1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Storytelling is really powerful, and that we're all sort of 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: trying to process so much of what's going on. And 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: if you reach back with stories as old as time, 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: you find some circularity, you find some hope in the 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: sense that, yeah, we've come through very, very terrible things before, 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: and even if not all of us make it, but 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: the stories will outlive us. 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 2: From Futuro Media, It's Latino Usa. I'm Maria Ino Rosa. 9 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: Back in February of this year, Edwige Dante Kott made 10 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: a visit to the class I was teaching at Barnard College. 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: She shared a message with my students which was all 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 2: about owning our space and our voice in this country 13 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 2: as writers of color and of conscience. Was the last 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 2: guest I had in person in my classroom before the 15 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: pandemic changed our way of life, and her words stuck 16 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: with me, especially now at a time when the United 17 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 2: States is once again facing a racial reckoning. People all 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 2: over the world are on the streets, owning their space, 19 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 2: owning their voices, and demanding change. Duige is an award 20 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: winning author of several books, including her debut nineteen ninety 21 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 2: four novel Breath Eyes Memory, about a young Haitian Girl 22 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: reuniting with her mother in New York City, and her 23 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven memoir Brother I'm Dying, which goes 24 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: into detail about the death of her own uncle, who 25 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: was eighty one years old when he died in an 26 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: immigrant tension facility in Florida. Her latest book is titled 27 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: Everything Inside. It's a collection of short stories where Idueg 28 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: explores how people come to terms with death, among other themes. 29 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: Her reflections and writing on the immigrant experience, Haitian American 30 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: identity and loss has gained her many awards, including the 31 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: MacArthur Genius Award, the Langston Hughes Medal, and the Neustat 32 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: International Prize for Literature. We wanted to check in with 33 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: Aduej and get her insight on the times we're living 34 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 2: through right now. In our conversation, Adwig, who by the way, 35 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: I've known for over twenty five years, reached back to 36 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: several cases of police violence against black men and women 37 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: in New York City in the nineteen eighties and nineties, 38 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: cases that echo the current moment of today. Dueg Dante 39 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: car welcome back to you know, USA. 40 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much for having me. 41 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: Just wanted to kind of start out with you, kind 42 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: of just checking in on you. You're a mom, you're 43 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: a wife, you're a writer, you're a professional, you're but 44 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: in your heart, how are you doing right now? 45 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: I'm doing all right personally, but I think, like so 46 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: many of us, you know, my heart is troubled. There 47 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: are so many points of concern right now. In addition 48 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: to the pandemic. We have watched the recent horror of 49 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: the public execution of George Floyd. Before that, we heard 50 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: about the home invasion murder of Breonna Taylor and Ahmad Arbery. 51 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: You preceded that, and in a long list of police 52 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: killings that go back for me and my youth, to 53 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: useph Hawkins. 54 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 3: Benson Hurst, Brooklyn, nineteen nine. For many it conjures memory 55 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 3: is of one of the most painful racial incidents in 56 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 3: New York City's history, the killing of sixteen year old 57 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: Yusuf Hawkins. 58 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: So you have the pandemic, and then you have this 59 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: reoccurrence in the middle of the pandemic of systemic racism 60 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,679 Speaker 1: and its most visible form. And I am, of course 61 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: worried about the spikes of COVID in the Caribbean, in 62 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: Latin America and particularly in Haiti. So there's a lot 63 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: to think about. There's a lot to be concerned about, 64 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: and as my mama would say, there's a lot to 65 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: pray about. 66 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 3: So it Dweeds. 67 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: You talked about how all of these protests that you're 68 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: seeing have really brought up a lot of memories because 69 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: you grew up in Brooklyn after you arrived there when 70 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: you were twelve, and people forget that. In the eighties 71 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: and nineties, and I covered these stories, New York City 72 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: was a very divided place. Brought up the murder in 73 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine of Yusef Hawkins. He was a young 74 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: black teenager who was killed by a mob of white 75 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: teenagers in benson Hurst, Brooklyn. He was literally just at 76 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: the wrong place, at the wrong time, in the wrong 77 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: neighborhood because he was black. There was also the nineteen 78 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 2: eighty four murder of Eleanor Bumpers. She was an elderly 79 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 2: disabled black woman who was shot and killed by police 80 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 2: when they tried to a victor from her own apartment 81 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 2: in the Bronx. There was also this terrible case in 82 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven. This was the brutal assault of Abner 83 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: Louima Haitian American from Brooklyn who is sodomized by a 84 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 2: police officer in a precinct in Brooklyn, and Amadu Diallo 85 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: from Guinea shot at nineteen times in a hail of 86 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 2: forty one bullets in nineteen ninety nine. You were in Brooklyn, 87 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: you were in New York City. We have lived through 88 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 2: this before, and I thought we had made progress. 89 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 3: Yes, you know. 90 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: Actually this week I've been thinking about it a lot, 91 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: and I have spoken about it to my three brothers. 92 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: I was twenty years old when Yusef Hawkins was murdered. 93 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: Yusef Hawkins, I think was for me the first time 94 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: that I started following very closely, in part because he 95 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: was the same age as one of my brothers and 96 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: immigrant parents. Not all, but many immigrant parents harbor this 97 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: illusion that if they're black, you was born or foreign 98 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: born child, is polite, works hard in school, does all 99 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: the right thing that they might be able to, you know, 100 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: escape the brunt of American racism. But for my parents, 101 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: that case just did something my parents and myself. For 102 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: the first twelve years of my life, I had grown 103 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: up under a brutal dictatorship. The d value dictatorship in Haiti. 104 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: So there's a kind of caution about authority and about vigilantes, 105 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: about mobs, and so you come with that with that 106 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: fear already. But I remember after you, Suph Hawkins died, 107 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: I decided my brothers and I were going to the protests. 108 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: So there was a big march I think of September 109 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine in downtown Brooklyn where they were attempting. 110 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 3: To cross the bridge to march to City Hall. 111 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: And I remember looking over at them during the march 112 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: and thinking would I be marching for them one day? 113 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: And so of course that whole notion of like the 114 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: good immigrant being exempt from police violence was shattered by 115 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: the police shooting of people like i'm Adudiallo, and then 116 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: there was the atrocious abuse. 117 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: Of Abner Luima. All of that. 118 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: You know, we matched a lot. Even my parents, who 119 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: were not very political people at all, went to one 120 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: of the protests at that time. So it was a 121 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: very volatile and really urgent seeming time. So there are 122 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: echoes of the protests then here, but now to see 123 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: the whole range of different people and young people at 124 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: these current protests is very encouraging. 125 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 3: You know, there was this. 126 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: Really beautiful image that I saw the other day of 127 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: a protest in New York of young Paitian and Dominican 128 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: people marching side by side in the protest, and that 129 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: was just so heartening to see, Like all the coalitions 130 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: that are built and think of this, Maria, we've all 131 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: been inside out homes for the most part, right, sir, 132 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: essential workers, We've been inside. And this pandemic that we've 133 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: been hearing about that can kill us, that has killed 134 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: so many people. I know, but if that couldn't keep 135 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: people in, one cannot emphasize the urgency of that enough 136 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: that everybody who steps out on the street is saying 137 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: that this is so important that I'm potentially risking my 138 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: health to stand out on the street and protest. 139 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: You brought up those recent images of the Haitian flag 140 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: right next to the Dominican flags and these protesters linking 141 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 2: arms in a message that is saying, you know, black 142 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: lives matter. So what are you thinking in terms of 143 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 2: Latini Dad, Latin X people and the conversation about anti 144 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: blackness that runs deep in Latin America and the Caribbean. 145 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: Well, thankfully the young people are already having that conversation right. 146 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: But I would say to folks, my folks, my people, 147 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: is that we are seen and we have seen what 148 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: anti blackness does. From this very concrete moment of this 149 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: man being suffocated on the ground, to people being shot 150 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: in their cars when they're pulled over, people being shot 151 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: in the back, and the stories that we don't see 152 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: but hear about the you know, if Sandra Bland I. 153 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 3: Mean woman who was found dead in a Texas jail 154 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 3: sale three days after being arrested during a traffic stop, we. 155 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 1: Saw at the beginning of the end of her life. 156 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: For Breonna Taylor, Louisville police shot and killed twenty six 157 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 2: year old Breonna Taylor in her apartment. 158 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: The women we hear less about, we've seen what anti blackness. 159 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: Does, might perpetuate that. 160 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: The people who are still clinging to that, you know, 161 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: to this notion and the colorism, the anti blackness, that 162 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: they will follow the example of the young people, so 163 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: that hopeful, thirty years from now, we won't be in 164 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: the same place again. 165 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: Coming up on Latino Usay, my conversation with writer Edwige 166 00:11:17,400 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: Dante Kat continues stay with us, Yes, Hey, We're back, 167 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: and recently Duige Danticatt wrote in The New Yorker and 168 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: in the Miami Herald about the looming arrival of COVID 169 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: nineteen to Haiti. She detailed how Haitian immigrants were being 170 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 2: deported even after they tested positive for COVID nineteen and 171 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: how the aftermath could be catastrophic for the country she 172 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: was born in. Let's jump back to our conversation. In 173 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: the case of COVID, it really feels like this is 174 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: an illness that in. 175 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: The case of Haiti. 176 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: Do you think it came from the United States into Haiti? 177 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: Is that what we're talking about, a different kind of 178 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: transmission from the advanced modern world, the United States to Haiti, 179 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: a country that is still rebuilding from just the past earthquakes. 180 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that it came from the United States, 181 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: but there is one way that the United States is 182 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: spreading COVID to Haiti and other parts of Latin America 183 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: and the Caribbean. 184 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 3: It's to deportations. 185 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: They are deporting people who are coming from detention centers 186 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: where they might have been tested, or were not tested, 187 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: or were not able to social distance, and some had 188 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: tested positive. There've been several now deportation flights to Haiti 189 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: and then and there've been cases and Guatemala specifically, where 190 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: a large number of people have tested positive for COVID 191 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: after they were deported. They have been deporting people like this, 192 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: which is cruel and really unconscionable, given that they know 193 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: that if some of the richest countries in the world 194 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: all they've had trouble with their health system dealing with 195 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: COVID cases, that the places to which they're deporting people 196 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: like Haiti and other countries would not be able to 197 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: handle the spread of the disease that these deportations are 198 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: contributing to. 199 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: So in an op Eddweg for The Miami Herald, you 200 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: wrote that many immigrants are facing deportation, in fact, even 201 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: those who had tested positive for COVID. Nineteen you wrote 202 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: about this thing called ICE air as in Immigration Customs 203 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: Enforcement Air, you know, like the airline of immigration agents, 204 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 2: and how children as young as one year old were 205 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 2: being deported and Adwig, you know, it sounds like, even 206 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: as a writer who is writing some kind of horrible fiction, 207 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: that it could not be as bad as we're seeing 208 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: and living through right now. And so I'm just wondering 209 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: about your reaction to all of this, as a writer. 210 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: Well, there's so many things happening that are hard to 211 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: process at the moment that if you were writing as 212 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: fiction right, as a fiction writer, people would be like, nah, 213 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: that just makes no sense. The idea that a country 214 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: that has, you know, in spite of its history with imperialism, 215 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: regime change, invasions, occupations, has always been lecturing to the 216 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: world about human rights abuses right, and has sometimes used 217 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: those as motivation to invade militarily in other places, is 218 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: now really actively spreading a deadly disease to other countries 219 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: and on these flights or very small children and adults 220 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: and older adults, younger people, and a lot of the 221 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: people at least in the case of Haiti or now 222 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: find themselves in this world of both immigration and pandemic. 223 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: So it's interesting because I'm not sure if I've actually 224 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: ever told this to you, but in some ways I 225 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: feel these ties to you that bind me in some ways, 226 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: even though we rarely see each other and we're rarely 227 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: even in touch. But these kinds of binds to you, 228 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: and one of them to me is your uncle Joseph, 229 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: who you write about in your book Brother I'm Dying, 230 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: And he's the man who. 231 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 3: Basically raised you. 232 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: And he dies when he is in immigration custody at 233 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: the Chrome Detention Facility in Miami in the year two 234 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 2: thousand and four. This was when you know, detentions and 235 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 2: deportations were on the rise, but nobody was talking about this. 236 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: And when I was in that Chrome facility many years 237 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: later for a documentary, I actually met some of the 238 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 2: people who worked in the medical unit who had seen 239 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 2: your uncle, and I asked them, he was crying for help. 240 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: Why did you not help him? And you write, you know, 241 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: you've written and talked about the fact that you wanted 242 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 2: to get to see him and you couldn't make it, 243 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: and ultimately he died in the most in the loneliest situation, 244 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: which was that he was chained to a bed. And 245 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about, has your uncle Joseph come to you? 246 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 2: Have you been thinking about him in these times of 247 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 2: you know, again, of facing these multiple challenges. 248 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 3: Oh, I've been thinking about him so much. 249 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: And Marie, it's not that I couldn't make it, it's 250 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: they wouldn't let me see him. And so when my uncle, 251 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: I mean, it's yeah, it's just staggering to even think about. 252 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: It's been so many years. But I see echoes of 253 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: you know, of George Floyd's screams in his story because 254 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: he kept asking for his medicine, which the lawyer who was. 255 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 3: With him told us. 256 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: And when he became ill and started vomiting through a 257 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: tray hole he had in his neck from a larynx 258 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: removal surgery, he was told he was faking. Thought they 259 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, the medic who came to look at him 260 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: said he was faking, And eventually he was taken to 261 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: a prison award in a hospital where he died shackled 262 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: to a bed at eighty one years old. So I testified, 263 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: you know, before Congress about his case, along with other 264 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: families who had also lost loved ones and immigration custody 265 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: in similar ways. I was watching today a bit of 266 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: George Floyd's brother's testimony before a congressional panel. 267 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 4: George always made sacrifices for our family, and he made 268 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 4: sacrifices for complete strangers. He gave the little that he 269 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 4: had to help others. He was our gentle giant. 270 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: And watching you Filoris's Floyd's testimony, I realized that we 271 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: were he and I trying to do the same thing. 272 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: In that moment, we were trying to humanize our loved 273 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: ones in a public space because they had been murdered 274 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: by the state, really, right, And so what then happens 275 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: after that? You then have to be out there saying 276 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: over and over with all the new commitments that you've 277 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: taken on because you really really do not want this 278 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: to happen to somebody else's family. 279 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 3: But part of that job is also saying he was 280 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 3: a father, you. 281 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: Know, things that you you know, you really shouldn't have 282 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: to say after because someone was murdered, like he was 283 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: a minister, he was an uncle, he was a father, 284 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: he was loved, he was loved, he was loved, And 285 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: that becomes as much activism as the other kind of 286 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 1: activism that you end up taken on after you've lost 287 00:20:47,640 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: a loved one in that terrible way. 288 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 2: So I want to shift for a moment to talk 289 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 2: about something else that you write incredibly insightfully about. And 290 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 2: that's and obviously we're all thinking about this, which is 291 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 2: loss and the grieving that comes with loss. So I 292 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: live right here in New York City, which has been 293 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: the epicenter, and Atwich I have, like you, I have lost, 294 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 2: like quite a few people through COVID, and so I 295 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 2: want to turn to your latest work. It's your book 296 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: Everything Inside, and one of the short stories that you 297 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: sent her the issue of Loss and Grief. It's a 298 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: young woman, her name is Nadia, and she travels from 299 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: New York to Miami to meet her dying father. I'm 300 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: wondering if you can set us up for what you're 301 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: about to read right now. 302 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: So this is indeed a story of loss, and it's 303 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: called in the Old Days. And it's interesting now that 304 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: you know. I was talking to one of my daughters 305 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: the other day and I and I said in the 306 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: Old Days, and I realized that I meant like two 307 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: months ago. But before I read you this small excerpt, 308 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: I want to also acknowledge this kind of loss that 309 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: we have these days. I can't tell you now how 310 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: many zoom and Facebook funerals I have seen, which feels 311 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: like an extraordinary layer, another layer to the loss that 312 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: losses that we're feeling because we can't travel to comfort people, 313 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: you can't touch people, you can't really help people travel 314 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: through these rituals that have comforted us both at home 315 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: and in migration. The wakes, the you know, the repast, 316 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: and so much of that. So I think this lack 317 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: of rituals as we experienced loss has also been one 318 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: of the scarring aspect of this COVID nineteen moment. So 319 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: the story, this young woman is recalling the old days 320 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: as she's facing her father who she's traveled to see 321 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: but doesn't get there in time. 322 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: So the excerpt is from a story called in the 323 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 2: Old Days, and the book is titled Everything Inside. 324 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: My father's wife had her own version of the old 325 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: days and the old days she was telling me counk 326 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: shells blared for each person who died and the old days. 327 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: When a baby was born, the midwife would put the 328 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: baby on the ground and it was up to the 329 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: father to pick up the child and claim it as 330 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: his own. And the old days, the dead were initially 331 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: kept at home. Farewell prayers were chanted and morning dances 332 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: were performed at their joy filled wakes. When it was 333 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 1: time to take the dead out of the house, they 334 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: would be carried out feet first through the back door 335 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: and not the front, so they would know not to return. 336 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: Their babies and young children would be passed over their 337 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: coffins so they would shake off their spirits and wouldn't 338 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: be haunted for the rest. 339 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 3: Of their lives. 340 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: Then a village elder would pour rum on the graves 341 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: as a final farewell and the old days, she said, 342 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: I would have pronounced my father dead with my bereavement 343 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: whales to our fellow villagers, both the ones crowding the 344 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: house and others far beyond. Looking down at my father's 345 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: dead face and which I saw no trace of my own, 346 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: I wanted to grab him and shake him, force him 347 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: to wake up and explain to me his version of 348 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: the old days. He was a good man, a very 349 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: good man, my father's wife explained. I know he would 350 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: have wanted you to be part of his final rights 351 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: it reached. 352 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: That was really powerful. Thank you for reading that for us. 353 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: And I'm just wondering, finally, as we move forward, what 354 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 2: are you thinking about and is there anything that you're 355 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 2: holding on to in these moments to help you to 356 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 2: push forward. 357 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: I think back to my ancestors, right, I think back 358 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: to what they've had to overcome, and Haitian ancestry, certainly with. 359 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 3: Haiti, this small country fighting to. 360 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: Become the first black republic in the Western Hemisphere. 361 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 3: But I also think about common ancestors. 362 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: Right, all of those people who have fought and sacrificed 363 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: and have died for us all to have a better life. 364 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: So I stop to think about them, and I honor that, 365 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: and I try to hope that we can all live up. 366 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 3: To this moment in a way that honors them. 367 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: And my hope, you know, is that both with COVID 368 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: and in this moment that we're living now, is that 369 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: we all come out of this better. In there are 370 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: days when I feel like, yes, we're going to be 371 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,719 Speaker 1: better after this, and the other days when I'm not 372 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: so sure. But I think, you know, being a parent 373 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: certainly falls into how much hope you allow yourself to have, 374 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: and if you have, if you have kids, you have. 375 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 3: To have hope, right because there. 376 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: Has to be a future for them. And the hope 377 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: is one that I think my parents had with all 378 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: the sacrifices they made to come here, is that that 379 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: future will be a little bit better than the past. 380 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 2: Duig, it was great to speak with you again. I 381 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 2: send you a huge virtual big bear hug from New 382 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 2: York to Miami, same too, Duig Dante cat is an 383 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: award winning Haitian American writer based in Miami. Her latest 384 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: book is titled everything inside. 385 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 3: This episode was. 386 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: Produced by genese Yamoca and edited by Luis Trees. The 387 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 2: Latino USA team includes nir Masis, Sophia Parisaka, Antoi Carse 388 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 2: and Alexandra Salasad, with help from pral Peres. Our engineers 389 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 2: are Stephanie Lebou and Julia Caruso. Additional engineering this week 390 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: by Leah Shaw. Our director of programming and Operations is 391 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 2: Natalia Fiedenhotz. Our digital editor is Amandel Cantra. Our New 392 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: York wo Men's Foundation Ignite fellow is Julia Rocha. Our 393 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 2: interns are Sophia Sanchez and Marie Mendosa. Our theme music 394 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 2: was composed by Zeenie Rubinos. If you like the music 395 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: you heard on this episode, stop by Latinousa dot org 396 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: and check out our weekly Spotify playlist. I'm your host 397 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 2: and executive producer Maria Jojosa. Join us again on our 398 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: next episode. In the meantime, look for us on all 399 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 2: of your social media. Remember stay Sae Pastela, Proxima Cchao. 400 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 5: Latino Usa is made possible in part by the John D. 401 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 5: And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the Heising Simons Foundation, Unlocking Knowledge, 402 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 5: opportunity and possibilities more at hsfoundation dot org and the 403 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 5: Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the frontlines of social 404 00:28:58,240 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 5: change worldwide. 405 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 3: In the end, it'll just be Janice in US.