1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Yea Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I drove up to 2 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: the house, and I went into the garage, and I 3 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: went up to the house, and I noticed that the 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 1: outside lights weren't on, and I remember thinking that that 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: was odd because Greg usually left him on when he 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: knew that I was going to be late. But you know, 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: I didn't think it was anything major. I just remember 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: thinking it was odd. I walked up the steps and 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: I put the key in the door, and when I 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: pushed the door open, I turned on the light and 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: I saw Greg. Well, it all happened in a matter 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: of like not even a second, I don't think, and 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: I remember seeing things near him, like a candlestick and 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: a pillow, and can I remember I thought. The first 15 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: thing I thought was to go get help. And I said, 16 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: I said Greg, Greg's name, and he didn't didn't answer, 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: and I ran out. It all happened really fast. Pam 18 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: Smart is in the thick of it, trying her best 19 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: to get out of jail. I Meanancy Grace, this is 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. But how 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: did it all start? Eighteen year old Pam Wojus was 22 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: a freshman in college who loved a party and she 23 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: was instantly drawn to Greg Smart. She sat next to 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: him down on the couch and started flirting with him 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: and twirling his hair with his rocker haircut and boy's smile. 26 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: Twenty year old Greg was just Pam's type. Greg was 27 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: a great guy and if somebody said, hey, let's go 28 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: away for the weekend and it was Friday night, he 29 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: would go. He always lived like that. Greg was also 30 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: known as a ladies man. Greg was seeing, as usual 31 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of other girls. A lot of the girls 32 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: seemed to flock to him, But soon after Greg met Pam, 33 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 1: he began to change his ways and settle down. Over time, 34 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: it's slowly got more serious and more serious. Pam was 35 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: very excited about her relationship with Greg. She used to 36 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: write poems and she sent me a lot of them. 37 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: When Greg surprised Pam with an engagement ring in January 38 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty eight, she accepted. And that is how 39 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: it all started at a party when she was just 40 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: eighteen years old. How did it all end? In murder? 41 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: And what's happening right now? Joining me an all star 42 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: panel to break it down and put it back together again? 43 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: Doctor Daniel Bober Forensics psychiatrists joining us all the way 44 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: from Rome. Doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of 45 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Joseph Scott Morgan forensics expert, Professor 46 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: Forensics Jacksonville State University, an author of Blood Beneath My 47 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon. Ashley Willcott, judge, trial lawyer and anchor 48 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: at Ashley Wilcott dot Com. Right now to Crime online 49 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Dave Matt. Dave, explain to me 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: when Pama Smart gets home, what does she find in 51 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: her home? She finds her husband of less than one 52 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: year on the ground and the apartment apparently in disarray. 53 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: He's on the ground what appears to be a gunshot 54 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: wound to the head. Police suddenly have three suspects in 55 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: the murder, seventeen year old j R. Lattimy and his 56 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: friends sixteen year old Pete Randolph and sixteen year old 57 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: Billy Flynn. They're kind of a rough group of kids. 58 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: They had been involved in some minor crimes, but petty 59 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: crime is one thing. Could they really have committed a murder? 60 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't take long for detectives to identify a possible 61 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: link between the three boys and Grant Smart his wife Pam. 62 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: The teenagers are students at Win, a kind of high 63 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: school where Pamela Smart works. Two of the boys are 64 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: students in her media course. They were making a video together. 65 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: Pam Smart was the coordinator. The kids are the talent. 66 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: Two of the high school students are in her class. 67 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: That's a connection. You're hearing our friends at Real Crime, 68 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: Real Story with Aaron Brockovich. So they're all kids, they're 69 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: all teams in Flynn. The sixteen year old reportedly was 70 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: more than just a student. She sat me down in 71 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: a chair. And what did you say? She said, I 72 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: think I'm in love with Bill? And what did you 73 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: say to that? I laughed? Was ridiculous? How ridiculous? Why 74 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: would ridiculous? Because she was married? She was twenty two? 75 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: What did he do when you laugh? She just kept 76 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: telling me over and over again, I'm serious. So what 77 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: happened after that? I'm about a week Lana? She told, Now, 78 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: do you have any part I'm talking to Bill about this? 79 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: I told Bill Pam wanted to see him, and you 80 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: said about a week later? She told Bill audio was 81 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: a week later? I'm how positive? That's when she she 82 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: told me that she told him about a week law. 83 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: You are hearing who I believe to be the star 84 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: witness in the case, Cecilia Pierce, Now Pam's Smart, the 85 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: teacher in her twenties, takes this teen girl under her wing, 86 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: so to speak. But then when she said you could 87 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: eat a divorce with Joe Gregor, thank you serious? I 88 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: thought that she was serious, but that she wouldn't do it. 89 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: I have it done. And how much? How often were 90 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: you having these conversations with the defendant at this time? 91 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: At first I was just saying every few days and 92 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,119 Speaker 1: then it was every day. And what kind of things 93 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: would you be talking about? What was going on so far? 94 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: Like what they had discussed last period her and Bill 95 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: had discussed, and what they had decided upon, things like 96 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: to where they had tied back and twere dot clothes 97 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: and to make it look like a burglary. Wow, that's 98 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: getting very, very involved, an intricate planning, going so far 99 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: as to what they would wear, what to do with 100 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: their hair when the incident, the murder would take place. 101 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: To Dave Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, what 102 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: really links Pamela Smart to her husband Gregg's murder? Well, 103 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: actually the police with Celia Pears, they actually wired her up. 104 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: She agreed to help the police because she just couldn't 105 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: stand this anymore. And actually Pam Smart gave her own 106 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: incriminating statement. They picked it up on the wire where 107 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: she actually said, if you tell the police what you know, 108 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: we're all going to be locked in the slammer. Tell me, 109 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: Dave Mack what happens At trial with all the other 110 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: co conspirators, the boyfriend, his friends, the prosecution cut deals 111 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: with just about with everybody except Pam Smart. At trial, 112 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: Billy Flynn testified, as did Patrick Randall, Jarl a lot 113 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: of me. They all testified as to their specific roles 114 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: in this crime, and they all had deals negotiated with 115 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: the prosecution because ultimately, the prosecution determined early on, if 116 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: not for Pam Smart orchestrating all of this, it would 117 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: not have happened. She's even admitted as much that it 118 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: was her relationship with Billy that cost Gregg's life. It's 119 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: just a matter of what the police have indicated they've 120 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: built their case around, is that she was the instigator 121 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: of everything. And at trial, Billy Flynn was an incredibly 122 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: credible witness. He cried on the stand. I'll never forget 123 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: actually seeing him. When the prosecutor said what was What 124 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: did you say? And he said, right before I shot him, 125 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: I pointed the gun at his head and I said, God, 126 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: please forgive me, and it pulled the trigger. So Billy 127 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: Flynn admits to what happened. Take a listener. The man 128 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: who spent decades in prison for his role in the 129 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: sex and murder scandal that rocked it in the Hampshire 130 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: community is now a freeman. All of this unfolding in 131 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: the overnight hours. Billy Flynn was just sixteen years old 132 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: when he and a friend killed his high school teacher's husband. 133 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: He was granted parole in March. A rather bizarre scene 134 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: overnight at the prison where Flynn spent the last twenty 135 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: five years of his life. What you heard was other 136 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: inmates cheering as a convicted killer left by the back door. 137 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: At his parole hearing, Flynn apologized to the family of 138 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: Greg's smart. He says he hopes to find a job 139 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: after earning his degree while in prison, but he knows 140 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: that will be difficult. Pam's Art was convicted of helping 141 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: Flynn and another teenager planned the killing of her husband 142 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety. She is serving life in prison without 143 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: the chance of parole. Patrick Randall, the other team who 144 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: participated in the killing, is also scheduled for release. Today 145 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Pam Smart is trying her 146 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: best to get out of jail. I Meancy Grace, this 147 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Let 148 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: me ask you this. Dave Matt Billy fan Lay's prison. 149 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: He's the trigger person. He admitted to what he did. 150 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: What did the co conspirator do? What was his part? 151 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: What did the others do? Not? Pam Smart? Patrick Randall 152 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: was sentenced to the same thing as Billy Flynn. He 153 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: was right there inside the home with Billy Flynn when 154 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: it took place, when the shooting occurred, and he got 155 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: the same type of treatment that Billy Flynn got. Now, 156 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: they did have a co conspirator who was the getaway driver. 157 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: His name was Vance Vladimy. He was sentenced to life 158 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: in prison as an accomplice and he was let out 159 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: of jail several years ago. He wasn't sentenced to the 160 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: same thing. They did have one of the co conspirator 161 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: that was Raymond Fowler. He actually just waited in the car. Okay, 162 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: he was there with him. Again, two boys went inside, 163 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: Billy and Patrick Vance, and Raymond stayed in the car, 164 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: but they were all part of this conspiracy. Raymond Fowler 165 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: was charged with conspiracy and attempted burglary and he was 166 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: sentenced to prison as well, but he was also released 167 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: back many years ago. So while we hear the boyfriend 168 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: as we call him, admitting that he said God forgive 169 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: me and then pulls a trigger, he admits that what 170 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: about Pam Smart Dave Mack? Has she ever admitted she 171 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: was part of the conspiracy to kill her husband? No? 172 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: You know, the only thing she's even come close to 173 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: admitting in terms of guilt is she actually and this 174 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: is a real problem, She's never admitted her role. She's 175 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: never admitted what they proved in court beyond the shadow 176 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: of a doubt. Her only comment, and this is what 177 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: she says by and this is a Greg quote. Although 178 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: I never wanted nor asked mister Flynn to murder Greg, 179 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: I will forever carry the blame and guilt. And that's 180 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: the one statement from her that has a you know, 181 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: where she claims that, yeah, she's guilty, but not for 182 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: asking him to do it. She's guilty because she had 183 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: a relationship with Billy Flynn. As a matter of fact, 184 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: listen to Pam Smart and day after day after game 185 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: megativity and unchunced about me and tying the heart. I 186 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: think that I'm not a defense mechanis down and I 187 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,599 Speaker 1: believed part of that is because I come from a 188 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: family there he learned to deal with whatever problems happened 189 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: by just remaining strong and standing strong and not being 190 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: like weak and willows, so to speak, over whatever happened. 191 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: I'm more of a private person what I deal with 192 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: my own pain, on my own emotion. So for me 193 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: to be only twenty two years old, it tends to 194 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: be twenty four at the time and have what I 195 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: thought was my whole future with him just completely obliterated 196 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: and having to deal at such a young age with 197 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: funeral and weight, and then the fact that Bill Sin 198 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: was arrested and I had relationship to care and then 199 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: finding out that it looked like he did it or 200 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: his friends did it, and then I was arrested. It 201 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: was just like one thing after another after another, And 202 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: I think part of my being able to completely shut out. Okay, 203 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: so it's all about her to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic 204 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: psychiatrists joining us. Even now, it's still all about how 205 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: this affected her life, how her future was quote obliterated. 206 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: Not once. Do you hear her talk about the victim, Greg, 207 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: of course yes, because she's a malignant narcissist. All she 208 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: cares about is herself, her fame, her recognition. That's what 209 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: it was about all the time, and that's what it's 210 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: about now. Okay, it's not just that. Listen to this 211 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: Pam Smart in her own words, not anything. But the 212 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: journy was doing reading a transcript but I don't even 213 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: know her how transcribe from their boat, and I was 214 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: to hear pieces of it and I was reading their compensation. 215 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: But the page, I was noticing that there were things 216 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: that were attributed to me, that it was actually are 217 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: talking for things that were atticted to her, and it 218 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: was actually me talking because I've voice have sounded similar 219 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: on me because they were so horriful. And after what 220 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: happened too, is that when you have a conversation, even 221 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: like the one I'm having with you right now, they're 222 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: interjesting in my conversation saying right, yes, that's when we 223 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: do when we have conversation. Right on the paper, she's saying, oh, 224 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: so you want a great dead, and then I say yeah, 225 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: But that's that's not how the conversation was going. It 226 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: wasn't a response to necessarily whatever you just say. It 227 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: was just the natural course of listening to a person 228 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: and saying yeah, okay. I don't think I would even 229 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: say yeah, okay if someone mentioned I want my husband dead, 230 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: which of course I don't, not until I renew that 231 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: life insurance policy. But aside from that, what a bunch 232 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: of bs. All this time later, she's still attacking the 233 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: transcript and so you know what that means. That means 234 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: that that is what convicted her. That's what she's angry about. 235 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: To doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists. All this time later, 236 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: she's still talking about the transcripts of the taped conversation 237 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: she was having with Cecilia Pierce about how it was wrong. 238 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: Does she not remember the jury heard it for themselves, 239 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: they were reading it, and not only that, Cecilia Pierce 240 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: testified and said what they talked about and what happened 241 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: then the tapes came into evidence. So what does that mean? 242 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: Doctor Bober she's still that's string over the tapes, and 243 00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: she's still not admitting that she orchestrated her husband's murder. Well, 244 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think she feels obviously betrayed, 245 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: but you know, it's sort of one of those what 246 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: about is M's like, well, yeah, you're saying I did this, 247 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: but what about this? This is what this person did 248 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: to me. So again, it's all about her, and that's 249 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: the focus. All about her. Okay, let me understand to 250 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: Dave Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Dave, what's 251 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: happening now, because you've told me that Billy Flynn, the boyfriend, triggerman, 252 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: he's out. The others, they're all out except for her. 253 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: She has routinely requested many different things over the years, 254 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: but her final and last request that she could actually make, 255 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: and this is what's being discussed now, is the fact 256 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: that she wants her sentence to be shortened. That's what 257 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: they did. In the case of Billy and and Patrick, 258 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: they actually were able to get their sentence changed by 259 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: a couple of years so they could actually be released 260 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: on bail on par all Rather, in the case of Smart, 261 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: she wants the same type of compassionate release, if you 262 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: want to call it that. They're asking for a reduction 263 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: in her sentence so that she can actually be eligible 264 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: for parole, which she is not right now. But the 265 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: others to ask you, Willcott, judge and trial lawyer have 266 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: all confessed, they said their part. So how do you 267 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: give parole to someone that never acknowledges what they did? 268 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: I think that's the big hold up for her. Oh, 269 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: I agree with you, because they don't. Right. One of 270 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: the questions that's asked that every parole hearing is do 271 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: you admit, acknowledge, take responsibility for the crime you've been 272 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: convicted of? And if the answers no, well guess what 273 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: you're not going to get is parole. And she continues 274 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: to claim she was not involved. I mean, hasn't anybody's 275 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: seen Oceans eleven? I mean, that's the first thing George 276 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: Clooney does. He sits down to the parole hearing and 277 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: lies to his teeth about how he admits guilt and 278 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: he's never going to do it again. He's changed his ways, 279 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: and he gets out and he robs the casino. Okay, 280 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,479 Speaker 1: So that's how the Pardner parole board works. You have 281 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: to acknowledge what happened before you can. It's kind of 282 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: like a Catharsis and start over, or at least that's 283 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: what they expect before they give you parole. Bam, Do 284 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: you agree or disagree? Ashley? I agree. That's exactly right, 285 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: and that is universal. That is true in every state 286 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: in the nation. That is not unique. That is how 287 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: it works. Crime stories with Nancy Grace So the trigger 288 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: man Flynn to sixteen at the time of the murder, 289 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: tells police along with the others, that it was all 290 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: smarts idea. She orchestrated the entire plot. She left the 291 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: entrance to her apartment open for them to surprise her husband. 292 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: They held a knife to his face, shot him, and 293 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: then they try to stage a burglary. Smart herself says 294 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: she started a sex affair with the boy in revenge 295 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: because her husband had a one night stand. That's neither 296 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: here nor there, but right now, Pam Smart wants out 297 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: of jail. She's been behind bars for thirty years for 298 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: conspiring to kill her husband. Greg So, I don't understand 299 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: what is the new trend, the new trend of second looks. 300 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: What is that? Dave Mack, It's the opportunity for somebody 301 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: who's been convicted of a crime to seek a hearing 302 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: to basically reiterate what this person wasn't really involved in 303 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: her case. She didn't pull the trigger, she wasn't at 304 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: the scene, and she was an involved bystander, is what 305 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: they're trying to argue. And it's using that she refers 306 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: to it as ancillary. Aciliary, Yeah, ancillary to the crime, 307 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: meaning you know what like a getaway driver can have 308 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: there if they've been convicted of a murder, you know, 309 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: they can actually appeal and get a hearing to have 310 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: their sentence reduced because they didn't actually pull the trigger. 311 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: They were merely driving the car. And that's that was 312 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: actually the argument used by by Pam Smart in of 313 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: last several years. That's what she's been pushing for because 314 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: she was sentenced to life, but if they can get 315 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: a reduction in sentence that would make her eligible for parole. 316 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: That's exactly what Billy Friend did, by the way, he 317 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: got that reduction at a hearing and he was out 318 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: on parole and he admitted he did it an expressed 319 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: remorse to Ashley Wilcott. What is the second look trend? 320 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: It look it is, like you already pointed out, Nancy, 321 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: that does exist in a couple of states. It's legislation 322 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: and what it is. And there is a Second Look 323 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: Amendment Act of twenty nineteen, and in that it establishes 324 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: what's called a Board of Indeterminate Sentence in Parole and 325 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: it's to determine including things like individuals who committed an 326 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: offense before age twenty five in the existing sentence modification process. 327 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: So what does that mean in plain English? It means 328 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: that they would give a second look to those individuals 329 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: who committed offense before age twenty five, and it may 330 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: change some of the rules we've been talking about. Let 331 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: me ask you this, after all these years, doctor Daniel Bober. 332 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: The victim's family lives through the trial, lives through the crime, 333 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: all the pain after that, how do you think they're 334 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: feeling about second looks? Well, I mean, listen, I mean 335 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: it's a very emotionally charged situation, Nancy. But this sort 336 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: of second look business kind of I think is in 337 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: the same vein of Roper v. Simmon in the case 338 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: about you know, not executing people under eighteen and recognizing 339 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: that certain people, because of their age, may not have 340 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: the same degree of culpability as people who are older. 341 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: So I understand where it's coming from. But if you're 342 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: the family of a victim, you're not going to be 343 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: very understanding of that argument. Joseph Scott Morgan to yet 344 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: Pardner parole. You have to demonstrate change behavior. What has 345 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: her history been like behind ours? It's not been good, Nancy. 346 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: She's been in multiple altercations, multiple violations. You know, she's 347 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: not even in New Hampshire any longer. In the women's 348 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: state prison there. They had to transfer her to the 349 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: New York State facility because she had snitched out two 350 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: women in the prison that we're involved in a relationship, 351 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: and she got beaten up pretty badly as a result 352 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: of that. She's got a history of being rather noncompliant, 353 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: non cooperative with the jail staff. Why do you think 354 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: that is. Is it something to do with authority? You know, 355 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, Nancy, but it would seem that she 356 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: acts particularly snitching out these two women that are just 357 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: engaged in a relationship there in prison. It would seem 358 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: that she feels like she knows better than everybody else. 359 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: She just cannot abide by the rules. And I think 360 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: that this is a thread that might run through this 361 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: woman's life, and it wasn't just about love. She refutes 362 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: the boyfriend's claims, made a trial, but they all say 363 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: she paid him and his friends five hundred dollars each 364 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: to kill her husband and make it look like a burglary, 365 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: including her leaving the door on the locks who they 366 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: could get in. What about that, Dave Matt, You hardly 367 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: ever hear about the fact that she allegedly paid them 368 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: to commit murder. If I'm not mistaken, Nancy, she volunteered 369 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: to pay them that out of one hundred and forty 370 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: thousand dollars in insurance money she was going to get 371 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: from the death of Greg Smart. So you had that 372 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: money motive into his murder as well, you know, in 373 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: my mind to you asked she will caught that as 374 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: a whole nother leer to this, that she actually offered 375 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: to pay money out of her dead husband's life insurance proceeds. 376 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: That's pretty cold blood, very cold blood, And all of 377 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: these things together add up to prove, in my mind, 378 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: and a jury found this beyond a reasonable doubt, that look, 379 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: there was a motive that she wanted to kill him. 380 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: She'd only been married a year. She wanted the money. 381 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: She had the means by hiring juveniles, don't forget that, 382 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: and hiring one of them to actually pull the trigger. 383 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: This evidence. You know, sometimes you hear about cases in 384 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: the news and the evidence sounds like wow, circumstantial, a 385 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: jury convicted. But maybe this isn't the right or enough evidence. 386 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: This is not one of those cases. In my mind, 387 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: I think with the amount of evidence they have against her, 388 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: the motive of the money from the life insurance policy, 389 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: from having him killed, I think it seals the deal. 390 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: Pama Smart speaking out now amidst a brand new legal 391 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: bid to have her life sentence reduced, saying she fears 392 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: dying of old age behind bars. While her husband was 393 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 1: murdered in his early twenties. As a matter of fact, 394 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: he was restrained by Pete Randall while Billy Flynn, her lover, 395 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: shot him in the head. Now they were both free 396 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: at the same time. The accomplices Vance Vladimy Junior and 397 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: Raymond Fowler also walked from jail early. But this has 398 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: somehow turned into some sort of a feminist argument, claiming 399 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: in some way that the guys got out, but she, 400 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: the woman, is still behind Bars, I don't see it 401 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: that way at all. I see it as she is 402 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: the only one refusing to admit guilt and show any 403 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: remorse over her part in her husband's murder. That has 404 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: been the point of contention throughout all the appeals. So 405 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: have you ever seen anybody like that, Joe Scott in 406 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: all the cases you've handled and processed for someone I 407 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: compared to Scott Peterson, he would rather go down for 408 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: a life without parole than take a plea and admit 409 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: he did it. Yeah, at the end, Nancy, I think 410 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: that it all comes down to this personality and their 411 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: perception of reality. And you know what's really sad about 412 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: this is Greg Smart. He's a person that kind of 413 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: gets diminished in all of this that, like so many 414 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: of these cases, they're they're collateral damage in these people's 415 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: mind where they're just thrown away like a piece of 416 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: garbage and they don't care. The same with Lacy and 417 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: that baby. It's the same thing over and over and 418 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: over again. Doctor Bober speaks right to the heart of it. 419 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: In this particular case we're talking about. You know, this 420 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder that these people have, and they are 421 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: just so bitten by this thing that they cannot see 422 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: the forest for the trees. As a matter of fact, 423 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: in a recent and very defiant interview, she says, quote, 424 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: I want the world to know that my incarceration is unjust. 425 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: My trial was unfair, and I am being held in 426 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: prison for a crime I did not commit. Okay, you 427 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: know what she's saying behind mars. Anybody have a thought 428 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: on that, bober. Do you really believe they're going to 429 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: let her out if she's still not a manty guilt. 430 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: It's so funny, the languages. It's like this mythic struggle, 431 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: and she's been unjustly convicted. You know, she's almost making 432 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: it like a reality TV show right from her jail cell. 433 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: And I don't think she has any chance of getting out. 434 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: I agree, you know what, Admit responsibility and move on. 435 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: That ain't happening. And it's all because Pam Smart still 436 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: refuses to admit what happened the night her husband was murdered. 437 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: Dave Mack the New Hampshire Executive Council. It is a 438 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: state council made up of five members. The vote was 439 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: for zero because one person abstained from voting. Let me 440 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: understand how this works, because not every state has it 441 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: there you have to in New Hampshire, you have to 442 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: go to this council. They decide whether you get a 443 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: second chance hearing. And even with one thousand pages of documents, 444 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: not once does she admit guilt. And that was the 445 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: big problem Nancy. This was her last chance to get 446 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: this state council to of her that second look hearing. 447 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: And in that where everything's on the line. You know 448 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: you used the Danny Ocean reference where he sits there, 449 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: smiles and tells him exactly what they want to hear 450 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: so he can get out and go. Robert Casino, Yeah, 451 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: I totally believe him, and I even knew what was 452 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: going to happen in the case. She could not do it. 453 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: She is so stuck on herself. She couldn't bring herself 454 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: to do the one thing that would have guaranteed her 455 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: that hearing. If she says, you know what, I was 456 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: involved with this kid, and I did I shouldn't have 457 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: done it. I feel horrible about it. Greg should be alive. 458 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: But you know I concocted this whole thing. If she 459 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 1: did that, she would have got the hearing, and she 460 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: would have got out and you know another thing. Dave 461 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: Mack Andrew Valinski, the one that abstained, stated that this 462 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: vote for to zero ensured she would never get a hearing, 463 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: But you know, Ashley willcot under our system. Never say never. 464 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: Charles Manson died of old age, Okay and ailments behind bars. 465 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: At the time of his trial. Everybody thought he would 466 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: get the death penalty. You never know what's going to happen. 467 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: But I would predict that Pam Smart will get another 468 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: hearing of some sort. I don't know whether it will 469 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: be granted or not, but I think she will get 470 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: another hearing. And I think it's important for everyone in 471 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: the listeners to remember Nancy that laws change, New laws 472 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: come on the books for different reasons, and there could 473 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: be a new law at any point in time in 474 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: New Hampshire that is one under which she can seek 475 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: recourse and could be released. So I absolutely agree with you, 476 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: especially in our criminal justice system. Never say never. We 477 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: just don't know. In a recent jailhouse interview, Pam Smart 478 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: calls the rejection of her parole hearing completely unfair. She 479 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: believes it's unfair that she stays behind mars while the 480 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: trigger man has been set free. Now catch this. This 481 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: is some interesting wording, she says, quote, it took me 482 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: years of working on myself in therapy, growth and maturity 483 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: to accept fault. And her fault is the only fault 484 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: that she accepts is that as the media coordinator at 485 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: a high school in Hnton, Hampshire, she started a sex 486 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: relationship with Billy Flynn, a student. That's it. She in 487 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: no way accepts fault. To doctor Daniel Bober, she would 488 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: have to admit she did this and accept fault to 489 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: hope for parole. Why won't she do it? Well, I 490 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: think she has to maintain her innocence all the way, 491 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: and I think her ego issued so huge that I 492 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: don't think it will allow her to admit that she's 493 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: responsible for the crime, even though all the evidence points 494 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: that way and she was convicted. Well, right now, Pam 495 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: Smart sits behind bars, refusing to acknowledge her part in 496 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: a brutal murder. But I guarantee you we ain't seen 497 00:30:40,760 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: the last of her yet. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 498 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: I have been a felony prosecutor in inner city Atlanta 499 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: for over a decade. I have been a journalist over 500 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: twenty years. I've handled and covered literally thousands of cases. 501 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: Of all of those cases, the injustice of some just 502 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: stick with me. Wrongful accusations. I don't know these sentences 503 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: that don't fit the crime, victims cries for help ignored. 504 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: Many cases may have been resolved in courts, but not 505 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: resolved in my mind. Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, and 506 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: before I say another word about our upcoming series Injustice 507 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace on Oxygen, listen to this. With every 508 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: minute that passes, you're losing the chance of finding the 509 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: person much less alive. They're out there all night, all 510 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: Lake Seminole, a law enforcement they're thinking, how could he 511 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: survive through the night? Not a trace? Everything runs through 512 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 1: your head everything. Could he have been the victim of 513 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: a burglary? I mean, we didn't really know what had 514 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: happened to Mike. So if he wasn't in the lake, 515 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: where could he be? Oh that horrible, horrible feeling trying 516 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: to figure out what happened. You're hearing Mike's friend Clay 517 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: catch him. A young dad, a husband, a loving husband, 518 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: I might add, says he's going out duck hunting and 519 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: he never comes home. I've been to Lake Seminole, many, 520 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: many times, dark, dark waters. If you look out on it, 521 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: it's very eerie looking. Even in the daytime when you 522 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: drive by, you'll look out and it's vast. You can't 523 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: even see the other side to it at some points, 524 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: and the water looks black even in the daytime. And 525 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: what makes it so eerie look to me stumps, dark 526 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: stumps jutting out of the water, and they're sharp. They're 527 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: sharp on the edges like spikes in there throughout Lake Semnole. 528 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how anybody boats on it or fishes 529 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: on it or hunts on it with all those stumps, 530 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: and what's under the water is scarier. They're gators there, 531 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: for real gaiters. So how this is a sportsman's paradise, 532 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: I really don't know. But I do know that this 533 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: young dad, Mike Williams, goes out duck hunting he loved hunting. 534 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: Early early on a morning. He promises to come back 535 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: because very important, it's his anniversary. He and his wife 536 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: already have one baby girl named Annesley, Love Love, Love Annesley. 537 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: They want to add to their family. And that evening, 538 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: after he gets back from duck hunting, and she does 539 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 1: what she has to do that day, they're heading for 540 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: an anniversary celebration at a bed and breakfast and they're 541 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: going to start on a baby. Okay, I can't really 542 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: think a happier time, So I'm circling back to what 543 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: Mike's friend Clay Catchum said. They have no idea. Every 544 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: theory running through family's head, his wife's head. What could 545 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: have happened to him, had there been some attack, had 546 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: there been a burglary of some sort they didn't know about. 547 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 1: They're trying to figure out because they don't find his body, 548 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: They can't find any evidence of a struggle, nothing. It's 549 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: like he disappears off the face of the earth. Days, weeks, 550 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: and months go by, and suddenly the case goes cold. 551 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: The wife is struggling financially to support the house and 552 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: the daughter all on her own, keep it all going, 553 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: all the balls in the air, and they say the 554 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: case goes cold. Cold cases are tough because you continually 555 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: have your regular workload and then you've got this case 556 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: over here that you continue to look at, but you 557 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: know it's a cold case. So there's times when there's 558 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: nothing going on. It's just sitting there and you're waiting 559 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: for flair you're hearing our friend Telly Sparkman, investigator in 560 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: the State's Attorney's office there in Leon County, Florida. And 561 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: it's not that the cops are the investigators don't want 562 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: to solve the case. They want to I've been in 563 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: the same boat they're in. You know, you get a 564 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: one hundred new cases a week, Brandy felonies to investigate, 565 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: and you'll work to solve them. You work to take 566 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: them to trial, to investigate them. Then there are the 567 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: ones that stump you. You don't want to ignore them, 568 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: you don't want them to go cold, but they're just 569 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: not fitting together. They started requestioning everyone, nailing down alibis 570 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: yet again, trying to get a better timeline of what 571 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: happened that early early morning December sixteen, when Mike Williams 572 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,879 Speaker 1: seemingly vanished off the face of the earth. They went 573 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: to everybody, They went to friends, they went to bosses, 574 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: they spoke to Denise. They did it all, and they 575 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: did it over and over and over again, and still 576 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: nothing until evidence seemingly resurfaces that offers a crack in 577 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: the case. But was it. This is a case that 578 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: needs a spotlight. This case stands for so much the 579 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: injustice heaped on Mike Williams and his family. I can't 580 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: get it out of my mind. Join us July twenty 581 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: six five Central Injustice with Nancy Grace on Oxygen, The 582 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: True Network for Crime. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,