1 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: When I get on the bus that goes from Tallahassee 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: to Orlando, Florida, I don't think I've been inside a 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: church in eight years. And just to put your mind 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: at ease from the jump, this isn't a show about 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: my journey to religion. But I am taking the bus 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: to Orlando on a late January morning this year, headed 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: for one of the only spiritualist camps in the American South, 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 1: And in my head, I'm calling it Ghost Church. Oh, 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: name of the show already getting spicy. The coach bus 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: I'm on costs a little too much money, but it's 11 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: only four hours and it's pretty quiet, and no one 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: sits next to me, so it's fine. I don't think 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: anyone else on this bus is going to Ghost Church, 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: strictly based on the fact that the bus driver himself 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: praise before we get on the bus. He said, is 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: this so if you couldn't hear, he's saying, Amen, ride 17 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: the bus, Mr Gregory, ride the bus, And so we do. 18 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 1: We ride the bus all the way to the tourist 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: capital of the world, along with a camp of mystics 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: about a half hour off. The camp um heading to 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: is called Cassadega. It's just outside of Orlando and is 22 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: a spiritualist camp, a place where mediums commune with the 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: dead and have developed their own community since the late 24 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. The people around them find it to be 25 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: the devil's work or at best a little weird. The 26 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: tourists find it intriguing, and I want to know who 27 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: ends up in a place like this and why. I 28 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: was brought up between many religions and we kind of 29 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: believed in this stuff, but not completely. It's definitely not 30 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff that Mr Gregory would approve of. 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: The religion and called Spiritualism, occasionally referred to as American Spiritualism, 32 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: has been around in the official sense beginning in eighteen 33 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: forty eight, although it's central concept that the dead don't 34 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: die has been around for centuries. Their newer idea is 35 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: this that wanting to communicate with the dead is a 36 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: good thing. So in this show, I'm taking you on 37 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: two different trips. The first is how spiritualism got to 38 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: where it is now as a religion that came up 39 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: with the Shakers and the Mormons, but never really caught 40 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: on in a meaningful way due to repeated scandal or 41 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: a religion that was begun completely by accident by two 42 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: preteen sisters, as either divine intervention or, as many, including 43 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: the sisters themselves, have suggested, a prank that turned into 44 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: one of the only ways that an unmarried, lower middle 45 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: class woman could make a name for herself. The second 46 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: journey is the one I took to Cassadega this year, 47 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: where I got a chance to meet people in person, 48 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: interview them, get to know what it's like to be 49 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: a medium, and figure out what the funk is going 50 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: on there and how in the short history of American 51 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: spiritualism so much has changed, And of course I get 52 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: to talk to the ghost. What I will disclaim at 53 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: the beginning of all of this is that I don't 54 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: not believe in the concept of spirit. It's called spirit 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: in the West, or chi or sock t in the East. 56 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: I'm open to it. So this podcast isn't an endorsement, 57 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: but I do find it important in my work and 58 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: in my life in general to be open to things 59 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: and take them seriously and report what I'm seeing and 60 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: noticing and feeling as I go through that process. So 61 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: there's a lot of ship I don't like about spiritualism, 62 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: but there's a lot of ship that I do, and 63 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: most of it I want to just present to you 64 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: to draw your own conclusions. I don't particularly care what 65 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: you believe, and I won't force or harp anything that 66 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: I believe on you or don't. This is a show 67 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: about an endangered American legion, how it came to exist, 68 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: who's drawn to it, and whether there's really any chance 69 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: that will stick around. If you don't like it, you 70 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: can take it up with the ghosts. Oh no, do 71 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: I believe in ghosts? The show is starting good. That 72 00:04:24,960 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: closes o for reasons I don't completely understand myself. All 73 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: roads have been pulling me to Florida for months, and 74 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: when one is pulled to Florida, it's natural to want 75 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: to pull back. There's this feeling of are you fucking 76 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: kidding me? That's not very nice? Have I not suffered 77 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: enough in this life? But the thing is, the places 78 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: that are a common punchline in the way that Florida 79 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: is are usually pretty interesting places with pretty fucked up people, 80 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: and not for nothing, almost always have free popcorn in 81 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: their bars. I'm from a place like that too. Unfortunately, 82 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: for Death and for Florida, it was in just a 83 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: funked up enough headspace to consider going. So let's get 84 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: started with some ground rules. What is spiritualism and what 85 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: isn't spiritualism. I've been to Cassadego once before with my 86 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: mom in It's not something I would talk about much 87 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: where I live in Los Angeles, and in part because 88 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,679 Speaker 1: it's such a Southern California cliche, and in part because 89 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: it is the best way to start a conversation with 90 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: someone extremely frustrating. I try not to be self conscious 91 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: about it. You know, it's my It's my personal belief 92 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: that as long as you don't literally run your life 93 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: by tarot cards and crystals, they're really no more harmful 94 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: than a hobby like journaling or video games, or my 95 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: favorite toxic trait that you're not allowed to say anything 96 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: about having a lot of guitar pedals. I like a 97 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: level with you. I've spent way too much money about 98 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: once a year getting my cards read, sometimes by someone 99 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: who I felt was really attuned to me, and more 100 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: often a failed actor aggressively pivoting into their new method 101 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: role of being fine with it. There's even years I've 102 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: gone twice. If I'm going through a breakup, you know, 103 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: I'll go twice. There's something comforting about it about imagining 104 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: your life in an order. Oh no, here's the tower 105 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: cards sudden of people. But okay, here's the Star card 106 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: that's renewal and and rest. You're right, I should go 107 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: across the street to the place where they serve eggs 108 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: like that. It's what the card said. During my last breakup, 109 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: I found going to online videos of cards read by 110 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: these upbeat young women who are cheering you on was 111 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: really comforting. They kind of sound like this, this is 112 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: Aso Taro. And in today's pick a card reading, we 113 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: are going to be looking at how your person is 114 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: currently feeling about you. And so by your person, I 115 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: mean ideally the person that you are thinking of. You 116 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: might find another person comes through, or you might find 117 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm describing your feelings. Okay, fine, that's maybe maybe it's 118 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: a little embarrassing, but you need it sometimes to cope, 119 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: you know. But none of this is spiritualism. I want 120 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: to be clear on that the general woo woo of 121 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: it all intersects with spiritualism, but I'm not talking about 122 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: something that broad because the idea has sort of spiraled 123 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: out in the last several decades. It's to the point 124 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: where the phrase I'm more spiritual than religious is kind 125 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: of a line that you hear from lapsed Catholics, but 126 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: spiritualism itself is actually very specific. This series will address 127 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: some of the cultures and ideas they pull from, going 128 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: back hundreds of thousands of years, the lore behind seances, 129 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: the appropriation of indigenous culture. The camp that I'm going 130 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: to considers itself uniquely American. Whether you consider that a 131 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: pejorative or not is up to you. I well, I'm 132 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: trying to put my opinions in this list, but obviously 133 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: it is. My name is Jamie Loftus, and I love 134 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: a freaky little American corner to wedge myself into. I 135 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: grew up between a lot of different religions. I was 136 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: baptized Catholic in a way that felt pretty mandatory, being 137 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: raised by two lapsed Catholics in New England. And well, 138 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: actually I've been sorting through my archives recently. This is 139 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: what it sounds like to be baptized in New England. 140 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: I'm glad to you, becker Father. Okay, who is this, Jamie, Jamie, 141 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: that's right, come right in, Please come right in, reach out, 142 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: all right, and this is Jamie Bethany. Jamie Bethany, I 143 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: baptize you in the name of the Father, and of 144 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: the Son and of the Holy Spirit. But by the 145 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: time I was forming sentient memories, we had already switched. 146 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: My dad left the church in the weekly sense when 147 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: his dad passed away, or transitioned to spirit in the 148 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: terms of spiritualism of ghost Church. So my mom and 149 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: I sort of hop scotched over to a Protestant Congregational 150 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: church that my cousins went to, and I liked it there. 151 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: It was one of the only churches in town where 152 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: queer people were welcome, where there was a gay priest. 153 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: It was fun, everyone was nice. I asked my mom 154 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: as she liked our church more than the one she 155 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: grew up in once and she sort of sighed and 156 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 1: was like, at least they have the lights on here 157 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, which I think is the second most two 158 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: thousands eras scathing takedown of the Catholic church in Massachusetts, 159 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: second only to Spotlight. But after about a decade of that, 160 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: we were bored, and my preteen frustration with the concept 161 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: of a confirmation class happened to line up with my 162 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: mom's midlife crisis where she got a tattoo and more relevant, 163 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: wanted to start exploring the spiritualist ideas that her childhood 164 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: best friend, my Annie Karen, had been exploring for years 165 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: with her husband, my uncle Dennis. I love my Auntie 166 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: and uncle. They had a house with a backyard that 167 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: just kind of smelled really good, and they had tarot 168 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: cards and runs and this huge cabinet that was carved 169 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: to look like a wizard. And these ideas were just 170 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: so different from anything that I'd ever heard about religion 171 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: or faith. And so once a year for my birthday, 172 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: I would get to go see my uncle Dennis and 173 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: get a reading. Sometimes he'd use runs, sometimes he'd use cards, 174 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: and I would sit quietly, like you do with relatives 175 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: you only see once a year, and I would just 176 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: listen to what each card meant and what that had 177 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: to do with what the fifth grade was going to 178 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: be like. One time we went to a pagan church 179 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: that they recommended that was outside. There were these rituals 180 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 1: that were led by women who talked to trees. And 181 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: maybe it was the harsh way that your eyes have 182 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: to kind of adjust from a completely dark church where 183 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: God is mad at you to standing outside where the 184 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: trees are giving you advice about middle school. But it 185 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: was a little overwhelming and we only went once and 186 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: after that we quit church altogether. But around this time, 187 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: in the mid two thousands, something was going on in 188 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: the US. There was this sudden increased interest in the 189 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: concept called spirit, the idea that we didn't die permanently 190 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: like atheist thought, but we also didn't go to heaven 191 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: or hell or were born into sin like the Catholic 192 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: Church said. The alternative was that after you die, you 193 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: sort of stay local. You watched the people you cared 194 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: about in life, you guide the living. There's a possibility 195 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: that you could even live again, take some time off, 196 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: and then live again and again and again. There were 197 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: suddenly these celebrity psychics, big names like James Van Prague 198 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: that it materialized in the late nineties, followed by your 199 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: TV personalities like Sylvia Brown and for me, John Edward 200 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: and crossing Over brought a medium from Long Island, not 201 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: to be confused with the Long Island medium into our 202 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: living room via this guy in a tight sweater and 203 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: glasses telling women who looked like my mom that the 204 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: dead aren't dead and that it's not scary. In pop culture, 205 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: the idea of spirit was kind of all over the place. 206 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: There were these more benevolent spirits. You know, you've got 207 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: Devin Sawa showing up to your dance at the end 208 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: of cal for with this vaguely Christian unfinished business, or 209 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: you've got the Catholic interpretation of spirit just absolute scumspewing 210 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: possession movies where your head turns around three hundred sixty 211 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: degrees and you yell at a poor Catholic priest, what 212 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: did they ever do? Well? Uh, you can google that. 213 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: In the religions I grew up around, the dead would 214 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: be judged and God was piste off. They tend to 215 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: view children as being born into sin and compel them 216 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 1: to spend their whole lives pulling themselves out of it. 217 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: But spiritualism takes the opposite tack. According to them, children 218 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: are born into infinite potential and love, and his potential 219 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: is only helped or harmed through their own actions in life. 220 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 1: So what is Ghost Church? That's what I wanted to 221 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: learn going into this series. What I knew is that 222 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: it's a religion, and it's a small all religion and 223 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: one that combines more elements of Christianity than I realized. 224 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: I was surprised to hear that, lacking a seminal text 225 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: of their own, spiritualists list the Bible ever heard of 226 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: her as their text. But most importantly, spiritualists don't believe 227 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: in heaven or hell. According to them, the dead remain 228 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: among us, rejoining the energetic flow of the universe that 229 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: surround us, and spiritualist mediums and healers are able to 230 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: see clairvoyance here Clare audience feel Clare Touch. I love 231 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: that one. It sounds like just like a cartoon character, 232 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: Claire touch and receive mental messages from spirit. They do 233 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: believe that Jesus existed, but not that he was a god. Instead, 234 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: he's repeatedly referenced as one of history's great spiritual healers 235 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: and mediums, referencing biblical canon like his returning to Earth 236 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: in spirit, is, ability to communicate with angels and ghosts, 237 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: and the very concept of the Holy Spirit as proof 238 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: that their religion is a part of the Christian expanded universe. 239 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: You may not be surprised to hear that a lot 240 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: of Christians are really not thrilled to hear this, but 241 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: as it evolved, American spiritualism went beyond diet Christianity minus 242 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: heaven and help plus ghosts. Nowadays, spiritualists come to the 243 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: religion from all kinds of religious backgrounds. Since the nineteen sixties, 244 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: Eastern religions have influenced modern spiritualists and slowly introduced reincarnation concepts, 245 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: with at least one medium working at Cassadaga now who 246 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: converted from Hinduism. There's also the New Age movement that 247 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: layers onto spiritualism very well, and that's an important thing. 248 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: The vast majority of spiritualists came from other religions, ones 249 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: that they were either traumatized by or didn't incorporate the 250 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: way they saw the afterlife, or didn't believe in mediumship. 251 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: I'll be talking to a number of mediums and community 252 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: members who range from lifelong former Atheists to former hardcore 253 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: Southern Baptists and what that transition looked like for them. 254 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: Spiritualism doesn't tend to be multigenerational. It's just as individual 255 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: and experience as the individual spirits that come through after 256 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: they're fascinatingly Christian feelings Sunday services. And yet they also 257 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: insist that there is a scientific basis for the religion 258 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: when I'm still trying to wrap my head around. This 259 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: is a quote from the National Spiritualist Association of Churches 260 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: Spiritualist manual quote. Spiritualism is a science because it investigates, analyzes, 261 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: and classifies facts and manifestations demonstrated from the spirit side 262 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: of life. Unquote. Ghost church is a holdover from the 263 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: industrial illusition in nearly every way. It has one foot 264 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: in classical religious ideas, the other in aspirational sort of 265 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: half proven scientific ideas. There's something about it that's optimistic 266 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: and a little half baked all at once. Okay, so 267 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: what isn't ghost church? Because when you bring up spirits 268 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: and you bring up a small community in Florida, the 269 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: first reaction you're going to get from most people is, well, 270 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: that sounds like a cult. And stay with me here. 271 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: It's not a cult, or at least not any more 272 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: of a cult than any other religion. And honestly, if 273 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: spiritualism was a cult, they'd probably be doing better numbers 274 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: in terms of membership and income. Spiritualism is a fringe religion, 275 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: and I hear you cult cult, It's not a cult. 276 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: I hear you again saying not a cult. Means cult, 277 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: and usually you'll be right. But Spiritualism is not a cult, 278 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: although it's formal numbers are small cult sized, one could 279 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: say small enough in fact, that the manual I was 280 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: just reading from admits on one of its first pages 281 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: that there aren't a lot of people involved, and that 282 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: there's really no concerted effort going on to change that. 283 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,239 Speaker 1: It says, quote, this manual is designed to be a 284 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: handbook for ministers, speakers, and students. It is hoped that 285 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: spiritualists generally will find it helpful in presenting the teachings 286 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: of spiritualism, and that in sections of our country where 287 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: there are few spiritualists and no mediums or speakers, it 288 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: will be an aid to willing workers in holding regular 289 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: meetings or other services. Unquote, this rhetoric is just too 290 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: chill to be a cult, but you don't need to 291 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: take my word for it. In her Cultish, Amanda Montell 292 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: breaks down the mechanics of language and classical recruiting techniques 293 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: of cult like atmospheres, religious or otherwise, ranging in severity 294 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: from really intense peloton instructors and multi level marketing schemes 295 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: all away to Jonestown and Heaven's Gate and she narrows 296 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: down these classic cult red flags, including things like quote 297 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: unquote truth telling, ceremonies to give the leaders as much 298 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: information about each individual as possible, complete immersion in the cult, 299 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: no clear time when rituals have begun or ended, behavioral 300 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: control think sleep deprivation, diet changes, schedule, dictation, the whole 301 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: nine yards. A charismatic central leader, usually a man, and 302 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: usually attracting young white women to the fold, where spiritualism doesn't. 303 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: There's a lot of white ladies, but there's no young 304 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: people really at all. Doomsday rhetoric when a leader's power 305 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: starts to slip, withholding information by minimizing or discouraging access 306 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: to non cult information, threats or forced isolation if one 307 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: tries to leave, and all of these emotions, stopping techniques 308 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: to suppress any doubt, and whether the ghost aspect of 309 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: all of this freaks you out or not. None of 310 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: these red flags really apply to Spiritualism at all, so 311 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: verdict not occult. There's a world in which I could 312 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: see them becoming a cult. I mean, after all, we're 313 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: kind of in this cultural moment where interest in communicating 314 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: with the dead, with mysticism, with pick a card, tero 315 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: readings on YouTube are at an all time high, and 316 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: the spiritualists who commune all over the country, mostly in 317 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: lily Dale, New York, and Cassadega, Florida, tick literally all 318 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: of these boxes. Spiritualism even blends a combination of religions 319 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: and buzzwords that should mean it's thriving. They borrow Eastern 320 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: principles like chakras, indigenous ideas like spirit guides on this 321 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: bedrock of diet, Christianity, and a belief in Jesus. Granted, 322 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: they don't use many of these beliefs particularly well, but 323 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: their batting average isn't any worse than a Gwyneth Paltrow type. 324 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: But as it is, Spiritualism has no interest in being 325 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: a cult, and they don't really have the runway to 326 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: make it that way anyways. A lot of the mediums 327 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: in Cassadega have day jobs. Most of them live in 328 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: the community but regularly leave to see outside family and friends, 329 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: go shopping, see movies, move about the world as regular people. 330 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: They don't have much of an alternative. There's no food 331 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: store in Cassadega, and the only restaurant there is open 332 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: four and a half days out of the week. Something 333 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: that becomes very problematic during my time. They're mediums make 334 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: their own schedules, and for regular attendees of the Spiritualist temple, 335 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: the parameters of when they are on and off ritual 336 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: wise are pretty clear. They go to weekly services, they 337 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: go to individual readings or scheduled classes. Members of the 338 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: church tend to join and leave the religion pretty often. 339 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: At one spiritualist church in Massachusetts, a vice president of 340 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: a dwindling congregation was the first to comfortably admit that 341 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 1: the people who come to our church tend to float 342 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: in during a difficult time in their lives, often when 343 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: they are a loved one, are struggling with illness mental 344 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: or physical, or while they're struggling with a loss, and 345 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: then they tend to leave, sometimes never heard from by 346 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: the church again. And so you got kind of the 347 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: opposite of a cult. You get a religion that appears 348 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: to be on a very slow decline. Those most involved 349 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: in spiritualism are the mediums themselves. In Cassadega, this means 350 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: taking part in a three to four year education process 351 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: that can't be done remotely. It means establishing yourself in 352 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: the community consistently for at least a year before qualifying 353 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: to live on campgrounds. It means demonstrating healing or mediumship 354 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: capabilities in public under supervision. They don't make it easy 355 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: to have this job, and so the majority of mediums 356 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: are either local to Florida with some free time after 357 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: work or around their families, or, as I would soon learn, 358 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: had left their previous lives to become mediums. A job 359 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: that here doesn't result much in the way of financial 360 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: stability or cultural acceptance. So why do people do it? 361 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: It's a question that I have had a somewhat difficult 362 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: time getting answered because for a small community, Cassadega is 363 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: very protective of their members from the press, meaning me. 364 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: There's this pr screening team that seems to consist of 365 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 1: basically everybody in town, all of whom must approve of 366 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: your presence before they will talk to you. I contacted 367 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: the camp several weeks in advance, and by the time 368 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: I was getting on a plane to Florida, they had 369 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: yet to decide whether they wanted me to come at 370 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: all or not. I was sitting at the airport eating 371 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 1: a very sad looking donut the week before Valentine's Day 372 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: to indicate yeah, things are going great, and my phone rings, 373 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: and for the first but not the last time, I 374 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: have this nervous response to see an area code from Florida. 375 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: On the other line is Pastor Deb, a woman from Jacksonville, Florida, 376 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: who serves as in this order, a pastor in Cassadega, 377 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,719 Speaker 1: the head of public relations for the Cassadega Spiritualist Camp, 378 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: and an I T specialist in Jacksonville who looks after 379 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: her elderly mother. We've been emailing back and forth for 380 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: around two weeks. Hi, I'm Jamie. I'm going to be 381 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: visiting the camp in early February. Would it be possible 382 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: to speak with someone? The answer was somewhat ambiguous. Can 383 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: I call you? Um? Sure, and so Deb calls me 384 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: twenty minutes before I get on a plane. She has 385 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: a thick but kind Southern accent, one that comes from Louisville, Kentucky, 386 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: where she grew up, not Florida. Mediums in Cassadega are 387 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: kind of like struggling character actors in Los Angeles, Like 388 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: barely any of them are from their most of them 389 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: moved with a desire to completely turn their lives around, 390 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: and they all kind of give the area this like 391 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: weird reputation. Deb is sweet but firm when she gives 392 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: me the rundown. Getting approval at Cassadega is not going 393 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,959 Speaker 1: to be easy, which is an amazing thing to hear 394 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: when you're literally about to get on a plane. I 395 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: put my phone on mute and deep throughout the rest 396 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: of the brownie batter doughnut while she gives me the 397 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: standard rundown of who she is and where she is. 398 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: She has past her deb She has been in Cassadega 399 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: since two thousand and six, she became a certified medium 400 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: in and she's currently vetting three different press requests. So 401 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: she apologizes for the delay and getting back to me. 402 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 1: Who am I? What am I doing? Comedian? Interesting? How 403 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: does that factor into things? The camp, she says, is 404 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: run by volunteers. They have a library, but it's only 405 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: open two hours a week. The camp doesn't want to 406 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: give anyone ongoing support with their little spiritualism project, thank 407 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: you very much. And there's a whole public relations committee 408 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: that doesn't meet until four days after I leave. So 409 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: there's absolutely no way that I will be approved to 410 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: talk to anybody or experience anything on the record at 411 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: this time. Essentially, I'm fucked. So Pastor deb gently sets 412 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: some ground rules with me. Of course, she can't prevent 413 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: me from visiting, but the mediums at the camp want 414 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: to get a better feeling of who I am before 415 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: they approve my presence whole sale. She encourages me to 416 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: experience Cassadega, meditate in Seneca Park, get a few readings 417 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: of the record. Of course, walk the historical path through 418 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: Colby Alderman Park, where the state of Florida recently installed 419 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: historical landmarks to tell the partial story of American spiritualism. 420 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: Take their historical tour, meet tourists in the nighttime spiritual 421 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: Encounter or photography tour real Thing, see Colby Lake at sunrise. 422 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: She's very passionate about her religion and tells me in 423 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: this amazing soft voice, continuity of life, connecting with spirit 424 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: is very important to us. Did I know that this 425 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: weekend was their Gala day fundraiser and that there would 426 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: be mediums speaking on everything from ghosts to self esteem 427 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: to a lighthearted recap of the Chinese New Year? I 428 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: assure her I do know this, and then I'll be 429 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: watching on zoom while a shuttle bus takes me from 430 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: a talk in Tallahassee to the Super Eight in Orlando. 431 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: I'll be staying at the night before visiting her church. 432 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: She seems gently optimistic about me. It doesn't sound like 433 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of journalists looking to report on the 434 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: camp in a positive sense with an open mind, But 435 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,719 Speaker 1: her recommendations are all made to me very much at 436 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: arm's length, generously. Her message was this, have a nice trip. 437 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: We're watching you. Good luck. I don't wish the experience 438 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: of feeling that your character is being quietly judged by 439 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: a group of psychics, healers and mediums who buy their 440 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: very job description, believe that they know whether your intentions 441 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: are good or not, and based on my initial reception, 442 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: it's unclear if Spirit is sending them the message that 443 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: I am. Pastor. Dub doesn't think of this as psychic surveillance, 444 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: though she assures me that the experience will be a 445 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: very relaxing one. She says, this will give you an 446 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: opportunity to just be well sure being under light surveillance 447 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: is still being technically, we do that all the time. 448 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: I want to circle back to one of the important 449 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: distinctions that keeps American spiritualism from being a cult that 450 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: lack of charismatic central leader, again ranging in harm from 451 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: the terrifying the Jim Joneses is the Keith rn aias 452 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: the Donald Trump's or in the non death cult sense, 453 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: your peloton instructor millionaires, you'r Gwyneth Paltrow's, your Bezos is 454 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: your Elon Musks. There is no real central figure in 455 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: modern spiritualism, which is unusual. Most major religions have central 456 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: figures and founders, and the crop of religion that Spiritualism 457 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: came up with. You've got Joseph Smith of the Mormons, 458 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: Elder White of the Seventh day Adventists, and Lee of 459 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: the Shakers, and on and on into today. Most religions 460 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: still have a top brass figure, whether that's the literal 461 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: pulpe of the Catholic Church, the chairman of the board 462 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: in scientology, the Dalai Lama. The list goes on. Spiritualism 463 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: has its founders, but no current leader, and that is 464 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: something that is very deliberately done. There's a lot of 465 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: figures that had a hand in making American spiritualism the 466 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: media frenzy turned religious fad, turned public joke turned low 467 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: key ghost church. It is now, but I'm going to 468 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: start with its two most central figures, Maggie and Kate Fox. 469 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: Here's how spiritualists acknowledge these figures. According to the National 470 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: spirit List Association of Churches, Spiritualist manual quote, spiritualism has 471 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: no beginning. Infinite intelligence is eternal, without beginning or end unquote. 472 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: But then they say this quote. We are gathered here 473 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: to celebrate a most important event that happened in a 474 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: humble cottage in the obscure village of Hydesville in the 475 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: state of New York, on the thirty one of March 476 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: in the year eighty eight, an event that was the 477 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: beginning of the now worldwide religious and scientific movement known 478 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: as modern spiritualism. It was on this day and in 479 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: this home, as you well know, that intelligent communication was 480 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: established between the young Fox sisters, who were mediums and 481 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: who were then living in this cottage with their parents, 482 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: and the discarnate spirit of a man who some years 483 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: before was murdered there unquote. And here's the real story 484 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: with less generalization and more citations. Huge shout out to 485 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: Barbara Weissberg here, author of the wonderful book Talking to 486 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: the Dead, The definitive Biography of Maggie and Kate Fox. 487 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: So let's get into it. There's a ton of information 488 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: available on the Fox Sisters, which is already a massive 489 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: feat for women of their time, or rather girls of 490 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: their time, because the founders of spiritualism were both very 491 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: young when the religion took off, because they weren't trying 492 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: to start the religion that would grow, consume, and destroy 493 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: their lives. The more showy, more money driven Spiritualism of 494 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds once claimed over seven hundred thousand publicly 495 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: associated members. For reference, there's around four thousand in the 496 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: u S today. Prominent members included Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, 497 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: Mary Todd Lincoln, Horace Greeley, and those who interacted ranged 498 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: from Henry Butler Yeats to Frederick Douglas to Harriet Beecher 499 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: Stowe to Harry Houdini. The Fox Sisters, who all of 500 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: these cultural figures would have known and many knew personally, 501 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: aren't brought up by New American spirituals very often, and 502 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: it's with good reason. By many they're remembered as irredeemable frauds. 503 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: The original debunked celebrity mediums. Maggie Fox full name Margaretta 504 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: was born in October of eighteen thirty three, and Kate 505 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: Fox full named Catherine in March of eighteen thirty seven, 506 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: so fourteen and a few days shy of eleven on 507 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: March thirty one, eighty eight. They were the youngest of 508 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: six born in Canada and recently having moved back to 509 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: the US. In the small community of Hydesville, New York, 510 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: a suburb of Rochester that no longer even exists, they 511 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: were staying in temporary housing while their father, John and 512 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: older brother David worked on constructing a permanent home nearby. 513 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: Maggie and Kate were the product of a second act 514 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: in their parents marriage. Their four older siblings, Leah, Maria, Elizabeth, 515 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: and David were all adults with families of their own. 516 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: Their parents, John David Fox and the sweet and eccentric 517 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: Margaret Smith then Fox, had had their first four children 518 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: between eighteen thirteen and eighteen twenty, later separating when John's drinking, gambling, 519 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: and philandering pushed Margaret to the edge and she left him. 520 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: She moved back in with her sister and continued to 521 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: raise the kids, telling them about their grandmother's seeing power. 522 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: Maggie and Kaith's Grandma was said to have slept walk 523 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: often in the middle of the night to stock spirits 524 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: she saw in a graveyard nearby, and was sometimes followed 525 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: by her husband. While Margaret raised the kids, John began 526 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: the work of trying to get his family back. The 527 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: kids all moved away as they aged into adulthood one 528 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: by one, but their father remained in touch and eventually 529 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: returned as a sober, disciplined, and enthusiastic Methodist, essentially an 530 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: intense Bible Christian with an emphasis on reformation and sobriety. 531 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: His effort at self improvement worked and Margaret took him back. 532 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: She had originally really regretted getting married as a teenager, 533 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: but she was impressed with the work that John had 534 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: done on himself, and the two moved across the border 535 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: from upstate New York to a small farm in Canada, 536 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: where they had two last children, Maggie and Kate. The 537 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: farm failed and the family moved back, leaving one of 538 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: their children, now married, Elizabeth Fox, behind in Canada. Interestingly enough, 539 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: Elizabeth also claimed that she had second sight and is 540 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: said to have correctly predicted that she would die at 541 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: only seven. Although in the eighteen forties how big of 542 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: a swing is that really? Anyways, Back in New York, 543 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: the kids were thrilled to be living near their older siblings, 544 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: their brother David, who had a wife and kids, their 545 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: sister Maria, who had married a cousin because eighteen forties, 546 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: and their oldest sister Leah, a single mom in her 547 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 1: mid thirties with a teenage daughter named Lizzie living nearby 548 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: in Rochester. It's kind of funny how siblings can have 549 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: the same parents but also have completely different experiences of them. 550 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: Leah was over a decade and a half older than 551 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: Maggie and Kate and had grown up with a single 552 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: parent and an absent alcoholic father, while Maggie and Kate 553 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: had grown up in a stable, sober, nuclear unit. But 554 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: their parents are the same people, just in very different 555 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: phases of their lives, and this same decade and a 556 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: half was marked by slow but steady social progress in 557 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: the historically progressive Rochester area. Leah had gotten married and 558 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: pregnant at fourteen, the age Maggie was in eighteen forty eight, 559 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: but the interceding years had made it socially acceptable for 560 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: kids to be kids longer, with more of an emphasis 561 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: on education and less of an emphasis on getting married young. 562 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: The Fox family was close and would remain us for 563 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: a long time, but it was complicated. They were lower 564 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: middle class. They were able to survive, but really only 565 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: check to check. And Maggie and Kate had this level 566 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: of education, stability, curiosity, and confidence that their older siblings 567 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: just hadn't had access to. So Maggie and Kate are 568 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: at the house on March one. The weather is bad, 569 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: the kids are bored, and one night their mom has 570 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: woken up by the girls crying out that there was 571 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: a spirit in the room. She believed what her daughter 572 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: had said about second sight, but she understandably treated her 573 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: youngest kids with some skepticism. After all, it was the 574 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: night before April Fool's Day. But the girls wouldn't let up, 575 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: saying that there was a spirit in the room with 576 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: them who had been banging on their walls and floorboards 577 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: in these sharp wraps. The raps were disorganized and inconsistent, 578 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,280 Speaker 1: but scary, and Maggie and Kate said that this spirit 579 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: had replied to them when asked questions in this Morse 580 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: code like way. It didn't take long for Margaret to 581 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: become convinced that they were telling the truth, and John 582 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: quickly was too. I always think this part is funny 583 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: because it's a it's a risk to call your neighbors 584 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: over so soon after moving to a new town about 585 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: there being a ghost upstairs. But the Foxes, they're just 586 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: built different. They don't care. They're going to call you. 587 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: So they call their neighbor Mary over to get her 588 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: opinion on whether there is or is not a ghost 589 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: haunting their teen girls. The neighbors were, to put it, kindly, 590 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: not into it. Maybe this all sounds a little weird 591 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: and old timing, you know, sure, people in the eighteen 592 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: forties in a rural area believing in ghosts. But we're 593 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: talking about a very specific moment in history here. We're 594 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: in up state New York, three months and mere miles 595 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: from where the Seneca Falls convention is going to take place, 596 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: becoming the seminal moment in starting the first wave of 597 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: feminism in the US with all of the white feminist 598 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: problems that came along with it. In this year, slavery 599 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: was still legal in the American South, and many in 600 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 1: Rochester were advocating for abolition, and Frederick Douglas would start 601 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,439 Speaker 1: his paper The North Star. It was a time where 602 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: science was becoming a more normalized part of life, and 603 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: inventions like sewing machines and ice cream, and ideas that 604 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: had less staying power and objective truth behind it, like 605 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: the skull measuring eugenic scam that is, phrenology, and the 606 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 1: concept of electromagnetic fluid, a new theory about how spirit 607 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: could exist within your own blood and create all of 608 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: the matter that surrounds you. And at this same time, 609 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: there was a lot of religious changes going on. New 610 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: religions like Shakerrism, Mormon as a and Christian science became 611 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: popular during a second Great Religious Reformation in the US. 612 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: The concept of spirit communication had been in the popular 613 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: consciousness here and there, particularly through the idea of Mesmerism, 614 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: a concept developed by a man named Anton Mesmer that 615 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,360 Speaker 1: leaned into the electromagnetic fluid theory and life after death, 616 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: and was popular enough during the eighteen forties that it's 617 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: likely that the Fox Sisters would have encountered this idea. 618 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: It was this dual time of progress and extreme anxiety 619 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,280 Speaker 1: in the Rochester area. Religious enthusiasts were worried that science 620 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: would undercut faith, and scientists worried that religion would resist 621 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: empirical evidence over traditional ideas and values, and spirit communication 622 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: became this rare opportunity to marry these two. It wasn't 623 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 1: quite a religion, and it had the possibility to intrigue 624 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,399 Speaker 1: the scientific community as they were trying to figure out 625 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: exactly what was going on in place. Is like the foxhouse, 626 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 1: So the neighbor Mary comes over and is like, guys, 627 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: Maggie and Kate are bored. It's a rainy day, and 628 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: they're fucking with you. But upon getting there, she is 629 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: genuinely struck by how scared the girls seem. When she 630 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: comes upstairs, Mary humors them and is a little freaked 631 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: out when she does hear the raps herself. She asks 632 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: the spirit if it knows how old she is, and 633 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: it wraps out the correct answer, thirty three knocks in 634 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: a row. She later told a local journalist quote, By 635 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: this time I became much interested unquote. Redfield invited her 636 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: husband Charles over to investigate as well, and focused on 637 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: calming the girls, who seemed afraid that the spirit speaking 638 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: with them wanted to hurt them and thought that they 639 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: had done something wrong. In a statement that would inform 640 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: the direction of the religion would go in. Mary told 641 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: the girls that they've done nothing wrong by speaking with 642 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: the spirit, and that it didn't want to hurt them, 643 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: a far less scary interpretation than religions that push that 644 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: children are born into sin and have to pull themselves 645 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: out of it. Mary later described one of the girls 646 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: as replying, quote, we're innocent. How good it is to 647 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,879 Speaker 1: have a clear conscience unquote. In the Fox Sisters biography 648 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: by Barbara Weisberg, the author makes special note of another 649 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 1: contributing factor that would have been a motivator for the sisters, 650 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: the fact that death was a far more common reality 651 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: of daily life than than it is for modern Americans. 652 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: Life expectancy hovered somewhere around forty About half of the 653 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: children born didn't survive to their first birthday, and illnesses 654 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: like typhus, malaria, yellow fever, infections, accidents, and on and on. 655 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: These were the olden times. On it people were dropping 656 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,959 Speaker 1: like flies, and the industrial revolution creating jobs and factories 657 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: brought progress and shared ideas, and yeah, a bunch of 658 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: new ways to die very unpleasantly. The spirit rappings continued 659 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: through Kate Fox's eleventh birthday and the whole neighborhood grew curious. 660 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: Their brother David began staying at the house to keep 661 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: the growing crowds outside. The Fox home at Bay, and 662 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: the sisters heard rappings nearly every single night. As attention 663 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: expanded in the community, some writers and locals agreed that 664 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: maybe this was an April Fool's prank, but much of 665 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: the neighborhood held the line because at this point they 666 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 1: had heard the rappings. Insisted that the girls weren't manifesting 667 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: the noises on their own, and that Maggie and Kate 668 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: had been terrified by what was happening for too many 669 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: nights for the prank juice to be worth the prank squeeze. 670 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,479 Speaker 1: Dozens of people began gathering at the house every day 671 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 1: to hear the rappings from the young girls themselves. The 672 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: situation hovered somewhere between local sensation and free sideshow act 673 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: in a sleepy town where nothing really ever happened. Within 674 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: the week, local reporter E. E. Lewis had taken it 675 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: on himself to chronicle and distribute first and accounts of 676 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 1: what was going on, producing a forty page pamphlet called 677 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,959 Speaker 1: A Report of the Mysterious Noises Heard in the house 678 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,320 Speaker 1: of Mr John D. Fox in Hydesville, Arcadia, Wayne County, 679 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: authenticated by the certificates and confirmed by the statements of 680 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,879 Speaker 1: the citizens of that place and vicinity. Come on, we've 681 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: got to get a better title. Louis spoke quite a 682 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: bit to Margaret Fox, the girl's mother, who was characteristically flustered, enthusiastic, 683 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 1: and defensive of her youngest children. Here's how Margaret described 684 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 1: what was happening in her home. Quote. The first night 685 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: we heard the wrapping, we all got up and laid 686 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: a candle and searched all over the house. It was 687 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: not very loud, yet it produced a jar on the 688 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: bedsteads and chairs, one that could be felt by placing 689 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: our hands on the chair or while we were in bed. 690 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: It was a feeling of a tremulous motion, more than 691 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: a sudden jar. The girls who slept in the other 692 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: bed in the room heard the noise and tried to 693 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: make a similar noise by snapping their fingers. The youngest 694 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: girl is about twelve years old. She's the one who 695 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: made her hand go As fast as she made the 696 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: noise with her hands or fingers. The sound was followed 697 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: up in the room. It made the same number of 698 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: noises that the girl did. The other girl, who was 699 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: in her fifteenth year, then spoke in sport and said, 700 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 1: now do this just as I do. Count one, two, three, four, 701 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: et cetera, striking one hand and the other at the 702 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: same time. The blows which she made were repeated as before. 703 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: It appeared to answer her by repeating every blow she made. 704 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: She then began to be startled unquote. At this time 705 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: it appeared that it was the same spirit returning to 706 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: the Fox house every single night, a spirit that the 707 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: family didn't know, but who seemed to know plenty about them. 708 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 1: And yet he didn't seem angry in the way that 709 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 1: your average movie Poltergeist would be. He was trying to 710 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: tell them something, and it seemed important. What materialized in 711 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: the communication over the next days was that the spirit 712 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,319 Speaker 1: had been murdered. He'd been killed by a man named Mr. 713 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: Bell on a Tuesday at midnight. He was a man 714 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: whose throat had been cut. He'd been taken down to 715 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: the cellar and not buried until the next night, when 716 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: he was buried ten ft below. Margaret Fox continued telling 717 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: the local reporter quote. I then asked if it was 718 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: a human being that was making the noise, and if 719 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: it was to manifest it by the same noise. There 720 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 1: was no noise. I then asked if it was a 721 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: spirit and if it was to manifest it by two sounds. 722 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: I heard two sounds as soon as the words were spoken, unquote. 723 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: By the first week of April, word had reached the 724 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: other Fox siblings, not through letters from their family, but 725 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: by the press and popular discussion. Leah Fox caught wind 726 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: of what her little sisters in Rochester were up to 727 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: via one of her piano students, and she canceled the 728 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: lessons that she had scheduled for the week, and so 729 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,879 Speaker 1: she told her teen daughter and two friends that they 730 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: were going to go to Hydesville and see what the 731 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:09,840 Speaker 1: hell was going on. Full disclosure, I had this episode 732 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 1: almost ready to go when less than two weeks than 733 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,760 Speaker 1: this series began, my grandfather died. I really loved my grandfather. 734 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,840 Speaker 1: Um he was a real pain in the ass of 735 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,280 Speaker 1: a person, and for all of his faults, he really 736 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,839 Speaker 1: loved us. We didn't have a service. There's this thing 737 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: with nineties some things where everyone they know is already dead, 738 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 1: and if you make it far enough, you might just 739 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: want to have your family spend that money paying off 740 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,240 Speaker 1: your medical bills. But I went home and I saw 741 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: my family because I just wanted to be with them 742 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,719 Speaker 1: and talk about him. And there are all these things 743 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: you can learn about your dead grandfather when you go 744 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: to Chile's with your family. Did you know that he 745 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,359 Speaker 1: was a shipyard engineer for thirty years? Uh? Honest to God, 746 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,479 Speaker 1: I didn't know. It's been a strange and painful time, 747 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: in part because he didn't believe that anything happened to 748 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: you once you die. It was his feeling one that 749 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 1: was shaped by being a prisoner of war and growing 750 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:08,840 Speaker 1: up without religion himself. The times that were good were earned, 751 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,799 Speaker 1: not divinely given, and after the first three decades of 752 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,760 Speaker 1: his life were shaped by poverty and struggle in life 753 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: in a cage, he didn't think that there was anyone 754 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 1: really looking out for us when he died. That was 755 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: it is what my papa thought, and continued to think 756 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,360 Speaker 1: even after he wasn't in full control of his own thoughts. 757 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: His younger brother died a few years before he did, 758 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: and every day he would tell people how much he 759 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,040 Speaker 1: missed him and that he didn't think that he would 760 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: see him again. When he died. The show has been 761 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,239 Speaker 1: hard for me to put together because of how things 762 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 1: are right now. You know, things are moving really quickly. 763 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,879 Speaker 1: People are being thrown back into the world without any 764 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,759 Speaker 1: quality control of who you meet, who you talked to, 765 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: who you get to be after being lucky enough to 766 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: have survived the plague. For now, I don't know what 767 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 1: I believe in most days, but today, when I'm recording 768 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,919 Speaker 1: this my bedroom, I can tell you for sure that 769 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: I really hope that my grandfather was wrong, and that 770 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: hope is what Ghost Church is built on. And so, 771 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 1: to quote a very phrase, now, more than ever, I 772 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,799 Speaker 1: want to give Ghost Church a chance. This season, we're 773 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:22,920 Speaker 1: going to be taking a look at all of it. 774 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: The rise and fall of the Fox Sisters, the scientific 775 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 1: movement behind spirit communication, the founding of Cassadeica, rivalries among mediums, 776 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 1: the uncanny number of celebrities who became involved in the movement, 777 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 1: being whisked away in the night to a Perkins restaurant, 778 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,760 Speaker 1: and why people are willing to sometimes give up their family, 779 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: their friends, and their former life to communicate with spirit. 780 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: I don't know what I believe, but I know that 781 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,879 Speaker 1: I would like to understand, and so I will see 782 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:58,760 Speaker 1: you next week. Ghost Church is a Cool Zone Media 783 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: production created, written, and hosted by me Jamie Loftus. The 784 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,719 Speaker 1: show is produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Ian Johnson. 785 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Speedy or Tease That's Sadie 786 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,480 Speaker 1: du Qui, Andy Moholt, Audrey Z Whitesides and Jolly Dubeck 787 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:20,120 Speaker 1: and music is by Zoe Flade