WEBVTT - Kyle Franz - Part 2 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.000 Thanks for tuning into the Frida Egg Podcast. This is 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.880 Part two of the Kyle Franz Pod. If you miss 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:07.960 Part one, check it out on our website or in 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:10.760 the iTunes or stitch your feet. And part two we 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:13.920 discuss golf in the British Islands, the ground game and 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:17.880 professional golf, desert golf, and we do our segment of 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.439 overrated and Underrated. Thanks again for listening and be sure 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:23.920 to check out our newsletter. The easiest way to keep 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:27.080 up with golf sign up on our website, the Frida 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:30.840 Egg dot com. And enough of me. Here's Part two 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:32.120 of the Kyle Franz Pod. 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:34.879 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:37.240 When I find my ball in the bumper, I'm really upset. 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:38.280 And when I find my. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.680 Ball in a Frida Egg, Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday, 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.320 Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie. 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:46.440 I'm about ready to run off the golf course. 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.600 So you've you've spent an extensive amount of time in 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:16.880 the in the British Isles. 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:19.759 Where would if. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:21.600 You were going to do one trip you know to 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.880 We'll say a certain area to see golf, uh and 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:30.720 architecture which which like small area would you focus on. 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.640 You know, it's pretty hard to argue with Thelovians uh 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.759 around around Edinburgh, you know, you get such a unique, 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.440 such a unique uh string of golf courses. You can 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.600 see that Mirrorfield is obviously such a great classic course 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.920 and really just like sturdy architecture that most everybody will like, 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.240 you know, Uh, it kind of lacks to a degree 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.720 some of the kind of quirky stuff that a lot 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:05.200 of us appreciate and in golf in the UK, but 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.520 it's just a great sturdy course. You just really can't 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.640 argue with it as being one of the best courses 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.880 in the world. And then to the complete opposite end 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.920 of the spectrum you've got, you know, North Berrick is 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.880 just down the road, which you know, I I would 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:24.080 say most of my architectural friends, you know, people that 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:28.840 I work with, people like Gil and Tom and uh Bill, 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:33.119 you know, they all my friends, I think to a man, 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.280 would would rank North Berrick among their favorite courses because 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.360 you get just so much weird, fun, crazy British architecture. 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:42.680 You know, it's great coastline, it's a beautiful place. But 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:44.880 where else do you get to play, you know, a 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.160 whole like like the same as pit where you know 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.400 you're batting your ball out in the fairway and tend 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.240 to stop it on a green right behind a rock wall. 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.000 You know, you get to you get all the quirk 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:59.400 value that uh that you can get a great links 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.679 golf course architecture over there and in in one one 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:04.240 setting there and then there's a lot of you know, 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:08.120 like great secondary courses there. You know, obviously Golan's a 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:15.080 great old classic. A couple of courses there, you know, luffness, uh, 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:20.320 you know, great great architecture. Dunbar just down the road 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:22.639 is a really good course that kind of flies under 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.239 the radar you when to talk about you know, under 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:26.840 the radar stuff. That's a pretty cool place. And you 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:29.680 know I've always that's that would be the one market 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.120 that I would love to personally, you know, jump into 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.680 as as a restoration architect. Uh is stuff over there. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.320 You know, I spent my year overseas studying golf courses 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:40.880 over there, and uh, that was the thing that I 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:42.760 always kind of thought about it, So go to places. 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.120 How much fun it would be the consult at a 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:48.360 at a place like that Dunbar or phraser Bor what 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:53.120 have you that uh, you know, with just a little 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:55.800 help on waterhole here, one hole there, one hole there, 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:57.720 you could do so you can turn one of those 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:00.920 call courses into something really, really amazing. They already are 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.760 really really good golf courses. But you know, it would 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.240 come as no surprise having worked on you know, uh, 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:13.160 the likes of Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle uh as I 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:15.760 started my career, and then having spent all the time 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:21.640 overseas in the UK, I'm a huge fan of links architecture, 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.240 so it would be fun to work on some of 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.080 those kinds of places over there, you know. And obviously 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.960 the financials of clubs are so different from the United 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:34.640 States that you know, uh, it requires somebody being really 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:36.360 patient and working with a club over a span of 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.320 probably two decades actually get it where they wanted to go. 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.080 But it's not like, you know, they have the financials 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:47.000 to do a massive you know, restoration or what have you, 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.560 you know, summertime like we do here. So that's where 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.279 you know, you know, mid Pins we did. You know, 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:56.320 we did the project essentially in house, with a bunch 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.120 of shapers and finishing guys that I brought in. No contractors, 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:02.240 et cetera. You know, so I've always kind of been 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.880 having worked on this projects for Tom and Bill and Ben, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.160 you know, Pacific Dunes, there was no contract or whatsoever. 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.320 I've always kind of trying and build my business model 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.719 that I could potentially do, you know, projects kind of 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:20.120 kind of like that someday. But that's really my favorite 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.679 favorite region of the country is is there. It's all good. 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.599 I mean I have a hard time saying that over 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:28.720 some of the places we mentioned earlier with Dornick and 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:32.000 Brora and and Taine and Gulspy up north. 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:34.120 But when you in. 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.280 Terms of world class architects, it's pretty hard to beat. 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.359 The Lothians pretty good. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:44.200 With regards to restoring courses in like Scotland versus. 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:45.920 Like so in America we see like a. 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.839 Lot of the same problems with like overgrowth of trees, 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:50.560 shrinkage or greens. 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.080 You know, narrow or far aways. 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:56.520 What are some of the issues that you see in 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.919 Scotland and Ireland and the UK at courses? 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.480 Are they different or pretty much the same? 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.520 It's all the same game. It's it's it's about the 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.400 particulars that you're working on, you know, I think The 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.240 thing that I saw probably the most is it was 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.359 always clear to me that there were there was a 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:16.960 lot of golf courses that I went to. There was 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.239 like maybe one or two greens where it was obviously 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.560 it was probably like the coolest and craziest green in 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.160 the golf course. They didn't be kind of flattened out 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.440 and changed over the decades. Where it had just been 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.680 kind of flattened out. It was something very bland and 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.440 it was not really indicative of of what it was 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:35.920 laid out to be. You know a lot of those 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.640 craziest greens over in the UK where it's just something 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.400 where it was on the ground that's what worked. And 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.320 they started bowing it there, you know, uh and uh. 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.479 And it had been kind of changed over time. You 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.520 know a lot of you know, bunker missing here, bunker 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.400 missing there, or you know a lot of the times 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:54.719 you know, it's just as simple of moving a fairway 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.000 around a little bit, you know, just mowing another ten 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:00.960 yards to the right, moving in you know, ten yards 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.159 from the left where it is being mown a fair way, 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:05.719 or expanding them back out and narrowing them down in 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:07.719 the right place. It's just you know, simple sort of 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.080 simple sort of stuff, but in the end it ends 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:12.760 up making all the difference kind of in the world 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:17.560 a lot of the time. So and also, you know, 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.080 in terms of bunker style, you know, there's a place 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:22.240 in southern England. I was just looking out on the 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:24.520 internet a couple of months ago there was an old 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.040 back to the previous architect that we talked about, Colt. 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.400 It was a course that he had done on the 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:33.880 coast that was on more uplan dy sort of ground. 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.080 It wasn't sand dunes and a Lynks golf course, but 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.080 more of like uplan dy sort of terrain with big 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.000 sort of like pebble beachy sort of cliffs, and you know, 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.800 the bunkers had all been kind of turned into uh 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.720 more like simplified renditions of of what there was originally 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.120 supposed to look like. You know, obviously for anybody that 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.200 kind of knows Cold's history built some really impressive bunkers, 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.920 really flashy and uh visually attractive stuff, and that stuff 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:00.920 had just been kind of white out on the golf 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.120 course over the span of you know, one hundred years. 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.000 So that's probably the main thing is, you know, restoring 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.320 bunker style, which is something that just doesn't really happen 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.320 over there, and I mean something has happened in the 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:14.240 last ten years or so. But I think if if 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.560 somebody had a really great restoration like stay in London, 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:20.800 one of those great old you know, coult courses, I 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:22.720 think it would probably break down the door to doing 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.080 a lot more all over the city in the region. 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:28.880 And that's the same. The same holds true for the 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:30.560 for the coastline in Britain. 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:30.720 You know. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.520 I think, you know, if if you'd hed a couple 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.200 of projects here, a couple of projects there, I think 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.240 it'd probably open the doors doing a lot of great 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.439 restoration working like that, and it's really kind of do 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:42.960 for it, you know. I think that's one thing that 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.600 hasn't been Again. There's been a few projects the last 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:48.559 few years that have kind of touched on that the UK, 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.080 but it's still restoration is still kind of a new 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.640 and blossoming conversation over there where. It's something we've obviously 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:57.559 been working very hard on in the States for the 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.360 last you know, ten and fifteen years years almost thirty 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.479 in some cases. 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:07.840 So we got a ton of questions from listeners. I 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.000 wanted to get to a few of them before we 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:15.800 get you out of here. So car for the course 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.360 had a good one here. Very few, if any, desert 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:24.040 courses are allotted as being architectural gems. How would you 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.920 approach a project in Palm Springs or like Scottsdale ever area. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:31.760 It's a very good question. 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.120 Yeah, hmm. 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:40.640 You know, I think the I think the thing that 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:45.720 I have not seen yet on a golf course out 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.480 of the desert, which I think would be very very 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:52.040 cool to see, would be something with a little bit more, 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.600 a little bit more like Pineer's Number two or Saint 0:09:55.640 --> 0:10:01.280 Andrew's influence, where the golf course relies less on bunkering 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:05.000 and more on really really fun shots on and around 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.800 the greens. You know, I think I worked on Stone 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:12.200 Eagle for for Calm yuh ten or fifteen years ago? 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:14.760 Ten years ago, I guess. And then you know, I've 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:16.480 been to I've been to a couple of Bill and 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:21.800 Ben's projects in the desert, and uh, I think that 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.360 I think those projects were all great. We've got some 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.520 really cool stuff at Stone Eagle, and I know that 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.000 Yllan Ben built some great stuff there. But I think 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.520 that's probably the one little missing link is that I 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:40.600 would love to see more palms or sorry, Pineer's number two, 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:46.360 Saint Andrewsy's sort of contouring, uh and even to agree, 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.120 like like prairie dunes where you get some really really good, 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:51.760 interesting kind of shot making and recovery shots aground with 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.840 the greens, you know, tipmo and a lot of interesting 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.160 fun kind of shots and uh stuff that almost like 0:10:58.240 --> 0:10:59.960 kind of forces you to play ground shots. You know. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.520 Hard thing with uh with building cool architecture in the 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.640 desert is a requires quite a bit of water obviously, 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.679 and be the turf types that you're gonna have are 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.880 always going to be not particularly prone to good ground 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.520 game architecture, which, of course is you know, when we're 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.960 talking about Bill and Ben and and and and uh 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.120 Tom and Gil, that's the one thing that I probably 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.000 should have started worth instead of uh ending with is 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:28.439 they're all committed to building great, classical cool ground game architecture. 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:32.079 And that's something that I'm always trying to push and uh, 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.880 but it's hard to do with warm season grasses because 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:38.760 it's so bushy and uh you know, so green and 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.640 uh and lush. You know, uh, so I think you'd 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.439 almost want to like over designed features, uh, you know, 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.600 on projects there and you know more Falloway greens, just 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:50.880 lots of cool st to really get it to where 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.280 uh you know, people want to try some really fun 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.440 interesting you know ground shots and and recovery shots. It's 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:00.280 it's it's harder harder to uh harder to do than 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:01.800 to just say it, you know. I think one of 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:06.000 the things in the real Olympics golf course that certainly 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:07.880 was the biggest challenge was trying to get players to 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.480 play ground shots and warm season grasses because the balls 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:12.520 of them or like the bounce that much. In some 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.240 places we were successful with it. In other ways, uh, 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:17.760 probably not as much as I would have liked to 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.280 have seen it, But uh, you know, I think I 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.280 think it's the key is is just how severe your 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:28.079 building features and how really how really dedicated are to 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.400 really really building stuff that really forces people to hit 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.120 hit some cool crazy shots like uh like you do 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:35.880 in different settings. 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.880 So forcing like guys that hit the ground shots. 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.320 I feel like the pros just don't hit them because 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.160 they don't have to hit them regularly, so they don't 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:47.559 have to practice them exactly. 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.600 You know. Uh, if if I ever am lucky enough 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.000 to uh you know, doing you know, design work on 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.520 courses from scratches on my own. I think that's probably 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.000 the area that'd probably be exploring to a degree. Is 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.560 is uh, you know, with the chain and technology in 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.439 the last twenty twenty five years, it's almost it was 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.200 almost like some of the cool stuff that we were 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.840 building was kind of dated the second that it opened 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.400 for that caliber player, where it still works very well 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.280 for average players. You know, there's a very few kinds 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.839 of holes in the world these days that'll make professional 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.600 level players thinking about, you know, hitting balls on the 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.079 on the ground and bouncing around some you know, obviously, 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.000 you know, the road hole in Saint Andrews is still 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.560 the timeless example of that. But even see a degree 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.280 in a hole like you know number five at Augusta. 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:32.840 You know, if the players hit into the rough on 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:34.839 the right hand side of that hole, they'll start thinking 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:36.760 about trying to hit the little skipper shot up onto 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:42.200 that little Saint Andrew's inspired ridgeline green because the you know, 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.040 the hazards off the backside of the green are so severe, 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:47.880 and they'll try and they'll try and bounce it up. 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.240 You know. I think oakmant is great for that and 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:52.920 the fact that you have so many fall away greens, 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.080 and in some cases of the greens are so severely 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.920 falling away from the players, you know, front to back 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:03.520 sloped greens that the players will are almost inevitably have 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.880 to give it a go like a whole, Like you know, 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.800 twelve at Oakmont, players have no choice if you're going 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:12.440 for that green, and so you have to think about 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:14.520 how it's going to bounce onto that green and even 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:16.360 the third shot, so you have to at least be 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.920 cognitive of the fact that the ball, even with a 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.480 wedge in your hand, isn't gonna spin like it normally would, 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.440 you know. So I think there's there's some interesting ways 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.800 to go about skinning that cat. And you know, it's 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.880 all about how you approach the overall theoretics of what 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.400 you're shaping, what you're designing, and uh, you know again 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.560 the paradox of scale that that we work what to 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:40.800 try and make architecture work wherever we are. So, but yeah, 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:42.840 I think that would be a fun golf course to 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.560 play at a desert. I would I would I would 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:47.360 like to play that course of bit. That would be fun. 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:53.880 Yeah, So Pablo Toledo has a question here thoughs on 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:59.120 doing a strict restoration versus a renovation that modernizes and 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.520 attempts to reac create the original design philosophy and intent. 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:06.280 So I repeat that one for me, that one. 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:12.440 So like a true pure restoration, we're putting everything back 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.840 into place where we saw it on this aerial photo, 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.960 versus a renovation that you know, tries to take what 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.680 the intent was and modernize it for today's game. 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.440 So you know, you might move bunkers. So ye, you know, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:28.200 thoughts on. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:33.040 Each and you know, well, I think that line is 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.880 always getting blurred, and I really don't know of I 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.960 don't think you can be successful in either format without 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:48.280 blurring them together. You know, I think that I think 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:52.120 that to do great restoration work, you really have to 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:57.320 put yourself in the mind of the original architect. And 0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:59.920 you know, certainly a lot of that is painting my numbers, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:04.240 looking at an aerial and uh and seeing what what 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.360 the was on the golf course originally and precisely where 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.840 everything's sat. And but you also have to take that 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:14.400 step back and ask the question, well why, uh, you know, 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.280 I think that if you know, if you went back 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.440 and and and attempted to do restoration by just simply 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.880 copying pasting, you know, uh, painting by painting by number, 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.160 you kind of miss uh that original intent. You know, 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:32.160 the game has evolved and changed so much that bunkers 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.160 will never only wind up in the wrong spot, or 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.720 if if you're not seeing the whole big picture very clearly, 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.040 you'll kind of miss the uh, the the end all 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:41.840 of what the original hole is trying to do. You know, 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.560 obviously we're talking about mid pints. Earlier, we were talking 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.120 about you know, Ross's intent with the styling of the holes, 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.160 and I think the thing that uh, you know, as 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:51.600 I alluded to, he try to make each of his 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.640 golf courses here a little bit different, uh. And the 0:16:55.680 --> 0:17:00.400 best way I can describe the importance of of of 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:05.879 really really studying the original design is the differences and 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:10.240 courses you know here here in Pinehurst. You know, Piner's 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.800 number two was supposed to have big wide fairways, fifty 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.000 yard wide fairways, and then on the outside of the 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.359 holes you had an extra buffer of another twenty to 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.399 twenty five yards before you got to the edge of 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.240 the clearing line into the trees. So it was big, 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:27.119 big wide corridors and big wide fairways, and then he 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:31.760 had these big long runs of seeing in the famous 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.080 sandy hardpan areas on the eats on each side of 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:38.000 the hole and midpines. His design philosophy was completely different. 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.800 The fairways were big and wide like Piner's Number two, 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.320 but he for the most part kind of excluded a 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.960 lot of those sandy hardpan areas on the edges of 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.679 each hole. Instead of of having that buffer, it just 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:52.520 went right into the woods. In the trees, you'd have 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.520 a little bit of sandy hardpan of wiregrass, but mostly 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.880 the holes just kind of went right into the woods. 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.800 And in between the holes it was very dense, thick, 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:05.120 bushy terrain. It would be wiregrass and wisteria and all 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.480 kinds of who knows what else was you know, growing 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:13.879 out in the southern jungles of North Carolina. So the 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.399 the idea was that, you know, Piner Number two was 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.280 meant to be a little bit more of a resort 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.879 friendly golf course where it was a bigger wire the 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.120 players could find their ball and playing on where Midponds 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:28.840 was meant to be kind of this very very intimate setting, 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.119 you know, hard golf course with the with the tighter 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:37.480 clearing lines and uh, the design evolved further from number 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.960 two in that in that category, you know, it has 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:45.640 more Midpinds has more bunkers front right and front left 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.760 of the green compared to number two, where most of 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:50.480 the holes have quite a bit of bunkering. But there 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.520 are actually some holes where there's a whole bail side. 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:54.240 You know, the first two holes at Pine Re Simber 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.480 two you can bail completely away into short type areas, 0:18:57.760 --> 0:18:59.920 away from all the bunkering around the greens, whereas Mid 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.600 there wasn't two holes like that in the entire golf course. 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.960 So the idea was that, you know, players could hit 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.120 t shots into the right sections of fairways and give 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.600 themselves good angles past all these front bunkers. You know, 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:15.320 if the pin was front lest, they could play into 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:16.919 the far right hand side of the fairway for a 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.560 decent angle. Vice versa, the pin was front right, they 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.800 could play to the other side. But to hit it 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:24.520 to the good angles the honey spots on each hole 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.040 for a good angle win you had to take on, 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.119 you know, all that brush and all the nasty stuff 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.160 that was lapping right at the edge of the fairways 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.000 as I was alluding to before. So there was you know, 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.000 to get to the good angles and strategize for a 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.520 good player on the t shots. They had to they 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:44.399 had to take on some some nasty stuff. They were 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.320 kind of taking their life in their own hands. Again, 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.919 just differences in philosophy. So when I was working on 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:55.920 Midpinds this restoration, all that junglely stuff around the edge 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.600 of the holes had been removed over the decades to 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.440 make it more resort from all the trees were still there, 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.959 so the general philosophy of the course still still kind 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.640 of held through to the original design. So a lot 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.639 of what I had to do was, you know, just 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.760 kind of stand on the teas and visualize, well, all 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.640 that stuff has gone now, but the trees are still there. 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.760 But again it feels a lot is a lot less 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.280 in the way of blood pumping through or die field 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:25.720 of the t shots that originally was intended. So what 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:27.359 do we need to add to the equation, How do 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:31.040 we need to approach adding bunker here or maybe bring 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.560 the sandy hardpain areas into the holes a little bit 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:35.480 more there. You know, it's again just trying to add 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:40.680 or approach you know, the restoration of the strategic hazards 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.080 around the holes in a manner that they would balance 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.399 out the fact that these other elements had been eliminated 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.280 over the span of of decades, and well it was 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:50.919 going to take to get the kind of blood pumping 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.880 shots back into the equation that that Ross had originally intended. 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.600 And if I was just looking down at an aerial 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:01.320 the golf course, you'd never figure out any of that stuff. 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.639 You can't just paint by numbers and be like, well, 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:05.760 that's what was there. So that's what we need to do. 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:08.040 You know, you need to kind of put yourself on 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.080 the head of what Ross would have been standing there 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:13.000