Speaker 1: This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
Speaker 1: medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
Speaker 1: independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
Speaker 1: professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
Speaker 1: or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This
Speaker 1: episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
Speaker 1: This episode also contains a graphic description of physical violence.
Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised. The views and opinions expressed are
Speaker 1: solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in
Speaker 1: the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red
Speaker 1: Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. I
Speaker 1: kept repeating myself, and I said, that's my stepdad. He
Speaker 1: tried to kill me. Um, that's my stepdad. He tried
Speaker 1: to kill me. That's my stepdad. He tried to kill me.
Speaker 1: And I kept repeating that, so that well, when no,
Speaker 1: don't go near him. Also, I'm not the killer, but
Speaker 1: I technically defended myself and handle that. So I just
Speaker 1: tried to give people as little information as possible, but
Speaker 1: not to where they would stay away and also not
Speaker 1: think I was the person that like intended to do this.
Speaker 1: Being a survivor of a violent crime, whether because it
Speaker 1: happened to you or because it happened to someone you
Speaker 1: love and you were nearby when it happens, is a
Speaker 1: defining traumatic experience. This can be magnified if it is
Speaker 1: something that happens within your family. We are joined here
Speaker 1: on Navigating Narcissism by two survivors who experience life changing
Speaker 1: experiences and who have joined together on their new podcast,
Speaker 1: Survivor Squad, to share stories of survival from their unique perspective.
Speaker 1: Terr Renewal is the daughter of Deborahnewell, whose relationship with
Speaker 1: John Bahan the Dirty John's story we have talked about
Speaker 1: on this podcast. Collier Landry is executive producer of A
Speaker 1: Murder in Mansfield, a documentary about his journey of grief, understanding,
Speaker 1: and resolve in the wake of his father's murder of
Speaker 1: his mother over twenty years ago. We are fortunate in
Speaker 1: these next two episodes to hear about their stories and
Speaker 1: what they have learned, not only about themselves, but about
Speaker 1: these kinds of toxic personalities. We have already heard the
Speaker 1: story of Dirty John, a story of a toxic relationship
Speaker 1: between Deborahnewell and John Mehan, which has become the blueprint
Speaker 1: from manipulative toxic relationships and has inspired podcasts, TV shows,
Speaker 1: and books. However, the end of the story with John's
Speaker 1: death reminds us that these aren't stories in which just
Speaker 1: the person in the relationship is affected. Terror Knewell, Deborah's daughter,
Speaker 1: recognized that John's behavior was toxic. She shared her concerns
Speaker 1: with her mother, and, like a psychopathic person would, John
Speaker 1: recognized it and attempted to drive a wedge between Terra
Speaker 1: and her mother. After John and Deborah's relationship ended, John
Speaker 1: continued to stalk and menace Deborah and her children. This
Speaker 1: culminated in a fateful night when John showed up to
Speaker 1: the parking lot of Terra's apartment building. Today we hear
Speaker 1: Terror Story, a story that reminds us that narcissistic and
Speaker 1: psychopathic and toxic relationships of any kind are never just
Speaker 1: about the two people in it, but about the many
Speaker 1: people around the relationship who may see the red flags
Speaker 1: and who may represent a threat to the toxic person.
Speaker 1: What happened that day and in the months and years
Speaker 1: after is a reminder that the harm of these relationships
Speaker 1: don't just end when the relationship ends. I'd like to
Speaker 1: start with how did the two of you meet and
Speaker 1: get connected? Because I got to say, your stories are
Speaker 1: so unique. Well, i'll let call your start because I
Speaker 1: was actually on his podcast, Moving Past Murder, and that's
Speaker 1: when we first connected. And then for me, it was
Speaker 1: just really great to your someone that took their own
Speaker 1: narrative and made a documentary about it and whatnot. And
Speaker 1: so that's at least like how I started connecting through
Speaker 1: call here. Yeah, so I had Terror as a guest
Speaker 1: and her mother, Debrah on Moving Past Murder, which is
Speaker 1: another podcast I do, and I was like, Wow, we
Speaker 1: have this kindred spirit that not a lot of people.
Speaker 1: It's it's you know, as we say in Survivors Squad,
Speaker 1: it's a club that we all don't really want to
Speaker 1: be a part of it. We just happened to be
Speaker 1: a part of that, right and we just started vibing
Speaker 1: a head her on a couple of times and we
Speaker 1: just became friends. And you said something so important, Caller,
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of folks like us out there,
Speaker 1: and they're must in some ways. And I many trauma
Speaker 1: survivors will echo this. A loneliness being a trauma survivor,
Speaker 1: but even a multiplied loneliness when it's what the two
Speaker 1: of you experience in your case homicide callers, in your
Speaker 1: case self defense terra which involved a lot of media attention.
Speaker 1: That's a very unique place and again for many people,
Speaker 1: it starts to feel like a really lonely place. So
Speaker 1: to have each other to talk to and have those
Speaker 1: places where you can share what that feels like that
Speaker 1: other people may be able to offer empathy. This is
Speaker 1: a different level of empathy that you can give to
Speaker 1: each other, and today I think also bring an empathy
Speaker 1: to the survivor experience of many people who have experienced
Speaker 1: these kinds of toxic relationships. So not maybe not at
Speaker 1: the level you did obviously, but in some ways the
Speaker 1: themes are the same. So thank you, We thank you
Speaker 1: for having us. Yeah, and it was both by John's too,
Speaker 1: and what was a doctor and one was pretending to
Speaker 1: be a doctor, and some very odd parallels to our stories.
Speaker 1: She has a Mansfield connection. It's just it's like after
Speaker 1: we started to comparing notes, it just got weirder. That's fascinating.
Speaker 1: You know. The doctor part's not lost on me though,
Speaker 1: because I think certain professions hiding psychopathy behind those professions,
Speaker 1: because being a doctor is considered such a venerable, safe
Speaker 1: profession that it's actually a great place for a psychopath
Speaker 1: to hide. You know. It's like a plain sight kind
Speaker 1: of a thing, because I think that the profession holds that.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to start with you, Tara. As you know,
Speaker 1: we have had your mom, Deborah come on the show,
Speaker 1: and the world has finally heard your mother, Debra Newell's
Speaker 1: story of the side of the story once and for all.
Speaker 1: She's now written her book. She's sharing her side of
Speaker 1: the story. We know the stories that were told before
Speaker 1: that we're a bit of a distortion and didn't give
Speaker 1: the sort of the full truth. However, and this is
Speaker 1: always something that's been there for me. You're such a
Speaker 1: major part of the story, intopend pendant of your mother's story.
Speaker 1: So I am so glad to be able to speak
Speaker 1: with you because you bring an experience not only in it,
Speaker 1: but then obviously in the aftermath of it too. One
Speaker 1: thing to me to her that's so interesting about your
Speaker 1: story is that you were not actually really able to
Speaker 1: tell your own story right. It was told through television,
Speaker 1: It was told to the l a time story can
Speaker 1: you give us a sense of what they got right
Speaker 1: and what they didn't get right. So I want to
Speaker 1: start with the show first because it's more, well, I
Speaker 1: want to say, it's newer in a sense. So the
Speaker 1: show started off with having Julia Gardner play me, and
Speaker 1: I wasn't really seen in the show. It was just
Speaker 1: basically a secondary character. But at the end, this thing
Speaker 1: happens to her and you don't get to know her personality.
Speaker 1: You think that she's okay, like a fun loving girl,
Speaker 1: like sweet, nice and stuff, but you don't get to
Speaker 1: know the depth of her character. And I understand up
Speaker 1: because also I didn't get to meet Julia Gardner before
Speaker 1: I ended up meeting her. She's also a really big
Speaker 1: actress that's working all the time and stuff, so she's
Speaker 1: traveling back and forth. So it wasn't the lack of
Speaker 1: that she didn't want to meet me. The producers, the
Speaker 1: stunt coordinator, and the director they met with me, and
Speaker 1: the one part that they really did get right was
Speaker 1: my attack, and I was so grateful for that because
Speaker 1: that was the one thing that needed to be viewed
Speaker 1: through my eyes. And there's like one thing that she
Speaker 1: did differently, which she put her back back up. I
Speaker 1: actually put my purse under my heart to protect my heart.
Speaker 1: The scene was exactly like that, just the purse was
Speaker 1: in a different spot, and then my mom didn't help
Speaker 1: him get better from drugs. The scene for Thanksgiving was
Speaker 1: a lot different because I got into an argument with
Speaker 1: John and my mom the night before Thanksgiving. And I
Speaker 1: am the youngest, I am more similar to my mom
Speaker 1: in ways of appeasing, and I really have learned her
Speaker 1: dynamic and relationships and have repeated that dynamic in my relationships.
Speaker 1: I like to say I worked on it now, but
Speaker 1: that has been a past pattern of mine, So I
Speaker 1: really I was really able to see the dynamics and stuff.
Speaker 1: But it was just interesting because it's for show on
Speaker 1: the TV show, and I think that the podcast really
Speaker 1: did get the dynamic of generational trauma. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I don't think my mom appreciated at the time, because
Speaker 1: it's so hard to be told your family is messed
Speaker 1: up in a sense and by all these people, and
Speaker 1: then all these people are nitpicking. If you're not aware
Speaker 1: of your generational trauma and people are telling and you,
Speaker 1: you're going to have to have shields up to protect
Speaker 1: yourself because you're not ready and all these people are
Speaker 1: coming at you, so that feels like a threat to
Speaker 1: the nervous system. So you know you've got to be
Speaker 1: on guard. And then it takes a while, like I
Speaker 1: feel like years later, to realize, oh wow, generational trauma
Speaker 1: is a thing exactly in our family. It really is.
Speaker 1: So we always again, this story has always been told
Speaker 1: from your mother's perspective. I'd like to hear from you.
Speaker 1: What were your first impressions of John Meehan. My first
Speaker 1: impressions of him was I honestly wanted to appease to
Speaker 1: my mom. I wanted to like this guy. My sister
Speaker 1: was so angry that this guy was in the picture.
Speaker 1: She didn't like him. My sister is also more activated
Speaker 1: in her fight response, and so she's going to be
Speaker 1: more vocal about things. She's going to put her foot down,
Speaker 1: she's going to create a scene more where I I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I want to get to know him. I want to
Speaker 1: see if he's really the guy that my sister says
Speaker 1: he is, or is he the guy that my mom
Speaker 1: says he is. And I really truly wanted him to
Speaker 1: be this guy that my mom says he was, But
Speaker 1: there was little things I would ask him questions. He
Speaker 1: would give me one worded answers where I wasn't able
Speaker 1: to elaborate. But knowing me, I just like, Okay, you
Speaker 1: give me that one word, I'll ask like ten more questions,
Speaker 1: you know. And I really want to get to know
Speaker 1: people because I think that people are so interesting, they're
Speaker 1: so a lot of times they're beautiful with their minds
Speaker 1: and stuff. Where John was just not giving me that energy.
Speaker 1: But he knew a lot about my medical problems because
Speaker 1: I was actually having stomach ulcer issues. I was having
Speaker 1: thyroid issues also, and it was off the charts because
Speaker 1: I was in a relationship. That relationship was coming to
Speaker 1: an end, and so like my cortisol levels were super high.
Speaker 1: I was just on edge all the time. And John
Speaker 1: told me that it might be overari insist. So I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, okay, like that sounds normal. So I
Speaker 1: actually went to a O. B G. Y N. I
Speaker 1: got my levels tested and I found out a bunch
Speaker 1: of stuff there and this doctor didn't want me to
Speaker 1: go to another place because she saw that it was
Speaker 1: just stress causiness and it was the stress from my
Speaker 1: mom and these unhealthy dynamics with my relationship, and I mean,
Speaker 1: my medical problems got worse as John was in our
Speaker 1: lives because I ended up getting in a fight with
Speaker 1: my mom then day before Thanksgiving. I ended up just
Speaker 1: asking her like, why is John using your car? Why
Speaker 1: is he doing this? He seems hyped up on drugs.
Speaker 1: Because I also had friends that were frequent flyers, and
Speaker 1: one of the things was they would say their arm
Speaker 1: with her all the time, and John was like, oh,
Speaker 1: my arm hurt. So I went to the hospital and
Speaker 1: I was like, hmm, that's an addict thing. M that's interesting.
Speaker 1: One thing I remember about the story was that your
Speaker 1: mother had been with John for a little while before
Speaker 1: you actually met him in person, because you were living
Speaker 1: in another city. Yes, and so your sister's impression was
Speaker 1: made pretty early on. She met him very early in
Speaker 1: your mom's relationship, and then you met him later. Well,
Speaker 1: it was so interesting about something you just said, Terry.
Speaker 1: She's like, my mom had her experience and she liked him,
Speaker 1: and I was hoping to sort of meet her where
Speaker 1: she was at. My sister had one experience and it
Speaker 1: wasn't very good. But what you weren't doing actually was
Speaker 1: holding space for the idea that Tera is going to
Speaker 1: have her own experience. In many ways, you felt like
Speaker 1: I've either got to make my sister's experience or my
Speaker 1: mother's experience work. And that's a real manifestation also of
Speaker 1: how that family system worked. It's not like I don't
Speaker 1: get my own independent assessment. I'm gonna have to make
Speaker 1: one of these two impressions fit. Oh wow, that's a
Speaker 1: really big realization there. You know that there was no
Speaker 1: space for terror to say what do I think of
Speaker 1: this guy? Like, Okay, you have your experience, but let
Speaker 1: me see how I feel. And that though terror is
Speaker 1: not unusual for a person who's been around high conflict personalities,
Speaker 1: like you said, intergenerationally, in a way, there's no space
Speaker 1: for our own subjective reality when we've been through those cycles.
Speaker 1: It's as though, I mean, I have to pick from
Speaker 1: the shelf of opinions that's been given to me, but
Speaker 1: I don't get to shape my own. And over time
Speaker 1: you did, you did shape your own. I think it
Speaker 1: took a while, even after I was attacked and everything,
Speaker 1: to realize I had a voice and to realize that
Speaker 1: I could trust me intuition, because that is something that
Speaker 1: saved me. And you know, when you're around all these narcissists,
Speaker 1: these psychopaths, these sociopaths, these interesting figures. Like my whole
Speaker 1: life has been around you know, my mom had has
Speaker 1: been with many of these interesting people. Even my family
Speaker 1: members have been these interesting people. And I want to say,
Speaker 1: like my brother's not, but there's been other people in
Speaker 1: my family that have these traits. I think I think
Speaker 1: there's somebody and just about everybody's family that has these traits,
Speaker 1: and the fortunate ones don't have many of them. But
Speaker 1: I don't know if many. I guess the people who
Speaker 1: don't have these traits and family I never made them.
Speaker 1: So I think that's really what it is. As you
Speaker 1: got to know John, there were things that were unsettling
Speaker 1: you about him, beyond just the one word answers. What
Speaker 1: were some of the patterns you were seeing in him
Speaker 1: that maybe now you'd identify as being consistent with psychopathy
Speaker 1: or narcissism, but at the time you just felt, this
Speaker 1: is not cool, like this doesn't feel good. What were
Speaker 1: some of those early patterns. There was this one time
Speaker 1: where we went out to dinner. It was before I
Speaker 1: had this confrontation with my mom and John, and we
Speaker 1: were in the car. I was with my boyfriend at
Speaker 1: the time and then my best friend and we were
Speaker 1: all on the back and I tried to get out
Speaker 1: of the car. The child lock was on the car,
Speaker 1: and so I asked on I'm like, hey, can you
Speaker 1: please let me out? He didn't hear me, or thought
Speaker 1: he didn't hear me, and then so I say a
Speaker 1: little bit louder, and I'm soft spoken, so this could
Speaker 1: go either way, So I say a little bit louder.
Speaker 1: He literally gets out of the car, goes upstairs and
Speaker 1: doesn't let me out, and I'm like, did I just like,
Speaker 1: did I just see that right? Did I hear that right?
Speaker 1: And then I look at my friends and we're like,
Speaker 1: maybe he didn't hear us. But for him, it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't need to do this. This is the first
Speaker 1: step of isolating them. So it was like you didn't exist.
Speaker 1: He was literally not responding to and so you didn't exist,
Speaker 1: which is a form of gas lighting, because you do exist,
Speaker 1: and so just negating your exist stance by literally not
Speaker 1: responding and then storming off, it's as though your very
Speaker 1: existence was aggravating him. So he was going to storm
Speaker 1: away from that. Yeah, And I don't get why because
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm trying to be nice and cooperative,
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm the one that's gonna take the
Speaker 1: money from her. I'm the one that's going to buzz
Speaker 1: into her here. And so I'm the first one that
Speaker 1: he needs to get rid of other than Jacqueline. Well,
Speaker 1: Jacqueline was the first one, because Jacqueline was the one
Speaker 1: starting problems from the beginning. But then I was the
Speaker 1: second one because oh, I'm taking her resources, I'm taking
Speaker 1: her time, and I'm going to be the one to
Speaker 1: be the voice of reason. And it's so interesting you
Speaker 1: just said something tera that I heard was that she
Speaker 1: was the one causing problem. Jacqueline, your sister, She was
Speaker 1: the one causing problems in the beginning. Jacqueline actually wasn't
Speaker 1: causing problems. Jacqueline was actually seeing the situation clearly. But
Speaker 1: it speaks to how much John brainwashed the situation because
Speaker 1: it really was being painted as Jacqueline was causing problems.
Speaker 1: But what Jacqueline wasn't doing was going along with the
Speaker 1: status quo of someone who's making her uncomfortable. And so
Speaker 1: that was you just being a troublemaker, and anyone who's
Speaker 1: a truth teller in these kinds of narcissistic systems almost
Speaker 1: immediately gets painted as a problem. That identity of being
Speaker 1: the problem the person causing trouble is what gets internalized,
Speaker 1: and even going into the future, when that person sees
Speaker 1: a situation that doesn't feel cool and they're like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm no troublemaker, And my thought is, you ain't no troublemaker.
Speaker 1: You're just calling this stuff out straight. But we tend
Speaker 1: that that tendency to be pathologized for seeing something clearly,
Speaker 1: that language still persists. That's the kind of thing that's
Speaker 1: saying that Jacqueline saw it clearly seems to be closer
Speaker 1: to the truth. I'm sure your mother didn't like it
Speaker 1: at the time. Well, and Jacqueline is very reactive, and
Speaker 1: when someone yelling at you, you're actually not able to
Speaker 1: hear that octave and here and listening perfectly, so you're
Speaker 1: not receiving that information. Shan where when I was able
Speaker 1: to say certain things, it was able to penetrate my
Speaker 1: mom's thoughts a little bit more, but I still was
Speaker 1: going to take away her happiness and gonna take away
Speaker 1: her oxytocin gonna take away this guy from her life
Speaker 1: when she's so physically connected to him right now? Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I mean it's it is so interesting that caregiving was
Speaker 1: in a way not speaking truth. You know. I think
Speaker 1: that once a person's really been through it, in any
Speaker 1: form of narcissistic, psychopathic, sociopathic relationship, the hope is the
Speaker 1: win is that you become discerning. I mean, Tara, and
Speaker 1: I've said this. I said it when I talked with
Speaker 1: your mom. I've said it when I've spoken about this
Speaker 1: situation before. Had John not died, okay, had and had
Speaker 1: you not defended yourself and his life ended it? On
Speaker 1: that day, someone in your family, most likely you, but
Speaker 1: someone in your family was going to be harmed or killed.
Speaker 1: Right that that's the end of the story. That level
Speaker 1: of tragedy almost becomes a sort of rock bottom. Now
Speaker 1: you're seeing these patterns, right, You're trying to be protective
Speaker 1: of mom. You're also hearing Jacqueline's reactions. How did you
Speaker 1: start to express your concerns to your mother about patterns
Speaker 1: you were seeing that we're making you uncomfortable again, Terry,
Speaker 1: you didn't have the vocabulary of narcissism or narcissistic abuse
Speaker 1: or psychopathy. When you were seeing all these signs and
Speaker 1: signals but something didn't feel right, you were sensing it,
Speaker 1: How did you communicate that with her? Or did you so?
Speaker 1: I would just say, Hey, Mom, don't you think it's weird?
Speaker 1: They all his cars got stolen and he has a
Speaker 1: couple of different stories for the situation. Don't you think
Speaker 1: it's weird that he's a doctor and he doesn't have
Speaker 1: a car. Isn't that weird that the insurance haven't cleared
Speaker 1: it up by now? Because the insurance with this one
Speaker 1: situation with my car cleared it up within a week, Like,
Speaker 1: this is crazy? And I just started asking her logical questions.
Speaker 1: How did you respond to that? Oh, Tara, Like he's
Speaker 1: a doctor, Like he's just like busy all the time. Oh,
Speaker 1: he knows what he's doing. Oh like it's still being investigated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's making trouble. It's interesting you hit her with logic
Speaker 1: because basically what you were doing is you're sort of
Speaker 1: poking holes in a psycho psychopaths ground game, right, because
Speaker 1: they're all about lies to seeds, aliases, cover stories. They're
Speaker 1: really remarkably good at lying and keeping their lies straight.
Speaker 1: That's actually a real sort of signature move of psychopathy,
Speaker 1: whereas the rest of us we just get really confused
Speaker 1: if we start lying. Right that said, you were hitting
Speaker 1: her with logic. Did you at any point say to
Speaker 1: your mother something here just doesn't feel right to me.
Speaker 1: I'm uncomfortable. He's doing these things that made me feel uncomfortable. No,
Speaker 1: because the second I started to have those logical questions
Speaker 1: was the minute that he picked a fight with me.
Speaker 1: I got kicked out of the house that they were
Speaker 1: living in two months they moved in together, and then
Speaker 1: I like, I did all the grassery shopping for Thanksgiving
Speaker 1: and I wasn't able to go to Thanksgiving the next
Speaker 1: day because of him. He made sure that that didn't happen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it was all the isolation dynamic, which again, is
Speaker 1: that kind of toxic relationship. One oh one, take away anyone,
Speaker 1: because in a way, what you could have been to her, Terra,
Speaker 1: was the anti gaslight. Right. The gas lighting doesn't work
Speaker 1: if you have one solid person in your life who's saying,
Speaker 1: oh no, no, this is the reality. Oh no, no,
Speaker 1: you didn't remember it wrong, this is what happened. Can't
Speaker 1: gaslight someone if they've got that support. So the only
Speaker 1: way a gaslighter can play their game is to remove
Speaker 1: any other influences that will counter them and only keep
Speaker 1: people around that are on the gaslighters team. And he
Speaker 1: didn't really have a team, which is interesting. So he
Speaker 1: just had to get rid of all of you. He
Speaker 1: had no one. He had no one, which is all
Speaker 1: the more remarkable for how much he was able to
Speaker 1: isolate her, Because sometimes you'll have people in your corner, right,
Speaker 1: other family members or friends that you know are going
Speaker 1: to be your yes people. But in your family's case,
Speaker 1: he could sense. I mean, and it's not like it's logical, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: got to get rid of the people who can stop
Speaker 1: me from gas lighting. But as soon as they sense
Speaker 1: that someone has someone's ear, they get him out of
Speaker 1: the way. And so as soon as you started raising
Speaker 1: these concerns, he saw you as a menace, yeah, and
Speaker 1: really wanted you out of the picture. Do you think
Speaker 1: he saw you as more of a menso, Jackline, I
Speaker 1: think he saw us both. But I think he saw
Speaker 1: me as the more like one that liked to plan
Speaker 1: and the one that had more logic. I actually cut
Speaker 1: off contact from my mom because I wanted to prove
Speaker 1: to her that I don't want your money. All I
Speaker 1: want is you to be my mom and how quality
Speaker 1: time with you? And so I started to separate from
Speaker 1: them to show that. And then there was just more
Speaker 1: stuff that happened here and there, and now I'm like,
Speaker 1: trauma brain, I lost your question. You know what, It's funny.
Speaker 1: I could see you losing my question, and that's I mean,
Speaker 1: don't pathologize yourself. Remember what every trauma survivor needs to remember.
Speaker 1: Instead of us viewing the traumatized parts of the way
Speaker 1: the nervous system responds as it letting us down, view
Speaker 1: it is protecting you. For a minute, you're being pulled
Speaker 1: out of this conversation because it didn't feel okay. It
Speaker 1: was a way to feel safe. It's really quite remarkable
Speaker 1: how we protect ourselves, but we don't do it well,
Speaker 1: Like we don't realize that. We have a lot of
Speaker 1: negative self talk. So be kind yourself. I saw it
Speaker 1: literally happening in real time. So you're good. And like
Speaker 1: I said, trauma brain is protective brain. I always call
Speaker 1: it a sort of an overactive security guard. Like, okay,
Speaker 1: we're good. What is it like the hippocampus shut up. Well,
Speaker 1: it's what you got is this whole system of the amygdala,
Speaker 1: the hippocampus, and how that works with the frontal lobes
Speaker 1: of the brain. It's like this sort of fear network
Speaker 1: that plays and how we process information. That is, especially
Speaker 1: when we're talking about that event, we almost go right
Speaker 1: back to it because it's so encoded somatically for us,
Speaker 1: and so we're having these strong reactions that feel really overwhelming,
Speaker 1: of course, like the body actually does it a little
Speaker 1: b her and the mind is like a bussy gas
Speaker 1: light or like stop that, and the body's like no, no,
Speaker 1: somebody doesn't feel right here. And you're talking about this.
Speaker 1: That's what we would expect before it all culminated. And
Speaker 1: when John attacked you, did you ever directly confront John
Speaker 1: about his behavior, about his conduct or even that you
Speaker 1: were onto him. No. You want to know what I said,
Speaker 1: And this is what everyone should say if they're working
Speaker 1: with or want to try to prove so and wrong.
Speaker 1: I used reverse to ecology. I was like, mom, I
Speaker 1: would love to talk to him, I would love to
Speaker 1: work things out. Please let him know that. And I
Speaker 1: kept reiterating that, and I think she went back to
Speaker 1: him and it was like tears, wanting to work things out,
Speaker 1: and he was just like, now, well, I never heard
Speaker 1: about his responses, but I'm assuming they weren't. So what's
Speaker 1: interesting is in that you actually, really we're saying, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna extend in olive branch. It was actually a
Speaker 1: really it was a clever move because his goal was
Speaker 1: to isolate. There was no point in making you into
Speaker 1: an ally. And in a way, you almost made yourself
Speaker 1: a little more dangerous, right because then he recognized that
Speaker 1: he no longer has the defense of Look, Tara doesn't
Speaker 1: like me. She's trying to come between us. So you
Speaker 1: took away that defense for him. But what another thing
Speaker 1: you may not recognize how wise it was was to
Speaker 1: not directly confront him that you saw him and you
Speaker 1: got him, because if you had done that, you would
Speaker 1: have just been pushing fast forward on the button that
Speaker 1: would have led to the inevitable attempt to harm you.
Speaker 1: There's nothing a narcissist, psychopath or sociopath hates more than
Speaker 1: somebody saying I know what you're about. They really want
Speaker 1: to think they're the most clever person in the room.
Speaker 1: And if you're going to be the one to pull
Speaker 1: off the mask. It's going to be swift justice from them.
Speaker 1: And so you really, without knowing it, did the right things. Well,
Speaker 1: I knew what I was doing. When I was doing
Speaker 1: I was like, this is going to throw a wrench
Speaker 1: in his land. Absolutely goodness for a wrench. But even
Speaker 1: then not calling him out, like a lot of people
Speaker 1: will say, I get what you are. You're a money
Speaker 1: grubbing la la la. You know that that kind of
Speaker 1: reactive response is what people tend to do. It's also
Speaker 1: what they want, yes, because it can control you. Barkie
Speaker 1: dogs don't bite no, exactly right, that's right. Well I
Speaker 1: did that when I confronted my mom about Thanksgiving that
Speaker 1: day before and whatnot, and he started screaming at me
Speaker 1: and he was like, you just want your mom's money,
Speaker 1: you want this, and I was like, no, John, that's
Speaker 1: what you want. And I also threw a lot of
Speaker 1: efforts at him and whatnot. And then my mom even
Speaker 1: asked my boyfriend at the time because he was in
Speaker 1: the room with us when this is happening, and she's like,
Speaker 1: what is your opinion? And he was just like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I agree with terror these are questionable things.
Speaker 1: My session with Tera and Collier will continue after this break.
Speaker 1: So Tara walk us through what led up to the
Speaker 1: attack by John. My mom had left him for the
Speaker 1: second time. She moved out all of her stuff out
Speaker 1: of the Vegas house that they got together. During this time,
Speaker 1: John was coming to California and stalking my family and
Speaker 1: I and we wouldn't know this because his dog would
Speaker 1: always get out. The neighbors would put the dog back.
Speaker 1: He would literally leave the dog with a big bull
Speaker 1: of food and water and then leave the door open
Speaker 1: and the dog would get out because the dog was lonely,
Speaker 1: and she ended up in the pound one day because
Speaker 1: she was wondering the streets and they were calling John.
Speaker 1: We didn't want to get involved. We didn't want to
Speaker 1: piss him off. At this time, John also ran the
Speaker 1: car that my mom got him into a gate. I
Speaker 1: think he was on drugs and just ran it into
Speaker 1: the gate and then ran away from the car. So
Speaker 1: we actually got that cart back because it was impounded
Speaker 1: and it was in my mom's name. And then during
Speaker 1: this time also lit my mom's jag on fire in
Speaker 1: California and the police had that case. And then John
Speaker 1: ended up coming after me, but my sister saw him
Speaker 1: and chased him down because he was stalking my mom
Speaker 1: at her apartment complex, and then he got on the
Speaker 1: freeway and that's where my sister lost him. My sister
Speaker 1: came to my house, but I had work at seven
Speaker 1: am the next day, so she wasn't going to wake
Speaker 1: me up. She walked by my door she heard my cat,
Speaker 1: so she was like, okay, Terrace sounds okay. She sent
Speaker 1: me a text message, but that day was actually going
Speaker 1: to the Jason Aldane concert, so I was very preoccupied.
Speaker 1: I didn't bring my knife with me that I would
Speaker 1: normally bring, because I also taped up knives everywhere around
Speaker 1: my house because well, I had a dream that I
Speaker 1: actually stabbed him before this all happened when I was
Speaker 1: living in Vegas, and I have dreams that come true sometimes,
Speaker 1: so I had this fear that John was going to
Speaker 1: come after me and try to kill me. I also
Speaker 1: wrote my ex a letter saying the dog's years and
Speaker 1: wanting everything to be in order because I had this
Speaker 1: fillion of death. So I went to work that morning,
Speaker 1: and then I got off a little bit early because
Speaker 1: John actually called to make a fake appointment for dogs
Speaker 1: that day, and he missed that appointment, so I was
Speaker 1: actually able to go home. I got ready and I
Speaker 1: came back to work, and because I came back to
Speaker 1: work early, I was able to get off early. Probably
Speaker 1: left like sixteen at work, and then I do the
Speaker 1: drive that takes me around LinkedIn nine minutes. I got
Speaker 1: to my parking garage and I pulled up. The gate
Speaker 1: was broken, and I saw this guy who was backed
Speaker 1: up into a parking space and he was fiddling with
Speaker 1: a tire iron and my dog started barking at him.
Speaker 1: I told my dog, did knock it off. My dog
Speaker 1: did because he was a good dog, and stopped. And
Speaker 1: I just thought that that guy looked like he was homeless.
Speaker 1: I didn't connect the dots that it was John, but
Speaker 1: my dog did. So I parked there, got out of
Speaker 1: the car. Then John grabbed me by the waist, looked
Speaker 1: me in the eyes and said do you remember me?
Speaker 1: And I immediately went into fleamon tried to run away
Speaker 1: from him. I was unable to disconnect. He covered my
Speaker 1: mouth and I bit down as hard as I could
Speaker 1: on his hand, and then he started to punch me
Speaker 1: what I thought was punching before this, actually brought up
Speaker 1: my purse to protect my heart, and I had a
Speaker 1: nice leather clutch, so I thought he was punching me,
Speaker 1: but he was actually stabbing me. So I was stabbed
Speaker 1: once in my forearm at this time, and then I
Speaker 1: believed I was stabbed in the chest at this point too,
Speaker 1: but the knife literally went through my purse and barely
Speaker 1: got my chest, and then I was unable to disconnect
Speaker 1: from him. My dog was attacking his ankles at the time,
Speaker 1: and I dropped my dog's leash because I didn't want
Speaker 1: my dog to be in this fight with me. I
Speaker 1: wanted him to go run away, but he was fighting
Speaker 1: and he tore up John's ankles pretty good too, So
Speaker 1: I fell on my back. I scraped my shoulders pretty badly,
Speaker 1: and John was on his knees, and at this time
Speaker 1: the knife was out of the Dell Taco bag and
Speaker 1: I realized that, oh, this is a knife attack. I
Speaker 1: was actually wearing rain boots because I worked out a
Speaker 1: dog kennel. This actually helped me in my attack because
Speaker 1: I had more mass to cover when I was kicking him,
Speaker 1: so I would kick his forearms and my dog was
Speaker 1: attacking his ankles at the same time, I actually kicked
Speaker 1: the knife out of his forearm and it landed on
Speaker 1: my right hand side. I'm right hand in It landed
Speaker 1: in the ice picked position, which is the perfect position
Speaker 1: for picking up a knife, and I picked it up,
Speaker 1: and just like my guides God whoever like, told me,
Speaker 1: it's just like a now or never basically, and so
Speaker 1: I picked it up. I still can't connect the dots
Speaker 1: and see where I stabbed him, so I felt like
Speaker 1: I was stabbing him in the front of his chest,
Speaker 1: but I was actually stabbing him in the back of
Speaker 1: his shoulders. And then he fell down, he gasped on me,
Speaker 1: and then I was holding his head so he wouldn't
Speaker 1: bite me like a zombie. And then I actually stabbed
Speaker 1: him in his forehead. And then the last one was
Speaker 1: to the eye, because that's the softest point of entry
Speaker 1: to the brain. And that's when I know he wouldn't
Speaker 1: freddie cougar me and get up and be able to
Speaker 1: because of that. So I did the last two and
Speaker 1: thought And that's why I really remember those ones, because
Speaker 1: I gave thought to those ones, because if I didn't
Speaker 1: do those, he would get up and he would kill me.
Speaker 1: And then I took the knife. I tossed it away
Speaker 1: from the body and then I started to scoot away.
Speaker 1: I started to assess the situation. I realized that I
Speaker 1: was bleeding on my forearm, so I started to apply
Speaker 1: pressure to that, and then I looked around saw my
Speaker 1: dog was eating del taco and I told him to
Speaker 1: knock it off because I thought it could be poison.
Speaker 1: He knocked it off, and then this lady came up
Speaker 1: with a yellow lamb and she just asked me what
Speaker 1: I needed help with. I asked her to please grab
Speaker 1: my dog because I already took care of my wound
Speaker 1: on my forearm and I was good with that. And
Speaker 1: then more people started coming up at this time, like
Speaker 1: this guy with the bike. He came up asked me
Speaker 1: if I was okay, and then Skyler, the fourteen year
Speaker 1: old lifeguard, she showed up and then she told me, Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Skylar. I'm trained for this type of situation. What's
Speaker 1: your name, what's your age? When's your birthday? Started asking
Speaker 1: me questions to get my mind back to awareness and
Speaker 1: not moment, and I kept repeating myself. Was also careful
Speaker 1: what I said because I didn't want to go to
Speaker 1: jail and be a killer. So I kept repeating myself
Speaker 1: and I said, that's my stepdad. He tried to kill me.
Speaker 1: That's my stepdad. He tried to kill me. And I
Speaker 1: kept repeating that so that people wouldn't know, don't go
Speaker 1: near him. Also, I'm not the killer, but I technically
Speaker 1: defended myself and handled that. So I just tried to
Speaker 1: give people as little information as possible, but enough to
Speaker 1: where they would stay away and also not think I
Speaker 1: was the person that like intended to do this. You know,
Speaker 1: hearing this story from I've read it, I've heard it,
Speaker 1: but sitting with you in this room and hearing it,
Speaker 1: the profundity I mean it is. I I need a minute,
Speaker 1: you know, to to just the the clarity you had.
Speaker 1: It goes back to a caller was saying I can
Speaker 1: promise you this. I would have gone into a helplessness
Speaker 1: mode of assuming this person could overpower me. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I've never been in this situation, but it feels like
Speaker 1: there was a clarity of how do I stop this,
Speaker 1: how do I end this? I'm going to enter through
Speaker 1: the eye. I need to get away from this. My
Speaker 1: dog can't eat that food. It could be poison. There
Speaker 1: was a clarity to your thought that was and we
Speaker 1: hear this of stories from wartime, from people who are
Speaker 1: in some of the most horrific circumstances, that this almost
Speaker 1: preternatural clarity comes in and you go that you were
Speaker 1: saying before a full on survival mode, that the instinct
Speaker 1: and you to survive overpowered any other instinct you had
Speaker 1: at that point, which is remarkable. Thank you. I think
Speaker 1: it also has to do with I've been through a
Speaker 1: lot of childhood trauma my whole life, and then I
Speaker 1: went through a situation where one of my ex boyfriends
Speaker 1: hit me with a car. Yeah, so I think my
Speaker 1: system was already ready to fight and be activated. But
Speaker 1: if it was someone that I was in love with,
Speaker 1: I think that would have been different. Oh that's very interesting.
Speaker 1: So you think you would have had a different approach
Speaker 1: because at some level, Terra, there was like you said,
Speaker 1: you were having the nightmares, your knives taped around the house,
Speaker 1: you were living in a defensive posture. So he's almost
Speaker 1: his physical queue immediately went to danger. There was no
Speaker 1: confusion there. It was just that this person represents danger.
Speaker 1: It's almost like a loaded gun. There was no ambiguity there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I knew when he said, oh do you remember me?
Speaker 1: If that was not like, oh hey, how's it going,
Speaker 1: it's no, You're gonna try to kill me and put
Speaker 1: me in the back of your trunk, because he was
Speaker 1: trying to push me towards his trunk. I found out
Speaker 1: later that he had something ridiculous like eleven or thirty
Speaker 1: knives in his trunk. At the point that incident happened
Speaker 1: in the garage, before that, how many weeks or months
Speaker 1: had it been since you'd last spoken to him? Even
Speaker 1: years years, so years had gone by, you had no
Speaker 1: contact with him. The stalk behavior was apparent, which, by
Speaker 1: the way, is its own form of trauma. If it
Speaker 1: was only the stalking terra, that would have been a
Speaker 1: horrifying enough way to live, so in a way that
Speaker 1: I think that a person even going through the stalking
Speaker 1: element of this would found themselves stretched to the limit.
Speaker 1: And yet you lived like that. And for many people,
Speaker 1: stalking is this sort of menace that doesn't always realize
Speaker 1: into the feared behavior, but you have to change your
Speaker 1: life around the stocking. So you were living for a
Speaker 1: long time with this person lurking in the shadows and
Speaker 1: just not knowing how it would finally manifest. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I also think I took a yoga class like a
Speaker 1: week beforehand, and so like I also had breath control then,
Speaker 1: and so I think that there was a lot of
Speaker 1: things that just aligned with me being here. And I'm
Speaker 1: also a major manifest or where anything like I'm manifested
Speaker 1: just comes true. Like the universe just really has my back.
Speaker 1: It's amazing thing you could say that, though, that the
Speaker 1: universe has my back, because until that attack was done,
Speaker 1: your body, mind, and soul were living fully in the
Speaker 1: idea that you might very well have been about to die.
Speaker 1: So ultimately the universe had your back. But the universe
Speaker 1: pushed you through a lot. I mean it did. But
Speaker 1: I'm so blessed to be here. And it made me
Speaker 1: deal with everything that I hadn't deal with before, where
Speaker 1: I literally I was so reactive too, I didn't know
Speaker 1: how to cope. I would have panic attacks all the time.
Speaker 1: I was also a child of molestation and stuff, so
Speaker 1: my nervous system has always been jacked up. It got
Speaker 1: me to learn about it. It got me to learn
Speaker 1: about other people, other brains. It just really put me down.
Speaker 1: This amazing path of healing and understanding, and that right
Speaker 1: there is the is the highest calling of healing when
Speaker 1: we go through the most horrific of human experiences, and
Speaker 1: as we heal, we find meaning and purpose of some
Speaker 1: kind in it. Whether that means paying it forward, whether
Speaker 1: this's and how we love other people, whether it's how
Speaker 1: we pursue creative pursuits, whether that storytelling or art or
Speaker 1: however we do what we do, but in a way
Speaker 1: that in essence is focused on paying it forward. That's
Speaker 1: a big destination. And it sounds like you got there,
Speaker 1: which is really quite remarkable. Let me ask you this
Speaker 1: as a question. Obviously harmedics must have come taken you
Speaker 1: taken him. What was it like in those early hours
Speaker 1: after you were now in I imagine in an emergency room.
Speaker 1: So they put me in the ambulance. I told them,
Speaker 1: you can't put Ivy and me at all. I'm really
Speaker 1: stubborn sometime, and I hate doctor. I get that girl.
Speaker 1: I was so I told you can't touch me unless
Speaker 1: I have my dog here. And I felt the need
Speaker 1: to protect myself after everything that happened. So I was like,
Speaker 1: you're not putting a needle in me. You're not hurting me.
Speaker 1: You're not poking me, you're not touching me until I
Speaker 1: have my dog here, because I'll let you do anything
Speaker 1: to me with my dog here. So they were like okay,
Speaker 1: and then they went and got my dog for my mom,
Speaker 1: and then my dog just literally sat on my lap
Speaker 1: and then I was like, okay, you can't do whatever.
Speaker 1: And then I also asked them, I'm like, so do
Speaker 1: you think I'll be able to make it to the
Speaker 1: Jason Aldon concert tonight? Do you think I'll get out
Speaker 1: of here in time? I get it though, that craving
Speaker 1: for normal. For you paid for the concert tickets, concert
Speaker 1: tickets for a hundred dollars lawn seats, and I was like,
Speaker 1: a hundred dollars for lawn seats is so expensive. So
Speaker 1: I like, I like the practicality as as you went
Speaker 1: into that. And so you're in the hospital and you
Speaker 1: are now you're getting treated. So they like wrapped up
Speaker 1: my wound, but then I wasn't able to get stitches.
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to get any medical attention really until
Speaker 1: they questioned me. Yeah. Yeah, So they questioned me. They
Speaker 1: took pictures of everything. So they unwrapped my wounds at
Speaker 1: times too, So I was literally sitting there with a
Speaker 1: like a wound open for like an hour, and then
Speaker 1: I kept asking, when can I see my family? When
Speaker 1: can I see them? Blah blah blah. I wasn't able
Speaker 1: to see my mom, and I told them, well, I
Speaker 1: want my mom here for stitches and stuff because I've
Speaker 1: never had stitches in my life, so I was like,
Speaker 1: I need her here. And then I was able to
Speaker 1: see my sister Nicole first because my sister Jacqueline was
Speaker 1: fighting with the police Jaqueline reactive Jacqueline, And so I
Speaker 1: saw my sister Nicole and she came up and I
Speaker 1: was so happy to see her. And this is like
Speaker 1: the part that probably bugs me the most about my trauma,
Speaker 1: because I went in, they brought me in the stretch
Speaker 1: shirt and then they were touching me everywhere for stab wounds,
Speaker 1: and then they were poking me, just not asking for permission,
Speaker 1: just doing whatever. And I was like being poked and prodded,
Speaker 1: and I saw my mom and I was just screaming
Speaker 1: at the top of my lungs and being like Mom,
Speaker 1: and I could see her looking at me and she
Speaker 1: wanted to be with me, but they were just like no,
Speaker 1: you can't go in there, and so I was literally
Speaker 1: like screaming this whole time, just looking at my mom.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, Tera, And it just was so hard
Speaker 1: because after this attack happened, I literally don't have cont
Speaker 1: roll over my body now and then, so they did
Speaker 1: all that stuff to me, and I basically told him,
Speaker 1: I'm like, for me to be here, you have to
Speaker 1: give me some you have to give me anxiety meds
Speaker 1: because I'm not going to be able to be here,
Speaker 1: and they gave me a bunch of like other stuff.
Speaker 1: That sense of no consent after the history you've had
Speaker 1: with trauma throughout your life, you said, sexual abuse and
Speaker 1: physical abuse and all of that, that idea of consent becomes,
Speaker 1: especially at such an exquisitely painful time of your life.
Speaker 1: It really speaks to the need for that trauma informed
Speaker 1: care in those emergency settings. So that would have gone
Speaker 1: You were already so terrified. You've been through so much
Speaker 1: that something like that small things go a very long way.
Speaker 1: So I'm so sorry. My session with Terra and Collier
Speaker 1: will continue after this break. We forget it's how important it,
Speaker 1: especially those early hours right after that level of trauma,
Speaker 1: how a person experiences. Those systems and the people in
Speaker 1: those systems can be a game changer in terms of
Speaker 1: how a person heals. Another question I do have is
Speaker 1: how soon were you because you're coping with fear and
Speaker 1: your own body having to be explored and acted on medically,
Speaker 1: and you don't have the support you have you initially
Speaker 1: you couldn't even see your mother any of that, how
Speaker 1: soon did you find out what the outcome was for John?
Speaker 1: And how did you feel about that? So it's a
Speaker 1: little hazy because I feel like in the hospital I
Speaker 1: found out that they sent John to another hospital right away.
Speaker 1: They told me they revived him, and so I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: I mean that's actually something in my favor too, because
Speaker 1: if I would have been charged with it, it would
Speaker 1: have been attempted murder instead of murder, you know. But
Speaker 1: in my head, I was like, it's self defense. There
Speaker 1: was no question of it turning out that way. And
Speaker 1: I get questions all the time now where people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: why did you dispose all that information? Why did you like?
Speaker 1: And I was like, because I was innocent. This goes
Speaker 1: to something that you know for me, is it never cees.
Speaker 1: This amaze me. The Internet's a cruel place. But you
Speaker 1: have been criticized in online spaces. Here you're saying that
Speaker 1: day people, why did you share the information just on
Speaker 1: that day? Here you are in a state of shock
Speaker 1: and you are actually quite controlled, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of what you were saying, and you were getting criticism
Speaker 1: since then, and I think this has been both of
Speaker 1: you have to share your stories and you've been criticized.
Speaker 1: I've got to tell you, there's a rage that comes
Speaker 1: up in me that actually freezes me for a minute.
Speaker 1: I have to put the stuff down when I see
Speaker 1: the criticism folks like you and people who share their stories,
Speaker 1: because it's to sharing the stories that actually is what
Speaker 1: has to happen. That you're standing, that you're doing, that
Speaker 1: you're living, that you're thriving, and yet you are you are,
Speaker 1: You've vote, both been changed, you vote, both been changing, criticizing.
Speaker 1: It's interesting and it was talking to tire about this
Speaker 1: the other day. It's people are so quick to excoriate
Speaker 1: you in these circumstances, but I feel that it's a
Speaker 1: defense mechanism for them because it is so hard to
Speaker 1: wrap your head around something like this happening to an individual,
Speaker 1: whether it's a five year old woman, a twelve year
Speaker 1: old child. What have you that their rationalogists blame the
Speaker 1: victim and just okay, you shouldn't have done this. It's
Speaker 1: almost angered that if people have had or criticism that
Speaker 1: they've had of both of you for sharing your story. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: how has that affected you? I've called out a few
Speaker 1: people too, And something that I realized is it's either
Speaker 1: this person that hasn't been through the situation at all,
Speaker 1: has had a sheltered life, or it is this person
Speaker 1: that's actually in this situation now and it's making excuses,
Speaker 1: or it's the psychopath, or you know, how did it
Speaker 1: affect you when you are putting yourselves in such a
Speaker 1: vulnerable state of sharing? Just again, Terra, I am in
Speaker 1: such a gratitude and humbled by your willingness to share
Speaker 1: your story here. It is humble. It's the only word
Speaker 1: that comes to me right now. And the vulnerability that
Speaker 1: brings out for you and call your I've heard you
Speaker 1: share your story and the humility and vulnerability there. How
Speaker 1: does that affect you when all you're doing is sharing?
Speaker 1: That not the why. I don't care about the why
Speaker 1: of the trolls. I haven't. I don't. That's the that's there.
Speaker 1: But how did it affect you? How has it affected
Speaker 1: your healing and your mental health? So going back to
Speaker 1: the stocking, it feels triggering because of that, Like there's
Speaker 1: people that call me killers, and then I'm like, I
Speaker 1: did have to take a life and that's that's so hard,
Speaker 1: But I'm here because of it, and I have empowered
Speaker 1: so many other people to fight back or get out
Speaker 1: of a toxic relationship. So there's really like a purpose.
Speaker 1: There's this is my dharma, you know you absolutely Also
Speaker 1: you've also protected his next victim because there was going
Speaker 1: to be somebody else, you know that. They mean that's
Speaker 1: that that was it was a given. And in fact,
Speaker 1: why have you even have been called since the Hiven
Speaker 1: years that the grooming of that next victim may have
Speaker 1: already started at that point, but still there was this
Speaker 1: vindictiveness towards you. So just as a last question, then
Speaker 1: then you did find out John had died. What was
Speaker 1: that moment like for you? You know what's weird. I
Speaker 1: was happy because it meant my mom was safe. I
Speaker 1: think that's weird at all. And it didn't have to
Speaker 1: do with me not living in fear from him anymore.
Speaker 1: It was me really happy that he wouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to hurt anyone else, But I was worried about his
Speaker 1: daughter's I was worried about his immediate family because I
Speaker 1: understand that everyone has to warn yes, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to be I didn't really understand how anyone may have
Speaker 1: felt until like my abuser died, and then I was like,
Speaker 1: that was like a range of processing, But I was
Speaker 1: so relieved. I was like, I don't have to live
Speaker 1: in fear for anymore. I don't have to check my
Speaker 1: back as my and I'm just so happy. I'm so
Speaker 1: glad you shared it as replaced a relief, because I
Speaker 1: think that's always the pain in these relationships, is that
Speaker 1: this idea of equating relief with someone's passing, which is
Speaker 1: something we're told is never to be the case, right,
Speaker 1: And that you went to a place of empathy. I've
Speaker 1: felt for the other people who had to go to
Speaker 1: an experience of grief, but there's absolutely nothing weird about it.
Speaker 1: And I want to say again thank you Tara for
Speaker 1: sharing your story, for rounding out a story that in
Speaker 1: many ways was framed as relationship story and a red
Speaker 1: flag story and what happens when a bad guy's in
Speaker 1: a relationship and then oh and then her daughter killed him,
Speaker 1: and then it was done right, and it was very different.
Speaker 1: And I think that this idea of that it was
Speaker 1: your mom and him were only together a short period
Speaker 1: of time. You did weigh in this was not a
Speaker 1: bunch of people naively being played. But how it affected you,
Speaker 1: how it continues to affect you, but also how it's
Speaker 1: also galvanized you in your own life to again derive
Speaker 1: meeting and purpose from is really extraordinary. But also acknowledging
Speaker 1: that trauma has it affects a person every single day,
Speaker 1: and even today right here in the studio, there were
Speaker 1: moments when you could feel that happening to you and
Speaker 1: recognizing that's part of your journey. So I can't thank
Speaker 1: you enough, And do you have questions for me before
Speaker 1: we transition over to call your story? Well, first, thank
Speaker 1: you so much and thank you for having me on today.
Speaker 1: I love to ask this question because a lot of
Speaker 1: people ask me what is the difference between a psychopath
Speaker 1: and a sociopath. It's an interesting question and I'm going
Speaker 1: to try not to get to pedantic and professory with it,
Speaker 1: She said pedantic, Yes, I did see. Yeah, so somebody
Speaker 1: you gotta fit pedantic into every conversation. Right. So here's
Speaker 1: the thing. Psychopathy and sociopathy neither of them are actually
Speaker 1: straight up clinical terms. The diagnostic term for psychopathy is
Speaker 1: something we call anti social personality disorder. It's a terribly
Speaker 1: named disorder, but it captures clinically and diagnostically this thing
Speaker 1: that actually ascribes to the personality model of called psychopathy. Okay,
Speaker 1: so with psychopathy, you have a lot of the things
Speaker 1: you'd see in narcissism, lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, but
Speaker 1: there's a chronic coldness, aloofness, callousness, exploitativeness, manipulativeness. They a
Speaker 1: psychopath has no capacity for intimacy, empathy, or depth of
Speaker 1: human relationship, none whatsoever. They have no remorse for their
Speaker 1: bad behavior. That's different than narcissism. Narcissistic people actually do
Speaker 1: feel remorse. They know how to work systems. They stay
Speaker 1: very cool, actually at times when you would think other
Speaker 1: people would be quite explosive. We'll talk about the sociopaths
Speaker 1: in a moment. They can actually be typically but not
Speaker 1: always cool, calm and collected because they don't experience anxiety.
Speaker 1: It's really believed to be that the anxiety systems, the
Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system activation, and a psychopath is dialed down,
Speaker 1: which is why in some ways they're kind of your person.
Speaker 1: If you need someone who's going to stay totally cool,
Speaker 1: like in a situation of combat or a really difficult
Speaker 1: business decision, or even a patient bleeding all over an
Speaker 1: operating table, they will actually stay quite cool. That protection
Speaker 1: against anxiety, as it were, usually doesn't do them any favors,
Speaker 1: certainly doesn't do other people favors. And that's why you
Speaker 1: see like psychopaths and CEO positions and leadership positions, because
Speaker 1: they're able to destroy anyone they need to get to
Speaker 1: the top and seem very cool and put together. They
Speaker 1: tend to be quite parasitic in their lifestyle. So we
Speaker 1: see aliases, we see deceit, lies, and an unbelievable capacity
Speaker 1: to lie to someone's face. And whereas the rest of us,
Speaker 1: if there was a lie detector on us, it would
Speaker 1: look like, you know, like a person having a heart
Speaker 1: attack on an e k G. They stay pretty calm.
Speaker 1: So that and for example, a lie detector type test
Speaker 1: is actually not useful with a psychopathic person. That's a
Speaker 1: psychopath calm, cool, collected, callous and different, unempathic, no capacity
Speaker 1: for intimacy, and they're motivated only by power, pleasure, and profit.
Speaker 1: And people will serve one or all of these functions
Speaker 1: to them. But that's it now. Sociopathy is not a
Speaker 1: clinical term at all. It's a term that comes actually
Speaker 1: more from the sociological and criminological kind of literature, sort
Speaker 1: of reflects reflects a style more than even psychopathy. It's
Speaker 1: not as well articulated as a theory. It doesn't hang
Speaker 1: together as much. A psychopathic person almost doesn't understand and
Speaker 1: rules and regulations. If they don't work for them, they
Speaker 1: may be surprised and say there's a rule against that, Well,
Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense. For a sociopathic person, they know
Speaker 1: there's a rule and they break it. They understand the rule,
Speaker 1: but for reasons such as entitlement, they don't believe the
Speaker 1: rule should apply to them. Sociopaths also tend to be
Speaker 1: a bit more reactive. We tend to be more disregulated,
Speaker 1: They tend to be messy. There are two parts of
Speaker 1: the story you shared about John that almost struck me
Speaker 1: as more sociopathic than traditionally psychopathic, and that was the
Speaker 1: driving the car into the gate and setting fire to
Speaker 1: the car. That's a little bit more reactive then we
Speaker 1: would typically see in psychopathy. But psychopathy sociopathy both there's
Speaker 1: a really strong, focused, unvindictive nous. They're almost paranoid in
Speaker 1: the sense of everyone's out to get me, I've got
Speaker 1: a target on my back. They're the people who have
Speaker 1: someone taste their food or something like that. There's that
Speaker 1: kind of again, it feels like a low grade paranoia,
Speaker 1: whereas the psychopath and will notice like somebody's looking at me,
Speaker 1: and then they will create a plan to get revenge
Speaker 1: on that person to sociopathal punch him in the face
Speaker 1: right in the moment. There's that's the difference, and so
Speaker 1: it's socio sociopathy is messier, more combative psychopathy. There's a
Speaker 1: planned fulness, almost a premeditated nature to their rage. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I also wonder if maybe John was more reactive
Speaker 1: in those moments because he would also shoot himself up
Speaker 1: with testosterone. So testosteron is a funny one, and there's
Speaker 1: an interesting literature even on what that use of testosterone does.
Speaker 1: The answer is it's not good, you know, and I think,
Speaker 1: unfortunately there are some people out there who are just
Speaker 1: handing it out and should not be. And if you
Speaker 1: go to a legitimate physician, a true trained and ethical endocrinologist,
Speaker 1: they would be taking a very different stance on that.
Speaker 1: You even see it in a narcissistic kind of play,
Speaker 1: that they're so angry for a psychopath. That might tend
Speaker 1: to be more messy. But if he was doing it,
Speaker 1: let's say he set the car on fire to send
Speaker 1: her a message your next kind of thing, that's more psychopathic. Okay, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that was a message where share, So that feels more psychopathy.
Speaker 1: I've never met John. I don't know who he is,
Speaker 1: I thank goodness, and never sat in a room with him.
Speaker 1: But based if I was, like I always say, if
Speaker 1: I was a graduate student taking my clinical exam and
Speaker 1: all the facts of this case and everything I've learned
Speaker 1: of John over the years was put in front of me,
Speaker 1: I would put my good money on psychopathy. It just
Speaker 1: was the alias is over time, the shape shifting, the identities,
Speaker 1: the numerous people left in his wake, the short of
Speaker 1: shady life history, all of it adds up much more
Speaker 1: because it's so historic, and he was even sound like
Speaker 1: he was not a good kid. What we look for
Speaker 1: in psychopathy is the childhood stuff, so theopathy not as much.
Speaker 1: But in psychopathy you need that prior to age fifteen,
Speaker 1: even prior to age twelve, acting out violence against each other,
Speaker 1: against others, harming animals, setting fires, theft, truancy, bullying. You
Speaker 1: tend to see that in psychopathy, not necessarily the case
Speaker 1: in sociopathy. So I hope that clarifies. Definitely, Okay, So
Speaker 1: there's the difference. It's a lot of it has to
Speaker 1: do with theoretical stuff. Psychopathy is a very well articulated theory.
Speaker 1: Sociopathy is still a little bit more of a hazy
Speaker 1: theory and a terminology used more by criminologists and sociology. Yeah,
Speaker 1: me an examine that later, the professor and me will
Speaker 1: never die. So so thank you again. These are my
Speaker 1: takeaways from Terra's story. Terror story reminds us that we
Speaker 1: have the right to feel the way we feel about
Speaker 1: someone knew, we meet and who is part of the
Speaker 1: life of someone in our life, such as the new
Speaker 1: partner of a family member or a friend. Terror recalled
Speaker 1: that she felt that the way she felt either had
Speaker 1: to be in line with her sister's opinion or with
Speaker 1: her mother's experience. Something that we can all strive toward
Speaker 1: is to understand that we have the right and frankly,
Speaker 1: the responsibility to allow ourselves to have our own experience
Speaker 1: of an other person. By doing this, we are able
Speaker 1: to become more honest with ourselves, set better boundaries, and
Speaker 1: be more discerning in our next takeaway. One thing that
Speaker 1: Terra's story reminds us of and that repeats in these
Speaker 1: stories is the role of isolation in maintaining toxic relationships.
Speaker 1: It is a key dynamic in relationships with narcissistic or
Speaker 1: psychopathic people. As Terra's clarity and even simply her presence
Speaker 1: in her mother's life became clear, his goal was to
Speaker 1: isolate her. For people who may sense that this is
Speaker 1: happening to them, finding ways to remain in touch with
Speaker 1: the person in the relationship in any way you can
Speaker 1: is really important. However, also to recognize the limitations you
Speaker 1: may be facing and to also protect yourself. It's not
Speaker 1: an easy balancing act. Tera attempted to find that balance
Speaker 1: and even tried paradoxical approaches like letting her mother know
Speaker 1: she was willing to get to know John. In my
Speaker 1: next takeaway, one thing that jumped out about terror story
Speaker 1: is the need for trauma informed care in all settings.
Speaker 1: After experiencing a violent assault, Terror felt as though she
Speaker 1: wasn't able to set a boundary for herself. It's a
Speaker 1: wake up call for anyone in health or human services
Speaker 1: of any kind to always check in with the person
Speaker 1: we are helping and simply ask for permission and honor
Speaker 1: how important it is for a person who has endured
Speaker 1: trauma to have that sense of control over themselves and
Speaker 1: their bodies. In my next takeaway, the after effects of
Speaker 1: trauma don't just spontaneously dissipate. Healing from trauma requires self compassion,
Speaker 1: access to mental health services, patients from of people around
Speaker 1: the survivor, and an awareness of how trauma impacts the
Speaker 1: mind and the body. If you are a supporter of
Speaker 1: someone enduring trauma or have experienced trauma yourself, be patient,
Speaker 1: educate yourself, and recognize that our bodies and minds hold
Speaker 1: trauma and that therapy is a necessary tool to recover.
Speaker 1: In our next episode, we will be hearing Collier stories
Speaker 1: his story of trauma and having to navigate a lifetime
Speaker 1: of loss as a result of the toxic patterns of
Speaker 1: behavior in his father. Their stories are so different, and
Speaker 1: yet they are linked. Both are the difficult and confusing
Speaker 1: experiences of having to make sense of personality styles and
Speaker 1: related behavior that magnified the harms of what they had
Speaker 1: already experienced. Stay tuned because if you aren't familiar with
Speaker 1: his story, it is powerful and devastating. A big thank
Speaker 1: you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethrow,
Speaker 1: Ellen Rakitin, and Dr Rominey de Vassila. And thank you
Speaker 1: to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa,
Speaker 1: and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our
Speaker 1: editors and sound engineers Devin Donnaghe and Calvin Bailiff.