WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 26 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:05.040 Okay recording. You have a story to tell and maybe 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.600 you've thought I should start a podcast. Meet Anchor. It's 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.840 a powerful app that let's record a podcast anywhere and 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.400 get it hurt everywhere. All you need to do is 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.480 download the free Anchor app and hit record. Just go 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.480 to anchor dot fm, slash get started. Make a podcast 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:28.880 with Anchor. That's Anchor dot fm slash get started. Great. 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.480 I think we got it. Hey it's Delilah. Did you 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.960 know I have a new daily podcast. It drops Monday 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.880 through Friday, and it's about ten or fifteen minutes long 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:44.080 each day. It's a mixture of my favorite radio moments, 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:49.000 curated around themes like finding your soul mate, second chances, 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:54.840 learning to love yourself, and the power of forgiveness. Something 0:00:54.960 --> 0:01:01.120 a little different each day. Subscribe to Hey It's Delilah today. Hey, 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.000 I'm Maya Shunker, host of a slight Change of Plans, 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.759 which was recently named best show of the Year by 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.360 Apple for One, and we've got new episodes for you 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.720 about everything from the science of change to personal stories 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:16.920 like a blind woman who becomes a master chef and 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.040 an Australian doctor who rescued a voice soccer team from 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:24.319 Deep within a cave in Thailand. Listen to a slight 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:26.880 change of plans on the I Heart Radio app, Apple 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:32.679 Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:34.720 Evans here and I wanted to let you know this 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.240 is a compiletion episode. So every episode of the week 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.000 that just happened is here in one convenient and with 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.240 somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.760 a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:49.680 to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:51.880 nothing new here for you, but you can make your 0:01:51.880 --> 0:02:01.560 own decisions. Oh it could welcome year the podcast that 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:08.280 happens ship. All right, Well st Andrew, I'm gonna I'm 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:10.960 gonna I'm gonna pivot to you to to pull us 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:15.400 out of this tailspin. I've locked. Hello. Hello, what's the 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.840 seen everyone today? I wanted to go on a bit 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:23.000 of a personal meandering. I guess on um, some of 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.519 the ideas and concepts that just kind of floating on 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:30.600 my head um surrounding sustainable city planning and city living. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:33.520 I want to see a lot of these ideas and stuff, 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:38.799 um kind of just crimp them from like all over 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.560 the place, and in some cases they are a bit 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:49.480 less I would say viable and others. But I do 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.000 find like the work of for example, Low Tech Magazine, 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:57.160 dot com and UM and so on to be very 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:05.240 inspiring in terms of all abilities, UM, what potential there is, 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:11.640 an obsolete technologies, what the tech solutions exist for issues, 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.880 and what we can do as people to just kind 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:22.360 of make living in urban sprawl or suburban hell a 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:30.919 little bit less hellish. Yeah. That is definitely a topic 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:32.840 close to my heart as well as someone who lives 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:37.800 in a city. I would like cities to be less hellish. Yeah, 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:41.120 that seems and I would like suburbs and not exist 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:46.520 so internal more on the suburbs. We have to ally 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:53.000 with rural America and protracted people against the suburbs. Yes, yes, yeah, 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.880 my my my crank proposal has always been reintroducing Macedons 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.320 and just like just having Macedon is just like walking 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.360 through and destroying buildings, because that's that's what the suburbs deserves. 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:09.440 Masters is in the actual animals. Yes, yes, I thought 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.240 you meant like the social media platform. No, no, I 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.880 think we need to clone leopards so that they breed 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.320 as quickly as rabbits and just let them loose. Wasn't 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.360 Dr diferen Schmitz raised by leopards? Sure? Why not? I 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:30.680 would Robertino, who doctor difference verches. No, let's just let's 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:36.040 just let's just let's just let's just move on. Okay. 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:41.120 I think I'm I think I think we are. We 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.520 are roughly the same, in the same age bracket for television. 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:50.320 We watched so i'm movies to catch up on. I'm 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:54.120 very familiar with the Good Doctor period, the platypus pilled. Yes, 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:59.680 I am very, very very platipilled, as they say, platipilled. 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:08.919 Let's right. So, um, there are a lot of aspects 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:14.120 of my evil plan to make the entire tri state 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:18.479 area more sustainable, But I think I would want to 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:20.960 start with something that tends to consume a lot of 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.560 the energy in cities, and that is like heating and cooling. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.360 I mean, for me, living in a tropical country, heating 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:33.880 has never been a consideration. Um. I mean, the coolst 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:37.960 it gets isn't like the I would say, like eighteen 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:44.640 nineteen twenty degrees celsius area. Um, And to me, that 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.160 is like chili, that's like layering up kind of thing 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.920 because I can't handle that kind of cool um, which 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:52.120 is kind of wild to me that I have a 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.800 considered moving to Canada. I don't think I'll be able 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.920 to handle it. It does, it does get it does 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.719 get much colder. I mean we when I was in Canada, 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:06.760 we would have not not uncommonly have minus forty celsius weeks. 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:16.039 So yeah, yeah, experienced minus degrees before. I don't know, no, no, 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.039 it is. Oh, it's fine, it's it's not a big deal. 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:20.800 You just put on an extra pair of socks. You're 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:22.680 good to go. Okay, So when when it when it 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:28.960 hits negative forty degrees fahrenheit, you've experienced negative forty degrees. 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:34.080 It's not like it's not like temperatures like negative negative forty. 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.640 Negative forty fahrenheit is the temperature of the surface of 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:42.960 bars are a sunny day. Well, actually, negative fairness is 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.800 the same as negative forty celsius. Oh is it they 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:52.479 actually converged that point. Yeah, it's like you just yeah, yeah, 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.280 it's just her hain like it's not even cold anymore, 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.320 Like you just like your your face just hurts. It's 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.160 it's great, it's so many time I'm to call my 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:04.200 my my favorite name again and have negative forty fahrenheit, 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:09.920 negative forty selfius celsius clapping hands in the middle. Yeah, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:19.800 classics anyway, Yes, yea, Honestly, I can't even conceive of 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:24.000 that kind of temperature. Um. I am an island boy, 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:30.760 so that's how I operate, and as an island boy. Um, 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:36.120 how to say that? Like heat is very very uncomfortable. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:42.280 Humidic humid heat is even more uncomfortable. Dry heat is 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:46.520 also extremely uncomfortable. When you have a hot day combined 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:53.480 with like sahara and dust in the air and no 0:07:53.680 --> 0:08:00.920 clouds in the sky, it is truly, truly miserable. I 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:07.080 can't imagine, um, what life in a city would be 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.760 like if, um, you know, these sort of temperatures continue 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:16.040 to climb as they are climbing, Um, as we're seeing 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.880 you know, global average temperatures rising by you know, a 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:24.320 half degree or a degree or two degrees cells. Yes, 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.000 that's just ridiculous, let alone three or four degrees celsius increase, 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:34.040 especially compounded with the fact that in a city there's 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.880 this thing called the urban heat island effect. So cities 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:42.840 are ten degrees it's hotter than the surrounding countryside, and 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:44.720 the reasons for the other numerous. You know, you have 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:51.000 like vehicles emitting heat constantly, you have air conditioners pumping 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:55.319 heat into the air. You have concrete and covering every 0:08:55.480 --> 0:09:00.439 surface just like absorbing and radiating the sun's rays. And 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.760 you have these urban canyons between tall buildings that prevent 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.600 heat from escaping from and to keep it at the 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:13.040 sort of street level. It's miserable, right, And the typical solutions, 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:17.079 the individual solutions, the short term solutions, they just make 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.760 the situation worse because, I mean, when you're feeling hot, 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:21.440 I mean I was just feeling hot just now and 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.079 I fell on the e C. Right when you're feeling hot, 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:25.360 you know, you're seeing on the e C. Or you 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.880 put on a fan, but not to wash a fan, 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:33.360 But the a C continues and fuels this vicious cycle 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:37.480 of heating the outdoors to cool the indoors, making experience 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.960 spaces even more uncomfortable. So you end up with air 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:47.520 conditioning use accounting for like one five of global energy 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:53.160 electricity usage of building related global electricity usage, and you 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:55.360 end up with the thing that'supposed to be cooling us 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:01.719 heating things even more because you know, as developing countries, 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.120 you know they have access to one and more air conditioning, 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.000 especially and you know, to helping countries and to be 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.600 in the hotter side of the world. Um, you know, 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.199 the use of their condition just continues to sky rop 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:18.720 it and um the International Energy Agency actually estimated that 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.079 it would take the amount of energy needed to cool 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:26.600 buildings will triple by twenty which is equivalent to the 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:33.640 current elecacy demand in the US and Germany combined. So 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:37.840 on top of all that, you will have an issue 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:44.920 of like heat and heat deaths, right, the deaths and 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:49.880 injuries caused by heat, I mean heat stroke is becoming 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:53.280 more and more of an issue in cities, especially when 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:57.400 you know temperatures reach above twenty five degrees celsius. People 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.959 you know, manual labels, people who work outside, people who 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.439 have to move around a lot, you know, experience the 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.079 symptoms the symptoms of heat stroke whenever there is like 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.040 the spike in temperature. Right, and then even you know, 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:13.720 if you don't experience like a heat stroke, Heat is exhausting, 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:22.319 It is energy draining, is utterly sapping, and it requires 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.959 a lot out of your body to keep you cool 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:33.520 and prevent you from like eating and surprisingly this overheating 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.000 is you is not just like you know, a tropical 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:40.600 issue or like a hot country issue like places like 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:45.240 Moscow had like and asked me to eleven th people 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.760 die due to heat wave in twenty ten, and so 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:51.720 with all these heat waves and stuff, we need to 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.199 like figure out what to do with all these giant 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:00.800 concrete buildings. I mean, and for some people like equal 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:05.880 brutalism is you know, wow, so cool to me personally, 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.480 And this is just my subjective opinion. I find it 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:13.040 ugly and disgusting and I hated but you know, right 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:17.960 brutalism discourse. I mean, what what do you all think 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:25.240 of rutalism. I think Yugoslavia brutalism was cool. Every other 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.640 kind of brutalism is just like my opinions on brutalism 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:33.320 boiled down to thinking the game control is fun. I 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:38.600 had stayed in a Yugoslavian brutalist architecture hotel, which was 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.680 one of the weirdest nights of my life because it 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.040 was clearly made. It was like one of these gigantic 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.400 like people's hotels that was meant to provide everyone with 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.480 vacations and so there's like twenty thousand rooms and we 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.400 were like the only three people there, so there was 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.120 one person at the desk and it's just cavern of 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.560 empty rooms such this. Everything felt like a liminal space. 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.720 It was. It was very odd. It can it could 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.320 be very very uncanny. It wasn't like bad, it was 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:08.559 like reasonably well constructed. It was just deeply strange. I 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.800 mean that's to spend the night. I think that's what 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.040 makes the game control so cool? Is that. Yeah, it 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.800 plays with those uncanny feelings on Brutalism while still being 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.880 like very cool, Like it's still it's the game that 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.440 Jacob Keller made a video voute right, yes he made 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.160 a he he didn't make a video like I watched 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.360 that recently. This is like the sort of oldest house 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.200 kind of thing, right right, right right, yeah, yeah, I 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.960 wanted to go that game because I mean that's what 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.079 that's kind of like my issue at Brutalism. It feels 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:44.200 like a boss level in a video game, like you 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.720 have to go through each level clear what's all dominians, 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.240 and it gets it Tot and Pete the boss. It's 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:53.000 kind of unsettling, yes, and then like Eco brutalism is 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:59.000 just like, oh what if trees tres Yeah, and it's 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.160 like okay, will But I mean, like one of my 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:07.760 many occupations, and I still maintain it seasonally. Um. I 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.000 was a power washer and I hate moss, and so 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.480 to see moss all over buildings just really bothers me. 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.199 Like I just want to get you know, my spring 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:20.520 gun and just clear it all off. Um. And especially 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.760 in like this climate, mass is like a very significant issue. 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:28.080 So that that makes sense, you know, Yeah, one of 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:32.800 my pet peeves among many. So I mean there's many 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:36.200 different ways we could combat the when heat island effects 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:43.320 um that don't involve eco brutalism. And they can also 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.880 help to facility, you know, creating more attractive spaces to 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:51.600 live and to play, you know. Um. Obviously the solution 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:53.920 isn't just like build those every building there ever been 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.880 built and make it more sustainable, you know, with vernacular 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.560 materials and stuff. So of course new buildings should be 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.280 built with principles in mind. Um, but you know, it's 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.800 not practical to us even sustainable to destroy all the 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.000 buildings we've already built and rebuild them. You know, the 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:15.320 best thing we can do is try to mitigate and 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:21.680 adapt with what we already have, um, greenery and I 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:25.280 know it's just roasting eco brutalism just trap slack trees 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:30.320 and everything is an important part in that, right because 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:35.760 you know it called it causes evapple transporation, which is 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:41.080 like where water evaporates and plants leaves and cools the temperature. Um. 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:48.840 You know it also improve people's like psychological well being. Um. 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.560 And they just the nice look at um, the nice 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.560 look at the keep things cool. In fact, they can 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.280 help cause temperatures to drop by like two to three 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.440 degrees celsius in the like the surrounding area. I think 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.640 people certainly misinterpreted, but like this, this is one of 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:05.880 the big things you can see with with racism in 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.920 the U S. Where like you can literally like you 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.320 can literally track racial divides in a lot of American 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.240 cities by the by the temperature because like people places 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:19.280 where not why people live just don't have trees. And 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.800 you know this this has like a just this sort 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:29.200 of like cascading series of environmental and social effects which 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:36.720 are a disaster and environmental racism, Yeah, yes, released stock. Honestly, 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:38.120 if you look at the heat maps or some of 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.320 these it's use and you could literally see, you know, 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.160 where poor black folks live. You know, you can see 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.320 the places with less trees, the places next to factories 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:50.520 with like talks like you're on off and weese and 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.280 that kind of thing. It's just you know, right there, 0:16:54.320 --> 0:17:00.120 and it sucks. Which is why, of course, parts of 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:07.520 any sort of efforts to improve cities and make things 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:13.120 more sustainable would involve you know, social justice, and would 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:19.520 involve responding to an addressing the compounding effects of like 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:25.440 environmental racism over the past several decades so. And part 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.600 of the issue again sign things back to environmental racism 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:33.800 is that a lot of the climate change policies that 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:40.280 you know, ostensibly amends to fever, like high density urban 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.600 and smart growth, you know, like sustainable blocks and that 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:48.280 kind of thing. They are not conceived or implemented in 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:54.240 a way that involves the people being affected by them. 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.280 You know. In fact, a lot of these like sort 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:03.840 of green um projects raise the cost of food, energy, 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.119 what transport housing for people in the area. You know, 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:12.760 they create these sorts of like gentrified neighborhoods, essentially whether 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:17.439 original inhabitants can no longer afford to live there. So 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.840 if we wants to develop like a sustainable city, resiliencity, 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:30.679 sustainable oversilain neighborhood, it requires social justice, It requires you know, 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:37.480 equity and you know, like the involvement of all affected 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:45.280 through you know consensus or democracy UM to just really 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:51.920 shape the future that you know they will be experiencing 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:56.520 because they're the ones being affected by it. There are 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.119 a lot of other ways as well to heap proof 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:06.320 a city. UM reflective roofs and roads. UM can also 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:14.359 helped reduce the absorbedtive powers of UM solar radiation by 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.480 concrete and asphalt. So in fact, in some cities like 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.280 l A and in New York, there's this wide reflective 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:28.840 coating that UM has been implemented in some five thousand 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.280 meters square of roof space that saves an estimated two 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:37.840 thousand two tons of CEO two per year from cooling emissions. 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.399 I mean, all it takes really is just like that 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:46.040 sort of white reflective coat, and it saves dividends in 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.879 the long run. UM NASA had done some research on 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:55.200 this and it demonstrated the results demonstrated that a white 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.960 roof could be twenty three degrees celsius or forty two 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:03.359 degrees fahrenheit ruler than a typical black roof UM on 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:12.840 a hot New York somebody UM and places where like yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:14.600 I'm sorry, it's kind of like gloss the river that 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:20.359 is crazy. That is absolutely absolutely right. And then in 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:25.199 cities where like we're like of the land area is 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:30.560 like asphalt, you can imagine how that sort of UM, 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:36.600 that sort of reflective ceilan can impact, um the cooling 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:41.919 or the heating of the area. Water. Of course, it's 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:51.719 another like important aspect of cooling cities. UM. In andaluse Um, 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.919 which was like the Muslim kingdom in Gabrian Peninsula in 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:01.240 the fourteenth century UM, they used to have these sort 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:05.959 of like courtyards with pools and fountains. They would stimulate 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:11.680 water evaporation and cool the air, and so like cities today, 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.919 you know take some hints from that. You know, you 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.479 have ponds and pools and fountains and missing systems and 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:20.719 stuff that can sort of chill things out. I mean 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:26.800 we see that being UM implemented in China, where you 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:32.760 have like, for example, UM water miss does at like 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:37.240 bus stops which can chill the air and you know, 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.040 cool passengers as they wait um, and they found actually 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:47.239 that adding water features and like cool coatings reduces the 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:52.080 cooling requirements of an area by twenty nine and also 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:54.960 lowers the overall averaging at temperature by one point five 0:21:55.160 --> 0:22:00.520 degrees celsius. So it's like, honestly, why, how like these 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.399 little things can have such a major impact on temperature. 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:11.280 Speaking of like old methods of cooling um ancient methods 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:15.600 of cooling, there's this Middle Eastern shading device called the 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:20.919 mastra bil um or I think it's mastra ba, and 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:25.120 it's basically an architectural element that is usually built by 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:31.440 um wooden lattice work and sometimes stay in the glass. 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:37.960 It's used to like catch and cool the wind through 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:42.520 like having these basins of water in them. Is I mean, 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:44.600 so I could try to describe it. It's like a 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:50.159 window jutting out of a building um with sort of 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:54.320 decorated by lattice work, with jars and basins of water 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.280 placed within them to let the wind pasture. And as 0:22:57.280 --> 0:22:59.679 the wind is passing through, it's caused an evaporative cooling 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:05.080 then it chills out the interior. And to these mastra 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:10.640 beas um. They've been used since the Middle Ages by 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:17.120 you know, the Coptic churches of Egypt and the Art 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:22.240 Deco movement in Iraq, and and by you know, the 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:27.560 architecture um in bad Dad as well. And so these 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:30.880 sort of construction methods, while they tend to be developed 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:35.840 for you know, individual homes or individual buildings, um, they 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:40.600 can in fact be implemented um with even the aesthetics 0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:47.040 of Islamic geometry to help to cool a building and 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:50.840 produce its overall seor twe missions. So I've been talking 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:54.200 about heating and cooling and stuff for a while now, 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:56.560 and speaking of I should probably turn on me easy, 0:23:57.160 --> 0:23:59.920 turn off my a C. Rather, I think I heard 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.200 either either it was you, Andrew, or maybe it was 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:10.360 Robert talking about the ceramic kind of cooling idea. Yeah, 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.000 I mean that's the thing. And like the parts of 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:15.600 the Americans Southwest, like New Mexico, there's a lot of 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:18.920 like swamp coolers that are basically worked, right, Yeah, swamp cool, 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:22.240 swamp cool. It only works in certain climates, right, Like 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:26.000 you wouldn't really don't because it's if it's too it's 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:31.680 too humid, it's not gonna work. You're just gonna Yeah. 0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:35.080 I think there's kind of a broader thing there architecturally, 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.760 which is that like we have a lot of sort 0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:43.840 of like like we we've we've lost a lot of 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:46.200 in the way we do architecturally. We've lost a lot 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.840 of the sort of like building we we've lost a 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:53.520 lot of sort of building techniques adapted to specific locations. 0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:57.919 Yeah if not, yeah, yeah, And like that's something that 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:01.919 has to be reversed, like immediately. Guess yeah, Like our 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:06.080 our current model of building houses out of oil is 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:10.879 going to get us all killed. Really, what's what's the 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:14.240 problem there? What's wrong? What's on that? I mean on 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:18.200 top of that, right, not just vernacular architecture, but vernacular clothing. 0:25:19.119 --> 0:25:22.560 I mean it's I mean as again, so when living 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:24.560 in a tropical country, I see it for myself, like 0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:30.800 working people going to work wearing like full long sleeve 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:34.919 dress shoots and long long dress pants and you know, 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:41.200 like formal shoes, and it's honestly up, you know sometimes 0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:43.360 like they have the whole tie like you know, pull 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:47.840 up and everything. It's not it's entirely based on like 0:25:47.920 --> 0:25:54.480 European standards of professionalism, and um, it needs to be abolish. 0:25:54.640 --> 0:25:58.680 Abolish dress goods, all right, abolished like this whole idea 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:02.520 that you know, we have to rest this particular way, um, 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:07.800 despite you know, the temperature, because it's more professional or 0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:13.199 whatever for professionalism. Honestly, yeah, we we have we have 0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:16.000 podcasting or in the vanguard of this, but we need 0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:20.640 to help to destroy professionalism once and for all. Yeah yeah, 0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:22.760 ye show up to where can you be then suit 0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:30.919 h um. But yeah, like vernacular buildings as well. You know, 0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:36.440 obviously you had in in Africa, in different parts of Africa, 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:41.520 you would have difference structures that were particularly ticults. You know, 0:26:41.560 --> 0:26:44.200 if you're in a in a tropical reinforcet environment, you 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:46.600 would have a bill in a steeler to you know, 0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:52.359 keeping mosquitoes out and maintaining a certain temperature within and 0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:57.400 maintaining comfort as well within or you know, in cooler 0:26:57.520 --> 0:27:02.240 regions you would have um, certain construction that would keep 0:27:02.320 --> 0:27:12.800 heats within the building and prevent um excessive discomfort you know. Um. 0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:14.920 And they were also of course, like when it comes 0:27:14.920 --> 0:27:19.360 to like cooler areas, you will also expected to sort 0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:22.320 of keep yourself warm as well as you know, keep 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:24.560 your building woman. In fact, it was more so keeping 0:27:24.600 --> 0:27:27.159 yourself personally warm, so keeping yourself lay up even when 0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:29.760 you're indoors, and of course that's kind of lost today 0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:32.119 people are expected to just you know, turn on the 0:27:32.200 --> 0:27:37.199 heater and vibe for the months of winter. But it 0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:41.040 isn't sustainable. A lot of things we enjoy today unsustainable. 0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:45.080 Keeps coming back to that. But yeah, speaking of things 0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:48.280 that we enjoy that are not at all sustainable, how 0:27:48.280 --> 0:27:52.600 about cause get rid of cause? Please get rid of cause. 0:27:53.200 --> 0:27:56.240 I mean, cause are very convenient in terms of like, 0:27:56.400 --> 0:28:01.159 if you want to get somewhere very specific, um, you know, 0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:03.439 if there's a place you want to go, I'm the 0:28:03.560 --> 0:28:07.040 one you need to know. I'm a car. I'm a car. 0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:11.359 I'm a car. You know kind of thing. But my 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:17.400 little musical interview there, thank you for appreciating it. But ultimately, 0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:25.159 like they honestly aren't sustainable. They honestly on something that 0:28:25.200 --> 0:28:29.400 we can maintain in the nail even for well potentially 0:28:29.400 --> 0:28:32.760 in the neighbuance. Where's the far future. I mean, people 0:28:32.840 --> 0:28:35.800 are already know the problems with gascars, already know my 0:28:35.920 --> 0:28:38.840 gascars are bad. But you know, things just just things 0:28:38.880 --> 0:28:43.280 are just sort of pivoted towards electric cars and who 0:28:43.480 --> 0:28:45.640 electric cars, Let's get a bunch of electric cars. Who 0:28:46.480 --> 0:28:51.840 but electric cars aren't better. I mean the materials they require, 0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:58.960 the energy they required, it's quite frankly not sustainable in 0:28:59.000 --> 0:29:04.000 the long run, and it just lengthens the amount of 0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:08.320 time that we spend dependence on a cause for short 0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:11.520 and long distance travel. And especially how in the States 0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:14.240 we've built our cities around the idea of a car, 0:29:14.320 --> 0:29:18.440 which has expanded the urban terrain unnecessarily. And if you 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:19.720 look at like all the space taken up by like 0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:22.760 highways and overpasses, and how much of just like urban 0:29:22.880 --> 0:29:25.360 space is taken up but just been built around the 0:29:25.440 --> 0:29:29.280 idea of the car, it really kind of makes the 0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:32.640 whole idea of a city so much less useful. It's 0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:35.680 it's really it's really frustrating. And I think it's also 0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:40.600 working at the cars are so unbelievably dangerous yea, yeah, yeah, 0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:43.320 we're very much used to like having these like death 0:29:43.440 --> 0:29:47.200 machines driving around at all times, and that that makes 0:29:47.240 --> 0:29:52.840 for like a very um cool like series of metal 0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:57.720 band song names or whatever. But the death statistics on 0:29:58.640 --> 0:30:02.440 funny when it comes to cause. No, and like the 0:30:02.600 --> 0:30:08.120 average transport transportation time having cars has not actually decreased 0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:10.400 like the amount of time it takes to get from 0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:12.320 place to place based on like where you live in 0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:15.000 your city has not actually increased because now everything has 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:18.360 just spread further apart. So a hundred years ago would 0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:20.200 take you know, like a fifteen minute trek to get 0:30:20.240 --> 0:30:22.640 to like, you know, the market or something. It can 0:30:22.760 --> 0:30:24.960 take oft times longer, especially if you're driving in like 0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:27.640 rush hour traffic to get just just just like a 0:30:27.720 --> 0:30:30.840 couple of miles, where even in some cases a decent 0:30:30.920 --> 0:30:34.160 job get you there faster. Um, just because of how 0:30:34.360 --> 0:30:37.840 we've just designed the cities all around these rolling metal 0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:41.560 death cages. Um. Yeah, it's not it's it's not great. 0:30:41.680 --> 0:30:44.840 It's one of the reasons I don't currently have a car. Yeah, 0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:47.200 And that's kind of that's something that's shocking to a 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:49.040 lot of people when I tell them that, really, I 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:52.120 have no intention if I a buying a call of 0:30:52.280 --> 0:30:56.160 ever owning a call. It's not something that I want. 0:30:56.560 --> 0:31:02.720 And I mean I live relatively close to like some 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:07.520 of the major transport um arteries of the country, and 0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:13.160 you know, not has like this unique ish transportation system 0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:17.160 public transportation systems, So we have these privately owned maxi 0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:23.560 taxis that um, they're like vans with seats in the 0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:27.240 back UM, and you know, you could you just kind 0:31:27.280 --> 0:31:31.000 of jump in UM depending on where they're going with Ruth. 0:31:31.040 --> 0:31:34.680 They're taken UM and they're they're convenient enough for me 0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:37.320 and for my purposes, so I just, you know, I go, 0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:42.840 I need to go um with them. But they're also 0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:48.720 gas guzzling in efficient machines. I mean, they're better than 0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:51.560 you know, all those people driving cars. I mean as 0:31:51.600 --> 0:31:53.360 an island, you know, like I don't know why we're 0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:56.160 so obsessed with having more and more cars on the road, UM, 0:31:56.720 --> 0:31:59.680 but at the end of the day, they still aren't 0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:06.560 the best in terms of sustainability and in terms of viable, reliable, 0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:13.320 sustainable transport. UM. We also have like personal taxis as well, 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:16.800 but they have the same problems as regular taxis. And 0:32:16.880 --> 0:32:20.400 what's frustrating is that we used to have a train 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:25.479 line UM that went along the entire east west corridor 0:32:25.920 --> 0:32:27.960 of the country, and that's where most of the people 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:32.320 internet along the East West corridor UM. But that was 0:32:32.440 --> 0:32:36.640 destroyed in the nineties sixties, I think, to make way 0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:40.320 for highways and a priority bus route. So instead of 0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:43.760 having a nice, convenient, cute, little train that we could 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:46.600 take to go from place to place. You have to 0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:54.400 rely on busses and maxis and taxis and cause, yeah, 0:32:54.520 --> 0:32:58.720 that is quite that's not cool, that is quite not good, 0:32:59.160 --> 0:33:02.600 quite quite him, because we need to reconfigure. Seriously, I 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:07.400 would love for them to bring back trains. He was 0:33:07.520 --> 0:33:10.880 to take a train, don't have to rely on I mean, 0:33:13.600 --> 0:33:17.960 government bureaucracy makes all things unreliable. But I think a 0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:21.720 train would have been slightly more reliable than a bus. 0:33:22.760 --> 0:33:24.480 Very much on the pro train, on the on the 0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:29.520 pro train train a fewer, a few fewer, fewer moments 0:33:29.560 --> 0:33:33.560 more happy than writing the Portland's max line and streetcar 0:33:33.760 --> 0:33:37.960 in a no face costume. It's very it's it's very fun. 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:42.719 I think. Also, like another thing about about cars, right, 0:33:43.080 --> 0:33:44.880 this is just it's just just on a very pure 0:33:44.920 --> 0:33:47.560 political level, like cars is the thing that allowed suburbs 0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:52.000 to exist, and the existence of suburbs has produced just 0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:57.320 generation upon generation of like frothing reactionaries who are the 0:33:57.440 --> 0:34:01.520 source of like enormous percentages of the world's problems. And 0:34:01.640 --> 0:34:04.360 so if you get rid of those places, you produce 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:08.160 less of them. Yeah, which is just a political benefit 0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:14.120 for anyone who wants to not die exactly exactly. I mean, 0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:17.879 we don't think about it because there already so many 0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:20.319 things to think about. But if you actually sat down 0:34:20.640 --> 0:34:28.520 and pondered the death tool of like cause, um we 0:34:28.640 --> 0:34:31.480 really and really brought to the forefront and really made 0:34:31.520 --> 0:34:34.279 it less of a necessity. I think one more people 0:34:34.320 --> 0:34:36.719 would be open to the idea of rejecting cause to 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:43.600 keeping them as at most benign a novelty um that 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:48.560 maybe one or two exists in the entire community, UM 0:34:48.760 --> 0:34:53.600 for use if needs be UM, But otherwise I I 0:34:53.680 --> 0:34:58.399 don't see how each and every person in the world 0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:04.839 owning their own car, is that all the best way 0:35:04.920 --> 0:35:13.879 to go. Also cause it kind of ugly to me. Yeah, 0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:18.719 we really didn't design them to look cool, which just 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:21.479 it's I mean, there's some cars that look kind of cool, 0:35:21.560 --> 0:35:25.839 like some of the more classic ones. But and that's 0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:28.600 part of the issue, right, They're getting uglier to me, 0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:33.360 And they're also getting larger, you know, like people like 0:35:34.160 --> 0:35:36.640 they're raising their grills more and more so, like you 0:35:36.760 --> 0:35:41.239 basically a pedestrian killing machine. We've effectively undone most of 0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:44.640 the benefits of making cars safer for passengers by making 0:35:44.719 --> 0:35:49.239 them much more dangerous for pedestrians, which is entirely a 0:35:49.320 --> 0:35:53.200 marketing choice. Like, if you like the fucking trucks they 0:35:53.239 --> 0:35:56.160 were making twenty five years ago are just as useful 0:35:56.400 --> 0:35:58.480 um and in a lot of cases more useful for 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:02.160 like practical far more for hauling and whatnot, then the 0:36:02.239 --> 0:36:06.200 trucks they're making today they haven't meaningfully gotten better. They've 0:36:06.239 --> 0:36:09.399 just gotten a lot larger for no real reason other 0:36:09.480 --> 0:36:13.360 than it makes people feel like big men. Well, and 0:36:13.440 --> 0:36:14.920 then you get these fun you get these fun you 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:17.319 can you can look at the marketing people like explicitly 0:36:17.400 --> 0:36:21.280 talking about how like yeah, like they like basically explicitly 0:36:21.320 --> 0:36:25.120 playing into the fantasy of running over protesters and it's 0:36:25.280 --> 0:36:30.200 it's great, it's yeah, So get rid of cars and 0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:37.520 you won't have to deal with that. But Chris, how 0:36:37.719 --> 0:36:44.680 is that sustainable well viable? M hmm, good question. Introducing 0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:52.880 super blocks. Oh yes, superblocks are basically um neighborhoods of 0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:54.560 nine blocks, So I don't think they have to be 0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:59.920 I think the philosophy and ideas behind super blocks can 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:07.040 implemented suit different um cities of different histories and different layouts, 0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:12.680 especially localized especially like localized street cars within each city 0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:17.840 block within within each superblock like system exactly. So, just 0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:22.080 to clarify, the idea of super blocks are basically um, 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:26.200 you know, neighborhood of nine blocks where traffic is restricted 0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:29.520 to the roads on the outside of the block, which 0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:34.960 means that the interior of these super blocks are entirely walkable. That, 0:37:35.200 --> 0:37:39.080 combined with the idea of a superblock being um mixed use, 0:37:39.920 --> 0:37:44.520 means that people are mostly able to access their basic 0:37:44.600 --> 0:37:47.719 necessities within their city block. Are you able to like 0:37:48.400 --> 0:37:51.160 spend more time, have more open space, to spend more 0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:54.680 time to meet with people, to talk, to do do activities, 0:37:54.800 --> 0:37:57.920 to you know, have some relief from noise pollution and 0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:03.359 air pollution from vehicles, and to really like connects people 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:05.960 with the space they're living in and make the space 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:09.120 they're living in more livable. I mean, I don't live 0:38:09.920 --> 0:38:13.959 smack tab in the middle of like urban urban town, 0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:19.279 but I could imagine if people living in like New 0:38:19.400 --> 0:38:21.640 York or whatever, and you can't exactly step out of 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:25.239 your apartment and playing the road on a typically if 0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:27.000 you have kids or whatever, you know, they can't exactly 0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:33.840 just go run outside, um you will die exactly exactly exactly, 0:38:34.040 --> 0:38:36.399 And I mean people complain about like, oh kids, lease 0:38:36.440 --> 0:38:41.359 do some quo outside as much. But I mean, look 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:44.920 at outside, you know, look at what look at what 0:38:45.000 --> 0:38:49.400 has been created, um and reflect on that. I mean 0:38:49.520 --> 0:38:52.640 part of the assuer is um the way social media 0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:56.160 algorithms are designed to suck people into like cycles of addiction. 0:38:56.320 --> 0:39:00.719 But that's a whole another topic, right, Um, I think 0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:02.200 a lot of people, more people will be willing to 0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:05.279 be able to pull themselves out to that sort of 0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:13.360 harmful algorithmic. Hell, if there was an outside pull themselves 0:39:13.440 --> 0:39:20.799 out too, you know. But honestly, cities, especially a notorious 0:39:20.920 --> 0:39:23.560 for like not having places you can be where you 0:39:23.640 --> 0:39:30.279 don't have to spend money, and that sucks. So I think, um, 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:35.920 super blocks being places where you know, libraries and um 0:39:36.960 --> 0:39:42.040 place so people can eats community. It does seem to 0:39:42.080 --> 0:39:45.759 be missing or ignoring what we're going to lose with 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:49.239 super blocks, which is how how am I gonna roll 0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:51.960 down the streets smoking indow sipping on gin and juice 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:55.160 if I'm not allowed to drive within my block? Wow, 0:39:55.880 --> 0:40:00.399 I think we can. I think I've then you could 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:05.040 just get a bike who's cruising all the bicycle? Have 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:08.319 you tried smoking indow? Sipping on gin and juice while 0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:12.440 riding a bicycle. It's it's impossible get a couple holder 0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:18.120 anything as possible as a Snoop dogg eraser. No. But 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:22.600 the the idea of having like community gardens, community like kitchens, 0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:26.279 like a maker spaces, libraries, all these within like this 0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:29.799 super black framework, you know, like green spaces, it does 0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:33.480 make actual urban city living to seem attractive and not 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:38.279 like you're just living in nested concrete boxes. Yeah. I 0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:42.120 mean people like living cities because that's where everything's happening, right, 0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:45.000 But yeah, you you want people to take part in 0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:49.839 the things that are happening, but the places aren't livable. Yeah, 0:40:49.880 --> 0:40:52.080 you have the table that will continue to complain about 0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:54.040 until the end of time, which the table in Chicago 0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:56.040 Chinatown that threatens to arrest you for sitting at it. 0:40:56.600 --> 0:41:02.080 Like it's yeah, like the hostility tea of this goes 0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:05.480 back to like racism because of course everyone does, everything does, 0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:07.640 but you know a lot of these loitering laws and 0:41:07.680 --> 0:41:12.000 stuff whichly designed to target black people and to target 0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:16.320 you know, poor people, um like vagrancy laws and that 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:19.279 sort of thing just hostile people's existence. And that gets 0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:22.920 into like hostile architecture and that sort of thing. But 0:41:23.120 --> 0:41:26.319 I think with these super blocks, you know, we open 0:41:26.440 --> 0:41:31.640 up our spaces to make them welcoming to human existence, 0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:36.360 spaces that are not built around cars, built around commutes, 0:41:36.400 --> 0:41:40.279 built around week And this obviously is a transformation that 0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:46.040 requires more than just you know, vote for so and 0:41:46.200 --> 0:41:49.040 so and make this a degree and kind of thing. 0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:51.920 You need. You need something more substantial than that. You know, 0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:56.200 within these superblocks as well, you're you're able to take 0:41:56.280 --> 0:42:04.160 stock of how your block or whatever, you have a 0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:09.200 better mental sense of um community and able to take 0:42:09.200 --> 0:42:12.720 about a sense of even things like how your block 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:20.360 can communally sustain themselves and you know, reduce waste and 0:42:20.960 --> 0:42:27.720 all these different things. This in conjunction with struggle against 0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:30.120 capitalism in the state, but you know that is implied. 0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:34.040 This is you know, m this is the show. This 0:42:34.120 --> 0:42:35.640 is it could happen here. I don't know if you 0:42:35.760 --> 0:42:39.640 expect and like electoralism, but that's not really what we 0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:43.200 do around here. I mean the benefits to these sort 0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:46.600 of like super blocks, you know, these fifteen minutes soon 0:42:46.719 --> 0:42:49.680 so people can walk within fifteen minutes to get the essentials. 0:42:50.120 --> 0:42:53.600 The benefits are innumerable. You know that'ster airquality, less noise, 0:42:54.840 --> 0:43:01.120 healthy lifestyle, mental health boost But the issue is without 0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:06.920 a combination of you know, these projects and these activities 0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:14.240 with like anti capitalism and anti statism, it's it's tends 0:43:14.280 --> 0:43:17.840 to lend itself towards gentrification. And we've seen that in Spain, 0:43:18.040 --> 0:43:20.160 which is where UM some of these super blocks have 0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:24.719 been implemented. UM They've created like these locations that are 0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:28.640 obviously more desirable because who doesn't want to live in 0:43:28.760 --> 0:43:31.480 a superblock where you know, you actually have a sense 0:43:31.480 --> 0:43:34.360 of community because we're all desperate for that. UM and 0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:37.600 at least an increase in property demand, higher prices, higher 0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:42.440 rent it basically creates these pockets of unaffordable neighborhoods, displacing 0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:44.920 local residents. So you have to get into the fight 0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:50.920 against gentrification in order to make this, you know, idea viable. 0:43:51.760 --> 0:43:54.440 The last thing that I want to get into really is, 0:43:54.840 --> 0:43:58.640 as con mentioned UM community gardens. I want to talk 0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:02.920 about urban farming because that is crucial. I mean, part 0:44:03.000 --> 0:44:07.280 of what UM makes cities cities in all the cases 0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:10.960 is the fact that they import all their food. Right, 0:44:11.239 --> 0:44:16.920 they have the urban rural divide that you know, delineates 0:44:16.960 --> 0:44:24.600 the two areas, UM. But considering the transportation costs, the 0:44:24.760 --> 0:44:31.520 energy costs, all those things that compound UM two sustain 0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:37.279 a city, a city's food needs, we have to look 0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:41.960 to ways that we can sustain cities and sustain neighborhoods 0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:49.040 within cities, UM, within themselves. Before I continue, I just 0:44:49.080 --> 0:44:51.600 want to point out that the future of urban farming 0:44:51.960 --> 0:44:57.440 is not in vertical farms. UM. They look very cool, 0:44:57.840 --> 0:45:01.520 you know, like those tall kind of like pillars of 0:45:01.640 --> 0:45:04.360 like letters or whatever, growing out sort of things, but 0:45:05.719 --> 0:45:09.360 the land that they save is usually canceled out by 0:45:09.440 --> 0:45:13.200 the land they need to produce the energy to power them, like, 0:45:13.360 --> 0:45:21.880 they're very energy intensive UM spaces. So until that issue 0:45:22.040 --> 0:45:23.600 is resolved, and I don't know if it will be 0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:27.200 considering you know how the energy requirements is just sort 0:45:27.239 --> 0:45:30.759 of built into the vertical the concentration of energy requirements 0:45:30.840 --> 0:45:34.200 built in sort of into the vertical farming design, UM, 0:45:35.800 --> 0:45:42.000 we have to look to more practical methods. Landownership tends 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:44.360 to be a major hurdle UM when it comes to 0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:51.359 organizing community gardens and maintaining community gardens UM. I mean, 0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:54.920 like folks like Black Futures Farm, Oakland Avenue, urban Farm 0:45:55.000 --> 0:45:58.200 and the Victory Garden Initiative. They've been working to like 0:45:58.760 --> 0:46:01.560 provide fresh producers ito was in need, especially in urban 0:46:01.640 --> 0:46:05.960 food desert. But in a lot of these projects, they 0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:08.000 go in good for some years and then the city 0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:11.440 suddenly spins around It's like we need this land for development, 0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:14.279 so they just snatch it up, and you know, those 0:46:14.400 --> 0:46:19.960 years of efforts just basically put on the dream. Um 0:46:20.840 --> 0:46:24.200 Community land trusts have been put forward as a potential 0:46:24.719 --> 0:46:32.480 um solution to that issue. But like a lot of 0:46:32.560 --> 0:46:34.759 these things, I mean, it's a good band aid, I 0:46:34.800 --> 0:46:40.640 would say, but it's not necessarily marking the end of capitalism. 0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:46.640 Another issue that there is with the whole urban farming 0:46:46.719 --> 0:46:52.200 thing is that um the culture that develops around them 0:46:52.239 --> 0:46:57.160 while they provide education and community and connection for people 0:46:57.200 --> 0:47:01.640 within them, and that is extremely valuable. I think some 0:47:01.880 --> 0:47:06.480 organizers fall into this habit of treating of creating this 0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:14.800 sort of like shared delusion around community gardens, you know, 0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:17.359 claiming to be sort of feeding the people couldn't could 0:47:18.120 --> 0:47:21.680 And what really brought this to my attention was Inhabits 0:47:21.840 --> 0:47:25.160 Territories newsletter. We had an article on it the last 0:47:25.360 --> 0:47:29.600 year I think, on you know, urban community Gardens, and 0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:32.760 it was written by Gibriel I've seen, the co founder 0:47:32.800 --> 0:47:35.719 of at Plant, which I find to be a very 0:47:37.000 --> 0:47:42.279 very creative name, basically asked the question are we really 0:47:42.440 --> 0:47:46.000 feeding ourselves? I mean, these local food initiatives, they do 0:47:46.120 --> 0:47:50.759 produce food that people eat, but it can be a 0:47:50.840 --> 0:47:56.400 bit harmful to be overly optimistic about our food autonomy 0:47:56.440 --> 0:48:00.920 at this stage, especially considering how irons we still are 0:48:01.640 --> 0:48:08.880 on big agriculture. You know, like, yes, we are producing 0:48:09.040 --> 0:48:12.880 you know, organic nutritionally this dense crops and stuff, and 0:48:12.920 --> 0:48:19.400 that's great, that's helping people, but you know, oftentimes it 0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:22.680 usually just means that, you know, the people might be 0:48:22.760 --> 0:48:25.960 getting participants and be getting like a salad or you know, 0:48:26.040 --> 0:48:28.719 a couple. To me too, is it's not necessarily they're 0:48:28.800 --> 0:48:33.200 cutting down their grocery build in a sustainable long term way, 0:48:33.239 --> 0:48:35.680 because I mean, if you've tried God, then you know that, 0:48:36.040 --> 0:48:38.680 like when you work here with a limited space, you know, 0:48:38.760 --> 0:48:40.480 you grow your foot set of To me too, is 0:48:41.440 --> 0:48:43.880 it means it was a cool, but they don't last forever, 0:48:44.239 --> 0:48:45.919 you know, and you have to wait until the next 0:48:45.960 --> 0:48:48.560 harvest to get more. To me too, it or whatever 0:48:48.560 --> 0:48:51.080 the case may be, same for like letters or whatever. 0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:56.120 It's kind of rough, you know, it doesn't It helps 0:48:56.160 --> 0:48:59.800 for like a meal or maybe two depending on like 0:49:00.000 --> 0:49:05.960 living situation, but it doesn't meaningfully cut into our reliance 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:10.920 and groceries and you know, food inputs. Yeah, it definitely 0:49:10.960 --> 0:49:12.400 takes a bit to get to that point, and you 0:49:12.480 --> 0:49:14.200 have to do it with a combination of like food 0:49:14.239 --> 0:49:18.160 preservation and like canning um, and like you know, like 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:20.320 jarring and a whole bunch of other stuff to actually 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:23.200 make that a worthwhile endeavor as opposed to just making 0:49:23.280 --> 0:49:26.160 like great, I spent three months making these tomatoes. Now 0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:32.560 they're ready for one meal and then they're all gone. Yeah. Yeah, 0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:34.640 you do have to really kind of figure out how 0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:38.719 to grow enough to keep enough ready to be harvested 0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:41.680 for jarring and canning for future use um, and make 0:49:41.719 --> 0:49:43.960 sure like you're you know, harvesting them when they are 0:49:44.080 --> 0:49:46.479 ready so that you can you know, you don't lose 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:48.560 stuff and that you have like you know, an ongoing, 0:49:49.760 --> 0:49:52.840 ongoing process of like preserving the fit that you do 0:49:53.000 --> 0:49:56.720 grow for later um as well. So you can definitely 0:49:56.800 --> 0:50:00.719 take a lot a lot more like until effort and 0:50:00.800 --> 0:50:02.920 planning then just you know, planting it and then you know, 0:50:03.200 --> 0:50:07.600 using it and cooking it when it's when it's all ready. Yeah, 0:50:07.760 --> 0:50:09.600 I mean a lot of energy and self is put 0:50:09.640 --> 0:50:13.200 into growing things like greens and roots and fruit and vegetables. 0:50:13.880 --> 0:50:16.399 And they're healthy, you know, they have the vitamins and micronutrients. 0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:21.080 But you know, people still need meat, dairy, eggs, you 0:50:21.160 --> 0:50:26.680 know protein. Yeah, heavy, high calorie dense stuff, you know, 0:50:26.800 --> 0:50:30.560 like potatoes and other starches, like a really holy boloof 0:50:31.000 --> 0:50:33.680 wheats and that kind of thing, and that just isn't 0:50:33.760 --> 0:50:37.239 being growing right now. You know, wheat and rice and 0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:40.840 soy and nuts and corn and sugar. These staples and 0:50:40.960 --> 0:50:45.760 stuff don't tend to be produced by these community gardens 0:50:46.160 --> 0:50:52.799 and by these garden plots. Not many many, not many 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:58.120 legume patches at your local community garden. Yeah yeah, yeah, 0:50:58.200 --> 0:51:01.240 yeah yeah. Like I'm I'm in the process of grin 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:08.200 um some pigeon peas right now, and they are taking 0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:12.920 a very long while. And what I realize is that, um, 0:51:13.360 --> 0:51:14.880 I mean, I just plan to them, so I'm being 0:51:14.880 --> 0:51:21.359 a bit impatient. But what I realized is that when 0:51:21.400 --> 0:51:23.239 they do growth, and I've seen you know, some much 0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:25.600 your pigeon pea trees and stuff. I know how big 0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:28.600 they tend to grow right time harvest rules around. You know, 0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:30.440 you get all those different pots and you you know, 0:51:30.480 --> 0:51:32.680 you put in the work. You put you pick all 0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:35.759 the pods and you m pry open the pods, and 0:51:36.600 --> 0:51:39.759 you know, you put in some more alliteration into the sentence. 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:44.799 And you know you get those peas out. Once those 0:51:44.840 --> 0:51:46.800 peas out to the pod and you put them in 0:51:46.840 --> 0:51:54.560 a pot, they're not potent enough to whould you over 0:51:54.719 --> 0:51:58.560 for more than one meal. You know, like you pick 0:51:58.640 --> 0:52:00.960 like a trees worth of peas in a pod, and 0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:06.440 you know that's like sometimes like half of I'm you 0:52:07.360 --> 0:52:11.520 and really honestly respect to the people who are producing 0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:14.680 all our food right now, because I can't imagine having 0:52:14.840 --> 0:52:20.000 to be shelling peas all the time. It's kind of ridiculous. 0:52:20.200 --> 0:52:22.040 I mean it can be fun, but I can't imagine 0:52:22.080 --> 0:52:24.279 doing it all day. I mean, workers work, right, it's 0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:28.719 gonna yeah, work as hell, we know this. But yeah, 0:52:28.719 --> 0:52:30.759 So I mean community gardens they're good. You know, they 0:52:31.000 --> 0:52:34.320 have you know, education, they build community, they provide outdoor 0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:39.920 activity and stuff. But you know, I think what community gardens, 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:45.120 urban gardens and stuff need to do is find ways 0:52:45.280 --> 0:52:48.399 to um and this this isn't a disparate The work 0:52:48.440 --> 0:52:51.040 has been done, you know, like massive support. I'm doing 0:52:51.080 --> 0:52:56.440 that myself kind of thing. But we've got to, like, 0:52:56.719 --> 0:52:59.320 as the article argues, we can't get caught up in 0:52:59.400 --> 0:53:02.840 the fluffing up of the reality for marketing purposes. You know, 0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:06.040 we need to look for ways that can actually um 0:53:06.200 --> 0:53:11.800 feed ourselves. I means getting into caloric foods that means 0:53:12.239 --> 0:53:16.120 um like like dried beans, potatoes, fruit, trees, I kind 0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:20.560 of think grains, nuts, all that jazz. And also connecting 0:53:20.719 --> 0:53:27.160 with farms outside of the city, you know, local farms 0:53:27.239 --> 0:53:33.520 outside of the immediate urban landscape. Seeing what cooperatives can 0:53:33.600 --> 0:53:41.000 be developed that can work aid each other mutually to 0:53:41.520 --> 0:53:49.400 build more potent capacity for food. What's on me? So, 0:53:49.480 --> 0:53:52.480 I mean, get in touch with the soil, you know, 0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:58.759 get this sign your face, but also think about what 0:53:59.040 --> 0:54:02.200 more we can to sort of take this to the 0:54:02.320 --> 0:54:10.279 next level. And ya, that is um that is what 0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:19.439 I believe could in fact happen here. This has happened here. Good. Yeah, 0:54:19.480 --> 0:54:22.000 it's nice to have a positive one of these. Yeah, 0:54:22.239 --> 0:54:26.040 we should do that more often. If if only we 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:31.000 had the power, well come back tomorrow when we'll be 0:54:31.120 --> 0:54:34.200 talking about another bad thing and then abandoning you to 0:54:34.239 --> 0:54:42.200 deal with your thoughts about it. Wow, we we try, 0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:44.640 we try, we do try. This is us trying well, 0:54:44.680 --> 0:54:50.440 this is us having st Andrew try. You're welcome, Thank you, 0:54:50.560 --> 0:54:53.680 thank you very much. This is a topic I wanted 0:54:53.719 --> 0:54:56.160 to discuss for a long time. In terms of use. 0:54:56.320 --> 0:54:58.480 We get a lot of people talking about like, yeah, 0:54:59.120 --> 0:55:03.840 how you know and whatever, like post collapse fantasy that 0:55:03.960 --> 0:55:07.840 you can imagine where we're able to kind of reconfigure society. 0:55:07.920 --> 0:55:10.759 How would you plan urban living? And you're like, well, yeah, 0:55:10.840 --> 0:55:12.960 there's there's a lot of actually really cool ideas for 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:17.200 like keeping people close together can be a very ecological 0:55:17.280 --> 0:55:20.160 idea if you do it certain ways. It's just a 0:55:20.239 --> 0:55:21.959 lot of the ways you've defaulted to over the past. 0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:27.960 Like really three years has made it not that with 0:55:28.120 --> 0:55:31.279 the invention of the car really really screwing us over. Um. 0:55:31.960 --> 0:55:34.719 So yeah, thank you so much for talking about urban 0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:38.080 living and super super blocks and all this kind of stuff. 0:55:38.840 --> 0:55:43.360 Where can where can people find more of your work 0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:49.000 and writing on the interwebs. You can find me on 0:55:49.280 --> 0:55:53.160 YouTube at st Andreism, and you can find you on Twitter, 0:55:54.360 --> 0:55:57.520 which hopefully when you hear this, I am still not 0:55:57.760 --> 0:56:03.640 on at under school seeing fantastic. Um, yeah you uh 0:56:03.920 --> 0:56:06.800 st Andrew just put together a really great episode about 0:56:07.440 --> 0:56:13.319 anti work stuff and the way that tobaccles has has 0:56:13.400 --> 0:56:16.400 happened and what we can learn from it and that 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:19.560 kind of thing. Um and while you should still actually 0:56:19.600 --> 0:56:23.200 care about anti work um and yeah, so would definitely 0:56:23.280 --> 0:56:27.720 recommend the anti work video for recent recent recent stuff. 0:56:28.880 --> 0:56:32.160 Let's see. Um, if you want to feed your brain 0:56:32.280 --> 0:56:36.600 into the addiction driven social media algorithm, you can follow 0:56:36.719 --> 0:56:38.960 us on Twitter and Instagram. It happened here pod and 0:56:39.000 --> 0:56:43.759 cools on media and uh yeah, let's uh go think 0:56:43.800 --> 0:56:47.280 about go think about microspaces and community gardens. That seems 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:49.879 like a good a good way to dedicate your thought 0:56:50.040 --> 0:56:54.120 time and roll down the street smoking indow sipping that 0:56:54.239 --> 0:56:57.040 gin and juice while you still can on a bike. 0:56:59.480 --> 0:57:02.960 I am pluly sally used doing my moral judgments upon 0:57:03.040 --> 0:57:10.520 you before before the fascist anarchists take away your fees. Yeah. Look, 0:57:10.680 --> 0:57:14.320 if if if we can democratize military grade weaponry the 0:57:14.320 --> 0:57:17.720 way the Ukrainians have, we can we can we can 0:57:17.880 --> 0:57:21.000 form neighborhoods that cannot be forced to live in the 0:57:21.120 --> 0:57:30.160 traffic the auto industrial complex really reduced fripless air travel. 0:57:30.920 --> 0:57:35.040 What otherwise will end up in a mad max wield 0:57:35.080 --> 0:57:42.960 and I mean wants that right, well aspects of it. Yeah, alright, 0:57:43.400 --> 0:57:58.000 see everybody, Hey there, it's lee In Rhymes and I 0:57:58.200 --> 0:58:00.560 am so excited to share the third season of my 0:58:00.680 --> 0:58:04.120 Holy Human podcast with you. This season, we're creating a 0:58:04.160 --> 0:58:08.480 deeper connection to ourselves and each other with greater understanding, 0:58:08.600 --> 0:58:11.960 intention and joy. Join me as I sit down with 0:58:12.080 --> 0:58:15.000 some of the most inspiring and enlightening experts in the 0:58:15.080 --> 0:58:18.080 fields of self awareness and healing. As we make sense 0:58:18.120 --> 0:58:22.560 of this crazy, wild and sacred existence we all share. Together, 0:58:22.720 --> 0:58:25.240 we'll sort through all of life's bits and pieces to 0:58:25.360 --> 0:58:28.760 explore our whole selves. Season three of Holy Human with 0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:32.920 Leanne Rhymes launches March one. Listen and follow on the 0:58:33.000 --> 0:58:36.080 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get 0:58:36.120 --> 0:58:42.240 your podcasts. Sir, we got your test results back and 0:58:42.440 --> 0:58:44.360 give it to me straight Talk. You have to listen 0:58:44.400 --> 0:58:48.840 to the podcast Ridiculous News. Ridiculous News. The podcast Ridiculous News. 0:58:48.920 --> 0:58:51.960 It's a podcast hosted by Bill Whorley and Mark Kendall. 0:58:52.200 --> 0:58:55.200 Ridiculous News. Thre's two comedians based out of Atlanta, Georgia. 0:58:55.520 --> 0:58:57.600 So you've heard of them, you know, I always knew 0:58:57.640 --> 0:58:59.560 you were my favorite patients. We have the best doctor 0:58:59.600 --> 0:59:02.800 I've ever had. And yeah, they're hilarious. I love their videos. 0:59:02.840 --> 0:59:05.120 Bill is actually my cousin. They talk about the news, 0:59:05.200 --> 0:59:06.920 but not like in a depressing way, you know what 0:59:06.960 --> 0:59:09.600 I mean. Like they did an episode about April fool. 0:59:09.640 --> 0:59:11.560 It's great. You get it, so you need to listen 0:59:11.680 --> 0:59:14.440 to it. Where do I find it? You get it 0:59:14.520 --> 0:59:17.400 wherever you find podcasts, like in a cereal box. Well no, 0:59:17.520 --> 0:59:19.200 I mean that's not where you find a podcast, so 0:59:19.600 --> 0:59:22.840 like in the middle of a tree. No, do you 0:59:22.960 --> 0:59:25.360 know what a podcast is? Yeah, it's like like a 0:59:25.400 --> 0:59:28.240 shoebox size. No, no, got it. All is something that 0:59:28.280 --> 0:59:32.320 you listen to listen to ridiculous news on the I 0:59:32.440 --> 0:59:36.600 Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:48.480 The produce I absolutely not from Cavalry Audio, the studio 0:59:48.640 --> 0:59:51.280 that brought you The Devil Within and The Shadow Goes 0:59:51.840 --> 0:59:56.360 comes a new true crime podcast, The Pink Moon Murders. 0:59:56.800 --> 0:59:59.400 The local sheriff believes there may be more than one 0:59:59.480 --> 1:00:01.960 killery to It's been four days since those bodies were 1:00:02.000 --> 1:00:04.480 found and there's no arrest as it this morning. They 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:06.720 were afraid it's face it out in that area, what 1:00:06.840 --> 1:00:09.200 if they come back or whatever. It scared me to death, 1:00:09.240 --> 1:00:12.320 Like it scared me, I was very very intimidating to 1:00:12.440 --> 1:00:14.800 live here. Crazy to think you go to sleep one night, 1:00:15.080 --> 1:00:17.560 maybe snuggling with your loved one and never wake up, 1:00:17.920 --> 1:00:19.800 or maybe you wake up in a struggle for your life, 1:00:20.040 --> 1:00:23.320 which you lose. Joint host David Radoman as he explores 1:00:23.400 --> 1:00:27.000 one fateful night when evil descended upon small town, Ohio 1:00:27.440 --> 1:00:30.120 killed eight members of an Ohio family in a pre 1:00:30.320 --> 1:00:33.680 planned execution. The family was targeted, most of them targeted 1:00:33.720 --> 1:00:37.360 while they were sleeping. Follow the Pink Moon murders on 1:00:37.440 --> 1:00:41.120 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 1:00:41.240 --> 1:00:59.840 get your podcasts podcast, thank you. That is it is. 1:01:00.120 --> 1:01:07.080 It's true. It's true. Actually it could happen here. Listening 1:01:07.120 --> 1:01:14.520 to the podcast is more or less the truth we have. 1:01:14.800 --> 1:01:17.280 We have Dreg Robert out of bed at before the 1:01:17.480 --> 1:01:20.200 crack of dawg at a legend forty two am. Um, 1:01:21.000 --> 1:01:24.040 and we're gonna talk about actually something very fun. I'm 1:01:24.040 --> 1:01:25.560 I've been I've been wanting to talk about this for 1:01:25.680 --> 1:01:27.680 a long time because this is one of actually one 1:01:27.680 --> 1:01:32.479 of my favorite things. Um yeah, yeah, So I'm gonna 1:01:32.520 --> 1:01:34.400 I'm gonna tell a bit of a bit of a 1:01:34.480 --> 1:01:37.640 little story regarding one of my act all time favorite 1:01:37.640 --> 1:01:42.440 events and topics. So back in like there was this 1:01:42.920 --> 1:01:47.160 a cheesy little online university science show made by the 1:01:47.280 --> 1:01:51.760 Rochester Institute of Technology called Can You Imagine UM. The 1:01:52.080 --> 1:01:54.040 the idea was to highlight some of the cool and 1:01:54.120 --> 1:01:57.120 weird things at the university UM in part to promote 1:01:57.200 --> 1:01:59.920 the Imagine r i T Festival, which was like the 1:02:00.040 --> 1:02:03.760 schools annual like innovation and creativity festivals think that they 1:02:03.800 --> 1:02:07.240 put on. So yeah, today I want to talk specifically 1:02:07.360 --> 1:02:11.000 about episode three of the web series because the contents 1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:14.960 of which overlap with some of my like artistic interests 1:02:15.200 --> 1:02:17.800 UM and like just my love of illusions and paradox 1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:19.800 and I will kind of tie into some topics we 1:02:19.880 --> 1:02:22.920 other we always discussed on the show. So yeah, Episode 1:02:22.960 --> 1:02:26.600 three one of probably probably the most interesting episode UM. 1:02:27.040 --> 1:02:30.640 Episode three opens with the hosts Kevin and Steph as 1:02:30.760 --> 1:02:34.280 they like stand awkwardly in a gloriously dated you like 1:02:34.600 --> 1:02:37.800 university film set like it's it's it's only twenties, it's 1:02:37.800 --> 1:02:40.200 only twenty thirteen. But it was like obviously like made 1:02:40.400 --> 1:02:42.680 in the nineties, like like like like the set's like 1:02:42.760 --> 1:02:46.360 it's all it's it's all very dated. What specifically are 1:02:46.440 --> 1:02:50.240 you referred? Oh, like they're they're like they're just like weird, 1:02:50.360 --> 1:02:54.720 like like weird, like like dated science stuff on the walls. 1:02:55.040 --> 1:02:57.600 All the hosts of wearing like dorky orange T shirts 1:02:58.120 --> 1:03:03.919 like like over to over top the regular clothes. They yeah, yeah, 1:03:04.080 --> 1:03:05.440 it's it's it's all. It's all that kind of it's 1:03:05.480 --> 1:03:08.000 all that kind of stuff. So like dorkey orange T 1:03:08.120 --> 1:03:10.480 shirts with the letters r I T for the Roger 1:03:10.520 --> 1:03:13.960 CRUs Sister Institute of Technology. Um. Of course, because everything 1:03:14.080 --> 1:03:17.360 in this online video series is perfect, Kevin is wearing 1:03:17.560 --> 1:03:19.400 his shirt over top of like a button down. It's 1:03:19.440 --> 1:03:22.880 it's it's it's great. Um. The first fifty seconds of 1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:25.160 the video are taken up with like plugging the upcoming 1:03:25.560 --> 1:03:29.160 of r a t Imagine Festival with a with a 1:03:29.240 --> 1:03:33.920 co host Steph beautifully stumbling over her lines when she 1:03:34.040 --> 1:03:36.840 says the events catchphrase, it's where the left brain and 1:03:36.880 --> 1:03:40.000 the right brain collide. And it's great, it's it's it's 1:03:40.120 --> 1:03:42.800 it's it's it's perfect. So after all the plugs and 1:03:43.000 --> 1:03:46.000 the vamping, the hosts get down to the fun engineering 1:03:46.160 --> 1:03:48.560 feat and they'll be showing us today, which is a 1:03:48.760 --> 1:03:52.040 neat little architectural experiment a part of the r I 1:03:52.160 --> 1:03:55.720 T campus called the a Sharing and Stairwell UM, of course, 1:03:55.880 --> 1:03:59.240 named after the impossible staircases depicted in Dutch artist m 1:03:59.320 --> 1:04:03.560 c eshers artwork. So the video cuts two from the 1:04:03.680 --> 1:04:07.120 little like sound stage they're filming in to this boring, white, 1:04:07.160 --> 1:04:11.720 seemingly typical stairwell. Our host Kevin ascending a flight of 1:04:11.800 --> 1:04:15.280 the gray concrete stairs UM explains that what located in 1:04:15.320 --> 1:04:18.360 Building seven of the campus. The stairwell was designed by 1:04:18.440 --> 1:04:22.480 Filipino architect Raphael Nelson Abegando and was one of the 1:04:22.560 --> 1:04:24.960 first structures put up when Our I T moved their 1:04:25.000 --> 1:04:29.600 campus from downtown Rochester to the more suburban Henrietta UM. 1:04:29.640 --> 1:04:31.680 When when he's taking when he's reaching the top of 1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:34.280 the stairs, he turns the quarter and then suddenly seems 1:04:34.320 --> 1:04:36.760 to appear at the bottom of the lower flight of stairs, 1:04:37.120 --> 1:04:38.840 leading up to the landing that he just left from, 1:04:39.040 --> 1:04:41.680 all while continuing to talk about the architect behind this 1:04:41.800 --> 1:04:45.240 like kind of weird impossible feat um. So, as Kevin 1:04:45.280 --> 1:04:47.560 walks back up to camera, he says that the stairwell 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:50.640 was built in the eight and it's been wowing ur 1:04:50.680 --> 1:04:54.880 I too students ever since. Um it's it is very cool. 1:04:54.960 --> 1:04:58.000 It's like it's like you're like, okay, you get you 1:04:58.080 --> 1:05:00.360 get the little like like you get a little like 1:05:00.440 --> 1:05:03.480 architectural trick that they're doing. Um, but it's it is. 1:05:03.560 --> 1:05:06.800 It is still pretty fun to see. Before episode three 1:05:06.880 --> 1:05:09.000 of Can You Imagine aired you could, you can already 1:05:09.000 --> 1:05:14.280 find a few articles on the school's UH website about 1:05:14.320 --> 1:05:18.960 the issuaring stairwell, along with some like forum posts debating 1:05:19.000 --> 1:05:21.440 how the architecture in the stairwell works to like achieve 1:05:21.520 --> 1:05:25.160 the effect. UM Also floating around on YouTube was like 1:05:25.400 --> 1:05:27.640 a random segment of what looked like a like a 1:05:27.800 --> 1:05:31.960 PBS style late nineties documentary about the physics and architecture 1:05:32.280 --> 1:05:35.480 of the school and specifically the stairwell that interviewed some 1:05:35.600 --> 1:05:38.640 like professors um and some like architects and like a 1:05:39.400 --> 1:05:42.160 symphysicist kind of discussing what like how to like bring 1:05:42.240 --> 1:05:45.080 paradox into the physical world. Yeah, but but but but 1:05:45.200 --> 1:05:47.600 around the time that can you imagine episode aired, the 1:05:47.680 --> 1:05:51.040 now like infamous r RT stairwell was mostly unknown, so 1:05:51.280 --> 1:05:54.520 it was like, even despite it being very interesting, no 1:05:54.640 --> 1:05:56.840 one really knew about it until this episode of this 1:05:56.880 --> 1:06:01.520 little web series aired. Um. The little episode dedicates around 1:06:01.560 --> 1:06:05.640 half its time to interviewing students, uh and righteously random 1:06:05.680 --> 1:06:08.160 people at the university about if they even know about 1:06:08.200 --> 1:06:11.320 the stareill's existence, um, and if they do, what like 1:06:11.520 --> 1:06:14.680 experiences they have with like me messing around with like 1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:17.680 the looping architecture, because yeah, you can you know, you 1:06:17.720 --> 1:06:19.600 can play a lot of games with this type of 1:06:19.800 --> 1:06:22.120 with this type of design. Uh. So the rest of 1:06:22.120 --> 1:06:25.480 the short video like tries to demonstrate the disorienting ascent 1:06:25.680 --> 1:06:29.760 down and descent back up via the camera in various ways, 1:06:29.840 --> 1:06:32.240 like you know, like human chains or holding hands around 1:06:32.320 --> 1:06:36.440 the weird like vious loop types staircase, then like passing 1:06:36.520 --> 1:06:39.200 objects back and forth in a circle while inside and 1:06:39.280 --> 1:06:43.520 around the enclosed stairwell. Um, there's one where Kevin walks 1:06:43.560 --> 1:06:45.680 around with a cup to show that the stairs aren't 1:06:45.720 --> 1:06:48.640 like clearly like heavily slanted, like the water stays pretty 1:06:48.640 --> 1:06:50.320 pretty level as he walks all the way through, and 1:06:50.560 --> 1:06:53.680 like we follow with him the entire time. UM. So yeah, 1:06:53.720 --> 1:06:56.880 like the overall like nerdy and low fi style of 1:06:56.960 --> 1:06:59.960 the university video match, like the insane feet of our 1:07:00.040 --> 1:07:02.840 chitectural illusion is a really fun mixed like it's like 1:07:02.920 --> 1:07:05.360 it's like it's it's it is very like surreal, but 1:07:05.480 --> 1:07:07.720 not totally on purpose, because it's just all of these 1:07:07.840 --> 1:07:13.000 like regular college students showing this like really cool architecture 1:07:13.080 --> 1:07:15.840 by this really good architect and you're like, oh, yeah, 1:07:15.880 --> 1:07:19.560 they're just so chill about it. Uh, it is, it is. 1:07:19.760 --> 1:07:23.960 It is pretty fun. It's pretty fun. UM. After the 1:07:24.040 --> 1:07:27.840 third episode of the Imagine r i T video was posted, 1:07:28.680 --> 1:07:32.560 finally the mind boggling looping staircase of building seven in 1:07:33.040 --> 1:07:35.760 of our T started to gain a lot of confused 1:07:35.800 --> 1:07:40.080 appreciation UM, and the dorky University science show went vital. 1:07:40.400 --> 1:07:43.280 People started traveling from out of state even other countries 1:07:43.560 --> 1:07:48.240 to see the Asherian stairwell themselves of and film videos 1:07:48.280 --> 1:07:50.640 on social media as as they walk through it. This 1:07:50.840 --> 1:07:53.040 this one video of like people traveling to a different 1:07:53.080 --> 1:07:55.640 country and they're like harassing like the school staff to 1:07:55.680 --> 1:07:57.360 try to like tell them where it is, and they're like, 1:07:57.440 --> 1:07:59.920 oh my god, you're still doing this because it was 1:08:00.040 --> 1:08:01.800 because like this film was, this video is like like 1:08:02.040 --> 1:08:04.600 years old, but it's it still happens. People still travel 1:08:04.680 --> 1:08:08.200 there to to specifically see it. Um. There is like 1:08:08.320 --> 1:08:12.040 tense online discussion and debate on how the Filipino architect 1:08:12.280 --> 1:08:14.960 Raphael Avugando was able to achieve the effect and what 1:08:15.080 --> 1:08:17.880 kind of other bizarre architectural experiments he may have worked on, 1:08:18.640 --> 1:08:20.720 because you can find his Facebook page and you can 1:08:20.720 --> 1:08:23.040 find some stuff about him, but he has not really 1:08:23.080 --> 1:08:25.559 because like this this steroile was built in the late sixties, 1:08:25.800 --> 1:08:28.080 but you haven't. So he even though he has an 1:08:28.120 --> 1:08:30.120 online presence, he's like he's like he's not like active, 1:08:30.520 --> 1:08:34.599 so it's unclear like what else he's actually been doing. UM, 1:08:35.280 --> 1:08:37.000 but I would I would, I would love to learn 1:08:37.080 --> 1:08:39.639 more about this architect and what else he's done, because 1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:42.200 this it is it is really rare to have these 1:08:42.400 --> 1:08:47.280 very small, condensed but like high effort type like type 1:08:47.320 --> 1:08:51.120 builds and like the the existence of the whole thing. 1:08:51.240 --> 1:08:55.320 Posted some really interesting questions around how extremely clever paradoxical 1:08:55.400 --> 1:08:58.160 design can push the boundary of how we make assumptions 1:08:58.200 --> 1:09:01.000 about spatial physics UM and how we visually and physically 1:09:01.040 --> 1:09:04.360 demonstrate things that we usually can only depict in two dimensions, right, 1:09:04.400 --> 1:09:06.400 Like you can you can easily depict the the issuing 1:09:06.439 --> 1:09:08.800 in stairwell in two dimensions, but when you're scaling that 1:09:08.920 --> 1:09:12.080 up to three dimensions, it's obviously more work like like that. 1:09:12.200 --> 1:09:15.080 That is that is part of the paradox UM. Plus, 1:09:15.160 --> 1:09:17.400 you know, it also demonstrates the importance of art and 1:09:17.479 --> 1:09:21.040 how ideas once thought impossible or merely optical illusions can 1:09:21.080 --> 1:09:23.479 actually with enough data, can an effort break into our 1:09:23.560 --> 1:09:26.479 real reality. Uh. If a brilliant architect can manage to 1:09:26.520 --> 1:09:29.880 build this physically and like logically impossible structure, what other 1:09:29.960 --> 1:09:32.479 types of things can we actually view as possible? Um? 1:09:32.960 --> 1:09:35.160 The video now has like over a million views on 1:09:35.280 --> 1:09:38.400 its original upload UM, and videos about the R I 1:09:38.479 --> 1:09:40.840 T stairwell have ranked up as many as like twenty 1:09:40.880 --> 1:09:45.760 five million views. Yeah it's pretty cool. Yeah. You know 1:09:45.880 --> 1:09:50.280 what else demonstrates the looping nature of time. Having to 1:09:50.400 --> 1:09:55.400 listen to all these ads that we do, Ye, we 1:09:55.600 --> 1:09:58.479 we are we are back. I've I've rounded the corner 1:09:58.600 --> 1:10:01.759 and we are back where we came from. Um. Because 1:10:02.000 --> 1:10:08.600 of the fun paradox of architecture. UM, the one The 1:10:08.960 --> 1:10:12.080 one other thing I should mention before we continue on 1:10:12.120 --> 1:10:15.200 this episode is that the entire thing is fake. It's false. 1:10:15.560 --> 1:10:19.400 No way, not this time. We created it. Not this time, No, 1:10:19.960 --> 1:10:23.680 not this time. It's totally made. Because of course it's 1:10:24.120 --> 1:10:26.760 it's a staircase of breaks the basic rules of movement 1:10:26.840 --> 1:10:30.280 in physics. Kevin walks up the stairs and teleports to 1:10:30.360 --> 1:10:33.280 the lower stairwell. Belief them this this, that's not that's 1:10:33.400 --> 1:10:36.200 that's not an architectural allusion. It's called good video and 1:10:36.280 --> 1:10:39.479 the thing and a don't be after effects like no, 1:10:40.080 --> 1:10:43.879 you're you're really gonna believe a video on the internet 1:10:44.200 --> 1:10:47.519 and some well placed, falsified Internet posts over the very 1:10:47.600 --> 1:10:52.000 basic rules that governed our universe. But like, oh boy, 1:10:52.120 --> 1:10:55.200 did it fool millions of people? Um, and if I 1:10:55.280 --> 1:10:57.519 played my cards right, I hope most of our listeners 1:10:57.640 --> 1:11:02.080 until the last few seconds. Um, yeah it is. Uh 1:11:02.320 --> 1:11:05.720 so the whole the whole thing was a was a 1:11:06.040 --> 1:11:10.479 student like film and art project around around building a 1:11:10.600 --> 1:11:14.920 modern myth. Um the it's because it's sure, it's sure. 1:11:15.040 --> 1:11:19.720 Is interesting how good storytelling can overrule obvious logical processes. 1:11:20.800 --> 1:11:23.120 The tale of the Assarian Stairwell is one of my 1:11:23.200 --> 1:11:26.439 favorite case studies and how disinprobation spreads and it's believed 1:11:26.760 --> 1:11:29.400 while all in defiance of the basic rules of reality, 1:11:29.439 --> 1:11:31.400 because it's not a matter of what facts are true, 1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:34.280 it's about what facts are compelling. And the idea of 1:11:34.360 --> 1:11:38.679 a logically impossible staircase being built by a brilliant Filipino 1:11:38.800 --> 1:11:42.880 architect is more interesting than it being someone's weird and 1:11:42.960 --> 1:11:48.599 disinformation art project. Um. So yeah, like I want to say, 1:11:48.640 --> 1:11:51.080 like how what what were you guys thinking as I 1:11:51.200 --> 1:11:54.559 was explaining the Assarian stairwell, Like where did you see 1:11:54.560 --> 1:11:56.640 this going? Okay? So I had in the back of 1:11:56.720 --> 1:11:59.479 my head, okay, we we should we should mention this. 1:12:00.080 --> 1:12:04.600 Garrison has been hyping up this episode for like I 1:12:04.640 --> 1:12:10.840 don't even a pretty smif amount of times nothing, and 1:12:10.920 --> 1:12:14.760 there's a staircase and I'm like what what? And it 1:12:14.840 --> 1:12:17.880 was like my my brain, my brain started going because 1:12:17.880 --> 1:12:22.960 he said and I was like, my like my counterham 1:12:23.000 --> 1:12:26.759 surgency brain flicked on and I was like wait a second, 1:12:26.840 --> 1:12:30.880 hold time is this like some kind of like weird 1:12:31.120 --> 1:12:34.240 Like we've redesigned the college campuses so they stopped people 1:12:34.280 --> 1:12:37.760 stopped taking the Dean hostage a thing that used to 1:12:37.840 --> 1:12:40.560 happen constantly and with all my favorite party about this 1:12:40.680 --> 1:12:43.360 would happen constantly, and you'd get New York Times articles 1:12:43.400 --> 1:12:49.840 calling it non violent. Yeah, so yeah it was that 1:12:49.960 --> 1:12:52.880 was that was. Yeah. I spent more mental energy that 1:12:52.920 --> 1:12:54.519 I probably should have tried to figure out how it 1:12:54.520 --> 1:12:56.559 would work. And I was like, I don't know, maybe 1:12:56.600 --> 1:12:58.720 they just made it. Like if they just made it 1:13:00.000 --> 1:13:02.880 Acus Razor, it's obviously yeah. I mean I was. I 1:13:03.000 --> 1:13:04.960 was like I was in the like, okay, so they 1:13:05.080 --> 1:13:08.200 built the staircase, they built another the viewers cannot see 1:13:08.280 --> 1:13:11.639 my fingers, and it was like, it's a real staircase. 1:13:11.680 --> 1:13:13.800 It doesn't tell it. It was like it was like, 1:13:14.120 --> 1:13:16.680 but you can't find videos of people traveling to the 1:13:16.720 --> 1:13:19.160 school to see if it's real. And they try it 1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:21.760 and they're so disappointed. They're like, oh, yeah, it's no, 1:13:22.000 --> 1:13:25.280 it's just stairs. It doesn't it doesn't. Yeah, it's disappointed 1:13:25.280 --> 1:13:26.800 in a lot of ways because it's not even like 1:13:26.880 --> 1:13:29.040 a thing where like there's like another back staircase that 1:13:29.080 --> 1:13:31.639 you walk down. Then again it's just it's just nothing. 1:13:31.880 --> 1:13:34.400 It's just stairs. I was hoping there was like so 1:13:34.520 --> 1:13:38.120 actually clever thing is no it's just it's not really, 1:13:38.920 --> 1:13:45.080 It's just it was that meme where all the math 1:13:45.360 --> 1:13:49.720 doesn't add up in the person what is happening? I 1:13:49.880 --> 1:13:52.200 was like, all right, Garrison, you got us here, You 1:13:52.320 --> 1:13:56.240 made Robert get up before noon? What is happening? Well, 1:13:56.840 --> 1:13:59.400 the reason, the real reason I got up before I 1:13:59.640 --> 1:14:02.280 got Bard up before noon is because I actually, um 1:14:02.840 --> 1:14:07.120 have scheduled an interview with the creator of the Assarian Stairwell, 1:14:07.160 --> 1:14:11.400 the actual one be like the online art project and 1:14:12.240 --> 1:14:15.559 building a Modern Myth idea, um, which we are now 1:14:15.680 --> 1:14:19.680 going to segue into. So yeah, what what follows is 1:14:20.439 --> 1:14:26.679 us talking with the creator of the Assarian Stairwell project. Hello, 1:14:27.520 --> 1:14:29.920 we are we are back from our probably very very 1:14:30.000 --> 1:14:34.320 brief break. UM. And with me along with Robert and 1:14:34.920 --> 1:14:39.439 Chris and Sophie is uh Michael, the creator of the 1:14:40.000 --> 1:14:47.280 Assharian Stairwell project and the Building the Modern Myths project. Hello, greetings, 1:14:49.200 --> 1:14:51.559 Thank you so much for joining us to talk about 1:14:52.920 --> 1:14:55.880 one of my one of my favorite things actually is 1:14:56.120 --> 1:14:59.800 which is here a little to us to project? Um. Yeah, 1:15:00.000 --> 1:15:02.000 I've been a fan of this for a long time 1:15:02.080 --> 1:15:05.280 and found it to be really compelling and interesting. UM 1:15:05.920 --> 1:15:08.920 and I so I just walked through Robert and Chris 1:15:09.040 --> 1:15:12.840 and Sophie what what it what it was? But from 1:15:12.920 --> 1:15:16.519 the perspective of it being true, for like for the 1:15:16.560 --> 1:15:19.040 good fifteen minutes I was I was episode was going 1:15:19.360 --> 1:15:21.880 was going through talking about it as if it were 1:15:22.160 --> 1:15:25.200 completely real, but curious to hear how you did that 1:15:27.640 --> 1:15:31.280 it was. It was slightly baffling because again we were 1:15:31.320 --> 1:15:33.560 told nothing, and then what we got is Garrison is 1:15:33.600 --> 1:15:36.080 talking about a YouTube video about an architecture thing and 1:15:36.120 --> 1:15:43.200 I was like, what here? Yeah, and then and then 1:15:43.360 --> 1:15:46.200 then talking about how oh yeah, and I guess one 1:15:46.240 --> 1:15:48.760 more thing is that it's actually fake. Um. And it's 1:15:48.840 --> 1:15:51.160 part of this whole, this whole thing. So yeah, I 1:15:51.240 --> 1:15:54.479 would I would love to talk to you about both 1:15:54.600 --> 1:15:57.360 like how how you like logistically like made the project, 1:15:57.400 --> 1:16:01.240 but also like the underlying you during thoughts that like 1:16:02.240 --> 1:16:03.640 inspired you to do it in the first place, and 1:16:03.680 --> 1:16:07.000 then like retrospected now almost like ten years later, like 1:16:07.080 --> 1:16:08.960 how do you view the project as like happening you know, 1:16:09.320 --> 1:16:14.200 right before like the peak of online disinformation? Um? Right. 1:16:14.280 --> 1:16:17.000 So but first of all, I I just think we 1:16:17.000 --> 1:16:19.200 should probably start started the beginning, like what what was 1:16:19.240 --> 1:16:22.880 your inspirations for this type of like online like there 1:16:22.920 --> 1:16:25.120 because it seems it seems it seems built to go 1:16:25.320 --> 1:16:29.800 viral in a lot of ways. Yes, exactly. So this 1:16:29.960 --> 1:16:33.599 was around twenty eleven, I guess was when I first 1:16:33.680 --> 1:16:37.320 got the idea. It was for my master's thesis, my 1:16:37.560 --> 1:16:41.120 m f A for film at Rochester r I t 1:16:41.600 --> 1:16:47.120 and UM. The idea actually began from this like deep 1:16:47.200 --> 1:16:53.840 anxiety about how to discern fact from fiction. Um. At 1:16:53.880 --> 1:16:57.360 the time, like I came into film school like really 1:16:57.479 --> 1:17:02.439 into like realism in films like Romanian New Wave mckel 1:17:02.479 --> 1:17:05.680 hanaka dar Dan Brothers, Like these are filmmakers who are 1:17:05.720 --> 1:17:08.479 like they're sort of like the modern day version of 1:17:08.600 --> 1:17:12.479 Italian nero neo realism, and they're trying to like depict 1:17:12.640 --> 1:17:15.560 like these um reality as it is. I wanted to 1:17:15.880 --> 1:17:18.800 like learn how to make those types of films um. 1:17:19.640 --> 1:17:21.920 So over like with each year, that's what I tried 1:17:22.000 --> 1:17:25.320 to get better at. And the more I tried to 1:17:25.680 --> 1:17:29.880 do that, um well, like a number of things were 1:17:29.920 --> 1:17:33.280 happening around that time. Right in class, they showed us 1:17:33.439 --> 1:17:37.320 these mockumentaries called No Lies, which was made in nineteen 1:17:37.400 --> 1:17:40.640 seventy three by this guy called Mitchell Black actually won 1:17:40.760 --> 1:17:44.600 a student Oscar at the time, and uh Delusions in 1:17:44.680 --> 1:17:48.240 Modern Primitivism two thousand one by this guy named Daniel 1:17:48.320 --> 1:17:53.160 Laughlin UM and these like I was like floored because 1:17:53.240 --> 1:17:57.920 I thought they were real, like real documentaries and um 1:17:59.280 --> 1:18:03.320 and it bothered me, like our teachers still this afterwards 1:18:03.360 --> 1:18:05.880 that these were actually scripted works of fiction with like 1:18:06.120 --> 1:18:09.599 really really good actors, and it like I went into 1:18:09.720 --> 1:18:13.600 kind of like existential crisis mode afterwards, like how do 1:18:13.720 --> 1:18:16.560 I even discern what's true from what's not if I 1:18:16.640 --> 1:18:20.280 got fooled by these things, especially like that's like my concentration, 1:18:20.640 --> 1:18:22.880 that's what I've been studying for years, and even I 1:18:23.120 --> 1:18:26.200 was not even able to tell that they were fake, Right, 1:18:26.920 --> 1:18:29.640 There was that going on, And then there was like 1:18:30.040 --> 1:18:32.599 smartphones were becoming a thing, like I just looked it up. 1:18:33.080 --> 1:18:38.240 Smartphones didn't start out out selling flip phones still, so 1:18:38.360 --> 1:18:41.000 around this time, like it was becoming a thing where 1:18:41.120 --> 1:18:43.600 everyone would have the Internet in their pockets. So I 1:18:43.640 --> 1:18:46.840 guess there was that anxiety going on trying to think about, 1:18:47.240 --> 1:18:52.320 um um, how we're starting to function and how we're 1:18:53.040 --> 1:18:56.479 how I remember when I proposed my thesis to the 1:18:56.560 --> 1:19:00.200 thesis committee, I I UM one of the things things 1:19:00.280 --> 1:19:05.200 that I was telling them was, Um, I have this 1:19:05.360 --> 1:19:08.680 worry about how reliant we are on the internet to 1:19:08.840 --> 1:19:11.880 determine what's true and what's not. And this is like 1:19:12.320 --> 1:19:16.520 like my professors found my concerns like really abstract and theoretical, 1:19:16.680 --> 1:19:20.519 Like why do you even care? Because this right, like 1:19:20.640 --> 1:19:22.880 why didn't you about fact and ficture? It wasn't like 1:19:23.280 --> 1:19:26.600 fake news. That wasn't even a term. It wasn't It 1:19:26.600 --> 1:19:29.040 didn't become part of the every day lexicon, like you said, 1:19:29.120 --> 1:19:32.840 until twenty sixteen when Trump started throwing that term around 1:19:33.439 --> 1:19:37.000 and suddenly we hear about it every day. Um, So 1:19:37.160 --> 1:19:39.760 there was that going on. Trayvon Martin was a thing, 1:19:39.960 --> 1:19:43.280 and for the first time, like nationally, you could see 1:19:43.479 --> 1:19:48.960 like disinformation like on you know, just like exaggerated versions 1:19:49.040 --> 1:19:54.080 of different different accounts from like polarizing sides. So all 1:19:54.160 --> 1:19:58.040 that was going on, and so I I wanted to 1:19:59.120 --> 1:20:03.840 it was it was this film project was about, um 1:20:04.280 --> 1:20:07.800 trying to take something that was Are you familiar with 1:20:08.080 --> 1:20:10.960 with the difference between like a priori knowledge and a 1:20:11.120 --> 1:20:17.080 posteriori knowledge? Yeah? Okay, So so so like you know, 1:20:17.200 --> 1:20:20.200 for for anyone who might be listening that doesn't really 1:20:20.280 --> 1:20:24.920 know the exact difference. A priori knowledge is the type 1:20:24.920 --> 1:20:28.000 of knowledge that you can have without needing to make 1:20:28.080 --> 1:20:31.479 observations or conduct experiments or look at surveys or do 1:20:31.560 --> 1:20:34.080 any research of any any kind. Is a sort of 1:20:34.160 --> 1:20:37.840 knowledge you can know just by reasoning it out, but 1:20:38.000 --> 1:20:41.479 just by sitting in a room by yourself in the dark, 1:20:41.600 --> 1:20:44.560 you could figure things out. This is the sort This 1:20:44.680 --> 1:20:47.680 is a priori knowledge um. So for an example of 1:20:47.800 --> 1:20:51.760 that is like knowing that all bachelor's are unmarried, right, 1:20:52.000 --> 1:20:55.559 or all triangles of three sides. That's a priori knowledge. 1:20:55.720 --> 1:21:01.000 An example of oppos stereori knowledge um is something that 1:21:01.240 --> 1:21:05.560 you find out through observation or you using one or 1:21:05.680 --> 1:21:09.280 more of your five senses, right, like Joe Biden is 1:21:09.360 --> 1:21:12.960 the President of the United States, Um, the masses of 1:21:13.120 --> 1:21:15.439 Mars is six point four one seven one times ten 1:21:15.560 --> 1:21:18.360 to thes you actually have to go out into the 1:21:18.439 --> 1:21:21.799 world and conduct surveys or do research. So that's oppos 1:21:21.920 --> 1:21:24.880 theory or knowledge. So the idea was to take something 1:21:25.960 --> 1:21:30.679 that was a priori false, something that could that could 1:21:30.920 --> 1:21:35.600 um be disproven by reason alone, like you wouldn't have 1:21:36.040 --> 1:21:38.880 you wouldn't need to do any research. In order to 1:21:39.160 --> 1:21:41.200 to know that it was false, you'd simply had to 1:21:41.320 --> 1:21:46.040 reflect on it and UM think about it. Uh. So 1:21:46.439 --> 1:21:48.680 we could have picked anything, right, we could have We 1:21:48.760 --> 1:21:51.559 could have said made up like a fake news report 1:21:51.640 --> 1:21:56.080 that leaves mathematicians that m I T having invented like 1:21:56.160 --> 1:22:00.200 a square with five sides, something like that. You know, Um, 1:22:00.520 --> 1:22:03.639 I remember that weekend up there and SNL had this sketch. 1:22:04.360 --> 1:22:07.640 I think it was like, um, forget who it was. 1:22:07.720 --> 1:22:09.760 It might have been Kevin Nealon or something like that. 1:22:10.600 --> 1:22:14.280 The report was like scientists and mathematicians have discovered the 1:22:14.320 --> 1:22:17.720 new number. The number exists between five and six, and 1:22:17.800 --> 1:22:20.320 they're calling it the numbers spleen, you know, something like that, 1:22:20.520 --> 1:22:25.960 which is like just impossible. So um, so come up 1:22:26.000 --> 1:22:29.479 with something that could be disproven by reason alone and 1:22:29.600 --> 1:22:33.360 at the same time surrounded with this wealth of online 1:22:33.400 --> 1:22:38.920 information UM supporting its veracity. So, like you know, it 1:22:39.040 --> 1:22:41.560 was kind of a social experiment. So I was like, 1:22:41.680 --> 1:22:45.560 have we are we so far beyond rational thinking that 1:22:45.880 --> 1:22:50.519 even something that can be disproven a priori people would 1:22:50.560 --> 1:22:52.880 believe And it was like we didn't really know the 1:22:52.920 --> 1:22:55.280 answer to that, but we were going to commit to 1:22:55.439 --> 1:22:58.960 creating this thing as though it was real and but 1:22:59.200 --> 1:23:02.360 which was like logically impossible. So in a way it 1:23:02.479 --> 1:23:07.560 anticipated the age of like this information absolutely because it 1:23:07.720 --> 1:23:10.760 wasn't just the thing I kind of alluded to in 1:23:10.840 --> 1:23:12.920 my little scripted portion is that like, yeah, it wasn't 1:23:12.960 --> 1:23:14.719 just the YouTube video. There was also all this extra 1:23:14.800 --> 1:23:19.760 online content that was created, um, some of which yeah yeah, yeah, 1:23:19.840 --> 1:23:21.880 Like there was you can find like articles for them, posts, 1:23:22.160 --> 1:23:24.280 all this kind of stuff like like like if yeah, 1:23:24.360 --> 1:23:25.960 like so if you could look into it more and 1:23:26.080 --> 1:23:28.800 find these other things, but it's still contradicts the basic 1:23:28.880 --> 1:23:32.479 logical processes that we can use to discern what is 1:23:32.560 --> 1:23:35.040 real what is not, um in terms of like yeah, 1:23:35.120 --> 1:23:37.240 in terms of like believing in a five seed square, 1:23:37.280 --> 1:23:39.479 like no that's not what that that that that's not 1:23:39.600 --> 1:23:44.000 how like physics and like spatial like spatial dimensions work. Um. 1:23:45.479 --> 1:23:47.880 So yeah, and then in terms of all the extra 1:23:47.960 --> 1:23:50.519 material you filmed for it, there was like there was 1:23:50.600 --> 1:23:53.080 like I think I read around like nine hours of 1:23:53.160 --> 1:23:57.680 documentary footage. Was also like a lot of footage, but 1:23:57.840 --> 1:24:02.280 it was only made into like probably a thirty minute thing. Um. 1:24:02.439 --> 1:24:04.960 We got our friends like at the very very beginning 1:24:05.000 --> 1:24:06.680 we got our friends to play along with it, like 1:24:06.760 --> 1:24:09.080 so whenever you see posts about this, just comment like 1:24:09.400 --> 1:24:11.599 it's real, Like, yeah, I was there. It was really great, 1:24:12.320 --> 1:24:17.000 and um, eventually people would actually start visiting the stairwell, 1:24:17.240 --> 1:24:20.880 like from all over, like from Canada. They crossed the 1:24:20.960 --> 1:24:24.479 border to get there because it's in upstate New York, right, Um. 1:24:24.720 --> 1:24:28.360 And I actually ran into a couple from India who 1:24:28.439 --> 1:24:30.840 happened to be visiting visiting New York, and they were like, 1:24:30.920 --> 1:24:33.200 since we're here, we'd like to see this starewell that 1:24:33.320 --> 1:24:38.200 sort of thing. Um, I know. I felt really bad 1:24:38.280 --> 1:24:40.160 for a lot of the visitors, so we actually had 1:24:40.200 --> 1:24:43.200 to come up with souvenirs so that they wouldn't leave 1:24:43.280 --> 1:24:46.640 empty handed, right, So we made fake we made postcards 1:24:46.720 --> 1:24:48.320 like saying I've been to the Share and Starell and 1:24:48.320 --> 1:24:53.640 stuff like that program and um what happened and the 1:24:53.680 --> 1:24:55.640 way we explained it, so a lot of people were 1:24:55.720 --> 1:24:58.160 really mad actually you know, as you can imagine when 1:24:58.160 --> 1:25:02.280 they got there, but after or um, we would explain 1:25:02.360 --> 1:25:05.240 what we were doing to them with the project. Like 1:25:05.320 --> 1:25:07.840 a lot of them actually like started playing along and 1:25:07.880 --> 1:25:10.240 thought was really cool, and they went home with their 1:25:10.320 --> 1:25:12.760 souvenirs and told their friends that they just saw this 1:25:12.840 --> 1:25:15.120 amazing thing. So, you know, it kind of built that 1:25:15.240 --> 1:25:17.439 way for a little bit. I mean yeah, because it's 1:25:17.479 --> 1:25:21.040 it's like telling kids that Santa isn't real exactly, and 1:25:21.080 --> 1:25:22.920 then some of them will be like play along with 1:25:22.960 --> 1:25:24.760 like okay, cool, this means I can play along with 1:25:24.840 --> 1:25:27.280 the myth to help you other kids happy. And some 1:25:27.320 --> 1:25:30.080 of them will be like what, oh no, my entire 1:25:30.200 --> 1:25:35.360 reality is broken. And when you find out, is your 1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:38.600 trying to like pass it on exactly that. So a 1:25:38.720 --> 1:25:42.680 lot of that was going on, like Shock the basketball 1:25:42.720 --> 1:25:45.360 player posted about it. At some point, Joe Rogan talked 1:25:45.360 --> 1:25:48.320 about it on his podcast. They got kind of crazy. 1:25:49.400 --> 1:25:54.200 Wait wait did Joe Rogan know it wasn't real? Um, 1:25:54.439 --> 1:25:56.439 it's funny. You should see the clip of him doing it, 1:25:56.479 --> 1:25:58.320 because he was like it was him, and who's the 1:25:58.400 --> 1:26:01.760 other guy, Bert Kreiser or something. Anyway, they were arguing 1:26:01.760 --> 1:26:03.680 about whether or not was really. The other guy was like, no, 1:26:03.800 --> 1:26:07.280 it's real, it's so real. Was like, all you guys 1:26:07.320 --> 1:26:10.120 are fucking idiots. You're all idiots. Let's google it right now. 1:26:10.640 --> 1:26:13.479 They google it and they look up an article and 1:26:13.600 --> 1:26:16.639 Joe Joe Rogan's like Okay, yeah, all right, it's still 1:26:16.720 --> 1:26:19.560 fucking stupid. The guy who built it is fucking you know. 1:26:20.280 --> 1:26:24.840 That is so good. I you have You have no 1:26:24.960 --> 1:26:27.479 idea how happy you have faked me because I in 1:26:27.640 --> 1:26:29.960 my in my research, but like like I have like 1:26:30.080 --> 1:26:32.760 read your thesis. I read all the lots of articles 1:26:32.800 --> 1:26:35.519 about this. I did not come across the Joe Rogan clip, 1:26:35.760 --> 1:26:40.600 but I would right right, Um it's like way back right, 1:26:40.640 --> 1:26:42.400 it's like ten years ago, and it's like a lot 1:26:42.439 --> 1:26:44.840 of stuff to dig through and I found it though. Again, 1:26:45.720 --> 1:26:48.280 um so I'd like to kind of go to like 1:26:48.320 --> 1:26:50.320 the logistics of like actually doing this in terms of 1:26:50.439 --> 1:26:53.000 like creating all the fake like web content, but also 1:26:53.080 --> 1:26:56.960 like you know, dreaming up this like family friendly science 1:26:57.080 --> 1:26:59.600 show that's made by r I T Like how like 1:26:59.760 --> 1:27:02.160 you know the thing between like naturalism and realism and 1:27:02.280 --> 1:27:05.920 making it like playing not trying to replicate reality, but 1:27:06.040 --> 1:27:08.760 playing as if it were reality, and how those those 1:27:08.760 --> 1:27:13.040 are two different things. Um yeah, well, what we wanted 1:27:13.120 --> 1:27:16.160 to make it as real as possible, and like that's 1:27:16.280 --> 1:27:19.439 what I was was. I'd been studying anyway, but in 1:27:19.560 --> 1:27:25.120 like a dramatic context, like making narrative films UM, and 1:27:25.400 --> 1:27:29.080 the idea was to, um, there's this event at r 1:27:29.120 --> 1:27:31.160 I t every year which gets a lot of people, 1:27:31.320 --> 1:27:34.240 like thirty thou people a year. Go to the campus 1:27:34.320 --> 1:27:38.719 and look at like, um, these uh whatever the students 1:27:38.760 --> 1:27:40.720 are working on. It's kind of like a mini like 1:27:40.960 --> 1:27:43.920 festival type of thing. Well, not many is pretty big, 1:27:44.120 --> 1:27:46.880 So we we wanted to make a video for that event. 1:27:47.600 --> 1:27:50.080 UM as though we were promoting the event, Hey, come 1:27:50.120 --> 1:27:52.600 see the assurance there. Well, when you get your r 1:27:52.640 --> 1:27:56.120 I t UM and you know you normally for these 1:27:56.200 --> 1:27:58.840 like for these for these events, if you have a 1:27:58.880 --> 1:28:01.400 booth or something, you'll see reservations and you'll see like 1:28:01.439 --> 1:28:04.679 four people reserve fifteen people. Like we were like started 1:28:04.720 --> 1:28:07.679 getting nervous, and we found out we got a sense 1:28:07.760 --> 1:28:10.080 that this was gonna be big because like when I 1:28:10.200 --> 1:28:14.560 looked at like the reservations for like our non existent stairwell, 1:28:14.960 --> 1:28:20.479 there were like one thousand plus visitors visited. Um. Yeah. 1:28:21.360 --> 1:28:24.160 I still remember like going to campus that day at 1:28:24.160 --> 1:28:27.880 the festival Saturday, and like my friend Ira like comes 1:28:28.000 --> 1:28:30.479 up to me. He's like, Mike, people want to kill you, 1:28:30.720 --> 1:28:32.920 Like cover get over here, And I was like trying 1:28:33.000 --> 1:28:36.600 to not show my faith, but anyway, yeah, that's what. 1:28:37.160 --> 1:28:40.240 So what the way, Like a lot of the legs 1:28:40.280 --> 1:28:42.759 of the project was just like word of mouth, I guess, 1:28:43.000 --> 1:28:46.240 and we actually ran out of money. Um, we didn't 1:28:46.400 --> 1:28:49.400 get to do like the web stuff on the scale 1:28:49.479 --> 1:28:51.880 that we wanted to. But it turned out that we 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:55.160 didn't even have to. In fact, like within a few 1:28:55.320 --> 1:28:58.879 days or maybe a week or something after the original 1:28:59.000 --> 1:29:03.000 video came out, I posted a video explaining that it's 1:29:03.000 --> 1:29:05.160 a myth. Like I posted it and I was like, 1:29:05.200 --> 1:29:07.479 all right, that was a fun ride. Now I's gonna 1:29:07.520 --> 1:29:12.720 be over because here's a video of me explaining everything, right, 1:29:13.120 --> 1:29:15.640 And people still didn't believe it. People were saying that 1:29:15.800 --> 1:29:19.240 my my video explaining was fake, that was a conspiracy. 1:29:19.360 --> 1:29:23.439 Like people were, you know, like there so invested the 1:29:24.280 --> 1:29:26.040 inside the actual myth of it. Yeah, because it is 1:29:26.720 --> 1:29:29.120 it is so much for a lot of people, they 1:29:29.320 --> 1:29:31.720 thought that is more compelling than the idea that it 1:29:31.920 --> 1:29:35.000 is this like you know, project around what is real 1:29:35.120 --> 1:29:37.400 what's not. They've got so invested in the reality of 1:29:37.479 --> 1:29:42.320 it that they'll explain away every other explanation, right right, 1:29:43.439 --> 1:29:49.320 um exactly, Like my I had a teacher at Rutgers 1:29:49.360 --> 1:29:51.840 where I did my undergrad to Maudlin. He used to 1:29:51.920 --> 1:29:54.519 say that, you know, there's two types of thinking. There's 1:29:54.640 --> 1:29:59.400 reasoning and there's rationalizing. Reasoning is when when you start 1:29:59.479 --> 1:30:02.800 from a play so ignorance, and you, um, look at 1:30:02.840 --> 1:30:05.519 the best evidence and the best arguments you can find 1:30:06.000 --> 1:30:09.680 and follow that through to the you know, the rational conclusion. 1:30:10.280 --> 1:30:13.880 Rationalizing is when you start from what you want to 1:30:13.960 --> 1:30:19.920 believe and working backwards and looking for you confirmations right, 1:30:20.040 --> 1:30:22.920 looking for the arguments that are already support where you're thaying. There. 1:30:23.040 --> 1:30:26.240 There was a lot of a lot of rationalizing going on. 1:30:26.600 --> 1:30:32.760 I guess people wanted to believe it. Yeah, for for 1:30:32.920 --> 1:30:35.920 the how much how many people because they assume for 1:30:35.960 --> 1:30:37.760 all of the filming like like everyone was all like 1:30:38.120 --> 1:30:39.680 in on it. But yeah, you know, there a whole 1:30:39.680 --> 1:30:41.120 bunch of great stuff around, like all of like the 1:30:41.160 --> 1:30:43.559 Men on the Street segments are are are like perfectly 1:30:43.600 --> 1:30:46.519 done in terms of like people like just acting like 1:30:46.560 --> 1:30:50.479 regular university students, like talking about the stairwell and like 1:30:50.520 --> 1:30:52.799 how they've got like lost, and then they're like looping 1:30:52.840 --> 1:30:55.880 around in a circle. Um, and all the segments with 1:30:55.960 --> 1:30:58.920 you with like inside the stairwell with all like the 1:30:59.000 --> 1:31:01.240 very like the very clever other thing. I assume you're 1:31:01.320 --> 1:31:05.280 using stuff like Adobe after effects um, and yeah, it's 1:31:05.560 --> 1:31:08.720 it is played. It's played so well like it's it's 1:31:08.880 --> 1:31:10.040 I think part of the part of why it's so 1:31:10.120 --> 1:31:13.519 successful is that it's not filmed like you would film 1:31:13.680 --> 1:31:15.840 something too high like like like for a lot of 1:31:15.880 --> 1:31:17.519 films when they want to do like like you know, 1:31:17.600 --> 1:31:20.479 like like ah the term is like a wonner where 1:31:20.479 --> 1:31:21.960 they has like one long shot and then they like 1:31:22.080 --> 1:31:24.839 hide the transitions in between. You can you can obviously 1:31:24.880 --> 1:31:26.960 tell like they're filming it to make these transitions work 1:31:27.439 --> 1:31:29.960 versus the way you film. This is just how people 1:31:30.040 --> 1:31:32.760 would film it if they were filming this four reel 1:31:33.280 --> 1:31:36.040 um and they tell that, and it's it is so 1:31:36.760 --> 1:31:40.760 carefully done because it's not trying to be something it is. 1:31:40.880 --> 1:31:44.080 It is just being the thing so earnestly in terms 1:31:44.160 --> 1:31:46.639 of like how how the actors like stumble over their 1:31:46.680 --> 1:31:49.640 lines and the like the opening segment, um, like the 1:31:49.720 --> 1:31:51.960 aesthetics of like all of like the title cards and 1:31:52.040 --> 1:31:55.120 everything is just so it has this has this like 1:31:55.240 --> 1:31:58.400 aura of earnestness, which I think helps sells the whole 1:31:58.439 --> 1:32:03.200 project so so much. Yeah. Yeah, actually speaking of the 1:32:03.280 --> 1:32:06.600 show and like the cheesy title cards and stuff, my 1:32:06.840 --> 1:32:09.679 girlfriend at the time was a producer for this show 1:32:09.760 --> 1:32:14.240 called this local show called Homework Cutline and where kids 1:32:14.320 --> 1:32:17.160 calling with their homework and they answer questions about it. 1:32:17.800 --> 1:32:20.759 I studied the ship out of that show, just looking 1:32:20.840 --> 1:32:23.519 at how they built the sets and how cheesy and 1:32:23.600 --> 1:32:26.960 how awkward like the hosts were, because a lot of 1:32:27.080 --> 1:32:29.240 it was like a lot of the realism I think 1:32:29.320 --> 1:32:33.080 of it is just um, yeah, the awkwardness of the people, 1:32:33.560 --> 1:32:36.680 how it's not, um, it's not really meant to be 1:32:36.880 --> 1:32:41.680 and and like like the best the most convincing untruths, 1:32:41.800 --> 1:32:45.280 right is a combination of fact and fiction and you 1:32:45.400 --> 1:32:48.320 know a lot of and blending in the actors with 1:32:48.520 --> 1:32:52.120 real people you know, in in in the in the 1:32:52.240 --> 1:32:55.280 actual video stuff like that. It's like, yeah, like it 1:32:55.320 --> 1:33:01.800 comes goes pretty viral. Um, you like pretty quick create 1:33:01.880 --> 1:33:04.519 a very easy explanation for no, it's not it's not real. 1:33:04.600 --> 1:33:06.599 It's started this project. People still believe it for years 1:33:06.640 --> 1:33:09.519 and years. Um. As kind of the decade progresses and 1:33:09.600 --> 1:33:12.880 we go into like the era of disinformation, everyone starts 1:33:12.920 --> 1:33:15.120 getting phones in their pockets. Everyone has Facebook with them 1:33:15.160 --> 1:33:17.160 wherever they go, everyone has Twitter with them wherever they go. 1:33:17.760 --> 1:33:19.599 How is kind of your views on like the ethics 1:33:19.680 --> 1:33:22.760 of the project and what it demonstrates in terms of 1:33:22.880 --> 1:33:24.640 like a case study and like a social experiment, Like 1:33:24.680 --> 1:33:26.720 how has that changed over the years from like you 1:33:27.000 --> 1:33:29.120 like ten years ago when you're dreaming this up to 1:33:29.320 --> 1:33:32.320 you now after you know, we've had stuff like you know, 1:33:32.479 --> 1:33:35.280 like January six and two and on, you know, all 1:33:35.320 --> 1:33:37.400 these types of things which I feel like if are 1:33:37.439 --> 1:33:39.960 almost like foreshadowed in this in this weird way by 1:33:40.160 --> 1:33:46.240 showing how successful your little project is. Yeah, so a 1:33:46.360 --> 1:33:49.760 lot of a lot of the criticisms that it was 1:33:50.920 --> 1:33:53.840 face from the get go, like from R I. T. Professors, 1:33:53.920 --> 1:33:57.120 even it's still facing right now, Like it's still the 1:33:57.200 --> 1:34:00.360 type of thing people bring up, which is set actually 1:34:01.160 --> 1:34:04.120 that hey, there's so much disinformation out there. At the time, 1:34:04.160 --> 1:34:08.080 we weren't even using those terms disinformation disinformation, right, but 1:34:08.200 --> 1:34:11.760 basically people were. We're bringing up the same complaints, which 1:34:11.840 --> 1:34:16.000 is there's so much disinformation out there, you're basically just 1:34:16.160 --> 1:34:18.560 adding to it. What what are you even doing? So 1:34:18.800 --> 1:34:22.880 I guess the idea is that and you know, It's 1:34:22.920 --> 1:34:29.080 a very noble idea, which is what's our response to disinformation? Right, 1:34:29.400 --> 1:34:31.840 we should I guess the idea is we should call 1:34:31.920 --> 1:34:35.320 out every instance of it when we can flag posts, UM, 1:34:35.760 --> 1:34:41.040 report posts that violate community community standards, you know, speak out, UM, 1:34:41.160 --> 1:34:44.000 provide counter evidence when you see fake news that sort 1:34:44.040 --> 1:34:47.840 of thing, And I think that's great, that's a good thing, UM. 1:34:48.040 --> 1:34:53.160 But disinformation. The problem of disinformation is at the time. 1:34:53.320 --> 1:34:55.200 This is kind of how I explained that, like ten 1:34:55.320 --> 1:34:57.760 years ago, I I described it as a pen as 1:34:57.840 --> 1:35:01.600 an epidemic, Yeah, no, absolutely right, or or like a 1:35:01.680 --> 1:35:05.320 cockroach infestation, like every time you kill one, ten more 1:35:05.400 --> 1:35:09.200 spring up. And the this this notion of like we 1:35:09.360 --> 1:35:13.040 gotta call out every instance of disinformation and stomp it 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:18.360 away is like it's great, but you're focused on killing cockroaches. Yeah, 1:35:18.400 --> 1:35:20.800 it's like addressing the symptoms not the actual problem. Right, 1:35:20.960 --> 1:35:24.000 I want to get to the cockroach's nest. Right. And 1:35:24.160 --> 1:35:29.000 whenever whenever I give talks about this UM this project, 1:35:29.120 --> 1:35:32.840 people always approach me afterwards, you know, like wanting me 1:35:33.080 --> 1:35:35.000 to kind of because we we don't just talk about 1:35:35.040 --> 1:35:37.439 this project. We talk about like deep fake stuff, like 1:35:37.560 --> 1:35:41.439 we show speeches of Obama like looking like the real Obama, 1:35:41.479 --> 1:35:44.640 but it's like completely fake, right, And people start to 1:35:44.720 --> 1:35:46.840 realize the holy sh it, like I don't even know 1:35:47.080 --> 1:35:49.280 what's real or not anymore, Like what can I trust? 1:35:49.360 --> 1:35:53.040 And they approach me expecting me to ease their anxiety 1:35:53.200 --> 1:35:55.479 somehow and kind of like guide them through how to 1:35:55.560 --> 1:35:59.280 discern what's true from what's not, as though my project 1:35:59.439 --> 1:36:03.320 was about finding some sort of solution, And I tell 1:36:03.400 --> 1:36:07.000 them that, like, my project wasn't about solving the problem. 1:36:07.560 --> 1:36:10.720 It was about seeing the problem, right, It's about it's 1:36:10.760 --> 1:36:13.240 about trying to get to the heart of the matter. 1:36:13.520 --> 1:36:16.160 And it's like to me, I think, like the heart 1:36:16.240 --> 1:36:21.400 of the matter, like the cockroach's nest is the I 1:36:21.439 --> 1:36:24.679 don't know you. There are different ways to say, but basically, 1:36:24.800 --> 1:36:28.960 the the lack of critical thinking and individuals and like 1:36:29.080 --> 1:36:33.840 in this society we shaped together or um or lack 1:36:33.920 --> 1:36:37.160 of a willingness to think through things carefully. Maybe that's 1:36:37.760 --> 1:36:41.720 that's um. That's like if we had a society of 1:36:41.800 --> 1:36:44.320 critical thinkers, this wouldn't be much of a problem. I 1:36:44.400 --> 1:36:46.680 think it's because so many people come at a lot 1:36:46.760 --> 1:36:49.599 of information from like when you would say the rational 1:36:49.720 --> 1:36:52.599 viewpoint it's like they're trying to use reason and stuff, 1:36:52.600 --> 1:36:54.959 like they're trying to think critically, they're trying to think logically, 1:36:55.360 --> 1:36:57.880 but they come at it in terms of rationalizing stuff 1:36:57.880 --> 1:37:01.599 they already believe. Um. And I think that's a very 1:37:01.800 --> 1:37:04.320 prevailing type of idea in terms of like, yes, I'm 1:37:04.360 --> 1:37:06.320 gonna believe in this thing, so I'm gonna find evidence 1:37:06.360 --> 1:37:10.840 to support it um, which isn't critical thinking. I don't think. 1:37:10.960 --> 1:37:13.439 I not really know that it is. That is itself 1:37:13.479 --> 1:37:16.160 a logical fallacy. But that is so calm, especially on 1:37:16.200 --> 1:37:19.080 the Internet, because the Internet encourages the backfire effects. You know, 1:37:19.120 --> 1:37:22.080 whenever someone calls in on something, you want to be right. 1:37:22.479 --> 1:37:24.559 So you're gonna as soon as as soon as someone 1:37:24.600 --> 1:37:26.840 calls something, you're going to backfire. You're going to like 1:37:27.320 --> 1:37:31.160 become even more entrenched in what you believe. Um when 1:37:31.200 --> 1:37:33.200 you you know, when when you explain to someone that know, 1:37:33.400 --> 1:37:36.160 Hillary Clinton is bad, but she doesn't eat the blood 1:37:36.200 --> 1:37:39.120 of children, like, no, she does. I saw all this thing. 1:37:39.240 --> 1:37:40.920 I have to believe it because like all of the 1:37:41.000 --> 1:37:43.000 things that are tied up in what makes you a person, 1:37:43.080 --> 1:37:46.200 and now all of these ideas that have that where 1:37:46.280 --> 1:37:47.800 used to be just be. Conspiracy theories that you could 1:37:47.800 --> 1:37:50.200 believe in for fun are now so a part of 1:37:50.840 --> 1:37:53.439 like what people's sense of being are and how they 1:37:53.520 --> 1:37:56.360 have their entire world view that there's so much more 1:37:57.560 --> 1:37:59.639 because the Internet is such a bigger part of their lives. 1:37:59.720 --> 1:38:01.320 Everything on the Internet is a bigger part of the 1:38:01.400 --> 1:38:03.439 lives for each person. So it is more of an 1:38:03.479 --> 1:38:06.439 ontological threat because these things are so closer together now, right, 1:38:06.479 --> 1:38:08.400 They used to be much more distinction between the Internet 1:38:08.400 --> 1:38:10.400 and you because you can only ask the computer every 1:38:10.439 --> 1:38:12.040 once in a while. We can now carry around a 1:38:12.120 --> 1:38:14.400 supercomputer wherever we go, so it is like a part 1:38:14.479 --> 1:38:16.200 of you. Like you bring it with you almost everywhere. 1:38:16.240 --> 1:38:18.800 It's always in your pocket. So these things are so 1:38:19.800 --> 1:38:23.479 like stitched together that prying them apart and telling people 1:38:23.560 --> 1:38:26.360 know this thing you would carry around actually probably most 1:38:26.360 --> 1:38:28.960 don't you see on it isn't isn't actually true? Like 1:38:29.240 --> 1:38:32.679 there is People can like believe that in their heads 1:38:33.160 --> 1:38:36.280 but don't actually don't. Actually the belief doesn't actually impact 1:38:36.280 --> 1:38:38.519 them because like we all know that there's like well 1:38:38.600 --> 1:38:40.160 we all know that people can still on the Internet 1:38:40.200 --> 1:38:42.160 and lie, right there is like part of the joke, 1:38:42.640 --> 1:38:45.760 but we still don't act like it, Like oftentimes we 1:38:45.800 --> 1:38:50.160 get so we get so like encased into the stories 1:38:50.200 --> 1:38:52.040 that we tell ourselves. Right, the part of why the 1:38:52.040 --> 1:38:54.240 Issharing stairwell is so good is that it's such a 1:38:54.280 --> 1:38:56.519 it's such a compelling story like that, Like the idea 1:38:56.520 --> 1:38:59.599 of like a brilliant architect bringing like you know, building 1:39:00.080 --> 1:39:03.479 is paradox in the real world is like, is so 1:39:03.640 --> 1:39:06.600 much more fun than being like, yeah, some dude just 1:39:06.760 --> 1:39:09.840 knows how to use Adobe after effects. Like right, So 1:39:10.240 --> 1:39:13.920 you get so entrenched in the storytelling because the story 1:39:14.000 --> 1:39:16.960 of like politicians eating the eating the blood of children 1:39:17.280 --> 1:39:20.400 is so much more interesting than no, politicians just don't 1:39:20.439 --> 1:39:23.760 care about you, like, and getting to the heart of 1:39:23.800 --> 1:39:26.720 that problem is so much more difficult than just you know, 1:39:27.080 --> 1:39:29.760 debunking things, because you can debunk things all day and 1:39:30.960 --> 1:39:34.320 does that actually matter? Yeah? I think there there's there's 1:39:34.320 --> 1:39:36.439 a secondary problem that like you know, there's another like 1:39:37.120 --> 1:39:38.640 a lether level of it, which is that, yeah, like 1:39:38.680 --> 1:39:42.240 everyone knows that there's information now, like everyone does. But 1:39:42.320 --> 1:39:44.640 but that just makes it worse because now if you 1:39:44.680 --> 1:39:46.720 want to do this information, what you can claim is like, oh, hey, 1:39:46.760 --> 1:39:48.759 look at all these other times that all the stuff 1:39:48.760 --> 1:39:50.120 has been fake, and then you know, and this is 1:39:50.160 --> 1:39:53.240 how you get everyone like doing frame by frame analysis 1:39:53.280 --> 1:39:55.160 of like a bombing and going oh, these are all 1:39:55.200 --> 1:39:58.040 crisis actors. And it's like you know, and you like 1:39:58.120 --> 1:40:00.240 you talk to these people and they're like, oh, no, 1:40:00.320 --> 1:40:02.600 I I did. I did the research. Look I like 1:40:02.640 --> 1:40:04.760 I saw through the lives. It's like, no, You've just 1:40:05.000 --> 1:40:07.519 completely made this thing up in your head. You can 1:40:07.600 --> 1:40:10.560 see the green screen compression. They're like, no, it's just 1:40:10.680 --> 1:40:13.439 regular video compression. And it's like yeah, like everyone can 1:40:13.479 --> 1:40:16.280 be a detective now, so everyone can be so convinced 1:40:16.320 --> 1:40:18.559 to their own conclusions even when the conclusions turn out 1:40:18.600 --> 1:40:23.760 to be not true. Right, it's a problem. If there 1:40:23.840 --> 1:40:26.519 was an exy solution, we wouldn't have the problem. Right. 1:40:26.560 --> 1:40:28.799 It's one of those things where it's like your project 1:40:28.880 --> 1:40:31.400 is a very good example of like it's it's it's 1:40:31.479 --> 1:40:34.000 it's a very demonstrative thing. You can like you you 1:40:34.160 --> 1:40:37.000 take someone along this journey and demonstrate, hey, this can 1:40:37.120 --> 1:40:39.040 happen to you, so you should watch out for us. Right, 1:40:39.280 --> 1:40:41.560 Look look at the story I crafted. Look how you 1:40:41.640 --> 1:40:44.080 become convinced of it for these six minutes and then 1:40:44.120 --> 1:40:47.560 you think, oh wait, no, you can't teleport to a 1:40:47.600 --> 1:40:50.439 bottom stairwell. That's not that's not how that works. Um. 1:40:50.920 --> 1:40:53.160 But because you take them on that journey, it's a 1:40:53.280 --> 1:40:54.880 very it's a I love it so much as like 1:40:54.960 --> 1:40:59.160 a demonstrative process being like like this can happen, so 1:40:59.280 --> 1:41:01.240 watch out for in the future. Do you think is 1:41:01.280 --> 1:41:07.240 honestly more useful than just debunking somebody because you can 1:41:07.280 --> 1:41:10.160 debunk all day, you can have the backfire effect and stuff. Yeah, 1:41:10.200 --> 1:41:13.120 And you're right about the demonstrative stuff, because it's like 1:41:14.200 --> 1:41:16.960 if a bunch of film students and volunteers with no 1:41:17.160 --> 1:41:20.720 connections and no resources pulled this off like we did, 1:41:20.840 --> 1:41:24.240 like a tally of all the videos at the end 1:41:24.280 --> 1:41:27.160 of the year of um, you know, all the videos 1:41:27.240 --> 1:41:29.400 that ripped it off and posted on their own channels 1:41:29.439 --> 1:41:32.439 and all that, Um, it was like fifty million, right. 1:41:32.720 --> 1:41:36.040 So if if a bunch of film students like had 1:41:36.160 --> 1:41:38.760 that much influence, what more can like people who are 1:41:38.840 --> 1:41:45.280 actually fun like power and resources, right, what could they do? 1:41:45.840 --> 1:41:48.280 And we were just doing and ours was about like 1:41:48.439 --> 1:41:52.120 this innocuous, silly stairwell. It wasn't about anything that would 1:41:52.200 --> 1:41:56.160 cause you know, anyone's death or anything like that, or 1:41:57.360 --> 1:42:00.160 and like you know, something like in me and are 1:42:00.520 --> 1:42:07.719 where the ME and MAR military basically systemically systematically created 1:42:07.920 --> 1:42:12.799 fake articles and fake photos to create like to arouse 1:42:12.920 --> 1:42:16.280 dis dame for the row hinge of people and basically 1:42:16.360 --> 1:42:20.760 they incited a genocide through Facebook, just through fake news 1:42:20.920 --> 1:42:24.120 right in the Philippines where I live right now. Um, 1:42:25.080 --> 1:42:29.200 which a lot of commentators call like the patient zero 1:42:29.600 --> 1:42:36.519 of disinformation because this guy called was elected president basically 1:42:37.120 --> 1:42:41.800 ran running his entire campaign on disinformation, and after him 1:42:41.920 --> 1:42:44.560 was Brexit like a month later, and after that was 1:42:44.840 --> 1:42:48.120 Trump got the nomination. So like what's her named Kate 1:42:48.280 --> 1:42:51.840 Katie Barth, Barth or or something like that. One of 1:42:51.880 --> 1:42:55.439 the executives of Facebook referred to the Philippines as patient 1:42:55.600 --> 1:43:01.439 zero in the era disinformation because like, um, and the 1:43:01.640 --> 1:43:06.000 thing that the president here right now was running on 1:43:06.320 --> 1:43:10.800 was basically like the same sort of um bothering and 1:43:10.960 --> 1:43:13.720 scapegoating of a certain group. And he said, basically he's 1:43:13.760 --> 1:43:16.599 the guy who said, like basically, if you're a drug 1:43:16.720 --> 1:43:19.080 user or a drug dealer, it should be okay to 1:43:19.200 --> 1:43:21.920 murder you and kill you. And that's what happened. That's 1:43:22.000 --> 1:43:25.200 exactly what happened because they were posting all these stories 1:43:25.760 --> 1:43:29.479 about um, you know the same sorts of stories that 1:43:29.640 --> 1:43:32.280 you that that we saw in the US in twenties 1:43:32.360 --> 1:43:35.960 sixteen about undocumented immigrants or Muslims or something like that. 1:43:36.439 --> 1:43:39.400 This like oh, this undocumented immigrant raped the five year 1:43:39.400 --> 1:43:42.840 old girl, you know that sort of thing. And he 1:43:42.920 --> 1:43:48.439 would the the the organized campaign um making up stories 1:43:48.479 --> 1:43:53.960 about drug addicts like murdering and raping people. Basically like 1:43:54.240 --> 1:43:58.320 got an entire nation too, well, not an entire nation, 1:43:58.439 --> 1:44:02.720 but basically this guy on the election and you know, 1:44:03.360 --> 1:44:07.880 we have a country right now that basically lived through 1:44:08.479 --> 1:44:12.720 just atrocities the last five six years, you know. And 1:44:12.880 --> 1:44:15.479 like the double edged sort of this, like Chris mentioned, 1:44:15.600 --> 1:44:19.400 is like yeah, this type same type of thing. Because 1:44:19.439 --> 1:44:22.840 it exists, people also like retroractively apply it to like 1:44:23.240 --> 1:44:26.400 you know, like Sandy Hook was staged or like even 1:44:26.479 --> 1:44:29.240 stuff now with like you know the pandemic, right, people 1:44:29.479 --> 1:44:31.400 like what if what is what if the pandemic is 1:44:31.439 --> 1:44:33.240 a real? What if all these people have just you 1:44:33.320 --> 1:44:36.479 know conjured this thing into being and it's all a 1:44:36.640 --> 1:44:39.479 giant insifferation campaign, right, So it has this dual it 1:44:39.560 --> 1:44:43.040 has this double edged sword nature um, which makes combat 1:44:43.080 --> 1:44:46.559 and information so challenging. It's like disiforation to combat information, 1:44:46.640 --> 1:44:49.960 to connect the idea of disinformation, and there's so many 1:44:50.479 --> 1:44:54.519 layers of it. Now, this, this, this, it's just yeah, 1:44:54.560 --> 1:44:56.360 it makes it, It makes actually get into the heart 1:44:56.400 --> 1:44:58.479 of it so much more challenging. It's been abstracted so 1:44:58.600 --> 1:45:02.200 many times. One of the things what didn't didn't the 1:45:02.240 --> 1:45:03.880 New York Times weren't it the first people to come 1:45:03.920 --> 1:45:05.559 up with the term fake news? And then Trump started 1:45:05.640 --> 1:45:09.800 using it after like were watching Potificate, which newsuper was. 1:45:09.880 --> 1:45:11.479 But my memory if it was like it was, it 1:45:11.560 --> 1:45:12.920 was it was the media that came up with fake 1:45:12.960 --> 1:45:15.960 news and then like Trump just took it and it 1:45:16.040 --> 1:45:19.519 became this like this just like demon they absolutely could 1:45:19.560 --> 1:45:22.760 not control and was just turned on them. Do you 1:45:22.880 --> 1:45:25.400 do you remember the context in which they used it. 1:45:26.000 --> 1:45:28.439 They were like they were I think they were calling 1:45:29.280 --> 1:45:33.559 like stuff that Trump said fake news. M M I am. 1:45:33.600 --> 1:45:37.519 I'm unsure at the moment who specifically coined to that term. 1:45:38.280 --> 1:45:40.439 But I mean we definitely see in terms like even 1:45:40.600 --> 1:45:43.160 in even terms like desperation, which used to be more 1:45:43.240 --> 1:45:46.479 tied to like a discording in philosophy, breaking like in 1:45:46.600 --> 1:45:48.760 like even even back even as back far as like 1:45:48.800 --> 1:45:51.760 the eighties, getting you know, turned into an actual like 1:45:51.880 --> 1:45:56.479 political term that everybody uses. It was actually somebody from 1:45:56.600 --> 1:45:59.600 buzz Speed. An editor at buzz Speed was one of 1:45:59.800 --> 1:46:03.679 that makes sense, is one of the ones who first 1:46:03.760 --> 1:46:09.479 popularized it. Was Yeah, but there could be there could 1:46:09.520 --> 1:46:12.960 be you know, several other people that say that they 1:46:13.080 --> 1:46:15.479 coined it. I don't know, I mean, I even there's 1:46:15.520 --> 1:46:21.160 even uh an illustration from eight nine four by by 1:46:21.280 --> 1:46:26.919 Frederick Offer with reporters carrying newspapers labeled humble news, cheap sensation, 1:46:27.040 --> 1:46:29.800 and fake news. So it's I mean, in terms of 1:46:29.880 --> 1:46:31.880 in terms of just mashing words together. I'm sure it 1:46:31.960 --> 1:46:34.600 has has had a decent history, but definitely Trump is 1:46:34.640 --> 1:46:38.840 the one that like launched it into the zeitgeist. Right right, right, 1:46:41.640 --> 1:46:43.960 Let's see, Robert, you've been pretty quiet. I know it's 1:46:44.040 --> 1:46:45.920 pretty early in the morning for you. Do you have 1:46:45.960 --> 1:46:47.800 any do you have any kind of thoughts to help 1:46:47.920 --> 1:46:50.439 us kind of generally start closing us out, not not 1:46:50.640 --> 1:46:53.200 not like super immediately, but generally having that direction. I 1:46:53.280 --> 1:46:55.400 mean you no, not really kind of brought up everything. 1:46:55.760 --> 1:47:02.800 I would say, all right, all right, it's a yeah, 1:47:03.760 --> 1:47:07.679 I guess, uh, Mike, what have How is this project 1:47:07.880 --> 1:47:10.840 of impacted how you approach film and just like how 1:47:10.960 --> 1:47:14.200 you how you use the internet yourself in the past decade? 1:47:16.280 --> 1:47:23.080 Mm hmm, Well, I I'm fully aware of what we did. 1:47:23.760 --> 1:47:26.240 Every time I'm like looking at something, I'm like, they 1:47:26.280 --> 1:47:28.560 had done that? Could they have done this? And that, 1:47:28.760 --> 1:47:33.560 you know that sort of thing. Um, I don't know 1:47:33.640 --> 1:47:37.320 if it's if yeah, I don't I'm not sure how 1:47:37.400 --> 1:47:44.519 it's how this project specifically impacted me, other than just 1:47:44.640 --> 1:47:48.439 trying to think through things a bit more carefully, trying 1:47:48.479 --> 1:47:52.760 to go through things like, um, I mean, like so 1:47:53.400 --> 1:47:57.160 we we basically came up with this idea of what 1:47:57.360 --> 1:48:00.560 eventually became troll farms, right like me and like my 1:48:00.720 --> 1:48:05.120 classmates would hey, we even make fake accounts and like 1:48:05.560 --> 1:48:11.200 talk about the stairwell and um, so, I don't know, 1:48:11.360 --> 1:48:13.800 like a few years later, people we we learned that 1:48:13.880 --> 1:48:17.879 people were actually doing this, like to influence like elections 1:48:17.920 --> 1:48:22.479 around the world, and a lot of the strategy of 1:48:22.680 --> 1:48:27.400 like the Russian troll forms and stuff, um was to 1:48:27.840 --> 1:48:32.360 basically create caricature versions right of arguments from whatever side, 1:48:32.439 --> 1:48:36.760 like you know, whether they might present an argument from 1:48:36.960 --> 1:48:39.120 like the left or the right, but in like a 1:48:39.240 --> 1:48:43.240 caricaturized version of it. And um, so what people would 1:48:43.240 --> 1:48:46.240 see when they see that, they'd see an argument coming 1:48:46.280 --> 1:48:49.000 from the other side, and they'd ridicule it, like look 1:48:49.040 --> 1:48:53.400 at these people who just seem crazy espousing this whatever view, 1:48:54.080 --> 1:48:57.559 you know, or they might say things like, um, like yeah, 1:48:57.680 --> 1:49:00.280 if you're a Democrat, you want to abort babe bees 1:49:00.320 --> 1:49:02.679 that like the ninth month or something like that, which 1:49:02.760 --> 1:49:06.920 no reasonable person actually argued. So what happens is like, um, 1:49:07.560 --> 1:49:10.640 people talk about how the goal of Russia was to 1:49:10.760 --> 1:49:16.880 like polarize, you know, um, polarize the political spectrum. I think, 1:49:17.000 --> 1:49:21.679 like the bigger goal and the the goal that we're 1:49:21.720 --> 1:49:26.120 going to be untangling for many many years. And the more, um, 1:49:27.880 --> 1:49:30.920 the more difficult problem to deal with was that they 1:49:31.240 --> 1:49:36.880 oversimple They successfully oversimplified discourse, you know what I'm saying, 1:49:37.360 --> 1:49:41.160 Like they found a way to like oversimplify the type 1:49:41.200 --> 1:49:44.960 of discourse we're having because everyone's like arguing with such 1:49:45.120 --> 1:49:49.040 simplistic I'm not sure if I'm making sense. It's like 1:49:49.320 --> 1:49:52.000 it's like it's like the term I use is like 1:49:52.120 --> 1:49:56.080 politics as fandom, right, right, And that's why I think 1:49:56.160 --> 1:49:58.840 that like intersect not not exactly what you're saying, but 1:49:59.000 --> 1:50:01.240 like in a next with that type of idea of 1:50:01.400 --> 1:50:06.280 like condensing down actual discussions on like what you believe in, 1:50:07.040 --> 1:50:09.120 um and what politics you want and how you want 1:50:09.160 --> 1:50:11.680 to improve the world into this weird fandom lens of 1:50:11.760 --> 1:50:13.640 like this team versus this team which we we we 1:50:13.840 --> 1:50:15.479 we we we we. We've had a degree of that 1:50:15.560 --> 1:50:18.439 for a long long time. But with the Internet and 1:50:18.520 --> 1:50:21.519 how how discussions on the Internet are designed to work, right, 1:50:21.560 --> 1:50:24.080 how algorithms want to boost content, how there's always these 1:50:24.080 --> 1:50:27.080 short snippets just in mirrors the way people discuss, like 1:50:27.640 --> 1:50:30.000 what Star Wars character is their favorite? It's just that. 1:50:30.240 --> 1:50:35.000 But for politics, um, so it's it's just this, like 1:50:35.160 --> 1:50:37.800 what if politics is just this idea of fandom and 1:50:38.000 --> 1:50:40.599 you can debate what fandom is more valid than the other? Right, 1:50:40.960 --> 1:50:43.640 I like the last Jedi more you like Rise of Skywalker. 1:50:43.920 --> 1:50:46.439 This means your version of reality is less good than mine. 1:50:46.720 --> 1:50:54.760 So which is which is? But that it's that same 1:50:54.840 --> 1:50:58.560 idea but for how we like make social programs and 1:50:58.640 --> 1:51:01.560 how we address racism, how we like give food to 1:51:01.640 --> 1:51:04.400 poor people, and how we do affordable housing, and how 1:51:04.640 --> 1:51:07.360 we handle the police. So it's that type of idea, 1:51:08.680 --> 1:51:13.560 which is just the disinformation kind of impacts this in 1:51:13.680 --> 1:51:17.439 part because when you flood the zone with so much 1:51:17.520 --> 1:51:21.360 conflicting information that people can't really get a handle on 1:51:21.800 --> 1:51:24.519 or easily sort of like when there when when you 1:51:24.840 --> 1:51:28.880 when you've put that much confusion into the air, um, 1:51:29.160 --> 1:51:31.240 it makes people more likely to just kind of grasp 1:51:31.320 --> 1:51:34.920 its sides because everything coming out is way too complicated 1:51:35.000 --> 1:51:37.800 and messy, and it's it takes too much work what's 1:51:37.800 --> 1:51:41.040 actually true. So holding to some lubric of well, I 1:51:41.520 --> 1:51:43.840 believe this, so that means these are the good guys, 1:51:43.920 --> 1:51:46.040 these are the bad guys, and I don't have to 1:51:46.760 --> 1:51:49.520 analyze it any deeper than that I can reject information 1:51:49.600 --> 1:51:52.200 that comes from this group, where I can reject information 1:51:52.280 --> 1:51:57.640 that says this, because I just category categorically reject you know, 1:51:57.800 --> 1:52:01.120 anything that that fits in with that. Like that's the 1:52:01.200 --> 1:52:05.040 benefit of disinformation for authoritarians of all stripes. You're seeing 1:52:05.080 --> 1:52:08.600 in Ukraine right now, where um, you've got all of 1:52:08.680 --> 1:52:12.000 these different authoritarian powers. You've got Turkey, you've got Russia, 1:52:12.040 --> 1:52:15.800 you've got um, you know, sucking the United States at 1:52:15.840 --> 1:52:18.200 least to the extent that like we impact a lot 1:52:18.280 --> 1:52:21.840 of things internationally. Um, and you've got them all coming 1:52:21.880 --> 1:52:25.360 down on different sides of this issue and of what's 1:52:25.400 --> 1:52:29.320 happening in Ukraine. And because there's so much disinformation and 1:52:29.439 --> 1:52:32.639 misinformation about what's going on, people just kind of grasp 1:52:32.720 --> 1:52:37.599 at whatever side I'm have been more sympathetic to recently, 1:52:37.720 --> 1:52:40.639 I'm just going to believe whatever they say because it's 1:52:40.760 --> 1:52:44.479 way too complicated to actually analyze what's going on. Yeah, 1:52:44.520 --> 1:52:46.280 And this was this was the thing that I mean, 1:52:46.360 --> 1:52:48.720 this was explicit on the left. I remember this. There 1:52:48.800 --> 1:52:52.639 was this around um that Sheen. There was a whole 1:52:52.760 --> 1:52:55.320 thing about how like people people like talking about anti 1:52:55.320 --> 1:52:59.479 imperialism would would literally say like nuance nuances liberalism. I 1:52:59.600 --> 1:53:02.639 don't like nuance of liberalism. Don't don't research this, don't 1:53:02.680 --> 1:53:06.080 think about this because nuances how liberals like you know, 1:53:06.360 --> 1:53:08.519 spread sort of pro promishing and change proplicanda, Like I 1:53:08.600 --> 1:53:10.640 remember those people like Ember Frost just just straight up 1:53:10.680 --> 1:53:12.960 said this. And this was a huge and you know, 1:53:13.040 --> 1:53:14.479 like I I got a lot of shift for this 1:53:14.560 --> 1:53:16.920 because you know, like I remember when when when the 1:53:16.960 --> 1:53:19.360 coupon Bolivia happened, Like I I made a giant thread 1:53:19.400 --> 1:53:21.120 that was trying to that was like, okay, we need 1:53:21.160 --> 1:53:24.280 to figure out like how specifically the CIA was involved 1:53:24.320 --> 1:53:26.240 in this, Like okay, so did they plan the whole thing? 1:53:26.479 --> 1:53:28.960 Was it like were they working with local partners? Wasn't 1:53:28.960 --> 1:53:30.599 a thing where someone else planned it and they signed 1:53:30.600 --> 1:53:33.120 off on it? And like to this day people think 1:53:33.160 --> 1:53:35.320 that I supported the coup because I was like, we 1:53:35.320 --> 1:53:37.280 should figure out who was who the actors were in 1:53:37.360 --> 1:53:39.720 the ground, because no one like this, this this, this 1:53:40.000 --> 1:53:43.880 this became like a like like like a tenant, like 1:53:44.080 --> 1:53:47.120 like an actual sort of like political tenants of of 1:53:47.200 --> 1:53:49.439 how a lot of anti impurialism, like in American left 1:53:49.520 --> 1:53:52.639 worked was you you were not supposed to do nuanced 1:53:52.720 --> 1:53:54.760 You were not supposed to look at who was like 1:53:54.840 --> 1:53:56.840 you know if if if you spent too long looking 1:53:56.880 --> 1:53:58.599 at what was going on in the ground, people would 1:53:58.600 --> 1:54:01.680 be like you you worked for the CIA, and that 1:54:02.200 --> 1:54:03.920 you know, I think like we we we've we've finally 1:54:03.960 --> 1:54:06.640 seen that basically blow up in their faces because you know, 1:54:06.760 --> 1:54:08.560 oh hey, look how many of these people just like 1:54:08.640 --> 1:54:12.000 would up supporting Russia and then spent like three months 1:54:12.040 --> 1:54:14.320 saying that Russia would never invade Ukraine, that this happens. 1:54:14.840 --> 1:54:18.400 But it's I don't know, it's it's it's it's extremely 1:54:18.479 --> 1:54:22.200 depressing how people who otherwise are you know, like in 1:54:22.600 --> 1:54:24.200 a lot of ways, like I've spent a lot of 1:54:24.280 --> 1:54:28.799 their time like trying to you know, filter out stuff 1:54:28.840 --> 1:54:31.799 from the media that's false just go into this because 1:54:32.720 --> 1:54:36.320 they just do not want to deal with the complexity 1:54:36.320 --> 1:54:41.440 of reality. Yeah, just easier not to. Again, if there 1:54:41.480 --> 1:54:43.520 was a simple problem, we wouldn't mean, if there was 1:54:43.520 --> 1:54:47.760 a simple solution, we wouldn't need to discuss the problem. Yeah. Yeah, 1:54:47.840 --> 1:54:51.480 So I guess basically, like just to like, um, answer 1:54:51.800 --> 1:54:55.200 that question about how it I guess at the time, 1:54:55.240 --> 1:54:57.440 I'd say, like we got an up close look at 1:54:57.800 --> 1:55:00.240 how things were gonna be, Like you know, with with 1:55:00.600 --> 1:55:04.000 all these things, we we kind of anticipated the next 1:55:04.080 --> 1:55:09.360 few years. Um. So yeah, that's basically what happened. Um, 1:55:10.120 --> 1:55:16.080 sorry to interrupt your clothing, but no, no, no, it's 1:55:16.120 --> 1:55:19.720 the it's the best note that that we can go. Um, Michael, 1:55:19.840 --> 1:55:22.080 do you where can people find you online? And if 1:55:22.120 --> 1:55:24.280 people want to look into some of your other projects, 1:55:25.280 --> 1:55:28.640 I mean you found me, Like, if they want to 1:55:28.680 --> 1:55:30.600 find me, they'll find me, right, I don't know, I 1:55:30.720 --> 1:55:33.360 still don't know you got my email, but Garrison is 1:55:33.400 --> 1:55:36.200 extremely good about this. Tope, not have any people? Are 1:55:36.280 --> 1:55:39.760 that good? Uh? Yeah, well they can check out the 1:55:39.840 --> 1:55:43.400 YouTube channel like I'm gonna be posting some new films 1:55:43.600 --> 1:55:47.080 this year probably, um so my name Michael Lock. Canna 1:55:47.080 --> 1:55:51.280 allow or just search the issarians there. Well, I guess 1:55:51.320 --> 1:55:55.280 that's a way. Yeah yeah, I'll add your YouTube channel 1:55:55.400 --> 1:55:58.000 to to the description. Yeah. I just want to thank 1:55:58.040 --> 1:56:01.000 you so much for coming on to talk about your 1:56:01.720 --> 1:56:05.600 your project. Yeah, thanks for having me. All right, Well, 1:56:06.040 --> 1:56:08.960 that that does it for us today. You can follow 1:56:09.240 --> 1:56:12.919 us on the internets for some reason, um on Twitter, Instagram, 1:56:12.960 --> 1:56:15.960 that happened here, pod and cool some media and yeah, 1:56:16.760 --> 1:56:21.240 go go create a myth that people will believe and 1:56:21.360 --> 1:56:24.600 travel from out of country to walk over some stairs. 1:56:24.680 --> 1:56:26.400 Because that sounds like fun. Go to something like that 1:56:27.240 --> 1:56:39.320 for fun funzies. All right, bye bye, Hey everyone, It's 1:56:39.360 --> 1:56:43.040 Bobby Brown. You might know me as the makeup artist 1:56:43.080 --> 1:56:45.960 beauty expert. You might also know me as the founder 1:56:46.000 --> 1:56:49.360 of Jones Road Beauty. But today I'm here with a 1:56:49.520 --> 1:56:53.720 brand new podcast, The Important Things. On this new podcast, 1:56:53.840 --> 1:56:56.440 I'll be joined by my co host and dear friend 1:56:56.760 --> 1:57:01.520 International Best selling author, Attorney and Ted Talk along a 1:57:01.760 --> 1:57:06.120 Julie Kumar. Together we want to answer the question how 1:57:06.240 --> 1:57:10.000 can you lead a life of fulfillment? The ongoing pandemic 1:57:10.080 --> 1:57:13.400 has given us all the opportunity to examine what really 1:57:13.520 --> 1:57:16.480 matters most to us and what brings us true contentment. 1:57:17.280 --> 1:57:21.400 Each week through candid conversations with friends, thought leaders, creators 1:57:21.440 --> 1:57:24.400 and entrepreneurs, Bobby and I are looking for ways we 1:57:24.480 --> 1:57:28.840 can all learn to live more authentic, gratifying lives. You 1:57:28.960 --> 1:57:32.280 can look forward to learning from our amazing guests, including 1:57:32.320 --> 1:57:37.480 the incomparable Gloria Steinum, entrepreneur and designer, Jennifer Fisher, senator 1:57:37.600 --> 1:57:42.400 Corey Booker, charity founder Christy Turlington Burns, and many many more. 1:57:42.920 --> 1:57:45.600 So join us every other week as we dig deep 1:57:45.640 --> 1:57:49.080 into the stuff that really matters on the important things. 1:57:50.040 --> 1:57:52.800 Listen to the important things on the I Heart radio app, 1:57:52.920 --> 1:57:59.040 Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What grows 1:57:59.080 --> 1:58:02.560 in the forest trees, sure know what else? Girls in 1:58:02.640 --> 1:58:06.440 the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our 1:58:06.520 --> 1:58:09.640 family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this 1:58:12.240 --> 1:58:16.840 and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The 1:58:16.960 --> 1:58:19.960 forest is closer than you think, find a forest near 1:58:20.040 --> 1:58:23.240 you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot Org. 1:58:23.600 --> 1:58:26.120 Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and 1:58:26.240 --> 1:58:31.200 the AD Council. M Hi, I'm Elizabeth Dutton and I'm 1:58:31.280 --> 1:58:34.920 Elizabeth Dutton. Wait sorry, do you want to see your name? No, 1:58:35.000 --> 1:58:37.520 I'm good, good, go ahead. We're the hosts of Ridiculous Crime. 1:58:37.840 --> 1:58:41.120 People love true crime, right, the mystery, the intrigue, the 1:58:41.240 --> 1:58:44.040 human frailty totally. But what a lot of us don't 1:58:44.120 --> 1:58:46.080 like is the blood and the guts and the mayhem. 1:58:46.240 --> 1:58:48.960 Wait wait, wait, wait, some of us do like the mayhem. Okay, 1:58:49.160 --> 1:58:52.760 but let's be real, there's nothing funny about murder. Our 1:58:52.840 --> 1:58:56.240 show gives you stories like the kidnapping of Frank Sinatra Jr. 1:58:56.600 --> 1:58:59.400 And the Max Headroom signal hijacking. Oh so you mean 1:58:59.560 --> 1:59:03.520 ridiculous stories like the UK cat Shaver and Pablo Escobar's 1:59:03.560 --> 1:59:06.800 cocaine hippos. Yeah, stories like the dudes who stole Buzzy, 1:59:06.840 --> 1:59:09.560 the animatronic whatever he was from Disney World and the 1:59:09.600 --> 1:59:11.560 woman whose husband tried to kill her but came back 1:59:11.600 --> 1:59:14.360 from the dead and surprised him at her own funeral. Yeah, 1:59:14.400 --> 1:59:16.680 that does sound good. You can find this new podcast 1:59:16.920 --> 1:59:20.520 Ridiculous Crime all over the place, the I Heart Radio app, 1:59:20.600 --> 1:59:23.360 the Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I 1:59:23.400 --> 1:59:36.120 don't know how you live ridiculous Crime. It could happen here. Uh, 1:59:36.360 --> 1:59:39.080 it being a number of things. Uh. This is the 1:59:39.120 --> 1:59:42.240 podcast about things falling apart and also maybe putting them 1:59:42.280 --> 1:59:45.560 back together. And assuming there is not a nuclear war 1:59:45.720 --> 1:59:47.920 in the immediate future, you will probably be hearing this 1:59:48.040 --> 1:59:52.160 episode sometime in early March. I am Robert Evans. My 1:59:52.320 --> 1:59:56.360 co hosts as always well as often Chris and Garrison, 1:59:56.760 --> 1:59:58.560 and that's that's my job for the day. Done. I'm 1:59:58.560 --> 2:00:00.520 gonna I'm gonna sit back and chill. You guys want 2:00:00.520 --> 2:00:02.560 to take it from here, Yeah, I'll take it from here. 2:00:02.680 --> 2:00:05.720 We are doing one of our perennial things fall apart 2:00:05.800 --> 2:00:08.200 but also we sort of put it back together again episodes. 2:00:08.360 --> 2:00:13.120 And joining us today is j MC from Strange Matter 2:00:13.240 --> 2:00:17.640 is a new libertarian, socialist cooperative magazine. J MC, great 2:00:17.640 --> 2:00:21.200 to have you here. Yeah, this is really great. So 2:00:22.360 --> 2:00:24.320 I guess we should probably explain what the magazine is, 2:00:25.400 --> 2:00:27.440 not just in of itself, but also because it's a 2:00:27.440 --> 2:00:31.600 good lead in into um um into what we're gonna 2:00:31.600 --> 2:00:34.840 be talking about so we basically there's five of us 2:00:34.920 --> 2:00:37.560 as co editors and we're all equal worker owners in it. 2:00:38.000 --> 2:00:41.920 It's a magazine called Strange Matters, and the point of 2:00:42.000 --> 2:00:45.800 it is to explore radical new ideas, not just in 2:00:46.080 --> 2:00:48.160 terms of politics and economics, which is going to be 2:00:48.240 --> 2:00:50.400 kind of half the focus is trying to figure out 2:00:50.720 --> 2:00:53.600 like you know, libertarian socialists talk a lot about dual power, 2:00:53.720 --> 2:00:55.480 which I know y'all talk about on the show a 2:00:55.560 --> 2:00:59.560 lot talk about building independent institutions under the direct democratic 2:00:59.560 --> 2:01:01.920 control the working class to control real resources and are 2:01:01.960 --> 2:01:04.640 not the state or capitalist firms. But like we talk 2:01:04.680 --> 2:01:06.080 a big game, but we actually know how to do 2:01:06.240 --> 2:01:08.040 that stuff, And do we know how to do stuff 2:01:08.080 --> 2:01:10.560 like run like you know, a big company as a 2:01:11.440 --> 2:01:13.360 as a self managed democracy, or do we know how 2:01:13.400 --> 2:01:15.440 to like run a city as a as a radical 2:01:15.480 --> 2:01:18.000 democracy like rooted in neighborhood councils or anything like that. 2:01:18.240 --> 2:01:20.560 The answer kind of is not really. And there's a 2:01:20.640 --> 2:01:23.840 lot of like, um open questions that we don't know 2:01:24.320 --> 2:01:26.640 yet the answers to, and that very few people are 2:01:26.640 --> 2:01:30.360 working on those answers. So Strange Matters is um partly 2:01:30.440 --> 2:01:34.360 about discovering, uh, those answers, not because we the editors 2:01:34.400 --> 2:01:36.160 have the answers, but because we need like some kind 2:01:36.160 --> 2:01:38.600 of space within which we can bring lots of different people, 2:01:38.720 --> 2:01:41.760 different life experiences together, uh, in order to talk about 2:01:41.760 --> 2:01:44.640 the stuff and figure it out. And then the other 2:01:44.720 --> 2:01:46.360 mission of it is to be a kind of general 2:01:46.440 --> 2:01:49.920 interest literary intellectual magazine doing the kind of journalism and 2:01:50.000 --> 2:01:53.000 philosophy and poetry and memoir and stuff like that that 2:01:53.320 --> 2:01:58.680 uh that uh perhaps gets shut out of capitalist society 2:01:58.760 --> 2:02:01.480 because it's not commercial, older because it's too weird, because 2:02:01.560 --> 2:02:04.720 it's like, I don't know, historiographical essay about it's been 2:02:04.760 --> 2:02:06.680 called doon or something like that, you know. And and 2:02:06.760 --> 2:02:08.600 we think that there should be a place for that, um, 2:02:08.960 --> 2:02:13.040 just because it brings delight and meaning into people's lives, 2:02:13.080 --> 2:02:15.720 and it's what we're fighting for a more democratic society 2:02:15.760 --> 2:02:18.200 in order to do so. That's basically our vibe UM. 2:02:19.080 --> 2:02:22.000 And the essaying question is a collective editorial that we uh, 2:02:22.200 --> 2:02:25.720 that we collectively drafted and edited uh, talking about our 2:02:25.800 --> 2:02:29.360 political views in particular and the recent history of libertarian 2:02:29.400 --> 2:02:34.280 socialism UM and then asked for me, I'm I'm a 2:02:34.320 --> 2:02:36.400 writer who's written for a couple of other places like 2:02:37.280 --> 2:02:40.000 the point in the Brooklyn rail Um. And I also 2:02:40.240 --> 2:02:43.520 was involved in the d S as Libertarian Socialist Caucus 2:02:43.840 --> 2:02:51.360 and also the yeah yeah right, yeah, but a lot 2:02:51.440 --> 2:02:56.080 of history there, trauma, you know, some some uh yeah, 2:02:56.400 --> 2:02:59.840 but any who uh and also the Symbiosis Federation UM, 2:03:00.120 --> 2:03:04.280 which is a federation across Mexico, the US, and Canada 2:03:04.640 --> 2:03:07.160 that is trying to put together. It's a it's a 2:03:07.160 --> 2:03:10.160 confederation of local organizations that are trying to do this 2:03:10.240 --> 2:03:13.680 kind of direct democracy stuff. Yeah. So I guess, well, okay, 2:03:13.720 --> 2:03:17.000 so the pandemic isn't I guess the perfect jumping in 2:03:17.080 --> 2:03:20.280 point for this. But I wanna go back and I 2:03:20.280 --> 2:03:22.480 guess getting into the meat of this piece because I 2:03:22.480 --> 2:03:24.680 think it's very interesting. I wanted to sort of talk 2:03:24.720 --> 2:03:27.480 about the origins of like what's called sort of neo 2:03:27.520 --> 2:03:32.920 anarchism and how it's sort of begin to decay after 2:03:33.920 --> 2:03:37.560 after the collapse of occupying after well, I guess the 2:03:37.880 --> 2:03:39.960 sort the sort of kind of revolutionary arc of the 2:03:40.040 --> 2:03:45.600 two tens, so basically before you do the decline at 2:03:45.640 --> 2:03:47.120 least is the way that we wrote it. And I 2:03:47.240 --> 2:03:48.880 kind of think that it's the way that I would 2:03:48.920 --> 2:03:51.160 tell it Um, you have to kind of do the 2:03:51.320 --> 2:03:57.040 rise first, right, because like there was this moment from 2:03:57.880 --> 2:04:04.600 roughly the fall of the Soviets in two roughly like 2:04:05.440 --> 2:04:09.960 two thousand and even kind of lingering in an afterlife afterwards, 2:04:10.240 --> 2:04:12.520 where it kind of looked like anarchism was going to 2:04:12.560 --> 2:04:14.520 take over the world. And that's a bit of a joke. 2:04:14.720 --> 2:04:17.320 But it's also not a joke because in the context 2:04:17.400 --> 2:04:19.919 of like the radical left, which is of course obviously 2:04:20.040 --> 2:04:22.840 a kind of like you know, dissidents seen in any 2:04:22.880 --> 2:04:27.680 country where it happens to exist. Um, you know, everything 2:04:27.880 --> 2:04:31.560 receded in terms of the traditional parties because the fall 2:04:31.680 --> 2:04:36.320 of the Soviet style uh Leninists states uh either through 2:04:36.360 --> 2:04:39.680 their collapse as in the case of the USSR, or 2:04:39.760 --> 2:04:42.760 in the case of their transition to a much more 2:04:42.880 --> 2:04:47.240 like clearly and obviously like state capitalist, uh semi liberalized 2:04:47.880 --> 2:04:53.160 model like in China, like the you you basically had 2:04:53.320 --> 2:04:57.120 like this total recession, not just in Leninism interestingly, which 2:04:57.320 --> 2:04:59.320 obviously enough, right, like you know, it's basically a global 2:04:59.360 --> 2:05:02.560 collapse of anist style of governments, but also in like 2:05:02.840 --> 2:05:06.720 social democracy. Um, because it's a lot of the I mean, 2:05:06.760 --> 2:05:09.680 it's actually kind of interesting why it's it's unclear why 2:05:09.760 --> 2:05:13.160 it is. Uh, people have different theories, but they're you know, 2:05:13.280 --> 2:05:16.480 people often describe it in in um you know Fisher's 2:05:16.680 --> 2:05:21.320 term the writer Mark Fisher capitalist realism. The attitude in 2:05:21.360 --> 2:05:25.520 the nineties was that, uh, you know, there's there's only 2:05:25.640 --> 2:05:27.600 one world that's possible, and it's the best of all 2:05:27.680 --> 2:05:30.480 possible worlds, and that's the capitalist world, where everybody's gonna 2:05:30.480 --> 2:05:32.720 have McDonald's in every country, and two countries that have 2:05:32.920 --> 2:05:34.560 the same McDonald's are never going to go to war, 2:05:34.960 --> 2:05:37.480 which we kind of found out the hard way this 2:05:37.560 --> 2:05:40.960 week that that's not really the case. Well, and if 2:05:41.040 --> 2:05:44.200 people had paid attention more to other parts of the world, 2:05:44.240 --> 2:05:46.160 they would know that, like, well, there were civil wars 2:05:46.160 --> 2:05:48.040 in a bunch of countries that had McDonald's. Is it 2:05:48.080 --> 2:05:52.800 didn't stop people from shooting each other, as as the 2:05:52.920 --> 2:05:55.480 United States should tell you, people will kill each other 2:05:55.600 --> 2:05:58.400 whether or not they have access to chicken McNuggets. Yeah, 2:05:58.640 --> 2:05:59.880 you know, I mean I think like that. That's that's 2:05:59.880 --> 2:06:02.320 a period that has it's full of the most wrong 2:06:02.440 --> 2:06:05.560 anyone has ever been, Like you got your Frantis Fukiyama, 2:06:05.680 --> 2:06:09.760 like the most wrong person ever You've got Yeah, you've 2:06:09.760 --> 2:06:13.280 you've got a lot of sertif idealogues, you like, have 2:06:13.400 --> 2:06:15.600 sort of deluded themselves into thinking this stuff is over 2:06:15.840 --> 2:06:18.200 and yeah, and I think you're right that that that 2:06:18.280 --> 2:06:21.320 sort of plays into this, you know, into sort of 2:06:21.360 --> 2:06:25.600 the collapse of of I guess, the party state left, 2:06:25.840 --> 2:06:29.360 and then the way in which that, you know, the 2:06:29.560 --> 2:06:34.000 alternative to that I guess becomes new anarchism, and anarchists practice, 2:06:34.040 --> 2:06:36.160 even if it's not necessarily ideology with all the groups, 2:06:36.320 --> 2:06:38.840 kind of seeps its way into the rest of the 2:06:38.840 --> 2:06:44.160 activist scene. Yeah. So basically the story that we tell 2:06:44.400 --> 2:06:47.520 is that there's some you know, the stuff of East 2:06:47.560 --> 2:06:51.840 and rebellion in triggers these h It's not just that 2:06:52.040 --> 2:06:53.360 the stuff of East is are able to create their 2:06:53.360 --> 2:06:56.440 autonomous territory and chap us, but they it triggers this 2:06:57.000 --> 2:07:00.680 wave U that UM. We use such term that sometimes 2:07:00.720 --> 2:07:04.320 it's used in academia called neo anarchism for this UM. 2:07:04.640 --> 2:07:08.000 You know, there's an anarchist revival in the nineties UM 2:07:08.440 --> 2:07:12.280 around the world, and it's not just people calling themselves anarchists. 2:07:12.280 --> 2:07:15.800 It's all these movements that were inspired by the libertarian 2:07:15.960 --> 2:07:21.320 socialist broadly speaking, um sabathistas UM adopting kind of similar 2:07:21.400 --> 2:07:25.320 methods in their local contexts in different countries, fighting against 2:07:25.760 --> 2:07:28.320 I mean a lot of things. Initially it's against like 2:07:28.560 --> 2:07:31.320 you know, neoliberal trade deals, but it also ends up 2:07:31.320 --> 2:07:33.680 being against like sweatshops, because that's basically what a lot 2:07:33.720 --> 2:07:36.080 of outsourcing is is. You know, if if they have 2:07:36.280 --> 2:07:38.840 unions in this country from a social democratic period, they 2:07:38.920 --> 2:07:41.320 shut down the factory fire, everybody moved it to someplace 2:07:41.400 --> 2:07:44.000 where some dictatorship is going to shoot anybody who tries 2:07:44.040 --> 2:07:46.560 to do a union. Uh, and then that you know 2:07:46.800 --> 2:07:50.920 that that lowers Uh. Logistics has gotten sophisticated enough by 2:07:50.960 --> 2:07:53.080 this point that you know, it ends up being cheaper 2:07:53.120 --> 2:07:54.880 for the company, even though they have to transport goods 2:07:54.920 --> 2:07:56.880 all across the world and do just in time delivering 2:07:56.960 --> 2:08:01.280 that kind of thing. So UM. The a lot of 2:08:01.440 --> 2:08:05.280 the the the anti globalization movement that sprouted up around 2:08:05.880 --> 2:08:09.920 the two thousands was like UM, against all these things 2:08:10.120 --> 2:08:13.520 and usually using the kinds of direct actions, which is 2:08:13.560 --> 2:08:16.080 when you act kind of independent of the state and 2:08:16.160 --> 2:08:19.640 not trying to like, you know, convince politician to do something, 2:08:19.760 --> 2:08:23.680 but taking direct action to get your results, your desired result. UM. 2:08:24.080 --> 2:08:26.400 You know, and all this kind of stuff uh that 2:08:26.520 --> 2:08:30.520 we're at using like direct democratic consensus methods. Uh. In 2:08:30.640 --> 2:08:34.040 the way that they organized stuff, uh, that was that 2:08:34.200 --> 2:08:36.320 was all basically an artistic And so there was this 2:08:36.440 --> 2:08:40.720 way in which anarchist methods, anarchist tactics, anarchists like attitudes 2:08:40.760 --> 2:08:44.600 towards what activism even is, started filtering into all these 2:08:44.680 --> 2:08:46.640 other movements. And this has been happening a little bit 2:08:46.640 --> 2:08:48.320 the eighties too. So there was like the anti nuclear 2:08:48.360 --> 2:08:51.280 movement had a lot of this, the feminist movement had 2:08:51.280 --> 2:08:54.360 a lot of this. Um there was a whole um 2:08:55.000 --> 2:08:58.720 stream of single other ecological movements were actually like pioneered 2:08:58.960 --> 2:09:00.880 in a lot of ways by anarchists in the nineties 2:09:01.280 --> 2:09:05.280 um so, as well as indigenous movements in places like Mexico, Believia, etcetera. 2:09:05.680 --> 2:09:09.520 So the this is the kind of like rise of 2:09:09.640 --> 2:09:11.800 this neo anarchist movie you that we're talking about, which 2:09:11.880 --> 2:09:16.160 is not just about anarchists, it's about people who act 2:09:16.280 --> 2:09:20.600 and think like anarchists without necessarily identifying as it. Yeah, 2:09:20.640 --> 2:09:22.640 I mean that's the kind of thing that I hope 2:09:22.680 --> 2:09:24.280 we can kind of more encourage as well in the 2:09:24.400 --> 2:09:30.000 next few decades as those typicode ideas can be I 2:09:30.040 --> 2:09:31.800 want I want to make sure that we can take 2:09:31.880 --> 2:09:34.440 these ideas and make them very approable for people, even 2:09:34.480 --> 2:09:37.120 if they don't use the terms that we might use. 2:09:37.720 --> 2:09:42.720 You can still kind of suggest these types of thoughts. 2:09:42.920 --> 2:09:45.760 And this suggests these types of kind of lenses and 2:09:45.840 --> 2:09:48.280 viewpoints as much as we're about to get to how 2:09:48.320 --> 2:09:51.560 this sort of goes wrong or fails in some sense, Like, 2:09:51.640 --> 2:09:53.840 I think that was the strength of this movement was 2:09:53.920 --> 2:10:01.040 that it was it's tactics really easy to spread, and 2:10:01.480 --> 2:10:02.960 that led to a lot of people adopting me. It 2:10:03.080 --> 2:10:07.360 led to it sort of becoming this I guess activist 2:10:07.400 --> 2:10:09.840 consensus that you know, like you used in the consensus process. 2:10:09.920 --> 2:10:13.080 You you know, you have horzontal organizations, you have you 2:10:13.160 --> 2:10:15.800 do direct actions, you mobilize people. You don't have these 2:10:15.840 --> 2:10:19.960 sort of like particle like parties. But that yeah, And 2:10:19.960 --> 2:10:22.040 I think I think the next part of the story 2:10:22.120 --> 2:10:24.360 that you want to tell is about I guess how 2:10:24.440 --> 2:10:30.120 that fell apart and the consequences of that. Basically what 2:10:30.320 --> 2:10:35.080 ends up happening is that, like there was this moment 2:10:35.720 --> 2:10:39.480 of our ascent because I would identify myself as being 2:10:40.040 --> 2:10:43.680 definitely like part of these, uh, the this generalan of you. 2:10:43.800 --> 2:10:45.480 I mean I came, I hopped to board a lot 2:10:45.560 --> 2:10:47.600 later with like Occupy Wall Street, but a lot of 2:10:47.680 --> 2:10:50.920 the kind of explosion of movements that happened around the 2:10:50.920 --> 2:10:53.480 world in again not always right. It started with the 2:10:53.520 --> 2:10:56.080 Arab Spring, which started with somebody seeing themselves on fire 2:10:56.120 --> 2:10:58.560 in Tunisia and like you know, and then that spreads 2:10:58.600 --> 2:11:01.600 to um a, their countries in the Middle East and um, 2:11:02.240 --> 2:11:04.880 you know, protest against dictatorships and so on. But it 2:11:05.000 --> 2:11:08.720 starts getting kind of like transported beyond its initial Middle 2:11:08.760 --> 2:11:10.440 Eastern context. And what a lot of people don't know 2:11:10.760 --> 2:11:14.880 is that the uh, the Occupy Wall Street movement in 2:11:15.440 --> 2:11:19.000 North America, uh, and like other movements that you know, 2:11:19.080 --> 2:11:21.160 some of them were called occupy some of them, I'm 2:11:21.200 --> 2:11:23.240 one of them was Maidan in Ukraine as a matter 2:11:23.240 --> 2:11:26.320 of fact, um, and other like you know, the the 2:11:26.440 --> 2:11:31.160 Hong Kong, the the the umbrella movements, yeah, the and 2:11:31.280 --> 2:11:33.800 all these kind of movements that that proceeded from after 2:11:35.120 --> 2:11:38.200 a lot of them were basically in a single kind 2:11:38.240 --> 2:11:42.280 of wave, a protracted wave of copycat movements, uh that 2:11:42.400 --> 2:11:44.520 we're trying to adopt the same kind of tactics of 2:11:44.600 --> 2:11:48.600 like occupying public squares, uh, declaring them basically autonomous, and 2:11:48.840 --> 2:11:51.320 doing like direct democracy in those squares, modeling the kind 2:11:51.320 --> 2:11:54.160 of society that they that people wanted to create. Um, 2:11:55.160 --> 2:11:57.040 you know, in this moment where it seemed like you 2:11:57.120 --> 2:12:02.600 could have this direct democratic uh sorts of movements the 2:12:03.280 --> 2:12:05.480 end in the US, there's like a direct line of 2:12:05.520 --> 2:12:08.280 succession from like occupy Wall Street through to like Black 2:12:08.320 --> 2:12:12.320 Lives Matter through to like the anti pipeline Indigenous protests. 2:12:12.320 --> 2:12:15.080 There's a lot of like shared movement experience, a lot 2:12:15.160 --> 2:12:17.320 of the same people showing up to it or teaching 2:12:17.400 --> 2:12:20.680 the next generation UM in those movements. And I think 2:12:20.720 --> 2:12:23.680 this is something I mean, uh, it's difficult to find 2:12:23.760 --> 2:12:26.080 like sources on this, but I mean, y'all are involved 2:12:26.120 --> 2:12:28.120 in social movements. I think that that's like a rough 2:12:28.720 --> 2:12:32.120 that's roughly a description of of what's happened, right unless 2:12:32.240 --> 2:12:36.720 unless we're crazy. Yeah, I think you know what I think, 2:12:38.680 --> 2:12:40.240 I guess what you call the last wave that is 2:12:40.280 --> 2:12:45.520 occupied ice in Yeah. Yeah, you know, like I remember, 2:12:45.560 --> 2:12:47.360 like that was a sort of mix of I guess 2:12:48.240 --> 2:12:50.640 two crowds. One is you know, I mean, like I 2:12:50.920 --> 2:12:53.000 I remember it was a bunch of you know, people 2:12:53.000 --> 2:12:55.360 who'd been in occupy and then also it was a 2:12:55.400 --> 2:12:58.840 lot of people who radicalized essentially about Trump. Yeah, there 2:12:58.920 --> 2:13:01.960 was there was a pretty big new way of people, yeah, 2:13:02.000 --> 2:13:05.280 around around til sixteen and that you know, And I 2:13:05.600 --> 2:13:07.960 guess the other thing that that that's going on through 2:13:08.040 --> 2:13:14.720 this period is the the the ascension of consension of 2:13:14.760 --> 2:13:18.440 the right and the return also not just of you know, 2:13:18.520 --> 2:13:21.240 not just a sort of the fascist right, but of 2:13:21.600 --> 2:13:26.440 Leninism and social democracy as well. Um. Lapped around like 2:13:26.600 --> 2:13:28.960 when Bernie's Hands was getting more popular. Yeah, yeah, and 2:13:29.160 --> 2:13:30.600 I think I think I think there's there's you know, 2:13:30.680 --> 2:13:32.280 there's a couple of there's like two threats here. There 2:13:32.320 --> 2:13:35.839 there's the sort of Bernie Sanders thread, and then there's 2:13:36.400 --> 2:13:38.600 you know, the the rise of the rise of the tankies, 2:13:38.720 --> 2:13:41.320 which has to do with Syria and has to do 2:13:41.440 --> 2:13:45.600 with sort of this backlash against the Just and eleven 2:13:45.640 --> 2:13:48.440 revolutions that you know, like some some of that backlash 2:13:48.480 --> 2:13:51.920 turns into like just you know, like air to one's 2:13:52.000 --> 2:13:56.000 like hard right. I mean there's never like not a 2:13:56.120 --> 2:13:58.040 right wing, but like air to wants turn into just 2:13:58.080 --> 2:14:05.120 like fire bombing cities and um, and the living barrel bombing, 2:14:05.280 --> 2:14:09.760 you know, peaceful protests stuff. Um can overthrow governments if 2:14:10.280 --> 2:14:13.440 the government is not willing to bomb and shoot people 2:14:14.320 --> 2:14:16.800 who gather on mass in the central square because they're 2:14:16.920 --> 2:14:19.280 afraid of what the world's response would be if they 2:14:19.280 --> 2:14:22.120 did start doing that. But you know, when Bashar Alasad 2:14:22.160 --> 2:14:25.120 did that in Syria against the democratic opposition movements, Um, 2:14:26.000 --> 2:14:29.720 you know, that basically sent the signal nothing, I mean 2:14:29.800 --> 2:14:32.320 nothing happened to us side, right, So that basically sent 2:14:32.400 --> 2:14:36.800 the signal that like, oh he has but yeah, yeah, 2:14:37.160 --> 2:14:40.480 right right, yeah, like like you can you can just 2:14:40.920 --> 2:14:43.920 shoot people and bomb them and like it. And that 2:14:44.480 --> 2:14:48.200 basically defanged the kind of central tactic that a lot 2:14:48.240 --> 2:14:49.760 of these movements were trying to do, which is to 2:14:49.840 --> 2:14:53.400 have like large numbers of people do nonviolent civil disobedience 2:14:53.440 --> 2:14:56.720 and then through those like direct actions, cultivate this culture 2:14:56.760 --> 2:15:00.200 of like direct democracy in the hopes that, um, you know, 2:15:00.240 --> 2:15:02.240 the assemblies that are created in that space could in 2:15:02.360 --> 2:15:04.640 some way become the germ of the organs that could 2:15:04.680 --> 2:15:06.480 run society, or at least that's like when it's taken 2:15:06.520 --> 2:15:09.280 to its logical conclusion. Because usually people who are involved 2:15:09.320 --> 2:15:10.960 in this, they get involved in it. They think the 2:15:11.000 --> 2:15:14.160 assembly stuff is really cool, they start learning more about it. 2:15:14.320 --> 2:15:17.040 They get radicalized by being in the assembly because like 2:15:17.080 --> 2:15:19.480 when you're in a direct democratic assembling, you're actually making 2:15:19.600 --> 2:15:21.880 the decisions like together, and then you come to an 2:15:21.920 --> 2:15:24.640 agreement and you execute the decision. You start asking yourself 2:15:24.680 --> 2:15:28.400 like why can't we do everything like this? Um? And 2:15:28.640 --> 2:15:31.640 then um, you know all that that's what directs a 2:15:31.720 --> 2:15:35.160 lot of people in this kind of anarchistic direction. But yeah, 2:15:35.280 --> 2:15:37.240 one of the reasons why these movements starts to decline 2:15:37.360 --> 2:15:41.920 is because they get smashed, um the But I think 2:15:41.960 --> 2:15:46.760 that there's always this other thing going on, which and 2:15:46.800 --> 2:15:49.920 I wonder how y'all felt about this, like reading it, 2:15:50.200 --> 2:15:56.080 like you know, there's there was this kind of both 2:15:56.240 --> 2:15:59.520 like an external critique at first from people like you know, 2:15:59.600 --> 2:16:02.320 Bascar Syncer of Jacobin and things like that, but then 2:16:02.400 --> 2:16:06.160 also like this, increasingly over the years in the last 2:16:06.640 --> 2:16:11.800 half of the internal critiques of anarchism coming from anarchists themselves. 2:16:12.160 --> 2:16:15.080 Are people in this general kind of milieu libertarian socialism 2:16:15.840 --> 2:16:21.880 talking about how like anarchists didn't have solutions to the 2:16:21.960 --> 2:16:24.920 most pressing crises in the twenty century, Like if you 2:16:25.240 --> 2:16:27.360 like if you guys had to say, I know it's 2:16:27.360 --> 2:16:29.280 like kind of pretentious, but like, what is the most 2:16:29.360 --> 2:16:31.640 pressing crisis of the century? What are like the top 2:16:31.720 --> 2:16:33.880 three just off the top of your heads without thinking? 2:16:34.080 --> 2:16:35.680 What would you list if you have to list three 2:16:35.840 --> 2:16:40.600 two or three separate things? Climate change, creeping authoritarianism, and 2:16:41.120 --> 2:16:46.000 rampant disinformation about basic facts of reality. Sweet? Okay, so 2:16:46.080 --> 2:16:50.879 let's tackle each one of those, right, Like, what's what's 2:16:51.080 --> 2:16:53.760 an anarchist got to say about climate change? Well, okay, 2:16:53.879 --> 2:16:58.200 disrupt the pipelines, like you know, do uh, Like, you 2:16:58.240 --> 2:17:00.240 can't have infinite growth on a finite plan it, so 2:17:00.320 --> 2:17:02.080 you have to have like, you know, we we have 2:17:02.160 --> 2:17:03.920 all the slogans, right, I mean we've all heard them 2:17:03.959 --> 2:17:06.280 like a million times. Yeah, you have the diagnoses of 2:17:06.360 --> 2:17:09.680 the problem. But yeah, yeah, but then like, okay, so 2:17:09.879 --> 2:17:13.440 how are we going to like you know, I guess 2:17:13.440 --> 2:17:15.800 we're gonna build some co ops and then the co 2:17:16.000 --> 2:17:19.520 ops are gonna democratized production and then we can do 2:17:19.680 --> 2:17:24.480 d growth somehow, but like also disrupting existing production. But 2:17:24.560 --> 2:17:27.000 there's like a missing step here, right, because like you know, 2:17:27.120 --> 2:17:29.039 the reason why we have all this production in certain 2:17:29.080 --> 2:17:31.680 ways because the entire economy depends on it's been set 2:17:31.760 --> 2:17:35.720 up that way. Uh So you implied in the idea 2:17:35.760 --> 2:17:37.200 that we're going to do de growth somehow, is that 2:17:37.280 --> 2:17:39.920 we need some way of constructing a different economy. And 2:17:40.000 --> 2:17:42.200 how do you construct a different economy right through some 2:17:42.360 --> 2:17:45.320 kind of planning? So really the question is like how 2:17:45.360 --> 2:17:49.160 do you do economic planning? Uh? Second one, um, I 2:17:49.240 --> 2:17:51.800 goin to skip creeping authoritarianism for now because that's actually 2:17:51.920 --> 2:17:53.879 like feeding into the more the ending of the essay. 2:17:53.959 --> 2:17:57.480 But the but the other one, right, disinformation? Another great question, right, 2:17:57.840 --> 2:18:02.279 like what do you do with social media? Like? Okay, again, 2:18:02.480 --> 2:18:05.480 anarchists talked in general a lot about like, okay, we're 2:18:05.520 --> 2:18:09.240 going to democratize all the companies because we're democratizing everything. 2:18:09.280 --> 2:18:12.120 We're democratizing neighborhoods or democratizing cities. So it's kind of 2:18:12.200 --> 2:18:15.879 the same thing, turning everything into like a radical direct democracy. Okay, 2:18:17.040 --> 2:18:20.280 But if we're going to have social media, first of all, 2:18:20.320 --> 2:18:22.640 should we like, was it a mistake to invent a 2:18:22.760 --> 2:18:26.520 centralized system instead of the more decentralized internet that created 2:18:26.600 --> 2:18:29.040 that existed before social media? Right, that's kind of an 2:18:29.200 --> 2:18:32.880 interesting question. But then assuming that we do how do 2:18:33.000 --> 2:18:35.600 we restructure it? Not just in terms of how it's managed, 2:18:35.640 --> 2:18:38.000 but like, okay, we have the democracy of Facebook or whatever, 2:18:38.320 --> 2:18:41.120 and let's say that we're the workers at Facebook. What 2:18:41.200 --> 2:18:43.840 do we do, like, how do we structure it so 2:18:43.959 --> 2:18:48.440 that it's not a giant misinformation engine? Right? Like once, 2:18:48.600 --> 2:18:51.280 once you actually have like the responsibility and the power 2:18:51.320 --> 2:18:52.959 of being in the saddle, which is what we spend 2:18:53.000 --> 2:18:54.680 so much of our time kind of just trying to do. 2:18:55.240 --> 2:18:57.000 You have to actually make decisions about what to do. 2:18:57.480 --> 2:19:00.160 And honestly, there aren't that many. I mean, do you 2:19:00.280 --> 2:19:02.400 what do you do with with the within with the 2:19:02.480 --> 2:19:05.640 utility like that? Like, for example, who ought to be 2:19:05.760 --> 2:19:07.680 in control of the utility? Like that? Is it really 2:19:07.800 --> 2:19:10.920 just the workers of Facebook? Aren't all the people who 2:19:10.959 --> 2:19:12.880 are users of it? Don't they have a right to 2:19:13.000 --> 2:19:16.520 be making decisions about it too? And is it just 2:19:16.600 --> 2:19:19.640 an American institution just because it's an American LLC? Or 2:19:19.760 --> 2:19:21.840 is it like a global institution because everybody on the 2:19:21.879 --> 2:19:26.720 planets on it? Um is there? You know? Are o 2:19:26.800 --> 2:19:29.080 there ways that it could be reconfigured, like fundamentally in 2:19:29.240 --> 2:19:32.000 terms of how users use it that would change the 2:19:32.080 --> 2:19:35.119 experience in some way to actually make it, uh, make 2:19:35.200 --> 2:19:37.480 you less liable to misinformation. But on the other hand, 2:19:37.480 --> 2:19:40.360 if you try to manipulate people in order to um, 2:19:40.920 --> 2:19:44.080 you know, not see something that's going to be misinformation, 2:19:44.400 --> 2:19:49.720 isn't that well, you know, like censorship or or or 2:19:49.840 --> 2:19:52.560 some other thing that we generally would oppose, right, like 2:19:53.080 --> 2:19:57.160 the tool of centralized social control. So they like, these 2:19:57.200 --> 2:20:00.840 are really deep questions, and again this is generally a 2:20:00.959 --> 2:20:03.640 kind of silence, and of course, you know in that case, 2:20:03.720 --> 2:20:06.400 there's silence from the social democrats too, and there's silence 2:20:06.440 --> 2:20:08.280 from the Leninists. I mean, well, the Lenist just kind 2:20:08.280 --> 2:20:11.120 of fantasized about turning Facebook into the tool of the 2:20:11.240 --> 2:20:14.800 central party state uses in order to crush dissent forever 2:20:14.879 --> 2:20:17.240 or whatever. But you know, social democrats are like list 2:20:17.360 --> 2:20:22.199 nationalized Facebook, and it's like, you know, yeah, sure we could, 2:20:22.240 --> 2:20:24.040 we could do that, and then you know the n 2:20:24.080 --> 2:20:27.600 s A owns on Facebook. I'm sure that that's a 2:20:27.959 --> 2:20:30.920 that's a better scenario. Yeah, I mean I tend to 2:20:31.000 --> 2:20:34.680 think somewhat differently about what it means to have an 2:20:34.680 --> 2:20:37.320 anarchist solution to those problems, Like, for example, I don't 2:20:37.840 --> 2:20:40.840 I don't see anarchists or social democrats or leninists having 2:20:40.879 --> 2:20:45.640 any kind of stopping climate change solution um, Because I don't. 2:20:45.720 --> 2:20:51.560 I don't realistically see the organizing potential UM capable of 2:20:51.680 --> 2:20:55.600 actually stopping what's going on in any kind of reasonable 2:20:55.640 --> 2:20:57.800 time frame. And I certainly don't think that the existing 2:20:58.400 --> 2:21:01.879 you know, neoliberal structure are the authoritarian structures that exist 2:21:01.959 --> 2:21:04.760 in you know, other countries or in this country, are 2:21:04.800 --> 2:21:07.080 going to stop it either. So when I think about 2:21:07.280 --> 2:21:10.000 solutions to climate change from an anarchist perspective, I think 2:21:10.040 --> 2:21:14.640 about how can anarchist organizing help people deal with the 2:21:14.760 --> 2:21:18.520 consequences of climate change? And I see I tend to 2:21:18.720 --> 2:21:23.320 see the potential for actually like mitigating climate change coming 2:21:23.400 --> 2:21:28.280 more from there's as the consequences of this become more 2:21:28.400 --> 2:21:31.640 dire to people. If anarchists are better, are good at 2:21:31.879 --> 2:21:35.280 providing relief and helping people and organizing through that, and 2:21:35.400 --> 2:21:38.240 eventually there's some potential to actually get people organized to 2:21:38.280 --> 2:21:42.400 stop the causes of the problem. But UM, I just don't. 2:21:43.240 --> 2:21:46.200 I'm not an optimist of about our ability to stop 2:21:46.240 --> 2:21:50.000 the worst of it at this point, UM, especially not 2:21:50.080 --> 2:21:52.280 after the most recent IPCC report. And I guess I'm 2:21:52.320 --> 2:21:56.120 kind of in the same boat when it comes to disinformation. UM. 2:21:56.920 --> 2:21:59.920 I and this is not just like anarchists. I feel 2:22:00.040 --> 2:22:03.800 like lack, as you've stated, at a like a good 2:22:03.840 --> 2:22:05.480 idea about like what do we do with Facebook, what 2:22:05.640 --> 2:22:06.960 we do with you do? What do we do with 2:22:07.520 --> 2:22:09.200 the way all of these things are set up in 2:22:09.240 --> 2:22:12.920 the harms that they do at scale? Um, Nobody, and 2:22:13.080 --> 2:22:16.640 I include the people currently in charge, has any real 2:22:16.760 --> 2:22:19.480 good ideas for that because they haven't. Like I've been 2:22:19.520 --> 2:22:21.640 working in this space for a very long time, I've 2:22:21.680 --> 2:22:25.240 I've spent a lot of time talking with and debating 2:22:25.320 --> 2:22:27.640 with a lot of the folks who are leading minds 2:22:27.680 --> 2:22:31.240 kind of in the fight against disinformation, and I just 2:22:31.360 --> 2:22:35.520 don't feel like there's any sort of solution that is 2:22:35.600 --> 2:22:38.440 an immediate term solution because so many the problem is 2:22:38.480 --> 2:22:40.959 so advanced as it is so as I guess that's 2:22:41.000 --> 2:22:44.480 kind of like where I land on a lot of 2:22:44.560 --> 2:22:48.760 this stuff is we certainly need to be thinking about solutions, 2:22:48.879 --> 2:22:52.240 but I kind of like, I think it's less likely 2:22:52.320 --> 2:22:54.480 that there's going to be like you were you were saying, 2:22:55.200 --> 2:22:57.160 the kind of debate is between is there some way 2:22:57.240 --> 2:23:00.080 of like reforming or fixing making Facebook more democratic or 2:23:00.120 --> 2:23:01.480 is it just we need to decide that maybe we 2:23:01.560 --> 2:23:03.760 don't have some of this stuff. And I tend to 2:23:03.879 --> 2:23:06.800 land towards that that, like, well, I think the solution 2:23:06.920 --> 2:23:09.760 is going to be maybe maybe Facebook's a bad idea, 2:23:09.920 --> 2:23:13.080 Maybe we should maybe we shouldn't have. There's aspects of 2:23:13.160 --> 2:23:15.920 it that are necessary, obviously, and I think aspects of 2:23:16.640 --> 2:23:19.920 things like Telegram and Twitter that are useful, But um, 2:23:21.160 --> 2:23:25.800 I I think the they're also fundamentally tied to the 2:23:25.920 --> 2:23:28.960 algorithms that drive them, which is also what drives so 2:23:29.120 --> 2:23:31.360 much of the toxic aspects that I think if you're 2:23:31.400 --> 2:23:36.280 divorcing the medium from the algorithm, you're talking about something 2:23:36.360 --> 2:23:39.600 that is very different and no longer than media. It's 2:23:39.720 --> 2:23:42.600 no longer than media. It's it's so radically different that 2:23:42.680 --> 2:23:44.720 it's just it's it's not even useful to compare them. 2:23:45.040 --> 2:23:48.160 It's like it's like comparing Discord to Facebook. It's like 2:23:48.160 --> 2:23:51.600 they're not they don't operate the same way. That's the Yeah, 2:23:51.680 --> 2:23:55.240 that's exactly kind of where I where I tend to 2:23:55.320 --> 2:23:58.520 be on on that. And I know that's not like 2:23:59.840 --> 2:24:04.400 I I to the extent that like, uh, that's pessimistic. 2:24:04.520 --> 2:24:07.280 I guess I am kind of pessimistic about anarchisms ability 2:24:07.400 --> 2:24:11.080 to stop the worst of things that's happening. Where I 2:24:11.240 --> 2:24:15.040 kind of look at myself as an optimistic anarchist is 2:24:15.440 --> 2:24:18.600 in the I believe anarchism offers solutions when these things 2:24:18.720 --> 2:24:20.480 go as badly as they're going to do, in a 2:24:20.560 --> 2:24:23.520 way that you know, the present systems or you know, 2:24:24.000 --> 2:24:28.560 more authoritarian systems that people propose can't solve the worst 2:24:28.600 --> 2:24:31.640 consequences of these problems as as well. That's that's kind 2:24:31.680 --> 2:24:35.240 of where I feel like it is can feel a 2:24:35.240 --> 2:24:38.640 lot simpler to default to, like the dual power framework 2:24:39.360 --> 2:24:41.680 of a lot of these things, because otherwise the problems 2:24:41.680 --> 2:24:43.960 are so complex that you cannot approach them from from 2:24:44.080 --> 2:24:46.880 from every angle, because you really do need to simplify 2:24:46.959 --> 2:24:49.520 and condense them and collapse them into something that is 2:24:49.560 --> 2:24:52.040 more simplified, which often results in like a dual power 2:24:52.160 --> 2:24:55.879 kind of framework for what you actually start doing. Yeah, 2:24:56.160 --> 2:24:58.400 and I think you have to. I think if you're 2:24:59.240 --> 2:25:02.520 an insurrection anist, if you're a revolutionary, whether you're an 2:25:02.520 --> 2:25:06.680 anarchist or you know, a Leninist or whatever, you have 2:25:06.800 --> 2:25:09.800 to be looking at what's actually happening in Ukraine right 2:25:09.840 --> 2:25:14.160 now and recognize that. All right, well, to what extent 2:25:14.240 --> 2:25:15.879 do you think you're going to be able to organize 2:25:15.920 --> 2:25:18.880 people in such a way that allows them to deal 2:25:18.959 --> 2:25:22.320 with thermobaric weapons? You know? In what way are you 2:25:22.400 --> 2:25:25.800 going to organize people that allows them to effectively resist 2:25:25.879 --> 2:25:29.760 cluster musician munitions? Um? And I think that when you 2:25:29.879 --> 2:25:31.520 kind of look at it that way, which is what 2:25:31.640 --> 2:25:34.960 it would take to overthrow any of the large hegemonic 2:25:35.000 --> 2:25:38.240 powers in the world right now, a much more realistic 2:25:38.959 --> 2:25:41.800 set of solutions is, all right, well, let's work on 2:25:42.240 --> 2:25:47.240 building power by building organizations and communities that are capable 2:25:47.320 --> 2:25:50.400 of taking care of themselves in the holes that these 2:25:50.480 --> 2:25:54.360 powers are increasingly going to be experiencing because because they 2:25:54.440 --> 2:25:57.320 too are crumbling. And that's much smarter than being like, 2:25:57.400 --> 2:25:59.480 all right, well, I'm gonna try to get a bunch 2:25:59.520 --> 2:26:01.920 of my friends with rifles and and arm up a 2:26:02.000 --> 2:26:04.760 couple of drones and and go up against you know, 2:26:04.879 --> 2:26:07.520 people who have access to m l r s, you know, 2:26:07.640 --> 2:26:11.440 weapons systems and whatnot. Yeah. No, I think that that's 2:26:11.480 --> 2:26:15.400 a really great point. Um. I. The way that I 2:26:15.440 --> 2:26:19.680 would think about it is the starting with the big 2:26:19.760 --> 2:26:22.480 picture problems is a bit misleading because, as you said, 2:26:22.959 --> 2:26:25.960 like nobody, it's quite like that nobody has solutions to 2:26:26.000 --> 2:26:32.000 these problems, certainly the social Democrats. Yeah, you know, and 2:26:32.320 --> 2:26:33.879 I say this as somebody who's like half a social 2:26:33.920 --> 2:26:36.240 Democrat by temperament. Um, it would be really nice if 2:26:36.280 --> 2:26:38.080 we like did it a little social democratic government and 2:26:38.120 --> 2:26:40.959 they swooped in and you know, did like new deal stuff. 2:26:41.040 --> 2:26:42.960 I like new deal stuff. I like w p A 2:26:42.959 --> 2:26:45.879 stuff as much as the next. Uh. You know, um 2:26:46.640 --> 2:26:51.760 person who likes arts programs and infrastructure development. Well, you know, 2:26:51.920 --> 2:26:56.520 some infrastructure development, not others. Right, the war the war complex, 2:26:56.600 --> 2:26:59.760 we can do a little without. But you know, the 2:27:00.040 --> 2:27:04.200 the thing about it is those big problems. You're right, 2:27:04.240 --> 2:27:05.520 it looks like there's not going to be like a 2:27:05.560 --> 2:27:08.200 big solution, uh, and that we're going to kind of 2:27:08.240 --> 2:27:10.560 have to cope with the consequences of of it, at 2:27:10.640 --> 2:27:16.000 least at first. Even coping this is this is kind 2:27:16.040 --> 2:27:18.120 of where I think the real kind of substance of 2:27:18.440 --> 2:27:21.760 of of the problem that libertarian socialist are facing right now. 2:27:22.200 --> 2:27:26.520 Even coping would require a greater level of organization than 2:27:26.879 --> 2:27:29.360 we have proven able to muster up to now. Not 2:27:29.600 --> 2:27:33.200 because the methods that we choose don't work. Because in fact, 2:27:33.400 --> 2:27:35.640 as you point out, and as I actually really want 2:27:35.680 --> 2:27:38.960 to forcefully argue, and because because we do in the 2:27:39.120 --> 2:27:42.040 end of the essay, like authoritarian methods don't work and 2:27:42.200 --> 2:27:44.320 can't work for a lot of the specific problems that 2:27:44.360 --> 2:27:48.840 we face. Uh. And history shows that very definitively. But um, 2:27:50.520 --> 2:27:54.720 there is also a serious way in which even kind 2:27:54.800 --> 2:27:59.760 of developing these like you know, local highly like you know, 2:28:00.080 --> 2:28:03.800 rooted in a community, uh like direct democratic institutions that 2:28:03.959 --> 2:28:07.400 control real resources, scaling that up to the point where 2:28:07.440 --> 2:28:11.320 it actually could start replacing some of the gaps left 2:28:11.400 --> 2:28:15.520 behind by uh you know, uh states and capitalist firms 2:28:15.560 --> 2:28:17.959 that are too dysfunctional or too focused on their own 2:28:18.000 --> 2:28:21.000 goals to to to to meet those needs that would 2:28:21.000 --> 2:28:24.240 actually require us to be able, for example, to know 2:28:25.080 --> 2:28:28.640 how to build up a cooperative sector in a city, 2:28:29.200 --> 2:28:32.240 or how to kind of like network the tennis unions 2:28:32.320 --> 2:28:36.760 that already exist you know, across different uh you know, regions, 2:28:36.840 --> 2:28:39.680 maybe even across like a continent, and then construct like 2:28:39.840 --> 2:28:44.040 the way in which they self manage each other or 2:28:44.520 --> 2:28:47.000 or not each other self managed together the you know, 2:28:47.160 --> 2:28:49.720 the larger group or would require and you know, there's 2:28:49.720 --> 2:28:52.840 a lot of people working on these problems, but sometimes 2:28:53.320 --> 2:28:55.680 there is a kind of like you know, you'll you'll 2:28:55.680 --> 2:28:58.160 see this like obstacle in the road because for example, 2:28:58.480 --> 2:29:01.440 like what do you do when and the it might 2:29:01.480 --> 2:29:04.480 not even be the state properly speaking, right, It might 2:29:04.520 --> 2:29:07.760 be like a posse that's funded by some rich billionaire 2:29:08.720 --> 2:29:11.440 asshole who's got like his uh, you know, his notion 2:29:11.520 --> 2:29:13.120 that some people are just better than others and that 2:29:13.280 --> 2:29:16.040 you should institute the dictatorship of the tech bros um, 2:29:16.400 --> 2:29:19.240 you know, And then that billionaire's funding a bunch of 2:29:19.280 --> 2:29:22.200 people who have got now like you know, some industrial 2:29:22.400 --> 2:29:25.520 access to industrial infrastructure, and they don't like the fact 2:29:25.560 --> 2:29:27.720 that you're doing your d I Y like you know, 2:29:28.000 --> 2:29:31.360 commune or whatever stuff in there on their turf. So 2:29:32.000 --> 2:29:33.640 how do you fight back against that? I mean, some 2:29:33.760 --> 2:29:35.800 of it you can fight back against that kind of 2:29:35.840 --> 2:29:38.040 our current level of capacity, but some of it does 2:29:38.160 --> 2:29:40.600 kind of require us to start thinking like, well, how 2:29:40.720 --> 2:29:44.120 do you how do you build up financial independence? What like, 2:29:44.200 --> 2:29:45.840 how do you build up the kind of independence where 2:29:45.879 --> 2:29:48.200 it's like if we get kicked off of the capitalist uh. 2:29:48.800 --> 2:29:50.960 Social media, for example, which is a great deal of 2:29:51.040 --> 2:29:54.080 what we use for fundraising. What kind of institutions could 2:29:54.120 --> 2:29:57.280 we create that would be like alternatives, um, that are 2:29:57.320 --> 2:30:00.200 not like the ones that the Nazis created when there 2:30:00.280 --> 2:30:03.000 was a purge of some of them that gab like 2:30:03.120 --> 2:30:05.720 highly dysfunctional, like you know, it didn't even work for them. 2:30:06.040 --> 2:30:07.800 Uh not that I mean I'm happy about that, but 2:30:07.959 --> 2:30:09.800 like you know, my point is like the same thing 2:30:09.840 --> 2:30:12.480 could happen to us, So what would we do? Um 2:30:12.879 --> 2:30:15.720 the like they're there are all these kinds of things 2:30:15.879 --> 2:30:19.240 that are more little picture questions in a way, but 2:30:19.360 --> 2:30:22.400 they scale up relatively quickly to at least like medium 2:30:22.440 --> 2:30:25.240 sized questions where we need this kind of like um, 2:30:26.280 --> 2:30:29.880 these these because because part of what it is is 2:30:30.000 --> 2:30:33.000 also that like it's not that these questions are impossible, 2:30:33.440 --> 2:30:37.880 it's that they're kind of neglected. And there's um there, 2:30:38.000 --> 2:30:41.720 there's these uh the thinkers like Christian Williams, who is 2:30:41.720 --> 2:30:44.640 an anarchist from the Pacific Northwest, who wrote a pamphlet 2:30:44.840 --> 2:30:48.039 about this called Wither Anarchism. And there was another pamphlet, 2:30:48.360 --> 2:30:53.240 uh an essay and CounterPunch by a person named Gabrielle 2:30:53.280 --> 2:30:56.879 Cohn who's an autonomous Marxist basically like a libertarian Marxist 2:30:57.280 --> 2:31:01.800 Marxist anarchist type um called What Happened to the Anarchist Century? 2:31:01.840 --> 2:31:03.640 And both of those essays, which I highly recommend that 2:31:03.680 --> 2:31:07.640 people read, they may they make points basically like this, 2:31:08.040 --> 2:31:11.000 you know, like where where the focus on how to 2:31:11.080 --> 2:31:13.520 construct those institutions and the nitty gritty of how to 2:31:13.560 --> 2:31:17.560 do that has kind of receded from anarchism um as 2:31:17.640 --> 2:31:20.800 it's actually practiced. Uh In like so there's like a 2:31:20.879 --> 2:31:24.560 rhetoric of revolutionary transformation, but not always the attention to 2:31:25.120 --> 2:31:27.320 the nitty gritty of how you actually can like build 2:31:28.120 --> 2:31:32.120 resilient institutions that actually like carry that through which you know, 2:31:32.640 --> 2:31:34.560 a hundred years ago people talking about like the one 2:31:34.600 --> 2:31:39.080 big union and the general strike. But that's kind of like, um, well, 2:31:39.280 --> 2:31:41.200 a it didn't work in exactly the way that they 2:31:41.240 --> 2:31:44.000 were thinking it. What even in the most successful revolutions 2:31:44.040 --> 2:31:47.040 like in Spain and b it was also like the 2:31:48.040 --> 2:31:50.440 there's there's there's a certain way in which our tensions 2:31:50.640 --> 2:31:53.400 are focused on other things. And it's not that those 2:31:53.440 --> 2:31:55.760 things are bad, it's just that like there's been this 2:31:55.959 --> 2:31:59.440 kind of neglect of the question of large scale organization 2:31:59.800 --> 2:32:03.520 and how you do coordination, like you know, in order 2:32:03.520 --> 2:32:05.480 to tackle problems that are kind of like at the 2:32:05.560 --> 2:32:08.440 scale that that I was talking about before um. And 2:32:08.600 --> 2:32:10.880 so basically the argument of the essay is that in 2:32:10.959 --> 2:32:15.480 the absence of that, like for the socialist movement that 2:32:15.560 --> 2:32:19.400 emerged after turned away from neo anarchist, I'm thinking basically 2:32:19.480 --> 2:32:21.600 that it had no solutions, which I don't think it's 2:32:21.600 --> 2:32:25.000 true either, but it's like, you know, like rather it 2:32:25.120 --> 2:32:26.960 was true in the moment, but it doesn't have to 2:32:27.040 --> 2:32:29.560 be true, but it was true, but enough people thought 2:32:29.600 --> 2:32:31.119 that it was that they turned to like the social 2:32:31.160 --> 2:32:34.640 democratic route. But with the failure of Corbin and Bernie 2:32:35.240 --> 2:32:36.959 that kind of burned a lot of people out too, 2:32:37.600 --> 2:32:40.200 and a lot of what is seems like it's coming 2:32:40.320 --> 2:32:42.480 up now, and I'm wondering, I wonder what you guys 2:32:42.560 --> 2:32:45.680 think of this, Like a lot of the people that 2:32:45.920 --> 2:32:48.800 we see showing up in movement spaces, who we see 2:32:48.879 --> 2:32:51.040 kind of like getting politically activated for the first time 2:32:51.120 --> 2:32:54.040 or whatever, a lot of those people are really interested 2:32:54.080 --> 2:32:57.200 in Leninism and on specifically, because I don't I don't 2:32:57.240 --> 2:32:59.480 know how true that is, that's at least that's that's 2:32:59.520 --> 2:33:01.760 that that part is not true, at least at least 2:33:01.800 --> 2:33:03.840 at least here in Portland. That's very much not the 2:33:03.920 --> 2:33:08.360 case or Portland. Yeah, got no other No other part 2:33:08.440 --> 2:33:10.640 of the country is like Portland, other than maybe Eugene. 2:33:11.080 --> 2:33:14.600 Like okay, that's that's fair. That's why a little bit 2:33:14.680 --> 2:33:17.320 too like Portland. Portland is a big enough anarchist city 2:33:17.360 --> 2:33:21.560 that there are entire decade long like like inter anarchist 2:33:21.600 --> 2:33:23.440 wars that no one else in the US has ever 2:33:23.560 --> 2:33:25.959 heard of, that are like the most important thing that's 2:33:26.000 --> 2:33:30.280 ever happened in Portland's Oh boy, welcome to the Green reds. 2:33:30.520 --> 2:33:32.680 Let me tell you, Chris, you have just piste off 2:33:32.920 --> 2:33:36.800 sixty people who could not explain to you if you 2:33:37.000 --> 2:33:39.520 gave them a year, could not explain to you why 2:33:39.600 --> 2:33:44.520 they're angry. And I mean to be to be fair, 2:33:44.920 --> 2:33:47.040 like I I am an anarchist in Chicago. When the 2:33:47.040 --> 2:33:48.880 first time I introduced two of my Twitter mutuals together, 2:33:48.879 --> 2:33:52.600 they almost got a fist fight. So like that makes yeah, 2:33:52.680 --> 2:33:56.160 that's that completely scans even with like DSA stuff, I 2:33:56.200 --> 2:33:58.840 feel like there's there was at least was a trend 2:33:58.840 --> 2:34:01.280 a little bit too stale way from some of the 2:34:01.400 --> 2:34:06.480 more Russia communist kind of like types of aesthetics and 2:34:06.840 --> 2:34:08.800 en ideas because it is a turn off for so 2:34:08.879 --> 2:34:12.200 many people and it does not encourage us, and it 2:34:12.280 --> 2:34:16.320 has like encouraging forefront a form of authoritarianism that maybe 2:34:16.680 --> 2:34:22.360 is not great. Yeah, I don't know, Like I've seen 2:34:22.400 --> 2:34:24.240 sort of both friends in walk. So I think the 2:34:24.400 --> 2:34:29.440 last like a year has been very different than I 2:34:29.480 --> 2:34:32.240 think the previous five. I've seen it on Twitter, but 2:34:32.360 --> 2:34:35.560 I don't know how much it expands into as I think. 2:34:35.600 --> 2:34:38.200 I think it's like I saw more things happens in 2:34:38.240 --> 2:34:40.240 the d s A is that the Leninists essentially took 2:34:40.280 --> 2:34:43.720 over the International Committee and they had this kind of 2:34:43.760 --> 2:34:45.840 delicious division label inside the d s A where like 2:34:46.200 --> 2:34:47.760 you have like you have a part of the d 2:34:47.840 --> 2:34:50.160 s A that's essentially a social democratic machine, and then 2:34:50.200 --> 2:34:51.920 you have the International Committee, which is which is the 2:34:52.080 --> 2:34:56.080 foreign policy wing essentially run by by essentially run by 2:34:56.120 --> 2:34:58.240 by the Leninists. And I think, I don't know, I 2:34:58.280 --> 2:34:59.600 think I saw it there. And the other thing I 2:34:59.640 --> 2:35:02.160 think I saw a lot of that I've seen even 2:35:02.160 --> 2:35:04.480 from people who are ordinarily not Stalinist, is what you know, 2:35:04.520 --> 2:35:06.280 part of what is talking about this is the sort 2:35:06.280 --> 2:35:09.480 of like climate Stalinism or like climate wow stuff like that. 2:35:09.720 --> 2:35:14.840 That is a huge problem that you know, I mean 2:35:14.879 --> 2:35:17.520 I think I think part of it also just has 2:35:17.560 --> 2:35:20.680 to do with the fact that people don't like Okay, 2:35:20.720 --> 2:35:24.560 so like we we have actually existing uh climate Leninism, 2:35:24.720 --> 2:35:26.800 like we have it. It's it's it's it's it's China, 2:35:26.959 --> 2:35:31.920 Like the CCP changed, it's literally changed. State ideology in 2:35:32.120 --> 2:35:34.680 in in the mid two thousand tends, as you know, 2:35:34.760 --> 2:35:37.200 as an attempt to deal to deal with with within 2:35:37.320 --> 2:35:39.879 with pollution and climate change. It did nothing, Like they 2:35:39.920 --> 2:35:43.119 pressed every price. It doesn't it didn't like, it didn't work. Yeah, yeah, 2:35:43.160 --> 2:35:45.080 I mean they did carbon markets, they did. They literally 2:35:45.160 --> 2:35:47.560 just banned coal and entire provinces and it didn't work. 2:35:47.760 --> 2:35:52.959 They they changed the contrat evaluations. I I the problem people. Yeah, 2:35:53.440 --> 2:35:57.120 Like Late lays this out specifically with China to an 2:35:57.160 --> 2:36:00.840 excruciating degree, like like in detail. If you're really interested 2:36:01.160 --> 2:36:04.440 in this type of like climate left authoritarianism. They call 2:36:04.480 --> 2:36:05.840 it climate now in the book, but you can call 2:36:05.879 --> 2:36:08.720 it climate climate leninism, you can call it whatever. But 2:36:08.840 --> 2:36:12.080 they lay out how it could work and how use 2:36:12.160 --> 2:36:15.840 cases of it have not worked. Um to a pretty 2:36:15.920 --> 2:36:17.720 pretty intense degree. If you're interested in that, I would 2:36:17.720 --> 2:36:20.840 recommend reading the book Climate. Leviathan definitely influenced a large 2:36:20.920 --> 2:36:25.560 portion of the writing for this show. Yeah, and I 2:36:25.640 --> 2:36:28.000 mean to your point, I don't think that this is 2:36:28.120 --> 2:36:30.480 the only trend I do. I agree with you that 2:36:30.640 --> 2:36:36.000 out of like the conjuncture, there was this um I 2:36:36.040 --> 2:36:38.279 I think that a lot of the more like establishment 2:36:38.400 --> 2:36:41.920 reformist aspects of the movement were discredited and that pushed 2:36:41.959 --> 2:36:44.560 people in different radical directions, like one of which very 2:36:44.640 --> 2:36:47.360 much is anarchism and libertarian socialism. I am seeing a 2:36:47.440 --> 2:36:50.080 lot more faces that are interested in in in those 2:36:50.160 --> 2:36:53.120 questions for sure. Uh. And that's kind of counter to 2:36:53.240 --> 2:36:55.080 the trend that I was describing from the last like 2:36:55.160 --> 2:36:57.760 five years of like, you know, people becoming more disinterested 2:36:57.800 --> 2:37:01.000 because of the real or perceived lack of Lucians. However, 2:37:01.720 --> 2:37:03.880 I do think that it's important, and this is kind 2:37:03.879 --> 2:37:06.640 of following on Chris's Climate Leninism point, to understand that 2:37:06.720 --> 2:37:09.680 there's at least a counter trend where a lot of 2:37:09.800 --> 2:37:13.000 people are have not only moved away from libertarian socialism, 2:37:13.240 --> 2:37:15.360 have not only moved but they've also moved away from 2:37:15.360 --> 2:37:19.440 democratic socialism. And if you follow that pattern, which is 2:37:19.520 --> 2:37:21.800 a pattern that I at least have seen within the 2:37:21.920 --> 2:37:24.920 d s A, within various trade unions, in a lot 2:37:25.000 --> 2:37:28.440 of among a lot of like intelligencia type people like journalists, professors, 2:37:28.520 --> 2:37:32.959 blah blah, you see a very common set of arguments. 2:37:33.080 --> 2:37:35.360 And I think it's very clear that as the century 2:37:35.440 --> 2:37:38.160 proceeds and the crises get worse and start killing like 2:37:38.320 --> 2:37:40.640 even larger numbers of people than they already are, we're 2:37:40.680 --> 2:37:44.080 going to see this argument a lot more. Um and 2:37:44.360 --> 2:37:46.920 and the argument is something like this. I mean, there's 2:37:46.920 --> 2:37:49.880 a quote from a tweet. Uh and and you know, 2:37:50.000 --> 2:37:54.240 one could argue that the tweet doesn't matter, but you 2:37:54.360 --> 2:37:58.200 are naive if you think this is the tweet climate. 2:37:58.560 --> 2:38:00.560 You are naive if you think climate can ever be 2:38:00.680 --> 2:38:04.960 solved without an authoritarian government at this point. That's and 2:38:05.040 --> 2:38:07.480 that's that's the whole thing. So it's a it's a 2:38:07.600 --> 2:38:11.040 nasty little tweet because it's ambiguous, right, it has this 2:38:11.200 --> 2:38:14.360 like shocking and scandalous effects. You know, we need authoritarianism 2:38:14.480 --> 2:38:17.080 to to to solve climate change a scandalous you know, 2:38:17.760 --> 2:38:20.400 bougeois or whatever. But then it's like okay, wait, but 2:38:20.920 --> 2:38:22.960 what do you mean by authoritarian? Am I just being 2:38:23.040 --> 2:38:28.640 hysterical reactor. It's the same as saying you're naive if 2:38:28.800 --> 2:38:32.240 you think that, um, climate change can be solved without 2:38:33.040 --> 2:38:36.360 nuclear power, or climate change can be solved without really 2:38:36.440 --> 2:38:40.480 big hammers, Like we have authoritarian governments, we have nuclear power, 2:38:40.600 --> 2:38:42.640 we have really big hammers, and climate change does not 2:38:42.760 --> 2:38:44.800 be solved been solved. Is it possible that any of 2:38:44.879 --> 2:38:47.440 those things might be a part of a theoretical solution 2:38:47.520 --> 2:38:51.680 that may happen someday, Yes, but it hasn't. And there's like, 2:38:52.080 --> 2:38:55.240 if you're trying to say that authoritarian governments are better 2:38:55.440 --> 2:38:59.640 at dealing with climate change than the governments that currently dominate. 2:38:59.720 --> 2:39:02.360 Number on, hell of a lot of authoritarian governments are 2:39:02.440 --> 2:39:05.440 responsible for our current situation, our climate change. Number two 2:39:06.080 --> 2:39:08.920 the Soviet Union, which I suspect most of these people 2:39:09.040 --> 2:39:12.520 see as a guiding light, horrible for the environment, turned 2:39:12.560 --> 2:39:17.240 the largest body of water in Eurasia into a poison lake. Yes, 2:39:17.920 --> 2:39:21.880 not not not good at the environment, you know. And 2:39:22.000 --> 2:39:25.240 here's here's what's interesting about the thing. To me. The 2:39:25.320 --> 2:39:28.080 other thing that it's doing is kind of signaling that 2:39:28.320 --> 2:39:32.480 it's like patently ridiculous to oppose this idea without specifying 2:39:32.560 --> 2:39:35.959 what the idea is like and like in other words, 2:39:35.959 --> 2:39:39.879 authoritarianism like but like, I mean, let's let's be blunt right, 2:39:40.280 --> 2:39:43.720 what they're implying as a Leninist is the one party state, 2:39:43.760 --> 2:39:46.720 the secret police, press censorship, in the command economy. So 2:39:47.520 --> 2:39:50.040 does that help you fight climate cheese? That's actually an 2:39:50.120 --> 2:39:52.560 interesting and a kind of like you know, distant five 2:39:52.640 --> 2:39:55.400 thousand foot view, you know, from the god's eye view 2:39:55.480 --> 2:39:59.000 or whatever, like, uh, the that's an interesting technical question. 2:39:59.200 --> 2:40:01.840 Do the has actually helped or hinder a response? But 2:40:01.920 --> 2:40:04.240 we're not even having that conversation because instead it's this 2:40:04.360 --> 2:40:06.920 kind of underhanded attempt to get you to think that. 2:40:07.160 --> 2:40:09.600 So again, does a tweet matter? Well, I think a 2:40:09.640 --> 2:40:12.000 tweet matters if it comes from a member of the 2:40:12.080 --> 2:40:15.080 National Political Committee of the d s A, because at 2:40:15.160 --> 2:40:17.520 least ostensibly if d s A is, which is who 2:40:17.680 --> 2:40:21.240 the person who did that tweet? Because at least ostensibly, 2:40:21.320 --> 2:40:22.840 if d s A is a mass movement, as it 2:40:22.920 --> 2:40:26.120 purports to be the mass movement of socialists in the US, 2:40:26.440 --> 2:40:29.520 and you know, and and the National Political Committee is 2:40:29.680 --> 2:40:33.000 ostensibly the leadership of the d s which I personally 2:40:33.040 --> 2:40:36.480 don't believe, but that's certainly how they think of themselves. Um. 2:40:37.440 --> 2:40:41.000 Then this indicates that the largest most important socialist mass 2:40:41.040 --> 2:40:44.720 movement in the US, at least self branded UH, has 2:40:45.080 --> 2:40:48.600 people in its leadership who believe that the secret police 2:40:48.680 --> 2:40:52.760 might help in addressing climate change. That's an interesting thing 2:40:52.879 --> 2:40:55.120 and it's also very disturbing. And the thing is this, 2:40:55.640 --> 2:40:59.480 this person is not actually like important, He's a symptom 2:40:59.760 --> 2:41:02.880 be because this is something that's happening across the board. 2:41:02.920 --> 2:41:06.880 And a more intellectually serious version of this argument was 2:41:06.959 --> 2:41:12.120 put forward by the Marxist intellectual and historian um a 2:41:12.200 --> 2:41:15.800 professor of human ecology called Andreas Mom. And people who 2:41:15.800 --> 2:41:18.080 are really into like Marx Nerds stuff will probably have 2:41:18.160 --> 2:41:22.160 heard Mom's Yeah, what a very good book called Fossil Capital. 2:41:22.240 --> 2:41:26.480 Everything he's written after Fossil Capital is a disaster. I 2:41:26.840 --> 2:41:30.360 like some of the sabotage. It's it's I mean, it's 2:41:30.480 --> 2:41:35.000 a little romantic and impractically. He wrote an ethical discourse 2:41:35.120 --> 2:41:38.320 instead of a thing about like the risk of eco sabotage, 2:41:38.360 --> 2:41:42.880 which is the actual important part of the degree to 2:41:42.920 --> 2:41:47.160 which it can matter. Because eco sabotage, there's this idea 2:41:47.400 --> 2:41:49.680 on the left that like what we need to do 2:41:49.840 --> 2:41:52.800 is be targeting fossil fuel infrastructure. And again it's like 2:41:52.959 --> 2:41:56.280 what it's it's like what that ds A dude said, Like, yeah, 2:41:56.400 --> 2:42:00.920 that could theoretically be a part of but also process. 2:42:01.000 --> 2:42:03.600 If it's like nine dudes who do it and then 2:42:03.640 --> 2:42:06.080 they go to prison or get shot, well that doesn't 2:42:06.120 --> 2:42:09.880 really fix climate. I think the book, the book A 2:42:09.959 --> 2:42:12.240 Ministry for the Future really lays out all of the 2:42:12.680 --> 2:42:15.560 all kind of like the best case scenario for all 2:42:15.600 --> 2:42:17.360 these types of things and how they can work together 2:42:17.720 --> 2:42:21.080 to overall trend in this direction. Because yeah, that type 2:42:21.120 --> 2:42:24.320 of like eco sabotage in conjunction with other like political 2:42:24.400 --> 2:42:27.959 effects can be impactful on what things happen. But it's 2:42:28.000 --> 2:42:31.240 can won't necessarily be you know, it's not it's not 2:42:31.280 --> 2:42:33.640 as simple as we would like it to be, because yeah, 2:42:33.680 --> 2:42:37.560 it's it turns out a complex world has complex consequences 2:42:37.600 --> 2:42:40.440 and complex and I think I think this is you know, 2:42:40.560 --> 2:42:42.120 the trend that Mom was on, the trend on that 2:42:42.240 --> 2:42:45.560 you know, there's there's a big environmental authoritarian like thing 2:42:45.879 --> 2:42:48.440 among among liberals is a huge thing. In political science, 2:42:48.520 --> 2:42:50.720 was a big thing, and in ecological studies that was 2:42:50.840 --> 2:42:53.640 essentially making a similar argument to to I'm almost making 2:42:53.720 --> 2:42:56.119 this like, well, okay, you need some kind of air 2:42:56.200 --> 2:43:00.400 quotes vague authoritarianism to deal to a climate change, and 2:43:02.040 --> 2:43:06.640 you know it's it's it's it's basically this this attempt. 2:43:06.720 --> 2:43:10.600 There's like these people have have seen climate change, but 2:43:10.840 --> 2:43:12.760 they have no actual solution to it, so they wave 2:43:12.840 --> 2:43:15.200 their hands and pretend that like this, like you know, 2:43:15.320 --> 2:43:16.840 the state is going to descend from this guy and 2:43:16.879 --> 2:43:20.960 save them, and it's not. And I think that's you know, 2:43:21.080 --> 2:43:25.640 I think I think we're we're sort of I don't know, 2:43:25.800 --> 2:43:28.280 I think as we just I guess kind of wrap 2:43:28.440 --> 2:43:31.000 this up because we unfortunately they're running out of time. 2:43:31.080 --> 2:43:34.480 But you know this like this exact moment like like 2:43:34.600 --> 2:43:37.200 these like few weeks are this moment of incredible like 2:43:37.400 --> 2:43:39.320 rupture on the left right, because we have we've had 2:43:39.400 --> 2:43:41.600 we've had in some way social democrats be discredited by 2:43:41.600 --> 2:43:44.400 the fact that like Corbin and Sanders both lost, right, 2:43:44.440 --> 2:43:47.560 their political project has been discredited. Um, we've had a 2:43:47.600 --> 2:43:50.080 serious sort of anexist failures. But then you know, in 2:43:50.200 --> 2:43:51.840 the last couple of weeks, right, it was all of 2:43:51.920 --> 2:43:55.080 the sort of big state like authoritarian people like tied 2:43:55.120 --> 2:43:57.960 themselves through a bunch of imperialists, and you know, may 2:43:58.240 --> 2:44:00.920 staked their whole entire politicy off of them being the 2:44:00.959 --> 2:44:04.240 anti imperialist class. And then you know the state who's 2:44:04.320 --> 2:44:06.680 like a bunch of their press people like literally work 2:44:06.800 --> 2:44:08.960 for right and who who they've been arguing like is 2:44:09.120 --> 2:44:12.720 the count imperist powers does imperialism? And so like, Yeah, 2:44:12.840 --> 2:44:16.800 I think we have this moment where everything is in chaos, 2:44:18.240 --> 2:44:21.280 in which we have to be the ones that that 2:44:21.840 --> 2:44:24.920 that have solutions or have or have the tools to 2:44:25.000 --> 2:44:27.760 build them. And I think that's why that's why this 2:44:27.840 --> 2:44:30.640 project is important, because that's that's something that we need 2:44:31.120 --> 2:44:36.360 in this exact moment. Yeah, I think there's a tremendous 2:44:36.480 --> 2:44:40.280 value in being humble about seeking out solutions to these 2:44:40.360 --> 2:44:43.040 questions and not doing what so many do on the 2:44:43.160 --> 2:44:45.840 left and pretend that their tendency has an absolute answer, 2:44:45.879 --> 2:44:48.240 because all we have is theories. And the reason I 2:44:48.320 --> 2:44:50.080 know that to a point of certainty is that no 2:44:50.120 --> 2:44:53.680 one has solved any of these problems yet absolutely, And 2:44:54.000 --> 2:44:56.800 and so there is a tremendous degree of humility that 2:44:56.920 --> 2:44:58.760 people need to have in terms of like, all right, 2:44:58.800 --> 2:45:03.240 well we are attempting to to arrive at the conclusions 2:45:03.280 --> 2:45:05.359 that can lead us to a better world, as opposed 2:45:05.360 --> 2:45:09.000 to we are trying to force through this thing that 2:45:09.080 --> 2:45:11.800 we know will work. Um, because you don't you know, 2:45:11.920 --> 2:45:14.480 if you're a Marxist Leninist and you think that we 2:45:14.600 --> 2:45:17.000 need climate MAU, you don't know that that will work 2:45:17.040 --> 2:45:19.920 because it hasn't yet. And if you're an anarchist who 2:45:19.959 --> 2:45:24.200 thinks the solution is bombing as many oil refineries as 2:45:24.240 --> 2:45:26.000 you possibly can, well, you don't know that you're ever 2:45:26.040 --> 2:45:27.600 going to get enough people on board for that to 2:45:27.720 --> 2:45:33.080 mean anything. Um. And I think that there's the conversations 2:45:33.120 --> 2:45:35.360 that we need to be having. I think it's it's 2:45:35.360 --> 2:45:38.320 important to see them as conversations as opposed to polemics 2:45:38.959 --> 2:45:42.400 aimed at just getting people in line behind this shining 2:45:42.520 --> 2:45:45.360 vision of a of a clear set of steps. Um. 2:45:45.560 --> 2:45:47.560 It's important to envision the end goal. I say that 2:45:47.640 --> 2:45:49.720 a lot. You know, we need to be looking and 2:45:49.879 --> 2:45:53.440 and accepting the possibility of a better future, but it's 2:45:53.480 --> 2:45:55.840 important not to be dogmatic about the road to get 2:45:55.920 --> 2:45:58.680 there because nobody, nobody really has a clear idea of 2:45:58.760 --> 2:46:03.920 what that looks like. Yeah. So the piece ends up 2:46:04.000 --> 2:46:05.680 and if you want to see the ending of it, 2:46:05.760 --> 2:46:08.320 it'll it'll be up in um in sometime in the 2:46:08.400 --> 2:46:11.080 next couple of weeks. But the basic gist of where 2:46:11.080 --> 2:46:15.120 it goes is precisely to the practical question, right, instead 2:46:15.160 --> 2:46:20.560 of like making these like polemical arguments that are rooted 2:46:20.680 --> 2:46:23.240 more in like kind of like what tribe you've decided 2:46:23.280 --> 2:46:25.680 to identify with within the broad family of socialism than 2:46:25.800 --> 2:46:27.920 in like actually trying to like solve problems for the 2:46:27.959 --> 2:46:31.240 people around you, right, or help contribute to the solutions, 2:46:31.560 --> 2:46:35.040 Like it's actually what we want to ask is like, 2:46:35.640 --> 2:46:40.480 if we have like the giant ecological crisis, Uh, how 2:46:40.560 --> 2:46:42.720 do you how do you actually do it? Is it 2:46:42.800 --> 2:46:44.680 by trying to force people from the top down to 2:46:44.800 --> 2:46:47.240 do it as Um under his mom kind of draws 2:46:47.320 --> 2:46:50.880 on the failed uh policies of war communisms and inspiration 2:46:51.520 --> 2:46:54.800 for that. Or is it potentially by having like democrats 2:46:54.800 --> 2:46:58.200 democratized institutions that incentivize people with carrots instead of sticks, 2:46:58.240 --> 2:47:01.280 Like Naomi Klein basically uncovered a want of our journalism 2:47:01.360 --> 2:47:03.800 and this changes everything. So this is kind of like 2:47:04.040 --> 2:47:07.080 the debate that we have to start having in order 2:47:07.120 --> 2:47:12.960 to be able to together formulate these kinds of solutions. Yeah, alright, 2:47:13.040 --> 2:47:16.680 well I think that's gonna do it for for us today. Um, 2:47:17.480 --> 2:47:19.040 what do we what do we? We do? You go, 2:47:19.200 --> 2:47:21.720 you guys gotta gotta gotta plug. You want to throw up? 2:47:22.080 --> 2:47:26.680 Throw up before we roll out? Yeah. If if you 2:47:26.720 --> 2:47:32.400 want to follow us at at Strange Underscore Matters UM 2:47:32.879 --> 2:47:36.520 on Twitter. UM. We also have a Facebook and you 2:47:36.600 --> 2:47:41.320 can read our articles at Strange Matters dot co op, 2:47:41.879 --> 2:47:44.920 which is our website. Uh. And if anything that you 2:47:45.120 --> 2:47:47.400 read there that you've heard here inspires you at all, 2:47:47.440 --> 2:47:49.480 please consider donating. We're going to be in the next 2:47:49.560 --> 2:47:52.840 month raising money, uh for for the magazine and we 2:47:52.879 --> 2:47:55.480 want to pay writers above market rate because we think 2:47:55.520 --> 2:47:57.920 market rates too low. So but in order to actually 2:47:57.959 --> 2:47:59.360 do that, and none of the money is going to 2:47:59.400 --> 2:48:02.320 the editors from the fundraisers, so if if, if we're 2:48:02.320 --> 2:48:03.800 gonna be able to do that, we've got to meet 2:48:03.800 --> 2:48:10.240 our fundraising target. All right, Well support them and you know, 2:48:11.080 --> 2:48:13.360 figure out how to save the world. It's it's up 2:48:13.440 --> 2:48:16.520 to you. And I'm speaking to exactly one person right 2:48:16.600 --> 2:48:18.440 now and no one else, but I'm not going to 2:48:18.520 --> 2:48:29.520 be more specific. Look for your children's eyes to see 2:48:29.560 --> 2:48:33.120 the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world 2:48:33.200 --> 2:48:36.200 for them. You look and see a tree. They see 2:48:36.280 --> 2:48:39.440 the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to 2:48:39.520 --> 2:48:43.160 the sky. They see treasuring pebbles. They see a windy 2:48:43.240 --> 2:48:46.240 path that could lead to adventure, and they see you. 2:48:46.920 --> 2:48:50.920 They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find a forest 2:48:51.000 --> 2:48:53.880 near you and start exploring it. Discover the Forest dot 2:48:54.000 --> 2:48:56.280 org brought to you by the United States Forest Service 2:48:56.360 --> 2:48:59.440 and the AD Council. Look to your children's eyes to 2:48:59.520 --> 2:49:03.039 see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook 2:49:03.120 --> 2:49:06.120 world for them. You look and see a tree. They 2:49:06.240 --> 2:49:09.560 see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched 2:49:09.640 --> 2:49:12.960 to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see 2:49:12.959 --> 2:49:16.039 a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they 2:49:16.120 --> 2:49:20.680 see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find 2:49:20.720 --> 2:49:23.440 a forest near you and start exploring a Discover the 2:49:23.480 --> 2:49:25.879 Forest dot org brought to you by the United States 2:49:25.959 --> 2:49:29.200 Forest Service and the AD Council. Hi, I'm Katie Lows. 2:49:29.680 --> 2:49:32.240 You might also know me as Quinn Perkins from Scandal 2:49:32.440 --> 2:49:35.480 for Rachel from Inventing Anna. I'm also a mother to 2:49:35.600 --> 2:49:38.360 my son Albi and my daughter Vera. I wanted to 2:49:38.480 --> 2:49:42.000 create a space for open and honest conversations about all 2:49:42.120 --> 2:49:44.920 things parted, and I thought a podcast was the best 2:49:45.040 --> 2:49:48.160 way to do just that. Check out season five of 2:49:48.240 --> 2:49:55.240 my podcast, Katie's Crib. It is super raw, vulnerable, and hilarious. 2:49:56.040 --> 2:50:00.160 Katie's Crib in no way shape form is judgmental or 2:50:00.640 --> 2:50:03.440 telling you exactly how to parent or exactly how you 2:50:03.480 --> 2:50:06.879 should be. I think it really just makes you feel 2:50:06.920 --> 2:50:09.879 less alone and gives you a community. We're going deep 2:50:09.959 --> 2:50:13.960 with guests like inventing Anna's Anna club Ski, how to 2:50:14.000 --> 2:50:18.200 Get Away with Murders, Asian Naomi King, and yes, sometimes 2:50:18.280 --> 2:50:21.119 my finality when he burst into my studio. So that's cool. 2:50:21.440 --> 2:50:23.800 Listen to Katie's Cram every Thursday on the I Heart 2:50:23.879 --> 2:50:27.160 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2:50:34.320 --> 2:50:37.360 Welcome to It could Happen Here, a podcast about things 2:50:37.440 --> 2:50:39.960 following apart and putting it back together again. And today 2:50:40.040 --> 2:50:43.920 we're doing one of our I guess increasingly less rare 2:50:44.000 --> 2:50:46.560 but still sort of uncommon putting things back together again 2:50:46.640 --> 2:50:50.080 episodes and with Me today is Ted Men from Amazonians 2:50:50.160 --> 2:50:54.879 united to talk about different kinds of union union workers organizing, 2:50:55.480 --> 2:50:57.440 UM and the work that you all have been doing. 2:50:57.520 --> 2:51:00.800 So Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me 2:51:02.640 --> 2:51:05.320 so all right, one of the things that I wanted 2:51:05.320 --> 2:51:08.160 to talk about right off the bat is that Amazonians 2:51:08.240 --> 2:51:12.320 United is running a very very different kind of organization 2:51:12.480 --> 2:51:14.840 than a lot of the union efforts that we've talked 2:51:14.840 --> 2:51:16.080 about on the show, and a lot of the sort 2:51:16.120 --> 2:51:20.280 of like I guess, classical sort of business union model 2:51:20.440 --> 2:51:24.840 stuff that that you know, we've we've we've we you know, 2:51:25.080 --> 2:51:26.440 than than what you see in the press, and then 2:51:26.480 --> 2:51:29.280 also that we've been covering. So I wanted to start 2:51:29.360 --> 2:51:33.360 off by asking you about solidarity unionism and how it 2:51:33.400 --> 2:51:39.640 sort of differs from other kinds of union organizations and campaigns. Sure, 2:51:40.240 --> 2:51:43.400 I think it's pretty simple. Actually. I think solidarity unionism 2:51:44.080 --> 2:51:47.760 is workers who believe in ourselves. By that I mean 2:51:47.840 --> 2:51:52.760 and it's workers recognizing that we don't need someone to 2:51:52.840 --> 2:51:59.240 save us UM when because we are the ones doing 2:51:59.360 --> 2:52:03.400 the work, we know how to run our workplaces, we 2:52:03.560 --> 2:52:08.560 know how to do it best, and we also deserve 2:52:10.400 --> 2:52:15.840 the wealth that we produce. So UM, solidity unionism to me, 2:52:16.120 --> 2:52:23.039 is UH, building organization with each other where the fabric 2:52:23.280 --> 2:52:29.080 of our organization is our relationship and our solidarity as 2:52:29.240 --> 2:52:35.280 co workers engaging in struggle against UM, bosses, managers, owners, 2:52:35.959 --> 2:52:39.480 UM everyone. That's that's telling us what to do while 2:52:40.680 --> 2:52:45.600 UH taking the lion's share of the wealth that we create. UM. 2:52:47.000 --> 2:52:51.960 And it's by uniting, coming together around issues that we 2:52:52.040 --> 2:52:56.440 care about, taking direct action in the workplace, UM, building 2:52:56.640 --> 2:53:01.720 our confidence and our strength and our consciousness. UM and 2:53:02.040 --> 2:53:07.440 our organization. To me, a solidary unioniszone UH. It is 2:53:09.000 --> 2:53:14.840 distinctly different from business unionism, which is the dominant form 2:53:15.440 --> 2:53:19.840 mainstream unionism, you know, legalistic unionism, whatever you want to 2:53:19.920 --> 2:53:26.200 call it, UM, that model that has been failing for 2:53:26.840 --> 2:53:33.720 several decades. UM actually is predicated on a deep distrust 2:53:34.080 --> 2:53:40.600 of workers, the disbelief that workers can organize ourselves, run 2:53:40.680 --> 2:53:45.520 our own workplaces, represent ourselves, defend ourselves and each other. UM. 2:53:46.240 --> 2:53:50.240 And in business union I mean you know you you 2:53:50.320 --> 2:53:53.640 see the ads when they're posting UH for union staff job, 2:53:53.920 --> 2:53:57.160 come lead these workers, Come come join this union and lead. 2:53:58.560 --> 2:54:00.360 You're not even a worker in the work place? Are 2:54:00.360 --> 2:54:02.840 you going to lead someone in there? Like you know, 2:54:03.000 --> 2:54:05.440 you're you're a lawyer, you're you know you have a 2:54:05.480 --> 2:54:08.960 different professional expertise. You're not moving the packages with us 2:54:09.120 --> 2:54:15.160 from with from within the warehouse and so um, yeah, 2:54:15.240 --> 2:54:18.320 I think that's that's the main difference to me of 2:54:18.440 --> 2:54:21.600 the model. Do you are you a worker? Do you 2:54:21.680 --> 2:54:24.680 believe in workers? Do you trust and have faith that 2:54:24.760 --> 2:54:29.280 workers we ourselves can build our own organization, lead ourselves? Um? 2:54:30.200 --> 2:54:34.160 And um? And when or do you think workers need 2:54:34.240 --> 2:54:36.560 to be led, need to be represented, need to be 2:54:36.800 --> 2:54:40.160 told what to do? Um, need to pay you to 2:54:40.640 --> 2:54:46.240 go and save that? Um? And uh. Yeah, I believe 2:54:46.280 --> 2:54:50.480 in workers almost. I'm a solidarity unionist. Yeah. And I 2:54:50.600 --> 2:54:53.680 think we were talking a bit before the show about this, 2:54:53.800 --> 2:54:56.040 and I think there's there's a lot of aspects about 2:54:56.080 --> 2:55:01.120 this that are I think very powerful in you know, 2:55:01.400 --> 2:55:03.720 in in in in secrecy, the economy that haven't been 2:55:03.840 --> 2:55:06.000 unionized and I haven't or unions ever treated from more 2:55:06.040 --> 2:55:08.480 people who were never sort of organized and to begin with, 2:55:08.600 --> 2:55:14.400 And I think that's you know something that there's there, 2:55:14.520 --> 2:55:17.280 there's the there's this problem that happens like with with 2:55:17.400 --> 2:55:21.680 a lot of unions where you know, you you you get, 2:55:21.720 --> 2:55:23.640 you get this sort of beureacratic structure that builds up 2:55:23.640 --> 2:55:26.320 and the bereacratic structure that builds up like doesn't have 2:55:26.440 --> 2:55:28.920 doesn't necessarily have the same interests as the people in 2:55:29.000 --> 2:55:31.040 the union, and that's a real problem. And you get 2:55:31.080 --> 2:55:33.560 these entrenched like you know, you can get these in 2:55:33.600 --> 2:55:35.640 trenched caucuses, you control unions, and you get this the 2:55:35.680 --> 2:55:39.000 sort of proliferation of of these people. And I think 2:55:39.080 --> 2:55:42.200 this is this was part of why a lot of 2:55:42.280 --> 2:55:45.120 the sort of the anti union techniques that you saw 2:55:45.320 --> 2:55:47.600 in like the sort of anti union persis in the eighties. 2:55:48.720 --> 2:55:50.000 I mean you've been seeing them for a while. Like 2:55:50.040 --> 2:55:51.920 why they started working in the eighties was that, like 2:55:52.600 --> 2:55:54.840 you know, when when when when someone like starts ranting 2:55:54.879 --> 2:55:57.760 about union bureaucrats right like they're they're actually like there 2:55:57.760 --> 2:55:59.840 actually was a divide there, Like there there there was 2:55:59.879 --> 2:56:03.360 a sort of like I guess like like there was 2:56:03.440 --> 2:56:06.440 a sort of like a kind of fundamental class difference, 2:56:06.480 --> 2:56:10.440 which I think has a lot I mean, also has 2:56:10.440 --> 2:56:12.400 a lot to do with you know, when when you 2:56:12.480 --> 2:56:15.600 get into your sort of like more more revolutionary context 2:56:15.720 --> 2:56:17.520 that that has to do with why a lot of 2:56:18.400 --> 2:56:21.240 unions when you know, France is infamous for this, right, 2:56:21.240 --> 2:56:23.480 Like France has had these giant like comunist trade unions 2:56:23.480 --> 2:56:25.040 and every time a revolution started at the trade union 2:56:25.160 --> 2:56:28.080 just like sits there and does nothing. And yeah, and 2:56:28.160 --> 2:56:29.520 you have to sort of ask yourself like, okay, so 2:56:29.600 --> 2:56:33.080 why is this happening? And I think, yeah, soldier to unionism, 2:56:33.720 --> 2:56:35.240 it has, it has a lot of answers to this 2:56:35.320 --> 2:56:37.480 sort of I guess you call it like that. There's 2:56:37.480 --> 2:56:39.120 there's a there's a sort of like right wing critique 2:56:39.120 --> 2:56:41.440 of unions that has to do with like, well, okay, 2:56:41.440 --> 2:56:43.160 so we don't want workers to organize, we don't want 2:56:43.160 --> 2:56:44.879 them to reflective power at all. But then there's also 2:56:45.400 --> 2:56:47.480 you know, but but the reason that it works in 2:56:47.520 --> 2:56:49.240 a lot of cases because it's able to tap into 2:56:49.280 --> 2:56:52.360 a sort of like into these structural problems that a 2:56:52.400 --> 2:56:57.119 lot of unions have. And I think so my understanding 2:56:57.200 --> 2:57:01.040 of how Yells organizing has been going, and correct me 2:57:01.040 --> 2:57:03.120 if I'm wrong that I've been interesting is that like 2:57:04.879 --> 2:57:08.160 unlike a lot of other campaigns that you've seen, even 2:57:08.160 --> 2:57:10.280 specifically with Amazon, but like a lot of other the 2:57:10.560 --> 2:57:12.440 sort of the campaigns that are getting a lot of press, 2:57:12.480 --> 2:57:14.400 like you're not active, like your goal isn't to just 2:57:14.560 --> 2:57:19.560 get like recognition as a collected bargaining in it. Right. 2:57:20.520 --> 2:57:24.360 That's another key part of our key difference between solidarity 2:57:24.480 --> 2:57:32.560 unionism business unionism. UM. In business unionism, you're what defines 2:57:33.040 --> 2:57:36.280 you as a union is whether you are legally recognized 2:57:36.440 --> 2:57:40.480 by the state, by n l r B, um, by 2:57:41.240 --> 2:57:47.600 the appointed government body. Yeah. That is the point at 2:57:47.640 --> 2:57:51.240 which the folks in these organizations like, are we a 2:57:51.360 --> 2:57:53.920 union or are we not? Okay, let's let's do an election. 2:57:54.000 --> 2:57:57.080 Let's follow all these rules that, by the way, we're 2:57:57.120 --> 2:58:02.000 designed to demobilize us. Yeah, century ago, but let's follow 2:58:02.120 --> 2:58:06.720 these rules. Let's try to fight in the courts UH 2:58:07.080 --> 2:58:09.600 to be recognized as a union. And then once we're 2:58:09.600 --> 2:58:11.800 a union, then we can fight for a legal contract 2:58:12.879 --> 2:58:15.360 that has benefited a lot of people in different ways. 2:58:15.520 --> 2:58:18.280 I'm not you know what I mean. Like, but that 2:58:18.440 --> 2:58:24.600 approach is different than solidity unism, where it's like, we 2:58:24.800 --> 2:58:28.280 know our power is in the workplace, on the shop floor, 2:58:28.440 --> 2:58:30.760 where our power is based on our unity and numbers 2:58:30.879 --> 2:58:34.440 as co workers. We see this when we walk out 2:58:34.640 --> 2:58:36.880 and within a month they give us a raise. Along 2:58:36.920 --> 2:58:38.600 would it have taken to get a raise if we 2:58:38.680 --> 2:58:44.880 went for an l RB election. Yeah, what organization are 2:58:44.920 --> 2:58:49.120 we even building in that way? And so um our 2:58:50.600 --> 2:58:58.960 instead of seeking legal recognition and waging our uh struggle 2:58:59.440 --> 2:59:03.800 again bosses in the courts, we are choosing to wage 2:59:04.760 --> 2:59:09.280 engage in struggle in the shop floor, where we are 2:59:09.600 --> 2:59:11.760 the experts, where we have the power, where we have 2:59:11.879 --> 2:59:14.720 the organization, where we are doing the work, where that 2:59:15.000 --> 2:59:18.920 is our home turf um. We have more power there, Like, 2:59:19.200 --> 2:59:21.880 it makes more sense to build power where we have power, 2:59:22.320 --> 2:59:27.360 not in the institutions that were specifically designed to disempower 2:59:27.520 --> 2:59:30.600 us and give large employers to the upper hand. Um. 2:59:30.840 --> 2:59:34.600 All the different ways that they can manipulate how the 2:59:34.720 --> 2:59:40.720 votes happen, what is considered part of the voting unit, um, 2:59:41.360 --> 2:59:45.360 the contract negotiation process, I mean, all of these legal hurdles. 2:59:45.760 --> 2:59:50.320 I mean, for the vast majority of workers, you'll need 2:59:50.480 --> 2:59:54.440 lawyers to be even understand how to engage in that world. 2:59:54.600 --> 2:59:57.240 That's not our world. It was not built for us 2:59:57.680 --> 3:00:01.480 to be in. It was built to control and so um, 3:00:02.280 --> 3:00:07.240 it just doesn't make logical sense to try to wage 3:00:07.560 --> 3:00:11.040 our struggle in that arena. We should be in waging 3:00:11.120 --> 3:00:13.880 it in the places that we work and so um. 3:00:14.120 --> 3:00:18.440 That yeah, that's I think another core UM principal solid 3:00:18.600 --> 3:00:21.440 or unism like build power where we have it um 3:00:21.600 --> 3:00:24.000 and that's the shop for Yeah, and I think, I 3:00:24.040 --> 3:00:26.880 mean that's something that I've seen. Like in when I 3:00:26.920 --> 3:00:28.560 was in college there there was a big Grand Student 3:00:28.680 --> 3:00:34.320 Union organization campaign and it kind of they had this 3:00:34.440 --> 3:00:36.280 huge problem which was that Okay, well they were trying 3:00:36.280 --> 3:00:38.040 to do they were trying to get a National Labor 3:00:38.040 --> 3:00:42.920 Relations Board like vote under Trump. But they couldn't do 3:00:43.040 --> 3:00:45.480 it because if you know, because because the National Labor 3:00:45.480 --> 3:00:49.640 Relations Board was controlled by just like the even even 3:00:49.720 --> 3:00:54.440 by National Labor Relations Board standards like like just unbelievably 3:00:54.480 --> 3:00:58.080 anti union, like viscerally anti worker forces. It was like, well, 3:00:58.120 --> 3:01:00.360 if if we try to get a vote, like there's 3:01:00.360 --> 3:01:02.800 a chance they could just you know, like literally destroy 3:01:02.840 --> 3:01:04.640 the right like destroy the organizing rights of all grad 3:01:04.680 --> 3:01:07.120 students of the country. And yeah and you get you 3:01:07.160 --> 3:01:10.360 get that with the Nissan election or something like that. Yeah, yeah, 3:01:10.800 --> 3:01:14.200 and definitely delayed it. Yeah, and it's and it's you know, 3:01:14.320 --> 3:01:16.280 and yeah, I think this this is a trap that 3:01:16.400 --> 3:01:19.120 like a lot of people, even even people who are 3:01:19.160 --> 3:01:23.200 really highly organized like get stuck in where you know, 3:01:23.240 --> 3:01:28.080 and end like eventually, uh, the Grand students just like 3:01:28.320 --> 3:01:31.480 essentially just started doing walkouts because that was you know, 3:01:31.600 --> 3:01:33.160 that that was the thing they could do when they 3:01:33.160 --> 3:01:34.880 start doing their own strikes, even til they weren't like 3:01:35.000 --> 3:01:36.800 legally recognized, because that was the thing that you could 3:01:36.800 --> 3:01:40.080 do to you know, actually fight in a terrain that 3:01:40.240 --> 3:01:43.560 wasn't just inherently rigged against you. So, okay, so you've 3:01:43.600 --> 3:01:46.400 you've you've you've decided to to take to take a 3:01:46.480 --> 3:01:48.800 fight in the workplace, like on the shop floor where 3:01:48.879 --> 3:01:50.760 where you're where you're at your strongest. What does that 3:01:50.800 --> 3:01:56.439 actually look like in terms of actions, in terms of organization. Yeah, honestly, 3:01:57.560 --> 3:02:08.480 I think it's simpler and more rudimentary um than one 3:02:08.600 --> 3:02:10.800 might think or that you might read about and you know, 3:02:11.120 --> 3:02:16.000 an academic article or something analyzing. I think it comes 3:02:16.040 --> 3:02:22.840 down to comes down to building community, comes down to 3:02:22.920 --> 3:02:30.080 building culture, and the principles of the community and culture 3:02:30.160 --> 3:02:32.760 that you build together with their coworkers is one where 3:02:33.600 --> 3:02:36.880 we value ourselves and each other. We respect ourselves and 3:02:36.959 --> 3:02:43.000 each other, and that means that we fight for what 3:02:43.360 --> 3:02:47.959 is fair in the workplace. That means that we maintain integrity. 3:02:48.440 --> 3:02:53.920 Anytime a boss disrespects one of us. We need to 3:02:54.000 --> 3:02:56.800 confront it. We we need to address it. H if 3:02:56.920 --> 3:03:02.880 not immediately, uh soon after. In numbers, UM, it means 3:03:03.120 --> 3:03:07.120 if we're getting overworked and underpaid, then we need to 3:03:07.160 --> 3:03:10.960 strategize and figure out how do we how do we 3:03:11.959 --> 3:03:16.320 compel the employer to stop overworking and underpaying us, How 3:03:16.360 --> 3:03:19.080 do we hit them in a place that they are 3:03:19.200 --> 3:03:23.600 forced to respect? And um as it goes In the 3:03:23.680 --> 3:03:26.199 world we are today, it's always the numbers. It's always 3:03:26.200 --> 3:03:29.400 the money, it's always the profit. So UM what that 3:03:29.520 --> 3:03:33.480 means on the day to day, I mean m Amazon 3:03:33.600 --> 3:03:39.680 warehouses are a very isolating place. UM. Amazon has basically 3:03:40.200 --> 3:03:44.000 uh giggified warehouse work. You know, it's like the Uber 3:03:44.160 --> 3:03:46.000 for warehouse where you can pick up shifts. You can 3:03:46.200 --> 3:03:49.360 you know, exer shifts, you can take uh furlough days. 3:03:49.480 --> 3:03:53.520 You know, we called them videos. Um. Many warehouses like 3:03:53.720 --> 3:03:57.960 your work the ten twelve hour shift and you're for 3:03:58.200 --> 3:04:00.440 that entire time, you're near one or two be max 3:04:00.480 --> 3:04:03.240 because they're spaced out and it's loud, and there's machinery 3:04:03.320 --> 3:04:07.760 and your packing boxes and and so UM. On top 3:04:07.840 --> 3:04:12.959 of that, you know that everyday dehumanizing. It's also um, 3:04:13.120 --> 3:04:16.240 you're pushed to work faster and faster. Um, it's difficult 3:04:16.320 --> 3:04:20.080 to have you know, deep human interaction when you're busting 3:04:20.120 --> 3:04:23.080 your gass, moving you know, thirty to forty five pound 3:04:23.120 --> 3:04:29.040 packages as quickly as you can. UM. And so the 3:04:30.200 --> 3:04:33.240 day to day of building and fighting in the workplace, 3:04:33.400 --> 3:04:37.680 building community means uh. For example, every week we have 3:04:37.800 --> 3:04:41.560 a potluck during lunch, bring coworkers together, new coworkers that 3:04:42.000 --> 3:04:44.720 you know, someone could start last week. That's something that 3:04:44.800 --> 3:04:47.160 we hear a lot. You know. Part of the challenge, 3:04:47.200 --> 3:04:49.879 it's the turnover is so high. How can you possibly 3:04:49.959 --> 3:04:53.360 organize the turnover was so high? Um. That is a 3:04:53.520 --> 3:04:57.520 specific weapon that boss is used against us. High turnover 3:04:57.600 --> 3:05:00.160 means what it means we frequently have new cowork is 3:05:00.200 --> 3:05:03.480 harder to build relationship and organization. It means that the 3:05:03.560 --> 3:05:08.600 job feels more precarious. So people are always uh afraid 3:05:08.680 --> 3:05:11.240 that we'll lose our job. You know, we could get fired. 3:05:11.320 --> 3:05:14.720 We could uh they could change uh staffing numbers, that 3:05:14.760 --> 3:05:18.000 could close warehouses. It create you know, as a tool 3:05:18.240 --> 3:05:22.240 higher turnover. They just they turn through workers. Okay, who 3:05:22.440 --> 3:05:24.520 who's willing to do the most work for the lowest 3:05:24.600 --> 3:05:28.160 pay and sacrifice the most of their body. Okay. If 3:05:28.280 --> 3:05:30.280 if you can't handle it, then you quit. If you can, 3:05:30.360 --> 3:05:32.200 then you stay in here. Okay, let's find the workers 3:05:32.240 --> 3:05:35.200 in society that are most able to you know, produce 3:05:35.280 --> 3:05:37.000 the most that so on and so forth and so 3:05:38.120 --> 3:05:42.600 basic things you know, having every day. Uh. Sometimes it's 3:05:42.640 --> 3:05:46.000 just like talking with your coworkers is something that is 3:05:47.160 --> 3:05:51.000 that they try to keep you from doing in the workplace, 3:05:51.480 --> 3:05:57.240 and by engaging conversation, you're already resisting that isolation, already resisting. UM. 3:05:58.080 --> 3:06:01.080 Boss is trying to just control everything, keep everyone divided. 3:06:01.440 --> 3:06:06.959 So weekly pot lunches, UM, having meetings inside or outside 3:06:07.000 --> 3:06:09.240 of the workplace, coming together. What are the issues that 3:06:09.320 --> 3:06:12.440 we care about? UM? How do we bring How do 3:06:12.480 --> 3:06:14.680 we build more unity around these issues that we know 3:06:14.760 --> 3:06:17.600 many people care about. Isn't doing a petition people sign 3:06:17.680 --> 3:06:20.680 on together? Are we delivering the petition in the group? UM? 3:06:20.920 --> 3:06:24.760 If the management doesn't respond, it doesn't give us a 3:06:24.840 --> 3:06:27.600 reasonable response. How do we escalate? Do we need to 3:06:27.640 --> 3:06:30.280 walk out? Do we need to take other action? UM? 3:06:31.040 --> 3:06:35.720 Anytime we see a manager disres disrespecting a coworker, UM, 3:06:36.160 --> 3:06:38.440 how do we post up next to them, pull out 3:06:38.480 --> 3:06:41.760 a notepads, start taking notes ask questions, Um, we're a witness, 3:06:41.920 --> 3:06:43.520 you know, how do we defend each other in all 3:06:43.600 --> 3:06:47.000 of these basic ways? How are we addressing um and 3:06:47.160 --> 3:06:51.000 being honest with ourselves and each other of uh? Just 3:06:51.240 --> 3:06:53.880 the depth of disrespect when they're waiting for us outside 3:06:53.920 --> 3:06:56.039 of the bathrooms to write us up for time off task, 3:06:56.120 --> 3:06:58.640 when they're telling us to work faster when you know 3:06:58.879 --> 3:07:01.160 we're already on a ten hour shift. We're on our 3:07:01.440 --> 3:07:03.480 ten of the ten hour shift. They sent a bunch 3:07:03.520 --> 3:07:06.040 of people home and are forcing us to finish all 3:07:06.120 --> 3:07:08.400 the work for a small number of people. Do we 3:07:08.520 --> 3:07:11.400 continue putting up with it? Or do we immediately walk out? 3:07:11.760 --> 3:07:13.320 Or do we talk with their co works about what 3:07:13.400 --> 3:07:17.240 we want to do? Just being mindful of being honest 3:07:17.440 --> 3:07:22.080 about what how we are being treated? What is fairwood 3:07:22.160 --> 3:07:28.959 is not in taking the necessary action to uh demand 3:07:29.440 --> 3:07:32.600 the the fairness to respect that each of us deserve. 3:07:32.959 --> 3:07:38.080 I think like that's what the workplace struggle looks like. UM, 3:07:39.600 --> 3:07:41.520 I don't yeah, And I think it comes down to 3:07:41.920 --> 3:07:45.279 building that community um with each other and then building 3:07:45.320 --> 3:07:48.440 the culture of not putting up with bullshit, defending each other, 3:07:48.840 --> 3:07:51.920 looking out for each other. Um, there's them there's an 3:07:52.080 --> 3:07:55.200 us UM. Make sure you know inside you're on UM, 3:07:56.400 --> 3:07:59.400 and you know, I think that's the that's the foundation 3:07:59.480 --> 3:08:03.600 of it. Yeah. I think that the aspect especially of 3:08:03.760 --> 3:08:05.840 culture building is really interesting to me because I think 3:08:05.879 --> 3:08:11.200 that's something that's not really talked about much with with 3:08:11.480 --> 3:08:15.320 with organizing efforts in both because you know, a lot 3:08:15.400 --> 3:08:18.560 of like a lot of what is discussed with you know, 3:08:18.640 --> 3:08:22.119 it's it's especially not in academic circles. When when when 3:08:22.160 --> 3:08:23.840 you're when you're just you know, when when when you 3:08:23.879 --> 3:08:26.039 have people writing about union organizing, and when even when 3:08:26.200 --> 3:08:30.520 sort of like other union organizers are writing about unions, 3:08:30.560 --> 3:08:33.879 is that, Yeah, you don't hear much about the cultural aspects, 3:08:33.920 --> 3:08:37.840 and you don't hear much about just resisting the actual 3:08:38.080 --> 3:08:42.920 like psychological degradation that you get. And that strikes me 3:08:43.120 --> 3:08:45.600 I think also as as yeah, as as you've been 3:08:45.600 --> 3:08:50.120 saying something that's that's very important not discussed enough as 3:08:50.720 --> 3:08:52.560 I mean both as just something that that is a 3:08:52.680 --> 3:08:56.520 goal in itself, like not having this sort of you know, 3:08:57.120 --> 3:09:01.760 not not having the just sort of horrible all de 3:09:01.920 --> 3:09:04.600 meeting and abusive sort of tyranny of the boss is 3:09:04.680 --> 3:09:10.000 just like existing as this kind of like normal force. 3:09:12.240 --> 3:09:14.400 But then also like yeah that that this destructs me. 3:09:14.480 --> 3:09:16.720 Something that that is really important for anyone who's who's 3:09:16.920 --> 3:09:22.080 thinking about organizing is you know, getting getting people getting 3:09:22.080 --> 3:09:29.320 people to organize around just like how get get people 3:09:29.320 --> 3:09:32.960 to organize around just the sort of like the psychological decordation, 3:09:34.680 --> 3:09:37.960 like I think is really important because otherwise, you know, 3:09:38.160 --> 3:09:39.960 you get you can get you can just get these 3:09:40.000 --> 3:09:42.520 cultures where like I mean, I remember I had a 3:09:42.600 --> 3:09:44.560 job where I was in like we had a union, 3:09:44.680 --> 3:09:46.720 but like it didn't I mean I was so I 3:09:46.840 --> 3:09:48.240 was I was a temp workers where I wasn't in 3:09:48.280 --> 3:09:50.160 the union, like they had a union, and it just 3:09:50.200 --> 3:09:53.920 sort of didn't do anything, and no one like you know, 3:09:53.959 --> 3:09:55.240 and this this is a real source that sort of 3:09:55.280 --> 3:09:57.320 right reing resentment because the union just didn't do anything, 3:09:57.400 --> 3:10:01.440 and then you know everyone's getting treated terribly like by 3:10:02.320 --> 3:10:04.320 by the bosses and by sort upper management and no one. 3:10:04.440 --> 3:10:07.640 But it never even like it never really like is 3:10:07.680 --> 3:10:09.520 on a culture level, never occurred to them to sort 3:10:09.560 --> 3:10:11.520 of like use the union for that, because that's not 3:10:11.680 --> 3:10:13.720 really what the union was there for. It was just 3:10:13.840 --> 3:10:16.120 to sort of like it was just this thing that 3:10:16.200 --> 3:10:20.119 existed and like occasionally when contracts came up, it would appear, 3:10:21.280 --> 3:10:22.960 and I guess, on on on that note, one of 3:10:23.000 --> 3:10:25.680 the things I was also wondering is what sort of 3:10:26.959 --> 3:10:29.160 so for for for for people who are who are 3:10:29.240 --> 3:10:32.080 interested in their own workplaces and starting doing this kind 3:10:32.120 --> 3:10:35.000 of organizing and starting to sort of, I mean, just 3:10:35.200 --> 3:10:37.920 fight back against their bosses in ways that don't you know, 3:10:38.680 --> 3:10:41.440 either because they don't want to or because they literally can't, 3:10:41.480 --> 3:10:43.200 which I think is is true of a lot of 3:10:43.280 --> 3:10:46.360 people like who who want to organize outside of the 3:10:46.360 --> 3:10:48.360 business union model. How how do you how did you 3:10:48.560 --> 3:10:54.200 all start organizing like this? And what what sort of 3:10:55.760 --> 3:10:58.760 immediate lessons do you think people should should take away 3:10:58.840 --> 3:11:01.680 and should sort of bringing bring into their own organizing 3:11:01.720 --> 3:11:08.840 in the workplace. Yeah, Um, I think at the base 3:11:09.160 --> 3:11:14.040 of the is that, um, I guess I mentioned something 3:11:14.160 --> 3:11:18.200 like this earlier, but that we we can organize ourselves. 3:11:19.240 --> 3:11:21.560 We can. You know, if you're talking if you have 3:11:21.680 --> 3:11:26.360 two coworkers that you're friends with, and um, you say like, hey, 3:11:26.600 --> 3:11:29.960 let's meet up them talk about what's going on at work, 3:11:30.320 --> 3:11:35.879 you're starting to organize, you know, UM. And I think 3:11:37.520 --> 3:11:43.360 part of part of the damage, part of the harm 3:11:43.840 --> 3:11:51.680 that business unionism has done. And also just I don't know, 3:11:52.120 --> 3:11:59.920 hierarchical organizing Umlinsky and organizing UM. I think they're all 3:12:00.160 --> 3:12:06.200 part of uh sort of connected school of thought where 3:12:06.280 --> 3:12:10.160 it's like organizing and you know, building an union is 3:12:10.200 --> 3:12:12.800 something that like you need to be like professionals too, 3:12:12.959 --> 3:12:16.520 or you know, they're experts at it, the experts, and 3:12:16.600 --> 3:12:18.840 then if you're not an expert, then you need to 3:12:18.879 --> 3:12:21.600 consult an expert to figure out how to do it. Um. 3:12:22.280 --> 3:12:25.640 And I think that's bullshit. I think it's if you're 3:12:25.640 --> 3:12:29.520 a worker, then uh, you can be a union organizer. 3:12:30.040 --> 3:12:32.640 If you're a worker and you talk with you know, 3:12:32.800 --> 3:12:35.680 another worker about what's going on in your workplace, like 3:12:35.800 --> 3:12:39.280 you're already starting to organize. Um. Like I said earlier, 3:12:39.280 --> 3:12:41.600 if you're calling a meeting, if you're you know, and 3:12:42.480 --> 3:12:46.519 workers do this all the time, confronting management about disrespect, 3:12:46.600 --> 3:12:49.800 you know, I think it's very much more frequently on 3:12:49.879 --> 3:12:53.279 an individual basis, But it's a matter of like connecting 3:12:53.320 --> 3:12:56.959 your issue with a couple other coworkers and then figure out, okay, well, um, 3:12:57.560 --> 3:12:59.640 what what's our next step? But we need more numbers? 3:12:59.760 --> 3:13:02.920 How we you know, how do we build more numbers. Uh, 3:13:03.040 --> 3:13:05.000 if each of us can invite one more person, that 3:13:05.080 --> 3:13:08.320 six people. If you know, if the six of us 3:13:08.440 --> 3:13:11.560 can are starting a petition, we could probably get you know, 3:13:11.720 --> 3:13:14.160 signature is a fifty or sixty, you know, like it's 3:13:14.240 --> 3:13:17.120 it's step by step and saying if we want to 3:13:17.200 --> 3:13:20.960 build organization, we can do it from the bottom up. 3:13:21.120 --> 3:13:25.320 We can start it UM and we can figure this out. 3:13:25.560 --> 3:13:30.720 I mean, every even within the same company, even within 3:13:30.800 --> 3:13:33.200 the same company in the same city there. You know, 3:13:33.320 --> 3:13:39.000 I work at UM a delivery station, Engage Park, other 3:13:39.080 --> 3:13:42.200 delivery stations in the city of Chicago have a completely 3:13:42.320 --> 3:13:47.280 different culture, you know, the neighborhood that it's in, the 3:13:48.280 --> 3:13:52.400 workers that are the bosses, you know. And so even 3:13:52.720 --> 3:13:55.840 in the same company, the same type of workplace in 3:13:55.920 --> 3:13:58.720 the same city, it's gonna be a different story for 3:13:58.879 --> 3:14:03.760 how that work place is gonna you know, get united, 3:14:04.280 --> 3:14:08.560 come together, UM, figure things out, build organization. And it's 3:14:08.600 --> 3:14:16.120 just anyone there that is thinking about that that that 3:14:16.600 --> 3:14:20.160 kind of just begins the process of putting together the basics. 3:14:20.640 --> 3:14:22.520 All right, we need to start building up some numbers. 3:14:22.600 --> 3:14:25.199 We need to start having you know, addressing some issues 3:14:25.400 --> 3:14:28.240 that people care about and there's always I mean, there's 3:14:28.280 --> 3:14:30.959 always the you know, overworked and underpaid and that's gonna 3:14:30.959 --> 3:14:33.120 exist everywhere. And can always go after those issues, but 3:14:33.200 --> 3:14:35.080 frequently they're small ones. Like our first issue was a 3:14:35.120 --> 3:14:39.240 water petition uh or or or or at was access 3:14:39.320 --> 3:14:41.440 to water UM and this is how we started as 3:14:41.480 --> 3:14:46.720 an organization UM. Basically, they were taking away bottled water. 3:14:46.840 --> 3:14:48.760 They said we were leaving around too much garbage. They're 3:14:48.760 --> 3:14:50.560 saying bottled water is only there for the summer, and 3:14:50.600 --> 3:14:53.000 now that's not the summer. That whatever. They're trying to 3:14:53.240 --> 3:14:55.800 save a few dollars a day on bottled water to 3:14:56.200 --> 3:15:02.400 make us, you know, work without it UM. And we said, 3:15:03.000 --> 3:15:05.960 that's fucked up. We're doing warehouse work like this, hard 3:15:06.040 --> 3:15:08.320 manual labor and it's hot in here. We need a 3:15:08.360 --> 3:15:12.600 bottle water. It's you know, not just that broken, unfiltered 3:15:12.640 --> 3:15:15.200 fountain across the warehouse that you can't even get to 3:15:15.320 --> 3:15:20.640 while you're working. UM. And so, uh, just a few 3:15:20.680 --> 3:15:22.600 of us that we're talking at break it was like, okay, 3:15:22.760 --> 3:15:24.960 well there's six of us here. Well we're kind of 3:15:25.120 --> 3:15:27.600 you know, this is the this is the break room 3:15:27.640 --> 3:15:30.600 at work. They're like managers walking around their cameras in here, 3:15:30.720 --> 3:15:34.200 like let's meet outside, uh and figure this out. UM. 3:15:34.440 --> 3:15:36.480 So you know, we we met at a at a 3:15:36.520 --> 3:15:42.119 Crispy Cream down on like ninety three, um, and uh 3:15:42.320 --> 3:15:43.920 we just basically said like, well, how are we gonna 3:15:43.959 --> 3:15:46.600 get this water? We've been asking management? Uh, you know 3:15:46.680 --> 3:15:48.520 they've given us the same reasons. We need to do 3:15:48.640 --> 3:15:52.160 something bigger that that they can't ignore. Um, how about 3:15:52.160 --> 3:15:55.440 a petition, and so we just drafted it. The six 3:15:55.520 --> 3:15:57.760 of us, we drafted it. We went around. We got 3:15:58.120 --> 3:16:01.520 hundred fifty signature. Is I think from our coworkers are 3:16:01.600 --> 3:16:04.560 just like basic commands. We need bottle water stocked every day. 3:16:04.600 --> 3:16:06.320 They need to be you know, filters need to be clean. 3:16:06.400 --> 3:16:08.760 We need to get be able to take a break 3:16:08.800 --> 3:16:13.800 to get this water. Um. And we delivered uh, the 3:16:13.959 --> 3:16:17.400 hundred fifty signatures to management. UM. I think it was 3:16:17.480 --> 3:16:19.959 within thirty or forty minutes. They drove to a grocery store, 3:16:20.200 --> 3:16:23.119 bought you know, went to the nearest pizza bought every 3:16:23.879 --> 3:16:25.600 case of bottle. While they have brought it and passed 3:16:25.640 --> 3:16:27.880 it out to everyone, We're like, oh, okay, like that 3:16:28.120 --> 3:16:30.080 was you know, people like that's just hey, we gotta 3:16:30.120 --> 3:16:31.680 do a petition for this thing we gotta do, you 3:16:31.760 --> 3:16:35.120 know what we should? Probably it was that I don't 3:16:35.120 --> 3:16:37.600 want to say easy, because it's definitely not easy to like, 3:16:37.920 --> 3:16:42.280 but the steps, the step by step of like how 3:16:42.440 --> 3:16:45.600 do you begin, how do you get something started? How 3:16:45.680 --> 3:16:50.640 do you start building some munity? Um? These are steps 3:16:50.680 --> 3:16:53.520 that we have taken. These are you know, what we 3:16:53.760 --> 3:17:00.160 think is can be applicable um with everyone's own kind 3:17:00.160 --> 3:17:04.160 of personal tweaks based on you know, your own workplace, UM, 3:17:04.360 --> 3:17:07.560 to start getting something going from more coworkers to start realizing, 3:17:07.879 --> 3:17:10.960 oh yeah, like we should be in more control of 3:17:11.040 --> 3:17:13.280 what's happening around here because we're the ones that are 3:17:13.320 --> 3:17:15.880 doing all the work. We're the ones that are suffering 3:17:15.920 --> 3:17:19.039 the most from it in our bodies getting ground down 3:17:19.200 --> 3:17:22.080 from doing it. And so um, yeah, I think that 3:17:22.520 --> 3:17:24.280 I think I look back to a previous question to 3:17:24.440 --> 3:17:27.120 but like how we started, how you engage in the struggle, 3:17:27.680 --> 3:17:31.959 and just like what that looks like for building building 3:17:32.040 --> 3:17:34.840 something up from nothing to something like that's what that's 3:17:34.879 --> 3:17:37.480 what we you know what I mean, that's what we did. Yeah, 3:17:37.520 --> 3:17:40.279 from what I've seen, you all have been extremely effective, 3:17:41.040 --> 3:17:45.360 like at at getting management to recognize it but essentially 3:17:45.400 --> 3:17:48.360 getting them to like a seed to your demands because 3:17:49.320 --> 3:17:54.320 like this, this this kind of organizing like so solid 3:17:54.560 --> 3:17:55.640 you need what what I'm trying to say, this is 3:17:55.720 --> 3:17:57.960 all there. The unison of works. Like it's not like 3:17:58.840 --> 3:18:00.880 like and you know in yeah, it's it's a thing. 3:18:01.040 --> 3:18:02.360 I think one of one of the things you're talking 3:18:02.360 --> 3:18:05.960 about it is like, yeah, it's like when like when 3:18:06.120 --> 3:18:09.400 you win, even on something fairly small, right, and you 3:18:09.720 --> 3:18:14.320 can show people that this works and that like you know, 3:18:14.360 --> 3:18:16.320 if if, if, if you actually come together on something, 3:18:16.360 --> 3:18:18.000 you can force management to do stuff like I think 3:18:18.120 --> 3:18:24.080 that also become becomes an important sort of like I 3:18:24.120 --> 3:18:25.840 don't know if catalyst is the right word, but it 3:18:26.160 --> 3:18:33.000 becomes it becomes becomes an engine that like feeds itself definitely. 3:18:33.440 --> 3:18:37.120 I mean, especially for a big company like Amazon, Like 3:18:39.560 --> 3:18:44.360 I think the most common perspective, at least at the 3:18:44.440 --> 3:18:46.600 start is like, this is such a big company, Like 3:18:46.640 --> 3:18:49.000 what could we possibly do? They have a thousand warehouses, 3:18:49.120 --> 3:18:51.360 like what you know, they could choose to close one 3:18:51.400 --> 3:18:53.560 and open another one, you know, they do this, or 3:18:54.040 --> 3:18:58.119 they could suddenly you know and with two weeks notice, 3:18:58.240 --> 3:19:01.440 like change the schedule from an even time to overnight time, 3:19:01.520 --> 3:19:04.080 which is what they did to us. Basically, UM, what 3:19:04.200 --> 3:19:06.560 can we possibly do? And so you know, but I 3:19:06.640 --> 3:19:11.960 think it's like the moment, it's like there's a a 3:19:12.160 --> 3:19:16.240 cliff or what do you call, like the watershed a point, 3:19:16.360 --> 3:19:19.120 like the moment you kind of take that first collective 3:19:19.160 --> 3:19:22.320 action and then get what you want. UM. It's like, 3:19:22.640 --> 3:19:25.720 oh wait, it's not as like within this space like 3:19:25.840 --> 3:19:30.040 we can actually make our lives a lot better pretty quickly. Yeah, 3:19:30.959 --> 3:19:35.280 we just come together and do it ourselves and recognize 3:19:35.360 --> 3:19:40.640 the power that we have. UM. And I think it's 3:19:40.720 --> 3:19:47.880 like mhm. That's one of the reasons why it works 3:19:48.120 --> 3:19:55.920 so well is because it is different from the mainstream approach, 3:19:56.480 --> 3:20:01.640 which UM bosses in these companies understand very well and 3:20:01.879 --> 3:20:04.760 can easily maneuver around, such as, oh if we do 3:20:04.920 --> 3:20:08.040 if if one of our managers does something wrong, what 3:20:08.120 --> 3:20:10.680 will happen next is we'll receive one of our lawyers, 3:20:10.720 --> 3:20:13.320 will receive a grievance from one of their representative lawyers, 3:20:13.360 --> 3:20:15.560 and you know, this business union will have this many 3:20:15.640 --> 3:20:17.560 months respond and then we can do this and then 3:20:18.040 --> 3:20:20.680 you know, uh, we'll do this paperwork and have this 3:20:20.800 --> 3:20:23.360 legal back and forth and then maybe we'll address this 3:20:23.440 --> 3:20:26.840 issue six to twelve months down the line. UM, no disruption, 3:20:27.240 --> 3:20:30.400 you know, nothing to worry about. UM. Let the bosses 3:20:30.480 --> 3:20:32.520 run amuck and we'll get a six to twelve month 3:20:32.560 --> 3:20:34.880 ad start to you know, and maybe get a slap 3:20:34.920 --> 3:20:36.280 on the wrist and a fix wherever you need to 3:20:36.400 --> 3:20:39.680 or pay a small fine. UM. As opposed to that's 3:20:39.720 --> 3:20:42.680 business unions, like as opposed to Southern unism, where it's 3:20:42.720 --> 3:20:46.040 like they just disrespected us in a way that like 3:20:46.400 --> 3:20:48.840 we're not trying to put up with, like we are hurting. 3:20:49.320 --> 3:20:52.119 We can't even finish the shift without hurting ourselves more. 3:20:52.440 --> 3:20:55.800 We're just gonna group up the walk out right now. UM, 3:20:56.760 --> 3:20:58.920 they're gonna figure out, they're gonna have to figure out 3:20:58.959 --> 3:21:02.600 how to get the rest of these packages out without us. UM. 3:21:02.920 --> 3:21:06.560 And when we come back tomorrow, uh, we'll see, we'll 3:21:06.600 --> 3:21:09.280 see if they want to keep treating us the same way. UM. 3:21:10.120 --> 3:21:13.000 And so it's like to me, you know, we we've 3:21:13.040 --> 3:21:19.600 had basic basic management confrontations where either immediately uh you know, 3:21:19.680 --> 3:21:22.240 they were understaffing and we grouped up rolled into office 3:21:22.320 --> 3:21:23.880 just like with seven of us, not even like the 3:21:23.920 --> 3:21:27.600 whole shift. Um, seven out of fifty people rolling off 3:21:27.640 --> 3:21:29.600 and said, you have too few people on the lines. 3:21:29.680 --> 3:21:31.760 You're you need an add extra person. We've been asking 3:21:31.800 --> 3:21:35.200 you have it. Um, we've folded our arms. Within five minutes, 3:21:35.200 --> 3:21:37.040 they send an extra person over there. They're working the 3:21:37.120 --> 3:21:41.240 rest of the shift. UM. In the in the business 3:21:41.320 --> 3:21:43.720 union approach, like I don't even know, Like how you 3:21:43.840 --> 3:21:47.039 followed you know, understaffing grievance, Like what are the details? 3:21:47.080 --> 3:21:49.680 How does that happen? Does a union representative have to 3:21:49.760 --> 3:21:52.880 be contacted and then negotiate in some way? Um? But 3:21:53.120 --> 3:21:56.720 that like, let's just address us right now and fix it. Um. 3:21:56.920 --> 3:22:00.320 I don't want to wait for some outside activity. Let's 3:22:00.360 --> 3:22:03.800 just improve our working conditions right now, like confronting and 3:22:03.879 --> 3:22:07.320 addressing it. UM. I think it's just you know, that's 3:22:07.360 --> 3:22:14.080 something that Um, the bosses are less it's less predictable 3:22:14.160 --> 3:22:16.280 for them, it's less in their control, it's less in 3:22:16.360 --> 3:22:20.800 their wheelhouse. UM. And I think that's a cury reason 3:22:20.879 --> 3:22:23.280 why it works better. Yeah, And I think one of 3:22:23.360 --> 3:22:24.840 one of the things the thing this reminds me of. 3:22:25.120 --> 3:22:26.360 It reminds me of the kind of stuff that you 3:22:26.440 --> 3:22:28.360 needs used to do when they were strong, Like it 3:22:28.400 --> 3:22:30.160 reminds me of like yeah, you're you're like c I 3:22:30.280 --> 3:22:32.400 O like sit down, strike, right, It's like, well, okay, 3:22:32.480 --> 3:22:34.119 if if the manager is something we didn't we don't 3:22:34.160 --> 3:22:36.560 like so and blows a whistle, everyone sits down, and 3:22:36.720 --> 3:22:39.680 like it's like it's that that kind of not just 3:22:39.800 --> 3:22:41.560 sort of like way to go to the legal channels, 3:22:41.640 --> 3:22:47.040 but just just like im immediately taking action is like 3:22:47.160 --> 3:22:49.039 it's it's something that it's like it's it's something that works, 3:22:49.080 --> 3:22:50.800 and it's you know, like that that's that's the kind 3:22:50.840 --> 3:22:53.440 of stuff that like build you built the original like 3:22:53.560 --> 3:22:55.680 labor movement. And it's really interesting to me that, like 3:22:56.000 --> 3:22:59.080 because because I think there's a lot of like I 3:22:59.120 --> 3:23:00.720 think a lot of people look back at that era 3:23:01.240 --> 3:23:03.480 sort of like nostalgically and go like, well, Okay, if 3:23:03.560 --> 3:23:05.360 unions were stronger, we could do this, but like that's 3:23:05.400 --> 3:23:08.600 not really true. You can't actually just like like you 3:23:08.920 --> 3:23:11.560 can do the same things that like, you know, you're 3:23:11.600 --> 3:23:14.240 like nineteen thirties c I O was doing like and 3:23:14.400 --> 3:23:16.520 and and if you know and you don't you don't 3:23:16.640 --> 3:23:20.320 need the kind of institutional backing that that those people had. 3:23:20.440 --> 3:23:23.440 If if like if if you're organized enough in your 3:23:23.480 --> 3:23:25.800 in your specific location. I think that's a really interesting 3:23:26.760 --> 3:23:28.080 I don't know, I'm curious if you agree with us. 3:23:28.360 --> 3:23:30.160 It seems like a skord of interesting lesson about like 3:23:30.280 --> 3:23:36.280 what happens to the labor movement, where like the more 3:23:36.520 --> 3:23:39.920 the more you get into this sort of like okay, well, 3:23:40.040 --> 3:23:42.640 the the union is now two lawyers sitting down with 3:23:42.720 --> 3:23:45.800 each other, right, the what what you're doing basically is 3:23:45.840 --> 3:23:47.200 and then like this is the this is this is 3:23:47.200 --> 3:23:49.760 explicitly what the National Labor Relations Act was, right, Like 3:23:50.120 --> 3:23:52.160 it was an attempt to get labor, labor and capital 3:23:52.240 --> 3:23:54.080 sit down at the table and stop fighting so that 3:23:54.280 --> 3:23:57.200 they could, like you know, basically Selft production could go on. 3:23:57.400 --> 3:23:59.600 And like some sometimes sometimes that that you know, sometimes 3:23:59.640 --> 3:24:01.560 a favor the union. Right, sometimes you'd have the president 3:24:01.720 --> 3:24:04.280 be like like the actual like US president will be like, okay, 3:24:04.959 --> 3:24:07.640 you come you like steal company. You have to like 3:24:08.400 --> 3:24:11.240 give workers what they're asking for because our steel production 3:24:11.280 --> 3:24:14.680 shut down, right, But like you know, the problem with 3:24:14.760 --> 3:24:18.160 that is that it's based on like it's based on 3:24:18.320 --> 3:24:22.039 at all costs trying to sort of preserve like it's 3:24:22.040 --> 3:24:23.840 based on cost like trying to preserve the labor peace. 3:24:23.920 --> 3:24:26.280 And you know, I mean there's reasons for that too, Like, yeah, 3:24:26.360 --> 3:24:30.080 like I'm not gonna like like obviously there's there's any 3:24:30.120 --> 3:24:32.600 time you take a direct action, there's a risk and yeah, 3:24:32.680 --> 3:24:35.400 like I'm not gonna like, you know, I'm not gonna 3:24:35.440 --> 3:24:39.120 be like like it's it's hard to be really mad 3:24:39.360 --> 3:24:41.840 at people who don't want to go on strike because 3:24:42.120 --> 3:24:44.640 they don't like because you know, how how am I 3:24:44.640 --> 3:24:48.240 going to defeat my family, etcetera, etcetera. But like, you know, 3:24:48.640 --> 3:24:53.240 bringing like having that kind of militancy in the workplace, 3:24:53.840 --> 3:24:56.800 just you know, without without any kind of formal recognition, 3:24:58.000 --> 3:25:00.280 I think is an extremely powerful tactic. And is I 3:25:00.360 --> 3:25:02.840 mean literally how the original labor movement like got built. 3:25:05.720 --> 3:25:08.920 It's difficult though, and it can be scary, you know. 3:25:09.080 --> 3:25:14.720 And it's like I think you you posed kind of 3:25:14.800 --> 3:25:19.840 the question or or or kind of questioning the idea 3:25:19.920 --> 3:25:24.160 like where did how did the labor movement get to 3:25:24.280 --> 3:25:29.240 where it's at if the origins were more conscious um 3:25:29.320 --> 3:25:36.320 in the ways that you've been describing UM. I think that. Um. 3:25:37.640 --> 3:25:41.480 I mean, it's it's definitely, you know, the risk is 3:25:41.560 --> 3:25:47.080 always there. You're always confronting the power I mean in 3:25:47.200 --> 3:25:49.800 the workplace when it comes down to it like that. Obviously, 3:25:49.879 --> 3:25:55.480 the power dynamics shift, and it's more complex than you know, 3:25:55.600 --> 3:25:58.680 bosses have more power than workers unless workers organized, and 3:25:58.720 --> 3:26:01.280 workers have more power than bosses. That is true. And 3:26:01.440 --> 3:26:04.400 also for example, on the day to day, you know, 3:26:04.560 --> 3:26:09.200 the boss can fire anyone and then you're you know, 3:26:10.560 --> 3:26:14.760 however you end up dealing with it, Uh, you know, 3:26:14.959 --> 3:26:18.760 you could be out anywhere between two or twenty paychecks 3:26:18.840 --> 3:26:22.720 until something is resolved legally or even through direct Actually, 3:26:22.920 --> 3:26:30.640 there's obviously very directly oppressive power dynamic there, um, and 3:26:32.400 --> 3:26:38.480 I think that um to speak truth to power, to 3:26:38.680 --> 3:26:43.720 directly confront it um. Of course it's frightening. I mean 3:26:43.800 --> 3:26:47.560 I would be lying if you know, like I'm I'm 3:26:47.920 --> 3:26:50.800 you know, talking on this on this podcast about doing this, 3:26:50.959 --> 3:26:53.160 and yeah, we're doing this, and like you know, I'm 3:26:53.200 --> 3:26:55.160 not gonna pretend that like when we were even when 3:26:55.200 --> 3:26:59.440 we were in a forty person mass, you know, confronting management, 3:26:59.480 --> 3:27:03.119 addressing everyone together, it's still like, you know, there's there's 3:27:03.280 --> 3:27:06.440 there's still this para dynamic here and we're punching up 3:27:06.720 --> 3:27:09.520 like it's a punch, but like we're punging up to 3:27:09.640 --> 3:27:14.640 someone that's like a bigger, heavier, UM adversary, and so 3:27:14.760 --> 3:27:17.560 it's like they could swing back to like you gotta 3:27:17.680 --> 3:27:23.160 gotta be ready to and so UM, I think that 3:27:24.080 --> 3:27:27.160 what I'm describing on a kind of like face to 3:27:27.280 --> 3:27:32.240 face and the personal that moment in the workplace, I 3:27:32.320 --> 3:27:34.680 think on a broader scale also exists where it's like 3:27:35.120 --> 3:27:41.600 waging an extended you know, organizing struggle to be fighting 3:27:41.680 --> 3:27:45.000 this fight millions of times in many different ways and 3:27:45.080 --> 3:27:47.640 then continually trying to bring people together. You know, people 3:27:47.720 --> 3:27:51.880 move on because everything that's happening in life. They got 3:27:51.959 --> 3:27:53.520 evicted from their place, so they had to move to 3:27:53.560 --> 3:27:55.480 a different place far away. Okay, suddenly they had to 3:27:55.560 --> 3:27:58.040 leave a job and they were someone that was contributing 3:27:58.040 --> 3:28:00.760 a lot to the organizing. Some happened, someone has a 3:28:00.800 --> 3:28:03.360 family member, Uh, you know that they need to spend 3:28:03.360 --> 3:28:06.560 a little bit more time with um, everything that's happening, 3:28:07.160 --> 3:28:12.920 everything that's making, you know, reducing our time as working 3:28:12.959 --> 3:28:14.800 people to take care of ourselves and each other, like 3:28:15.240 --> 3:28:19.920 all of this, we're fighting against all of this, and UM, 3:28:21.360 --> 3:28:24.560 they're definitely ups and downs. They're definitely times it was 3:28:24.640 --> 3:28:27.800 like thing like we're you know, and then it seems 3:28:27.840 --> 3:28:31.800 I get times. Uh, all of the struggles and life 3:28:32.360 --> 3:28:34.680 like it's like you take like two steps forward and 3:28:34.720 --> 3:28:38.720 then two steps backwards. Get that, and so you know, 3:28:38.840 --> 3:28:45.000 there's definitely a difficult reality permitting everything, you know, all 3:28:45.080 --> 3:28:49.400 of the organizing wins, the advents that we're talking about. 3:28:50.080 --> 3:28:53.320 We need to be fully honest about that and also 3:28:54.200 --> 3:28:58.800 recognize that there's still like nothing more. There's like nothing 3:28:58.879 --> 3:29:02.640 more beautiful, powerful, There's there's no there's nothing that feels 3:29:02.760 --> 3:29:07.520 better than the that moment when you when the power 3:29:07.600 --> 3:29:10.240 dynamic was like this and you pull something off and 3:29:10.280 --> 3:29:13.600 it's like yeah, I was like, oh, like you you 3:29:13.800 --> 3:29:17.680 just did what we wanted, you know, and more. And 3:29:17.760 --> 3:29:19.800 then now like you're being real careful with us, like 3:29:20.400 --> 3:29:25.360 we we change things here, like our lives are better concretely, UM, 3:29:26.200 --> 3:29:30.000 and we made it happen, and uh, you know, I 3:29:30.080 --> 3:29:34.600 think those are like celebrating the winds and like taking 3:29:34.680 --> 3:29:36.840 joy not always thinking so far, okay, we got more 3:29:36.920 --> 3:29:39.920 to go. Yeah, they're always there's always more that UM 3:29:40.320 --> 3:29:43.280 we can and have to be building. And let's make 3:29:43.320 --> 3:29:47.320 sure that we're taking the time to recognize UM and 3:29:47.480 --> 3:29:51.440 celebrate each of the steps that we are UM advancing. 3:29:52.160 --> 3:29:56.920 So that you know, we we don't get lost in 3:29:57.440 --> 3:30:01.440 you know, assuming in the cycle of like taking permanent, 3:30:01.600 --> 3:30:05.440 infinite growth and organizing and being constantly stressed out about it, 3:30:05.879 --> 3:30:08.480 rather than like taking those breathers, taking those moments. Okay, 3:30:08.640 --> 3:30:10.800 like let's take this and strive, let's do this sustainable, 3:30:10.879 --> 3:30:14.360 let's not burnout. Um. Yeah, I think that's all part 3:30:14.520 --> 3:30:18.160 of figuring out how to how to how to make 3:30:18.200 --> 3:30:23.000 it happen. Yeah, And I think that's that's important. I 3:30:23.080 --> 3:30:25.800 think that that that's an important thing to understand with 3:30:25.840 --> 3:30:28.160 any kind of organizing, which is that like yeah, if 3:30:28.280 --> 3:30:33.000 if if you like if if if if, there's never 3:30:33.200 --> 3:30:35.840 sort of a moment in which you're reflecting on or 3:30:36.200 --> 3:30:40.039 or just celebrating like that the goals that you've actually accomplished, Right, 3:30:40.080 --> 3:30:41.800 you're just going to sort of be endlessly bashing your 3:30:41.840 --> 3:30:44.840 head against the wall, and you know that this is 3:30:44.959 --> 3:30:46.320 this is like yeah, I mean, this is this is 3:30:46.360 --> 3:30:49.039 sort of a burnout machine. This is a a way 3:30:49.120 --> 3:30:51.280 that you know, it's something that also just sort of 3:30:51.640 --> 3:30:55.280 feeds despair, which is that yeah, like you know like yeah, okay, 3:30:55.320 --> 3:30:57.720 your your victory is a small victory, but it is 3:30:57.800 --> 3:31:02.119 a real one and that's that's something that it even 3:31:02.200 --> 3:31:05.080 in the face of sort of like the Cyclopean horror 3:31:05.360 --> 3:31:08.320 of like just the world that we're living in, Like no, 3:31:09.000 --> 3:31:11.680 your your small victories dude lead up to bigger ones 3:31:12.440 --> 3:31:15.640 and yeah, and you know, and getting people to lose 3:31:15.680 --> 3:31:18.600 sight of that is a like it's it's in made 3:31:18.600 --> 3:31:21.080 your way. The system is held together by just sort 3:31:21.120 --> 3:31:24.480 of like manufacturing hopelessness, even when there there there are 3:31:24.560 --> 3:31:26.200 reasons for hope and there are reasons to sort of 3:31:27.800 --> 3:31:29.680 look at what you've done and go, hey, we we 3:31:29.840 --> 3:31:36.400 won this thing. Definitely. Yeah, I think that's a I 3:31:36.440 --> 3:31:40.240 guess unexpectedly cheery for the show not to end on 3:31:40.840 --> 3:31:47.200 do you have anything else? Yeah? I mean I think 3:31:47.240 --> 3:31:50.840 we touched on a lot um. I guess I have 3:31:51.440 --> 3:31:55.680 a usual pits or some version of it um. But 3:31:56.400 --> 3:32:05.800 I think, um, maybe something to bring together different elements 3:32:05.840 --> 3:32:10.640 that we touched on and bringing some of the sheery, 3:32:10.840 --> 3:32:15.360 hopefulness and also put out some encouragement too. I think 3:32:15.480 --> 3:32:19.240 now is a time where there's a whole lot of 3:32:19.360 --> 3:32:23.520 uncertainty and I'm uh, you know, definitely and a global 3:32:24.080 --> 3:32:26.680 week to week or year to year scale, but also 3:32:26.720 --> 3:32:29.320 on an individual level, I think a lot of individuals 3:32:29.440 --> 3:32:33.920 right now. UM, likely those that are listening UM, that 3:32:34.080 --> 3:32:37.120 that end up listening to this or UM those that 3:32:37.160 --> 3:32:38.920 are like seeing what's happening around the world, is like, 3:32:39.000 --> 3:32:41.120 what is my role in all of this? What am 3:32:41.160 --> 3:32:44.280 I trying to do? Different people are joining different organizations 3:32:44.600 --> 3:32:48.040 and and trying to figure out how they should be 3:32:48.080 --> 3:32:50.320 living their lives, what the what principles they should be 3:32:50.360 --> 3:32:54.240 living out, how they should be applying themselves to for example, UM, 3:32:54.720 --> 3:33:02.240 combat and dismantle UM, I don't know capitalism and and 3:33:02.520 --> 3:33:08.000 and uh you know, prison industrial complex and reverse climate 3:33:08.040 --> 3:33:12.840 destruction and find fascism and everything all of the existential 3:33:12.879 --> 3:33:15.040 threats that we face. It's like, what, you know, what 3:33:15.240 --> 3:33:22.520 is my role? And I think, UM, if if you 3:33:22.879 --> 3:33:33.680 at all have the capacity and curiosity, UM two, engage 3:33:33.760 --> 3:33:39.119 in some of this deep work yourself for building community relationships, 3:33:39.240 --> 3:33:44.720 culture among um, you know, just with workers, build building 3:33:44.760 --> 3:33:48.640 your own organization, building your own acts of resistance, building 3:33:48.680 --> 3:33:52.280 your own forms of of of you know, own forms 3:33:52.360 --> 3:33:56.640 of reclaiming your time and minds and bodies, and build 3:33:56.680 --> 3:33:58.840 something beautiful that can you know, be part of a 3:33:58.879 --> 3:34:02.920 broader movement that that you know, lifts up working people 3:34:03.240 --> 3:34:06.080 that kind of gets back what we are building and 3:34:06.160 --> 3:34:10.720 what we what we deserve. UM. You think about think 3:34:10.760 --> 3:34:15.240 about the logistics industry, think about warehouse work, UM, think 3:34:15.280 --> 3:34:20.840 about joining in UM and Uh you know it's uh, 3:34:21.120 --> 3:34:23.840 it's hard work. It's hard manual labor, it's hard mental 3:34:23.920 --> 3:34:30.720 and emotional work. UM. But I think this is the 3:34:30.959 --> 3:34:39.680 future of what the winning, fighting, uh successful labor movement 3:34:40.280 --> 3:34:45.480 UM will need. UM. And I think many people engaging 3:34:45.520 --> 3:34:51.320 in building more genuine, more worker focus, worker centered, worker 3:34:51.440 --> 3:34:57.640 run UH solidarity unions of our own democratic horizontal bottom 3:34:57.800 --> 3:35:01.640 up UM. I think building this way and connecting with 3:35:01.720 --> 3:35:03.240 each other, I think this is the way forward. I 3:35:03.280 --> 3:35:06.280 think this is the examples that we need. We need 3:35:06.400 --> 3:35:09.920 more people engaging in this work. We need more UM, 3:35:11.240 --> 3:35:14.560 more of that attention, energy and focus, Like how do 3:35:14.680 --> 3:35:18.440 we build the real stuff? UM. That's gonna be the 3:35:20.120 --> 3:35:25.879 powerful organizational influence to transform society and and avert these 3:35:25.920 --> 3:35:30.920 forms of extinction and continued extraction, exploitation, oppression of all 3:35:31.000 --> 3:35:37.119 of us. UM, join us, join join the struggle, get 3:35:37.240 --> 3:35:39.160 get some of these jobs. Talk to your co workers, 3:35:39.240 --> 3:35:45.160 build something that It's really that simple, UM And UH, yeah, 3:35:45.360 --> 3:35:51.800 that's my that's my every day pitch. Um. So if 3:35:51.840 --> 3:35:55.280 if people want to find Amazonians United specifically, where where 3:35:55.400 --> 3:36:00.200 where can they find y'all? Um, so in Chicago. So 3:36:00.600 --> 3:36:05.520 Amazonians United, Chicago Land, um is our name. We have 3:36:05.640 --> 3:36:08.800 a Facebook page, we have a Twitter. Um. Those are 3:36:08.879 --> 3:36:14.480 probably where we're most active. UM, and where you can 3:36:14.560 --> 3:36:16.880 follow and get into contact with us, tweet out us, 3:36:17.480 --> 3:36:23.520 message us on Facebook. UM. If you're really so inclined, UM, 3:36:23.640 --> 3:36:28.000 you can email us at a you Chicago Land at 3:36:28.120 --> 3:36:31.840 gmail dot com. Um. But otherwise, yeah, just look up, 3:36:32.080 --> 3:36:34.480 you know, follow our social media. You'll see what we 3:36:34.600 --> 3:36:38.640 post occasionally about what's going on. UM. And uh, you know, 3:36:38.760 --> 3:36:41.840 feel free to reach out, get into contact, asking any 3:36:41.920 --> 3:36:45.440 questions you might have. UM, and you know, let's connect, 3:36:45.480 --> 3:36:49.240 let's build community. Yeah. And that's that's a Chicagoland at 3:36:49.280 --> 3:36:54.600 a Chicago Land on Twitter by the way. Yeah. Um yeah, 3:36:54.720 --> 3:36:57.240 sweet Ted, thank you, thank you so thank you so 3:36:57.360 --> 3:37:01.160 much for joining me. Yeah. Thanks havn't me. Yeah, it's 3:37:01.200 --> 3:37:04.959 really great. Um. Yeah, if you want to find us 3:37:05.280 --> 3:37:08.920 at you can find us at having here, a pod 3:37:09.000 --> 3:37:14.760 on Twitter, Instagram and cool and media in the same places. UM. Yeah, 3:37:14.959 --> 3:37:18.199 go go go organize with your coworkers. Go do cool things, 3:37:18.280 --> 3:37:24.000 go be to a well a better place. Yes, yes, yes, sure, 3:37:24.879 --> 3:37:39.360 um yeah, thank you, thank you? Hey did you miss us? 3:37:40.240 --> 3:37:43.560 Truthans returns on March twenty two for season two. In 3:37:43.680 --> 3:37:46.680 its first season, the one of a kind of investigative podcast, 3:37:46.879 --> 3:37:50.520 hosted by comedians and real life friends Anna Sara Gina 3:37:50.760 --> 3:37:54.240 and kyle A Mazzono, dared to ask questions both mundane 3:37:54.560 --> 3:37:59.200 and extraordinary, questions like why are some people mean? And 3:37:59.360 --> 3:38:02.920 why does and fly by when you're having fun? And 3:38:03.080 --> 3:38:06.240 now they're back for what experts are calling one of 3:38:06.280 --> 3:38:09.560 the most dramatic seasons yet. Tune in as Anna and 3:38:09.720 --> 3:38:12.320 Kyle put their lives on the line in the name 3:38:12.680 --> 3:38:15.880 of pod. This season will have you and your girls 3:38:16.160 --> 3:38:18.360 saying things like I came over here as fast as 3:38:18.400 --> 3:38:21.120 I could. Are you okay? I'm okay? But did you 3:38:21.240 --> 3:38:23.920 hear what they did on Truetown Season two? Oh my god? 3:38:24.200 --> 3:38:30.199 Oh my god, Oh my god, oh my god. Listen 3:38:30.240 --> 3:38:32.240 to the True Towns and the I Heart Radio app, 3:38:32.400 --> 3:38:38.039 Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. I'm 3:38:38.040 --> 3:38:41.400 Elliott Caleb, comedian, author, history buff and host of the 3:38:41.480 --> 3:38:44.360 Who Was Podcast, a history quiz show based on the 3:38:44.400 --> 3:38:47.480 best selling book series where kid contestants go toe to 3:38:47.560 --> 3:38:50.680 toe for a chance to win fantastic prizes. My co 3:38:50.879 --> 3:38:54.920 host b and I asked the tough questions, like when 3:38:55.120 --> 3:38:58.600 Mozart right TikTok? But that's not all we talk about 3:38:58.640 --> 3:39:04.680 on the show. You really a signature? Look is BedHead? Alright? 3:39:04.720 --> 3:39:08.120 I like it? I do gymnastics and I have two scars. 3:39:08.959 --> 3:39:11.879 Are the scars from gymnastics? Where were you like wrestling 3:39:11.920 --> 3:39:15.520 dinosaurs and things like that? I really white kiss you. 3:39:15.840 --> 3:39:18.680 Even my mom says I know more than most adults too. 3:39:19.600 --> 3:39:22.920 We've got fun games, silly songs, and don't forget to 3:39:23.000 --> 3:39:28.879 mention our amazing guests. It's all I'm gonna throw a fame. 3:39:31.680 --> 3:39:37.320 How about everyone? It's me. I'll read the Franklin. Listen 3:39:37.440 --> 3:39:40.120 to the Who Was Podcast on the I Heart Radio 3:39:40.200 --> 3:39:46.440 app Apple podcast for Every Year podcast most podcast, because 3:39:46.640 --> 3:39:59.840 it's time to ard guard me arties. This is me. 3:40:00.000 --> 3:40:02.160 Are you doing a priorate voice? Which is kind of 3:40:02.640 --> 3:40:05.879 a bad a bad Irish voice. That's enough. That's enough 3:40:05.879 --> 3:40:09.080 of that. Um Hi, welcome to take it oppen. Here 3:40:09.120 --> 3:40:11.000 in the show where we're talking about things that could 3:40:11.200 --> 3:40:15.760 possibly happen and or are happening and go your harsh 3:40:16.000 --> 3:40:21.080 l D. I'm Carrison. Welcome to this tech centric episode. 3:40:21.160 --> 3:40:24.400 This is very exciting with me, is Chris to help 3:40:24.520 --> 3:40:30.600 us discuss libraries and piracy or permanently pirate brained and 3:40:30.840 --> 3:40:34.080 and pay walls and all this all this fun stuff. 3:40:34.560 --> 3:40:37.640 So yeah, we're talking about kind of free access to 3:40:37.800 --> 3:40:41.600 information and uh, I don't know, like I really like 3:40:41.760 --> 3:40:44.440 libraries and I think a library based economy would be 3:40:44.480 --> 3:40:48.680 pretty cool. Yeah, you know, libraries for everything. Uh, food 3:40:48.760 --> 3:40:53.040 libraries you to take food, you know, deposit compost. Um, 3:40:53.120 --> 3:40:57.120 it's the decent, decent system. Got the tool libraries so 3:40:57.240 --> 3:41:00.280 you can get you know, your angle grinders for taking 3:41:00.280 --> 3:41:02.520 apart in federal fences. You can get your you know, 3:41:03.160 --> 3:41:05.800 soldering irons for building your f GC nines, you know, 3:41:05.959 --> 3:41:08.400 all all of all of the basic stuff. And I 3:41:08.480 --> 3:41:11.360 guess book libraries are cool too. Um, but we already 3:41:11.400 --> 3:41:13.160 have those and we're gonna be We're gonna be talking 3:41:13.240 --> 3:41:14.960 with them a little bit. Where are we having a 3:41:15.000 --> 3:41:20.200 discussion on paywalls, piracy, ar and uh and how access 3:41:20.320 --> 3:41:24.200 information is actually good? Um, contrary to what many people 3:41:24.280 --> 3:41:29.240 want to tell you. Yeah, I know. So Yeah, as 3:41:29.360 --> 3:41:35.199 as the Internet became easier to access and information flow accelerated. 3:41:35.720 --> 3:41:40.480 There's been kind of questions and speculation on how physical 3:41:40.560 --> 3:41:45.320 book libraries will fit into our increasingly digital media landscape. Now, 3:41:45.400 --> 3:41:47.680 it's important to mention that the library is also one 3:41:47.760 --> 3:41:50.720 of the main ways for lower income people to access 3:41:50.840 --> 3:41:53.879 the internet, um, with their you know, collection of free 3:41:53.920 --> 3:41:56.160 to use computers as well as you know, a decent 3:41:56.240 --> 3:42:00.520 WiFi connection UM and many many libraries all so are 3:42:00.600 --> 3:42:04.000 expanding their scope to include stuff like maker spaces as 3:42:04.080 --> 3:42:06.360 well as you know, their printers and standard kind of 3:42:06.440 --> 3:42:10.800 office supplies. So libraries are already kind of beyond just 3:42:11.280 --> 3:42:13.760 places to get printed media. But of course it is 3:42:13.920 --> 3:42:15.920 that is kind of there one that has been their 3:42:15.959 --> 3:42:18.640 main their main premise, but you know, they've been they've 3:42:18.680 --> 3:42:23.440 been including stuff regarding e books, computer use, WiFi access, 3:42:23.480 --> 3:42:25.640 all the stuff has been a part of libraries for 3:42:25.800 --> 3:42:29.520 like the past years. Um. Yeah, like it's it's not, 3:42:29.760 --> 3:42:31.480 it's not, it's not, it's not. It's not a new thing. 3:42:31.680 --> 3:42:33.360 But I think when when people think of libraries, we 3:42:33.440 --> 3:42:36.480 just think of books are newspapers and stuff, but it is, 3:42:36.560 --> 3:42:39.520 it is definitely more than that. Because yeah, obviously physical 3:42:39.560 --> 3:42:42.760 libraries are mostly known for printing materials. And because we'll 3:42:42.760 --> 3:42:47.000 be talking about paywalls and piracy are um and and 3:42:47.200 --> 3:42:50.879 fears that access to free content will negatively impact creator's 3:42:50.920 --> 3:42:53.800 ability to make such content. I figured let's start by 3:42:53.840 --> 3:42:56.440 talking about book libraries, since they're one of the oldest 3:42:56.480 --> 3:43:01.080 examples of providing information for free. So based on kind 3:43:01.120 --> 3:43:04.480 of surveys and data collected from you from library users 3:43:04.520 --> 3:43:08.240 across the country, it would seem that libraries and loaned 3:43:08.400 --> 3:43:11.600 e books are actually a very powerful economic engine for 3:43:11.800 --> 3:43:15.080 the book business. Now, yes, libraries do have special deals 3:43:15.160 --> 3:43:16.920 to buy the books that they you have in stock, 3:43:17.160 --> 3:43:21.920 sometimes they're donated. But even beyond that fact, like library users, 3:43:22.040 --> 3:43:25.080 like the fact that libraries exist for the users in 3:43:25.200 --> 3:43:29.160 and of themselves increase book sales. Um, it's it's a 3:43:29.400 --> 3:43:32.400 it's it's pretty fun. So even as far back as 3:43:33.200 --> 3:43:37.640 there's been studies that show that libraries do increase book sales. Now, yes, 3:43:37.760 --> 3:43:40.800 this is this is this is a capitalist argument. But 3:43:41.040 --> 3:43:44.760 sometimes when arguing with let's you know, let's call them normies, um, 3:43:44.840 --> 3:43:46.560 you can convince them to agree with a lot of 3:43:46.680 --> 3:43:50.520 kind of like anarchy leaning improvements to the world by 3:43:50.600 --> 3:43:53.160 carefully using their own rhetoric against them, right, this is 3:43:53.240 --> 3:43:55.680 this is like the same thing with the giving out 3:43:55.760 --> 3:43:59.800 free drugs and having safe drug in in like intake sites, 3:44:00.240 --> 3:44:02.400 and giving houses to homeless people, you know, all all 3:44:02.440 --> 3:44:04.440 the type of stuff. You know, all of those things 3:44:04.680 --> 3:44:07.560 are cheaper for the taxpayer than what we're currently doing 3:44:07.640 --> 3:44:10.240 with how we use emergencies, like how for how we 3:44:10.320 --> 3:44:13.879 use emergency services spending. So yes, it's a capitalist argument, 3:44:14.120 --> 3:44:16.360 but you can still kind of you know, paint someone 3:44:16.400 --> 3:44:19.680 into a corner to to agree that like actual good 3:44:19.720 --> 3:44:22.840 improvements by using hey, this is actually cheaper, you know 3:44:23.160 --> 3:44:27.000 that that type of argument. So yeah, libraries they do 3:44:27.120 --> 3:44:30.120 increase book sales, so that is mostly cool. There is 3:44:30.320 --> 3:44:32.680 There was a study that shows around this is studying 3:44:32.680 --> 3:44:37.440 around showed that library users report purchasing books by an 3:44:37.480 --> 3:44:40.320 author that they were introduced to through the library system, 3:44:41.000 --> 3:44:43.640 which debunks the myth that want a library bias books 3:44:43.959 --> 3:44:47.680 the publisher will lose future sales um Instead, it confirms 3:44:47.800 --> 3:44:51.000 that the public library does not only incubate and support 3:44:51.040 --> 3:44:53.879 literacy as it's you know, generally understood in our culture, 3:44:54.000 --> 3:44:56.440 but it's also an active partner with the publishing industry 3:44:57.320 --> 3:45:00.600 for building up the book market, and also so including 3:45:00.600 --> 3:45:03.879 in that is the ever growing e book market, which 3:45:04.200 --> 3:45:06.320 I don't really like the books for reasons will kind 3:45:06.360 --> 3:45:08.080 of discuss in a bit for how I kind of 3:45:08.160 --> 3:45:11.119 have an aversion to the idea of like a digital ownership. 3:45:11.600 --> 3:45:15.840 But the books are undeniably a very growing industry that 3:45:16.000 --> 3:45:20.240 also you know, does does support writers in a lot 3:45:20.280 --> 3:45:22.760 of ways. Um, but I think physical books are a 3:45:22.840 --> 3:45:26.320 lot cooler and more reliable. They are, as you can 3:45:26.360 --> 3:45:28.720 tell by my very nice physical book collection behind me, 3:45:29.000 --> 3:45:31.359 which you cannot listen to because this is a podcast 3:45:31.400 --> 3:45:33.560 and you can't listen with your ears unless you're on 3:45:33.600 --> 3:45:36.160 a lot of drugs, which good luck hearing the books 3:45:36.160 --> 3:45:41.480 behind me. People who listen to yeah you too, But 3:45:41.760 --> 3:45:45.160 yeah I'm not. I'm not talking about them. Um, this 3:45:45.360 --> 3:45:49.040 is an anti people who have jug induced cynthesia podcast. 3:45:49.680 --> 3:45:56.400 Now Lucky Bastard's gonna get canceled. Yeah, that's what's gonna 3:45:56.400 --> 3:46:00.520 get me after all. Well bleep that I can't you 3:46:00.560 --> 3:46:05.040 said that? Whoa Chris just said one of the just 3:46:05.360 --> 3:46:07.480 one of the most one of the most one of 3:46:07.520 --> 3:46:09.760 the most horrible authors that I would never be caught 3:46:09.840 --> 3:46:15.680 dead reading any of their books. Um, anyway. Ah, So 3:46:17.280 --> 3:46:20.840 the idea that like piracy and free information will like 3:46:21.440 --> 3:46:25.440 tank creative industries, and you know, the idea that you know, 3:46:25.560 --> 3:46:29.360 just having access to free versions of media will hurt 3:46:29.480 --> 3:46:32.360 the ability to make more of the media is definitely 3:46:32.480 --> 3:46:36.640 proven wrong simply by the modern existence and popularity of 3:46:36.959 --> 3:46:40.840 nu may uh in the United States, because we would 3:46:40.840 --> 3:46:42.840 not have anime Animal will not be what it is 3:46:42.920 --> 3:46:46.880 today without piracy. Uh and uh because in the in 3:46:46.959 --> 3:46:49.960 the specifically like two thousands, late nineties, the piracy of 3:46:50.040 --> 3:46:53.800 anime became you know, big massive reason why it is 3:46:53.840 --> 3:46:56.440 the cultural jug or not that it is today over 3:46:56.680 --> 3:47:00.160 half of nime related sales revenue comes from overseas. Is 3:47:00.280 --> 3:47:04.160 not not Japan. It comes from places like the States. Yeah, 3:47:04.200 --> 3:47:05.600 and you know, and it's also what I think worth 3:47:05.640 --> 3:47:08.760 mentioning here, Like it wasn't even just that they were 3:47:08.840 --> 3:47:11.800 like pirating the show, right, they were pirating they were 3:47:11.840 --> 3:47:17.320 getting a worse version of it, oh because like you know, yeah, 3:47:17.440 --> 3:47:21.000 terrible resolutions like I mean literally like VCRs that people 3:47:21.080 --> 3:47:24.080 had figured out how to like right like get subtitles on. 3:47:24.280 --> 3:47:27.160 Like these versions of it are terrible. The translations are awful, 3:47:27.200 --> 3:47:31.760 and it's still just like absolutely like just catapulted anime 3:47:32.000 --> 3:47:35.400 from like an incredibly fringed thing for weirdos to a 3:47:35.560 --> 3:47:37.720 thing that is also still for weirdos, but it's still 3:47:37.800 --> 3:47:41.880 largely mainstream. Yeah, I'm gonna gonna take take this opportunity 3:47:41.959 --> 3:47:46.040 to plug our future episode just dissecting the politics of 3:47:46.400 --> 3:47:54.400 attack on tited dot dot. It's coming, folks, It's strap in. So, yes, 3:47:56.120 --> 3:47:57.720 what not would not be the thing is today without 3:47:57.760 --> 3:48:01.680 without without privacy and again but the majority of of 3:48:01.959 --> 3:48:06.879 sales revenue comes from not Japan. So yeah, that's that's 3:48:06.920 --> 3:48:11.360 a pretty pretty pretty clear. So the discovery of new 3:48:11.440 --> 3:48:14.640 books and authors through the library system um is definitely 3:48:14.680 --> 3:48:17.720 searching right now, actually specifically due to e books and 3:48:17.879 --> 3:48:23.920 audio books being available online anytime, well like via library means. 3:48:24.040 --> 3:48:25.600 So there's like, you know, there's there's ways you can 3:48:25.680 --> 3:48:28.800 access you can quote unquote borrow these types of things 3:48:29.000 --> 3:48:32.680 via via the library systems, despite them being like digital media, 3:48:33.240 --> 3:48:36.080 which again I prefer physical, but that's that's something we'll 3:48:36.080 --> 3:48:40.680 talk about later. So even even while visits to libraries 3:48:40.800 --> 3:48:45.119 and like physical bookstores A pommeted during COVID nineteen digital 3:48:45.200 --> 3:48:47.600 library usage sword, which is you know that that that 3:48:47.800 --> 3:48:51.120 that that that tracks um more than four hundred and 3:48:51.320 --> 3:48:56.320 thirty million titles were borrowed from the Overdrive library platform 3:48:56.680 --> 3:49:00.280 in alone, and it would you know it, You could 3:49:00.400 --> 3:49:03.720 you could assume that this would cause a drop in 3:49:03.800 --> 3:49:06.840 the purchasing of books during the same period, but the 3:49:06.840 --> 3:49:10.120 opposite is true. Actually, the overall purchasing of books also 3:49:10.240 --> 3:49:13.920 rose in including an eight percent lift in these sales 3:49:14.000 --> 3:49:16.600 of print books, despite a lot of people being out 3:49:16.640 --> 3:49:18.960 of jobs, out of work. You know that turns out 3:49:19.200 --> 3:49:21.200 people are boards They're going to spend money on books 3:49:21.200 --> 3:49:24.200 because books are cool, and even when they have access 3:49:24.240 --> 3:49:27.960 to library stuff, they still buy books. Yep, it's a. 3:49:28.200 --> 3:49:30.920 It's a it's a simple truth that the library patrons 3:49:31.000 --> 3:49:34.160 are usually also book buyers. It's it's me. I am 3:49:34.400 --> 3:49:37.120 literally surrounded by books on all sides that they have 3:49:37.240 --> 3:49:39.840 me surrounded. I have no escape. And this is what 3:49:39.880 --> 3:49:41.920 happens when you grow up in a library. I mean 3:49:41.960 --> 3:49:43.480 I also grew up in a library. Mean I was, 3:49:43.520 --> 3:49:46.960 I was homeschooled. I grew a library. To my to 3:49:47.200 --> 3:49:49.840 to my left, I have books on urban exploration and 3:49:50.000 --> 3:49:54.040 Lemony Snicket. My right, I have books on alchemy. Behind me, 3:49:54.240 --> 3:49:56.840 I have books which I should I'll not name um 3:49:57.480 --> 3:50:00.000 and behind me I have a massive techo comic book 3:50:00.560 --> 3:50:03.680 of Yeah, I have usually surrounded by books. It's the 3:50:03.880 --> 3:50:06.840 books are great and you you have them unless they 3:50:06.920 --> 3:50:09.160 burn up. You're gonna have them, no matter whether the 3:50:09.280 --> 3:50:13.000 Internet goes out, whether whether an online provider shuts down, 3:50:13.120 --> 3:50:15.560 you're gonna You're gonna have physical books. They are they are, 3:50:15.680 --> 3:50:20.160 they are pretty, they're pretty cool. So in libraries and like, 3:50:20.200 --> 3:50:23.560 the library system offers a really great way to discover 3:50:23.760 --> 3:50:27.680 new books, new series, new genres, or new authors before 3:50:27.760 --> 3:50:30.800 deciding whether to permanently purchase those titles. So it's it's 3:50:30.880 --> 3:50:32.880 this isn't just like an assumption used to hype up 3:50:32.920 --> 3:50:35.720 the idea of a library. But this has been proven 3:50:35.760 --> 3:50:37.240 by lots of studies, like the why I mentioned a 3:50:37.280 --> 3:50:39.840 few minutes ago from two US and eleven m. Also 3:50:40.040 --> 3:50:45.920 there was the Panorama Projects Immersive Media and Books Consumer Survey, 3:50:46.040 --> 3:50:49.840 which is a way too long the title real Mouthful, 3:50:50.080 --> 3:50:53.040 which found that one third of responders bought a book 3:50:53.320 --> 3:50:56.960 that they discovered through the library in So it turns 3:50:57.000 --> 3:50:58.840 out you you discover a book, you turn it and 3:50:58.840 --> 3:51:00.600 you're like, hey, that book actually pretty all just buy 3:51:00.600 --> 3:51:03.440 a copy myself. I did that. I still do that 3:51:03.520 --> 3:51:07.280 all the time. It's a yeah, it's it's it's it's 3:51:07.400 --> 3:51:09.360 it's a thing. So why I own all my Star 3:51:09.440 --> 3:51:13.560 Wars books. This is why I have a beautiful copy 3:51:13.600 --> 3:51:18.200 of Splinter in the Mind's Eye, which I am very 3:51:18.280 --> 3:51:22.000 curious to see. Who will get that joke? I was. 3:51:22.160 --> 3:51:23.560 I was trying to think of the worst Star worst 3:51:23.560 --> 3:51:24.680 book that I have, and then you said that, and 3:51:24.680 --> 3:51:29.080 I'm like, I can't. I think I actually have that. Well, 3:51:29.120 --> 3:51:31.960 there I go, there's there's two. There's two for you 3:51:32.720 --> 3:51:37.280 to uh. Yeah. So in our kind of in our 3:51:37.320 --> 3:51:40.000 life technology driven world of like, you know, wanting things 3:51:40.160 --> 3:51:44.320 very quickly, you know, instant instant gratification. UM library users 3:51:44.680 --> 3:51:47.840 are no different. Right, they still have that instant gratification 3:51:47.960 --> 3:51:50.480 drive and many times they will want a specific a 3:51:50.520 --> 3:51:52.880 book and they'll be happy to pay for it instead 3:51:52.920 --> 3:51:55.360 of waiting for at the library. Right, you can put 3:51:55.400 --> 3:51:57.200 a book on hold await a month, or you can 3:51:57.280 --> 3:51:59.520 buy it for ten bucks, and oftentimes people will buy 3:51:59.560 --> 3:52:02.920 the book because we want things quickly. It's according to 3:52:03.000 --> 3:52:06.360 the same Panorama Project immers of the Media and Books 3:52:07.000 --> 3:52:12.400 consumer survey, about of respondents said that they just bought 3:52:12.440 --> 3:52:16.040 books rather than waiting for them if they are unavailable 3:52:16.160 --> 3:52:20.400 from from the library at the time. So and it's 3:52:20.520 --> 3:52:23.360 it's it's a great system. Like libraries are also frequently 3:52:23.400 --> 3:52:25.680 used just as like a really good browsing tool. Um. 3:52:25.840 --> 3:52:27.200 You know, if you're unsure of what you want to 3:52:27.240 --> 3:52:29.680 read next, you can go to library, look at stuff 3:52:29.680 --> 3:52:31.120 and be like, Okay, this is what I'm interested in, 3:52:31.560 --> 3:52:34.520 and then purchase it online or in person at a 3:52:34.640 --> 3:52:37.960 later date. And it's not just it's not not not 3:52:38.080 --> 3:52:42.400 not just physical books. Library users are also are also 3:52:42.480 --> 3:52:46.080 driving the purchase e books and physical books um and 3:52:46.200 --> 3:52:49.000 audio books. Audio books have been actually very big at library. 3:52:49.000 --> 3:52:50.320 I used to listen to a lot of audio books 3:52:50.320 --> 3:52:53.240 actually from the library because I would get c d 3:52:53.520 --> 3:52:57.560 s back when those great for road trips, back in 3:52:57.600 --> 3:53:01.120 the old days when you had a CD, I say 3:53:01.360 --> 3:53:07.840 with my gen z uh um outlook yes uh CDs 3:53:07.960 --> 3:53:12.520 classic Classic. According to the Audio Publishers Association also known 3:53:12.600 --> 3:53:17.840 as the a P A just acronym, daily audio consumption 3:53:18.280 --> 3:53:22.760 has grown seventy one since which is not surprising me. 3:53:22.840 --> 3:53:24.800 Like there's there's there's stuff like Audible and you know, 3:53:24.960 --> 3:53:29.440 big big platforms that are are making high quality audiobook content. Uh, 3:53:29.800 --> 3:53:35.960 but that's that's that's a lot in alone. Audiobook revenue 3:53:36.320 --> 3:53:39.680 grew by sevent even even though the number of people 3:53:40.200 --> 3:53:42.640 who were commuting plummeted, right because a lot of people 3:53:42.640 --> 3:53:44.800 listen to audiobooks while like driving to work. So the 3:53:44.920 --> 3:53:48.040 number of you know, of commuting dropped in because there 3:53:48.080 --> 3:53:49.640 was this plague. I'm not sure if you've heard about that, 3:53:50.520 --> 3:53:55.920 but they know that's true. They're pretending it's not real. 3:53:56.760 --> 3:53:58.720 But if yeah, if if, if, if you look at 3:53:58.760 --> 3:54:02.520 most if you look at you know, the the audiobook revenue, 3:54:02.640 --> 3:54:07.320 it grew despite their being much less, much less, much 3:54:07.400 --> 3:54:10.560 less work commuting. And that was the eighth straight year 3:54:10.640 --> 3:54:13.640 of double of double digit growth in the audio book 3:54:14.080 --> 3:54:17.120 revenue sector. And it aligns with other kind of digital 3:54:17.200 --> 3:54:22.400 library usage statistics. So yeah, like libraries and booksellers, will 3:54:22.920 --> 3:54:27.400 they work in tandem. They they library's drive interest for 3:54:27.680 --> 3:54:31.600 content both physical and digital. You know, rising tide races 3:54:31.680 --> 3:54:35.240 all all of those floaty things on the water. Um 3:54:35.440 --> 3:54:42.320 as the saying goes are it's a piracy joke, everybody. Yeah, 3:54:42.760 --> 3:54:45.640 over drive has found that when a reader uses one 3:54:45.720 --> 3:54:48.640 or more digital library apps like a Libby I've never 3:54:48.680 --> 3:54:50.920 heard of until I had to research on this podcast. 3:54:51.280 --> 3:54:53.920 But once you if you use more than one one 3:54:54.000 --> 3:54:57.200 or more digit digital library apps you're sixty, you are 3:54:58.080 --> 3:55:01.280 more likely to increase your book resumption year over year 3:55:01.560 --> 3:55:03.480 versus people who do not. So yeah, it turns out 3:55:03.520 --> 3:55:05.280 when you read more books, you want to read more 3:55:05.360 --> 3:55:10.960 books because it's fun. It's fun. So instead of instead 3:55:10.960 --> 3:55:12.920 of reading a book, I'm going to give our audio 3:55:13.120 --> 3:55:15.960 listeners an opportunity right now to listen to this carefully 3:55:16.040 --> 3:55:19.840 curated selection of ads unless they're by like I don't know, 3:55:20.040 --> 3:55:22.800 the National Guard or whatever. So here you go. Here's 3:55:22.920 --> 3:55:26.560 here's some ads, and we are back. What a lovely, 3:55:26.760 --> 3:55:31.480 lovely collection of audio treats to tickle your ears. Okay, okay, 3:55:31.640 --> 3:55:38.160 you're God speaking speaking of tickling your ears. Sonic the Hedgehog. 3:55:38.480 --> 3:55:42.080 So a lot of a lot of the reasons why 3:55:42.600 --> 3:55:46.560 we're gonna so this this this will make sense, I promise, um. 3:55:47.040 --> 3:55:54.840 We're about to talk about fly genetics, Sshnic Hedgehog. We're 3:55:54.880 --> 3:55:57.560 talking about how like when people are allowed to like 3:55:57.680 --> 3:56:00.600 do piracy and allowed to do like their own things 3:56:00.640 --> 3:56:03.280 with media and actually boosts the overall kind of like 3:56:03.480 --> 3:56:06.760 the presence of the franchise, right, So Sonic the Hedgehog 3:56:06.800 --> 3:56:09.680 would not be a current cultural steak if it wasn't 3:56:09.720 --> 3:56:12.320 for fan culture and the use of like fan games 3:56:12.440 --> 3:56:15.480 and fan media related to Sonic. So this the same 3:56:15.560 --> 3:56:19.000 thing was like anime. Right. Um, you know, Sonic Sonic 3:56:19.040 --> 3:56:20.920 fan games which were allowed to be existed for years, 3:56:20.960 --> 3:56:23.280 which they get encouraged, are the only reason why there's 3:56:23.280 --> 3:56:25.400 a good Sonic games right now, like Sonic Mania, which 3:56:25.440 --> 3:56:28.320 were just they just hired people who made fan games. Um, 3:56:28.720 --> 3:56:31.200 the person who redesigned Sonic the Hedgehog for the movie 3:56:31.560 --> 3:56:36.280 what used to make Sonic fan comics and then got 3:56:36.360 --> 3:56:38.640 hired to make the actual official Sonic comics. Then they 3:56:38.680 --> 3:56:40.880 got hired to fix them. They got hired to fix 3:56:40.960 --> 3:56:44.480 the horrible movie design. So yeah, say it has been 3:56:44.560 --> 3:56:48.760 very good about like not being horrible about like copyright 3:56:48.800 --> 3:56:51.480 stuff and trademark stuff. They've like really encouraged it because 3:56:51.600 --> 3:56:54.440 it turns out when you when you yourself don't make 3:56:54.480 --> 3:56:57.760 good games, you need to rely on fans to actually 3:56:57.840 --> 3:57:00.160 make the good games. So we get we so wee 3:57:00.240 --> 3:57:03.080 that's how you get beautiful creations like the Sonic Dreams collection, 3:57:03.240 --> 3:57:06.280 which is a heartwarming, nostalgic look at Sonic through the 3:57:06.320 --> 3:57:11.040 Ages um and other great games like Sonic Mania, which, 3:57:11.160 --> 3:57:14.960 so we can compare this to like a Nintendo who 3:57:15.160 --> 3:57:19.080 unfortunately makes good games um, but also hates when fans 3:57:19.160 --> 3:57:22.000 make games or do like emulation or any like ports. 3:57:22.360 --> 3:57:25.800 They will clamp down on that so fast. If you 3:57:26.000 --> 3:57:29.560 ever emulate the Nintendo game, you know, watch Watch your back, 3:57:30.040 --> 3:57:32.360 there will be there will be men in black studits 3:57:32.400 --> 3:57:36.360 following you around, just you know, like to do understanding 3:57:36.400 --> 3:57:38.680 of like how far this goes? Right, So super smash 3:57:38.720 --> 3:57:42.280 Bros And Bile. This game is like maybe older than Garrison. 3:57:42.520 --> 3:57:45.200 It is. I think I actually don't know what that treade, 3:57:45.240 --> 3:57:47.560 but yeah, literally old and Garrison, right, this game has 3:57:47.640 --> 3:57:50.960 a still still to this day, Like copies of this 3:57:51.000 --> 3:57:53.720 game are extremely expensive because there's an enormous professional scene 3:57:53.720 --> 3:57:58.720 around it. Uh. Nintendo like basically was working to actively 3:57:58.840 --> 3:58:02.640 smash them because they were they were playing a yeah yeah, 3:58:03.080 --> 3:58:05.240 because they because they were playing on like an emulated 3:58:05.840 --> 3:58:08.000 like they're playing an emulated version of it for tournaments 3:58:08.040 --> 3:58:12.880 because emulated software. Yeah yeah. And Nintendo again, who is 3:58:13.080 --> 3:58:17.240 literally getting like millions of views of completely free good 3:58:17.320 --> 3:58:21.440 publicity was like, no, we hate you. Nintendo will like 3:58:21.880 --> 3:58:25.560 this when people use they're they're like their their content 3:58:25.640 --> 3:58:27.640 and stuff in ways that are not not non official. 3:58:28.360 --> 3:58:30.720 And because they make decent games, they can actually get 3:58:30.760 --> 3:58:33.920 away with that. Um, Sega, let's not make decent games 3:58:34.000 --> 3:58:36.400 that are questioning, So they have to rely on fans 3:58:36.480 --> 3:58:38.600 doing that. But yeah, that's the reason why Sonic is 3:58:38.640 --> 3:58:41.080 still a thing, just because fans have have been able 3:58:41.160 --> 3:58:45.000 to you know, through through piracy, through emulation, through creating, 3:58:45.240 --> 3:58:48.000 through ucing like Sonic code to code their own games 3:58:48.360 --> 3:58:50.600 all stuffs. Is the reason why that's still like a 3:58:50.680 --> 3:58:53.480 cultural staple that is releasing a new movie next month. 3:58:53.560 --> 3:58:55.640 But I'm very excited about I'm very excited about some 3:58:55.800 --> 3:58:58.000 Sonic the Headshug too. It's gonna be, It's gonna be. 3:58:58.440 --> 3:59:01.120 I'm thinking, I'm thinking it could we could finally clamp 3:59:01.160 --> 3:59:04.720 down on the video game Oscar this time. I feel it. Well, 3:59:04.840 --> 3:59:06.760 that's that's look, this is this this this is just 3:59:06.960 --> 3:59:11.160 because Ace Attorney got Robbed. Okay, greatest movie of all time. 3:59:13.160 --> 3:59:15.560 That is that is my little side bit about about 3:59:15.920 --> 3:59:20.200 about about Sega. Um. Yeah, we should also briefly mentioned 3:59:20.280 --> 3:59:22.640 that Nintendo just like put literally put a guy in 3:59:22.760 --> 3:59:26.880 prison for helping for helping jailibrate consoles like put put 3:59:26.960 --> 3:59:31.680 a man in prison for this for modifying people's software 3:59:31.680 --> 3:59:33.680 and a game console. I guess the other thing I'll 3:59:33.720 --> 3:59:36.320 talk about is, like, I mean, part of the reason 3:59:36.320 --> 3:59:38.480 why I really don't like digital ordership of media is 3:59:38.480 --> 3:59:41.280 because you don't actually own the thing. You own a 3:59:41.400 --> 3:59:44.040 license to use the content as long as the online 3:59:44.080 --> 3:59:46.520 services active. So even if you buy a game on 3:59:47.240 --> 3:59:50.160 you know, the Nintendo Switch Store, you're not actually buying 3:59:50.200 --> 3:59:52.000 the game, you're buying a license to use the game. 3:59:52.280 --> 3:59:54.200 The same thing for whether you're buying media on like 3:59:54.280 --> 3:59:56.960 Amazon Prime, right, it's it's it's it's the same thing 3:59:57.040 --> 3:59:58.680 if if you're if you're buying digital copy of it, 3:59:59.080 --> 4:00:01.440 it's a license to use it, so you can take 4:00:01.600 --> 4:00:03.960 You know, what Nintendo has done a few years ago 4:00:04.280 --> 4:00:07.040 is they shut down the U Shop channel, which means 4:00:07.080 --> 4:00:09.160 if you bought a game and it wasn't creanty downloaded, 4:00:09.480 --> 4:00:11.600 you can now you've just it's gone. You just cannot 4:00:11.640 --> 4:00:13.720 you cannot play it anymore because they just completely took 4:00:13.800 --> 4:00:16.600 service down. So you don't actually you're not you're not 4:00:16.600 --> 4:00:18.440 actually buying the thing, you're just buying license to use 4:00:18.480 --> 4:00:20.720 the thing. Now. They did the same thing a few 4:00:20.760 --> 4:00:23.440 months ago for the w U Shop channel and the 4:00:23.520 --> 4:00:26.960 three D S channel. So yeah, rip ripped to that. 4:00:27.800 --> 4:00:30.160 If you, if you, if you have, if you bought 4:00:30.200 --> 4:00:33.360 games on there that we're not currently running, then you 4:00:33.440 --> 4:00:35.360 cannot get them anymore. They're just gone, like you can, 4:00:35.480 --> 4:00:38.360 they're just lost, lost of time. Well and you know, 4:00:38.440 --> 4:00:40.760 and again if if you, if you modified the software 4:00:40.840 --> 4:00:43.400 on the game console that you like nominally own in 4:00:43.560 --> 4:00:45.560 order to play the games that you bought and paid for, 4:00:45.680 --> 4:00:48.240 they will throw you in prison. Nintendo will send men 4:00:48.320 --> 4:00:51.200 in suits to come and get you and throw you 4:00:51.320 --> 4:00:56.080 in the prison. Yeah. Who he it's a it's a Mario. 4:00:56.160 --> 4:01:00.480 It's a Mario joke, everybody. Um. Yes, So it's the 4:01:00.520 --> 4:01:02.880 same thing with like subscription services. Like obviously, if you 4:01:02.920 --> 4:01:05.880 have a subscription service, you don't own the content you're watching. 4:01:06.080 --> 4:01:08.200 You are just getting permission to use it from a 4:01:08.200 --> 4:01:10.440 certain amount of time. So this is obviously, this is 4:01:10.520 --> 4:01:13.400 this is more obvious. Right, you don't owe what's on Netflix. 4:01:13.440 --> 4:01:16.200 You just are able to watch what Netflix has legal 4:01:16.320 --> 4:01:19.000 rights to show. But you even see this thing extended 4:01:19.040 --> 4:01:23.800 to like cars, like Toyota was was trying out a 4:01:23.840 --> 4:01:26.640 program and that this may even it may even still 4:01:26.640 --> 4:01:29.520 be active for some cars where you need a subscription 4:01:29.560 --> 4:01:33.760 service to use the key fob on your cars like 4:01:33.840 --> 4:01:37.240 automatic like like door locking like fob, like you need 4:01:37.280 --> 4:01:40.280 a subscription to use that service of it. Just like why, 4:01:40.440 --> 4:01:43.680 Like it's it's just turning everything, it's turning everything into 4:01:43.800 --> 4:01:46.160 us to us like a subscription service. It's horrible, like 4:01:46.200 --> 4:01:49.440 everything is becoming a new subscription service, a new a 4:01:49.480 --> 4:01:51.720 new thing to get your monthly payments for. It's it's 4:01:51.880 --> 4:01:55.320 it's awful, like you don't actually buy things anymore. It's 4:01:55.360 --> 4:01:59.160 just a subscription services and digital copies. It's not nothing 4:01:59.320 --> 4:02:02.040 is nothing is actually the thing anymore? Yeah, it's it's 4:02:02.080 --> 4:02:05.280 it's all just rent extraction and the entire economy. Instead 4:02:05.320 --> 4:02:07.480 of you know, having a thing, they figured out way, 4:02:07.520 --> 4:02:09.800 what if we just distract rent and then you also 4:02:09.920 --> 4:02:11.960 don't own it. The same thing with like Tesla cars 4:02:12.000 --> 4:02:15.920 you have to like buy by you know, upgrades via 4:02:16.240 --> 4:02:19.880 software that are already built in and like subscribe to 4:02:20.000 --> 4:02:23.960 keep your car running nicely. Like what it's not like no, yeah, 4:02:24.360 --> 4:02:26.320 like I'm gonna I'm gonna go on a very small 4:02:26.400 --> 4:02:28.840 gamer rent here because this this is a this is 4:02:28.880 --> 4:02:30.840 a thing. A lot a lot of the worst practices 4:02:30.880 --> 4:02:33.480 for this origidated gaming and this this was this was 4:02:33.560 --> 4:02:35.680 a big fight back in like the early thousand pens 4:02:35.720 --> 4:02:38.320 about okay, if you buy a game, right, do you 4:02:38.520 --> 4:02:41.040 own everything on the game? And there was a huge 4:02:41.080 --> 4:02:43.960 fight about you know, they'd have these like delayed DLC, 4:02:44.240 --> 4:02:46.000 like they have these new content packages that would be 4:02:46.080 --> 4:02:47.880 on the disc right that you've bought, but you can't 4:02:47.920 --> 4:02:50.480 access it unless you pay the money. And this was 4:02:50.560 --> 4:02:53.680 like a fight and some gamers were like, you know, 4:02:53.720 --> 4:02:56.640 they're trying to fight it, right, but most gamers didn't care. 4:02:56.840 --> 4:02:58.840 And then they became the weaponized shock troops to the 4:02:58.880 --> 4:03:00.760 far right instead of you know, dealing with this ship. 4:03:00.840 --> 4:03:03.240 And now literally everything has fucking day and day one 4:03:03.320 --> 4:03:06.000 DLC on it that you buy the thing, you don't 4:03:06.040 --> 4:03:08.240 even get all you have to you have to buy 4:03:08.320 --> 4:03:10.440 the if you have to buy the season pass to 4:03:10.600 --> 4:03:12.920 get all the content in the future. It's like you 4:03:12.960 --> 4:03:14.560 have to buy the season pass for your car to 4:03:14.640 --> 4:03:18.520 work properly. Yeah, so this is just how it started 4:03:18.560 --> 4:03:21.000 with start started with the season past for sixty for 4:03:21.040 --> 4:03:23.520 a sixty dollar game to then buy season pass to 4:03:23.560 --> 4:03:26.440 get more of the game, and now it's for your 4:03:29.200 --> 4:03:33.480 So yeah, that's fun. It's it's not, it's it's kind 4:03:33.480 --> 4:03:35.920 of sucks. So but yeah, a lot of these, a 4:03:36.000 --> 4:03:38.240 lot of these like play to win practices, these like 4:03:38.400 --> 4:03:41.160 free models which then like which lead into like a 4:03:41.200 --> 4:03:45.000 subscription service based model. Um have did have definitely started 4:03:45.160 --> 4:03:49.320 in online gaming, and it's yeah, it's it's really frustrating 4:03:49.400 --> 4:03:52.800 because as we'll talk about here in a bit, like 4:03:54.040 --> 4:03:56.720 the Sega model is like better, Like turns out when 4:03:56.760 --> 4:03:59.960 you encourage your fans to play around with the stuff, 4:04:00.480 --> 4:04:02.640 it only helps your property. Like that's the reason why 4:04:02.720 --> 4:04:04.960 they there's still Sonic March available now and it's not 4:04:05.080 --> 4:04:07.560 like a dead franchise. It's because they like because they 4:04:07.560 --> 4:04:10.160 allowed that to happen. So it's actually really cool when 4:04:10.200 --> 4:04:12.560 we're allowed to access free information and play with it 4:04:12.840 --> 4:04:15.520 how we want to, instead of like having this weird 4:04:15.640 --> 4:04:20.800 strict copyright like rules for not allowing certain usage of 4:04:20.880 --> 4:04:23.360 certain things. Like it's it's it's not. It's not great 4:04:23.440 --> 4:04:27.640 when you're restricting like emulation, restricting fan games, restricting the 4:04:27.760 --> 4:04:30.520 access to information. It's not, it's not it's it's not 4:04:30.720 --> 4:04:33.040 it's not fun, but yeah, this is kind of it's 4:04:33.080 --> 4:04:35.320 kind of place into why I am very skeptical of 4:04:35.360 --> 4:04:38.080 digital media, which is why I start started collecting Blue 4:04:38.160 --> 4:04:40.240 Rays and all of all the things they like, because 4:04:40.840 --> 4:04:43.000 I've boughtened things on Amazon Prime which are now no 4:04:43.080 --> 4:04:45.600 longer available on Amazon Prime and that sucks. So like, 4:04:45.760 --> 4:04:49.560 why do that instead just by your physical copy? Yeah? Well, 4:04:49.880 --> 4:04:51.600 the thing is like it didn't and it's so true 4:04:51.600 --> 4:04:53.320 to some extent, like if if you buy physical copies, 4:04:53.360 --> 4:04:55.320 like it didn't used to be like this, like Blue 4:04:55.400 --> 4:04:58.560 Rays used to it to some extense, so dubious the 4:04:59.760 --> 4:05:02.200 most times. Yeah, but like like if you buy the 4:05:02.240 --> 4:05:04.240 physical copy of it, they will give you a code 4:05:04.320 --> 4:05:07.560 that lets you use the online version, a digital download code. Yeah. Yeah, 4:05:07.880 --> 4:05:10.680 and you know that's a much better way of the 4:05:10.800 --> 4:05:14.320 thing working than uh, instead of you know, you don't 4:05:14.360 --> 4:05:16.320 buying it, you don't have the physical product, and also 4:05:16.360 --> 4:05:21.440 they can take it away from you. Yeah. It's I'll 4:05:21.480 --> 4:05:23.440 circle back to this idea towards the end, but I 4:05:23.520 --> 4:05:24.600 kind of want to, I want I want to a 4:05:24.760 --> 4:05:27.520 little bit segue to like the idea of the same 4:05:27.560 --> 4:05:32.480 type of like paywalling subscription service issues, and like the 4:05:32.520 --> 4:05:36.520 restriction of for information regarding like online news. So you know, 4:05:36.640 --> 4:05:40.600 there's a lot of people, whether they be like reporters, editors, authors, 4:05:40.760 --> 4:05:43.880 or just annoying people online. Um. But there's a decent 4:05:43.920 --> 4:05:46.720 collection of people that perpetuate the notion that readers or 4:05:46.800 --> 4:05:50.240 consumers are actually responsible for the dire straits of the 4:05:50.360 --> 4:05:54.760 media industry. But the problem with journalism and many other 4:05:54.880 --> 4:05:58.760 media you know industries. But the problem isn't that people 4:05:58.760 --> 4:06:02.160 aren't paying for news. The problem is that newspapers and 4:06:02.240 --> 4:06:05.880 outlets are being decimated and dismantled by hedge funds, capital 4:06:05.920 --> 4:06:10.560 investment firms, venture capitalists, and tech companies in search of profit. Um. 4:06:10.640 --> 4:06:12.920 You can look at how Facebook tricked a whole bunch 4:06:12.920 --> 4:06:16.480 of companies and just switching over to video content, and 4:06:16.680 --> 4:06:18.880 then a whole bunch of companies we had to fire 4:06:18.960 --> 4:06:20.920 tons of people because there was a lie. You can 4:06:21.000 --> 4:06:25.960 look at how Sinclair Broadcasting dominates local news channels and websites, um, 4:06:26.120 --> 4:06:29.040 and how well established local papers are struggling while big 4:06:29.120 --> 4:06:34.080 companies buy up all the competition. So it's it's it's 4:06:34.560 --> 4:06:37.040 especially the venture capitalist thing is actually a really uh 4:06:37.880 --> 4:06:42.600 is a really interesting idea that has been documented decently 4:06:42.680 --> 4:06:44.640 well and in a bed, I'll teach you how to 4:06:44.720 --> 4:06:48.840 bypass uh newspaper headlines via different methods. But there's this 4:06:49.000 --> 4:06:52.760 actually good article in the Washington Post um that is 4:06:52.880 --> 4:06:56.880 titled as a secretive hedge fund gets its newspapers, journalists 4:06:56.920 --> 4:06:59.200 are fighting back. It kind of just details all of 4:06:59.240 --> 4:07:01.720 the different hedge fund adventure capitalists firms instead of like 4:07:02.400 --> 4:07:06.360 just totally destroyed so many local papers throughout the entire country. 4:07:06.440 --> 4:07:09.200 It's actually kind of surprising once you learn how many 4:07:09.320 --> 4:07:13.000 of these papers are just getting destroyed by like just 4:07:13.240 --> 4:07:15.320 a few, like just like a few hedge funds are 4:07:15.360 --> 4:07:18.440 just doing all this damage. And it's it's like, yeah, 4:07:18.520 --> 4:07:21.400 I mean this is why the current like journalism industry 4:07:21.480 --> 4:07:23.360 kind of sucks right now, is because of these types 4:07:23.400 --> 4:07:26.480 of practices. And I mean, like no one likes it, 4:07:26.560 --> 4:07:30.400 like no one's happy with it, Like everyone hates journalism. 4:07:30.680 --> 4:07:33.920 Journalists hate journalism, people who read journalism hates journalism, like 4:07:34.160 --> 4:07:38.640 activists hate journalism, like everyone's met at it um. And yeah, 4:07:38.720 --> 4:07:40.800 you can look at these these hedge funds and venture 4:07:40.840 --> 4:07:44.840 capitalists who are just like making it such an impossible industry. Uh, 4:07:44.960 --> 4:07:46.320 and then you know how you have like you have 4:07:46.440 --> 4:07:49.720 internet sites and culture sites like Vice, BuzzFeed and Cracked, 4:07:50.120 --> 4:07:52.400 who had to frequently lay off large swaths of their 4:07:52.520 --> 4:07:55.880 editorial and writing teams, whether for like union reasons or 4:07:56.000 --> 4:07:58.440 because the company made failed attempts to chase some big 4:07:58.520 --> 4:08:02.680 tech companies or made your giants you know, proposed money, 4:08:03.200 --> 4:08:06.320 like in the Facebook switching over to video content kind 4:08:06.360 --> 4:08:09.120 of debacle that happened a few years ago, and like 4:08:10.080 --> 4:08:13.120 it's it's, it's it's understandable why these writers, artists, the 4:08:13.160 --> 4:08:16.560 journalists are frustrated because, yeah, the work is hard and 4:08:16.600 --> 4:08:19.000 the salaries are low. Well, the work should be hard, 4:08:19.000 --> 4:08:21.040 and some people kind of slack off, but you know, 4:08:21.440 --> 4:08:24.920 for the good journalism is more is challenging, and salaries 4:08:24.960 --> 4:08:29.000 typically aren't great. But even if audience monetary is support, 4:08:29.240 --> 4:08:32.560 where the solution to making creative and writing industries more 4:08:32.600 --> 4:08:37.000 profitable again, the kind of anti piracy folks would still 4:08:37.040 --> 4:08:40.840 be missing. A fundamental point is that kind of the 4:08:41.680 --> 4:08:44.680 the pro paywell people want you to get it through 4:08:44.720 --> 4:08:48.360 your head that journalism is just like other types of 4:08:48.400 --> 4:08:50.800 things you buy, whether it be food, you know, alcohol 4:08:51.240 --> 4:08:54.080 or entertainment um saying you know, all these things. You know, 4:08:54.520 --> 4:08:58.080 Netflix isn't free. You know, Coca Cola isn't free. Right, 4:08:58.480 --> 4:09:00.600 This isn't journalism's fault. It's just how the world works. 4:09:00.640 --> 4:09:02.120 You have to buy it to use it. It's you know, 4:09:02.200 --> 4:09:03.680 it costs money to make. You have to buy it 4:09:03.720 --> 4:09:05.920 to use it. It's just it's it's it's like, it's 4:09:06.000 --> 4:09:08.400 dumb to think otherwise. This is kind of their framework, 4:09:09.040 --> 4:09:13.000 But I beg to differ because enjoying art and worthwhile journalism, 4:09:13.240 --> 4:09:15.320 I think should always have the option of being free, 4:09:15.520 --> 4:09:18.720 because when information is in the public interest, it should 4:09:18.760 --> 4:09:21.560 just always be available to everybody, whether or not you've 4:09:21.560 --> 4:09:24.880 already used up your three free articles. Like this is 4:09:24.960 --> 4:09:28.240 really important, especially now when there's you know, the whole 4:09:28.440 --> 4:09:32.160 the whole war thing happening, and finding like pay all 4:09:32.160 --> 4:09:36.120 the articles about it is incredibly frustrating. Uh. And yeah, 4:09:36.160 --> 4:09:38.880 I mean there was even when the there was a 4:09:39.040 --> 4:09:42.400 right wing right ring extremist who opened fire and killed 4:09:42.480 --> 4:09:46.680 someone at a Portland's uh black Lives Matter protests a 4:09:46.680 --> 4:09:49.720 few weeks ago. Uh, that that is you know, still 4:09:49.800 --> 4:09:52.480 definitely impacting the city because it was it's it's still 4:09:52.600 --> 4:09:55.000 very recent, but a lot of the news coverage. First 4:09:55.000 --> 4:09:57.680 of all, it wasn't great. Uh, there was a whole 4:09:57.680 --> 4:10:01.760 bunch of news coverage was like was parroting the police 4:10:01.840 --> 4:10:04.720 lies and framing the framing the attacker is like an 4:10:04.760 --> 4:10:07.680 innocent homeowner who was defending himself. It was pretty gross. 4:10:08.120 --> 4:10:10.040 But even when even when the news articles started to 4:10:10.160 --> 4:10:13.680 like correct their previous agree with errors, um, almost all 4:10:13.760 --> 4:10:15.760 of it was paid walled, like all like all, like 4:10:15.760 --> 4:10:17.280 a whole bunch of stuff was pay welled about it. 4:10:17.520 --> 4:10:20.520 And that's incredibly frustrating because this is like, you know, 4:10:20.600 --> 4:10:23.360 when information is in the public interest, it should be 4:10:23.520 --> 4:10:26.280 free to access. Like that's just there's like a good 4:10:26.360 --> 4:10:30.360 moral thing like uh and even um, and we've seen it. 4:10:30.400 --> 4:10:32.880 We've seen this before. Back in when the plague was 4:10:33.400 --> 4:10:36.400 a new thing, news organizations across the country started to 4:10:36.480 --> 4:10:40.600 lift pay walls to share coverage of the coronavirus pandemic um, 4:10:41.040 --> 4:10:44.760 which was great. And you know, you can you can 4:10:44.840 --> 4:10:48.160 obviously see that once that changed over, a lot of 4:10:48.200 --> 4:10:51.800 people who we're making this happen behind the scenes probably 4:10:51.840 --> 4:10:54.240 hoped that which just convince people to become paying customers. 4:10:54.600 --> 4:10:56.640 But it was still like that's still the way things 4:10:56.720 --> 4:10:58.920 should be, is to have have the option of it 4:10:59.000 --> 4:11:02.280 being free than having the option to donate. And this 4:11:02.400 --> 4:11:05.880 actually seems to be kind of the trend. Uh. The 4:11:05.960 --> 4:11:10.240 University of Texas at Austin surveyed about like a thousand 4:11:10.640 --> 4:11:14.000 Chicago residents about their local news consumption, and they found 4:11:14.040 --> 4:11:16.080 that respondents were more willing to give a ten dollar 4:11:16.160 --> 4:11:19.320 donation to support a free news site than pay ten 4:11:19.400 --> 4:11:25.200 dollars for a subscription to access premium news content. So yeah, 4:11:25.840 --> 4:11:29.000 like that's and that I definitely share that same like, uh, 4:11:29.240 --> 4:11:32.560 that same idea. I will weigh sooner donate money to 4:11:32.920 --> 4:11:35.440 a newspaper that I enjoy that is also free, that 4:11:35.560 --> 4:11:38.800 I will pay ten dollars a month to read subscription 4:11:39.040 --> 4:11:44.320 service based news. It's a it's because it turns out 4:11:44.400 --> 4:11:47.560 when you like this, this applies to all cyps of media. 4:11:47.600 --> 4:11:51.200 But like when you enjoy media, you want to support 4:11:51.240 --> 4:11:54.040 its creators, whether that be anime, whether that be Sonic 4:11:54.160 --> 4:11:57.440 the fucking Headgehog, whether that be whether that be news 4:11:57.640 --> 4:11:59.840 or books. Right, if you like something, you're gonna buy it. 4:12:00.000 --> 4:12:02.160 I got to introduced to te Lemony, stickets books to 4:12:02.160 --> 4:12:04.280 be the library, and now I bought lots because I 4:12:04.400 --> 4:12:06.280 wanted to I wanted to buy the books from the 4:12:06.320 --> 4:12:11.240 person that I like. Yeah, and there are entire like industries. 4:12:11.280 --> 4:12:13.160 I mean that literally just work on this person. This 4:12:13.400 --> 4:12:17.320 is why free to play games work. Yeah, exactly. There 4:12:17.360 --> 4:12:19.440 there's another conversation with free to play games here about 4:12:19.480 --> 4:12:22.880 like addiction and gambling and manipulation about that, but like that, 4:12:23.040 --> 4:12:26.840 that's you know, like setting that aside for a second. 4:12:26.920 --> 4:12:30.480 It's like, yeah, these things if if if people didn't want, 4:12:30.560 --> 4:12:33.000 if didn't spend money on things they like, free to 4:12:33.080 --> 4:12:37.520 pay games would not work like fundamentally as a model. Yeah, No, 4:12:37.680 --> 4:12:40.400 definitely definitely the idea of like, yeah, you get someone 4:12:40.480 --> 4:12:42.800 starts to enjoying the service, then they start paying for it, 4:12:42.920 --> 4:12:47.240 whether it be buying useless you know, skin for whatever 4:12:47.480 --> 4:12:50.000 third person shooter you have, or that be you know, 4:12:50.120 --> 4:12:54.040 buying books or copies of the film or like anime, 4:12:54.200 --> 4:12:57.680 body pillows whatever like you do. You want to financially 4:12:57.680 --> 4:12:59.360 support the things that you enjoy. This is just a 4:12:59.440 --> 4:13:02.520 part of this is what humans do. So yeah, maybe 4:13:02.560 --> 4:13:04.920 more stuff should be have the option of being free. Uh, 4:13:05.160 --> 4:13:07.680 that definitely might take on it. Let's let's have a 4:13:07.720 --> 4:13:10.280 quick let's have a bit of a speaking of free content. 4:13:10.520 --> 4:13:14.120 This podcast is brought to you by these lovely sponsors, 4:13:14.240 --> 4:13:16.920 so you can listen for free while just skipping the ads. 4:13:17.080 --> 4:13:20.640 So good for you. We're back and now we're gonna 4:13:20.640 --> 4:13:24.440 talk about different ways of bypassing pay walls, specifically for 4:13:24.760 --> 4:13:29.120 online news, because paywalls frustrate me and as someone who 4:13:29.160 --> 4:13:32.000 likes messing around with kind of computer e stuff. There's 4:13:32.000 --> 4:13:34.360 definitely a long list of ways to buy pass pay walls, 4:13:34.400 --> 4:13:37.000 depending on what types of paywalls we are talking about. 4:13:37.480 --> 4:13:40.400 So types of pay walls there are. There are typically 4:13:40.480 --> 4:13:43.200 two general types of pay walls. There's hard pay walls 4:13:43.320 --> 4:13:47.000 and soft pay walls. Um, hard pay walls require payment 4:13:47.240 --> 4:13:50.760 up front, so usually some some form of subscription fee 4:13:51.000 --> 4:13:55.080 before accessing any content websites with hard pay walls. Maybe 4:13:55.080 --> 4:13:56.560 we'll let you lead like a tiny snippet of the 4:13:56.680 --> 4:13:59.760 article what you need access you need you need to 4:13:59.760 --> 4:14:02.680 pay subscription to access the full the full content. Soft 4:14:02.720 --> 4:14:07.640 pay wells are are are typically allow you to read 4:14:07.720 --> 4:14:11.840 a number of articles before you need to buy buy 4:14:11.880 --> 4:14:14.720 a subscription. So it's either's you have a set number 4:14:14.760 --> 4:14:17.080 of articles that you can read for a fixed period 4:14:17.160 --> 4:14:20.000 or session. Um, you know a lot of a lot 4:14:20.040 --> 4:14:21.880 of a lot of websites operate like this. Most of 4:14:21.920 --> 4:14:23.840 the New York Times operates like this. A lot of 4:14:24.080 --> 4:14:25.320 a lot of a lot of news sites have a 4:14:25.360 --> 4:14:27.920 soft paywall model, which is great because they're typically a 4:14:27.960 --> 4:14:31.720 little bit easier to bypass the first first method. This 4:14:31.840 --> 4:14:34.040 works some of the time. It depends on how the 4:14:34.080 --> 4:14:36.960 website is constructed, but you can try to stop the 4:14:37.040 --> 4:14:41.040 loading page before it fully loads. UH so generally a 4:14:41.160 --> 4:14:45.080 quick technique. It's effective on several different types of webpages. UH. 4:14:45.480 --> 4:14:47.120 You have to stop your browser from fully loading the 4:14:47.160 --> 4:14:49.840 webpage as soon as your breaser displays the text element 4:14:50.000 --> 4:14:52.120 of the pay well to content. So you you know, 4:14:52.360 --> 4:14:54.520 enter a page U R L into the search bar, 4:14:54.920 --> 4:14:57.480 press enter, and then press the x icon or the 4:14:57.640 --> 4:14:59.400 escape key as soon as you see some of the 4:14:59.480 --> 4:15:03.720 text on screen before a paywall window pops up. UM. 4:15:03.840 --> 4:15:06.080 A major limitation of this is that stopping the website 4:15:06.160 --> 4:15:08.240 may not load all content elements, so it may only 4:15:08.280 --> 4:15:10.600 render like a portion of the text, or it may 4:15:10.680 --> 4:15:14.840 like miss out on like files like images, animations, or videos. UM. 4:15:14.920 --> 4:15:18.480 And it also depends on the order of which the 4:15:18.560 --> 4:15:21.920 website loads the page elements. So for example, if the 4:15:22.000 --> 4:15:25.600 website loads to pay well first, then this trick won't 4:15:25.800 --> 4:15:27.960 be successful. Also, you gotta have to be kind of 4:15:28.000 --> 4:15:30.400 pretty fast in order to make this one work. Typically 4:15:30.440 --> 4:15:32.280 this isn't the first way I do it, because there's 4:15:32.360 --> 4:15:35.440 generally generally easier ways. But if you can do this, 4:15:35.640 --> 4:15:38.040 then cool. It's definitely it's definitely a fast one if 4:15:38.080 --> 4:15:41.200 you can't get it to succeed for soft paywall So 4:15:41.280 --> 4:15:45.920 like I, I will say the stopping the browser from 4:15:45.960 --> 4:15:50.440 loading is actually successful at some hard paywall sites because 4:15:50.480 --> 4:15:52.680 if they do like load a portion of the text 4:15:52.800 --> 4:15:55.840 to read as like a stippet, sometimes it will actually 4:15:55.840 --> 4:15:57.480 load the entire text, but then just block it off 4:15:57.520 --> 4:16:00.320 with a separate window. So sometimes with a hard paywall 4:16:00.360 --> 4:16:02.320 you can actually stop it via this method. So that's 4:16:02.320 --> 4:16:06.360 always fun um. But second method, generally more for soft 4:16:06.400 --> 4:16:10.640 paywalls is for is to delete your pages cookies. So 4:16:10.920 --> 4:16:15.120 you know, websites store cookies to track your browser um activities, 4:16:15.200 --> 4:16:18.560 including how much content you backsesst so blog publishers, news 4:16:18.760 --> 4:16:21.600 newspaper sites can track the number of frege articles you've 4:16:21.600 --> 4:16:24.240 read using the cookies stored on your browser. If you 4:16:24.320 --> 4:16:28.720 hit the limit for for non subscribers. If like the 4:16:29.200 --> 4:16:32.720 limited articles allotted, then you can delete the website cookies 4:16:32.800 --> 4:16:35.800 to refresh the to refresh that counter and it will 4:16:35.840 --> 4:16:38.840 possibly reset the limit of articles. Um. You can go 4:16:38.920 --> 4:16:41.040 to the privacy or security section of your web browsers, 4:16:41.160 --> 4:16:43.040 like the option that allows you to check the cookies 4:16:43.160 --> 4:16:45.920 and site for all data, and then search for the 4:16:46.000 --> 4:16:48.440 website that you're looking for in the in the cookie 4:16:48.520 --> 4:16:51.320 management page and then click remove all. You can do 4:16:51.440 --> 4:16:54.880 this on like Firefox, Chrome, Microsoft Edge if you want 4:16:54.880 --> 4:16:59.960 to use that for some reason. Um Safari. Yeah, well, 4:17:00.560 --> 4:17:03.320 this trick may not work very well on hard pay 4:17:03.360 --> 4:17:07.240 walls because it that's that they don't really use cookies 4:17:07.240 --> 4:17:10.000 for the same purpose. And also you'll have to you know, 4:17:10.320 --> 4:17:12.120 do if you're doing if you're doing this for soft 4:17:12.160 --> 4:17:13.520 pay walls, you have to do it every time you 4:17:13.800 --> 4:17:17.920 you reach the limit. UM. And if this won't work 4:17:18.120 --> 4:17:21.680 if the website is using other kind of more advanced 4:17:21.720 --> 4:17:25.040 tools to track your activity like I p logs, right, 4:17:25.200 --> 4:17:27.520 so if it's tracking your AP data instead of your cookies, 4:17:27.880 --> 4:17:31.120 then this probably won't work. So this one's this one. 4:17:31.360 --> 4:17:33.320 I mean you you should clear cookies every once in 4:17:33.360 --> 4:17:36.520 a while anyway, just like generally a good practice, but 4:17:36.800 --> 4:17:38.520 to do this all the time, it's kind of a 4:17:38.600 --> 4:17:41.000 kind of a bit of work, especially because the next 4:17:41.040 --> 4:17:43.640 method is typically easier and does the same thing, which 4:17:43.760 --> 4:17:47.040 is just reading articles inside a private or incognito mode 4:17:47.200 --> 4:17:50.880 or in the tour browser. Um. So, as as as 4:17:50.960 --> 4:17:53.160 as explained earlier, not all paywalls are about the same. 4:17:53.440 --> 4:17:55.280 If you know, if a website uses a soft pay wall, 4:17:55.680 --> 4:17:58.520 you should be able to read a subscription based content 4:17:58.640 --> 4:18:02.200 through incognito or private browsing because it'll check the it'll 4:18:02.240 --> 4:18:04.400 it'll check the website into thinking you're a brand new visitor, 4:18:05.320 --> 4:18:08.600 granting you access to the content before it had before 4:18:08.600 --> 4:18:11.400 it racks up enough of views to uh to throw 4:18:11.480 --> 4:18:14.000 up the paywell window. So this is this is a 4:18:14.040 --> 4:18:16.560 lot easier than just manually to leading the companies every 4:18:16.560 --> 4:18:21.920 single time. Because yeah, most web browsers do not transmit 4:18:22.080 --> 4:18:26.240 pre existing cookies onto an incognito or private mode browser mode, 4:18:26.680 --> 4:18:30.240 so it doesn't switch those back over. And then although 4:18:30.800 --> 4:18:33.680 the website will deposit new cookies onto your browser during 4:18:33.720 --> 4:18:36.280 private browsing sessions, they will be removed as soon as 4:18:36.320 --> 4:18:39.440 you close the window. Uh. One bummer is that some 4:18:39.600 --> 4:18:42.720 news pages are getting wise and actually are programming their 4:18:42.720 --> 4:18:44.840 websites to be able to be able to detect if 4:18:44.880 --> 4:18:47.880 they're opened in a private or browsing mode or even 4:18:47.920 --> 4:18:50.440 on tour um and they just like won't open. They'll 4:18:50.480 --> 4:18:53.640 they'll say, sorry, you have to we we've detected that 4:18:53.720 --> 4:18:55.920 you're using this in private browsing mode to view this content. 4:18:56.520 --> 4:18:59.040 Boot up a regular browser, which which really sucks for 4:18:59.120 --> 4:19:02.840 the tour users because a lot of people getore are like, hey, yeah, 4:19:03.200 --> 4:19:05.240 I'm in China, I'm trying to get past the Great 4:19:05.280 --> 4:19:08.960 Firewall and fuck you eat ship. You should have somehow 4:19:09.200 --> 4:19:12.200 paid a subscription service to us to see information on 4:19:12.280 --> 4:19:16.560 this site that is literally illegal here. Like it's great, 4:19:16.800 --> 4:19:18.960 it's really bad for people who are like actually facing 4:19:19.000 --> 4:19:23.320 government censorship who need to use tour to view content. 4:19:23.680 --> 4:19:25.920 So yeah, that that is Uh, it's what we call 4:19:26.000 --> 4:19:30.000 a major bomber. Uh A major sucks a major Oh no, 4:19:30.200 --> 4:19:34.480 capitalism did a whoopsie Um. Yeah, but yeah, this is 4:19:34.520 --> 4:19:36.800 definitely this is one of the modes I do most often. 4:19:36.920 --> 4:19:38.840 It's like I can typically get a lot of sites 4:19:38.920 --> 4:19:41.280 to be able to view through incongo or private or 4:19:41.320 --> 4:19:44.600 private browsing. But again, it does depend on what the 4:19:44.640 --> 4:19:48.600 site is. UH is a built to do but bar 4:19:48.720 --> 4:19:51.840 far my favorite me. Oh yes, I'll mention. Another one 4:19:51.840 --> 4:19:54.240 that I don't really use very often is the paywall 4:19:54.360 --> 4:19:57.320 or removable extensions for for your browser, which is like 4:19:57.440 --> 4:20:01.920 third party browser extensions which UH try to automatically bypass 4:20:01.960 --> 4:20:04.920 pay walls. These are really hit and miss um and 4:20:04.960 --> 4:20:07.200 it's they're also a really great way to get nice 4:20:07.520 --> 4:20:11.320 fancy malware onto your computer. UM, So I would I 4:20:11.440 --> 4:20:14.160 typically steer clear of this, but there there is allegedly 4:20:14.560 --> 4:20:18.400 a browser extension called bypass paywalls for Chrome and Firefox 4:20:18.800 --> 4:20:22.000 that allegedly has been found to be effective, UM that 4:20:22.080 --> 4:20:25.400 allows you to read the subscription based articles on hundreds 4:20:25.400 --> 4:20:28.640 of publications like New York Times, Wired, Wall Street Journal, 4:20:28.760 --> 4:20:32.320 Washington Post. Um, it is it is. It is free, 4:20:32.400 --> 4:20:34.080 but you have to manually load it onto your browser. 4:20:34.440 --> 4:20:36.680 And just typically amount a big fan of browser extensions 4:20:36.720 --> 4:20:38.640 in the first place, so I kind of steer clear 4:20:38.680 --> 4:20:41.680 of these. But some some some people, some people swear 4:20:41.720 --> 4:20:44.720 by them, so maybe maybe they can work. They're not 4:20:44.800 --> 4:20:48.320 They're They're not only my thing. But my favorite method 4:20:49.560 --> 4:20:54.320 is archive websites, UH, specifically archived dot is. So there 4:20:54.400 --> 4:20:57.360 are Internet archiving tools that preserve copies of web pages 4:20:57.400 --> 4:21:00.600 and social media posts for reference purposes, and you can 4:21:00.680 --> 4:21:03.880 use these tools to access paibled content and read subscription 4:21:03.960 --> 4:21:06.840 based news articles for free, including a lot of hard 4:21:06.960 --> 4:21:11.360 payworld pages. Archive dot i S or archive dot is 4:21:11.480 --> 4:21:14.920 is my favorite one. Um. Also it's it functions under 4:21:15.040 --> 4:21:17.920 archive dot today. Uh just it just it depends on 4:21:18.000 --> 4:21:20.320 what surfers they're running at the moment. Of course, there's 4:21:20.320 --> 4:21:23.920 also the classic and pretty reliable archived dot org, which 4:21:24.000 --> 4:21:27.520 has a nice calendar feature. But it's definitely good to 4:21:27.600 --> 4:21:30.000 check both of these because sometimes an article will be 4:21:30.120 --> 4:21:33.080 archived on archived dot is really easily and it won't 4:21:33.080 --> 4:21:35.080 be our available on archive dot org. Sometimes it will 4:21:35.080 --> 4:21:37.160 be on archive dot org and not archive dot is 4:21:37.240 --> 4:21:39.600 currently the one that's currently live. I think it's not 4:21:39.760 --> 4:21:42.920 pH It automatically switch is usually I could. I usually 4:21:43.000 --> 4:21:45.480 just type in our cave dot is um and it 4:21:45.520 --> 4:21:49.280 switches me over automatically. But yes, there is, there is, 4:21:49.440 --> 4:21:52.480 there is. There is a few of them. Yeah, yeah, 4:21:52.760 --> 4:21:56.000 you are right correct. It does automatically revert to archive 4:21:56.040 --> 4:21:59.040 dot phr at the moment. So yeah, but these these 4:21:59.080 --> 4:22:01.480 are the ones I use them because people who have 4:22:01.760 --> 4:22:06.160 access to hard paywalled content will often archives the hard 4:22:06.200 --> 4:22:09.120 paywalled stuff so it's available to people without the paywall. 4:22:10.120 --> 4:22:13.520 This this this can include the screenshot mode for archive 4:22:13.560 --> 4:22:16.640 dot is and the regular archival method for archived dot org. 4:22:17.080 --> 4:22:19.840 But both these are great UM and they're also really 4:22:19.880 --> 4:22:23.120 good for looking at past versions of the articles, so 4:22:23.280 --> 4:22:25.040 you can look to see what how the articles have 4:22:25.200 --> 4:22:28.320 changed over time, and so is your great just research 4:22:28.400 --> 4:22:30.960 tools and archive dot is is very easy to even 4:22:31.040 --> 4:22:34.120 upload stuff yourself, even if you don't have um the paywall, 4:22:35.160 --> 4:22:37.680 Like even if you're blocked off from reading the full thing, 4:22:38.040 --> 4:22:40.160 you can try to submit it to our chaive dot 4:22:40.360 --> 4:22:42.360 is and there's a good chance I'm and actually grab 4:22:42.600 --> 4:22:45.680 an unpaywalled version of it because because of how because 4:22:45.680 --> 4:22:48.720 of how the site works. So let's go to archive 4:22:48.760 --> 4:22:51.720 dot pH r or or archived dot is, enter the 4:22:51.760 --> 4:22:54.080 web page u r L that you're wanting to access 4:22:54.280 --> 4:22:57.240 in the designated dialect box at the bottom. It's like 4:22:57.320 --> 4:23:00.520 to save. It'll go through a little process um and 4:23:00.640 --> 4:23:02.840 then then you will then you'll be able to select 4:23:02.840 --> 4:23:05.000 the screenshop mode or the webpage mode and be able 4:23:05.040 --> 4:23:07.800 to see what type of thing in archives. It's pretty 4:23:07.920 --> 4:23:10.680 it's pretty cool. Um It's. The last thing I'll mention 4:23:11.040 --> 4:23:14.560 is outline dot com and twelve foot Ladder. These are 4:23:14.880 --> 4:23:19.080 web based tools, but not specifically archival sites. They're generally 4:23:19.160 --> 4:23:21.280 used to just get to the text of an article 4:23:22.120 --> 4:23:26.960 it would via like web page nonsense and bypassing paywall stuff. Unfortunately, 4:23:27.040 --> 4:23:30.520 websites have also gotten wise to this, so stuff like 4:23:30.560 --> 4:23:32.520 New York Times and Wall Street Journal have figured out 4:23:32.520 --> 4:23:34.800 a way to get to these sites blocked so you 4:23:34.840 --> 4:23:37.440 cannot use outline dot com or twelve foot Ladder on them, 4:23:37.920 --> 4:23:39.920 but they still work on stuff like The Washington Post, 4:23:40.040 --> 4:23:43.520 so it always depends. But I definitely generally will prefer 4:23:43.640 --> 4:23:46.440 the archive dot is and archive dot org method to 4:23:46.600 --> 4:23:51.520 viewing any kind of paybled content. Um. Yeah, and that's 4:23:51.560 --> 4:23:53.480 kind of my I mean, I'm not now, I'm not 4:23:53.520 --> 4:23:56.120 gonna explain how to do like regular piracy on the 4:23:56.160 --> 4:23:59.440 podcast because I don't have enough time. But like it's easy. 4:24:00.240 --> 4:24:01.840 There are there are lots of people who will tell you, 4:24:02.240 --> 4:24:05.560 I mean, like kiss Cartoon is like a very popular website, 4:24:05.800 --> 4:24:07.640 Like you don't even need to, like you don't even 4:24:07.680 --> 4:24:09.600 have to like properly tour and stuff anymore, there is 4:24:09.680 --> 4:24:13.400 like so much pyraated media. Help. Yeah, and it's like okay, 4:24:13.440 --> 4:24:15.040 so like you've gotta be a little bit careful with 4:24:15.080 --> 4:24:17.040 your parting stuff. Sounds like you can get copyright strike, 4:24:17.120 --> 4:24:21.680 but if you stream it, they don't copy strike you 4:24:21.840 --> 4:24:25.080 for that. So yeah, yeah, I guess The other thing 4:24:25.120 --> 4:24:28.000 I will plug is a PLEX, which is a kind 4:24:28.040 --> 4:24:31.400 of an online movie hosting service like Netflix, except you 4:24:31.600 --> 4:24:34.280 upload all of the content to it. So let's say 4:24:34.320 --> 4:24:37.160 you buy Blue Rays, it comes it comes with the 4:24:37.200 --> 4:24:40.160 digital download code, So now you can upload the digital 4:24:40.240 --> 4:24:44.120 copy into Plex and watch that wherever you want, as 4:24:44.160 --> 4:24:46.160 long as you're signed into the Plex account and you 4:24:46.200 --> 4:24:48.720 actually own the stuff on the service. So as long 4:24:48.760 --> 4:24:50.440 as the services online, you can use it because you 4:24:50.520 --> 4:24:53.880 actually own the stuff on it. Um that includes if 4:24:53.920 --> 4:24:56.640 you have if you have pirated versions of movies downloaded, 4:24:56.640 --> 4:24:59.320 you can upload this versions onto Plex then then delete 4:24:59.400 --> 4:25:01.560 the actual hard copies of it on your hard drive. 4:25:01.840 --> 4:25:04.080 Then just watch the ones in Plex and you're totally fine. 4:25:04.400 --> 4:25:07.720 So Plex is great for having like ease of access 4:25:07.840 --> 4:25:10.480 because right, sometimes I don't want to sort through my 4:25:10.600 --> 4:25:13.080 Blu ray discs and make sure that I have a 4:25:13.120 --> 4:25:15.480 Blu ray Player with me so to watch my stuff. 4:25:15.720 --> 4:25:18.600 So using plex is a great wet method to keep 4:25:18.760 --> 4:25:22.480 your stuff that you actually own accessible online to watch 4:25:22.560 --> 4:25:25.000 it as long as you sign into a web browser. Um. 4:25:25.440 --> 4:25:29.600 And the last thing I'll plug is library submission forms. 4:25:30.000 --> 4:25:33.360 So if you really want media and you don't wanna 4:25:33.640 --> 4:25:36.000 pay for it, and you don't want to like pirate necessarily, 4:25:36.440 --> 4:25:39.400 you can get libraries to buy stuff. Um. I did 4:25:39.480 --> 4:25:41.760 this all the time when I was younger. I I 4:25:41.920 --> 4:25:45.320 found out that you can submit items for purchase via 4:25:45.360 --> 4:25:48.600 the via via the library on the online forum, and 4:25:49.280 --> 4:25:53.840 I submitted so many comic books. Uh, most of the 4:25:53.920 --> 4:25:56.400 comic books, I would say, I'm not like a good 4:25:56.440 --> 4:25:58.200 majority of the comic books in the Molton Moon County 4:25:58.200 --> 4:26:01.720 Library system are because of me. Every every Wednesday, when 4:26:01.760 --> 4:26:04.160 a new trade paperback would be released, I would upload 4:26:04.200 --> 4:26:07.480 it to the library submission form and they would buy it. Uh, 4:26:07.600 --> 4:26:09.800 and not just one coffee, they would buy like twelve copies. 4:26:10.280 --> 4:26:14.360 So there's so many Batman comics in the in the 4:26:14.480 --> 4:26:18.480 in the Molton McKinney system because I would studiously upload 4:26:18.640 --> 4:26:20.080 upload all that stuff so that I didn't need to 4:26:20.080 --> 4:26:21.760 pay for comics. I could just get them from the 4:26:22.120 --> 4:26:25.880 from the library. So definitely look into library submissions to 4:26:25.960 --> 4:26:28.640 kind of grow what your library has in stock, and 4:26:28.720 --> 4:26:31.880 then also looking to see what other things your libraries doing, 4:26:31.920 --> 4:26:34.120 because I know more libraries are looking into building like 4:26:34.200 --> 4:26:39.000 maker spaces and like tool libraries to um have access 4:26:39.080 --> 4:26:40.400 to things that are not just like books, you know, 4:26:41.080 --> 4:26:43.720 power tools, and then you know had to access to 4:26:43.960 --> 4:26:47.000 even cool stuff like stuff like vacuum formers and like 4:26:47.080 --> 4:26:50.200 three three printers, laser cutters. All these things are kind 4:26:50.240 --> 4:26:52.640 of growing. So look into what your library is doing 4:26:52.680 --> 4:26:56.360 because oftentimes libraries have some pretty cool stuff. Um. So yeah, 4:26:56.480 --> 4:26:59.840 this is my little little bit on why I don't 4:26:59.840 --> 4:27:02.400 like pay wells, why I think content should be free 4:27:02.560 --> 4:27:05.280 because it actually helps creators in the long run any anyway, 4:27:05.800 --> 4:27:08.320 and how to get past news articles that don't want 4:27:08.320 --> 4:27:11.040 you to read them without paying too much money yep. 4:27:11.640 --> 4:27:15.320 And remember folks, if Japan invaded your country pirrating anime 4:27:15.440 --> 4:27:18.160 as reparations. If you're mad about this tweet, find me 4:27:18.240 --> 4:27:21.160 on Twitter and I write, okay, yeah, make sure your 4:27:21.160 --> 4:27:23.760 tweet and I right, okay if you have complaints about 4:27:23.800 --> 4:27:26.400 that take So yeah, that is that is my little 4:27:26.520 --> 4:27:30.600 my my little bit talking about piracy argue and uh 4:27:31.320 --> 4:27:34.520 and yeah, I mean morest we should, we should, we should. 4:27:34.520 --> 4:27:36.440 I think it's I've always had I've always hold this 4:27:36.520 --> 4:27:38.320 opinion that I think we can all learn a lot 4:27:38.360 --> 4:27:41.680 of lessons from Sonic the Hedgehog. Um. And I think 4:27:41.760 --> 4:27:44.400 one of the greatest ones is that turns out when 4:27:44.440 --> 4:27:47.720 you make stuff available to use, uh, for free and 4:27:47.840 --> 4:27:50.840 allow emulation, people like people like, people like the stuff, 4:27:50.840 --> 4:27:53.720 more people enjoy it, and it will actually support official 4:27:53.880 --> 4:27:56.760 uses of it as well. So more stuff for free, 4:27:57.280 --> 4:28:02.320 more more library based economies. Having having gold rings, having 4:28:02.320 --> 4:28:04.680 an enormous number of gold rings makes you nearly invincible. 4:28:04.960 --> 4:28:06.720 That that is this is this is also true. I 4:28:06.720 --> 4:28:11.560 mean this, multiple franchises exist with that exact premise. Um. Yeah, 4:28:11.880 --> 4:28:15.200 So it turns out when you have more, more libraries, 4:28:15.280 --> 4:28:24.560 more rings, people are happier. Yep. That's the episode. Hey, 4:28:24.680 --> 4:28:27.800 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 4:28:27.840 --> 4:28:30.680 now until the heat death of the Universe. It could happen. 4:28:30.720 --> 4:28:33.040 Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 4:28:33.080 --> 4:28:35.880 podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 4:28:35.920 --> 4:28:37.720 media dot com, or check us out on the I 4:28:37.840 --> 4:28:41.080 Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. 4:28:41.720 --> 4:28:43.800 You can find sources for it could happen here, updated 4:28:43.880 --> 4:28:47.320 monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 4:28:47.400 --> 4:28:51.040 for listening. M Hey, Elizabeth, you're the co host of 4:28:51.080 --> 4:28:53.640 that new podcast, Ridiculous Crime. Why yes, I am. You 4:28:53.680 --> 4:28:57.720 know it's ridiculous? Yeah, carpeting in kitchens and bathrooms? Oh wow, 4:28:57.880 --> 4:29:00.280 you are good? But you know what's also ridiculo? List 4:29:00.400 --> 4:29:02.800 a sixteen year old who breaks into a car dealership 4:29:02.840 --> 4:29:06.480 and steals guy theories Lamborghini. What yes to impress a girl? 4:29:06.680 --> 4:29:09.400 I'll tell you all about it on Ridiculous Crime, our 4:29:09.520 --> 4:29:13.400 podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heist and cons It's 4:29:13.440 --> 4:29:19.520 always murder free and ridiculous. Listen to Ridiculous Crime on 4:29:19.600 --> 4:29:22.600 the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 4:29:22.680 --> 4:29:27.240 get your podcasts. What is it really gonna take to 4:29:27.360 --> 4:29:33.400 heal ourselves, our communities and our planet? Being an alignment 4:29:33.480 --> 4:29:37.800 in anything that you do is so absolutely necessary because 4:29:37.920 --> 4:29:40.400 it really will shape the foundation of how you show 4:29:40.520 --> 4:29:45.840 up in the world. Listen to The Real Hell with 4:29:45.920 --> 4:29:50.480 Alicia Silverstone on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast 4:29:51.040 --> 4:29:58.480 or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama, what does the 4:29:58.760 --> 4:30:08.600 chicken say? Uh, giraffe giraffe? Really, giraffe giraffe. You're not 4:30:08.680 --> 4:30:10.520 gonna get it all right. Just make sure you know 4:30:10.680 --> 4:30:12.800 the big stuff, like making sure your kids are buckled 4:30:12.800 --> 4:30:15.200 correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes. Get 4:30:15.280 --> 4:30:18.920 it Right visits n h t S a dot gov 4:30:19.280 --> 4:30:21.840 slash the Right Seat brought to you by the National 4:30:21.920 --> 4:30:24.400 Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the ad Council