1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noll. They call 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our superproducer all 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: mission control decades. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. 9 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: Our story today takes place a little bit more than 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: seventies six years ago. It's about thirty miles north of 11 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: San Francisco in the Bay. It's a story that includes 12 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: a number of proposed conspiracies and a number of proven conspiracies. 13 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: And while may not have heard of this story before, 14 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: it is a It is a story that fundamentally changed 15 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: the course of the United States. It's known as the 16 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: Port Chicago disaster. Have you guys, did you guys ever 17 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: hear about this before in grade school or growing up? 18 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: I don't recall learning about it in school. However, I 19 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: traveled to Valeo, California, which is right in the very 20 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: close in that area, and I learned about it after 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: hearing about the naval history of Mayor Island, which is 22 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: very close to there too, But that's the only time 23 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: I've ever encountered it. Yeah, and Mayor Island is going 24 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: to come up in this story quite a bit as well. 25 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: Um I I had never heard a peep about it, 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: and was actually quite a surprise to learn that the 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: Port Chicago has absolutely nothing to do with Illinois or 28 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: the Midwest at all, or the band Chicago even No, 29 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: but it does turn out the twenty five or six 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: to four is when the whoever the main Chicago Dudas 31 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: was trying to figure out a closing line of the 32 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: song and he looked at his watch and it was 33 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: twenty or six minutes to four, which seems like a 34 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: quite a large gap there, But that's the lore of 35 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: of that song. And here are the facts. So, despite 36 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: the name, nothing to do with Illinois, nothing do with Chicago, 37 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: the band, or the metropolis. Port Chicago was a town 38 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: located in California, thirty miles north of San Francisco. It 39 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: was once upon a time called Bay Point because it 40 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: was created in part by something called the Bay Point 41 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: Land Company. However, Port Chicago was not like a normal town, 42 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: at least in conception. No, it was a town with 43 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: a purpose, with a mission. It was developed specifically to 44 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: serve and support a giant munitions facility UM. And that 45 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: is because that island that Matt mentioned, Mare Island, also 46 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: had a naval ammunition depot there that was starting to 47 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: not quite cut it for the war effort on its own, 48 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: so they needed an additional UH deep and factory to 49 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: support the war effort out of California. And you know 50 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: there's the Port Chicago that has the pier where all 51 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: of that ammunitions loading and all that occurs. But there's 52 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: also a town where the people would live that work 53 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: there if you didn't live, you know, on the facility 54 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: like in the base. Essentially, UM there's a population in 55 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: that small town of around fifteen hundred and it was 56 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: located only about a mile and a half away from 57 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: where those ships were located. Yeah, and this will be 58 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: important to this story later. So this is a purpose 59 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: built town. In some ways, it's similar to places like 60 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: Oak Ridge, Tennessee, or some of the closed cities in 61 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: the former USSR. But make no mistake, even though Port 62 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: Chicago the town was relatively small in terms of population, 63 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: it was a huge deal to Uncle Sam. Business was 64 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: booming by the summer of nineteen forty four. Uh, the 65 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: newly minted facility had already expanded such that they could 66 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: load two ships concurrently around the clock, so seven two 67 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: ships in and then two ships out. Business was also 68 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: terrible in addition to booming. It whether you thought it 69 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: was awesome or terrible dependent on your role in the process. 70 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: Because the Navy and all of the armed services at 71 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: this time, we're still segregated, and that meant the dangerous, awful, 72 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: crappy jobs like loading you live munitions were typically assigned 73 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: to the African American units and uh, these guys were 74 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: not what's the old saying, These guys were not set 75 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: up for success by their superiors or command structure. Now, 76 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: and it makes me think of the term cannon fodder 77 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: that you hear oftentimes. And there are, you know, hellish 78 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: stories of African American troops being put on the front 79 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: line as essentially human ponds, you know, to be kind 80 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: of to to soak up the brunt of an onslaught 81 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: so that the folks in the back could maybe live 82 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: on to fight another day. Um. And this is not 83 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: dissimilar from that, UM. It's not direct combat, but it's involving, um, 84 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: the handling of some very unstable and dangerous munitions without 85 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: proper training. Yeah, if you think think about that, these 86 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: are high explosive materials and projectiles essentially that that they're 87 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: handling without proper training. They these guys that were forced 88 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: to do this work. We're trained for hand to hand 89 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: to combat for you know, um other combat roles with 90 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: with weapons and such. But they didn't have any official 91 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: training on how to do what they were doing at night, 92 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, after working all day, 93 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: and they were you know, they were told to do 94 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: this without training by their white superior officers. And in 95 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: addition to that, they had these incredibly hectic loading schedules. 96 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: The people on the front lines will die if we 97 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: don't get this stuff out in time, and it always 98 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: needs to be there yesterday. So uh, safety standard, it's like, uh, 99 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: it's similar in some ways to the COVID problems and 100 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: productions today safety standards where either diminished or ignored out right. 101 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: What could go wrong? Like this is a bit of 102 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: a tangent, but you know, and a lot of productions nowadays, 103 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: film productions or I think TV productions as well. Uh, 104 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: there is someone who is hired as a COVID compliance 105 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: officer or something like that, and uh, nobody really listens 106 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: to them. They've got a terrible job because they're supposed 107 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: to speak truth to power, and you guys know, the 108 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: hierarchy of sets, you can't even if you're right, you 109 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 1: can't go up to the director or some A list 110 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: celebrity and be like, hey, you know, legally, legally it's 111 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,679 Speaker 1: masked time, Uh, Morgan Freeman or whatever. You'll get fired 112 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: and that's what's happening. Well that's true, but yes, I 113 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: agree with you really been But also like that part. 114 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: It is, if one person on a set gets COVID, 115 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: the whole production has to shut down. And I've heard 116 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: of that happening quite a few times. Um, you know 117 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: here in our little film bubble of Atlanta. But I 118 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: wanted a double back on one tiny thing I said 119 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: talking about the things they were handling being unstable. There 120 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: is some truth to that, but it's interesting because munitions 121 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: up until the late eighteen hundreds had been explosives rather 122 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: had been incredibly unstable. And then Nobel invented dynamite. Alfred 123 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: Nobel in the eighteen sixties, which was like a way 124 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: of stable handling explosives UM that were you know, stronger 125 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: than black powder UM, which had been like the kind 126 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: of explosive du jour before that. And I learned a 127 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: little bit about this listening to the great podcast Omnibus 128 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: with Ken Jennings and John Roderick UM. And I think 129 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: it's really ironic and probably not lost on anybody that 130 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: Alfred Nobel um in inventing dynamite, he prevented people from 131 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: blowing themselves up accidentally by handling munitions and when and 132 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: things like that, but also made it much more possible 133 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: to spread the use of these type of explosives and 134 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, kill people with them on purpose. So he, 135 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: in order to maybe maintain his legacy, started the whole 136 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize, right. But the philosophical question there is 137 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: it's an important one. Uh does that make your hands clean? 138 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: Did building the Winchester mansion in some way? Uh? Spiritually 139 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: exonerate the Winchester widow from all the deaths on the 140 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: other end of the Winchester repeating rifle story for another day. 141 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,359 Speaker 1: But you let's talk about let's talk about the ammunition. 142 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: That's a good direction to go. So on July seventeenth, 143 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: the guys on the evening shift to Matt. Matt's your 144 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: very important point. They were speedloading these two merchant ships, 145 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: the S. S. Quinn Alt Victory and the S S. E. A. Brian. 146 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: The holds were being packed with uh like four thousand 147 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 1: six tons of various explosives, bombs, depth charges, plain old ammunition. 148 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: And then there were another four hundred tons of explosives 149 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 1: waiting nearby on rail cars. Southern Pacific, by the way, 150 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: goes straight through town, so they can carry this stuff 151 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: from the factories. And and just justifiti everyone understands I 152 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: didn't fully understand this. The cargo hold of a large 153 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: ship like that is kind of in the center and 154 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: it's like a cavernous hole that imagine one just filled 155 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: with these explosives with that with that amount, I mean, 156 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: if you're it has to be at least two thousand 157 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 1: tons each for those ships that they're loading up, you know, um, 158 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: and just imagine like two thousand times two thousand, Good god, 159 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: that is so much explosive. Yeah, And picture so picture 160 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: like a hostess cupcake and the sakes it barely eight today. 161 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: Picture they go host this cupcake the time with the 162 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: little lace on the top and cream in the middle, 163 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: or creamfield donut, whatever your your choice. That's that's kind 164 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: of this cargo hold um situations. So the two ships 165 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: with two ships, with two big ships. This was ginormous operation. 166 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: There were hundreds of people in the area. There were 167 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: about three hundred and twenty as far as we can tell, 168 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: on or near the pier. When something went wrong at 169 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: exactly ten eighteen, a series of massive explosions resounded through 170 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: the night, creating blasts that were felt as far away 171 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: as Nevada. That's right, and well, you know, we would 172 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: talk more about this, but those those explosions destroyed everything, 173 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: everything and killed every person who was working there that night. Yeah, 174 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: faporized them, evaporated them. Like we know, there were three 175 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: winning people there from records more so than than uh, 176 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, unfortunately finding a lot of corpses, though not 177 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,119 Speaker 1: even like dental records where they could like match the remains. 178 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: Like I mean when you say vaporized, I mean you 179 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: basically mean like turned to duststegrate. Yeah. The largest remaining 180 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: pieces of the E. A. Brian for instance, which is 181 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: seven thousand, two hundred ton ship itself. The largest remaining 182 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 1: pieces of it were about the size of a suitcase, 183 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: so there was no it's a no stone standing on 184 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: another situation and the damage, the actual damage stretched all 185 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: the way south into San Francisco. UH, somewhere between thirty 186 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: and forty eight miles. Every building remember Port Chicago Town's 187 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: a mile and a half away. Every building, UH takes 188 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: this tremendous amount of damage. There's not there's not a 189 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: pane of glass left in town. People were locked off 190 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: their feet and here's a fun fact, ruined conversations with 191 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: your friends. UH. Despite what we see in action films, 192 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: any explosion powerful enough to knock someone off their feet 193 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: also usually does very serious damage to their bodies. Shout 194 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: out to Rachel Lance, who has been a guest on 195 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: on some of our shows in the past. She is 196 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: an expert, one of the world's foremost experts in underwater explosions, 197 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: which I did not know is a job you could have. 198 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: It's the coolest job, or at least the most niche job, 199 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: but also the coolest, most niche job. And really enjoyed 200 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: talking to her about that. Yeah, and so she can 201 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: verify this, oddly enough, UM through some remarkable coincidence. A 202 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: bunch of the town's residents are harmed, but none are killed. 203 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: They're much more lucky than the people at the pier. 204 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: Would that have been by like like flying debris perhaps 205 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: or some kind of shock wave bra Yeah, Yeah, they 206 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: were hard by a shock wave. They were harmed by 207 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: all the splintering glass and all of the debris shooting 208 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: out from the sort of origin point of this series 209 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: of explosions. One thing that I found most memorable from 210 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: our conversation with Rachel Lance is that these shock waves 211 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: can be incredibly damaging. Um underwater in particular too. We're 212 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: talking about the S S. Huntley, or wasn't the S S. 213 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: It was just the Huntley, it was this Civil War 214 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: era submarine. And um, the question was, how are the 215 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: people that were killed in the testing of this vehicle? 216 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: What wasn't testing in them? The use of this very 217 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: rudimentary vehicle killed And her kind of thesis is that 218 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: it was the shock wave underwater shock wave that actually 219 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: can cause like internal damage, like it can like eviscerate 220 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: your internal organs. So nothing to sneeze at these shock waves. 221 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: So let's imagine the explosion as it's occurring. When when 222 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: this initial explosion occurs, and then there's just so many 223 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: more that follow Whatever caused the biggest one, and it's 224 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: most likely that it was in the e A Brian 225 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: with with all of those tons of explosives, there were 226 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: smoke and fire that just leapt into the air. It 227 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: was almost two miles high when people were observing it. 228 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: Um there was a pilot in the area who was 229 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: flying about nine thousand feet up noticed that there were 230 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: metal chunks the size of, oh, I don't know, a 231 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: house from the explosion flying past him. The other ship, 232 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: the Quinault that we were talking about it uh in 233 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: the aftermath when it was found there was just a 234 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: tiny piece of it that was sticking up vertically essentially. 235 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: That was one of the biggest pieces of wreckage that 236 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: was discovered there. Just insane when you think about the 237 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: force that that was exerted from this explosion, right, and 238 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: when you think that that pilot made it through to 239 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: relay the story. This the cause of this explosions, as 240 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: he said, Matt, we don't. It remains unknown today and 241 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: that is because all of the evidence that would have 242 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:18,239 Speaker 1: been helpful from a forensic standpoint was destroyed. Moments like millisecond. 243 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: A few seconds after that that first explosion at ten eighteen. 244 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: This makes the Port Chicago disaster the largest man made 245 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: detonation in history to that point by a healthy margin too, 246 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: like pre nuclear weapon redeployment. This is this is the 247 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: largest explosion. Nearly two thirds of the people who lost 248 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: their lives at Port Chicago that evening where African American 249 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: enlisted men serving in the navy. This here's another troubling statistic. 250 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: And that one night the death and that one night 251 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: equal fifteen percent of all African Americans killed throughout the 252 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: entire i writy of World War Two. And the people 253 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: who did survive somehow, who were far enough away to 254 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: just get out, get away with some injuries or something. Uh, 255 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: they were still treated horribly afterwards. The white officers supervising 256 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: them were giving hardship leads. What a terrible disaster. You 257 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: go take some time be with your family. But the 258 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: black survivors were ordered to clean up the base lickety split, 259 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: including picking up the remains of their dead colleagues. So 260 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: you have to go and and again this is when 261 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: we say remains, we're not talking about a coherent single 262 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: body we're talking about pieces of people. Yeah, and and 263 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: according to stories, many of them worked for two or 264 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: three days straight trying attempting to clean up the entire area. 265 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: The absolute worst possible job that someone could be asked 266 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: to do. You know, I can't even imagine being able 267 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: to like look at my superior with a straight face 268 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: with me, like sir, yes, sir um. But it gets 269 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: worse than gets much worse. Yeah. The surviving men are 270 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: quickly reassigned to the nearby mayor island. Uh. And they're 271 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: expected to carry on, just to carry on. That's a 272 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: state of war. Uh. Today we call this, as we said, 273 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: the Port Chicago disaster, but in a very real way. 274 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: That explusion is just the beginning of the story. Will 275 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: pause for a word from our sponsor and dive in 276 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: after this break. Here's where it gets crazy. Fast forward. 277 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: It's less than a month later the Navy starts ordering 278 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: members of these segregated units to load more munitions. They 279 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: still have not received the training they needed, by the way, 280 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: but they wanted They wanted the training. They were calling 281 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: for the training, been asking for it. Yeah, exactly. It's 282 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: not as though it was something that was being neglected 283 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: by the sailors themselves, and there were two hundred and 284 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: fifty eight sailors who then went on a work stoppage 285 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: or a strike. Essentially, they caused a work stoppage. Yeah, 286 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: and you know this isn't like civilian strike. I mean, 287 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: it's essentially, you know, refusing the orders of a commanding 288 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: officer at this point, which is sort of frowned upon 289 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: in the military. Certainly is. But you know, these are 290 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: men that don't have weapons, that are essentially saying, I'm 291 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: I'm striking my work. I don't know, it's it feels 292 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: different than out of the way it's described at least. No, No, 293 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,239 Speaker 1: I'm just saying that's how it would be viewed. I 294 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: think from the brass's perspective, you know, it's like you 295 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: are disobeying and direct order. Yeah, that's correct. In man, 296 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: as you said, call it a work stoppage or strike 297 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: is the perfect description for the civilian world. That's what 298 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: everybody would call it. In the Navy, this refusal to 299 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: work did count in their mind as mutiny, and there 300 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: was a there were a number of detainments and arrest Uh. 301 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: The one building was converted into a brig to hold 302 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: these people but it was never It was never meant 303 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: to hold two hundred and fifty eight people. There's a 304 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: point there about direct orders. One of the big questions 305 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: is these two d fifty eight men directly asked to 306 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: load munitions. Uh? And if not, were they just saying well, 307 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: I'm not going to volunteer for it. Right. There's a 308 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: guy named Lieutenant Gerald eve Veltmann who heads the defense, 309 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: and he says, these accusations of mutiny are incorrect and 310 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: pretty certain that in his personal life he thought that 311 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: some of this stuff was racially motivated. He had a 312 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: pre trial brief wherein he cites the definition of mutiny 313 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: from a thing called Winthrop's Military Law and Precedence, and 314 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: he says, look, the the fifty people who are getting 315 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: straight up charged with mutiny said, look, there's no proof 316 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: that they conspired. Uh, you can't. They didn't get together 317 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 1: and say we're gonna usurp, subvert, or override superior military authority. 318 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: They just did not want to die, right. I always 319 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: thought of a mutiny as sort of like the equivalent 320 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: of like a coup on the high seas, where you 321 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: are colluding to overthrow the commander of the vessel or 322 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: or the authority structure of the vessel and take over 323 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: and and and oftentimes with ill intent, right yeah, yeah, 324 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: Like most of us in the US, when we think 325 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: of mutiny, the most famous one for us would be 326 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: the Mutiny on the Bounty, which is a which led 327 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: to the creation of the nation we know as the 328 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: Pitcairn Islands today, and the pit Carreed Islands should be 329 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: a story, it should be an episode of their own. 330 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: You guys too familiar with that? No, it sounds so familiar, 331 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: But I don't know. It's a there's a long running intergenerational, uh, 332 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: child abuse situation there and one of the I think 333 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: the current mayor was involved. Still mayor was re elected. 334 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: It's just it's it's it's what it's gonna be one 335 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: of those episodes where we have to say at the top, 336 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: it may not be suitable for all audience members, but 337 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: in the meantime, folks, do a little digging of your 338 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: own if you'd like before we get to it. It's 339 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: just it's a shame. But that's that's that's the most 340 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: famous mutiny. Yeah, no, for sure. Well, let's let's just 341 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: go back quickly to that concept of the mutiny of 342 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: what actually occurred. There's a video you can watch right 343 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 1: now on YouTube. It's called Remembering Port Chicago. It's put 344 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: out there by the U. S. Department of Veterans Affairs, 345 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: and in it there's described one of the first actions 346 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: that was taken. It was considered a mutiny or a 347 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: mutinous by the commanding officers, and it was literally to 348 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: not I believe it was to not turn a certain 349 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: way when the commanding officer gave them an order to turn, 350 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: I guess, to then head in to the facility where 351 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: they would begin working and you know, loading munitions and things, um. 352 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: And it literally started there and then it just kind 353 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: of snow snowballed exactly. And like to Ben's point, it 354 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: wasn't as though everybody, at least to the historical record, 355 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: It is not known where every It is not known 356 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: if there was a big meeting or something to decide 357 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: that this was going to occur. Right, some people got 358 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: together allegedly and said, let's have this work stoppage, you know, 359 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: let's let's not let's not repeat the mistakes that occurred 360 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: in Port Chicago. But then there were other people who 361 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: were caught up in the in the crossfire, systemic racism 362 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: because they were told. There's one account that just says, look, 363 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: we were told to stand in a line, and then 364 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: our officers told us, okay, if you don't want to, 365 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: if you're not going to load munitions, step to your 366 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: you know right, or step to your left if you are. 367 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: And then the people who just said I don't want 368 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: to do that got got jailed. Which I feel like 369 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: maybe there was a different answer if you knew this 370 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: was so much was writing on this question. But like 371 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: you guys established earlier, Veltman hits on some consistent points. 372 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: He said, many of these men, thank you, said mat 373 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: I have not been asked directly to do anything. Uh. 374 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: And the ones who refused often said, look, I'm only 375 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: refusing because I need some training, I need safety protocols. 376 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: They're not even giving these people's gloves, by the way. Uh. 377 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 1: And then while they were saying this, they were carrying 378 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: out other unrelated tasks, you know, maintenance, cleaning, stuff like that. 379 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: And they also made no threats, you know, they weren't 380 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: like we're gonna string you up so and so. Uh. 381 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: So he makes a pretty good case that whatever the 382 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: definition of mutiny is, the Port Chicago fifty as they 383 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: came to be known, do not fit the definition. Their 384 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: actions don't fit the definition. But he lost that argument, 385 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: didn't he He did. Indeed, the prosecution um, which was 386 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: led by Lieutenant Commander James F. Cokeley, replied that any 387 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: persistent refusal to work by two or more men was 388 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: in itself sufficient proof of a conspiracy to override authority, 389 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: and as such was tantamount to a mutiny, which I 390 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: would argue, I'm not an naval lawyer or anything, but 391 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: I would argue that's some pretty creative thinking. They're uh, 392 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: some very circuitous arguing. Yeah, It's like, at what point 393 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: does it become a conspiracy? Right? The etymology of conspiracy 394 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: is just to breathe together, So you're a whispering or 395 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: silent together. I don't know. And and how does how 396 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: does the military handle this? Because chain of command is 397 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: so fundamentally important, right? Um? Yeah, we just imagine that 398 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: the embarrassment that the United States Navy was feeling in 399 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: those months, right, the embarrassment that the largest explosion up 400 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: into that point had occurred on their soil, involving their 401 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: you know, their own sailors and their munitions and all that. 402 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: It was just Uh, I can't imagine the embarrassment, and 403 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: it feels like an act to almost I don't know, 404 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: and and act to shift blame maybe right, yeah, absolutely, 405 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: this is absolutely looking for someone to point a finger at, 406 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: even if it's not directly related to the explosion, looking 407 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: for a vulnerable group to scapegoat. Uh. Well, like maybe 408 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: almost a diversion, right, It's like, look, we're here at 409 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: these guys who broke the rules and disobeyed direct orders, 410 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: as opposed to look at us, you know, sitting high 411 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: and mighty in our commander's chairs, which is a thing 412 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: because it was ultimately on them to provide the proper training, 413 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: which clearly wasn't done and clearly made these Uh. It's 414 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: one thing to go into battle and one thing to 415 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: go into war where you know what the score is, 416 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: you know there are people literally coming at you to 417 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: kill you. You would not expect that treatment among your 418 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 1: commanding officers and your colleagues. Agreed, And so although clearly 419 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: it seems like the three of us are on Veltman's 420 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: side in this pre trial conversation, he lost the argument. 421 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: The trial began on September four of that year. All 422 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: fifty men led not guilty to the charges. But what 423 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: happened next we'll tell you afterward from our sponsor. So 424 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: we have we have a pretty extensive record of the 425 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: ins and outs of the try. Uh. There are a 426 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: lot of there are a lot of not completely above 427 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: board things that happened in this trial. So it came 428 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: out that some of the sailors who have been accused, 429 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: during their interviews, there was an armed guard station there. 430 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: They had. One guy said that Cokelely threatened to shoot 431 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: him if he didn't have an answer. Both sides accused 432 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: the other of coaching the witnesses or the accused. Uh. 433 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:35,959 Speaker 1: There were statements from the superior officers who said things like, okay, 434 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: I directly ordered maybe the six guys to low com munitions, 435 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: and they said no, but I I I can't say 436 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: that I ordered fifty people to do that, let alone 437 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: two fifty eight. Well, yeah, and I think it's is 438 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: it the same officer a different officer who goes on 439 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: to explain that all of the men over whom he 440 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: had command would follow pretty much any order, any at all, 441 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: orders that were given to them, besides the order to 442 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: load more munitions. I think I think it was the 443 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: same person. Yeah, Commander Joseph R. Tobin, Uh, he said, 444 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: And he also said, look, these nobody was being aggressive 445 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: or aggro at me. He didn't say agro, but you 446 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: know what I mean. And he said, no one was 447 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: being disrespectful. They just they just didn't want to do 448 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: this unless they had the proper training. Because again, like 449 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: I said earlier, these guys are trained for combat and 450 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: they just got pulled into munitions because it was a 451 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: micro esque dirty job. And increasingly race played a huge 452 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: public role in this, and some troubling facts emerged both 453 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: about how the how how the commanding officers saw the 454 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: enlisted men and then how they treated them, right, because 455 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: there's some explanations we found. Yeah, and a pretty salacious, 456 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: you know, kind of rumor milly kind of detail emerged 457 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: through some hearsay that was kind of um exposed during 458 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: the trial, and it was the notion that someone was 459 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: heard telling the men, quote, don't go work for those 460 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: white motherfucks. And you know, it was just a claim 461 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: and it wasn't really verifiable, right then, Yeah, you're right. No, 462 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: there's a lot of hearsay that takes place in this 463 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: original trial. It's a lot of well I heard the 464 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: blah blah blah did that, and it's influenced a lot 465 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: by the rank of the person testifying or or speaking. 466 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: But the there was a troubling explanation that emerged in 467 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: the course of this investigation, and it explains why there 468 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: was little regard for safety. It turns out that the 469 00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: officers had a kind of conspiracy or a sport of 470 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: their own, and they were using teams of loaders as 471 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: the pollens in their game. Right, I mean yeah, again, 472 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: we were talking about that cannon fodder situation. Uh, they 473 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: were essentially cracking the whip um and seemingly for their 474 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: own amusement. I mean again, this is this This could 475 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: be taken in many different ways, but possibly as a 476 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: way of increasing productivity or maybe encouraging the men and 477 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: kind of like a playful way to outdo each other. 478 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: But there was um deside this concept that emerged that 479 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: the commanding officers were encouraging races or even like conducting 480 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: requiring races among the teams um with zero regard for 481 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: their safety if they already had any. This was even 482 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: more of an escalation of that absolute disregard for the 483 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: safety of these men, and they were making bets. So 484 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: it's essentially it's it's the most dehumanizing treatments of these 485 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: men who were already being treated pretty inhumanely. Maybe you 486 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: could see it was to be like a motivating thing, right, 487 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: we're getting these out quickly, so maybe it wasn't meant 488 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: to be as dangerous as as it was. They were. Also, 489 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: the longshore union warned them that something bad was going 490 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: to happen when they were moving these munitions, uh so 491 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: quickly and so haphazardly. So to under night of those 492 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: guys don't get charged with mutiny. They get bad conduct discharges, 493 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: which affects their status as veterans, and they have to 494 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: forfeit their pay. But the other men for their pay 495 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: affects their status in always just in life, just using 496 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: all the pay that they would have gotten. Yes, that 497 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: is absolutely correct. And the the other fifty men that 498 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: we call the Port Chicago fifty today we're convicted, we're 499 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,959 Speaker 1: ultimately convicted of mutiny and they were given incredibly cartoonishly 500 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: harsh sentences fifty years of prison along with hard labor, 501 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: along with a dishonorable discharge as a little cherry on 502 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: the top. So now these guys aren't just scapegoats or 503 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: they're not just a diversion right. Uh there, Now they 504 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: are examples to every other member of the Armed services, 505 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: an example that says, step out of line and we 506 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: will put you down. Yeah, and it really did it. 507 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: It painted these fifty men as bad guys. And in 508 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: a way, the Navy is commenting on the twenty men 509 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: who lost their lives in the actual Port Chicago disaster 510 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: by doing this to these fifty men. Um and and 511 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: again we're talking about shifting and blame. It just it's 512 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: just pretty tragic that that occurs. And when it does occur, 513 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: it catches the attention of a lot of people. It 514 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: becomes a fairly large story. And specifically, one person who 515 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: sees it hears about it is a civil rights activists 516 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: and who was the chief a man who was the 517 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: chief Council of the end of a c P at 518 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: the time. Third good Marshal and he steps in and 519 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: uh yeah, I'm just laughing because that guy is like, 520 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: that's the last person you want to be in a 521 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: disagreement with. The man's brilliant, he's driven. I wouldn't like, 522 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: I wouldn't even play scrabble with him. He would rock 523 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: your He's that smart and so he also, of course 524 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: is guided by the principles of justice. He thinks this 525 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: court martial, the entirety of the proceedings, he thinks they're bogus. 526 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: He thinks it's a diversion the way that Matt Nolan 527 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier. Uh, he gets special permission to fly 528 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: into California and he can sit in on the proceedings. 529 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: This guy is a legal legend too at this point, 530 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: so he's sitting in on the proceedings. He can't defend 531 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: anybody like he can't. The terrible comparison would be like, 532 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: you know, like a vampire can't go in your house 533 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: unless you invite them. He's the opposite of vampire. He's 534 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: a cool dude, but he can't interfere officially because he's 535 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: a civilian's a military court. So what he can do 536 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: is advise these people or consult with them. So imagine 537 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 1: being that prosecutor, Uh Cokeley, and you're and you're doing 538 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: some shady stuff to try to get the verdict you 539 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: you want, and then you see just one day, just 540 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: sitting there calmly is third good Marshal. He's watching you 541 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: occasionally he'll take out a pen, write something down, keep 542 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: watching you. It'll make your temperature for sure. Yeah, and 543 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: it's good that he was there. He he went on 544 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: a public campaign with this, and I had public support too. Uh. 545 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: One of the things he called for was a government 546 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: investigation not just into Port Chicago, or not just into 547 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: the poor Chicago fifty, but the Navy's widespread systematic practice 548 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: of assigning African American service members to these segregated support 549 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: roles or putting them in unsafe conditions. And for a 550 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: while it seemed like, uh, this would be a hard 551 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: won battle, but a battle they could win. Eleanor Roosevelt 552 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: got involved and circulated some of the pamphlets, right. Yeah, 553 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: the first lady of the time, she joined up with 554 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: the end of a c P. And they attempted to 555 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: appeal the case because we said, these men got fifteen 556 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: years in prison um and hard labor, and they got 557 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: that dishonorable discharge. So they went in to appeal the case, 558 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure they lost at first, or they weren't. 559 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: They were unable to. They're unsuccessful at appealing the case 560 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: at first. But there were two trials going on. There's 561 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: a court martial proceeding, and then there's the trial of 562 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: public opinion of what everybody is saying because of what 563 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: there good Marshal and several others are writing about the 564 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: subject and the trial and the Port Chicago disaster. M hmm. 565 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: The nation is forced to u to look look at 566 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: itself in the mirror right through through the lens of 567 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: these events and confront its various prejudicial practices. Why we 568 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: ask ourselves in kitchen tables around America at this time, 569 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: why is our government putting black men in the most 570 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: dangerous jobs they can or the most menial jobs, and 571 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: in either case putting them there with no realistic hope 572 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: of advancement or growth path. This is a dead end 573 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: job that could kill you. And then why, you know, 574 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: why are we punishing these people when they refuse to 575 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: accept this. There's a good questions and he's probably kept 576 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: Marshal awake at night for for a long time. He 577 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: poured a lot of his heart and soul in of this. 578 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 1: He went to those fifty guys to see if there 579 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: was some way he could legally represent them instead of 580 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: just having conversations with him, and he had to get 581 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: explicit written permission from each of these fifty men to 582 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,959 Speaker 1: make an appeal for them. And he did it, Yes, 583 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: he did indeed. And on April third nine, Marshall went 584 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: to d C to present his case, and he pointed 585 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: out that the prosecution had misled the court on the 586 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: definition of mutiny. I think we all felt pretty pretty 587 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: hard from the start. He also pointed out that the 588 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: Navy had in some ways been looking for someone to 589 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: blame or scapegoat for the disaster, as also seemed pretty 590 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: clear to any kind of casual observer here and here's 591 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: a great quote from his his testimony or from his 592 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: presentation quote. The accused were made scapegoats in a situation 593 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: brought about by a combination of circumstances. Justice can only 594 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: be done in this case by a complete reversal of 595 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: the findings. Wow. Yeah, I mean it makes total sense. Um. 596 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: And then what happened afterwards, it's just we'll just describe 597 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: it to you. After the war, the Navy wasn't able 598 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: to justify the sentences. The Navy was like, yeah, um, 599 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: so we see all this writing, we see the appeal. Yeah, um, okay, 600 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: you know when it was wartime, you know, back when 601 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: we were doing all that this kind of made sense, 602 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: like the overly punitive sentences were you know, sending example, 603 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: so that we don't lose a bunch of other sailors 604 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: or soldiers somewhere else during the war, because we kind 605 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: of need everybody. Um, and you know, we just put 606 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 1: fifty guys in jail for fifteen years. But now that 607 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: the war is over, Yeah, maybe that is a little harsh. Yeah. 608 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: Now I don't know if we can just uh, if 609 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 1: we can continue going this this hard on the punishment paint. 610 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: So in September, this is you know, as you said, man, 611 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: after the those of the war, the Navy first shortens 612 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,959 Speaker 1: each of these fifteen year mutiny sentences by one year, 613 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: and the next month, Captain Harold Stasson says, I think 614 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: we reduce these sentences all the way down to two 615 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: years for people who have good conduct, three years for 616 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: the rest, and then give them credit for time served. 617 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: H January six six, the Navy released forty seven of 618 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: the Chicago Port fifty and then immediately sent them to 619 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 1: active duty aboard ships on the Pacific, where they were 620 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: often relegated to menial labor. Getting jailed by your employer 621 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: essentially then told all right, you're done in with jail, 622 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: Come on back, get on another ship, get out of here. 623 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: I wonder what podcast jail is like for podcast prison. 624 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: Somebody's gonna tell us that there's a difference between podcast 625 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: jail and podcast prison. Sure, Oh, I don't know. I 626 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: think it's just all ad reads. So you have to 627 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: do ad reads all day long without stopping. They're all 628 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: ad reads about the podcast laws you broke, boy. But 629 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: the stute listeners will notice we said forty seven of 630 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 1: these fifty men, there are three left. Two of those 631 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: fifty prisoners stayed in the prisons hospital for months. They 632 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: were recuperating from injuries, and there was one guy who 633 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: had a what they called a bad conduct record. But 634 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: this story, what's so weird about this is that there 635 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: first there was a conspiracy on the part of the Navy. 636 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: I think that's fair to say, to find someone to blame. Uh, 637 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: there was an alleged conspiracy on the part of the 638 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: men at Mare Island to not die, which is a 639 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: conspiracy we all sort of participate in on a normal day, 640 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: I imagine. But then this series of events ultimately led 641 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: to the desegregation of the military. It ultimately gave the 642 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: the U. S Military, something that uh, other folks at 643 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: first blush might think is counterintuitive. It made the military 644 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: a very progressive institution on paper, at least in terms 645 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: of gender, in terms of race or religious belief, etcetera, 646 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: because in President Truman desegregated the whole thing, not just 647 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: the Navy, everything else, the militaries at least the militaries 648 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: at least. Yeah, and the story, the story doesn't in there, however, No, 649 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: this rippled outward into practically the present day. In the 650 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: Freddie Meeks, one of the few surviving UM members of 651 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: the Port Chicago fifty, was asked to was encouraged to 652 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: petition the President of the United States for a part end. 653 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: And you know, this is the kind of stuff whereas 654 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,919 Speaker 1: his sort of looks at things through a more progressive lens, 655 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: These are the types of things that pardons make a 656 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 1: lot of sense for, right um. So, others of the 657 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: Port Chicago fifty had refused to ask for a pardon um, 658 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 1: reasoning that it implied guilt on their part, that only 659 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: guilty people needed to receive forgiveness, like it was some 660 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: kind of absolution um, acknowledging that their their crime had 661 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: been committed um so they continued to hold firm on 662 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: that position, the position being that they were not guilty 663 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: of mutiny in the first place, which I think we've again, 664 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: through that modern lens, pretty unequivocally proven. Yeah, and again 665 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: you can look at YouTube videos and a bunch of 666 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: writing on this right now. There's one YouTube video from 667 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,720 Speaker 1: NBC Bay Area and it's called the Port Chicago Disaster, 668 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: so many five years later, where you can hear a 669 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: story from a man named William William Ross who was 670 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: who was a survivor from the Port Chicago disaster, and 671 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,120 Speaker 1: you know, you can hear his story, you can or 672 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: the story of several writers who have been researching this 673 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: for a long time, and you can hear that argument 674 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: against pardon, and it's a really strong argument to to 675 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,319 Speaker 1: say pardon is not the right thing here. Exoneration is 676 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,360 Speaker 1: the only way forward for this right right, and that 677 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: I I agree that that is a solid argument. Meeks 678 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: logic for applying for a pardon is to was to 679 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: bring more public awareness to these events and to the 680 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice. It was successful to a degree. In 681 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 1: December of then President Clinton pardon Meeks, who would go 682 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: on to pass away in June of two thousand and three, 683 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 1: and efforts to posthumously not pardon, but exonerate all fifty 684 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 1: sailors continue to this day. The story is in. It 685 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: takes us to a better place, but it's by no 686 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 1: beings done yet. If you were in the area, you 687 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:03,320 Speaker 1: can check out the Port chicag Go Naval Magazine national memorial, 688 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 1: which was dedicated in to the hundreds of lives lost 689 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,439 Speaker 1: in the explosion. And there for now until we get 690 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,400 Speaker 1: more news. Uh, the episode draws to a close. What 691 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: do you think, folks? It It is somewhat rare. Long 692 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 1: time listeners, you know this. It is somewhat rare for 693 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: us to have an episode with a happy ending of 694 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: like any sort. And this is sort of a happy 695 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,319 Speaker 1: ending because justice is slowly being done and it led 696 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,279 Speaker 1: to tremendous I would say, cultural advancements in this country. 697 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: But it's not over. I don't know. No, it's not over. 698 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: And you know, there's something that we didn't touch on here, 699 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: and it's not even really worth looking into. But because 700 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: of the nature of this explosion, how large it was, 701 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: and how very little was left behind, it's very difficult 702 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 1: to prove what caused what what is the thing that 703 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: sparked the explosion? You know, yes, and of course you 704 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,320 Speaker 1: could get lost in rumor and you know, just thinking 705 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: about that as well, what could it have been? You know, 706 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: an attack from the outside, and you just go down 707 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: that rabbit hole forever. But in the end, in all likelihood, 708 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: it was an accident that caused it. And that's why this, 709 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, is so important, um, to talk about the 710 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 1: way the Navy handled the men that it caused an 711 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: accident because they weren't they didn't know what they were doing. Um. 712 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: But again, there still lies in there the possibility that 713 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,239 Speaker 1: it was something else, UM. And I think that has 714 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,759 Speaker 1: fueled that has fueled some discussion of this disaster for 715 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: quite a time. I don't have any answers there, but 716 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: it is something you could look into if you're interested, 717 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: Like what if? What what if this was a cover 718 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 1: up for something even more embarrassing an attack, right, a 719 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:58,000 Speaker 1: successful enemy attack or sabotage of Port Chicago, which in 720 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 1: that case makes it makes the Navy and Uncle Sam 721 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: look even worse because instead of pining up the truth, 722 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 1: they doubled down and blamed blamed these guys. That's that's terrible. 723 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: But you're absolutely right. The official the official explanation is unknown. 724 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: Like it's literally we don't know what happened. We just 725 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: know that something made one thing explode, which made other 726 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: things explode, which made other things explode. Now really tragic, man, 727 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: And and I would advance another thing here at the 728 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: at the end of our time together today. What what 729 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 1: other stories like this are out there? I'm sure there 730 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: are many. I am sure that scapegoating soldiers is not 731 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: something restricted to the United States or to the modern era. 732 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: What stories like this have you heard from your neck 733 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: of the global woods. Have you experienced something like this firsthand? 734 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: If so, let us know. We try to be easy 735 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 1: to find. We're on Facebook, We're on Instagram, We're on Twitter. 736 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: Check us out at Here's where it gets crazy, which 737 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 1: is our Facebook community page. But wait, you say, I 738 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: I hate social media. You guys are great. I just 739 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 1: I can't do it. I don't even talk to my 740 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: mom on Facebook. Well that's fine, we have another way 741 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: for you get in touch with us. Well, first call 742 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,640 Speaker 1: your mom, then immediately dial one eight three three st 743 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: d W y t K and leave us a message 744 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: um three minutes if you please, or less. And you 745 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: might find you. Let us know if it's okay to 746 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: use what you want us to call you, if it's 747 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,400 Speaker 1: okay to use your audio, and you might hear yourself 748 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 1: in one of our weekly listener mail episodes. And if 749 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: you don't want to do that, you can of course, Well, 750 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: what's another good way to reach us guys? Oh, I 751 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: know there's that old fashioned email that we keep around 752 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 1: that a lot of you right into and we read 753 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,080 Speaker 1: every week, every day of every week. It is conspiracy 754 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: at I heart bread dot com. Stuff they don't want 755 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,320 Speaker 1: you to know. Is a production of I heart Radio. 756 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 757 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,840 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 758 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:29,720 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.