1: didn't feel the guilt, maybe that it was his time
Speaker 1: to make a player shoot when he knew he had
Speaker 1: another elite player next to him. Um, you know, Nick
Speaker 1: Ward getting hurt was was was devastating, but it also
Speaker 1: helped other guys gained confidence and get better. Um Cassius Winston,
Speaker 1: you know when Josh went down, that was our other
Speaker 1: that was our third score. You know, you had cash,
Speaker 1: Nick Cassius once in, Nick Ward and Josh Lankford, we
Speaker 1: felt were going to do the bulk of our scoring.
Speaker 1: So then it forced us to be a little bit
Speaker 1: more creative with cashes. And there were times in games
Speaker 1: where maybe I would be calling something for another player
Speaker 1: to at least get the ball and and there was
Speaker 1: no We're ball screened for Cash, Give Cash base, he'll
Speaker 1: make a play. And uh So, I think that when
Speaker 1: it's all said and done, how did we hang on
Speaker 1: and keep getting better? Um, I'll give coaching some credit,
Speaker 1: I'll give culture a lot of credit, but I think
Speaker 1: in the end, the players bought into what we were doing,
Speaker 1: Doug and and that is hard to do, especially when
Speaker 1: you've got um McDonald's all Americans, kids that had a
Speaker 1: ton of success, kids that are driven to be pros.
Speaker 1: They bought into what we were doing. I'd say, you're right.
Speaker 1: If we had Kyle Arnes, we probably would have played
Speaker 1: in that championship game. And that's not to take anything
Speaker 1: away from Texas Tech, but um, that experienced player would
Speaker 1: would make a huge difference because when Aaron Henry got
Speaker 1: in followed trouble h in the first half of that
Speaker 1: semifinal game, we felt like we could play six and
Speaker 1: a half guys and the half was gonna spell. It
Speaker 1: was going to give McQuaid a one or two minute
Speaker 1: break and maybe Cashious a one or two. We couldn't
Speaker 1: give him Acquit a break, and I think it wore
Speaker 1: mcquait out. And I will give Matt McQuaid credit or
Speaker 1: Texas Tech credit for that. Becauld. We have played Aaron
Speaker 1: Henry with with two fouls in the first half, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's not really what we do. And we felt
Speaker 1: like as long as we were close in the game,
Speaker 1: we didn't need to play them. But maybe that's for
Speaker 1: another day. No, listen, I mean I would I generally
Speaker 1: would disagree with that that philosophy. I thought it nearly
Speaker 1: got that that same thought. UM heard Virginia when they
Speaker 1: took Quite out with two fouls and then he in
Speaker 1: the they took he took um uh. He took tied
Speaker 1: Drome out with with four fouls with like five minutes
Speaker 1: to go against Auburn, and tied Rome has never foul
Speaker 1: out of a game. He only had four fouls one
Speaker 1: of the game this year. You know, they don't foul
Speaker 1: or they don't. Actually they're like Michigan. They don't get
Speaker 1: called for fouls. They don't. They don't foul. They put
Speaker 1: Zion back in in our game and he had two falls. Yeah, listen,
Speaker 1: I I think it's it's very much case dependent. And
Speaker 1: I played for a guy who would sit there and
Speaker 1: go like, well, coach, you want you want to leave
Speaker 1: him in or do you wanna take him out like
Speaker 1: you get five stop fouling. Yes, it was. It was
Speaker 1: a very simple philosophy. You stop fouling. Combs sitting next
Speaker 1: to me and help me coach, Like all right, okay,
Speaker 1: I guess moving on, but hey, listen. It was an
Speaker 1: incredible incredible year. Uh, but you know what one last
Speaker 1: one last thing on on I want to do on
Speaker 1: on Coach Coach Night because I got time. I got time. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I know. But with the in terms of a podcast,
Speaker 1: you don't want it to because people will download it
Speaker 1: more if it's a little bit you know you, I
Speaker 1: could splice it up. I don't know if you're worthy
Speaker 1: of two pods. I don't know that. Um, and I
Speaker 1: don't know what I was saying. You can cut some
Speaker 1: stuff out. I don't want to cut anything out. It's
Speaker 1: been freaking good. UM put late in late night and
Speaker 1: have me put some people to sleep. What? Uh? You
Speaker 1: know like he was he was on campus last week.
Speaker 1: Obviously he made an appearance and obviously he's got some
Speaker 1: memory issues that that's working. What what what would feel? What?
Speaker 1: I feel bad like? I feel like, look, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: part of the Coach Sutton family. I feel terrible that
Speaker 1: the image that people have of him now is you know,
Speaker 1: UM in a wheelchair and you know, unable to You're
Speaker 1: unable to feel what it was like and people are
Speaker 1: right and am I am I crazy? But you guys
Speaker 1: playing against Texas Tech like there's just there was a
Speaker 1: lot of Bob Knight in how Texas Tech played, how
Speaker 1: they competed. You mentioned the defense in the motion in
Speaker 1: the offense, right, like if you were to relate a man.
Speaker 1: I can't say exactly what it would be like if
Speaker 1: Coach Knight was in his prime, but a lot of
Speaker 1: what it might have looked like was what Texas Tech
Speaker 1: was like. No, you know what with the players they had,
Speaker 1: they had men, and they had men that were willing to,
Speaker 1: you know, lay down their bodies for for the betterment
Speaker 1: of the team. And um, I was just fascinated with
Speaker 1: one that that their motion and they didn't run a
Speaker 1: ton of it against US. UM. But I give Coach
Speaker 1: Beard all the credit, especially with they got tired by
Speaker 1: the way, Guarden, you guys and say stopped moving, They
Speaker 1: kind of stopped unning when you guys made that run
Speaker 1: the second half. They were gas they were tired. They
Speaker 1: were they were And I think that you know, obviously
Speaker 1: Owen gets hurt with his ankle against US, and that's
Speaker 1: nobody's fault in this awful to see it happened, but
Speaker 1: I think it impacted him for the next game too,
Speaker 1: you know, against Virginia. And I think that you know,
Speaker 1: we we did a number on them, as they did
Speaker 1: a number on us. But I think whichever team made
Speaker 1: it through the Virginia was going to have a tough,
Speaker 1: tough game for the simple fact that the two teams
Speaker 1: that played in the second game on Saturday night, it
Speaker 1: was a war. And you know, it's back to the
Speaker 1: coach Night, coach Beard. Um. It's interesting that any anybody
Speaker 1: who runs motion today is you know, I feel for him,
Speaker 1: but I admire them, but their toughness, you know, it
Speaker 1: did it reminded me of um, you know those Coach
Speaker 1: Knight's first team. You know, he always talks the first
Speaker 1: championship team with Quinn Buckner and Scott May and those guys.
Speaker 1: It was a tough, rugged, blue collar to one to
Speaker 1: five team. And I think that you know, if you
Speaker 1: get a chance to ask coaches, oh, I think he'll
Speaker 1: he'll readily admit that that team was tougher, tough, if
Speaker 1: not tougher than us, Um, especially in that game. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then rarely, and that rarely happens. Then Moody made
Speaker 1: some shot. They just you know, they made some shots
Speaker 1: and you know, paying from behind, yeah, and and playing
Speaker 1: from behind is hard it's just, you know, so much
Speaker 1: better to die. No. I mean, yes, you had had
Speaker 1: you had a run, you had him within grasp. They
Speaker 1: they I talked to those guys afterwards. I was like,
Speaker 1: you guys stopped running offense, Like dude, we were tired.
Speaker 1: Guarding them is hard. Yeah, it's funny because I mentioned
Speaker 1: McQuade being exhausted. You know that Shotty gets in the
Speaker 1: corner from Aaron Henry. Yeah, okay, late in the game.
Speaker 1: He makes that nine and a half times out of ten.
Speaker 1: But I think that Henry getting followed trouble really hurt us.
Speaker 1: They're not playing errand by any sense. Just McQuaid makes
Speaker 1: that shot nine and a half times out of ten
Speaker 1: and he missed it to tie the game. Toman gets
Speaker 1: the ball stolen with we're down four minute and a half. Hey,
Speaker 1: those guys did a number on us too. It was
Speaker 1: a great game, probably not from a fans perspective, but
Speaker 1: I disagree. I was sitting there watching I thought it
Speaker 1: was like it was like watching there was like watching
Speaker 1: four prize three prize fights. It was that was fantastic.
Speaker 1: But you're a coach. I don't consider you a fan.
Speaker 1: You're a coach. I'm not a don't have a team.
Speaker 1: You know you don't have a team. Well, I have
Speaker 1: like fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh high school teams that should
Speaker 1: done not compared to what what what you guys have. Listen,
Speaker 1: you've been more than gracious with your time. And I
Speaker 1: think people at this point, if they've listened this long,
Speaker 1: they're like, man, these guys who go on on. We
Speaker 1: will do a part two at some point this summer.
Speaker 1: Um and uh, we'll we'll we'll talk more about izoh.
Speaker 1: And I love the stuff about the brain and the mentality.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Congratulations on an incredible season. Incredible, I
Speaker 1: would love to be Dugan's just such a much cool
Speaker 1: an ending Doug, thanks for joining, Eric, Yeah, thanks join
Speaker 1: all right, So that my thanks to Dane Fife, um
Speaker 1: and to two Tony Bennett. Virginia is our national champion.
Speaker 1: And look, with with all of the not all of
Speaker 1: the mess, all the mess that has been college basketball,
Speaker 1: the perception of college basketball, to have Virginia in it
Speaker 1: where you got legit student athletes and a coach that
Speaker 1: doesn't cheat, and and um, somebody who has just a
Speaker 1: great balance of having been beaten by Syracuse when they
Speaker 1: should have gone to the Final four by u NBC
Speaker 1: when they were upset the year before too. Then have
Speaker 1: these miraculous three wins in a row and win a
Speaker 1: national championship and doing things the right way. I think
Speaker 1: it's great for the sport. I think it's great for
Speaker 1: the sport. We'll do more recaps on the year, We'll
Speaker 1: have more coaches on, We'll turn our focus more also
Speaker 1: to the NBA upcoming. I really appreciate you downloading, subscribing,
Speaker 1: and rating the All Ball podcast. Remember to check out
Speaker 1: the radio show, Doug Gotlib Show daily three to six,
Speaker 1: season time twelve three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, Fox
Speaker 1: Sport Trade dot Com, the I Heart Radio app as well.
Speaker 1: I'm Doug Gottliebin. This is All Ball.