Speaker 1: Well, uh, I think for long time listeners, you know
Speaker 1: those folks, we have never made a secret about how
Speaker 1: surreal and strange our jobs can be. One day we're
Speaker 1: diving into geopolitics. In another day, someone is starting to
Speaker 1: fight with me on YouTube about flat earth, so much
Speaker 1: so that we did an update on this. You remember
Speaker 1: flat earth. It was quite in vogue for a while.
Speaker 1: But remember when that was like the biggest thing we
Speaker 1: had to worry about. You know, it was like people
Speaker 1: yelling at us about whether the Earth was flat around
Speaker 1: golden times. Yeah, when b O B would just come
Speaker 1: out and say something to sell more records. Is he
Speaker 1: the one who said that you should be able to
Speaker 1: see the curvature of the Earth if you're in an airplane?
Speaker 1: Because that him, the BBC reported back in the day
Speaker 1: that he was raising funds to test whether or not
Speaker 1: the Earth it was in fact flat, and several several
Speaker 1: people were doing the same. In this update, we just figured,
Speaker 1: since we all live in such ry in times now,
Speaker 1: this might be a nice break to look at just
Speaker 1: how strange certain conspiracy theories can become. We do hope
Speaker 1: you enjoy it, and if you have an argument that
Speaker 1: you believe proves that's the vast majority about humanity and
Speaker 1: everything we know about science is somehow incorrect about the
Speaker 1: shape of the planet. As always, we'd love to hear
Speaker 1: from you anyway. Here we go from UFOs to psychic
Speaker 1: powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events.
Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn the stuff they
Speaker 1: don't quant you to know. Hey, everybody, welcome back to
Speaker 1: the show. My name is Max, my name is not
Speaker 1: you argue, and I am Ben, which makes this stuff
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. And before we get
Speaker 1: into it, you guys, we've had We've had a lot
Speaker 1: of people asking for shoutouts Chat at Konna. That's right,
Speaker 1: we are returning yet again for an episode of shout
Speaker 1: Out Corner where we just have listeners introduced themselves, say
Speaker 1: something nice. You know, we had we had a really
Speaker 1: cool thing. Jeremy wrote in about his anniversary that was
Speaker 1: pretty cool, and uh, we're gonna We're gonna keep it brief,
Speaker 1: but if you wrote to us, keep writing in who
Speaker 1: are we shouting out today? The first one is Jimmy
Speaker 1: James Kramer. He wrote to us with a really cool story, well,
Speaker 1: a disturbing story about these specific endoscopes that maybe leading
Speaker 1: to U superbug infections because they're very difficult to clean, apparently,
Speaker 1: endoscopes specifically things that let's say, enter orifices in order
Speaker 1: to check out what's going on inside of them in
Speaker 1: the human body. And the problem with these in particulars
Speaker 1: because once he goes in there and it gets the
Speaker 1: equal I had other back heia that might be living
Speaker 1: inside of one human. Then you take it out, remove it,
Speaker 1: try to sterilize it as much as possible. But perhaps
Speaker 1: there are a couple places within the scope, a little
Speaker 1: small nooks and crannies that can't be cleaned well enough
Speaker 1: to be completely sterile, just a little scary. And I
Speaker 1: think there were a couple of recalls at least according
Speaker 1: to drug watch dot com. And I cannot uh. I
Speaker 1: don't know how reputable this site is, unfortunately, but the
Speaker 1: thing that he did send us is pretty creepy. So
Speaker 1: thanks Jimmy. So is a nook and cranny? Is that
Speaker 1: metric system or something? And I think who's next? Well, next,
Speaker 1: we have a delicious shout out to Goostaff von Essen
Speaker 1: from Sweden with love. He suggested doing an episode on
Speaker 1: the ib Affair IB was a secret Swedish intelligence agency
Speaker 1: that is a mouthful that worked with the CIA and
Speaker 1: the Israel security agency. So Gustaf Essen, consider yourself out
Speaker 1: shouted shouted out, and our last one for today goes to,
Speaker 1: uh Lynn. Now I may be mispronouncing your name. Lynn.
Speaker 1: Am I a o uh there on Twitter? Who said
Speaker 1: and I quote uh conspiracy stuff? Could I please have
Speaker 1: a shout out for good luck? It could really help
Speaker 1: on college mid terms? So, uh, Lynn, we wish you
Speaker 1: the best of luck on your mid terms. I hope
Speaker 1: your studies go well. Absolutely, I think we've been there.
Speaker 1: I haven't off the books shout out real quick? Were
Speaker 1: you about to say something? I'm sorry? Oh no, just
Speaker 1: continuing to talk to Lynn. But you know it's cool,
Speaker 1: nol No, No, I didn't know if you had something
Speaker 1: substantial to say. That's not true. Okay, guys, guys, you
Speaker 1: talk about my mat like that. Guys were live? Okay,
Speaker 1: what is it? Mill? Okay? No. I just my dear
Speaker 1: friend Lee, Albert Lee Landers of Augusta, Georgia town, um
Speaker 1: just sent me a text that said, quote shout out
Speaker 1: corner skadooche and he was referencing my off the cuff
Speaker 1: Shoutout Corner theme that we have. Now you know it's cannon.
Speaker 1: Now it's true and yeah and so um, you know,
Speaker 1: he asked if I would give him a shout out
Speaker 1: because this is the first episode he'd ever listened to,
Speaker 1: and so Lee, shout out to you because you're in
Speaker 1: you're in trouble. No, because we just violated one of
Speaker 1: the rules of Shout Out Corner, which is it's around
Speaker 1: three because it's not a shoutout room. So well, actually though,
Speaker 1: if it was only a corner, it should just be one.
Speaker 1: Well no, because then it which room has four corners,
Speaker 1: but a corner like three one one on that side.
Speaker 1: And then I love that we're talking and spatial reason
Speaker 1: because this is perfect. Okay, So before we before we
Speaker 1: get lost in that, I I do, uh, I do?
Speaker 1: I do have to admit that I love the theme.
Speaker 1: And if you enjoy shout Out Corner, then right to us.
Speaker 1: We have a little bit of a list and who knows,
Speaker 1: maybe you can also meet the rest of the listeners.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, less time on stuff they don't want you
Speaker 1: to know. No, you were on a bit of an
Speaker 1: adventure and we couldn't really talk about it. It was
Speaker 1: a bit of a secret a secret mission. It was
Speaker 1: a bit of a secret mission. But the cat is
Speaker 1: now out of the bag, or should I say the clippy.
Speaker 1: The clip is out of the bag. Badger is out
Speaker 1: of the bag. No listeners, I'm referring to the beloved
Speaker 1: uh Microsoft widget pre widget precursor to the widget. It
Speaker 1: appears was right, and there's a name for it now
Speaker 1: that I can't remember, of that type of of digital assistant.
Speaker 1: What I'm getting at is, guys, over the weekend, I
Speaker 1: took a last minute trip to New York with Josh
Speaker 1: and Chuck from our brother pot cast sister podcast. Would
Speaker 1: have to be gendered about this pure podcasts, pure podcast.
Speaker 1: That's good stuff you should know to interview one Mr
Speaker 1: Bill Gates, creator of the Clippy, and a couple of
Speaker 1: uh Microsoft something about being one of the most wealthy
Speaker 1: men alive in the free world. Um, but yeah, we
Speaker 1: talked to him about renewable energy. He launched a really
Speaker 1: big renewable energy initiative, and all that was embargo. We
Speaker 1: went to a fancy hotel and talked to him, um,
Speaker 1: and then all that stuff hit the news. What I
Speaker 1: think is sort of a little bit of a bummer.
Speaker 1: I think for his folks is the comment that he
Speaker 1: made about that Apple should crack that phone of the
Speaker 1: San Bernardino shooter has overshadowed largely the the stuff that
Speaker 1: he was really trying to promote, sustainable and pushing, which
Speaker 1: I think is a shame. Now you said he was
Speaker 1: a cool guy, though he was super good. He was
Speaker 1: chilled in and he was really surprised that there was
Speaker 1: so few handlers and security. I mean it was very
Speaker 1: low key. He probably keeps a close service, yeah, oh
Speaker 1: for sure, but just about security protocol though there was none.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, we just I mean I get a pat down?
Speaker 1: Got no pat down? Did you? Did you request one? Well?
Speaker 1: I got there early because I'm a little o c
Speaker 1: D about that kind of stuff, and I just want
Speaker 1: to make sure the WiFi was fast enough so that
Speaker 1: I could upload the files real quickly. It was really
Speaker 1: fast turnaround for the for the recording. It was for
Speaker 1: the episode that came out yesterday and the interview took
Speaker 1: place on Monday. Um, So I uploaded them and our
Speaker 1: dear friend Jerry, who is the producer of stuff you
Speaker 1: should Know, received the files and edited the interview into
Speaker 1: the episode and we made the publish deadline, which was
Speaker 1: yesterday morning. Yeah, I quick turnaround and Ladies and gentleman.
Speaker 1: You can check out that episode on iTunes, Stitcher, or
Speaker 1: wherever you like to listen to a podcast, and you
Speaker 1: can hear every Buddy's Chuck and Josh as the Ah
Speaker 1: chop it up with Bill Gates. How weird is it
Speaker 1: that because you were in the same room with Bill
Speaker 1: Gates And I don't know exactly how the degrees of
Speaker 1: separation work necessarily because I think the originally you had
Speaker 1: to send a letter I guess to someone that you
Speaker 1: knew when you were gonna establish the six degrees. But
Speaker 1: that connects you up to some very powerful people, not
Speaker 1: that he isn't perhaps one of the most powerful. It
Speaker 1: was just like the Kevin Bacon game. Yeah, I'm I'm scared.
Speaker 1: One thing that Josh commented on his bill was drinking
Speaker 1: a diet coke um and he left it behind and
Speaker 1: we could have taken it and harvested his DNA. I
Speaker 1: don't know how much effective DNA would get, uh, not
Speaker 1: that I've tried, but from someone's uh not all the
Speaker 1: way consumed soda can. I mean there there's some he
Speaker 1: was lipping it pretty hard, you know what, Let's see
Speaker 1: if let's see if we keep that one. But let's
Speaker 1: also move on. Uh, this week, we are covering an
Speaker 1: update series on the flat Earth theory. Now, our video
Speaker 1: for this is going to come out probably around Sunday night,
Speaker 1: maybe Monday. And what we do in the video is
Speaker 1: walk through some of the recent ideas, some of the
Speaker 1: longstanding misconceptions. And the reason we wanted to do an
Speaker 1: update is uh, pretty pretty important, right, Matt. Yeah, We okay,
Speaker 1: so a long time ago. Take take yourselves back now
Speaker 1: a few years, yes, Ben, because we find ourselves here
Speaker 1: at how stuff works and stuff they don't want you
Speaker 1: to know intertwined into perhaps the story of the modern
Speaker 1: flat earth theory simply because we You and I specifically
Speaker 1: produced a video back in two thousand nine, which then
Speaker 1: got on YouTube in two thousand ten about the theories
Speaker 1: behind the flat Earth in the Flat Earth Society, and
Speaker 1: it was then posted on various forums around the Internet.
Speaker 1: There's one in particular on the Flat Earth Society dot org,
Speaker 1: I believe, where a gentleman named Tom Bishop wrote that specifically,
Speaker 1: quote how stuff works dot com endorses flat earth theory
Speaker 1: unquote and it kind of became a thing that perhaps
Speaker 1: our video is being used to promote the flat earth theory,
Speaker 1: which is an interesting idea because if you watch the video, uh,
Speaker 1: that is clearly not occurring within it. I mean it's
Speaker 1: it's the same formula you guys apply to any video
Speaker 1: you make, where you take an idea, you talk about
Speaker 1: its background, and you describe the people that espouse said idea.
Speaker 1: But that does not make you said espousers. And that's
Speaker 1: the great thing about that forum because if you scroll
Speaker 1: a little bit further down, as guy watched the video, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's at least there are at least three people who
Speaker 1: are commenting endorses a really strong word or maybe you
Speaker 1: didn't watch the whole video, and uh, it's pretty funny.
Speaker 1: They're even using the hero of the facts and here's
Speaker 1: where it gets crazy lines in their commenting back and forth.
Speaker 1: So it was quite amusing. I think the more appropriate
Speaker 1: headline would be how stuff Works makes video about flat Earth. Sure, sure,
Speaker 1: but this is also a surprising thing. As you may
Speaker 1: have heard in recent months, Uh, the concept of a
Speaker 1: flat earth, which is a very ancient concept, gained national
Speaker 1: media attention and more people are talking about it on Twitter,
Speaker 1: on Facebook, on Tumbler, probably on Snapchat. Uh. I don't
Speaker 1: think it can quite compete with some of the other
Speaker 1: pictures on Snapchat, but there's probably a few things. So
Speaker 1: while we're there, back in two thousand ten, two thousand nine,
Speaker 1: let's not stop there. Let's travel further back in time
Speaker 1: to the Iron Age. Okay, here we are, so listeners,
Speaker 1: imagine that you're living in the Iron Age, and imagine
Speaker 1: that you're an average person, pretty successful in your community
Speaker 1: by the standards of the time. Now, you're not extraordinarily successful,
Speaker 1: like a warlord or religious figure or a blacksmith. In fact,
Speaker 1: you're overwhelmingly likely to be a farmer. And you measure
Speaker 1: days not necessarily in hours, but in terms of the
Speaker 1: world's natural rhythm day tonight, the position of the sun,
Speaker 1: phase of the moon, winter to spring and back again.
Speaker 1: And you do not travel widely because this would make
Speaker 1: it difficult to take care of the vital crops upon
Speaker 1: which you and your family depend. Not to mention, it
Speaker 1: would take a long time to get very far at all. Right,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And there's I also have a video
Speaker 1: about how long it will take to walk around the
Speaker 1: world for brains stuff, and even today it's very, very
Speaker 1: difficult and pretty dangerous, so forget about it in the
Speaker 1: Iron age, and you know, let's say you're content despite
Speaker 1: the high rates of child mortality. You and your partner
Speaker 1: have had some kids and they're farming too, and you know,
Speaker 1: you you feel like life is good until imagine one
Speaker 1: day a stranger comes to your community. This is a
Speaker 1: person so different that at first you think maybe they're
Speaker 1: not human at all, perhaps they're some sort of divine creature,
Speaker 1: an angel, a demon. This creature turns out to be
Speaker 1: a time traveler from uh in this example, specifically, Matt Frederick.
Speaker 1: And Matt tells you that the world beyond your flat,
Speaker 1: playing and crops and adjacent villages extends beyond the horizon
Speaker 1: farther further. We're talking philosophically. Then you might imagine and
Speaker 1: if you start walking today, says the time traveling Matt Frederick,
Speaker 1: and you always head west, you will end up not
Speaker 1: off the edge of the earth, but back here in
Speaker 1: this very spot. You are standing poppy cock horse wash.
Speaker 1: And why is that, you ask, and the time traveler says,
Speaker 1: because of course the earth is round. Mad you forget
Speaker 1: the time travelers. You so you don't have to do
Speaker 1: a voice because the world is round. Now, you might
Speaker 1: not believe this guy at first, and even if you did,
Speaker 1: your community might kill him anyway, because that's how people are.
Speaker 1: Which right, here's the other thing. You're going to need
Speaker 1: a swimsuit because there will be some swimming involved. But however,
Speaker 1: you can do this. It's yeah, So it's the end
Speaker 1: of the world, or at least the the end of
Speaker 1: the edge of the world as we know it. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about ancient civilizations. It is true that in
Speaker 1: the Iron Age people did believe that the Earth was flat.
Speaker 1: Numerous ancient civilizations did think that right all over the world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that includes parts of India before the Gupta period, Grease
Speaker 1: up to the Classical period, parts of China, Native American cultures,
Speaker 1: and on and on. People actually also believe Earth was
Speaker 1: covered by a solid dome called the firmament, which is
Speaker 1: a term you see in the Bible a lot, right,
Speaker 1: like if you got high enough into the heavens, you
Speaker 1: would eventually hit just yeah, it's almost like a glass
Speaker 1: ceiling of sorts the way it's described. Sometimes I see
Speaker 1: it as a snow globe. Almost just above there's a
Speaker 1: picture on the House Stuff Works website that kind of
Speaker 1: gives you a great idea, and that is on the
Speaker 1: article how creationism works. And it's just it's a cool
Speaker 1: illustration of the concept of yeah, exactly. And most of
Speaker 1: China pretty much accepted the idea of a flat earth
Speaker 1: until apparently meeting missionaries in the seventeenth century who are like, guys,
Speaker 1: we're gonna blow your minds. Double checked myself. Just just
Speaker 1: wanted to put this out there. The Bible does mention
Speaker 1: the firmament seventeen times, but it actually is referring to
Speaker 1: a expanse beyond the sky. So the expanse of the
Speaker 1: heavens above the earth. Okay, they almost wore a little
Speaker 1: head of the curve. Yeah, if you think about it.
Speaker 1: And we'll find out more about that too. So there
Speaker 1: are some myths we need to bust about belief in
Speaker 1: the flat earth in the ancient world. Okay, we'll talk
Speaker 1: about where this argument for a spherical world came from.
Speaker 1: But first one of us that one of the biggest myths,
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, if we're already listening to this show,
Speaker 1: that we imagine that you know this is a fact,
Speaker 1: but just in case you are still in a situation
Speaker 1: where your history teachers are misleading you, probably with the
Speaker 1: best of intentions. Let's let's get it out of the
Speaker 1: way now. Crystal Ball Cologne Street named Christopher Columbus was
Speaker 1: a gigantic jerk. Is a monster. He was like, uh,
Speaker 1: the nooid. If the noid was a genocidal slaver, that's
Speaker 1: a deep cut, my friend, that's a deep cut. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was just I was thinking about the NOI do
Speaker 1: you guys remember the Anid video game? I played it
Speaker 1: on a different console. The Nooid was big dominoes, look
Speaker 1: up noid. Maybe a better thing would be He was
Speaker 1: the Martin Screlly of his day. Is that better? Okay?
Speaker 1: But despite all the terrible things he did, all the
Speaker 1: just monstrous atrocities he committed or helped commit, he was
Speaker 1: not a stupid man. He was not like the dullest
Speaker 1: crayon in the box. He, like most of the people
Speaker 1: at the time, knew the Earth was round. It was
Speaker 1: common knowledge. He did not prove it. He Uh. If anything,
Speaker 1: the big argument was about how big or small the
Speaker 1: Earth was. It was not about the shape. Sure seems
Speaker 1: to me if anyone was going to know first that
Speaker 1: the earth was round, it would be somebody in the
Speaker 1: nautical profession, you know, like like a captain, someone that
Speaker 1: spends time out on the sea right where you could
Speaker 1: see the actual curvature. Well, that also was a big thing,
Speaker 1: a big superstition among um seafaring types was that you
Speaker 1: would reach the end of the earth right and they
Speaker 1: fall off, and that they were like there be monsters,
Speaker 1: kind of incognita. It's true, But so why did this
Speaker 1: myth come about? Where there's a guy named James Hannum
Speaker 1: who wrote a piece called Science Versus Christianity, and we
Speaker 1: have a quote for you directly from him. The myth
Speaker 1: that people in the Middle Ages thought the Earth is
Speaker 1: flat appears to date from the seventeenth century as part
Speaker 1: of the campaign by Protestants against Catholic teaching, but it
Speaker 1: gained currency in the nineteenth century thanks to inaccurate history
Speaker 1: such as John William Draper's History of the Conflict between
Speaker 1: Religion and Science in eighteen seventy four and Andrew Dixon
Speaker 1: whites a History of the Warfare of Science with Theology
Speaker 1: and Christendom in eighteen ninety six. Atheists and agnostics championed
Speaker 1: the conflict thesis of their own purposes, but historical research
Speaker 1: gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had propagated more fantasy
Speaker 1: than fact in their efforts to prove that science and
Speaker 1: religion are locked in internal conflict. The myth that people
Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages thought the earth was flat appears
Speaker 1: to date from the seventeenth century as part of the
Speaker 1: campaign by Protestants against Catholic teaching, but it gained currency
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century thanks to inaccurate history such as
Speaker 1: John William Draper's History of the Conflict between Religion and
Speaker 1: Science and Andrew Dixon White's A History of the Warfare
Speaker 1: of Science with Theology in Christendom. Atheist and agnostics championed
Speaker 1: the conflict thesis for their own purposes, but historical research
Speaker 1: gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had propagated more fantasy
Speaker 1: than fiction in their efforts to prove that science and
Speaker 1: religion are locked in eternal conflict. So essentially, what happened here.
Speaker 1: The reason that we have this longstanding stereotype about people
Speaker 1: in the ancient world is because two guys with an
Speaker 1: agenda popularize something to make it look as those science
Speaker 1: and faith are always at loggerheads. And you know, if
Speaker 1: you go back even further, it was a religious insult
Speaker 1: that the Protestants channeled against the Catholics old thinking. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about the truth. The cons set of a
Speaker 1: round Earth dates all the way back to at least
Speaker 1: Pythagoras and Aristotle. So you could argue that in the
Speaker 1: eighth century BC, the Biblical writer Isaiah alluded to a
Speaker 1: spherical Earth. In Isaiah for quote, he sits enthroned upon
Speaker 1: the circle of the Earth. Then in the third century BC,
Speaker 1: Hellenistic astronomy established without a doubt, factual proof of Earth's
Speaker 1: spherical shape. So this comes to us from astronomy. And
Speaker 1: we had talked about whether this came from people in
Speaker 1: a nautical profession. But keep in mind, at this point
Speaker 1: in time astronomers and those in maritime occupations were intertwined
Speaker 1: in terms of skill sets. Absolutely, I mean astronomy, or
Speaker 1: rather the nautical mapping, and you know, making the charts
Speaker 1: is essentially functional astronomy, I mean using the stars to
Speaker 1: you know, plot your course. Did you guys know that?
Speaker 1: Did you hear the NPR story about out this recently
Speaker 1: where the Navy is going back to teaching uh, teaching
Speaker 1: the students like where I'm actually well, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: that later, but they're teaching people how to use the
Speaker 1: stars and navigate again. Right, Yeah, then that's a that's
Speaker 1: a valuable skill once. Once you know it, you can
Speaker 1: keep an eye on it, because it's true that constellations
Speaker 1: do change over time, but the scale of that change
Speaker 1: is so vast in comparison to you know, human lives,
Speaker 1: that you can pretty much count on these as a
Speaker 1: fixed point. I think it's great. I think they never
Speaker 1: should have stopped teaching from there. The belief and around
Speaker 1: Earth spread gradually throughout the world. People knew, Yeah, but Ben,
Speaker 1: is it really a sphere? Yeah? I guess you're right.
Speaker 1: I guess it's better to call it an ellipsoid. But
Speaker 1: still we knew, Yeah, it's kind of squashed, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so case closed? Right? Or is it? Here's where it
Speaker 1: gets crazy, the flat earth theory. Okay, yes, we said
Speaker 1: earlier Mesopotamian cultures believed that Earth was a disk. We
Speaker 1: have had as a species, so many different shapes for Earth.
Speaker 1: But obviously, if you're standing in one spot, you see
Speaker 1: a mountain, you see an ocean, what's that old poem,
Speaker 1: I looked around from where I stood and saw three
Speaker 1: mountains and the wood. Um. It's a great poem. But
Speaker 1: the the ideas that we were limited for a long
Speaker 1: time because the signs that could prove to us the
Speaker 1: position of the Sun and the and the moon and
Speaker 1: Earth and the shape of those things were difficult to interpret.
Speaker 1: So of course we thought it was flat for a while.
Speaker 1: But well, let alone, what is the sun? What is
Speaker 1: the moon? You know? What are what are these things
Speaker 1: made of? What am I seeing far out there? We
Speaker 1: know that something is there? But what is it? Is
Speaker 1: it angry at me? I mean, that's the kind of
Speaker 1: world people lived in. So gradually as the at least
Speaker 1: in the West, the Hellenistic realization of Earth as a
Speaker 1: ellipsoid spread across the world. Some people even today apparently
Speaker 1: didn't buy it, and they said, that's a bunch of
Speaker 1: horse wash. Uh. And so so let's look at some
Speaker 1: of the modern day stuff. In n s Samuel Shelton
Speaker 1: founded a society that had a theory about the shape
Speaker 1: of the Earth, namely, it's flat or a pancake. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And and he based these ideas just on walking around,
Speaker 1: observing things and going Hey, al right, well everything's looking
Speaker 1: pretty flat around here. Common sense, yeah, personal observation, the
Speaker 1: zootetic method, the idea that we can only encounter things
Speaker 1: through our own senses. Yes, my, my, this one uh
Speaker 1: focal point of consciousness understands it in this way. And
Speaker 1: he called scientific evidence for a globe shaped Earth dogmatics.
Speaker 1: So he said scientists were making this claim without adequate
Speaker 1: evidence based they were following a party line, right, which
Speaker 1: is very interesting, right when it when you're thinking about
Speaker 1: some of these criticisms that came from the religious angles,
Speaker 1: back when the Protestants were criticizing Catholic beliefs, it's just
Speaker 1: interesting to then throw it right onto science. But this
Speaker 1: was also in nineteen Like this is nineteen fifty six,
Speaker 1: So keep in mind Shelton lived long enough to see
Speaker 1: pictures of Earth taken by satellites, and what do you
Speaker 1: do then, Well, of course he claimed that they were fake.
Speaker 1: I mean, of course they were fake. Right, He and
Speaker 1: the members of his society continue to support the idea
Speaker 1: that Earth is flat, and the people who disagreed are
Speaker 1: just part of a vast conspiracy to hide the truth
Speaker 1: about Earth's inherent flatness. Right, everybody's in the pockets a
Speaker 1: big globe manufacturers. Uh So, Shelton passed away in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy one, a guy named Charles Johnson took over leaders
Speaker 1: ship and let the society until two thousand and one.
Speaker 1: Critics of the Flat Earth Society say that it's members
Speaker 1: just deny any evidence that conflicts with their worldview. And they,
Speaker 1: you know, members who are in the Flatter Society and
Speaker 1: genuinely believe this would probably say the same thing about
Speaker 1: their opponents. That's how these kind of arguments typically go.
Speaker 1: It sounds like a bunch of contrarians if you ask me, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: who who isn't? Wait? Did you guys just both agree? Uh?
Speaker 1: And by the way, right now, a gentleman named Daniel
Speaker 1: Shenton is running the Flat Earth Society. He brought it
Speaker 1: back up in two thousand nine. And if you go
Speaker 1: to the Flat Earth Society dot org you can find
Speaker 1: the forums that are active there. I think in the
Speaker 1: the Guardian article that I read there he said there
Speaker 1: were only there are only a few active members are
Speaker 1: non ironic. Yes, and I you know, in this case,
Speaker 1: of course, I'm not gonna cast dispersion someone for their
Speaker 1: personal beliefs. You know what I mean, you believe what
Speaker 1: you want. No one should control your mind. However, he
Speaker 1: goes all the way back to ancient Greeks, and even
Speaker 1: that's a little um Western centric, because the odds are
Speaker 1: that there are other ancient civilizations that figured this out
Speaker 1: before the Greeks. Just it's possible, and it's possible that
Speaker 1: we wouldn't know because there's a dearth of evidence. But
Speaker 1: they learned by measuring shadows, and that's that's what led
Speaker 1: them say, Oh, the planet's surface must be curved. And
Speaker 1: then the astronomers is nol mentioned figured out the world
Speaker 1: was round, and then we have to look at the
Speaker 1: idea of creationism. Listeners, if you are creationists, that is
Speaker 1: your belief system, and you subscribe to that, then of
Speaker 1: course I'm not going to um. As I said, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to cast dispersion on someone's personal faith, but
Speaker 1: I'm willing to wage your odds are that if you're
Speaker 1: listening to this show right now or any podcast, you
Speaker 1: also know that the Earth is round modern um Well, okay,
Speaker 1: so back when the idea of a flat earth was
Speaker 1: more common, when most people in the West where some
Speaker 1: form of creationists, uh, they believed that the Earth was flat,
Speaker 1: it was a mobile, and it was at the very
Speaker 1: center of the universe. It was the bull's eye on
Speaker 1: the great cosmic dartboard, and it was covered by the
Speaker 1: solid dome like sky. And and this goes to that
Speaker 1: firmament that Noel mentioned earlier, and you see it mentioned
Speaker 1: in Genesis. Uh, the sun, stars and moon are embedded
Speaker 1: in this dome. But that turns out not to be
Speaker 1: the case. We've actually sent somebody, We've actually sent some
Speaker 1: nifty robots and rockets out into space. We've had people
Speaker 1: in orbit who have had life changing experiences by looking
Speaker 1: at the Earth all at once, allegedly allegedly, do you
Speaker 1: know any astronauts? Well, it's so funny to me that
Speaker 1: that point of logic, and it goes back to how
Speaker 1: we were discussing. If you can, if you can argue
Speaker 1: something well enough, then perhaps you can be right. Even
Speaker 1: if you are completely wrong. You can win the argument. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: whether you are the substance of your argument. Isn't that
Speaker 1: the whole point of debate? Like the debate Club, I mean,
Speaker 1: aren't there exercises where you just take on a completely
Speaker 1: absurd position and your job is to just defended the
Speaker 1: victorious if I could have a rebuttal. Another interesting thing
Speaker 1: to know about the beliefs of how the flat Earth
Speaker 1: would function physically is how gravity would work in this scenario.
Speaker 1: So I I never really understood it until we began
Speaker 1: researching again. And so the idea on this flat plane
Speaker 1: as it's moving upwards. So the idea on this flat
Speaker 1: plane is that there is no gravity per se, because
Speaker 1: there's not one central location as there would be on
Speaker 1: a spherical or a planet shaped to the way that
Speaker 1: Earth is shaped, where it's pulling everything in and spinning
Speaker 1: to hold everything to the surface. In this scenario, the
Speaker 1: flat plane is moving upwards at a speed that would
Speaker 1: when you jump up in the air and you come
Speaker 1: back down. The reason that that's happening is because the
Speaker 1: Earth is coming up to meet you essentially, which is interesting.
Speaker 1: The Earth is moving and you are not, so it's
Speaker 1: a force of acceleration. Yes, I see, And then we've
Speaker 1: we've seen other computing beliefs. I guess we should talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about the different concepts of the outlay
Speaker 1: or the geography of the flat Earth. Right how the
Speaker 1: there's the common belief that the north pole is at
Speaker 1: the very center, which of Earth is at the very
Speaker 1: center of the universe. Makes the North Pole sacred place,
Speaker 1: the most important place. And then it's uh, it's ringed around.
Speaker 1: The edges of the world are ringed around by what
Speaker 1: we mistake as the South Pole. It's really a wall
Speaker 1: of ice. And our colleague Christian Seger wrote a great
Speaker 1: piece and now about this, where he said, picture picture
Speaker 1: the wall from the night's watch, but just with out
Speaker 1: you know, trolls, monsters, they're called white walkers. Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1: There is a map that you can find of the
Speaker 1: way the Earth looks in the flat Earth view, and
Speaker 1: that if you superimpose that map, in particular with the
Speaker 1: U N map, it is pretty much the same thing.
Speaker 1: But when if you look at it, it's just a
Speaker 1: version of a projection from the top down, from the
Speaker 1: North Pole down. Now we also found uh. We also
Speaker 1: learned about a group of people called geo centrists, who
Speaker 1: believed that Earth may not be flat, but it's definitely
Speaker 1: the center of everything, and it is immobile, and that
Speaker 1: the Sun rotates around the Earth in twenty four hour periods,
Speaker 1: and all other planets rotate around the Sun. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a complex thing. Um, this is this is also
Speaker 1: generally a religious based belief. Uh. They're the people, I
Speaker 1: guess you would call radical geocentrist. Uh refer to a
Speaker 1: religious text alone and reject all modern astronomy, physics, and cosmology. Um.
Speaker 1: And also some believe that the sky is still a
Speaker 1: solid dome. Yeah, which takes us to modern believers listeners.
Speaker 1: We received so many, so many questions on YouTube, on Facebook,
Speaker 1: on Twitter, where conspiracy stuff at all of those? By
Speaker 1: the way, if you want to, uh, if you wanna
Speaker 1: give us a little bit Internet love, like comments, subscribe, etcetera.
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. We read a lot
Speaker 1: from b O b An til It's Aequila, who are
Speaker 1: the reason this became a mainstream thing again. Well, the
Speaker 1: whole thing kind of started when a MS Tequila angel
Speaker 1: Tila Love is her Twitter handle, She said, it's and
Speaker 1: nobody has been able to prove to me that the
Speaker 1: Earth is around. Where's the curvature in the horizon? Hashtag
Speaker 1: flat earth proved me wrong? Dang it? And this continued,
Speaker 1: said not going to get over this. Why are all
Speaker 1: the buildings in New York standing straight up? If Earth
Speaker 1: was round? Some of the buildings would have a slight tilt. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then if the Earth is a spinning globe, how
Speaker 1: come airplanes still land without crashing because the face of
Speaker 1: the Earth is flat, not a globe. And yeah, I
Speaker 1: I don't you know. I know it's it's such a
Speaker 1: safe pitchforky thing for people to uh dogpile on someone.
Speaker 1: But how sincere is this? I wonder if you have
Speaker 1: been following Tia Tequila at all. She has been. She's
Speaker 1: been going down this interesting little I let's call it
Speaker 1: a rabbit hole of looking into some of the things
Speaker 1: that we have looked into in the past and covered
Speaker 1: and discussed, um that seemingly internalizing them quite a bit
Speaker 1: per Perhaps I know that she I can't speak for her,
Speaker 1: but she seems to be very um invested in believing
Speaker 1: some of these things and taking them at face value.
Speaker 1: And there's another player in the game, another celebrity who
Speaker 1: mentioned this, who is an MC that I have quite
Speaker 1: a high opinion of the rapper b o B. Yes, yes, sir,
Speaker 1: And you have actually a verse on that, right or
Speaker 1: a verse from that. No, it's not a bo b
Speaker 1: ver I said. I had mentioned. There's a there's a
Speaker 1: group I really Enjoy from Chicago called the Anti Pop
Speaker 1: Consortium and the hip a line that's your world is
Speaker 1: flat Haha. You fell off hoping that the laws of
Speaker 1: gravity will bring you back to Earth. If not, okay,
Speaker 1: your words fall lighter than air, so float away and
Speaker 1: disappear into a black hole sun. So someone falls off
Speaker 1: the edge of the planet and into a black hole.
Speaker 1: That's that's terrible. That's a black hole disturbingly close to Earth,
Speaker 1: ardless of what shape it is. Well, okay, So b
Speaker 1: o B began also tweeting about a flat Earth? What
Speaker 1: what kind of stuff was he saying? Uh, there was
Speaker 1: a picture that he posted and I don't know exactly
Speaker 1: where it is. I'm assuming it's in Atlanta. I can't that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I thought that's what it might be, but
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure. But someone standing out top of the
Speaker 1: mountain and then way in the distance you can see
Speaker 1: I guess the city, like a city, which would presumably
Speaker 1: be Atlanta or another small uh suburbs somewhere in there.
Speaker 1: And it says the city is in the background are
Speaker 1: approximately sixteen miles apart. Where's the curve? Please explain this?
Speaker 1: And my favorite response was, I don't think he was
Speaker 1: legit saying the Earth is flat. He's been on planes.
Speaker 1: I think he was just asking, and so responded Tom foolery.
Speaker 1: Even in a plane you can't see a curve. It's true,
Speaker 1: but it's like, what's the what's the deal, Ben, give
Speaker 1: us the skinny? Uh? So there is. It's it's in
Speaker 1: some ways a matter of perception against sort of that
Speaker 1: zotetic method that that says, well, who made this map,
Speaker 1: who made this globe? Who is telling me what to believe?
Speaker 1: And on a personal level, I identify with that kind
Speaker 1: of instinct wholeheartedly. However, the problem is that the science
Speaker 1: is fairly conclusive, and by fairly I am woefully understating it. Uh.
Speaker 1: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the famous science science communicator, I guess
Speaker 1: would be the technical term or science popularizer, uh, when
Speaker 1: on national television recently to uh speak about this. He
Speaker 1: also had a Twitter conversation with b O B about it.
Speaker 1: He did something of a virtual mic drop. I heard
Speaker 1: about that in a real one on the nightly show. Right,
Speaker 1: so it became it became a matter of public debate.
Speaker 1: But a question posed in the video here, that's that's
Speaker 1: the state of affairs right now. Folks, a question posed
Speaker 1: in the video coming out next week. Uh, really stuck
Speaker 1: with me and I'm still wondering, because yes, is this
Speaker 1: genuine iniative marketing employee. Bob was also talking about clone factories,
Speaker 1: which I think is an order of magnitude more plausible
Speaker 1: um that people could. For me, it's certainly more fascinating
Speaker 1: imagining organs or clone, you know, the parts of a
Speaker 1: body we need. But this there's a third question here,
Speaker 1: and that's the one that really bothers me and and listeners, Um,
Speaker 1: when we asked this question. We really want to hear
Speaker 1: from you on this, and I want to hear what
Speaker 1: you guys think to know, Matt, is this a distraction move? What?
Speaker 1: What's not being paid attention to? I bring up my
Speaker 1: roommate Frank a lot um, and he tends to think
Speaker 1: that most public figures that say things like this, like
Speaker 1: let's say Kanye West, for example, you know, tweeting that
Speaker 1: Cosby is innocent, whatever your opinions are, that it's not
Speaker 1: a very popular thing to say in all caps with
Speaker 1: no qualifying comments. Um, you know, say Donald Trump, some
Speaker 1: of the inflammatory things that he says. Uh, someone like Frank,
Speaker 1: my skeptical roommate would say that all of these people
Speaker 1: are playing on UM public outrage UM and they are
Speaker 1: doing what you call garnering earned media because you know,
Speaker 1: when you say something outlandish like that that's very divisive,
Speaker 1: you know, p people are going to chime in on
Speaker 1: one side or the other, and then those people are
Speaker 1: gonna go at each other, you know, and it just
Speaker 1: generates this whole domino effect where you generate this media,
Speaker 1: you know, storm, shall we say, and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden we're in a room talking about it, right,
Speaker 1: or tweeting about it, or looking at comments or reading
Speaker 1: things on BuzzFeed. And you know, I would never comment
Speaker 1: on any of that stuff, but I sure as hell
Speaker 1: read the comments a lot. They're entertaining stuff or chiming
Speaker 1: in with, you know, an opinion that that other people
Speaker 1: are also either reinforcing and supporting. It becomes an echo chamber.
Speaker 1: But again, the thing I ask is, you know know
Speaker 1: that sounds like we're coming on your end, we're coming
Speaker 1: down on the side of UM marketing. Employ Well, what
Speaker 1: I what I didn't get to yet and where Frank
Speaker 1: and I sometimes differ is I think sometimes a combination
Speaker 1: of both UM, Like I think that there is a
Speaker 1: certain point where you can can belief, take an opinion,
Speaker 1: and kind of balloon it into Okay, I'm gonna really
Speaker 1: like ride this crazy training all the way to Valhalla.
Speaker 1: You know witnessed me? Do you witnessed me on my Twitter? Meltdown,
Speaker 1: shining and Chrome? Yeah, that's that's in the Chrome browser.
Speaker 1: I would positive that this is a reaction to a
Speaker 1: blurring line between what we perceive as reality and what
Speaker 1: is possible to create with computers. And by that I
Speaker 1: mean I mean photoshopping is so advanced now, video effects
Speaker 1: are so advanced. When you are handed a piece of evidence,
Speaker 1: physical evidence that is digital, I think it is not
Speaker 1: only right to be skeptical of whatever you've just been handed, um,
Speaker 1: but not necessarily to the point of completely disbelieving everything.
Speaker 1: You seem like a particularly functional conspiracy though, Like if
Speaker 1: the government and scientists are going out of their way,
Speaker 1: above and beyond to fake all this data to what,
Speaker 1: to what end? That's the most important question. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: glad you asked it. That's the most important question. That's
Speaker 1: the part. I can't care. If the Earth was flat,
Speaker 1: let it be flat. We'd we'd figure we'd figure out
Speaker 1: how to make it work right, The vast majority of
Speaker 1: people are not going to it's it's not going to
Speaker 1: matter to the day to day life of the vast
Speaker 1: majority of people whether the Earth is round or flat.
Speaker 1: Let's face it, the majority of humanity is not going
Speaker 1: to attempt to circumnavigate the globe. The majority of humanity
Speaker 1: will never be in danger of saying, oh crap, the
Speaker 1: ancient Mesopotamian cultures were right, and I learned too late.
Speaker 1: Now here I am sliding off into the universe. But so,
Speaker 1: how would someone cover this up? That's a big question.
Speaker 1: How would you be able to keep this secret so effectively?
Speaker 1: Considering that nations are almost constantly a war, and then
Speaker 1: and you know, not really representing each other's interests, and then,
Speaker 1: more importantly ten dollar questions asked today, why why would
Speaker 1: you do this? You know, frenzies. Okay, because it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's just sort of interesting to have secrets. I could
Speaker 1: just think of better things to keep people in the
Speaker 1: dark about, and this is just not one of them.
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, there there there are quite a few.
Speaker 1: There are quite a few strange um things about the
Speaker 1: way the world is depicted. You know, no one, no
Speaker 1: one ever really questions in the US why the maps
Speaker 1: and the globes are oriented toward um with with the
Speaker 1: US dead center right and on top of the thing.
Speaker 1: We call it South America or something, when we know
Speaker 1: that there's no up and down in space. So it
Speaker 1: really makes no difference to an alien civilization or to
Speaker 1: anyone outside of this planet which continent is on top.
Speaker 1: But psychologically that's an important thing, you know. You know
Speaker 1: what My favorite depiction of a flat Earth comes from
Speaker 1: what you know, what is it? Uh? From Terry Pratchett's Discworld.
Speaker 1: It's depicted as a disc um perched atop the backs
Speaker 1: of Is it two elephants? Is there a third one
Speaker 1: that I'm not seeing? Either two or three? It would
Speaker 1: make more sense that it would be three, because you
Speaker 1: got to, you know, kind of making a star shape,
Speaker 1: and there has to be it has let's be logically exactly.
Speaker 1: And then those elephants are standing on the shell of
Speaker 1: a giant tortoise and all of this whole array is
Speaker 1: floating in space, which is awesome. I love it. It's
Speaker 1: just it's a fabulous image. Um. So that's yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's what I thinks. This This makes me think of
Speaker 1: other conspiratorial things regarding maps. One thing that may interest
Speaker 1: you if you haven't checked it out yet, listeners, please
Speaker 1: spend some quality time with Google Maps, because Google Maps
Speaker 1: plays nice with all the countries of the world that
Speaker 1: it can. If you ask them to hide a specific site,
Speaker 1: secret city, something like that, and yet there are still
Speaker 1: quite a few of those, uh, then Google will block
Speaker 1: it out for you as best they can. But Google
Speaker 1: also shows different borders for countries depending upon the origin
Speaker 1: point of the search, So you know there are massive
Speaker 1: ongoing border skirmishes as people say no, we own this,
Speaker 1: no I own this, etcetera. And Google is actively participating
Speaker 1: in something very much like a multi national conspiracy. But
Speaker 1: also you know they don't. It seems like the most
Speaker 1: efficacious way to avoid getting in trouble with the government
Speaker 1: is just tell both of them that they're right. That
Speaker 1: that is. That's some of the stuff that this leads
Speaker 1: me to think about. But today we've done our flat
Speaker 1: Earth update. We'd love to hear from you guys. Do
Speaker 1: you mind if I wrap up this discussion with a quote?
Speaker 1: I would love that. So this is from a song
Speaker 1: by the much underappreciated artists must Dolby and it's from
Speaker 1: his album The Flat Earth, which I recommend highly, and
Speaker 1: so I've been listening to it a lot lately. And
Speaker 1: it's from the title track, Hold Me Baby. The Earth
Speaker 1: can be any shape you wanted, Love me, Darling. Believe me, Darling,
Speaker 1: any shape at all. Hold me Baby, dark and cold
Speaker 1: or bright and warm. Love me Darling, long or thin
Speaker 1: or small. Believe me, Darling, but it's home home. Maybe
Speaker 1: hold me baby, and all I ever had? Love me, Darling,
Speaker 1: And maybe why for me? Believe me, Darling, the earth
Speaker 1: is flat? Interesting to give a moment of silence out
Speaker 1: of respect. We have a couple of special announcements before
Speaker 1: we go. First, we would like you to check out
Speaker 1: our uh, our upcoming guest host. We're gonna have a
Speaker 1: personal friend of mine that we have mentioned before, Damien
Speaker 1: Williams Uh. You can find him on Twitter. He's at Wolven.
Speaker 1: He will be joining Nolan I for an episode on
Speaker 1: alchemy and an episode on technology and the occult cult
Speaker 1: Cult Cult Cult Cult Cult Cult. But you're wondering, hey, Ben,
Speaker 1: why didn't you mention Matt. Well, Matt, you're out a mission. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm on a completely disclosed mission to Charleston, South Carolina,
Speaker 1: or around about that area, because I'm gonna head over
Speaker 1: to the to the Naval Nuclear Power Training Command. I'm
Speaker 1: calling it a campus because I don't know the correct terminology.
Speaker 1: It is a base, but they there is a campus
Speaker 1: within the base there. But I'm gonna go and support
Speaker 1: my brother in law, who is I guess graduating up
Speaker 1: to the next level. Again, I don't know the terminology.
Speaker 1: It's not an accommodation or anything. He's just moving up
Speaker 1: the ranks in in the school, so I guess it's
Speaker 1: a graduation. Is it like getting a yellow belt. I
Speaker 1: think it's a little more significant than that, but yes,
Speaker 1: kind of yellow belts are a big deal. I remember
Speaker 1: when I got my yellow belt. It was okay, I
Speaker 1: never got the yellow nice humble brag, no, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very cool. So what I'm going to attempt to
Speaker 1: do on Friday is broadcast live if you know, if
Speaker 1: it's not against too many protocols or if the signal
Speaker 1: strength is strong enough. Uh So, hopefully that will be
Speaker 1: interesting in some way because it's a it's a neat place,
Speaker 1: it's a place where a lot of people go who
Speaker 1: end up working in the nuclear sector in the US.
Speaker 1: I think you mean nuclear, Yes, in the nuclear power
Speaker 1: energy sector. So uh, stay tuned for that. And Matt,
Speaker 1: I'm sure the rest of the listeners joining Nolan, I
Speaker 1: am wishing you the best of luck. And don't push it, man,
Speaker 1: don't don't get don't get jammed up. We will see
Speaker 1: what happens. Al right, So we're gonna get out of here.
Speaker 1: Riddle me this. Where can everybody find all of our
Speaker 1: audio podcast? Well, um, you can find them on iTunes.
Speaker 1: And if you get them on iTunes, you guys, leave
Speaker 1: a nice leave a review, you know, leave us a
Speaker 1: little review, a couple of stars, not not a couple.
Speaker 1: Do three at least, you know, four would be great,
Speaker 1: and write something, you know, because that really helps get
Speaker 1: the podcast out where people can see it. You know,
Speaker 1: the more reviews there are, the more the algorithm kind
Speaker 1: of pushes the show out to folks that maybe haven't
Speaker 1: discovered it yet. So that would be a great way
Speaker 1: to help the show. If you don't, if iTunes is
Speaker 1: not your jam and you're more of a Stitcher, Spotify,
Speaker 1: Google Play, Um, is that all of them? There's other ones.
Speaker 1: It's coming out every day, but We're pretty much available
Speaker 1: on any platform that you can get podcast or you
Speaker 1: can go directly to our website. You can stuff they
Speaker 1: Don't want you to know dot com. What can they
Speaker 1: find their Matt, You can find everything we've ever produced
Speaker 1: Jaws And that's the end of this classic episode. If
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you
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