1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: Henry Lee Lucas makes Charles Manson and Ted Bundy look 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: like Tom Sawyer. I can't tell you how many times 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: in court I would be prosecuting a homicide case and 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: I would look over at the defendant. Of course, I 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: never did that in front of a jury. In front 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: of the jury, I would never look over at the 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: defendant or his fleet of lawyers. But when they weren't looking, 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,959 Speaker 1: I would look over at the defendant or defendants, and 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: in many homicide cases, they would have a look in 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: their eyes like I would be looking at a frog 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: or a lizard, just something cold blooded with no expression. 12 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: Henry Lee Lucas because either he's the biggest hoaxter that 13 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: ever lived, or he may be responsible for as many 14 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: as six hundred murders. In twenty six States Crime Stories 15 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, Henry Lee Lucas says he has killed 16 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: one hundred women. Lucas claims to have killed over one 17 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty women. Henry Lee Lucas killed at least 18 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty people during an eight year spree 19 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: that only ended when Texas authority he's caught him last year. 20 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: One policeman said he makes Charles Manson sound like Tom Sawyer. 21 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: Henry Le Lucas murdered my sister, Largene. Henry Lee Lucas 22 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: murdered my mother. John Gilmore Lucas killed my sister Rita Salazar. 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: The last person he killed meant no more to him 24 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: than the last favorite that he smoked. This is a 25 00:01:52,760 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: bad guy. Everyone's perfect kill killer him. Yet he's just 26 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: you didn't d You can't kill two hundred people and 27 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: never leave a single shred of evidence, nothing zero. I 28 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: just grabbed right. You talk about being conned. He was 29 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: playing them like a violin. Either they found that world's 30 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: worst serial killer art that was the biggest hoax in 31 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: American criminal justice history. Believe me, it is not a hoax. 32 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for 33 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: being with us. His victims meant no more to him 34 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: than his last cigarette. Boy, that was well put. And 35 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: when that guy just said his last murder victim meant 36 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: last to him than his last cigarette that he flipped 37 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: off to the sidewalk, I get it. I wish I hadn't. 38 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: I didn't know that, but I do from looking into 39 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: the eyes of so many killers. Again, I Nancy Grace's 40 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: Crime Stories I want to thank you for being with us. 41 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: You were just hearing part of an incredible series Netflix series, 42 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: The Confession Killer. I want you to take a listen 43 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: to this. Kate Ridge. Kate was eighty two years old, 44 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: lived by ourself. The family member told the sheriff that 45 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: there was a suspect in her mind of Henry Lee 46 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 1: Lucas and he was living with Kate for a while. 47 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: We did a lot of searching for the body. We 48 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: found Kate's purse thrown over a bridge, so you know 49 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: that pretty well told me that the body was probably 50 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: still in the vicinity. After about a month of work 51 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: in this case, I realized that we also got a 52 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: fifteen year old girl missing. She went by Becky, but 53 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: her name was Frida Little Pale. She was Henrycy girlfriend 54 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: Becky's missing. Kate smissing, Henrycy common denominator. He was a 55 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: pretty good suspect. Well, I've said many many times, there 56 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: is no coincidence in criminal law. With me an all 57 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,799 Speaker 1: star panel to break it down, put it back together. 58 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor author I've read flags. You can 59 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: find her at Wendy Patrick PhD dot com. Doctor Daniel Bober, 60 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: renowned forensic psychiatrists. He's on Instagram at doctor Daniel Bober. 61 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: Steve Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door. If that 62 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: doesn't give you a chill down your spine, I don't 63 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: know what does. Your website is awesome, Stephen Lampley dot com. 64 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree joining me. Medical examiner out of South 65 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: Carolina and author of a fantastic book that I appreciate, 66 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Old Guide. But right now to wc IV 67 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: ABC four Charleston reporter Ann Emerson, and I'm trying to 68 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: get my mind wrapped around Henry Lee Lucas because either 69 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: he's the biggest hoaxter that ever lived, or he may 70 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: be responsible for as many as six hundred murders in 71 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: twenty six states. I mean, this guy even murdered his 72 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: own mother. Ann Emerson, WCIVA, what can you tell me? 73 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: You know, this is one of those cases that just 74 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: is so chilling. And he really set the stage when 75 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: he first announced this sort of killing spree that he 76 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: was on, and that's what probably just caught my attention 77 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: right off the bat. He waited until he was in 78 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: a court, He waited until all the cameras were on, 79 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: and then he says to the judges, he's about to, 80 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: you know, face these crimes that we already knew about 81 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: with h from his mom to Becky to Kate Ridge. 82 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: He says, well, what are you going to do about 83 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: the other hundred women I killed? And I think that 84 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: that must sud just I mean, been such a shock 85 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: to everybody in the community, everybody in an anybody that 86 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: was able to watch that. I just I think that 87 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: was the turning point where it was like, wait a minute, 88 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: there's more to this. And here's the thing that really 89 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: gets me that I really wanted to think about here 90 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: was there's always something in the middle. There is truth 91 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: somewhere in this middle. And that's probably what's thinking the 92 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: families just a nerve now of what was true and 93 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: what wait a minute, wait a minute. Imagine all these 94 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: families that don't know what happened to their child or 95 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: their sister there, their aunt, their girlfriend. Now I noticed something, 96 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: Anne Emerson WCIV that we've said, his mother, his elderly renter, 97 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: his landlord, his fifteen year old girlfriend. They're all women. 98 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: Is that correct, Anne Emerson? That's right? And you know 99 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: it sounds like he had a very abusive relationship with 100 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: his mother. They talk about how she beat him severely 101 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: to the point and this is so interestingly they really 102 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: kind of examine it whether or not he was beaten 103 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: so badly that he had severe brain damage in certain 104 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: parts of his brain. And Anne, please don't do that 105 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: to me. Do not start blaming his mother. For all 106 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: I know, she was a she devil from hell, but 107 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: he's the one that apparently has killed six hundred people. 108 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: You can only blame the mother for so long. And Emerson, 109 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: you're right, and you know what, that's what I think. 110 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: That's what one of the most disturbing parts of this is. 111 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: Everybody's had at some point a problem with a relationship. 112 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: It's how you manage it. And you certainly don't go 113 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: on a killing spree after all this. But there is 114 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: something he literally says, and you can hear him talk 115 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: about this, that he hated women. Time stories with Nancy Grace, 116 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: we learned that Henry went to prison in nineteen sixty 117 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: for killing his mother, did some time in the pen 118 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: and the psychiatric cord for a period of time. My 119 00:08:53,760 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: theory was that he killed Becky and then Kate figured 120 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: it out and that's why he killed Kate. He come 121 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: up to the Sheriff's office with us, friendly enough, act 122 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: like he was sinceris, but there was nothing we could 123 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: hold him on. He was pretty impressed that we had 124 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: already gathered a lot of information on him. He said, 125 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: I guess since you found all that out about me, 126 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: you know about that warrant on me. I said, Praise 127 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,719 Speaker 1: the Lord, and the back of my mind, I said, yeah, 128 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: that's out of Florida, and I started shuffling looking forward 129 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: in my papers. He said, no, I'm Michigan, you know. 130 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: I said, that's right, that's right, And I said, what 131 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: was that far? He said, wells originally for stealing the car, 132 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: but the warrants for probation violation. So I got the 133 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: warrant number and then when he come back, we put 134 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: him in jail. I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, 135 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: and you're hearing our friends over at Netflix and the 136 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: Confessional Killer. We are talking about conceivably the most prolific 137 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: serial kill in the country. Henry Lee Lucas. You know, 138 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: you hear of Bundy, you here of gay Cy, you 139 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: hear of the night Stalker. But this guy has them 140 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: all beaten, claiming up to six hundred murders, and right 141 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: now I believe him. Now, let's talk about what is 142 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: a probation violation to Wendy Patrick, California Prosecutor, all the 143 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: red flags, Wendy in a nutshell, explain it. Well, you're 144 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: put on probation as opposed to going to prison, and 145 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: probation means you have to abide by terms and conditions 146 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: set by the court. So it's interesting in many cases 147 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: where maybe somebody doesn't commit a new crime, if you 148 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: violate one of those terms and conditions, you can be jailed, 149 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: You can be brought back to jail, you can be fined, 150 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: your probation can be extended, and in many cases, if 151 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: it's bad enough, your probation can actually be revoked and 152 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: you can go to prison, which is a much more 153 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: serious penalty. So for somebody to have a warrant out 154 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: probrobation revocation not a new crime, but a potentially could 155 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: be a new crime, depending on what the person did. Okay, 156 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, you sound like you're reading straight out of 157 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: the OCGA, the Official Criminal Code of Georgia annotated. Let 158 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: me just say it in regular people talks it's not 159 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: all of us went to law school. Bottom line, you 160 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: get convicted on one thing and you can't even make 161 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: it through probation. You get a sweet deal. You don't 162 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: go to jail, You get probation, and you can't even 163 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: behave long enough to get through your probation period. Say 164 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: you get your shotlift, you get three years probation. What 165 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: what do you do? Run out steal a car. That 166 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: is a probation violation if you do it within those 167 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: three years. That's what I'm talking about. Although, of course, Wendy, 168 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: you're perfectly correct, and this guy is telling them, which 169 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: blows your theory to smitherings. My dear Anne Emerson WCIV 170 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: ABC four that oh maybe he had some type of 171 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: a mental illness. Did you hear this? This sheriff he 172 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: walked up, He was quote friendly, sincere said, I guess 173 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: you found out about my warrant. Oh excuse me, h 174 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: double L. I quit cursing when the twins were born. 175 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: Oh h L. Yes, he knew exactly what he's doing 176 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: coming up talking about a probation warrant. Oh yeah, he 177 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: was playing them like a fiddle. And what that means 178 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: is he was arrested on one thing. Then he steals 179 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: a car and he's got a probation violation warrant out 180 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: on him, and that's how it all starts to break down. 181 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: You know what's crazy, Steve Lampley, detective author outside your door. 182 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: Criminals can be very charming. This is a sheriff saying 183 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: he was very friendly and sincere, he's a freaking serial killer. 184 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: What do you mean friendly and sincere, Nancy, that's correct. 185 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: So so many criminals are do have that personality, and 186 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: you have to be able to ignore that. You have 187 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: to be able to look past that facade to the 188 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: real person, the real underlying person, the real underlying criminal, 189 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: potential criminal, whether that you're taughting to. They are very charming, 190 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, all of them are very charming. He can 191 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: be very charming, but you have to look beyond that. 192 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: You know. I'm so glad you said Ted Bundy, Steve Lampley, 193 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: because we all know Ted Bundy prolific serial killer. But 194 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: one thing a lot of people don't know about Ted 195 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: Bundy is that he was a necrophiliac, which means he 196 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: had a fascination with dead bodies, and many of his 197 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: victims I hope everybody's sitting down. You may need to 198 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: lay down for this. Bundy would get his female victims, 199 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: take them back to his home, bathe their dead bodies, 200 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: apply makeup, apply makeup, and fix their hair, and then 201 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: have sex with their dead body or their body parts. 202 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: There are reports he had sex with one of his victims, 203 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: severed head and kept it in the fireplace until his 204 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: girlfriend was coming home. Then he burned it so she 205 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't see it. That's certainly something to think about. But 206 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: you're saying he's so charming. I'll let you stew on that. 207 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: Steve Lampley in the meantime, speaking of necrophilia. Listen, he said, 208 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: I'll have to show you where Becky is, but it's 209 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: not a pretty sad he said. If you'll dig out there, 210 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: you'll find a pillow case with part of her. The 211 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: legs are out that a way or heads this away. 212 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: And then I brought him back to Dent and PD 213 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: to be intro game. We kept arguing, cussing each other. 214 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: Inn that was it when I hit it with a 215 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: knight okay, And after after that part happened, he recalled, 216 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: what you did that? Yes, I took for Pioneers and 217 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: a brawl, and I had thanks for lunning for it. 218 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: That's one of those things that I guess you got 219 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: to be a part of my life. Had alectrounic Port 220 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: to the bed after after she's dead, and after you've 221 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: had sex with her? What happened this? Well after that, 222 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: I cut her up in Little King of Feza. You know, 223 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: he told me I'll killed the only girl I've ever loved. 224 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: At least it bothered him a little bit. Did he 225 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: killed Becky? Well, apparently it didn't, because he continued to 226 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: killing sprees up to possibly six hundred women, parents, family's, husband's, 227 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: boyfriend's sisters grieving what happened to their loved one. They 228 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: still don't know. Was she a victim of Henry Lee Lucas? 229 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: And just by the way, did you hear him and 230 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: Emerson w CIV. He might as well have been saying, 231 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'll have a cheeseburger. Let us into meta. 232 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: You know what hold of me o? The way he 233 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: was describing having sex with his girlfriend's dead body before 234 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: dismembering her. And you know the thing is is I 235 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: don't think there was any calculation. I mean, this was 236 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: this was a reaction. It was an impulse. I think 237 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: it was an example of someone who just went for 238 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: it whenever he felt like it. There was no filter, 239 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: and this guy killed randomly and as much as he 240 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: wanted to. And there was obviously a very sexual deviant 241 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: part of it that that was where he waited until 242 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: they were dead before he did what he did to 243 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: the bodies, and then he just chopped him off. And 244 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: you can say it you're on crime stories when you 245 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: say he did what he did. What he did was 246 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: brutally butcher a fifteen year old girl and then have 247 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: sex with her dead body and talks about it as 248 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: calmly as if he's, you know, returning an overdue book 249 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: to the library. To doctor Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, 250 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: renowned and author of homicide investigation Field Guy, doctor Dupree, 251 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: question to you, when, and I know you've seen it 252 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: all literally conducting thousands of autopsies, how do you identify 253 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: a body when you have something like a severed leg? 254 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't have a fingerprint, you don't have teeth, 255 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: to do dental X rays? What do you do, doctor Dupre, 256 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: Especially a severed leg that's found out in a field 257 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: and it's been there for years. Well, Nanthy, hopefully we're 258 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: able to get some DNA. We may not be able 259 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: to get the normal DNA that we think of, the 260 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: nuclear DNA, but there is something called mitochondrial DNA, So 261 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: if we have an idea who the person might be, 262 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: then we may be able to match it up with 263 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: a female relative through the mitochondrial DNA. There may also 264 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: be some seam markers or something that may have been 265 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: buried with that body part that may help us identify 266 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: that person clothing. I'm even a tattoo or a birthmark 267 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: that may be on the leg if that is still visible, 268 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: that we may be able to help track back to 269 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: who that person is. You know, a doctor dupree, I'm 270 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: a JD, not an MD, but having grilled so many 271 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: medical examiners, usually in their office because they're typically a 272 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: state's witness, trying to figure out what the hey they're 273 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: saying when you're referring to nuclear versus mitochondrial DNA. Nuclear, 274 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: the let me just say jeans for lack of a 275 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: better word, of the mother and the father of both, 276 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: which gives you your individual DNA. Nobody else has your 277 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: DNAs like a fingerprint. But mitochondrial is DNA that has 278 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: origins strictly from your mom. And you can get that, 279 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: for instance, from a hair without a root. A root 280 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: is a nucleus. So question when several lug let's just say, 281 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: for the heck of it, doctor Dupree has been out 282 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: in a field for let's just say twenty years, where 283 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: do you get the DNA? Nancy? We may be able 284 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: to get that from the bone marrow. There will be 285 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: no tissue, of course left, but there may be enough 286 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: in the bone marrow to still get that mitochondrial DNA. 287 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: That's the one thing about mitochondrial DNA is a last forever, 288 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: well not truly forever, but for a very long time. 289 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace to judge asking do you 290 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: understand that you're being charged with murder? I'm sitting there 291 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: an open court, m you know, casually listening, and all 292 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: of a sudden, Lucas just blurts out, well, judge, what 293 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: are we going to do about these other one hundred 294 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: women I killed? From that point it went to hell 295 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: in a hand. Basked, quick in here and you said 296 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: you killed O'RONI wind that true? Wow, what a way 297 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: to announce it in open court on another matter. And 298 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: then you say, with a court room full all of 299 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: lawyers and reporters, the judge, the other inmates, what are 300 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: you going to do by those other hundred women? I 301 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: killed Henry Lee Lucas most likely the most prolific serial 302 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: killer in America and Emerson wc IV, ABC four. So 303 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: that's exactly what you were saying. And by the way, 304 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: you were hearing from our friends over at Netflix on 305 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: the confession killer and he had a flare, did he not? 306 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: I mean the timing, the timing of making that announcement. 307 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: What does it say? It says that he knew how 308 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: to make an entrance for sure. I mean he opened 309 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: up this this world. I mean, if I could not 310 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: have written a lead in better than that, there's no way. 311 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: And to have that kind of hook on a whole 312 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: community that is trying to grapple with all of these 313 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: missing women, and it could be your loved one you're 314 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: hearing for the first time, Well what about the other 315 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: one hundred women? Immediately people think, oh my, do you 316 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: remember that case back when you know, three years ago, 317 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: two years ago, that string of murders down this highway. 318 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: You know, you immediately start thinking, oh, my gosh, he 319 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: is going to give us everything. And so from a 320 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: I would think from a law enforcement perspective, then that 321 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: opens up all of this this new work. But then 322 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: you also just have this guy who wants to talk, 323 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: and he really wants to talk. Explain to me, doctor 324 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, the forensic psychiatrist guys joining me out of 325 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: the Florida jurisdiction. You can find him on Instagram, doctor 326 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober. Doctor Bober, explain to me this mindset of 327 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: a serial killer. Let me just give an example. You 328 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: know what, when I walk through Central Park and I 329 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: see a little rabbit cross my path, my impulse is 330 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: not to go chase it down and tear its neck 331 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: out with my teeth. My impulse is to say, look John, 332 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: David and Lousy, look at the bunny. Okay. So there's 333 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: a difference in the thinking of a predator like Henry 334 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: Lee Lucas and a normal person. As we use the 335 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: word normal, Nancy, this is a guy who's intoxicated by attention. 336 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: He's doing all this to basically hold the victims families 337 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: as an emotional hostage. He wants as much fame as 338 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: much glory. He's a narcissist, he's a psychopath. And yes, 339 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: there are differences in the way that psychopaths process the 340 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: world a lot. I know you don't want to hear this, 341 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: but a lot of times they have abuse, they have 342 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: neglect that of course that doesn't excuse their behavior, or 343 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: they have absent mother figures. I mean there are some 344 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: Why is it always the mother with you, bober, Why 345 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: do you never say anything about the father. It's always 346 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: the mother. Well, it's always the mother with you. Between 347 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: a mother, the relationship between a mother and a child 348 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 1: is something that's very sacred and there's nothing like it, 349 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: as I'm sure you very well know. But you know, 350 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: even Ted Bundy at the end of his life was 351 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: it was confessing to murders that he had no connection 352 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: to just for more attention, for more fame, for more um. 353 00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: You know, it got him off to know that all 354 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: the people were sort of at the edge of their 355 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: seat waiting for him to tell people the authorities where 356 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: the bodies were. So this is very similar. You know what. 357 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: I hate Ted Bundy and we don't say that h 358 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: weren't in our home. I hate him so much because 359 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: he ruined so many lives, and I've spoken with some 360 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 1: of his victims that managed to live, and the way 361 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: they describe him, it was charming sometimes. But the look 362 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: in his eyes. One victim told me it was like 363 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: the devil, the actual devil was behind his eyes. I 364 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: want to follow up on something doctor Daniel Bober, renowned 365 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: forensics psychiatrists, just said Listens Presley was supposed to be 366 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: the biggest shot. But I think I even beat the 367 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: elders Presley, and I think I even beat what's his name, 368 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: Adolf Hitler. Seemed like I would have going to beat him. 369 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: God seemed like every time they would bring a murder 370 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: case in, I would accept it no matter what it was. 371 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: Henry Lee Lucas road Show was in full swing, and Lucas, 372 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: who had lived all his life as a bump, was 373 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: bosking in his a Kim. I had everything. I wanted, 374 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: everything possible that a man could want. I had. I 375 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: had money I didn't have. I had a colored television 376 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: I didn't have before. I had cable TV and I 377 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: didn't have that before. I had all kinds of food, 378 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: even stacks of cigarettes in cartons on in my house. 379 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: That's coming from nothing. Wow. He certainly has bragging rights 380 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: to nearly six hundred murders. That's ninety three TV program 381 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: Henry Lee Lucas Confessions of a serial Killer and John Woodvine. 382 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: You know what, this guy is an enigma to so 383 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: many people. He sounds so dashing, he sounds so mm 384 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: charming and debonair. But the reality is that's not what 385 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: killers are. They're all the same. And I'm sure an 386 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: emer w CIV and doctor Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists are 387 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: going to disagree with me, But I see it in 388 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 1: black and white. Serial killers are the devil. Think about it. 389 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: A fifteen year old girl his quote girlfriend. He's a 390 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: grown man with a fifteen year old girlfriend that he murders, 391 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: that he rapes after she's dead, then he dismembers her body. 392 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: That's what a serial killer is. He's comparing himself to 393 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: Elvis for Pete's sake. But let's talk about the reality 394 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: to you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor in TV on the air. 395 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: In the media, killers criminals are very often glorified. I 396 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: don't understand that. Maybe it's because I know the reality 397 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: of criminals, of killers. I mean, Wendy, you've been on 398 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: a murder scene, right, Oh, absolutely, Nancy. And you know 399 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: you mentioned looking into the eyes of a murderer in court, 400 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: while I do the same thing when the jury is 401 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: not there. And when you look into the eyes of 402 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: the psychopath, particularly after they've recounted their crime in detail, 403 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: they don't just look sort of matter of fact. Sometimes 404 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: they look excited, proud, almost basking in the glory. And 405 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: the attention that they're receiving is I think several other 406 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: guests now have mentioned. So then you go to the 407 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: crime scene, as you're saying, and you can't believe it's 408 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: the same guy that's dressed up in court just wowing 409 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: the jury with the articulation. Sometimes because you don't have 410 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 1: some very intelligent people come to some of these crimes, 411 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: and we all remember just the kind of celebrity status 412 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: that Richard Ramirez, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, remember all the 413 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: women that were writing and wanting to marry these men. 414 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: These are some of the reasons people want to talk 415 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: about the crimes they've committed, especially a guy like this 416 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: that went from bum to celebrity, how by killing and 417 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: then boasting about killing, and then at least arguably boasting 418 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: about even killing people that maybe he didn't to doctor 419 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree, down South Carolina medical examine or author of 420 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Doctor dupre, let's get real about 421 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: murder and a murder scene. They are horrible. You go 422 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: to a murder scene, it smells. It smells of decay, 423 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: it smells of blood. I can't really describe that smell 424 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: of human blood that coagulates and gets sticky, and it's 425 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: all over everything, and there's hair stuck in it. It's 426 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: something you'll never forget once you smell it, once you 427 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: see it, once you're in that room or in that 428 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: open field, once you see that first homicide victim. It's 429 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: not glamorous, it's awful, and it is stuck with me 430 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: for the rest of my life, Doctor Michelle Dupre. Nancy, 431 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: You're right, you will never forget that. There's nothing like 432 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: the smell of blood. It's that whether it's a rust 433 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: or whatever kind of smell it is, you don't forget it. 434 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: There's just nothing like it. One thing though, most murder 435 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: scenes have many similarities, but yet they're all very, very different. 436 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: And so when we walked through a crime scene, we're 437 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: looking for a couple of things. We're kind of looking 438 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: to see if it's organized or disorganized. A murder scene, 439 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 1: it's a murder, but when we try to determine if 440 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: it's organized or disorganized, that will tell us something about 441 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: the killer. And that's one clue that we actually can 442 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: have that will do something for us. Crime stories with 443 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, the first compression was Lucas was just a 444 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: dirt ball. I was horrified by the smell. He was 445 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: one eyed and his other eye dripped. He had three, 446 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: maybe four teeth. He was a pitiful looking gentleman. Really 447 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: smelled bad. A dirt ball, missing teeth. How the heck 448 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: did this guy charm anybody? I mean, when you look 449 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: back at some serial killers, some people, not me, of course, 450 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: think they're attractive, like Bundy. They function in our society 451 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: normally seemingly like BTK buying torture killed. Dennis Rader was 452 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: a dogcatcher, which told me a lot about him. Right there, 453 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: that had a wife and children, was a deacon at 454 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: his church. This guy, how did he get access to women, 455 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: much less hundreds of them? He smelled, he had a 456 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: roving I literally three or four teeth. What did they 457 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: feel sorry for him? And then he attacked them. You're 458 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: hearing from our friends over at Netflix saying the confession 459 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: killer about potentially the most prolific serial killer in US history. 460 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: And here's the big question. If he didn't kill all 461 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: the victims, then who did victims family is now demanding 462 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: new investigations into six hundred murders. Lucas admitted to straight 463 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: out to and Emerson WCIV ABC four cops coaxing him 464 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: into confession in exchange for milkshakes and national coverage. I mean, 465 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: he's talking about everything he has. Does he not understand 466 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: that authorities are playing him like a fiddle and Emerson 467 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: to get more information from him? Well? Absolutely, I mean 468 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of things going on. And 469 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: back to that point of who would let somebody like 470 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: this end? There were some he talked about how he 471 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: looked so pathetic. He come to a door and he 472 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: would open the door and they would say he would say, 473 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: can I get a glass of water? And he goes 474 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: that was their mistake. They would let me in the 475 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: front door. That sort of pathetic nature that he played 476 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: on that as well, he knew that he looked pathetic 477 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: and that's why people trusted him. These women trusted him. 478 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: He said. Now, as far as happened with the law enforcement, 479 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, this was innovative. Back then. They had an 480 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: investigative task force brought in from all over the country 481 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: twenty six states where they wanted to find answers for families. 482 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: They were desperate to find answers, and this guy was 483 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: willing to not only give um answers, draw pictures of 484 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: these women, who had a whole notebook full of pictures. 485 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: They would send these pictures all over the country. I mean, 486 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: this was an orchestrated event, and it was getting fed 487 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: by this need to find answers for people who had 488 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: been missing loved ones for years now. But the problem 489 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: here is is that at the same time, we've got 490 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: this feeding frenzy on serial killer fascination happening. At the 491 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: same time, the idea of a serial killer is a 492 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: new phenomenon. Supposedly, you know, this is like all those 493 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: sudden people are learning what a serial killer is, and 494 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: there is this morbid fascination that we're also feating. So 495 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: it's like the perfect storm. It's the perfect storm for 496 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: someone like this to basically get away with murder or 497 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: confessed to a bunch of ones that he never did. Well, 498 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: here's the kicker. And this is not about politics. You 499 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: know how I hate talking about politics. I don't like 500 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: Republicans and I don't like Democrats. I don't like Greens. 501 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: I don't like any of them because I think they're 502 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: all lying. But I can tell you this, George W. 503 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: Bush commuted his descendance shocker, Yes, oh yes he did. 504 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: Bush commuted his sentence, his death sentence when he was 505 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: a Texas governor because he did not believe he had 506 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: committed a murder that he had admitted to. Right now, 507 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: families all over the country are begging for cases to 508 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: be reopened with the thought that this guy, Henry Lee 509 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: Lucas is the killer. How many people did he kill? 510 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,959 Speaker 1: I know Marla Sharp, twenty six, was killed in her 511 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: Provo apartment while her roommates were out. She's absolutely beautiful, 512 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: a Utah college student murdered. And there are so many more, 513 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: their families begging did you hear what Anne just said, 514 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: doctor Bober? How he would approach people at their door, 515 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: maybe this girl, this Utah college student, and say, man, 516 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: I have a glass of water. I mean, it's hard 517 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: to turn down somebody who just wants a glass of water. Bober. Yeah, Nancy, 518 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: it's very similar to what Bundy did when he was 519 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: walking around on college campuses with a you know, a 520 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: splint and holding books in his hands. Can you just 521 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: help me with these books and just open the other 522 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: door of the car for me. I mean, it's it's 523 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: part of the psychopathic mentality, which is exploiting people's vulnerabilities 524 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: because people, by nature are good and they want to help, 525 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: and you know, you use that against them to get 526 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: what you want. Guys, we are talking about a serial killer, 527 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: Henry Lee Lucas, and it's amazing to me that while 528 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: he is behind bars, he walks around freely, practically lives 529 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: off strawberry milkshakes, and is treated more like an assistant 530 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: of trustee than a serial killer. Um, what is his 531 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: exact murder count? We don't know. Evidence that he points 532 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: to including a bag of bones. Okay, doctor bow Bran, 533 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: need to shrink again really quickly. He had a bag 534 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 1: of bones. Well again, you know, many killers will keep 535 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: trophies of their victims, but with this guy, it's really 536 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: hard to know which of the actual murders and which 537 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: is just sort of braggadocio. I want to go back 538 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: to Anne Emerson WCIV and what is a realistic tally 539 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: of how many murders Henry Lee Lucas is responsible for? 540 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: And what is the resistance of reopening cases? I don't 541 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: understand it. I mean, how hard is it to reopen 542 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: a case and try to get a DNA match with 543 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: all the revolutionary new DNA technology, and you know, and 544 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: they're gonna push so hard for this. I think that 545 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: there are some communities, that law enforcement communities that are 546 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: going to be more open to it because it's just 547 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: so obvious that there was a mistake here. It could 548 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: be up to one hundreds. He never would This guy 549 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: would never even give a real number of women he 550 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: killed in certain areas. He was vague, And so we're 551 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: looking at you know, he threw out that hundred women 552 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: number at the very top. I would I think that 553 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: they're looking somewhere around that range, because yes, he did. 554 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: You know, as soon as you discounted this guy for 555 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: not being a killer, he would point you to a 556 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: deer stand where there were bones, where there was a 557 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: credibility there. We just don't know how far he took this. Well, 558 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: we know right now is that certain cases aren't being reopen, 559 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: but very few listen. It all started when Marla's cousin 560 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: met Kara Porter with the Utah Old Case Coalition. I 561 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: gave her what information I had and just asked her 562 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: if she could take a second look at it, that 563 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: I would appreciate that I had never thought that Henry 564 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: Lucas committed the murder. Three months later, Valerie Colgan's phone rang. 565 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,479 Speaker 1: She said, we don't believe that he did it either. 566 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,240 Speaker 1: HERR says they found new evidence that proves Lucas didn't 567 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: do it. This week, the Provo Police Department says they 568 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,919 Speaker 1: have reopened Marla's case. This monster is out there doing 569 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: who knows what. Each day, Leah says she thinks about 570 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: her sister and what happened on that tragic day. Now, 571 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: she says, she hopes to find the truth one she 572 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: already thought she had one years later. It's gonna be really, 573 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: really difficult. Kara Porter with the Utah Cold Case Coalition 574 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: tells me that she believes Henry Lee Lucas could have 575 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: wrongly confessed to more than ninety murders. That's why the 576 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: coalition has decided to start a Facebook page and a 577 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: website to help other families find out who actually killed 578 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: their loved ones. You're hearing our friends at Fox thirteen 579 00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: News as Utah reporters Sydney Glynn. Can you imagine losing 580 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: your loved one to murder and never having an answer? 581 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: The hell that would be? We wait as justice unfolds, 582 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: and to Henry Lee Lucas wrought in hell. Nancy Grace cried, 583 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: story siding off, goodbye friend,