1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you. 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 2: Douglas axback with US professor of Computational Biology and a 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 2: faculty advisor to the AI Lab at Biola University in 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 2: southern California. After earning his PhD at Caltech, Douglas conducted 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: post doctoral research at the University of Cambridge and the 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: Cambridge Medical Research Console Center. His work, focusing on protein 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 2: evolution and the stability of genetic information, has been featured 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: in leading journals. His latest book is called Undeniable. How 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: biology confirms our intuition that life is designed. Douglas, welcome 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:44,959 Speaker 2: back to the show. Have you been. 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 3: I've been very well. Thank you for having me. 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: Looking forward to this. Your book came out last year. 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: It's been a great hit. 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 3: Well, no, see Undeniable. My most recent book is actually 16 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 3: on the COVID pandemic. It's the Price of Panic. Undeniable 17 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 3: came out in twenty sixteen, and you and I talked 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 3: sometime in late twenty sixteen, I think it was, so 19 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 3: there's been a lot happening since then. But the book 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 3: actually is about nine years out. 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: Now, I thought you updated it. 22 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 3: No, there's no, there isn't an update. It's come out 23 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 3: in lots of different languages, but it's the same book. 24 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 2: Things have changed, though, haven't they. 25 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 3: They have changed. 26 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 2: What have you been doing since? 27 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 3: Well when we last book, I was up in Seattle 28 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: running a nonprofit there. I have now taken a faculty 29 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 3: position down here in La County where all the action 30 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 3: that we were talking about a minute ago is happening. 31 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 3: I'll try to avoid the curfew. I actually don't have 32 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 3: to try it that way on the way home. So 33 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 3: I'm a professor now at Biola University, at Christian University 34 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 3: in Los Angeles County. I'm doing research a big time, 35 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 3: but I'm doing it with undergraduate students. I'm used to 36 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: having like postdocs and older, more experienced researchers, so having 37 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 3: to learn and how you do research with undergraduates and 38 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 3: I'm loving that experience. 39 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: Doug, it appears that Undeniable really pushes the possibility that 40 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: there is indeed a God. Did you suffer any animosities 41 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 2: from your colleagues because of that? Oh? 42 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 3: Sure, as you do it. Yeah, But I think the 43 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 3: approach that I took with the book was well. As 44 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: I was researching the book, a quote I came across 45 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 3: that really stuck with me and I use it a 46 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 3: lot is by UC Berkeley psychology professor Alison Gothlink. She said, 47 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 3: by elementary school age children start to invoke and ultimate 48 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: godlike designer to explain the complexity of the world around them, 49 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 3: even children brought up as an atheist. And what she 50 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 3: was saying there, based on research by other psychologists, is 51 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 3: there's something innate in us that from an early age. 52 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: You're four years old, you're in the in the back 53 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: garden and you see a butterfly, and you know it 54 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 3: was made by a godlike designer, even if your parents 55 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: have never spoken about God, or even if your parents 56 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 3: have spoken negatively about God. So that's something that I 57 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 3: kind of inspired me as I was writing the book 58 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: to take an approach where I'm speaking to people who 59 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 3: aren't scientists, who will never be, who will never be 60 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 3: trained scientists, and yet showing that this thing that the 61 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 3: Fourield is doing does have a scientific component to it, 62 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: and you land at the right answer. 63 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: When we talk about intelligent design, in your opinion, what 64 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: does that mean? 65 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: It's so I think The term as it's used currently 66 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 3: was coined probably in the late eighties or early nineties, 67 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 3: and it's the idea that the actions of intelligences can 68 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: be detected by the things that they produce. And that's 69 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 3: really not controversial. So SETI, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence 70 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 3: is in non controversial. I mean, people differ as to 71 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: whether they think there's intelligence out there to be found, 72 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: but they don't differ as to whether, in principle, if 73 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 3: there is high level inte intelligence out there, it could 74 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 3: produce signals that we would see and we know came 75 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 3: from an intelligence. That's what the that's what the movies 76 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 3: that are talking about this are are are talking about. 77 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 3: Where it does get controversial is if you say that 78 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 3: that principle can be applied to living systems, that you 79 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 3: look at life as we see it here on Earth 80 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 3: and you can infer in the same way that you 81 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 3: might infer from extraterrestrial signals that life was in fact 82 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 3: created by an intelligent designer. That gets controversial because, of course, 83 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 3: biologists for ever since Darwin have wanted to say that 84 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 3: this is the exception. Things that look like they're engineered 85 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 3: and the product of intelligence. But aren't really the product 86 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 3: of intelligence. And that's that's how you get pushed back 87 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 3: on a book. 88 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: Well with Professor Douglas as his book is called Undeniable, 89 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: how biology confirms our intuition that life is designed in 90 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 2: your opinion, give me your definition of God, Doug. 91 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 3: Well, I'm a Christian, so i'll give what I consider 92 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 3: God to be is the ultimate, the base reality. He 93 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 3: and I believe in a trying God, so father, son, 94 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 3: and Holy Spirit. He is that from which everything else comes. 95 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 3: So nothing else exists apart from what He has created. 96 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 3: And He has, for his own reasons, created us as 97 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 3: smaller creators. So we have lots of the attributes of God, 98 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 3: but not all of them. But one of them that 99 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 3: we have is that we are creators, and so we 100 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 3: do things that mirror in some respects the fact that 101 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 3: we are created by a God who creates. 102 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 2: In my mind, I'm still baffled though. How did God start? 103 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 3: Well, he didn't, So there has to be in any worldview, 104 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 3: there has to be what's called a first cause, which 105 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 3: means an uncaused cause. And some people would say, if 106 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 3: you're a materialist and you reject God and you think 107 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 3: that you know the physical universe is the base reality. Well, 108 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 3: you're in trouble when you realize that there was a 109 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: Big Bang and that was the start to the physical universe. 110 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 3: So if you're committed to rejecting God as the origin 111 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 3: of the universe, you might go the multiverse route and say, well, 112 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 3: there's some other context, some other physical context in which 113 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 3: universes get produced. But in any case, you have to 114 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: ultimately land on a first cause, and in a theistic 115 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 3: world view, God is the first cause. He's the uncaused cause. 116 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: Someone who believes in an infinite multiverse might say, well, 117 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 3: there's some sort of quantum structured multiverse that's the unc cause. 118 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 3: But you always have to have an uncovered. 119 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: Is any of this real? Dog do you think? Or 120 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: are we living in some kind of matrix. 121 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: Anything? Any of this real what we're experiencing in this universe. 122 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 3: I think it's totally real, and I reject the multiverse. 123 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 3: So I reject the claims and they're made by some 124 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 3: very smart people like Elon Mosk Neil deGrasse Tyson say 125 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 3: we're living in a simulation, and they have the reasons 126 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: for saying that. I think you can show that that's 127 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: wrong and that what we're thinking in here is the 128 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: real thing. 129 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 2: You deal with a lot of college age younger people. 130 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: Where do you think their mindset is with this kind 131 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: of subject matter. 132 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 3: Well, it's an interesting it's an interesting thing because when 133 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: I was college age, you didn't have social media. You 134 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: didn't really you didn't have the Internet, you didn't have 135 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 3: the Web, and you sure they didn't have AI. So 136 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: you have all these components of technology that are deeply 137 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 3: affecting the way young people grow up today. And as 138 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: a professor, I'm teaching people who are eighteen to twenty 139 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 3: two year olds who have grown up with technology that 140 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 3: certainly didn't exist when I was their age, and it 141 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: does change the way they grapple with truth. I could 142 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 3: be in a lecture and saying something and be pretty 143 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 3: sure that if people are skeptical of what I said, 144 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: they're googling it or asking chat GPT in real time 145 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 3: while I'm speaking. That certainly wasn't an option when I 146 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 3: was sitting in their place. So it brings with gen 147 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 3: Z come challenges for professors, but also opportunities because I 148 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 3: think this is a rising generation that has unprecedented access 149 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: to information. But that brings the challenge of sorting all 150 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 3: the information. 151 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: Out, Doug, do you think science will ever admit there 152 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: is a God. 153 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 3: I think it's folly if sciences don't, because science is 154 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 3: definitely pushing in that direction. So if you examine scientific 155 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 3: if you look at cosmology, this whole press for with 156 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 3: the advent of Big Bang theory, came the end of 157 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: the steady state universe. It used to be up until 158 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 3: about the midway in the twentieth century that cosmologists thought 159 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 3: the universe had always been pretty much the way it is. 160 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 3: Big Bang cosmology brought the end of that and pointed 161 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 3: to God. People who aren't comfortable with that come up 162 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 3: with multiverse versions of cosmology. Similarly, in biology, time and 163 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 3: time again we find things that are marvels and intricately 164 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 3: engineered things inside living beings, inside the cell, and all 165 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: of those things are screaming that someone did this, someone 166 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: brilliant did this. And yet you have this tendency, at 167 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 3: least in this sort of official establishment science circles to 168 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 3: deny that and come up with some alternative explanation. So 169 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 3: whether that will fully turn or not, I don't know. 170 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 3: But this new generation, I think is me a hope 171 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 3: because I think it's this rising generation of students, the 172 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 3: Gen Z students I think are less committed to establishment. 173 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 3: They're more willing to question things, and maybe growing up 174 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 3: with the Internet has been part of that. They can 175 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 3: they have access to all kinds of opinions, so why 176 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 3: should they tow the line on the official opinion. 177 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast Am every weeknight at 178 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: one am Eastern and go to Coast to coastam dot 179 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: com for more