1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 2: Guess what, Well, what's that Mango? 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: So the US Open starts this week and I was 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: thinking about that old Seinfeld, the one where they're at 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: the match talking about sunscreen. 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: I think maybe I'm gonna need you to be a 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: little bit more specific. I was a fan of the show, 9 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: but I'm not remembering here. 10 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Let me just play this clip. 11 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 2: For you, the ways the sunblock. Yeah, it says Papa 12 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 2: in it. 13 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: I need Papa free. 14 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 2: You got a problem with Papa? Yes, I have a 15 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: problem with Papa. You don't even know what Paba is. 16 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: No enough to stay away from. Ah classic Seinfeld dialogue. 17 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 2: It's like nothing happens and nothing matters. 18 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: It is beautiful. But I kept thinking about the scene 19 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: this summer because I've been getting back into playing tennis. Actually, 20 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: my friend Joanna keeps making fun of me and calling 21 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: me a little tennis prince because I keep talking about it. 22 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: But as you probably know, I hate wearing sunscreen. I 23 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: do not like the way it feels. I don't like 24 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: that it doesn't quite rub into my skin, and it 25 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: makes me look white or purple when I try to 26 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: rub it in, but when you're spending hours outside, obviously 27 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: you don't want to burn or get skin damage. And 28 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: it's hard to figure out which sunscreens are actually good. 29 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: So I thought maybe we could look into it a little. 30 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: And I'm curious if you ever figured out what Papa is. 31 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: Papa. There's some problems with Papa. I'll explain it in 32 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: a minute. 33 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: Hey, their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 34 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good 35 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: friend mangesh Ho Ticketer and sitting there behind that big 36 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: glass booth. Actually it's sort of hard to see him 37 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: because there's a lot of white smudged all over there, 38 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: and wearing armlength UV gloves, giant Hollywood sunglasses, and the 39 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: top it off, he's got an umbrella hat. I didn't 40 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: even know he owned one of those, which I think 41 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: is a Japanese contraption he ordered online. If I'm not mistaken, 42 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 2: that is our good friend Dylan. 43 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: So I guess Dylan is really trying to protect his 44 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: skin and avoiding any sun today, which is on theme, 45 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: and I guess makes sense, except that we're all sitting indoors. 46 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: You can never be too careful there, all right, So 47 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: let's get back to sunscreen. We are old enough that 48 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: when we were kids, you just run around the neighborhood 49 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: without really thinking too much about sun protection, especially when 50 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: it wasn't that hot out. But over time, everyone's just 51 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: gotten used to putting it on all the time. I 52 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: don't know if you're this way with your kids, but 53 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: my kids hardly ever go outside without sunscreen on. 54 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: No, it's the same over here. And it's one of 55 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: those things like wine or chocolate, where every time you 56 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: read an article about sunscreen, it's either like sunscreen is 57 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: going to save you from cancer or sunscreen is giving 58 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: you cancer, and it is hard to parse out. So 59 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: I thought it'd be good to look at some of 60 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: the stuff. 61 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know we want to talk about Papa 62 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: and sunscreens and what some of the terminology means, But 63 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: why don't we start from the very beginning with a 64 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 2: bit of a primer on where sunscreen actually comes from. 65 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good idea. So originally sunscreens and sun 66 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: protection wasn't done so much out of a life saving necessity, 67 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: but more out of this sort of cosmetic concern and 68 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptians used various methods of sun protection because 69 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: lighter skin was more desirable culturally, which obviously has been 70 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: a thing all over the world. In India, they used 71 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: to make this awful skin bleaching thing called fair and 72 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: Lovely to make you look more light skinned. But in 73 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: ancient Egypt they use stuff like rice brand, jasmine, and 74 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: lupine to block the tanning effects of the sun on 75 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: the skin. 76 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: And did any of that stuff actually work? 77 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: Yeah? So, actually rice brand absorbs UV light and jasmine 78 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: helps repair DNA, and lupine's the thing that lightens the skin. 79 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: So if your goal was to look like an indoor 80 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: kid or a vampire, it wasn't a bad combo. But 81 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: that wasn't the only way that early people protected their 82 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: skin from the sun. The Greeks pioneered the idea of 83 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: slathering olive oil on your skin to protect it. It 84 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: turns out that olive oil has an SPF of around eight. 85 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: I would have thought the exact opposite, because you always 86 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: know those kids when we were younger that would like 87 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 2: put the oil on themselves to try to get a 88 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 2: better tan or a burn in many cases. But that's 89 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 2: good to know, so I guess if you're out of 90 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: sun's green, maybe just pivot to salad dressing. 91 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean everyone of the beach loves the guy 92 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: who smells like hot garlics, so totally. Some protection continues 93 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: to be about racism basically well into the sixteen hundreds, 94 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: and you have things like women in Europe using velvet 95 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: face bizards to protect themselves. And it isn't until eight 96 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: ninety six that really there's this first idea of sun 97 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: exposure and skin cancer being linked that comes from a 98 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: German physician named Paul Anna, and he termed these pre 99 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: cancerous changes sailor's skin carcinoma or in German seema's shout 100 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: a carzinome. 101 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, semen showers are causernome. Yeah, sc scary stuff. 102 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: So how did he come up with something to protect 103 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: against semen's shouder carcinome? 104 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: So he did make something to help, but it wasn't 105 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: very popular. It was made of horse chestnut and it 106 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: was super thick and awkward on the skin. But basically 107 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: two guys do emerge in the twentieth century as the 108 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: godfathers of what we would recognize today as sunscreen. So 109 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: the first is in nineteen forty four Benjamin Green. He's 110 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: an airman and pharmacist. He used a greasy substance called 111 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: red vet pet red veterinary petroleum to protect himself and 112 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: other soldiers from ultraviolet rays during World War Two, and 113 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: after the war he mixes this with cocoa butter and 114 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: coconut oil into this product that would eventually become Coppertone 115 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: Suntan Cream. And the second person is a Swiss chemistry 116 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: student named Franz Greider. This is in nineteen thirty eight. 117 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: He got a sunburn while climbing this mountain, Mount Pisbooon, 118 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: so he invented a product called Glacier Cream and it's 119 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: under the brand Pisboon. In the nineteen seventies he introduces 120 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: sunscreens with ultraviolet A and ultraviolet B filters. 121 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 2: You know, actually, I was looking up a little of 122 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: the history of Coppertone, which is of course famous for 123 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: that old logo with the toddler and the dog pulling 124 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: at the underwear, and I guess the idea was to 125 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: show a tan line there. And what's weird is that 126 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: the original tagline for that campaign was don't be. 127 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: A pale face, isn't uh isn't it the girl's bum 128 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: that's exposed? Like why did they use that tagline? 129 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: I was curious about the exact same thing, and I 130 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: guess Coppertne was mainly about preventing but also allowing you 131 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: to tan. And before they had that Baby on the 132 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 2: Beach campaign, copper Tone's logo was of a Native American 133 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: chief basically encouraging everyone to get tan. They later changed 134 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: it to tan, Don't burn and for the fastest tan, 135 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: things like that, both of which are a little more PC. 136 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: But you know, obviously we're going to get into sunscreens 137 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: in just a bit. But as you were talking about 138 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: the ancient Egyptians who were lotioning up with rice brand 139 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: and jasmine, it did get me thinking about the Dylan 140 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: like approaches that some other civilizations used to protect themselves 141 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: from the sun. 142 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: Like umbrella hats. 143 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: Well more umbrellas and hats, not really that brilliant combination 144 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: that was eventually brought together. But one thing I found 145 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: interesting was that parasols were symbols of status and power 146 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: throughout Asia and Africa. And again this does get into 147 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: racist notions where fair skin sort of signified higher birth, 148 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: but ceremonial parasols which were carried by tendants. They actually 149 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: helped preserve the pale complexions of the elite, which reinforced 150 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: their entitlement to rule, so sun protection was actually subject 151 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: to law, like for example, in Assyria, only the king 152 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: himself could use a parasol. Now by this sixteen hundred's 153 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: personal sun shades had filtered down to a few more 154 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: of the classes, and parasols were customary and Mediterranean Europe, 155 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: mostly among women, where sunburn or freckled skin was generally 156 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: avoided at all costs by polite society, and gentil ladies 157 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 2: went to great links to preserve the pale complexion expected 158 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: of their rank and their sex. 159 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: I know, you think about all the toxic powders that 160 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: women of the court used to wear in Victorian times 161 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: to make themselves whiter, or like Japanese women would wear, 162 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: and it had mercury in it. I think the Victorian 163 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: women had arsenic in it, and it was all to 164 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: show people they were of such high class that they 165 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: never had to work in the sun or be exposed 166 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: as sun. But you wonder how did we go from 167 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 1: those extremes to like tans being a sign of status. 168 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: It really started in the nineteen twenties when socialites started 169 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: frequenting glamorous beaches of California and the French Riviera, and 170 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: it became fashionable to acquire a sun tan. And there's 171 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: a lot of chatter about how Coco Chanel kind of 172 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 2: launched a movement and used tan mannequins, but actually it 173 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: predates her. 174 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting. So now that we've talked a little 175 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: bit about the history of sunscreens and went a little 176 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: off track with parasols, let's get back to original question. 177 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: Do sunscreens actually do anything? All? 178 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: Right? Well, why don't we start with that Seinfeld clip 179 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: U teased at the beginning of the show. So what 180 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: is papa. 181 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: Papa is an organic compound that can absorb UVB rays 182 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: and those are the UV rays that caused sunburns. So 183 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: it was a really popular ingredient in sunscreens starting in 184 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: the nineteen forties. PAPA stands for para amino benzoic acid, 185 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: but unfortu actunately, it caused allergic reactions in a significant 186 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: part of the population. So PAPA is no longer approved 187 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: by the FDA for use in sunscreens. 188 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: And I'm guessing it gets banned in the nineties, like 189 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: around the time of that clip from Seinfeld. 190 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: So weirdly, the FDA only put PABA on its list 191 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: of unsafe for ineffective compounds in twenty nineteen. So even 192 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: though George Costanza warned us about PAPA way back in 193 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, the FDA does tend to move a 194 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: little bit slowly on these things. 195 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to be fair, George Costanza also lied 196 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 2: about being a marine biologist and tried to get the 197 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: Yankees to wear cotton uniform so he's not exactly a 198 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 2: trusted source. But how exactly is the FDA defining sunscreens 199 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 2: and making some of these decisions? 200 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: So I came prepared for this question. Sunscreen refers to 201 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: a product in the US which is typically a lotion, cream, gel, 202 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: or spray that blocks harmful UV rays from damaging your skin, 203 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: and it also includes filters, which are the active ingredients 204 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: in sunscreen. A sunscreen product is a mix of various moisturizers, fragrances, preservatives, 205 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: and of course the filters. But these filters can vary, 206 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: and in fact, I'm sure you've heard some of your 207 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: fancier friends talk about how European and Asian sunscreens are 208 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: far superior. 209 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean people always say you got to go 210 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: far away to find the best stuff. You think about 211 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: Belgian chocolates, Japanese kit cats, I mean, I know you 212 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: think about Japanese kit cats, Korean face mask and fried chicken, 213 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 2: and pop music like the list goes on. 214 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean, the K pop thing is crazy to me. 215 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: Like the last time I was in India, kids knew 216 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: more about kpop than they did about American bands for 217 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: the first time, and that was something that never happened 218 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: in my lifetime. But back to foreign sunscreens, So the 219 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: sunscreen abroad works better because the filters are actually better. 220 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: There are all kinds of UV filters that have been 221 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: approved for decades in Europe and Asia, but aren't approved 222 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: in the US because in most of the world, sunscreen 223 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: is actually classified as a cosmetic but in the US 224 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: that isn't the case. 225 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: And why is that. 226 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: Back in nineteen thirty eight, the Federal Food, Drug and 227 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: Cosmetic Act was passed and it required sunscreens to be 228 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: classified as both a cosmetic and a drug and drugs 229 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: have to be tested on animals. 230 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 2: Wait, we had a law that required us to test 231 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: sunscreen on animals. 232 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the intentions were good. And remember this 233 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: is from nineteen thirty eight when the Act was really 234 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: a huge advance in US food policy, and it took 235 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: a lot of effort, Like the US largely through the 236 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: efforts of women's groups, pioneered policies that were designed to 237 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: protect the pocketbooks of consumers, and all these standards were 238 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: implemented for safety and ensuring value. But sunscreen fell into 239 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: this weird gray area because of the question of is 240 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: sunscreen a drug or cosmetic? And the thing is it's 241 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: pretty hard to answer. Like the way the fd and 242 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: C ACT defined cosmetics is quo as articles intended to 243 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: be rubbed, poured, sprinkled, or sprayed on, introduced into, or 244 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: otherwise applied to the human body for cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, 245 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: or altering the appearance. 246 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: Okay, I mean, with the exception of sprinkling, I don't 247 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: think I've ever sprinkled sunscreen, But that does sound like 248 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: what sunscreen is. 249 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. And the way the FDNC defines drugs is articles 250 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: intended for use in the mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease. 251 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 2: That that also sounds what sunscreen is. 252 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you see the problem, and it isn't just sunscreen. 253 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: So like a lot of products fall into this both 254 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: category if you think about it, like anti dandrift shampoo 255 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: is a cosmetic because you know it's used to clean 256 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: the hair, and it's also a drug because it's intended 257 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: to treat dan drift. Toothpaste claims to freshen your breath 258 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: and cleanse the teeth, but it also contains fluoride. Like, 259 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: these products all have to meet the standards of both 260 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: cosmetics and drugs. 261 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: So to get back to the animal thing, it still 262 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 2: sounds like one of those standards for drugs in the 263 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 2: US is testing it on animals. 264 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, And to be clear, there was a new law 265 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: passed last year that says drugs no longer have to 266 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: be tested on animals. President Biden signed a law that 267 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: you can use organ chips and computer modeling and other 268 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: types of electronics in place of animal testing. But according 269 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: to the journal Science, it'll take a while for the 270 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: industry to adapt to these methods and it's unclear how 271 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: much it'll actually change things because, as one scientist in 272 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: the article put it, quote, we can drop a new 273 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: candidate drug onto a bunch of liver cells, and we 274 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: can see that it doesn't damage them, But what we 275 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: don't know is whether it's going to make a person cough, 276 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: whether it's going to damage their own testines or their brain. 277 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: So it's a really deeply complicated issue, and drugs obviously 278 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: deserve to be tested deeply, but the European Union has 279 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: long banned any animal testing of cosmetics, which is how 280 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: they define sunscreen, and because the regulations are more lax 281 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: in places like France, they can actually innovate and test 282 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: much more quickly. 283 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,479 Speaker 2: All right, let's talk a little bit about the specifics 284 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: you see on a sunscreen, Like what type of sunscreen 285 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: are you using? 286 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: I try to go for every single benefit. It' says, 287 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: so like a fifty plus SPF broad spectrum waterproof REEF 288 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: safe sunscreen. 289 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: You just said so much, nothing like you know, you 290 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: don't even know. I don't think I know. 291 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: I just like words and I trust advertising. But I 292 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: feel like if I if I slap some of this 293 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: on my face and go play a tennis, I've covered right. 294 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the first thing you should know is 295 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: that there's no such thing as an all day, waterproof, 296 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: sweat proof sunscreen. So if that's what you're hoping for, 297 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: it actually doesn't exist, Mango. 298 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not playing that long because I'm out 299 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: of ship, so all day isn't really interesting for me. 300 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: That's fair. But regardless, if you're out there for more 301 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 2: than a few sets, you just have to reapply sunscreen 302 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: like the rest of us, after you sweat or swim 303 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: or just after a of hours. 304 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: And what about this reef safe business, Like, I don't 305 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: want to hurt the reefs, and you know how much 306 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: I love reefs. 307 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: You love the reefs. I mean, there's no standard or 308 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 2: regulated meaning behind reef, say for reef friendly. This is 309 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: something that comes up in a lot of places like 310 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: Hawaii or Australia, where they obviously want to protect the 311 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: coral and so some of the sunscreens that are labeled 312 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 2: as reef save for sunscreens that aren't using things like 313 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: oxybenzone or octanoxate too filters that might be harmful to 314 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: coral reefs. But some of these reef safe products use 315 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: minerals like titanium dioxide, which can produce hydrogen peroxide in 316 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: the water, a chemical that's actually harmful to marine organisms. 317 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: So again it's it's pretty murky when you look at 318 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: something like that. But the reefs are under a much 319 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: greater threat from climate change than from sun's grain, to 320 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: be sure. 321 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: And what about the SPF label on my ies on screen? 322 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: So SPF stands for sun protection factor, and it's a 323 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: measure of how well sunscreen protects the skin from UVB rays, 324 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 2: not UVA. So quick Google search tells you that SPF 325 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 2: compares how long it would take for the sun's UV 326 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: rays to red and skin without sunscreen to how long 327 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: it would take with sunscreen. And if it takes twenty 328 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 2: minutes for unprotected skin to turn red, SPF thirty. Sunscreen 329 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 2: prevents reddening for thirty times longer. But again, some of 330 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: this is a little bit murky, Like there's this book 331 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: called sun Tanning in the twentieth Century, and in it 332 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: it talks about how spfs are really useful for manufacturers 333 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: because fear is a powerful selling tool. Like in nineteen 334 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 2: eighty two, this Forbes piece showed that sixty five percent 335 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 2: of all sunscreen sold had an SPF value of only 336 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 2: SPF two to SPF eight. But by nineteen ninety two, 337 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: when things like ozone holes and skin cancer were in 338 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 2: the public conversation, and sunscreen started to have this halo quality. 339 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: As this per detective goop, most sunscreens started being SPF 340 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 2: fifteen or higher, which is obviously better for protection, but 341 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: part of the reason for the change was that companies 342 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: could charge more. Like at the time, companies could charge 343 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 2: four ninety nine or so for a bottle of SPF four, 344 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 2: almost seven dollars for SPF eight and seven ninety nine 345 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: for SPF fifteen, But the numbers didn't exactly match up, 346 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 2: like SPF fifty supposedly only gave six percent more protection 347 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: than SPF fifteen, So again it's all a little confusing. 348 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: So what SPF should I be using? Then? 349 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this whole debate about this, and we'll get 350 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 2: into what Australia is recommending in a bit as a 351 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 2: nation with some of the most skin cancer. But the 352 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: American Academy of Dermatology recommends SPF thirty or higher, with 353 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 2: an emphasis on higher, like most recommend anything from SPF 354 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: fifty to seventy. 355 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: Great, so I feel like at least I'm covered on 356 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: that front. And what about the bit that says broad spectrum. 357 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, broad spectrum is a real term, but it means 358 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: a lot of different things. So in the US, broad 359 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: spectrum refers only to protection against UVA light. In Europe, 360 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 2: broad spectrum also refers to the quality of UVB shielding. 361 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: So brands earn the right to use that term broad 362 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 2: spectrum if laboratory measurements of UVA protection are at least 363 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: a third the values of laboratory measurements of UVB protection. 364 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 2: You got this right. This is all super clear. 365 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: So remind me what's the difference between VA and UVV, Like, 366 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: which one's the bad one. 367 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: Well, they can actually both be harmful. So UVB radiation 368 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 2: makes up about five percent of the sun's UV light. 369 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: It causes sunburns, damages the top layers of the skin, 370 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: can cause DNA mutations that lead to skin cancer. And 371 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 2: UVA radiation makes up about ninety five percent of the 372 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: sun's UV light, and these rays penetrate deep into the skin. 373 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: They go past the epidermis, which is that outermost layer 374 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: of course, and into the dermis, which is that middle layer. 375 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 2: They can even pass through glass, which is why you 376 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 2: can get a sunburn while driving or sitting by a window. 377 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 2: So these are the rays that caused sun tans. They 378 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: cause wrinkles, sunspots, collagen damage, and those signs of aging. 379 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 2: But what many people don't realize is that UVA rays 380 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: can also cause cancer. I mean, all of. 381 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: This is so scary. So if you buy a bottle 382 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: of sunscreen in the US and it says broad spectrum, 383 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: it means it might not protect against UVB light at all. 384 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 2: I mean not only that, but according to a twenty 385 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: ten Environmental Working Group analysis of four hundred and forty 386 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 2: six beach and sports sunscreens, all of which had SPF 387 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: ratings of thirty plus, nearly two thirds of them provided 388 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 2: inadequate UVA protection, and a product survey by Procter and 389 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: Gamble in two thousand and four noted that a third 390 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 2: of products that claimed spectrum protection on the label didn't 391 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: actually provide it. The most common UVA filter in the 392 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 2: US is avibin zone, which was the last big filter 393 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: approved in the US in the nineteen nineties. But among 394 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 2: the UVA filters approved in Europe, the good ones we 395 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: can't get, like three of them, tenosorb S, tenosorb M, 396 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: and mexiil SX are between four and five times more 397 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: protective than avibenzone. 398 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: So I get that Europe and Asia have all these 399 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: advanced sunscreens because of our I guess, rigorous testing process. 400 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: But how do we know if these foreign filters are 401 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: actually safe? 402 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 2: Well, people in Europe and Asia have been using these 403 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: newer chemical filters for years, decades in some cases, so 404 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: industry advocates argue that there is plenty of data to 405 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 2: support their safety. No one seems to be experiencing any 406 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: widespread health problems related to these sunscreens. 407 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess when you've got populations of two 408 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: continents and you've got about a decade of experience, it 409 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: sounds like good data. 410 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but the FBA is still dragging its feet. 411 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 2: And on top of that, sunscreen manufacturers are reluctant to 412 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: attempt the approval process because you know, the return on 413 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 2: investment on sunscreen is low. Most of the UV filters 414 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 2: in question aren't eligible for patent protection. 415 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: That's where they're not actually covered by patents. 416 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and because the profit margin on suns green is 417 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: nowhere near what it is on pharmaceuticals. The battery of 418 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: tests the FDA asks for takes years and cost a 419 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 2: lot of money. Companies really aren't that incentivized to enter 420 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: the US market. For instance, the top chemical maker DSM 421 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 2: recently started advancing a filter known as tensorb S through 422 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: the FDA approval process. It would be the first new 423 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 2: UV filter to hit the US market since Abben Zone 424 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: in the nineteen nineties. But the final bill for this 425 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: process will come to between twelve million and twenty million dollars. 426 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: Seven other organic V filters, all of which are in 427 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: regular use and the rest of the world, are stuck 428 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 2: in the FDA approval pipeline, even though Congress has repeatedly 429 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: tried to force the agency to move faster. 430 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of fine to see that these 431 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: things are actually bipartisan, Like Rand Paul was the one 432 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: pushing away from animal testing to get meaningful drugs tested 433 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: quicker and out to market faster, particularly during the COVID era. 434 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: And then AOC was using TikTok to get people to 435 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: press Congress for changes to sunscreen regulation. And I know 436 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: she got some criticism because people were saying that she 437 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: was making all this ruckus about a beauty product, but 438 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: sunscreen obviously impacts a massive number of people's health. 439 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. And it's particularly weird because while the 440 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 2: FDA is dragging its feet to approve new filters. They're 441 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 2: worried about some of the existing filters, where an FDA 442 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 2: terms sunscreens that are not grace GRASEE, which is an 443 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: acronym for generally recognized as safe and effective. So agencies 444 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: has recently published a studies showing that under normal usage conditions, 445 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 2: most commonly used organic UV filters show up in the 446 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 2: bloodstream at levels that trigger a toxicology study requirement. 447 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: That sounds terrifying. 448 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 2: Super scary, But I mean the thing is, that's as 449 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: far as the FDA will go with their internal research. 450 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: Like the agency says it's up to the industry to 451 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 2: generate the rest of the data. 452 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: So they're basically saying, there's enough of this stuff going 453 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: to your body that you should check if it's toxic, 454 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: but we're not going to pay for that research. 455 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: That's that's pretty much sums it up. 456 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is a terrible place to leave consumers, 457 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: especially when you look at the stats right like skin 458 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: cancer rates are so high in the US right now, 459 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: one in five Americans will develop skin cancer by the 460 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: age of seventy. This year, the American Cancer Society reported 461 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: that about three point three million Americans were diagnosed with 462 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: skin cancer, and each year that number is increasing. 463 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, but this misinformation about Quote Kim sunscreens was so 464 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: bad that the FDA had to issue its own caveat. 465 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 2: Like the statement they put out says, while research indicates 466 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 2: that some topical drugs can be absorbed into the body 467 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 2: through the skin, this does not mean these drugs are unsafe, 468 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 2: but this finding does call for further testing to determine 469 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 2: the safety of repeated use. 470 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: It's such a messy statement after making a mess of 471 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: it to begin with. But one thing I think is 472 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: weird is that it almost feels like the attitude towards 473 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: sunscreen and sun protection is that they're luxury products. And 474 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: this is what I was getting to with the AOC 475 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: stuff that you know, it feels like these are only 476 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: things that you need if you're spending time on a yacht. 477 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: But of course that's not true. And when you think 478 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: about people who regularly work in the sun, like farm 479 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: workers and people who do manual labor outdoors, whether that's 480 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: construction or landscaping or whatever, it really affects everyone. So 481 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear, like, what is some practical advice here? 482 00:25:58,760 --> 00:25:59,959 Speaker 1: How do we stay safe. 483 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 2: Well, Dylan actually has the right idea as always. I 484 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: mean when does Dylan not have the right idea. So 485 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 2: staying out of the sun is key, and you can 486 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 2: do it with hats and clothes that now have SPF 487 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 2: ratings and of course parasols. And so we already talked 488 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 2: about using sunscreens that have an SPF of thirty or higher, 489 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 2: and a lot of dermatologists advocate to sticking to fifty 490 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 2: or higher. But SPF doesn't matter if you're not applying 491 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: the sunscreen correctly. So an adult body in a bathing 492 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: suit typically needs at least one liquid ounce or what 493 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 2: fills your palm applied every two hours or after you 494 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 2: swim or sweat a lot, and make sure it is 495 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: not expired. 496 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I always forget that a sunscreen can actually expire. 497 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: And what if I've already built up my base tan. 498 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: Well, I think you have a natural based tand because 499 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: of your skin color. But for those who think a 500 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 2: base tan from the sun or a tanning bed will 501 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 2: protect your body from the sun, a quote base tan 502 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 2: is actually sun damage. It's your body producing melanin to 503 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 2: try to protect itself from more UV rays penetrating deeper 504 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: into your skin. Besides, a base tan only provides an 505 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 2: SPF of around say five. 506 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: Which is less than olive oil. 507 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 2: At eight, it is exactly less than olive oil. You're right, 508 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: and you're better off slathering yourself in delicious olive oil 509 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 2: for sun protection than trying to build a base tan, 510 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: if you want to put it that way. 511 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: Well, I'm waiting for the FDA to approve an olive 512 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: oil sunscreen, but you know, gives me safe sun protection 513 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: but also tastes great. Drizzled over sliced tomatoes. 514 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 2: Love olive oil so much it's weird. I didn't expect 515 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: to be hungry talking about US sunscreen. Well, one other 516 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: thing to think about is that there's still a lot 517 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 2: of debate on all of this. The standards we're talking 518 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 2: about are really American notions. But there's an article in 519 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 2: the Atlantic by Rowan Jacobsen who talks about how Australia 520 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: has really changed on this issue. Australia has by far 521 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 2: the world's highest skin care answer rate. So in the 522 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: nineteen eighties they launched this campaign of quote slip slop 523 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 2: slap and it was basically as big as our just 524 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: Say No campaign in the US, and the idea was 525 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 2: to promote protection from the sun. Slip on a shirt, 526 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 2: slop on some sunscreen, and slap on a hat. It's 527 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: just so much fun to say, slip, slap, slap. Yeah. Yeah, 528 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: but keeping people out of the sun wasn't the answer, 529 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: because sunlight has all these benefits that a vitamin D 530 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 2: pill doesn't give you, including protecting from things like MS 531 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 2: and diabetes. Anyway, recently the country has revised their sun 532 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 2: protection advice according to skin color and susceptibility to skin cancer. So, 533 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 2: according to this same piece, for those with pale skin 534 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 2: or olive skin plus other risk factors, practice extreme caution, 535 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: keep slip slop slapping. 536 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: For those with. 537 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 2: Olive oil or pale brown skin, take a balanced approach, 538 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: using sun screen whenever the UV index is at least 539 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: a three, which is most days of the year in Australia. Actually, 540 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: and for those with dark skin, you really only need 541 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 2: sunscreen for extended outings in the bright sun. So it's 542 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 2: a more complicated approach, but it's one of the country's 543 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 2: health officials actually stand by. 544 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: I guess that makes sense that it doesn't have to 545 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: be this one size fits all approach. Yeah, and this 546 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: whole thing is so wordy and so mush to think about. 547 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: But you know, one thing we don't have to think 548 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: a lot about is whether or not to end this 549 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: on a fact off. 550 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: Let's do it, all right, So here's one to kick 551 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: us off. Kristin Little has the Guinness record for most 552 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: spray tans in one hour. That's not a record I 553 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,479 Speaker 2: would have thought about where she got one hundred and 554 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 2: seven spray tans. Apparently she wasn't just doing it for 555 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 2: the glow up. Kristin is in the spray tanning business 556 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 2: and did this stunt to raise awareness for skin cancer 557 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 2: and also to fundraise for a local cancer center. 558 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,479 Speaker 1: I feel like that's a very different type of dunking 559 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: booth than most of the year. So, speaking of fake tan's, 560 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: we've all heard about how Richard Nixon lost the election 561 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: to Kennedy because of how pale and sweaty he looked 562 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: on TV during those debates. But one thing I'd never 563 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: heard before was that JFK's ten wasn't natural. According to 564 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: David Halberstam's reporting, JFK's appearance was the result of his 565 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: experimenting with Man ten, the first self tanning lotion. 566 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: I would have no idea that that existed at the 567 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: time of JFK being around. That's wild. Well, did you 568 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 2: know that even when you're dead, your body can keep tanning? 569 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: According to a twenty twenty three paper in the American 570 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology, quote, post mortem tanning 571 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 2: is very much a thing. The paper actually describes and 572 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: analyzes three bodies from different climates had been left in 573 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 2: the sun and showed tan lines from the exposure after death. 574 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: That is so weird and so morbid, But I guess 575 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: it's good to know. Like, if you have a dead relative, 576 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: you can send them to a tanning booth before a funeral. 577 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, good call. 578 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: So here's a weird one from that GEO. To protect 579 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: itself from the sun, the West African lungfish goes into estivation, 580 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: or a summer version of hibernation, where it bundles itself 581 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: in a cocoon of mucus and then digs itself into 582 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: the mud. 583 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 2: That's one way for us to handle it next time 584 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 2: we go to the beach. All right, Well, according to Vox, 585 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 2: higher spfs will give you more protection. In a study 586 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 2: published in twenty seventeen, two hundred people in Vail, Colorado, 587 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 2: applied SPF fifty Son's Green to one side of their 588 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: face and SPF one hundred to the other. I sort 589 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: of love this study, And so the next day, forty 590 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 2: one percent of them were sunburned on their SPF fifty 591 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: side compared to fourteen percent on their SPF one hundred side. 592 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: I love that pretty great. So I think it's pretty 593 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: easy for us all to take the sun for granted, 594 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: especially in the summertime. But there's a group of kids, 595 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: the so called children of the Night, who no amount 596 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: of sunscreen can help because they're allergic to the sun. 597 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: And Atlas Obscura writes about them and describes the phenomena. 598 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: It's called zeroderma pigmentosum. And this phenomena actually makes summer 599 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 1: camp or any daytime activity painful and even fatally dangerous. 600 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: But luckily, since nineteen ninety five, there's a place called 601 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: Camps Sundown in Prairieville, New York, and it's been catering 602 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: to these kids and it really lets them reclaim the summer. 603 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: They get to do night swims, flashlight tag late night movies, 604 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: and campfires, which all takes place under the glow of 605 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: the moonlight. 606 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: That is so sweet. It's such a great idea you 607 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 2: have and did it with the sweetest facts. So I 608 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: think I'm gonna have to give you this week's trophy, Mango. 609 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and I'm gonna grab it from 610 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: your slippery sunscreeny hands before we head out. Please remember 611 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: we love hearing from you, but more importantly, our moms 612 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,719 Speaker 1: love hearing from you, and you can always hit us 613 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: up with questions and comments at our mom's email address, 614 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: keyty Genius Moms at gmail dot com. And that is 615 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: it for this week's episode from Will, Dylan, Mary, and myself. 616 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. Part Time Genius is 617 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted 618 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: by Will Pearson and me Mongagetikler and research by our 619 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: good pal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and 620 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: produced by the one Wonderful of Dylan Fagan with support 621 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: from Tyler Klang. The show is executive produced for iHeart 622 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: by Katrina Norvel and Ali Perry, with social media support 623 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: from Sasha Gay trustee Dara Potts and Viney Shorey. For 624 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 625 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.