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Speaker 1: Adrian Carter is an internationally recognized body language expert, consumer

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Speaker 1: psychology specialist, and corporate trainer specializing in emotional, intelligent facial expressions,

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Speaker 1: and nonverbal communication. With over twenty years of experience, Adrian

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Speaker 1: has worked with companies such as American Express, Coca Cola, Goldman, Sachs,

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Speaker 1: and many more. She also works with security professionals and

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Speaker 1: corporate leaders to help them decode emotions, enhance interpersonal communication,

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Speaker 1: and create impactful brand key visuals.

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Speaker 2: Hi Adrian, Hello, thank you for inviting me.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for being here.

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Speaker 1: I was telling you before the podcast, I am fascinated

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Speaker 1: by you. I went on these deep dives of all

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Speaker 1: the different kinds of work you do, and one of

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Speaker 1: the things that was coming up for me initially was

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Speaker 1: how do you even train to do something like this.

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Speaker 2: I'll give you the short answer.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: I had my children quite young, and I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to go back to the nine to five. I wanted

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Speaker 2: a bit more flexibility. So if someone suggested I go

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Speaker 2: into market research, I was like, oh, I've never even

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Speaker 2: heard of market research twenty odd years ago, and it

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Speaker 2: was absolutely fascinating. But I quickly realized that actually market

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Speaker 2: research wasn't as good at that time as it could be.

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Speaker 2: So I traimed to be a counselor and psychotherapist. So

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Speaker 2: that's where the interest that really went further, understanding what

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Speaker 2: people do, why they do it, and you know, how

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Speaker 2: their brains work. And then I came across faces and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, this is really interesting. People pull faces.

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Speaker 2: They say one thing, but their face says something different.

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Speaker 2: So fifteen years ago I went to America and trained

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Speaker 2: in California at the UC of California with doctor Erica

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Speaker 2: Rosenberg on facial expressions. How understanding the muscle movements of

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Speaker 2: the face create these expressions which are linked to emotions.

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Speaker 2: And the research world that I was still working, even

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Speaker 2: though I trained as a counter and psychotherapist, was all

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Speaker 2: about shopper behavior, how people buy, how people don't buy,

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Speaker 2: you know, all about their behavior, so it all became

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Speaker 2: very very interesting. So then I trained in body language

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Speaker 2: about thirteen years ago and it's just still grown from there.

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Speaker 2: So I left my general manager role in the research

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Speaker 2: business ten years ago and I've just really focused everything

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Speaker 2: on faces, body language and how do we use that

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Speaker 2: for the greater good? If you like earn money too

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Speaker 2: from it's you know, I'm not a charity.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to do anything for free.

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Speaker 2: No, no, So you know, how do we commercial like that?

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Speaker 2: How do we optimize our own body language? How can

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Speaker 2: teams perform better by understanding facial expressions and body language?

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Speaker 2: But my background was also consumer psychology, so why people

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Speaker 2: do what they do? So it's it's kind of layers

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Speaker 2: upon layers upon layers that's led me to where I

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Speaker 2: am today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you say, we can't not communicate. So even when

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Speaker 1: we're not using words, we're communicating. How much of a

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Speaker 1: percentage difference I don't know if you know the exact percentage,

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Speaker 1: but how much are we actually communicating with our bodies

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Speaker 1: and our faces versus our words?

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Speaker 2: So there is a stat that's often used and often

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Speaker 2: misquoted actually from Albert Morabian, Professor Albert Morabian that he said,

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Speaker 2: when're talking about thoughts of feelings, that our body language

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Speaker 2: is fifty five percent of the communication. Now, that's not

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Speaker 2: true for every interaction. You know, if I was going

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Speaker 2: to give you directions now to leave your room wherever

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Speaker 2: you are, to go downstairs or to go upstairs, you know,

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Speaker 2: you'd need more than my body language. My words would

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Speaker 2: be super super important. Right, But that stat where I

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Speaker 2: do think it is useful. It is to consider more

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Speaker 2: than the words. Words are useful, But in some contexts

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Speaker 2: body language, tone of voice, facial expressions actually can sometimes

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Speaker 2: outweigh the words because we do say things nonverbally that

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Speaker 2: doesn't always match our words.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you're almost I think I heard you says

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Speaker 1: where you're almost muting half of the conversation if you're

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Speaker 1: not paying attention to the body language.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, that exactly that.

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Speaker 1: Well, how often in that studying of the body language

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Speaker 1: and starting to understand human psychology, I love we also

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Speaker 1: on the podcast are always talking about why we do

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Speaker 1: what we do, you know, what's driving us and all

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Speaker 1: of that stuff. So how often are our emotions just

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Speaker 1: vastly different from what our face and body are communicating.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the time. And I believe and from

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Speaker 2: all my research and studying I've done, that emotions drive

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Speaker 2: most of our behavior. You know, even when you go

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Speaker 2: to the supermarket to buy something as innocuous as tea,

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Speaker 2: there could be some massive emotions that are driving that behavior.

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Speaker 2: Not not for everybody obviously, but We all do things

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Speaker 2: because we either like them or don't like them, or

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Speaker 2: don't do things because we don't like them. So these emotions,

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Speaker 2: I don't think we pay enough attention to how our

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Speaker 2: internal emotions are driving our external behavior.

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Speaker 1: Say that again, how much our internal emotions are driving

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Speaker 1: our external behavior. So we're just not even paying attention.

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Speaker 2: To that most of the time. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: deal a lot with teams, some functional, some very dysfunctional,

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Speaker 2: and often underneath the function and the dysfunction are emotions.

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Speaker 2: When people are emotionally well, they function well and make

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Speaker 2: more of an effort to function well with other people.

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Speaker 2: When emotions are taking over and they're not so useful

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Speaker 2: and dysfunctional teams are happening, there's often emotions that are

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Speaker 2: driving that dysfunction. So finding out what the emotions are

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Speaker 2: that are driving the behavior is the key really to

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Speaker 2: helping them to optimize what's really going on for themselves.

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Speaker 2: So understanding body language, understanding facial expressions, but also how

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Speaker 2: they really feel inside, because that's what drives our behavior.

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Speaker 1: Isn't there a link between emotional and intelligent and understanding

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Speaker 1: kind of what you're talking about with the body language,

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Speaker 1: the facial expressions.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk about that connection?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So I was an emotional intelligence the first one

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Speaker 2: Global Emotional Intelligence a conference about three or four weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: And when we are emotionally well, you know, we handle

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Speaker 2: problems much better when we are emotionally not well. And

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Speaker 2: oftentimes people don't even realize they're emotionally not well, so

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Speaker 2: they don't even realize that actually they're doing things and

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Speaker 2: acting in certain ways that it's not useful to them. Now,

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Speaker 2: I believe all emotions are neither good neither bad, but

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Speaker 2: they are all a message for us. You know, if

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Speaker 2: you're feeling angry, that generally means in some way, you're

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Speaker 2: feeling threatened or something is in your way. If you're

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Speaker 2: feeling sad, that's always about loss, and it could be

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Speaker 2: a person, a pen, or a pet. You know, there's

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Speaker 2: loss somewhere, or even loss of identity or loss of role,

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Speaker 2: whatever it could be. So understanding the emotion that are

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Speaker 2: driving our behavior and driving other people's behaviors helps us

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Speaker 2: have empathy and helps us look at the situation sometimes differently.

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Speaker 2: So a team I was working with a couple of

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Speaker 2: months ago, there was a high level of uncertainty in

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Speaker 2: the team due to the leadership of the team. So

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Speaker 2: their behaviors were very much like trying to control, trying

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Speaker 2: to control each other, trying to control lots of different

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Speaker 2: aspects of the team, and actually all it was causing

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Speaker 2: was massive dysfunction. But actually, when you understand that uncertainty

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Speaker 2: is at the root of this, how do we give

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Speaker 2: control back then? How do we reassure how do we

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Speaker 2: have leadership that actually helps people feel more certain because

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Speaker 2: once they get that, they can emotionally function well and

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Speaker 2: can emotionally function well with each other. So I've made

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Speaker 2: it sound very simple, and it's not always that simple.

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Speaker 2: But understanding emotions is that is the first part of

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Speaker 2: any team analysis or personal analysis that I do, because

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Speaker 2: once we know what the emotion is, then we can

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Speaker 2: also understand is it being useful? Is it not being useful?

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Speaker 2: And you know, fear is a useful emotion. It keeps

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Speaker 2: us safe from danger. However, in some situations fear isn't

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Speaker 2: so useful. You know, fear is driving your behavior at

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Speaker 2: work or in your relationship, then you're going to try

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Speaker 2: and control the other person or people that's not useful.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just dawning on me as I was

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Speaker 1: listening to you give that description as you kept saying

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Speaker 1: personal awareness or and I think I just assumed when

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Speaker 1: I was prepping for this podcast, Oh, this will help

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Speaker 1: us to understand other people. But how much of this

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Speaker 1: can we use on ourselves because a lot of times

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Speaker 1: are we feeling something inside saying something different, but then

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Speaker 1: our movements, our actions, our facial expressions are communicating something

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Speaker 1: completely separate from that.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, we often edit our words editor we're saying,

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Speaker 2: edit how we're really feeling, and sometimes we don't even

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Speaker 2: know how we're feeling. So everyone thinks body language is

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Speaker 2: all about how do I read other people? But where

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Speaker 2: it's really useful is how do I read myself? How

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Speaker 2: do I understand myself better? You know, sometimes when I'm

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Speaker 2: having a bit of an off day and I feel

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Speaker 2: a bit rubbish, I'll go to the mirror and have

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Speaker 2: a look because I think I don't really know what's

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Speaker 2: wrong with me today, but I know I don't feel

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Speaker 2: great going out, a look in the mirror and I

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Speaker 2: do this, you know, and look like, oh, okay, I

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Speaker 2: can see some sadness or I can see some fear

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Speaker 2: on my facial expression. Okay, So because I know what

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Speaker 2: that looks like and what that means. I can adjust,

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Speaker 2: I can adapt or you know, do something different rather

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Speaker 2: than okay, you know, today might be feeling sad. It's

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Speaker 2: an anniversary of I loved one's death or something. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so today I'm just going to be kind to myself

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Speaker 2: and I'm allowed to feel sad. I'm allowed to have

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Speaker 2: that emotion. Whereas if you're trying to fight it all

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Speaker 2: the time because I'm not really sure what it is

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Speaker 2: or why you're feeling so rubbish, then that's not being

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Speaker 2: very kind to yourself, and it's not being aware of

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Speaker 2: what's going on for you. And sometimes it's okay to

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Speaker 2: be sad, it's okay to you know, just allow the

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Speaker 2: feelings to be there because they're given us a message,

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Speaker 2: and that message is often really important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really an interesting thought to think about. If

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Speaker 1: we're not tapped into our own emotions but also our

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Speaker 1: own body language and what our bodies are communicating, how

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Speaker 1: disconnected we actually may be from what's going on in reality.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, that is absolutely okay.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mentioned that I have to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about how to use this in dating and relationships because

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Speaker 1: I know my listeners that that is going to be

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Speaker 1: the first thing they're thinking about. I heard you in

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Speaker 1: another interview say that poker players are typically the best

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Speaker 1: at controlling their body movements or body language, which makes

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Speaker 1: total sense. Obviously they're trying not to give away their hand.

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Speaker 1: But immediately when you said that, I thought, what about

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Speaker 1: sociopaths or psychopaths, or serial killers, or what about a

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Speaker 1: lot of my ex boyfriends. That's kind of the train

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Speaker 1: of thought I had. So can you talk to that

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Speaker 1: a little bit about who is control roll in their

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Speaker 1: body language in a way because they do have the awareness,

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Speaker 1: or maybe they're lying or they're up to something, And

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Speaker 1: then we'll get into maybe a little bit how to

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Speaker 1: read that.

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Speaker 2: So there are a number of types, and you've mentioned

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Speaker 2: a few different types of people that will hide their

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Speaker 2: body language or not even so much hide like a

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Speaker 2: psychopath or a sociopath. They don't actually feel the feelings,

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Speaker 2: so they're not hiding. There's nothing going on.

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Speaker 3: I don't have it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't have it. But then there are a

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Speaker 2: group of people who do hide how they feel. Now

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Speaker 2: that the reason they hide how they feel could be

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Speaker 2: for lots of different reasons. I often find when I

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Speaker 2: come across an adult who is quite shut down emotionally,

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Speaker 2: don't reveal much. I try to understand where that's coming from.

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Speaker 2: And often it's coming from a time when they've not

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Speaker 2: felt safe to show how they really feel. So it

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Speaker 2: could be as a child, it could be as an adult.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not all about childhood, but oftentimes it's

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Speaker 2: been from a time where they've not felt safe to

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Speaker 2: show their emotions, so they shut down, and that becomes

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Speaker 2: learned behavior. Then people in the military, people in security industry,

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Speaker 2: they're often quite shut down. You often don't get much

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Speaker 2: emotional response. It's not true of all of them. This

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Speaker 2: is I'm just generalizing a little bit verre but it's

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Speaker 2: because they've had to keep their emotions in check to

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Speaker 2: do the things they've they've done. You know, from a

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Speaker 2: security perspective, they've shut down their emotions, and then they're

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Speaker 2: expected to go home and be all fuzzy and warm

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Speaker 2: and emotional. It's not that easy to do. You know,

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Speaker 2: people can't do it within the security industry. I do

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Speaker 2: security aspect, but also from a personal aspect. You know,

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Speaker 2: some of these men they go home and their wives

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Speaker 2: expect them to be emotionally aware. Well, that's really difficult

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Speaker 2: because all day at work they've been emotionally shut down

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Speaker 2: to do the things they need to do for security.

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Speaker 2: And other times, children that have been abused either mentally,

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Speaker 2: physically sexually, they often shut down how they feel too,

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Speaker 2: because it's not safe for them to show how they feel,

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Speaker 2: and that can carry on into adulthood and affects all

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Speaker 2: relations you know, relationships. So there's lots of different reasons

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Speaker 2: why people may be shut down, not all sinister. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they're just not even aware that actually it's a good

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Speaker 2: thing to show emotions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's sort of The psychology background that you have

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Speaker 1: is so fascinating with all of this to be able

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Speaker 1: to look into Wait, okay, they're not showing emotions of

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Speaker 1: what's actually happening. So how do we decipher between a

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Speaker 1: person that is like not feeling it at all and

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Speaker 1: then a person who's maybe repressed. How do we decipher

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Speaker 1: between a person that is like not feeling it at

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Speaker 1: all and then a person who's maybe repressed or has

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Speaker 1: been taught to not express emotion or even like in codependency.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about my job a little bit, and

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Speaker 1: when you work for celebrities as I do. Sometimes, like

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Speaker 1: you can't really have emotions yourself. You know, their world

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Speaker 1: is the world you're showing up for, and so you

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Speaker 1: kind of have to not be a human. So like,

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Speaker 1: how do we differentiate between the different types of people

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Speaker 1: or why there might not be either feeling emersions or

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Speaker 1: just showing them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So for me, it's all about questions and all

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Speaker 2: of body language and understand other people. It's all about questions.

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Speaker 2: How I use the body language and facial expression stuff

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Speaker 2: is to ask really good questions. As people say, did

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Speaker 2: you just read my mind? Like, absolutely not. I cannot

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Speaker 2: read anybody's mind. However, your body language and your facial

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Speaker 2: expressions will give me a really good clue as to

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Speaker 2: what might be going on for you, and I use

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Speaker 2: that clue with questions to try and understand your point

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Speaker 2: of view. If I assume anything, you know, if I

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Speaker 2: always assume that arms crossed is defensive, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be wrong probably seventy five p cent at the time,

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Speaker 2: because a lot of people just sit with their arms

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Speaker 2: crossed just because it's really comfortable. I do it myself.

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Speaker 2: So it's about asking really good questions. If I was

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Speaker 2: in an interaction and suddenly somebody went and their face changed,

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Speaker 2: and you know you hear that. Okay, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: ask you a question like, oh, what happened? Just then

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Speaker 2: you feel like I feel like you shut down. But however,

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Speaker 2: if someone started an interaction and they just cross their

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Speaker 2: arms and nothing else changes, I'm just going to assume

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Speaker 2: it's really comfortable for them, or I may even ask

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Speaker 2: them a question, just say everything okay with you? So

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Speaker 2: questions I think are people's best friend when it comes

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Speaker 2: to this kind of work.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting because even if you ask someone, that

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Speaker 1: goes back to emotional intelligence because if they don't know,

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Speaker 1: and they don't even realize they're doing something, because I

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Speaker 1: think that's probably very subconscious for us, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, A lot of the times it is. And I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't ask questions for everything. I would only ask a

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Speaker 2: question when the interaction I need to really clarify, okay,

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Speaker 2: I need to really understand what's going on for the person.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't you know. I was delivering workshops last week

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Speaker 2: in Switzerland, and every time someone does a movement, I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to ask them a question, right, I'm just

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Speaker 2: gonna carry on. If I see some a cluster of

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Speaker 2: movements or a cluster of faceal expressions. Okay, then maybe

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Speaker 2: I might just say, tell me a little bit more

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Speaker 2: about what's going on for you, and I'd clarify and

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Speaker 2: try and you know, get on board with them, or

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Speaker 2: did that make sense to you? Because I've seen confusion

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Speaker 2: on their face? Did that makes sense? So I'm using

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Speaker 2: this information all the time, but not in a way

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Speaker 2: that becomes annoying that I clarify every single thing, because

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Speaker 2: you don't always need to know what's going on. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: you can just let it go, and sometimes you just

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Speaker 2: ignore what you've seen because it's not appropriate. So I'll

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Speaker 2: give you an example of that. Me and my husband.

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Speaker 2: We're out for dinner with some friends of ours a

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Speaker 2: few years ago, and the wife turned to the husband

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Speaker 2: and said, we're really happy, aren't we. We're happily married,

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Speaker 2: aren't we. And the husband did this.

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Speaker 3: We kind of did like a half smirk.

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Speaker 2: Kind smile, and we call that. It is called a

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Speaker 2: half smile, but it's to do with the facial expression

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Speaker 2: and the emotion of contempt, which means I feel superior.

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Speaker 2: You might think that, but I don't think that. And

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Speaker 2: my husband looked at me, and I was like, none

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Speaker 2: of our business. You know, in that context, we've seen

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Speaker 2: something that we know it means something a little bit more.

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Speaker 2: His wife didn't pick up on it. None of our business.

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Speaker 2: We don't ever ever talk about that to them. I

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Speaker 2: talked about to each other in the car and haven't

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Speaker 2: be like, oh, did you see that?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: But we certainly wouldn't say it in that because it's

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Speaker 2: not appropriate. You know that it's not our business, and

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Speaker 2: I certainly don't want to go into marital relationship therapy.

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Speaker 1: I was actually wondering if there is some sort of

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Speaker 1: ethical guideline that you try to live by with this,

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Speaker 1: because you could almost it's the same way that when

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Speaker 1: I speak to psychics, I'm always like, how do you

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Speaker 1: not tap in on everyone all the time? And it's

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Speaker 1: almost invasive or invasion of privacy in a.

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Speaker 2: Way absolutely can be yes. So for me, it's all

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Speaker 2: about kindness. Okay, if I see something, you know, can

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Speaker 2: I deal with this in a kind way? Can I

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Speaker 2: approach it in a kind way and highlight it? Or

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Speaker 2: if I can't do that, then I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: say anything because for me, kindness is absolutely king. I

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Speaker 2: just think this is the knowledge that I have and

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Speaker 2: that I trained people to have has to be used

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Speaker 2: with kindness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems like a good guideline. Okay, to get

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Speaker 1: back to dating. There have been obviously relationships I mentioned

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Speaker 1: that I've been in the past where people have looked

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Speaker 1: me in the eye and lied, and obviously, looking back,

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Speaker 1: I knew, like, yes, I'm a very intuitive person, and

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Speaker 1: if I allow myself to tap in, I think that

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Speaker 1: I instinctually am reading body language and things like that

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Speaker 1: all the time. But you know, I wouldn't take it,

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Speaker 1: or I would take it at face value. And I'm

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Speaker 1: curious if my listeners are hearing this and they're thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know about this guy, or they're

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Speaker 1: in dating relationships or in relationships like friendships are at work.

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Speaker 1: Is there like one red flag movement or indicator of

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Speaker 1: lying that we can be looking for.

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Speaker 2: There are lots, but they all mean different things to

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Speaker 2: different people. So I always say to someone, firstly, trust

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Speaker 2: your intuition. Yeah, if you're feeling a little bit like

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Speaker 2: I'm really not sure, trust that. Absolutely trust that. And

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Speaker 2: I think we're taught not to trust that any more,

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Speaker 2: but we should. We should absolutely trust that, And A

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Speaker 2: second one is when someone's behavior changes. Notice it. So

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Speaker 2: if for example, someone's a fidgeter, means nothing. It's what

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Speaker 2: they always do, it's their normal behavior. If they stop fidgeting,

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Speaker 2: that's when I become interested. Oh, because they've changed their behavior.

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Speaker 2: So now what's going on? If someone talks a lot

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Speaker 2: and then they suddenly stop talking a lot, Okay, now

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Speaker 2: what's going on? Yeah, because that's not their normal behavior.

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Speaker 2: So that that's a fail safe rule that works with

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Speaker 2: everybody and anybody. That sign of lie in that sign

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Speaker 2: of deception, it's when their behavior changes from their norm

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Speaker 2: So you have to know somebody quite well to know

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Speaker 2: when their behavior changes. You know, I've just met you

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Speaker 2: for the first time today. I would have no idea

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Speaker 2: what your signs of deception are because I don't know

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Speaker 2: you well enough. Right, Okay, However, there would be things

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Speaker 2: I would be looking for. So if you were saying

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Speaker 2: things to me, I would be looking for a nose wrinkling.

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Speaker 2: So this you know. I know your listeners can't say that,

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Speaker 2: but the rinkling of the nose where you kind of

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Speaker 2: scrunch up your nose. Yeah, people often do that when

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Speaker 2: they say something they don't believe.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to spink when I ever do that.

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Speaker 2: So, for example, my friends say, do you want to

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Speaker 2: come out with us this weekend? And I've had a

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Speaker 2: really busy week and I really don't want to go,

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Speaker 2: but I don't want to say no because I'm going

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Speaker 2: to put it in the WhatsApp group later on, which

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Speaker 2: is a lot less threatening. I'm like, go, yeahah yah,

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Speaker 2: I'll be there. And those rings.

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Speaker 3: So when you said yeah, yeah, yeah, she squandered her

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Speaker 3: nose up.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, that'll do.

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Speaker 3: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that people do when they when they

403
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Speaker 2: say something but they've got no confidence, or it could

404
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Speaker 2: be a little bit of a porky pie lie, is

405
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Speaker 2: the shoulder will go up just one sided. A double

406
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Speaker 2: sided shoulder shrug means. I don't know that's generally true

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Speaker 2: for most people in the Western world. But when the

408
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Speaker 2: one sided shoulder shrug goes for me, it's always my

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Speaker 2: left and I do this too. I can't stop my

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Speaker 2: body from giving this one away, right, But when my shoulder,

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Speaker 2: my left shoulder goes and it's just that one. Whatever

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Speaker 2: I've just said, I'm probably not going to do, okay,

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Speaker 2: So that's a good one.

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Speaker 1: Fascinating. That is a really good one. I want to

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Speaker 1: touch back to the first point that you made, are

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Speaker 1: our bodies communicating. I'm a big energy person, and I'm

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Speaker 1: just curious when you said listen to your intuition. Immediately

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Speaker 1: I thought, is there a way that my body and

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Speaker 1: that person's body we're communicating without us and like we're

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Speaker 1: saying different words obviously, but like we're our bodies having

421
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Speaker 1: a whole nother dialogue.

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Speaker 2: I think so too. I'm a great believer in energy.

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Speaker 2: You know, when some walks into the room, you feel

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Speaker 2: their presence or not, as the case may be. I

425
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Speaker 2: we definitely react energetically to other people. And I think,

426
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Speaker 2: you know, part of the energetic stuff that I've certainly

427
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Speaker 2: learned about. We are all connected in some way, or

428
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Speaker 2: that you and I are connected. Now we've had this conversation, Yeah,

429
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Speaker 2: we are not connected. So you know, our energy is

430
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Speaker 2: I like you, you like me. That's an energy thing

431
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Speaker 2: as well as a visual thing, as well as a

432
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Speaker 2: body language thing, as well an appearance thing. I think

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Speaker 2: energy is working on a whole other level, and I

434
00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: completely believe that that our interactions are shaped by that energy.

435
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 1: Let's talk about eye contact because I mentioned people looking

436
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 1: you directly in the eyes and lying, So I think

437
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 1: like eye contact has always talked about as the big

438
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: indicator of lying, and I think to myself that can't

439
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: be true though, because most of the people that have

440
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: lied to me have looked me in the face and

441
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: done it. So can you talk to about that a

442
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: little bit, like, how do we understand what eye contact is?

443
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 3: Is it important?

444
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: I know there's a big piece of eye contact that

445
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 1: can be for deep connection as well.

446
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 3: So can you absolute eye contact?

447
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 2: Yes? So normal eye contact in everyday life should be

448
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 2: between sixty to seventy percent of the interaction. That's normal

449
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 2: for most people. Now, neurodiverse people, often not all of them,

450
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 2: often have less eye contact. Some people who are lying

451
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 2: rather than you know, we've always been taught or when

452
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 2: they look away they're lying, right. Oftentimes the truth is

453
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: it's the opposite. A liar will try to hold your

454
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 2: gaze longer for a couple of reasons. Firstly, to make

455
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: sure that you're going along with what they're trying to

456
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 2: make you believe, and secondly, because everyone knows this myth

457
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 2: that liars look away, So I'm going to hold your

458
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: gaze really recently so that you believe me. Actually, the

459
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: opposite is actually true, that people will hold the gaze

460
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: longer than is normal because they are lying interesting.

461
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: Okay, well, then I've done a bunch of energy type

462
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: workshops or like tntra with you, like a tantra workshop.

463
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 1: It's such a big part of the deep connection with

464
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: your partner to do left eye to left eye. So

465
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 1: why is that what's happening with our bodies when we're

466
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: engaging in that kind of eye contact?

467
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 2: And I heard have you heard of the studies where

468
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 2: you can almost get anyone to fall in love with you?

469
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: I think it's two minutes or three minutes. Have you

470
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 2: heard about that?

471
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 3: Okay?

472
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 1: But I heard seven minutes is like a deep soul connection.

473
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: Once you look left eye to left eye for seven minutes,

474
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 1: it's like it unlocks some sort of soul communication or

475
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 1: soul connection. That's the only piece that I've heard.

476
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 2: But okay, I've not heard about that bit. However, it

477
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: would make a lot of sense to me. So there

478
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 2: was a study done by a psychologist a few years

479
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 2: ago now where he got two strangers to sit and

480
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 2: he did pairs of people didn't know each other, and

481
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 2: a high percentage of these couples fell in love and

482
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: they had to ask questions, and while they were asking

483
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 2: and answering the questions, to keep looking into each other's eyes.

484
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: And it was something about three minutes. I need to

485
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: check the stats on that, but yeah, once you stare

486
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: or not stare, but that really make that deep eye contact,

487
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 2: you'd begin to develop feelings or at the very least

488
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 2: a bond. Now, with some of my private clients, one

489
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: of the questions I always ask them is how much

490
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 2: do you like yourself? And which normally gets a bit

491
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: of a shock, like no one was ever asking that before.

492
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 2: Now'm not talking about the affirmations where you know, you

493
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: look at the mirror say I love myself, I love myself.

494
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 2: I'm talking about how much do you really like yourself?

495
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 2: And oftentimes people are saying, well, not a lot. So

496
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: I respond to that with, well, if you don't like yourself,

497
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: your brain is subcoudtually saying is why would anybody else

498
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: like me either? So I get them to start looking

499
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: in the mirror, maybe for five seconds a day, and

500
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: just really look into their own eyes to create that connection.

501
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: And while they're looking, they can't have any judgment about themselves.

502
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 2: They can say nice things, yeah, I cannot say anything

503
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 2: horrible about themselves. They can say, oh, my eyes got

504
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: really good today. And this is not while you're cleaning

505
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: your teeth, and it's not while you're brushing your hair

506
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 2: or whatever other beauty routines you might have. This is

507
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 2: just going to the mirror and looking into your own

508
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: eyes and just start with a few seconds and then

509
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 2: build it up until it becomes really comfortable, until you

510
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: can do a minute, two minutes, and just just look

511
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: at yourself without judgment. Because our self esteem, our liking

512
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: of ourselves affect every relationship we have.

513
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: That really just teared me up. And because I think

514
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: unless you've done that mirror work, I mean, it's so difficult.

515
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: Which is really interesting how hard it can be to

516
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: look at your own eyes. Again, I didn't think about

517
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: when I was first bringing up I contact. I was

518
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: just using it in relation to other people. But the

519
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: idea of how you talk to yourself and your relationship

520
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 1: with yourself, how much you like yourself, all the messaging

521
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: you're sending to your own body, that is crazy to

522
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 1: think about. So if someone wanted to just start that today,

523
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: if they're listening. How I mean, do you just say

524
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: just do it as long as you can, or yeah, I.

525
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 2: Mean, don't make it so that it becomes I never

526
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: want to do that again. So that's why I say

527
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 2: five seconds some people, but it's ten seconds. It depends

528
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: how much you like or dislike yourself, So people find

529
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: it really hard, really hard. You just look at themselves

530
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: in the mirror. So just start really small and build

531
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 2: it up. If it's five seconds a day, make it

532
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: six seconds tomorrow and maybe seven seconds the next day,

533
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: until you get to ten and then do ten seconds

534
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: for a few days. And just what you're training your

535
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: mind and body is to do become comfortable with yourself.

536
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: And that's so powerful.

537
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: You said it in relation to like how much you

538
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: like yourself. The other thing I had experience with was

539
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: going through like a super traumatic time and doing that

540
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: kind of mirror work. I wasn't allowing myself to acknowledge

541
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: the feelings of sadness, of grief of what I'd been through,

542
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: And when I would look at myself, I would just

543
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: start sobbing immediately when I saw my eyes. It was

544
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: almost like looking at a person who had been through war,

545
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: you know, like a soldier coming out of war. But

546
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: I hadn't been able to acknowledge it until I looked

547
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: into my own eyes. And I didn't really make that

548
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: connection until you just said this and the other thing.

549
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if you saw my ted talk,

550
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: but I talk about as humans we need to feel

551
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: seen and heard. That also means by ourselves.

552
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 3: Yes, it's most importantly there, I think.

553
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: So, I think it all starts with us. You know,

554
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: I should probably gathering from our conversation, it starts with me.

555
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 2: Every interaction I go into it starts with me. Yes,

556
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: I also to have empathy with the other person. I

557
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: want to interact and create great relationships, but it starts

558
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: with me. If I've got a great relationship with myself,

559
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 2: I go into that interaction and in a much better place.

560
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: Well, I mentioned I work with celebrities in I do

561
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: hear makeup and styling. So it's all beauty business. And

562
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: I'm curious because in twenty twenty five, it feels like

563
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: everyone's either having plastic surgery or botox or filler. How

564
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: much is that impacting what we can read with body

565
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: language and facial expressions.

566
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: Massively masslee, Yes, So I have a client in production.

567
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: She's in production of adverts and content, and she's had

568
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: quite a lot of work done to her face. And

569
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: she said, did you notice? I said I did not.

570
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: She well, you never said anything. I said, well, not

571
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: my business. You know, yeah, I noticed, but I'm not

572
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 2: going to say anything. It's that kindness again, you know,

573
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: it's not my job to highlight it. However, I said,

574
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: do people find you hard to read now? She said, oh, yeah,

575
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 2: really hard. But I like that. And I said, the

576
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: only thing I would be aware of if I was

577
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: you is that when we can't read somebody, we become

578
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: very uncertain around them, and we're more likely to avoid them.

579
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: When we can read people, we engage, we pick up

580
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: those empathy cues, we connect on an energetic level. When

581
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: we can't do that because we can't read their face,

582
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: because they can't move their face in any way, we

583
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: become uncomfortable as humans. So I would just be aware

584
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 2: of that from that perspective. And that is so true.

585
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: You know, I've got appliance that I've been working with

586
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: for a while, and I always thought she was really

587
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 2: cold and really hard. She's absolutely lovely underneath, but nobody

588
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: knows that because she has no movement in her face.

589
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: When you really get to know her, you see a

590
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 2: little bit more movement. But she's created this perfect face,

591
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: absolutely beautiful, but it's hard to connect to and people

592
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 2: feel like she's difficult. She's really shocked when someone says

593
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: that she's difficult, because I'm not because inside she's got

594
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: everything else opposite to being difficult going on, but she's

595
00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: not showing it in any way.

596
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: We will actually avoid people that we can't read. Yes,

597
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: that's subconscious, right, like we don't We just can't want

598
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: to be around.

599
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, completely subconscious emotions. Stuff happens often below conscious level.

600
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: So I do, and I've done lots of examples of

601
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: this where I'll show the picture of someone smiling, lovely,

602
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,239
Speaker 2: genuine smile of this picture, same picture, but it's a

603
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 2: pose smile or just you know, a gentle smile. There's

604
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: no real activation going on. Right. People will react seventy

605
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: five percent more with this than this because this we understand,

606
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: it's emotional, it's authentic, it's genuine. As humans, we're drawn

607
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: to it.

608
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: This.

609
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: We're not that sure a backs, we don't really know

610
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: what it means.

611
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: That is fascinating because there's sometimes where I just don't

612
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: like people and I don't know why, but I bet

613
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: it's part of that.

614
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And your subconscious is working all the time.

615
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: So you may your subconscious may have seen something in

616
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: that person that somebody else who did you wrong or

617
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: you didn't like from years ago, and they've picked up

618
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: similar cues and clues, so you're subcontrus go hmm, I

619
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: don't like you. But it's all happening below conscious level.

620
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: So I know a lot of your work is working

621
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: with these big brands that we mentioned some of them

622
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: at the beginning. So how is that tying into what

623
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: you bring to these corporations as far as how they

624
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: should advertise in branding and things like that.

625
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: So all of the content, so whether it's any sort

626
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: of media where it involves a person, the opportunities to

627
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 2: get it right and to get it wrong are massive.

628
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: You know, some of the key visuals that I advise on.

629
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: So what happens is that a brand, say like Dove

630
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: or you know hair care brands. Personal brands mostly send

631
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: me some content images that they're going to use for

632
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: their advertising in their marketing, and I'll write reports on

633
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: the image and say this is how your consumers or

634
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: your shoppers will feel from the talents facial expression and

635
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: body language. This is the message there sending as a

636
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: human and it's either going to repel or it's going

637
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: to bring people forward. And what we want to do

638
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: is we want to engage. It's not always happiness. Happiness

639
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: isn't always the right emotion. Sometimes it is fear. We

640
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: want to in sell a little bit of fear. So

641
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: I always say to the brands, start with how you

642
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: want your shoppers and consumers to feel when they look

643
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: at your key visual or when they look at your media.

644
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: How do you want them to feel? And that's your

645
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: starting point, and then you build from there with the talent.

646
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: And you know, from casting the personality types. That's another

647
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: thing that I do that don't really shout about, but

648
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: you know how we can personality type people from their

649
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: face actually and perception science how we read other people.

650
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: So using that science gives brands a much better opportunity.

651
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: And I worked out a few years ago now, so

652
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: this has probably grown this figure that in the UK alone,

653
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: the hair care market just for shampoos, conditioners, those sorts

654
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: of products. I'm not talking about hair dye or anything

655
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: else is worth something like thirty nine pounds for women

656
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: aged eighteen to thirty four. Well, if you just get

657
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: a one percent increase, that's a lot of revenue generator. Yeah,

658
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: And I know from all the research I've done that

659
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: if you use the right facial expression, the right body language,

660
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: they'll get at least ten percent more engagement, more sales.

661
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: The fact that all of that has to be thought

662
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: about in making a sale is crazy, actually, because I

663
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: thought of casting like that has to matter first of all,

664
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: from what we just talked about, like does someone even

665
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: have movement in their face? And then also like how

666
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: genuine are they going to come across? Because I think

667
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: there's two types of actors, and some of them are

668
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: believable and then some of them you feel like they're

669
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: acting yep.

670
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: And so much content out there is created around the acting,

671
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 2: whereas what we want is authenticity as humans. That's what

672
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: we respond to, you know, the fake pictures of right,

673
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 2: nobody believes that's authentic. So that's missing a big chunk

674
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: of an opportunity that if you just capture that person

675
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: in the authentic moment, is going to do a much

676
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 2: better job for you. You know, I had a jewelry

677
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 2: brand that a friend of mine actually was their jewelry brand,

678
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 2: and I said, all of the talents showing the jewelry

679
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: looked really miserable. Why don't you just do a trial

680
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 2: and take the faces off. So just show the jewelry

681
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: on an arm, on a necklace, but take off the

682
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: facial expression. Sales went up with something like seventy six

683
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: percent good grief level, and they were like, thank you

684
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: very much. That has like transformed their business because they

685
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 2: say all you know, lots of brands will say, oh,

686
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: we don't want people to look at the face. We're

687
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: not interesting that. Well, we're interested in the clothes or

688
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: whatever it is. But as humans, the first thing we

689
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: do when we come into contact with another person is

690
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 2: look at their face. All of the eye tracking studies

691
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 2: prove that it's the first thing we do. So if

692
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 2: you get the facial expression wrong straight away, you're either

693
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 2: repelling or engaging. So it just makes sense to pay

694
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: attention to that. Take it off. Take the face off.

695
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: If it's not doing a good job.

696
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, take it off.

697
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: So that's interesting to think about within social media and

698
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: this kind of influencer culture because I feel like it

699
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: used to be, especially Instagram, it used to be very staged,

700
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: and we all kind of did this formula of look

701
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: how pretty this is. But what seems to be selling

702
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: more now, and I've heard this across the board is

703
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 1: authenticity totally. That so people don't care as much about

704
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,439
Speaker 1: pretty perfect all of that. They want to be able

705
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: to feel like it's real.

706
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And the reason is, you know, as we become

707
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: more a and I evolved, deep fake photographs, deep fake videos,

708
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: we want to trust what we're seeing is real. The

709
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: authenticity piece and trust are now more important than ever before.

710
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 3: So you know, we have a lot of big because.

711
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 2: We have a lot of fake stuff. And that's not

712
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: just plastic surgery or fillers or botox, it's actually the

713
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: deep fakes too. People want to connect in a more

714
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 2: human way than ever before. I'm busy than I've ever

715
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 2: been in this day and age because people want to trust.

716
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 2: How do I show more trust? How do I make

717
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: people trust me more? How do you know? How do

718
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: I build my personal brand so that you know, I

719
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 2: sell me? That's become so important.

720
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 3: But why is it?

721
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: Isn't it fascinating that people have to ask you how

722
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 1: to be themselves?

723
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 3: That's like in the bigger picture of.

724
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: This whole conversation, I was thinking, Wow, how sad that

725
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: we are so programmed to perform that we don't even

726
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: know how to be authentic anymore.

727
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, very sad, really sad. But it happens more than

728
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: you perhaps realize. It's so important that trust is going

729
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: to be the new currency.

730
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, I think you're totally right, especially with AI

731
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: coming so hard. Just to wrap things up, I have

732
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: a couple of rapid fire questions. Is there a moment

733
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: that you've read someone wrong that there was a big

734
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: impact for that, I mean.

735
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 2: Not recently.

736
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 1: Okay, there is someone so European.

737
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say too much because I don't

738
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: want to give any identifying details away, but I read

739
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 2: it was a man. Actually I read him really as

740
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: a pompous twit, and actually, on my first impression, his

741
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: body language, everything about him was designed to make people

742
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 2: think he was very pompous and arrogant. Actually, underneath it,

743
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: he's a really nice man and I am actually working

744
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: with him now. If you'd have said to me, of

745
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: all the people you'll be working with as a private client,

746
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 2: he would be the last one that I would have

747
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: ever said would want to become a private client of mine.

748
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: And he approached me and said, I'd really like you

749
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 2: to coach me and help me show who I really am,

750
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: because he just had no idea. I mean, he came.

751
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 2: He did the pomposity as a means of he actually

752
00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: felt inside quite low self esteem. So the pomposity, it's

753
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: all about putting this front on this, you know, the

754
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 2: big I am, when actually he's really not the big Iaman.

755
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: He's actually a really lovely person to leave. So I'm

756
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 2: working with him, And I was really wrong about him

757
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 2: because I just thought he would never be interested in, yeah,

758
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: actually becoming who he really is and showing that authenticity

759
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: and that trust. And he's a client, So yeah, I

760
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: got that one wrong.

761
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: Actually, that's interesting that we can almost project like ours,

762
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: call that persona, but we can project big puffed up

763
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: negative energy too, even when that's not what's actually happening

764
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: on the inside.

765
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely interesting.

766
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: What's a cue that you may still struggle to interpret

767
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: in real time?

768
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 3: Is there one?

769
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 2: If there's more than one person interaction, I can't capture everybody,

770
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: much as I would like to be, like, yeah, but

771
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: I can't. So you know, I miss stuff, and also,

772
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: you know awareness, I don't always switch this on. I'm

773
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 2: not constantly on the lookout to read people, and sometimes

774
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 2: I miss stuff and somebody else will say to me, oh,

775
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: did you say that they did it. No, I've never

776
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: even saw it completely unaware. Yeah, because I'm not switched

777
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: on all the time looking for signs and signals, it

778
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: would be exhausted.

779
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,959
Speaker 3: Is there something you're practicing in your body right now?

780
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. I hold my shoulders up quite high. I often

781
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: find myself just relaxing, and that's anxiety. Actually, it's often

782
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: a sign of anxiety holding So I often think, like,

783
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 2: just remind myself to drop my shoulders, because I do that.

784
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 3: You know.

785
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: One of the emotions that drives my behavior is low

786
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 2: level anxiety. Not that I'm a masket case of nerves.

787
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: It's just this, you know, learned behavior as a child

788
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 2: that I want to do a good job. I really

789
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 2: care about doing a good job, and that transforms itself

790
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: into a bit of anxiety. So oftentimes my shoulders are

791
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: up here when actually they should be down here. So

792
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 2: that's something I'm working on all of them.

793
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a very common one, right, like or

794
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: just being tense, like I'll sometimes notice I'm not even

795
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: taking deep breaths, yes, if I'm stressed like that, So

796
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: it's just that tension or you know, we're holding it

797
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: on in our body. That's a good one I think

798
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: for everyone to pay attention to. Well, we mentioned the

799
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: Ted talk, so I'm going to put a lea to

800
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: that in the bio is really it's actually great because

801
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: it's like twenty minutes max, and it teaches a lot.

802
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: You show the pictures of what you were describing with

803
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: the smiles, which I found to be very fascinating, So

804
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 1: I will put that in the description of this podcast

805
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: for you guys.

806
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 3: You also have a book. Can you tell us a

807
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 3: little bit about the book.

808
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: It's a few years old now. It's called The Face Whisperer,

809
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: and it's all about faces and emotions and you know

810
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 2: how you can pay attention to and the applications for that.

811
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 2: I do have another book coming, but it's not quite

812
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: well yet. It's called Beyond Words.

813
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 3: Beyond Words, that's a good yeah.

814
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it touches on that energy stuff. It touches

815
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: on our emotions and how we hold our emotions and

816
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: faced expressions and body language. So there's there's everything about

817
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: where I'm at now, it's the updated version of the

818
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: Face Whisperer.

819
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: I love that connection between all of them. Well, we'll

820
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: be on the lookout for that. Where can people keep

821
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: up with you so we can see when this comes out?

822
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: LinkedIn TikTok, Instagram okay, they are my three main alms

823
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, all the.

824
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: Places Okay, Well, I will put all of the links

825
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: for you guys in the description of this podcast. I

826
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: could talk to you all day because I find it

827
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: so fascinating. So thank you so much for this. I'm

828
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: so excited for you guys to hear about this and

829
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: just thank you for being here.

830
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: Thank you, Kelly