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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four,

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Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger.

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Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On

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Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our

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Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome the best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode seventy six, which is

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Speaker 1: first airing on January fifteenth. We are excited to welcome

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Speaker 1: our guest, Laurie Mihelich Levin to talk about returning to

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Speaker 1: work after maternity leave, always a popular topic for this podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk with her, and so is Sarah.

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Speaker 1: Sarah had a fun last year of sort of life

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Speaker 1: after baby. So are we We're going to do another post? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this pumping up dates after Life after Baby, Life after

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Speaker 1: Life after Baby. The pumping is done. Yeah, and I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to hear Lori's tips and tricks. But I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: much beyond that, and I got to say, guys, life

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Speaker 1: is really really much easier now, much much like I it. Now,

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Speaker 1: I realize how much stress I was experiencing every day

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Speaker 1: of my job when I go in, and like the

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Speaker 1: actual patient care part is like nothing compared to the

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Speaker 1: the anxiety that I was having surrounding like trying to

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Speaker 1: fit in those pump sessions, and then like my actual

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Speaker 1: feelings about those pump sessions. So like, it's just been

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Speaker 1: really fun. I enjoy work. I enjoy seeing my patients

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Speaker 1: so much more. I don't know if they can tell

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Speaker 1: I'm just much more engaged. I'm not. I don't have

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Speaker 1: my eye on the clock while I'm seeing them. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just been great. So I think it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a wonderful year. And I'm as much as I'm

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Speaker 1: enjoying the sort of end of that nursing relationship, we're

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Speaker 1: still doing it in the morning and at night. I'm

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Speaker 1: looking forward to eventually leaning that as well, because I

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Speaker 1: want to get to the point where I can, you know,

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Speaker 1: schedule a date night without having to think about, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well she's going to bed at this time, so we

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Speaker 1: can't go out till this time, and then by the

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Speaker 1: time we go out, I'm tired, and you get what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. I think I'm pretty much ready to move

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Speaker 1: on to the next phase of motherhood and it's going

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Speaker 1: to be a fun one. I'm glad I did it,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it's more pleasant. Note you're glad you did it.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad I did it. I am, even with all

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Speaker 1: the anxiety. I mean, I don't know. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: a curious point. The good question, you know, I because

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Speaker 1: it's true, like the last three months of it, you

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Speaker 1: know what, if I had to do it again, maybe

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Speaker 1: I maybe the last probably I think I've said this before,

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Speaker 1: like I did it for six months with Annabel, with

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Speaker 1: three months with Cameron, and for nine months with Genevie

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Speaker 1: the pumping, and I think maybe the six months was

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Speaker 1: more the limit and a good sweet spot because with

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Speaker 1: Annabel I could then nurse for a few months after

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Speaker 1: kind of get to that twelve month point, and then

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Speaker 1: it worked out better. Maybe maybe, I mean, who knows.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's very impossible to do your life over

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Speaker 1: and know how I would feel, And I guess I

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Speaker 1: just really wanted that experience of trying to do it

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Speaker 1: in a way but you're right, looking back, it was

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Speaker 1: it was pretty stressful. And it's almost like I see

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Speaker 1: that even more out of it than I did while

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Speaker 1: I was doing it. Yeah, no, I know. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's frustrating to stop what you're doing three times a

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Speaker 1: day and then sit connected to a machine like I

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Speaker 1: mean a milking machine as it were, and the major

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Speaker 1: and have it. So I think with my job, like

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Speaker 1: I have a number of patients to see, I have

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Speaker 1: like a defined start time and end time. That was

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Speaker 1: partially due to the fact that I needed to be

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Speaker 1: feeding her on the way out the door, and then

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Speaker 1: when I got home, like I didn't really have the

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Speaker 1: ability to like stay an extra hour or two if

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Speaker 1: I got behind at night, and I have patients with

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Speaker 1: predetermined appointment times where they might come late or you know,

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Speaker 1: and I'd still have to see So it was like

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Speaker 1: all these moving parts that I was managing every day

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Speaker 1: and the kind of panic that I'd feel if I

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Speaker 1: haven't pumped yet and then I know that three people

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Speaker 1: just came and one person came late. Like it was

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Speaker 1: just it was a big mental load and not a

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Speaker 1: fun one. So yeah, I mean, listening to myself, it

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Speaker 1: kind of seems like maybe I did do it for

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Speaker 1: a little longer than I maybe you should have or

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Speaker 1: could have, but it's over now and I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to enjoy the flow after glow. Yeah. Well, it's just that,

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Speaker 1: you know, breastfeeding and pumping are very different things. And

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Speaker 1: I think that you know, well, while breastfeeding itself can

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Speaker 1: be a pleasant, you know, bonding experience, that the pumping

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Speaker 1: is what for many women it becomes because they are

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Speaker 1: you know, back in the office while still breast fading,

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Speaker 1: and it's just, you know, not fun. And it is

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Speaker 1: very very different things. And so I don't know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's more about saying like that there's something to the

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Speaker 1: breast milk versus the actual feeding that you well, there's

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Speaker 1: actually more scientific studies now looking at those difference. They

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Speaker 1: used to all be lumped into one category, and now

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Speaker 1: they're finding that, like, you know, the marginal benefits the

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding does have, some of them are present in pumped milk,

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Speaker 1: but not all of them. So that's actually kind of interesting.

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Speaker 1: But you're right, it is a different thing. But the

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Speaker 1: thing is, if you don't pump, then you can't really

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Speaker 1: preustfeed when you're not at work. Or maybe you can,

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Speaker 1: but you don't know how long you're going to be

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Speaker 1: able to do that, and it's complicated. But you know what,

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Speaker 1: there's some women I had someone write to me that's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sixteen months and I'm still pumping. Well, the nice

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Speaker 1: thing I can say is I got to a point

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Speaker 1: that one year mark actually like two weeks shy of it,

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Speaker 1: where like there's no question I have no desire to

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Speaker 1: ever pump again. In fact, I would like the pumps

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Speaker 1: out of my house. I don't even ever want to

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Speaker 1: think about it. So it's nice to just have no

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Speaker 1: debate or internal ambiguity about where I feel like I

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Speaker 1: am done the end. Yeah, yeah, and maybe our guest

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Speaker 1: can talk some about this. But like if the various

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Speaker 1: accommodations you might make, for instance, it might be if

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about negotiats, you have a flexible workplace, and

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Speaker 1: it's a sort of job that some of it could

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Speaker 1: be done from home, possibly you know, coming back to work,

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Speaker 1: but working from home more days than not, for instance,

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Speaker 1: would would allow for less of the pumping and more

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Speaker 1: of the actual feeding. If you had somebody else caring

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Speaker 1: for your baby in your house while you were also

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Speaker 1: doing work like then then it's not so much the

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Speaker 1: length of the maternity leave, it's the access you have

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Speaker 1: to your baby that allows you. But then you could also,

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Speaker 1: you know, do that I with with Jaspers. I all

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Speaker 1: just we put him in daycare at four months, but

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Speaker 1: I would the daycare was you know, a quarter mile

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Speaker 1: from the house, so I just walk over and feed him.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's even some I mean, big corporate campuses

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Speaker 1: will have an on you know, in house daycare. So

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Speaker 1: think about how convenient that could be. You could like

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Speaker 1: literally like walk from your meeting, maybe go up a

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Speaker 1: couple floors and see your baby and go right back.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's a whole different story. Yeah, so there's

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Speaker 1: lots of different ways to think about that, in ways

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Speaker 1: that you can continue breastfeeding while while working as well.

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Speaker 1: But we'll we'll definitely talk about that. But you know,

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Speaker 1: so what are you what are you doing with the

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Speaker 1: freed up time? Work? Have more work? Okay, no, just

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Speaker 1: more like being able to do my work in less

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Speaker 1: of a rushed manner. I haven't felt like there's all

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Speaker 1: this free time. It's more like, oh, I'm finishing my

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Speaker 1: charts or I'm able to like spend a little bit

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Speaker 1: longer talking to this patient versus giving them nuts and

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Speaker 1: bolts that I need to and running out the door.

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Speaker 1: I think that I'm going to be able to spend

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Speaker 1: more time. Actually, I know I've already started, like on

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Speaker 1: some sort of lingering projects that we're sitting there related

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Speaker 1: to the residency, and just generally feeling more cut up

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Speaker 1: and having lunch with my colleagues sometimes. Yeah, it's been great. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you have to find different times to read, right,

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Speaker 1: because true, that was when you were reading. That's true.

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Speaker 1: But since she's sleeping somewhat more at night, I can

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Speaker 1: stay up a little later and maybe I'll just get

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Speaker 1: it in then. Yeah, well that's great. So we'll talk

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Speaker 1: to Laurie about the fun fun fact Laurie and I

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Speaker 1: were actually college classmates. Were She sent me an email

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Speaker 1: about being on this podcast a couple months ago, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, yes, of course I remember you. But

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Speaker 1: the fun thing is she was like the superstar academic

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Speaker 1: person one like every prize and our major for her thesis.

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Speaker 1: So maybe we can kid her a bit about that.

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Speaker 1: What was your major? What was your major? Woodrow Wilson

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Speaker 1: School at Princeton's a public policy so you know, wow,

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Speaker 1: very interesting. Well you both kind of pivoted a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but I say, well, her day talk has slightly more

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Speaker 1: still to do, I guess with it. Maybe, Well we'll

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Speaker 1: talk with Laurie about that. So here we'll go to

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Speaker 1: the main many interview part of this podcast. Well, we're

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Speaker 1: excited to welcome Laurie to the program, So Lauri, why

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Speaker 1: don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners. Hi,

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Speaker 1: Laurie and Sarah, thanks so much for having me on.

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Speaker 1: The conversations you have on this podcast are so important

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Speaker 1: and relevant to working parents. So thanks for everything that

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Speaker 1: you do. Oh, I got you. I just kick off

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Speaker 1: by saying I wear three main hats in life. One

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Speaker 1: is I'm a partner in the healthcare practice at a

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Speaker 1: large international law firm, and I practice medicare reimforsement law,

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Speaker 1: specifically for teaching hospitals that train residents to become doctors.

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Speaker 1: It's a very niche specialty on a sixty percent schedule

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Speaker 1: in that role. In the other forty percent of my

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Speaker 1: professional week, I run a program called Mindful Return that

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Speaker 1: helps new parents transition back to work after parental leave.

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Speaker 1: And the third hat is that I am mom to

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Speaker 1: two wonderful redheaded boys, one of whom is about to

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Speaker 1: turn eight tomorrow and the other one is turning six

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Speaker 1: in February. Very exciting. So you were going along in

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Speaker 1: your career as a lawyer, you know, building your career

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Speaker 1: in that, and then you have two children, and how

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Speaker 1: did that go? What was sort of did you find

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Speaker 1: it easy to sort of continue your work as a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: Did you immediately go down to sixty percent? I mean,

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Speaker 1: how did that sort of evolve? Yeah, So, I mean

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Speaker 1: easy would not be the word I would use to

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Speaker 1: describe it. So I was in private practic right after

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Speaker 1: law school, and I did you know, the law firm

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Speaker 1: associate thing for a couple of years, and then I

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Speaker 1: actually went in house to be doing Medicare policy work

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Speaker 1: and I was working full time at a trade association

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Speaker 1: when I had my first child, and I came back

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Speaker 1: to work and it was challenging. I think one big

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Speaker 1: challenge was that I had a child who refused to

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Speaker 1: take a bottle. And so, you know, this working mom

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Speaker 1: convinces herself that if she goes back to which her

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Speaker 1: son might actually starve to death. And so there was

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Speaker 1: this time when I had to sort of try and

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Speaker 1: figure out what the heck was wrong. It turned out

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Speaker 1: I had excess light base in my breast milk, and

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Speaker 1: so I had to both pump the milk and then

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Speaker 1: scald it in a little science experiment under my desk

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Speaker 1: every time I pumped. So the return to work was

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Speaker 1: challenging after baby number one, but we got there and

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Speaker 1: I was, you know, rolling along. And then baby number

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Speaker 1: two came about two years later, and as my husband

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Speaker 1: and I like to joke, one plus one felt like

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Speaker 1: eighty five at the time. Nobody was sleeping, one was

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Speaker 1: potty training, the other one was up because you know,

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Speaker 1: he was a newborn, and I was a disaster and

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Speaker 1: the wheels came off, and you know, I was sort

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Speaker 1: of this isolated puddle of tears on my kitchen floor

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Speaker 1: for longer than I'd like to admit. And I found that,

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Speaker 1: you know, in this trade association of five hundred and

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Speaker 1: some employees, where a lot of people had gone out

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Speaker 1: on leave and come back and it was a very

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Speaker 1: family friendly environment, tons of people were struggling with a

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Speaker 1: transition and no mom after mom would knock on my

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Speaker 1: door and shut the door and come in and be

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Speaker 1: like this is so hard, and then burst into tears

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Speaker 1: and we'd be like, this is really hard. We didn't

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Speaker 1: know what was going on. So I was at the

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Speaker 1: Trade Association for a little over six years, had both

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Speaker 1: of my sons there, and then I founded Mindful Return

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Speaker 1: while I was working full time there. And after about

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Speaker 1: a year and a half of both working full time

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Speaker 1: and starting this program, I wanted to spend a little

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Speaker 1: bit more daylight hours working on Mindful Return and then

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Speaker 1: wound up leaving the Trade Association to go back to

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Speaker 1: private practice, something that I admit surprised me. But I

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Speaker 1: transitioned to a law firm directly onto the sixty percent schedule.

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Speaker 1: I really interviewed at places and said, hey, I'm presenting

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Speaker 1: myself as a candidate on a sixty percent schedule. Take

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Speaker 1: me or leave me at that. But more, you know,

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Speaker 1: there were a number of firms that were very receptive

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Speaker 1: to the idea. Well that's fantastic. Well, especially if you

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Speaker 1: have a very particular expertise, there cannot be many focusing

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Speaker 1: on this area. So if a firm was looking to

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Speaker 1: be in this space, you know exactly you've got laur

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Speaker 1: at sixty percent or you have no I guess there

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Speaker 1: are only a small handful of us who do that.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing that I had going for me,

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Speaker 1: quite frankly, was going for me in the sense of

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Speaker 1: trying to get a reduced schedule, was I was coming

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Speaker 1: into the firm without a book of business, right, so

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Speaker 1: I had to grow clients from scratch. And you know,

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Speaker 1: when't a firm prefer to take a gamble on sixty

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Speaker 1: percent of one salary then you know, paying someone full

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Speaker 1: salary and they hope that they would be able to

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Speaker 1: come up with the client lists to fill up a

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Speaker 1: whole book of business. Right, So when sometimes the firm

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Speaker 1: was taking less of a risk on me by coming

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Speaker 1: in at sixty percent as well, good good way to

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Speaker 1: look at it, I guess. So with with mindful return,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love that you're feeling overwhelmed and so

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Speaker 1: you start another organization. But what gap in the market

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Speaker 1: were you were you looking to solve with with this

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Speaker 1: side hustle? Yeah, so the full time job, the one

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Speaker 1: year old and three year old, it's not enough, right,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, Well I was really feeling isolated, you know,

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Speaker 1: after that second baby, and I was looking around and saying,

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Speaker 1: why are there courses on everything baby related. I can

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Speaker 1: take a class on how to repair a birthplan or

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Speaker 1: pure baby food, or massage my baby, or all the

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Speaker 1: lactation supports are out there, But where's the class that

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Speaker 1: I can go take that tells me how to transition

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Speaker 1: back to work in a way that doesn't make me

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Speaker 1: feel like I've lost my mind or have given up

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Speaker 1: on my career aspirations. And I'm sitting here on the

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Speaker 1: kitchen and floor. So I'm bemoaning the state, saying there

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Speaker 1: should be something out there. And my husband, who's a

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Speaker 1: career coach and an entrepreneur, looks at me and is like,

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Speaker 1: what are you going to do about it? And so

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Speaker 1: I sort of took that as a challenge, and this

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Speaker 1: risk adverse lawyer decided to try and fill that gap

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Speaker 1: because I didn't. I really created what I wish had

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Speaker 1: been out there to support me when I went back.

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Speaker 1: And so, what exactly does Mindful Return do? Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what I would toe the support their are their live counselors.

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Speaker 1: Is it more like you know, will you tell us? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So it's an online, four week cohort based program, meaning

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Speaker 1: you're in the group with other people who are going

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Speaker 1: through the return at the same time you are. And

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Speaker 1: really it's both a coarse curriculum with content about four

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Speaker 1: different themes, a mindful mindset for returning to work, the

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Speaker 1: logistics of return, how to be a leader in the

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Speaker 1: space of return, and building community. So those are the

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Speaker 1: four themes, and you work through lessons on these themes

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Speaker 1: and you're in this community with all these other moms.

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Speaker 1: So you read a lesson and then there's a discussion

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Speaker 1: board and everybody gets to interact with each other on

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Speaker 1: the discussion board. You don't have to be anywhere at

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Speaker 1: any given time of day or night, because I couldn't

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Speaker 1: be anywhere at any given time of day or night. Well,

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Speaker 1: I was a young, new mom, and so really it's

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Speaker 1: an opportunity for people to both learn and connect with

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Speaker 1: each other. There's a version for moms, there's a version

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Speaker 1: for dads, and starting January twenty nineteen, there's a new

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Speaker 1: version for moms of special needs babies as well. Oh

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Speaker 1: that's so cool, thank you. Yeah, we really found that

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Speaker 1: there was a special need out there for a course

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Speaker 1: that wasn't tailored just to mom, like, well that want

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Speaker 1: addressed like nick you parents, and absolutely nick you and

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Speaker 1: extra exactly babies who are medically fragile, folks with autism

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Speaker 1: down syndrome, so that one's really geared toward babies and toddlers,

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Speaker 1: or rather the moms of babies and toddlers. Got it wonderful. Well,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk some practicalities because you've got these

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Speaker 1: people going through a four week program and they're learning

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Speaker 1: tips and strategies and things to think about. So what

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Speaker 1: are let's really talk some practicality here there, and what

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Speaker 1: are some big mistakes people make as they approach their

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Speaker 1: return to work. I mean, what advice would you give

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Speaker 1: new mom, Laurie of practical things to try. I made

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Speaker 1: a ton of mistakes, as I'm sure we all do,

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Speaker 1: and learn from them. I'd say one of the number

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Speaker 1: one mistakes I made was when I went back to

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Speaker 1: work the first time, trying to catch up on absolutely

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Speaker 1: every single email and thing that I had missed while

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Speaker 1: I was out. And I think I tried to read

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Speaker 1: all the Federal Register notices that came out and tried

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Speaker 1: to read the thousands of emails, and I found that,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe two months back, I was still feeling

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Speaker 1: lost and behind, and so with a second return, I

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Speaker 1: corrected that mistake by setting up meetings with my key

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Speaker 1: stakeholders for the first couple of weeks back and asking

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Speaker 1: them two questions, One would I miss too, how can

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Speaker 1: I help? And wow? Was that a lot less stressful?

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Speaker 1: So within two weeks, you know, I was done. I

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Speaker 1: was caught up. I didn't read everything. And if there

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Speaker 1: was something that came up that related to the period

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Speaker 1: when I was gone and I didn't have the answers,

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Speaker 1: I have a whole team, I was like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: whoever covered that while I was out, they can answer

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Speaker 1: your question. So I think it was just a lot

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Speaker 1: more forward looking of a strategy. Another mistake that I

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Speaker 1: definitely made was feeling like I had to be the

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Speaker 1: one to do everything. I'm sure this is really common,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I felt like I had to be

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Speaker 1: the one to cook the cast role that was going

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Speaker 1: to last the three days, and to come up with

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Speaker 1: a meal plan and to clean the house and bah

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And you know, I think I would

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Speaker 1: have gotten more help sooner had I thought through this

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Speaker 1: better the first time. Yes, Yeah, I think sometimes people

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Speaker 1: actually need a course to sort of give them permission

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Speaker 1: to get that help, whether that's from their partner or

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Speaker 1: outside help. So that's great. Yeah, And I'd say like

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest supports in those first couple of

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Speaker 1: years was parents' helpers. Right, So the thirteen, maybe twelve eleven,

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Speaker 1: ten eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen year old neighbors who would

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Speaker 1: come over and come to the house for a couple

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Speaker 1: of hours on the weekends while we were there, so

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Speaker 1: that we could get stuff done, still be around, play

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Speaker 1: with the kids, not feel like we were leaving, but

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Speaker 1: still managed to squeeze more out of our weekend that way.

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Speaker 1: There's a mistake that I've seen in the Billable our world,

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Speaker 1: or I don't know if it's a mistake so much

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Speaker 1: as something you can do to prepare yourself to return.

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Speaker 1: In the Billblour world, you have to have work, to

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Speaker 1: be busy to create value, right, And so one way

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Speaker 1: that I've seen people sort of struggle when they come

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Speaker 1: back is to not line up projects that they can

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Speaker 1: dig into when they return. And of course it's personal

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Speaker 1: preference how quickly you want to ramp back up, but

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Speaker 1: to the extent you want to be busy when you

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Speaker 1: come back, it can really be helpful to reach out

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Speaker 1: to some of your colleagues a few weeks before the

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Speaker 1: end of leave and remind them that you're coming back,

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Speaker 1: and ask what projects you can start to dig in

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Speaker 1: on whenever you do return, so that you can start

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Speaker 1: to be buildable from the time you come back. I've

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Speaker 1: also talked to some moms who didn't line up work

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Speaker 1: or for whatever reason, were sitting at their office with

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Speaker 1: not a whole lot going on those first few weeks,

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Speaker 1: and they found that more infuriating because they could have

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Speaker 1: been with their baby. Right They're like, I'm sitting here

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Speaker 1: at my dad's not doing anything. I'd prefer to actually

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Speaker 1: be productive. So I think, you know, having that communication

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Speaker 1: plan is really is really helpful. I think another mistake

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Speaker 1: that I made, and I see a lot of the

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Speaker 1: moms in my course make again if it's a mental

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Speaker 1: If it's a mistake so much as sort of a

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Speaker 1: a mental bias. But we assume that our kids are

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Speaker 1: somehow going to forget us or think that we're somehow

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Speaker 1: less of a parent because we're trying to go back

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Speaker 1: to work. And the one thing that I say to

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Speaker 1: the moms and the course is there's no one like mommy.

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Speaker 1: There's never going to be anyone like, Mommy, that kid

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Speaker 1: is going to run screaming into your arms at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, and that smile is going to

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Speaker 1: make you so happy. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: the moms think that somehow, by being gone for however

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Speaker 1: many hours during the day, that their kid just is

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Speaker 1: going to forget them, And I think that's a serious

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Speaker 1: error and when we need to work on correcting just

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Speaker 1: for our own sanity, that's awesome. Yeah. So, I personally

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Speaker 1: found by far the most challenging part of my return

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Speaker 1: to work related to the pumping. Like if that wasn't

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Speaker 1: any I don't even think I'd have any issue. But

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Speaker 1: that was like a huge painful experience for me for

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Speaker 1: nine months, and somehow I did it anyway. So I

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Speaker 1: would love to hear your thoughts on that, the choice

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Speaker 1: to do it versus not any tips any I don't know.

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Speaker 1: You now have a lot of experience talking to many

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Speaker 1: women about this, I'm sure, so i'd love to hear

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Speaker 1: your insights. Yeah, so the pumping thing, I did it

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Speaker 1: until each sun was about thirteen months old, so there

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Speaker 1: were I don't know, one time I sat down and

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Speaker 1: calculated like a thousand pump sessions or something so there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of pumping going on, and planes strains

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Speaker 1: automobile is my desk. I think one thing that was

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Speaker 1: the most helpful to me was to block my pump

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Speaker 1: times on the calendar for a full year in advance.

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Speaker 1: And I know that's not always possible, depending on where,

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Speaker 1: what type of work here in, et cetera. But it

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Speaker 1: was helpful to me during my leave to block those

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Speaker 1: times so that no one else would steal them from me,

431
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 1: because it's much easier to block it out than to

432
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 1: try to steal it back from someone later. It helped

433
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 1: me to realize that each child was really different as well.

434
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: Like with my first child, I had to pump three

435
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 1: times a day. I pumped like nine thirty to ten,

436
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 1: twelve thirty to one, three thirty four or something like

437
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: that to keep my supply up, and I was sort

438
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 1: of eking out every ounce. And I know stress reduces

439
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 1: your supply and that probably contributed to it. But with

440
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 1: maybe number two WHOA, I did not really need a

441
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 1: third session. I was producing milk like nobody's business and

442
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 1: I had two plump sessions during the day, one in

443
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: the morning, one the afternoon. But I didn't take that

444
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 1: third session off my calendar and I sort of kept

445
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 1: that time for me, so that was nice. I had

446
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: the whole pump and scald thing going on, so I

447
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: really did need the whole half an hour. That sounds terrible,

448
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was the candy thermometer that works. And

449
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: I definitely had a pump at home and one at

450
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: my office so I didn't have to carry parts around.

451
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: I think one thing that I wished I had known

452
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: was the concept and I know that there's debate about this,

453
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 1: but the concept that you can take your pump parts

454
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: and just stick them the frosty and not so nothing

455
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: bad ever happened, Yes, exactly so I've heard. So I

456
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: wish I had known and to be able to delegate

457
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 1: and outsource all the parts of pumping, but aren't the

458
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 1: actual pumping right, So engage a partner if possible, and

459
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: washing pump parts and storing milk and preparing bottles and

460
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. I know that this is

461
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: a benefit that's available at a lot of places now

462
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: that I didn't have access to. But milk Stork is

463
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 1: quite popular for shipping milk when you're on work travel

464
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: and a lot of employers will pick up the cost

465
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 1: of that. They apparently deliver a refrigerated box to your

466
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: hotel room and you can pump and then just have

467
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: the milk shipped home for the next day. That's something

468
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 1: that you know, I know exists now that I wish

469
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: I had known about back then. So cool for people

470
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: who travel. But what about the weather pump question, like

471
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: we in the intro to the weather Yeah, to this podcast.

472
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of going back and forth like

473
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 1: was I insane? I mean, it's like, are we torturing

474
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: ourselves too much? I don't know. Yes, yes, I think

475
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 1: I definitely went sort of certifiably insane over pumping. And

476
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know it's a lot of pressures coming

477
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: from society, medical establishment. I didn't supplement either time, and

478
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: I think the first time around that had a huge

479
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: impact on my mood, and had I to do it

480
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 1: over again, I think I probably would have said, great,

481
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: so let's make some formula in here and take a

482
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: little bit of stress off of me. But I didn't

483
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: do that. For whatever reason. It sort of was a

484
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: given that if I could, if I could nurse my

485
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: baby and lactatee, then I was going to pump, and

486
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: I sort of set that up pretty rigidly for myself

487
00:24:51,880 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: and stuck to it for better or worse. Yeah, I

488
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: was gonna say, the two of you, maybe you could

489
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: talk about that. I don't know, I think people get

490
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: different messages we have with that. Like I sort of

491
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: didn't feel that way. I mean, maybe it's also that

492
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: I was in my house anyway, so I wasn't mostly

493
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: dealing with the pump. I did pump some, but it

494
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: was mostly just to keep up supply and like have

495
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: extra bottles so I could, you know, have it for so,

496
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: you know, because I'm still there, I'm still seeing the

497
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: baby all the time. So I guess I didn't feel

498
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: that same thing like the milk was doing it, so

499
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: I just dumped it. Like if I traveled, i'd pump

500
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: and dump, like the idea of shipping it back. I

501
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: guess I just don't see that the milk itself is

502
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: somehow the like pumping when I was traveling was about

503
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: just keeping this with you, as opposed to I've done

504
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: that the baby. The baby desperately means that milk. You know.

505
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: It's like, well, there's stuff in the freezer, there's formula

506
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: which I could and for whatever reason, gott it in

507
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: my head that I just had to do those and

508
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: that was anyway. And I hope, I hope that part

509
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: of your mindful Return training is maybe helping women, because

510
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,239
Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes I just it's true. I think

511
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: there needs to be more support on making us realize

512
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: that there are choices and there doesn't have to be guilt. Absolutely. Yeah.

513
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: One day of the Mindful Return courses labeled something like

514
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: nurturing your baby, and then there's part of the lesson

515
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: about pumping if you're doing that, And then there's part

516
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: of the lesson about, yes, you're nurturing your baby even

517
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: if you're not pumping. Come on, people, and you know

518
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: the mantra about fed is best and like, let's let's

519
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: take the stress off of ourselves here. I also, I

520
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: think I learned a lot about sort of how the

521
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: whole milk production thing works as I went along over

522
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: time too, Like for some reason, I was trying to

523
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: get in extra sessions and like try to pump for

524
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: that freezer supply at night, like at the end of

525
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: the day after the babies went to bed. With my

526
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: first child and then the second baby, I'm like, oh, right,

527
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: bigger supply in morning, should pump extra in mourning? And

528
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: then I didn't even pump. I just fed baby on

529
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: one side, see the other one into a bottle on

530
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: the other while he was eating. And you know, there

531
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: I was, I had my extra model of milk or whatever.

532
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: So that's amazing. But it's so funny because like also,

533
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: I think it's such an like there's so many individual

534
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: differences physiologically about how it works for different people, like

535
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: what you just said, like that would have never worked

536
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: for me, like I, I can't even imagine like it,

537
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: nothing would have come out like I. But but then

538
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: it's just so easy to be like, well obviously, you know,

539
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: so I just the individuality needs to be emphasized. And yes,

540
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: and what you talked about that permissiveness of like you

541
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: can nurture your baby in many different ways exactly there's

542
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: no one, yeah, and that there can be gradations in

543
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: this too, like I I believe, I mean, you're still

544
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 1: breastfeeding your baby. If you're breastfeeding in the morning at night,

545
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: maybe you know you're pumping once a day during the

546
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: work you're not pumping all that you would need to

547
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 1: supply the baby, but you're pumping some like I mean

548
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: that's that can be fine too, Like, I mean, you know,

549
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: a baby who is getting one formula bottle and for

550
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: nursing sessions a day is still breastfed baby, you know,

551
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: like it's and and there's no you don't get a medal.

552
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean maybe somebody else is in

553
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: some sort of online cragging forum where you can talk

554
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: about you know, but I would personally stay away from

555
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: that forum if I were you. I'm just like in general,

556
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: so there's lots of gradations in this, and you can

557
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: you can nurse even if you're not nursing exclusively. You can,

558
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: you know, introduce bottles at some point if it helps.

559
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: You know that there's lots of ways to think about this,

560
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: and that can make life a lot less stressful as well.

561
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: And for the record, sixty six percent of my baby's

562
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: got multiple yes. Yeah, great, and everyone's okay, everyone is

563
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: exactly the same. I might, yeah, so anyway away from pumping.

564
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: You had another question, Laura, I think about, like what

565
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: about longer maternity leaves? How Yeah, I wondered if anything

566
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 1: changed based in your advice based on sort of how

567
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: how long the person has been out for I mean,

568
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: I would assume the majority are right around that kind

569
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: of like twelve week returning that that seems to be

570
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: pretty US standard. But then there's within i know, the

571
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: legal world, we're certainly seeing a number of firms sort

572
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: of expanding that to more like in the six month range,

573
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: you know, and some tech companies as well. So I

574
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: wondered if there are differences for different links of time

575
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: that you've been out, or if somebody maybe took a

576
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: year off, if there's other things that you have her

577
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: thinking about. Yeah, that's a great question. And people take

578
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: the Mind for Return program from all over the world too,

579
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: So I've had, you know, plenty of people from Australia,

580
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: in UK, where it's much in Canada where it's really

581
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: standard to take a much longer period of time off.

582
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: And I think what surprised me most, or what has

583
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: surprised me most over the couple of years of teaching

584
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: those courses universality of the worries, Like you know, it

585
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: may very well be that your kid can walk and

586
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: might not need a bottle anymore, but you're still worried

587
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: about leaving your child with someone you don't necessarily know,

588
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: even though you've edted them and you're worried about reintegrating

589
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: into some of your projects. And there was a really

590
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: interesting Harvard Business Review article about that longer leave a

591
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: couple I think it's in September, and how you know,

592
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: a longer leave can be more challenging from a career

593
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: perspective to come back from, right because you've been gone

594
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: longer and the world, the work world might have changed

595
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: a little bit more my course itself. It really doesn't

596
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: vary depending on your length of leave, and I think,

597
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: as I said, the concerns seemed to be universal. But

598
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: one thing that the HBr article mentioned as being a

599
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: really helpful tool for employers to use for the longer

600
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: leaves is some sort of a keep in touch program

601
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: where you know, if you're going to be out for

602
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: a year or eighteen months, even it makes sense to

603
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: keep your employees engaged on some level and make sure

604
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: that they're in the loop generally speaking as to what's

605
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: going on, even if they're not monitoring things day to day.

606
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: Eighteen months. Wow, Partly I couldn't imagine. And I think

607
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: that that's also something that it could be. It's not

608
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: a bad thing to want to get back to work,

609
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: absolutely there's well, if I took eighteen months between my

610
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: two first kids, I think I would have been at

611
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: work for like three more months before, Like, well, that

612
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: totally happens. I mean somebody, you know, the places with

613
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: longer leaves, like you could be pregnant with your next

614
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: kid when you're coming back from your first maternity event.

615
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: But there's no way, I mean, your career cannot There

616
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: are challenges, there are limits to what you can do,

617
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: and you will lose your contacts, you will lose your clients,

618
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 1: you will lose some of your skills, and you may

619
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: decide that's worth it. Which you know, people in places

620
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: of shorter leaves, if they take time out of the workforce,

621
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: like a couple years, they're going to they acknowledge that, yeah,

622
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: you're going to go away without some of those things

623
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: that may be totally worth it to you. But you can't,

624
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, assume everything will be the same coming back

625
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: from from that long of a timeout. And that's fine. Yeah,

626
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: And it's also fine. It doesn't make you a bad

627
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: mother to want to get back. I was just going

628
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: to say, I hear a lot of guilt around the

629
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: like I must be awful because I really want to

630
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: be back in my office. No, you're not awful. You're

631
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: a normal human being who has aspirations to do things

632
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: other than hang out with your baby. And that's wonderful too.

633
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: I think I took twenty weeks with my first child,

634
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: and then I took sixteen with my second, because I

635
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: remembered that around the sixteen week mark, I was like, Okay,

636
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: that's good, I have done. I'm ready to be back

637
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: at this. Yeah. No, And certainly, if you enjoy your work,

638
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: you're not going to not enjoy your work after Like,

639
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: we don't have to pit work and motherhood against each other.

640
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: Like your a mother who also enjoys her work. That's great, Yes,

641
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: you can do both. So, and we also have plenty

642
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: of our listeners in HR and management and so I'm curious,

643
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: as you've been studying various different companies, what you've seen

644
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: is some of the corporate best practices. I mean, what

645
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: would you like to see companies do to ease the

646
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 1: transition back into work for people and why they might

647
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: wish to do those things well, I think believing in

648
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: working parents for the long haul makes those working parents

649
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: the most devoted, efficient, and amazing problem solving employees you

650
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: could possibly have. And so I'm a big advocate for

651
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: reminding everyone that first of all, you didn't lose any

652
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: skills by becoming a parent o contrere, You've gained a

653
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: ton of skills that are in fact useful in your workplace.

654
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: And so to the extent employers can really acknowledge the

655
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: new parent employees and say you know, look, I'm investing

656
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: in you for your career. That's going to make the

657
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: new parent employees all the more devoted and wanting to

658
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: come back. So really investing in the new parent employees

659
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: is a retention tool. A couple of things that I

660
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: would love to see, and I guess one shout out

661
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: I want to do is for the Diversity of Flexibility Alliance,

662
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: which is a great I think tank and benchmarking organization

663
00:33:54,680 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: that has really helped me know about and about breadth

664
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: and best practices and then encourage my firm to adopt them.

665
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: For example, so one thing is really too degender and

666
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: deparent your flexibility policies and practices so that it's not

667
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: stigmatizing for parents to have that sort of flexibility or

668
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: whatever the flexibility is that you offer, so to really

669
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: make it acceptable for people to have alternative schedules and

670
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: reduced hours and remote work options and things like that.

671
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: And it's twofold benefit because not only does it reduce stigma,

672
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: but other people, you know, it's it's they're entitled of

673
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: flexibility too, maybe as other relative that needs help or

674
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: something else. So I think that's great exactly. Yeah, And

675
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: along those lines in terms of degendering, degendering parentally, and

676
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: that includes eliminating the primary caregiver distinction that you know,

677
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: I can go on a ranch about, but you know,

678
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: basically the pitch to my firm when I was really

679
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: trying to work to get rid of the the idea

680
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: that the primary caregiver quote unquote should have a longer

681
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: leave them than non primary is. And how exactly are

682
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: you going to enforce that, right? Are you counting the

683
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: number of diapers one person changes versus the other? I

684
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: think just setting up a policy that way implies that

685
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: there should be or there has to be one person

686
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: who's primary. I mean, in my household, there's at a

687
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: primary like we're all on whenever we're on, and so

688
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: you know, I think there is a trend now to

689
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: try to get rid of that distinction where possible. I'm

690
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: also a huge advocate of encouraging employers to support working

691
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: parent affinity groups. I'm sort of a serial launcher and

692
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: instigator of these, both at the you know, two last

693
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: places that I worked, and also the alums of my

694
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: course often go on to say, Hey, we need one

695
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: of these at our office as well. And I think

696
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: it helps parents to you know, connect with one another,

697
00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: to even network and build business relationships among the parents.

698
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: I think gives tell me tell me more about like that.

699
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: I don't think we have that where I work, so

700
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: I'm curious, Like, give me an example. Yeah, it's a

701
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: trend association where I used to work. I started. We

702
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: called it the Returning to Work Community, and it was

703
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: really like a group of new parents. It turned out

704
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: in that instance to really just be moms, and we

705
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: got together once a month for a brown bag lunch

706
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: in the office. And when I came over to the

707
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: law firm, I really I wanted one here, but I

708
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: didn't want it to just be moms. I wanted it

709
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: to be all parents, and so I ended up co

710
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: launching the Parent Professional Network at our firm with a

711
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: dad who's a partner in the new York office of

712
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: our firm, and we launched about a year and a

713
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: half ago, and we have monthly local brown bag offices

714
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: in our lunches, and then we have quarterly national calls

715
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: where we pick a topic that interests everybody. We might

716
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: bring in a speaker, we might you know, just have

717
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: a roundtable ourselves. And it's just a way for the

718
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: parents to connect with one another. The law firms often

719
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: have these professional network structures already, So we already had

720
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: the Black Professional Network, the LGBT Professional Network, and so

721
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: I wanted to slot the parent one in to the

722
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: same format that already existed. And so we found a

723
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: way to have the naming convention be the same as

724
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: the other groups for example. And it's been I think

725
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,439
Speaker 1: we have over one hundred members in our firms group

726
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: at this point. It's just been a really great way

727
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: to bounce ideas off of each other and have an

728
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 1: open door, open line of communication with HR as well. Cool.

729
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll have to try to copy you at my organization.

730
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: There you go, absolutely, And then I mean supporting new parents.

731
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I didn't put a pitch

732
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: in for mindful Return. There are forty three employers that

733
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: now offer it as a parental leaf benefit to help

734
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,919
Speaker 1: their employees deal with that transition back. Some places offer

735
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 1: one on one coaching as well. Companies offer Milk Store.

736
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: I can't say enough about backup care benefits. Know if

737
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: either of you has had experience, Laura, I imagine not

738
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: you perhaps working for yourself, but benefits are limited. But yeah,

739
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: you know, I have twenty days of backup care benefits

740
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 1: am I firm without any co pay, which is sort

741
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: of extraordinary. I know a lot of other places have

742
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 1: a fair number of days, maybe with a twenty dollars

743
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: or thirty dollars copay. And we have an option of

744
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: two things. One either taking our child to one of

745
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: the centers. Ours happens to be Bright Horizon backup Care,

746
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: so we can take our child to a Bright Horizon center,

747
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: or we can have somebody come to our house. And

748
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: Bright Horizons just organizes it through the local nanny agencies

749
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: to have someone come to your house whenever you need

750
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: the backup assistance. And so I was recently talking to

751
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: a West Coast law firm that decided to offer backup

752
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: care benefits, and they did the calculation and said, we're

753
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: comparing the cost of paying a recruiter, if you know,

754
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,760
Speaker 1: to recruit a new hire with the backup care benefit.

755
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 1: And so we're going to choose the backup care benefit

756
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: because it means that we're going to be able to

757
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: retain that person and you know, have them actually be

758
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: productive on days when they might otherwise need to be

759
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: out because school is closed or daycare is closed, or

760
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: their child gets sick. So I think there's definitely a

761
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: business case for that sort of benefit as well of

762
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: paid backup care benefits. Literally blows my mind. But wow,

763
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: that's so fascinating to know that such a thing would exist.

764
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: And it took I mean, it's also like a marketing thing,

765
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: like you have to tell your employees that it's there.

766
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: I think it took about eighteen months of my working

767
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 1: at this part until I knew that we had that benefit.

768
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: But once I knew, I started using it right away

769
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: and now I try to spread the word all all

770
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: my fellow colleagues. That's so cool. Thank you. Well. We

771
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: always like to hear a day in the life of

772
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: our guests, So you know, what, what does a day

773
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: in the life of LORI look like? Now, I don't know,

774
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: like every day is completely different. So generally speaking, Monday

775
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: through Thursday ish, I work at the firm. Fridays I

776
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: try to do mine for return, but my life is

777
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: sort of an interwoven tapestry of all of the aspects

778
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: of my life. Really, but let's see typical day. I'll

779
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: maybe do Yesterday, so I got up at six. I

780
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: do about fifteen or twenty minutes of writing in this

781
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: great book called the Five Minute Journal, which literally is

782
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: what it says that it is, because I have five

783
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: minutes for that. And then I do yoga and a

784
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: little bit of meditation, and then I hear mommy coming

785
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: from one of my son's rooms, and we get rolling

786
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: and my husband puts breakfast together while I shower, and

787
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 1: then we manage to get out the door somewhere around

788
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: eight o'clock. My husband and I both take our kids

789
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: to school, and then I head to the Metro. Yesterday

790
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 1: we had the holiday party and my youngest son's kindergarten

791
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: class room, so we spent a little bit of time

792
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 1: doing that. Then I take the Metro down to my office,

793
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: and I really treasure that commute time one because like

794
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: I get a little bit of outdoor walking and I

795
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 1: usually listen to a podcast or read a book on

796
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 1: the metro and then I get to my office around

797
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: nine fifteen nine thirty, and then you know, health hospitals

798
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: and health systems get their proper Medicare reimbursements for the day,

799
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: you know, corresponding with clients, maybe taking a mind for

800
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: return call if I need to, and then packing it

801
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: in around four fifth or forty five, and meeting up

802
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: with my husband at a metro stop close to our kids' school,

803
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: picking up our kids from aftercare by around five fifteen

804
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: to five thirty, making it home around five forty five

805
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: six o'clock. Then we do dinner, bath in bed. We

806
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: used to use blue apron, now use plated for at

807
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 1: least a couple of the meals of our week, and

808
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 1: we do all the chopping on the weekends and then

809
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: actually cook the meals during the week. Fathtime is seven o'clock,

810
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: bedtime is eight o'clock, and we sort of switch off

811
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: who puts Foo to bed and then everyone's asleep god

812
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,720
Speaker 1: willing by eight thirty eight forty five. Presuming that nothing

813
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: else went awry or someone took a nap during the

814
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: day that they shouldn't have whatever, and then usually, you know,

815
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: my husband and I connect for a little bit and

816
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: then nine thirty to ten thirty, I'll be nine to

817
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: ten thirty. Nine thirty to ten thirty, I'll be back online,

818
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: often splitting my split shift between Mind four Return and Dentan's,

819
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: my law firm. And uh, then eleven o'clock is lights

820
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: out for me, and then we do it all over again.

821
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: That's awesome. You sound like an ad for d like

822
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: walking to the Metro with your husband's situation. Yeah, it's uh,

823
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: we sort of travel as pack. We've managed to have

824
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: a one car family this long, which I suspect will

825
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 1: and at some point because our kids are starting to

826
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: go off in separate directions. But I do like how

827
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: much the four of us are able to do together.

828
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: That's so cool. That's really cool. Well, Laurie, we always

829
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: do the our Love of the Week when we have

830
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: our guests. So something that's really making you excited this week?

831
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: Sarah and I can go first so that we you know,

832
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 1: you don't have to be right on the spot. So, Sarah,

833
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: what do you have this week? I have a concept

834
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: which I believe was in your book, Laura. It's vacation anticipation.

835
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: So I'm in the middle of planning our vacation that's

836
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: coming next week. And also we just I just paid

837
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 1: for our Disney cruise, which means we get to like

838
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: book all of our stuff. And so I mean I

839
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: recognize I'm probably like, like half of the joy of

840
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: the vacations is in the anticipation, but you know what,

841
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: why not, I might as well just roll in it.

842
00:43:54,239 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: It's great. Yeah, I like anticipation. It's always good. So

843
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 1: my love of the week is Forever stamps, which you know,

844
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: young enough people who listen to this are like, well,

845
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 1: what do you mean, Like, aren't all the stamps for

846
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: so back in the day you used to whenever they

847
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: had a rate change in the postal Service, you had

848
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: to buy like all these two cent stamps to then

849
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: supplement your you know, twenty five cent that had just

850
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: been raised to twenty seven cents, so then you to

851
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: keep track of that. You're making me feel so old

852
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: that you have to explain that, but go I had

853
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: to explain that to our to our younger listeners. But

854
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: but you know, whatever, it was that at some point

855
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: in there, the Postal Service decided to switch it to that,

856
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, Once you sell a stamp, it's good forever,

857
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: whatever the rate changes. So we actually I think the

858
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: rate is going up. In January, we bought a bunch

859
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: of stamps just now and partly for sending out. We

860
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: did it before the holidays to send out holiday cards,

861
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 1: but we wound up with a bunch of extras because

862
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: there was miscommunication about who was buying the stamps. But

863
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: it's great because it's like a hedge. Again. It was

864
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: a write increase, so I'm hedging with stamps now. It's

865
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: funny though now I don't know what they actually cost

866
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: anymore versus back in the day you remembered because it

867
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 1: was like on the stamp, it was on the stand.

868
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: That's true. Well, that that probably does. It was a

869
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 1: win for everybody. It's like win for people who didn't

870
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: have to keep sent you know, the two cent stamps going,

871
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 1: but then also for the post office because there's so

872
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: much apparently. Yeah, so funny. I love that, your love.

873
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you what a stamp costs today. Okay,

874
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: So I have two quick ones, if that's all right.

875
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: One is, my boys have really been in that sibling

876
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: rivalry thing lately, and we recently discovered because one I

877
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: got for his birthday the concept of cooperative games where

878
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 1: there isn't a winner and loser, but rather everyone plays

879
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: together to try to accomplish a common goal. And you know,

880
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: my son got this great game called five Minute Dragon,

881
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: which I am totally into because we're all trying to

882
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: defeat the monsters together and it really reduces the whole

883
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: in fighting thing. And my second one is that situation

884
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: of you know, it's winter time, the kids are always, always,

885
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: always losing their gloves everywhere and leaving them all over

886
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: the place and we can't find them. So I bought

887
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: one of those twelve pair so twenty four identical Nick

888
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: Gloves packs of gloves, and now we just have them

889
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: all over the house. Wherever you need a glove, you're

890
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,439
Speaker 1: gonna find a glove and it's gonna match because they're

891
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: all the same. So those are my two make life

892
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: for you easier. I love plugs. I love the idea

893
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: of over buying stuff you use all the time. It's

894
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: just like, I mean, you couldn't do that with like

895
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: the fancy like north faced gloves that you'd be I mean,

896
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: unless you're like in dough and which is God bush you,

897
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: but like for the little the little cheapo gloves. Yes,

898
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: I got twenty four black knit gloves from nineteen ninety

899
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: nine on Amazon, and now we've got some upstairs and

900
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: some downstairs. And it's like we never have to stop

901
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: to run out the door and be like, oh I

902
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: can't leave and they don't have my gloves. No here

903
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: here are Y's beautiful. I love that, although that probably

904
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: made stare I just go crazy, just like I don't

905
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 1: want gloves all over my house. I do want pacifiers, pasifier,

906
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 1: but gloves, especially down here, that'd be silly. Yes, all right, Well, Laurie,

907
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on. Best in both worlds.

908
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: We really appreciate you making the time to be here. Well,

909
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure

910
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: to talk with you both. And thanks for continuing this

911
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: conversation for all working parents. Oh, thank you. Well, that

912
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: was a great interview. We have a great question for us,

913
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: submitted I believe via an email and it was on

914
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: Laura's birthday, so it begins Happy birthday, Laura. We love

915
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: the podcast. I have a question I'd like you to answer.

916
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: I'm a mom of three girls. They're all five and under.

917
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: And I'm an attorney. I'd love to hear about tricks

918
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: you've discovered making life work with many kids. I can't

919
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: decide if it works better, for example, to take all

920
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: the kids to the doctor on the same day, reducing

921
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: drive time but guaranteeing chaos, or if it makes more

922
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: sense to schedule their appointments separately. The doctor and I

923
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: can focus on each one, but have to make three

924
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: separate trips. I know better than to take them all

925
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: to the grocery store. But outside of family events, what

926
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: other areas of life does it make sense to do

927
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: things with them in numbers versus one on one. Thank

928
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: you so much. Ah, Yes, the batching it's a good one.

929
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: I mean, because when you do have multiple kids, I mean,

930
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: there are certain economies of scale. And you know, I

931
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: was thinking about this every night so that I'm, for instance,

932
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: plating dinner for the kids. Like if I'm doing this

933
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: on the weekend or in the morning with breakfast, I

934
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: will like put out four plates and then cut up

935
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: bananas on all four plates and then cut up you know,

936
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: Karen sticks on all four plates and then put a

937
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: little bit of this thing on. It's You're just batching

938
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: all kinds of things. It's a bit like being a

939
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: short order cook. You know, the shoes are all in

940
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: one place and everyone it's like you're checking off shoes, coat, backpack. Okay,

941
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: all three have that out the door to the batching

942
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: has a lot going for it. We do some of

943
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: this with doctor appointments, not all four together by any means,

944
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 1: but they're spread out enough that you just wouldn't do it.

945
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: But I take you know, last year, I took the

946
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: two big boys together, right like that made a lot

947
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: of sense to do, and they in fact sat out

948
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: in the hallway during each other's exams. So that was

949
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: a way that our doctor dealt with this. We've often

950
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: taken the two littler kids together, so the seven year

951
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,399
Speaker 1: old and three year old. My husband took them last year,

952
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: and our nanny went as well, because I think if

953
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: you're taking smaller kids at the same time, you would

954
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 1: definitely want to have another adult presence. So, for instance,

955
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 1: this woman who's got five girl or three girls, say

956
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 1: five girls under the age of three, that would be

957
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: a little bit more chaotic than three girls under the

958
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: age of five, but she could do all the appointments

959
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: at the same time of her office would let her

960
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: do that, but have another adult with her, so either

961
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: her partner or nanny or another relative, and so that

962
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: way she or the other or her partner, the person

963
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: was choosing to do it could be with the one

964
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: child who the doctor was focusing on, and then the

965
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: other parent or adult could take the other two kids

966
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: and you switch off that way, So that way you

967
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: reduce the driving time but also not have as much

968
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: of the chaos. So that's kind of how we've done.

969
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 1: I think that's going to change as the daughter gets

970
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: a little bit older, because obviously she's not going to

971
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: be one there with her her little brother for things

972
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: like this. My husband will take all of them to

973
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: the dentist at the same time. If he just takes

974
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: the three big kids, it would be just him and

975
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: the three kids. And you know, they have a couple

976
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: dental high genis working at the place, so they can

977
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: either do two at a time or sometimes all four

978
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: at a time. When he starts bringing our little guy,

979
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: I think our nanny will go with him, probably for that. Wait,

980
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 1: so your husband goes to the same dentists that your kids,

981
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,320
Speaker 1: it's like a family dentist. It's a family dunist. Wow, oh, definitely,

982
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: that's very dentists. And then there's adult dentists combine. I

983
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: feel like that is needlessly one dentist. We all have teeth.

984
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: Probably the dentist has seen both baby teeth and adult

985
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: teeth and could deal with both. So I don't know.

986
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: Our pediatric dentist is so good with kids that my

987
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: Cameron will ask every day, like leading up to it

988
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: is today, the appointment is today? That's awesome. I know. Well,

989
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: our dentist is a mom who also has kids at

990
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: the same middle school, for instance, so she's she's said

991
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: with kids just by nature of like who she is,

992
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: but then she's fine with adults too. I mean she's

993
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 1: the one who when I've had had my broken tooth,

994
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: when went in there and be like, hey, I can

995
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: take out that other filling and replace it too, that's

996
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: right next to it. And so now I have, you know,

997
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: all white fillings, which is exciting any that was getting

998
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: away from it. But yeah, no, we have digressed. We

999
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: have digressed. But sure, yeah, no, why why not like

1000
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: go to the dentists is the same time as like

1001
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: older children who don't need to be like really closely supervised.

1002
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: I think that's a time saver there. I can give

1003
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: you guys the go ahead. Do you have more Yes,

1004
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: you were talking about activities a little bit right, Just

1005
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: that you know, when the kids are little, if they

1006
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,919
Speaker 1: are not expressing too much interest in their own unique things.

1007
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: I mean, some of this is going to be whatever

1008
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: the older girl winds up doing, her sisters are to

1009
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: wind up doing too. I mean, this is just the

1010
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: reality of having lots of kids in close succession, is

1011
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 1: that those will be the activities you are familiar with,

1012
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: and because your other daughters will see them, that will

1013
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: sort of be what they'll want to do, which is great.

1014
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: Like you can try and get everyone in, you know,

1015
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: lessons at the same time or at the same place.

1016
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: You can also, I mean, they will express their own

1017
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: interests eventually, because they are different people, and that just

1018
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: because their siblings doesn't mean they're the same people. Same

1019
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: thing with twins. If you had twins, you wouldn't you know,

1020
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: they're going to be their own people too. It doesn't

1021
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: mean then y'll do the same thing, but you know,

1022
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 1: I think you should feel free to set systems for

1023
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 1: the whole family and then kids can have their own things.

1024
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: But they also need to work within the structures of

1025
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: a bigger family. So like this is homework time, this

1026
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: is everyone is in the room reading time. You know,

1027
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: this is what we have for breakfast. It You can

1028
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: make a lot of these decisions with an eye toward

1029
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: making it work for you, given that. I think there's

1030
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: so many upsides of having lots of sibling I mean,

1031
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: I say this obviously from the perspective of having children.

1032
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: I'd like bigger families, But if you have them, you know,

1033
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,959
Speaker 1: the systems wind up being the thing, and individual people

1034
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: can have their own thing within that, but the systems

1035
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 1: are very important. All right now, Sarah, you have some

1036
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: no I think we tend to think really alike with

1037
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 1: a lot of this. And you know, even with activities,

1038
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 1: you can offer them either to do the same activity

1039
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: or if they don't want that, then you may offer

1040
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: them a list. Hey, these are all the activities at

1041
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: the hy at this hour. You have to pick one

1042
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: that's available at that time because that's when we're going

1043
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: to the y. So you may logistically be able to

1044
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: batch them even if they're not doing exactly the same thing.

1045
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: I just wanted to tell the story that I tried

1046
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: to put my two older. So Annabella is six and

1047
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: a half and Cameron is almost five. Pre K and

1048
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: first grade kind of different developmental stages, but I figured

1049
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: close enough, and the gymnastics class said it was for

1050
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: ages four to seven, so I'm like, great, not great.

1051
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 1: They were like totally every week. The teacher said, you know,

1052
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: they'd be really good if they weren't in class together,

1053
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 1: because they just disrupt each other, and then they disrupt

1054
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 1: everybody else because their brother and really they both have

1055
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 1: potential on their own. But this is not working. And

1056
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: I was kind of like, well, we'll just have to

1057
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: deal with that next time because the activity schedule is

1058
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: set and it's not going to change. So but for

1059
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: the future, I've learned my lesson and maybe they could

1060
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: take classes at the same time, but not in the

1061
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: actual same class. I was gonna mention, that's fine. I

1062
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: love that you use the word that they were sabotaging

1063
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,720
Speaker 1: each other. I'm trying to think about what it means

1064
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: to sabotage each other in a gymnastic setting, like it's

1065
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: their turn to do it, and so you might trip

1066
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: them on the way up to the bar. I don't

1067
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: even know, just terrible so bedtime is a question. We've

1068
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: gotten a lot. I get it a lot on my

1069
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: blog and Laura's gotten it, and I would say my

1070
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 1: bedtime routine is all about batching, specifically the older two.

1071
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: I feel like it would be the same amount of

1072
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: work to put like Genevieve and Cameron to bed as

1073
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 1: it is to put Genevieve and Cameron Annabel to bed,

1074
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: because she goes to bed first, and then they share

1075
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: a room, so they just we just like, okay, now

1076
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,439
Speaker 1: you're both brushing your teeth. Okay, now we're both reading

1077
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: a story. And they can listen to the same books.

1078
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: So I think there's there's a lot you can. You know,

1079
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: economy of scale really really is a thing. So I say,

1080
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:07,839
Speaker 1: go for it. But I was gonna leave you all

1081
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: also with the doctor's perspective, because I've got plenty of

1082
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: batched siblings which will come in to see me. I

1083
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: do have one family of four kids. I let them

1084
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 1: book like half my morning, like it'll just be this

1085
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 1: one family because I know they're going to come. But

1086
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: if you do book, especially like more than two kids,

1087
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: do not know a show because then you have kind

1088
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 1: of like taken up a lot of spots, yes, the

1089
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:36,280
Speaker 1: entire The other one is try your best to focus

1090
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: on one kid at a time. So whichever one you

1091
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: want to start with, go for it, but don't be like, oh,

1092
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: and it's not like the doctor probably is like has

1093
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: one note open and really is trying to think about

1094
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 1: that patient story. So they're not ready to hear things

1095
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: about the other one while you're focused on one. So

1096
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: maybe try if you can kick the other one out

1097
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: of the room and let them hang out in the

1098
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: waiting room or at very you know, they can be

1099
00:55:58,200 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: on their iPad or reading a book or something, but

1100
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: just really have the mindset that, Okay, we're going to

1101
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 1: talk about this one and then we'll talk about that one.

1102
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: Because my parents tend to, like, I don't know, they

1103
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: get excited and then they say, oh, I'm more worried

1104
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: about this one, but like what, we already started with

1105
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 1: that one on this one. So yeah, well that makes

1106
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,479
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense, makes a lot of sense.

1107
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds.

1108
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: We've been talking with Laura Mihilic Levin about making a

1109
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: mindful return to work. Lots of great maternity leave and

1110
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: post maternity leave tips. There so we'll be back next

1111
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 1: week with more on making work and life fit together.

1112
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

1113
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,720
Speaker 1: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram,

1114
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

1115
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please

1116
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: join us next time for more on making work and

1117
00:56:58,719 --> 00:56:59,800
Speaker 1: life work together.