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Speaker 1: I'm George Saveris and I'm Julia Claire.

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Speaker 2: And this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about

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Speaker 2: our cultural fascination with the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we

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Speaker 2: go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today

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Speaker 2: we are talking about the Kennedy's relationship with fashion.

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Speaker 1: Jackie's pink chanel suit and pillbox hat, Jack's defiantly hatless presidency,

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Speaker 1: JFK Junior's nineties baggy pants and backwards baseball caps, and

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Speaker 1: of course are of K Junior weightlifting and rock climbing

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Speaker 1: in only tight.

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Speaker 2: Genes fashion legend. But the type of fashion that Kennedy's

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Speaker 2: are most known for is the kind of worn in

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Speaker 2: khaki driven New England look that you're undoubtedly already picturing.

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Speaker 2: Imagine all the Kennedy boys throwing around the pigskin at

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Speaker 2: the compound. In a word, preppiness.

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Speaker 1: So we thought who better to join us to discuss

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Speaker 1: Kennedy fashion than Avery Truffleman, the host of the popular

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Speaker 1: fashion podcast Articles of Interest, whose twenty twenty two series

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Speaker 1: American Ivy broke down the history of preppy fashion.

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Speaker 2: Avery, Welcome to the United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: I want to start by doing something every writer loves,

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Speaker 2: or just quoting you back to yourself. We found this

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Speaker 2: Vanessa Friedman column from last year was about RFK Junior,

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Speaker 2: who mercifully we won't make you talk about but.

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Speaker 4: Oh please, I love talking about this Olivia Nizzi route.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's true. We are, I will say, we're

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Speaker 2: recording the day that the Olivia Nosy book is coming out,

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Speaker 2: so it is especially relevant.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Bobby, and.

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Speaker 1: You know what, Happy pub day to her. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I have been really enjoying the drama. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: No, I have two and I have the same No.

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Speaker 2: She is and in me I moral way, I know,

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Speaker 2: I can't. I can't get into my complex feelings about her,

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Speaker 2: but I'm both horrified and also like, you go girl,

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Speaker 2: but not really. Don't quote me on that.

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Speaker 3: No, no, it's terrible.

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Speaker 4: It's all awful, But it is just like, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: I think everybody in journalism is like, oh my god,

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Speaker 4: journalism's alive, and well, look at these journalists.

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Speaker 3: It's like battling it out on this giant public forum.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really seems very the twenty twenty five version

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Speaker 2: of people having sort of a back and forth via

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Speaker 2: essay writing on the New York Review of Books or something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like.

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Speaker 4: No one does this anymore. Yes, yeah, I really that's hard.

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Speaker 1: I think it would only be better if everyone involved

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Speaker 1: adopted Transatlantic accents to be talking about this.

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Speaker 4: True. Yeah, yeah, So anyway, he's not off limits for me.

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Speaker 4: I write, get your right now.

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Speaker 2: So Vanessa asked you about Bobby Kennedy Junior's sense of fashion,

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Speaker 2: and you said he is caused playing as Kennedy. This

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Speaker 2: is a quote he's constantly that Kennedy said, Avery Truffleman.

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Speaker 2: And then this is not your quote. This is Vanessa's editorializing,

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Speaker 2: which says doubling down on a manner of dress that

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Speaker 2: is deeply associated with the Kennedy name, even though that

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Speaker 2: association itself came from its own form of wasp cosplay.

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Speaker 2: At this point it has become a very powerful tool.

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Speaker 2: So I think that's a great place to begin, because

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask, when you hear Kennedy fashion, what

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Speaker 2: do you think? What to you is the Kennedy look.

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Speaker 4: Well, there's like a platonic ideal, you know, the Camelot

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Speaker 4: Kennedy look. But then there have been so many other

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Speaker 4: Kennedy's that look evolves and grows on its own.

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Speaker 3: In a word, it's preppy.

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Speaker 4: But really, and this is my whole hill that I'll

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Speaker 4: die on, is like preppy clothes have become classic clothes.

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Speaker 4: Like when we call something timeless or classic, we're talking

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Speaker 4: about preppy clothes usually, which is kind of interesting. And

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Speaker 4: so I think even when we look at Carolyn Bissett

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Speaker 4: Kennedy and people are like, oh my god, it's so classic,

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Speaker 4: so pare down, so elegant, it's just kind of like

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Speaker 4: a nineties version of preppy clothes, even though it is

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Speaker 4: evolving and it is changing and it is different. So

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Speaker 4: I'd say those classic timeless but ultimately preppy.

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Speaker 1: You have to almost it's a bit of surprise in

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Speaker 1: your voice that the preppie style has become associated with

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Speaker 1: with timelessness and classic style.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean I personally, and that's the fart because

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Speaker 4: I did a whole series about preppi clothes, so I

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Speaker 4: spent like a lot of years of my life dedicating

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Speaker 4: myself to studying this.

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Speaker 3: But I do think once you.

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Speaker 4: Sort of examine where preppi clothes come from and all

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Speaker 4: the different evolutions they've gone through, It is kind of

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Speaker 4: weird because this is clothing that really should have gone

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Speaker 4: out of style a long time ago. It's very interesting

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Speaker 4: that when you look at images of someone wearing whatever,

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Speaker 4: a button down shirt and khakis in the.

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Speaker 3: Forties, that's usually not how fashion works.

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Speaker 4: So it doesn't just stay and unlike other fashion trends,

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Speaker 4: it's just sort of grown and grown and grown, and

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Speaker 4: more and more people started wearing it. And you'd think

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Speaker 4: at some point that would make it uncool or like

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Speaker 4: take the meaning from it, and it didn't. You know,

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Speaker 4: for some reason, it still has this power. It still

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Speaker 4: has this appeal, and it truly should have gone away

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Speaker 4: at least in the sixties, but it will not die.

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Speaker 4: It simply will not die, this old, antiquated look that

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Speaker 4: like really almost doesn't fit our lifestyles anymore.

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Speaker 2: And the sixties is when obviously the JFK was president

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Speaker 2: and when Jackie was in the White House, they could it.

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Speaker 2: There's something about preppiness. And you know, I'm saying this

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Speaker 2: purely as a hobbyist than not as a fashion expert,

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Speaker 2: that it's almost so uncool that when a cool person

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Speaker 2: takes on the preppy look, it almost makes them cooler.

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Speaker 2: Because they can pull.

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Speaker 4: It off one hundred percent, Like look at Backpack Wrap

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Speaker 4: and like Kanye and Vampire Weekend, that whole era of

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Speaker 4: the extremely cool people wearing these dorky clothes, Miles Davis

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Speaker 4: wearing a seersucker suit.

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Speaker 3: It somehow does not get cooler than that.

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Speaker 2: And I think not to say that JFK was, you know,

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Speaker 2: the epitome of cool, but I do think the point

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Speaker 2: that you slash shinessa Friedman are making, that they are

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Speaker 2: doing a form of wasp cosplay is sort of part

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Speaker 2: of that. It's like part of the fascination is that,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, they're Catholic and Irish, yet they're addressed

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Speaker 2: like wasps.

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Speaker 4: Well, also, you have to consider the context again, like

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Speaker 4: the sixties, PREPPI clothing has been or you know, before

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Speaker 4: it was preppy, it was called ivy and it was

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Speaker 4: around for a long long time, basically the twentieth century,

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Speaker 4: and it seemed as though by the sixties it was like, okay, enough,

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Speaker 4: this was the explosion of youth culture, the explosion of

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Speaker 4: fashion culture, the explosion of advertising. It was like, the

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Speaker 4: clothes are not really viable anymore, especially because ivy style

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Speaker 4: was considered this collegiate look. And when you think about it,

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Speaker 4: like now we think of preppy clothes as semi formal,

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Speaker 4: but at the time it came from doing sports and

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Speaker 4: like being on college campuses and so you'd wear like

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Speaker 4: your tennis shirt to go to whatever you're dining club

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Speaker 4: and go to class and you'd wear sneaker. It was

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Speaker 4: like this extremely casual style that was like built on

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Speaker 4: American college campuses. And this was so massive, especially after

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Speaker 4: World War Two, because you get this new creature called

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Speaker 4: a teenager, which kind of didn't exist anymore. You were

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Speaker 4: like a child and then you were an adult and

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Speaker 4: you went to war or you got a job, and

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Speaker 4: suddenly there's this new generation that these people who don't

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Speaker 4: have to go to war, they don't have to get

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Speaker 4: a job, but they're young. But what do you do

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Speaker 4: and how do you dress for this? And so sort

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Speaker 4: of de facto, this college look became. There were pop

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Speaker 4: up stores all over the United States called like Ivy

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Speaker 4: shops and like Ivy style shops, and this is where

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Speaker 4: you would dress like a teen you know, this is

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Speaker 4: like the teenage look. And then so in the sixties

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Speaker 4: there's obviously a way new teenage look.

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Speaker 3: The teenager is.

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Speaker 4: Established youth is they're not just trying to look young,

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Speaker 4: they're trying to actually say something. But the funny thing is,

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Speaker 4: especially in the seventies, you start to see this nostalgia.

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Speaker 3: For preppy clothes.

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Speaker 4: This is like, you know, in the seventies, that's when

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Speaker 4: all these movies that take place in the fifties come out,

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Speaker 4: like American Graffiti and like Greece and everyone being like,

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Speaker 4: oh man, remember back when the world was simple, before

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Speaker 4: it was so complicated. So yeah, not only were the

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Speaker 4: Kennedys being like, oh my god, he's a Catholic, but

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Speaker 4: he represents this simpler time, this idealism before the world

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Speaker 4: got so complicated and everyone started wearing like fringe and

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Speaker 4: all these crazy patterns and everyone was gender bending. And

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Speaker 4: you know, it's funny because you kind of see Zoron

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Speaker 4: Mamdani doing a version of it, wearing just his kind

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Speaker 4: of shitty suit supplies suit. Ashley Fetters Maloy in The

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Speaker 4: Washington Post had this great piece that was like, you know,

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Speaker 4: he's dressing like every millennial guy who needed a suit

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Speaker 4: ten years ago.

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Speaker 3: Completely yeah, which is comforting.

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Speaker 4: No one's intimidating by a friend of mine, just saw

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Speaker 4: Zoran in a museum off duty, and that guy is stylish,

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Speaker 4: Like he does not dress like that on his he's

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Speaker 4: like wearing a little baseball cap and like a cool jack.

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Speaker 3: Like he is very stylish. He knows well, you see

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Speaker 3: his wedding photos.

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Speaker 1: So he's wearing this beautiful scarf. And that is a

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Speaker 1: guy who knows how to dress.

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Speaker 3: He knows how dress, he knows style and his and

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Speaker 3: if he does.

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Speaker 2: Then his wife certainly doesn't even if even if he didn't,

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Speaker 2: she would help him. It is such a conscious choice

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Speaker 2: that somehow does work. And like he at every point

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Speaker 2: he had the opportunity to like quote unquote upgrade, and

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Speaker 2: he chose not to. And I think that was so smart.

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Speaker 4: It's so smart, and it makes people comfortable, and it's

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Speaker 4: just a little outdated.

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Speaker 3: And so that's the thing.

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Speaker 4: I also think that Kennedy look was a little outdated.

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Speaker 4: It was kind of the version of the Zoran look

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Speaker 4: at the time. It made people really comfortable.

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Speaker 1: I also think that for both of them, they were

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Speaker 1: both so young when they when they came into political

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Speaker 1: prominence that it scared a lot of older people. And

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Speaker 1: what makes older people more comfortable than seeing a young

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Speaker 1: in a suit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a sort of fuddy deddy suit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They're like, oh man, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Wow, this guy can't be radical. He's wearing a kind

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Speaker 1: of shitty suit.

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Speaker 4: One hundred percent, one hundred percent. And I think that's

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Speaker 4: why this uniform, even though again this preppy logic, it

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Speaker 4: defies everything because it's everywhere. You can buy a version

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Speaker 4: of these clothes at.

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Speaker 3: Coals or something. They don't mean anything anymore, and yet

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Speaker 3: they do.

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Speaker 4: All George Santos had to do was dress a little

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Speaker 4: preppy and people were like, oh, I should elected this man.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's it's crazy what people will do, how how differently

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Speaker 4: they'll treat someone in a collared shirt.

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Speaker 1: Totally, And I just want to say I didn't think

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Speaker 1: of Zoran suits as shitty until this very conversation.

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Speaker 3: So nice, nice, but there's something about the cut.

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Speaker 2: And also sometimes his ties will just be like a

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Speaker 2: little bit thinner than it was cool, you know in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Maybe this is this is like my millennial brain. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: he looks great. I think he looks very sophisticated.

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Speaker 2: I mean he looks like will you go home for

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Speaker 2: Thanksgiving or something? And a son that all the other

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Speaker 2: moms are like, God, I wish he was my son. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's doing really well for himself.

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Speaker 3: He's not looking stylish.

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Speaker 4: You never look at You wouldn't see that guy on

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Speaker 4: the street and be like whoof wow.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe this is how divorced I am from

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Speaker 1: style because I again, I think he is iconic.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean he's also so cute.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after

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Speaker 1: this break, and we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: I do want to say, you know, in terms of

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Speaker 2: JFK's fashion at the time, one of the sort of

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Speaker 2: funny things we came across when we were doing research

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Speaker 2: for this episode is every are you aware of hat Gate,

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Speaker 2: which is that JFK was accused of not wearing a

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Speaker 2: hat during his inauguration, which, oh yes, apparently everyone wore

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Speaker 2: a silk top hat during their inauguration for one hundred

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Speaker 2: years and JFK in fact also wore one, but there

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Speaker 2: was one photo where he had taken it off, and

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Speaker 2: then that photo became so popular that people accused him

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Speaker 2: of not wearing a top hat. So that was where

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Speaker 2: the fashion conversation was at the time.

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Speaker 3: Did they call it hatgate at the time.

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Speaker 2: That would be amazing if they predicted watergate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: No, I had heard about that, but I didn't realize

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Speaker 4: that he did actually wear the top hat.

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Speaker 3: That's the greatest for a buttle.

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Speaker 1: It's one of these things that's like very easily demunked.

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Speaker 1: There are numerous pictures of him at his inauguration wearing

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Speaker 1: said top hat. And it's funny because not only was

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Speaker 1: he accused of not wearing a hat to his inauguration,

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Speaker 1: he was then accused of basically ruining the hat industry,

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Speaker 1: like he didn't wear a top hat to his inauguration

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Speaker 1: and therefore all men stopped wearing hats.

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Speaker 4: Well, okay, I will say that in general he was

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Speaker 4: pretty hatless compared to his contemporaries. Beyond the inauguration, he

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Speaker 4: was a pretty hatless guy.

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Speaker 1: And there's a book called Hatless Jack.

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Speaker 3: Oh really well yeah.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So my pet theory is this is everything to

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Speaker 4: do with the rise of sunglasses, because hats and sunglasses

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Speaker 4: used to serve really similar purposes. And he's kind of

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Speaker 4: the first president you see in shades a lot, which

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Speaker 4: also I think helped contribute to his cool imagery and

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Speaker 4: I think it's also part of why the hat died, Yes,

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Speaker 4: because sunglasses really became prominent and accepted because you used

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Speaker 4: to just cover your eyes with your brim from the sun.

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Speaker 4: But also a big part of sunglasses were to like

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Speaker 4: kind of especially if you lived in a city, carve

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Speaker 4: out space from other people, you know, to just like

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Speaker 4: pull your hat down and move through the crowds of

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Speaker 4: people on Madison Avenue.

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Speaker 3: And it just became a wider part of culture.

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Speaker 4: Like you see people just wearing sunglasses inside on the

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Speaker 4: train just to like carve out a little space for themselves.

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Speaker 4: And he was sort of living in that moment when

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Speaker 4: sunglasses became ascendant. So I think that's part of it too.

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Speaker 2: I had never considered the rise of sunglasses as a

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Speaker 2: real breaking point between old and contemporary. Like if you

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Speaker 2: see any sort of historical you're in sunglasses, that just

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Speaker 2: makes them seem more modern. And it is total with Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: He is the first president. I think of his like,

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Speaker 2: obviously I was not alive them, but I think of

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Speaker 2: him as like, Okay, that's the era that the general

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Speaker 2: era in which I was alive is the post war

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Speaker 2: sixties and the onwards era.

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Speaker 4: One hundred percent and it totally adds to that youthful

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Speaker 4: Hollywood glamorous and it's more outdoorsy. You know, it's more

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Speaker 4: active to wear sunglasses than to wear a hat when

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Speaker 4: you're like rolling up your sleeves and playing football with

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Speaker 4: the whole Kennedy family and all those like famous images,

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Speaker 4: you know, or sailing. That's the other thing is the

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Speaker 4: preppy clothing movement is also I think the Kennedy's biggest

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Speaker 4: contributions were in they're like off hour clothes, you know

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Speaker 4: when you see them like sailing and playing football and

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Speaker 4: wearing these preppy clothes that are really collegiate looking, like

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Speaker 4: they look really young and they look really all American

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Speaker 4: and they're just poster children.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's Kennedy the advent of leisure wear, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's where you know, we have Obviously, there have

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Speaker 1: been so many conversations in the last few years about

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Speaker 1: the quiet luxury look, which is in many ways just

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Speaker 1: this look that we're describing totally. Yeah, but it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like do you have the money to do leisure activities? Yes?

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Speaker 1: And also a lot of these clothes are very lived

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Speaker 1: in and there was a big conversation a few years

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Speaker 1: ago when Knives Out came out that the very well

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Speaker 1: constructed sweater that Chris Evans is wearing in it, it

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Speaker 1: has a lot of moth holes and it's very worn.

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Speaker 1: And some people initially thought that that was unrealistic, that

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Speaker 1: someone who had that much money would have a sweater

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Speaker 1: with a lot of holes in it, when in fact

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Speaker 1: it's exactly right.

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Speaker 3: It's exactly right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. And I mean if you read, you know, the

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Speaker 4: seminal book on this, Lisa Birnbachs the Preppy Handbook, it says,

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Speaker 4: your khakis are supposed to be dirty and like ragged

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Speaker 4: at the edges. Everything's supposed to be a little worn

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Speaker 4: in And it's such a commentary on whiteness. Right, it's

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Speaker 4: like supposed to inherit these clothes from your dad, and

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Speaker 4: there's so well made.

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Speaker 3: And it's also this not.

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Speaker 4: Caringness, you know, it's like you have nothing to prove.

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Speaker 3: The world is yours.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Like your sweater is very you know, it's

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Speaker 2: it's the sweater that's in the closet of the Hampton's home,

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Speaker 2: of the Nantucket Home. Yes, exactly, Like it's like, oh, right,

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Speaker 2: didn't this belong to Uncle Robert and then you just

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Speaker 2: put it on.

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Speaker 4: And that is the huge difference, I think between the

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Speaker 4: way that this style was repurposed in hip hop and

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Speaker 4: especially in black fashion, especially when you see like Pharrell,

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Speaker 4: it's all about looking clean and looking like fresh and

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Speaker 4: looking new, and that is where racial dynamics come in,

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Speaker 4: and it's it's really fascinating. So the shabbiness is a whiteness,

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Speaker 4: like taking the world for granted.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting. But you say that because there's been

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Speaker 1: a big discourse online about the hygiene Olympics or something

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Speaker 1: like that, some TikTok creators and people on Instagram talking

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Speaker 1: about their hygiene routines, and then it's very often white

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Speaker 1: creators being like this is so performative, this is so crazy,

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Speaker 1: when in fact, this is the kind of the standard

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Speaker 1: to which Black Americans have been held for generations, is

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Speaker 1: that they had to be seen as neater and cleaner,

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Speaker 1: and you know what is now considered like performative hygiene

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Speaker 1: was so deeply intertwined with respectability and that their ability

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Speaker 1: to integrate into a white supremacist world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fashion version of respectability politics, and especially

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Speaker 2: when you look at it in terms of presidents. Literally

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Speaker 2: JFK had truly like fifteen STIs at every point he

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Speaker 2: was annoying. This is like something we run into literally

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Speaker 2: doing historical research for this podcast. I'm not making this up.

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Speaker 2: And then now Trump is on his third marriage and

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Speaker 2: has like a blended STAMI and it does doesn't affect

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Speaker 2: their respectability, whereas, of course, yes, exactly if Obama so

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Speaker 2: much as you know, I don't know, I guess yeah,

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Speaker 2: or wore you know, God forbid a beige suit not

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Speaker 2: to be that say that, you know, bring up the

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Speaker 2: most cliche example, Yeah, the tan suit. Thank you. I

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Speaker 2: want to talk. I want to sort of bring it

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Speaker 2: into Jackie a little bit, because I think you're absolutely

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Speaker 2: right that the Kennedy fashion ethos is very sort of

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Speaker 2: like effortless, and we're throwing around the pigs Kid, then

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Speaker 2: we're throwing around of Frisbee, and it's very just the

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Speaker 2: compound or on the compound, it's very lived in, whereas Jackie,

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Speaker 2: the effort was clearly visible, like she was she clearly

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Speaker 2: was very passionate about fashion. She liked French designers, and

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Speaker 2: she was wearing these super unique bright color looks, and

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Speaker 2: I think that was almost in contrast with the Kennedy

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Speaker 2: vibe as someone who studies fashion for a living, Like,

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Speaker 2: where does Jackie face into American fashion historically?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean that's the funny thing is she kind of

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Speaker 4: provided this new version of America that was so worldly

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Speaker 4: and cared about, so cosmopolitan, you know, and to be

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Speaker 4: so literate in all these designers and to enjoy them.

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Speaker 4: And it is a move that is a little aristocratic.

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Speaker 4: It's very different than how Americans are quote unquote supposed

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Speaker 4: to be. It's almost like this Edith Wharton throwback, you know,

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Speaker 4: the God of France to get my catur clothes and

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Speaker 4: then come back. And I do think she's like balanced

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Speaker 4: out by the like all American preppiness of her husband,

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Speaker 4: but it gives her this permission to be the cosmopolitan European.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: She was a writer, she spoke French. She was kind

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Speaker 4: of this queenly figure that she was able to be.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: The interesting thing is.

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Speaker 4: I just want to talk about like Brooks Brothers really quickly,

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Speaker 4: because Brooks Brothers is super duper important to talking about,

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Speaker 4: like how American presidents dress and how Americans dress and

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Speaker 4: the origins of this preppy look today Brooks Brothers is

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Speaker 4: the oldest clothing company in the United States, which is incredible,

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Speaker 4: Like they weren't the first, but they are the one

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Speaker 4: that has lasted until today, which is extraordinary. Their history

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Speaker 4: is out of control. Like they were among the first

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Speaker 4: generation of clothing companies that invented ready to wear clothes. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's an American invention that you could buy clothes off

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Speaker 4: the rack, like he used to buy cloth and you'd

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Speaker 4: bring it to your tailor and be like, make me

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Speaker 4: a suit.

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Speaker 3: Or probably like bring in to your wife and be like,

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Speaker 3: make me a suit.

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Speaker 4: But Brooks Brothers and many other companies, but Brooks Brothers

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Speaker 4: was really like among this cohort. They were like, what

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Speaker 4: if we just made the shirts already in a bunch

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Speaker 4: of different sizes. And it totally changed the shopping experience

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Speaker 4: because now people could try things on, you know, and

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Speaker 4: it turned shopping into this activity that was this third space.

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Speaker 4: You know, you could walk into these stores. It wasn't

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Speaker 4: like a chort like going to buy you know, buying fabric.

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Speaker 4: Yous to be like, oh I gotta go buy milk.

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Speaker 4: Now it became this like pleasurable thing you could like

417
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Speaker 4: try on these skins, and they were already there and

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Speaker 4: they were already made, but they only existed for men.

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Speaker 4: They were no ready to wear clothes for women, and

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Speaker 4: it was considered a thing like, men, you are too

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Speaker 4: busy to have to think about your clothes. We've already

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Speaker 4: thought about it for you. Just come into our store

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Speaker 4: and you can buy your clothes already.

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Speaker 3: Women were shit out of luck.

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Speaker 4: They had to keep up with the trends themselves, you know,

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Speaker 4: they had to usually make their own clothes or get

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Speaker 4: their own clothes made, and it fed into this idea

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Speaker 4: that like, oh, women are so obsessed with fashion because

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Speaker 4: they kind of had to be. They didn't have an option,

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Speaker 4: They didn't have somewhere to just opt out and have

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Speaker 4: someone think about it for them. But for Brooks Brothers,

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Speaker 4: it was this really it was considered this all American

433
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Speaker 4: invention because these suits were relatively affordable. At one point,

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Speaker 4: Brooks Brothers had two locations. One was like downtown by

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Speaker 4: the docks for like the workers, and one was sort

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00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 4: of uptown and fancy, and everybody was kind of wearing

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00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 4: these ready to made suits, and it was this shocking thing.

438
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 4: Alexander Detoukvil was like, this is amazing. You kind of

439
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 4: can't tell who's rich and who's poor in the society.

440
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 4: It's an extremely middle class society. Everybody is just walking

441
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 4: around in these suits. You know. Back in Europe, it

442
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 4: was like the kings wore jewels and the paupers wore rags,

443
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,719
Speaker 4: and in America we all just sort of wear suits.

444
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 4: And this was the whole point of democracy, right, like,

445
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 4: we want to blend in, we want to be the medium,

446
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 4: we want to rely on each other. And so it

447
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 4: was seen as this point of pride that like the

448
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 4: president wore Brooks Brothers. You know, the president also blended

449
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 4: and he wasn't a king, he was just one of

450
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 4: the people. And Okay, Brooks Brothers wasn't around to clothe

451
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 4: the first four presidents, but they've clothed all the other

452
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 4: presidents since, with the exception of two. Do you want

453
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 4: to guess who they were? This is just a fun fact.

454
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 4: The two presidents who didn't wear Brooks Brothers. Are they

455
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 4: older or more contemporary? I mean, I assume Trump did

456
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 4: not wear Brooks Brothers. He does. There's a picture of

457
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 4: Trumps wearing Brooks brother suits standing next to each other.

458
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 3: Wow, different ties.

459
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean Reagan, Yeah, Reagan was one because he

460
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 4: was like a Hollywood star and all the suits custom made.

461
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 3: It was too correct me.

462
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 2: If I'm wrong, I'm going. But so we read this

463
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: Women's Wear Daily Daily article that was talking about how

464
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: Brooks Brothers at the time designed a suit with a

465
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: slimmer outline, and that's the one that was then sort

466
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: of popularized by JFK. But I feel like, then to

467
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: your point about fashion, especially men's fashion becoming democratized, from

468
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: what I understand, there was sort of a response to that,

469
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 2: where then with the advent of European and even Japanese

470
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: fashion coming to America, then men did start caring about

471
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,360
Speaker 2: fashion a little later, like in the eighties and nineties,

472
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: and then it became lame to wear Brooks Brothers. So

473
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: it makes sense to me that Reagan during his era

474
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: would on something more interesting.

475
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 4: Reagan wanted something more interesting, and the other one who

476
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 4: didn't want to wear it because he thought it was

477
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 4: too fancy was Carter. Makes sense, where are these old

478
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 4: things that I found somewhere? But it was all just

479
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 4: to say, there is this president of the president. Even

480
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 4: that's the thing. Even Donald Trump, for all his pomp

481
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 4: and circumstance, where is this kind of like plain looking suit,

482
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 4: And so it's really up to like the wife to

483
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 4: show the style. And so Jackie was the one who

484
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 4: was allowed to be, you know, Milania is the one

485
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 4: who's allowed to be like dripping in diamonds.

486
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: And thank God for that, and thank God for that

487
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: fabulous I love.

488
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: And we're also actually we're recording this during the week's

489
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: long promo cycle of Michelle Obama's and you both heard

490
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: specifically about her fashion looks exactly. But I wonder if

491
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: you have an insight into like, to me, Jackie is

492
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: the one that ushered in the era of like the

493
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 2: fashionable first lady or even the press hang it to

494
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 2: And I might be completely wrong, but from what I remember,

495
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: like watching movies and reading things growing up, I know

496
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: of Jackie as a fashion icon. And then since then

497
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: we have commented on how first ladies dressed. Do you

498
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: have any any concept of what first lady fashion and

499
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 2: first lady fashion expectations were like pre Jackie and post Jackie?

500
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 4: I mean not really. But the other thing is that

501
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 4: media was so different, true, you know what I mean.

502
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 4: It's like there were images of her everywhere and she

503
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 4: was so beautiful and she was so young. And while

504
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 4: I'm sure there were like whatever Dagero types of different

505
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 4: first ladies before.

506
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: It's just like a different order of magnitude.

507
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 4: You know the fact that she was like on TV,

508
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 4: like talking and moving and at thirty one. You know,

509
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 4: that's the other thing is you don't have to dress

510
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 4: that well to look good at thirty one compared to

511
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 4: other first ladies, you know what I mean, She just

512
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 4: like naturally looked great in everything. So I think that

513
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 4: was the other thing is like the media was really different,

514
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 4: a lot of different attitude. They wanted to relate to her.

515
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: Right and it was you know, JFK's inauguration was the

516
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: first to be televised, and that was another big change.

517
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: And it wasn't just that you were seeing photos of

518
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: the first Lady. You were seeing how she moved in

519
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: the clothes as well. And she has such a natural elegance.

520
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: She has this very willowy figure and clothes look incredible

521
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: on her, and she was also wearing to your point

522
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: about the kind of royal aspect to her, she was

523
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: as approachable as JFK's style was, her style was almost

524
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: a little bit less approachable because once she had this

525
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: like modelesque body, and she was famous for the shift

526
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: dresses and all of these kind of figure hugging clothes

527
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: that were made by houses like Chanel and Christian Dior

528
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: and then later Halston and things like that. And yeah,

529
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: there was something really aspirational and unapproachable about her style

530
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: that every American woman at the time really aspired to.

531
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, to your point, she was also young and

532
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: wasn't wearing these for like matronly clothes of first ladies

533
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: past and then the ones that succeeded her.

534
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like they were just a perfect one

535
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 4: two punch. He was the college boy and she was

536
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 4: the refined, you know, international queen, and they both helped

537
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 4: get taken seriously by different demographics. It was this interesting

538
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 4: sort of like divide conquer thing. But of course it's like,

539
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 4: I don't know, I wonder what my grandma thought of that.

540
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 4: I wish I could ask someone who was like really

541
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 4: considering voting for them what they thought. I was just

542
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 4: watching mad Men for the first time, and I don't

543
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 4: know if you remember this or if you've seen it,

544
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 4: but they were like, oh, no, one's going to vote

545
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 4: for her. They're going to hate her. They're going to

546
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 4: be jealous of her. And so I'm sure a lot

547
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 4: of people thought that her look was like uppity. I'm

548
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 4: sure completely say to everybody.

549
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for people that were viewing it in

550
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 2: a more optimistic lens, that was sort of aspirational. And

551
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: then for people who were already prime to hate her,

552
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: it was like, why is she in a costume? You know,

553
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 2: when there's inequality?

554
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

555
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: And to go back to the sunglasses of it all,

556
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: she became so famous for her oversized movie star sunglasses,

557
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: and again, it really does contrast the rest of the

558
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: Kennedy style, which is very lived in. Her clothing was

559
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: always so pristine, so fitted, not a wrinkled to be seen.

560
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: Because I had always thought of the two styles as

561
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: very complimentary maybe, and I guess they are, But it's

562
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: interesting that hers really was very individualistic.

563
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

564
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 4: Well, Preppy's style is very much a male style, even

565
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 4: though there are like female versions of it, it's really

566
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 4: men's wear by and large, and so she was kind

567
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 4: of improvising her own version of it.

568
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 3: Like if preppy clothes are sort of.

569
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 4: The American version of aristocracy, she kind of had no

570
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 4: choice but to go, like aristocracy, aristocracy kind of go

571
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 4: like europeanmpletely.

572
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break, stay with us,

573
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: and we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

574
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 2: Do you have any Jackie looks? Not to now become,

575
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: you know, a gay fashion podcast, but do you have

576
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: any like Jackie looks that are sort of iconic? Do

577
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: you like for me? We talked about the Parker Posy

578
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: movie The House of Yes the other week and the

579
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: cover of that movie at Blockbuster is I think where

580
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: I first saw like the pink channel suit and the

581
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 2: pillbox hat. But did you grow up thinking, I don't know,

582
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: as someone who had a budding interest in fashion, did

583
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: you think Jackie was cool or did you think she

584
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: was lame?

585
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 4: Ah, it's just so not like, you know, that's like

586
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 4: a cost you like, yeah, you see it and you're like,

587
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 4: that's chic, But it's not like I'm going to go

588
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 4: buy a pillbox hat and wear it.

589
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 3: Which is also the funny thing, right.

590
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 4: We talked about how like jack was so known for

591
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 4: being hatless, and she's so known for her hats. They're

592
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: so like her style is not really one for the ages.

593
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 4: I mean, her vibe is maybe one for the ages.

594
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 4: But it's fun to look at pictures of it, but

595
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 4: it doesn't really feel applicable. There's never anything that I'm like, oh,

596
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 4: I'm gonna use that.

597
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is funny that it could so easily make

598
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: a sort of nostalgic comeback, or like you could imagine

599
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: a world in which just one little thing went a

600
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: little left field and suddenly Zorro was making knockoff pillbox hats.

601
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: But it just has never happened. Like, of all the

602
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 2: things that could come back in a nostalgic way, that

603
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: really is stuck in the sixties.

604
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, we just live a life that isn't conducive to

605
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 4: hats anymore. I mean, look, we're all wearing headphones. Can

606
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 4: you imagine we're podcasting, everybody's podcasting, how anyone's supposed to

607
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 4: wear a hat? But I mean it's just a different Yeah,

608
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 4: it's just a different world.

609
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: For listeners at home. Obviously you can't see me, but

610
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: I am wearing a pilpbox hat right now and.

611
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: It looks fabulous original.

612
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: Thank you.

613
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: Because we mentioned JFK's lack of a hat, I do

614
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: want to say there's another misremembered part of the inauguration.

615
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: That has to do with Jackie, which is that people

616
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: remember her in this baby blue skirtsuit and in fact

617
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: it was more of a tan color. And there was

618
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: one Life magazine photograph that was sort of color corrected

619
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: in a specific way that made it look like blue,

620
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: but in the same issue, like in the same package

621
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: you see other photographs, and she's wearing sort of like

622
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: a beige.

623
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 4: Well that's so interesting because Malania had that. Yeah, that

624
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 4: was like she's being Jackie. Oh and it's all a lie.

625
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it is. It really is the one photo

626
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: that was popularized of her, and color photography was also

627
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: like still new at the time, and so people took

628
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: it and ran with it. But yes, it was in

629
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: fact sort of a neutral like gray beige. Wow color funny. Yeah.

630
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: That suit is currently housed at the JFK Presidential Library,

631
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: and a lot of people are shocked when they see

632
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: it in person because it's kind of iconically remembered as

633
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: a Robin's egg blue and it's not.

634
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 4: Wow.

635
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

636
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: I think the thing you said about Preppe style being

637
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: predominantly men's wear is really interesting.

638
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

639
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 4: I think even when it's supposed to be worn by women,

640
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 4: like even in the prepim book, they talk about it

641
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 4: being like a very androgenal style. And when I talk

642
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 4: to women who were sort of encountering the preppy look

643
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 4: for the first time at women's colleges, it was kind

644
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 4: of amazing because it was this way that they were

645
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 4: able to dress practically. You know, these were schools where

646
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 4: you had to like check into your dormitory before eight

647
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 4: pm and you wear pantyhose on Sunday, like.

648
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 3: A horrible a horrible world.

649
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 4: But with the invention of the ivy look, they were like,

650
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 4: oh my god, we could wear sinkers. And one woman

651
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 4: I talked to you was like, let me send you

652
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 4: a picture of me and my friends, and it's wild

653
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 4: because they just look like they're in boys. I mean,

654
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 4: now they just look like they're and what we would

655
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 4: call clothes. But at the time it really must have

656
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 4: looked like drag. It must have looked really shocking. They

657
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 4: were just wearing. You know, Brooks Brothers made a version

658
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 4: of their classic button down Oxford in pink because women

659
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 4: used to go in and they go to the kids

660
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 4: section and buy stuff. And when they made a version

661
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 4: with like a Peter Pan caller that came in pink

662
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 4: for women.

663
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 3: Everybody lost it.

664
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 4: It was like on the cover of Life magazine and

665
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 4: the cover of Vogue magazine, it was like, finally, you know,

666
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 4: something for women. But it was always supposed to be

667
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 4: like borrowed from the boys, was the look of preppy.

668
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 4: And even though there are versions as like you know,

669
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 4: there's like a Lily Pulitzer version, and there are versions

670
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 4: that are a little bit more like southern Ktillion Codd,

671
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 4: I think Jackie really had to like find her own

672
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 4: way to be feminine within this framework.

673
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 2: Speaking of women that look amazing and button down shirts,

674
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 2: I thought we could sort of transition to the next

675
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 2: generation to talk a little bit about JFK. Junior and

676
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: Carolyn Bessett And I want to get into the intersection

677
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: of preppiness on the one hand, and sorry to use

678
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: this TikTok to arm, but quiet luxury on the other

679
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: How would you situate JFK. Junior and Carolyn Bassett within

680
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: the general like fashion environment and fashion ecosystem of the nineties.

681
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 4: Well, they are very nineties. They're like extremely nineties. Because

682
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 4: didn't she work.

683
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she was sort of discussed she worked to

684
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: Calvin Klein. Then he put her in charge of their

685
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 2: VIP program, and so then she would be doing like

686
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: fittings for VIP clients. And that's as she met John John,

687
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: who I know were not you know, no one actually

688
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: called him John John according to the Real Housewives. But yeah,

689
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: she worked at Calvin Klein. But I feel like she

690
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 2: had one part of her fashion inspiration was like classic

691
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: American sports where and then the other part was like

692
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: super cool Japanese simiyaki.

693
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I feel.

694
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: Like it's almost the combination of those two that like

695
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: produces the kind of quiet luxury, like the Roe vibe

696
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: that we now think of as cool.

697
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 4: Well, I do think it's like the introduction of black

698
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 4: is really important. You know, the idea of wearing stuff

699
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 4: that is black is not very preppy on the surface.

700
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 3: Funerals and black is for funerals.

701
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 4: And then that was the whole thing, you know, in

702
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 4: the eighties when Yogammoto burst on the scene making clothes

703
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 4: that were like almost entirely in black, some were white,

704
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 4: but mostly black, and Kubo emerged as what was the.

705
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 3: Horrible racist thing? They were calling it, like here's chic,

706
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 3: like it was supposed to be.

707
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 4: And I believe at the time, the people who wore

708
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 4: Cone Garson in Japan were known as the Crows because

709
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 4: they were all just like wearing black. So I do

710
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 4: think the introduction of international Japanese style really made black

711
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 4: a very chic thing, because it was very shocking at

712
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 4: first when they emerged with these like really kind of violent, dark,

713
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 4: morose runway shows, you know, as opposed to the French

714
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 4: or the Italians who were having these like toarly big skirts,

715
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 4: and then the jap and He's had like holes in

716
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 4: their in their garments. So I think that's the biggest

717
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 4: thing is that a lot of the styles really ultimately

718
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 4: look the same. And the other thing is that Carolyn

719
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 4: is leaning into this borrowed from the boys. Look, her

720
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 4: clothes do look oversize, they look like men's wear. She's

721
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 4: not trying to look. If she does wear a dress,

722
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 4: it's like a very simple dress. It's not very femme

723
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 4: at all, which is very preppy. But I do think

724
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 4: the introduction of black is the big thing that she does.

725
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: And to your point that you said earlier about what

726
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: we now conceive of as preppie style should have gone

727
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: out of style many times throughout the last one hundred years,

728
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,760
Speaker 1: and hasn't. I think what you see with JFK Junior

729
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: and Carolyn Bassett in the nineties, especially JFK Jr. Is

730
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: kind of almost an injection of a little bit of

731
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: grunge into preppie style, which is so interesting because grunge

732
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: was like the antithesis of preppie style. The only similarity

733
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: is the androgyny of it. I think it was like

734
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: men and women were wearing who were you know, had

735
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: that grunge aesthetic. We're wearing the same sorts of clothes.

736
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: But you see JFK Junior, a lot of his silhouettes

737
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: were less fitted than his father's, and I don't know,

738
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: there were just certain I look at pictures of him

739
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: and there were it was like grunge and street wear, yeah,

740
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: mixed to with preppy style. And I thought that was

741
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: so interesting.

742
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I think you're really hitting on this thing

743
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 4: that we were getting at earlier with our like zoron

744
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 4: JFK discussion is like, these are people who are not

745
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 4: necessarily trying to get votes in their immediate future, and

746
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 4: they are following trends. You know, they are dressing friendly,

747
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 4: they are following a little bit of grunge a little

748
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 4: bit of hip hop, like a little They are moving

749
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,959
Speaker 4: with the styles of their time, even while keeping sort

750
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 4: of whatever the family Kennedy look, than not trying to

751
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 4: look outdated in the way that might have been more

752
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 4: politically savvy.

753
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after

754
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 2: this break, and we're back with United States of Kennedy.

755
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: One of the things that I keep coming back to

756
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: that is so interesting about preppy style is that in

757
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: every generation in which it has been popular, it is

758
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: kind of a nostalgic choice, and it harkens back to

759
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: the greatest generation, whatever you think that is. In the sixties,

760
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: as you were saying, it should have died out because

761
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: of the counterculture and youth culture, and then in the

762
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties it became a nostalgic reach for the sixties,

763
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: and then in the eighties again it happened because obviously,

764
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: like the explosion of preppe culture really happened in the eighties,

765
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: and it's just kept evolving. And it's interesting that you

766
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: mentioned Japanese style being a big injection into fashion in

767
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: the nineties, because since then Preppe fashion, which is this

768
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: iconically American look, is very popular in Japan as well.

769
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: And this book Take Ivy, which is like a coffee

770
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,479
Speaker 1: table book that has all these iconic pictures from Ivy

771
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: League schools picturing this classic American preppe style, and its

772
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: authors are both Japanese.

773
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 4: You know the story behind that book, No, so okay.

774
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 4: I did this series called American Ivy and it threads

775
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 4: the story of that book in with the history of

776
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 4: Preppe clothes. But long, long, long story short. That was

777
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 4: just a book that was meant to accompany a film

778
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 4: that was being shot at American college campuses to show

779
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 4: people in Japan how Americans were wearing these clothes because

780
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 4: in Japan they thought that they were beggar clothes. They

781
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 4: thought ivy meant beggar, and because they had like holes

782
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 4: in them, they thought they were super disrespectful, Like kids

783
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 4: were getting arrested for wearing preppy clothes in Japan. And

784
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 4: so the founder of this store that had started replicating

785
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 4: preppy clothes in Japan was like, I have to set

786
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 4: this straight, and he set out to make a movie

787
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 4: that he then wanted to show to various police precincts

788
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 4: to be like, this is how it's worn in America,

789
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 4: you guys, don't understand.

790
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 3: It's like super duper different.

791
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 4: But by the time he went to American college campuses

792
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 4: to make this movie and the book is just sort

793
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 4: of like a side product. By the time they got

794
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 4: there was like nineteen sixty eight, and it was like

795
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 4: a little late. Basically, it was like a movie to

796
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 4: show people in Japan who were afraid of getting arrested

797
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 4: how Americans wear preppy clothes. But the whole story of

798
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 4: how this look got appropriated in Japan, and I mean,

799
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 4: the prepee clothing is kind of responsible for I don't

800
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 4: want to solely responsible, but it gave a huge jump

801
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 4: start to Japanese fashion, and I don't know if we

802
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 4: would have like Yogmamoto without it.

803
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much more to the story. But yeah,

804
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: so I think for Carolyn Bassett, she along with like

805
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: Gwyneth and Kate Moss and various other sort of like

806
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: skinny blonde women in the nineties popularize a certain kind

807
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 2: of effortless look, oversize buttoned down shirts, tailored pants, whatever.

808
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is kind of like making

809
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: it come back now?

810
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 4: Honestly, I think a lot of it. I mean, this

811
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 4: is kind of a longer answer than I think you're

812
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 4: hoping for it. But I do think a lot of

813
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 4: it has to do with tax law. I think it's

814
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 4: because the estate tax is all but dead, and I

815
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 4: think wealthy people don't want to call attention to themselves

816
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 4: anymore because they don't contribute to society here here, here,

817
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 4: they really don't.

818
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 3: Most of them don't make a taxable income, and so

819
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 3: they don't pay income tax.

820
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 4: And so I think it's very different than the wealth

821
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 4: of the Gilded Age, when people wanted to like wear

822
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 4: little tiaras and show it off. They are you know,

823
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 4: or like, don't look at me, like Mark Zuckerberg. You know,

824
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 4: these wealthy people are like, uh, don't get mad at me,

825
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 4: don't look at me. Anything that could look like excess

826
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 4: might call attention to the way they actually live.

827
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Mark Zuckerberg, to your point, looks like shit. He

828
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: looks terrible, and he's I would not even call what

829
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: he's doing quiet luxury. I would call what he's doing

830
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 1: like MMA podcast guy cosplay.

831
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 3: But I mean the way that people are doing it.

832
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: Now.

833
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 4: You know, he has like these watches that cost ungodly,

834
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 4: you know, these like little things. You know, it's not

835
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 4: about wearing like a nice suit. This is the quiet

836
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 4: luxury bit of it. And I think that while this

837
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 4: is already afoot in the nineties, it's only gotten worse

838
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 4: and worse. And so I do think, you know, ever

839
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,479
Speaker 4: since the era of the preppy handbook, this idea of

840
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 4: not showing off your wealth has been a thing. But

841
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 4: I think this phenomenon, this like TikTok phenomenon of quiet luxury,

842
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 4: and this way that people don't want to show off

843
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 4: their wealth, I really do think is like directly related

844
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 4: to the negligence of Congress to regulate the text code

845
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 4: and how everybody hates rich people now when they shouldn't,

846
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 4: Like rich people should be contributing to society and it

847
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 4: should be great.

848
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: This is something that George and I were talking about

849
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: off mic as well. It also seems like a direct

850
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: response to the micro trend economy and how TikTok and

851
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: other social media platforms have created these trends that come

852
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: at warp speed.

853
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 2: So it's just easier to be like, I'll stick to

854
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: the classics, and you know, then remember like what length

855
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: my shorts are supposed to be, and how wide my

856
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 2: pants are supposed to be, and whether or not I

857
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: should be wearing sambas versus you know, gazelles or whatever.

858
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

859
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 4: Well, I also think in an era where we sort

860
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 4: of live in this omnivorous world where you could zoom

861
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 4: with anyone at any time or meet anyone at any time,

862
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 4: it is also a way to like dress for the

863
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 4: most people.

864
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 3: You know.

865
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 4: It's this very like approachable, friendly look that's always a

866
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 4: little professional and a little cool. It just kind of

867
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 4: works for the ways that our lives are lived.

868
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: I want to end on the Kennedys that are currently

869
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: in the news because it's always sort of funny to

870
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,879
Speaker 2: think about where this family is now. The two most

871
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: high profile Kennedy's right now are Jack Schlosberg and RFK Junior,

872
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: who's obviously you know, in the Trump administration. Jack Schlosberg

873
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 2: is sort of, I would say fashion wise, wants to

874
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: kind of have it both ways. Wants to both reference

875
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: his background as a Kennedy while also being kind of

876
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: like cool and you know, have like floppy hair and

877
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: be shirtless dancing on TikTok whatever. And then RFK Junior

878
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: there's this sort of combination of like preppiness but mixed

879
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: with like roided out Jim Bro or something. What do

880
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: you think about you know, you can take your pick, like,

881
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: what do you think about either of them in terms

882
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: of their fashion and in terms of where they fit

883
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: into their family's legacy. Yeah.

884
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 4: I just think RFK is really leaning into the costplay

885
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 4: of it. I think he's going like old school preppy,

886
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 4: you know. I mean, I'm not looking at pictures of

887
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 4: him right now, but I just imagine him wearing like

888
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 4: little vineyard vines ties, you know, like he's not.

889
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 1: Well, vineyard vines in and of itself feels like preppy

890
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: costplay because it has taken up such a notch exactly.

891
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just feel like he is kind of again,

892
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 4: it's this idea of being a little purposefully untrendysure, and

893
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 4: I think he's leaning into that.

894
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 3: It's not a cool look, and it's.

895
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 4: So as you said, he's like half roided out Jimbro.

896
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 4: You can tell that's not really how he dresses in

897
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 4: his life. But he can put on this Kennedy costume

898
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 4: and he can do it very well.

899
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he could work out with jeans in the

900
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 2: morning and then put on a crisp colored shirt in

901
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 2: the evening. It's funny how Cheryl Hines has also occasionally

902
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 2: like whipped out the more Jackie Oh silouettes. So when

903
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 2: it's time to you know, make a public appearance, because

904
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: to me, she's so I mean, not only is she

905
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 2: a Hollywood actress, she's like a comedy person. I mean

906
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: she was like a second city improviser. Like she's not,

907
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 2: you know, a sophisticated first lady, no offense. So you know,

908
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: I love front Carb, but it's just you know, a

909
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: fact for fact. And it is funny to see her

910
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: with this simple silhouette with a thin belt and it's

911
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 2: like baby blue or something, and they're going to some

912
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: event that's like you know, banning vaccines in Puerto Rico

913
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 2: or something.

914
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's the thing that's really scary.

915
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 4: I mean there's a reason that you know, in the

916
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 4: Unite the Right march in Charlottesville, everybody wanted to wear

917
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,919
Speaker 4: collared shirts. It's as well, like where your neighbors were approachable.

918
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 4: It's a very powerful costume.

919
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 3: And again it's.

920
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 4: Shouldn't be we all have access to this stuff. It

921
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 4: shouldn't mean anything, and yet it and then.

922
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: Again going back to what we were talking about earlier,

923
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 1: it's so inextricably linked to whiteness, and a very particular

924
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: I think that, like Vineyard mind slowly, Pulitzer feels vaguely

925
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: white supremacist to me, although you know, it's.

926
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 4: Really complicated also because obviously the high priest of it

927
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 4: is Rough Lauren, and one of the earlier practitioners of

928
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 4: preppy clothes was Jay Press, who was also a Jewish tailor.

929
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 3: Like, there's a.

930
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 4: Huge Jewish history to it, this Japanese history, this Black

931
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 4: history to it, like it really is not.

932
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 3: So that's the other thing.

933
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,439
Speaker 4: It like takes on so many dimensions, and it's such

934
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 4: a rich history, and yet it can still be deluded.

935
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 4: People still can read it as this thing. It still

936
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 4: means nice white neighbors.

937
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,959
Speaker 2: And I think like young kids, not to sound old,

938
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: young kids that now are trying to dress preppy and

939
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: a cool streetwear away are more so emulating, you know,

940
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: Tyler the Creator than they are exactly. I don't know

941
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 2: people doing dressage or something one per one hundred percent

942
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 2: human dressage. I like, that's right. This was very fun

943
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: and I feel like I'm ready to start a Pinterest.

944
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: Well, I feel like I could talk about this forever.

945
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: I think for so many different generations. It has meant

946
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 1: a return to American glory, which is really funny. And

947
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just I think it's really interesting

948
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: how it's this iconic style that won't die, yeah, and

949
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: is really resistant to change. But also not as you know,

950
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: as we were talking about, with the way that like

951
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: black celebrities have taken up the mantle of this style,

952
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 1: it's endlessly modern as well.

953
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: I think that is something that is you know, not

954
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: to pay with too broad a brush, but that's in

955
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: some ways how it's similar to the Kennedy family at large.

956
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: It's like the Kennedy family is a strong enough brand

957
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 2: that you always picture something like some kind of guy,

958
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 2: and yet each generation it has changed so much and

959
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 2: sort of like evolved, like JFK and then JFK Junior

960
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: and now Jack Schlosberg, Like they all clearly have the

961
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 2: same DNA visually, but each one of them has like

962
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: the twist of the nineties twist, the twenties twist, and

963
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: it's sort of like an aesthetic that evolves along with

964
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 2: American culture.

965
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly exactly.

966
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 2: Well, Avery, thank you so much. This was really fun,

967
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: and thank you for taking the time to explain preppiness

968
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 2: to us.

969
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 3: It's fascinating. Thank you so much.

970
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: So that's it for this week's episode.

971
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 2: Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all Things

972
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: Kennedy every week.

973
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me Julia Clair

974
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: and George Saveres.

975
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,439
Speaker 2: Original music by Joshua Chipolski.

976
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: Editing by Graham Gibson.

977
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 2: Mixing and mastering by Doug Bame.

978
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: Research by Dave Ruth and Austin Thompson.

979
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 2: Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

980
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele.

981
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 2: Created by Lyra Smith.

982
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart Podcasts