WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - January 3rd, 2025 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.240 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:12.800 This is Bloomberg Business Week Insight from the reporters and 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:17.320 editors that bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus. 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:19.400 Global business, finance and tech news. 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.520 The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:25.880 Stenoveek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.280 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Wee Weekend Podcast. 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.120 Happy New Year. It's our first week of twenty twenty five, 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:34.280 and as we enter the new year, we wanted to 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:36.159 take a look into some of the key developments that 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.440 could shape the next half decade, from US policy under 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:43.320 a second Trump term, aised insatiable demand for electricity harming 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.479 the climate, to the decades long battle to control what 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:50.120 has emerged as the world's most critical resource, semiconductors. 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.960 So ahead on the program, we'll examine the year ahead, 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:56.760 touching on Bloomberg Business Week's annual fifty Companies to watch, 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.440 the next stage of aiuse and adoption, and he taught 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:02.840 Feuds That'll define twenty twenty five. 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:05.520 Accept everybody, because they're going to come at you. Plus, 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.280 our Bloomberg Pursuits team has the ultimate travel guide for 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.600 the next twelve months with help from the folks over 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.880 at Kayak who gathered billions, yes billions, of data points 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.280 to give you personalized, month by month estimates for the 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:19.120 destinations of your choice. 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.600 All that to come, we begin, though, with the Bloomberg 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.960 Business Week Year Ahead issue for twenty twenty five. Each year, 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.520 the Bloomberg Business Week team provides a comprehensive outlook on 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:33.760 the most important economic, business, technological, and geopolitical trends expected 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:35.000 to shape the coming year. 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.560 According to Mariam Webster you know the Dictionary, twenty twenty 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.880 four was the year of polarization. Political divisions affected not 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.280 only the state of affairs within the United States, but 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.600 safe to say, also around the world. However, it's optimism 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:51.840 that Bloomberg Business Week editor Bradstone wanted to focus on. 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.760 In the opening remarks of the Year Ahead issue, Brad 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.160 gives us the optimist guide to a chaotic world. We 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:00.720 ask Brad why he chose to be hopeful for twenty 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:01.280 twenty five. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:02.400 It was a little. 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.000 Tricky because, you know, we had just subjected our readers 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:09.720 to months and months of our political coverage, including our 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:14.320 December issue, which was we produced the week after the 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.720 result in the US election, with a full complement the 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.640 stories about what the Trump victory meant. And so as 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.840 we looked ahead in our annual year head package, really 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.400 I wanted to stretch our arms a little bit to 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:29.080 get beyond the politics story. 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:29.800 You know. 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.440 So we've got this collection of stories about, for example, 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:37.120 an interview with the Property Brothers, these great the influencer 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:42.280 real estate influencers, this massive infrastructure project to keep Karp 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.119 out of the Great Lakes, you know, just all these stories. 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:51.800 There's another good one from Tom Orleck, our chief economists, 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.400 on you know what the Trump agenda means for the 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:58.560 global economy and how it might not necessarily mean lower growth. 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.040 So anyways, you know, taking a little bit of a 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:02.720 different approach than we had in the past. 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.280 And then you know which, and this informed my opening 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.600 remarks trying to maybe be a little bit more optimistic. 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.200 I mean, if the new year isn't a time for optimism, 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:11.760 than what is? 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:12.360 I love that. 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:14.679 Well, okay, so once you thought all this through for 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.079 the year ahead issue, you do give us this optimist 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.200 guide to a chaotic world. And you spoke to Harvard 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.920 psychologist Stephen Pinker, who kind of says, like this is 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.639 all our fault. As journalists and writers of headlines. 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.600 Well, no, I mean, am I. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.359 Am I projecting here? Am I projecting here? 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:38.440 He acknowledges that, you know, the job of the news 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.720 is to cover things that are happening, and things that 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.520 are happening that deviate from the norm, you know, can 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:45.520 be negative things. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.560 But the point was that the norm is pretty good, you. 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.560 Know, and that there's no greater time to be alive. 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:57.200 And you look at numbers like vaccines reducing mortality by 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:01.920 forty percent over the past half century, or Africa infectious 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:07.800 disease deaths decreasing forty two percent since twenty fifteen, you know, 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.120 even good news in terms of carbon emissions lowering. 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:13.640 That these are things that we should pay attention to. 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:15.520 And so that you know, that was sort of the 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.560 framework that you know, however one feels about political changes 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.400 in the US or in Western Europe, that you know, 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.400 there's a backdrop that is actually pretty pretty rosy. 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:27.400 Yeah, you know what's kind of interesting. I have to say, 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:31.720 reading through your column, I thought about sometimes I get 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:34.680 into a cab, typically in New York City, and it 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.400 often is somebody from that wasn't born here, and we 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:39.599 started having a conversation, they're like, you have no idea 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.359 how great this country is. And like we'll talk about 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.440 division or something and they're like, you have no idea 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:43.960 how great it is. 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:48.239 Why you're uberrating is one star? No, I'm just kidding. 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:49.960 I'm just saying, but I do think that's what you 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:51.680 get to And you know, when you when we cut, 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:53.960 it's so easy for us to be in it day 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:55.440 to day. And sometimes Tim and I go through a 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:57.800 show Man and we're like, wow, that was dark. But 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.240 if you broadened out right the lens, like you right, 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.719 we have made some really great advancements on a lot 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:05.800 of different front spread. 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.640 And by the way, you know, I didn't want to 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.560 be completely a political I mean it is a time 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.480 to be optimistic about a new presidential administration. I think 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.919 we should get give every incoming president the benefit of 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:18.440 the doubt. 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.360 And so you know, when it comes to you know. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:27.320 Regulating nuclear energy, you know, a technology that has historically 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.120 made a lot of people squeamish. 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.440 You know, that's that's perhaps something to look forward to. 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:33.000 You know. 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:33.480 Robert I. F. 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.480 Kennedy Junior gets a lot of attention for his unorthodox show. 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.360 We say view on vaccines or fluoride in the drinking water. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:46.240 But you know, rethinking public health guidelines, looking again at 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.640 ultra processed foods in the in the food chain. You know, 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.840 I was in the mood to see the silver lining, 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:54.520 let's say, and I think it's a good time to 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:54.840 do that. 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:56.200 We'll talk a little bit about this sort of the 0:05:56.240 --> 0:06:01.000 Silicon Valley angle here with Elon Musk and the Department 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.719 of Government Efficiency and what that could actually do well. 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.039 I mean, look, let's you know, at this point, take 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:11.120 them at their word that they're trying to get make 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:16.159 government more efficient, boost business activity, roll back the regulations 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:21.400 that have made it difficult to build infrastructure, say, roll 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.320 out high speed trains. You know, there there isn't any 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.440 reason to be complacent about the status quo in the 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.680 United States when we look at how quickly other countries 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.880 are able to do big things, and so you know 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.360 we should be you know, give give Elon the benefit 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.240 of the doubt. I mean, he's behaved a little bit 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:43.360 like a blunt force instrument. But you know, I I 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.680 was listening to Mark Andriesen on a on a podcast recently, 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.520 and there has been a lot of frustration in Silicon 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.719 Valley about their ability. 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:52.680 To develop new technologies. 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.320 And so look there there, their candidate was elected, and 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.320 you know, we're going to see if if they can 0:06:59.320 --> 0:06:59.960 make a difference. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.080 I just want to know, though, did you originally when 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:03.600 you started thinking about it, and you're like, I'm going 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:05.520 to ride a column that you know, there's a lot 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.280 of questions and it feels a little dark, And then 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.080 do you're like, well, wait a minute, glasses half full, 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:12.960 glasses half empty. I'm just curious if you did two 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:14.000 versions of this, Brad. 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:15.840 I gave myself. 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.240 I gave myself the challenge of writing a story with 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.120 the headline, you know, the search for optimism or a 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:24.960 guide to optimism. I just felt and I don't know 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.840 where the notion came from. You know, you guys know 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.680 I'm here in the Bay Area, so excuse me. So 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.240 you know, there there is the there was a lot 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.800 of hiding under the dining room table in my community, 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:39.760 and so I wanted to look at things from a 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.120 little bit of a different perspective. 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:41.880 Yeah, I love it. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:43.720 I want to hear a little bit about your thoughts 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:48.600 on the tech firms kind of making the pilgrimage tomorrow lago, 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.280 just in recent weeks. We had Jeff Bezos down there 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.280 earlier this week. There's probably nobody who knows more about 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.480 Jeff Bezos than you. How would you describe a meeting 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.480 like that with President Trump? And sort of the context 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.800 around that President like Trump opportunistic. 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:05.000 I mean, look, there's no mystery around how to work 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.440 with the federal government when Donald Trump is president. 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.920 Then you know, you go and you kiss. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.600 The ring, so to speak, and he responds to that, 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.640 and so we're seeing one CEO after the other go 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.400 do that now. In Jeffs case, it was interesting because 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.440 Elon Musk shows up at his table, maybe to his 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.360 no doubt considerable surprise. But you know, Jeff has a 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:33.439 lot writing on this administration. He's got his company, Blue Origin, 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.959 has the new Glen orbital rocket sitting on the launch 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:41.360 pad at Cape Canaveral waiting, waiting to be approved, and 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.520 so you know he he needs a partnership with this 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:48.760 federal government and probably not the kind of acrimony that 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.719 existed between him and Trump during Trump's first term. And 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.839 look and shoot Chew, the CEO of TikTok also going 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.800 down there as he faces a deadline for Byte Dance, 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:01.760 the Chinese company, the cell TikTok. 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.200 All these leaders know that the path to getting what 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:06.240 they want is. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.520 A little bit of sycofancye, and so that is why 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:09.839 they are in Margot bar Lago. 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:14.200 Well, great stuff as always, Happy New Year, Happy holidays, Brad. 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.200 Always good to check in with you, looking forward to 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.880 the new issue. Bradstone, Editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek, author of 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:23.040 many books, including Amazon Unbound. You are listening to Bloomberg Radio. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.679 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.199 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.760 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:37.600 or watch us Live on YouTube. 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.439 When we think about the year ahead, one storyline worth 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.839 paying attention to the escalating trade war between the United 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.600 States and China over the future of advanced semiconductor manufacturing. 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:53.599 Virtually everything from missiles to microwaves runs on chips, including cars, smartphones, 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.360 the stock market, even the electric grid. In twenty twenty four, 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.760 the Biden administration limited further advancements of China's semiconductor industry 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:06.000 by blocking several companies from receiving exports of certain chip 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.880 technology from China. Beijing responded by banning exports of critical 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:11.040 minerals to the US. 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.600 Feels a bit frosty, to say the least. This tit 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.079 for tap between the two global superpowers is set to 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.640 grow even further in twenty twenty five, at least that's 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:22.160 the expectations this as President elect Donald Trump has promised 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.880 tariffs on Chinese goods. All of this while companies around 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.600 the world try to adjust their supply chains. Needless to say, 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:30.920 the stakes are high. 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.120 Someone who knows the semiconductor space well as Chris Miller. 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.280 He's Associate Professor of International history at Tufts University, and 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.720 he's the author of the book on chips, the New 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.600 York Times bestseller Chip War, The Fight for the World's 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.760 Most Critical Technology. He ties it to today's US China rivalry. 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.640 There are two big shifts happening simultaneously right now. One 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.880 is the served of spending on AI infrastructure, which means 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.760 lots of very expensive AI accelerators in high powered data 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.320 sens And two is the ratcheting up of tension around 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.040 the US and China, with the new administration in the 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:12.360 US planning to increase tariffs and controls on China's semiconductor industry. 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.080 So those two trends are intersecting in ways that impact 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.000 pretty much every company in the sector. 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.640 Where are we going to see that kind of line 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.640 in the sand when it comes to selling technology to China? 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.560 And then the big tech company is saying, but wait 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.560 a minute, this starts to impact our business because China 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:29.720 is a massive market. 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.280 I think we talked to any CEO or executive off 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.920 the record, and they'll say that my biggest problem is 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.880 that China is both my largest customer and my number 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.480 one competitor in most cases, and that, I think structures 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.560 how the industry deals with this issue and tries to 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:46.200 lobby the US government. They all sort of understand the 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.160 logic of the US government, understand that chips are key 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.520 for AI, understand that AI is key to national security 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.640 as well as economic prosperity. But they all also realize 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.080 that they have really substantial markets in China. And so 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.800 wherever you look the supply chain of the makers of 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:05.000 the tools that make chips, the manufacturers of chips themselves, 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:07.160 they're all going to lobby, and they all have lobbied 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.520 very successfully to keep their ability to sell to China open, 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.880 and the national security apparatus, the Pentagon, the Commerce Department, 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.440 the intelligence agencies are pushing for more restrictions than companies 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.640 themselves want, and that a balancing act that any president 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:23.920 of got a balance. I think we've seen the Biden 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:28.640 administration end up with a more lapse approach than one 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:32.120 might have expected given their early tough rhetoric on this issue, 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.000 and it'll be interesting to watch how the Trump administration 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.880 addresses this balance. There will certainly be voices of administration saying, 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.319 let's focus on continue to export to China of technology. 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.120 It's important economically, But there will also be voices on 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.000 the opposite side saying, if you export advanced technology to China, 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:51.320 you're only giving China the capability to learn how to 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.920 manufacture high end ships domestically and eventually replace US firms 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:55.720 in the Chinese market. 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.080 Chris, with your understanding and knowledge of this world, are 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:02.640 we right, us, the United States, right to be concerned 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.520 about exporting technology to China. We've certainly seen this play 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.160 out where things get exported the technology and China becomes 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:10.920 really good at doing things. We're seeing it kind of 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.679 play out in the EV market as we speak. So 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:18.000 I'm curious how concerned should we that we will export 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:22.160 our expertise, our knowledge and lose control of another industry. 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:23.080 You know. 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.120 I think it's worth noting that China only imports a 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:31.319 couple of types of manufactured goods semiconductors semiconductor manufacturing equipment. 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.600 Those are the two largest categories of China's manufactured good imports, 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.839 because China can produce everything else that needs domestically when 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.320 it comes to manufactured goods, and I think that speaks 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.360 to China's capabilities in this sphere, which means that the 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.280 more capabilities you give to China, the more you're be 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.240 able to use those to replace Western firms. And they're 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.439 desire to replace Western firms, and I think eminently well documented. 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.960 It's evidence in the fact that they don't buy anything 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.080 abroad unless they absolutely have to. And I think sem 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.720 conductor companies are all worried that their market share is 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.400 going to decline over time, and I think they all 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.480 realize that the more chip making tools that are hould 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:07.959 the China accelerates that process. 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.559 Just remind everybody sort of in the chip ecosystem and 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.880 the world of chip ecosystems, where broadcomplays. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.160 Broad comes one of the biggest designers of semiconductors. They 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.240 don't manufacture, but they do the design process, and they've 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:24.560 been focusing in particular on designing AI chips for other companies, 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.960 some of the big hyperscalers that are investing in their 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.320 own ship designs. Those are often done in partnership today 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:30.920 with Broadcom. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.640 So looking across the ecosystem, who does Broadcom have to 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.600 be most worried about? Because we got that report from 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.640 the information about Apple working with Broadcom. These two companies 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.160 have sort of done this dance of scorpions where they 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.280 sting each other. But also then well he was saying, 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.040 it was like, what mating scorpions? Is that right? 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.600 Yes? Or two scorpions mating? 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:50.400 Yeah, we're there. 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.040 You know, it's not easy. I wants a little complicated. 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:54.960 I won't describe it, but let's just use the term 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:55.840 frenemies instead. 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:56.400 Perfect. 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.680 You know, I think that's that's a great analo. Broad 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:02.800 companies is a really wide range of products, and so 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.880 they simultaneously cooperate and compete with a bunch of different 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.640 companies in the technology space. I think if you focus 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.080 on the AI portion of their portfolio, in some ways 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.080 they're competing with in Nvidia because a lot of the 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:20.440 in house design processors that the Hyperscalers are designing right 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:24.600 now are intended to be replacements for invidious products, at 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.200 least to a certain degree. And so I think investors 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.040 going to look at this result and ask, what does 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.280 this mean for the process of bringing more chip design 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.800 in house at some of the big hyperscalers. 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:37.440 Hey, Chris, can I have to leave it there? I 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.120 always love it when you take the time to join us. 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.720 Do appreciate that very much. Chris Miller Associate Professor of 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.240 International History at Tufts University. He's the author of the 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.000 New York Times best selling book Chip War, The Fight 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:55.480 for the World's most Critical Technology. 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:01.120 This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, live each weekday 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.480 starting a two pm Eastern on Applecarplay and the Android 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.400 Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.400 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.520 Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:15.120 Well. 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.680 The US, in case you hadn't noticed, is experiencing a 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.480 surge and power demand, with electricity consumption expected to climb 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.080 almost sixteen percent over the next five years. 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:25.200 Why you may. 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.320 Ask a few factors. Is it because we're all getting 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.080 EV's I don't think so. I could have seen to 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.360 do with it. A few factors and drivers of that demand, 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:37.360 including data centers, evs AI. Welcome everybody to the New 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.480 economy with more on what maybe the next supply demanded balance. 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.680 Are two killer members of our Bloomberg News team who 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.000 reported out this story. They are Bloomberg News Power and 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.960 Renewable Energy editor Will Wade, also with Bloomberg News Energy 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.720 and Climate Disasters reporter Josh Saul, both here in our 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.080 Bloomberg BusinessWeek studio. Will I want to start with you 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:59.160 and get an idea for consumption and where it exactly 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.840 is coming from. Is it all AI or the push 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.479 to move away from natural gas or heating and cooling? 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:08.520 Is that part of it? You know where's coming from? 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.639 It's all of it, and it's all happening all of 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:16.399 a sudden. So we've seen cloud computing. You know, everyone 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:18.600 wants to put all your photos and your files up 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.119 in the cloud. That's driving data centers, a lot of 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:24.280 data centers, and then all of a sudden, the same 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.000 big tech companies are starting to do AI, and that's 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:33.440 an enormous use of power. So we've got data centers, 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.040 and then AI data centers, and then we've got the 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:40.920 push to electrify everything. We want to use electric heating 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:43.080 in your house instead of gas, we want to use 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.480 electricity for your cars instead of gasoline. Where you've got 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:51.000 factories that are trying to use electricity for industrial heat 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:52.879 instead of gas or coal. 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:53.960 So it's just. 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.840 Coming from every direction. But the crazy thing is we 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.159 didn't really see this coming until about year ago. So 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:05.960 the utilities that build power plants, which takes years, weren't 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:10.600 really planning for it that effectively. So now there's a 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.120 potential looming shortage of electricity. 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.160 Which makes me wonder should we just stop talking about 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.040 the promise of AI and basically because we're not going 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.000 to have enough power to meet the demand, Like, should 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:23.439 we just stop it already because the expectations, the euphoria 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:25.720 will is not going to be able to be met 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:29.080 so easily or quickly, you know what the power demands. 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.959 I'm not so worried about running out of power, like 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.400 you turn on the light switch and there's no electricity 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.080 for the lights. What I'm worried about is people not 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:42.600 working for clean energy. So We're going to see electricity 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:44.080 from anywhere. 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:44.159 They can get it. 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.720 We got people building more gas plants than we've seen 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.040 in a long time. We got people that promise to 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.960 shut down coal plants. Now they're going, let's keep those 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.960 open a little longer. Yeah, Joshua, about the gas plants 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:55.640 a lot, we'll tell. 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.080 Us about that, right. So, there's a concept I wanted 0:18:58.080 --> 0:18:59.199 to bring up because I want to get I want 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:00.520 to get listeners from with it. 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:01.840 And it's baseload power. 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:04.520 So the deal with wind and solar power is that 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:06.840 it's intermittent, right, It's when when the wind is blowing, 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.080 when the sun is up. And it's very complicated to 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.360 arrange a grid with a lot of clean energy sources 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.639 because you have to balance the grid at all times. 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:17.119 And when people wake up in the morning, they need 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.760 the electricity running so they can run their appliances and 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.160 get ready for their day. And sometimes if the sun 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:24.440 isn't up at that point, that makes it tougher. What 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.679 gas is really good at a big gas power plant 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.760 is that it's baseload power just produces pretty close to 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.359 the same amount of power all the time. Gas also 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:36.959 produces carbon, which makes it a climate issue, which is 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:41.080 what Will's talking about. But we had the CEO of 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.320 g Vernova in recently and he basically says, yeah, our 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.720 windsails are pretty flat, but our gas business is going 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.239 bananas because they build the big gas turbines that that 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.359 power plants use to generate generate the power, and they've 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.879 increased manufacturing and they're selling huge amounts of these gas 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.200 turbines because that's what data centers. He told us. Yeah, 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:03.919 nobody's planning for anything other than twenty four to seven 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:05.520 power usage. 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.199 Is there a way that we can offload and by we, 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:11.879 I mean the United States can offload some of this 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:16.800 electricity usage, Josh outside of the country where electricity is 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.960 more abundant in the sense, build some of these server 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:25.320 farms in other places where there isn't an issue on 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:25.760 the grid. 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:28.240 It's it's complicated and it's hard to do. I mean 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:30.840 with with data centers. It's hard because some things that 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.119 are operating on the data center is certainly any anything 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.959 related to national security, and even lots of companies they 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:38.360 want their they want their data in the US, even 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:39.639 in you know, you imagine the. 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.320 Near shoring on shoring is like certainly something that you 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:43.960 see with the data centers, they want it nearby. 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:45.800 Yeah, I mean imagine a healthcare company. They don't want 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.520 all their data stored in some country that they don't 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.080 necessarily trust, so you run into issues with that. And 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.080 as far as moving other users of power, can't really 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:59.080 move homes overseas without moving the family there. Obviously, that's complicated. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:00.800 And then a big factor. You know, we want the 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:02.639 big factory here because we want the jobs and we 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.360 want the stuff produced here, so those power demands are 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:07.639 also on shore. 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:09.639 There's so many things that are coming to mind. Remind 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:11.840 us guys about the rules and regulations that are in 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.040 place in terms of carbon emissions, that the kind of 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:18.040 commitments that companies and individuals or institutions have to abide 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.840 by under the current administration or under the current rules, 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.919 and how a new administration might change some of that. 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.520 Okay, Well, when Biden came into office, he said he 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:33.200 wanted to have a clean power grid by twenty thirty five, 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:38.159 and they set a twenty fifty net zero target. But 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.119 these aren't really binding. 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:42.639 These were goals, and. 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:48.480 I'm seeing increasing pessimism about reaching those goals, and. 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.080 They don't even seem very close in the sense of 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:52.960 years like those are pretty far. 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.359 Up anyway, right, Yeah, but yeah, And we had so 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:00.600 many companies, especially in like maybe the last five five years, 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.280 come out with their own internal net zero goals, and 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:07.040 a lot of them are like really impressive and really ambitious. 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:09.680 We're going to you know, utilities that promise to stop 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.399 burning coal, big tech companies that said all of our 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:15.240 operations are going to be carbon free. 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:16.679 Yeah that was before chat GPT. 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:21.040 That's the problem. So these things were not binding, and 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.560 now we're seeing a lot of companies kind of going 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:26.080 radio silence on their goals, or some of them are 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:28.359 just straight out saying, yeah, we're not going to make that. 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:30.240 Doesn't matter if it's a global company in other words, 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:32.159 because it's got a deal by global rules and global 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:36.199 regulations or no, not necessarily in terms of hitting carbon emissions, 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:37.800 you know, reductions. 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:39.880 The utilities, so the power companies actually producing their power, 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:42.720 they're here, so their goals are here. We're already seeing 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:44.760 those get kind of a little eroded around the edges, 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:46.879 you know, companies saying well, we said we're going to 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:48.560 be done with coal by twenty thirty, we're actually going 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:50.399 to be running these coal plants a little longer, but 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:52.760 we're still sticking to our twenty fifty net zero goal. 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:54.720 We're kind of seeing those eroded a little bit. But 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:56.919 the way one energy analyst put it to me recently, 0:22:56.920 --> 0:22:59.520 as he said, I mean, unless unless the company's goals 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:01.960 are tied some kind of state law, they're not really 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:04.680 worth the paper they're written on, because they'll just keep 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:07.119 getting eroded, and then as it gets closer to twenty fifty, 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:10.080 they'll get you know, maybe maybe completely tossed out the window. 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:12.879 Hey will what about nuclear? Where does nuclear come into this? 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:14.640 Which is something like I feel like in the last 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:16.480 two years, we all of a sudden here everybody talking 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:17.080 about nuclear. 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:19.600 Yeah, but I mean you've spent a lot of times 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:23.119 short career facilities not so easy to just put a 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:24.960 whole put a shovel in the ground and build one. 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:25.960 No, nuclear is great. 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:28.040 I mean, Josh was talking about baseload power. You know, 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:31.000 it's even better for baseload nuclear it runs like ninety seven, 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.040 ninety eight, ninety nine percent of the time over the 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:34.880 course of a year. You know, it's not great about 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.679 nuclear takes years to build. So we've got all of 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:42.760 these companies seriously like the last couple of months, a 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.720 lot of the big temp, big tech companies have announced 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:49.960 these really big deals to use nuclear power to power 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:54.280 their data centers in twenty thirty something when they're built, 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:57.760 because there aren't any extra nuclear power plants laying around, 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:00.320 and it's going to take years to build them, and 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:04.159 they're working with companies that are developing new technologies, so 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:08.359 they hope they'll be ready in the next five years, 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:10.600 but it's you know, there's always the chance they can 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.600 get delayed, so in the meantime, there's gonna be a 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:14.119 lot of gas. 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:19.000 It's kind of ironic, right, The move to clean energy 0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:23.560 is kind of complicating this process, right in terms of wanting, 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:26.200 as you said, the electrification of so much that it's 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.760 making it difficult to kind of hit these targets. And 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:32.880 I'm looking at, you know, a headline from today California 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:36.320 reeling from extreme weathers, the wildfire risks return, and they 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:39.160 also talk about another atmospheric river up in northern California. 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.000 I mean, as we are talking about this, we continue 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:46.600 to see it firsthand and increasingly the impact of climate change. 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:49.760 So I just wonder kind of where this all leads us. 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.359 Yeah, that's the right question, and the answer is, we 0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:57.040 don't know. We are seeing climate disasters in real time. 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:00.080 In the summer, it's too hot now in the fall, 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:02.160 in the winter, we're getting too much rain. 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:04.959 Wildfires are like you're ering city, which are like unheard of, 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:08.520 Like yeah, make for great sunsets, but it smells bad 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:13.720 and it Yeah, we're seeing the climate really has been affected. 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:17.040 And that's the right question to ask, because yeah, all 0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:20.480 these factories are trying to decarbonize, but then where do 0:25:20.480 --> 0:25:23.119 you get the electricity? You know, the people to point out, Oh, 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:25.080 you think you're so green because you've got an EV, 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:28.760 but you're powering it with coal power. So there's a 0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:31.200 lot that has to happen. It's not an easy switch. 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:33.760 Well, Josh, this is your beat, I mean, your energy 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:36.920 and climate disasters reporter. So what is the fundamental connection 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:38.000 between these two things? 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:39.639 I see it. 0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:42.680 I see it that of course, the factories that produce 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:46.480 the things we need for clean energy require power, but 0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:49.480 anything that we produce requires power. So I think overall 0:25:49.760 --> 0:25:53.120 that transition is still good for decarbonization, is still good 0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:56.879 for putting less carbon into the atmosphere, and hopefully at 0:25:56.960 --> 0:25:59.879 least not accelerating those kinds of wildfires and those other 0:25:59.880 --> 0:26:03.600 things we're talking about, and I think that's more important. 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.840 Okay, so we'll come on in here because you mentioned 0:26:06.840 --> 0:26:08.920 the grid, and this is something that we haven't spent 0:26:08.960 --> 0:26:11.639 a lot of time talking about the health of the grid, 0:26:11.840 --> 0:26:13.520 and it's sort of this patchwork at least here in 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:17.040 the United States, where you know you have Texas always 0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:18.960 comes to mind, for example, given the freeze that they 0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:21.680 saw a few years ago in the failure of the grid. 0:26:21.840 --> 0:26:24.040 Where does the stability of the grid come into the conversation? 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.679 That's another huge issue. A lot of the grid is 0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:31.160 not so stable. You know, a lot of the wires 0:26:31.200 --> 0:26:35.280 have been in standing there for years and when a 0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:38.680 hurricane comes through, they get knocked down. The utilities say 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:41.360 they want to underground the wires because it's more reliable, 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:45.840 which is a great idea, but expensive. You use the 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:48.800 word patchwork. I think that's a pretty good word, especially 0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:53.560 because it's multiple systems operated by so many different companies 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:58.919 and so many different jurisdictions with different rules. It's complicated. 0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:02.480 Well, we know it's like that, Josh. I also do 0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:05.159 wonder is there something else within the all the energy 0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:07.560 space or new energy space that we're not talking about. 0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:10.480 My husband constantly is like, what about hydrogen fuel cells? 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:12.840 Like that makes sense to me. Like, I'm just curious, 0:27:12.880 --> 0:27:14.520 is there something that I don't know, whether it's in 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:16.879 the next year, next six months, or next two years, 0:27:16.960 --> 0:27:19.760 that we start talking about that might help the situation. 0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:22.840 I think a lot of a lot of those things, fusion, hydrogen, 0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:25.720 a lot of those things are pretty far off. I 0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:27.560 think right now it kind of is just back to 0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:30.159 the basics that wind and solar takes a lot of 0:27:30.280 --> 0:27:33.359 takes some pressure off of the grid, and but yeah, 0:27:33.480 --> 0:27:35.600 right now, it just looks like the next year looks 0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:36.679 like just more gas. 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:40.440 That was Bloomberg News Power and Renewable Energy editor Will Wade, 0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:44.440 along with Bloomberg News Energy and Climate Disasters reporter Josh Saw. 0:27:44.600 --> 0:27:46.720 You know, Tim, I think about right after two years 0:27:46.720 --> 0:27:50.080 of doing nothing about AI investing and focusing on Nvidia 0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:52.560 and everybody spending and so on and so forth and 0:27:52.600 --> 0:27:54.480 doing kind of their build out, all of a sudden, 0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:57.399 it's like breaks on because people are saying, wait a minute, 0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:00.320 we got to have the power to fuel all the 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:03.320 AI computations that are necessary. 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:05.480 I thought a lot about this when I was out 0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:07.960 for the holiday break, because I was on the central 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:12.240 coast of California and Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant is 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:14.080 right on the central coast where I was, and we 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:16.960 actually went to the beach right where the nuclear power 0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:20.280 plan is. I thought to myself, incredible to see the 0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:24.520 attention on this facility as a result of power demand. 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:26.520 And this power plan on the central coast of California 0:28:26.600 --> 0:28:29.480 was set to be shut down right and Governor Gavin 0:28:29.520 --> 0:28:31.639 Newsom extended it as a result of power demand. 0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:34.280 Get ready, folks, for a lot more on this front 0:28:34.320 --> 0:28:38.000 to come. Twenty twenty five. Still ahead on Bloomberg Business Week. 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:40.720 Our Bloomberg Intelligence team has done the research, the work, 0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:42.800 and they have the fifty companies to keep your eye 0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:43.760 on this year. 0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:45.840 Hey, they did the work, but we get to share 0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:48.280 the findings. That's next. This is Bloomberg. 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:52.360 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:28:52.440 --> 0:28:55.880 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen 0:28:55.920 --> 0:28:59.440 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:02.280 or live on YouTube. 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:05.880 Artificial intelligence was, yeah, no doubt about it. A big 0:29:05.920 --> 0:29:09.080 factor to watch for in the twenty twenty four year 0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:11.960 ahead issue of the Bloomberg BusinessWeek Fifty Companies to Watch 0:29:11.960 --> 0:29:14.640 that was one year ago. We know how the AI 0:29:14.720 --> 0:29:17.600 revolution played out this past year continued to play out. 0:29:17.800 --> 0:29:19.640 For the companies and trends to keep an eye on. 0:29:19.680 --> 0:29:22.680 For twenty twenty five, we turned to the annual list 0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:23.760 we love to highlight. 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:27.240 The list comes courtesy of Bloomberg Intelligence and its analysts, 0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:30.480 who track some two thousand companies and sectors ranging from 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:33.360 finance to food, who have once again come out with 0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:36.120 its annual list of companies that weren't a closer look, 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:38.520 which you can read now on the Bloomberg terminal and 0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:41.440 at Bloomberg dot com Slash BusinessWeek, as well as the 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:44.080 January issue of Bloomberg BusinessWeek magazine. 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:47.360 To help break down some of the top names to watch, 0:29:47.440 --> 0:29:50.800 we spoke with Bloomberg Intelligence Senior European strategist and Director 0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:52.880 of Research Content, Tim Craighead. 0:29:53.320 --> 0:29:57.840 The fifty Companies to Watch are based largely off of 0:29:57.840 --> 0:30:02.280 a group of companies that we have as focus ideas, 0:30:02.520 --> 0:30:05.400 and our focus ideas are where our analysts around the 0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:09.560 globe on a bottom up basis, sector by sector, are 0:30:09.600 --> 0:30:14.720 looking for fundamental situations where they have a really strong view, 0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:18.360 a high conviction view that they think is out of consensus, 0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:22.480 that's differentiated from what the market is thinking. And we 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:26.640 zero in on fifty out of that broader list that 0:30:26.720 --> 0:30:30.320 have specific catalysts in twenty twenty five in this case 0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:34.960 that we think will bring the bring the market around 0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:37.760 to our point of view. And you know, it's pretty 0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:44.000 balanced across sectors. About half our US or America is oriented. 0:30:44.760 --> 0:30:47.440 The other fifty percent are sort of equally split between 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:51.240 Europe and Asia about twenty percent or negative, about eighty 0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:54.320 percent or positive. So there's a good balance around. And 0:30:54.520 --> 0:30:57.320 you know, there's lots of different drivers, you know, company 0:30:57.320 --> 0:31:00.040 about company and sort of theme by theme. 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:02.680 And there are some buckets tam that they fall into, 0:31:03.000 --> 0:31:06.719 whether it's cyclical recovery AI related, which tends to hit 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:09.160 a lot of companies nowadays. But give give us a 0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:10.280 little bit of context on that. 0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:15.000 Yeah, it's an interesting thing because if I actually juxtaposed 0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:19.320 this year versus last AI was a big deal a 0:31:19.400 --> 0:31:21.680 year ago, but it was a lot of the big 0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:25.840 AI companies, the software companies, the LLM guys and whatnot. 0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:31.480 This year it's more geared towards the semiconductors and enabling 0:31:31.600 --> 0:31:34.240 technologies behind it. We can get into some of those. 0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:36.760 China was a big deal last year, but it was 0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:41.120 all negative about the property crisis. This year, the list 0:31:41.160 --> 0:31:44.240 has changed complexion from a China perspective, and it's more 0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:47.640 positive oriented about a cyclical recovery because of the stimulus 0:31:47.680 --> 0:31:50.680 that's coming through, you know. And you can also look 0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:54.320 at other topics such as a broader based cyclical recovery 0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:58.720 in Europe or the US because of lower interest rates. 0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:01.680 There's a lot of innovation and new product stories in 0:32:01.720 --> 0:32:03.440 there as well, and some other factors. 0:32:03.560 --> 0:32:05.400 All right, we want to get into some of the names. 0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:07.400 I know it's alphabetical, but we got to get into 0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:10.760 first of all, Broadcom. Why are you guys highlighting it? 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:15.920 Well? Broadcom is interesting because you think of this as 0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:20.040 a semiconductor company, but it's much more than a simic 0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:24.920 inductor company because it's gotten into infrastructure software and it's 0:32:24.960 --> 0:32:29.120 one of the few companies that combines semiconductors and software. 0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:32.360 And importantly, it's part of the AI theme because a 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:39.200 lot of what it's doing feeds into the whole AI story, 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:42.400 whether it's with Google or Meta or what have you. 0:32:42.440 --> 0:32:45.800 So you know, it's a pretty intriguing story. And you 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:48.680 know software business came from you know, their acquisition of 0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:51.720 VMware a couple of years ago. 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:54.080 Why is Tesla on the list this year? 0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:56.840 So Tesla is there, and I'm going to bring in 0:32:56.880 --> 0:32:59.320 one other company at the same time. This falls into 0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:04.840 that category of new products, innovation and whatnot. Obviously, Tesla 0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:07.600 is all about electric vehicles, but importantly, as we look 0:33:07.640 --> 0:33:11.880 into next year, there's new vehicles that are coming through 0:33:12.120 --> 0:33:17.120 an important refresh of their their core cars, and we 0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:22.880 think that that's an opportunity for a lift. Similarly, Porsche, Uh, 0:33:23.480 --> 0:33:26.560 you know, we all like Porsches. I think we all 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:30.240 like Porsches. I'd like to like a Porsche they got. 0:33:31.440 --> 0:33:34.000 Well, I'm going to tell you you can like it. 0:33:34.000 --> 0:33:36.800 It's just right about ownership, right, yeah. 0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:40.440 Well it's funny because back in the day, you know, 0:33:40.480 --> 0:33:45.120 these were relatively well, relatively affordable. The way that Porsche 0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:48.920 has driven its business pun intended is to go higher 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:51.920 and higher end to where you know, the the average 0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:55.600 selling price of their cars are quite significant. And essentially 0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:57.920 what they're trying to do is attain a Ferrari like 0:33:58.200 --> 0:34:01.640 profit margin. And and they've got number of products, whether 0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:07.000 it's hybrid related or other, that should help propel the 0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:10.440 company along in its profits and its margins along, interestingly, 0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:13.080 and it flies a little bit in the face of 0:34:13.160 --> 0:34:18.840 Tesla clearly that's pure battery electric vehicle. There has certainly 0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:22.480 been a palls in the US and in Europe about 0:34:22.640 --> 0:34:27.799 that whole sort of transition to electric vehicles, and Borsh's 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:31.680 core combustion engine business is doing better than what a 0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:33.040 lot of people thought it was going to do. 0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:35.200 Tim, I want to stick with the transportation theme here 0:34:35.239 --> 0:34:37.200 and talk Airbus because a lot has happened with this 0:34:37.320 --> 0:34:40.400 duopoly over the last year, including at the beginning of 0:34:40.440 --> 0:34:43.000 this year that a door panel blowing out on that 0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:46.680 seven thirty seven Max that Alaska Airlines jet and that 0:34:46.760 --> 0:34:51.759 sort of sent Boeing into its most recent struggles and 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:55.080 new executive there and the like why air Bus on 0:34:55.120 --> 0:34:55.479 the list. 0:34:56.040 --> 0:34:58.400 Yeah, So there's a couple of elements that play in. 0:34:58.560 --> 0:35:01.680 Part of it is just pure cyclical recovery. You know, 0:35:01.719 --> 0:35:07.520 there is continued recovery and air traffic. There's continued recovery 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:12.640 and order flow for airlines. And at the same time 0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:16.240 there's been a real constraint on supply on the supply 0:35:16.440 --> 0:35:22.680 channel going into the airline or airframe business. We think 0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.240 both of these elements are in play for twenty twenty five. 0:35:26.440 --> 0:35:29.160 And to the degree that Airbus, we. 0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:33.440 Think continues to gain relative market share versus Boeing. You know, 0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:36.440 there's an host of factors that play into a pretty 0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:37.399 positive view here. 0:35:37.880 --> 0:35:40.120 All Right, I like planes too, but I also like makeup. 0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:43.239 I'm just going to put trains that. 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:46.840 There is a train company on the list, a railroad 0:35:46.880 --> 0:35:48.360 on the list, right, Steve Tas. 0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:49.840 All right, all right, we're going to get back to 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:50.400 that in a moment. 0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:50.839 St. 0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:53.080 Latter I want to bring that one. It's been under pressure. 0:35:53.120 --> 0:35:55.440 It's a well known company, I kind of company in 0:35:55.840 --> 0:35:58.480 the cosmetic business. If you go back to STI Latter 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:01.480 who created it. It has gone through some changes. It's 0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:03.319 down I think more than forty percent this year, but 0:36:03.320 --> 0:36:06.200 it's been on quite a rally since kind of mid November, 0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:09.400 up about thirty percent. You guys highlighted it. Are you 0:36:09.480 --> 0:36:13.840 expecting some kind of not liquidation, but some kind of 0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:17.360 I don't know event that maybe changes the fortunes going forward? 0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:22.960 Yeah? Well so stay Lotder is an interesting one because 0:36:23.560 --> 0:36:27.400 you have to love the brands that make up Stay Lotder, 0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:30.359 you know, whether it's Stay Lotder itself or. 0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:31.160 Mac or. 0:36:32.640 --> 0:36:35.920 Clinique what have you. But it really does seem like 0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:39.560 they've lost a bit of an edge in some of 0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:46.360 their brands. They're also particularly skewed towards airline I should 0:36:46.400 --> 0:36:51.560 say airport travel related retail, which continues to be under pressure. 0:36:51.920 --> 0:36:56.640 Notwithstanding air travel coming back spending all duty free has 0:36:56.680 --> 0:37:00.359 continued to remain a pressure point. We think Stay Laughter 0:37:00.960 --> 0:37:04.280 continues to have some potential for disappointment in the first 0:37:04.280 --> 0:37:07.960 half of the year before maybe things then come around. 0:37:08.040 --> 0:37:13.279 They've announced a big restructuring that will happen. We think 0:37:13.320 --> 0:37:16.360 actually that restructuring charge that they'll take could actually be 0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:20.879 even more with a new with new CEO who's coming 0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:24.839 in place, So stay tuned. By the end of next 0:37:24.920 --> 0:37:27.120 year there could be an interesting recovery. But it's a 0:37:27.200 --> 0:37:28.839 rough road in between now and then. 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:31.200 All right, I'm getting back to transit and get to say, 0:37:31.200 --> 0:37:33.359 planes makeup and trains. Yeah, Planes make up and Trains 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:35.000 doesn't have the same ring to it with the John 0:37:35.040 --> 0:37:39.480 Candy film Norfolk Southern. What's going on with Norfolk Southern? 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:43.680 So it's an interesting story. I have a long long 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:48.040 standing association with Norfolk Southern previously Norfolk and Western. My 0:37:48.160 --> 0:37:50.960 dad worked there for over forty years to rest his soul. 0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:51.920 And. 0:37:53.880 --> 0:37:59.760 They've had issues over the last couple of years. Unlike Union, 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:02.480 which actually was on our list last year, that had 0:38:02.520 --> 0:38:09.160 really gotten moving with precision rail to be very precise 0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:12.239 in the logistics and it's really good for customers and 0:38:12.239 --> 0:38:16.040 it's great for the margins and efficiency. Norfolk Southern had 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:20.040 been lagging. They have a new CEO who's in, They're 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:24.319 bringing management in who's much more geared towards this precision transportation. 0:38:25.080 --> 0:38:27.600 We think this is a recovery story in two thousand 0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:31.319 and twenty five, somewhat akin to what we had seen 0:38:31.480 --> 0:38:32.680 at U and P last year. 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:36.560 You said twenty percent negative eighty percent positive stories. Is 0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:38.360 it always that mix or does it tell you anything 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:40.920 about kind of sentiment or what's going on in the market. 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:44.320 No, you know, we try to have a balance of 0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:48.160 you know, this standard view is looking at glass half full, 0:38:48.200 --> 0:38:51.760 but we tried to keep an eye out towards where 0:38:51.800 --> 0:38:55.720 do we see expectations that have run too far too fast? 0:38:55.960 --> 0:38:59.280 And you know, our ideas range from a couple of banks, 0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:02.040 to some consumer product companies, to tech companies. 0:39:03.040 --> 0:39:07.200 So yes, that's Tim Craighead, Senior European strategist and director 0:39:07.239 --> 0:39:10.359 of Research content for Bloomberg Intelligence. Check out the full 0:39:10.360 --> 0:39:13.480 list online at Bloomberg dot com, slash BusinessWeek, and on 0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:14.520 the Bloomberg terminal. 0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:16.280 And we should point out, you know, one other company 0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:19.040 we talked about with Tim Craighead that was in that 0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:24.040 interview was Broadcom. You know the earnings. Broadcom's last earnings report, 0:39:24.040 --> 0:39:26.239 which came out after the publishing of Business Weeks fifty 0:39:26.280 --> 0:39:29.160 Companies to Watch, really supported why this company made the 0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:32.720 list in the first place. Broadcom's twenty twenty four revenue 0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:35.520 in the last quarter tim increased forty four percent year 0:39:35.560 --> 0:39:38.120 over year to a record fifty one point six billion, 0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:41.080 and largely due to a strong demand for AI chips. 0:39:41.280 --> 0:39:43.239 And then the stock swored to a one trillion dollar 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:46.040 market evaluation on the news it's share price more than 0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:49.279 doubling this past year. It is now, I believe Tim, 0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:51.479 because these things move around a little bit, the second 0:39:51.520 --> 0:39:53.360 most valuable chip company behind Nvidio. 0:39:53.440 --> 0:39:55.239 Look, this is why you should pay attention to what 0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:58.799 Bloomberg Intelligence and Tim Craighead and the team. Right, here's 0:39:58.840 --> 0:40:02.920 what they wrote about ahead of those numbers. They right 0:40:03.000 --> 0:40:06.200 that it provides a unique combination of advanced semiconductors and 0:40:06.239 --> 0:40:09.920 infrastructure software, and it's positioned this year for accelerated growth. 0:40:10.080 --> 0:40:13.080 It's among the leading suppliers of semiconductors used in advanced 0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:16.160 networks that connect AI computers and data centers, and it 0:40:16.239 --> 0:40:19.399 has a growing business selling custom AI chips to Yes, 0:40:19.600 --> 0:40:21.360 Google and meta platforms. 0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:23.400 I love that, so spot on right, And again that 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:27.879 was ahead of Broadcom's earnings, which showed that momentum. Hey, 0:40:27.880 --> 0:40:30.319 another company that Tim mentioned you just heard about it though, 0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:32.880 was Tesla. But Tesla also came out with some news 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:36.240 after we talked with Tim. Tesla's annual vehicle sales dropping 0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:38.440 for the first time in more than a decade, despite 0:40:38.440 --> 0:40:40.840 a year and push that sent deliveries to a record 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:43.440 in the fourth quarter. And we did see Tesla's shares 0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:46.400 dropping specifically on that news. All Right, that wraps up 0:40:46.440 --> 0:40:48.720 our first hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business 0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:51.279 Week from Bloomberg Radio. Coming up in our next hour, 0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:54.560 a former healthcare CEO on the importance of paying workers 0:40:54.760 --> 0:40:57.640 a living wage and why he says that is good 0:40:57.680 --> 0:40:58.200 for business. 0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:05.080 Plus Blue Sky versus Okay, Elon versus Altman, Sure, and 0:41:05.160 --> 0:41:07.600 Paddington Bear versus dog Man. 0:41:07.680 --> 0:41:07.879 What. 0:41:08.239 --> 0:41:09.879 I don't know what's going on here, but we're gonna 0:41:09.880 --> 0:41:12.040 break down the feuds that are going to define twenty 0:41:12.080 --> 0:41:13.080 twenty five something. 0:41:13.160 --> 0:41:15.640 It sounds like that Max Chofkin would talk about, So 0:41:15.719 --> 0:41:18.480 he's coming up in the next hour. Totally, totally. Plus, 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:20.439 travel was back in a big way in twenty twenty four. 0:41:20.440 --> 0:41:21.040 You know that. 0:41:21.200 --> 0:41:23.759 So have we all hit the hotspots? Nope, says our 0:41:23.800 --> 0:41:28.120 Bloomberg Pursuits team. We have the best cities, resorts, restaurants, 0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:30.960 and museums to visit in the year ahead, courtesy of 0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:34.320 our Pursuits team. And even better, we've compiled the costs 0:41:34.360 --> 0:41:36.080 of each and every trip. All you need to do 0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:41.600 is pack your bags. 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:46.680 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Listen live each 0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:49.719 weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play 0:41:49.800 --> 0:41:52.640 and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:55.839 also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 0:41:55.920 --> 0:41:59.400 York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven. 0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:02.520 Thirty Play ahead in our second hour of our first 0:42:02.560 --> 0:42:05.520 weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week of twenty twenty five, 0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:08.359 we continue our look ahead, including the feuds that will 0:42:08.400 --> 0:42:11.640 define the new year. Some beefs we knew, others we 0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:13.320 probably don't see coming. 0:42:13.520 --> 0:42:17.000 Plus our Bloomberg Pursuits team, in collaboration with Kayak, out 0:42:17.000 --> 0:42:19.279 with a list of the best places worth checking out 0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:22.759 this year. This time, they've got an interactive breakdown of 0:42:22.800 --> 0:42:25.239 the costs at your fingertips. You are not going to 0:42:25.280 --> 0:42:28.120 believe so cool. This tool tells you when to go, 0:42:28.640 --> 0:42:30.960 how much it's going to cost you. And even though 0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:33.600 it's in Pursuits, Carol, there are some affordable destinations. 0:42:33.760 --> 0:42:36.160 Yeah, and some of them don't require a passport. That's all. 0:42:36.160 --> 0:42:37.640 I'm going to put it out there, some of them, 0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:40.000 some of them first up this hour. It's something we 0:42:40.040 --> 0:42:42.640 talk a lot about here on Business Week, and that 0:42:42.760 --> 0:42:45.640 is the gap between how much executives make versus those 0:42:45.920 --> 0:42:48.319 on the front lines. Check this out. According to the 0:42:48.360 --> 0:42:53.799 Economic Policy Institute, CEO compensation rose by one eighty five 0:42:53.840 --> 0:42:57.719 percent between nineteen seventy eight and twenty twenty three, while 0:42:57.719 --> 0:43:01.440 the typical workers compensation only rose twenty four percent. The 0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:05.080 Economic Policy Institute also notes that in twenty twenty three, 0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:08.359 CEOs made two hundred and ninety times as much as 0:43:08.400 --> 0:43:11.359 the typical worker, compared to twenty one times as much 0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:14.080 back in nineteen sixty five. Times have changed him. 0:43:14.400 --> 0:43:16.120 This may be a surprise to you, but not to 0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:18.480 our next guest too, says we need to quote pay 0:43:18.520 --> 0:43:22.000 the People. John Driscoll is the former CEO of care Centrix. 0:43:22.320 --> 0:43:24.920 It was bought by Walgreens Boots Alliance more than two 0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:28.480 years ago. He currently chairs Magnet Global, and international staffing 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:31.480 company that manages over seven hundred thousand employees. 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:34.040 John is also author of the book Pay the People. 0:43:34.120 --> 0:43:37.160 Why fair pay is good for business and great for America. 0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:40.759 I'm really focusing on making the case that it's good 0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:42.960 for business and it's good for America if we can 0:43:43.239 --> 0:43:46.120 get to a living wage. We lost the string a 0:43:46.160 --> 0:43:50.920 while ago. Between the nineteen thirties and nineteen eighty, median 0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:53.920 productivity United States went up by about ninety seven percent 0:43:54.000 --> 0:43:57.320 and the median wages went up by about ninety percent. 0:43:57.719 --> 0:44:00.800 Since nineteen eighty two, today, product he's gone up another 0:44:00.880 --> 0:44:04.160 ninety percent, but wages median wages have only gone up 0:44:04.239 --> 0:44:09.120 by nine the gap. It's inconceivable that we should sort 0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:13.160 of push working class folks farther and farther away from 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:16.440 being able to take part in this great capitalist adventure 0:44:16.800 --> 0:44:17.600 that's working for. 0:44:17.520 --> 0:44:18.319 So many of us. 0:44:18.600 --> 0:44:21.719 But you know, there's forty million people in America who 0:44:21.760 --> 0:44:23.680 aren't earning a living wage. 0:44:23.960 --> 0:44:26.920 Do you think the incentives are misaligned? Because if we 0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:30.040 think about and you've been part of publicly traded companies before, 0:44:30.640 --> 0:44:33.840 what do investors care about? They care about the top line, 0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:35.239 and they care about the bottom we. 0:44:35.200 --> 0:44:37.719 Never talk about. Okay, so they'll you know how much? 0:44:37.880 --> 0:44:38.560 Yeah, how much? 0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:40.680 Did you know the people on the front lines make you. 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:43.040 Know what they care? They care about automation and increasing margins. 0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:43.400 Yeah. 0:44:43.480 --> 0:44:46.520 But I think though that you're starting to see things 0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:47.640 change you at my own. 0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:50.560 Companies is twenty eighteen with the economic roundtable. Well, it's 0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:51.239 only gotten work. 0:44:51.760 --> 0:44:53.640 I think that the Well, first of all, the trend's 0:44:53.640 --> 0:44:55.879 been horrible for the last thirty years, as I. 0:44:55.880 --> 0:44:56.680 Just pointed out. 0:44:56.840 --> 0:45:00.000 But at my own company, when we froze executive salary 0:45:00.360 --> 0:45:04.000 and double minimum wage twelve years ago, retention went up, 0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:06.680 engagement went up, but productivity also went up by about 0:45:06.719 --> 0:45:07.360 thirty percent. 0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:08.400 And you're starting to. 0:45:08.400 --> 0:45:11.319 See some of the most successful companies in America, Bank 0:45:11.360 --> 0:45:14.759 of America JP Morgan also raised their wages to a 0:45:14.800 --> 0:45:17.280 living wage. They did it as part of that business 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:22.719 Roundtable commitment. But what they found is that it lowered 0:45:22.960 --> 0:45:24.839 the number of people who were leaving their jobs. Because 0:45:24.880 --> 0:45:27.239 people who are working in minimum wage jobs are often 0:45:27.280 --> 0:45:30.279 working two jobs, they're not as engaged. They found that 0:45:30.320 --> 0:45:33.000 productivity went up. What they invested in kind of a 0:45:33.920 --> 0:45:36.520 if you want a fair or social contract, they found 0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:39.399 they had a more successful and profitable business. I think 0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:41.919 the most important thing is we get the story out 0:45:41.920 --> 0:45:45.040 that it is a productivity gain and a win for 0:45:45.080 --> 0:45:49.279 the companies, and also that I don't think that capitalism 0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:52.640 can easily be sustained if the bottom third of the 0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:56.680 workforce isn't really part of If the company wins. 0:45:56.440 --> 0:45:58.840 You win, So why don't we do it? Then you 0:45:58.920 --> 0:46:02.239 lay out a really good an argument, why isn't it 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:03.440 that more companies don't do that? 0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:05.520 Well, That's what I am focused right now, Carol, on 0:46:05.640 --> 0:46:08.520 selling that story and telling that story, because even for 0:46:08.600 --> 0:46:12.560 the executives that have done it, they're surprised at how 0:46:13.640 --> 0:46:17.400 it increases how long folks stay at jobs. It increases 0:46:17.480 --> 0:46:20.200 their productivity. But that's not a story that many people 0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:22.919 have told, and they certainly haven't told it with very 0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:26.560 specific examples. You know, our ability to pay claims grew 0:46:26.640 --> 0:46:30.400 by thirty percent, people stated our company for longer. We 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:34.120 had fewer people quietly quitting or quitting very quickly, and 0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:37.680 so I think it's selling and telling that story. I 0:46:37.719 --> 0:46:40.600 also think that we're getting the message in a lot 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:41.319 of different ways. 0:46:41.360 --> 0:46:43.399 I think the reason why we have so. 0:46:43.440 --> 0:46:49.160 Much rancor anger and discontentment in working class voters of 0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:52.600 all races and backgrounds is they're not really feeling like 0:46:52.640 --> 0:46:55.919 they're part of business, of an America that works, where 0:46:55.960 --> 0:46:57.960 business is clearly working and being successful. 0:46:58.040 --> 0:46:58.560 Chaus Johnny. 0:46:58.600 --> 0:46:59.919 One of the things Tim and I have talked about 0:46:59.920 --> 0:47:01.480 it a lot, and you write about the restaurant in 0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:05.000 Association and the restaurant industry that I feel like, first 0:47:05.040 --> 0:47:06.920 of all, we feel like there's a tip jar everywhere, 0:47:07.120 --> 0:47:09.160 and to me, it just says we're not paying workers enough. 0:47:09.280 --> 0:47:13.000 And I like, why aren't companies paying workers? Why do 0:47:14.000 --> 0:47:15.799 I have like I would rather pay more for an 0:47:15.840 --> 0:47:18.680 item and just ensure that these workers are getting paid. 0:47:19.400 --> 0:47:22.000 I think about the restaurant industry that you know, right, 0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:23.759 they expect that they're going to be tips, Like, how 0:47:23.800 --> 0:47:25.400 do we kind of rework that? 0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:28.200 Well, I think we have to actually tell the story, 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:30.760 sell the story, and then organize. But there are plenty 0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:34.960 of examples. Danny Meyers has been a leader and a 0:47:35.000 --> 0:47:38.759 supporter of the movement that we're working on, which is 0:47:38.800 --> 0:47:41.680 to eliminate kind of the tipped minimum wage, which is 0:47:41.719 --> 0:47:45.000 still at three dollars and twenty five cents. It's unbelievable, 0:47:45.000 --> 0:47:49.360 and you start think if you're we're not talking about Danielle, 0:47:49.400 --> 0:47:52.080 we're talking about most people are working at Denny's. And 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:54.680 when you increase the minimum wage and you get to 0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:59.200 a fair wage. You know, California raise the fast food minimum. 0:47:58.880 --> 0:48:00.520 Wage to twenty an hour. 0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:02.520 I thought it was an odd thing to do, but 0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:05.200 there was a lot of complaints that that would harm 0:48:05.280 --> 0:48:08.840 the industry. There's thousands more fast food jobs. 0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:10.279 Now, why did you think it was an odd thing 0:48:10.320 --> 0:48:10.560 to do? 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:12.960 Well, I think it was odd to just bring it 0:48:13.040 --> 0:48:16.839 up for one category. For me, the most important thing 0:48:16.920 --> 0:48:20.120 is to eliminate minimum wage across the board and get 0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:21.080 to a living wage. 0:48:21.160 --> 0:48:22.879 Get to I mean again, you've got. 0:48:22.880 --> 0:48:26.440 Forty million people where they're working full time jobs, and 0:48:26.480 --> 0:48:30.080 one job doesn't afford them enough to live independently and 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:31.120 pay their bills. 0:48:31.200 --> 0:48:34.319 What do you think of the most wealthy people in 0:48:34.360 --> 0:48:36.600 the world right now, someone like Elon Musk, for example, 0:48:36.600 --> 0:48:39.520 whose fortune has increased by roughly two hundred million dollars 0:48:39.640 --> 0:48:41.640 just since the election. What do you make of the 0:48:41.640 --> 0:48:43.160 concentration of wealth at the very top. 0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:45.800 Well, I think one of the things that we actually 0:48:45.840 --> 0:48:49.799 got me excited about patriotic millionaires is that we I 0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:53.799 was deeply offended by the notion of the elimination the 0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:57.440 reduction of taxes on the most wealthy and the reduction 0:48:57.800 --> 0:49:00.800 of the estate tax, because I think the the threat 0:49:00.800 --> 0:49:07.240 of intergenerational oligarchic wealth of massive scale, intentionally or unintentionally 0:49:07.280 --> 0:49:11.640 disdistorting the politics of the moment is a real challenge. 0:49:11.680 --> 0:49:13.879 And that was twenty years ago when I started, when 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:16.879 I worked started working with patriotic millionaires. But I don't 0:49:16.920 --> 0:49:21.359 think the biggest problem we have is the massive accumulation 0:49:21.480 --> 0:49:23.839 at the top, because part of that's related to technology. 0:49:24.040 --> 0:49:24.719 It's the fact that we. 0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:28.080 Cut off the bottom third of workers in America, and 0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:32.120 that's not going to be good for the economy. If 0:49:32.160 --> 0:49:33.799 more and more people feel like they're not part of 0:49:33.800 --> 0:49:34.520 the American dream. 0:49:34.520 --> 0:49:35.320 We're the only. 0:49:35.160 --> 0:49:38.840 Country that dream is associated with the country. Our country 0:49:38.880 --> 0:49:41.960 is held together by this notion that we're in it together. 0:49:42.280 --> 0:49:44.840 If that, if the bottom third of America does, from 0:49:44.880 --> 0:49:48.040 a wages and wealth perspective, doesn't feel like they're part 0:49:48.040 --> 0:49:50.040 of it, I worry about democracy. 0:49:50.320 --> 0:49:52.040 I think there are plenty of things you could do 0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:52.920 in tax. 0:49:52.640 --> 0:49:56.439 Policy to increase to certainly make sure that, as Warren 0:49:56.480 --> 0:49:59.680 Buffett says, he isn't paying a lower percentage of taxes 0:49:59.800 --> 0:50:02.480 than his assistant. I think we should have a fair 0:50:02.840 --> 0:50:06.760 inheritance SAX so we don't have these massive concentrations of wealth. 0:50:06.920 --> 0:50:09.479 But the urgent problem of today is to pay people 0:50:09.480 --> 0:50:12.640 who are working hard, leaning in people who are at 0:50:12.920 --> 0:50:15.480 at the bottom third of the wage scale, who are really, 0:50:15.640 --> 0:50:18.520 you know, running up a down escalator of costs, particularly 0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:19.440 a time of inflation. 0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:21.640 So how do we get executives to start thinking about it. 0:50:21.680 --> 0:50:24.920 We have many conversations with CEOs. We often do hear 0:50:24.960 --> 0:50:27.600 about having to pay up for talent, but I'm assuming 0:50:27.600 --> 0:50:31.279 they mean executives and folks kind of higher up in 0:50:31.320 --> 0:50:33.879 their company and not necessarily everyone how do we get 0:50:33.920 --> 0:50:36.920 them to think about that all across all of the 0:50:36.920 --> 0:50:37.759 workers that they pay for. 0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:40.480 Well, I don't know how we convince them, but the 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:43.920 voters are already there. Raising the minimum wage to a 0:50:44.040 --> 0:50:47.120 higher level has won in almost I think it's I 0:50:47.120 --> 0:50:50.200 think it's nineteen out of twenty states it's been put 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:53.080 on the ballot in the last election cycle. Raising the 0:50:53.120 --> 0:50:56.279 minimum wage won by six points in Missouri, it went 0:50:56.400 --> 0:50:59.040 easily in Alaska. Those are both Trump plus ten or 0:50:59.080 --> 0:50:59.880 twenty states. 0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:01.319 And the and the the. 0:51:01.239 --> 0:51:05.840 Republican attempt to reduce the raise raising the tip minimum 0:51:05.840 --> 0:51:08.759 wage actually was defeated at the ballot box in Arizona. 0:51:09.040 --> 0:51:11.359 So the voters are already there. I think the only 0:51:11.400 --> 0:51:14.520 way we're going to get there today is politically, because 0:51:14.840 --> 0:51:18.239 the if you have to convince one executive at a time, 0:51:18.520 --> 0:51:21.080 will be here forever through voters. We have to we 0:51:21.160 --> 0:51:22.719 have to put it on the ballot, we have to 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:23.800 get it through Congress. 0:51:24.040 --> 0:51:25.920 And I think, what's what's what? 0:51:25.920 --> 0:51:29.279 What what's remarkable to me is the Republican voters are 0:51:29.280 --> 0:51:29.879 already there. 0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:32.600 Is it a zero sum game? Like? Is it if 0:51:32.800 --> 0:51:35.320 to pay workers more, do executives have to earn less? 0:51:35.520 --> 0:51:36.960 Not not at all. 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:37.640 I mean there is. 0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:42.120 I mean the most recent example of raising fast food 0:51:42.160 --> 0:51:45.840 minimum wage and creating more fast food jobs is the 0:51:46.480 --> 0:51:49.880 example of the last couple of years. But when the 0:51:49.880 --> 0:51:53.520 restaurant associations we talk about in the book actually pulled 0:51:53.640 --> 0:51:57.640 its members, not its lobbyists in d C, they found 0:51:57.640 --> 0:52:01.880 that many of them actually wanted to increase those wages. 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:06.360 There's a Nobel Prize winning economist who studied what happened 0:52:06.680 --> 0:52:11.200 when New York raised its wages in hospitality and Pennsylvania didn't. 0:52:11.400 --> 0:52:13.600 And what found is what they found is that the 0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:17.120 New York businesses actually grew faster, which means those business 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:20.200 owners made more money even though the wages that they 0:52:20.200 --> 0:52:21.600 had to pay were higher. 0:52:21.640 --> 0:52:23.759 Well, do you think raising the minimum wage in one 0:52:23.840 --> 0:52:27.719 sector like restaurants does raise minimum wage across other sectories too? 0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:29.120 You don't think so. So you don't think like, if 0:52:29.160 --> 0:52:31.440 you're getting paid twenty dollars an hour to work at McDonald's, 0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:36.560 then the warehouse owner has to raise their wages to 0:52:36.719 --> 0:52:38.239 that or else their employees are going to go work 0:52:38.239 --> 0:52:38.920 at McDonald's. 0:52:38.960 --> 0:52:39.799 When is the burger going. 0:52:39.760 --> 0:52:40.120 To go up? 0:52:40.280 --> 0:52:41.200 I'm going to go up? 0:52:41.400 --> 0:52:45.279 I Well, the reality is the percentage of labor that 0:52:45.320 --> 0:52:47.920 goes into the Big Mac is actually pretty trivial. Probably 0:52:47.920 --> 0:52:50.560 to pay a living wage at McDonald's it would probably 0:52:50.560 --> 0:52:53.040 go by four to five cents per burger. So I 0:52:53.080 --> 0:52:55.160 think it's not it's deminimous. 0:52:55.239 --> 0:52:56.920 I'm playing a little bit Devil's advocate here. 0:52:57.160 --> 0:53:00.680 No, absolutely, But where I was going with is we're 0:53:00.680 --> 0:53:04.560 moving too slowly. It's time to actually change the laws, 0:53:05.000 --> 0:53:07.440 change the rules, and make sure that everybody at the 0:53:07.480 --> 0:53:10.560 bottom end of the pay scale is paid a living wage. 0:53:10.560 --> 0:53:13.759 And that's true for folks. We've got to eliminate the tip, 0:53:13.760 --> 0:53:18.520 minimum wage. I would eliminate the discount for disabled workers. 0:53:19.920 --> 0:53:22.920 We have to get to the point where all executives 0:53:22.920 --> 0:53:26.200 who believe in the dignity of work start paying wages 0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:29.080 that are equivalent to dignified pay. 0:53:29.239 --> 0:53:31.759 We have this terminal function on the Bloomberg terminal where 0:53:31.800 --> 0:53:34.440 we can look up executive compensation. So forgive me for 0:53:34.520 --> 0:53:37.239 being fresh, but you are part of a group that 0:53:37.400 --> 0:53:40.279 does argue that many people should be getting paid more 0:53:40.280 --> 0:53:42.560 and executives sometimes should be getting paid less than twenty 0:53:42.560 --> 0:53:46.000 twenty three, your total compensation was over eleven million dollars. 0:53:46.440 --> 0:53:48.239 Was that too much? Were you paid too much? 0:53:48.520 --> 0:53:52.160 I have been the beneficiary of a capitalist system that 0:53:52.560 --> 0:53:55.400 overpays the top and isn't paying enough at the bottom. 0:53:55.800 --> 0:54:01.720 But I am absolutely certain and I'm that we could, 0:54:01.880 --> 0:54:05.840 we could raise get to a living wage level and 0:54:05.880 --> 0:54:08.560 it would have it would make no big dent on 0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:10.120 the comp at the top. 0:54:10.560 --> 0:54:12.120 But let me also say that, as a. 0:54:12.040 --> 0:54:14.680 Patriotic millionaire, I am on the record as saying I 0:54:14.680 --> 0:54:18.000 think we should increase taxes on people like me and 0:54:18.239 --> 0:54:19.839 increase the state tax for. 0:54:19.840 --> 0:54:20.239 All of us. 0:54:20.560 --> 0:54:23.040 How high should they be? Because if you go back 0:54:23.040 --> 0:54:26.600 in history, I mean, the top marginal tax rate used 0:54:26.600 --> 0:54:29.120 to would shock you know, fifty sixty years ago, would 0:54:29.120 --> 0:54:31.879 shock people today. Yeah, I mean it was. 0:54:32.000 --> 0:54:33.160 It was insanely high. 0:54:33.200 --> 0:54:34.200 It was insanely high. 0:54:34.560 --> 0:54:40.400 Let's start by not approving, not extending the tax cuts 0:54:40.840 --> 0:54:46.000 that Trump put in place when he was in office. 0:54:46.280 --> 0:54:49.399 Let's start by getting to a level that we were 0:54:49.400 --> 0:54:53.279 paying during the Clinton administration, which was one of the 0:54:53.280 --> 0:54:56.080 greatest periods of prosperity, and we were actually paying down 0:54:56.640 --> 0:54:59.719 the debt. We have a one point seven trillion dollar 0:54:59.800 --> 0:55:02.759 debt sit this year. It is not going to be 0:55:02.800 --> 0:55:04.600 news to anyone who can do math that all of 0:55:04.640 --> 0:55:06.719 us are going to be paying taxes, and I think 0:55:06.840 --> 0:55:08.920 it should be very clear that people like me should 0:55:08.920 --> 0:55:10.680 be paying more taxes than most. 0:55:10.840 --> 0:55:12.520 Yeah, but we've been hearing this for a couple of years. 0:55:12.560 --> 0:55:14.040 I mean I remember being out at Milkin a few 0:55:14.120 --> 0:55:15.920 years ago and people saying, Yep, it's time for us 0:55:15.960 --> 0:55:18.160 to pay more taxes, really wealthy individuals, and yet here 0:55:18.160 --> 0:55:19.560 we are. One thing I want to ask you, because 0:55:19.560 --> 0:55:21.720 we're running out of time, is that if we believe 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:23.800 in a free market, I'm looking at your book about 0:55:23.920 --> 0:55:25.279 some of the myths that are out there that if 0:55:25.280 --> 0:55:27.320 we pay people a living wage. You know, some of 0:55:27.360 --> 0:55:29.520 the myths that you kind of address, And one is 0:55:29.560 --> 0:55:31.359 this isn't an issue for the government because the free 0:55:31.400 --> 0:55:33.840 market will naturally take care of it. We saw wages 0:55:33.880 --> 0:55:36.319 go up during the pandemic and out of it because 0:55:36.320 --> 0:55:39.000 there was a shortage of workers and so supplied demand. 0:55:39.040 --> 0:55:41.560 Free market it was at work. But I don't know 0:55:41.600 --> 0:55:44.440 that that will continue. Will the free market kind of 0:55:44.480 --> 0:55:45.400 help bring this about? 0:55:45.600 --> 0:55:47.680 Well, I think if you look at where wages are 0:55:47.760 --> 0:55:50.640 right now, even during the pandemic, while there was a 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:54.600 slight bump in wages at the bottom costs went up 0:55:55.200 --> 0:55:58.000 at twice the rate that wages went up, and so no, 0:55:58.120 --> 0:55:59.520 the free market has failed. 0:56:00.200 --> 0:56:03.080 And by the way, it worked when we. 0:56:03.080 --> 0:56:07.280 Actually had a minimum wage that was closer to reflecting 0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:10.920 a living wage, which drove the greatest period of economic 0:56:11.000 --> 0:56:13.799 success the world has ever seen between the forties and 0:56:13.840 --> 0:56:17.600 the eighties. We unhooked that the bottom third of the 0:56:17.640 --> 0:56:20.640 workforce at that point, and I think we've got a 0:56:20.640 --> 0:56:24.320 pretty angry, unhappy electorate and a lot of people living. 0:56:24.200 --> 0:56:25.960 In near poverty and that's just not fair. 0:56:26.120 --> 0:56:29.080 We just had a conversation with was it the CEO 0:56:29.160 --> 0:56:32.719 of Feeding in America, Yeah, and just talked about, you know, 0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:35.759 the people who just don't have enough food on their table. 0:56:36.120 --> 0:56:37.160 Food and security in this country. 0:56:37.239 --> 0:56:40.520 Insecurity just incredible, the percentages and. 0:56:41.000 --> 0:56:42.719 One out of three or four kids, one out of 0:56:42.719 --> 0:56:43.480 five households. 0:56:43.560 --> 0:56:44.759 That is unacceptable. 0:56:44.800 --> 0:56:47.400 And by the way, paying a living wage is not 0:56:47.480 --> 0:56:50.319 going to cost capitalism, it's actually going to improve our 0:56:50.360 --> 0:56:51.040 markets and business. 0:56:51.080 --> 0:56:53.040 In thirty seconds, Is a living wage the same in 0:56:53.080 --> 0:56:55.640 every state, in every city, It's got to be depending 0:56:55.640 --> 0:56:56.400 on the locale. 0:56:56.760 --> 0:57:00.120 No, I think that the FEDS should set a living 0:57:00.160 --> 0:57:03.399 wage at the national median okay, and then you can 0:57:03.480 --> 0:57:05.680 vary it up or down based on I mean vary 0:57:05.680 --> 0:57:08.799 it up rather based on what the true costs. The 0:57:08.800 --> 0:57:10.799 costs in LA and New York are very different than 0:57:10.800 --> 0:57:16.000 the cost in Jackson, Mississippi, or you know, or West Texas. 0:57:16.000 --> 0:57:17.120 You have to vary it. 0:57:17.440 --> 0:57:19.720 But the old minimum is so low right now as 0:57:19.720 --> 0:57:22.760 to be insulting to workers. I yeah, I. 0:57:22.680 --> 0:57:25.320 Feel like you're preaching to the choir. John Driscoll, come 0:57:25.400 --> 0:57:29.240 back soon. This was an important conversations. Of course, former 0:57:29.320 --> 0:57:31.919 CEF care centric his new book, Pay the People, Why 0:57:31.960 --> 0:57:36.480 fair pay is good for business and great for America. 0:57:36.640 --> 0:57:40.400 This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live each 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:43.400 weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play 0:57:43.520 --> 0:57:46.160 and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You 0:57:46.200 --> 0:57:49.400 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 0:57:49.440 --> 0:57:53.200 New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:57:54.480 --> 0:57:55.320 In one corner, we. 0:57:55.280 --> 0:57:57.880 Have the world richest man, electric car and rocket Titan 0:57:57.960 --> 0:58:01.360 and self proclaimed first buddy of Don Trump. In the 0:58:01.400 --> 0:58:05.560 other corner, Open AI's chief executive officer, whom Elon Musk 0:58:05.640 --> 0:58:08.800 has accused in a lawsuit of hijacking the venture in 0:58:08.880 --> 0:58:11.920 pursuit of profit. This feud, as you now know, is 0:58:11.960 --> 0:58:14.160 between Elon and Sam Altman. 0:58:14.600 --> 0:58:17.480 That's just one of the many feuds that Bloomberg BusinessWeek 0:58:17.480 --> 0:58:20.560 columnist Max Chafkin writes about in the yearhead issue of 0:58:20.560 --> 0:58:23.600 Bloomberg Business Week. Max is also co host of the 0:58:23.600 --> 0:58:26.280 Elon Inc. Podcast and the author of the book The 0:58:26.320 --> 0:58:30.320 Contrarian Peter Thiel and Silicon Valley's Pursuit of Power. Max 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:33.040 breaks down the characters for the top feuds in twenty 0:58:33.080 --> 0:58:35.760 twenty five with Carrol and Bloomberg's Emily GRIFFEO. 0:58:36.160 --> 0:58:39.520 Well, you know, business Week is forecasting all the trends 0:58:39.600 --> 0:58:42.840 we anticipate in twenty twenty five, you know, markets and 0:58:42.880 --> 0:58:45.640 so on that'll be up and what'll be down. But 0:58:45.720 --> 0:58:48.160 of course feuds, you know, who's going to be fighting 0:58:48.160 --> 0:58:50.480 with who is always a fun question. And I think 0:58:50.760 --> 0:58:55.040 you know, during a during the soon to be Trump presidency, 0:58:55.680 --> 0:58:57.720 we'll probably be seeing more of those, right. This is 0:58:58.200 --> 0:59:02.000 a president elect who who loves a good you know, 0:59:02.160 --> 0:59:05.120 public bruhaha. And we've got quite a few characters, you know, 0:59:05.280 --> 0:59:07.440 who are connected to the administration, who are in the 0:59:07.480 --> 0:59:08.840 middle of fights of their own. 0:59:09.640 --> 0:59:12.120 And it sounds like Elon pops into a couple of 0:59:12.160 --> 0:59:14.520 these feuds, which is no surprise since he kind of 0:59:14.760 --> 0:59:15.840 is popping up everywhere. 0:59:16.800 --> 0:59:19.560 Yeah, he's he feuds with a lot of folks. The 0:59:19.600 --> 0:59:22.920 one we picked on to focus on is Sam Altman, 0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:26.320 the CEO of open ai, which is, you know, the 0:59:26.760 --> 0:59:32.280 basically the market leading artificial intelligence chat pop platform. Elon 0:59:32.400 --> 0:59:36.959 Musk has been beefing with Sam Altman for years, dating 0:59:36.960 --> 0:59:38.800 all the way back to the founding this company. To 0:59:39.240 --> 0:59:41.880 give you the sort of quick version of it, basically, 0:59:42.000 --> 0:59:44.160 it was started as a nonprofit and has kind of 0:59:44.520 --> 0:59:47.520 morphed into something else. Elon Musk is not. 0:59:47.600 --> 0:59:48.440 Happy about that. 0:59:48.840 --> 0:59:51.440 Partly, he says, you know, just because of the principle, 0:59:51.800 --> 0:59:54.280 but also, oh, by the way, he happens to own 0:59:54.440 --> 0:59:57.080 a significant competitor to open ai. So there's a there's 0:59:57.080 --> 1:00:00.120 sort of a business dispute and an ethical dispute, and 1:00:00.160 --> 1:00:04.320 of course a potential regulatory dispute because the Trump administration, 1:00:04.360 --> 1:00:07.760 the next Trump administration will be seeking to change the 1:00:07.800 --> 1:00:10.960 AI regulatory framework and Elon Musk could have a voice there. 1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:13.320 You didn't you let that the good part what Elon 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:14.680 has called Sam. 1:00:15.240 --> 1:00:19.880 Right, Yes, Elon has adopted the Trump thing of giving 1:00:19.920 --> 1:00:23.880 everyone nickname, so he called Sam Altman Swindley Sam. So, 1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:28.720 you know, given how much Elon Musk tweets, and also 1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:32.240 the kind of merging between Elon Musk and Trump, I 1:00:32.240 --> 1:00:33.800 think that would be another thing to look out for 1:00:33.880 --> 1:00:36.840 other nicknames, other people who might earn an epithet. 1:00:37.280 --> 1:00:38.920 Okay, So I want to get to the other feuds. 1:00:38.960 --> 1:00:42.560 But weren't they weren't Sam Altman and Elon Musk didn't 1:00:42.600 --> 1:00:45.080 they initially work together like they were first going to 1:00:45.120 --> 1:00:47.720 be business partners, and now this has fallen into such 1:00:47.720 --> 1:00:48.160 a feud. 1:00:49.040 --> 1:00:52.080 They were co founders of Open AI, right, and you 1:00:52.120 --> 1:00:54.360 know that is the that's kind of the source of 1:00:54.360 --> 1:00:57.120 this because Elon Musk gave a bunch of money to 1:00:57.200 --> 1:01:00.480 start this thing up. I think at the time he 1:01:00.680 --> 1:01:05.680 saw it as a philanthropic donation. And over the years 1:01:05.800 --> 1:01:09.280 it's become clear that Open AI, whatever it's philanthropic mission, 1:01:09.280 --> 1:01:11.000 you know, which has to do with, you know, keeping 1:01:11.000 --> 1:01:13.720 the world safe from AI apocalypse, is going to be 1:01:13.800 --> 1:01:17.360 a potential threat to some of Elon Musk's companies. Tesla, 1:01:17.440 --> 1:01:21.480 of course, is embarking on this pivot to AI. Musk 1:01:21.520 --> 1:01:25.280 has also launched this competing AI chatbot through Xai, which 1:01:25.320 --> 1:01:28.560 is kind of vaguely related to his two x which 1:01:28.640 --> 1:01:31.400 you know, formerly known as Twitter. So they've basically gone 1:01:31.440 --> 1:01:34.680 from being partners yet to being frenemies. 1:01:34.680 --> 1:01:37.280 Maybe maybe he's just cranky because we're going to start, 1:01:37.360 --> 1:01:39.960 you know, not talking about tweets anymore, but talking about skeets. 1:01:39.960 --> 1:01:41.800 And this gets to another few that you guys write 1:01:41.800 --> 1:01:43.200 about that you include in your list. 1:01:44.040 --> 1:01:45.280 You know, this is interesting. 1:01:45.280 --> 1:01:48.760 Blue Sky, which is one of the competitors to Twitter. 1:01:48.800 --> 1:01:51.760 Over the last couple of years, we've seen a bunch 1:01:51.800 --> 1:01:54.320 of these come and go. Remember there's a Facebook the 1:01:54.320 --> 1:01:58.200 Facebook version Threads, there was something called Mastodon. They're also 1:01:58.240 --> 1:02:03.000 the conservative or alternatives Parlor, and of course the president 1:02:03.000 --> 1:02:06.240 of lex own company Truth Social. Blue Sky is really 1:02:06.280 --> 1:02:09.960 the first one to take off in a big way. 1:02:10.000 --> 1:02:13.200 That feels organic. Threads had a lot of users, but 1:02:13.280 --> 1:02:16.919 they were all kind of coming from Instagram essentially, users 1:02:16.960 --> 1:02:19.920 reasons sort of put there, whether they liked it or not. 1:02:20.280 --> 1:02:22.560 What we've seen with Blue Sky over the past few 1:02:22.600 --> 1:02:26.280 months as the service has gotten sort of more fully 1:02:26.320 --> 1:02:30.040 featured and as users perhaps they're because they're turned off 1:02:30.720 --> 1:02:34.840 by the owner of ex Elon Musk support of president 1:02:34.920 --> 1:02:38.960 like Donald Trump, or perhaps it's just because under Elon Musk, 1:02:39.200 --> 1:02:43.400 X has changed. We're seeing huge explosions of growth, especially 1:02:43.400 --> 1:02:46.640 in some of those cohorts of user that had really 1:02:46.760 --> 1:02:50.440 made Twitter now X vibrant. So talking about sort of 1:02:50.680 --> 1:02:55.480 media figures, celebrities, even some politicians, even some sports. 1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:58.280 Folks, it's it's really it feels real. 1:02:58.320 --> 1:03:01.000 I mean, it's much smaller than the other social networks 1:03:01.000 --> 1:03:02.800 at the moment, but it does feel like, you know, 1:03:02.920 --> 1:03:05.760 it is a potential thread. And of course on Twitter 1:03:05.800 --> 1:03:07.840 you've got tweets. Even though it's called X, we still 1:03:07.840 --> 1:03:10.120 call them tweets for some reason, and on Blue Sky 1:03:10.240 --> 1:03:11.360 they are called whether you like. 1:03:11.320 --> 1:03:12.280 It or not skeets. 1:03:12.520 --> 1:03:15.440 I want to do kind of a Twitter or X 1:03:16.640 --> 1:03:20.760 poll because just in our informal control room, I'm getting 1:03:20.800 --> 1:03:23.720 all these things in our ib chat skeets. Skeets really 1:03:23.800 --> 1:03:26.080 kind of sounds a little whiskey. 1:03:27.120 --> 1:03:29.960 I don't make the I don't make terms. I just 1:03:30.320 --> 1:03:31.400 I just report on them. 1:03:31.520 --> 1:03:33.240 But so does X. I mean I have to say, 1:03:33.280 --> 1:03:36.800 I still type in Twitter dot com, I do it 1:03:36.800 --> 1:03:39.480 into my browser and then it like populates to X. 1:03:39.520 --> 1:03:41.200 But I'm not typing in X dot com. 1:03:41.960 --> 1:03:44.320 But I'm slowly using X more than I'm using Twitter, 1:03:44.520 --> 1:03:46.080 Like I find myself Scott. 1:03:45.920 --> 1:03:46.480 More than Twitter. 1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:49.160 No, I mean saying xy yes, No, but I feel 1:03:49.160 --> 1:03:51.040 like I'm getting solicited a lot about Blue Scott. 1:03:51.160 --> 1:03:54.600 Even even Elon Musk sometimes still calls it Twitter. We've 1:03:54.680 --> 1:03:57.720 joked on the Eline podcast that we should call tweets 1:03:57.800 --> 1:03:59.880 exes instead of tweets, but it has. 1:04:00.120 --> 1:04:01.320 Yet to take off. 1:04:01.760 --> 1:04:05.320 Okay, So, staying with kind of the tech realm, you 1:04:05.360 --> 1:04:09.600 also write about a fight against the DOJ and its 1:04:09.640 --> 1:04:14.160 anti trust head or new head, Gail Slater, versus Google 1:04:14.320 --> 1:04:15.240 and Google Chrome. 1:04:16.160 --> 1:04:19.080 Yeah, so this is in certain ways a continuation of 1:04:19.120 --> 1:04:21.800 a feud that was kind of heating up during the 1:04:21.800 --> 1:04:26.680 Biden administration. You've You've had the Department of Justice, you know, 1:04:26.760 --> 1:04:29.480 take on a bunch of big tech companies, including Google 1:04:29.720 --> 1:04:33.400 and Apple, uh trying right now or asking a court 1:04:33.520 --> 1:04:36.640 to potentially even break up Google. When when he announced 1:04:36.680 --> 1:04:40.680 his new head of the Department of Justices Anti Trust division, 1:04:40.760 --> 1:04:45.040 Gail Slater, Trump you know took adopted a pretty uh, 1:04:45.080 --> 1:04:48.560 standoffish tone, talked about sort of big tech having run wild, 1:04:48.920 --> 1:04:51.680 you know, basically leaving little doubt that this is not 1:04:51.760 --> 1:04:54.520 going to go away. The DOJ and the DOJ's Anti 1:04:54.520 --> 1:04:59.320 Trust Division under the sort of Trump leadership is probably 1:04:59.440 --> 1:05:03.080 not going to just completely back off these tech companies. Now, 1:05:03.120 --> 1:05:05.720 we'll see what happens with the FTC. Trumps has nominated 1:05:05.760 --> 1:05:09.640 someone there and they're two. There is a suggestion that 1:05:09.720 --> 1:05:13.720 at least in tech, the Trump administration doesn't want to 1:05:13.800 --> 1:05:16.280 sort of go easy, doesn't want to adopt a pose 1:05:16.320 --> 1:05:19.880 that's like completely friendly to industry. So this fight we've 1:05:19.880 --> 1:05:22.280 seen we're in for years, looks looks safe to continue. 1:05:22.360 --> 1:05:24.800 I feel like we're covering the really important ones, and 1:05:24.800 --> 1:05:27.479 that has to do with dog Man and Paddington Bear, 1:05:27.560 --> 1:05:30.240 and also Kendrick Lamar and Drake. 1:05:30.920 --> 1:05:31.120 Yeah. 1:05:31.200 --> 1:05:34.200 I mean, I think the dog Man Paddington dispute is 1:05:34.200 --> 1:05:36.080 the one that all everyone on Wall Street will be 1:05:36.080 --> 1:05:38.440 watching come January and February. 1:05:38.440 --> 1:05:41.160 Get the live blog ready, Get the live blog ready. 1:05:41.360 --> 1:05:42.520 When the movies come out. 1:05:42.560 --> 1:05:45.440 I mean, you know again, these are two children's movies, 1:05:45.680 --> 1:05:48.200 you know, one a continuation of the Paddington franchise. One 1:05:48.240 --> 1:05:52.920 the beginning the first dog Man film, and you couldn't 1:05:52.960 --> 1:05:57.360 have two more different superheroes. One is very well spoken 1:05:57.400 --> 1:06:00.800 and well dressed. The other is nonverbal and have a toilet. 1:06:00.880 --> 1:06:03.280 So my children are excited about it. And of course 1:06:03.560 --> 1:06:05.640 you know there is a potential business story here. Both 1:06:05.680 --> 1:06:09.120 of these could be pretty big movies. And so not 1:06:09.480 --> 1:06:11.800 a direct feud, but a feud for mind. 1:06:11.560 --> 1:06:15.120 Share, okay, and then kenchall Lamar and Drake. I thought 1:06:15.120 --> 1:06:19.200 that feud was a twenty twenty four what's happening next year? 1:06:20.040 --> 1:06:22.920 So the feud in twenty twenty four was sort of 1:06:22.960 --> 1:06:26.200 playing out on Spotify and on YouTube, and it was 1:06:26.280 --> 1:06:28.600 kind of an artistic feud, a rap battle or a 1:06:28.600 --> 1:06:29.680 series of rap battles. 1:06:30.160 --> 1:06:31.360 What we have now is a. 1:06:31.320 --> 1:06:34.680 Potential for a courtroom feud, which is maybe not as 1:06:34.680 --> 1:06:39.000 fun as the as a rap version, but Drake filing 1:06:39.280 --> 1:06:43.360 in a court basically announcing his intention to go after 1:06:43.440 --> 1:06:47.480 both Spotify and UMG, the record label. And the idea 1:06:47.600 --> 1:06:53.440 here is that UMG was improperly promoting Hendrick's side of 1:06:53.480 --> 1:06:58.800 the feud. It's a potential racketeering thing. I don't know 1:06:58.840 --> 1:07:02.280 how realistic this is from a legal perspective and how 1:07:02.480 --> 1:07:04.520 how likely courts are are going to be to go 1:07:04.560 --> 1:07:07.880 along with this, but just to say that this dispute 1:07:08.480 --> 1:07:09.800 is not going anywhere, all right. 1:07:09.840 --> 1:07:11.520 It is the FED meeting this week, we get our 1:07:11.560 --> 1:07:13.919 last FED decision of twenty twenty four, so we kind 1:07:13.920 --> 1:07:17.520 of saved the very timely few that could happen in 1:07:17.520 --> 1:07:19.360 twenty twenty five. And that of course is between the 1:07:19.360 --> 1:07:24.200 President elect and j Powell. Fed share that's on your list. 1:07:24.760 --> 1:07:28.520 Yeah, just kind of a long simmering feud that we 1:07:28.560 --> 1:07:30.840 saw play out during the last Trump presidency. You know, 1:07:30.880 --> 1:07:34.720 Trump campaigned on having really low interest rates. You wouldn't 1:07:34.720 --> 1:07:36.360 believe how low these interest rates are going to be. 1:07:36.640 --> 1:07:40.760 And Powell meanwhile has basically been signaling that whatever interest 1:07:40.840 --> 1:07:42.760 rate cuts are going to happen, you know, the FED 1:07:42.800 --> 1:07:45.600 still thinks there's inflation, you know, and it seems almost 1:07:45.640 --> 1:07:50.040 inevitable that there's going to be at least continued tension 1:07:50.440 --> 1:07:52.240 if not something hotter. 1:07:52.440 --> 1:07:54.080 Can I just ask you, did you leave a lot 1:07:54.080 --> 1:07:56.760 on the cutting table? Like were there feuds where people like. 1:07:56.680 --> 1:07:58.920 You're watching many other feuds And I'll just throw a 1:07:58.920 --> 1:08:03.200 few others out. You've got Zin the tobacco pouch versus 1:08:03.200 --> 1:08:05.560 ALP Tucker Carlson's anti wol pouches. 1:08:05.720 --> 1:08:06.439 You've got of. 1:08:06.360 --> 1:08:11.880 Course, sports betting against sports washing, watching crocs against Birkenstocks, 1:08:12.720 --> 1:08:16.080 Love Is Blind cast members against Love's blond producers. I 1:08:16.080 --> 1:08:18.800 could keep going, but as I said, it's going to 1:08:18.880 --> 1:08:21.840 be a feud filled twenty five. 1:08:22.560 --> 1:08:25.400 Hey listen before you go. Yeah, I can feel it 1:08:25.439 --> 1:08:28.599 already in the air. Having said that, before we go, 1:08:29.040 --> 1:08:32.639 The current Elon Inc. Podcast is out, and we mentioned 1:08:32.640 --> 1:08:35.880 it in the introduction. Mister Musco's to Washington and to 1:08:35.960 --> 1:08:38.280 Paris and to mar A Lago. It's so funny. Was 1:08:38.280 --> 1:08:39.920 it a football game over the weekend and there was 1:08:39.960 --> 1:08:45.000 a picture of Elon and his pick for Defense Secretary 1:08:45.040 --> 1:08:46.599 and then there was I think Elon and it almost 1:08:46.600 --> 1:08:48.320 looked like his head was pasted in. It almost didn't 1:08:48.320 --> 1:08:49.840 look real, But I believe he was there. 1:08:50.840 --> 1:08:52.080 Yeah, Yeah, he was there. 1:08:52.120 --> 1:08:55.200 And he has been basically going most of the places 1:08:55.200 --> 1:08:55.960 that Trump goes. 1:08:56.000 --> 1:08:58.320 And you know, for a month or two we've. 1:08:58.200 --> 1:09:01.280 Been sort of speculating on and you know, Kenny's two 1:09:01.280 --> 1:09:04.760 guys with these huge egos, Uh, you hang out with 1:09:04.800 --> 1:09:06.920 each other, can they stand being not the not the 1:09:06.920 --> 1:09:09.439 biggest fish in the room? And and it seems like 1:09:09.479 --> 1:09:12.320 the answer is yes. You know, Elon Musk so far 1:09:12.400 --> 1:09:15.760 anyway has has been able to hang with Trump and 1:09:16.000 --> 1:09:20.280 and play second fiddle, and Trump has been able, uh 1:09:20.320 --> 1:09:22.400 to put up with you know what amounts to a 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:25.160 like a new house guest or a new a new 1:09:25.160 --> 1:09:28.080 guest who's just sort of always hanging around and who's 1:09:28.120 --> 1:09:32.360 offering support, cheerleading and I suppose uh some policy ideas. 1:09:32.520 --> 1:09:35.400 All right, interesting stuff, great lit list, made for a 1:09:35.400 --> 1:09:38.640 fun read and a fun discussion. Max, so appreciate it. 1:09:38.680 --> 1:09:41.560 Max Chafkin, columnist at Bloomberg Business, Beeak co host and 1:09:41.600 --> 1:09:42.200 the Elon Inc. 1:09:42.280 --> 1:09:42.719 Podcast. 1:09:42.800 --> 1:09:45.679 Catch it wherever you find your podcast. You can also 1:09:45.680 --> 1:09:49.280 find it uh at Bloomberg dot com, and as we mentioned, 1:09:49.280 --> 1:09:51.280 Max is the author of the contrarian Peter Teel and 1:09:51.320 --> 1:09:53.040 Silicon Valley's Pursuit of Power. 1:09:58.600 --> 1:10:02.080 This is the Bloomberg Bus Business Week podcast. Listen live 1:10:02.200 --> 1:10:05.800 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Applecarplay and 1:10:05.680 --> 1:10:08.320 the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can 1:10:08.360 --> 1:10:11.519 also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 1:10:11.600 --> 1:10:15.200 York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 1:10:16.240 --> 1:10:19.160 We wrap up our year ahead look with something that 1:10:19.200 --> 1:10:23.519 garnered a lot of attention last year, Travel and tourism interested. 1:10:23.560 --> 1:10:26.280 Globe trotting is at an all time high, but so 1:10:26.520 --> 1:10:30.160 is over tourism. There have been local protests in Barcelona, 1:10:30.360 --> 1:10:34.000 Venice and Majorca, Spain, while Sicily is facing a tourism 1:10:34.040 --> 1:10:37.360 induced water crisis. It's not only where one can go, 1:10:37.479 --> 1:10:39.479 but really where one should go. 1:10:39.880 --> 1:10:42.080 We'll get into where you should go in just a bit, 1:10:42.160 --> 1:10:45.080 but first, before booking any trip, the first thing worth 1:10:45.120 --> 1:10:47.320 looking at, I think for a lot of people is 1:10:47.360 --> 1:10:49.519 how much is it going to cost? Kayak is one 1:10:49.520 --> 1:10:52.439 company that has all that data at its fingertips. For more, 1:10:52.479 --> 1:10:55.120 we were joined by the CEO of Kayak, Steve Hafner. 1:10:55.439 --> 1:10:59.120 For twenty twenty five. Search interest on Kayak is about 1:10:59.120 --> 1:11:02.639 equal to twenty two twenty four, which is a relieving 1:11:02.680 --> 1:11:04.639 thing for everyone in the history because twenty twenty four 1:11:04.720 --> 1:11:07.120 was a really great year in the travel business, and 1:11:07.160 --> 1:11:09.320 going into the back half of this year, a lot 1:11:09.320 --> 1:11:11.519 of people were nervous about what twenty twenty five would 1:11:11.520 --> 1:11:11.880 look like. 1:11:12.360 --> 1:11:13.160 But so far, our. 1:11:13.040 --> 1:11:16.760 Travel demand is held firm. Airfares are down a little bit, 1:11:16.800 --> 1:11:18.800 so price is a little bit down and that's helping 1:11:18.800 --> 1:11:21.880 to prop up demand. But the overall headline is it's 1:11:21.920 --> 1:11:25.120 good news. Two other friends underneath that. The first is 1:11:25.240 --> 1:11:28.160 just business class or premium seats are up nineteen percent 1:11:28.200 --> 1:11:30.439 year every year, which tells you that consumers are willing 1:11:30.479 --> 1:11:32.760 to pay up. And then in terms of where people 1:11:32.760 --> 1:11:35.439 are going, Asia is on sale and it's on fire. 1:11:36.000 --> 1:11:38.360 You know, three of the top ten destinations on Kayak 1:11:38.439 --> 1:11:39.519 right now are in Asia. 1:11:40.080 --> 1:11:42.800 Where specifically is Japan still pretty hot? 1:11:43.240 --> 1:11:48.160 It's Japan, So Carol, you got it. Japan is on sale. 1:11:48.320 --> 1:11:50.280 So if you look at exchange rates, I'm kind of 1:11:50.320 --> 1:11:52.760 an exchange rate junkie. There's one hundred and fifty four 1:11:52.840 --> 1:11:54.720 y in too the US dollar right now two years 1:11:54.760 --> 1:11:58.080 ago one hundred and five, So basically everything's thirty five 1:11:58.120 --> 1:12:01.559 percent off, including air. So you know, if you look 1:12:01.560 --> 1:12:05.360 at travel and ted Soporo is up thirty one percent 1:12:05.439 --> 1:12:09.120 on Kayak. In terms of query volume, Osaka twelve percent. 1:12:09.960 --> 1:12:12.880 And it's not just the exchange rate, it's social media. 1:12:12.960 --> 1:12:15.759 So if you're on TikTok or Instagram, which I admittedly 1:12:15.800 --> 1:12:19.680 am not, you cannot escape seeing a great video of 1:12:19.720 --> 1:12:22.240 someone enjoying themselves in Japan, and that's driving a lot 1:12:22.240 --> 1:12:23.679 of consumer interest to go there. 1:12:24.000 --> 1:12:27.160 Hey, I am curious how deep you dig steve into 1:12:27.360 --> 1:12:31.439 your demographic data because you mentioned that really strong in 1:12:31.520 --> 1:12:35.479 terms of travel trends, and you say business class tickets, 1:12:35.479 --> 1:12:39.120 premium class tickets that people are paying up for. Is 1:12:39.120 --> 1:12:41.040 it because they're getting a deal or because they're paying 1:12:41.160 --> 1:12:42.639 up for it? So I'm just trying to get an idea, 1:12:42.680 --> 1:12:45.679 is that they're really wealthy that are traveling and it's 1:12:45.720 --> 1:12:46.799 not across the board. 1:12:47.040 --> 1:12:49.320 No, I think people are just splurging more on experiences. 1:12:49.800 --> 1:12:52.479 We do see a little bit of a difference between 1:12:52.600 --> 1:12:55.559 millennials and Gen Z versus older generations in terms of 1:12:55.600 --> 1:12:58.599 how they travel. So millennials and Gen Z they're much 1:12:58.640 --> 1:13:01.640 more likely to have flexibility in their travel planning, and 1:13:01.680 --> 1:13:04.360 they're willing to use tools like Kayak Explore, which less 1:13:04.400 --> 1:13:07.280 you set a budget and find travel dates and save 1:13:07.360 --> 1:13:09.680 money on airfare that way and reinvest that into the 1:13:09.720 --> 1:13:14.879 actual in market experience, whereas older generations like me families, 1:13:14.920 --> 1:13:17.360 we have fixed travel dates. We want to make sure 1:13:17.400 --> 1:13:21.880 that flying experience is perfect, so that means, hey, we 1:13:21.920 --> 1:13:24.000 want to know where we're siding, we want to board first, 1:13:24.320 --> 1:13:27.200 we want extra leg room, we want a good at 1:13:27.240 --> 1:13:31.280 airport experience. You know, that's kind of where that growth 1:13:31.320 --> 1:13:32.879 is coming from on the premium side. 1:13:33.040 --> 1:13:36.599 What about the older generations and it's just how they 1:13:36.760 --> 1:13:41.000 use technology to plan their vacations. What are the biggest 1:13:41.040 --> 1:13:42.559 changes that you're seeing in that, Well. 1:13:42.479 --> 1:13:46.720 I think the older technology, So the older generations buy 1:13:46.760 --> 1:13:49.439 and large if they're affluent, are still using travel agents. 1:13:49.479 --> 1:13:52.120 You know, there's still over twenty thousand travel agents who 1:13:52.560 --> 1:13:55.840 do bespoke travel planning for those people. Everyone else has 1:13:55.880 --> 1:13:59.320 already migrated online, and not just online, but they're starting 1:13:59.360 --> 1:14:02.160 to migrate tour is these AI assistants, which is what 1:14:02.240 --> 1:14:05.160 everyone in the travel industry now is kind of holding 1:14:05.200 --> 1:14:07.880 their breath to see how that changes, because up until 1:14:07.920 --> 1:14:10.000 now you've had to download an app or go to 1:14:10.040 --> 1:14:13.439 a website like kayak and do a search yourself. Now, 1:14:13.800 --> 1:14:17.120 to be able to speak to intelligent AI agent and 1:14:17.200 --> 1:14:21.200 have them do all the work for you, it's pretty awesome, So, 1:14:21.560 --> 1:14:23.200 you know, and I think we're a lot closer to 1:14:23.240 --> 1:14:26.120 that than than you know, a lot of people believe there. 1:14:26.000 --> 1:14:29.360 Was a period I feel like where sustainability and thinking 1:14:29.360 --> 1:14:33.920 about trips and their impact on the environment was appealing 1:14:34.120 --> 1:14:37.200 eco tourism. Are you continue to see people book those 1:14:37.280 --> 1:14:37.960 kinds of trips. 1:14:38.640 --> 1:14:41.080 You know, there's a lot more people who say they're 1:14:41.520 --> 1:14:43.960 impacted by that than what we actually observe on the 1:14:44.080 --> 1:14:46.320 on the website and on the app, you know. So 1:14:46.479 --> 1:14:50.120 we do show people what's an eco friendly flight for example, 1:14:50.240 --> 1:14:53.800 that you know, it's point of a newer airplane, but 1:14:53.920 --> 1:14:55.920 people don't seem to be willing to pay more. 1:14:55.760 --> 1:14:56.519 For those flights. 1:14:56.800 --> 1:15:00.120 So they're still mainly driven by the price point of 1:15:00.120 --> 1:15:03.400 the air airfare or the experience. But I think there 1:15:03.439 --> 1:15:06.599 is a demographic that that's very important to them, pically 1:15:06.640 --> 1:15:10.240 on hotels. So we do have sustainability badges on hotels 1:15:10.240 --> 1:15:12.880 do we think do a good job right limiting their 1:15:12.920 --> 1:15:15.680 footprint and people do seem, you know, where they're going 1:15:15.680 --> 1:15:18.400 to stay, someplace to change their booking behavior to one 1:15:18.439 --> 1:15:19.440 that's more sustainable. 1:15:19.720 --> 1:15:22.519 Hey, Steve, before we go, Emily kind of nailed it. 1:15:22.760 --> 1:15:24.000 You're in a boat, aren't you. 1:15:25.800 --> 1:15:28.439 Well, I'm on my floating office here in Miami yet. 1:15:28.680 --> 1:15:30.920 Okay, we're just having some fun with you. That would 1:15:30.920 --> 1:15:35.720 be my ideal office from a boating and that view. Yeah, exactly, Steve. V. Well, 1:15:35.760 --> 1:15:38.840 Happy New Year and happy holiday. CEO of Kayak, Steve 1:15:38.880 --> 1:15:42.439 Hafner joining us there from Miami. Yeah, I think it's 1:15:42.439 --> 1:15:45.439 interesting you hear and still continue to see a lot 1:15:45.439 --> 1:15:47.280 of people traveling post pandemic. 1:15:47.360 --> 1:15:50.800 That Japan is incredible. I have multiple friends that are 1:15:51.160 --> 1:15:52.920 going or have gone in the last year. 1:15:52.840 --> 1:15:54.639 And you're like, yeah, I know about that exchange rate stuff. 1:15:54.720 --> 1:15:56.280 Yeah, it's just a little bit. 1:15:58.080 --> 1:16:01.840 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Listen live each 1:16:01.880 --> 1:16:05.200 weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Applecarplay and the 1:16:05.240 --> 1:16:08.080 Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also 1:16:08.240 --> 1:16:11.280 listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York 1:16:11.280 --> 1:16:14.679 station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 1:16:16.080 --> 1:16:18.559 Okay, so we just learned that Kayaks applied our pursuits 1:16:18.600 --> 1:16:21.040 team some two and a half billion custom polled data 1:16:21.080 --> 1:16:24.000 points to help create an immersive feature to calculate the 1:16:24.000 --> 1:16:26.720 costs for flights and hotels on the twenty five best 1:16:26.720 --> 1:16:29.040 places to check out this year. It's all in the 1:16:29.080 --> 1:16:31.479 Year Ahead issue of Bloomberg BusinessWeek magazine, which you can 1:16:31.560 --> 1:16:34.080 check out on the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg dot com. 1:16:34.120 --> 1:16:37.200 It's a record setting nineteen pages in the magazine with 1:16:37.280 --> 1:16:41.000 a beautiful immersive feature on Algeria. Two new hotspots to 1:16:41.040 --> 1:16:45.080 prioritize in Spain, an unlikely story about a billionaire creating 1:16:45.120 --> 1:16:48.880 a new system for conservation, and some decadent hotels on 1:16:48.960 --> 1:16:52.760 the island of Principe. Ideas for your next great coolcasion 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:55.799 and the next great museums to travel for cat. 1:16:55.600 --> 1:16:57.840 Me and let's go now, all right. Nikki Eckstein is 1:16:57.880 --> 1:17:00.679 the travels are for Bloomberg Pursuits, and she first breaks 1:17:00.720 --> 1:17:02.719 down the partnership with Kayak. 1:17:02.920 --> 1:17:05.280 This is a multi year effort. I kid you not. 1:17:05.520 --> 1:17:09.320 I've been trying to make this happen for forever, and 1:17:09.439 --> 1:17:12.120 finally this year I convinced Kayak to give us their 1:17:12.160 --> 1:17:15.640 greatest minds in their data science department, who turned no 1:17:15.760 --> 1:17:18.200 fewer than two point five billion data points. 1:17:18.200 --> 1:17:18.879 That's amazing. 1:17:18.960 --> 1:17:21.960 All of them are pricing insights on both hotels and 1:17:22.120 --> 1:17:25.040 flights that allow you to go to our digital interactive, 1:17:25.120 --> 1:17:27.439 choose your nearest airport and figure out what it will 1:17:27.439 --> 1:17:30.080 cost you to visit all twenty five of these places 1:17:30.160 --> 1:17:33.040 every month of the year from your hometown. 1:17:33.240 --> 1:17:35.840 Okay, my flight prices are set for New York City. 1:17:35.840 --> 1:17:39.200 So you should be able to see both accurate month 1:17:39.240 --> 1:17:40.840 by month estimates on what it will take to fly 1:17:40.920 --> 1:17:43.639 to any one of our twenty five destinations, including suggested 1:17:43.720 --> 1:17:46.720 layovers in places where that's required, as well as month 1:17:46.720 --> 1:17:49.960 by month hotel pricing estimates for luxury hotels, because we 1:17:50.000 --> 1:17:50.920 know that's how we roll. 1:17:51.080 --> 1:17:52.439 Oh my god, this is so cool. 1:17:52.520 --> 1:17:53.600 Thank you guys. 1:17:54.160 --> 1:17:55.760 All right, so we can play around with this, we 1:17:55.800 --> 1:17:57.720 can figure out what it's going to cost us. Tell 1:17:57.800 --> 1:17:59.720 us about the list this year. Because you are looking 1:17:59.720 --> 1:18:01.640 at all the time. You usually come up with like 1:18:01.720 --> 1:18:03.640 kind of an annual review right like you do this. 1:18:03.840 --> 1:18:09.080 We are cracking hotel openings, restaurant openings, museum openings, cultural events, 1:18:09.120 --> 1:18:12.200 infrastructure investments, I mean, you name it. We're tracking it 1:18:12.360 --> 1:18:16.160 year round. And whatever is most inspiring, whatever is most significant, 1:18:16.160 --> 1:18:18.720 most game changing, is what rises to the top this 1:18:18.800 --> 1:18:22.160 year's twenty five places, and it's almost every. 1:18:21.960 --> 1:18:24.360 Continent, not Onntarctica. 1:18:24.479 --> 1:18:26.960 But we are really well spread geographically around the world 1:18:26.960 --> 1:18:28.959 with lots of inspiration no matter where you're from. 1:18:28.800 --> 1:18:31.839 Where is a place that you can go on a budget. 1:18:32.000 --> 1:18:35.000 We're talking Bloomberg pursuits here, so we're not always watching. 1:18:34.640 --> 1:18:36.920 The wall at How adventurous are you dad? 1:18:38.040 --> 1:18:38.920 As well? 1:18:38.960 --> 1:18:40.880 I've got two ideas for you, right hear. 1:18:41.040 --> 1:18:44.320 The Colombian Amazon is a place where your money can 1:18:44.400 --> 1:18:45.160 go very. 1:18:45.000 --> 1:18:46.760 Far because there's not a lot out there. 1:18:46.760 --> 1:18:49.759 But there is a small company called Nomad that's starting 1:18:49.760 --> 1:18:53.400 to create these community owned, revenue shared model lodges. 1:18:53.760 --> 1:18:54.959 The first of ten. 1:18:55.000 --> 1:19:00.840 Is just opening now, and it's these beautiful treehouse style bungalows, 1:19:00.960 --> 1:19:04.920 really modern construction, super lux but at the same time 1:19:05.040 --> 1:19:08.040 bare bones and immersed in nature. If all of those 1:19:08.040 --> 1:19:09.880 things can possibly be true at the same time, I 1:19:09.920 --> 1:19:10.800 promise you they are. 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:13.280 And you go, you know, kayaking. 1:19:12.720 --> 1:19:15.400 Down tributaries of the Amazon to look for pink dolphins 1:19:15.439 --> 1:19:17.200 and you can hang in a hammock to sleep it 1:19:17.200 --> 1:19:19.920 all off when you're too tired, and it just seems 1:19:19.920 --> 1:19:20.360 so dreamy. 1:19:20.439 --> 1:19:22.439 But the prices are very reasonable. It's like less than 1:19:22.479 --> 1:19:23.360 three hundred dollars a night. 1:19:23.479 --> 1:19:26.799 Yeah, I'm looking the best time to go May in June, November, 1:19:26.800 --> 1:19:29.120 and December. December is of course going to be pricey, 1:19:29.120 --> 1:19:31.240 but yeah, three hundred bucks for a hotel per night, 1:19:32.040 --> 1:19:34.559 and the flight price is cheap two three hundred ninety 1:19:34.600 --> 1:19:35.320 dollars to get there. 1:19:35.760 --> 1:19:36.920 I mean, there you have it. 1:19:37.120 --> 1:19:39.479 That's your budget, your budget idea, right then, and there, 1:19:39.520 --> 1:19:40.840 and then if you want to go a little bit 1:19:40.840 --> 1:19:43.960 farther away, may I propose the island of Princypay, which 1:19:44.000 --> 1:19:47.400 we mentioned up top. Where it's people talk about it 1:19:47.520 --> 1:19:49.680 like Africa's Galapagos, okay, but. 1:19:50.040 --> 1:19:52.000 Most people don't even know where it is. Right. 1:19:52.080 --> 1:19:55.880 It's off the western coast of Africa, equatorial so you know, 1:19:55.880 --> 1:19:58.599 a little bit farther north than your average safari, warm weather, 1:19:58.680 --> 1:20:01.440 temperate year round, a lot of marine activity. 1:20:01.120 --> 1:20:04.400 So like tropical fish apparently, fish that. 1:20:04.400 --> 1:20:08.360 Walk on land, what like relics of the dinosaur era. 1:20:08.520 --> 1:20:11.400 It's this place is absolutely wild to the landscapes. 1:20:11.439 --> 1:20:12.280 You would not believe. 1:20:12.560 --> 1:20:16.479 She called Charles Darwin fish that walk on land. January February. 1:20:17.760 --> 1:20:19.480 You know the fish is yeah. 1:20:19.439 --> 1:20:21.599 Sorry, yeah, it's all of those things. 1:20:22.240 --> 1:20:24.240 Very cool. January February. At the Times to go a 1:20:24.360 --> 1:20:27.439 medium price to hotel two hundred and eight dollars average 1:20:27.479 --> 1:20:29.720 flight price. That's the hard part. It's going to be 1:20:29.760 --> 1:20:31.040 pricey eighteen. 1:20:30.800 --> 1:20:33.479 Hundred books depending on where you're coming from. Depending where 1:20:33.479 --> 1:20:35.240 you're coming from, excuse me, that's from New York. Yeah, 1:20:35.240 --> 1:20:37.280 I mean if you're flying from like Madrid or something, 1:20:37.280 --> 1:20:37.720 it's going to be. 1:20:37.680 --> 1:20:38.639 A lot cheaper good points. 1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:40.280 It's in New York Center. 1:20:40.160 --> 1:20:42.000 Love the south of France. You've got something on there. 1:20:42.200 --> 1:20:43.439 Yeah, I don't know. 1:20:43.479 --> 1:20:45.600 Can we go there cheaply? I'm like looking around, I 1:20:45.600 --> 1:20:46.800 guess there are times we can go. 1:20:46.840 --> 1:20:48.120 Well, I'll tell you it's going to be a lot 1:20:48.160 --> 1:20:50.599 more affordable than Sand Trapez. And the place that we're 1:20:50.600 --> 1:20:54.880 talking about is Cap Ferrey and it is a beautiful 1:20:55.040 --> 1:20:59.599 kind of imagine what Montak would have been like decades ago. 1:21:00.200 --> 1:21:03.960 I used to go to Montalk like, so you can 1:21:04.000 --> 1:21:07.000 tell me exactly what I love. I said, it was 1:21:07.040 --> 1:21:09.479 really sleepy and lovely and it was so sweet. 1:21:09.640 --> 1:21:11.559 So that's exactly what you're going to get in this 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:15.200 In this little we're talking about the Bay of Arachnan. 1:21:15.600 --> 1:21:17.720 I may be pronouncing that completely wrong, and I'm so 1:21:17.720 --> 1:21:19.479 sorry to the French people who are listening, if so, 1:21:20.000 --> 1:21:23.479 but it's a small community on inlet with fishermen huts 1:21:23.479 --> 1:21:26.240 and colorful houses and places where you can eat seafood 1:21:26.280 --> 1:21:29.520 that's just been plucked out of the sea. Little boutique 1:21:29.560 --> 1:21:32.799 hotels that are terribly spelled you'll see in the package. 1:21:32.840 --> 1:21:34.880 We even call them out for their ridiculous stylings of 1:21:34.960 --> 1:21:36.879 their names I'm not even gonna dare pronounce. 1:21:37.800 --> 1:21:39.680 And a new company called Iconic. 1:21:39.439 --> 1:21:42.519 House that does really really cool villa rentals for way 1:21:42.600 --> 1:21:43.040 less than. 1:21:42.920 --> 1:21:44.799 You would spend in classic rivi or a destination. 1:21:44.960 --> 1:21:46.559 It kind of looked like they were named by Grimes 1:21:46.560 --> 1:21:47.280 and Elon Musk. 1:21:47.640 --> 1:21:50.160 You know, when they name their it's like the parentheses 1:21:50.200 --> 1:21:52.200 and accent marks all over the place, which is why 1:21:52.240 --> 1:21:53.360 I won't try to say. 1:21:53.200 --> 1:21:53.880 What they are called. 1:21:54.040 --> 1:21:56.320 Love Love, Love where else? What's your What was a 1:21:56.360 --> 1:21:58.840 surprise to you as you were putting this list together 1:21:58.840 --> 1:21:59.640 that you think my was. 1:21:59.600 --> 1:22:01.479 A lot of funk a place that might surprise a 1:22:01.520 --> 1:22:04.200 lot of folks. Well, you know, we've got places on 1:22:04.240 --> 1:22:06.479 this list that are kind of humble in my mind, 1:22:06.600 --> 1:22:10.760 like Lexington, Kentucky, which we're calling as kind of the 1:22:10.800 --> 1:22:14.400 next Nashville. And then we have places that just really 1:22:14.439 --> 1:22:17.679 kind of elude the common radar, like the Seychelles, which 1:22:17.680 --> 1:22:20.479 are actually, if you're in the know, a very classic 1:22:20.560 --> 1:22:24.600 luxury destination where hotels command really high for figure prices. 1:22:25.160 --> 1:22:27.120 But there's a spate of new openings there that are 1:22:27.200 --> 1:22:29.559 drying kind of new appeal, new flight access, things like 1:22:29.600 --> 1:22:31.120 that that are really kind of putting that on the 1:22:31.160 --> 1:22:34.679 map for a wider number of travelers than before. Seychelles 1:22:34.760 --> 1:22:36.320 is super high on my list, and if you look 1:22:36.320 --> 1:22:38.479 at the pictures in the digital package you'll know why. 1:22:39.080 --> 1:22:40.320 Yeah, books out of. 1:22:40.280 --> 1:22:43.080 This world, Carol. If you don't want to fly anywhere, 1:22:43.360 --> 1:22:46.160 you can step out of this building. You can turn 1:22:46.320 --> 1:22:48.439 right to walk a few blocks in the north and 1:22:48.520 --> 1:22:50.240 you can go to the upper east side, which yes, 1:22:50.720 --> 1:22:52.000 is on the list. 1:22:52.040 --> 1:22:53.479 Here, Nikki, call me crazy? 1:22:53.600 --> 1:22:53.800 Help? 1:22:53.840 --> 1:22:54.680 Are you crazy? 1:22:54.840 --> 1:22:55.080 Help? 1:22:55.200 --> 1:22:57.160 I know? Well, here's the thing, you guys. 1:22:57.240 --> 1:22:59.840 The Frick Museum is reopening. The hotel scene is getting 1:22:59.880 --> 1:23:02.320 a major glow up. The Surrey has just been brought 1:23:02.360 --> 1:23:05.080 back to life by Corinthia, which is top, top notch 1:23:05.400 --> 1:23:08.360 with an import from Miami called Casatua. It's a restaurant 1:23:08.360 --> 1:23:09.959 that is like the hottest place. 1:23:09.760 --> 1:23:12.479 On earth right now. So dare to correct me, but 1:23:12.520 --> 1:23:13.559 I'm pretty sure it's right. 1:23:13.600 --> 1:23:17.480 And the era the flights are really cheap. 1:23:18.720 --> 1:23:19.640 Zero Dodgar. 1:23:21.160 --> 1:23:24.439 There for one hundred bucks, right, But don't dare at 1:23:24.439 --> 1:23:27.439 the price of dinner right there is that. 1:23:27.640 --> 1:23:29.320 No hotels are not cheap. 1:23:29.560 --> 1:23:31.640 No, not around here. But I promise you'll have a 1:23:31.680 --> 1:23:32.400 great night out. 1:23:32.520 --> 1:23:34.160 Where do you want to go in twenty twenty five 1:23:34.200 --> 1:23:35.000 real quickly. 1:23:34.920 --> 1:23:37.519 Ooh, you know what, strange but true. I really want 1:23:37.520 --> 1:23:40.160 to go to Rotterdam. New museums that are opening there 1:23:40.320 --> 1:23:42.840 looks just like Amsterdam, but way under the radar. 1:23:43.040 --> 1:23:44.360 It looks fabulous. 1:23:44.720 --> 1:23:48.439 You are fabulous. Nicki Xtein Travels are here at Bloomberg Pursuits. 1:23:48.439 --> 1:23:50.360 I highly recommend you head to Bloomberg dot com and 1:23:50.439 --> 1:23:52.040 check this out. Nikki, thank you so much. 1:23:52.280 --> 1:23:53.520 This is Bloomberg. 1:23:55.320 --> 1:23:59.960 This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, 1:24:00.280 --> 1:24:04.000 and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday 1:24:04.040 --> 1:24:08.040 afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, 1:24:08.080 --> 1:24:12.000 the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business App. 1:24:12.240 --> 1:24:15.040 You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube 1:24:15.200 --> 1:24:17.360 and always on the Bloomberg terminal.