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Speaker 1: Welcome to the All Ball Podcast. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and

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Speaker 1: remember you can you can listen to The Doug Gotlieb

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Speaker 1: Show every afternoon three to six Eastern Time, twelve three

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Speaker 1: Pacific XM Serious, two oh three and two seventeen. Don't

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Speaker 1: ask me in which one you can find it. Um.

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Speaker 1: We're on the same channel as Dan Patrick on Sirius

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Speaker 1: xm UM. And of course you can go to Fox

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Speaker 1: Sports Tradio dot com. You can also download The Doug

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Speaker 1: Gotlieb Show daily on iTunes wherever you downloaded this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Remember too, what is it to download, subscribe and to

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Speaker 1: rate our podcast? Because I don't think it helps me financially,

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Speaker 1: but it helps my podcast rank ratings or whatever. Um,

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Speaker 1: and the downloads have been great. Listen. I'll leave the

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Speaker 1: final four with this. There was seventy six thousand six

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Speaker 1: two people. That was great basketball four amazing stories. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how Auburn got to where they should have

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Speaker 1: gone to the national championship without h mckeeky, but they

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Speaker 1: probably should have, right. Uh. Virginia is the national champion,

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Speaker 1: coming from losing to Maryland Baltimore County to winning an

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Speaker 1: S championship amazing. And then the way in which they

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Speaker 1: won the last three games. Uh, Michigan State losing Josh Langford,

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Speaker 1: losing two pros, Heck nic Ward getting hurt, and then

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Speaker 1: winning the Big Ten, the Big Ten Tournament, beating Duke,

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Speaker 1: going to a final four and coming back and having

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Speaker 1: a ball in the air down three chance to tie

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Speaker 1: the game late incredible and uh and then Texas Tech

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Speaker 1: who lost four starters. And like I think the world

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Speaker 1: of Chris Beard. I would only say this with with

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Speaker 1: Chris Beard, if I could, I could make one change,

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Speaker 1: I would have taken out Odossi after he made the

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Speaker 1: free throw to put him up three. I know they

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Speaker 1: switched five all year long, but he gets beat and

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Speaker 1: then I don't know why Cover you know, leaves the

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Speaker 1: best player on the floor in the corner open for

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Speaker 1: a jump shot instead of given up the easy two.

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Speaker 1: They would have had a one point lead. But they're

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Speaker 1: college kids. This happens, and um I thought ultimately it

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Speaker 1: cost them. Obviously, there were some calls that went the

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Speaker 1: way of Virginia. Um I. Also, I'm gonna play for

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Speaker 1: you something that you might find interesting that this was

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Speaker 1: Tony Bennett on my radio show talking about a conversation

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Speaker 1: he and I had after the college basketball season last

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Speaker 1: year when they lost to Marylyn Baltimore County. You bring

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Speaker 1: up Key and he did have a huge championship game,

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Speaker 1: but I also think it speaks to you and your

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Speaker 1: ability to read the game on the fly because Key struggled,

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Speaker 1: you know a little bit with with their size, with

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Speaker 1: their length, and really they're just older guys, right, He's

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Speaker 1: a kid, They're they're grown men. And I thought you

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Speaker 1: made uh and they kind of change their line up.

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Speaker 1: They went to a little bit of a small ball lineup,

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Speaker 1: and it it caused you to change. Was that was

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Speaker 1: that part of your plan um to play Key that

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Speaker 1: much in the championship game or is that something you've

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Speaker 1: felt as the game went on. I felt that as

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Speaker 1: the game went on. And Doug, I'm gonna give you

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Speaker 1: some credit. You and I had a conversation. You know,

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Speaker 1: we go back so many years. You know, um our

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Speaker 1: fathers were both you know, legendary coaches who have poured

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Speaker 1: so much into us. And after last year's UNBC game,

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Speaker 1: you know, you and I talked. I can't remember if

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Speaker 1: we did an interview or not, but you talked and

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Speaker 1: you challenged me and encouraged me that you know, obviously,

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Speaker 1: like everyone would grow from this game, but you know,

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Speaker 1: can you can you find ways when the tournament comes

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Speaker 1: to play differently even through the year, try different things,

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Speaker 1: whether it's offensively or defensively, um or lineup wise. And

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Speaker 1: I remember that conversation and I and I knew we

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Speaker 1: had to do that because you know, obviously we were

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Speaker 1: good last year and DeAndre Hunter allowed us to play small,

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Speaker 1: and then when DeAndre got hurt in the n c

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Speaker 1: A tournament before that, we couldn't we didn't have that

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Speaker 1: four guard lineup. Well. This year, when Braxton and Key

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Speaker 1: got eligible, I knew at times we're gonna be able

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Speaker 1: to play Key has a five and Ray as a

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Speaker 1: four or vice versa, and a real small lineup. And

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Speaker 1: then against Perdue, we needed to go big with salt

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Speaker 1: and and mom Andy, so you kind of challenge me.

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Speaker 1: We added some things and I really tried to think

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Speaker 1: hard about that, and I thought in tournament runs, you

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Speaker 1: need to be able to have the versatility to mix

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Speaker 1: things up offensively or defense. We used the offense against

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Speaker 1: um Texas Tech in the championship game that we hadn't

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Speaker 1: hardly used all year because they ran a different kind

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Speaker 1: of defense with the way they forced it on the

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Speaker 1: side and switched, and so you have to have those

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Speaker 1: things ready in those situations. So yeah, you know, look,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get into fouls. By the time

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Speaker 1: you download this podcast, you probably forgot about the blow

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Speaker 1: by both the play by play of different things. I

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Speaker 1: will say this, and I'm I'm sure I'm annoying to

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who I'm friends with in college basketball,

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Speaker 1: text back and forth with ironically all four of these teams.

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Speaker 1: I worked a little bit for Bruce Pearl. I know

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Speaker 1: Stephen really well. Uh, Dane Fife is gonna be our

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Speaker 1: guest and coaches, Um, I communicate with them often throughout

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Speaker 1: the season. Tony Bennett don't communicate as much with but

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Speaker 1: we go way way back. My dad, of course, was

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Speaker 1: the coach at u W Milwaukee. His dad's a Wisconsin legend.

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Speaker 1: He's always been super kind to me. Um. At some

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Speaker 1: point I'll have him on this pod and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about how Clay Thompson became a Washington State Cougar. I'm forgetting. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and then Chris Beard has to form local and state

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Speaker 1: assistant coaches and head coach Sean Sean Sutton on the staff,

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Speaker 1: and I become pretty close with with coach Beard as well.

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Speaker 1: So I know all of these guys and so I'm

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Speaker 1: probably annoying to them and that I do text them

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Speaker 1: and call them and give you it's not giving my

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Speaker 1: two cents, sometimes another set of eyes. It's valuable. And

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Speaker 1: I always tell him like, hey, listen, if you don't

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Speaker 1: if I don't know I'm talking about fine. But what

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Speaker 1: I told Tony Bennett, what I encouraged Tony Bennett to do,

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Speaker 1: I was like, look, I think your style of play

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Speaker 1: is fine. I think you're going to get to a

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Speaker 1: fun four. I think you've got a chance to in

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Speaker 1: a national championship. But I think your percentage chances increase

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Speaker 1: if you continue to add to your offensive repertoire. Remember,

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Speaker 1: here's the guy who played overseas Um, here's the guys

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Speaker 1: playing in the NBA. And it's not for lack of knowledge,

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Speaker 1: it's just you can't simply depend on blocker mover and

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Speaker 1: not have other tricks in the back. They went to

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Speaker 1: some ball screen continuities. This year, they've put in more

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Speaker 1: NBA sets. Of course, I think most of the college

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Speaker 1: basketball world loves one of their elevator plays that they

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Speaker 1: ran um But more than anything, I encouraged him. And

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Speaker 1: this is just a general philosophy I have in life,

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Speaker 1: but especially in sports, which is, hey, the goal of

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Speaker 1: a team when they're preparing for you is to make

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Speaker 1: you play left handed, make you do something that you

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Speaker 1: might be uncomfortable doing, and so and oftentimes coaches will

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Speaker 1: fall back on, well, you know, it's just a bad

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Speaker 1: matchup for us. It's just a bad matchup. That's what

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Speaker 1: it was. We lost because it was a bad matchup,

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Speaker 1: and that's reasonable. Sometimes there's certain styles, certain teams where

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Speaker 1: you just don't match up well against. You know, you

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Speaker 1: just got limitations based upon your personnel. That's gonna happen.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, I remember I was I was

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Speaker 1: covering I don't want to tell you the team's name,

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Speaker 1: but I was covering a team this year and at

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Speaker 1: the end of a game, they ran a play for

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Speaker 1: a shooter, for a left handed shooter, and he came

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Speaker 1: off of It's one of those players I call it

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Speaker 1: the nail. When you drive to the base in instead

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Speaker 1: of throwing the hammer, you come back behind you and

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Speaker 1: the shooter from the top of the key comes to

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Speaker 1: shoot the basketball. Well, they ran that play and left

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Speaker 1: handed player shot fakes, and even though the to go

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Speaker 1: to the right was open, he wanted to come back

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Speaker 1: to a strong left hand. He went back to the defense.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't as open. They lose the game. And so

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Speaker 1: when I when I talked to with with the coaches afterwards,

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Speaker 1: I was like, hey, just question, why didn't you run

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Speaker 1: that to the other side of the court. And they're

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Speaker 1: like why. I was like, well, this particular player is

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Speaker 1: left handed. He likes hurling off the screen, you know,

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Speaker 1: moving to his left, and then if he shot fakes,

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Speaker 1: he likes one trouble to his left, that's a that's

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Speaker 1: a shot for him. He's like, well, we we had

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Speaker 1: never had though that that lineup in that position of

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Speaker 1: a game to run that play. And I thought to myself, well,

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Speaker 1: whose fault is that right? And again this is the

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Speaker 1: general philosophy have which is like, especially a coach, like,

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Speaker 1: so this is why I told told told I do it.

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Speaker 1: This sounds really arrogant. I didn't win him a national championship.

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Speaker 1: I didn't tell ma anything profound that he probably didn't

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Speaker 1: already know and challenge himself. But this is a thought

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Speaker 1: that I have, which is, you know, look, challenge yourself

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Speaker 1: to sometimes create artificial adversity. Take a look at a

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Speaker 1: different lineup, Take a look at guys at different spots,

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Speaker 1: not just in practice, not just in scrimmages, not just

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Speaker 1: in exhibition games, but in real games. Take a legit

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Speaker 1: look at a small lineup, Take a legit look at

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Speaker 1: a big lineup, the three point guards out there at once,

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Speaker 1: press what does it all look like? Because you you

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Speaker 1: don't know in a one and done scenario or playing

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Speaker 1: for your league championship, how somebody's gonna try and make

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Speaker 1: you play, or what type of matchup may ultimately expose

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Speaker 1: what you normally want to do. And if you don't

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Speaker 1: have a second gear or a third gear, or you know,

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Speaker 1: a different if you don't have that, then what you

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Speaker 1: do can become stale, and people spend all year figuring

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Speaker 1: out whoa what do you do? And how do we

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Speaker 1: do it? How do we they say, how do we

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Speaker 1: stop them from scoring? And how do we score against them?

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Speaker 1: You know, I understand the pragmatism to hey, listen, I

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Speaker 1: just want to win this game and don't win this game,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes you gotta play the long game. You gotta

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Speaker 1: develop a bench. You gotta develop a small line up.

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Speaker 1: You gotta develop a big line up. You gotta develop

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Speaker 1: a pressing line up. You gotta develop a what do

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Speaker 1: we do against the zone, and what do we do

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Speaker 1: when we can't do that against the zone. Because my

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Speaker 1: you know, my best shooter or my guy bet who

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Speaker 1: was best in the high post, he's in foul trip,

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Speaker 1: or he's sick, or he broke a pinky finger or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, I encouraged him to run more some

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Speaker 1: more ball screen stuff, because like Dane Fife is going

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Speaker 1: to tell us, kids grow up learning to play off

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Speaker 1: ball screens, and yet we're retraining them when they get

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Speaker 1: to college to teach him how to play motion game.

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Speaker 1: At some of these schools, you gotta sometimes play with

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Speaker 1: some of their strengths. Tony did that, But I I'm I.

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Speaker 1: I would readily admit I'm super annoying as a fan

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Speaker 1: and a friend and a basketball guy to so many

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Speaker 1: of these coaches. And I text them suggestions and things

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Speaker 1: that I think. We have long conversations, and generally it's

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Speaker 1: to continue to watch and evolve. And yeah, you always

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Speaker 1: have your base. You always have your core ethics. You

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Speaker 1: always have your offense, you always have your defense, but

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Speaker 1: there are gonna be times in which you gotta change.

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Speaker 1: I believe bo Ryan would have won a national championship

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Speaker 1: had he had a different way of playing the ball

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Speaker 1: screen against uh Tias Jones and Duke. But they always

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Speaker 1: kind of flat hedged and sunk and Tia Tias Jones

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Speaker 1: hit jump shot after jump shot jump shot, and people

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Speaker 1: can tell me, well, it's the officiating with Duke, Like, no,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. Tyas Jones just made shots because Wisconsin played

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Speaker 1: true Pac line defense and unlike Virginia. Virginia plays Pac

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Speaker 1: line principles, but they hard hedge ball screens. So that

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Speaker 1: that was my conversation with Tony Bennett. And you can

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Speaker 1: hear that conversation. It's entirety if you're downloaded part of

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Speaker 1: the Doug Gottlip Show. All right, let's get to our

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Speaker 1: guest of the week. His name is name five. He's

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Speaker 1: longtime assistant Michigan State. It's also a dear friend of mine.

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Speaker 1: Uh It was a tremendous player. Dad was a coach.

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Speaker 1: Dad is a coach, and I just think his his

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Speaker 1: story is a really really interesting one and it kind

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Speaker 1: of tells the story a little bit about Michigan State

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Speaker 1: basketball this year. Um. Okay, so let's let's start. Um.

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Speaker 1: I always love to do this. You grew up playing

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Speaker 1: basketball where? Well, like like, did you have a park?

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Speaker 1: There was a gym? Like your your first basketball memory

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Speaker 1: is where Larkston High School gym. My dad was high

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Speaker 1: school coach, and I just go to practice every day

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Speaker 1: and shoot on the side all day. Okay, So, uh

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Speaker 1: did the side hoops have fan backboards? Did they have

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Speaker 1: would backboards or regular glass backboards? I grew up on

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Speaker 1: glass backboards. That's a nice that's a nice gym right there.

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Speaker 1: To have side backboards that are nice glass, square, square backboards.

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Speaker 1: What what would uh you need? Your dad obviously a

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Speaker 1: longtime coach. I mean you even have a kid plays

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Speaker 1: for you now, played for your dad. What's he like

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Speaker 1: my dad? Yeah? As a coach, Well, he's nuts. He

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Speaker 1: grew up in the post World War Two era where

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Speaker 1: the heroes were General Patton, Hey guys and Howard Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, the the the Armies and the Navy's got

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Speaker 1: a lot of good athletes. Um, and so he was

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Speaker 1: he his favorite coach was probably at the time coach Night,

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Speaker 1: coach Bob Knight and so um, I wouldn't say he was.

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Speaker 1: He didn't use a lot of follow language or are

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Speaker 1: really yelling at people's faces, but he was. He was

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Speaker 1: very structured, very organized, and he believed in playing with

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Speaker 1: maximum effort every second you're out on the court. He

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Speaker 1: always told me if I don't care what you play,

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Speaker 1: I think he did care. But if you're gonna play,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna do it your best, whether it's checkers or basketball.

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Speaker 1: And and he held me to that. And my brothers, um,

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Speaker 1: now your brother Duke and just see you no, um

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Speaker 1: he not only he has better name than you, such

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Speaker 1: a good name that that one. It's memorable, right. And

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Speaker 1: he played in Michigan, and you know, growing up Doug

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Speaker 1: and was like, you know like that the negative nicknames

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Speaker 1: were like Doug slug or a Doug the little bug.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, no, no, no, call me Dugan.

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Speaker 1: Like there was a time when I was like, actually

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Speaker 1: it's more Duke, go by Dugan. They're like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's Dugan. Five. If you're not, you're not Dugan. Um,

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Speaker 1: what uh what's it like to have it? Like? Was

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Speaker 1: he a nice big my big brother Greg who's an

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Speaker 1: assistant coach organ State. Um, he was, he was. He

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Speaker 1: would vacillate between being an awesome big brother and a

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Speaker 1: terrible big brother. I think sometimes I was the friends

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Speaker 1: that he would keep by, like, Hey, we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: meet at Jordan Elementry and shoot hoops. Meet us there.

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Speaker 1: And then I go there and there literally be nobody

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Speaker 1: there right just to get rid of me or lock

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Speaker 1: me out of the house. Um pants me when we

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Speaker 1: were in our our friends pool and throw my my

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Speaker 1: shorts up on the roof and then invite other people over.

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Speaker 1: So what was your big brother like? Rotten? And uh,

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Speaker 1: because I'm sure there's young people listening, Um, I would

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Speaker 1: say that probably until Dugan went off to college. He

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Speaker 1: was six years older than I was. Uh, he was

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Speaker 1: probably the worst big brother that that a little brother

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Speaker 1: could have. And I was the baby Jeremy who's uh,

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Speaker 1: we're all three years apart, so Jeremy's the middle child

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Speaker 1: and and but Dugan was the worst big brother up

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Speaker 1: until about his nineteenth birthday. Even then, he came home

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Speaker 1: and during mid season and his freshman year at Michigan

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Speaker 1: and we were out shoveling off the basketball court in

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Speaker 1: our backyard. It was just a small court. We shoveled

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Speaker 1: it off and I hit him in the lip on

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Speaker 1: accident playing him one on one, and he pushed me

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Speaker 1: down and rubbed my face in the snow. And I

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Speaker 1: was probably about thirteen at the time. But um, there

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Speaker 1: wasn't a day that I didn't plan to somehow make

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Speaker 1: Dugan disappear in my in my in my youth. It's awesome. Um, well,

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Speaker 1: if if Coach Night was your dad's hero, and it's

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Speaker 1: interesting because I don't know if you know this. So

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Speaker 1: my dad was a walk on in the house state,

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Speaker 1: a JV player during the same here when Bob Knight

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Speaker 1: was there, and um, they were kind of on again,

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Speaker 1: off again friends. But he also looked up to Coach Night.

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Speaker 1: And although Coach Night you didn't really recruit me, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't really my dad never wanted me to play for him,

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Speaker 1: not because of how he was, but more because of

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Speaker 1: how he played. Like that wasn't But why didn't you

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Speaker 1: can go play for him? Well, Dugan, Um, my dad

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Speaker 1: played at Michigan. Um he was with Rudy tom Jonovich

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Speaker 1: and just after Kassie Russell. But my dad played at

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Speaker 1: Michigan and my dad played pro baseball with the Twins

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Speaker 1: and then came back and was an assistant at Michigan. Ironically,

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Speaker 1: he was on the bench when Michigan lost in and

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Speaker 1: in the seventy six National Championship. UM. And so when

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Speaker 1: Dugan was young, Dugan was born in seventy four, UM,

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Speaker 1: he experienced Michigan basketball up close and personal. And so

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Speaker 1: when he was young, four or five, six years old,

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Speaker 1: until my dad stopped coaching at Michigan, he was he

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Speaker 1: was those those were his heroes. So you know that

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Speaker 1: was ingrained in him when he was really young, and

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Speaker 1: we just we always went to Michigan football games, Michigan

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Speaker 1: basketball games. My dad was good friends with Bill Freeder,

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Speaker 1: and so I think it was just a foregone conclusion

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Speaker 1: that Dugan was going to go to Michigan and there

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Speaker 1: was never a doubt on on anybody else was exception

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Speaker 1: to maybe Michigan State, maybe Stanford. UM, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that Indiana recruited him very hard, if you want the truth. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So then what about you, Uh, you're a big score

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Speaker 1: in high school, right and UM, I'm getting and because

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Speaker 1: of because you're the respect that your dad had, because

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Speaker 1: of the because of your brother being a hell of

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Speaker 1: a player, like it wasn't you were very heavily recruited.

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Speaker 1: Why did you go to ee you? Well, it's funny

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Speaker 1: because the very first VHS tape that I that we ever,

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Speaker 1: that I ever watched. I remember getting our VCR when

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Speaker 1: we're in uh Or Lady, but they used to have

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Speaker 1: to press the button down. You used to have to

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Speaker 1: hold the there was the the it was like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know how you consider those buttons,

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Speaker 1: but you actually had to press the button down right.

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Speaker 1: The record button was always the last button you had

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Speaker 1: to pressed down right. And then the remote control had

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Speaker 1: a chord, so we did we did get one with

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Speaker 1: a remote, but it had a court. Um. So, so

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Speaker 1: the very first VHS tape that I watched was Michigan

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Speaker 1: versus Indiana for the Big Tent Idol and this was

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Speaker 1: Freeder versus Night. Um. I think Roy Tarpley was a senior,

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Speaker 1: Steve Alford was a junior. But anyway, I just remember

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Speaker 1: listening to Billy Packer and Brett Musburger talk about Bob

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Speaker 1: Knight with such interest, and it was fascinating just how

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Speaker 1: much they revered Coach Night and his personality and Steve

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Speaker 1: Alford UM and Michigan ended up killing him, but it's

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Speaker 1: stuck in my mind. And then came the movie Hoosiers

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Speaker 1: and that representative everything that my hometown pretty much was

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Speaker 1: small school, single school, UM, just me and my friends,

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Speaker 1: just dream of winning a state championship. That was my dream,

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Speaker 1: winning a state championship for my dad. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: either way, I think that, Uh, Indiana started recruiting my

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Speaker 1: sophomore year. Dan Docket's ironically was the first Indiana coach

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Speaker 1: to start recruiting me. But it was just a dream

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Speaker 1: of mine to uh, you know, when I was young,

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Speaker 1: to just go play basketball at Indiana for Coach Night.

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Speaker 1: And Coach Night I viewed as was similar to my dad.

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Speaker 1: His offense, his defense, his principles. My dad talked about

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Speaker 1: him a lot. UM. I felt like, you know, at

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Speaker 1: an alternate universe, Dougan probably would have went and played

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Speaker 1: for him too, if Michigan didn't exist. Because Coach Knight

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Speaker 1: represented what what the game was to hard work, um championships, um,

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Speaker 1: doing it right. You know, there wasn't a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of cheating going on in his program. It

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Speaker 1: felt like we were just going to get an honest

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Speaker 1: environment that was going to make you better. And that's

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Speaker 1: what it That's ultimately what it was even when I

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Speaker 1: went there. Okay, so you show up first day on

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Speaker 1: campus at Indiana. What do you remember. Well, my roommate

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Speaker 1: was Luke Wrecker and Kyle Hornsby from Louisiana. Kyle Hornsby

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Speaker 1: was a well just Uh he was a country boy,

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Speaker 1: and Luke Wrecker was was a sophomore. But the first

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Speaker 1: thing that I saw was coach and night. Uh Silver Lincoln.

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Speaker 1: It's the first thing I remember. And then uh moved

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Speaker 1: into my apartment. And then we played Open Jim and

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Speaker 1: I was fearless and and here I am a McDonald's

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Speaker 1: all American thinking I'm really good and and uh, what

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Speaker 1: made me good is that I understood the game. I

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Speaker 1: felt like I was way advanced. And you know that

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Speaker 1: as a son of the son of a coach, it's

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Speaker 1: a blessing and a curse. You know, we are advanced,

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Speaker 1: but then we think we know everything and we're stubborn. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I've gotten where I was by playing hard, playing

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Speaker 1: with effort, playing tough and soil. The first day of

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Speaker 1: Open Jim, I ended up squaring off with a with

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Speaker 1: a six eight two d and thirty five pounds, uh,

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Speaker 1: twenty three year old named William Gladness. We never we

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Speaker 1: nearly got him in Oklahoma State. I mean he was

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Speaker 1: a junior college transfer. We nearly got him in Oklahoma State.

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Speaker 1: We always like, we're like, man, we get William Gladness,

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Speaker 1: will be all right? Yeah, and and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was always thankful that guys broke it up before

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Speaker 1: there were any constance prone But I oh I did

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Speaker 1: was set a screen on him. Now will Is is

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Speaker 1: who's who's passed away? But um, great guy. But interesting

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Speaker 1: enough about will Is. When you'd set a back screen

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Speaker 1: on him, you know, screen him from behind, you had

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Speaker 1: to be careful because he had a bullet lodged in

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Speaker 1: his spine. And so apparently I hit that bullet, hit

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Speaker 1: something and turned around and he just said, gosh, that

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Speaker 1: wasn't even as as dirty as I could be, will

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Speaker 1: But uh he said, you hit my bullet. You hit

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Speaker 1: my bullet, and and and uh so that was what

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Speaker 1: I remember is my first day on campus, is the

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Speaker 1: whole team ready to fight me out of the gate. Um,

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Speaker 1: you guys, I mean, you guys had a pretty good team,

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Speaker 1: right yet, Mike Lewis, you had Kirk Haystein. Um, we

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Speaker 1: were loaded. We had a kind of talent. We just

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Speaker 1: didn't defend it very well. We had first rounders. Luke

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Speaker 1: Recker would have been a first rounder. He ended up

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Speaker 1: transfer and as you remembered it, Arizona and then to Otowa.

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Speaker 1: Lewis who is the all time assistant leader. Um A J. Guyton,

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Speaker 1: who was a McDonald or who was who was an

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Speaker 1: All American. Um, Kirk Hasten was a red shirt freshman

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Speaker 1: my freshman year. We were a bit young. I mean

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Speaker 1: Lewis Is Lewis and Guyton were older. But um, we

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Speaker 1: just we we didn't have a group that that we

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Speaker 1: didn't have a great team. We had a lot of

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Speaker 1: good parts, we just didn't have a great team. And

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Speaker 1: I think because, um, unfortunately, there were a lot of

427
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: Uh there are a lot of agendas, not necessarily from

428
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: the players, but from people who were attached to the

429
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: players that prevented us from really being a great team. You. Um,

430
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: you guys lost in two thousand of pepper Dye. And

431
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: I know that not just because I can read history,

432
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: but I was there. It was in Buffalo. We thought

433
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: we were gonna play you, and um, I you know,

434
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: like again, I only played against Indiana once. Here's my

435
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: here I'll give you. I'll give you the all my

436
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: Indiana stories I got, uh one. Charlie Miller stayed at

437
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: my house for a summer, maybe two summers. He obviously

438
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: proceeded you at I use for people don't remember. He's

439
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: a wing, left handed wing from Miami, played for Frank

440
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: Martin in high school and so he played with US

441
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: in AU before he signed Indiana. And um, so I

442
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: went to the was at the university. It was the

443
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: under eighteen and under twenty one like University Games teams

444
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: or whatever World Games team tryouts in Colorado Springs, and

445
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: I met Brian Evans and he told the greatest, most

446
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: unbelievable Bob Knight stories. I mean, just had a howling,

447
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 1: cackling whatever. Um. Anyway, then my freshman year, we get

448
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 1: ready to play Indiana at Notre Dame. And the year

449
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: before Notre Dame had beaten Indiana in South Bend. And

450
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: I think, don't hold me to this one, because I

451
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: haven't looked at the besets. I think they hit something

452
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: like fifteen threes, which at the time like even now

453
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: as a ridiculous number, but the time was unheard of,

454
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: and as you know, coach Knight was very It wasn't

455
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: until Texas Tech and late in his career where he

456
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: embraced the three point shot um. And so he basically

457
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: thought it was bullshit basketball. And he told everybody, you know, basically,

458
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: Notre Dame beat us on bullshit basketball. So we knew

459
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: they were. He was gonna be pissed because he didn't

460
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: forget a game. And uh, I, you had played Yukon

461
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: and the championship of the Great Alaska Shootout and you

462
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 1: can kicked the dog piss out of him, beat him

463
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: by like forty right. So we go down and they

464
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: hadn't played in like a week they got back from Alaska,

465
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they practiced like five times a day. Right,

466
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: you probably kicked them out of the locker rooms some

467
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: ship like that. And we go down and the night

468
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: before they had just put a new court down um

469
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: in the arena, okay, and in what is an alumni

470
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: hall or whatever, they they just put a new assembly all.

471
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, there's two assembly halls, right, there's Illinois and

472
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: and I you so assembly hall and so we go

473
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: in and like, if you've been and I know it's

474
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 1: been redone, this beautiful now. It wasn't beautiful then, but

475
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: it was just it was gigantic. It was the biggest

476
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: arena I had ever been in at that point in

477
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: time in life. It's like our first road game ever.

478
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: And the court was springing as hell and everybody is

479
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: throwing down bam bam bam. We're like, man, we're gonna

480
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: be good. And I was like, yeah, I don't know

481
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna be that good. So the things I'll never

482
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: forget about Coach night, um is you're warming up and

483
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: everybody and you're looking down the other end and there's

484
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: the candy striped pants and there's a damn and the

485
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: band is playing. You're like, damn, I'm playing Indiana on

486
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: National TV. Holy shit. And then out walks Bob Knight.

487
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: And I had met him a couple of times before,

488
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: but you forget he's a big gass dude, right. He

489
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: was like I don't know, six three six four, and

490
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: and he had that the red sweaters. And then you know,

491
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: all the fans have the they want to be, want

492
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: to be Bob Knights had the red sweaters and then

493
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: he would always have a he never he never came

494
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: out by himself. He already had a couple of dudes

495
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: with him, right, he rolled deep for a for a coach. Yeah,

496
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: so he comes out and and like literally everybody stops,

497
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: like we're in layup lines and dudes stop and look

498
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: like there's coach night, you know, silver hair. He comes

499
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: by and he shakes John Cloud's hands and go sit

500
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: down whatever, and you're like, you know, like it was

501
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: at Basketball Royalty at that time. So we're down, go ahead,

502
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: go ahead, we're down half and I'll never forget like

503
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: you're go running off the court and you go right

504
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: by the band and they're playing the fight song right,

505
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: and then the last part of the fight talking is

506
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: ah you and like the whole place is shaking and

507
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: the student section is going, don't comp out, don't come out,

508
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: don't come out. And I remember going the locker room

509
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: going like you know, guys, they say, we don't have

510
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: to come out in the second half, like we're cool,

511
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: we're good. So here, here's here's the here's here's here's

512
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: the story. I tell you all the time. So, um,

513
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: what was the big dude's name from Texas ship who's

514
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: a junior at the Yes first time, huh Andre Paterson? Right?

515
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: So um, we get our ass beat and I play Okay,

516
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: we go down back just out bad. I roll into

517
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: my dorm at Dylan Hall and I flip on ESPN

518
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: and it's right about to hit like the Sports Center guest,

519
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: then DNA, are you ready for Sports Center N? So

520
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: in in somewhere in the second half, I had driven

521
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: in and tried to shoot a floater over Andre Patterson.

522
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: Part of it was it was probably a little bit

523
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: of a weak floater. Part of it was it was

524
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: at Indiana, so it's goaltending. I feel it wasn't called.

525
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: And part of it is if you've been to Assembly Hall,

526
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: you know they have like three rows of stands that

527
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: are low, and then there's the wall, and then there's

528
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: the second and then there's the second level, and then

529
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: the third level was so far out there, I don't

530
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: even know how you see the floor. He didn't block

531
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: my shot. He caught my shot, and I felt like

532
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: through it in the direction of John Cougar Mellencamp, who

533
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: was sitting there and and and it was at insult

534
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: to injury when he caught the ball and threw it

535
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: out of bounds. He goes, no, right, know, I get

536
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: back right remember, like grew up dreaming of like love

537
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: Bob Knight, dreaming of playing maybe at four against Bob Knight.

538
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: My dad has notes, copious notes from West point of

539
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: going to his you know, and telling stories about the US.

540
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: His jump shot was called the blue dart when he

541
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: played at Ohio State, Like I know everything about Bob Knight.

542
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: And we get an as we catch an ass with

543
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: and by like forty at IU and are you ready

544
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: for sports? Enter Dan, Dan, Dan, No, And there's my shot.

545
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: There's my flow. Do you see forty four from Notre

546
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: Dame Gottlieb and Andre Patterson's face laughing as he throws

547
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: a shot in the direction that that's my US story. Anyway,

548
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: go ahead, you're the lead. I was leading. I was lead.

549
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: They did not bury the lead. Anyway. You're saying about

550
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: coach Knight, the thing, the thing that stuck out about you.

551
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: You mentioned how big he is, and when I was well,

552
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: I committed to Indiana, okay, and then he came up

553
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: to visit me sometime late fall and were still in

554
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: football season, just may have just finished. But we're making

555
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: the transition to basketball season. But I was a football

556
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: player too, and it's probably my first love. But I

557
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: had interest in playing QB at Indiana. Cam Cameron was

558
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: the coach at the time, and I said, coach, you

559
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: know I'm coming. Just back then, if you signed in

560
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: the November early period, you um, I couldn't play football,

561
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: that fault. But if you signed in the late period,

562
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: then you could. Weird rule. But I said, I'd like

563
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: to sign in the spring so I have an option

564
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: to playing football. And there was just dead silence. He

565
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: looked at the ground, he looked up. He pulled up

566
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: as he always wore elastic band pants. I remember noticing that.

567
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: But he pulled up a chair and he lifted his

568
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: pant leg up to his knee and he said, you

569
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: see these pants. You see this lake? Yeah, yeah, coach,

570
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: you see this calf. Now that's a damn football cast.

571
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: I'm a football player. This is a football leg. I

572
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: look at your scrawny legs, I said, yep. I said,

573
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what you come to Indiana. You're coming

574
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: to play basketball, and that's it. And I looked at

575
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: my dad, who was in the athletic director by coach

576
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: at the time, he didn't have much to say, kind

577
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: of kind of left me out to dry. I said, Okay,

578
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: sounds good, coach, So needless to say, I signed in

579
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: the early November signing period. But I remember that leg

580
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: that he was definitely that the leg of a tight end,

581
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: maybe a defensive tackle, but he was a big fellow.

582
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: Um so you beat by Pepperdine. That was his last

583
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: game as head coach. What what was it like to

584
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: be a what was like to be a player during

585
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: what was just a crazy turbulent time at IU, Because again,

586
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: like the lens we look at Coach Night now is

587
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: so different than the various lenses of his time at Indiana,

588
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: like eighties, early nineties, like he would have run for

589
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: governor unopposed even an exactly but Indiana, I mean, you

590
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: would like nine outside of Purdue fans, like of people

591
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: are going to vote for for for Coach Night. Obviously

592
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: it wasn't he wasn't viewed the same. But like you

593
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: guys still had good players, and you still had good teams.

594
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, the the Neil Read

595
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: video appears and and the interviews and all that stuff

596
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: that that went bad what was that? What do you

597
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: remember about that time? Well, I always tell people now,

598
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: you know, mostly when you catch Coach Night in his

599
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: worst moments, they're usually in a game, and that's that's

600
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: the big stage, but behind the scene. And I'd say

601
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: for the most part, being very complimentary and practice pretty

602
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: easy to work with. In practice, his frustration was all

603
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: about effort. When when there was a problem, it was

604
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: usually about effort. It wasn't about a turnover, a miss shot. Ah,

605
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't about anything that that you could control. Yeah,

606
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: you couldn't control. And so mostly complimentary, but they put

607
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: the zero tolerance on them. Okay, in the spring they

608
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: as in the administration. I don't have any problem with that.

609
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 1: You know, if you've got a problem with somebody, you

610
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: gotta you gotta deal with it the way you see fit.

611
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: And I was it fair enough? Fair? I don't know,

612
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: but they did. So we roll into early September and

613
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: I remember on the I woke up Sunday. I woke

614
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: up Sunday morning and my roommate had called and he said, hey,

615
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: they're gonna fire Coach Night. So this was after he

616
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: grabbed a student's arm and addressed told him to calm,

617
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: Mr Knighter Coach Night, but um, so we drove up

618
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: in Indianapolis for the trustee meeting. President um Brand announced

619
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: that he was firing him. And it was funny because

620
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: we drove back to Bloomington's and Edward Or came over

621
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: to our house from Espnum met with us and he

622
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: can't remember any cats. I still to this day talked

623
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,959
Speaker 1: to Andy Katz about that day. Andy Kats was there,

624
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: Um there were just that there were so many things,

625
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: and then the students march on the President's house at

626
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: the time, and h I walked over that to that

627
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: just to see what was going on, and uh, it was.

628
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: It was chaos. I mean you'd think there was a

629
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: two going on. And to see the passion and the

630
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: anger and the frustration that that people had for for

631
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: this this figure. Um it was incredible. And I know

632
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: myself and my teammates. I remember being in the locker

633
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: room Jared Jeffreys Ah Sunday night when Coach Knight came

634
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: back thanked Coach Night, and I remember Coach Night going

635
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: into the to them a little area outside the locker

636
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: room and overheard him tell a friend of his that

637
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: he couldn't face us as in, I can't do this.

638
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to have to face these guys.

639
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to leave him. And you saw you're

640
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: able to see Coach Night vulnerable, able to see how

641
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: much we mattered, how much the school mattered, and right

642
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: or wrong, it was his time he left. Um but

643
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: it was pretty um it was pretty emotional because a

644
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: lot of us had had dreamed of growing up and

645
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: playing for that man, whether it's Indian or not, that

646
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: was my dream. And I was upset, I was frustrated,

647
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: but um we uh it was a pretty uh surreal

648
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: time for a bunch of eighteen to two year old

649
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: kids that didn't know which end was up anyway. Okay,

650
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: so what what happened was there? Did you guys get together?

651
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: Because because um, I just think that the leadership of

652
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: that moment is is fascinating and um like, robviously it

653
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: was it was today you guys would all be in

654
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: the transfer portal, but that it wasn't that way then

655
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: and somebody had to have dudes over. Like I I

656
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: heard a story Brian Evans. I never remember that. I

657
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: never forget the story that, uh, you know, one year

658
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: he kicked him out He would always kick you guys

659
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: out of locker room, put all your ship in the

660
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: hallway right and you wouldn't have they wouldn't have practice,

661
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: but you're supposed to run practice on your own own.

662
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: And his car and his wife would come down and

663
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: talk to Coach Knight loves you guys like it was

664
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: like a It was. It was just one of the

665
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: things that he would do. But that sometimes in order

666
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: to get away, you know, they go they go to

667
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: a manager's house and all the players would hang out together,

668
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: and they there was some tape and you tell me

669
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 1: if there's real, there's some tape of Coach Night getting

670
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: run over in practice where you know, you're transitioning from

671
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: offense to defense, and he forgot and he got caught

672
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: up in the like the whitewash, and and he's like, man,

673
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, we'd have a bad day. We go

674
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: to a manager's house and we watched that tape over

675
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: and over and over again him getting run over and

676
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: laugh our ass off. So so what do you remember about, Like,

677
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: how did you because you guys stayed together and you

678
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: end up going to a final four, I know what,

679
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: everybody didn't stay. How did it how did it play out? Well,

680
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: I was transferred back to Michigan State and I went

681
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: over to coach Knights maybe Monday, so we got fired

682
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: on September tenth, so probably September eleven or twelve. I

683
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: remember being in his kitchen and just saying, coach, look

684
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: of UM, you know, if if, if they're not keeping

685
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: the rest of the staff, then then I'm going to

686
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: go because I don't want to play for a new

687
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: staff when we've heard rumors of different coaches coming in

688
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: and um, you know, I wasn't sure what was going

689
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,959
Speaker 1: to happen with the rest of the team in terms

690
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: of who's coming and gone. We'd all a lot of

691
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: us said we were going to transfer. I think some

692
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: of them were bluff and I at the time wasn't

693
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: because I wanted I was okay, I was at piece

694
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: with coach Knight being removed, but I didn't want to

695
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: lose the rest of the staff, that being Mike Davis

696
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: and John Treeloor. Pat Pat Knight was the other assistant.

697
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: I assumed he was leaving. UM, so coach Knight seemed

698
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: to think that, um, they weren't going to retain Mike

699
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: Davis or who's at University Detroit now or John treelo

700
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: Or who's a scout with Phoenix UM coach, and I

701
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: didn't think they were going to retain them either, so

702
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: they said, well, help me transfer. And it's funny because

703
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: there's so many coaches that come up that have them

704
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 1: up over the years that coach Night actually reached out

705
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 1: to and uh, but I said, can you help me transfer?

706
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 1: And he said you sure this is what you want

707
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: to do? And I said, yeah, I don't. I don't

708
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: want to be a part of a new staff and

709
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: I'm not sure who's who's going to stay, and it

710
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter, you know, I don't want to be

711
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: here party. I don't want to change things. So you know,

712
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: I went back. I left right away and announced I

713
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: was transferred. Meanwhile, Jared Jefferies comes up to me and says, well, hey,

714
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: you know, I'm hearing that they might keep Mike Davis,

715
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: John True and coach Davis and coach Trielor and let

716
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: them do an interim just like oh Man. So a

717
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: long story short, I decided I was going to stay,

718
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: and Kirk Hasten stayed and Jared Jefferies was a freshman

719
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: that year. UM Tom Coverdale. We had a we had

720
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: a really good core group that you know, over the

721
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 1: course of two years, became a damn good team even

722
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: though haste and left. It was funny because Hasten was

723
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: really instrumental in me staying and and not that I mattered.

724
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: I averaged five points a game, but um, you know,

725
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: I was just, I guess a vet and they needed

726
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: some vets. But Hasten went pro after that year, and

727
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: Haston was the one that talked me into staying and

728
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: I said, we're gonna win a national championship in the

729
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: next two years. Since when Haston left, I didn't speak

730
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: to him for a whole summer. But I guess looking back,

731
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: you've got a chance to be drafted. I think it

732
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: was fifteen or sixteen to the Charlotte Hornets. Probably should

733
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: have left, but um, yeah, we we had a good

734
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: court group. Jared Jefferies covered Oh Kyle Hornsby, Um Jared Otle,

735
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: we were. We were. I don't have any stories like

736
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: like Brian Evans does about rallying over the our coach

737
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: getting run over, but um, I do think that, uh

738
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: you know, we we rallied on Coach Night's behalf and

739
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: because he was still important to us and still is.

740
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: And you combine that with with Coach Davis and John

741
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: tree Lor putting us in positions to succeed. It was

742
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: it was a great recipe. But the other thing it was,

743
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: it was it was some guys that were committed, committed

744
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: to winning, committed to Indiana. If you could the three

745
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: things you mean, give me three things that Coach Night

746
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: taught that you believe into this day. You know what?

747
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: I think that even as I worked for coaches. Oh,

748
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: the one thing you can't allow as a coach is

749
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: is UM is a bad practice and a bad practice

750
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: from a team. But it usually starts from somewhere. Does

751
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 1: it start from your leadership amongst your players, does it

752
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: start from a player or does it start where? Where

753
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: does it stem from? And Coach Knight would never let up.

754
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 1: It was a relentless pursuit of of excellence. And if

755
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: there was a bad practice from a player UM, he

756
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: dealt with it. He dealt with it in a way

757
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: that that would typically make sure that it wouldn't happen again.

758
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: And uh so there was no let up. And I

759
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: remember being in practice and it was like a trance

760
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: because you had to be focused. You had to be intense,

761
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 1: you had to know what you were doing. And when

762
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: practice ended, it was it wasn't relief, but it was

763
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: what did I just do for the last two hours?

764
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: Because of that? You know, for for a one or

765
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: eighteen year old to maintain focus for for that two hours,

766
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: for that long period of time is I don't think

767
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: it could happen today, and it barely could happen back

768
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: when I played in the early to late nineties, early

769
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: two thousand's. Yeah, it's interesting because we used to our

770
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: practices were long and I'll never forget so the old

771
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: GALLAGHERI but used to have a clock, uh in up

772
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: you know, behind the stands in one of the end zones.

773
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: And remember this is a gym, it's not really an arena,

774
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: but it used to be a clock. And guys would

775
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: you know, they're huffing and puff and they'd look up

776
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: and we didn't. We didn't. We didn't condition, you know,

777
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 1: coaches thing. You know occasionally during Christmas break we do

778
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: some we do some running, and we do running as punishment,

779
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 1: but we never did conditioning. Right when I was at

780
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: that Notre Dame, we can, uh, I thought John McLeod

781
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 1: an interesting way of doing conditioning. He had four quarters

782
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: of practice and after at the end of every quarter

783
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: of practice you would do a conditioning drill or two

784
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: and then get water. That's how he did it, whereas

785
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: Coach Sutton like, we never did any conditioning. And his

786
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: whole thing was like, you can make it through my practice.

787
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 1: You can make it through a game. And and I

788
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: I never yet like you'd be on your shorts and

789
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 1: guys that start looking up and we would. Part of

790
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: the problem was we had a bunch of and I

791
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: think you guys are the same thing. We had a

792
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: bunch of smartasses. And you know, you get to like

793
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: two and a half three hours and be like le

794
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: Tony rule right and uh and and coach would it

795
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 1: would it would without any quay would happen a couple

796
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: of times the year where he got he'd tell late

797
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: Pat Noise, one of the guys, who's snake who died

798
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: in playing crops? He got snake. You go up there,

799
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: you cover up that clock. You got a bunch of

800
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: clock watchers here, you got a bunch of clock But

801
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: we came here to work. We came. It is the

802
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: hardest thing you're gonna do when live, you cover up

803
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: that damn clock, and sure enough there'd be like a

804
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: white sheet over the clock, and guys are trying to

805
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: like look through the white sheet, like, man, I think

806
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: we've been here three hours. Manun this we gotta get

807
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: out of here, right. But it's it's really amazing because

808
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: now if and I don't know what you and and

809
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: we used to make fun of of Kansas because Kansas,

810
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: you know, they would dial back their practice a bunch

811
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: that was Roy Williams thing was like fresh legs. Man,

812
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: we go, they go like forty five minutes an hour

813
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: when they get to February and coach, you wouldn't have

814
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: any of that ship. And uh, but now I do

815
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 1: think you need you're better off going twice a day

816
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: for an hour and fifteen hour and a half just

817
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 1: because guy's attention spans aren't dead long, let alone coaches

818
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: attention spans aren't dead long. Well, that's right, and I'd

819
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: say this too. There's a lot more for head coaches

820
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: to have to do now than than there was. And

821
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's recruiting alumni media. Um, oh, and

822
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: don't forget about your own family. Um. You just wonder

823
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: how how a guy like coaches or coach k Uh

824
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: processes things throughout it out to day. I mean, um,

825
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: but I'd say the other the other thing that um

826
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: that I won't forget is we would always wonder what

827
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: kind of mood um coach Night was in each day.

828
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: It always varied and it could be there were so

829
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 1: many different spots on the on the spectrum that he

830
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: could be. But being in this business now, I think

831
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: it was just his way of of not allowing us

832
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: to be comfortable and finding things too to keep us

833
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: on our toes, which isn't out of the ordinary in

834
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: in um sports or the working world, I don't think.

835
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: I think good bosses find ways to keep people motivated

836
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: without driving them away, and those that understand that get better.

837
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: Those that don't look for excuses. Um. But there there

838
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: were so many different personalities. When you talk about split

839
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: split personality, it just multiple splits. But I think looking back,

840
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 1: it's probably you know, the the old method to his madness.

841
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: And then the third thing was a lot of people.

842
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: I mean when you think of Coach Night, you think

843
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: of motion offense, right, I think people do, but there

844
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: was differently different types of motion. Right you guys would

845
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: have you know, you'd have the baseline runner, you'd have

846
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: the triangle right. There was a couple of different times

847
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,399
Speaker 1: go ahead. I think you know, we didn't have out

848
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: of bounds plays either, just guys figured it out. But

849
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: the attention to detail on the defensive end, I think

850
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 1: where Coach Night was was his best. And I think

851
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: the motion was just a toy. I mean, motion allowed

852
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: him to coach defense more. And you know, I argue

853
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,439
Speaker 1: with coaches oh all the time, you know, whenever he

854
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: talks about how they used to whip us. And I said, now,

855
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: keep in mind, coach I was for and for against

856
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 1: Michigan State while I was Indiana at Indiana. And he'll

857
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: even make the comment, well, you know, you guys, you

858
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: guys were motion and you were hard to prepare for.

859
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: But you guys, did you guys prepare that much on defense?

860
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: And I said, coach, there's a reason why we beat you,

861
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: the mighty Michigan State. I mean, and and that's because

862
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty similar to what we do here. But

863
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 1: I'd say that he doesn't get enough credit. Coach Night

864
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 1: doesn't get enough credit for his defensive preparation and the

865
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 1: way his teams defended. Now in his later years, they struggle.

866
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: There's a lot of turnover and players and I don't

867
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: think he was getting the players that he really he

868
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: needed to. But the defense is something that's underrated as

869
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: as I look back on coaches career. Okay, so so

870
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: we we did, I guess for spaceline. We did post

871
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: a post double. We worked on we that we call it,

872
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, ceiling h We would always we would seal

873
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: off the lane you drove baseline and come over and

874
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: help and take a chart and trapped that and then

875
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: whoever was guarding the ball, you were the you were

876
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 1: the rotate man, rotate man, or you were the flyer, right,

877
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: and we work on you know, you know, scrambled drill

878
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: and out of a double, out of a double team

879
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 1: in the low post when the ball's reversed, scramble as well.

880
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 1: But I'll never forget again. One of my first practice

881
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: of oaklahom State, Um, I I said, coach, um, which

882
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: which way we forced him? And he's like, what do

883
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: you mean? I was like, well, we forcing baseline before

884
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: the middle. It was like neither like noral coach like,

885
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: where's the help? He's like college man guard his man.

886
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: I was like all right, coach, that's great. But if

887
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: he happens to go by me, which way would you

888
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: prefer he goes by me, to the baseline or to

889
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 1: the middle. Was like, neither of you. He goes by you.

890
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: The only places you're going to sitting next to me

891
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: and help me coach, right, it was. It was a

892
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 1: little simpler then, right, Like we did have in bounced

893
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: placement and and I talked about this mile si'mon enjoying

894
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: enjoined me last week in the pot and he was like, dude,

895
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: we had three plays like Luke never brought up a

896
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: white board, Coach Sutton never drew on a white board

897
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: or whatever. I understand, But um, you guys did help

898
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: to the middle, right was it was the help from

899
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: the middle of the help from the because like the

900
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: players kind of and the assistant coach like, well, what

901
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: coach really wants is like you don't want you, but

902
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna help from the baseline. It was

903
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: almost like whispering, you know, um what what was the

904
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: general defensive philosophy that was so good? Baseline? It was

905
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: baseline And it was funny because it just had changed

906
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 1: right around that era. To me, um, a lot of

907
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: it was metal and then it just had changed to baseline,

908
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: probably somewhere in the mid nineties or I'm sorry, late

909
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,439
Speaker 1: eighties and early nineties. Um, before that, I don't think

910
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 1: there was defense. And I listened to my dad talked

911
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: about when he played in the seventies, Um said, we

912
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,399
Speaker 1: didn't We didn't have defensive principles. Guard your man and

913
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: do a good job. That was that was that he's

914
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: sting right there. Uh, and uh, I want you to

915
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: turn his ass to the glass. Excuse me. And we're

916
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: in Arkansas and we had the triplets now Marvin delf

917
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: and Alvin Robinson, and and we would we we they

918
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: would get into you when you cross mid court, and

919
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: we wanted to make that point guard turn his ass

920
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: to the glass. Brother, you can guard like that. You

921
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: can play for me anyway. Yeah, there was no. There

922
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 1: wasn't anything like, hey, how are we playing this ball screen?

923
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: Like we're gonna you know who we're gonna We're gonna

924
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: ice it, we're gonna trave it like. No, you guard

925
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: your man? Okay, score, Yes, that's generally good. That's good

926
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 1: coaching right there. You know what, I always give my

927
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: dad crap about going against Rick Mount, who he denies

928
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: he had to guard him. But Rick Mount got fifty

929
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: two against him against Michigan and beat him. And uh,

930
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: that's without that's without three point the three point shot.

931
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: How does that happen? How does that happen? How does

932
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 1: the guy score fifty two points without the three point

933
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: shot in the Have you ever seen Rick Mount shooting basketball? Yeah? Yeah,

934
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: But but do you think Rick Mount would do it

935
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: do it in today's game? Yeah? See, I don't. And

936
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: that's not to say that Rick Mount wasn't incredible, but

937
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 1: I mean the defense today is a lot different. I'd

938
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: agree that. Listen. I remember going to Final four's and

939
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,919
Speaker 1: Rick Mount would do shooting clinics and I was like, Dad,

940
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: does he ever miss? And He's like, nope, not mean

941
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: it was I was unbelievable. And then you had in

942
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: the three point line. Okay, So, uh, what do you

943
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: remember about the Final four playing in it? Well? I

944
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 1: remember the flag. Okay, this was a year at nine

945
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: eleven and it's two thousand and two, and I remember

946
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: the flag okay, and it was it was a lot bigger.

947
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: That's the flag that's flying on the World Trade Center

948
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: near the World Trade Center and it had the burn

949
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: marks and you could smell it, and they had the

950
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: firefighters and policemen that were at ground zero, and um,

951
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: it was it was as powerful as as being in

952
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: the presence of of of Coach Night or it was

953
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 1: just it was. It was an incredible rush and otherwise

954
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: and we were there. We were there to win the

955
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: game the games and and again it's for for for

956
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: guys that we had a lot of juniors and seniors. Um,

957
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 1: the intensity, the focus there there, there wouldn't aside from

958
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 1: my kids being born, there's not a better moment. There's

959
00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: not a bigger rush, There's not a bigger um a

960
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: better time. You know that the eighteen to twenties. You

961
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: always hear people tell stories, the older people about the

962
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: good old days. You know, my grandpa passed away, but

963
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 1: his eighteen nineteen twenties, World War Two, Normandy other Grandpa, Philippines.

964
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 1: You know, just the time when when you were young,

965
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: you were you were out from under the umbrella of

966
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: your parents and it was just an incredible time. In

967
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,439
Speaker 1: the Final four it was in Atlanta that that year,

968
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: and you know, there are a lot of great stories

969
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:44,800
Speaker 1: that came from it. But ultimately Doug I think you

970
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: remember the smiles that put on people's faces. And I

971
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: don't remember much from the games, um, but the smiles

972
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: that we put on people's faces, especially Indiana, that it

973
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: that was real. From the coach night firing, Um, we

974
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: gave the people from a sports perspective, from a basketball perspective,

975
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: something to smile about. We probably weren't supposed to be there.

976
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,399
Speaker 1: I think we were a four seed that year. We

977
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: beat Duke who had eight first rounders. Um, that's well,

978
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 1: I think it's insane. Yeah. I don't know they had

979
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,439
Speaker 1: eight first rounders. We had one CB A draft pick

980
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 1: that was me. So I guess you could say we

981
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: have one first rounder, right yeah, c b A Yeah. Listen,

982
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 1: I was a usb L number I was the first.

983
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 1: I was the first overall pick of the usb L.

984
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: What team Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Oklahoma storm in Oklahoma number one.

985
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: We're all pick a lot of fighting for that pick.

986
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: They traded up. There's at least one back that was exchanged. Huh.

987
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: You and Chris Weber same thing in common? Yeah, um,

988
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 1: well first round picks. Um, but you know you just

989
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: you see those smiles and just an incredible time. Okay,

990
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 1: So how about this one. Um, you you did fix

991
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: your shot or your the like look, you had a

992
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: little bit of the same thing I had, only you

993
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: fixed it. By the end of your college career, I

994
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: couldn't write like you were a big score Mr. Basketball,

995
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: State of Michigan. Everybody wanted you. And then you couldn't

996
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: make a shot in college until your senior year when um, again,

997
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: like now you would probably shoot twice as many threes,

998
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: but you became nearly three point shooter and you actually

999
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: became a threat. How did you? How did you fix it?

1000
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: You know what? There there's a ton of variables that

1001
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: go into that, But I think I first had to

1002
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: understand a couple of things. One of the physiology of it.

1003
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: What's happening to I mean I Mike Davis, one of

1004
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 1: my favorite people on Earth, took over for Coach Night

1005
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: when he was fired. UM coach and Act Detroit used

1006
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: to call me quarter till and quarter till just meant

1007
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: when the lights turned on. I was great until the

1008
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: lights turned on and it was game time. Not out

1009
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: of the ordinary for a young player and a j

1010
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 1: Guyton used to call me the practice all Americans says,

1011
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: I was the best, best Pat practice player in the country,

1012
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: and then the lights turned on, and you know what,

1013
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 1: it's ultimately it Ultimately it's it's choking. You're choking. I

1014
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: like to look at it as as overcaring and put

1015
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: too much pressure on myself, but to understand the physiology component,

1016
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 1: like what is happening to your body? Um, I would

1017
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: find myself so worked up before the game, so nervous

1018
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 1: about ah not doing what I was capable of doing,

1019
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: so frustrated, so anxious that I would be exhausted before

1020
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: the game, and you know, it would just manifest itself

1021
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: into everything would be dribbling, would be anything that involved

1022
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: the small muscles that the little muscles in your your fingers,

1023
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: your arms, anything that would would affect the small muscles,

1024
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: the finesse muscles, similar to what a what would affect

1025
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: a pitcher or quarterback, you know, the big muscle things

1026
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: like running and and staying in a defensive stance. And

1027
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: it didn't involve the finesse part of it. I was fine,

1028
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: but it was small things, and so now what did

1029
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: I do to change it? My senior guy, I had

1030
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: always worked on my shot. I'd always worked on my

1031
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: game a lot, a lot of shots a lot of

1032
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: time outside of practice. UM, you know, I think it.

1033
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 1: I'd like to say I just stopped caring, but I

1034
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: didn't stop caring. UM. I just think that, Uh, you

1035
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,919
Speaker 1: never know when it's going to click, and you've got

1036
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: to put in the work. But it just finally clicked.

1037
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: And I think part of it was, UM, just better perspective,

1038
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: just having better perspective that The other part was I'd

1039
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 1: seen every psychologist talked to, every coach, talked to every um,

1040
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: the person you could think of to try to try

1041
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: to gain that that perspective. But I think ultimately it

1042
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 1: was just UM, the pressure went away after I decided

1043
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: that the game was important, but it wasn't my life

1044
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 1: and it didn't define me. And there were breathing techniques

1045
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: and there were different things that you could do, UM,

1046
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: but it didn't define me. And how how often you've

1047
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: been a coach now for your entire professional life, you know,

1048
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: you did one year of hope and then how often

1049
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 1: do you see this occurring where you have guys with

1050
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: what I think the layman would term a performance anxiety.

1051
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 1: I would say that everybody has some some some degree

1052
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: of it. And the best example I can give you

1053
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: is something that I know you struggled with, and that

1054
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:37,439
Speaker 1: was that was free throws. And so if you take

1055
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: somebody in the game at the free throw line versus

1056
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: what they're shooting practice, it always is different. It's always

1057
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: different with that. My deal was so I take quick,

1058
01:01:55,640 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 1: take quick, kind of psychoic. Sorry interrupt um. So it's

1059
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 1: mine started to manifest itself in high school, very late

1060
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: at the free throw line and I was a big

1061
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 1: score and I never forget. We were playing at the

1062
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: Pond and Anaheim which is now the Honda Center, playing Domingus,

1063
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 1: who I lost to my junior year and my senior

1064
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 1: they were loaded Tayshaun Prince and Tommy Prince. Tashaw was

1065
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: just like a freshman Tommy Prince and Kenny Bruner like

1066
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 1: they had a squad. And I remember getting to the

1067
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 1: free throw line in the Pond, and I had always

1068
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,439
Speaker 1: been like the end of the game, hold the ball,

1069
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: get fouled, make free throws right, and like I just

1070
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: all of a sudden felt off. I felt like this

1071
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 1: is not where I'm supposed to be. And then I

1072
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: went to Notre Dame and I was a hundred and

1073
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 1: sixty pounds and I mean I as cocky as ship

1074
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: like I was, I'm gonna be starting point guard, and um,

1075
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: we started like lifting and we were, you know, taking

1076
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: it back then CREA team was big whatever and I

1077
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: don't know what waterway or whatever. By the time we

1078
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 1: got to our first game, I was won seventy seven

1079
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 1: and I was yoked right man muscles nineteen yoked, But

1080
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: I was. I felt like my body was tight, and

1081
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: I felt like I felt heavier. And suddenly I went

1082
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 1: from being able to dunk to like, all right, now

1083
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: I'm like Nick in the rim and and that hurt man.

1084
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 1: And then I was a little bit you know, you

1085
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, your freshman year, like I was a little

1086
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 1: lost offensively. Now for me, the free throw thing became

1087
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: kind of the It wasn't until I got really to

1088
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 1: to Oklahoma State where it manifests itself to any shooting

1089
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: where I just had a fear of failure and so

1090
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: I wouldn't shoot and I would um but um, but

1091
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 1: I also remember, um, I remember like I could do

1092
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: but I was the opposite. I could do anything on

1093
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 1: a basketball court. I just couldn't get myself to actually

1094
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: shoot like I can normally shoot, you know, and uh

1095
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: and then it become like a self fulfilling prophecy where

1096
01:03:57,800 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: I wouldn't believe it was gonna go in, so wouldn't

1097
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 1: go in, and so you take it and it would

1098
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: look bad shooting. It would get worse than you feel bad,

1099
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 1: and it was it was really. I mean, I don't

1100
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: know how you feel about your first three years in college.

1101
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 1: Like I've never shown my my son the tape of

1102
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 1: me playing college because I'm so embarrassed by how people

1103
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 1: guarded me, because I'm like, of course I can shoot,

1104
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean, Um, it's so hard.

1105
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: And I was, I was so as good as I was.

1106
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 1: And I also had a coach I didn't know how

1107
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 1: to coach me, like I love Eddie Suddon, but he

1108
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: didn't understand what was going on with me mentally, where

1109
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 1: I just needed somebody to go like, hey, dude, you

1110
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: miss it, don't worry about it, you're not taking bad shots.

1111
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: Get your asks back on defense. But instead he take

1112
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 1: me out, and then I I never wanted to come out.

1113
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: I thought I felt like coming out of a game

1114
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 1: was punishment, and so I know I would just like ship,

1115
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 1: if I don't shoot, then he's not gonna take me

1116
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: out and then I'm good, whereas all the guys on

1117
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: my team are like, shit, chake the shock you missed,

1118
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 1: don't worry about. It's gonna put you back in. And

1119
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: I just couldn't get over that mental hurdle. Yeah, well

1120
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 1: it is. It's a case of just you're overcaring. And

1121
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: and it's funny because mine started and I it's cool too.

1122
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 1: And it started at the free throw line. I shot

1123
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 1: an air ball and then next thing I know, um

1124
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: the crowd yell and air ball and whatever. So then

1125
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:11,480
Speaker 1: I got to the point wherever you do, don't airball.

1126
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: So then I'm just hoping and praying it hits the rim.

1127
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 1: As the year went on, and it was my sophomore year,

1128
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: and we lost a chance at the state championship because

1129
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: of it. And you know, if I could pinpoint exactly why,

1130
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 1: and I could look back in like six and seventh

1131
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 1: grade and say, gosh, I could make breeze rolls better

1132
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 1: than I could in college in seventh grade, and and

1133
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 1: so you know, the pressure gets to everybody. There's varying degrees.

1134
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 1: I kind of look at it as three types, you know,

1135
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: so the so the worst one in baseball is an

1136
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 1: easy one to look to, UM would be the Steve

1137
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 1: Sachs or the Chuck Chuck nob Blocker. The guy that's

1138
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 1: going through it right now is the picture John Lester

1139
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 1: and what I'm for the Cubs, And I think he's

1140
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 1: still with it now. I think he left. Who's he

1141
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 1: with I don't know, but he got to where he

1142
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: could actually kind of kind of throw in the first

1143
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 1: base but right, but it's the underhand would be something awkward.

1144
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 1: And I was surprised and I think you agree with

1145
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 1: this that it didn't spill into his pitching. Nope, and

1146
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 1: in the first base, right, and so the fascination of it, um,

1147
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: where we're uh, that would be the worst though we're

1148
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 1: Steve Sacks or Chuck Noblocker. Remember Rich Ankie for the

1149
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 1: Cardinals watched it unfold for my eyes when he was

1150
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 1: pitching against the Braves, I think it was the NLCS

1151
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 1: and he just it just he just went to hell

1152
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 1: right front of us. And uh, he ended up coming

1153
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 1: back as a hitter, but never it was an elite,

1154
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: elite pitcher. And so there there's those. But I think

1155
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 1: most most most players, UM spend there there pressure, you know,

1156
01:06:55,840 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 1: spend there in the middle area of it, they could

1157
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 1: just get over the hump. As far as dealing with

1158
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 1: the pressure, they would be elite. They would be pros,

1159
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 1: you know. And and then there are the pros that

1160
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: that really can handle the pressure. But you know, Shock

1161
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 1: for example, Okay, in my my opinion, Shock didn't miss.

1162
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:22,480
Speaker 1: Shaq couldn't hit a free throw because of what you

1163
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 1: and I had to deal with. Yeah he had big hands,

1164
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 1: Yeah he had long arms. Yeah he was seven seven,

1165
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 1: But I think it was completely in his head where

1166
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: most people say now he shot thirty eight percent because

1167
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 1: his hands are too big. You know, he's worked with

1168
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 1: every coach, you know, he just golfers, golfers, you know,

1169
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: the things that involved those finesse muscles like pitching and shooting. It's, uh,

1170
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:58,400
Speaker 1: it's delicate, and the mental psyche is delicate, and that's

1171
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 1: why there's so few, uh great pictures. I'd like to say,

1172
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 1: if if, if if every picture were that that through

1173
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: an hour could could put it where they want it,

1174
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 1: then then we wouldn't have Greg Maddox, Doug And that's

1175
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:21,679
Speaker 1: that's the truth. I mean, there would be no room

1176
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:27,040
Speaker 1: for for eight mile hour fastballs hour fastballs. If if

1177
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 1: you could put it where you want it. But the

1178
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is you can't because of the

1179
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 1: mental psyche. There's just it's just hard to be elite.

1180
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 1: And I just I think that's the fascination is why

1181
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 1: did it happen to you and I? Why did it

1182
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:48,519
Speaker 1: happen to Steve Sachs, Why did it happen to Shock Chuck?

1183
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 1: Why do you think like wh why do you think

1184
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 1: do you think it's do you think it's I'd like

1185
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 1: to think it's a side of intelligence, um right, that

1186
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 1: you think too much, that you think about the rampifications

1187
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 1: of it. Um. You know I would, I would say

1188
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 1: that would be my My thing is I just overthought it.

1189
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 1: Joe Crispin, whom you played against, I know, Um, Joe

1190
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 1: Crispin has a saying he would. He's now a D

1191
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 1: three coach. His brother. Yeah, and Joe was a great shooter,

1192
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 1: and I'll never forget he was like, hey man, you

1193
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 1: think you stink. Just remember that you think you stink.

1194
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 1: And I just couldn't. I just couldn't. I I never

1195
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 1: thought about it, never thought about a single pass I

1196
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 1: ever had to make. I never thought about anything else.

1197
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,120
Speaker 1: I'd like, you know, all these guys like my son

1198
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 1: was hate Dad, did you crossover go behind your back?

1199
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 1: Was like no, I just I would try and go

1200
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 1: buy somebody, and if they would beat me to a spot,

1201
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 1: I would spin or I'd cross over or go behind

1202
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 1: my back or something something like that. I just react

1203
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 1: to it, like I didn't go all this other one

1204
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 1: on cone bullshit. Um, but I didn't have to. You know,

1205
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 1: whereas you see little kids and they're like thinking moves,

1206
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 1: like wh thinks about a move? But I would get

1207
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 1: up there and I would start I would start thinking,

1208
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 1: and you know, I think, you know, as I've gone

1209
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 1: on now as a dad and trying to teach as

1210
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 1: a coach, and and it's what I've what I've done.

1211
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 1: What I think the proper way to teach things is

1212
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 1: to teach process um as opposed to result, which is like, hey,

1213
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 1: worry about your feet and you're breathing in your hands,

1214
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 1: and just don't even worry about the ball going in

1215
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:29,560
Speaker 1: because the more if your feet are right, you know,

1216
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 1: if you just worry about these little things, your feet

1217
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,400
Speaker 1: are right, your hands right, it'll go in more more

1218
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 1: times than not. I think that's the way. Okay, so

1219
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:38,919
Speaker 1: let me fast forward here because uh, your time is precious.

1220
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: You become a head coach at twenty five years old

1221
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 1: at Indiana produe Fort Wayne. What was that like, you know,

1222
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 1: once again being the son of a coach. Um. You know,

1223
01:10:55,200 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 1: the basketball component was was easy teaching, It came natural.

1224
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:07,640
Speaker 1: I think what you can't which you can't get a

1225
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: head coach much less year old to understand, is that

1226
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:22,040
Speaker 1: this is a serious business and they're you know, just

1227
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 1: like just like the financial world or you know, the

1228
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 1: movie business. This is a serious business and there are

1229
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: a lot of there's a lot of good people, and

1230
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:40,120
Speaker 1: then there's a lot of people that will will um

1231
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 1: are looking for the for the easy way and growing

1232
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:51,639
Speaker 1: up the way I did, I assume your same way,

1233
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 1: especially in sports. Um, small town you're you're you're not

1234
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:04,640
Speaker 1: really exposed to I wasn't bows to um. You know,

1235
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: the the the the the bad parts of of of

1236
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 1: of humans. You know that where um, there's there's a

1237
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 1: the selfish part of it, the selfish part of the world,

1238
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 1: the greedy part of the world. And so UM, I'm

1239
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 1: just thinking, look, if I'm just honest, if I'm just kind,

1240
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 1: if I'm just do things right, like coach Knight did

1241
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 1: I'll be great, and it just wasn't the way it worked,

1242
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: and and in in in what in what way? I

1243
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,120
Speaker 1: mean like listening like this is a long way removed

1244
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 1: from it, but in what way? Well, you mean an example,

1245
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 1: how did it the way it changed me? I went

1246
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 1: into it as a year old with with a very

1247
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 1: open minded, um naive part of it being so young,

1248
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:10,959
Speaker 1: but just believing in in people, UM with the utmost

1249
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 1: degree of respect and honesty and integrity, because that's all

1250
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 1: I've ever been around and exposed to. And part of

1251
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 1: it was my choice, you know, going to Indiana, I

1252
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 1: was around a lot of great people. Part of it

1253
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:27,719
Speaker 1: was just being in a family and in a town

1254
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:33,800
Speaker 1: that had great leadership and great people. And so UM,

1255
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:37,679
Speaker 1: I entered a world of of um, there's there's millions

1256
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:40,680
Speaker 1: to be made, and there's a lot a lot of

1257
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:43,040
Speaker 1: money in a stake, and then you've got to deal

1258
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:47,599
Speaker 1: with UM A lot of good parents, but but many

1259
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 1: delusional parents and coaches and mentors and a lot of

1260
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:57,240
Speaker 1: different agendas. So essentially I entered the real world, and

1261
01:13:57,280 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 1: the real world can be unforgiving, and so UM as

1262
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: a year old UH, navigating the the running with the Wolves.

1263
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 1: Was was a big shock. Um. So an example would

1264
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 1: just simply be um scheduling. You know, I didn't understand

1265
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 1: that you couldn't just play um Michigan State and and

1266
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: lose because you and I were brought up as, hey,

1267
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 1: let's play these teams to get better, right, you know,

1268
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 1: so I was. I was excited about those opportunities. I

1269
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 1: didn't care about my record at that time. And the

1270
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 1: more I was told and that look, you gotta get wins,

1271
01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: you gotta get this, you gotta get I said, well, hey,

1272
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: look let's get our players better. Um I would say

1273
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:16,160
Speaker 1: that the recruiting world is even at that level, is

1274
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 1: is difficult in what way? Because of everybody thinks sir

1275
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:25,320
Speaker 1: pro Yeah, yeah, that's the that's the amazing part. Right.

1276
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:28,719
Speaker 1: It's like listen, do you know Indiana produced Fort Wayne

1277
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 1: by the way, like people obviously google terrible, Like your

1278
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 1: last year, you're eighteen and twelve a I p f W.

1279
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:41,639
Speaker 1: That's amazing that, that's amazing in Division one basketball concerning

1280
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:44,440
Speaker 1: the number of guarantee games you had to play, the resources,

1281
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:47,360
Speaker 1: the fact that like you're not even the most famous

1282
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 1: I U p U, right, like iupui Pooe was much more,

1283
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:55,679
Speaker 1: not like wait, what produced Fort Wayne? What the hell? Um?

1284
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,719
Speaker 1: It was funny because I had an assistant named Jeff

1285
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:01,559
Speaker 1: tong Gate who's the head coach of the Oakland University women,

1286
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 1: but he was assistant and he was my assistant, and

1287
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 1: he was at division division to school. And when he

1288
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:15,679
Speaker 1: came in on day one and saw our budget at

1289
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 1: I p f W who was transitioning from D one

1290
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:21,320
Speaker 1: or D two to D one we weren't in the league.

1291
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:25,160
Speaker 1: He said, this is you're funded. I got bad news.

1292
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 1: You're funded like a bad, bad Division two teams and

1293
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:37,320
Speaker 1: for for go ahead, sorry, and he said, the chances

1294
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 1: of us getting ten home games out of twenty nine

1295
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 1: or thirty at the time is is going to be

1296
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 1: really difficult. And he said, you want worse news. He said,

1297
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 1: you're starting going five out of the gate. And he said,

1298
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:52,200
Speaker 1: what do you mean? He goes, we get to play

1299
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:57,639
Speaker 1: five by games. And of the so many that were

1300
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 1: played last year, let's say there were two fifty turned

1301
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:04,479
Speaker 1: fifty by games that were played last year. He said

1302
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:11,120
Speaker 1: three three teams won a bye game. So you start

1303
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 1: out ohing five And then the tough part was just

1304
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 1: getting games and even more difficult than that was getting

1305
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:25,160
Speaker 1: home games. But um, you know that said that the

1306
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:29,439
Speaker 1: building part. We finally got into a league eventually, And

1307
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 1: you said eighteen and twelve. There It was funny because

1308
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 1: the year I left, we were eighteen and twelve and

1309
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:37,640
Speaker 1: that was the year that Michigan State lost to u C.

1310
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:41,599
Speaker 1: L A in the first round. And uh, I said,

1311
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 1: I think we were eighteen and twelve, and I think

1312
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:46,920
Speaker 1: Michigan State was nineteen and twelve. I said, they're having

1313
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:49,840
Speaker 1: a parade for us in Fort Wayne and they're ready

1314
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:54,799
Speaker 1: to fire is already in East Lansing. And that's that.

1315
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:57,400
Speaker 1: That gives you some perspective. I said, we finished third

1316
01:17:57,400 --> 01:18:00,080
Speaker 1: in our league, might even finish a second and I

1317
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: don't remember, but um, you know, Michigan we finished third

1318
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 1: in the Big ten. We maybe a three seed, you know,

1319
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 1: And I'd say eighteen at the mid low major level

1320
01:18:13,479 --> 01:18:19,400
Speaker 1: because of buy games, yeah, high major, more than twenty.

1321
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you can you know, twenty wins. I don't

1322
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:24,599
Speaker 1: know if you know this, but over a hundred teams

1323
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 1: per year win twenty games. Um, okay, So so you

1324
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:34,519
Speaker 1: go to Michigan State. What is Tom Zoh like to work?

1325
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:37,559
Speaker 1: For And look, obviously you're not gonna say anything about

1326
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 1: a bunch your boss. All I can tell you is, guys, generally,

1327
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:44,639
Speaker 1: you know you your staff YouTube haven't left and it's

1328
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:47,320
Speaker 1: not for lack of opportunities. So he must be pretty

1329
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 1: damn good to work for. What is he like? Everybody?

1330
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 1: It's funny, Uh, when I'm on the road, get to know,

1331
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:59,479
Speaker 1: somebody talked to somebody, maybe just met from another program.

1332
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:01,360
Speaker 1: What's it like? What's it like working for his eye?

1333
01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:04,920
Speaker 1: He's the best, you know? I say, are you kidding me?

1334
01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:07,760
Speaker 1: They say, do you love it? Do you love it? Dane?

1335
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 1: He said, are you kidding me? It's hard? Love it winning?

1336
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:20,120
Speaker 1: I love winning, all right, But coming into work every day, um,

1337
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 1: it's hard work. I don't know if loves the right word,

1338
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:26,920
Speaker 1: but I'll tell you this dog, I love him and

1339
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:35,600
Speaker 1: he makes me better every single day. And um, you know,

1340
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:39,120
Speaker 1: I was looking at a job last year and it

1341
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:42,960
Speaker 1: paid more it was. I wouldn't call it a lateral move,

1342
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 1: but it's hard to make a lateral move from from

1343
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:49,000
Speaker 1: a program like this and a and a boss like this.

1344
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 1: But I said, I don't want to go. I said,

1345
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 1: I just want to know that you bring value. I'm sorry.

1346
01:19:57,400 --> 01:19:59,640
Speaker 1: I just want to know that I'm still that you

1347
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 1: think I'm still bringing value to your program, and that

1348
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 1: that I'm still making your program better. And you know,

1349
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:17,960
Speaker 1: he obviously told me yes because I stayed. But um,

1350
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:22,360
Speaker 1: it's it's every day that that I feel I get better.

1351
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:27,640
Speaker 1: And I just told somebody that this morning. Um, you know,

1352
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:29,840
Speaker 1: why not take a certain job or go after a

1353
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 1: certain job that's open. I said, you know, it would

1354
01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:37,479
Speaker 1: take a lot to give me to leave, and mainly

1355
01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:42,880
Speaker 1: because I'm still getting better. I'm still learning here in

1356
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:48,599
Speaker 1: a major way and hard to work for. But here's

1357
01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:52,600
Speaker 1: the thing about coaches. Oh, what he says he's gonna do,

1358
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:59,080
Speaker 1: he's gonna do. And at no point, even in his

1359
01:20:59,160 --> 01:21:04,000
Speaker 1: worst day, even when he's told me, uh, you know,

1360
01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:06,439
Speaker 1: I've done something wrong or done a bad job, or

1361
01:21:06,479 --> 01:21:10,200
Speaker 1: he's disappointed at or yells at me, or tells me

1362
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 1: look for another job at the end of the year,

1363
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 1: at no point do I not think that he doesn't

1364
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 1: have my best interests in mind. I know at all

1365
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:21,599
Speaker 1: times that whatever he does, it's it's for my best interests,

1366
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:24,639
Speaker 1: much like a player. But I've just never been around

1367
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:28,240
Speaker 1: a guy that's more selfless than him. And we can

1368
01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:30,320
Speaker 1: talk about him making big money and all that, you

1369
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:34,240
Speaker 1: know what, he's had chances to triple that and put

1370
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:42,120
Speaker 1: less time in at in the NBA. And so we're

1371
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 1: in a part. We're in a situation right now in

1372
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:50,360
Speaker 1: college basketball that there is not a better leader. And

1373
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 1: I am going to stroke my boss for a little

1374
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 1: for a second. There's not a better leader slash CEO

1375
01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:01,080
Speaker 1: out there than than than coaches, because he gets the

1376
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 1: most out of you, and yet he does it out

1377
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 1: of love. And we can talk about him getting in

1378
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:15,759
Speaker 1: people's faces, but him doing that to somebody is different

1379
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 1: than say me, are you doing that to somebody? Because

1380
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:22,760
Speaker 1: of the mont and love and time and passion and

1381
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:27,880
Speaker 1: um work that he puts into each individual player and

1382
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 1: coach in person. You know this. This is a guy

1383
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:36,920
Speaker 1: that grew up in a really small Upper Peninsula town,

1384
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 1: poor town. He was poor. His dad owned a shoe

1385
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:45,760
Speaker 1: repair shop and he was in there working. And if

1386
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 1: you didn't if five people came in to spend money

1387
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:52,640
Speaker 1: that day, Doug, you needed him to spend money. So

1388
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:56,240
Speaker 1: you had to learn to treat people like a million

1389
01:22:56,240 --> 01:22:59,840
Speaker 1: bucks and be genuine about it and so this is

1390
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:06,280
Speaker 1: just a larger, a larger to repair shop. Honestly, I've

1391
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:09,320
Speaker 1: just never been any anybody and around anybody that's as

1392
01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 1: passionate and caring about others as this guy. As coaches

1393
01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:17,719
Speaker 1: in his position, he doesn't have to be he doesn't

1394
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 1: have to coach, he doesn't have to put up with stuff.

1395
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:24,280
Speaker 1: He could go to the NBA, he could retire. It's

1396
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:27,120
Speaker 1: it's just an incredible time. And the book hasn't been written,

1397
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:29,519
Speaker 1: and I'm surprised why it has. You can make a

1398
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 1: lot of money right in a book on this guy

1399
01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:35,559
Speaker 1: where I actually ran into the final four. But do

1400
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:37,639
Speaker 1: you want him? Have him him? Right? I want let

1401
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:39,519
Speaker 1: me this I could I could change and I could,

1402
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:42,200
Speaker 1: I could, I could write it. Um. Okay, so I

1403
01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 1: gotta I got a couple more um because I want

1404
01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:47,519
Speaker 1: to talk about this year's team, But first I want

1405
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:50,880
Speaker 1: to ask him. This is in regards to this year's team.

1406
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:53,400
Speaker 1: He has certain things that he does, right. He always

1407
01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:55,559
Speaker 1: he'd always you know, come over a call time out

1408
01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:58,120
Speaker 1: here in the game, situations, things you guys prepare for.

1409
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:03,000
Speaker 1: But what I've noticed is something he started some of

1410
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:07,320
Speaker 1: it last year, but really this year especially and the

1411
01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:10,200
Speaker 1: team had some limitations, but I've noticed kind of a

1412
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 1: bit of an evolution in some of the stuff. You

1413
01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:16,000
Speaker 1: guys run like. You go back a couple of years

1414
01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:17,840
Speaker 1: ago when I was a CBS like, it was the

1415
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,920
Speaker 1: same plays and sets and maybe even calls. You guys

1416
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:25,160
Speaker 1: would run forever. Look and you still have your still core.

1417
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:29,519
Speaker 1: You know you're still rebounding, You're still transitioning. You know,

1418
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 1: you guys are still running the lane super hard and

1419
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 1: super wide. You guys still rebound like wild dogs. But

1420
01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:39,799
Speaker 1: the the actual sets offensively have evolved. There's some NBA looks,

1421
01:24:39,800 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 1: there's some ball screens that are to the baseline side,

1422
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:44,960
Speaker 1: there's some different stuff. Who's the guy in the staff

1423
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 1: that convinced him to change, Well, I'm sure there's a

1424
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:52,040
Speaker 1: bunch of people, but um, I guess from my perspective,

1425
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:56,200
Speaker 1: my approach with coach was, you know, he always he's

1426
01:24:56,240 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 1: best friends with the late Flips, Honors love Slip and

1427
01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:04,679
Speaker 1: Flip would always come every summer and chalk talk and

1428
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:09,080
Speaker 1: the coach would always always, since I've been here, would

1429
01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:12,559
Speaker 1: always hear Coach talk about, you know, flipping his counters.

1430
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:16,840
Speaker 1: Flipping his counters. That's a good point coach, Why why

1431
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 1: do you why do you say flipping his counters? It's

1432
01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:22,920
Speaker 1: just you know, like shouldn't shouldn't we have counters to

1433
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:28,920
Speaker 1: a set? Thinking why doesn't he like counters? And so

1434
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:35,520
Speaker 1: so he wasn't real big on counters per se, you know, counterplace.

1435
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 1: So if you run a pin down and they go

1436
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:42,120
Speaker 1: underneath the pin down, you should we call it a faith?

1437
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:45,800
Speaker 1: Just script it, you know, just all right, Travis Stritch,

1438
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:47,519
Speaker 1: you're coming off of faith because they're going up the

1439
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:56,280
Speaker 1: gut counter Um, more motion, principles, more reads. But um,

1440
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:59,439
Speaker 1: after last year we lost the Syracuse. Now there's a

1441
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 1: million reasons why, but you don't want to hear any

1442
01:26:02,479 --> 01:26:09,680
Speaker 1: of them. But I just thought, all right, some yeah,

1443
01:26:09,720 --> 01:26:13,720
Speaker 1: some things that we need to change, okay, And I

1444
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:15,760
Speaker 1: went down my list of things that need we need

1445
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:18,519
Speaker 1: to work on. Of course naturally end of the season,

1446
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:23,719
Speaker 1: but I just got to thinking, you know, today's player,

1447
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:27,160
Speaker 1: all right, forget about the personality, the toughness, all that stuff.

1448
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:32,360
Speaker 1: We can sort through that. But today's player, especially the

1449
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 1: young kids, are taught so much with the ball in

1450
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:40,640
Speaker 1: their hands. Okay, And Miles Bridges is an example. I

1451
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:42,679
Speaker 1: just had this discussion with with a coach. But go ahead,

1452
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:49,519
Speaker 1: if you watch Miles play in college. Okay, damn damn good.

1453
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:51,640
Speaker 1: All those that good at good at what he's good at.

1454
01:26:52,240 --> 01:26:54,960
Speaker 1: But one of the things he had no idea how

1455
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:57,040
Speaker 1: to do when he got him, when we got him,

1456
01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 1: was was played without the basketball. That takes time. So

1457
01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:03,679
Speaker 1: I said, we're pounding a square peg to a round

1458
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:06,320
Speaker 1: hole trying to teach these guys how to move and cut,

1459
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:09,920
Speaker 1: teach them all these principles how to play without the ball.

1460
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:13,719
Speaker 1: And that's great, we should and we should never stop.

1461
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:17,599
Speaker 1: But I said, we've got to start put putting them

1462
01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:27,640
Speaker 1: in positions a that they're good at and b um,

1463
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:31,240
Speaker 1: you know, allowing them to not allowing them, but but

1464
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:39,040
Speaker 1: um catering to you know what, what what each player

1465
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:43,320
Speaker 1: can can do well. And so I said, in addition,

1466
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:46,760
Speaker 1: you know, one of our biggest selves is that we

1467
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 1: are we are running an NBA style offense. And yet

1468
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:56,759
Speaker 1: the NBA seemingly has moved a little bit. And we've,

1469
01:27:56,920 --> 01:28:00,320
Speaker 1: as you kind of alluded to, you've you said, we've

1470
01:28:00,479 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 1: we've stayed the same, right, and so we have guys

1471
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:11,040
Speaker 1: like Miles Bridges who and Jaren Jackson, um that a

1472
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:17,559
Speaker 1: they're young, incredibly young, seventeen eighteen, and B I really

1473
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:19,600
Speaker 1: don't know how to play without the ball. Jarring was

1474
01:28:19,640 --> 01:28:23,400
Speaker 1: better than Miles, But um, that's a lot to ask

1475
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:28,640
Speaker 1: considering we are so young and so the the recruiting

1476
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:32,880
Speaker 1: philosophy I think needs to be changed. Needs to change

1477
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:35,519
Speaker 1: our recruiting philosophy. It's hard to survive with a couple

1478
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:38,040
Speaker 1: of one and done. You either got to go all in,

1479
01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:41,960
Speaker 1: in my opinion, or really really limit your one and dones.

1480
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:45,280
Speaker 1: But b we either recruit kids that know how to

1481
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 1: play without the ball, which is really hard to find,

1482
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:53,000
Speaker 1: or recruit the best talent that that we think fits

1483
01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:56,880
Speaker 1: our program, the best profile that fits our program. And

1484
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:00,160
Speaker 1: you never know until they get here. But what we

1485
01:29:00,240 --> 01:29:07,040
Speaker 1: do know is the guru generation, the trainer generation, you know,

1486
01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:10,760
Speaker 1: the kids that don't go play five on five out

1487
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:14,960
Speaker 1: in the park or at you know, one on I like,

1488
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:17,840
Speaker 1: I call it one on cone generation. There you go,

1489
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:20,640
Speaker 1: that's right, We've got We've got some amazing I I

1490
01:29:21,080 --> 01:29:23,080
Speaker 1: that's what I sell the recruits. It's funny. Look, I

1491
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:25,439
Speaker 1: can put you through the best cone drills you'll ever see,

1492
01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:29,120
Speaker 1: you know, as good as as good as as good

1493
01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:31,120
Speaker 1: as anybody, as good as the best in the country.

1494
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:35,519
Speaker 1: I can set up combs, okay, but you know the

1495
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:37,760
Speaker 1: one thing you're gonna get here is is this this

1496
01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:39,800
Speaker 1: and this chance to play for a championship, chance to

1497
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:43,759
Speaker 1: play for a Hall of famorage. And you'll be pushed. Um.

1498
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:46,559
Speaker 1: But that was my that was I know that was

1499
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:49,719
Speaker 1: a long answer, but you know that was my thought

1500
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:53,240
Speaker 1: is we we've got to do a better job putting

1501
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:58,400
Speaker 1: our players in position to play to their strengths. Uh

1502
01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:02,679
Speaker 1: in real time, yah, you know. And and they'll they'll evolve,

1503
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:05,960
Speaker 1: they'll develop, We believe in versatility. And then the counters.

1504
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:09,640
Speaker 1: All right, So if they go start trapping Cash, is

1505
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 1: his ball to ball screen, let's not go away from Okay,

1506
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 1: can't can't set a ball screen for Cashes. Let's use

1507
01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:20,560
Speaker 1: it against him, you know, Let's let him trap Cash

1508
01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:24,120
Speaker 1: and put our guys in position to where now we're

1509
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:28,240
Speaker 1: going to punish him. You know, if they start turning,

1510
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:31,400
Speaker 1: if they start playing on top of a down screen,

1511
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:34,320
Speaker 1: let's not go away from the down screen. Let's use

1512
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:39,200
Speaker 1: it against him. And so those were the adjustments that

1513
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,439
Speaker 1: were my suggestions and and coach is awesome. Coaches, those

1514
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:45,200
Speaker 1: the best in listening. You may not agree with it,

1515
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:52,640
Speaker 1: but he's definitely gonna listen. So, how did now that

1516
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:56,439
Speaker 1: you've had a chance to decompress, you guys had an

1517
01:30:56,479 --> 01:31:00,800
Speaker 1: amazing year, right, Like, not just you lose lottery picks

1518
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:04,120
Speaker 1: and you win your tournament in Vegas, you win the

1519
01:31:04,120 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 1: Big Ten, You in the Big Ten tournament, you get

1520
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:08,680
Speaker 1: to a final four, right, like, of of things that

1521
01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:11,320
Speaker 1: can be checked, you checked every box except for one,

1522
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:14,400
Speaker 1: which is in a national championship, right, I mean, that's

1523
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:17,400
Speaker 1: that's an InCred season. And then you factor in all

1524
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:21,120
Speaker 1: the injuries, right like I think if you had arms,

1525
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:22,840
Speaker 1: I think you might you might go to a national

1526
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:26,080
Speaker 1: championship game. You know, forget about if you had if

1527
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:30,960
Speaker 1: you had Langford. Um. But and I remember I was

1528
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:33,760
Speaker 1: sitting us from Steve Lavin and we did this was

1529
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:37,280
Speaker 1: before one of your games early the season, and I

1530
01:31:37,320 --> 01:31:39,880
Speaker 1: picked you guys to win the Big Ten and I said,

1531
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:44,120
Speaker 1: no agendas. I was like, this is a this is

1532
01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:47,000
Speaker 1: a great this is gonna be a great college basketball team,

1533
01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:50,840
Speaker 1: because I'd see in Vegas. But how now that you've

1534
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 1: had a chance to kind of decompress and think about it, Um,

1535
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:56,320
Speaker 1: how did it come to be that you guys had

1536
01:31:56,400 --> 01:31:59,720
Speaker 1: this type of year. Considering all of the different things

1537
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:03,280
Speaker 1: which could have caused it to go south, Well, I

1538
01:32:03,320 --> 01:32:07,960
Speaker 1: think what what we did is, um, we knew going

1539
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:10,040
Speaker 1: in that Davier Tillman was going to be a great

1540
01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:12,880
Speaker 1: player for US. Okay, he was having a great summer.

1541
01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:16,280
Speaker 1: Um changed his body and he just has an unbelievable

1542
01:32:16,280 --> 01:32:19,839
Speaker 1: feel for the game. And so we knew that Tillman

1543
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:24,120
Speaker 1: was really going to help us. He's he is, he's

1544
01:32:24,640 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 1: we used the term Draymond like. He's Draymond like on

1545
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:30,479
Speaker 1: defense defense in that he makes up for a lot

1546
01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:35,639
Speaker 1: of mistakes that other players make. And um, we knew

1547
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:38,720
Speaker 1: we had a bunch of really good pieces. But the

1548
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:43,439
Speaker 1: one thing we couldn't really the factor is is um

1549
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:49,640
Speaker 1: we we didn't know who was We needed people to

1550
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:51,640
Speaker 1: step up. So we felt like Tillman was going to

1551
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:55,600
Speaker 1: step up. We felt like obviously Langford was going to

1552
01:32:55,720 --> 01:33:00,839
Speaker 1: be better. We weren't sure on mcclad uh or Kenny Goings,

1553
01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:02,840
Speaker 1: and those guys stepped up in a major way. We

1554
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:05,280
Speaker 1: knew Matt was going to be a great defender. Okay,

1555
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:10,000
Speaker 1: Matt's one of the best in the country. Um, but

1556
01:33:10,120 --> 01:33:13,479
Speaker 1: he just was so much more confidence, confident on offense.

1557
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:17,240
Speaker 1: And I think part of that was was that Josh

1558
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:21,519
Speaker 1: Langford got hurt and Matt didn't feel the you know,

1559
01:33:21,640 --> 01:33:24,720
Speaker 1: didn't feel the guilt, maybe that it was his time

1560
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:26,639
Speaker 1: to make a player shoot when he knew he had

1561
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:32,519
Speaker 1: another elite player next to him. Um, you know, Nick

1562
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 1: Ward getting hurt was was was devastating, but it also

1563
01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:44,559
Speaker 1: helped other guys gained confidence and get better. Um Cassius Winston,

1564
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:46,599
Speaker 1: you know when Josh went down, that was our other

1565
01:33:46,960 --> 01:33:49,280
Speaker 1: that was our third score. You know, you had cash,

1566
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:52,400
Speaker 1: Nick Cassius once in, Nick Ward and Josh Lankford, we

1567
01:33:52,439 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 1: felt were going to do the bulk of our scoring.

1568
01:33:55,439 --> 01:33:58,080
Speaker 1: So then it forced us to be a little bit

1569
01:33:58,080 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 1: more creative with cashes. And there were times in games

1570
01:34:02,160 --> 01:34:06,559
Speaker 1: where maybe I would be calling something for another player

1571
01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:10,040
Speaker 1: to at least get the ball and and there was

1572
01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:13,920
Speaker 1: no We're ball screened for Cash, Give Cash base, he'll

1573
01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:20,680
Speaker 1: make a play. And uh So, I think that when

1574
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:23,040
Speaker 1: it's all said and done, how did we hang on

1575
01:34:23,120 --> 01:34:28,639
Speaker 1: and keep getting better? Um, I'll give coaching some credit,

1576
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:36,080
Speaker 1: I'll give culture a lot of credit, but I think

1577
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:39,559
Speaker 1: in the end, the players bought into what we were doing,

1578
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:42,240
Speaker 1: Doug and and that is hard to do, especially when

1579
01:34:42,280 --> 01:34:46,599
Speaker 1: you've got um McDonald's all Americans, kids that had a

1580
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:49,120
Speaker 1: ton of success, kids that are driven to be pros.

1581
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:54,240
Speaker 1: They bought into what we were doing. I'd say, you're right.

1582
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:57,519
Speaker 1: If we had Kyle Arnes, we probably would have played

1583
01:34:57,520 --> 01:34:59,880
Speaker 1: in that championship game. And that's not to take anything

1584
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:06,200
Speaker 1: away from Texas Tech, but um, that experienced player would

1585
01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:08,559
Speaker 1: would make a huge difference because when Aaron Henry got

1586
01:35:08,560 --> 01:35:12,680
Speaker 1: in followed trouble h in the first half of that

1587
01:35:13,200 --> 01:35:17,559
Speaker 1: semifinal game, we felt like we could play six and

1588
01:35:17,560 --> 01:35:21,080
Speaker 1: a half guys and the half was gonna spell. It

1589
01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:23,000
Speaker 1: was going to give McQuaid a one or two minute

1590
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:25,799
Speaker 1: break and maybe Cashious a one or two. We couldn't

1591
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:27,400
Speaker 1: give him Acquit a break, and I think it wore

1592
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:33,320
Speaker 1: mcquait out. And I will give Matt McQuaid credit or

1593
01:35:33,520 --> 01:35:36,240
Speaker 1: Texas Tech credit for that. Becauld. We have played Aaron

1594
01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:40,160
Speaker 1: Henry with with two fouls in the first half, Yeah,

1595
01:35:40,240 --> 01:35:42,719
Speaker 1: but that's not really what we do. And we felt

1596
01:35:42,720 --> 01:35:44,759
Speaker 1: like as long as we were close in the game,

1597
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:47,880
Speaker 1: we didn't need to play them. But maybe that's for

1598
01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:50,960
Speaker 1: another day. No, listen, I mean I would I generally

1599
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:54,040
Speaker 1: would disagree with that that philosophy. I thought it nearly

1600
01:35:54,080 --> 01:35:57,200
Speaker 1: got that that same thought. UM heard Virginia when they

1601
01:35:57,200 --> 01:36:00,120
Speaker 1: took Quite out with two fouls and then he in

1602
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:05,120
Speaker 1: the they took he took um uh. He took tied

1603
01:36:05,160 --> 01:36:08,320
Speaker 1: Drome out with with four fouls with like five minutes

1604
01:36:08,360 --> 01:36:11,320
Speaker 1: to go against Auburn, and tied Rome has never foul

1605
01:36:11,360 --> 01:36:13,800
Speaker 1: out of a game. He only had four fouls one

1606
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:15,439
Speaker 1: of the game this year. You know, they don't foul

1607
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:17,240
Speaker 1: or they don't. Actually they're like Michigan. They don't get

1608
01:36:17,320 --> 01:36:21,280
Speaker 1: called for fouls. They don't. They don't foul. They put

1609
01:36:21,720 --> 01:36:25,439
Speaker 1: Zion back in in our game and he had two falls. Yeah, listen,

1610
01:36:25,439 --> 01:36:28,880
Speaker 1: I I think it's it's very much case dependent. And

1611
01:36:29,360 --> 01:36:31,720
Speaker 1: I played for a guy who would sit there and

1612
01:36:31,760 --> 01:36:34,439
Speaker 1: go like, well, coach, you want you want to leave

1613
01:36:34,479 --> 01:36:35,800
Speaker 1: him in or do you wanna take him out like

1614
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 1: you get five stop fouling. Yes, it was. It was

1615
01:36:44,200 --> 01:36:47,439
Speaker 1: a very simple philosophy. You stop fouling. Combs sitting next

1616
01:36:47,439 --> 01:36:50,759
Speaker 1: to me and help me coach, Like all right, okay,

1617
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:55,519
Speaker 1: I guess moving on, but hey, listen. It was an

1618
01:36:55,560 --> 01:37:00,320
Speaker 1: incredible incredible year. Uh, but you know what one last

1619
01:37:00,400 --> 01:37:02,760
Speaker 1: one last thing on on I want to do on

1620
01:37:02,760 --> 01:37:06,560
Speaker 1: on Coach Coach Night because I got time. I got time. No, no, no,

1621
01:37:06,760 --> 01:37:08,799
Speaker 1: I know. But with the in terms of a podcast,

1622
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:10,800
Speaker 1: you don't want it to because people will download it

1623
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:14,000
Speaker 1: more if it's a little bit you know you, I

1624
01:37:14,040 --> 01:37:15,840
Speaker 1: could splice it up. I don't know if you're worthy

1625
01:37:15,880 --> 01:37:17,960
Speaker 1: of two pods. I don't know that. Um, and I

1626
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:19,519
Speaker 1: don't know what I was saying. You can cut some

1627
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 1: stuff out. I don't want to cut anything out. It's

1628
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:25,160
Speaker 1: been freaking good. UM put late in late night and

1629
01:37:25,160 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 1: have me put some people to sleep. What? Uh? You

1630
01:37:30,240 --> 01:37:33,639
Speaker 1: know like he was he was on campus last week.

1631
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:36,160
Speaker 1: Obviously he made an appearance and obviously he's got some

1632
01:37:36,200 --> 01:37:40,000
Speaker 1: memory issues that that's working. What what what would feel? What?

1633
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:42,439
Speaker 1: I feel bad like? I feel like, look, I'm I'm

1634
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:44,559
Speaker 1: part of the Coach Sutton family. I feel terrible that

1635
01:37:44,640 --> 01:37:47,479
Speaker 1: the image that people have of him now is you know,

1636
01:37:48,320 --> 01:37:52,720
Speaker 1: UM in a wheelchair and you know, unable to You're

1637
01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:56,479
Speaker 1: unable to feel what it was like and people are

1638
01:37:57,560 --> 01:38:00,559
Speaker 1: right and am I am I crazy? But you guys

1639
01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:03,160
Speaker 1: playing against Texas Tech like there's just there was a

1640
01:38:03,200 --> 01:38:05,840
Speaker 1: lot of Bob Knight in how Texas Tech played, how

1641
01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:09,040
Speaker 1: they competed. You mentioned the defense in the motion in

1642
01:38:09,080 --> 01:38:12,120
Speaker 1: the offense, right, like if you were to relate a man.

1643
01:38:12,439 --> 01:38:14,280
Speaker 1: I can't say exactly what it would be like if

1644
01:38:14,280 --> 01:38:16,360
Speaker 1: Coach Knight was in his prime, but a lot of

1645
01:38:16,360 --> 01:38:18,439
Speaker 1: what it might have looked like was what Texas Tech

1646
01:38:18,520 --> 01:38:22,679
Speaker 1: was like. No, you know what with the players they had,

1647
01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:26,439
Speaker 1: they had men, and they had men that were willing to,

1648
01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:32,360
Speaker 1: you know, lay down their bodies for for the betterment

1649
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:37,519
Speaker 1: of the team. And um, I was just fascinated with

1650
01:38:38,560 --> 01:38:42,599
Speaker 1: one that that their motion and they didn't run a

1651
01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 1: ton of it against US. UM. But I give Coach

1652
01:38:46,840 --> 01:38:49,960
Speaker 1: Beard all the credit, especially with they got tired by

1653
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:51,960
Speaker 1: the way, Guarden, you guys and say stopped moving, They

1654
01:38:52,040 --> 01:38:53,599
Speaker 1: kind of stopped unning when you guys made that run

1655
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:57,280
Speaker 1: the second half. They were gas they were tired. They

1656
01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,639
Speaker 1: were they were And I think that you know, obviously

1657
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:02,120
Speaker 1: Owen gets hurt with his ankle against US, and that's

1658
01:39:02,240 --> 01:39:05,400
Speaker 1: nobody's fault in this awful to see it happened, but

1659
01:39:06,400 --> 01:39:08,719
Speaker 1: I think it impacted him for the next game too,

1660
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:13,439
Speaker 1: you know, against Virginia. And I think that you know,

1661
01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 1: we we did a number on them, as they did

1662
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:19,439
Speaker 1: a number on us. But I think whichever team made

1663
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:21,320
Speaker 1: it through the Virginia was going to have a tough,

1664
01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:25,840
Speaker 1: tough game for the simple fact that the two teams

1665
01:39:25,880 --> 01:39:28,559
Speaker 1: that played in the second game on Saturday night, it

1666
01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:34,720
Speaker 1: was a war. And you know, it's back to the

1667
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:40,639
Speaker 1: coach Night, coach Beard. Um. It's interesting that any anybody

1668
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:44,920
Speaker 1: who runs motion today is you know, I feel for him,

1669
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:47,800
Speaker 1: but I admire them, but their toughness, you know, it

1670
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:52,800
Speaker 1: did it reminded me of um, you know those Coach

1671
01:39:52,840 --> 01:39:55,000
Speaker 1: Knight's first team. You know, he always talks the first

1672
01:39:55,080 --> 01:39:58,200
Speaker 1: championship team with Quinn Buckner and Scott May and those guys.

1673
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:06,080
Speaker 1: It was a tough, rugged, blue collar to one to

1674
01:40:06,200 --> 01:40:12,400
Speaker 1: five team. And I think that you know, if you

1675
01:40:12,439 --> 01:40:14,719
Speaker 1: get a chance to ask coaches, oh, I think he'll

1676
01:40:15,920 --> 01:40:22,160
Speaker 1: he'll readily admit that that team was tougher, tough, if

1677
01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:27,720
Speaker 1: not tougher than us, Um, especially in that game. Yeah,

1678
01:40:27,760 --> 01:40:29,880
Speaker 1: and then rarely, and that rarely happens. Then Moody made

1679
01:40:29,880 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 1: some shot. They just you know, they made some shots

1680
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:34,639
Speaker 1: and you know, paying from behind, yeah, and and playing

1681
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:37,599
Speaker 1: from behind is hard it's just, you know, so much

1682
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:41,599
Speaker 1: better to die. No. I mean, yes, you had had

1683
01:40:41,720 --> 01:40:44,080
Speaker 1: you had a run, you had him within grasp. They

1684
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:46,120
Speaker 1: they I talked to those guys afterwards. I was like,

1685
01:40:46,160 --> 01:40:48,439
Speaker 1: you guys stopped running offense, Like dude, we were tired.

1686
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:53,280
Speaker 1: Guarding them is hard. Yeah, it's funny because I mentioned

1687
01:40:53,360 --> 01:40:56,880
Speaker 1: McQuade being exhausted. You know that Shotty gets in the

1688
01:40:56,920 --> 01:41:01,200
Speaker 1: corner from Aaron Henry. Yeah, okay, late in the game.

1689
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:05,800
Speaker 1: He makes that nine and a half times out of ten.

1690
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:11,880
Speaker 1: But I think that Henry getting followed trouble really hurt us.

1691
01:41:12,439 --> 01:41:16,160
Speaker 1: They're not playing errand by any sense. Just McQuaid makes

1692
01:41:16,160 --> 01:41:18,080
Speaker 1: that shot nine and a half times out of ten

1693
01:41:19,320 --> 01:41:22,479
Speaker 1: and he missed it to tie the game. Toman gets

1694
01:41:22,560 --> 01:41:26,679
Speaker 1: the ball stolen with we're down four minute and a half. Hey,

1695
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:28,840
Speaker 1: those guys did a number on us too. It was

1696
01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:32,479
Speaker 1: a great game, probably not from a fans perspective, but

1697
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:34,720
Speaker 1: I disagree. I was sitting there watching I thought it

1698
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:36,439
Speaker 1: was like it was like watching there was like watching

1699
01:41:36,720 --> 01:41:40,560
Speaker 1: four prize three prize fights. It was that was fantastic.

1700
01:41:40,560 --> 01:41:42,639
Speaker 1: But you're a coach. I don't consider you a fan.

1701
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:45,080
Speaker 1: You're a coach. I'm not a don't have a team.

1702
01:41:45,640 --> 01:41:48,800
Speaker 1: You know you don't have a team. Well, I have

1703
01:41:48,920 --> 01:41:51,880
Speaker 1: like fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh high school teams that should

1704
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:54,360
Speaker 1: done not compared to what what what you guys have. Listen,

1705
01:41:54,760 --> 01:41:57,600
Speaker 1: you've been more than gracious with your time. And I

1706
01:41:57,640 --> 01:42:00,240
Speaker 1: think people at this point, if they've listened this long,

1707
01:42:00,280 --> 01:42:02,760
Speaker 1: they're like, man, these guys who go on on. We

1708
01:42:02,800 --> 01:42:05,120
Speaker 1: will do a part two at some point this summer.

1709
01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:09,960
Speaker 1: Um and uh, we'll we'll we'll talk more about izoh.

1710
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:13,360
Speaker 1: And I love the stuff about the brain and the mentality.

1711
01:42:13,439 --> 01:42:20,720
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Congratulations on an incredible season. Incredible, I

1712
01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:22,840
Speaker 1: would love to be Dugan's just such a much cool

1713
01:42:22,840 --> 01:42:27,920
Speaker 1: an ending Doug, thanks for joining, Eric, Yeah, thanks join

1714
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:34,000
Speaker 1: all right, So that my thanks to Dane Fife, um

1715
01:42:34,080 --> 01:42:37,599
Speaker 1: and to two Tony Bennett. Virginia is our national champion.

1716
01:42:38,120 --> 01:42:41,200
Speaker 1: And look, with with all of the not all of

1717
01:42:41,200 --> 01:42:46,960
Speaker 1: the mess, all the mess that has been college basketball,

1718
01:42:47,000 --> 01:42:50,400
Speaker 1: the perception of college basketball, to have Virginia in it

1719
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:52,600
Speaker 1: where you got legit student athletes and a coach that

1720
01:42:52,640 --> 01:42:57,439
Speaker 1: doesn't cheat, and and um, somebody who has just a

1721
01:42:57,479 --> 01:43:01,519
Speaker 1: great balance of having been beaten by Syracuse when they

1722
01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:03,400
Speaker 1: should have gone to the Final four by u NBC

1723
01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:06,160
Speaker 1: when they were upset the year before too. Then have

1724
01:43:06,280 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 1: these miraculous three wins in a row and win a

1725
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:12,880
Speaker 1: national championship and doing things the right way. I think

1726
01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:15,439
Speaker 1: it's great for the sport. I think it's great for

1727
01:43:15,479 --> 01:43:19,840
Speaker 1: the sport. We'll do more recaps on the year, We'll

1728
01:43:19,880 --> 01:43:22,400
Speaker 1: have more coaches on, We'll turn our focus more also

1729
01:43:22,479 --> 01:43:26,480
Speaker 1: to the NBA upcoming. I really appreciate you downloading, subscribing,

1730
01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:29,559
Speaker 1: and rating the All Ball podcast. Remember to check out

1731
01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:31,519
Speaker 1: the radio show, Doug Gotlib Show daily three to six,

1732
01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:34,400
Speaker 1: season time twelve three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, Fox

1733
01:43:34,400 --> 01:43:36,479
Speaker 1: Sport Trade dot Com, the I Heart Radio app as well.

1734
01:43:36,800 --> 01:43:38,679
Speaker 1: I'm Doug Gottliebin. This is All Ball.