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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 2: This is Robert Lamb and this is Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 2: it's Saturday. We're heading on down into the vault for

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Speaker 2: an older episode of the show. This is part three

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Speaker 2: of our series on necromancy called The Necromantic Urge, originally

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Speaker 2: published on October fifth, twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy but Macmore and Sodosma were necromancers who came from

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Speaker 1: the dark Isle of Nat to practice their baleful arts

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Speaker 1: in Tinniath beyond the shrunken seas. But they did not

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Speaker 1: prosper in Tinniath, for death was deemed a holy thing

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Speaker 1: by the people of that gray country, and the nothingness

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Speaker 1: of the tomb was not lightly to be desecrated, and

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Speaker 1: the raising up of the dead by necromancy was held

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Speaker 1: in abomination. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production

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Speaker 1: of by Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 2: three in our series on necromancy. The ancient practice of

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Speaker 2: consulting the dead or the spirits of the dead for

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Speaker 2: the purpose of divination, of accessing hidden knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Yes, despite the fact that a lot of our modern

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Speaker 1: pop cultuy uses of necromancy tend to involve raising of

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Speaker 1: the dead. And actually that quote that I read at

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Speaker 1: the top of this episode is from the nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: two short story The Empire of the Necromancers by Clark

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Speaker 1: Ashton Smith, and it is full of raising the dead

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Speaker 1: via the necromantic arts. But as we've discussed in these

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Speaker 1: episodes so far, necromancy, as we loosely categorize it, is

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Speaker 1: more situated in the realm of divination.

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Speaker 2: Well, in the previous episodes in the series, which if

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Speaker 2: you haven't listened to yet, you should probably go check

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Speaker 2: those out first. But in these previous episodes we talked

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Speaker 2: about accounts of necromancy or pseudo necromantic legends from ancient China.

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Speaker 2: We talked about accounts of how necromancy was practiced or

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Speaker 2: may have been practiced in ancient Mesopotamia, including consulting these

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Speaker 2: tablets that have descriptions of the incantations to use and

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Speaker 2: the potions to prepare if you want to speak to

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Speaker 2: the dead through a prepared skull in a special ritual.

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Speaker 2: In part two, we talked about a lot of accounts

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Speaker 2: of necromancy as practiced or at least as used as

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Speaker 2: a plot device in stories from ancient Greece and Rome

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Speaker 2: and today, we wanted to come back and finish out

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Speaker 2: the discussion by talking about necromancy a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, We're going to jump around a little bit here

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Speaker 1: later on in the episode. I think we're going to

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Speaker 1: get into some medieval Christian ideas about necromancy, what it was,

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Speaker 1: and whether you should do it or not. A spoiler

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Speaker 1: in tended to say no, don't do it, but with

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Speaker 1: some caveats, so I'll get into.

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Speaker 2: I also want to interrogate the boundaries of necromancy a

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Speaker 2: little bit and maybe pick apart the concept somewhat. But

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Speaker 2: before we do that, there's a question that's been coming

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Speaker 2: up because we've been looking at examples from the ancient

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Speaker 2: world of how this may have been practiced, or at

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Speaker 2: least was thought by some to be practiced in the

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Speaker 2: ancient world. My question would be, well, how far back

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Speaker 2: does it go? What's the earliest evidence we have of

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Speaker 2: people trying to communicate or consult with the dead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's get into that a little bit again,

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Speaker 1: with the huge caveat that the term necromancy can be

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Speaker 1: applied very broadly or very specifically, and is ultimately just

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Speaker 1: a word. So with that in mind, I will refer

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Speaker 1: back briefly to the paper The Origins of Necromancy or

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Speaker 1: How We Learn to Speak to the Dead by Czech

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Speaker 1: academic Andres Kabcar. He argues for a connection potentially between

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Speaker 1: ancient shamanistic practices and what we might think of as necromancy,

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Speaker 1: with individual human beings often serving as psychopomps. For example,

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Speaker 1: you know, guardians guide there to guide one spirit from

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Speaker 1: this world into the next. Other functions that would put

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Speaker 1: a living mortal shaman in some form of communication with

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Speaker 1: the deceased are also imaginable. This in addition to just

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Speaker 1: general ancestor veneration, ancestor cults, and ancestor worshiped. So it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not inconceivable to consider all of this potential

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Speaker 1: hallmark of human spiritual and religious thought going back to

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Speaker 1: very early human culture as a coping method for the

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Speaker 1: emotionally and socially devastating reality of death. Right.

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Speaker 2: We don't know, but it seems perfectly plausible that it

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Speaker 2: could be something like first people, you know, just merely

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Speaker 2: emotionally missed their dead loved ones and wanted to you know,

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Speaker 2: continue thinking about them and talking about them and so forth,

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Speaker 2: and maybe from this arose some kind of culture of

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Speaker 2: keeping their memory alive, out of which arose some kind

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Speaker 2: of idea that, well, maybe there are ways to still

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Speaker 2: talk to them somehow, and maybe they have something to

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Speaker 2: say to us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean, we undeniably have a desire to

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Speaker 1: speak to them. I mean, that's that's proven out in

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Speaker 1: so many countless examples, including our own individual experiences. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of us have visited the grave

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Speaker 1: of a deceased loved one and spoken to them, you know,

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Speaker 1: varying degrees of understanding or expectation of them hearing us well,

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Speaker 1: and certainly of them speaking back to us. But to

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Speaker 1: speak to the dead, I think is not necessarily this

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Speaker 1: you know, this alien supernatural thing. I think it comes

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Speaker 1: from a very natural place in the human psyche, and I

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Speaker 1: mean probably gets back into this idea that, yeah, when

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Speaker 1: someone dies is it is emotionally and soually devastating and

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Speaker 1: we have to find ways to deal with it.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, while you can imagine that historical

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Speaker 2: or prehistoric development and it certainly seems plausible. It's hard

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Speaker 2: to have decisive evidence for things like that, or to

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Speaker 2: have decisive evidence of practices of communicating with and getting

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Speaker 2: knowledge from the dead from before times of say literary

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Speaker 2: writings about such.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, because the literature gives us more insight into

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Speaker 1: what was done, why it was done, and what the

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Speaker 1: expectation was. In many instances, sometimes you know there are

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Speaker 1: still questions, certainly, but otherwise what are you left with?

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Speaker 1: You're left with human remains, and you can sort of

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Speaker 1: look at like two broad categories, situations where human remains

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Speaker 1: have not been manipulated by human beings and situations where

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Speaker 1: they have been manipulated by human beings and added caveat.

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Speaker 1: As we've discussed in the show before, and we've recently

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Speaker 1: had a guest in the show to discuss this, like

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Speaker 1: sometimes that's up for dispute too, with one side saying,

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Speaker 1: I don't think these bodies were manipulated by human beings.

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Speaker 1: I think they were manipulated by predatory animals, and then

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Speaker 1: the other side saying, no, this is evidence of humans

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Speaker 1: manipulating their dead, and intentional manipulation of the dead has

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Speaker 1: been going on for a very long time. At least

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Speaker 1: since the time of the Neanderthals. We move bodies, and

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Speaker 1: we've moved bodies for various purposes, and a rich global

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Speaker 1: heritage of funerary practices have grown out of these traditions.

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Speaker 1: But with the oldest burials, you look at them and yeah,

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Speaker 1: we just have very little to go on when we're

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Speaker 1: trying to decide, try and figure out what was the

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Speaker 1: intent behind this practice? It was it a practice and

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Speaker 1: what was the intent? Right?

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Speaker 2: So, given those extreme caveats, what are some of these

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Speaker 2: pieces of ambiguous evidence people might point to to think,

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Speaker 2: I wonder if this was used for romantic purposes, for necromancy.

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Speaker 1: Well, Kapcar highlights ancient archaeological sites linked to ancestor cults

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Speaker 1: as being some of the main candidates for some form

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Speaker 1: of ancient necromancy in the Middle East. And I should

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Speaker 1: add that he's not arguing, like one hundred percent this

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Speaker 1: is necromancy. He's just saying, like, Okay, beyond what we

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Speaker 1: can be certain about, what evidence could we make an

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Speaker 1: argument about. A specific mention is made of the plaster

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Speaker 1: covered heads of cattle hook dating back to seventy five

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Speaker 1: hundred to fifty seven hundred BCE. We've mentioned this place

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Speaker 1: on the show before, specifically in our invention episodes on

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Speaker 1: the coffin, the toilet, and the Mirror, as well as

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Speaker 1: our stuff to Blow your Mind episodes on brain and

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Speaker 1: head theft. Because there does seem to be some sort

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Speaker 1: of ritual removal of the head here.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's zero in on the example of plastered human

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Speaker 2: skulls from the ancient Fertile Crescent to see what we

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Speaker 2: can figure out from them. A rob, I've attached a

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Speaker 2: picture for you to look at here. This is a

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Speaker 2: famous plastered skull from I think dates given or sometimes

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Speaker 2: nine thousand or nine thousand, five hundred years ago. This

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Speaker 2: is sometimes known as the Jerre Coast skull. It is

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Speaker 2: one of the skulls recovered from the tell or the

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Speaker 2: mound of the ancient settlement of Jericho, and this is

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Speaker 2: from the Neolithic period.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is quite intriguing to look at because again

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Speaker 1: you have a human skull, but it has been covered

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Speaker 1: in plaster in a way to sort of it seems like,

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Speaker 1: to recreate the flesh of the dead. And then we

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Speaker 1: have what I believe these are shells that have been

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Speaker 1: placed in where the eyes would be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So there are multiple artifacts of this type

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Speaker 2: from the ancient Levant and some from Turkey, from again

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Speaker 2: the site of Chattelhuyuk and is essentially what these are,

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Speaker 2: real human skulls, sometimes without the mandible, so without the

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Speaker 2: lower jaw, filled in with earth or plaster, and then

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Speaker 2: covered on the outside in plaster at least on the front,

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Speaker 2: and decorated with individual facial features. So as you said,

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Speaker 2: rob seashells for eyes, they might be clamshell or cowie shells,

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Speaker 2: some kind of shells, marine shells to simulate eyeballs, and

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Speaker 2: then plaster facial structure, so maybe even like eyelids, overlapping

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Speaker 2: the seashells in a way, and of course painting on

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Speaker 2: the outside, so hair and eyebrows, mustaches and so forth

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Speaker 2: would be painted on the plaster. I was actually watching

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Speaker 2: an interview with a curator at the British Museum, coincidentally

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Speaker 2: another in the series Curator's Corner, which I mentioned in

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Speaker 2: part one of this series for unrelated reasons. That was

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Speaker 2: just an interview with an author named Irving Finkel who

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Speaker 2: we were reading a paper from that was about ancient

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Speaker 2: Mesopotamian exorcism practices. This is an interview with a curator

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Speaker 2: from the British Museum named Alexandra Fletcher about the Jericho skull,

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Speaker 2: and she opines that the Jericho skull, the one you're

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Speaker 2: looking at here, rob is probably the oldest example of

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Speaker 2: portraiture in the British Museum's collection because of the assumption

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Speaker 2: that it was made to resemble a specific person, though

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Speaker 2: we don't know that. We don't know for sure, but

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Speaker 2: these skulls are usually assumed to have been made to

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Speaker 2: resemble the person the skull belonged to in life.

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Speaker 1: Which makes sense, right. I mean, if you're gonna do

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Speaker 1: a plaster sculpture of someone and you have their skull

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Speaker 1: on hand, like there you go, that's the perfect foundation

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Speaker 1: upon which to create your art.

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Speaker 2: And there's an interesting scientific and technological parallel to this

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Speaker 2: that comes up in a second. So Fletcher goes into

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Speaker 2: describing some work, like analysis work that has been done

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Speaker 2: on the Jericho skull. She says, as background, he was

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Speaker 2: part of a group of seven people who were buried

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Speaker 2: together uncovered in the nineteen fifties, and she talks about

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Speaker 2: research to try to analyze the human skull underneath without

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Speaker 2: damaging the plaster surrounding it, at least at least surrounding

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Speaker 2: the front of the skull. The back is more exposed,

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Speaker 2: and she says that the researchers used CT scanning to

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Speaker 2: create an image of the bone underneath without hurting the place,

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Speaker 2: and that revealed some interesting stuff. For example, this man's

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Speaker 2: nose was broken sometime in life, and it shows how

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Speaker 2: it had been broken and healed. And as a child,

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Speaker 2: this man had had his head bound to possibly to

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Speaker 2: shape the skull. As the man grew up, so there

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Speaker 2: was a sense in which the skull was sort of pinched,

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Speaker 2: and you can see a ridge in the skull where

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Speaker 2: it was pinched that way. And this as he developed,

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Speaker 2: he had slightly elongated skull for this reason.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, not an uncommon practice in certain parts

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Speaker 1: of the ancient world.

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Speaker 2: After death, the inside of the skull was stuffed with

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Speaker 2: soil and clay, and there's a hole in the back

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Speaker 2: of the skull where Fletcher says you can still see

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Speaker 2: the indentations of the fingers of the person who packed

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Speaker 2: the clay into the brain cavity.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: But the interesting parallel to the ancient plaster surrounding the

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Speaker 2: skull is that by analyzing the bone structure, modern scientists

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Speaker 2: were able to with a good degree of accuracy, they think,

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Speaker 2: reconstruct this man's face. The process is considered not exact,

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Speaker 2: but pretty accurate, to the extent that Fletcher claims that

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Speaker 2: if people who knew this man in life walked into

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Speaker 2: the room and saw the reconstruction, she says she thinks

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Speaker 2: they would instantly recognize him. So, in a way, we

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Speaker 2: have used modern technology to reconstruct this man's face around

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Speaker 2: the basis of the skull, much like ancient people used

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Speaker 2: I guess probably memory of what this man looked like

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Speaker 2: to reconstruct his face in plaster around the skull.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating, though again we can't know one

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Speaker 1: d you know why they did this, and certainly you

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Speaker 1: can make arguments for the lifelike qualities being bestowed upon

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Speaker 1: the skull in order to communicate with it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's that's certainly the hard nechromatic angle to take on it,

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Speaker 1: and others have found this interesting as well. These skulls

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Speaker 1: are brought up by Julian James in his book The

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Speaker 1: Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Biicameral Mind

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Speaker 1: as being you know, one of the many different bits

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Speaker 1: of evidence or alleged evidence from the ancient world that

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Speaker 1: he uses to back up this this hypothesis of the

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Speaker 1: biicameral mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he probably is leaning heavily on the interpretation that

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Speaker 2: people talk to these skulls, which again I want to

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Speaker 2: really emphasize, like, we don't know that. All we have

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Speaker 2: are the artifacts. There are not there's not literature describing

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Speaker 2: how these skulls were used in the ancient world, So

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Speaker 2: we just don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know if they spoke to the skulls.

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Speaker 1: For the most I mean, we don't know the skull

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Speaker 1: We assume the skulls did not answer, though Jane's would

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Speaker 1: argue that they possibly did. And yes, if Julian Jane's

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Speaker 1: hypothesis was correct, that would impact everything we've been discussing

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Speaker 1: about in terms of necromancy, because it would mean that, yes,

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Speaker 1: there here is a neural logical way that the dead

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Speaker 1: not only could speak to human beings, but spoke to

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Speaker 1: them on a regular basis. Go back and listen to

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Speaker 1: our old episodes on his hypothesis if you want to

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Speaker 1: know more about that. But yeah, at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, like did they just simply recreate these faces

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Speaker 1: in order to honor them, to remember them, and if

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Speaker 1: they were speaking to them, like we can sort of

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Speaker 1: imagine like a broad scale a spectrum of possible necromancy,

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Speaker 1: you know, and there's you know, there are certainly versions

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Speaker 1: of this interpretation in which they might have been speaking

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Speaker 1: to these skulls, but we're not actually seeking knowledge from

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Speaker 1: the dead.

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Speaker 2: That's right. So I want to get deeper into that

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Speaker 2: in a minute. But in a way, this connects to

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Speaker 2: what I thought was an interesting little side comment that

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Speaker 2: this British Museum researcher Alexander Fletcher makes in this interview

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Speaker 2: where she just kind of says that, you know, the

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Speaker 2: longer you work with work with these skulls, do research

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Speaker 2: on them, especially maybe from the you know, the reconstruction

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Speaker 2: of the face, the more you come to see the

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Speaker 2: skulls not just as an artifact but as a person.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, wow, maybe I am over interpreting,

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Speaker 2: but that seems perhaps revealing about the effect they might

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Speaker 2: have had on the people who originally made them as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I want to come back to the idea of adding

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Speaker 2: some sort of complications to the idea of necromancy or

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Speaker 2: divination through the dead as a coherent and discreet practice.

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Speaker 2: So I was thinking about this, and I was thinking

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Speaker 2: about how in a lot of these early settlements where

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Speaker 2: these plaster skulls are found, you know, the settlements with

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Speaker 2: permanent structures like chattlehou Yuk which you mentioned in Jericho,

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Speaker 2: there are other interesting features about how the dead were

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Speaker 2: dealt with as well, not just the creation of plaster skulls,

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Speaker 2: But in these settlements, it seems sometimes the bodies of

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Speaker 2: the dead were buried inside people's houses. So maybe your grandparents'

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Speaker 2: bones might not be often a cemetery somewhere else that

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Speaker 2: you go and visit from time to time, but right

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Speaker 2: in the house with you, maybe buried under the floor

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Speaker 2: or under your bed. Again, we don't know for sure

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Speaker 2: why they did this. All kinds of speculation abounds. In

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Speaker 2: some cases, it looks like the bodies might have been

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Speaker 2: removed elsewhere for the flesh to rot off the bones

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Speaker 2: or be picked off the bones. Maybe the bones were

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Speaker 2: defleshed somewhere else and then maybe brought back inside the house,

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Speaker 2: and then they would live under the floor, under your

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Speaker 2: bed or something. But these are also places where we

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Speaker 2: encounterplastered skulls. So it just seems it seems possible to

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Speaker 2: me that if the skull had some kind of significance

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Speaker 2: as a conduit for communication with the dead, I wonder

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Speaker 2: if it wasn't a spec discrete, transactional event ritual like

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Speaker 2: we've been talking about in some of these Greek stories,

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Speaker 2: you know, where you like you go to the oracle

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Speaker 2: and you know what I mean, like it being a

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Speaker 2: special event. I wonder if it's more like just a

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Speaker 2: kind of continuous belief that, yes, Grandma is still here

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Speaker 2: with us, she's in the house, she lives with us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I can easily imagine that that being

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Speaker 1: the case. Again, it's not too far away from sort

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Speaker 1: of the mild background supernatural ideas that many of us

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Speaker 1: may may dabble in, you know, like to think about

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Speaker 1: a deceased loved one being nearby, you know. I think

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Speaker 1: it is something that a lot of us probably do

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Speaker 1: to some degree without even being on the level of,

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Speaker 1: like I believe in ghosts, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so if the situation were something more like that,

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Speaker 2: to the extent that you would seek advice from your

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Speaker 2: grandparent in this context, I wonder if it would give

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Speaker 2: kind of the wrong impression to call that necromancy, because

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Speaker 2: again of the all the stories we have in which

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Speaker 2: the necromancy is usually more a like I was saying,

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Speaker 2: a discrete, transactional kind of event ritual versus something that

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Speaker 2: is just intimate and continuous in part of life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so many of these stories, ancient and modern, depict

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Speaker 1: necromancy as kind of an extreme thing. You do, you know,

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Speaker 1: when other attempts to remedy a situation have not worked,

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Speaker 1: that's when you seek out the necromantic solution.

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Speaker 2: But then again, just to emphasize how little we know

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Speaker 2: for sure, there could be totally different explanations as well.

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Speaker 2: I mean, maybe burying the bones in the house and

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Speaker 2: putting a plaster face over your ancestor skull, maybe that

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Speaker 2: was just merely a form of honoring and remembering people,

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Speaker 2: just like you might I don't know, have a photo

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Speaker 2: of a dead relative on the wall today or something

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Speaker 2: buried with them. You know, we miss our ancestor who

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Speaker 2: has passed on. So maybe we keep the bones or

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Speaker 2: plaster the skull in a way under the house or

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Speaker 2: in the house in a way of remembering them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so certainly these are not neutral skulls. These

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Speaker 1: are skulls that are conceivably connected to loved ones, but

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Speaker 1: still like even like human understanding and appreciation of skulls

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Speaker 1: is kind of complex because they take on all these

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Speaker 1: symbolic meanings, but then they're also there's also this sort

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Speaker 1: of like coolness to the skull that has seem to

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Speaker 1: exist for a long time, and you know, we get

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Speaker 1: into this with other skull based traditions and artifacts as well.

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Speaker 1: Is discussed in their recent either recently rerun or about

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Speaker 1: to be rerun episode where I interviewed Brian Hoggart about

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Speaker 1: anti witchcraft precautions, some of which involved putting skulls, particularly

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Speaker 1: horse skulls, in the foundation of a building. Like a

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Speaker 1: lot of it's just kind of like, well, horse skulls

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Speaker 1: are really interesting looking. They don't look like horses, but

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Speaker 1: yet they are horses, and horses have this important place

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Speaker 1: in human lives. So yeah, there are a number of

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Speaker 1: different ways you can go in and try and figure

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Speaker 1: out like why was this important?

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Speaker 2: Right, So there's just so much like we don't know

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Speaker 2: anybody who has too confident or too certain a theory

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Speaker 2: about what these remains meant and how they were used.

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Speaker 2: I think you should be highly skeptical of that, but

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Speaker 2: I do think one interesting piece of information that we

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Speaker 2: can use is not from the ancient world itself, but

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Speaker 2: just from looking at practices of ancestor veneration today by analogy,

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Speaker 2: which is a totally common practice all over the world.

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Speaker 1: That's right, we discussed We've discussed some of these already,

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Speaker 1: at least in Passing, particularly the importance of ancestor veneration

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Speaker 1: in Chinese culture, right.

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Speaker 2: And so I was looking for some documentation of people

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Speaker 2: today with religious practices that could be considered to include

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Speaker 2: strong elements of ancestor veneration and also something that could

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Speaker 2: be considered divination via deceased ancestors. And I think from

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Speaker 2: what I can tell, this combination of beliefs is not

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Speaker 2: especially unique or unusual. Lots of people around the world

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Speaker 2: practice forms of ancestor veneration that might include some way

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Speaker 2: of establishing contact with the dead or getting information or

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Speaker 2: messages from them. But I wanted to find one clear

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Speaker 2: example with documentation of specifics so we're not just dealing

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Speaker 2: with generalities. And I came across an interesting paper looking

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Speaker 2: at the Bupeti people. So this was by Maura kang

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Speaker 2: E k Lebaka, who is a scholar at the University

387
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Speaker 2: of South Africa specializing in African musical arts and ethnomusicology.

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Speaker 2: The paper was called the Art of Establishing and Maintaining

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Speaker 2: Contact with Ancestors, a study of Bapeti tradition published in

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Speaker 2: the journal HTS Theological Studies in the year twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: So the Buppetti people mostly live within northern South Africa,

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Speaker 2: and Lebaca, synthesizing the work of some previous ethnographers, describes

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Speaker 2: a common view of ancestors among the Bapeti people. Again,

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Speaker 2: same caveat with all of the examples we've talked about.

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Speaker 2: Beliefs are not usually universal within a culture. All you

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Speaker 2: can do is describe commonly found beliefs. He says, first

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Speaker 2: of all, in the words of a scholar named Mibiti,

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Speaker 2: there is a widespread belief in many African traditional religions

399
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Speaker 2: that quote, death does not annihilate life, and the departed

400
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Speaker 2: continue to exist in the hereafter, so the dead are

401
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Speaker 2: not gone, they remain spiritually alive in some sense. Also,

402
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Speaker 2: Lebacca says that the character of ancestors is believed to

403
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Speaker 2: remain fundamentally unchanged since they were alive dead ancestors go

404
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 2: on existing. They remain themselves in good and bad ways,

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Speaker 2: so they can protect and advise their descendants. But they

406
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Speaker 2: are also not like perfect, perfected, ethereal beings. They're like us,

407
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Speaker 2: and they are like they were in life, so also

408
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Speaker 2: prone to jealousy and motivations of that sort. He says,

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Speaker 2: the spirits of ancestors have the power to affect the

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Speaker 2: fates of the living, and this can be for good

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Speaker 2: or for ill. Their behavior toward the living depends largely

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Speaker 2: on if they are properly honored and venerated, and Lebaca

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Speaker 2: argues that veneration is different from worship. Veneration is more

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Speaker 2: like the respect that the young are expected to give

415
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Speaker 2: to their elders, except extended beyond the bound boundary of death,

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Speaker 2: and does have special rituals involved. He says ancestral spirits

417
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Speaker 2: guard and enforce morality within the family and prevent feuds

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Speaker 2: and conflicts between living members of the family. This is

419
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Speaker 2: mentioned later in the article, but it's worth noting that

420
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Speaker 2: ancestors are believed to be powerful and can cause supernatural

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Speaker 2: outcomes to affect people, but they're not omnipotent. They can't

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Speaker 2: do anything Lebaca says that sometimes but petty ancestors need

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Speaker 2: to be contacted, need to be communicated with, and he

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Speaker 2: says there are a couple of main ways to establish contact.

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Speaker 2: There are these communal music and dance ceremonies known as

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Speaker 2: the Malopo ritual, and that appeases the ancestral spirits. But

427
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Speaker 2: there is also a way of seeking help of traditional healers,

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Speaker 2: especially with the use of divination bones. Now, I want

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Speaker 2: to note that, as far as I could tell, these

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Speaker 2: are not the bones of ancestors. The paper doesn't address

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Speaker 2: this question directly, but it seemed to me, based on

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Speaker 2: a photo included in the paper and the fact that

433
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 2: it was not specified otherwise, that these would probably be

434
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: normal kind of bones that would be used in practices

435
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: of osteomancy.

436
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think in other instances of bones being used

437
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: as essentially, you know, dies of some sort, they've always

438
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: been animal bones. I don't remember off hand an example

439
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: of them being human bones, but it may exist elsewhere.

440
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: I only specified that because we were just talking about

441
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 2: examples of bones being kept like within the houses of

442
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: the living, So I think we're not talking about ancestors

443
00:25:59,280 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 2: bones here.

444
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right, they would assurely specified if

445
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: that was the case.

446
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: So Lebaca in this paper includes a number of interviews

447
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: with traditional healers, one of whom describes that direct communication

448
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 2: between healers and their own ancestors happens through music and

449
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: through dreams, and that the purpose of the use of

450
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 2: music and group singing in ritual contact with ancestors is

451
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: quote to create harmony between the living and the ancestors.

452
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: And I thought that was interesting because it reminds me

453
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 2: of the way that, of course singing can be used

454
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 2: to create a sense of togetherness among the living alone,

455
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: you know, just like a people a group of people

456
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: singing together. I think almost everybody will know what I'm

457
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: talking about when I say the way that creates this

458
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: weird sense of emergent harmony and sort of group identity.

459
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: And so maybe by inviting the dead to be a

460
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: part of that as well, you're sort of bringing them

461
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: to the table in a way.

462
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

463
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 2: But this paper a naturalistic approach of observing malopo rituals

464
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: and interviewing traditional healers about the function of ancestor veneration

465
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: in Bapetti society. And there's one story recounted in the

466
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 2: paper Told by a Healer that that goes basically as follows.

467
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 2: I'll do a shorter summary the healer. Before she was

468
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: a traditional healer, she had been sick and had experienced

469
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: trouble sleeping, and then she had a dream of a

470
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 2: man who gave her a plastic bag full of divination bones,

471
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: and so she went to her Christian church to find

472
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: out what to do, and they gave her some instructions

473
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: of things she could do, but she did not follow

474
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: the instructions and started having encounters with snakes, like there

475
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 2: was a snake in her pillowcase one night, and then

476
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: the encounters got worse. She and her husband encountered a

477
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: much bigger snake. So she and her husband went to

478
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: visit a traditional healer and he used divination bones to

479
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: discover that her grandfather had been a traditional healer himself,

480
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: and he wanted her to become a healer as well,

481
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 2: and the illness, the insomnia, and the snakes were signs

482
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 2: to push her onto this path. So in her story,

483
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 2: she accepted the call became a healer, and after her training,

484
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: she came home and was welcomed back with a malopo ritual,

485
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: and the snakes and the pain and the insomnia were gone.

486
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: There are also other stories included here of ill health

487
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,239
Speaker 2: and frightening experiences brought on by ancestors to sort of

488
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: pressure the living descendants to follow their advice and Lebaca

489
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: this is not a point Lebacca raises in the paper,

490
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: but I just happened to note that in the cases

491
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: documented in this study, the communication with dead ancestors sought

492
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: with the help of healers, does not provide information about

493
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: like objective future outcomes, such as you know what will

494
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: happen in the future, who's going to ascend to the throne,

495
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: who's going to win the war, like we talked about

496
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: in some of these ancient examples. Rather, it seems to

497
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: be providing the ancestor's personal perspective. So in this case

498
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: of divination, it has less of a prophetic quality than

499
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: in some of the like, especially the fictional accounts, and

500
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: seems more to me like it's focused on seeking the

501
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: ancestors advice, like it allows the person to understand the

502
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: ways that the ancestor is influencing their life for good

503
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: or for ill, and kind of the same way a

504
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: chat with a living elder might provide both personal advice

505
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 2: of things that they think you should do with your life,

506
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: but also explanations of why and how the elder is

507
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: treating you the way they are.

508
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and sort of serving to bring the current generation

509
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: in line with past generations and the will and the

510
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: expectations of ancestors. This reminds me of how, in certain

511
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: analysis I've read of traditional Chinese ancestor generation, that you

512
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: could think of it as a kind of structural completeness,

513
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: that the family unit is not just a thing that exists,

514
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: you know, with borders and a certain head count in

515
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: the present, but it is a thing that exists in

516
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: the present and stretching back through the past, and therefore,

517
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: like being in line with the will of ancestors is

518
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: about like keeping the structure sound and making sure that

519
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: everything is lined up and has this structural completeness, which

520
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: I think can be a slightly alien concept to many

521
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: of us, especially if you tend to sort of view

522
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: like the family is a thing that exists solely in

523
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: the present, maybe it sinks back a little bit in time,

524
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: but is not deeply rooted in the past.

525
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it seems to me to highlight how culturally variable.

526
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: The idea of the family is like what constitutes the

527
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: family and as especially as like a functional unit still

528
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 2: having an effect on all members within. Yeah, but so anyway,

529
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: to look at a few assessments from this paper, Lebacca

530
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: says that there's a common belief among people of the

531
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: Bipetti society that the main thing ancestors want is to

532
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: be remembered and respected by their descendants. And if the

533
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: living faithfully remember and venerate their ancestors, they're going to

534
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: be blessed with good health, healthy livestock and crops, good weather,

535
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: and so forth. And sometimes for a healing to take place,

536
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 2: a healer will have to consult the spirits of ancestors

537
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: directly to find out what to do. Another interesting thing

538
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: he notes is that he says Bipetti often feel that

539
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: it is inappropriate to approach their supreme deity or God directly,

540
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: and instead would use their ancestral spirits as sort of

541
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: intermediaries or emissaries between themselves and God. So I thought

542
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: this was an interesting layer of perspective that gives us,

543
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: I think, a more nuanced view of what it means

544
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: to be in contact in communication with the dead, because

545
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: here's one case where people today certainly do use rituals

546
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: such as communal music and dance and consultation with healers

547
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: using divination bones to get in contact with the dead,

548
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 2: But it does not seem to me, at least not

549
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: in the cases documented in this study, to usually be

550
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 2: for the purpose of like knowing the future in advance,

551
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: but rather for the purpose of gaining perspective on the

552
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: present and the past. You establish communication with the dead

553
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: in order to receive wisdom and to receive advice, and

554
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: to find out what your ancestors want you to do

555
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: or expect you to do, and to find out how

556
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: the ancestors advice and desires are connected to the trials

557
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: and other things you are experiencing in your daily life.

558
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: And this really got me thinking, because it made me

559
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: think that actually, even in a lot of the cases

560
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 2: we've already been looking at from you know, accounts from

561
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: the ancient world and so forth, a lot of the

562
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: cases of divination through spirits of the dead that we

563
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: looked at did not consist of a person seeking to

564
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: know the future in the kind of you know, the

565
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: fictional sorcerer sense we think about, where like somebody wants

566
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: ultimate power, and so they want to know what happens

567
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: ahead of time to exploit that. Instead, it very often

568
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: seemed to involve a much more personal, intimate, interactive kind

569
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: of knowledge, like knowledge useful for the exorcism of an

570
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: unwanted ghost, or knowledge useful to get advice, or you know,

571
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: wisdom from an ancestor or other knowledge of that kind

572
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: of personal sort. Does that make sense?

573
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean in a way it almost puts

574
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: things more in line with this idea that what we

575
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: think of as necromancy is maybe more in line with

576
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: various shamanistic practices going stretching back through various human cultures,

577
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: very far back in human existence. But yeah, not the

578
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: but a lot of like smaller practices aimed at sort

579
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: of realigning your life, things that almost could be thought

580
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: of as having a therapeutic property to them. You know,

581
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: it's like something feels out of line in my life.

582
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: I need to get right with the ancestors. I need

583
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: to touch base with the ancestors in one form or another.

584
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: But that makes me feel like maybe we should come

585
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 2: back and further explore the other side of the scale

586
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: as well. If that's a view of divination seeking communication

587
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: with the dead as a kind of intimate, wholesome, integrated

588
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: thing within people's lives and culture that helps provide the

589
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: perspective of ancestors and wisdom. There are also culturally very

590
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: different views that would place it back in the category

591
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 2: of like a special extreme, transactional kind of event ritual.

592
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And in this we're gonna we've been talking

593
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: about sort of bottom up necromancy, necromancy, things like necromancy

594
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: that have emerged as part of traditional practices. Now let's

595
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: turn back to medieval Christian Europe and think about sort

596
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: of like the top down view of a Christian hierarchy

597
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: looking to stamp out necromatic practices and necromatic texts, because,

598
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: as we've mentioned several times already, there is this general

599
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: attitude in medieval Christian Europe, again very top down, not

600
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: talking about like traditional pre Christian beliefs that are still

601
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: resonating among the various peoples of Europe and various peoples

602
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: under the control of Christian forces, but rather this top

603
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: down view that first of all, the dead cannot be

604
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: communicated with, and they should not be communicated with. If

605
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: you attempt necromancy, you may well speak with something, but

606
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: it will be a demon rather than a ghost, and

607
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,720
Speaker 1: so only ill can come of it. Now that being said,

608
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: necromancy and necromatic texts certainly existed and were circul related.

609
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: At times, they were greatly feared by the Church, as

610
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: pointed out by Richard Keikeffer in nineteen ninety sevens Forbidden Rights.

611
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: When Franciscan Friar Bernard de Lussius was accused by the

612
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: Holy Inquisition of using necromancy against the Pope in thirteen nineteen,

613
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: he was cleared of the charge, but he was still

614
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 1: sent to prison for merely possessing a book of alleged necromancy.

615
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 2: Simon, I'd rather see you dead.

616
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: Exactly. I mean that the movie you're referencing does does

617
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: present this various top down view of forbidden knowledge and

618
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 1: so forth.

619
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 2: We're talking about The Devil Rides Out by the Way,

620
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: where Christopher Lee's character like, Oh, it's okay for him

621
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: to know about all of the forbidden magical rituals, but

622
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: it's not okay for his friend Simon to know about them.

623
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean within one of these cultural situations,

624
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: it's always okay for someone to know about them, to

625
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: know about these things, and those are the ones who

626
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: get to tell everyone else that they're not allowed to

627
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: know about them. The witch hunters get all the cool texts. Anyway,

628
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: Fears and accusations of clergy possessing and or using necromantic

629
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: writings continued afterwards. However, Keir Keffer discusses these books as

630
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: concerning quote explicitly demonic magic as well, and this seems

631
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,439
Speaker 1: to have been the case during the Middle Ages as well,

632
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: where sometimes something described as necromancy did involve divination via

633
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: the dead, but other times it was used interchangeably with

634
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 1: demonic magic. By most theological definitions. However, communication with demons

635
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: and demonic divination would not be the same as merely

636
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: speaking with the dead, unless you're getting into this again

637
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: this very specific Christian caveat about the distinction or the

638
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 1: lack of a distinction between the two key Keffer writes quote.

639
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: One possible reason for the conflation of these terms and

640
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: concepts was the widespread assumption that when one engaged in

641
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: necromancy in the area sense conjuring the spirits of the deceased,

642
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: the spirits which in fact appeared were demons in the

643
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: forms of the dead and the biblical example here that

644
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: is often summoned up to support this is the shade

645
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: of Samuel being conjured by the Witch of Indoor, and

646
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: it is said that this is not really the spirit

647
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: of Samuel, this is a demon in the guise of

648
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: his spirit.

649
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 2: I don't think the Bible says that. I think in

650
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: the Bible it is pretty much understood to be Samuel.

651
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but again you get into like, what are

652
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: the official interpretations of a given religious text, right, Yeah, Still,

653
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: there was discussion of pure necromancy in various texts. A

654
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: couple of examples are brought up here. There's the Rowlinson

655
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: Necromatic Manuscript, as it's popularly known. This is a Latin

656
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: and Middle English collection of texts on magic and divination,

657
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: including the invocation of angels as well as the dead.

658
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 1: Its name for Richard Rowlinson, an eighteenth century clergy member

659
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: and collector of rare books and manuscripts. So yeah, it

660
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 1: contains instructions for necromantic magic, as does the so called

661
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: Munich Manual of Demonic Magic, a fifteenth century Godick grimour.

662
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: Instructions from the Munich Manual via Keith Kefer involve the

663
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: creation of multiple magic circles, a sword and a ring,

664
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: and you can use these rights to speak to the dead, certainly,

665
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: but also you can make a living person appear dead.

666
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: You can also make a living person fall in love

667
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 1: with you, and many other things. Hmm. Now. In one section,

668
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: ki Keffer adds some interesting ideas about the idea of

669
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: necromancy and nonsense. We often assume that everyone considering necromancy

670
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: in medieval times was either an eager believer or a

671
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: fearful inquisitor when it came to this kind of stuff,

672
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: so he writes the following quote. One might add to

673
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: this that it is not altogether anachronistic to see the

674
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: notion of necromancy as nonsense. As it's at its most playful,

675
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: it was a deliberate violation of sense, a fantasy of illusion,

676
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: perhaps intended more for imaginative entertainment than for actual use.

677
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: Yet the boundaries between sense and nonsense are rarely quite stable,

678
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: and themes that seem to an outsider absolutely nonsensical could

679
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: be taken in deadly earnest by some observers within the

680
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: culture quote and the deadly earnest observers in this particular case,

681
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: he would be referring to would be like the witch

682
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 1: hunters and so forth, the demonology theorists that brought about

683
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: so much actual, real misery in the world.

684
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: Ah, So he's exploring the possibility that it was the

685
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: inquisitors and so forth who would who were taking the

686
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: concept more literally than the people who practiced it.

687
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think maybe suggesting that there is again

688
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: kind of a it's not just necromancy and non necromancy.

689
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: You know, there's a broad spectrum of various beliefs, practices, rights,

690
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: but also stories, legends, myths that may concern speaking with

691
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: the dead that are understood to varying degrees within a

692
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: given group to not be reality, you know, to in

693
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: the same way that myth is somewhere between reality and fiction.

694
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: You know that some of these traditions hold that place.

695
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: But then you have someone come in with an agenda,

696
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: with a violent agenda, and they're here to stamp out

697
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: practices that are a threat to the church, to stamp

698
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: out individuals that are a threat to the church. Well,

699
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: then they can take any of these things and use

700
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: them to support their case. Now for a little more

701
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: detail on where the church stood on necromancy, and again

702
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: you're dealing with. We're dealing with a with centuries here,

703
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: we're dealing with all sorts of individuals coming in with

704
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: different ideas. So this is not presented to be like

705
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: the word on necromancy. But I thought it would be

706
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: interesting to turn to the famous writings of Thomas Aquinas,

707
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 1: who lived twelve twenty five through twelve seventy four. This

708
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: is from the Summa Theologica, or the Summary of Theology.

709
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 1: The book covers a great deal of ground, but it

710
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: does mention necromancy in a few places and gets to

711
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: the meat of what it was thought to be at

712
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: the time in terms of divination. So this is from

713
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: a translation of a Summa theological quote. All divinations seek

714
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: to acquire for knowledge of future events by means of

715
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: some council and help of a demon who is either

716
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: expressly called upon to give his help, or else thrust

717
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: himself in secretly, in order to tell certain future things

718
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: unknown to men but known to him the demon in

719
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: such manners as to have been explained in Isaiah fifty

720
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: seven to three.

721
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: The statement almost seems like a direct argument against what

722
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 2: we were just talking about with respect to the subtlety

723
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: and complex range of different kinds of communication with the

724
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 2: dead that might take place, especially in a culture that

725
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: practices common forms of ancestor veneration.

726
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is like, clearly we're dealing with

727
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: a situation where it is not thought that there is

728
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: any room for this sort of thing within within the

729
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: Christian world, and anything outside of the Christian world that

730
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 1: even looks like this is probably against the rules.

731
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: It's always to know the future, and it's always a demon.

732
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: Yes, So Aquinas continues to in states when demons are

733
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: expressly invoked, they are wont to foretell the future in

734
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: many ways. Sometimes they offer themselves to human sight and

735
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: hearing by mock apparitions in order to foretell the future,

736
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: and this species is called the digitation because man's eyes

737
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: are blindfolded. Sometimes they make use of dreams, and this

738
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: is called divination by dreams. Sometimes they employ apparitions or

739
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: utterances of the dead, and this species is called necromancy,

740
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: for as Isidore observes, in Greek, necron means dead and

741
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 1: mantilla divination, because after certain incantations and the sprinkling of blood,

742
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: the dead seem to come to life to divine and

743
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: to answer questions so he goes on to discuss other

744
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: forms of divination. Divination, he says, which is practiced without

745
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: express invocation of demons, occurs in two forms, one by

746
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 1: observing things in nature, and the other by observing things

747
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: due to human action, like rolling dice or flipping through

748
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: a book. He writes again in translation, accordingly, it is

749
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: clear that there are three kinds of divination. The first

750
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 1: is when the demons are invoked openly. This comes under

751
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: the head of necromancy. The second is merely an observation

752
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: of the disposition or movement of some other being, and

753
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: this belongs to augury, while the third consists in doing

754
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: something in order to discover the occult, and this belongs

755
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,280
Speaker 1: to sordilach. Under each of these, many others are contained

756
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 1: as explained above, And he says, in all the afore said,

757
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: there is the same general, but not the same special

758
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: character of sin, For it is much more grievous to

759
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: invoke the demons than to do things that deserve the

760
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: demon's interference. So he's saying, look, if you're trying to

761
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: do let's say you're trying to speak to the spirit

762
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: of the dead, and a demon intercepts the call, as

763
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: they always will and then manipulates you through that communication.

764
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: That's one thing, like, that's bad, you've messed up, But

765
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: you haven't messed up as badly if you had gone

766
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 1: out and done a demonic ritual and said, hey, demons,

767
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: I need you to come here because we have things

768
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: to talk about now. I did find it interesting that

769
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: Aquinas stresses that merely speaking to a demon or inquiring

770
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: of the truth from a demon is not unlawful, in

771
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: part because Christ spoke to the demon legion. He spoke

772
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: to the demons that were in the swine or were

773
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: driven into the swine. However, it is unlawful to invoke

774
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: a demon. So by this classification, I would think, if

775
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 1: a demon comes up to you and is like, hey, suck,

776
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: you have every right to go suck back, but it

777
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: is unlawful to summon the demon and then go suck. Right.

778
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 2: Yes, So if you encounter a demon, you can talk

779
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 2: to you, probably you can argue with it or whatever,

780
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 2: but you can't say like, hey, demons, if any demon

781
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: is out there, come debate me.

782
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Like if you're Martin Luther and the demons

783
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: show up, you can cuss at them and throw things

784
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: at them. And drive them away, right, that's not demonic

785
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: witchcraft or what have you. But if you summon them,

786
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: I guess even if you summon them to cuss at

787
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: them like, that's bad.

788
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: I would assume so. But especially if you summon them

789
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 2: in order to gain power from them, that's bad.

790
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Aquina says, quote. Now, it is one thing

791
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: to question a demon who comes to us of his

792
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: own accord, and it is lawful to do so at

793
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: times for the good of others, especially when he can

794
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: be compelled by the power of God to tell the truth,

795
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: and another to invoke a demon in order to gain

796
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: from him knowledge of things hidden from us. Now that

797
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, it seems to me like that opens

798
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: up a gray area. Are like, are you just could

799
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: you put yourself in a position where you're just in

800
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: the right place to encounter demons, so you're not quite

801
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: summoning them, but you're like, you're not baiting the demon,

802
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: but you are hanging out in a place or a

803
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: position where they might show up.

804
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, I'm gonna just keep moving my

805
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 2: arms this way, and if they happen to touch a

806
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 2: wija board, that that's its problem, not mine.

807
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm or yeah, I'm going to hang out in

808
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: this this this haunted crypt and we'll just see what happens. Yeah.

809
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: He also mentions that divination by the stars is fine

810
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: so long as you're not invoking a demon. So again,

811
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: this is just a snapshot at some of the top

812
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: down ideas about speaking to the dead and why you

813
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: shouldn't do it, and ultimately a little bit of demonology

814
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: splashed in there as well. But you know, there's so

815
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: much that would have been going on in different cultures

816
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: throughout the centuries covered by the Middle Ages here. I mean,

817
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 1: there are all sorts of traditions involving, you know, speaking

818
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 1: to the dead, conjuring the dead at crossroads and so forth,

819
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: and then there's so many on top of that, there's

820
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: so many different traditions, legends, ghost stories, et cetera that

821
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: deal with this sort of thing that again may not

822
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: have a like literal role within the culture saying this

823
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: is how you speak to the dead, but like here

824
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: is an idea of speaking to the dead, and it

825
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: can still have a great deal of importance within a

826
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 1: given culture.

827
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: Now, seeing these different views of communicating with the dead

828
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: side by side, it really highlights how how one, I

829
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: think could easily be mistaken for the other by an

830
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 2: unsympathetic observer, like somebody who's got a particular theological point

831
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 2: of view and who looks into a culture, one of

832
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: the many cultures that practice's forms of ancestor veneration that

833
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 2: may involve some type of ritual of consulting with the

834
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 2: dead with the ancestors seeking their wisdom or getting information

835
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 2: about how they're continuing to affect your life. Like that,

836
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 2: an unsympathetic observer looks in on a culture and sees that,

837
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: and they say, oh, they're doing witchcraft in order to

838
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: get power from the dead so that they can like

839
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 2: no events in advance and you know, and manipulate people.

840
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 2: It seems very clear how that kind of mistaken impression

841
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 2: could be formed. And I wonder if that gives rise

842
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 2: to some legends of necromantic practices that probably weren't ever

843
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 2: actually practiced, that were just like unsympathetic observer looking in

844
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 2: on ancestor veneration of some form in another culture and

845
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: saying like, ah, they're they're consulting the dead in order

846
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: to do something malicious.

847
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And then at the same time, I mean,

848
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: you have things like the veneration of saints within uh,

849
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: you know, Catholic Christian traditions that you know, you could

850
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: make an argument for sort of you know, scratching the

851
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: same itch. So you know, a lot of this falls

852
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of this depends on who's judging,

853
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 1: who's laying out the laws, and who's saying what is

854
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: acceptable and what is not acceptable. When we consider individuals

855
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: and generations that came before us.

856
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 2: Do you think Aquinas was saying it's okay to talk

857
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 2: to a demon if you didn't summon it, because like

858
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: he did that one time, Like he's a actually that's

859
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 2: not a problem.

860
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: Well, there there are so many you know, I enjoy

861
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: reading about this occasionally, like getting into exactly what was

862
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: thought of as correct concerning demons at various points in

863
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages, like what could they do and what

864
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: could they not do in accordance with divine will? And

865
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: there's some of that in Aquinas's writing, for sure, and

866
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: you see that in the writings of other key individuals

867
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: as well, like can they like one classic example of

868
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: this we just we've discussed multiple times is can an

869
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 1: incubus or succubist take on a complete disguise as a

870
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 1: beautiful human to seduce humans, And there's the ideal, No,

871
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 1: that wouldn't be fair to the faithful. So there'll always

872
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 1: be some sort of a tell like duck feed or

873
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 1: some sort of goat feed or something just so that

874
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: you'll have so the faithful will have an out that

875
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: you know, and so there's a lot of stuff like that.

876
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: Can demons do miracles and so forth.

877
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 2: Though I think as we discussed with the idea of

878
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 2: the duck feed, I wonder if the idea was was

879
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 2: really about the faithful having out or more about saying like, ah, yeah,

880
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: if you did succumb to an incubus or a succubus,

881
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,439
Speaker 2: it's your fault because there was something there you should

882
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: have noticed, right. It's about saying, like, you, you know,

883
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 2: it wasn't unfair to you. You should have been more

884
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 2: on the lookout.

885
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: Right, And also like what would a just god allow

886
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: under his domain? You know? And you know, there's of

887
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: course the more pressing side of that, like why do

888
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: bad things happen to good people? Why is there suffering

889
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: in the world, and so forth, And that's I guess

890
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: the larger concern. But then when you get into demonology,

891
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: like that's a whole other area. Like, Okay, well these

892
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 1: demons get to run around and just do whatever. That

893
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: doesn't seem right. They're like, well, no, no, no, they can

894
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: do certain things. And I believe Aquinas writes that, like,

895
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 1: they are allowed to do certain things because by allowing

896
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: the demons a certain amount of freedom, it actually has

897
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: a positive impact on the faithful, you know, because like

898
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: in having to deal with all this demonic stuff, like

899
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: it's going to end up bolstering your faith to some extent.

900
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 2: Hmm.

901
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: But it's complicate. It's complicated. That's why. That's why people

902
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: like Aquinas did so many words to it.

903
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 2: Okay, should we wrap up necromancy there?

904
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: I believe we will, but you know, we'd love to

905
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 1: hear from everyone out there. If there's an example of

906
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: outright necromancy and fiction, legend and lore, or various examples

907
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: of communication with spirits or ancestor veneration that you think

908
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: are notable and you'd like to bring up, well, write in.

909
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you. We can keep

910
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:30,240
Speaker 1: discussing this topic on future editions of listener Mail. Listener

911
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: Mail publishes on Mondays and The Stuff to Blow your

912
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed We have our core episodes of the

913
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: show Stuff to Blow Your Mind on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

914
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: On Wednesdays, we generally have a short form monster fact

915
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 1: or Artifact episode, and then on Fridays we set aside

916
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film

917
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 1: on Weird House Cinema.

918
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 2: Here's thanks to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway. If

919
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 2: you would like to get in touch with us with

920
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 2: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

921
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 2: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

922
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,760
Speaker 2: can email us at contact a, stuff blow your Mind

923
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:11,480
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924
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,759
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925
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