Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Lenny Wilkins. You out there.
Speaker 2: I'm here, Kenny, I'm here. I'm hearing you.
Speaker 3: Apologies and apologies as we start with Lenny Wilkins. We're
Speaker 3: only fifty six months behind the schedule of time, and
Speaker 3: so we appreciate your patience.
Speaker 1: You know. Usually it's me. I'm not even blaming you.
Speaker 1: I'm just blaming.
Speaker 3: Society for the problems we have, and it's making me
Speaker 3: as we reflect on your amazing life and career.
Speaker 1: I kind of missed the old days, man.
Speaker 3: I grew up south of Seattle and we had one
Speaker 3: phone with a cord. We had one TV that didn't
Speaker 3: even always work. My grandma would have to slap it
Speaker 3: to watch your programs. We have sonics, we had the newspaper.
Speaker 3: We were doing just fine.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all this technology, all right, and that does change everything.
Speaker 3: Hey, before we talk about all the things I want
Speaker 3: to talk about with regard to basketball, primarily obviously, and
Speaker 3: all the other good works you've done, congratulations are in order.
Speaker 3: Am I correct? Sixty years of marriage?
Speaker 1: Did that just? Oh?
Speaker 2: That's correct, that's correct, Kenny. Yeah, yeah, it's My wife
Speaker 2: says it's because I was on the road half of
Speaker 2: the time. But yeah, sixty years.
Speaker 3: That's Maryland, right, yes, and that was in July, I believe. So,
Speaker 3: you know, instead of basketball, how about just life advice?
Speaker 3: How did you pull that off for sixty years? Not
Speaker 3: a lot of people have that accomplishment.
Speaker 2: No, no, But you know, one of the most important
Speaker 2: things is communication, and it's the same and just about
Speaker 2: everything you do, and unication is so important. You've got
Speaker 2: to talk to one another. You got to know what
Speaker 2: we're thinking, you know, and how we make each other
Speaker 2: happy stuff like that. And we've been blessed with three
Speaker 2: wonderful children. Uh they turned out to be wonderful people.
Speaker 2: And I give her all the credit for that.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: So you know it's you know you and then you
Speaker 2: got to be active in something that she supports, and
Speaker 2: she supports me doing charitable things, being involved in the community,
Speaker 2: you know, stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you were working a team. You were a team.
Speaker 1: Still are a team, Yes, still are a team.
Speaker 3: Were there times this might be a better question for her, actually,
Speaker 3: but you moved around a bit, you know. You you
Speaker 3: played in a bunch of places, you coached in a
Speaker 3: bunch of places, and it was like, were there times
Speaker 3: that the call came in, you like, you know, this
Speaker 3: is the right deal for you, right, you know, you
Speaker 3: know professionally you should take this job or you should
Speaker 3: go to that team. But then you had to secondarily
Speaker 3: break it to her or was it always with her
Speaker 3: and she would endorse it, then you'd decided.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think always. But once I started, she
Speaker 2: batted me. But give you for an instance, when I
Speaker 2: first got traded to Seattle and I came out here
Speaker 2: and I was here for one year, and then the
Speaker 2: general manager they fired the coach, and they talked to
Speaker 2: me about being a playing a player coach, and I
Speaker 2: told the general manager, I said, you must be crazy,
Speaker 2: you know. But then I said, let me think about it,
Speaker 2: you know. So I went home and I talked to
Speaker 2: my wife and I mentioned to her that they want
Speaker 2: me to be a player coach and I think I'll
Speaker 2: do it. And she said, you must be stupid of crazy,
Speaker 2: And she says, I know you're not stupid. You know,
Speaker 2: you got to be crazy, you know. But anyway, we
Speaker 2: pretty much agreed on a lot of things, and you know,
Speaker 2: and it's worked out.
Speaker 3: Am I correct? Was was the coach who got fired?
Speaker 3: Was that al Bianki or do I have my timeline
Speaker 3: messed up? Who got fired to have you be the
Speaker 3: next coach as a player coach at that time?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was al Biyankee, who I knew. I had
Speaker 2: played against him, and you know, but they wanted someone
Speaker 2: I don't know. You know, when I told the general
Speaker 2: manager he was crazy, he said to me, well, you
Speaker 2: run the team anyway. You know. I don't know how
Speaker 2: he got that assumption.
Speaker 1: But you were the leader. You were the point guard,
Speaker 1: you know, right.
Speaker 3: So on Twitter as we taped this on a Thursday
Speaker 3: in October, on Twitter, just yes, in fact it was
Speaker 3: it was Caesars, the people I do some work for.
Speaker 3: They put on Twitter they said who was your favorite
Speaker 3: player when you were age ten? And I wrote Lenny Wilkins.
Speaker 3: And I'm interviewing him tomorrow. So for the people who
Speaker 3: haven't heard this story, I've only told it a million times.
Speaker 3: I was a little kid in South Seattle. You were
Speaker 3: this left handed running hook point guard out of Providence,
Speaker 3: and I loved your play, I loved your style.
Speaker 1: I love about you.
Speaker 3: And then all these years later we become friends because
Speaker 3: I got involved with you and your foundation when you
Speaker 3: would throw the gala and the golf tournament up in Seattle,
Speaker 3: and that was benefiting the Odessa Brown Clinic, helping some
Speaker 3: kids in an underserved community get healthcare. You were involved
Speaker 3: in that cause well before it even became a true
Speaker 3: national issue, this big argument over the right to healthcare
Speaker 3: in America.
Speaker 1: What got you involved?
Speaker 3: What did you see that made you inclined to like
Speaker 3: take that on as your mission?
Speaker 2: Well, a number of reasons. You know, back home, my mom,
Speaker 2: it was always tough on her. It wasn't easy. My
Speaker 2: dad passed away when I was five years old. But
Speaker 2: I had some role models who besides my mother, there
Speaker 2: was a parish priest who was like a big brother.
Speaker 2: His name was Father Tom Mannion, and he was always
Speaker 2: encouraging and letting us know that we had to give
Speaker 2: back when we were in position too. And when my
Speaker 2: mother didn't like the guys or the people I was
Speaker 2: hanging out with, she would ask him to talk to me.
Speaker 2: And we used to call them iron hands because when
Speaker 2: he grabbed you by the shoulder, you couldn't get away.
Speaker 2: And he used to always have an expression that he
Speaker 2: said to me was like, you know, who promised you?
Speaker 2: Did someone promise you life was going to be easy?
Speaker 2: And so that was always on my mind that yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not easy, but you can make it if you try.
Speaker 2: And so with him encouraging me, and then I met
Speaker 2: Jackie Robinson who and I was a big baseball fan
Speaker 2: at that time. Uh and Dodgers, the Brooklyn Dodgers were
Speaker 2: huge in our community. And I got to meet Jackie
Speaker 2: Robinson who was a fierce competitor, played with great intelligence,
Speaker 2: you know, and he was always encouraging. So those were
Speaker 2: two guys that I looked up to. And uh and
Speaker 2: then when I got traded to Seattle, I had well
Speaker 2: I was in Saint Louis first, and I used to
Speaker 2: work with a program called Shoes for Kids. We provided
Speaker 2: around Christmas time little things that these kids couldn't afford
Speaker 2: or didn't have. And uh, so when I came to Seattle,
Speaker 2: I met two ladies who sort of adopted me and
Speaker 2: my wife. One was her name was Freddie May Gautier,
Speaker 2: and there was Toby Burton, and they were very active
Speaker 2: in the community. And they introduced me to the Ojesseah
Speaker 2: Brown Children's Clinic and the medical director was a gal
Speaker 2: by the name of Blanche Lavinzio, who when I saw
Speaker 2: how she worked with young people, showing them a lot
Speaker 2: of encouragement, treating them with great dignity no matter who
Speaker 2: they were or where they came from. You know, that
Speaker 2: wasn't an issue. It was the healthcare that she wanted
Speaker 2: to provide. And that became my charity after that. When
Speaker 2: I saw that, and I saw that they were treating
Speaker 2: Native Americans, African American, white, didn't make any difference. You know,
Speaker 2: they were afforded the care irregardless of their ability to pay.
Speaker 2: So that became my charity. And we started out with
Speaker 2: a roast, and then we did the colf tournament and
Speaker 2: then my wife suggested we had a dinner, and it
Speaker 2: just grew and grew and grew.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got to meet Tommy Davis, National League batting
Speaker 3: champion a couple of times, played for the Seattle Pilots
Speaker 3: briefly nineteen sixty nine, the one year we had the Pilots,
Speaker 3: And he was your good friend growing up in Brooklyn,
Speaker 3: and if I have the story right, he was very
Speaker 3: influential in you sticking with basketball and believing in yourself
Speaker 3: to go and make the effort take us through your
Speaker 3: high school years. And how Tommy Davis impacted you.
Speaker 2: There well, Tommy and I were We were good friends.
Speaker 2: We lived near each other. We used to you know.
Speaker 2: He taught me into coming out for the high school team,
Speaker 2: which I did, and Tommy was all American everything, but
Speaker 2: he was a starter on the basketball team. And when
Speaker 2: I came out for the team, I was like number fifteen.
Speaker 2: They had fifteen guys. I was number fifteen, and I
Speaker 2: didn't play much, you know, And so I dropped off
Speaker 2: the team because I had a little job on the side.
Speaker 2: But I started going to the playgrounds more and I
Speaker 2: started to play the pal the Police Athletic League, the CYO,
Speaker 2: and I started to get better and better, and by
Speaker 2: my junior year, I had improved a lot, and Tommy
Speaker 2: was persistent. So I went out for the team my
Speaker 2: junior year and made the starting five, and wow, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, but we had a great coach, and he
Speaker 2: was very encouraging, you know, even though I hadn't played much.
Speaker 2: He said I had great court vision. I didn't know
Speaker 2: what he was talking about at the time, but later
Speaker 2: on I began to understand, and so I kind of
Speaker 2: slipped away from the ball and went more to basketball,
Speaker 2: although I still watched baseball. In fact, I didn't see
Speaker 2: my first pro basketball until my senior year in college,
Speaker 2: but I had seen a lot of baseball games.
Speaker 3: Well, it's both amazing to hear, you know, you tell
Speaker 3: it that way, and also I think instructive for people
Speaker 3: doing anything, doesn't matter what walk of life, whether it's
Speaker 3: athletics or business or relationship. How perseverance is almost a
Speaker 3: greater key than whatever talent, right, Like you have to
Speaker 3: not give up on yourself. But it's just funny to
Speaker 3: see that you way back when you're sixteen, seventeen, whatever
Speaker 3: you were, kind of had a crossroads and with the
Speaker 3: encouragement of somebody and the improvement, and then you end
Speaker 3: up being, you know, three time Hall of Fame basketball
Speaker 3: guy some years later. And do you ever reflect on that,
Speaker 3: like it could have gone a different way?
Speaker 2: Not much. No, I never thought about it other than,
Speaker 2: you know, I other than baseball. I always thought that
Speaker 2: I was probably going to be a school teacher. So,
Speaker 2: you know, I was always impressed with the teachers I had,
Speaker 2: especially one in high school who was a history teacher,
Speaker 2: and he made you feel like you were right there
Speaker 2: when things were happening. And that's a gift, you know.
Speaker 2: And I always thought Wow. I mean, you know, so
Speaker 2: I thought possibly I might be a school teacher. But
Speaker 2: you know, in many ways, being involved in sports and
Speaker 2: being a coach, you're teaching.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, you absolutely were and continued to be a teacher,
Speaker 3: just in a different ways maybe than you had predicted.
Speaker 3: How did you get from there in Brooklyn to Providence
Speaker 3: and how was the choice made the Providence would be
Speaker 3: the best choice for you?
Speaker 2: Well, I you know, like I said, I only played
Speaker 2: a half a year high school ball. I had gotten
Speaker 2: skipped once and skipped the grade, and so I graduated
Speaker 2: a half a year in the middle of this school year,
Speaker 2: I had graduated my and so no one really saw
Speaker 2: me play. But the priest's friend, who was like a
Speaker 2: big brother, wrote to Providence College and talked to the coach,
Speaker 2: wrote him a letter and recommended that they watched me
Speaker 2: play or come see me. And because they knew that
Speaker 2: I couldn't afford to go to pay for college, but
Speaker 2: he felt I deserve a scholarship. So Joe Mulaney, who
Speaker 2: was the coach of Providence, came down to see boys
Speaker 2: high play the high school I went to. But I
Speaker 2: wasn't playing because my class had graduated. But he gave
Speaker 2: me a brochure, so I filled it out and nailed
Speaker 2: it in, and that summer I was eligible to play
Speaker 2: in some of the high school tournaments. So I played
Speaker 2: for a team called a Flushing Y MCA and we
Speaker 2: played against all the other teams that were in the
Speaker 2: league were mostly you know, high school all Americans, and
Speaker 2: we won the tournament. I was the MVP of the tournament.
Speaker 2: And Joe mulaney, who was the coach of Providence, his
Speaker 2: dad was at the game and he said, this can't
Speaker 2: be the same kid that wants to go to Providence.
Speaker 2: So after that I got a They called me and
Speaker 2: talked to me and said that my grades were good
Speaker 2: and I would get a full scholarship. So I went
Speaker 2: to Profets and we had a hell of a freshman team, Kenny.
Speaker 2: We were undefeated. We were twenty three in.
Speaker 3: All h man But I mean that's you know, things
Speaker 3: quickly accelerated, because not too long after that, you know,
Speaker 3: you get drafted into the NBA, and everybody who knows
Speaker 3: your basketball playing and your coaching think the other guy
Speaker 3: had it easy, you know, because you had such great success.
Speaker 3: Not everybody knows the backstory where there was this one school,
Speaker 3: you had to fill out a pamphlet, somebody had to
Speaker 3: notice you over a summer game or two. That's a
Speaker 3: pretty quick ascendency to end up accomplishing what you ultimately did.
Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't easy. And you know, they sent a
Speaker 2: scout up to Providence to talk to me about, you know,
Speaker 2: because I was drafted by the Saint Louis Hawks, who
Speaker 2: I had never seen a pro game. You know, I
Speaker 2: didn't watch I watched baseball, I didn't watch basketball. And
Speaker 2: so one of the friends, one of my friends on
Speaker 2: my teammate who lived in Boston, the Celtics were playing
Speaker 2: the Hawks for the championship, and he said, well, why
Speaker 2: don't you see if you can get tickets to the game.
Speaker 2: So I asked the scout about it, and he took
Speaker 2: us to the Boston Celtic Saint Louis Hawk game. And
Speaker 2: so I watched, and I watched the Hawk players, the
Speaker 2: Saint Louis Hawks players, their guards, and I thought I
Speaker 2: was as good as they were, you know, And so
Speaker 2: I decided that I would try to play in the
Speaker 2: pro level. So we agreed to a contract and I
Speaker 2: went out to Saint Louis.
Speaker 3: You know, well, well, eventually you came out to Seattle.
Speaker 3: I heard you speak in Seattle just a few weeks ago.
Speaker 3: You and I were both at a fundraiser and you
Speaker 3: were saying, you know, kind of came, you know, kicking
Speaker 3: and screaming, then quickly like, oh, I kind of like
Speaker 3: this place. And you've you never left right other than
Speaker 3: when you went and coached elsewhere, but Seattle was called
Speaker 3: kind of your home base, and is now I remember
Speaker 3: because I'm now, you know, I think maybe grade school
Speaker 3: in the junior high when you're starting to really become
Speaker 3: a star and a star for the Sonics, and they
Speaker 3: traded you to Cleveland for Butcher Beard.
Speaker 1: And I can't tell you how as.
Speaker 3: A little in so many of my friends, because we
Speaker 3: know we revered these Sonic players, and you in particular,
Speaker 3: how much and how hard that hit us. You You
Speaker 3: at the time had just started to like get comfortable
Speaker 3: in Seattle, right, and then all of a sudden you
Speaker 3: get traded. How did that trade hit you at the time?
Speaker 3: And if I have the story right, tell me if
Speaker 3: I'm wrong. You were I think golfing heard it from
Speaker 3: somebody at the golf course. You didn't even get approached
Speaker 3: directly by the team.
Speaker 2: Right well, the train the team. At that time, they
Speaker 2: hired a new general manager and so, and he had
Speaker 2: talked to me. He said that I should play all coach.
Speaker 2: He didn't want me to do both, and and I said, well,
Speaker 2: you don't pay me enough to coach, so I just
Speaker 2: assumed be a player. And then and then I started
Speaker 2: hearing rumors that they were going to trade me, and
Speaker 2: because they were afraid the players would want to listen
Speaker 2: to me and not the new coach. And so I
Speaker 2: was out playing golf with Marv Harshman, who was the
Speaker 2: coach of the UW Huskies, who was a good friend,
Speaker 2: and we were about to tee off when I got
Speaker 2: a call from my wife saying that the Sonic office
Speaker 2: had just called to say I was traded. And so
Speaker 2: I didn't play golf that day. I left, I apologized
Speaker 2: and went home. And then when I got to my house,
Speaker 2: the media was all in our front yard, and I
Speaker 2: was very disappointed, because, yeah, we did we loved it here,
Speaker 2: and we didn't at first, but when we first got there,
Speaker 2: after being here for a while, we got to meet people.
Speaker 2: Our kids were comfortable. You know, we had two kids
Speaker 2: at the time and so I was very disappointed, and
Speaker 2: I threatened that I wouldn't go. You know, I said
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to go, and I was being offered
Speaker 2: lots of jobs. But then the owner of the Cleveland
Speaker 2: team where I was traded to, he and the coach
Speaker 2: flew out here to talk to me about coming to Cleveland.
Speaker 2: And after meeting them and listening and whatnot, I decided
Speaker 2: that I would go because I felt I had some
Speaker 2: good years left that I could play. So that's how
Speaker 2: I decided to go to Cleveland, you know. But after
Speaker 2: being there a couple of years, when I was offered
Speaker 2: to come back here by Herman Sarkowski, who own part
Speaker 2: of the Portland Trailblazers, and so I, you know, we
Speaker 2: still had a home in Seattle, and I decided I
Speaker 2: would take that job. So I retired from Cleveland. And
Speaker 2: when I got to Portland, I thought I was just
Speaker 2: going to be their coach, and they had gotten my
Speaker 2: acquired my playing rights, and I became a player coach again.
Speaker 2: You know, rot.
Speaker 3: Well retired from playing. You know, we know about the
Speaker 3: coaching that would come soon up in Seattle. So go
Speaker 3: backwards a little bit. I've told you the story a
Speaker 3: couple of times. You came as a Cleveland player to
Speaker 3: play back in Seattle. You know, this is your return game.
Speaker 3: The place I got sold out. I'm only like twelve
Speaker 3: years old, and we didn't enough money to buy from
Speaker 3: the scalpers. The game was sold out and we only
Speaker 3: had ten or twenty bucks on us and the tickets
Speaker 3: were too high, so we just like messed around the
Speaker 3: Seattle Center. I went on the space needle. I think
Speaker 3: threw a T shirt off the Space needl in protest,
Speaker 3: thinking people would understand that. I don't know if I
Speaker 3: conveyed my protest the way right way, But the crowd
Speaker 3: cheered for you the whole game, and I think did
Speaker 3: Cleveland win the game? I think you did, but I
Speaker 3: can't swear to it, but I know the crowd was
Speaker 3: totally on your side, giving you the appreciation you deserved
Speaker 3: as you came back for a different team.
Speaker 2: Kenny, it was incredible. If you talk about memorable moments,
Speaker 2: that was incredible because my wife didn't want to come
Speaker 2: to the game, and so our friends talked her in
Speaker 2: to come to the game and they would sit with her.
Speaker 2: You know. But when we got there, right from the beginning,
Speaker 2: there were signs everywhere saying this is Lenny's country, and
Speaker 2: they cheered, and when I was introduced, they had to
Speaker 2: stop the ovation so we could start the game. It
Speaker 2: was incredible, and they cheered the whole game, law and
Speaker 2: that was the first time Cleveland ever beat Seattle and
Speaker 2: we won the game. It was just an incredible highlight.
Speaker 2: I've never experienced anything like that. It was unbelievable and
Speaker 2: it was just amazing.
Speaker 3: Good news is you eventually did come back to Seattle
Speaker 3: as the head coach. First were you the assistant, then
Speaker 3: you took over for Hopkins.
Speaker 1: Is that what it was?
Speaker 3: Where we had a slow start and you elevated up
Speaker 3: to be the head coach the year we would eventually
Speaker 3: lose to the Bullets now the Wizards in seventy eight.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, correct. What happened was that that summer when
Speaker 2: I was in Seattle, I was at dinner and the
Speaker 2: owner of the Sonics kept following me around all night long,
Speaker 2: wanting me to come back to Seattle. And I had
Speaker 2: you know, I had worked for CBS that year doing
Speaker 2: color commentating. Of course, after a year or two with Portland,
Speaker 2: I left. Uh and uh, but my home was in Seattle.
Speaker 2: So the owner talked to me. So I came back.
Speaker 2: I was in the front office. I was, you know,
Speaker 2: assistant general manager, director of player personnel, and they had
Speaker 2: a trade going on when I accepted the job, and
Speaker 2: I blocked the trade. They wanted to trade Fred Brown,
Speaker 2: and I said it was a bad trade, you know,
Speaker 2: because I they were trying to trade him to the
Speaker 2: Lakers for a player. I can't remember the player's name.
Speaker 2: He wasn't He was okay, but he wasn't. Fred could
Speaker 2: really shoot the ball. And I said, we can't give
Speaker 2: up on Fred. I said no, so I they listened.
Speaker 2: I blocked the trade, and then I made a trade.
Speaker 2: I traded Tom Burleson to Denver for Paul Silas and
Speaker 2: Marvin Webster. And then I also traded that There was
Speaker 2: a free agent, Gus Williams with Golden State, and all
Speaker 2: we had to do was pay his deferred income because
Speaker 2: they didn't want to re sign. And when I found
Speaker 2: him out, it was only seventy thousand dollars his deferred income.
Speaker 2: I said, I told Sam I was going to do it.
Speaker 2: He said, okay, if you feel it's right, and I
Speaker 2: said yeah. I said, we'll never get another player like that.
Speaker 2: So I got Gus Williams, and now I got Silas
Speaker 2: and Marvin Western, Fred Brown and you know, and Slick
Speaker 2: was on that team and everybody but I was in
Speaker 2: the front office, and I promised Sam I would not
Speaker 2: interfere with the coaching going on. And well, they got
Speaker 2: off to a terrible start, you know. They I was
Speaker 2: at a restaurant opening one evening. I didn't go to
Speaker 2: the game, and they lost that game, and they were
Speaker 2: the signs were five and fifteen. And so when I
Speaker 2: got home, the babysitter said that the owner had called
Speaker 2: three times, and the deral manager called three times. So
Speaker 2: I finally called the general manager and he said the
Speaker 2: owner wanted to change right now. And the team had
Speaker 2: already left town because they went to Denver, and so
Speaker 2: I said that we can talk in the morning. And
Speaker 2: the next morning I talked with them, and that night
Speaker 2: they lost to Denver and the Denver general manager said
Speaker 2: they were the worst team in the league. Call she
Speaker 2: had made that quote, And now Sam really wanted he
Speaker 2: was fired up. He wanted to make a change right now.
Speaker 2: So I said, well, I you know, I can get
Speaker 2: to Kansas City. So Zally Voltchok the general manager, and
Speaker 2: I fly to Kansas City and we get there and
Speaker 2: Zally relieves Bob Hopkins of his job of the coaching job,
Speaker 2: and he seemed relieved to me, but I didn't say
Speaker 2: a word. And after the change was made, I had
Speaker 2: called the meeting of the team and I told them
Speaker 2: that I thought we could be better take a little time,
Speaker 2: but that it would be important to go out tonight
Speaker 2: and play as hard as we could against Kansas City,
Speaker 2: and then we would have two three days off in
Speaker 2: Boston where we could tweak a few things. And the
Speaker 2: players seemed happy and relieve, you know, because by now
Speaker 2: they were five and seventeen. And I we win that
Speaker 2: game by one point. And then we go to Boston
Speaker 2: and I changed the starting lineup. I tell the guys
Speaker 2: why I'm changing the starting lineup, that I thought we
Speaker 2: would be better using guys in different positions, and they
Speaker 2: all seemed to be okay, you know. And because they
Speaker 2: were starting Fred Brown and Slick as the two guards,
Speaker 2: and Fred was fine with coming off the bench. Slick
Speaker 2: wasn't real happy, but he put up with it, you know.
Speaker 2: And so we win ten straight after that, and uh,
Speaker 2: and we turned it around and we got to the
Speaker 2: to the playoffs. You know, we got to the finals
Speaker 2: and we lost that game. Uh. And the next year
Speaker 2: I felt real good about it and we won the championship.
Speaker 3: Yeah no, I mean now, but now I'm in college.
Speaker 3: So I saw we lost to the Bullets in the
Speaker 3: seventy eight finals.
Speaker 1: I was in JC.
Speaker 3: Then down at UNLV the next year, will we win
Speaker 3: the whole thing? We left out a couple of good
Speaker 3: names we're appealing through. Remember there's John Johnson, the small forward,
Speaker 3: Dennis Johnson, of course, you know, standout guard. You have
Speaker 3: the amazing reeguard offense cuts and DJ and Fred Brown
Speaker 3: coming off the bench to shoot the ball. Sigma was
Speaker 3: fairly new, right, jacksonth coming in, you know, up and
Speaker 3: down and they and they played such a defensive game, right.
Speaker 3: You had a great assistant coach who was who was
Speaker 3: helping run the defense. You know, it was instrumental in
Speaker 3: what you guys did to come back and and get
Speaker 3: back into the title.
Speaker 2: Yeah, less Harburger, Yeah my, Uh. You know, JJ and
Speaker 2: I had played together in Cleveland, so I got him
Speaker 2: for a second round pick from Portland. And uh, I
Speaker 2: used to tell Gus and Dennis and then I said,
Speaker 2: if JJ gets the ball, you guys take off. Of course,
Speaker 2: he was like a point forward. I mean, he could
Speaker 2: handle the ball. And I said, he'll find you, so
Speaker 2: just take off and go and and they did. Uh
Speaker 2: and uh, it was I mean, it was a lot
Speaker 2: of moves we made. Uh. You know, Sam allowed me to,
Speaker 2: you know, make the trade for Gus to acquire JJ
Speaker 2: for a second round pick, you know, to trade uh
Speaker 2: for Marvin Webster, you know. And then of course we
Speaker 2: didn't have Marvin that next year because he was such
Speaker 2: a valuable talent. The New York Knicks signed him for
Speaker 2: a big chunk of money, and but at that time
Speaker 2: they had to sort of give you compensation. And so
Speaker 2: I took Lonnie Shelton because I had seen him play
Speaker 2: at Oregon. And so we got Lonnie Shelton. And then
Speaker 2: Jack was The Sonics had scouted Jack, but then they
Speaker 2: were changing their mind and I talked them out of
Speaker 2: it because I had seen Jack play in the Naia
Speaker 2: and you know, he rebounded, he could score, his free
Speaker 2: throws were good, and I kept telling them that he
Speaker 2: was going to be a good player. So when I
Speaker 2: drafted him, the headlines in the Seattle Times was Jack
Speaker 2: who you know, And and then we didn't get him
Speaker 2: signed until late in the summer, and he came to
Speaker 2: the Summer League and his first game was against Moses Malone. Well,
Speaker 2: Moses ate everybody up, I mean, you know, and he
Speaker 2: scored like forty on jacks in that game. And Sam
Speaker 2: the owner said, who picked him? And everybody pointed to me,
Speaker 2: and I said, yep, that's why I did. I said,
Speaker 2: but give him a chance. I said, you know, he
Speaker 2: hadn't played basketball all summer. He was playing golf. So
Speaker 2: and as it turned out, he's in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2: Now he's in the Hall of Fame. Now that's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, was it of all the coaching you did,
Speaker 3: and you know, you kept coaching a long time after that,
Speaker 3: to see a team go from five to seventeen and
Speaker 3: they ended up making the title series and then winning
Speaker 3: it the next year. Obviously winning the title is the
Speaker 3: biggest thing you can do, but just to see the
Speaker 3: learning process and the gain of confidence and the way
Speaker 3: players learned new roles and all that was one had
Speaker 3: to be one of, like, you know, the most pleasing
Speaker 3: things you did as a.
Speaker 2: Coach, satisfying and you know it reaffirmed that I was
Speaker 2: doing the right things, that I was on the right track.
Speaker 2: And so I always felt every time I went to
Speaker 2: a team, I helped them to be better than they were.
Speaker 2: And I loved that part of the game because the
Speaker 2: guys were responsive, they saw that I was going to
Speaker 2: help make them better, and so it was fun in
Speaker 2: that respect. You know, I feel that every team I coached,
Speaker 2: they were very competitive and they competed when they stepped
Speaker 2: on that floor, and that's what I wanted.
Speaker 3: The next year is when the Lakers, Right, the Lakers
Speaker 3: kind of come into their own down there, and you're.
Speaker 1: Still a rival with them, you know, still playing them tough.
Speaker 3: But they went on a good long run with Kareem
Speaker 3: and Irvan Johnson and James Worthy and all that. And
Speaker 3: you traded and kind of the you'll know the dates
Speaker 3: better than I. You traded away Dennis Johnson for Paul Westfall.
Speaker 3: Why did you do that?
Speaker 2: Well, Dennis wanted out. I couldn't get Sam to redo
Speaker 2: his contract. Sam just refused, and Dennis was very unhappy
Speaker 2: and he almost caused us to lose in a playoff
Speaker 2: game because he just was an unhappy camper. And you know,
Speaker 2: and I knew why, you know, because he had gotten
Speaker 2: the MVP award in the playoffs and he deserved a
Speaker 2: better contract. But but Sam just refused, and so he
Speaker 2: wanted out. So the only the trade that we could
Speaker 2: make that we thought was going to be a good
Speaker 2: trade was Paul west Fall, and we traded him to
Speaker 2: Phoenix for Paul west Fall. Well, Paul came and he
Speaker 2: got hurt, and you know, and he had some issues himself,
Speaker 2: but he was hurt most of the year. And now
Speaker 2: Dennis with Phoenix, they were going downhill as well. And
Speaker 2: so I get a call from Boston from Red Orback,
Speaker 2: who I knew real well, and coach Casey Jones, and
Speaker 2: they asked me about Dennis. So I said, hey, listen,
Speaker 2: I said, this guy is a great player if you
Speaker 2: can get him. I said, you're going to have to
Speaker 2: take care of his contract. No, because he won't come.
Speaker 2: Other than that, I said, but if you take care
Speaker 2: of his contract, you guys with your veteran team, he'll
Speaker 2: be a great player. And sure enough he was. But
Speaker 2: I have to tell you this, Kenny. A year or
Speaker 2: two later, Dennis came to me and apologized for being
Speaker 2: upset at the time, but it was more because of
Speaker 2: his contract, and I said, hey, fine, I said, just
Speaker 2: be the player I thought you could be, okay, and
Speaker 2: he was. You know, he was a great player.
Speaker 3: You talked about having your own children, but in a sense,
Speaker 3: don't you feel like you have several hundred children at
Speaker 3: this point right? I'm sure you're still in contact with
Speaker 3: many or they come to you advice and explain that
Speaker 3: relationship through the years and the loyalties that you you get,
Speaker 3: you know, you receive towards you and also that you
Speaker 3: have toward them.
Speaker 2: Well, they listen. They helped me enjoy my job because
Speaker 2: they were responsive, They listened, they grew, and I was
Speaker 2: happy about that because I told them that when basketball
Speaker 2: is over, they're going to have to do other things,
Speaker 2: and so they responded to me. And the nice thing
Speaker 2: is that when I was doing my event, the doc
Speaker 2: tournament and the big dinner to raise funds for the
Speaker 2: Odessa Brown Children's Clinic, when I would ask them to come,
Speaker 2: they all came. I got pictures of Magic of Barkley,
Speaker 2: of you know, Lonnie, of Jack Sigma, of Gus. They
Speaker 2: all would come to the dinner and the tournament, and
Speaker 2: I was so pleased by it. Because they showed so
Speaker 2: much respect they had and we stayed in touch, you
Speaker 2: know when I went on trips or when I coached
Speaker 2: All Star games. They responded extremely well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was looking up, not that I don't know
Speaker 3: your career fairly well off top of my head. I
Speaker 3: think I missed one or two points. But your three
Speaker 3: time Hall of Fame member, correct, player, coach and Olympian.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I'm the only one in three times.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think the Internet hasn't cut up to that, because
Speaker 3: I saw so many sites that would talk about two
Speaker 3: time player.
Speaker 1: There was also was it nty two Olympics to I
Speaker 1: have that right?
Speaker 2: Ninety two Dream Teams? Yes? Right?
Speaker 1: Did you get to go make a new speech each time?
Speaker 1: Like how does that work?
Speaker 2: Well, they asked you to come, and certainly it's a highlight,
Speaker 2: and I would go, I'm very thankful for that, you know,
Speaker 2: and to be the only one in three times. And
Speaker 2: then I you know, I was the head coach in
Speaker 2: ninety six Dream Team and we won the goal and
Speaker 2: and that was fun, you know because that time the
Speaker 2: Olympics were held in Atlanta, and so it was wonderful
Speaker 2: to have it in our country before it was in Barcelona, Spain,
Speaker 2: which was a great experience.
Speaker 3: Are you one of those guys who looks at basketball
Speaker 3: and says it was better at a certain period of time,
Speaker 3: or do you just accept the basketball is what it
Speaker 3: is at the time that it's in. Right, it's a
Speaker 3: different game today than it was ten years ago and
Speaker 3: twenty years ago, and certainly when I was a little
Speaker 3: kid watching it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I do, Kenny. And you know, the hard
Speaker 2: thing is that the players in each era are great.
Speaker 2: They're allowed to do more things in different eras. You know,
Speaker 2: back then we had to pass, we had to play defense,
Speaker 2: we had to rebound, you had to do all those things.
Speaker 2: And today it's more scoring than anything. But they're still
Speaker 2: great athletes and it's no easy thing to win a championship,
Speaker 2: so you've got to give them credit.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean it's hard because you could grab player from
Speaker 3: the nineteen sixties and like, oh, how would he possibly compete?
Speaker 3: It's like, well, maybe he would, maybe, we just don't
Speaker 3: know because you can never do the control test, right.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think Wilt Chamberlain would do just fine today. Right, Like,
Speaker 3: there's all sorts of players through the decades that would
Speaker 3: transfer over to any.
Speaker 2: Decade exactly, exactly, Yes, that's for sure.
Speaker 3: Would you have developed your three point shot by now?
Speaker 3: Where you know you were the you were more passer
Speaker 3: and a little left handed running hook. You had a
Speaker 3: good jump shot, for sure, But would you want to
Speaker 3: would you have wanted to back out and be launching,
Speaker 3: you know, like Steph Curry does?
Speaker 2: Well? I you know, it's hard to say. I mean,
Speaker 2: I knew that I could get to the basket. I
Speaker 2: don't care who was guarding me. I could get by there.
Speaker 2: And I felt that by doing so, I was able
Speaker 2: to score or get my teammate in an easy shot.
Speaker 2: So I you know, to me, it's you know, it's
Speaker 2: whatever makes you effective, and so I think that probably
Speaker 2: would have shot more threes. But I liked what I
Speaker 2: was doing at the time, and I could do it well,
Speaker 2: and so I did it.
Speaker 3: How disappointed were you when you saw the Sonics depart
Speaker 3: and head to Oklahoma City? From my perspective, I was
Speaker 3: way out in Connecticut, you know, working in ESPN, watching
Speaker 3: them from a distance, and I kept thinking, Oh, somebody
Speaker 3: is gonna come in, and you know it's not gonna happen.
Speaker 3: There's no way that's gonna happen, and then sure enough,
Speaker 3: you know, they sold it to people who don't live
Speaker 3: in Seattle. They gave it a couple of years, they
Speaker 3: didn't get the gym they wanted, and they took off.
Speaker 3: But it was just stunning. It still is in a way.
Speaker 3: They almost unbelievable that we don't have an NBA team there.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was in the front office for
Speaker 2: a little bit during that time. I had come back,
Speaker 2: I stopped coaching bat ease, and I was in the
Speaker 2: front office and I could see what was happening, and
Speaker 2: I was I didn't think it should happen. I didn't
Speaker 2: think we marketed the way we should have the team,
Speaker 2: and they but they didn't want to listen to me. Now,
Speaker 2: the only time they listened to me is when I
Speaker 2: was asked to go back to New York for the
Speaker 2: draft a lot of the pick and I got the
Speaker 2: second pick, and I knew that Portland was taking the
Speaker 2: kid from Ohio State they had the first pick. So
Speaker 2: I told our people in Seattle that we were going
Speaker 2: to get the best pick in the draft, and that
Speaker 2: was Kevin Durant. I said he could play two three
Speaker 2: positions right now. And so when they had the draft.
Speaker 2: They wouldn't let me or the team doctors sit in
Speaker 2: the room with the owner, you know, I mean they
Speaker 2: you know it was I could and he was upset,
Speaker 2: and I was upset too because I knew he wanted
Speaker 2: to move the franchise and I was not a part
Speaker 2: of it. I wasn't going and I wasn't going to
Speaker 2: Kansas to Oklahoma City. So when they after that, I
Speaker 2: just resigned. I said, I don't want to be part
Speaker 2: of that because that's not fear. I said, We've got
Speaker 2: a legacy in Seattle. If done right, we can make
Speaker 2: this a better franchise. It has a legacy. And the
Speaker 2: little they did a little rebuild job. All they did
Speaker 2: was add some seats. They did a very poor job
Speaker 2: of redoing the coliseum. And so I resigned and didn't
Speaker 2: want ain't part of it, and they moved, and I
Speaker 2: think it was to the detriment. You know, Oklahoma City
Speaker 2: hasn't done anything. I mean, they competed, but they haven't
Speaker 2: done anything. And I think that with our legacy, the son,
Speaker 2: it should have never been sold.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, now you talked about the rebuild. For those who
Speaker 3: don't follow, we had the coliseum, which was built for
Speaker 3: the World's Fair way back in sixty two, I think
Speaker 3: it was, and then they threw some seats in and
Speaker 3: maybe threw in a couple of luxury boxes. But now
Speaker 3: the new joint, the Climate Pledge Arena on the same grounds,
Speaker 3: is absolutely world class. Right, we have the Storm, they're
Speaker 3: doing great, We've got the Kraken, they throw concerts. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's ready for an NBA team. What do you think
Speaker 3: it's going to take to actually make that happen? Because
Speaker 3: I keep hearing the hints. I thought Silver the commissioner
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago kind of more than strongly hinted.
Speaker 3: Then all of a sudden there's a bit of a pullback.
Speaker 3: So I don't really know why there's any more delay
Speaker 3: when clearly there's enough players. The international game is so good,
Speaker 3: we could throw together a couple more teams and not
Speaker 3: dilute the league.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, there's no excuse. Now, the Tideline Wiki
Speaker 2: and his group, they we did the arena. It's called
Speaker 2: Climate Plage Arena. It's beautiful. I've been there to see
Speaker 2: the Crack and play. I saw the Storm play, and
Speaker 2: I was there for an exhibition game between Portland and
Speaker 2: the Clippers and it had well over eighteen thousand people
Speaker 2: and they were going nuts. So I, hey, it's ready,
Speaker 2: there's no excuse, and I'm hoping that it happens soon.
Speaker 3: And can we get you to come back and coach,
Speaker 3: would you be willing to tick that you don't have
Speaker 3: to player?
Speaker 1: Coach? Just would you want to roll? How about that?
Speaker 1: Would you like to be a part in some fashion?
Speaker 2: Definitely? Definitely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good way to end this conversation with
Speaker 3: some Hope we didn't get into politics. We always talked
Speaker 3: that on the side when we see each other. And
Speaker 3: I hope you keep living your best life in Seattle,
Speaker 3: and I hope to see you out there one day soon.
Speaker 2: Okay, Kenny, And it's always pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 2: I enjoy it. Thank you so much, and you stay safe.
Speaker 3: Hey Maine is a production of Me Kenny Maine and Odyssey.
Speaker 3: Our senior producer is Paul Aspen, our executive producer Jody Ebergan,
Speaker 3: and our executive producer for Odyssey is Lina Glazer. If
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