1
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,480
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I walcome to stuff

2
00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:08,280
Speaker 1: I've never told your prediction.

3
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:09,000
Speaker 2: iHeart radio.

4
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,800
Speaker 3: We're so excited about this conversation. But before we start,

5
00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,239
Speaker 3: we do want to add content warnings about the fact

6
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,080
Speaker 3: that we are going to talk about eating disorders, sexual

7
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 3: assault and abuse as well as just really bad things

8
00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,640
Speaker 3: happening in the world as we know, and trauma childhood,

9
00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 3: trauma and abuse as well. So let's see it into

10
00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,559
Speaker 3: it and y'all today we are so excited because not

11
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,640
Speaker 3: only am are we talking to one of our featured

12
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,040
Speaker 3: activists around the world, Hello, but someone that I have

13
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,840
Speaker 3: been following for a while now who has been a

14
00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,520
Speaker 3: big fan of their art and all the things that

15
00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:56,920
Speaker 3: they do. All the things that they do.

16
00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,000
Speaker 4: Caitlin Lenny, thank you so much for being on the show.

17
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm thrilled to

18
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:03,880
Speaker 2: be here.

19
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:06,360
Speaker 3: Okay, before we get into this, cause we're going to

20
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,440
Speaker 3: talk a lot about your background, Can you introduce yourself

21
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:10,360
Speaker 3: to our listeners.

22
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,720
Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Flenny. I go by Liberal Gain online.

23
00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,000
Speaker 2: I'm an artist and activist. Most of my work centers

24
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,119
Speaker 2: around the framework of everyone deserves the right to bodily autonomy,

25
00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:28,000
Speaker 2: and I've been creating illustrations for the last eight nine years.

26
00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,120
Speaker 4: At this point, does it feel weird when you start

27
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,039
Speaker 4: thinking about how long you've been doing this?

28
00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,720
Speaker 5: Like it feels short? But at the same time, Phil Forever.

29
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,639
Speaker 2: It's wild because I went to college for new media,

30
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,000
Speaker 2: which was kind of like digital art type stuff. My

31
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 2: username is a nickname that I had reclaimed from my family,

32
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 2: and so I created that account like in twenty sixteen,

33
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,480
Speaker 2: and it was my personal account for like two three years.

34
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,320
Speaker 2: Like I was just posting for the sake of posting,

35
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,000
Speaker 2: and I really didn't expect it to become what it

36
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:01,400
Speaker 2: is now.

37
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:02,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

38
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're going to get into that in a minute.

39
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 3: There's so many layers in how your story unfolds and

40
00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,360
Speaker 3: just how you got to this point in both your career,

41
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,880
Speaker 3: your activism, your advocacy work. There's so much in this conversation.

42
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,280
Speaker 3: Again when it comes to your amazing work. I've been

43
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,960
Speaker 3: a big fan. But before we start, you kind of

44
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,200
Speaker 3: did already tap into it. Can you tell us how

45
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:27,920
Speaker 3: you entered into the art world.

46
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,520
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a great question. I think, like a lot

47
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,359
Speaker 2: of artists, I always had like a creative tendency when

48
00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:42,440
Speaker 2: I was younger, but I grew up very low income,

49
00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 2: and you know, basic things like food, electricity, even cable

50
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:53,359
Speaker 2: like weren't always available, and so I think having that experience,

51
00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,680
Speaker 2: I was like, I can't do art. That's for people

52
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,360
Speaker 2: who don't have to worry about money, and that's not

53
00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,440
Speaker 2: my circumstance. I started working when I was thirteen fourteen,

54
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,120
Speaker 2: doing babysitting, and then as soon as I could work

55
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,239
Speaker 2: like a job, job, I did, and I was contributing

56
00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:11,000
Speaker 2: towards the household. So I loved art and I would

57
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 2: do it in secret in my room. I remember I

58
00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,400
Speaker 2: saved up a bunch of money to get a used computer.

59
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,359
Speaker 2: I got like a little gateway computer, and I would

60
00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,480
Speaker 2: sit there with the mouse and on Microsoft Paint would

61
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 2: draw and post online. And no one, of course, knew

62
00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 2: about this in my real life. I think eventually I

63
00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,160
Speaker 2: told my little siblings and they were like, that's so cool.

64
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 2: But I didn't take art seriously. And then my senior

65
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:37,680
Speaker 2: year of high school, I was like, okay, I'll take

66
00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,600
Speaker 2: an art class, and even that I was like, I

67
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,720
Speaker 2: don't know, like this is too traditional in the sense

68
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,360
Speaker 2: I its like drawing and pastels, and that's not really

69
00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,640
Speaker 2: up my alley. And so I went to college. I

70
00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,080
Speaker 2: had no idea what I wanted to do. I thought

71
00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 2: I was going to be a literature major. Thought was

72
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 2: going to read books and be one of those people.

73
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:03,720
Speaker 2: And I ended up getting involved in like I say,

74
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 2: digital art. It's like web design, photography, videography. But the

75
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 2: whole focus of my program that I went to was

76
00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 2: the idea of teaching yourself. And so while illustration wasn't

77
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 2: a part of my formal education, it was something that like,

78
00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 2: by my sophomore junior year, I was creating mostly gifts.

79
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,760
Speaker 2: They were like these little I call them jitter gifts,

80
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,360
Speaker 2: where it's like you just draw three or four frames

81
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,120
Speaker 2: and then you put it through a gift maker and

82
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,720
Speaker 2: it just gives that like a little bit of motion.

83
00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,320
Speaker 2: And I did that for two three years, and then

84
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,160
Speaker 2: when I graduated, I was like, I really want to

85
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,000
Speaker 2: do activism. I really want to do art. I don't

86
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,560
Speaker 2: how do those two things go together? And so I

87
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,560
Speaker 2: started off like most people, in a nonprofit job and

88
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,240
Speaker 2: just doing advocacy work. And it was at that job

89
00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 2: actually that I started feeling very frish, fustrated with the

90
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,240
Speaker 2: work that I was doing is very frustrated with how

91
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,000
Speaker 2: things were handled at the nonprofit I worked at, and

92
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,320
Speaker 2: so I started, Uh, I would go home from work

93
00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,320
Speaker 2: and I would just draw because I was just angry.

94
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,400
Speaker 4: And it really I love that you're laughing about that,

95
00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 4: because I know what. I can picture you doing this,

96
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 4: like you're.

97
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,640
Speaker 3: Like, oh, I'm mad, I'm gonna show you something, and

98
00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 3: then like as you're drawing, you're putting all your frustrations

99
00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 3: and that release of just like being a private story

100
00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,719
Speaker 3: though in your own like moment to now like wow,

101
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,599
Speaker 3: but that's such Like I love that just thinking about

102
00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,520
Speaker 3: you coming home steing and you're like eating a bull

103
00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,080
Speaker 3: of cereal or something and just like going at it

104
00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:39,160
Speaker 3: on your art.

105
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:41,679
Speaker 6: It's so good.

106
00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,360
Speaker 3: So you started and you went into that. How did

107
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,159
Speaker 3: that unfold into today?

108
00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well I worked that job I really didn't like

109
00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,000
Speaker 2: for about seven eight months and then I became an

110
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,880
Speaker 2: organizer for an organization called Reproaction and I started as

111
00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,520
Speaker 2: the Virginia organizer and I was just doing mostly organizing

112
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,839
Speaker 2: around abortion access. I would organize we called them positive

113
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,040
Speaker 2: presences outside the abortion clinic that was local to us,

114
00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,560
Speaker 2: and organizing direct actions a lot of frontline activism work,

115
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,000
Speaker 2: and I really loved that. I was involved in planned

116
00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 2: parenthood in college and so like was very much into

117
00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,120
Speaker 2: the direct action side of it. And thankfully with that

118
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,320
Speaker 2: job it was work from home, so I had more

119
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,719
Speaker 2: time to do drawings and art on the side. But

120
00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,800
Speaker 2: those two things really didn't come together for another three

121
00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 2: or four years, Like it was just something I did

122
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,239
Speaker 2: on the side. And then eventually, at that job, eventually

123
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,760
Speaker 2: art became a part of my role at work, and

124
00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,200
Speaker 2: I did that for several years. And reproductive rights, abortion

125
00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,480
Speaker 2: rights are rapelest in my heart. And I think, you know,

126
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,560
Speaker 2: having started as an activist during the Obama era in

127
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,280
Speaker 2: New York, I entered it thinking this is so bad,

128
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 2: this is horrible, this is it can't get worse than this.

129
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,280
Speaker 2: And then of course, you know, now I'm like, I'm

130
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 2: miss Obama, please come back. But like I just entered it,

131
00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,120
Speaker 2: like I didn't realize that, I guess, and I hate

132
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:17,760
Speaker 2: saying this. I didn't realize how good it was at

133
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 2: the time and where we would end up ten years later.

134
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,200
Speaker 5: Look, we are also in that state of.

135
00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 3: Like, even though we know on our end, no political person,

136
00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 3: no person in politics is perfect, and they all have

137
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:34,640
Speaker 3: to be accountable.

138
00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,400
Speaker 5: There's just some level of like, but it wasn't this bad.

139
00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think, you know, I think there

140
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,840
Speaker 2: were a lot of experiences like I remember the Kavanaugh

141
00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 2: confirmation hearings standing outside the Senate building and conservative reporters

142
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,480
Speaker 2: coming up to any woman they could find and just saying,

143
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,840
Speaker 2: were you raped? Were you sexually assaulted? Is that why

144
00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,840
Speaker 2: you're here? And just over like the last four years,

145
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,080
Speaker 2: especially like twenty sixteen through twenty twenty one, it just

146
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 2: was ramping up to the point where like it was

147
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,280
Speaker 2: becoming more and more unsafe. And I think, like I said,

148
00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,000
Speaker 2: I started during the Obama years. By the time Roe

149
00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,240
Speaker 2: fell in what was it, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two,

150
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,080
Speaker 2: I just like I had a mental breakdown, honestly, I

151
00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,240
Speaker 2: think because I had been marching and beating the drum

152
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,720
Speaker 2: of Roe's gonna fall, Roe's gonna fall, and for years

153
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,880
Speaker 2: people telling me I was crazy, people telling me that's

154
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,280
Speaker 2: not gonna happen. And then it happened. And yes there

155
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,920
Speaker 2: were protests, yes there was outrage, But here we are

156
00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,640
Speaker 2: years later, and half the country doesn't have access to repredicative.

157
00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,720
Speaker 3: Rights, right and women are dying, and people with unses

158
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 3: are dying on the daily, and we're not talking about

159
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:50,400
Speaker 3: it enough.

160
00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,840
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, you could do some heavy work.

161
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,320
Speaker 3: And I fill that heaviness with especially in talking about

162
00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 3: like we knew when things were talking like you're not listening.

163
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,280
Speaker 3: We're crying and mourning for the loss of our freedom,

164
00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,319
Speaker 3: and why you think we're being dramatic as we are

165
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:13,440
Speaker 3: being counted to literally die at another person's whims is

166
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:15,800
Speaker 3: really infuriating.

167
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, you know, the decision coming down

168
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,040
Speaker 2: broke my heart. I think what really led to me

169
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,320
Speaker 2: having a breakdown and eventually having to resign from that

170
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,320
Speaker 2: role was very shortly after Roe felt, I had a

171
00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,160
Speaker 2: training with a group of people in Texas and they

172
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,800
Speaker 2: were super excited to, you know, figure out how to

173
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,920
Speaker 2: get people to access care in their state and having

174
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,720
Speaker 2: to sit there and say, well, actually, your state hasn't

175
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,600
Speaker 2: had access since the year before with SB two. Second

176
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,360
Speaker 2: of all, I don't even know if this conversation is legal.

177
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's repercussions for this. No one knows,

178
00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,080
Speaker 2: you know, and it's such a gray area and it's

179
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 2: so much in my workhouse to do a stick uh,

180
00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:06,120
Speaker 2: I think and like making you know, the the implicit explicit,

181
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,040
Speaker 2: and it just I think it was one of those romans.

182
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 2: I was just so intimidated and I was so overwhelmed

183
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,840
Speaker 2: and sad, and you know, I think burnout played a

184
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,840
Speaker 2: large role in that. You know, when you're in the

185
00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 2: fight for so long and you just right feel beat up,

186
00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:25,840
Speaker 2: it's exhausting.

187
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,120
Speaker 3: It's exhausting when you're in the center of chaos in

188
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,720
Speaker 3: a twenty four hour state and it feels like you're losing,

189
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,680
Speaker 3: and that it's not only are you losing, but you're

190
00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:41,320
Speaker 3: losing more support and rational thinking. That's all the different

191
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 3: conversation in itself, But this does bring me back into

192
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,320
Speaker 3: something that I find so.

193
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:48,719
Speaker 5: Heartwarming.

194
00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,120
Speaker 3: I guess it's the best way because a little bit

195
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 3: about you've already mentioned about your name Liberal Jane as

196
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,840
Speaker 3: you first kind of came out in your activism in

197
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,720
Speaker 3: your art, that how you came about that name. And

198
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,720
Speaker 3: we have talked on here a lot about like having

199
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,719
Speaker 3: conservative families and growing out of that and what that

200
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,400
Speaker 3: looks like again, and you doing that and not only

201
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,600
Speaker 3: doing that, but becoming well known and famous for your

202
00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,160
Speaker 3: work with that felt vindicating. I felt like I was

203
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 3: living through you, scariously through you, and being able to

204
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,920
Speaker 3: be like yeah, sticking it to my family, my conservative family,

205
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,199
Speaker 3: who really didn't know that I could do all this

206
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 3: uh and use what they thought was an insult to

207
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:38,559
Speaker 3: me to better publicize the work that I am doing.

208
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,120
Speaker 3: Which so I loved every bit of this, but again

209
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,040
Speaker 3: I'm giving it away too much. So I need you

210
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,280
Speaker 3: to tell our listeners about how this, how your name

211
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:46,840
Speaker 3: came about.

212
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,439
Speaker 2: Absolutely so. I grew up, like I said, very conservative

213
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,760
Speaker 2: and not just like conservative, like we care about money

214
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,080
Speaker 2: like conservative, hateful conservative, and I genuinely believed in those

215
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,880
Speaker 2: things full hearted until I went to college and then

216
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:07,200
Speaker 2: it was like there was just a moment of like, oh,

217
00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:12,360
Speaker 2: I think at the time, I had lost like fifty

218
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,760
Speaker 2: sixty pounds. I had a terrible eating disorder.

219
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:15,920
Speaker 3: And.

220
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,959
Speaker 2: I saw and I think a lot of people who

221
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,640
Speaker 2: have lost weight, dained weight even have experienced this where

222
00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,240
Speaker 2: the world treats you differently, and suddenly I was an

223
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,200
Speaker 2: attractive woman and like the way I was treated and

224
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,040
Speaker 2: the way men spoke to me like shifted. And I

225
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 2: think having that experience really ignited the feminist blame in me.

226
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,960
Speaker 2: I became very involved in the feminist club at my college,

227
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 2: which was called FORCE. It was like feminists Organizing for

228
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,960
Speaker 2: Real Change Everywhere or something like that.

229
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,200
Speaker 3: It's amazing. I love like feminist organizations. I mean, you like,

230
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,520
Speaker 3: liberal organizations have to be an acronym.

231
00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 6: You have an acronym.

232
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah. And so because I had grown up

233
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,120
Speaker 2: debating my dad, and like, you know, up until this point,

234
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 2: we're on the same page. We're still debating, but it's

235
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,720
Speaker 2: starting to devolve in a different way. And so my

236
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,760
Speaker 2: dad would always have these names like Joe Schmo or

237
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,080
Speaker 2: trying to think of other ones, but liberal Jane became mine.

238
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 2: And so when we would be having an argument and

239
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,600
Speaker 2: he I guess maybe didn't have a rebuttal or whatever,

240
00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,440
Speaker 2: he'd say, Okay, liberal Jane, and that was like a

241
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,880
Speaker 2: dismissive way to tell me to stop. And so I

242
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,600
Speaker 2: had that name for two three years. And you know,

243
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,680
Speaker 2: I graduated in twenty sixteen, and so this rhetoric around

244
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,880
Speaker 2: like college kids go to school and they become radicalized,

245
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,840
Speaker 2: like that was very much the position of my dad. Yeah,

246
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,480
Speaker 2: but I, like I said, when I graduated, I really

247
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,720
Speaker 2: wanted to figure out how to combine the art and activism,

248
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,920
Speaker 2: and that just felt like a fitting name because you know,

249
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,920
Speaker 2: Jane Jane Doe is like, you know, just any woman.

250
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,119
Speaker 2: And then of course we have the gene collective gene

251
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,960
Speaker 2: as a as a name holds so much weight already.

252
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is probably why he used it as this

253
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:24,000
Speaker 3: because we do see that I think there's a lot

254
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 3: to be said about again, education and we know the

255
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,760
Speaker 3: conservative far right are really anti education and making sure

256
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,480
Speaker 3: to not do too much. I mean, as in fact,

257
00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,920
Speaker 3: my family have talked about if we go from so

258
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 3: I lived in an Appalachian town and then moving to Atlanta,

259
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,960
Speaker 3: which is where we're based, which is, you know, a

260
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 3: pretty big hub and a pretty big city. They were like, oh,

261
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,600
Speaker 3: she's gonna she's gonna get radicalized. And it's not because

262
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,000
Speaker 3: of like education necessarily, but because of the sins of

263
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,520
Speaker 3: the city type of thing, Yeah, which I find fascinating

264
00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,720
Speaker 3: in itself, but like leaving that type of family where

265
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,000
Speaker 3: you truly did hang on every words, because that type

266
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,760
Speaker 3: of family often least with the men or the head

267
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 3: of the families, you follow suit with the families. As

268
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 3: in fact, like they're talking about again repelling Nineteenth Amendment

269
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,680
Speaker 3: and saying that they just need a household vote, implying

270
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 3: again that same structure of Melie in the family. And

271
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:25,760
Speaker 3: I recently listened to your podcast about trauma and about

272
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 3: kind of leaving that behind, and for me, it felt

273
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,560
Speaker 3: like a legitimate breakup with the church. Mine was specifically

274
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 3: with the church and growing up in the church like that,

275
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 3: being told I need.

276
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,960
Speaker 5: To be grateful for you.

277
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,280
Speaker 3: What did it feel like when you started to break

278
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,320
Speaker 3: away and how did you cope with the trauma of

279
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:43,360
Speaker 3: breaking away.

280
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 5: From such a dark time.

281
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,920
Speaker 3: I know that sounds weird, but like when it comes

282
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,720
Speaker 3: to finding your own thought process understanding, Oh, this is

283
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:53,800
Speaker 3: not what I thought it was.

284
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it was my decision to

285
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 2: sort of contact with my dad. I do have a

286
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,080
Speaker 2: relationship with my mom and siblings. But what ended up

287
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 2: happening was because I'm so I guess open online, I

288
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 2: ended up getting outed to my family and it did

289
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 2: not go over well. And that was the last time

290
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,720
Speaker 2: I spoke to my dad. That was over five years ago.

291
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,600
Speaker 2: Because I was called a liar. I was told that

292
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,400
Speaker 2: I was hiding who I was and that they didn't

293
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 2: believe anything about me anymore, because how could I lie

294
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 2: about such a important part of my life, despite the

295
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 2: fact that I had grown up being told almost on

296
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,560
Speaker 2: a daily basis that if you're gay, we will beat

297
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 2: the gay out of you. And that was anytime my

298
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 2: brother did anything slightly f mean, we picked up a

299
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 2: barbie forget about it, like you know, never mind that

300
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 2: I was the one that he was playing with and

301
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 2: I was a girl. And so honestly, I will say that, like,

302
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 2: between twenty twenty and twenty twenty four was a pretty

303
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,760
Speaker 2: dark period for me. I lost contact with my family.

304
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 2: I of course, the pandemic was happening politics, I had

305
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,920
Speaker 2: to resign from my job, and I ended up leaving

306
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,960
Speaker 2: a long term relationship in June of twenty twenty four.

307
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:21,239
Speaker 2: That was almost eleven year relationship and it's hard to

308
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 2: not feel very lost after that. And I will say

309
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 2: I've definitely had depression and mental health struggles, but I

310
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 2: am so grateful that I had the ability to leave

311
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,600
Speaker 2: situations that weren't serving me. And I think I have

312
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,480
Speaker 2: to give myself a lot of grace because of the

313
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,240
Speaker 2: way I grew up. That in particular, if you grow

314
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 2: up around abuse, you likely find yourself in a similar

315
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,119
Speaker 2: situation and you could be trying as hard as you

316
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,320
Speaker 2: can to avoid it. Like my ex when I met him,

317
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,199
Speaker 2: he was the one person that would argue with my

318
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,000
Speaker 2: dad and he was very liberal, and so I was like, wow,

319
00:17:58,119 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 2: look somebody who can stand up to my dad the

320
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,280
Speaker 2: way I can, not realizing that there were a lot

321
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 2: of similar qualities and that comfort, that familiarity doesn't mean safety,

322
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,520
Speaker 2: and that is such a hard thing to unlearn.

323
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing that Samantha and I talk about a

324
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:21,119
Speaker 1: lot on this show is it's kind of strange to

325
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 1: be very open and very personal about things that maybe

326
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 1: you haven't spoken to your family about, Like who else

327
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:34,280
Speaker 1: are you involving and telling this story? And my mom

328
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,960
Speaker 1: found out I was gay through a book we wrote.

329
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 1: I had never told her. She found out a lot

330
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,240
Speaker 1: of things about me in that book. I wish she

331
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,000
Speaker 1: had not read it. She's such a supportive mom, but

332
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,119
Speaker 1: I was like, why did you read that? But I

333
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,360
Speaker 1: was very lucky in that my family was pretty they

334
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,879
Speaker 1: were liberal, but I still grew up very afraid of

335
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 1: being gay. I'm pretty sure at the seventh grade I

336
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,680
Speaker 1: was like, I think I might be and I would

337
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,959
Speaker 1: pray about it. I would be like, I hope this

338
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 1: isn't true, because I knew, even at a young age,

339
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: I knew what that would mean, and it was not

340
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 1: good for me societally. And it's interesting to me that

341
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,159
Speaker 1: interesting and upsetting that even today I kind of have

342
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,960
Speaker 1: my liberal bubble of friends, so I forget it sometimes,

343
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 1: but then I'll be like confronted with the reality in

344
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 1: our politics or in my very conservative side of the

345
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:37,199
Speaker 1: family that no, this is still coming out is still dangerous,

346
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 1: and it's still political, and it's still really scary. Not

347
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 1: everybody has like a support group or someone to stand

348
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,880
Speaker 1: up for them or protect them, and it just becomes

349
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 1: this whole confrontation about who you are when you're just

350
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,199
Speaker 1: trying to be live your life and be a person.

351
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 1: And I know you've been very very open about your

352
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 1: experience and very vulnerable about it online in these public spaces.

353
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: So how has that been for you? And do you

354
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,880
Speaker 1: have any advice for people, young people perhaps, or anybody

355
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 1: that just is still feeling isolated or scared about this.

356
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,399
Speaker 2: It's a great question, and I'm definitely not an expert

357
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,640
Speaker 2: by any means, but you know, I think just reminding

358
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 2: yourself that life is too short, and I think especially

359
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 2: you get to a point where it's like, I mean

360
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 2: I was married and everything on the surface looked good.

361
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 2: You know, I had a business, we worked together, we

362
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 2: were happy. We had this relationship, and no one knows

363
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 2: what's happening in your life better than you do. You know,

364
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 2: people can give you advice, people can say, oh, you

365
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 2: should stay, you should do whatever. And I certainly have

366
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 2: heard a lot of ice over the last year, good

367
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 2: and bad. But at the end end of the day,

368
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,679
Speaker 2: what your gut is telling you, you have to listen.

369
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 2: And of course our guts sometimes, you know, we have

370
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,679
Speaker 2: to be aware of racism, implicit bias, like all of

371
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 2: these things. Yes, but in my relationship, I was chronically sick,

372
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,680
Speaker 2: chronically had headaches, chronically had stomach pain. When I left,

373
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 2: I went from having migraines at least two three times

374
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,120
Speaker 2: a week two I've had maybe one in the last year.

375
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 2: And you know, your body is trying to speak to you.

376
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 2: I think for a long time, emotions would come up,

377
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 2: and because I was sort of labeled as like this

378
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 2: anxious attachment, it was like, oh, my emotions are wrong,

379
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 2: like and I I really tune them out. You know.

380
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 2: It was like we got to have a good day today,

381
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 2: like let's just put on happy faces and let's let's

382
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 2: do it. And what happened was I stopped knowing myself.

383
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 2: I stopped trusting myself. And when you get to that point,

384
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 2: it's you feel really lost and it is very hard

385
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,679
Speaker 2: to get out of that. I'm so grateful that I

386
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 2: had the space to get out of that. But I

387
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 2: think you know, if anyone listening is feeling vulnerable, and

388
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: perhaps there are people in your life that don't understand

389
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 2: or aren't giving the advice, it's not because they don't

390
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 2: love or care about you. The experience that survivors have,

391
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 2: the emotions, the mental toll it takes on you, it's

392
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: really only something that other survivors understand. I mean I

393
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 2: feel it on a daily basis when I talk about

394
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 2: my life openly. I'll be in an uber or something

395
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 2: and then they'll say, oh, you married or do you

396
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 2: have children, And I'll very openly say I'm divorced. You know,

397
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 2: I'm living here. I lived the last seven eight years

398
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 2: in the DC area. I'm now up in Baltimore. I'm

399
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 2: here because I'm divorced. I'm starting over, and it's very

400
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 2: interesting getting people's reactions people will start with I'm so sorry,

401
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: that's terrible, and it's like, I don't feel like that.

402
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 2: I am so grateful I got out. I'm so grateful

403
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 2: that I'm I'm thirty one and I still have, you know,

404
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: my whole life ahead of me. That's one chapter in

405
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 2: my life. And you know, I think I have to

406
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 2: remind myself on a daily basis, And one of my

407
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 2: affirmations I tell myself is I am making progress every day,

408
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: even if I don't see it. And so, you know,

409
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 2: obviously it's easier some than done leaving a bad situation,

410
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 2: but don't be afraid to be open and honest with

411
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 2: people in your life. It's so hard, and if you

412
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 2: can't get support from people in your life, there are

413
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: advocates that can help. And I know it's so it's

414
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 2: so stigmatizing. Like I was given the domestic violence hotline

415
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 2: before I left my relationship and I was like, no,

416
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 2: that's not me. No, I've never been hit, Like, no,

417
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: that's not it, and I would really I think there's

418
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: stigma around being labeled a victim or survivor whatever language

419
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 2: people want to use. But at the end of the day,

420
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 2: it's not cowardly to ask for help. It's something I

421
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 2: should have done, honestly.

422
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, No, that's there's so much to what you just said,

423
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 7: and you've left so much experiences already in coming to

424
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 7: this point and understanding that you needed to be out

425
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 7: and that you are worth more than what even was.

426
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 3: You thought what you thought wasn't upgrade at that time

427
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 3: because you know it was better than the previous and

428
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 3: then you will understand, oh, I don't need to just

429
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 3: be better, I need the best. I want to be

430
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 3: in the best and whatever that looks like for me

431
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 3: and getting to that place is a huge victory. So

432
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 3: kudos and congratulations and valuing yourself and loving yourself and

433
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 3: those around you to be able to see that not

434
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 3: only is it worth the pain and what MENI would

435
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 3: say would be as you had said, like you felt

436
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 3: like people would imply as a failure. Whether it's the

437
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 3: uber driver being like, oh I'm so sorry, or any

438
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 3: of those things. It's so huge just to see that

439
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 3: you were able to do it like that in itself

440
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 3: is a testament to your strength and the strength of

441
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 3: perseverence alone.

442
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. I think something my grandfather told me

443
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 2: that like has always stuck with me is like everyone

444
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 2: in their life falls on the rests, like at some point,

445
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: like something's going to happen where you just feel like

446
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: you're spinning out and you feel like lost, But it

447
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 2: happens to all of us, and like we need to

448
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 2: lean on each other, even if it's uncomfortable, even if

449
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: it's embarrassing or you know. I think the financial side

450
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: for me is really where a lot of my embarrassment

451
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: is because I left my relationship without all the finances

452
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: have been in my ex's name, and so I left

453
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: with that money and like a lot of debt, a

454
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: lot of stress. I don't regret any of that, right,

455
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 2: but it's also such a privilege to be able to survive.

456
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: But seeing those first couple of months where I was

457
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: like eating one meal a day because it was like

458
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: I can't afford to eat right now. My car last

459
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: year broke down, it was like, Okay, I guess I'm

460
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: a pedestrian. And it's just been like a lot of

461
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 2: just taking things with grace. There have been so many

462
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 2: times where I've just been like I just wish there

463
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 2: was some place I could crash out. I wish there

464
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: was a place I could not pay rent for a

465
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: month and I'm just sleep on someone's couch. I just

466
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: wish that that place existed and it doesn't for me,

467
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: and that that's hard. But if you are in a

468
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 2: position where you have that in your life, definitely lean

469
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: on those resources.

470
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 3: Again, there's so much in your conversation that alone, because

471
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 3: we've talked about we've absolutely had the mini conversation about

472
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: the financial abuse aspect and how severe that is, but

473
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 3: it's so talked about, this not talked about enough, and

474
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 3: how that is so binding, and how again these laws

475
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 3: that are being forced upon us that we're regressing in

476
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 3: a lot of ways through this administration is trying to

477
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 3: put people, specifically women in those marginalized people in those

478
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 3: same binds, knowing that it traps people so for to

479
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: get out in any situation, knowing that eventually you won't

480
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 3: necessarily it won't be wonderful, but it'll get normalized that

481
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 3: you'll be able to understand you can survive this.

482
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 5: And that's such a conversation.

483
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 2: I think that's what's so scary about the whole stay

484
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 2: at home girlfriend trend because like especially that, like you know,

485
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 2: marriage offers you some protections. In my case, it didn't

486
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: it didn't do anything. By the time I actually got

487
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 2: through the divorce process, the money had been gone, and yeah,

488
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: it's like I'm not gonna uh, you need more resources

489
00:27:52,760 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: to get that right. Yeah, it's just scary how I think.

490
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: You know, the previous generation and the generation before, we

491
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 2: fought so hard for these financial rights, the rights to

492
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: have a credit card, to have bank accounts, to open

493
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 2: our own businesses, and for this regression of this is easier.

494
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: It's like, actually, the conversation should be about, you know,

495
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 2: the double shift most women fall into where they're working

496
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: full time jobs and then also doing housekeeping, childcare and

497
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: the mental load. And the solution to that isn't taking

498
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: away agency and control, right, something I wish that I

499
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: had done, and there are so many reasons behind why

500
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: I didn't. If you are in a relationship, definitely have

501
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: savings put aside. There's a great thing online if you

502
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: just search you fund, it'll come up. And the idea

503
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: is like, it's somebody very happy in a relationship, and

504
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: it's just saying in case anything happens, I can say

505
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: you and peace app right. One should have that because

506
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: you know what, even if it's obviously it's twenty twenty five.

507
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: It's not easy to save money, right, but if you

508
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: can and you have the means, just even a little.

509
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: Bit, right, that's amazing. And just for edited purposes, f

510
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 3: you fun, but actually.

511
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 4: Hell, because it's gonna be bleeped out and I don't

512
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 4: know if people will understand what it is. Probably so,

513
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 4: but sometimes of context, you know how like those skits

514
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 4: will just bleep out random words and it's not actually bad,

515
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 4: but it sounds like it could be bad, and you're

516
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 4: gonna just in case, not that we do that, but

517
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, just look.

518
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 3: At that clarification, but that I didn't know about that.

519
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 3: I really want to know where about that specific site.

520
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 3: And we'll have to come back to this because that's

521
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 3: a fascinating conversation.

522
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 5: Some of the things that people may not know.

523
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: Obviously you are an activist, but they don't understand that

524
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: you literally really had been a part of these organizations

525
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 3: and that's how you actually started out, not just the

526
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: art activism. And you've been pretty open about why you

527
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: started in activism, and you talked about some things that

528
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 3: have happened through college as well as why reproductive access

529
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: is so important to you, and can you talk about

530
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 3: how that started up for you?

531
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, I think the right to autonomy, especially

532
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: having experienced financial abuse growing up, definitely plays a role.

533
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: I have always relied on reproductive health care, like whether

534
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: it was birth control, and it was actually like when

535
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: I moved to northern Virginia that I lost my health insurance.

536
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: And the first month I was in Virginia, I had

537
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: this horrible UTI and I had like saved like five

538
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: hundred bucks posts like during college to move. This is

539
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: my big I'm moving out of the house was five

540
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: hundred dollars. This is great. And of course I moved

541
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: down to Virginia, I don't have work. I'm living with

542
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: my boyfriend at the time and his mom and sister,

543
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 2: and I have this horrible UTI and literally exhausted all

544
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: my savings trying to see a provider and trying to

545
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: get the fricking antibiotics. And so I think that experience

546
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: I have such core memories of I end up becoming

547
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: a server California, a piece of kitchen and just standing

548
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: there and trying not to clench my legs because you know,

549
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: my rethroat is on fire at right. It's like I

550
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: got to stand for the next eight hours because I

551
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: need this paycheck. And you know, when we're talking about

552
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: reproductive rights, I think so much of the conversation that's

553
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: missing is that economic justice aspect. I want children. I

554
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: would love to be a mother. That is a dream

555
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: of mine. But when I became pregnant at twenty one,

556
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 2: me and my ex were living we were taking care

557
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: of his father who had had a stroke and was

558
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: struggling with opioid addiction, and so it was a very

559
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: intense household, like we were taking care of him and

560
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: then also dealing with this addiction that we didn't know

561
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: about when he moved in. It wasn't until he moved

562
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: in that we realized that he was still using and

563
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: so it was just like, you know, in retrospect, I

564
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: think I was just so scared. And at the time

565
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: my ex was like abortion and I was like okay,

566
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,959
Speaker 2: and going through that process. I wasn't able to get

567
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: an abortion in Virginia. I had to travel to Maryland

568
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: and just going through the whole process, and you know,

569
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: in a way, I ended up going to the clinic

570
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: with my best friend and that I'm still we're still

571
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: best friends to this day. My ex did not come,

572
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: and I just remember like waking up at six in

573
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: the morning and going to CVS and she was like,

574
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: I'll just buy you whatever snacks you want. We drove

575
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: to the clinic and we got the pills, and then

576
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: you know, she stayed with me through the morning and night.

577
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: And while it was a lot, I don't think Liberal

578
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: Jane would have been a thing without it. Liberal Jane

579
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: was like three or four months old at that point.

580
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: There would be no art, there would be no I

581
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: would still be in my old relationship if I would

582
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: have went through and had that pregnancy. And so even

583
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: though I never envisioned myself like having an abortion, and

584
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: even though I had been like very I had been

585
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: very pro choice and very like pro abortion, but when

586
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: I went through the experience, I think I understood the stigma,

587
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 2: and I think I was at first afraid of that,

588
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: and then eventually it was like, well, I can sit

589
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: here and be afraid, or I can step into my power.

590
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 2: And so, you know, as an organizer, I would always say,

591
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: everyone loves someone who had an abortion. And if you

592
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,239
Speaker 2: don't know anyone who had an abortion, I did, and

593
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: you love me. Yeah, And just like being able to

594
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 2: talk very openly with people about what my experience was.

595
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: You know, I think at this point I felt like

596
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: at the time again I was like, Oh, this is

597
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 2: so rough. I have to go through all these hoops

598
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: to have an abortion, and now my story is one

599
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: of these unfortunately compared to what people are dealing with.

600
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 2: But back then it really drove my activism because I

601
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: I understood the isolation, I understood the stigma. I found

602
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: out I was pregnant at an urgent care. I had

603
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 2: pregnancy acne, which I hope no one has the joy

604
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: of dealing with. You essentially are covered and like they

605
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: look like mosquito bites. They're huge all over your body,

606
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: and they're itchy. And I was covered and I could

607
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 2: not figure out what was wrong with me. And I

608
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: go to the urgent care and I'm expecting them to

609
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: give me some kind of ointment. And they came in

610
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: with two nurses and they closed the door and they

611
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 2: were all standing in the corner, and I just I

612
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: was like, this is it. I have like an STI

613
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: or something.

614
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 5: I have cancer? No, Oh my god, And what a

615
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 5: way to do that.

616
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: They told me, they say, is there any chance you

617
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: might be pregnant? And I said no, and they said,

618
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: well you are pregnant. Oh well I burst into tears.

619
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: And the doctor unfortunately, wasn't like very supportive. She was like,

620
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: who's the father, Like who like can call him? Put

621
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: me on the phone, and I was like, thankfully. The

622
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: nurse he was such a gentleman. He was handing me

623
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: tissues and he was like, can we have a minute,

624
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 2: and so it's just me and him and he was like,

625
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:58,479
Speaker 2: I know you're sad that like this is happening, and yeah,

626
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: I think just being in that condition, I mean it's

627
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: so like I we're talking about something that happened ten

628
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 2: years ago and I can still tell you everything, the details,

629
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 2: who the people were. You know, It's like when you

630
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: feel that isolation and stigma, it really sticks with you.

631
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 5: Yeah that doctor.

632
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, but this is kind of that conversation about

633
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 3: what anti choice looks like and what it means when

634
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 3: we see that as a stigma and how it's treated

635
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 3: and it causes even much more traumatic response. You shouldn't

636
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: have to dealt with any of that to understand, No,

637
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 3: this is not where I can be right now.

638
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 5: I cannot be in this place.

639
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 3: And if I am, if I go follow these things

640
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 3: because I don't have a choice. Then I essentially have

641
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: stopped everything. Like for me, it feels like I'm stopping everything.

642
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 3: And then the doctor may like, let's talk to the man.

643
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 5: You're like, bro, what yeah?

644
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: I mean.

645
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: I worked after I had that experience. A couple of

646
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 2: years later. I became involved with the Blue Ridge Apportion Fund,

647
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: and I would do calls and like, that's the thing

648
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: when people want to talk to me about abortion rights,

649
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: like and want to have this legal debate. I mean

650
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 2: that experience. I spoke to so many people who said,

651
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 2: this isn't what I want to do. But I have

652
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 2: children already. I can't feed them. This is an economic

653
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 2: choice for me. This isn't This isn't do I want

654
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: a baby or not want a baby? I mean, And

655
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: even that doctor she her experience was that she and

656
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: her boyfriend at the time got pregnant, they had the kid,

657
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 2: they got married, they went on to have more kids.

658
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: And that's beautiful, but that's not everyone's life. And that

659
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: wouldn't have been my life if I would have continued.

660
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 5: Right, and she had that choice, like that was her choice,

661
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 5: and that's beautiful. Good on her.

662
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 3: We're glad to see it, but that's not everybody's story,

663
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 3: and that's the understanding of choice.

664
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, I'm okay.

665
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: I was researching for a potential. I thought it was

666
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: gonna be a short episode, and I was not myself

667
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: on the head because I was like, why would you

668
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: think this would ever be a short episode. But MPR

669
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: is doing this whole series on population shift and about

670
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: why no one's having kids anymore. Nobody wants to have

671
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: kids anymore. But it's more it's they can't afford them.

672
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: It's just that's what it is. And a lot of

673
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: people do actually want to have kids and cannot and

674
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: are making a choice about you know, I can't afford

675
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: to have this kid. So that is definitely something is

676
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: we're getting it to a breaking point with that. I think.

677
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if anything will actually happen about it,

678
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: but a breaking point is being reached. And it's interesting

679
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: to me because when I was fifteen, I got sent

680
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: to a gynecologist for migraines, I think, and the kind

681
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: of cologist told me I was pregnant and it was

682
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 1: man and I started crying. I was like, this is

683
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: and he called my dad. He didn't call my mom.

684
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: He called my dad and I was just sobbing in

685
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: the background, and I wasn't pregnant. Apparently sometimes you can

686
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: just get a false pregnancy notice on the little test,

687
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: and uh, it was so traumatic that I still remember

688
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 1: it and I wrote a horror story out. I love horror,

689
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: but I it was. It was devastating. It was that

690
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: was gonna be my whole life. And he called my dad.

691
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: He called my dad.

692
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 6: Oh that stigma around that, yeah, And.

693
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 2: The purpose of calling your dad was candative, like that

694
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 2: was the person that was going to be upset that

695
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: his daughter was having sex. And like, I mean, my

696
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 2: heart breaks for teenagers now because they're getting so much

697
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 2: misinformation and particularly like this demonization of birth control, like

698
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: birth control is bad for mental health? You know what

699
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: also is that for mental health? Pregnancy dating men.

700
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 3: We're about to do an episode about an article I

701
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 3: don't know if you read it, Caitlin, about how it's embarrassed.

702
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 3: Is it embarrassing to have a boyfriend?

703
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 6: Now? Have you read this?

704
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 5: Yeah?

705
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, but yeah, I'm like, deal, that's We're also about

706
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 8: to do an episode I cannot wait to talk about,

707
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 8: but about the influx of media told.

708
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 6: From usually white middle aged mothers who have had a.

709
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: Done and they're tired of dealing with men's bulls. So yeah,

710
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that it's just only so long.

711
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 6: It's exhausting.

712
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 1: All of this is exhausting and it's expensive, and I

713
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: think people are tired of it and been for a while,

714
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: and it's bubbling over. One of the things we did

715
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: want to I guess kind of related I'll talk to

716
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 1: you about is for a long time, art and activism

717
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: have been very closely related. That it is a way

718
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: to get these messages out there, to bring awareness to

719
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: issues that maybe people don't want to engage.

720
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 6: With until unless it's with art.

721
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: Why do you think that art and activism goes so

722
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: well together and that it's so effective.

723
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 2: There is research that shows that when there is art,

724
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: people are more likely to stop than their feeds, and

725
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: they're more likely to stop for a longer period of

726
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: time than they've been normally, And so already you have

727
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 2: people's attention in a different way. I think something that

728
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: I've been thinking all out a lot, and if you

729
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 2: look at my recent work, I've been doing a lot

730
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: more like scenes or portraits of people. Art has the

731
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: ability for us to actually put faces to the issues

732
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 2: and to see who it is. You know, I think

733
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: about so many of the group pieces I do. Like,

734
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 2: you know, when we're talking about disability, we are talking

735
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: about a huge group of people. We are talking about

736
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 2: an umbrella that includes short term disabuilding, long term mental, intellectual, physical,

737
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: Like there's there's so much and in particular with the

738
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 2: disabled community, like anyone can become disabled any time, and

739
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 2: those experiences are all radically different, and so being able

740
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: to sort of pull out those stories and I think,

741
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: you know, I try to do this, like even with

742
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: like I posted about birth control yesterday, It's like birth

743
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: control rocks for preventing pregnancy, but there are also so

744
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: many other uses for it, like and let's not just

745
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: talk about people who need it for health reasons, Yes,

746
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 2: that's super important, but also for trans people who want

747
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: to bleed on their own terms, or maybe they don't

748
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: want to have periods, Like there are so many reasons.

749
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: And when we just blank it, say no birth control,

750
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: it's bad, it's whatever. You know. I think we're seeing

751
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,479
Speaker 2: it with the abortion bands, where there are so many

752
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: people getting caught up, they're having miscarriages and they're not

753
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: getting the care they need because it's no abortions whatsoever.

754
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: We're not We're just being told one narrative when there

755
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: are so many perspectives and there's so many reasons someone

756
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: might need access to something.

757
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 5: That's so much.

758
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 3: And I'm just wondering because again, you've been doing this

759
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 3: for a little while, You've been doing this artwork for

760
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 3: a while, and activism artivism as I know it is

761
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 3: said specific to you, because I've never heard that term

762
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 3: until I resoarched he.

763
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 5: I was like, Oh, that makes sense. I like it.

764
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 3: But do you a remember your first piece that really

765
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 3: got out there and can you tell what it is?

766
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 3: And what is do you have a favorite or is

767
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 3: it just like now they're all my babies.

768
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 6: Ooh.

769
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: I think the piece that did the most it was

770
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 2: in twenty for the George Floyd protests. It was an

771
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 2: image of three people protesting with masks and it was

772
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 2: something like if there's no justice for the people, let

773
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: there be no piece for the government, or something about that.

774
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: And that was I think the first piece that like

775
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: really like popped off and like got a large amount

776
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: of attention. We were able to like fundraise and donate

777
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 2: a bunch of money. I forgot where it's been five years.

778
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: I'm sure I could look it up, but we donated

779
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: it to I believe a bail fund, and just I

780
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: love when the art has its moment on social but

781
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: also can you know, sort of have real life impact

782
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 2: in terms of my favorite piece. Oh, that's such a

783
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 2: good question. For the longest time, I have a piece

784
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: that I love using limited color palettes, as as you

785
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 2: may have noticed by looking at my work, big fan

786
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: of color, and I have a piece it's black and

787
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: white and then it has pops of pink and it

788
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: says fighting oppression despite my depression. And that was made

789
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: in like twenty twenty one, right before I left my job,

790
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: right like after row, like all of these things, like

791
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: it was just I don't know, I look at that

792
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 2: and I see the fighter despite everything. Even at that time,

793
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to keep fighting and I

794
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: don't know. I look at that piece and I used

795
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: to say that in my relationship, my only window to

796
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 2: the world was my social media, that my fans posting online.

797
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: That was genuinely the thing that kept me going. And

798
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: when I left that room, my world became so much bigger.

799
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: And now my world is so rich. I used to

800
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 2: feel like I used to feel like liberal Jane was

801
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 2: the only thing about me, and now I feel like

802
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 2: it's a part of me, but it's not the only thing. Yeah.

803
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 2: Just that that Peace in particular has an illustration of

804
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 2: somebody sitting at their window saying this. It just feels

805
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: like it's foreshadowing what's going to happen.

806
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 5: I mean, you're speaking to a lot of people with

807
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 5: that base, like they understand that the depth of that

808
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 5: to be like, you gotta do this, but we got this. Yeah,

809
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 5: I love it.

810
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: Do you have someone who influenced you at all in

811
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 3: the art world or do you there's someone that you

812
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 3: look up to or Field was a mentor for you.

813
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I was very lucky to come

814
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: up with a number of artivists and so we have

815
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: like a little group chat on Instagram. We all keep

816
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: in touch. And then I'm also a part there's a

817
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 2: collective cult artist for radical Imagination, and that's artists all

818
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: over the world who again want social change through their work.

819
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: I think in terms of artists, I'm a huge fan

820
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 2: of Mirando July. She is a living artist who I

821
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 2: think just deserves so much more attention than she gets,

822
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 2: but she's a big influence. And then in terms of illustration,

823
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:14,959
Speaker 2: I believe it's Laura Callahan. She does gorgeous illustrations and

824
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: I think, like I feel so spiritually connected to her

825
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 2: because when I was going through my divorce, I kept

826
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 2: looking at that photo of Nicole Kidman, you know, with

827
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: her arms up in the air, and Laura had done

828
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 2: an illustration like maybe a week or two before I

829
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 2: got my divorce, and I was like, this is for me,

830
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 2: Like Laura is reading my mind. It's for me. And

831
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 2: I love her work her uh, the way she does expressions,

832
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 2: and she draws mostly women as well, and the expressions

833
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: are just amazing.

834
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 6: Yes, excited to look that up.

835
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 1: And So you've been mentioning social media and Instagram these

836
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 1: are the ways that you've got your art out there

837
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: and really have this community. What over the years, have

838
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: you seen any changes when it comes to social media

839
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: platforms and your work.

840
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I mean I think the fall of Twitter

841
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: is its own thing. I feel like I get my

842
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 2: two biggest platforms are Instagram and Facebook, which is lots

843
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 2: of fun. Facebook in particular, I would say at this

844
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 2: point they conservatives will do these like raids where they

845
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: will storm a post they don't agree with, and honestly,

846
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 2: that happens probably once or twice a week at least,

847
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: And like, you know, the more I post, the more

848
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 2: heat I get. And I'm grateful I have a moderator,

849
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 2: but it's definitely at least still, especially when it starts

850
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: leaking into like my personal life, like people will send

851
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: me messages on my personal Facebook page, or you know,

852
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 2: just trying to intimidate me, or I've heard you know,

853
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 2: oh your artists, so all these things to try to

854
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: get me to stop. I'm not stopping. Don't worry. You know,

855
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 2: if my family couldn't stop me from making art, I

856
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: don't think a faceless name online will. But there's definitely

857
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 2: been a shift, and I think I have felt on

858
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: Instagram it does feel like there's less of a community

859
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 2: on there, and perhaps that's like the shift to reels,

860
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: and I'm so resistant to that. I don't want I

861
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: just I don't know. I refuse to make video context

862
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 2: that's not my medium, and so like it does stink

863
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 2: to feel like I'm being punished by the algorithm for that,

864
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 2: And I know a lot of artists are feeling that,

865
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 2: But you know, I think at this point in twenty

866
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 2: twenty five, the people like I have a Patreon that

867
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 2: people can join for free, and that has more of community,

868
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: I think, even than Instagram does at times.

869
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard that about Patreon because Patreon is kind

870
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: of a thing you have to seek out as opposed

871
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: to Instagram. Kind of feels like something that at one

872
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: time we all just had. Yeah, so that makes sense.

873
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: Also related to this, we have talked a lot on

874
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 1: this show about censorship and how that can look on

875
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: social media. Has that been something that you've had to

876
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 1: deal with. Has that impacted you at all?

877
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 2: Absolutely? It's very hard to talk about abortion online. But

878
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 2: I have gotten content removed. I used to work on

879
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 2: self manage abortion when I worked in nonprofit, and so

880
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 2: that is sharing the World Health Organization's protocol for how

881
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: somebody can use the pills on their own. I've gotten

882
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: in trouble a handful of times posting that I've actually had.

883
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: I have a piece that says, if you want to

884
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 2: ban abortions, we'll learn to do them ourselves. I can't

885
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 2: post that anywhere. Anytime I post it, it's deleted for

886
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 2: inciting violence. Despite what we are literally referencing the World

887
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 2: Health Organizations protocols. So there's that. I have worked with

888
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: a lot of repro orcs on the censorship aspect, and

889
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 2: anytime I do a brand deal where it's like sex

890
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 2: toys or anything like that, like a lot of them

891
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 2: like will send you like a one pager of like,

892
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 2: oh you want to say sex, here, here's how you

893
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: have to spell it, and like here are the emojis

894
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: to you so we can get around the algorithm. And

895
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 2: it's people get very frustrated with me, especially when in

896
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:49,800
Speaker 2: the art the word sex is censored. But I've gotten

897
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: in trouble for posting. I have a piece that says

898
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,959
Speaker 2: sex edge should not have shame or stigma or something

899
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 2: like that, and because it has the word sex, we're

900
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 2: talking about sex ed right. Because it has the word sex,

901
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: it's inappropriate and it's like, well, how do we talk

902
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: about it?

903
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:07,879
Speaker 5: Yeah.

904
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 3: We actually had an episode with friend of the show Bridget,

905
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 3: and she came specifically talking about reproductive organizations being banned

906
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 3: and having their entire accounts taken off, like them having

907
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 3: hundreds of thousands of followers and all of a sudden

908
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 3: losing all of that. Even organizations and platforms saying yeah,

909
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:26,879
Speaker 3: that was kind of a mistake because you really didn't

910
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,280
Speaker 3: violate that, because like, yeah, how is that inciting violence?

911
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 3: If you were saying no, this is how you do

912
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 3: this from an actual established organization that teaches health around

913
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 3: the world, Like what is going on? How is that violent?

914
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 3: And then not being able to come back and repel

915
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 3: any of those types of accounts or a specific posts,

916
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 3: and the fact that it is getting harder and harder

917
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 3: and they're having less accountability in their own standards. That's

918
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 3: got to be so terrifying. And then also having to

919
00:52:57,920 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 3: deal with your fans and be like, no, I'm not

920
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to make sure I can still do.

921
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 2: This, trying to get you the information, like I'm you know,

922
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 2: I did a series with how to use the abortion

923
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 2: pilllar in an organization international. We did a series on digital

924
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 2: censorship of repro and people got really upset with me,

925
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 2: and I was like, well, these are guides, you know.

926
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 2: One of them was what to do if you have

927
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 2: to keep your abortion a secret, and like, you know,

928
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 2: the digital side of it, and that information is so important,

929
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 2: but yeah, the word abortion is censored throughout the entire

930
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 2: post and I I get that. It's frustrating. I'm frustrated because,

931
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 2: you know, like I just want to I don't. I

932
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 2: don't want to write sex as se c Q, like

933
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 2: I aged, you know something. I see posts out in

934
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 2: the wild from repro orgs and I'm like, what what

935
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 2: are you saying? And then I have to like say

936
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,439
Speaker 2: it out loud to be like, oh, that's the word.

937
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: And it's like because we have to be so creative.

938
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 3: Right right, Like people are using grape instead of rape

939
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 3: on like videos and everybody gets like, well, I can't

940
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 3: you just say it? You're like no, really, they can't

941
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 3: say it, or this video won't exist or those posts

942
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:09,240
Speaker 3: won't exist.

943
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 2: And it bleeds into real life. I used to have TikTok.

944
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 2: I deleted it, but I found myself saying unlived and

945
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, no, no, no, no, that's not right.

946
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 3: And this is a twofold conversation. It's like they're doing

947
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 3: the conservative I guess far right are doing exactly what

948
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 3: they want to do, which makes it unseerious. It feels

949
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 3: like it's no longer educational but a mimic like a

950
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,320
Speaker 3: meme or something, and it's like, no, but this is

951
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 3: the only way you can do it. They have purposely

952
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 3: done this so it won't be taken seriously, or that

953
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 3: people are just frustrated and don't care about the actual

954
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,280
Speaker 3: information in here, which.

955
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 5: Is so scary and so faking smart. I hate bad

956
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 5: people are smart.

957
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. Lobotomies for all billionaire men.

958
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 3: Thank you, I said behind that went too. So obviously

959
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 3: you your art is activism and advocacy, but again you

960
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 3: are a boots on the ground activist as well. Can

961
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 3: you talk about some of the work you have done

962
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,399
Speaker 3: in the past and organizations that you've been working with

963
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 3: or have worked with as of late.

964
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I mentioned, because of burnout, I think I

965
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 2: took a step back from a lot of things. Still

966
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: very involved in the repro and abortion space, but I

967
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 2: think personally, like the boundary for me is I don't

968
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 2: necessarily do direct support anymore like I used to do

969
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 2: the phone calls for the Abortion Fund. Then, like I think,

970
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 2: you know, being empathetic is a great quality, but also

971
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 2: knowing that the toll it takes on you and being

972
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 2: able to set those personal boundaries is really good. So

973
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 2: a lot of what I've been doing is behind the scenes.

974
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,800
Speaker 2: A lot of supportive, you know, creating art for nonprofits,

975
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 2: sort of doing background work. And so I think the

976
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 2: biggest areas a focus, especially this year. Of course, abortion

977
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 2: rights for reproductive rights I think will always be up there,

978
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 2: just because my experience, but also LGBTQ liberation, especially trans

979
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 2: rights right now, and really putting a face to trans people.

980
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 2: And really, you know, I think I've been thinking a

981
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 2: lot about like how do we expand this definition of

982
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 2: gender firming care to be like, you know, when I

983
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 2: get my hair done, that's gender firming care. When I

984
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 2: get my nails done. You know, it's like, let's let's

985
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,439
Speaker 2: open up this conversation more. And then, of course, something

986
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 2: that's like always been very close to my heart is

987
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 2: just what's happening with immigrants right now and ICE. I

988
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,720
Speaker 2: live here in Baltimore and we're essentially preparing for ICE

989
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 2: in the next several weeks. Donald Trump, of course, you know,

990
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 2: named a handful of US cities that are beyond and

991
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 2: you know, criminal and Baltimore was up there, and it's

992
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: very strange living here and I live in the community

993
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: that's mostly immigrants and just seeing in the day to

994
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 2: day it's just such a vibrant community and the fact

995
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 2: that we're being threatened with militarization when these are people

996
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: that are just living their lives. That to me is

997
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 2: just awful. I feel like we're raising the next generation

998
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 2: of super villains by like yanking parents away from kids,

999
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 2: and just like I I just, yeah, my heart breaks

1000
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 2: thinking about like the generational toll of what we've been

1001
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: doing over the last five ten years. I mean, I'm

1002
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 2: beyond that, but especially in this latest iteration.

1003
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 3: I mean definitely we're living in a part of that

1004
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 3: generational toll, which is the nightmare that we're like what

1005
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 3: like everybody's been warning about and now we're making it

1006
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 3: ten times worse with what is happening today. And I

1007
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 3: have to get kudos to you, like learning to step

1008
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 3: away when everything in you wants to be like.

1009
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 5: No, but I have to do this. No one is

1010
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 5: going to do this. I have to do this.

1011
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 3: My background is in social work, and I worked as

1012
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 3: a case manager for many situations, and the burnout is legitimate,

1013
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 3: Like you literally waste the way, whether it's in sickness,

1014
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 3: whether it's mental health, like or physical sickness and mental

1015
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 3: health stuff, like there's so much, only so much that

1016
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 3: you can give until you fall apart and you can't

1017
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 3: give to anything. And so having the fortitude and understanding

1018
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 3: and listening to your body, listening to your mental health

1019
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 3: is a strength in itself. And I think we've said

1020
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 3: this to our listeners repeatedly. As a person who constantly

1021
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 3: growing up was told I need to be grateful and

1022
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 3: give back. That's the only way that I can truly

1023
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 3: be thankful to the white saviors of my life, you know, like,

1024
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 3: even though they may not like require it of me,

1025
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 3: the teachings that I have is understand that that's what

1026
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 3: I was supposed to be doing, but realize that that

1027
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 3: is actually another toxic part of a patriarchal system with

1028
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 3: white supremacy that really is a way to get rid

1029
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 3: of us. And so for you to do that, I

1030
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 3: think it needs to be complimented and it needs to

1031
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 3: be uplifted, Like people need to know it is okay,

1032
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 3: and it is better for you to take that time

1033
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 3: so you can come back round and not completely give out.

1034
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, I just thank you, first of all. I

1035
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 2: do so appreciate that. You know, I think I've been

1036
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 2: seeing over the last five ten years, especially in nonprofit

1037
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 2: there's this push to have the people with the lived

1038
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 2: experience leading, which is fantastic. I am super excited about them.

1039
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: I'm excited to see people who have actually experienced what

1040
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 2: we are talking about leading. But I think the part

1041
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,919
Speaker 2: of it that we are still missing is that care

1042
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 2: and burnout prevention. Like I think it's like, we have

1043
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 2: the impacted person, but we're not thinking about are we

1044
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 2: taking care of them mentally spiritually? Like is there you know,

1045
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 2: those of the nonprofit have health insurance so they can

1046
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 2: see a therapist, right, and yeah, I think you know,

1047
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 2: on the surface, it's like, yeah, this is great, but

1048
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 2: we're I've seen so many of the people I started

1049
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 2: in nonprofit with are in the same boat of burnout.

1050
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 2: They are now doing their own thing or they switch field.

1051
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 2: And it's not because they don't care, it's just you

1052
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 2: care too much.

1053
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, which brings me to the next question that I

1054
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: always feel guilty asking people because you're doing so much already,

1055
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 1: But is there anything that you have on the horizon

1056
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 1: that you're really excited about or.

1057
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 6: That you would like to shout out?

1058
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I have been working on a graphic novel for

1059
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 2: several years. It is about half written at this point,

1060
01:00:57,840 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 2: and it's something I did take break from when I

1061
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 2: was going through life, but I've picked it up in

1062
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 2: the last several months, and I'm excited about that because

1063
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 2: unlike social media, where I only get maybe six to

1064
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 2: seven seconds of someone's attention, a book is like sit

1065
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 2: down with me and let's actually sit and like put

1066
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 2: image to words. And I'm very excited it has to

1067
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 2: do essentially, it has a lot to do with intergenerational drama,

1068
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 2: and in particular the way that conservatism affects small towns

1069
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 2: and the way that like anti trans rhetoric plays out

1070
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: in school districts. And how you know this is, I mean,

1071
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:46,439
Speaker 2: I think about the Moms for Liberty and stuff and

1072
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 2: parental rights and that whole movement and just I don't

1073
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 2: want to say humanizing it, but exploring it and also

1074
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 2: giving people the tools to fight back against staff.

1075
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 3: Oh well, you're speaking to at heart, so that makes

1076
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 3: you having a plan the minute you publish, please contact

1077
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 3: us so we can have you on the show. We

1078
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 3: need to be at least number two on your list

1079
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 3: of shows to be on.

1080
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 2: I'm just kidding, no number one, number one. You guys

1081
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 2: got me on the on the ground floor. I'm only

1082
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 2: going up from here, so I will not forget.

1083
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 3: Y'all, okay, because we love graphic novels up here, and

1084
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 3: you're talking our language like you are a part of

1085
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 3: our community. In this conversation that you're saying are like

1086
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 3: speaking to our heart. You must be back for this.

1087
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 3: We claim you.

1088
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 6: That's so cool, that's exciting.

1089
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: Yes, please please come back on to talk about that.

1090
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: We would love to do it. But this conversation has

1091
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: been so lovely. We would have you back anytime. Thank

1092
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: you for being here. How can the good listeners find you?

1093
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 2: I am Liberal Jane across social media. I am on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,

1094
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 2: Blue Sky, threads, tumbler, and maybe TikTok.

1095
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 5: I got your TikTok.

1096
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 6: Tumbler. Yes, I love this, okay all the way back.

1097
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for

1098
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 1: being here, and definitely come back. Definitely come back when

1099
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: the graphic novel comes out.

1100
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 6: That sounds amazing.

1101
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 5: Well do.

1102
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 2: Thank you both so much for having me. It's been

1103
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 2: so fun.

1104
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: And listeners, if you would like to contact us, you

1105
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: can or email us hello at stuff Whenever Told You

1106
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Blue Sky, at

1107
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff

1108
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: I Never Told You or else on YouTube. We have

1109
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: new merchandise at Compureau and we have the book you

1110
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: can get wherever you get here. Thanks as always too,

1111
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 1: our super producer Ristina, our executive puer My.

1112
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 6: And your contributor Joey.

1113
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for

1114
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: Listening Stuff and Never Told You Reflection of by Heart

1115
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 1: Radio for our podcast from My Heart Radio, you can

1116
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 1: check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast or if

1117
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,