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Speaker 1: I think we got it. Hey it's Delilah. Did you

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Speaker 1: know I have a new daily podcast. It drops Monday

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Speaker 1: through Friday, and it's about ten or fifteen minutes long

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Speaker 1: each day. It's a mixture of my favorite radio moments,

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Speaker 1: curated around themes like finding your soul mate, second chances,

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Speaker 1: learning to love yourself, and the power of forgiveness. Something

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Speaker 1: a little different each day. Subscribe to Hey It's Delilah today. Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm Maya Shunker, host of a slight Change of Plans,

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Speaker 1: which was recently named best show of the Year by

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Speaker 1: Apple for One, and we've got new episodes for you

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Speaker 1: about everything from the science of change to personal stories

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Speaker 1: like a blind woman who becomes a master chef and

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Speaker 1: an Australian doctor who rescued a voice soccer team from

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Speaker 1: Deep within a cave in Thailand. Listen to a slight

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Speaker 1: change of plans on the I Heart Radio app, Apple

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Speaker 1: Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert

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Speaker 1: Evans here and I wanted to let you know this

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Speaker 1: is a compiletion episode. So every episode of the week

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Speaker 1: that just happened is here in one convenient and with

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Speaker 1: somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in

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Speaker 1: a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening

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Speaker 1: to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be

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Speaker 1: nothing new here for you, but you can make your

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Speaker 1: own decisions. Oh it could welcome year the podcast that

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Speaker 1: happens ship. All right, Well st Andrew, I'm gonna I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna pivot to you to to pull us

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Speaker 1: out of this tailspin. I've locked. Hello. Hello, what's the

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Speaker 1: seen everyone today? I wanted to go on a bit

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Speaker 1: of a personal meandering. I guess on um, some of

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Speaker 1: the ideas and concepts that just kind of floating on

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Speaker 1: my head um surrounding sustainable city planning and city living.

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Speaker 1: I want to see a lot of these ideas and stuff,

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Speaker 1: um kind of just crimp them from like all over

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Speaker 1: the place, and in some cases they are a bit

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Speaker 1: less I would say viable and others. But I do

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Speaker 1: find like the work of for example, Low Tech Magazine,

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Speaker 1: dot com and UM and so on to be very

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Speaker 1: inspiring in terms of all abilities, UM, what potential there is,

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Speaker 1: an obsolete technologies, what the tech solutions exist for issues,

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Speaker 1: and what we can do as people to just kind

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Speaker 1: of make living in urban sprawl or suburban hell a

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Speaker 1: little bit less hellish. Yeah. That is definitely a topic

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Speaker 1: close to my heart as well as someone who lives

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Speaker 1: in a city. I would like cities to be less hellish. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that seems and I would like suburbs and not exist

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Speaker 1: so internal more on the suburbs. We have to ally

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Speaker 1: with rural America and protracted people against the suburbs. Yes, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: my my my crank proposal has always been reintroducing Macedons

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Speaker 1: and just like just having Macedon is just like walking

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Speaker 1: through and destroying buildings, because that's that's what the suburbs deserves.

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Speaker 1: Masters is in the actual animals. Yes, yes, I thought

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Speaker 1: you meant like the social media platform. No, no, I

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Speaker 1: think we need to clone leopards so that they breed

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Speaker 1: as quickly as rabbits and just let them loose. Wasn't

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Speaker 1: Dr diferen Schmitz raised by leopards? Sure? Why not? I

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Speaker 1: would Robertino, who doctor difference verches. No, let's just let's

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Speaker 1: just let's just let's just let's just move on. Okay.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm I think I think we are. We

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Speaker 1: are roughly the same, in the same age bracket for television.

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Speaker 1: We watched so i'm movies to catch up on. I'm

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Speaker 1: very familiar with the Good Doctor period, the platypus pilled. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I am very, very very platipilled, as they say, platipilled.

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Speaker 1: Let's right. So, um, there are a lot of aspects

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Speaker 1: of my evil plan to make the entire tri state

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Speaker 1: area more sustainable, But I think I would want to

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Speaker 1: start with something that tends to consume a lot of

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Speaker 1: the energy in cities, and that is like heating and cooling.

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Speaker 1: I mean, for me, living in a tropical country, heating

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Speaker 1: has never been a consideration. Um. I mean, the coolst

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Speaker 1: it gets isn't like the I would say, like eighteen

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty degrees celsius area. Um, And to me, that

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Speaker 1: is like chili, that's like layering up kind of thing

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Speaker 1: because I can't handle that kind of cool um, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of wild to me that I have a

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Speaker 1: considered moving to Canada. I don't think I'll be able

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Speaker 1: to handle it. It does, it does get it does

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Speaker 1: get much colder. I mean we when I was in Canada,

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Speaker 1: we would have not not uncommonly have minus forty celsius weeks.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, experienced minus degrees before. I don't know, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it is. Oh, it's fine, it's it's not a big deal.

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Speaker 1: You just put on an extra pair of socks. You're

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Speaker 1: good to go. Okay, So when when it when it

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Speaker 1: hits negative forty degrees fahrenheit, you've experienced negative forty degrees.

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Speaker 1: It's not like it's not like temperatures like negative negative forty.

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Speaker 1: Negative forty fahrenheit is the temperature of the surface of

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Speaker 1: bars are a sunny day. Well, actually, negative fairness is

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Speaker 1: the same as negative forty celsius. Oh is it they

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Speaker 1: actually converged that point. Yeah, it's like you just yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just her hain like it's not even cold anymore,

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Speaker 1: Like you just like your your face just hurts. It's

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Speaker 1: it's great, it's so many time I'm to call my

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Speaker 1: my my favorite name again and have negative forty fahrenheit,

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Speaker 1: negative forty selfius celsius clapping hands in the middle. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: classics anyway, Yes, yea, Honestly, I can't even conceive of

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Speaker 1: that kind of temperature. Um. I am an island boy,

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Speaker 1: so that's how I operate, and as an island boy. Um,

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Speaker 1: how to say that? Like heat is very very uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Humidic humid heat is even more uncomfortable. Dry heat is

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Speaker 1: also extremely uncomfortable. When you have a hot day combined

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Speaker 1: with like sahara and dust in the air and no

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Speaker 1: clouds in the sky, it is truly, truly miserable. I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine, um, what life in a city would be

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Speaker 1: like if, um, you know, these sort of temperatures continue

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Speaker 1: to climb as they are climbing, Um, as we're seeing

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Speaker 1: you know, global average temperatures rising by you know, a

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Speaker 1: half degree or a degree or two degrees cells. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's just ridiculous, let alone three or four degrees celsius increase,

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Speaker 1: especially compounded with the fact that in a city there's

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Speaker 1: this thing called the urban heat island effect. So cities

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Speaker 1: are ten degrees it's hotter than the surrounding countryside, and

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Speaker 1: the reasons for the other numerous. You know, you have

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Speaker 1: like vehicles emitting heat constantly, you have air conditioners pumping

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Speaker 1: heat into the air. You have concrete and covering every

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Speaker 1: surface just like absorbing and radiating the sun's rays. And

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Speaker 1: you have these urban canyons between tall buildings that prevent

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Speaker 1: heat from escaping from and to keep it at the

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Speaker 1: sort of street level. It's miserable, right, And the typical solutions,

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Speaker 1: the individual solutions, the short term solutions, they just make

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Speaker 1: the situation worse because, I mean, when you're feeling hot,

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Speaker 1: I mean I was just feeling hot just now and

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Speaker 1: I fell on the e C. Right when you're feeling hot,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're seeing on the e C. Or you

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Speaker 1: put on a fan, but not to wash a fan,

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Speaker 1: But the a C continues and fuels this vicious cycle

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Speaker 1: of heating the outdoors to cool the indoors, making experience

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Speaker 1: spaces even more uncomfortable. So you end up with air

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Speaker 1: conditioning use accounting for like one five of global energy

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Speaker 1: electricity usage of building related global electricity usage, and you

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Speaker 1: end up with the thing that'supposed to be cooling us

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Speaker 1: heating things even more because you know, as developing countries,

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Speaker 1: you know they have access to one and more air conditioning,

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Speaker 1: especially and you know, to helping countries and to be

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Speaker 1: in the hotter side of the world. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the use of their condition just continues to sky rop

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Speaker 1: it and um the International Energy Agency actually estimated that

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Speaker 1: it would take the amount of energy needed to cool

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Speaker 1: buildings will triple by twenty which is equivalent to the

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Speaker 1: current elecacy demand in the US and Germany combined. So

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Speaker 1: on top of all that, you will have an issue

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Speaker 1: of like heat and heat deaths, right, the deaths and

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Speaker 1: injuries caused by heat, I mean heat stroke is becoming

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Speaker 1: more and more of an issue in cities, especially when

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Speaker 1: you know temperatures reach above twenty five degrees celsius. People

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Speaker 1: you know, manual labels, people who work outside, people who

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Speaker 1: have to move around a lot, you know, experience the

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Speaker 1: symptoms the symptoms of heat stroke whenever there is like

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Speaker 1: the spike in temperature. Right, and then even you know,

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Speaker 1: if you don't experience like a heat stroke, Heat is exhausting,

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Speaker 1: It is energy draining, is utterly sapping, and it requires

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Speaker 1: a lot out of your body to keep you cool

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Speaker 1: and prevent you from like eating and surprisingly this overheating

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Speaker 1: is you is not just like you know, a tropical

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Speaker 1: issue or like a hot country issue like places like

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Speaker 1: Moscow had like and asked me to eleven th people

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Speaker 1: die due to heat wave in twenty ten, and so

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Speaker 1: with all these heat waves and stuff, we need to

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Speaker 1: like figure out what to do with all these giant

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Speaker 1: concrete buildings. I mean, and for some people like equal

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Speaker 1: brutalism is you know, wow, so cool to me personally,

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Speaker 1: And this is just my subjective opinion. I find it

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Speaker 1: ugly and disgusting and I hated but you know, right

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Speaker 1: brutalism discourse. I mean, what what do you all think

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Speaker 1: of rutalism. I think Yugoslavia brutalism was cool. Every other

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Speaker 1: kind of brutalism is just like my opinions on brutalism

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Speaker 1: boiled down to thinking the game control is fun. I

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Speaker 1: had stayed in a Yugoslavian brutalist architecture hotel, which was

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Speaker 1: one of the weirdest nights of my life because it

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Speaker 1: was clearly made. It was like one of these gigantic

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Speaker 1: like people's hotels that was meant to provide everyone with

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Speaker 1: vacations and so there's like twenty thousand rooms and we

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Speaker 1: were like the only three people there, so there was

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Speaker 1: one person at the desk and it's just cavern of

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Speaker 1: empty rooms such this. Everything felt like a liminal space.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was very odd. It can it could

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Speaker 1: be very very uncanny. It wasn't like bad, it was

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Speaker 1: like reasonably well constructed. It was just deeply strange. I

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Speaker 1: mean that's to spend the night. I think that's what

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Speaker 1: makes the game control so cool? Is that. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: plays with those uncanny feelings on Brutalism while still being

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Speaker 1: like very cool, Like it's still it's the game that

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Speaker 1: Jacob Keller made a video voute right, yes he made

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Speaker 1: a he he didn't make a video like I watched

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Speaker 1: that recently. This is like the sort of oldest house

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, right right, right right, yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to go that game because I mean that's what

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Speaker 1: that's kind of like my issue at Brutalism. It feels

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Speaker 1: like a boss level in a video game, like you

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Speaker 1: have to go through each level clear what's all dominians,

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Speaker 1: and it gets it Tot and Pete the boss. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of unsettling, yes, and then like Eco brutalism is

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Speaker 1: just like, oh what if trees tres Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: like okay, will But I mean, like one of my

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Speaker 1: many occupations, and I still maintain it seasonally. Um. I

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Speaker 1: was a power washer and I hate moss, and so

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Speaker 1: to see moss all over buildings just really bothers me.

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Speaker 1: Like I just want to get you know, my spring

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Speaker 1: gun and just clear it all off. Um. And especially

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Speaker 1: in like this climate, mass is like a very significant issue.

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Speaker 1: So that that makes sense, you know, Yeah, one of

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Speaker 1: my pet peeves among many. So I mean there's many

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Speaker 1: different ways we could combat the when heat island effects

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Speaker 1: um that don't involve eco brutalism. And they can also

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Speaker 1: help to facility, you know, creating more attractive spaces to

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Speaker 1: live and to play, you know. Um. Obviously the solution

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Speaker 1: isn't just like build those every building there ever been

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Speaker 1: built and make it more sustainable, you know, with vernacular

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Speaker 1: materials and stuff. So of course new buildings should be

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Speaker 1: built with principles in mind. Um, but you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not practical to us even sustainable to destroy all the

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Speaker 1: buildings we've already built and rebuild them. You know, the

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Speaker 1: best thing we can do is try to mitigate and

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Speaker 1: adapt with what we already have, um, greenery and I

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Speaker 1: know it's just roasting eco brutalism just trap slack trees

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Speaker 1: and everything is an important part in that, right because

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Speaker 1: you know it called it causes evapple transporation, which is

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Speaker 1: like where water evaporates and plants leaves and cools the temperature. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know it also improve people's like psychological well being. Um.

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Speaker 1: And they just the nice look at um, the nice

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Speaker 1: look at the keep things cool. In fact, they can

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Speaker 1: help cause temperatures to drop by like two to three

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Speaker 1: degrees celsius in the like the surrounding area. I think

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Speaker 1: people certainly misinterpreted, but like this, this is one of

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Speaker 1: the big things you can see with with racism in

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Speaker 1: the U S. Where like you can literally like you

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Speaker 1: can literally track racial divides in a lot of American

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Speaker 1: cities by the by the temperature because like people places

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Speaker 1: where not why people live just don't have trees. And

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Speaker 1: you know this this has like a just this sort

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Speaker 1: of like cascading series of environmental and social effects which

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Speaker 1: are a disaster and environmental racism, Yeah, yes, released stock. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: if you look at the heat maps or some of

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Speaker 1: these it's use and you could literally see, you know,

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Speaker 1: where poor black folks live. You know, you can see

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Speaker 1: the places with less trees, the places next to factories

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Speaker 1: with like talks like you're on off and weese and

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. It's just you know, right there,

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Speaker 1: and it sucks. Which is why, of course, parts of

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Speaker 1: any sort of efforts to improve cities and make things

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Speaker 1: more sustainable would involve you know, social justice, and would

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Speaker 1: involve responding to an addressing the compounding effects of like

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Speaker 1: environmental racism over the past several decades so. And part

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Speaker 1: of the issue again sign things back to environmental racism

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Speaker 1: is that a lot of the climate change policies that

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Speaker 1: you know, ostensibly amends to fever, like high density urban

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Speaker 1: and smart growth, you know, like sustainable blocks and that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. They are not conceived or implemented in

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Speaker 1: a way that involves the people being affected by them.

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Speaker 1: You know. In fact, a lot of these like sort

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Speaker 1: of green um projects raise the cost of food, energy,

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Speaker 1: what transport housing for people in the area. You know,

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Speaker 1: they create these sorts of like gentrified neighborhoods, essentially whether

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Speaker 1: original inhabitants can no longer afford to live there. So

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Speaker 1: if we wants to develop like a sustainable city, resiliencity,

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Speaker 1: sustainable oversilain neighborhood, it requires social justice, It requires you know,

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Speaker 1: equity and you know, like the involvement of all affected

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Speaker 1: through you know consensus or democracy UM to just really

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Speaker 1: shape the future that you know they will be experiencing

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Speaker 1: because they're the ones being affected by it. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of other ways as well to heap proof

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Speaker 1: a city. UM reflective roofs and roads. UM can also

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Speaker 1: helped reduce the absorbedtive powers of UM solar radiation by

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Speaker 1: concrete and asphalt. So in fact, in some cities like

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Speaker 1: l A and in New York, there's this wide reflective

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Speaker 1: coating that UM has been implemented in some five thousand

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Speaker 1: meters square of roof space that saves an estimated two

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Speaker 1: thousand two tons of CEO two per year from cooling emissions.

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Speaker 1: I mean, all it takes really is just like that

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Speaker 1: sort of white reflective coat, and it saves dividends in

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Speaker 1: the long run. UM NASA had done some research on

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Speaker 1: this and it demonstrated the results demonstrated that a white

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Speaker 1: roof could be twenty three degrees celsius or forty two

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Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit ruler than a typical black roof UM on

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Speaker 1: a hot New York somebody UM and places where like yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's kind of like gloss the river that

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Speaker 1: is crazy. That is absolutely absolutely right. And then in

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Speaker 1: cities where like we're like of the land area is

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Speaker 1: like asphalt, you can imagine how that sort of UM,

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Speaker 1: that sort of reflective ceilan can impact, um the cooling

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Speaker 1: or the heating of the area. Water. Of course, it's

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Speaker 1: another like important aspect of cooling cities. UM. In andaluse Um,

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Speaker 1: which was like the Muslim kingdom in Gabrian Peninsula in

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Speaker 1: the fourteenth century UM, they used to have these sort

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Speaker 1: of like courtyards with pools and fountains. They would stimulate

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Speaker 1: water evaporation and cool the air, and so like cities today,

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Speaker 1: you know take some hints from that. You know, you

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Speaker 1: have ponds and pools and fountains and missing systems and

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Speaker 1: stuff that can sort of chill things out. I mean

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Speaker 1: we see that being UM implemented in China, where you

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Speaker 1: have like, for example, UM water miss does at like

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Speaker 1: bus stops which can chill the air and you know,

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Speaker 1: cool passengers as they wait um, and they found actually

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Speaker 1: that adding water features and like cool coatings reduces the

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Speaker 1: cooling requirements of an area by twenty nine and also

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Speaker 1: lowers the overall averaging at temperature by one point five

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Speaker 1: degrees celsius. So it's like, honestly, why, how like these

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Speaker 1: little things can have such a major impact on temperature.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of like old methods of cooling um ancient methods

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Speaker 1: of cooling, there's this Middle Eastern shading device called the

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Speaker 1: mastra bil um or I think it's mastra ba, and

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Speaker 1: it's basically an architectural element that is usually built by

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Speaker 1: um wooden lattice work and sometimes stay in the glass.

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Speaker 1: It's used to like catch and cool the wind through

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Speaker 1: like having these basins of water in them. Is I mean,

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Speaker 1: so I could try to describe it. It's like a

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Speaker 1: window jutting out of a building um with sort of

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Speaker 1: decorated by lattice work, with jars and basins of water

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Speaker 1: placed within them to let the wind pasture. And as

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Speaker 1: the wind is passing through, it's caused an evaporative cooling

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Speaker 1: then it chills out the interior. And to these mastra

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Speaker 1: beas um. They've been used since the Middle Ages by

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Speaker 1: you know, the Coptic churches of Egypt and the Art

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Speaker 1: Deco movement in Iraq, and and by you know, the

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Speaker 1: architecture um in bad Dad as well. And so these

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Speaker 1: sort of construction methods, while they tend to be developed

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Speaker 1: for you know, individual homes or individual buildings, um, they

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Speaker 1: can in fact be implemented um with even the aesthetics

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Speaker 1: of Islamic geometry to help to cool a building and

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Speaker 1: produce its overall seor twe missions. So I've been talking

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Speaker 1: about heating and cooling and stuff for a while now,

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Speaker 1: and speaking of I should probably turn on me easy,

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Speaker 1: turn off my a C. Rather, I think I heard

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Speaker 1: either either it was you, Andrew, or maybe it was

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Speaker 1: Robert talking about the ceramic kind of cooling idea. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's the thing. And like the parts of

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Speaker 1: the Americans Southwest, like New Mexico, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: like swamp coolers that are basically worked, right, Yeah, swamp cool,

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Speaker 1: swamp cool. It only works in certain climates, right, Like

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't really don't because it's if it's too it's

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Speaker 1: too humid, it's not gonna work. You're just gonna Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think there's kind of a broader thing there architecturally,

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Speaker 1: which is that like we have a lot of sort

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Speaker 1: of like like we we've we've lost a lot of

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Speaker 1: in the way we do architecturally. We've lost a lot

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Speaker 1: of the sort of like building we we've lost a

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Speaker 1: lot of sort of building techniques adapted to specific locations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah if not, yeah, yeah, And like that's something that

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Speaker 1: has to be reversed, like immediately. Guess yeah, Like our

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Speaker 1: our current model of building houses out of oil is

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Speaker 1: going to get us all killed. Really, what's what's the

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Speaker 1: problem there? What's wrong? What's on that? I mean on

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Speaker 1: top of that, right, not just vernacular architecture, but vernacular clothing.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's I mean as again, so when living

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Speaker 1: in a tropical country, I see it for myself, like

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Speaker 1: working people going to work wearing like full long sleeve

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Speaker 1: dress shoots and long long dress pants and you know,

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Speaker 1: like formal shoes, and it's honestly up, you know sometimes

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Speaker 1: like they have the whole tie like you know, pull

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Speaker 1: up and everything. It's not it's entirely based on like

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Speaker 1: European standards of professionalism, and um, it needs to be abolish.

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Speaker 1: Abolish dress goods, all right, abolished like this whole idea

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Speaker 1: that you know, we have to rest this particular way, um,

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Speaker 1: despite you know, the temperature, because it's more professional or

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Speaker 1: whatever for professionalism. Honestly, yeah, we we have we have

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Speaker 1: podcasting or in the vanguard of this, but we need

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Speaker 1: to help to destroy professionalism once and for all. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: ye show up to where can you be then suit

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Speaker 1: h um. But yeah, like vernacular buildings as well. You know,

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Speaker 1: obviously you had in in Africa, in different parts of Africa,

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Speaker 1: you would have difference structures that were particularly ticults. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're in a in a tropical reinforcet environment, you

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Speaker 1: would have a bill in a steeler to you know,

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Speaker 1: keeping mosquitoes out and maintaining a certain temperature within and

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Speaker 1: maintaining comfort as well within or you know, in cooler

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Speaker 1: regions you would have um, certain construction that would keep

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Speaker 1: heats within the building and prevent um excessive discomfort you know. Um.

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Speaker 1: And they were also of course, like when it comes

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Speaker 1: to like cooler areas, you will also expected to sort

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Speaker 1: of keep yourself warm as well as you know, keep

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Speaker 1: your building woman. In fact, it was more so keeping

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Speaker 1: yourself personally warm, so keeping yourself lay up even when

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Speaker 1: you're indoors, and of course that's kind of lost today

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00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: people are expected to just you know, turn on the

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Speaker 1: heater and vibe for the months of winter. But it

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Speaker 1: isn't sustainable. A lot of things we enjoy today unsustainable.

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Speaker 1: Keeps coming back to that. But yeah, speaking of things

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Speaker 1: that we enjoy that are not at all sustainable, how

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Speaker 1: about cause get rid of cause? Please get rid of cause.

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00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: I mean, cause are very convenient in terms of like,

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Speaker 1: if you want to get somewhere very specific, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: if there's a place you want to go, I'm the

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00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: one you need to know. I'm a car. I'm a car.

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Speaker 1: I'm a car. You know kind of thing. But my

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Speaker 1: little musical interview there, thank you for appreciating it. But ultimately,

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Speaker 1: like they honestly aren't sustainable. They honestly on something that

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Speaker 1: we can maintain in the nail even for well potentially

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Speaker 1: in the neighbuance. Where's the far future. I mean, people

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Speaker 1: are already know the problems with gascars, already know my

395
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: gascars are bad. But you know, things just just things

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00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: are just sort of pivoted towards electric cars and who

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Speaker 1: electric cars, Let's get a bunch of electric cars. Who

398
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: but electric cars aren't better. I mean the materials they require,

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Speaker 1: the energy they required, it's quite frankly not sustainable in

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Speaker 1: the long run, and it just lengthens the amount of

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00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: time that we spend dependence on a cause for short

402
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: and long distance travel. And especially how in the States

403
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: we've built our cities around the idea of a car,

404
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: which has expanded the urban terrain unnecessarily. And if you

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00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: look at like all the space taken up by like

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Speaker 1: highways and overpasses, and how much of just like urban

407
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: space is taken up but just been built around the

408
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: idea of the car, it really kind of makes the

409
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Speaker 1: whole idea of a city so much less useful. It's

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Speaker 1: it's really it's really frustrating. And I think it's also

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Speaker 1: working at the cars are so unbelievably dangerous yea, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're very much used to like having these like death

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00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: machines driving around at all times, and that that makes

414
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: for like a very um cool like series of metal

415
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: band song names or whatever. But the death statistics on

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00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: funny when it comes to cause. No, and like the

417
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Speaker 1: average transport transportation time having cars has not actually decreased

418
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Speaker 1: like the amount of time it takes to get from

419
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: place to place based on like where you live in

420
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: your city has not actually increased because now everything has

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00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: just spread further apart. So a hundred years ago would

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00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: take you know, like a fifteen minute trek to get

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Speaker 1: to like, you know, the market or something. It can

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Speaker 1: take oft times longer, especially if you're driving in like

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Speaker 1: rush hour traffic to get just just just like a

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Speaker 1: couple of miles, where even in some cases a decent

427
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: job get you there faster. Um, just because of how

428
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: we've just designed the cities all around these rolling metal

429
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: death cages. Um. Yeah, it's not it's it's not great.

430
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons I don't currently have a car. Yeah,

431
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: And that's kind of that's something that's shocking to a

432
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: lot of people when I tell them that, really, I

433
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: have no intention if I a buying a call of

434
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: ever owning a call. It's not something that I want.

435
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: And I mean I live relatively close to like some

436
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: of the major transport um arteries of the country, and

437
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: you know, not has like this unique ish transportation system

438
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: public transportation systems, So we have these privately owned maxi

439
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: taxis that um, they're like vans with seats in the

440
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: back UM, and you know, you could you just kind

441
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: of jump in UM depending on where they're going with Ruth.

442
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: They're taken UM and they're they're convenient enough for me

443
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: and for my purposes, so I just, you know, I go,

444
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: I need to go um with them. But they're also

445
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: gas guzzling in efficient machines. I mean, they're better than

446
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: you know, all those people driving cars. I mean as

447
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: an island, you know, like I don't know why we're

448
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: so obsessed with having more and more cars on the road, UM,

449
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, they still aren't

450
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: the best in terms of sustainability and in terms of viable, reliable,

451
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: sustainable transport. UM. We also have like personal taxis as well,

452
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: but they have the same problems as regular taxis. And

453
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: what's frustrating is that we used to have a train

454
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 1: line UM that went along the entire east west corridor

455
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: of the country, and that's where most of the people

456
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: internet along the East West corridor UM. But that was

457
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: destroyed in the nineties sixties, I think, to make way

458
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: for highways and a priority bus route. So instead of

459
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: having a nice, convenient, cute, little train that we could

460
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: take to go from place to place. You have to

461
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: rely on busses and maxis and taxis and cause, yeah,

462
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: that is quite that's not cool, that is quite not good,

463
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: quite quite him, because we need to reconfigure. Seriously, I

464
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: would love for them to bring back trains. He was

465
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: to take a train, don't have to rely on I mean,

466
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: government bureaucracy makes all things unreliable. But I think a

467
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: train would have been slightly more reliable than a bus.

468
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: Very much on the pro train, on the on the

469
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: pro train train a fewer, a few fewer, fewer moments

470
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: more happy than writing the Portland's max line and streetcar

471
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: in a no face costume. It's very it's it's very fun.

472
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 1: I think. Also, like another thing about about cars, right,

473
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: this is just it's just just on a very pure

474
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: political level, like cars is the thing that allowed suburbs

475
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: to exist, and the existence of suburbs has produced just

476
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: generation upon generation of like frothing reactionaries who are the

477
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: source of like enormous percentages of the world's problems. And

478
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: so if you get rid of those places, you produce

479
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: less of them. Yeah, which is just a political benefit

480
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: for anyone who wants to not die exactly exactly. I mean,

481
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: we don't think about it because there already so many

482
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: things to think about. But if you actually sat down

483
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: and pondered the death tool of like cause, um we

484
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: really and really brought to the forefront and really made

485
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: it less of a necessity. I think one more people

486
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: would be open to the idea of rejecting cause to

487
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: keeping them as at most benign a novelty um that

488
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: maybe one or two exists in the entire community, UM

489
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: for use if needs be UM, But otherwise I I

490
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: don't see how each and every person in the world

491
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 1: owning their own car, is that all the best way

492
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 1: to go. Also cause it kind of ugly to me. Yeah,

493
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: we really didn't design them to look cool, which just

494
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,479
Speaker 1: it's I mean, there's some cars that look kind of cool,

495
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 1: like some of the more classic ones. But and that's

496
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: part of the issue, right, They're getting uglier to me,

497
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: And they're also getting larger, you know, like people like

498
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: they're raising their grills more and more so, like you

499
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: basically a pedestrian killing machine. We've effectively undone most of

500
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: the benefits of making cars safer for passengers by making

501
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: them much more dangerous for pedestrians, which is entirely a

502
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: marketing choice. Like, if you like the fucking trucks they

503
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: were making twenty five years ago are just as useful

504
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: um and in a lot of cases more useful for

505
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: like practical far more for hauling and whatnot, then the

506
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: trucks they're making today they haven't meaningfully gotten better. They've

507
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: just gotten a lot larger for no real reason other

508
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: than it makes people feel like big men. Well, and

509
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: then you get these fun you get these fun you

510
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: can you can look at the marketing people like explicitly

511
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: talking about how like yeah, like they like basically explicitly

512
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: playing into the fantasy of running over protesters and it's

513
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: it's great, it's yeah, So get rid of cars and

514
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: you won't have to deal with that. But Chris, how

515
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: is that sustainable well viable? M hmm, good question. Introducing

516
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: super blocks. Oh yes, superblocks are basically um neighborhoods of

517
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: nine blocks, So I don't think they have to be

518
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: I think the philosophy and ideas behind super blocks can

519
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: implemented suit different um cities of different histories and different layouts,

520
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: especially localized especially like localized street cars within each city

521
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: block within within each superblock like system exactly. So, just

522
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: to clarify, the idea of super blocks are basically um,

523
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, neighborhood of nine blocks where traffic is restricted

524
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: to the roads on the outside of the block, which

525
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: means that the interior of these super blocks are entirely walkable. That,

526
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: combined with the idea of a superblock being um mixed use,

527
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: means that people are mostly able to access their basic

528
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: necessities within their city block. Are you able to like

529
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: spend more time, have more open space, to spend more

530
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: time to meet with people, to talk, to do do activities,

531
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: to you know, have some relief from noise pollution and

532
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: air pollution from vehicles, and to really like connects people

533
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: with the space they're living in and make the space

534
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: they're living in more livable. I mean, I don't live

535
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,959
Speaker 1: smack tab in the middle of like urban urban town,

536
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: but I could imagine if people living in like New

537
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: York or whatever, and you can't exactly step out of

538
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: your apartment and playing the road on a typically if

539
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: you have kids or whatever, you know, they can't exactly

540
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: just go run outside, um you will die exactly exactly exactly,

541
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 1: And I mean people complain about like, oh kids, lease

542
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 1: do some quo outside as much. But I mean, look

543
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: at outside, you know, look at what look at what

544
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: has been created, um and reflect on that. I mean

545
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: part of the assuer is um the way social media

546
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: algorithms are designed to suck people into like cycles of addiction.

547
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: But that's a whole another topic, right, Um, I think

548
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: a lot of people, more people will be willing to

549
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: be able to pull themselves out to that sort of

550
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: harmful algorithmic. Hell, if there was an outside pull themselves

551
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: out too, you know. But honestly, cities, especially a notorious

552
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: for like not having places you can be where you

553
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: don't have to spend money, and that sucks. So I think, um,

554
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: super blocks being places where you know, libraries and um

555
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: place so people can eats community. It does seem to

556
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: be missing or ignoring what we're going to lose with

557
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: super blocks, which is how how am I gonna roll

558
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: down the streets smoking indow sipping on gin and juice

559
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: if I'm not allowed to drive within my block? Wow,

560
00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: I think we can. I think I've then you could

561
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: just get a bike who's cruising all the bicycle? Have

562
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 1: you tried smoking indow? Sipping on gin and juice while

563
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: riding a bicycle. It's it's impossible get a couple holder

564
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: anything as possible as a Snoop dogg eraser. No. But

565
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: the the idea of having like community gardens, community like kitchens,

566
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: like a maker spaces, libraries, all these within like this

567
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: super black framework, you know, like green spaces, it does

568
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: make actual urban city living to seem attractive and not

569
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: like you're just living in nested concrete boxes. Yeah. I

570
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: mean people like living cities because that's where everything's happening, right,

571
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, you you want people to take part in

572
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: the things that are happening, but the places aren't livable. Yeah,

573
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: you have the table that will continue to complain about

574
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: until the end of time, which the table in Chicago

575
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: Chinatown that threatens to arrest you for sitting at it.

576
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, like the hostility tea of this goes

577
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: back to like racism because of course everyone does, everything does,

578
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: but you know a lot of these loitering laws and

579
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: stuff whichly designed to target black people and to target

580
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, poor people, um like vagrancy laws and that

581
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: sort of thing just hostile people's existence. And that gets

582
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: into like hostile architecture and that sort of thing. But

583
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: I think with these super blocks, you know, we open

584
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: up our spaces to make them welcoming to human existence,

585
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: spaces that are not built around cars, built around commutes,

586
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: built around week And this obviously is a transformation that

587
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: requires more than just you know, vote for so and

588
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: so and make this a degree and kind of thing.

589
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: You need. You need something more substantial than that. You know,

590
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: within these superblocks as well, you're you're able to take

591
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: stock of how your block or whatever, you have a

592
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: better mental sense of um community and able to take

593
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 1: about a sense of even things like how your block

594
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: can communally sustain themselves and you know, reduce waste and

595
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 1: all these different things. This in conjunction with struggle against

596
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: capitalism in the state, but you know that is implied.

597
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: This is you know, m this is the show. This

598
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: is it could happen here. I don't know if you

599
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: expect and like electoralism, but that's not really what we

600
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: do around here. I mean the benefits to these sort

601
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: of like super blocks, you know, these fifteen minutes soon

602
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: so people can walk within fifteen minutes to get the essentials.

603
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: The benefits are innumerable. You know that'ster airquality, less noise,

604
00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: healthy lifestyle, mental health boost But the issue is without

605
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: a combination of you know, these projects and these activities

606
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: with like anti capitalism and anti statism, it's it's tends

607
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: to lend itself towards gentrification. And we've seen that in Spain,

608
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: which is where UM some of these super blocks have

609
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: been implemented. UM They've created like these locations that are

610
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: obviously more desirable because who doesn't want to live in

611
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: a superblock where you know, you actually have a sense

612
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 1: of community because we're all desperate for that. UM and

613
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: at least an increase in property demand, higher prices, higher

614
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: rent it basically creates these pockets of unaffordable neighborhoods, displacing

615
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: local residents. So you have to get into the fight

616
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: against gentrification in order to make this, you know, idea viable.

617
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: The last thing that I want to get into really is,

618
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: as con mentioned UM community gardens. I want to talk

619
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: about urban farming because that is crucial. I mean, part

620
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: of what UM makes cities cities in all the cases

621
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: is the fact that they import all their food. Right,

622
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: they have the urban rural divide that you know, delineates

623
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: the two areas, UM. But considering the transportation costs, the

624
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: energy costs, all those things that compound UM two sustain

625
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: a city, a city's food needs, we have to look

626
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: to ways that we can sustain cities and sustain neighborhoods

627
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: within cities, UM, within themselves. Before I continue, I just

628
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: want to point out that the future of urban farming

629
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: is not in vertical farms. UM. They look very cool,

630
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: you know, like those tall kind of like pillars of

631
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: like letters or whatever, growing out sort of things, but

632
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: the land that they save is usually canceled out by

633
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: the land they need to produce the energy to power them, like,

634
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: they're very energy intensive UM spaces. So until that issue

635
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: is resolved, and I don't know if it will be

636
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: considering you know how the energy requirements is just sort

637
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: of built into the vertical the concentration of energy requirements

638
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: built in sort of into the vertical farming design, UM,

639
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: we have to look to more practical methods. Landownership tends

640
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: to be a major hurdle UM when it comes to

641
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: organizing community gardens and maintaining community gardens UM. I mean,

642
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: like folks like Black Futures Farm, Oakland Avenue, urban Farm

643
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: and the Victory Garden Initiative. They've been working to like

644
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: provide fresh producers ito was in need, especially in urban

645
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: food desert. But in a lot of these projects, they

646
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: go in good for some years and then the city

647
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: suddenly spins around It's like we need this land for development,

648
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: so they just snatch it up, and you know, those

649
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: years of efforts just basically put on the dream. Um

650
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: Community land trusts have been put forward as a potential

651
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: um solution to that issue. But like a lot of

652
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: these things, I mean, it's a good band aid, I

653
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: would say, but it's not necessarily marking the end of capitalism.

654
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: Another issue that there is with the whole urban farming

655
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: thing is that um the culture that develops around them

656
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: while they provide education and community and connection for people

657
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: within them, and that is extremely valuable. I think some

658
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: organizers fall into this habit of treating of creating this

659
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: sort of like shared delusion around community gardens, you know,

660
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 1: claiming to be sort of feeding the people couldn't could

661
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: And what really brought this to my attention was Inhabits

662
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: Territories newsletter. We had an article on it the last

663
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: year I think, on you know, urban community Gardens, and

664
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,760
Speaker 1: it was written by Gibriel I've seen, the co founder

665
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: of at Plant, which I find to be a very

666
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: very creative name, basically asked the question are we really

667
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: feeding ourselves? I mean, these local food initiatives, they do

668
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: produce food that people eat, but it can be a

669
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: bit harmful to be overly optimistic about our food autonomy

670
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: at this stage, especially considering how irons we still are

671
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: on big agriculture. You know, like, yes, we are producing

672
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: you know, organic nutritionally this dense crops and stuff, and

673
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: that's great, that's helping people, but you know, oftentimes it

674
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: usually just means that, you know, the people might be

675
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: getting participants and be getting like a salad or you know,

676
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: a couple. To me too, is it's not necessarily they're

677
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: cutting down their grocery build in a sustainable long term way,

678
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: because I mean, if you've tried God, then you know that,

679
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: like when you work here with a limited space, you know,

680
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: you grow your foot set of To me too, is

681
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: it means it was a cool, but they don't last forever,

682
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 1: you know, and you have to wait until the next

683
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: harvest to get more. To me too, it or whatever

684
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: the case may be, same for like letters or whatever.

685
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: It's kind of rough, you know, it doesn't It helps

686
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: for like a meal or maybe two depending on like

687
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: living situation, but it doesn't meaningfully cut into our reliance

688
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: and groceries and you know, food inputs. Yeah, it definitely

689
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: takes a bit to get to that point, and you

690
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: have to do it with a combination of like food

691
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: preservation and like canning um, and like you know, like

692
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 1: jarring and a whole bunch of other stuff to actually

693
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: make that a worthwhile endeavor as opposed to just making

694
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: like great, I spent three months making these tomatoes. Now

695
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: they're ready for one meal and then they're all gone. Yeah. Yeah,

696
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: you do have to really kind of figure out how

697
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: to grow enough to keep enough ready to be harvested

698
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: for jarring and canning for future use um, and make

699
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 1: sure like you're you know, harvesting them when they are

700
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,479
Speaker 1: ready so that you can you know, you don't lose

701
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: stuff and that you have like you know, an ongoing,

702
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 1: ongoing process of like preserving the fit that you do

703
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 1: grow for later um as well. So you can definitely

704
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: take a lot a lot more like until effort and

705
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: planning then just you know, planting it and then you know,

706
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: using it and cooking it when it's when it's all ready. Yeah,

707
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of energy and self is put

708
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: into growing things like greens and roots and fruit and vegetables.

709
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: And they're healthy, you know, they have the vitamins and micronutrients.

710
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: But you know, people still need meat, dairy, eggs, you

711
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: know protein. Yeah, heavy, high calorie dense stuff, you know,

712
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: like potatoes and other starches, like a really holy boloof

713
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: wheats and that kind of thing, and that just isn't

714
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: being growing right now. You know, wheat and rice and

715
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 1: soy and nuts and corn and sugar. These staples and

716
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,760
Speaker 1: stuff don't tend to be produced by these community gardens

717
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: and by these garden plots. Not many many, not many

718
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: legume patches at your local community garden. Yeah yeah, yeah,

719
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,240
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. Like I'm I'm in the process of grin

720
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: um some pigeon peas right now, and they are taking

721
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: a very long while. And what I realize is that, um,

722
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I just plan to them, so I'm being

723
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 1: a bit impatient. But what I realized is that when

724
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: they do growth, and I've seen you know, some much

725
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: your pigeon pea trees and stuff. I know how big

726
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: they tend to grow right time harvest rules around. You know,

727
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: you get all those different pots and you you know,

728
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: you put in the work. You put you pick all

729
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: the pods and you m pry open the pods, and

730
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 1: you know, you put in some more alliteration into the sentence.

731
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: And you know you get those peas out. Once those

732
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 1: peas out to the pod and you put them in

733
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: a pot, they're not potent enough to whould you over

734
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: for more than one meal. You know, like you pick

735
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: like a trees worth of peas in a pod, and

736
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: you know that's like sometimes like half of I'm you

737
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: and really honestly respect to the people who are producing

738
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: all our food right now, because I can't imagine having

739
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: to be shelling peas all the time. It's kind of ridiculous.

740
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: I mean it can be fun, but I can't imagine

741
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: doing it all day. I mean, workers work, right, it's

742
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 1: gonna yeah, work as hell, we know this. But yeah,

743
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: So I mean community gardens they're good. You know, they

744
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 1: have you know, education, they build community, they provide outdoor

745
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: activity and stuff. But you know, I think what community gardens,

746
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: urban gardens and stuff need to do is find ways

747
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 1: to um and this this isn't a disparate The work

748
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: has been done, you know, like massive support. I'm doing

749
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: that myself kind of thing. But we've got to, like,

750
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 1: as the article argues, we can't get caught up in

751
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: the fluffing up of the reality for marketing purposes. You know,

752
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: we need to look for ways that can actually um

753
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 1: feed ourselves. I means getting into caloric foods that means

754
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: um like like dried beans, potatoes, fruit, trees, I kind

755
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: of think grains, nuts, all that jazz. And also connecting

756
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: with farms outside of the city, you know, local farms

757
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: outside of the immediate urban landscape. Seeing what cooperatives can

758
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: be developed that can work aid each other mutually to

759
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 1: build more potent capacity for food. What's on me? So,

760
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: I mean, get in touch with the soil, you know,

761
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: get this sign your face, but also think about what

762
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: more we can to sort of take this to the

763
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: next level. And ya, that is um that is what

764
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:19,439
Speaker 1: I believe could in fact happen here. This has happened here. Good. Yeah,

765
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: it's nice to have a positive one of these. Yeah,

766
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: we should do that more often. If if only we

767
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: had the power, well come back tomorrow when we'll be

768
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: talking about another bad thing and then abandoning you to

769
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: deal with your thoughts about it. Wow, we we try,

770
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: we try, we do try. This is us trying well,

771
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: this is us having st Andrew try. You're welcome, Thank you,

772
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: thank you very much. This is a topic I wanted

773
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: to discuss for a long time. In terms of use.

774
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: We get a lot of people talking about like, yeah,

775
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: how you know and whatever, like post collapse fantasy that

776
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 1: you can imagine where we're able to kind of reconfigure society.

777
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: How would you plan urban living? And you're like, well, yeah,

778
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of actually really cool ideas for

779
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: like keeping people close together can be a very ecological

780
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: idea if you do it certain ways. It's just a

781
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:21,959
Speaker 1: lot of the ways you've defaulted to over the past.

782
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: Like really three years has made it not that with

783
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: the invention of the car really really screwing us over. Um.

784
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you so much for talking about urban

785
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: living and super super blocks and all this kind of stuff.

786
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: Where can where can people find more of your work

787
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: and writing on the interwebs. You can find me on

788
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 1: YouTube at st Andreism, and you can find you on Twitter,

789
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 1: which hopefully when you hear this, I am still not

790
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: on at under school seeing fantastic. Um, yeah you uh

791
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 1: st Andrew just put together a really great episode about

792
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 1: anti work stuff and the way that tobaccles has has

793
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 1: happened and what we can learn from it and that

794
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Um and while you should still actually

795
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: care about anti work um and yeah, so would definitely

796
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 1: recommend the anti work video for recent recent recent stuff.

797
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: Let's see. Um, if you want to feed your brain

798
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: into the addiction driven social media algorithm, you can follow

799
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: us on Twitter and Instagram. It happened here pod and

800
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 1: cools on media and uh yeah, let's uh go think

801
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 1: about go think about microspaces and community gardens. That seems

802
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 1: like a good a good way to dedicate your thought

803
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: time and roll down the street smoking indow sipping that

804
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: gin and juice while you still can on a bike.

805
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 1: I am pluly sally used doing my moral judgments upon

806
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 1: you before before the fascist anarchists take away your fees. Yeah. Look,

807
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 1: if if if we can democratize military grade weaponry the

808
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: way the Ukrainians have, we can we can we can

809
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: form neighborhoods that cannot be forced to live in the

810
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: traffic the auto industrial complex really reduced fripless air travel.

811
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: What otherwise will end up in a mad max wield

812
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: and I mean wants that right, well aspects of it. Yeah, alright,

813
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: see everybody, Hey there, it's lee In Rhymes and I

814
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 1: am so excited to share the third season of my

815
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: Holy Human podcast with you. This season, we're creating a

816
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: deeper connection to ourselves and each other with greater understanding,

817
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: intention and joy. Join me as I sit down with

818
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: some of the most inspiring and enlightening experts in the

819
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 1: fields of self awareness and healing. As we make sense

820
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: of this crazy, wild and sacred existence we all share. Together,

821
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: we'll sort through all of life's bits and pieces to

822
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: explore our whole selves. Season three of Holy Human with

823
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 1: Leanne Rhymes launches March one. Listen and follow on the

824
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get

825
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Sir, we got your test results back and

826
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: give it to me straight Talk. You have to listen

827
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: to the podcast Ridiculous News. Ridiculous News. The podcast Ridiculous News.

828
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: It's a podcast hosted by Bill Whorley and Mark Kendall.

829
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: Ridiculous News. Thre's two comedians based out of Atlanta, Georgia.

830
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: So you've heard of them, you know, I always knew

831
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: you were my favorite patients. We have the best doctor

832
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Speaker 1: I've ever had. And yeah, they're hilarious. I love their videos.

833
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: Bill is actually my cousin. They talk about the news,

834
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 1: but not like in a depressing way, you know what

835
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: I mean. Like they did an episode about April fool.

836
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: It's great. You get it, so you need to listen

837
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 1: to it. Where do I find it? You get it

838
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: wherever you find podcasts, like in a cereal box. Well no,

839
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: I mean that's not where you find a podcast, so

840
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: like in the middle of a tree. No, do you

841
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: know what a podcast is? Yeah, it's like like a

842
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: shoebox size. No, no, got it. All is something that

843
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: you listen to listen to ridiculous news on the I

844
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

845
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 1: The produce I absolutely not from Cavalry Audio, the studio

846
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: that brought you The Devil Within and The Shadow Goes

847
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: comes a new true crime podcast, The Pink Moon Murders.

848
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 1: The local sheriff believes there may be more than one

849
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 1: killery to It's been four days since those bodies were

850
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: found and there's no arrest as it this morning. They

851
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 1: were afraid it's face it out in that area, what

852
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 1: if they come back or whatever. It scared me to death,

853
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: Like it scared me, I was very very intimidating to

854
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 1: live here. Crazy to think you go to sleep one night,

855
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: maybe snuggling with your loved one and never wake up,

856
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: or maybe you wake up in a struggle for your life,

857
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 1: which you lose. Joint host David Radoman as he explores

858
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: one fateful night when evil descended upon small town, Ohio

859
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: killed eight members of an Ohio family in a pre

860
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: planned execution. The family was targeted, most of them targeted

861
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: while they were sleeping. Follow the Pink Moon murders on

862
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you

863
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: get your podcasts podcast, thank you. That is it is.

864
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: It's true. It's true. Actually it could happen here. Listening

865
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: to the podcast is more or less the truth we have.

866
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: We have Dreg Robert out of bed at before the

867
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 1: crack of dawg at a legend forty two am. Um,

868
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about actually something very fun. I'm

869
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: I've been I've been wanting to talk about this for

870
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 1: a long time because this is one of actually one

871
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:32,479
Speaker 1: of my favorite things. Um yeah, yeah, So I'm gonna

872
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell a bit of a bit of a

873
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: little story regarding one of my act all time favorite

874
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 1: events and topics. So back in like there was this

875
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: a cheesy little online university science show made by the

876
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 1: Rochester Institute of Technology called Can You Imagine UM. The

877
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: the idea was to highlight some of the cool and

878
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: weird things at the university UM in part to promote

879
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 1: the Imagine r i T Festival, which was like the

880
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 1: schools annual like innovation and creativity festivals think that they

881
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: put on. So yeah, today I want to talk specifically

882
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 1: about episode three of the web series because the contents

883
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: of which overlap with some of my like artistic interests

884
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: UM and like just my love of illusions and paradox

885
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 1: and I will kind of tie into some topics we

886
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 1: other we always discussed on the show. So yeah, Episode

887
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: three one of probably probably the most interesting episode UM.

888
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 1: Episode three opens with the hosts Kevin and Steph as

889
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: they like stand awkwardly in a gloriously dated you like

890
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: university film set like it's it's it's only twenties, it's

891
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 1: only twenty thirteen. But it was like obviously like made

892
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: in the nineties, like like like like the set's like

893
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: it's all it's it's all very dated. What specifically are

894
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: you referred? Oh, like they're they're like they're just like weird,

895
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: like like weird, like like dated science stuff on the walls.

896
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: All the hosts of wearing like dorky orange T shirts

897
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:03,919
Speaker 1: like like over to over top the regular clothes. They yeah, yeah,

898
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 1: it's it's it's all. It's all that kind of it's

899
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. So like dorkey orange T

900
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: shirts with the letters r I T for the Roger

901
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 1: CRUs Sister Institute of Technology. Um. Of course, because everything

902
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 1: in this online video series is perfect, Kevin is wearing

903
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 1: his shirt over top of like a button down. It's

904
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: it's it's it's great. Um. The first fifty seconds of

905
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: the video are taken up with like plugging the upcoming

906
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: of r a t Imagine Festival with a with a

907
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: co host Steph beautifully stumbling over her lines when she

908
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: says the events catchphrase, it's where the left brain and

909
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: the right brain collide. And it's great, it's it's it's

910
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 1: it's it's it's perfect. So after all the plugs and

911
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 1: the vamping, the hosts get down to the fun engineering

912
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: feat and they'll be showing us today, which is a

913
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: neat little architectural experiment a part of the r I

914
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: T campus called the a Sharing and Stairwell UM, of course,

915
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 1: named after the impossible staircases depicted in Dutch artist m

916
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: c eshers artwork. So the video cuts two from the

917
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 1: little like sound stage they're filming in to this boring, white,

918
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: seemingly typical stairwell. Our host Kevin ascending a flight of

919
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: the gray concrete stairs UM explains that what located in

920
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 1: Building seven of the campus. The stairwell was designed by

921
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 1: Filipino architect Raphael Nelson Abegando and was one of the

922
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 1: first structures put up when Our I T moved their

923
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: campus from downtown Rochester to the more suburban Henrietta UM.

924
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 1: When when he's taking when he's reaching the top of

925
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 1: the stairs, he turns the quarter and then suddenly seems

926
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 1: to appear at the bottom of the lower flight of stairs,

927
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 1: leading up to the landing that he just left from,

928
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: all while continuing to talk about the architect behind this

929
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: like kind of weird impossible feat um. So, as Kevin

930
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: walks back up to camera, he says that the stairwell

931
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 1: was built in the eight and it's been wowing ur

932
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: I too students ever since. Um it's it is very cool.

933
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: It's like it's like you're like, okay, you get you

934
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 1: get the little like like you get a little like

935
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 1: architectural trick that they're doing. Um, but it's it is.

936
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 1: It is still pretty fun to see. Before episode three

937
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 1: of Can You Imagine aired you could, you can already

938
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 1: find a few articles on the school's UH website about

939
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 1: the issuaring stairwell, along with some like forum posts debating

940
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 1: how the architecture in the stairwell works to like achieve

941
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 1: the effect. UM Also floating around on YouTube was like

942
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 1: a random segment of what looked like a like a

943
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: PBS style late nineties documentary about the physics and architecture

944
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 1: of the school and specifically the stairwell that interviewed some

945
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 1: like professors um and some like architects and like a

946
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 1: symphysicist kind of discussing what like how to like bring

947
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: paradox into the physical world. Yeah, but but but but

948
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: around the time that can you imagine episode aired, the

949
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 1: now like infamous r RT stairwell was mostly unknown, so

950
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 1: it was like, even despite it being very interesting, no

951
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 1: one really knew about it until this episode of this

952
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 1: little web series aired. Um. The little episode dedicates around

953
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 1: half its time to interviewing students, uh and righteously random

954
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 1: people at the university about if they even know about

955
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: the stareill's existence, um, and if they do, what like

956
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 1: experiences they have with like me messing around with like

957
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: the looping architecture, because yeah, you can you know, you

958
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: can play a lot of games with this type of

959
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 1: with this type of design. Uh. So the rest of

960
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 1: the short video like tries to demonstrate the disorienting ascent

961
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: down and descent back up via the camera in various ways,

962
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: like you know, like human chains or holding hands around

963
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 1: the weird like vious loop types staircase, then like passing

964
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 1: objects back and forth in a circle while inside and

965
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:43,520
Speaker 1: around the enclosed stairwell. Um, there's one where Kevin walks

966
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 1: around with a cup to show that the stairs aren't

967
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 1: like clearly like heavily slanted, like the water stays pretty

968
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: pretty level as he walks all the way through, and

969
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: like we follow with him the entire time. UM. So yeah,

970
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 1: like the overall like nerdy and low fi style of

971
01:06:56,960 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: the university video match, like the insane feet of our

972
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 1: chitectural illusion is a really fun mixed like it's like

973
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 1: it's like it's it's it is very like surreal, but

974
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 1: not totally on purpose, because it's just all of these

975
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 1: like regular college students showing this like really cool architecture

976
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 1: by this really good architect and you're like, oh, yeah,

977
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 1: they're just so chill about it. Uh, it is, it is.

978
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 1: It is pretty fun. It's pretty fun. UM. After the

979
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 1: third episode of the Imagine r i T video was posted,

980
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: finally the mind boggling looping staircase of building seven in

981
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: of our T started to gain a lot of confused

982
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 1: appreciation UM, and the dorky University science show went vital.

983
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 1: People started traveling from out of state even other countries

984
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 1: to see the Asherian stairwell themselves of and film videos

985
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 1: on social media as as they walk through it. This

986
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 1: this one video of like people traveling to a different

987
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 1: country and they're like harassing like the school staff to

988
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 1: try to like tell them where it is, and they're like,

989
01:07:57,440 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 1: oh my god, you're still doing this because it was

990
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 1: because like this film was, this video is like like

991
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: years old, but it's it still happens. People still travel

992
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 1: there to to specifically see it. Um. There is like

993
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 1: tense online discussion and debate on how the Filipino architect

994
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 1: Raphael Avugando was able to achieve the effect and what

995
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: kind of other bizarre architectural experiments he may have worked on,

996
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 1: because you can find his Facebook page and you can

997
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 1: find some stuff about him, but he has not really

998
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 1: because like this this steroile was built in the late sixties,

999
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: but you haven't. So he even though he has an

1000
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:30,120
Speaker 1: online presence, he's like he's like he's not like active,

1001
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:34,599
Speaker 1: so it's unclear like what else he's actually been doing. UM,

1002
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 1: but I would I would, I would love to learn

1003
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:39,639
Speaker 1: more about this architect and what else he's done, because

1004
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 1: this it is it is really rare to have these

1005
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 1: very small, condensed but like high effort type like type

1006
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 1: builds and like the the existence of the whole thing.

1007
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 1: Posted some really interesting questions around how extremely clever paradoxical

1008
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: design can push the boundary of how we make assumptions

1009
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 1: about spatial physics UM and how we visually and physically

1010
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 1: demonstrate things that we usually can only depict in two dimensions, right,

1011
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 1: Like you can you can easily depict the the issuing

1012
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:08,800
Speaker 1: in stairwell in two dimensions, but when you're scaling that

1013
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 1: up to three dimensions, it's obviously more work like like that.

1014
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 1: That is that is part of the paradox UM. Plus,

1015
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:17,400
Speaker 1: you know, it also demonstrates the importance of art and

1016
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 1: how ideas once thought impossible or merely optical illusions can

1017
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: actually with enough data, can an effort break into our

1018
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 1: real reality. Uh. If a brilliant architect can manage to

1019
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 1: build this physically and like logically impossible structure, what other

1020
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 1: types of things can we actually view as possible? Um?

1021
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 1: The video now has like over a million views on

1022
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 1: its original upload UM, and videos about the R I

1023
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:40,840
Speaker 1: T stairwell have ranked up as many as like twenty

1024
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 1: five million views. Yeah it's pretty cool. Yeah. You know

1025
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 1: what else demonstrates the looping nature of time. Having to

1026
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 1: listen to all these ads that we do, Ye, we

1027
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 1: we are we are back. I've I've rounded the corner

1028
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,759
Speaker 1: and we are back where we came from. Um. Because

1029
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:08,600
Speaker 1: of the fun paradox of architecture. UM, the one The

1030
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 1: one other thing I should mention before we continue on

1031
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:15,200
Speaker 1: this episode is that the entire thing is fake. It's false.

1032
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 1: No way, not this time. We created it. Not this time, No,

1033
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:23,680
Speaker 1: not this time. It's totally made. Because of course it's

1034
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:26,760
Speaker 1: it's a staircase of breaks the basic rules of movement

1035
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 1: in physics. Kevin walks up the stairs and teleports to

1036
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 1: the lower stairwell. Belief them this this, that's not that's

1037
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 1: that's not an architectural allusion. It's called good video and

1038
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: the thing and a don't be after effects like no,

1039
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:43,879
Speaker 1: you're you're really gonna believe a video on the internet

1040
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: and some well placed, falsified Internet posts over the very

1041
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 1: basic rules that governed our universe. But like, oh boy,

1042
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 1: did it fool millions of people? Um, and if I

1043
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 1: played my cards right, I hope most of our listeners

1044
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 1: until the last few seconds. Um, yeah it is. Uh

1045
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 1: so the whole the whole thing was a was a

1046
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 1: student like film and art project around around building a

1047
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 1: modern myth. Um the it's because it's sure, it's sure.

1048
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:19,720
Speaker 1: Is interesting how good storytelling can overrule obvious logical processes.

1049
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 1: The tale of the Assarian Stairwell is one of my

1050
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 1: favorite case studies and how disinprobation spreads and it's believed

1051
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 1: while all in defiance of the basic rules of reality,

1052
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:31,400
Speaker 1: because it's not a matter of what facts are true,

1053
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 1: it's about what facts are compelling. And the idea of

1054
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:38,679
Speaker 1: a logically impossible staircase being built by a brilliant Filipino

1055
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 1: architect is more interesting than it being someone's weird and

1056
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 1: disinformation art project. Um. So yeah, like I want to say,

1057
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 1: like how what what were you guys thinking as I

1058
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 1: was explaining the Assarian stairwell, Like where did you see

1059
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:56,640
Speaker 1: this going? Okay? So I had in the back of

1060
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:59,479
Speaker 1: my head, okay, we we should we should mention this.

1061
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:04,600
Speaker 1: Garrison has been hyping up this episode for like I

1062
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 1: don't even a pretty smif amount of times nothing, and

1063
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:14,760
Speaker 1: there's a staircase and I'm like what what? And it

1064
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 1: was like my my brain, my brain started going because

1065
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 1: he said and I was like, my like my counterham

1066
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,759
Speaker 1: surgency brain flicked on and I was like wait a second,

1067
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 1: hold time is this like some kind of like weird

1068
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:34,240
Speaker 1: Like we've redesigned the college campuses so they stopped people

1069
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 1: stopped taking the Dean hostage a thing that used to

1070
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:40,560
Speaker 1: happen constantly and with all my favorite party about this

1071
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:43,360
Speaker 1: would happen constantly, and you'd get New York Times articles

1072
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 1: calling it non violent. Yeah, so yeah it was that

1073
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 1: was that was. Yeah. I spent more mental energy that

1074
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 1: I probably should have tried to figure out how it

1075
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 1: would work. And I was like, I don't know, maybe

1076
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:58,720
Speaker 1: they just made it. Like if they just made it

1077
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 1: Acus Razor, it's obviously yeah. I mean I was. I

1078
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 1: was like I was in the like, okay, so they

1079
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 1: built the staircase, they built another the viewers cannot see

1080
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:11,639
Speaker 1: my fingers, and it was like, it's a real staircase.

1081
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:13,800
Speaker 1: It doesn't tell it. It was like it was like,

1082
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:16,680
Speaker 1: but you can't find videos of people traveling to the

1083
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 1: school to see if it's real. And they try it

1084
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,760
Speaker 1: and they're so disappointed. They're like, oh, yeah, it's no,

1085
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: it's just stairs. It doesn't it doesn't. Yeah, it's disappointed

1086
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways because it's not even like

1087
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 1: a thing where like there's like another back staircase that

1088
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:31,639
Speaker 1: you walk down. Then again it's just it's just nothing.

1089
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: It's just stairs. I was hoping there was like so

1090
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 1: actually clever thing is no it's just it's not really,

1091
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 1: It's just it was that meme where all the math

1092
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:49,720
Speaker 1: doesn't add up in the person what is happening? I

1093
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:52,200
Speaker 1: was like, all right, Garrison, you got us here, You

1094
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:56,240
Speaker 1: made Robert get up before noon? What is happening? Well,

1095
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:59,400
Speaker 1: the reason, the real reason I got up before I

1096
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 1: got Bard up before noon is because I actually, um

1097
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 1: have scheduled an interview with the creator of the Assarian Stairwell,

1098
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 1: the actual one be like the online art project and

1099
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:15,559
Speaker 1: building a Modern Myth idea, um, which we are now

1100
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:19,680
Speaker 1: going to segue into. So yeah, what what follows is

1101
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:26,679
Speaker 1: us talking with the creator of the Assarian Stairwell project. Hello,

1102
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:29,920
Speaker 1: we are we are back from our probably very very

1103
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 1: brief break. UM. And with me along with Robert and

1104
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:39,439
Speaker 1: Chris and Sophie is uh Michael, the creator of the

1105
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: Assharian Stairwell project and the Building the Modern Myths project. Hello, greetings,

1106
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:51,559
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us to talk about

1107
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 1: one of my one of my favorite things actually is

1108
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 1: which is here a little to us to project? Um. Yeah,

1109
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 1: I've been a fan of this for a long time

1110
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 1: and found it to be really compelling and interesting. UM

1111
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 1: and I so I just walked through Robert and Chris

1112
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:12,840
Speaker 1: and Sophie what what it what it was? But from

1113
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:16,519
Speaker 1: the perspective of it being true, for like for the

1114
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 1: good fifteen minutes I was I was episode was going

1115
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: was going through talking about it as if it were

1116
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 1: completely real, but curious to hear how you did that

1117
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:31,280
Speaker 1: it was. It was slightly baffling because again we were

1118
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:33,560
Speaker 1: told nothing, and then what we got is Garrison is

1119
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 1: talking about a YouTube video about an architecture thing and

1120
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:43,200
Speaker 1: I was like, what here? Yeah, and then and then

1121
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 1: then talking about how oh yeah, and I guess one

1122
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:48,760
Speaker 1: more thing is that it's actually fake. Um. And it's

1123
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 1: part of this whole, this whole thing. So yeah, I

1124
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:54,479
Speaker 1: would I would love to talk to you about both

1125
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 1: like how how you like logistically like made the project,

1126
01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:01,240
Speaker 1: but also like the underlying you during thoughts that like

1127
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:03,640
Speaker 1: inspired you to do it in the first place, and

1128
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 1: then like retrospected now almost like ten years later, like

1129
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:08,960
Speaker 1: how do you view the project as like happening you know,

1130
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 1: right before like the peak of online disinformation? Um? Right.

1131
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 1: So but first of all, I I just think we

1132
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 1: should probably start started the beginning, like what what was

1133
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 1: your inspirations for this type of like online like there

1134
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:25,120
Speaker 1: because it seems it seems it seems built to go

1135
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 1: viral in a lot of ways. Yes, exactly. So this

1136
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:33,599
Speaker 1: was around twenty eleven, I guess was when I first

1137
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:37,320
Speaker 1: got the idea. It was for my master's thesis, my

1138
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:41,120
Speaker 1: m f A for film at Rochester r I t

1139
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 1: and UM. The idea actually began from this like deep

1140
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:53,840
Speaker 1: anxiety about how to discern fact from fiction. Um. At

1141
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:57,360
Speaker 1: the time, like I came into film school like really

1142
01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:02,439
Speaker 1: into like realism in films like Romanian New Wave mckel

1143
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:05,680
Speaker 1: hanaka dar Dan Brothers, Like these are filmmakers who are

1144
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:08,479
Speaker 1: like they're sort of like the modern day version of

1145
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 1: Italian nero neo realism, and they're trying to like depict

1146
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:15,560
Speaker 1: like these um reality as it is. I wanted to

1147
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:18,800
Speaker 1: like learn how to make those types of films um.

1148
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 1: So over like with each year, that's what I tried

1149
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,320
Speaker 1: to get better at. And the more I tried to

1150
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:29,880
Speaker 1: do that, um well, like a number of things were

1151
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:33,280
Speaker 1: happening around that time. Right in class, they showed us

1152
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:37,320
Speaker 1: these mockumentaries called No Lies, which was made in nineteen

1153
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:40,640
Speaker 1: seventy three by this guy called Mitchell Black actually won

1154
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:44,600
Speaker 1: a student Oscar at the time, and uh Delusions in

1155
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:48,240
Speaker 1: Modern Primitivism two thousand one by this guy named Daniel

1156
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:53,160
Speaker 1: Laughlin UM and these like I was like floored because

1157
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:57,920
Speaker 1: I thought they were real, like real documentaries and um

1158
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 1: and it bothered me, like our teachers still this afterwards

1159
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:05,880
Speaker 1: that these were actually scripted works of fiction with like

1160
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:09,599
Speaker 1: really really good actors, and it like I went into

1161
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:13,600
Speaker 1: kind of like existential crisis mode afterwards, like how do

1162
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:16,560
Speaker 1: I even discern what's true from what's not if I

1163
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:20,280
Speaker 1: got fooled by these things, especially like that's like my concentration,

1164
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 1: that's what I've been studying for years, and even I

1165
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:26,200
Speaker 1: was not even able to tell that they were fake, Right,

1166
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:29,640
Speaker 1: There was that going on, And then there was like

1167
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:32,599
Speaker 1: smartphones were becoming a thing, like I just looked it up.

1168
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:38,240
Speaker 1: Smartphones didn't start out out selling flip phones still, so

1169
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 1: around this time, like it was becoming a thing where

1170
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:43,600
Speaker 1: everyone would have the Internet in their pockets. So I

1171
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:46,840
Speaker 1: guess there was that anxiety going on trying to think about,

1172
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 1: um um, how we're starting to function and how we're

1173
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:56,479
Speaker 1: how I remember when I proposed my thesis to the

1174
01:18:56,560 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: thesis committee, I I UM one of the things things

1175
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:05,200
Speaker 1: that I was telling them was, Um, I have this

1176
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:08,680
Speaker 1: worry about how reliant we are on the internet to

1177
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:11,880
Speaker 1: determine what's true and what's not. And this is like

1178
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:16,520
Speaker 1: like my professors found my concerns like really abstract and theoretical,

1179
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 1: Like why do you even care? Because this right, like

1180
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:22,880
Speaker 1: why didn't you about fact and ficture? It wasn't like

1181
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:26,600
Speaker 1: fake news. That wasn't even a term. It wasn't It

1182
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:29,040
Speaker 1: didn't become part of the every day lexicon, like you said,

1183
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:32,840
Speaker 1: until twenty sixteen when Trump started throwing that term around

1184
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 1: and suddenly we hear about it every day. Um, So

1185
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 1: there was that going on. Trayvon Martin was a thing,

1186
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 1: and for the first time, like nationally, you could see

1187
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:48,960
Speaker 1: like disinformation like on you know, just like exaggerated versions

1188
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 1: of different different accounts from like polarizing sides. So all

1189
01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 1: that was going on, and so I I wanted to

1190
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:03,840
Speaker 1: it was it was this film project was about, um

1191
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 1: trying to take something that was Are you familiar with

1192
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 1: with the difference between like a priori knowledge and a

1193
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: posteriori knowledge? Yeah? Okay, So so so like you know,

1194
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:20,200
Speaker 1: for for anyone who might be listening that doesn't really

1195
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 1: know the exact difference. A priori knowledge is the type

1196
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 1: of knowledge that you can have without needing to make

1197
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:31,479
Speaker 1: observations or conduct experiments or look at surveys or do

1198
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 1: any research of any any kind. Is a sort of

1199
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 1: knowledge you can know just by reasoning it out, but

1200
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 1: just by sitting in a room by yourself in the dark,

1201
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,560
Speaker 1: you could figure things out. This is the sort This

1202
01:20:44,680 --> 01:20:47,680
Speaker 1: is a priori knowledge um. So for an example of

1203
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:51,760
Speaker 1: that is like knowing that all bachelor's are unmarried, right,

1204
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 1: or all triangles of three sides. That's a priori knowledge.

1205
01:20:55,720 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 1: An example of oppos stereori knowledge um is something that

1206
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:05,560
Speaker 1: you find out through observation or you using one or

1207
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:09,280
Speaker 1: more of your five senses, right, like Joe Biden is

1208
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:12,960
Speaker 1: the President of the United States, Um, the masses of

1209
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 1: Mars is six point four one seven one times ten

1210
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:18,360
Speaker 1: to thes you actually have to go out into the

1211
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:21,799
Speaker 1: world and conduct surveys or do research. So that's oppos

1212
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:24,880
Speaker 1: theory or knowledge. So the idea was to take something

1213
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:30,679
Speaker 1: that was a priori false, something that could that could

1214
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:35,600
Speaker 1: um be disproven by reason alone, like you wouldn't have

1215
01:21:36,040 --> 01:21:38,880
Speaker 1: you wouldn't need to do any research. In order to

1216
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:41,200
Speaker 1: to know that it was false, you'd simply had to

1217
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 1: reflect on it and UM think about it. Uh. So

1218
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:48,680
Speaker 1: we could have picked anything, right, we could have We

1219
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:51,559
Speaker 1: could have said made up like a fake news report

1220
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 1: that leaves mathematicians that m I T having invented like

1221
01:21:56,160 --> 01:22:00,200
Speaker 1: a square with five sides, something like that. You know, Um,

1222
01:22:00,520 --> 01:22:03,639
Speaker 1: I remember that weekend up there and SNL had this sketch.

1223
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:07,640
Speaker 1: I think it was like, um, forget who it was.

1224
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:09,760
Speaker 1: It might have been Kevin Nealon or something like that.

1225
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:14,280
Speaker 1: The report was like scientists and mathematicians have discovered the

1226
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:17,720
Speaker 1: new number. The number exists between five and six, and

1227
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:20,320
Speaker 1: they're calling it the numbers spleen, you know, something like that,

1228
01:22:20,520 --> 01:22:25,960
Speaker 1: which is like just impossible. So um, so come up

1229
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 1: with something that could be disproven by reason alone and

1230
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:33,360
Speaker 1: at the same time surrounded with this wealth of online

1231
01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:38,920
Speaker 1: information UM supporting its veracity. So, like you know, it

1232
01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:41,560
Speaker 1: was kind of a social experiment. So I was like,

1233
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:45,560
Speaker 1: have we are we so far beyond rational thinking that

1234
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:50,519
Speaker 1: even something that can be disproven a priori people would

1235
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:52,880
Speaker 1: believe And it was like we didn't really know the

1236
01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:55,280
Speaker 1: answer to that, but we were going to commit to

1237
01:22:55,439 --> 01:22:58,960
Speaker 1: creating this thing as though it was real and but

1238
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 1: which was like logically impossible. So in a way it

1239
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:07,560
Speaker 1: anticipated the age of like this information absolutely because it

1240
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:10,760
Speaker 1: wasn't just the thing I kind of alluded to in

1241
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:12,920
Speaker 1: my little scripted portion is that like, yeah, it wasn't

1242
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:14,719
Speaker 1: just the YouTube video. There was also all this extra

1243
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:19,760
Speaker 1: online content that was created, um, some of which yeah yeah, yeah,

1244
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:21,880
Speaker 1: Like there was you can find like articles for them, posts,

1245
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:24,280
Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff like like like if yeah,

1246
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:25,960
Speaker 1: like so if you could look into it more and

1247
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:28,800
Speaker 1: find these other things, but it's still contradicts the basic

1248
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:32,479
Speaker 1: logical processes that we can use to discern what is

1249
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 1: real what is not, um in terms of like yeah,

1250
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 1: in terms of like believing in a five seed square,

1251
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:39,479
Speaker 1: like no that's not what that that that that's not

1252
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:44,000
Speaker 1: how like physics and like spatial like spatial dimensions work. Um.

1253
01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, and then in terms of all the extra

1254
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:50,519
Speaker 1: material you filmed for it, there was like there was

1255
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 1: like I think I read around like nine hours of

1256
01:23:53,160 --> 01:23:57,680
Speaker 1: documentary footage. Was also like a lot of footage, but

1257
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 1: it was only made into like probably a thirty minute thing. Um.

1258
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:04,960
Speaker 1: We got our friends like at the very very beginning

1259
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:06,680
Speaker 1: we got our friends to play along with it, like

1260
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:09,080
Speaker 1: so whenever you see posts about this, just comment like

1261
01:24:09,400 --> 01:24:11,599
Speaker 1: it's real, Like, yeah, I was there. It was really great,

1262
01:24:12,320 --> 01:24:17,000
Speaker 1: and um, eventually people would actually start visiting the stairwell,

1263
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:20,880
Speaker 1: like from all over, like from Canada. They crossed the

1264
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:24,479
Speaker 1: border to get there because it's in upstate New York, right, Um.

1265
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:28,360
Speaker 1: And I actually ran into a couple from India who

1266
01:24:28,439 --> 01:24:30,840
Speaker 1: happened to be visiting visiting New York, and they were like,

1267
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:33,200
Speaker 1: since we're here, we'd like to see this starewell that

1268
01:24:33,320 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Um, I know. I felt really bad

1269
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:40,160
Speaker 1: for a lot of the visitors, so we actually had

1270
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:43,200
Speaker 1: to come up with souvenirs so that they wouldn't leave

1271
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:46,640
Speaker 1: empty handed, right, So we made fake we made postcards

1272
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 1: like saying I've been to the Share and Starell and

1273
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:53,640
Speaker 1: stuff like that program and um what happened and the

1274
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:55,640
Speaker 1: way we explained it, so a lot of people were

1275
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:58,160
Speaker 1: really mad actually you know, as you can imagine when

1276
01:24:58,160 --> 01:25:02,280
Speaker 1: they got there, but after or um, we would explain

1277
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:05,240
Speaker 1: what we were doing to them with the project. Like

1278
01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:07,840
Speaker 1: a lot of them actually like started playing along and

1279
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:10,240
Speaker 1: thought was really cool, and they went home with their

1280
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:12,760
Speaker 1: souvenirs and told their friends that they just saw this

1281
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:15,120
Speaker 1: amazing thing. So, you know, it kind of built that

1282
01:25:15,240 --> 01:25:17,439
Speaker 1: way for a little bit. I mean yeah, because it's

1283
01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:21,040
Speaker 1: it's like telling kids that Santa isn't real exactly, and

1284
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:22,920
Speaker 1: then some of them will be like play along with

1285
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:24,760
Speaker 1: like okay, cool, this means I can play along with

1286
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:27,280
Speaker 1: the myth to help you other kids happy. And some

1287
01:25:27,320 --> 01:25:30,080
Speaker 1: of them will be like what, oh no, my entire

1288
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 1: reality is broken. And when you find out, is your

1289
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:38,600
Speaker 1: trying to like pass it on exactly that. So a

1290
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:42,680
Speaker 1: lot of that was going on, like Shock the basketball

1291
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:45,360
Speaker 1: player posted about it. At some point, Joe Rogan talked

1292
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:48,320
Speaker 1: about it on his podcast. They got kind of crazy.

1293
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:54,200
Speaker 1: Wait wait did Joe Rogan know it wasn't real? Um,

1294
01:25:54,439 --> 01:25:56,439
Speaker 1: it's funny. You should see the clip of him doing it,

1295
01:25:56,479 --> 01:25:58,320
Speaker 1: because he was like it was him, and who's the

1296
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,760
Speaker 1: other guy, Bert Kreiser or something. Anyway, they were arguing

1297
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:03,680
Speaker 1: about whether or not was really. The other guy was like, no,

1298
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:07,280
Speaker 1: it's real, it's so real. Was like, all you guys

1299
01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:10,120
Speaker 1: are fucking idiots. You're all idiots. Let's google it right now.

1300
01:26:10,640 --> 01:26:13,479
Speaker 1: They google it and they look up an article and

1301
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:16,639
Speaker 1: Joe Joe Rogan's like Okay, yeah, all right, it's still

1302
01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:19,560
Speaker 1: fucking stupid. The guy who built it is fucking you know.

1303
01:26:20,280 --> 01:26:24,840
Speaker 1: That is so good. I you have You have no

1304
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:27,479
Speaker 1: idea how happy you have faked me because I in

1305
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:29,960
Speaker 1: my in my research, but like like I have like

1306
01:26:30,080 --> 01:26:32,760
Speaker 1: read your thesis. I read all the lots of articles

1307
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 1: about this. I did not come across the Joe Rogan clip,

1308
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:40,600
Speaker 1: but I would right right, Um it's like way back right,

1309
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 1: it's like ten years ago, and it's like a lot

1310
01:26:42,439 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 1: of stuff to dig through and I found it though. Again,

1311
01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:48,280
Speaker 1: um so I'd like to kind of go to like

1312
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 1: the logistics of like actually doing this in terms of

1313
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 1: like creating all the fake like web content, but also

1314
01:26:53,080 --> 01:26:56,960
Speaker 1: like you know, dreaming up this like family friendly science

1315
01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:59,600
Speaker 1: show that's made by r I T Like how like

1316
01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:02,160
Speaker 1: you know the thing between like naturalism and realism and

1317
01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:05,920
Speaker 1: making it like playing not trying to replicate reality, but

1318
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:08,760
Speaker 1: playing as if it were reality, and how those those

1319
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:13,040
Speaker 1: are two different things. Um yeah, well, what we wanted

1320
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:16,160
Speaker 1: to make it as real as possible, and like that's

1321
01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 1: what I was was. I'd been studying anyway, but in

1322
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:25,120
Speaker 1: like a dramatic context, like making narrative films UM, and

1323
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:29,080
Speaker 1: the idea was to, um, there's this event at r

1324
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:31,160
Speaker 1: I t every year which gets a lot of people,

1325
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:34,240
Speaker 1: like thirty thou people a year. Go to the campus

1326
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:38,719
Speaker 1: and look at like, um, these uh whatever the students

1327
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:40,720
Speaker 1: are working on. It's kind of like a mini like

1328
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:43,920
Speaker 1: festival type of thing. Well, not many is pretty big,

1329
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:46,880
Speaker 1: So we we wanted to make a video for that event.

1330
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:50,080
Speaker 1: UM as though we were promoting the event, Hey, come

1331
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:52,600
Speaker 1: see the assurance there. Well, when you get your r

1332
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:56,120
Speaker 1: I t UM and you know you normally for these

1333
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:58,840
Speaker 1: like for these for these events, if you have a

1334
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:01,400
Speaker 1: booth or something, you'll see reservations and you'll see like

1335
01:28:01,439 --> 01:28:04,679
Speaker 1: four people reserve fifteen people. Like we were like started

1336
01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:07,679
Speaker 1: getting nervous, and we found out we got a sense

1337
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:10,080
Speaker 1: that this was gonna be big because like when I

1338
01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:14,560
Speaker 1: looked at like the reservations for like our non existent stairwell,

1339
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:20,479
Speaker 1: there were like one thousand plus visitors visited. Um. Yeah.

1340
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 1: I still remember like going to campus that day at

1341
01:28:24,160 --> 01:28:27,880
Speaker 1: the festival Saturday, and like my friend Ira like comes

1342
01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:30,479
Speaker 1: up to me. He's like, Mike, people want to kill you,

1343
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:32,920
Speaker 1: Like cover get over here, And I was like trying

1344
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:36,600
Speaker 1: to not show my faith, but anyway, yeah, that's what.

1345
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 1: So what the way, Like a lot of the legs

1346
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:42,759
Speaker 1: of the project was just like word of mouth, I guess,

1347
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 1: and we actually ran out of money. Um, we didn't

1348
01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:49,400
Speaker 1: get to do like the web stuff on the scale

1349
01:28:49,479 --> 01:28:51,880
Speaker 1: that we wanted to. But it turned out that we

1350
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:55,160
Speaker 1: didn't even have to. In fact, like within a few

1351
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:58,879
Speaker 1: days or maybe a week or something after the original

1352
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 1: video came out, I posted a video explaining that it's

1353
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:05,160
Speaker 1: a myth. Like I posted it and I was like,

1354
01:29:05,200 --> 01:29:07,479
Speaker 1: all right, that was a fun ride. Now I's gonna

1355
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:12,720
Speaker 1: be over because here's a video of me explaining everything, right,

1356
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:15,640
Speaker 1: And people still didn't believe it. People were saying that

1357
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:19,240
Speaker 1: my my video explaining was fake, that was a conspiracy.

1358
01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 1: Like people were, you know, like there so invested the

1359
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:26,040
Speaker 1: inside the actual myth of it. Yeah, because it is

1360
01:29:26,720 --> 01:29:29,120
Speaker 1: it is so much for a lot of people, they

1361
01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:31,720
Speaker 1: thought that is more compelling than the idea that it

1362
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:35,000
Speaker 1: is this like you know, project around what is real

1363
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:37,400
Speaker 1: what's not. They've got so invested in the reality of

1364
01:29:37,479 --> 01:29:42,320
Speaker 1: it that they'll explain away every other explanation, right right,

1365
01:29:43,439 --> 01:29:49,320
Speaker 1: um exactly, Like my I had a teacher at Rutgers

1366
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 1: where I did my undergrad to Maudlin. He used to

1367
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:54,519
Speaker 1: say that, you know, there's two types of thinking. There's

1368
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:59,400
Speaker 1: reasoning and there's rationalizing. Reasoning is when when you start

1369
01:29:59,479 --> 01:30:02,800
Speaker 1: from a play so ignorance, and you, um, look at

1370
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:05,519
Speaker 1: the best evidence and the best arguments you can find

1371
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:09,680
Speaker 1: and follow that through to the you know, the rational conclusion.

1372
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:13,880
Speaker 1: Rationalizing is when you start from what you want to

1373
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:19,920
Speaker 1: believe and working backwards and looking for you confirmations right,

1374
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:22,920
Speaker 1: looking for the arguments that are already support where you're thaying. There.

1375
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:26,240
Speaker 1: There was a lot of a lot of rationalizing going on.

1376
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:32,760
Speaker 1: I guess people wanted to believe it. Yeah, for for

1377
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:35,920
Speaker 1: the how much how many people because they assume for

1378
01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:37,760
Speaker 1: all of the filming like like everyone was all like

1379
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:39,680
Speaker 1: in on it. But yeah, you know, there a whole

1380
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:41,120
Speaker 1: bunch of great stuff around, like all of like the

1381
01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:43,559
Speaker 1: Men on the Street segments are are are like perfectly

1382
01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:46,519
Speaker 1: done in terms of like people like just acting like

1383
01:30:46,560 --> 01:30:50,479
Speaker 1: regular university students, like talking about the stairwell and like

1384
01:30:50,520 --> 01:30:52,799
Speaker 1: how they've got like lost, and then they're like looping

1385
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:55,880
Speaker 1: around in a circle. Um, and all the segments with

1386
01:30:55,960 --> 01:30:58,920
Speaker 1: you with like inside the stairwell with all like the

1387
01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 1: very like the very clever other thing. I assume you're

1388
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:05,280
Speaker 1: using stuff like Adobe after effects um, and yeah, it's

1389
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:08,720
Speaker 1: it is played. It's played so well like it's it's

1390
01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:10,040
Speaker 1: I think part of the part of why it's so

1391
01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 1: successful is that it's not filmed like you would film

1392
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:15,840
Speaker 1: something too high like like like for a lot of

1393
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:17,519
Speaker 1: films when they want to do like like you know,

1394
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:20,479
Speaker 1: like like ah the term is like a wonner where

1395
01:31:20,479 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 1: they has like one long shot and then they like

1396
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:24,839
Speaker 1: hide the transitions in between. You can you can obviously

1397
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:26,960
Speaker 1: tell like they're filming it to make these transitions work

1398
01:31:27,439 --> 01:31:29,960
Speaker 1: versus the way you film. This is just how people

1399
01:31:30,040 --> 01:31:32,760
Speaker 1: would film it if they were filming this four reel

1400
01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:36,040
Speaker 1: um and they tell that, and it's it is so

1401
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:40,760
Speaker 1: carefully done because it's not trying to be something it is.

1402
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:44,080
Speaker 1: It is just being the thing so earnestly in terms

1403
01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:46,639
Speaker 1: of like how how the actors like stumble over their

1404
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:49,640
Speaker 1: lines and the like the opening segment, um, like the

1405
01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:51,960
Speaker 1: aesthetics of like all of like the title cards and

1406
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:55,120
Speaker 1: everything is just so it has this has this like

1407
01:31:55,240 --> 01:31:58,400
Speaker 1: aura of earnestness, which I think helps sells the whole

1408
01:31:58,439 --> 01:32:03,200
Speaker 1: project so so much. Yeah. Yeah, actually speaking of the

1409
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:06,600
Speaker 1: show and like the cheesy title cards and stuff, my

1410
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:09,679
Speaker 1: girlfriend at the time was a producer for this show

1411
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:14,240
Speaker 1: called this local show called Homework Cutline and where kids

1412
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 1: calling with their homework and they answer questions about it.

1413
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:20,759
Speaker 1: I studied the ship out of that show, just looking

1414
01:32:20,840 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: at how they built the sets and how cheesy and

1415
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:26,960
Speaker 1: how awkward like the hosts were, because a lot of

1416
01:32:27,080 --> 01:32:29,240
Speaker 1: it was like a lot of the realism I think

1417
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:33,080
Speaker 1: of it is just um, yeah, the awkwardness of the people,

1418
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:36,680
Speaker 1: how it's not, um, it's not really meant to be

1419
01:32:36,880 --> 01:32:41,680
Speaker 1: and and like like the best the most convincing untruths,

1420
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:45,280
Speaker 1: right is a combination of fact and fiction and you

1421
01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 1: know a lot of and blending in the actors with

1422
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:52,120
Speaker 1: real people you know, in in in the in the

1423
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 1: actual video stuff like that. It's like, yeah, like it

1424
01:32:55,320 --> 01:33:01,800
Speaker 1: comes goes pretty viral. Um, you like pretty quick create

1425
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:04,519
Speaker 1: a very easy explanation for no, it's not it's not real.

1426
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:06,599
Speaker 1: It's started this project. People still believe it for years

1427
01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:09,519
Speaker 1: and years. Um. As kind of the decade progresses and

1428
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:12,880
Speaker 1: we go into like the era of disinformation, everyone starts

1429
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:15,120
Speaker 1: getting phones in their pockets. Everyone has Facebook with them

1430
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:17,160
Speaker 1: wherever they go, everyone has Twitter with them wherever they go.

1431
01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:19,599
Speaker 1: How is kind of your views on like the ethics

1432
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:22,760
Speaker 1: of the project and what it demonstrates in terms of

1433
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:24,640
Speaker 1: like a case study and like a social experiment, Like

1434
01:33:24,680 --> 01:33:26,720
Speaker 1: how has that changed over the years from like you

1435
01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:29,120
Speaker 1: like ten years ago when you're dreaming this up to

1436
01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:32,320
Speaker 1: you now after you know, we've had stuff like you know,

1437
01:33:32,479 --> 01:33:35,280
Speaker 1: like January six and two and on, you know, all

1438
01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:37,400
Speaker 1: these types of things which I feel like if are

1439
01:33:37,439 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 1: almost like foreshadowed in this in this weird way by

1440
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 1: showing how successful your little project is. Yeah, so a

1441
01:33:46,360 --> 01:33:49,760
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of the criticisms that it was

1442
01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:53,840
Speaker 1: face from the get go, like from R I. T. Professors,

1443
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:57,120
Speaker 1: even it's still facing right now, Like it's still the

1444
01:33:57,200 --> 01:34:00,360
Speaker 1: type of thing people bring up, which is set actually

1445
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:04,120
Speaker 1: that hey, there's so much disinformation out there. At the time,

1446
01:34:04,160 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 1: we weren't even using those terms disinformation disinformation, right, but

1447
01:34:08,200 --> 01:34:11,760
Speaker 1: basically people were. We're bringing up the same complaints, which

1448
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:16,000
Speaker 1: is there's so much disinformation out there, you're basically just

1449
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:18,560
Speaker 1: adding to it. What what are you even doing? So

1450
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:22,880
Speaker 1: I guess the idea is that and you know, It's

1451
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:29,080
Speaker 1: a very noble idea, which is what's our response to disinformation? Right,

1452
01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 1: we should I guess the idea is we should call

1453
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:35,320
Speaker 1: out every instance of it when we can flag posts, UM,

1454
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:41,040
Speaker 1: report posts that violate community community standards, you know, speak out, UM,

1455
01:34:41,160 --> 01:34:44,000
Speaker 1: provide counter evidence when you see fake news that sort

1456
01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:47,840
Speaker 1: of thing, And I think that's great, that's a good thing, UM.

1457
01:34:48,040 --> 01:34:53,160
Speaker 1: But disinformation. The problem of disinformation is at the time.

1458
01:34:53,320 --> 01:34:55,200
Speaker 1: This is kind of how I explained that, like ten

1459
01:34:55,320 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 1: years ago, I I described it as a pen as

1460
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:01,600
Speaker 1: an epidemic, Yeah, no, absolutely right, or or like a

1461
01:35:01,680 --> 01:35:05,320
Speaker 1: cockroach infestation, like every time you kill one, ten more

1462
01:35:05,400 --> 01:35:09,200
Speaker 1: spring up. And the this this notion of like we

1463
01:35:09,360 --> 01:35:13,040
Speaker 1: gotta call out every instance of disinformation and stomp it

1464
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:18,360
Speaker 1: away is like it's great, but you're focused on killing cockroaches. Yeah,

1465
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:20,800
Speaker 1: it's like addressing the symptoms not the actual problem. Right,

1466
01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:24,000
Speaker 1: I want to get to the cockroach's nest. Right. And

1467
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:29,000
Speaker 1: whenever whenever I give talks about this UM this project,

1468
01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:32,840
Speaker 1: people always approach me afterwards, you know, like wanting me

1469
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:35,000
Speaker 1: to kind of because we we don't just talk about

1470
01:35:35,040 --> 01:35:37,439
Speaker 1: this project. We talk about like deep fake stuff, like

1471
01:35:37,560 --> 01:35:41,439
Speaker 1: we show speeches of Obama like looking like the real Obama,

1472
01:35:41,479 --> 01:35:44,640
Speaker 1: but it's like completely fake, right, And people start to

1473
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 1: realize the holy sh it, like I don't even know

1474
01:35:47,080 --> 01:35:49,280
Speaker 1: what's real or not anymore, Like what can I trust?

1475
01:35:49,360 --> 01:35:53,040
Speaker 1: And they approach me expecting me to ease their anxiety

1476
01:35:53,200 --> 01:35:55,479
Speaker 1: somehow and kind of like guide them through how to

1477
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:59,280
Speaker 1: discern what's true from what's not, as though my project

1478
01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:03,320
Speaker 1: was about finding some sort of solution, And I tell

1479
01:36:03,400 --> 01:36:07,000
Speaker 1: them that, like, my project wasn't about solving the problem.

1480
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:10,720
Speaker 1: It was about seeing the problem, right, It's about it's

1481
01:36:10,760 --> 01:36:13,240
Speaker 1: about trying to get to the heart of the matter.

1482
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:16,160
Speaker 1: And it's like to me, I think, like the heart

1483
01:36:16,240 --> 01:36:21,400
Speaker 1: of the matter, like the cockroach's nest is the I

1484
01:36:21,439 --> 01:36:24,679
Speaker 1: don't know you. There are different ways to say, but basically,

1485
01:36:24,800 --> 01:36:28,960
Speaker 1: the the lack of critical thinking and individuals and like

1486
01:36:29,080 --> 01:36:33,840
Speaker 1: in this society we shaped together or um or lack

1487
01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:37,160
Speaker 1: of a willingness to think through things carefully. Maybe that's

1488
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:41,720
Speaker 1: that's um. That's like if we had a society of

1489
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:44,320
Speaker 1: critical thinkers, this wouldn't be much of a problem. I

1490
01:36:44,400 --> 01:36:46,680
Speaker 1: think it's because so many people come at a lot

1491
01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:49,599
Speaker 1: of information from like when you would say the rational

1492
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:52,599
Speaker 1: viewpoint it's like they're trying to use reason and stuff,

1493
01:36:52,600 --> 01:36:54,959
Speaker 1: like they're trying to think critically, they're trying to think logically,

1494
01:36:55,360 --> 01:36:57,880
Speaker 1: but they come at it in terms of rationalizing stuff

1495
01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:01,599
Speaker 1: they already believe. Um. And I think that's a very

1496
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:04,320
Speaker 1: prevailing type of idea in terms of like, yes, I'm

1497
01:37:04,360 --> 01:37:06,320
Speaker 1: gonna believe in this thing, so I'm gonna find evidence

1498
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:10,840
Speaker 1: to support it um, which isn't critical thinking. I don't think.

1499
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:13,439
Speaker 1: I not really know that it is. That is itself

1500
01:37:13,479 --> 01:37:16,160
Speaker 1: a logical fallacy. But that is so calm, especially on

1501
01:37:16,200 --> 01:37:19,080
Speaker 1: the Internet, because the Internet encourages the backfire effects. You know,

1502
01:37:19,120 --> 01:37:22,080
Speaker 1: whenever someone calls in on something, you want to be right.

1503
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:24,559
Speaker 1: So you're gonna as soon as as soon as someone

1504
01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:26,840
Speaker 1: calls something, you're going to backfire. You're going to like

1505
01:37:27,320 --> 01:37:31,160
Speaker 1: become even more entrenched in what you believe. Um when

1506
01:37:31,200 --> 01:37:33,200
Speaker 1: you you know, when when you explain to someone that know,

1507
01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:36,160
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton is bad, but she doesn't eat the blood

1508
01:37:36,200 --> 01:37:39,120
Speaker 1: of children, like, no, she does. I saw all this thing.

1509
01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 1: I have to believe it because like all of the

1510
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:43,000
Speaker 1: things that are tied up in what makes you a person,

1511
01:37:43,080 --> 01:37:46,200
Speaker 1: and now all of these ideas that have that where

1512
01:37:46,280 --> 01:37:47,800
Speaker 1: used to be just be. Conspiracy theories that you could

1513
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:50,200
Speaker 1: believe in for fun are now so a part of

1514
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:53,439
Speaker 1: like what people's sense of being are and how they

1515
01:37:53,520 --> 01:37:56,360
Speaker 1: have their entire world view that there's so much more

1516
01:37:57,560 --> 01:37:59,639
Speaker 1: because the Internet is such a bigger part of their lives.

1517
01:37:59,720 --> 01:38:01,320
Speaker 1: Everything on the Internet is a bigger part of the

1518
01:38:01,400 --> 01:38:03,439
Speaker 1: lives for each person. So it is more of an

1519
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:06,439
Speaker 1: ontological threat because these things are so closer together now, right,

1520
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:08,400
Speaker 1: They used to be much more distinction between the Internet

1521
01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:10,400
Speaker 1: and you because you can only ask the computer every

1522
01:38:10,439 --> 01:38:12,040
Speaker 1: once in a while. We can now carry around a

1523
01:38:12,120 --> 01:38:14,400
Speaker 1: supercomputer wherever we go, so it is like a part

1524
01:38:14,479 --> 01:38:16,200
Speaker 1: of you. Like you bring it with you almost everywhere.

1525
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:18,800
Speaker 1: It's always in your pocket. So these things are so

1526
01:38:19,800 --> 01:38:23,479
Speaker 1: like stitched together that prying them apart and telling people

1527
01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 1: know this thing you would carry around actually probably most

1528
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:28,960
Speaker 1: don't you see on it isn't isn't actually true? Like

1529
01:38:29,240 --> 01:38:32,679
Speaker 1: there is People can like believe that in their heads

1530
01:38:33,160 --> 01:38:36,280
Speaker 1: but don't actually don't. Actually the belief doesn't actually impact

1531
01:38:36,280 --> 01:38:38,519
Speaker 1: them because like we all know that there's like well

1532
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 1: we all know that people can still on the Internet

1533
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:42,160
Speaker 1: and lie, right there is like part of the joke,

1534
01:38:42,640 --> 01:38:45,760
Speaker 1: but we still don't act like it, Like oftentimes we

1535
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:50,160
Speaker 1: get so we get so like encased into the stories

1536
01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:52,040
Speaker 1: that we tell ourselves. Right, the part of why the

1537
01:38:52,040 --> 01:38:54,240
Speaker 1: Issharing stairwell is so good is that it's such a

1538
01:38:54,280 --> 01:38:56,519
Speaker 1: it's such a compelling story like that, Like the idea

1539
01:38:56,520 --> 01:38:59,599
Speaker 1: of like a brilliant architect bringing like you know, building

1540
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:03,479
Speaker 1: is paradox in the real world is like, is so

1541
01:39:03,640 --> 01:39:06,600
Speaker 1: much more fun than being like, yeah, some dude just

1542
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:09,840
Speaker 1: knows how to use Adobe after effects. Like right, So

1543
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:13,920
Speaker 1: you get so entrenched in the storytelling because the story

1544
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:16,960
Speaker 1: of like politicians eating the eating the blood of children

1545
01:39:17,280 --> 01:39:20,400
Speaker 1: is so much more interesting than no, politicians just don't

1546
01:39:20,439 --> 01:39:23,760
Speaker 1: care about you, like, and getting to the heart of

1547
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:26,720
Speaker 1: that problem is so much more difficult than just you know,

1548
01:39:27,080 --> 01:39:29,760
Speaker 1: debunking things, because you can debunk things all day and

1549
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:34,320
Speaker 1: does that actually matter? Yeah? I think there there's there's

1550
01:39:34,320 --> 01:39:36,439
Speaker 1: a secondary problem that like you know, there's another like

1551
01:39:37,120 --> 01:39:38,640
Speaker 1: a lether level of it, which is that, yeah, like

1552
01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:42,240
Speaker 1: everyone knows that there's information now, like everyone does. But

1553
01:39:42,320 --> 01:39:44,640
Speaker 1: but that just makes it worse because now if you

1554
01:39:44,680 --> 01:39:46,720
Speaker 1: want to do this information, what you can claim is like, oh, hey,

1555
01:39:46,760 --> 01:39:48,759
Speaker 1: look at all these other times that all the stuff

1556
01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:50,120
Speaker 1: has been fake, and then you know, and this is

1557
01:39:50,160 --> 01:39:53,240
Speaker 1: how you get everyone like doing frame by frame analysis

1558
01:39:53,280 --> 01:39:55,160
Speaker 1: of like a bombing and going oh, these are all

1559
01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:58,040
Speaker 1: crisis actors. And it's like you know, and you like

1560
01:39:58,120 --> 01:40:00,240
Speaker 1: you talk to these people and they're like, oh, no,

1561
01:40:00,320 --> 01:40:02,600
Speaker 1: I I did. I did the research. Look I like

1562
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:04,760
Speaker 1: I saw through the lives. It's like, no, You've just

1563
01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:07,519
Speaker 1: completely made this thing up in your head. You can

1564
01:40:07,600 --> 01:40:10,560
Speaker 1: see the green screen compression. They're like, no, it's just

1565
01:40:10,680 --> 01:40:13,439
Speaker 1: regular video compression. And it's like yeah, like everyone can

1566
01:40:13,479 --> 01:40:16,280
Speaker 1: be a detective now, so everyone can be so convinced

1567
01:40:16,320 --> 01:40:18,559
Speaker 1: to their own conclusions even when the conclusions turn out

1568
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:23,760
Speaker 1: to be not true. Right, it's a problem. If there

1569
01:40:23,840 --> 01:40:26,519
Speaker 1: was an exy solution, we wouldn't have the problem. Right.

1570
01:40:26,560 --> 01:40:28,799
Speaker 1: It's one of those things where it's like your project

1571
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:31,400
Speaker 1: is a very good example of like it's it's it's

1572
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:34,000
Speaker 1: it's a very demonstrative thing. You can like you you

1573
01:40:34,160 --> 01:40:37,000
Speaker 1: take someone along this journey and demonstrate, hey, this can

1574
01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:39,040
Speaker 1: happen to you, so you should watch out for us. Right,

1575
01:40:39,280 --> 01:40:41,560
Speaker 1: Look look at the story I crafted. Look how you

1576
01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:44,080
Speaker 1: become convinced of it for these six minutes and then

1577
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:47,560
Speaker 1: you think, oh wait, no, you can't teleport to a

1578
01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:50,439
Speaker 1: bottom stairwell. That's not that's not how that works. Um.

1579
01:40:50,920 --> 01:40:53,160
Speaker 1: But because you take them on that journey, it's a

1580
01:40:53,280 --> 01:40:54,880
Speaker 1: very it's a I love it so much as like

1581
01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:59,160
Speaker 1: a demonstrative process being like like this can happen, so

1582
01:40:59,280 --> 01:41:01,240
Speaker 1: watch out for in the future. Do you think is

1583
01:41:01,280 --> 01:41:07,240
Speaker 1: honestly more useful than just debunking somebody because you can

1584
01:41:07,280 --> 01:41:10,160
Speaker 1: debunk all day, you can have the backfire effect and stuff. Yeah,

1585
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:13,120
Speaker 1: And you're right about the demonstrative stuff, because it's like

1586
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:16,960
Speaker 1: if a bunch of film students and volunteers with no

1587
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:20,720
Speaker 1: connections and no resources pulled this off like we did,

1588
01:41:20,840 --> 01:41:24,240
Speaker 1: like a tally of all the videos at the end

1589
01:41:24,280 --> 01:41:27,160
Speaker 1: of the year of um, you know, all the videos

1590
01:41:27,240 --> 01:41:29,400
Speaker 1: that ripped it off and posted on their own channels

1591
01:41:29,439 --> 01:41:32,439
Speaker 1: and all that, Um, it was like fifty million, right.

1592
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 1: So if if a bunch of film students like had

1593
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:38,760
Speaker 1: that much influence, what more can like people who are

1594
01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:45,280
Speaker 1: actually fun like power and resources, right, what could they do?

1595
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:48,280
Speaker 1: And we were just doing and ours was about like

1596
01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:52,120
Speaker 1: this innocuous, silly stairwell. It wasn't about anything that would

1597
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:56,160
Speaker 1: cause you know, anyone's death or anything like that, or

1598
01:41:57,360 --> 01:42:00,160
Speaker 1: and like you know, something like in me and are

1599
01:42:00,520 --> 01:42:07,719
Speaker 1: where the ME and MAR military basically systemically systematically created

1600
01:42:07,920 --> 01:42:12,799
Speaker 1: fake articles and fake photos to create like to arouse

1601
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:16,280
Speaker 1: dis dame for the row hinge of people and basically

1602
01:42:16,360 --> 01:42:20,760
Speaker 1: they incited a genocide through Facebook, just through fake news

1603
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:24,120
Speaker 1: right in the Philippines where I live right now. Um,

1604
01:42:25,080 --> 01:42:29,200
Speaker 1: which a lot of commentators call like the patient zero

1605
01:42:29,600 --> 01:42:36,519
Speaker 1: of disinformation because this guy called was elected president basically

1606
01:42:37,120 --> 01:42:41,800
Speaker 1: ran running his entire campaign on disinformation, and after him

1607
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:44,560
Speaker 1: was Brexit like a month later, and after that was

1608
01:42:44,840 --> 01:42:48,120
Speaker 1: Trump got the nomination. So like what's her named Kate

1609
01:42:48,280 --> 01:42:51,840
Speaker 1: Katie Barth, Barth or or something like that. One of

1610
01:42:51,880 --> 01:42:55,439
Speaker 1: the executives of Facebook referred to the Philippines as patient

1611
01:42:55,600 --> 01:43:01,439
Speaker 1: zero in the era disinformation because like, um, and the

1612
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:06,000
Speaker 1: thing that the president here right now was running on

1613
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:10,800
Speaker 1: was basically like the same sort of um bothering and

1614
01:43:10,960 --> 01:43:13,720
Speaker 1: scapegoating of a certain group. And he said, basically he's

1615
01:43:13,760 --> 01:43:16,599
Speaker 1: the guy who said, like basically, if you're a drug

1616
01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:19,080
Speaker 1: user or a drug dealer, it should be okay to

1617
01:43:19,200 --> 01:43:21,920
Speaker 1: murder you and kill you. And that's what happened. That's

1618
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:25,200
Speaker 1: exactly what happened because they were posting all these stories

1619
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:29,479
Speaker 1: about um, you know the same sorts of stories that

1620
01:43:29,640 --> 01:43:32,280
Speaker 1: you that that we saw in the US in twenties

1621
01:43:32,360 --> 01:43:35,960
Speaker 1: sixteen about undocumented immigrants or Muslims or something like that.

1622
01:43:36,439 --> 01:43:39,400
Speaker 1: This like oh, this undocumented immigrant raped the five year

1623
01:43:39,400 --> 01:43:42,840
Speaker 1: old girl, you know that sort of thing. And he

1624
01:43:42,920 --> 01:43:48,439
Speaker 1: would the the the organized campaign um making up stories

1625
01:43:48,479 --> 01:43:53,960
Speaker 1: about drug addicts like murdering and raping people. Basically like

1626
01:43:54,240 --> 01:43:58,320
Speaker 1: got an entire nation too, well, not an entire nation,

1627
01:43:58,439 --> 01:44:02,720
Speaker 1: but basically this guy on the election and you know,

1628
01:44:03,360 --> 01:44:07,880
Speaker 1: we have a country right now that basically lived through

1629
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:12,720
Speaker 1: just atrocities the last five six years, you know. And

1630
01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:15,479
Speaker 1: like the double edged sort of this, like Chris mentioned,

1631
01:44:15,600 --> 01:44:19,400
Speaker 1: is like yeah, this type same type of thing. Because

1632
01:44:19,439 --> 01:44:22,840
Speaker 1: it exists, people also like retroractively apply it to like

1633
01:44:23,240 --> 01:44:26,400
Speaker 1: you know, like Sandy Hook was staged or like even

1634
01:44:26,479 --> 01:44:29,240
Speaker 1: stuff now with like you know the pandemic, right, people

1635
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:31,400
Speaker 1: like what if what is what if the pandemic is

1636
01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:33,240
Speaker 1: a real? What if all these people have just you

1637
01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:36,479
Speaker 1: know conjured this thing into being and it's all a

1638
01:44:36,640 --> 01:44:39,479
Speaker 1: giant insifferation campaign, right, So it has this dual it

1639
01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:43,040
Speaker 1: has this double edged sword nature um, which makes combat

1640
01:44:43,080 --> 01:44:46,559
Speaker 1: and information so challenging. It's like disiforation to combat information,

1641
01:44:46,640 --> 01:44:49,960
Speaker 1: to connect the idea of disinformation, and there's so many

1642
01:44:50,479 --> 01:44:54,519
Speaker 1: layers of it. Now, this, this, this, it's just yeah,

1643
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:56,360
Speaker 1: it makes it, It makes actually get into the heart

1644
01:44:56,400 --> 01:44:58,479
Speaker 1: of it so much more challenging. It's been abstracted so

1645
01:44:58,600 --> 01:45:02,200
Speaker 1: many times. One of the things what didn't didn't the

1646
01:45:02,240 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 1: New York Times weren't it the first people to come

1647
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:05,559
Speaker 1: up with the term fake news? And then Trump started

1648
01:45:05,640 --> 01:45:09,800
Speaker 1: using it after like were watching Potificate, which newsuper was.

1649
01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:11,479
Speaker 1: But my memory if it was like it was, it

1650
01:45:11,560 --> 01:45:12,920
Speaker 1: was it was the media that came up with fake

1651
01:45:12,960 --> 01:45:15,960
Speaker 1: news and then like Trump just took it and it

1652
01:45:16,040 --> 01:45:19,519
Speaker 1: became this like this just like demon they absolutely could

1653
01:45:19,560 --> 01:45:22,760
Speaker 1: not control and was just turned on them. Do you

1654
01:45:22,880 --> 01:45:25,400
Speaker 1: do you remember the context in which they used it.

1655
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:28,439
Speaker 1: They were like they were I think they were calling

1656
01:45:29,280 --> 01:45:33,559
Speaker 1: like stuff that Trump said fake news. M M I am.

1657
01:45:33,600 --> 01:45:37,519
Speaker 1: I'm unsure at the moment who specifically coined to that term.

1658
01:45:38,280 --> 01:45:40,439
Speaker 1: But I mean we definitely see in terms like even

1659
01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:43,160
Speaker 1: in even terms like desperation, which used to be more

1660
01:45:43,240 --> 01:45:46,479
Speaker 1: tied to like a discording in philosophy, breaking like in

1661
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:48,760
Speaker 1: like even even back even as back far as like

1662
01:45:48,800 --> 01:45:51,760
Speaker 1: the eighties, getting you know, turned into an actual like

1663
01:45:51,880 --> 01:45:56,479
Speaker 1: political term that everybody uses. It was actually somebody from

1664
01:45:56,600 --> 01:45:59,600
Speaker 1: buzz Speed. An editor at buzz Speed was one of

1665
01:45:59,800 --> 01:46:03,679
Speaker 1: that makes sense, is one of the ones who first

1666
01:46:03,760 --> 01:46:09,479
Speaker 1: popularized it. Was Yeah, but there could be there could

1667
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:12,960
Speaker 1: be you know, several other people that say that they

1668
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:15,479
Speaker 1: coined it. I don't know, I mean, I even there's

1669
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 1: even uh an illustration from eight nine four by by

1670
01:46:21,280 --> 01:46:26,919
Speaker 1: Frederick Offer with reporters carrying newspapers labeled humble news, cheap sensation,

1671
01:46:27,040 --> 01:46:29,800
Speaker 1: and fake news. So it's I mean, in terms of

1672
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:31,880
Speaker 1: in terms of just mashing words together. I'm sure it

1673
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:34,600
Speaker 1: has has had a decent history, but definitely Trump is

1674
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:38,840
Speaker 1: the one that like launched it into the zeitgeist. Right right, right,

1675
01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:43,960
Speaker 1: Let's see, Robert, you've been pretty quiet. I know it's

1676
01:46:44,040 --> 01:46:45,920
Speaker 1: pretty early in the morning for you. Do you have

1677
01:46:45,960 --> 01:46:47,800
Speaker 1: any do you have any kind of thoughts to help

1678
01:46:47,920 --> 01:46:50,439
Speaker 1: us kind of generally start closing us out, not not

1679
01:46:50,640 --> 01:46:53,200
Speaker 1: not like super immediately, but generally having that direction. I

1680
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:55,400
Speaker 1: mean you no, not really kind of brought up everything.

1681
01:46:55,760 --> 01:47:02,800
Speaker 1: I would say, all right, all right, it's a yeah,

1682
01:47:03,760 --> 01:47:07,679
Speaker 1: I guess, uh, Mike, what have How is this project

1683
01:47:07,880 --> 01:47:10,840
Speaker 1: of impacted how you approach film and just like how

1684
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:14,200
Speaker 1: you how you use the internet yourself in the past decade?

1685
01:47:16,280 --> 01:47:23,080
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, Well, I I'm fully aware of what we did.

1686
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:26,240
Speaker 1: Every time I'm like looking at something, I'm like, they

1687
01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:28,560
Speaker 1: had done that? Could they have done this? And that,

1688
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:33,560
Speaker 1: you know that sort of thing. Um, I don't know

1689
01:47:33,640 --> 01:47:37,320
Speaker 1: if it's if yeah, I don't I'm not sure how

1690
01:47:37,400 --> 01:47:44,519
Speaker 1: it's how this project specifically impacted me, other than just

1691
01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:48,439
Speaker 1: trying to think through things a bit more carefully, trying

1692
01:47:48,479 --> 01:47:52,760
Speaker 1: to go through things like, um, I mean, like so

1693
01:47:53,400 --> 01:47:57,160
Speaker 1: we we basically came up with this idea of what

1694
01:47:57,360 --> 01:48:00,560
Speaker 1: eventually became troll farms, right like me and like my

1695
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:05,120
Speaker 1: classmates would hey, we even make fake accounts and like

1696
01:48:05,560 --> 01:48:11,200
Speaker 1: talk about the stairwell and um, so, I don't know,

1697
01:48:11,360 --> 01:48:13,800
Speaker 1: like a few years later, people we we learned that

1698
01:48:13,880 --> 01:48:17,879
Speaker 1: people were actually doing this, like to influence like elections

1699
01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:22,479
Speaker 1: around the world, and a lot of the strategy of

1700
01:48:22,680 --> 01:48:27,400
Speaker 1: like the Russian troll forms and stuff, um was to

1701
01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:32,360
Speaker 1: basically create caricature versions right of arguments from whatever side,

1702
01:48:32,439 --> 01:48:36,760
Speaker 1: like you know, whether they might present an argument from

1703
01:48:36,960 --> 01:48:39,120
Speaker 1: like the left or the right, but in like a

1704
01:48:39,240 --> 01:48:43,240
Speaker 1: caricaturized version of it. And um, so what people would

1705
01:48:43,240 --> 01:48:46,240
Speaker 1: see when they see that, they'd see an argument coming

1706
01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:49,000
Speaker 1: from the other side, and they'd ridicule it, like look

1707
01:48:49,040 --> 01:48:53,400
Speaker 1: at these people who just seem crazy espousing this whatever view,

1708
01:48:54,080 --> 01:48:57,559
Speaker 1: you know, or they might say things like, um, like yeah,

1709
01:48:57,680 --> 01:49:00,280
Speaker 1: if you're a Democrat, you want to abort babe bees

1710
01:49:00,320 --> 01:49:02,679
Speaker 1: that like the ninth month or something like that, which

1711
01:49:02,760 --> 01:49:06,920
Speaker 1: no reasonable person actually argued. So what happens is like, um,

1712
01:49:07,560 --> 01:49:10,640
Speaker 1: people talk about how the goal of Russia was to

1713
01:49:10,760 --> 01:49:16,880
Speaker 1: like polarize, you know, um, polarize the political spectrum. I think,

1714
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:21,679
Speaker 1: like the bigger goal and the the goal that we're

1715
01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:26,120
Speaker 1: going to be untangling for many many years. And the more, um,

1716
01:49:27,880 --> 01:49:30,920
Speaker 1: the more difficult problem to deal with was that they

1717
01:49:31,240 --> 01:49:36,880
Speaker 1: oversimple They successfully oversimplified discourse, you know what I'm saying,

1718
01:49:37,360 --> 01:49:41,160
Speaker 1: Like they found a way to like oversimplify the type

1719
01:49:41,200 --> 01:49:44,960
Speaker 1: of discourse we're having because everyone's like arguing with such

1720
01:49:45,120 --> 01:49:49,040
Speaker 1: simplistic I'm not sure if I'm making sense. It's like

1721
01:49:49,320 --> 01:49:52,000
Speaker 1: it's like it's like the term I use is like

1722
01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:56,080
Speaker 1: politics as fandom, right, right, And that's why I think

1723
01:49:56,160 --> 01:49:58,840
Speaker 1: that like intersect not not exactly what you're saying, but

1724
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:01,240
Speaker 1: like in a next with that type of idea of

1725
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:06,280
Speaker 1: like condensing down actual discussions on like what you believe in,

1726
01:50:07,040 --> 01:50:09,120
Speaker 1: um and what politics you want and how you want

1727
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:11,680
Speaker 1: to improve the world into this weird fandom lens of

1728
01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:13,640
Speaker 1: like this team versus this team which we we we

1729
01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:15,479
Speaker 1: we we we we. We've had a degree of that

1730
01:50:15,560 --> 01:50:18,439
Speaker 1: for a long long time. But with the Internet and

1731
01:50:18,520 --> 01:50:21,519
Speaker 1: how how discussions on the Internet are designed to work, right,

1732
01:50:21,560 --> 01:50:24,080
Speaker 1: how algorithms want to boost content, how there's always these

1733
01:50:24,080 --> 01:50:27,080
Speaker 1: short snippets just in mirrors the way people discuss, like

1734
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:30,000
Speaker 1: what Star Wars character is their favorite? It's just that.

1735
01:50:30,240 --> 01:50:35,000
Speaker 1: But for politics, um, so it's it's just this, like

1736
01:50:35,160 --> 01:50:37,800
Speaker 1: what if politics is just this idea of fandom and

1737
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:40,599
Speaker 1: you can debate what fandom is more valid than the other? Right,

1738
01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:43,640
Speaker 1: I like the last Jedi more you like Rise of Skywalker.

1739
01:50:43,920 --> 01:50:46,439
Speaker 1: This means your version of reality is less good than mine.

1740
01:50:46,720 --> 01:50:54,760
Speaker 1: So which is which is? But that it's that same

1741
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:58,560
Speaker 1: idea but for how we like make social programs and

1742
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:01,560
Speaker 1: how we address racism, how we like give food to

1743
01:51:01,640 --> 01:51:04,400
Speaker 1: poor people, and how we do affordable housing, and how

1744
01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:07,360
Speaker 1: we handle the police. So it's that type of idea,

1745
01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:13,560
Speaker 1: which is just the disinformation kind of impacts this in

1746
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:17,439
Speaker 1: part because when you flood the zone with so much

1747
01:51:17,520 --> 01:51:21,360
Speaker 1: conflicting information that people can't really get a handle on

1748
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:24,519
Speaker 1: or easily sort of like when there when when you

1749
01:51:24,840 --> 01:51:28,880
Speaker 1: when you've put that much confusion into the air, um,

1750
01:51:29,160 --> 01:51:31,240
Speaker 1: it makes people more likely to just kind of grasp

1751
01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:34,920
Speaker 1: its sides because everything coming out is way too complicated

1752
01:51:35,000 --> 01:51:37,800
Speaker 1: and messy, and it's it takes too much work what's

1753
01:51:37,800 --> 01:51:41,040
Speaker 1: actually true. So holding to some lubric of well, I

1754
01:51:41,520 --> 01:51:43,840
Speaker 1: believe this, so that means these are the good guys,

1755
01:51:43,920 --> 01:51:46,040
Speaker 1: these are the bad guys, and I don't have to

1756
01:51:46,760 --> 01:51:49,520
Speaker 1: analyze it any deeper than that I can reject information

1757
01:51:49,600 --> 01:51:52,200
Speaker 1: that comes from this group, where I can reject information

1758
01:51:52,280 --> 01:51:57,640
Speaker 1: that says this, because I just category categorically reject you know,

1759
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:01,120
Speaker 1: anything that that fits in with that. Like that's the

1760
01:52:01,200 --> 01:52:05,040
Speaker 1: benefit of disinformation for authoritarians of all stripes. You're seeing

1761
01:52:05,080 --> 01:52:08,600
Speaker 1: in Ukraine right now, where um, you've got all of

1762
01:52:08,680 --> 01:52:12,000
Speaker 1: these different authoritarian powers. You've got Turkey, you've got Russia,

1763
01:52:12,040 --> 01:52:15,800
Speaker 1: you've got um, you know, sucking the United States at

1764
01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:18,200
Speaker 1: least to the extent that like we impact a lot

1765
01:52:18,280 --> 01:52:21,840
Speaker 1: of things internationally. Um, and you've got them all coming

1766
01:52:21,880 --> 01:52:25,360
Speaker 1: down on different sides of this issue and of what's

1767
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:29,320
Speaker 1: happening in Ukraine. And because there's so much disinformation and

1768
01:52:29,439 --> 01:52:32,639
Speaker 1: misinformation about what's going on, people just kind of grasp

1769
01:52:32,720 --> 01:52:37,599
Speaker 1: at whatever side I'm have been more sympathetic to recently,

1770
01:52:37,720 --> 01:52:40,639
Speaker 1: I'm just going to believe whatever they say because it's

1771
01:52:40,760 --> 01:52:44,479
Speaker 1: way too complicated to actually analyze what's going on. Yeah,

1772
01:52:44,520 --> 01:52:46,280
Speaker 1: And this was this was the thing that I mean,

1773
01:52:46,360 --> 01:52:48,720
Speaker 1: this was explicit on the left. I remember this. There

1774
01:52:48,800 --> 01:52:52,639
Speaker 1: was this around um that Sheen. There was a whole

1775
01:52:52,760 --> 01:52:55,320
Speaker 1: thing about how like people people like talking about anti

1776
01:52:55,320 --> 01:52:59,479
Speaker 1: imperialism would would literally say like nuance nuances liberalism. I

1777
01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:02,639
Speaker 1: don't like nuance of liberalism. Don't don't research this, don't

1778
01:53:02,680 --> 01:53:06,080
Speaker 1: think about this because nuances how liberals like you know,

1779
01:53:06,360 --> 01:53:08,519
Speaker 1: spread sort of pro promishing and change proplicanda, Like I

1780
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:10,640
Speaker 1: remember those people like Ember Frost just just straight up

1781
01:53:10,680 --> 01:53:12,960
Speaker 1: said this. And this was a huge and you know,

1782
01:53:13,040 --> 01:53:14,479
Speaker 1: like I I got a lot of shift for this

1783
01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:16,920
Speaker 1: because you know, like I remember when when when the

1784
01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:19,360
Speaker 1: coupon Bolivia happened, Like I I made a giant thread

1785
01:53:19,400 --> 01:53:21,120
Speaker 1: that was trying to that was like, okay, we need

1786
01:53:21,160 --> 01:53:24,280
Speaker 1: to figure out like how specifically the CIA was involved

1787
01:53:24,320 --> 01:53:26,240
Speaker 1: in this, Like okay, so did they plan the whole thing?

1788
01:53:26,479 --> 01:53:28,960
Speaker 1: Was it like were they working with local partners? Wasn't

1789
01:53:28,960 --> 01:53:30,599
Speaker 1: a thing where someone else planned it and they signed

1790
01:53:30,600 --> 01:53:33,120
Speaker 1: off on it? And like to this day people think

1791
01:53:33,160 --> 01:53:35,320
Speaker 1: that I supported the coup because I was like, we

1792
01:53:35,320 --> 01:53:37,280
Speaker 1: should figure out who was who the actors were in

1793
01:53:37,360 --> 01:53:39,720
Speaker 1: the ground, because no one like this, this this, this

1794
01:53:40,000 --> 01:53:43,880
Speaker 1: this became like a like like like a tenant, like

1795
01:53:44,080 --> 01:53:47,120
Speaker 1: like an actual sort of like political tenants of of

1796
01:53:47,200 --> 01:53:49,439
Speaker 1: how a lot of anti impurialism, like in American left

1797
01:53:49,520 --> 01:53:52,639
Speaker 1: worked was you you were not supposed to do nuanced

1798
01:53:52,720 --> 01:53:54,760
Speaker 1: You were not supposed to look at who was like

1799
01:53:54,840 --> 01:53:56,840
Speaker 1: you know if if if you spent too long looking

1800
01:53:56,880 --> 01:53:58,599
Speaker 1: at what was going on in the ground, people would

1801
01:53:58,600 --> 01:54:01,680
Speaker 1: be like you you worked for the CIA, and that

1802
01:54:02,200 --> 01:54:03,920
Speaker 1: you know, I think like we we we've we've finally

1803
01:54:03,960 --> 01:54:06,640
Speaker 1: seen that basically blow up in their faces because you know,

1804
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:08,560
Speaker 1: oh hey, look how many of these people just like

1805
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:12,000
Speaker 1: would up supporting Russia and then spent like three months

1806
01:54:12,040 --> 01:54:14,320
Speaker 1: saying that Russia would never invade Ukraine, that this happens.

1807
01:54:14,840 --> 01:54:18,400
Speaker 1: But it's I don't know, it's it's it's it's extremely

1808
01:54:18,479 --> 01:54:22,200
Speaker 1: depressing how people who otherwise are you know, like in

1809
01:54:22,600 --> 01:54:24,200
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, like I've spent a lot of

1810
01:54:24,280 --> 01:54:28,799
Speaker 1: their time like trying to you know, filter out stuff

1811
01:54:28,840 --> 01:54:31,799
Speaker 1: from the media that's false just go into this because

1812
01:54:32,720 --> 01:54:36,320
Speaker 1: they just do not want to deal with the complexity

1813
01:54:36,320 --> 01:54:41,440
Speaker 1: of reality. Yeah, just easier not to. Again, if there

1814
01:54:41,480 --> 01:54:43,520
Speaker 1: was a simple problem, we wouldn't mean, if there was

1815
01:54:43,520 --> 01:54:47,760
Speaker 1: a simple solution, we wouldn't need to discuss the problem. Yeah. Yeah,

1816
01:54:47,840 --> 01:54:51,480
Speaker 1: So I guess basically, like just to like, um, answer

1817
01:54:51,800 --> 01:54:55,200
Speaker 1: that question about how it I guess at the time,

1818
01:54:55,240 --> 01:54:57,440
Speaker 1: I'd say, like we got an up close look at

1819
01:54:57,800 --> 01:55:00,240
Speaker 1: how things were gonna be, Like you know, with with

1820
01:55:00,600 --> 01:55:04,000
Speaker 1: all these things, we we kind of anticipated the next

1821
01:55:04,080 --> 01:55:09,360
Speaker 1: few years. Um. So yeah, that's basically what happened. Um,

1822
01:55:10,120 --> 01:55:16,080
Speaker 1: sorry to interrupt your clothing, but no, no, no, it's

1823
01:55:16,120 --> 01:55:19,720
Speaker 1: the it's the best note that that we can go. Um, Michael,

1824
01:55:19,840 --> 01:55:22,080
Speaker 1: do you where can people find you online? And if

1825
01:55:22,120 --> 01:55:24,280
Speaker 1: people want to look into some of your other projects,

1826
01:55:25,280 --> 01:55:28,640
Speaker 1: I mean you found me, Like, if they want to

1827
01:55:28,680 --> 01:55:30,600
Speaker 1: find me, they'll find me, right, I don't know, I

1828
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:33,360
Speaker 1: still don't know you got my email, but Garrison is

1829
01:55:33,400 --> 01:55:36,200
Speaker 1: extremely good about this. Tope, not have any people? Are

1830
01:55:36,280 --> 01:55:39,760
Speaker 1: that good? Uh? Yeah, well they can check out the

1831
01:55:39,840 --> 01:55:43,400
Speaker 1: YouTube channel like I'm gonna be posting some new films

1832
01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:47,080
Speaker 1: this year probably, um so my name Michael Lock. Canna

1833
01:55:47,080 --> 01:55:51,280
Speaker 1: allow or just search the issarians there. Well, I guess

1834
01:55:51,320 --> 01:55:55,280
Speaker 1: that's a way. Yeah yeah, I'll add your YouTube channel

1835
01:55:55,400 --> 01:55:58,000
Speaker 1: to to the description. Yeah. I just want to thank

1836
01:55:58,040 --> 01:56:01,000
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on to talk about your

1837
01:56:01,720 --> 01:56:05,600
Speaker 1: your project. Yeah, thanks for having me. All right, Well,

1838
01:56:06,040 --> 01:56:08,960
Speaker 1: that that does it for us today. You can follow

1839
01:56:09,240 --> 01:56:12,919
Speaker 1: us on the internets for some reason, um on Twitter, Instagram,

1840
01:56:12,960 --> 01:56:15,960
Speaker 1: that happened here, pod and cool some media and yeah,

1841
01:56:16,760 --> 01:56:21,240
Speaker 1: go go create a myth that people will believe and

1842
01:56:21,360 --> 01:56:24,600
Speaker 1: travel from out of country to walk over some stairs.

1843
01:56:24,680 --> 01:56:26,400
Speaker 1: Because that sounds like fun. Go to something like that

1844
01:56:27,240 --> 01:56:39,320
Speaker 1: for fun funzies. All right, bye bye, Hey everyone, It's

1845
01:56:39,360 --> 01:56:43,040
Speaker 1: Bobby Brown. You might know me as the makeup artist

1846
01:56:43,080 --> 01:56:45,960
Speaker 1: beauty expert. You might also know me as the founder

1847
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:49,360
Speaker 1: of Jones Road Beauty. But today I'm here with a

1848
01:56:49,520 --> 01:56:53,720
Speaker 1: brand new podcast, The Important Things. On this new podcast,

1849
01:56:53,840 --> 01:56:56,440
Speaker 1: I'll be joined by my co host and dear friend

1850
01:56:56,760 --> 01:57:01,520
Speaker 1: International Best selling author, Attorney and Ted Talk along a

1851
01:57:01,760 --> 01:57:06,120
Speaker 1: Julie Kumar. Together we want to answer the question how

1852
01:57:06,240 --> 01:57:10,000
Speaker 1: can you lead a life of fulfillment? The ongoing pandemic

1853
01:57:10,080 --> 01:57:13,400
Speaker 1: has given us all the opportunity to examine what really

1854
01:57:13,520 --> 01:57:16,480
Speaker 1: matters most to us and what brings us true contentment.

1855
01:57:17,280 --> 01:57:21,400
Speaker 1: Each week through candid conversations with friends, thought leaders, creators

1856
01:57:21,440 --> 01:57:24,400
Speaker 1: and entrepreneurs, Bobby and I are looking for ways we

1857
01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:28,840
Speaker 1: can all learn to live more authentic, gratifying lives. You

1858
01:57:28,960 --> 01:57:32,280
Speaker 1: can look forward to learning from our amazing guests, including

1859
01:57:32,320 --> 01:57:37,480
Speaker 1: the incomparable Gloria Steinum, entrepreneur and designer, Jennifer Fisher, senator

1860
01:57:37,600 --> 01:57:42,400
Speaker 1: Corey Booker, charity founder Christy Turlington Burns, and many many more.

1861
01:57:42,920 --> 01:57:45,600
Speaker 1: So join us every other week as we dig deep

1862
01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:49,080
Speaker 1: into the stuff that really matters on the important things.

1863
01:57:50,040 --> 01:57:52,800
Speaker 1: Listen to the important things on the I Heart radio app,

1864
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:59,040
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What grows

1865
01:57:59,080 --> 01:58:02,560
Speaker 1: in the forest trees, sure know what else? Girls in

1866
01:58:02,640 --> 01:58:06,440
Speaker 1: the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our

1867
01:58:06,520 --> 01:58:09,640
Speaker 1: family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this

1868
01:58:12,240 --> 01:58:16,840
Speaker 1: and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The

1869
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:19,960
Speaker 1: forest is closer than you think, find a forest near

1870
01:58:20,040 --> 01:58:23,240
Speaker 1: you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot Org.

1871
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:26,120
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and

1872
01:58:26,240 --> 01:58:31,200
Speaker 1: the AD Council. M Hi, I'm Elizabeth Dutton and I'm

1873
01:58:31,280 --> 01:58:34,920
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Dutton. Wait sorry, do you want to see your name? No,

1874
01:58:35,000 --> 01:58:37,520
Speaker 1: I'm good, good, go ahead. We're the hosts of Ridiculous Crime.

1875
01:58:37,840 --> 01:58:41,120
Speaker 1: People love true crime, right, the mystery, the intrigue, the

1876
01:58:41,240 --> 01:58:44,040
Speaker 1: human frailty totally. But what a lot of us don't

1877
01:58:44,120 --> 01:58:46,080
Speaker 1: like is the blood and the guts and the mayhem.

1878
01:58:46,240 --> 01:58:48,960
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait, some of us do like the mayhem. Okay,

1879
01:58:49,160 --> 01:58:52,760
Speaker 1: but let's be real, there's nothing funny about murder. Our

1880
01:58:52,840 --> 01:58:56,240
Speaker 1: show gives you stories like the kidnapping of Frank Sinatra Jr.

1881
01:58:56,600 --> 01:58:59,400
Speaker 1: And the Max Headroom signal hijacking. Oh so you mean

1882
01:58:59,560 --> 01:59:03,520
Speaker 1: ridiculous stories like the UK cat Shaver and Pablo Escobar's

1883
01:59:03,560 --> 01:59:06,800
Speaker 1: cocaine hippos. Yeah, stories like the dudes who stole Buzzy,

1884
01:59:06,840 --> 01:59:09,560
Speaker 1: the animatronic whatever he was from Disney World and the

1885
01:59:09,600 --> 01:59:11,560
Speaker 1: woman whose husband tried to kill her but came back

1886
01:59:11,600 --> 01:59:14,360
Speaker 1: from the dead and surprised him at her own funeral. Yeah,

1887
01:59:14,400 --> 01:59:16,680
Speaker 1: that does sound good. You can find this new podcast

1888
01:59:16,920 --> 01:59:20,520
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime all over the place, the I Heart Radio app,

1889
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:23,360
Speaker 1: the Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I

1890
01:59:23,400 --> 01:59:36,120
Speaker 1: don't know how you live ridiculous Crime. It could happen here. Uh,

1891
01:59:36,360 --> 01:59:39,080
Speaker 1: it being a number of things. Uh. This is the

1892
01:59:39,120 --> 01:59:42,240
Speaker 1: podcast about things falling apart and also maybe putting them

1893
01:59:42,280 --> 01:59:45,560
Speaker 1: back together. And assuming there is not a nuclear war

1894
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:47,920
Speaker 1: in the immediate future, you will probably be hearing this

1895
01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:52,160
Speaker 1: episode sometime in early March. I am Robert Evans. My

1896
01:59:52,320 --> 01:59:56,360
Speaker 1: co hosts as always well as often Chris and Garrison,

1897
01:59:56,760 --> 01:59:58,560
Speaker 1: and that's that's my job for the day. Done. I'm

1898
01:59:58,560 --> 02:00:00,520
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna sit back and chill. You guys want

1899
02:00:00,520 --> 02:00:02,560
Speaker 1: to take it from here, Yeah, I'll take it from here.

1900
02:00:02,680 --> 02:00:05,720
Speaker 1: We are doing one of our perennial things fall apart

1901
02:00:05,800 --> 02:00:08,200
Speaker 1: but also we sort of put it back together again episodes.

1902
02:00:08,360 --> 02:00:13,120
Speaker 1: And joining us today is j MC from Strange Matter

1903
02:00:13,240 --> 02:00:17,640
Speaker 1: is a new libertarian, socialist cooperative magazine. J MC, great

1904
02:00:17,640 --> 02:00:21,200
Speaker 1: to have you here. Yeah, this is really great. So

1905
02:00:22,360 --> 02:00:24,320
Speaker 1: I guess we should probably explain what the magazine is,

1906
02:00:25,400 --> 02:00:27,440
Speaker 1: not just in of itself, but also because it's a

1907
02:00:27,440 --> 02:00:31,600
Speaker 1: good lead in into um um into what we're gonna

1908
02:00:31,600 --> 02:00:34,840
Speaker 1: be talking about so we basically there's five of us

1909
02:00:34,920 --> 02:00:37,560
Speaker 1: as co editors and we're all equal worker owners in it.

1910
02:00:38,000 --> 02:00:41,920
Speaker 1: It's a magazine called Strange Matters, and the point of

1911
02:00:42,000 --> 02:00:45,800
Speaker 1: it is to explore radical new ideas, not just in

1912
02:00:46,080 --> 02:00:48,160
Speaker 1: terms of politics and economics, which is going to be

1913
02:00:48,240 --> 02:00:50,400
Speaker 1: kind of half the focus is trying to figure out

1914
02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:53,600
Speaker 1: like you know, libertarian socialists talk a lot about dual power,

1915
02:00:53,720 --> 02:00:55,480
Speaker 1: which I know y'all talk about on the show a

1916
02:00:55,560 --> 02:00:59,560
Speaker 1: lot talk about building independent institutions under the direct democratic

1917
02:00:59,560 --> 02:01:01,920
Speaker 1: control the working class to control real resources and are

1918
02:01:01,960 --> 02:01:04,640
Speaker 1: not the state or capitalist firms. But like we talk

1919
02:01:04,680 --> 02:01:06,080
Speaker 1: a big game, but we actually know how to do

1920
02:01:06,240 --> 02:01:08,040
Speaker 1: that stuff, And do we know how to do stuff

1921
02:01:08,080 --> 02:01:10,560
Speaker 1: like run like you know, a big company as a

1922
02:01:11,440 --> 02:01:13,360
Speaker 1: as a self managed democracy, or do we know how

1923
02:01:13,400 --> 02:01:15,440
Speaker 1: to like run a city as a as a radical

1924
02:01:15,480 --> 02:01:18,000
Speaker 1: democracy like rooted in neighborhood councils or anything like that.

1925
02:01:18,240 --> 02:01:20,560
Speaker 1: The answer kind of is not really. And there's a

1926
02:01:20,640 --> 02:01:23,840
Speaker 1: lot of like, um open questions that we don't know

1927
02:01:24,320 --> 02:01:26,640
Speaker 1: yet the answers to, and that very few people are

1928
02:01:26,640 --> 02:01:30,360
Speaker 1: working on those answers. So Strange Matters is um partly

1929
02:01:30,440 --> 02:01:34,360
Speaker 1: about discovering, uh, those answers, not because we the editors

1930
02:01:34,400 --> 02:01:36,160
Speaker 1: have the answers, but because we need like some kind

1931
02:01:36,160 --> 02:01:38,600
Speaker 1: of space within which we can bring lots of different people,

1932
02:01:38,720 --> 02:01:41,760
Speaker 1: different life experiences together, uh, in order to talk about

1933
02:01:41,760 --> 02:01:44,640
Speaker 1: the stuff and figure it out. And then the other

1934
02:01:44,720 --> 02:01:46,360
Speaker 1: mission of it is to be a kind of general

1935
02:01:46,440 --> 02:01:49,920
Speaker 1: interest literary intellectual magazine doing the kind of journalism and

1936
02:01:50,000 --> 02:01:53,000
Speaker 1: philosophy and poetry and memoir and stuff like that that

1937
02:01:53,320 --> 02:01:58,680
Speaker 1: uh that uh perhaps gets shut out of capitalist society

1938
02:01:58,760 --> 02:02:01,480
Speaker 1: because it's not commercial, older because it's too weird, because

1939
02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:04,720
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, historiographical essay about it's been

1940
02:02:04,760 --> 02:02:06,680
Speaker 1: called doon or something like that, you know. And and

1941
02:02:06,760 --> 02:02:08,600
Speaker 1: we think that there should be a place for that, um,

1942
02:02:08,960 --> 02:02:13,040
Speaker 1: just because it brings delight and meaning into people's lives,

1943
02:02:13,080 --> 02:02:15,720
Speaker 1: and it's what we're fighting for a more democratic society

1944
02:02:15,760 --> 02:02:18,200
Speaker 1: in order to do so. That's basically our vibe UM.

1945
02:02:19,080 --> 02:02:22,000
Speaker 1: And the essaying question is a collective editorial that we uh,

1946
02:02:22,200 --> 02:02:25,720
Speaker 1: that we collectively drafted and edited uh, talking about our

1947
02:02:25,800 --> 02:02:29,360
Speaker 1: political views in particular and the recent history of libertarian

1948
02:02:29,400 --> 02:02:34,280
Speaker 1: socialism UM and then asked for me, I'm I'm a

1949
02:02:34,320 --> 02:02:36,400
Speaker 1: writer who's written for a couple of other places like

1950
02:02:37,280 --> 02:02:40,000
Speaker 1: the point in the Brooklyn rail Um. And I also

1951
02:02:40,240 --> 02:02:43,520
Speaker 1: was involved in the d S as Libertarian Socialist Caucus

1952
02:02:43,840 --> 02:02:51,360
Speaker 1: and also the yeah yeah right, yeah, but a lot

1953
02:02:51,440 --> 02:02:56,080
Speaker 1: of history there, trauma, you know, some some uh yeah,

1954
02:02:56,400 --> 02:02:59,840
Speaker 1: but any who uh and also the Symbiosis Federation UM,

1955
02:03:00,120 --> 02:03:04,280
Speaker 1: which is a federation across Mexico, the US, and Canada

1956
02:03:04,640 --> 02:03:07,160
Speaker 1: that is trying to put together. It's a it's a

1957
02:03:07,160 --> 02:03:10,160
Speaker 1: confederation of local organizations that are trying to do this

1958
02:03:10,240 --> 02:03:13,680
Speaker 1: kind of direct democracy stuff. Yeah. So I guess, well, okay,

1959
02:03:13,720 --> 02:03:17,000
Speaker 1: so the pandemic isn't I guess the perfect jumping in

1960
02:03:17,080 --> 02:03:20,280
Speaker 1: point for this. But I wanna go back and I

1961
02:03:20,280 --> 02:03:22,480
Speaker 1: guess getting into the meat of this piece because I

1962
02:03:22,480 --> 02:03:24,680
Speaker 1: think it's very interesting. I wanted to sort of talk

1963
02:03:24,720 --> 02:03:27,480
Speaker 1: about the origins of like what's called sort of neo

1964
02:03:27,520 --> 02:03:32,920
Speaker 1: anarchism and how it's sort of begin to decay after

1965
02:03:33,920 --> 02:03:37,560
Speaker 1: after the collapse of occupying after well, I guess the

1966
02:03:37,880 --> 02:03:39,960
Speaker 1: sort the sort of kind of revolutionary arc of the

1967
02:03:40,040 --> 02:03:45,600
Speaker 1: two tens, so basically before you do the decline at

1968
02:03:45,640 --> 02:03:47,120
Speaker 1: least is the way that we wrote it. And I

1969
02:03:47,240 --> 02:03:48,880
Speaker 1: kind of think that it's the way that I would

1970
02:03:48,920 --> 02:03:51,160
Speaker 1: tell it Um, you have to kind of do the

1971
02:03:51,320 --> 02:03:57,040
Speaker 1: rise first, right, because like there was this moment from

1972
02:03:57,880 --> 02:04:04,600
Speaker 1: roughly the fall of the Soviets in two roughly like

1973
02:04:05,440 --> 02:04:09,960
Speaker 1: two thousand and even kind of lingering in an afterlife afterwards,

1974
02:04:10,240 --> 02:04:12,520
Speaker 1: where it kind of looked like anarchism was going to

1975
02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:14,520
Speaker 1: take over the world. And that's a bit of a joke.

1976
02:04:14,720 --> 02:04:17,320
Speaker 1: But it's also not a joke because in the context

1977
02:04:17,400 --> 02:04:19,919
Speaker 1: of like the radical left, which is of course obviously

1978
02:04:20,040 --> 02:04:22,840
Speaker 1: a kind of like you know, dissidents seen in any

1979
02:04:22,880 --> 02:04:27,680
Speaker 1: country where it happens to exist. Um, you know, everything

1980
02:04:27,880 --> 02:04:31,560
Speaker 1: receded in terms of the traditional parties because the fall

1981
02:04:31,680 --> 02:04:36,320
Speaker 1: of the Soviet style uh Leninists states uh either through

1982
02:04:36,360 --> 02:04:39,680
Speaker 1: their collapse as in the case of the USSR, or

1983
02:04:39,760 --> 02:04:42,760
Speaker 1: in the case of their transition to a much more

1984
02:04:42,880 --> 02:04:47,240
Speaker 1: like clearly and obviously like state capitalist, uh semi liberalized

1985
02:04:47,880 --> 02:04:53,160
Speaker 1: model like in China, like the you you basically had

1986
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:57,120
Speaker 1: like this total recession, not just in Leninism interestingly, which

1987
02:04:57,320 --> 02:04:59,320
Speaker 1: obviously enough, right, like you know, it's basically a global

1988
02:04:59,360 --> 02:05:02,560
Speaker 1: collapse of anist style of governments, but also in like

1989
02:05:02,840 --> 02:05:06,720
Speaker 1: social democracy. Um, because it's a lot of the I mean,

1990
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:09,680
Speaker 1: it's actually kind of interesting why it's it's unclear why

1991
02:05:09,760 --> 02:05:13,160
Speaker 1: it is. Uh, people have different theories, but they're you know,

1992
02:05:13,280 --> 02:05:16,480
Speaker 1: people often describe it in in um you know Fisher's

1993
02:05:16,680 --> 02:05:21,320
Speaker 1: term the writer Mark Fisher capitalist realism. The attitude in

1994
02:05:21,360 --> 02:05:25,520
Speaker 1: the nineties was that, uh, you know, there's there's only

1995
02:05:25,640 --> 02:05:27,600
Speaker 1: one world that's possible, and it's the best of all

1996
02:05:27,680 --> 02:05:30,480
Speaker 1: possible worlds, and that's the capitalist world, where everybody's gonna

1997
02:05:30,480 --> 02:05:32,720
Speaker 1: have McDonald's in every country, and two countries that have

1998
02:05:32,920 --> 02:05:34,560
Speaker 1: the same McDonald's are never going to go to war,

1999
02:05:34,960 --> 02:05:37,480
Speaker 1: which we kind of found out the hard way this

2000
02:05:37,560 --> 02:05:40,960
Speaker 1: week that that's not really the case. Well, and if

2001
02:05:41,040 --> 02:05:44,200
Speaker 1: people had paid attention more to other parts of the world,

2002
02:05:44,240 --> 02:05:46,160
Speaker 1: they would know that, like, well, there were civil wars

2003
02:05:46,160 --> 02:05:48,040
Speaker 1: in a bunch of countries that had McDonald's. Is it

2004
02:05:48,080 --> 02:05:52,800
Speaker 1: didn't stop people from shooting each other, as as the

2005
02:05:52,920 --> 02:05:55,480
Speaker 1: United States should tell you, people will kill each other

2006
02:05:55,600 --> 02:05:58,400
Speaker 1: whether or not they have access to chicken McNuggets. Yeah,

2007
02:05:58,640 --> 02:05:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, I mean I think like that. That's that's

2008
02:05:59,880 --> 02:06:02,320
Speaker 1: a period that has it's full of the most wrong

2009
02:06:02,440 --> 02:06:05,560
Speaker 1: anyone has ever been, Like you got your Frantis Fukiyama,

2010
02:06:05,680 --> 02:06:09,760
Speaker 1: like the most wrong person ever You've got Yeah, you've

2011
02:06:09,760 --> 02:06:13,280
Speaker 1: you've got a lot of sertif idealogues, you like, have

2012
02:06:13,400 --> 02:06:15,600
Speaker 1: sort of deluded themselves into thinking this stuff is over

2013
02:06:15,840 --> 02:06:18,200
Speaker 1: and yeah, and I think you're right that that that

2014
02:06:18,280 --> 02:06:21,320
Speaker 1: sort of plays into this, you know, into sort of

2015
02:06:21,360 --> 02:06:25,600
Speaker 1: the collapse of of I guess, the party state left,

2016
02:06:25,840 --> 02:06:29,360
Speaker 1: and then the way in which that, you know, the

2017
02:06:29,560 --> 02:06:34,000
Speaker 1: alternative to that I guess becomes new anarchism, and anarchists practice,

2018
02:06:34,040 --> 02:06:36,160
Speaker 1: even if it's not necessarily ideology with all the groups,

2019
02:06:36,320 --> 02:06:38,840
Speaker 1: kind of seeps its way into the rest of the

2020
02:06:38,840 --> 02:06:44,160
Speaker 1: activist scene. Yeah. So basically the story that we tell

2021
02:06:44,400 --> 02:06:47,520
Speaker 1: is that there's some you know, the stuff of East

2022
02:06:47,560 --> 02:06:51,840
Speaker 1: and rebellion in triggers these h It's not just that

2023
02:06:52,040 --> 02:06:53,360
Speaker 1: the stuff of East is are able to create their

2024
02:06:53,360 --> 02:06:56,440
Speaker 1: autonomous territory and chap us, but they it triggers this

2025
02:06:57,000 --> 02:07:00,680
Speaker 1: wave U that UM. We use such term that sometimes

2026
02:07:00,720 --> 02:07:04,320
Speaker 1: it's used in academia called neo anarchism for this UM.

2027
02:07:04,640 --> 02:07:08,000
Speaker 1: You know, there's an anarchist revival in the nineties UM

2028
02:07:08,440 --> 02:07:12,280
Speaker 1: around the world, and it's not just people calling themselves anarchists.

2029
02:07:12,280 --> 02:07:15,800
Speaker 1: It's all these movements that were inspired by the libertarian

2030
02:07:15,960 --> 02:07:21,320
Speaker 1: socialist broadly speaking, um sabathistas UM adopting kind of similar

2031
02:07:21,400 --> 02:07:25,320
Speaker 1: methods in their local contexts in different countries, fighting against

2032
02:07:25,760 --> 02:07:28,320
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of things. Initially it's against like

2033
02:07:28,560 --> 02:07:31,320
Speaker 1: you know, neoliberal trade deals, but it also ends up

2034
02:07:31,320 --> 02:07:33,680
Speaker 1: being against like sweatshops, because that's basically what a lot

2035
02:07:33,720 --> 02:07:36,080
Speaker 1: of outsourcing is is. You know, if if they have

2036
02:07:36,280 --> 02:07:38,840
Speaker 1: unions in this country from a social democratic period, they

2037
02:07:38,920 --> 02:07:41,320
Speaker 1: shut down the factory fire, everybody moved it to someplace

2038
02:07:41,400 --> 02:07:44,000
Speaker 1: where some dictatorship is going to shoot anybody who tries

2039
02:07:44,040 --> 02:07:46,560
Speaker 1: to do a union. Uh, and then that you know

2040
02:07:46,800 --> 02:07:50,920
Speaker 1: that that lowers Uh. Logistics has gotten sophisticated enough by

2041
02:07:50,960 --> 02:07:53,080
Speaker 1: this point that you know, it ends up being cheaper

2042
02:07:53,120 --> 02:07:54,880
Speaker 1: for the company, even though they have to transport goods

2043
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:56,880
Speaker 1: all across the world and do just in time delivering

2044
02:07:56,960 --> 02:08:01,280
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So UM. The a lot of

2045
02:08:01,440 --> 02:08:05,280
Speaker 1: the the the anti globalization movement that sprouted up around

2046
02:08:05,880 --> 02:08:09,920
Speaker 1: the two thousands was like UM, against all these things

2047
02:08:10,120 --> 02:08:13,520
Speaker 1: and usually using the kinds of direct actions, which is

2048
02:08:13,560 --> 02:08:16,080
Speaker 1: when you act kind of independent of the state and

2049
02:08:16,160 --> 02:08:19,640
Speaker 1: not trying to like, you know, convince politician to do something,

2050
02:08:19,760 --> 02:08:23,680
Speaker 1: but taking direct action to get your results, your desired result. UM.

2051
02:08:24,080 --> 02:08:26,400
Speaker 1: You know, and all this kind of stuff uh that

2052
02:08:26,520 --> 02:08:30,520
Speaker 1: we're at using like direct democratic consensus methods. Uh. In

2053
02:08:30,640 --> 02:08:34,040
Speaker 1: the way that they organized stuff, uh, that was that

2054
02:08:34,200 --> 02:08:36,320
Speaker 1: was all basically an artistic And so there was this

2055
02:08:36,440 --> 02:08:40,720
Speaker 1: way in which anarchist methods, anarchist tactics, anarchists like attitudes

2056
02:08:40,760 --> 02:08:44,600
Speaker 1: towards what activism even is, started filtering into all these

2057
02:08:44,680 --> 02:08:46,640
Speaker 1: other movements. And this has been happening a little bit

2058
02:08:46,640 --> 02:08:48,320
Speaker 1: the eighties too. So there was like the anti nuclear

2059
02:08:48,360 --> 02:08:51,280
Speaker 1: movement had a lot of this, the feminist movement had

2060
02:08:51,280 --> 02:08:54,360
Speaker 1: a lot of this. Um there was a whole um

2061
02:08:55,000 --> 02:08:58,720
Speaker 1: stream of single other ecological movements were actually like pioneered

2062
02:08:58,960 --> 02:09:00,880
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways by anarchists in the nineties

2063
02:09:01,280 --> 02:09:05,280
Speaker 1: um so, as well as indigenous movements in places like Mexico, Believia, etcetera.

2064
02:09:05,680 --> 02:09:09,520
Speaker 1: So the this is the kind of like rise of

2065
02:09:09,640 --> 02:09:11,800
Speaker 1: this neo anarchist movie you that we're talking about, which

2066
02:09:11,880 --> 02:09:16,160
Speaker 1: is not just about anarchists, it's about people who act

2067
02:09:16,280 --> 02:09:20,600
Speaker 1: and think like anarchists without necessarily identifying as it. Yeah,

2068
02:09:20,640 --> 02:09:22,640
Speaker 1: I mean that's the kind of thing that I hope

2069
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:24,280
Speaker 1: we can kind of more encourage as well in the

2070
02:09:24,400 --> 02:09:30,000
Speaker 1: next few decades as those typicode ideas can be I

2071
02:09:30,040 --> 02:09:31,800
Speaker 1: want I want to make sure that we can take

2072
02:09:31,880 --> 02:09:34,440
Speaker 1: these ideas and make them very approable for people, even

2073
02:09:34,480 --> 02:09:37,120
Speaker 1: if they don't use the terms that we might use.

2074
02:09:37,720 --> 02:09:42,720
Speaker 1: You can still kind of suggest these types of thoughts.

2075
02:09:42,920 --> 02:09:45,760
Speaker 1: And this suggests these types of kind of lenses and

2076
02:09:45,840 --> 02:09:48,280
Speaker 1: viewpoints as much as we're about to get to how

2077
02:09:48,320 --> 02:09:51,560
Speaker 1: this sort of goes wrong or fails in some sense, Like,

2078
02:09:51,640 --> 02:09:53,840
Speaker 1: I think that was the strength of this movement was

2079
02:09:53,920 --> 02:10:01,040
Speaker 1: that it was it's tactics really easy to spread, and

2080
02:10:01,480 --> 02:10:02,960
Speaker 1: that led to a lot of people adopting me. It

2081
02:10:03,080 --> 02:10:07,360
Speaker 1: led to it sort of becoming this I guess activist

2082
02:10:07,400 --> 02:10:09,840
Speaker 1: consensus that you know, like you used in the consensus process.

2083
02:10:09,920 --> 02:10:13,080
Speaker 1: You you know, you have horzontal organizations, you have you

2084
02:10:13,160 --> 02:10:15,800
Speaker 1: do direct actions, you mobilize people. You don't have these

2085
02:10:15,840 --> 02:10:19,960
Speaker 1: sort of like particle like parties. But that yeah, And

2086
02:10:19,960 --> 02:10:22,040
Speaker 1: I think I think the next part of the story

2087
02:10:22,120 --> 02:10:24,360
Speaker 1: that you want to tell is about I guess how

2088
02:10:24,440 --> 02:10:30,120
Speaker 1: that fell apart and the consequences of that. Basically what

2089
02:10:30,320 --> 02:10:35,080
Speaker 1: ends up happening is that, like there was this moment

2090
02:10:35,720 --> 02:10:39,480
Speaker 1: of our ascent because I would identify myself as being

2091
02:10:40,040 --> 02:10:43,680
Speaker 1: definitely like part of these, uh, the this generalan of you.

2092
02:10:43,800 --> 02:10:45,480
Speaker 1: I mean I came, I hopped to board a lot

2093
02:10:45,560 --> 02:10:47,600
Speaker 1: later with like Occupy Wall Street, but a lot of

2094
02:10:47,680 --> 02:10:50,920
Speaker 1: the kind of explosion of movements that happened around the

2095
02:10:50,920 --> 02:10:53,480
Speaker 1: world in again not always right. It started with the

2096
02:10:53,520 --> 02:10:56,080
Speaker 1: Arab Spring, which started with somebody seeing themselves on fire

2097
02:10:56,120 --> 02:10:58,560
Speaker 1: in Tunisia and like you know, and then that spreads

2098
02:10:58,600 --> 02:11:01,600
Speaker 1: to um a, their countries in the Middle East and um,

2099
02:11:02,240 --> 02:11:04,880
Speaker 1: you know, protest against dictatorships and so on. But it

2100
02:11:05,000 --> 02:11:08,720
Speaker 1: starts getting kind of like transported beyond its initial Middle

2101
02:11:08,760 --> 02:11:10,440
Speaker 1: Eastern context. And what a lot of people don't know

2102
02:11:10,760 --> 02:11:14,880
Speaker 1: is that the uh, the Occupy Wall Street movement in

2103
02:11:15,440 --> 02:11:19,000
Speaker 1: North America, uh, and like other movements that you know,

2104
02:11:19,080 --> 02:11:21,160
Speaker 1: some of them were called occupy some of them, I'm

2105
02:11:21,200 --> 02:11:23,240
Speaker 1: one of them was Maidan in Ukraine as a matter

2106
02:11:23,240 --> 02:11:26,320
Speaker 1: of fact, um, and other like you know, the the

2107
02:11:26,440 --> 02:11:31,160
Speaker 1: Hong Kong, the the the umbrella movements, yeah, the and

2108
02:11:31,280 --> 02:11:33,800
Speaker 1: all these kind of movements that that proceeded from after

2109
02:11:35,120 --> 02:11:38,200
Speaker 1: a lot of them were basically in a single kind

2110
02:11:38,240 --> 02:11:42,280
Speaker 1: of wave, a protracted wave of copycat movements, uh that

2111
02:11:42,400 --> 02:11:44,520
Speaker 1: we're trying to adopt the same kind of tactics of

2112
02:11:44,600 --> 02:11:48,600
Speaker 1: like occupying public squares, uh, declaring them basically autonomous, and

2113
02:11:48,840 --> 02:11:51,320
Speaker 1: doing like direct democracy in those squares, modeling the kind

2114
02:11:51,320 --> 02:11:54,160
Speaker 1: of society that they that people wanted to create. Um,

2115
02:11:55,160 --> 02:11:57,040
Speaker 1: you know, in this moment where it seemed like you

2116
02:11:57,120 --> 02:12:02,600
Speaker 1: could have this direct democratic uh sorts of movements the

2117
02:12:03,280 --> 02:12:05,480
Speaker 1: end in the US, there's like a direct line of

2118
02:12:05,520 --> 02:12:08,280
Speaker 1: succession from like occupy Wall Street through to like Black

2119
02:12:08,320 --> 02:12:12,320
Speaker 1: Lives Matter through to like the anti pipeline Indigenous protests.

2120
02:12:12,320 --> 02:12:15,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot of like shared movement experience, a lot

2121
02:12:15,160 --> 02:12:17,320
Speaker 1: of the same people showing up to it or teaching

2122
02:12:17,400 --> 02:12:20,680
Speaker 1: the next generation UM in those movements. And I think

2123
02:12:20,720 --> 02:12:23,680
Speaker 1: this is something I mean, uh, it's difficult to find

2124
02:12:23,760 --> 02:12:26,080
Speaker 1: like sources on this, but I mean, y'all are involved

2125
02:12:26,120 --> 02:12:28,120
Speaker 1: in social movements. I think that that's like a rough

2126
02:12:28,720 --> 02:12:32,120
Speaker 1: that's roughly a description of of what's happened, right unless

2127
02:12:32,240 --> 02:12:36,720
Speaker 1: unless we're crazy. Yeah, I think you know what I think,

2128
02:12:38,680 --> 02:12:40,240
Speaker 1: I guess what you call the last wave that is

2129
02:12:40,280 --> 02:12:45,520
Speaker 1: occupied ice in Yeah. Yeah, you know, like I remember,

2130
02:12:45,560 --> 02:12:47,360
Speaker 1: like that was a sort of mix of I guess

2131
02:12:48,240 --> 02:12:50,640
Speaker 1: two crowds. One is you know, I mean, like I

2132
02:12:50,920 --> 02:12:53,000
Speaker 1: I remember it was a bunch of you know, people

2133
02:12:53,000 --> 02:12:55,360
Speaker 1: who'd been in occupy and then also it was a

2134
02:12:55,400 --> 02:12:58,840
Speaker 1: lot of people who radicalized essentially about Trump. Yeah, there

2135
02:12:58,920 --> 02:13:01,960
Speaker 1: was there was a pretty big new way of people, yeah,

2136
02:13:02,000 --> 02:13:05,280
Speaker 1: around around til sixteen and that you know, And I

2137
02:13:05,600 --> 02:13:07,960
Speaker 1: guess the other thing that that that's going on through

2138
02:13:08,040 --> 02:13:14,720
Speaker 1: this period is the the the ascension of consension of

2139
02:13:14,760 --> 02:13:18,440
Speaker 1: the right and the return also not just of you know,

2140
02:13:18,520 --> 02:13:21,240
Speaker 1: not just a sort of the fascist right, but of

2141
02:13:21,600 --> 02:13:26,440
Speaker 1: Leninism and social democracy as well. Um. Lapped around like

2142
02:13:26,600 --> 02:13:28,960
Speaker 1: when Bernie's Hands was getting more popular. Yeah, yeah, and

2143
02:13:29,160 --> 02:13:30,600
Speaker 1: I think I think I think there's there's you know,

2144
02:13:30,680 --> 02:13:32,280
Speaker 1: there's a couple of there's like two threats here. There

2145
02:13:32,320 --> 02:13:35,839
Speaker 1: there's the sort of Bernie Sanders thread, and then there's

2146
02:13:36,400 --> 02:13:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, the the rise of the rise of the tankies,

2147
02:13:38,720 --> 02:13:41,320
Speaker 1: which has to do with Syria and has to do

2148
02:13:41,440 --> 02:13:45,600
Speaker 1: with sort of this backlash against the Just and eleven

2149
02:13:45,640 --> 02:13:48,440
Speaker 1: revolutions that you know, like some some of that backlash

2150
02:13:48,480 --> 02:13:51,920
Speaker 1: turns into like just you know, like air to one's

2151
02:13:52,000 --> 02:13:56,000
Speaker 1: like hard right. I mean there's never like not a

2152
02:13:56,120 --> 02:13:58,040
Speaker 1: right wing, but like air to wants turn into just

2153
02:13:58,080 --> 02:14:05,120
Speaker 1: like fire bombing cities and um, and the living barrel bombing,

2154
02:14:05,280 --> 02:14:09,760
Speaker 1: you know, peaceful protests stuff. Um can overthrow governments if

2155
02:14:10,280 --> 02:14:13,440
Speaker 1: the government is not willing to bomb and shoot people

2156
02:14:14,320 --> 02:14:16,800
Speaker 1: who gather on mass in the central square because they're

2157
02:14:16,920 --> 02:14:19,280
Speaker 1: afraid of what the world's response would be if they

2158
02:14:19,280 --> 02:14:22,120
Speaker 1: did start doing that. But you know, when Bashar Alasad

2159
02:14:22,160 --> 02:14:25,120
Speaker 1: did that in Syria against the democratic opposition movements, Um,

2160
02:14:26,000 --> 02:14:29,720
Speaker 1: you know, that basically sent the signal nothing, I mean

2161
02:14:29,800 --> 02:14:32,320
Speaker 1: nothing happened to us side, right, So that basically sent

2162
02:14:32,400 --> 02:14:36,800
Speaker 1: the signal that like, oh he has but yeah, yeah,

2163
02:14:37,160 --> 02:14:40,480
Speaker 1: right right, yeah, like like you can you can just

2164
02:14:40,920 --> 02:14:43,920
Speaker 1: shoot people and bomb them and like it. And that

2165
02:14:44,480 --> 02:14:48,200
Speaker 1: basically defanged the kind of central tactic that a lot

2166
02:14:48,240 --> 02:14:49,760
Speaker 1: of these movements were trying to do, which is to

2167
02:14:49,840 --> 02:14:53,400
Speaker 1: have like large numbers of people do nonviolent civil disobedience

2168
02:14:53,440 --> 02:14:56,720
Speaker 1: and then through those like direct actions, cultivate this culture

2169
02:14:56,760 --> 02:15:00,200
Speaker 1: of like direct democracy in the hopes that, um, you know,

2170
02:15:00,240 --> 02:15:02,240
Speaker 1: the assemblies that are created in that space could in

2171
02:15:02,360 --> 02:15:04,640
Speaker 1: some way become the germ of the organs that could

2172
02:15:04,680 --> 02:15:06,480
Speaker 1: run society, or at least that's like when it's taken

2173
02:15:06,520 --> 02:15:09,280
Speaker 1: to its logical conclusion. Because usually people who are involved

2174
02:15:09,320 --> 02:15:10,960
Speaker 1: in this, they get involved in it. They think the

2175
02:15:11,000 --> 02:15:14,160
Speaker 1: assembly stuff is really cool, they start learning more about it.

2176
02:15:14,320 --> 02:15:17,040
Speaker 1: They get radicalized by being in the assembly because like

2177
02:15:17,080 --> 02:15:19,480
Speaker 1: when you're in a direct democratic assembling, you're actually making

2178
02:15:19,600 --> 02:15:21,880
Speaker 1: the decisions like together, and then you come to an

2179
02:15:21,920 --> 02:15:24,640
Speaker 1: agreement and you execute the decision. You start asking yourself

2180
02:15:24,680 --> 02:15:28,400
Speaker 1: like why can't we do everything like this? Um? And

2181
02:15:28,640 --> 02:15:31,640
Speaker 1: then um, you know all that that's what directs a

2182
02:15:31,720 --> 02:15:35,160
Speaker 1: lot of people in this kind of anarchistic direction. But yeah,

2183
02:15:35,280 --> 02:15:37,240
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why these movements starts to decline

2184
02:15:37,360 --> 02:15:41,920
Speaker 1: is because they get smashed, um the But I think

2185
02:15:41,960 --> 02:15:46,760
Speaker 1: that there's always this other thing going on, which and

2186
02:15:46,800 --> 02:15:49,920
Speaker 1: I wonder how y'all felt about this, like reading it,

2187
02:15:50,200 --> 02:15:56,080
Speaker 1: like you know, there's there was this kind of both

2188
02:15:56,240 --> 02:15:59,520
Speaker 1: like an external critique at first from people like you know,

2189
02:15:59,600 --> 02:16:02,320
Speaker 1: Bascar Syncer of Jacobin and things like that, but then

2190
02:16:02,400 --> 02:16:06,160
Speaker 1: also like this, increasingly over the years in the last

2191
02:16:06,640 --> 02:16:11,800
Speaker 1: half of the internal critiques of anarchism coming from anarchists themselves.

2192
02:16:12,160 --> 02:16:15,080
Speaker 1: Are people in this general kind of milieu libertarian socialism

2193
02:16:15,840 --> 02:16:21,880
Speaker 1: talking about how like anarchists didn't have solutions to the

2194
02:16:21,960 --> 02:16:24,920
Speaker 1: most pressing crises in the twenty century, Like if you

2195
02:16:25,240 --> 02:16:27,360
Speaker 1: like if you guys had to say, I know it's

2196
02:16:27,360 --> 02:16:29,280
Speaker 1: like kind of pretentious, but like, what is the most

2197
02:16:29,360 --> 02:16:31,640
Speaker 1: pressing crisis of the century? What are like the top

2198
02:16:31,720 --> 02:16:33,880
Speaker 1: three just off the top of your heads without thinking?

2199
02:16:34,080 --> 02:16:35,680
Speaker 1: What would you list if you have to list three

2200
02:16:35,840 --> 02:16:40,600
Speaker 1: two or three separate things? Climate change, creeping authoritarianism, and

2201
02:16:41,120 --> 02:16:46,000
Speaker 1: rampant disinformation about basic facts of reality. Sweet? Okay, so

2202
02:16:46,080 --> 02:16:50,879
Speaker 1: let's tackle each one of those, right, Like, what's what's

2203
02:16:51,080 --> 02:16:53,760
Speaker 1: an anarchist got to say about climate change? Well, okay,

2204
02:16:53,879 --> 02:16:58,200
Speaker 1: disrupt the pipelines, like you know, do uh, Like, you

2205
02:16:58,240 --> 02:17:00,240
Speaker 1: can't have infinite growth on a finite plan it, so

2206
02:17:00,320 --> 02:17:02,080
Speaker 1: you have to have like, you know, we we have

2207
02:17:02,160 --> 02:17:03,920
Speaker 1: all the slogans, right, I mean we've all heard them

2208
02:17:03,959 --> 02:17:06,280
Speaker 1: like a million times. Yeah, you have the diagnoses of

2209
02:17:06,360 --> 02:17:09,680
Speaker 1: the problem. But yeah, yeah, but then like, okay, so

2210
02:17:09,879 --> 02:17:13,440
Speaker 1: how are we going to like you know, I guess

2211
02:17:13,440 --> 02:17:15,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna build some co ops and then the co

2212
02:17:16,000 --> 02:17:19,520
Speaker 1: ops are gonna democratized production and then we can do

2213
02:17:19,680 --> 02:17:24,480
Speaker 1: d growth somehow, but like also disrupting existing production. But

2214
02:17:24,560 --> 02:17:27,000
Speaker 1: there's like a missing step here, right, because like you know,

2215
02:17:27,120 --> 02:17:29,039
Speaker 1: the reason why we have all this production in certain

2216
02:17:29,080 --> 02:17:31,680
Speaker 1: ways because the entire economy depends on it's been set

2217
02:17:31,760 --> 02:17:35,720
Speaker 1: up that way. Uh So you implied in the idea

2218
02:17:35,760 --> 02:17:37,200
Speaker 1: that we're going to do de growth somehow, is that

2219
02:17:37,280 --> 02:17:39,920
Speaker 1: we need some way of constructing a different economy. And

2220
02:17:40,000 --> 02:17:42,200
Speaker 1: how do you construct a different economy right through some

2221
02:17:42,360 --> 02:17:45,320
Speaker 1: kind of planning? So really the question is like how

2222
02:17:45,360 --> 02:17:49,160
Speaker 1: do you do economic planning? Uh? Second one, um, I

2223
02:17:49,240 --> 02:17:51,800
Speaker 1: goin to skip creeping authoritarianism for now because that's actually

2224
02:17:51,920 --> 02:17:53,879
Speaker 1: like feeding into the more the ending of the essay.

2225
02:17:53,959 --> 02:17:57,480
Speaker 1: But the but the other one, right, disinformation? Another great question, right,

2226
02:17:57,840 --> 02:18:02,279
Speaker 1: like what do you do with social media? Like? Okay, again,

2227
02:18:02,480 --> 02:18:05,480
Speaker 1: anarchists talked in general a lot about like, okay, we're

2228
02:18:05,520 --> 02:18:09,240
Speaker 1: going to democratize all the companies because we're democratizing everything.

2229
02:18:09,280 --> 02:18:12,120
Speaker 1: We're democratizing neighborhoods or democratizing cities. So it's kind of

2230
02:18:12,200 --> 02:18:15,879
Speaker 1: the same thing, turning everything into like a radical direct democracy. Okay,

2231
02:18:17,040 --> 02:18:20,280
Speaker 1: But if we're going to have social media, first of all,

2232
02:18:20,320 --> 02:18:22,640
Speaker 1: should we like, was it a mistake to invent a

2233
02:18:22,760 --> 02:18:26,520
Speaker 1: centralized system instead of the more decentralized internet that created

2234
02:18:26,600 --> 02:18:29,040
Speaker 1: that existed before social media? Right, that's kind of an

2235
02:18:29,200 --> 02:18:32,880
Speaker 1: interesting question. But then assuming that we do how do

2236
02:18:33,000 --> 02:18:35,600
Speaker 1: we restructure it? Not just in terms of how it's managed,

2237
02:18:35,640 --> 02:18:38,000
Speaker 1: but like, okay, we have the democracy of Facebook or whatever,

2238
02:18:38,320 --> 02:18:41,120
Speaker 1: and let's say that we're the workers at Facebook. What

2239
02:18:41,200 --> 02:18:43,840
Speaker 1: do we do, like, how do we structure it so

2240
02:18:43,959 --> 02:18:48,440
Speaker 1: that it's not a giant misinformation engine? Right? Like once,

2241
02:18:48,600 --> 02:18:51,280
Speaker 1: once you actually have like the responsibility and the power

2242
02:18:51,320 --> 02:18:52,959
Speaker 1: of being in the saddle, which is what we spend

2243
02:18:53,000 --> 02:18:54,680
Speaker 1: so much of our time kind of just trying to do.

2244
02:18:55,240 --> 02:18:57,000
Speaker 1: You have to actually make decisions about what to do.

2245
02:18:57,480 --> 02:19:00,160
Speaker 1: And honestly, there aren't that many. I mean, do you

2246
02:19:00,280 --> 02:19:02,400
Speaker 1: what do you do with with the within with the

2247
02:19:02,480 --> 02:19:05,640
Speaker 1: utility like that? Like, for example, who ought to be

2248
02:19:05,760 --> 02:19:07,680
Speaker 1: in control of the utility? Like that? Is it really

2249
02:19:07,800 --> 02:19:10,920
Speaker 1: just the workers of Facebook? Aren't all the people who

2250
02:19:10,959 --> 02:19:12,880
Speaker 1: are users of it? Don't they have a right to

2251
02:19:13,000 --> 02:19:16,520
Speaker 1: be making decisions about it too? And is it just

2252
02:19:16,600 --> 02:19:19,640
Speaker 1: an American institution just because it's an American LLC? Or

2253
02:19:19,760 --> 02:19:21,840
Speaker 1: is it like a global institution because everybody on the

2254
02:19:21,879 --> 02:19:26,720
Speaker 1: planets on it? Um is there? You know? Are o

2255
02:19:26,800 --> 02:19:29,080
Speaker 1: there ways that it could be reconfigured, like fundamentally in

2256
02:19:29,240 --> 02:19:32,000
Speaker 1: terms of how users use it that would change the

2257
02:19:32,080 --> 02:19:35,119
Speaker 1: experience in some way to actually make it, uh, make

2258
02:19:35,200 --> 02:19:37,480
Speaker 1: you less liable to misinformation. But on the other hand,

2259
02:19:37,480 --> 02:19:40,360
Speaker 1: if you try to manipulate people in order to um,

2260
02:19:40,920 --> 02:19:44,080
Speaker 1: you know, not see something that's going to be misinformation,

2261
02:19:44,400 --> 02:19:49,720
Speaker 1: isn't that well, you know, like censorship or or or

2262
02:19:49,840 --> 02:19:52,560
Speaker 1: some other thing that we generally would oppose, right, like

2263
02:19:53,080 --> 02:19:57,160
Speaker 1: the tool of centralized social control. So they like, these

2264
02:19:57,200 --> 02:20:00,840
Speaker 1: are really deep questions, and again this is generally a

2265
02:20:00,959 --> 02:20:03,640
Speaker 1: kind of silence, and of course, you know in that case,

2266
02:20:03,720 --> 02:20:06,400
Speaker 1: there's silence from the social democrats too, and there's silence

2267
02:20:06,440 --> 02:20:08,280
Speaker 1: from the Leninists. I mean, well, the Lenist just kind

2268
02:20:08,280 --> 02:20:11,120
Speaker 1: of fantasized about turning Facebook into the tool of the

2269
02:20:11,240 --> 02:20:14,800
Speaker 1: central party state uses in order to crush dissent forever

2270
02:20:14,879 --> 02:20:17,240
Speaker 1: or whatever. But you know, social democrats are like list

2271
02:20:17,360 --> 02:20:22,199
Speaker 1: nationalized Facebook, and it's like, you know, yeah, sure we could,

2272
02:20:22,240 --> 02:20:24,040
Speaker 1: we could do that, and then you know the n

2273
02:20:24,080 --> 02:20:27,600
Speaker 1: s A owns on Facebook. I'm sure that that's a

2274
02:20:27,959 --> 02:20:30,920
Speaker 1: that's a better scenario. Yeah, I mean I tend to

2275
02:20:31,000 --> 02:20:34,680
Speaker 1: think somewhat differently about what it means to have an

2276
02:20:34,680 --> 02:20:37,320
Speaker 1: anarchist solution to those problems, Like, for example, I don't

2277
02:20:37,840 --> 02:20:40,840
Speaker 1: I don't see anarchists or social democrats or leninists having

2278
02:20:40,879 --> 02:20:45,640
Speaker 1: any kind of stopping climate change solution um, Because I don't.

2279
02:20:45,720 --> 02:20:51,560
Speaker 1: I don't realistically see the organizing potential UM capable of

2280
02:20:51,680 --> 02:20:55,600
Speaker 1: actually stopping what's going on in any kind of reasonable

2281
02:20:55,640 --> 02:20:57,800
Speaker 1: time frame. And I certainly don't think that the existing

2282
02:20:58,400 --> 02:21:01,879
Speaker 1: you know, neoliberal structure are the authoritarian structures that exist

2283
02:21:01,959 --> 02:21:04,760
Speaker 1: in you know, other countries or in this country, are

2284
02:21:04,800 --> 02:21:07,080
Speaker 1: going to stop it either. So when I think about

2285
02:21:07,280 --> 02:21:10,000
Speaker 1: solutions to climate change from an anarchist perspective, I think

2286
02:21:10,040 --> 02:21:14,640
Speaker 1: about how can anarchist organizing help people deal with the

2287
02:21:14,760 --> 02:21:18,520
Speaker 1: consequences of climate change? And I see I tend to

2288
02:21:18,720 --> 02:21:23,320
Speaker 1: see the potential for actually like mitigating climate change coming

2289
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:28,280
Speaker 1: more from there's as the consequences of this become more

2290
02:21:28,400 --> 02:21:31,640
Speaker 1: dire to people. If anarchists are better, are good at

2291
02:21:31,879 --> 02:21:35,280
Speaker 1: providing relief and helping people and organizing through that, and

2292
02:21:35,400 --> 02:21:38,240
Speaker 1: eventually there's some potential to actually get people organized to

2293
02:21:38,280 --> 02:21:42,400
Speaker 1: stop the causes of the problem. But UM, I just don't.

2294
02:21:43,240 --> 02:21:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm not an optimist of about our ability to stop

2295
02:21:46,240 --> 02:21:50,000
Speaker 1: the worst of it at this point, UM, especially not

2296
02:21:50,080 --> 02:21:52,280
Speaker 1: after the most recent IPCC report. And I guess I'm

2297
02:21:52,320 --> 02:21:56,120
Speaker 1: kind of in the same boat when it comes to disinformation. UM.

2298
02:21:56,920 --> 02:21:59,920
Speaker 1: I and this is not just like anarchists. I feel

2299
02:22:00,040 --> 02:22:03,800
Speaker 1: like lack, as you've stated, at a like a good

2300
02:22:03,840 --> 02:22:05,480
Speaker 1: idea about like what do we do with Facebook, what

2301
02:22:05,640 --> 02:22:06,960
Speaker 1: we do with you do? What do we do with

2302
02:22:07,520 --> 02:22:09,200
Speaker 1: the way all of these things are set up in

2303
02:22:09,240 --> 02:22:12,920
Speaker 1: the harms that they do at scale? Um, Nobody, and

2304
02:22:13,080 --> 02:22:16,640
Speaker 1: I include the people currently in charge, has any real

2305
02:22:16,760 --> 02:22:19,480
Speaker 1: good ideas for that because they haven't. Like I've been

2306
02:22:19,520 --> 02:22:21,640
Speaker 1: working in this space for a very long time, I've

2307
02:22:21,680 --> 02:22:25,240
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time talking with and debating

2308
02:22:25,320 --> 02:22:27,640
Speaker 1: with a lot of the folks who are leading minds

2309
02:22:27,680 --> 02:22:31,240
Speaker 1: kind of in the fight against disinformation, and I just

2310
02:22:31,360 --> 02:22:35,520
Speaker 1: don't feel like there's any sort of solution that is

2311
02:22:35,600 --> 02:22:38,440
Speaker 1: an immediate term solution because so many the problem is

2312
02:22:38,480 --> 02:22:40,959
Speaker 1: so advanced as it is so as I guess that's

2313
02:22:41,000 --> 02:22:44,480
Speaker 1: kind of like where I land on a lot of

2314
02:22:44,560 --> 02:22:48,760
Speaker 1: this stuff is we certainly need to be thinking about solutions,

2315
02:22:48,879 --> 02:22:52,240
Speaker 1: but I kind of like, I think it's less likely

2316
02:22:52,320 --> 02:22:54,480
Speaker 1: that there's going to be like you were you were saying,

2317
02:22:55,200 --> 02:22:57,160
Speaker 1: the kind of debate is between is there some way

2318
02:22:57,240 --> 02:23:00,080
Speaker 1: of like reforming or fixing making Facebook more democratic or

2319
02:23:00,120 --> 02:23:01,480
Speaker 1: is it just we need to decide that maybe we

2320
02:23:01,560 --> 02:23:03,760
Speaker 1: don't have some of this stuff. And I tend to

2321
02:23:03,879 --> 02:23:06,800
Speaker 1: land towards that that, like, well, I think the solution

2322
02:23:06,920 --> 02:23:09,760
Speaker 1: is going to be maybe maybe Facebook's a bad idea,

2323
02:23:09,920 --> 02:23:13,080
Speaker 1: Maybe we should maybe we shouldn't have. There's aspects of

2324
02:23:13,160 --> 02:23:15,920
Speaker 1: it that are necessary, obviously, and I think aspects of

2325
02:23:16,640 --> 02:23:19,920
Speaker 1: things like Telegram and Twitter that are useful, But um,

2326
02:23:21,160 --> 02:23:25,800
Speaker 1: I I think the they're also fundamentally tied to the

2327
02:23:25,920 --> 02:23:28,960
Speaker 1: algorithms that drive them, which is also what drives so

2328
02:23:29,120 --> 02:23:31,360
Speaker 1: much of the toxic aspects that I think if you're

2329
02:23:31,400 --> 02:23:36,280
Speaker 1: divorcing the medium from the algorithm, you're talking about something

2330
02:23:36,360 --> 02:23:39,600
Speaker 1: that is very different and no longer than media. It's

2331
02:23:39,720 --> 02:23:42,600
Speaker 1: no longer than media. It's it's so radically different that

2332
02:23:42,680 --> 02:23:44,720
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's not even useful to compare them.

2333
02:23:45,040 --> 02:23:48,160
Speaker 1: It's like it's like comparing Discord to Facebook. It's like

2334
02:23:48,160 --> 02:23:51,600
Speaker 1: they're not they don't operate the same way. That's the Yeah,

2335
02:23:51,680 --> 02:23:55,240
Speaker 1: that's exactly kind of where I where I tend to

2336
02:23:55,320 --> 02:23:58,520
Speaker 1: be on on that. And I know that's not like

2337
02:23:59,840 --> 02:24:04,400
Speaker 1: I I to the extent that like, uh, that's pessimistic.

2338
02:24:04,520 --> 02:24:07,280
Speaker 1: I guess I am kind of pessimistic about anarchisms ability

2339
02:24:07,400 --> 02:24:11,080
Speaker 1: to stop the worst of things that's happening. Where I

2340
02:24:11,240 --> 02:24:15,040
Speaker 1: kind of look at myself as an optimistic anarchist is

2341
02:24:15,440 --> 02:24:18,600
Speaker 1: in the I believe anarchism offers solutions when these things

2342
02:24:18,720 --> 02:24:20,480
Speaker 1: go as badly as they're going to do, in a

2343
02:24:20,560 --> 02:24:23,520
Speaker 1: way that you know, the present systems or you know,

2344
02:24:24,000 --> 02:24:28,560
Speaker 1: more authoritarian systems that people propose can't solve the worst

2345
02:24:28,600 --> 02:24:31,640
Speaker 1: consequences of these problems as as well. That's that's kind

2346
02:24:31,680 --> 02:24:35,240
Speaker 1: of where I feel like it is can feel a

2347
02:24:35,240 --> 02:24:38,640
Speaker 1: lot simpler to default to, like the dual power framework

2348
02:24:39,360 --> 02:24:41,680
Speaker 1: of a lot of these things, because otherwise the problems

2349
02:24:41,680 --> 02:24:43,960
Speaker 1: are so complex that you cannot approach them from from

2350
02:24:44,080 --> 02:24:46,880
Speaker 1: from every angle, because you really do need to simplify

2351
02:24:46,959 --> 02:24:49,520
Speaker 1: and condense them and collapse them into something that is

2352
02:24:49,560 --> 02:24:52,040
Speaker 1: more simplified, which often results in like a dual power

2353
02:24:52,160 --> 02:24:55,879
Speaker 1: kind of framework for what you actually start doing. Yeah,

2354
02:24:56,160 --> 02:24:58,400
Speaker 1: and I think you have to. I think if you're

2355
02:24:59,240 --> 02:25:02,520
Speaker 1: an insurrection anist, if you're a revolutionary, whether you're an

2356
02:25:02,520 --> 02:25:06,680
Speaker 1: anarchist or you know, a Leninist or whatever, you have

2357
02:25:06,800 --> 02:25:09,800
Speaker 1: to be looking at what's actually happening in Ukraine right

2358
02:25:09,840 --> 02:25:14,160
Speaker 1: now and recognize that. All right, well, to what extent

2359
02:25:14,240 --> 02:25:15,879
Speaker 1: do you think you're going to be able to organize

2360
02:25:15,920 --> 02:25:18,880
Speaker 1: people in such a way that allows them to deal

2361
02:25:18,959 --> 02:25:22,320
Speaker 1: with thermobaric weapons? You know? In what way are you

2362
02:25:22,400 --> 02:25:25,800
Speaker 1: going to organize people that allows them to effectively resist

2363
02:25:25,879 --> 02:25:29,760
Speaker 1: cluster musician munitions? Um? And I think that when you

2364
02:25:29,879 --> 02:25:31,520
Speaker 1: kind of look at it that way, which is what

2365
02:25:31,640 --> 02:25:34,960
Speaker 1: it would take to overthrow any of the large hegemonic

2366
02:25:35,000 --> 02:25:38,240
Speaker 1: powers in the world right now, a much more realistic

2367
02:25:38,959 --> 02:25:41,800
Speaker 1: set of solutions is, all right, well, let's work on

2368
02:25:42,240 --> 02:25:47,240
Speaker 1: building power by building organizations and communities that are capable

2369
02:25:47,320 --> 02:25:50,400
Speaker 1: of taking care of themselves in the holes that these

2370
02:25:50,480 --> 02:25:54,360
Speaker 1: powers are increasingly going to be experiencing because because they

2371
02:25:54,440 --> 02:25:57,320
Speaker 1: too are crumbling. And that's much smarter than being like,

2372
02:25:57,400 --> 02:25:59,480
Speaker 1: all right, well, I'm gonna try to get a bunch

2373
02:25:59,520 --> 02:26:01,920
Speaker 1: of my friends with rifles and and arm up a

2374
02:26:02,000 --> 02:26:04,760
Speaker 1: couple of drones and and go up against you know,

2375
02:26:04,879 --> 02:26:07,520
Speaker 1: people who have access to m l r s, you know,

2376
02:26:07,640 --> 02:26:11,440
Speaker 1: weapons systems and whatnot. Yeah. No, I think that that's

2377
02:26:11,480 --> 02:26:15,400
Speaker 1: a really great point. Um. I. The way that I

2378
02:26:15,440 --> 02:26:19,680
Speaker 1: would think about it is the starting with the big

2379
02:26:19,760 --> 02:26:22,480
Speaker 1: picture problems is a bit misleading because, as you said,

2380
02:26:22,959 --> 02:26:25,960
Speaker 1: like nobody, it's quite like that nobody has solutions to

2381
02:26:26,000 --> 02:26:32,000
Speaker 1: these problems, certainly the social Democrats. Yeah, you know, and

2382
02:26:32,320 --> 02:26:33,879
Speaker 1: I say this as somebody who's like half a social

2383
02:26:33,920 --> 02:26:36,240
Speaker 1: Democrat by temperament. Um, it would be really nice if

2384
02:26:36,280 --> 02:26:38,080
Speaker 1: we like did it a little social democratic government and

2385
02:26:38,120 --> 02:26:40,959
Speaker 1: they swooped in and you know, did like new deal stuff.

2386
02:26:41,040 --> 02:26:42,960
Speaker 1: I like new deal stuff. I like w p A

2387
02:26:42,959 --> 02:26:45,879
Speaker 1: stuff as much as the next. Uh. You know, um

2388
02:26:46,640 --> 02:26:51,760
Speaker 1: person who likes arts programs and infrastructure development. Well, you know,

2389
02:26:51,920 --> 02:26:56,520
Speaker 1: some infrastructure development, not others. Right, the war the war complex,

2390
02:26:56,600 --> 02:26:59,760
Speaker 1: we can do a little without. But you know, the

2391
02:27:00,040 --> 02:27:04,200
Speaker 1: the thing about it is those big problems. You're right,

2392
02:27:04,240 --> 02:27:05,520
Speaker 1: it looks like there's not going to be like a

2393
02:27:05,560 --> 02:27:08,200
Speaker 1: big solution, uh, and that we're going to kind of

2394
02:27:08,240 --> 02:27:10,560
Speaker 1: have to cope with the consequences of of it, at

2395
02:27:10,640 --> 02:27:16,000
Speaker 1: least at first. Even coping this is this is kind

2396
02:27:16,040 --> 02:27:18,120
Speaker 1: of where I think the real kind of substance of

2397
02:27:18,440 --> 02:27:21,760
Speaker 1: of of the problem that libertarian socialist are facing right now.

2398
02:27:22,200 --> 02:27:26,520
Speaker 1: Even coping would require a greater level of organization than

2399
02:27:26,879 --> 02:27:29,360
Speaker 1: we have proven able to muster up to now. Not

2400
02:27:29,600 --> 02:27:33,200
Speaker 1: because the methods that we choose don't work. Because in fact,

2401
02:27:33,400 --> 02:27:35,640
Speaker 1: as you point out, and as I actually really want

2402
02:27:35,680 --> 02:27:38,960
Speaker 1: to forcefully argue, and because because we do in the

2403
02:27:39,120 --> 02:27:42,040
Speaker 1: end of the essay, like authoritarian methods don't work and

2404
02:27:42,200 --> 02:27:44,320
Speaker 1: can't work for a lot of the specific problems that

2405
02:27:44,360 --> 02:27:48,840
Speaker 1: we face. Uh. And history shows that very definitively. But um,

2406
02:27:50,520 --> 02:27:54,720
Speaker 1: there is also a serious way in which even kind

2407
02:27:54,800 --> 02:27:59,760
Speaker 1: of developing these like you know, local highly like you know,

2408
02:28:00,080 --> 02:28:03,800
Speaker 1: rooted in a community, uh like direct democratic institutions that

2409
02:28:03,959 --> 02:28:07,400
Speaker 1: control real resources, scaling that up to the point where

2410
02:28:07,440 --> 02:28:11,320
Speaker 1: it actually could start replacing some of the gaps left

2411
02:28:11,400 --> 02:28:15,520
Speaker 1: behind by uh you know, uh states and capitalist firms

2412
02:28:15,560 --> 02:28:17,959
Speaker 1: that are too dysfunctional or too focused on their own

2413
02:28:18,000 --> 02:28:21,000
Speaker 1: goals to to to to meet those needs that would

2414
02:28:21,000 --> 02:28:24,240
Speaker 1: actually require us to be able, for example, to know

2415
02:28:25,080 --> 02:28:28,640
Speaker 1: how to build up a cooperative sector in a city,

2416
02:28:29,200 --> 02:28:32,240
Speaker 1: or how to kind of like network the tennis unions

2417
02:28:32,320 --> 02:28:36,760
Speaker 1: that already exist you know, across different uh you know, regions,

2418
02:28:36,840 --> 02:28:39,680
Speaker 1: maybe even across like a continent, and then construct like

2419
02:28:39,840 --> 02:28:44,040
Speaker 1: the way in which they self manage each other or

2420
02:28:44,520 --> 02:28:47,000
Speaker 1: or not each other self managed together the you know,

2421
02:28:47,160 --> 02:28:49,720
Speaker 1: the larger group or would require and you know, there's

2422
02:28:49,720 --> 02:28:52,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people working on these problems, but sometimes

2423
02:28:53,320 --> 02:28:55,680
Speaker 1: there is a kind of like you know, you'll you'll

2424
02:28:55,680 --> 02:28:58,160
Speaker 1: see this like obstacle in the road because for example,

2425
02:28:58,480 --> 02:29:01,440
Speaker 1: like what do you do when and the it might

2426
02:29:01,480 --> 02:29:04,480
Speaker 1: not even be the state properly speaking, right, It might

2427
02:29:04,520 --> 02:29:07,760
Speaker 1: be like a posse that's funded by some rich billionaire

2428
02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:11,440
Speaker 1: asshole who's got like his uh, you know, his notion

2429
02:29:11,520 --> 02:29:13,120
Speaker 1: that some people are just better than others and that

2430
02:29:13,280 --> 02:29:16,040
Speaker 1: you should institute the dictatorship of the tech bros um,

2431
02:29:16,400 --> 02:29:19,240
Speaker 1: you know, And then that billionaire's funding a bunch of

2432
02:29:19,280 --> 02:29:22,200
Speaker 1: people who have got now like you know, some industrial

2433
02:29:22,400 --> 02:29:25,520
Speaker 1: access to industrial infrastructure, and they don't like the fact

2434
02:29:25,560 --> 02:29:27,720
Speaker 1: that you're doing your d I Y like you know,

2435
02:29:28,000 --> 02:29:31,360
Speaker 1: commune or whatever stuff in there on their turf. So

2436
02:29:32,000 --> 02:29:33,640
Speaker 1: how do you fight back against that? I mean, some

2437
02:29:33,760 --> 02:29:35,800
Speaker 1: of it you can fight back against that kind of

2438
02:29:35,840 --> 02:29:38,040
Speaker 1: our current level of capacity, but some of it does

2439
02:29:38,160 --> 02:29:40,600
Speaker 1: kind of require us to start thinking like, well, how

2440
02:29:40,720 --> 02:29:44,120
Speaker 1: do you how do you build up financial independence? What like,

2441
02:29:44,200 --> 02:29:45,840
Speaker 1: how do you build up the kind of independence where

2442
02:29:45,879 --> 02:29:48,200
Speaker 1: it's like if we get kicked off of the capitalist uh.

2443
02:29:48,800 --> 02:29:50,960
Speaker 1: Social media, for example, which is a great deal of

2444
02:29:51,040 --> 02:29:54,080
Speaker 1: what we use for fundraising. What kind of institutions could

2445
02:29:54,120 --> 02:29:57,280
Speaker 1: we create that would be like alternatives, um, that are

2446
02:29:57,320 --> 02:30:00,200
Speaker 1: not like the ones that the Nazis created when there

2447
02:30:00,280 --> 02:30:03,000
Speaker 1: was a purge of some of them that gab like

2448
02:30:03,120 --> 02:30:05,720
Speaker 1: highly dysfunctional, like you know, it didn't even work for them.

2449
02:30:06,040 --> 02:30:07,800
Speaker 1: Uh not that I mean I'm happy about that, but

2450
02:30:07,959 --> 02:30:09,800
Speaker 1: like you know, my point is like the same thing

2451
02:30:09,840 --> 02:30:12,480
Speaker 1: could happen to us, So what would we do? Um

2452
02:30:12,879 --> 02:30:15,720
Speaker 1: the like they're there are all these kinds of things

2453
02:30:15,879 --> 02:30:19,240
Speaker 1: that are more little picture questions in a way, but

2454
02:30:19,360 --> 02:30:22,400
Speaker 1: they scale up relatively quickly to at least like medium

2455
02:30:22,440 --> 02:30:25,240
Speaker 1: sized questions where we need this kind of like um,

2456
02:30:26,280 --> 02:30:29,880
Speaker 1: these these because because part of what it is is

2457
02:30:30,000 --> 02:30:33,000
Speaker 1: also that like it's not that these questions are impossible,

2458
02:30:33,440 --> 02:30:37,880
Speaker 1: it's that they're kind of neglected. And there's um there,

2459
02:30:38,000 --> 02:30:41,720
Speaker 1: there's these uh the thinkers like Christian Williams, who is

2460
02:30:41,720 --> 02:30:44,640
Speaker 1: an anarchist from the Pacific Northwest, who wrote a pamphlet

2461
02:30:44,840 --> 02:30:48,039
Speaker 1: about this called Wither Anarchism. And there was another pamphlet,

2462
02:30:48,360 --> 02:30:53,240
Speaker 1: uh an essay and CounterPunch by a person named Gabrielle

2463
02:30:53,280 --> 02:30:56,879
Speaker 1: Cohn who's an autonomous Marxist basically like a libertarian Marxist

2464
02:30:57,280 --> 02:31:01,800
Speaker 1: Marxist anarchist type um called What Happened to the Anarchist Century?

2465
02:31:01,840 --> 02:31:03,640
Speaker 1: And both of those essays, which I highly recommend that

2466
02:31:03,680 --> 02:31:07,640
Speaker 1: people read, they may they make points basically like this,

2467
02:31:08,040 --> 02:31:11,000
Speaker 1: you know, like where where the focus on how to

2468
02:31:11,080 --> 02:31:13,520
Speaker 1: construct those institutions and the nitty gritty of how to

2469
02:31:13,560 --> 02:31:17,560
Speaker 1: do that has kind of receded from anarchism um as

2470
02:31:17,640 --> 02:31:20,800
Speaker 1: it's actually practiced. Uh In like so there's like a

2471
02:31:20,879 --> 02:31:24,560
Speaker 1: rhetoric of revolutionary transformation, but not always the attention to

2472
02:31:25,120 --> 02:31:27,320
Speaker 1: the nitty gritty of how you actually can like build

2473
02:31:28,120 --> 02:31:32,120
Speaker 1: resilient institutions that actually like carry that through which you know,

2474
02:31:32,640 --> 02:31:34,560
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago people talking about like the one

2475
02:31:34,600 --> 02:31:39,080
Speaker 1: big union and the general strike. But that's kind of like, um, well,

2476
02:31:39,280 --> 02:31:41,200
Speaker 1: a it didn't work in exactly the way that they

2477
02:31:41,240 --> 02:31:44,000
Speaker 1: were thinking it. What even in the most successful revolutions

2478
02:31:44,040 --> 02:31:47,040
Speaker 1: like in Spain and b it was also like the

2479
02:31:48,040 --> 02:31:50,440
Speaker 1: there's there's there's a certain way in which our tensions

2480
02:31:50,640 --> 02:31:53,400
Speaker 1: are focused on other things. And it's not that those

2481
02:31:53,440 --> 02:31:55,760
Speaker 1: things are bad, it's just that like there's been this

2482
02:31:55,959 --> 02:31:59,440
Speaker 1: kind of neglect of the question of large scale organization

2483
02:31:59,800 --> 02:32:03,520
Speaker 1: and how you do coordination, like you know, in order

2484
02:32:03,520 --> 02:32:05,480
Speaker 1: to tackle problems that are kind of like at the

2485
02:32:05,560 --> 02:32:08,440
Speaker 1: scale that that I was talking about before um. And

2486
02:32:08,600 --> 02:32:10,880
Speaker 1: so basically the argument of the essay is that in

2487
02:32:10,959 --> 02:32:15,480
Speaker 1: the absence of that, like for the socialist movement that

2488
02:32:15,560 --> 02:32:19,400
Speaker 1: emerged after turned away from neo anarchist, I'm thinking basically

2489
02:32:19,480 --> 02:32:21,600
Speaker 1: that it had no solutions, which I don't think it's

2490
02:32:21,600 --> 02:32:25,000
Speaker 1: true either, but it's like, you know, like rather it

2491
02:32:25,120 --> 02:32:26,960
Speaker 1: was true in the moment, but it doesn't have to

2492
02:32:27,040 --> 02:32:29,560
Speaker 1: be true, but it was true, but enough people thought

2493
02:32:29,600 --> 02:32:31,119
Speaker 1: that it was that they turned to like the social

2494
02:32:31,160 --> 02:32:34,640
Speaker 1: democratic route. But with the failure of Corbin and Bernie

2495
02:32:35,240 --> 02:32:36,959
Speaker 1: that kind of burned a lot of people out too,

2496
02:32:37,600 --> 02:32:40,200
Speaker 1: and a lot of what is seems like it's coming

2497
02:32:40,320 --> 02:32:42,480
Speaker 1: up now, and I'm wondering, I wonder what you guys

2498
02:32:42,560 --> 02:32:45,680
Speaker 1: think of this, Like a lot of the people that

2499
02:32:45,920 --> 02:32:48,800
Speaker 1: we see showing up in movement spaces, who we see

2500
02:32:48,879 --> 02:32:51,040
Speaker 1: kind of like getting politically activated for the first time

2501
02:32:51,120 --> 02:32:54,040
Speaker 1: or whatever, a lot of those people are really interested

2502
02:32:54,080 --> 02:32:57,200
Speaker 1: in Leninism and on specifically, because I don't I don't

2503
02:32:57,240 --> 02:32:59,480
Speaker 1: know how true that is, that's at least that's that's

2504
02:32:59,520 --> 02:33:01,760
Speaker 1: that that part is not true, at least at least

2505
02:33:01,800 --> 02:33:03,840
Speaker 1: at least here in Portland. That's very much not the

2506
02:33:03,920 --> 02:33:08,360
Speaker 1: case or Portland. Yeah, got no other No other part

2507
02:33:08,440 --> 02:33:10,640
Speaker 1: of the country is like Portland, other than maybe Eugene.

2508
02:33:11,080 --> 02:33:14,600
Speaker 1: Like okay, that's that's fair. That's why a little bit

2509
02:33:14,680 --> 02:33:17,320
Speaker 1: too like Portland. Portland is a big enough anarchist city

2510
02:33:17,360 --> 02:33:21,560
Speaker 1: that there are entire decade long like like inter anarchist

2511
02:33:21,600 --> 02:33:23,440
Speaker 1: wars that no one else in the US has ever

2512
02:33:23,560 --> 02:33:25,959
Speaker 1: heard of, that are like the most important thing that's

2513
02:33:26,000 --> 02:33:30,280
Speaker 1: ever happened in Portland's Oh boy, welcome to the Green reds.

2514
02:33:30,520 --> 02:33:32,680
Speaker 1: Let me tell you, Chris, you have just piste off

2515
02:33:32,920 --> 02:33:36,800
Speaker 1: sixty people who could not explain to you if you

2516
02:33:37,000 --> 02:33:39,520
Speaker 1: gave them a year, could not explain to you why

2517
02:33:39,600 --> 02:33:44,520
Speaker 1: they're angry. And I mean to be to be fair,

2518
02:33:44,920 --> 02:33:47,040
Speaker 1: like I I am an anarchist in Chicago. When the

2519
02:33:47,040 --> 02:33:48,880
Speaker 1: first time I introduced two of my Twitter mutuals together,

2520
02:33:48,879 --> 02:33:52,600
Speaker 1: they almost got a fist fight. So like that makes yeah,

2521
02:33:52,680 --> 02:33:56,160
Speaker 1: that's that completely scans even with like DSA stuff, I

2522
02:33:56,200 --> 02:33:58,840
Speaker 1: feel like there's there was at least was a trend

2523
02:33:58,840 --> 02:34:01,280
Speaker 1: a little bit too stale way from some of the

2524
02:34:01,400 --> 02:34:06,480
Speaker 1: more Russia communist kind of like types of aesthetics and

2525
02:34:06,840 --> 02:34:08,800
Speaker 1: en ideas because it is a turn off for so

2526
02:34:08,879 --> 02:34:12,200
Speaker 1: many people and it does not encourage us, and it

2527
02:34:12,280 --> 02:34:16,320
Speaker 1: has like encouraging forefront a form of authoritarianism that maybe

2528
02:34:16,680 --> 02:34:22,360
Speaker 1: is not great. Yeah, I don't know, Like I've seen

2529
02:34:22,400 --> 02:34:24,240
Speaker 1: sort of both friends in walk. So I think the

2530
02:34:24,400 --> 02:34:29,440
Speaker 1: last like a year has been very different than I

2531
02:34:29,480 --> 02:34:32,240
Speaker 1: think the previous five. I've seen it on Twitter, but

2532
02:34:32,360 --> 02:34:35,560
Speaker 1: I don't know how much it expands into as I think.

2533
02:34:35,600 --> 02:34:38,200
Speaker 1: I think it's like I saw more things happens in

2534
02:34:38,240 --> 02:34:40,240
Speaker 1: the d s A is that the Leninists essentially took

2535
02:34:40,280 --> 02:34:43,720
Speaker 1: over the International Committee and they had this kind of

2536
02:34:43,760 --> 02:34:45,840
Speaker 1: delicious division label inside the d s A where like

2537
02:34:46,200 --> 02:34:47,760
Speaker 1: you have like you have a part of the d

2538
02:34:47,840 --> 02:34:50,160
Speaker 1: s A that's essentially a social democratic machine, and then

2539
02:34:50,200 --> 02:34:51,920
Speaker 1: you have the International Committee, which is which is the

2540
02:34:52,080 --> 02:34:56,080
Speaker 1: foreign policy wing essentially run by by essentially run by

2541
02:34:56,120 --> 02:34:58,240
Speaker 1: by the Leninists. And I think, I don't know, I

2542
02:34:58,280 --> 02:34:59,600
Speaker 1: think I saw it there. And the other thing I

2543
02:34:59,640 --> 02:35:02,160
Speaker 1: think I saw a lot of that I've seen even

2544
02:35:02,160 --> 02:35:04,480
Speaker 1: from people who are ordinarily not Stalinist, is what you know,

2545
02:35:04,520 --> 02:35:06,280
Speaker 1: part of what is talking about this is the sort

2546
02:35:06,280 --> 02:35:09,480
Speaker 1: of like climate Stalinism or like climate wow stuff like that.

2547
02:35:09,720 --> 02:35:14,840
Speaker 1: That is a huge problem that you know, I mean

2548
02:35:14,879 --> 02:35:17,520
Speaker 1: I think I think part of it also just has

2549
02:35:17,560 --> 02:35:20,680
Speaker 1: to do with the fact that people don't like Okay,

2550
02:35:20,720 --> 02:35:24,560
Speaker 1: so like we we have actually existing uh climate Leninism,

2551
02:35:24,720 --> 02:35:26,800
Speaker 1: like we have it. It's it's it's it's it's China,

2552
02:35:26,959 --> 02:35:31,920
Speaker 1: Like the CCP changed, it's literally changed. State ideology in

2553
02:35:32,120 --> 02:35:34,680
Speaker 1: in in the mid two thousand tends, as you know,

2554
02:35:34,760 --> 02:35:37,200
Speaker 1: as an attempt to deal to deal with with within

2555
02:35:37,320 --> 02:35:39,879
Speaker 1: with pollution and climate change. It did nothing, Like they

2556
02:35:39,920 --> 02:35:43,119
Speaker 1: pressed every price. It doesn't it didn't like, it didn't work. Yeah, yeah,

2557
02:35:43,160 --> 02:35:45,080
Speaker 1: I mean they did carbon markets, they did. They literally

2558
02:35:45,160 --> 02:35:47,560
Speaker 1: just banned coal and entire provinces and it didn't work.

2559
02:35:47,760 --> 02:35:52,959
Speaker 1: They they changed the contrat evaluations. I I the problem people. Yeah,

2560
02:35:53,440 --> 02:35:57,120
Speaker 1: Like Late lays this out specifically with China to an

2561
02:35:57,160 --> 02:36:00,840
Speaker 1: excruciating degree, like like in detail. If you're really interested

2562
02:36:01,160 --> 02:36:04,440
Speaker 1: in this type of like climate left authoritarianism. They call

2563
02:36:04,480 --> 02:36:05,840
Speaker 1: it climate now in the book, but you can call

2564
02:36:05,879 --> 02:36:08,720
Speaker 1: it climate climate leninism, you can call it whatever. But

2565
02:36:08,840 --> 02:36:12,080
Speaker 1: they lay out how it could work and how use

2566
02:36:12,160 --> 02:36:15,840
Speaker 1: cases of it have not worked. Um to a pretty

2567
02:36:15,920 --> 02:36:17,720
Speaker 1: pretty intense degree. If you're interested in that, I would

2568
02:36:17,720 --> 02:36:20,840
Speaker 1: recommend reading the book Climate. Leviathan definitely influenced a large

2569
02:36:20,920 --> 02:36:25,560
Speaker 1: portion of the writing for this show. Yeah, and I

2570
02:36:25,640 --> 02:36:28,000
Speaker 1: mean to your point, I don't think that this is

2571
02:36:28,120 --> 02:36:30,480
Speaker 1: the only trend I do. I agree with you that

2572
02:36:30,640 --> 02:36:36,000
Speaker 1: out of like the conjuncture, there was this um I

2573
02:36:36,040 --> 02:36:38,279
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of the more like establishment

2574
02:36:38,400 --> 02:36:41,920
Speaker 1: reformist aspects of the movement were discredited and that pushed

2575
02:36:41,959 --> 02:36:44,560
Speaker 1: people in different radical directions, like one of which very

2576
02:36:44,640 --> 02:36:47,360
Speaker 1: much is anarchism and libertarian socialism. I am seeing a

2577
02:36:47,440 --> 02:36:50,080
Speaker 1: lot more faces that are interested in in in those

2578
02:36:50,160 --> 02:36:53,120
Speaker 1: questions for sure. Uh. And that's kind of counter to

2579
02:36:53,240 --> 02:36:55,080
Speaker 1: the trend that I was describing from the last like

2580
02:36:55,160 --> 02:36:57,760
Speaker 1: five years of like, you know, people becoming more disinterested

2581
02:36:57,800 --> 02:37:01,000
Speaker 1: because of the real or perceived lack of Lucians. However,

2582
02:37:01,720 --> 02:37:03,880
Speaker 1: I do think that it's important, and this is kind

2583
02:37:03,879 --> 02:37:06,640
Speaker 1: of following on Chris's Climate Leninism point, to understand that

2584
02:37:06,720 --> 02:37:09,680
Speaker 1: there's at least a counter trend where a lot of

2585
02:37:09,800 --> 02:37:13,000
Speaker 1: people are have not only moved away from libertarian socialism,

2586
02:37:13,240 --> 02:37:15,360
Speaker 1: have not only moved but they've also moved away from

2587
02:37:15,360 --> 02:37:19,440
Speaker 1: democratic socialism. And if you follow that pattern, which is

2588
02:37:19,520 --> 02:37:21,800
Speaker 1: a pattern that I at least have seen within the

2589
02:37:21,920 --> 02:37:24,920
Speaker 1: d s A, within various trade unions, in a lot

2590
02:37:25,000 --> 02:37:28,440
Speaker 1: of among a lot of like intelligencia type people like journalists, professors,

2591
02:37:28,520 --> 02:37:32,959
Speaker 1: blah blah, you see a very common set of arguments.

2592
02:37:33,080 --> 02:37:35,360
Speaker 1: And I think it's very clear that as the century

2593
02:37:35,440 --> 02:37:38,160
Speaker 1: proceeds and the crises get worse and start killing like

2594
02:37:38,320 --> 02:37:40,640
Speaker 1: even larger numbers of people than they already are, we're

2595
02:37:40,680 --> 02:37:44,080
Speaker 1: going to see this argument a lot more. Um and

2596
02:37:44,360 --> 02:37:46,920
Speaker 1: and the argument is something like this. I mean, there's

2597
02:37:46,920 --> 02:37:49,880
Speaker 1: a quote from a tweet. Uh and and you know,

2598
02:37:50,000 --> 02:37:54,240
Speaker 1: one could argue that the tweet doesn't matter, but you

2599
02:37:54,360 --> 02:37:58,200
Speaker 1: are naive if you think this is the tweet climate.

2600
02:37:58,560 --> 02:38:00,560
Speaker 1: You are naive if you think climate can ever be

2601
02:38:00,680 --> 02:38:04,960
Speaker 1: solved without an authoritarian government at this point. That's and

2602
02:38:05,040 --> 02:38:07,480
Speaker 1: that's that's the whole thing. So it's a it's a

2603
02:38:07,600 --> 02:38:11,040
Speaker 1: nasty little tweet because it's ambiguous, right, it has this

2604
02:38:11,200 --> 02:38:14,360
Speaker 1: like shocking and scandalous effects. You know, we need authoritarianism

2605
02:38:14,480 --> 02:38:17,080
Speaker 1: to to to solve climate change a scandalous you know,

2606
02:38:17,760 --> 02:38:20,400
Speaker 1: bougeois or whatever. But then it's like okay, wait, but

2607
02:38:20,920 --> 02:38:22,960
Speaker 1: what do you mean by authoritarian? Am I just being

2608
02:38:23,040 --> 02:38:28,640
Speaker 1: hysterical reactor. It's the same as saying you're naive if

2609
02:38:28,800 --> 02:38:32,240
Speaker 1: you think that, um, climate change can be solved without

2610
02:38:33,040 --> 02:38:36,360
Speaker 1: nuclear power, or climate change can be solved without really

2611
02:38:36,440 --> 02:38:40,480
Speaker 1: big hammers, Like we have authoritarian governments, we have nuclear power,

2612
02:38:40,600 --> 02:38:42,640
Speaker 1: we have really big hammers, and climate change does not

2613
02:38:42,760 --> 02:38:44,800
Speaker 1: be solved been solved. Is it possible that any of

2614
02:38:44,879 --> 02:38:47,440
Speaker 1: those things might be a part of a theoretical solution

2615
02:38:47,520 --> 02:38:51,680
Speaker 1: that may happen someday, Yes, but it hasn't. And there's like,

2616
02:38:52,080 --> 02:38:55,240
Speaker 1: if you're trying to say that authoritarian governments are better

2617
02:38:55,440 --> 02:38:59,640
Speaker 1: at dealing with climate change than the governments that currently dominate.

2618
02:38:59,720 --> 02:39:02,360
Speaker 1: Number on, hell of a lot of authoritarian governments are

2619
02:39:02,440 --> 02:39:05,440
Speaker 1: responsible for our current situation, our climate change. Number two

2620
02:39:06,080 --> 02:39:08,920
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, which I suspect most of these people

2621
02:39:09,040 --> 02:39:12,520
Speaker 1: see as a guiding light, horrible for the environment, turned

2622
02:39:12,560 --> 02:39:17,240
Speaker 1: the largest body of water in Eurasia into a poison lake. Yes,

2623
02:39:17,920 --> 02:39:21,880
Speaker 1: not not not good at the environment, you know. And

2624
02:39:22,000 --> 02:39:25,240
Speaker 1: here's here's what's interesting about the thing. To me. The

2625
02:39:25,320 --> 02:39:28,080
Speaker 1: other thing that it's doing is kind of signaling that

2626
02:39:28,320 --> 02:39:32,480
Speaker 1: it's like patently ridiculous to oppose this idea without specifying

2627
02:39:32,560 --> 02:39:35,959
Speaker 1: what the idea is like and like in other words,

2628
02:39:35,959 --> 02:39:39,879
Speaker 1: authoritarianism like but like, I mean, let's let's be blunt right,

2629
02:39:40,280 --> 02:39:43,720
Speaker 1: what they're implying as a Leninist is the one party state,

2630
02:39:43,760 --> 02:39:46,720
Speaker 1: the secret police, press censorship, in the command economy. So

2631
02:39:47,520 --> 02:39:50,040
Speaker 1: does that help you fight climate cheese? That's actually an

2632
02:39:50,120 --> 02:39:52,560
Speaker 1: interesting and a kind of like you know, distant five

2633
02:39:52,640 --> 02:39:55,400
Speaker 1: thousand foot view, you know, from the god's eye view

2634
02:39:55,480 --> 02:39:59,000
Speaker 1: or whatever, like, uh, the that's an interesting technical question.

2635
02:39:59,200 --> 02:40:01,840
Speaker 1: Do the has actually helped or hinder a response? But

2636
02:40:01,920 --> 02:40:04,240
Speaker 1: we're not even having that conversation because instead it's this

2637
02:40:04,360 --> 02:40:06,920
Speaker 1: kind of underhanded attempt to get you to think that.

2638
02:40:07,160 --> 02:40:09,600
Speaker 1: So again, does a tweet matter? Well, I think a

2639
02:40:09,640 --> 02:40:12,000
Speaker 1: tweet matters if it comes from a member of the

2640
02:40:12,080 --> 02:40:15,080
Speaker 1: National Political Committee of the d s A, because at

2641
02:40:15,160 --> 02:40:17,520
Speaker 1: least ostensibly if d s A is, which is who

2642
02:40:17,680 --> 02:40:21,240
Speaker 1: the person who did that tweet? Because at least ostensibly,

2643
02:40:21,320 --> 02:40:22,840
Speaker 1: if d s A is a mass movement, as it

2644
02:40:22,920 --> 02:40:26,120
Speaker 1: purports to be the mass movement of socialists in the US,

2645
02:40:26,440 --> 02:40:29,520
Speaker 1: and you know, and and the National Political Committee is

2646
02:40:29,680 --> 02:40:33,000
Speaker 1: ostensibly the leadership of the d s which I personally

2647
02:40:33,040 --> 02:40:36,480
Speaker 1: don't believe, but that's certainly how they think of themselves. Um.

2648
02:40:37,440 --> 02:40:41,000
Speaker 1: Then this indicates that the largest most important socialist mass

2649
02:40:41,040 --> 02:40:44,720
Speaker 1: movement in the US, at least self branded UH, has

2650
02:40:45,080 --> 02:40:48,600
Speaker 1: people in its leadership who believe that the secret police

2651
02:40:48,680 --> 02:40:52,760
Speaker 1: might help in addressing climate change. That's an interesting thing

2652
02:40:52,879 --> 02:40:55,120
Speaker 1: and it's also very disturbing. And the thing is this,

2653
02:40:55,640 --> 02:40:59,480
Speaker 1: this person is not actually like important, He's a symptom

2654
02:40:59,760 --> 02:41:02,880
Speaker 1: be because this is something that's happening across the board.

2655
02:41:02,920 --> 02:41:06,880
Speaker 1: And a more intellectually serious version of this argument was

2656
02:41:06,959 --> 02:41:12,120
Speaker 1: put forward by the Marxist intellectual and historian um a

2657
02:41:12,200 --> 02:41:15,800
Speaker 1: professor of human ecology called Andreas Mom. And people who

2658
02:41:15,800 --> 02:41:18,080
Speaker 1: are really into like Marx Nerds stuff will probably have

2659
02:41:18,160 --> 02:41:22,160
Speaker 1: heard Mom's Yeah, what a very good book called Fossil Capital.

2660
02:41:22,240 --> 02:41:26,480
Speaker 1: Everything he's written after Fossil Capital is a disaster. I

2661
02:41:26,840 --> 02:41:30,360
Speaker 1: like some of the sabotage. It's it's I mean, it's

2662
02:41:30,480 --> 02:41:35,000
Speaker 1: a little romantic and impractically. He wrote an ethical discourse

2663
02:41:35,120 --> 02:41:38,320
Speaker 1: instead of a thing about like the risk of eco sabotage,

2664
02:41:38,360 --> 02:41:42,880
Speaker 1: which is the actual important part of the degree to

2665
02:41:42,920 --> 02:41:47,160
Speaker 1: which it can matter. Because eco sabotage, there's this idea

2666
02:41:47,400 --> 02:41:49,680
Speaker 1: on the left that like what we need to do

2667
02:41:49,840 --> 02:41:52,800
Speaker 1: is be targeting fossil fuel infrastructure. And again it's like

2668
02:41:52,959 --> 02:41:56,280
Speaker 1: what it's it's like what that ds A dude said, Like, yeah,

2669
02:41:56,400 --> 02:42:00,920
Speaker 1: that could theoretically be a part of but also process.

2670
02:42:01,000 --> 02:42:03,600
Speaker 1: If it's like nine dudes who do it and then

2671
02:42:03,640 --> 02:42:06,080
Speaker 1: they go to prison or get shot, well that doesn't

2672
02:42:06,120 --> 02:42:09,880
Speaker 1: really fix climate. I think the book, the book A

2673
02:42:09,959 --> 02:42:12,240
Speaker 1: Ministry for the Future really lays out all of the

2674
02:42:12,680 --> 02:42:15,560
Speaker 1: all kind of like the best case scenario for all

2675
02:42:15,600 --> 02:42:17,360
Speaker 1: these types of things and how they can work together

2676
02:42:17,720 --> 02:42:21,080
Speaker 1: to overall trend in this direction. Because yeah, that type

2677
02:42:21,120 --> 02:42:24,320
Speaker 1: of like eco sabotage in conjunction with other like political

2678
02:42:24,400 --> 02:42:27,959
Speaker 1: effects can be impactful on what things happen. But it's

2679
02:42:28,000 --> 02:42:31,240
Speaker 1: can won't necessarily be you know, it's not it's not

2680
02:42:31,280 --> 02:42:33,640
Speaker 1: as simple as we would like it to be, because yeah,

2681
02:42:33,680 --> 02:42:37,560
Speaker 1: it's it turns out a complex world has complex consequences

2682
02:42:37,600 --> 02:42:40,440
Speaker 1: and complex and I think I think this is you know,

2683
02:42:40,560 --> 02:42:42,120
Speaker 1: the trend that Mom was on, the trend on that

2684
02:42:42,240 --> 02:42:45,560
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a big environmental authoritarian like thing

2685
02:42:45,879 --> 02:42:48,440
Speaker 1: among among liberals is a huge thing. In political science,

2686
02:42:48,520 --> 02:42:50,720
Speaker 1: was a big thing, and in ecological studies that was

2687
02:42:50,840 --> 02:42:53,640
Speaker 1: essentially making a similar argument to to I'm almost making

2688
02:42:53,720 --> 02:42:56,119
Speaker 1: this like, well, okay, you need some kind of air

2689
02:42:56,200 --> 02:43:00,400
Speaker 1: quotes vague authoritarianism to deal to a climate change, and

2690
02:43:02,040 --> 02:43:06,640
Speaker 1: you know it's it's it's it's basically this this attempt.

2691
02:43:06,720 --> 02:43:10,600
Speaker 1: There's like these people have have seen climate change, but

2692
02:43:10,840 --> 02:43:12,760
Speaker 1: they have no actual solution to it, so they wave

2693
02:43:12,840 --> 02:43:15,200
Speaker 1: their hands and pretend that like this, like you know,

2694
02:43:15,320 --> 02:43:16,840
Speaker 1: the state is going to descend from this guy and

2695
02:43:16,879 --> 02:43:20,960
Speaker 1: save them, and it's not. And I think that's you know,

2696
02:43:21,080 --> 02:43:25,640
Speaker 1: I think I think we're we're sort of I don't know,

2697
02:43:25,800 --> 02:43:28,280
Speaker 1: I think as we just I guess kind of wrap

2698
02:43:28,440 --> 02:43:31,000
Speaker 1: this up because we unfortunately they're running out of time.

2699
02:43:31,080 --> 02:43:34,480
Speaker 1: But you know this like this exact moment like like

2700
02:43:34,600 --> 02:43:37,200
Speaker 1: these like few weeks are this moment of incredible like

2701
02:43:37,400 --> 02:43:39,320
Speaker 1: rupture on the left right, because we have we've had

2702
02:43:39,400 --> 02:43:41,600
Speaker 1: we've had in some way social democrats be discredited by

2703
02:43:41,600 --> 02:43:44,400
Speaker 1: the fact that like Corbin and Sanders both lost, right,

2704
02:43:44,440 --> 02:43:47,560
Speaker 1: their political project has been discredited. Um, we've had a

2705
02:43:47,600 --> 02:43:50,080
Speaker 1: serious sort of anexist failures. But then you know, in

2706
02:43:50,200 --> 02:43:51,840
Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks, right, it was all of

2707
02:43:51,920 --> 02:43:55,080
Speaker 1: the sort of big state like authoritarian people like tied

2708
02:43:55,120 --> 02:43:57,960
Speaker 1: themselves through a bunch of imperialists, and you know, may

2709
02:43:58,240 --> 02:44:00,920
Speaker 1: staked their whole entire politicy off of them being the

2710
02:44:00,959 --> 02:44:04,240
Speaker 1: anti imperialist class. And then you know the state who's

2711
02:44:04,320 --> 02:44:06,680
Speaker 1: like a bunch of their press people like literally work

2712
02:44:06,800 --> 02:44:08,960
Speaker 1: for right and who who they've been arguing like is

2713
02:44:09,120 --> 02:44:12,720
Speaker 1: the count imperist powers does imperialism? And so like, Yeah,

2714
02:44:12,840 --> 02:44:16,800
Speaker 1: I think we have this moment where everything is in chaos,

2715
02:44:18,240 --> 02:44:21,280
Speaker 1: in which we have to be the ones that that

2716
02:44:21,840 --> 02:44:24,920
Speaker 1: that have solutions or have or have the tools to

2717
02:44:25,000 --> 02:44:27,760
Speaker 1: build them. And I think that's why that's why this

2718
02:44:27,840 --> 02:44:30,640
Speaker 1: project is important, because that's that's something that we need

2719
02:44:31,120 --> 02:44:36,360
Speaker 1: in this exact moment. Yeah, I think there's a tremendous

2720
02:44:36,480 --> 02:44:40,280
Speaker 1: value in being humble about seeking out solutions to these

2721
02:44:40,360 --> 02:44:43,040
Speaker 1: questions and not doing what so many do on the

2722
02:44:43,160 --> 02:44:45,840
Speaker 1: left and pretend that their tendency has an absolute answer,

2723
02:44:45,879 --> 02:44:48,240
Speaker 1: because all we have is theories. And the reason I

2724
02:44:48,320 --> 02:44:50,080
Speaker 1: know that to a point of certainty is that no

2725
02:44:50,120 --> 02:44:53,680
Speaker 1: one has solved any of these problems yet absolutely, And

2726
02:44:54,000 --> 02:44:56,800
Speaker 1: and so there is a tremendous degree of humility that

2727
02:44:56,920 --> 02:44:58,760
Speaker 1: people need to have in terms of like, all right,

2728
02:44:58,800 --> 02:45:03,240
Speaker 1: well we are attempting to to arrive at the conclusions

2729
02:45:03,280 --> 02:45:05,359
Speaker 1: that can lead us to a better world, as opposed

2730
02:45:05,360 --> 02:45:09,000
Speaker 1: to we are trying to force through this thing that

2731
02:45:09,080 --> 02:45:11,800
Speaker 1: we know will work. Um, because you don't you know,

2732
02:45:11,920 --> 02:45:14,480
Speaker 1: if you're a Marxist Leninist and you think that we

2733
02:45:14,600 --> 02:45:17,000
Speaker 1: need climate MAU, you don't know that that will work

2734
02:45:17,040 --> 02:45:19,920
Speaker 1: because it hasn't yet. And if you're an anarchist who

2735
02:45:19,959 --> 02:45:24,200
Speaker 1: thinks the solution is bombing as many oil refineries as

2736
02:45:24,240 --> 02:45:26,000
Speaker 1: you possibly can, well, you don't know that you're ever

2737
02:45:26,040 --> 02:45:27,600
Speaker 1: going to get enough people on board for that to

2738
02:45:27,720 --> 02:45:33,080
Speaker 1: mean anything. Um. And I think that there's the conversations

2739
02:45:33,120 --> 02:45:35,360
Speaker 1: that we need to be having. I think it's it's

2740
02:45:35,360 --> 02:45:38,320
Speaker 1: important to see them as conversations as opposed to polemics

2741
02:45:38,959 --> 02:45:42,400
Speaker 1: aimed at just getting people in line behind this shining

2742
02:45:42,520 --> 02:45:45,360
Speaker 1: vision of a of a clear set of steps. Um.

2743
02:45:45,560 --> 02:45:47,560
Speaker 1: It's important to envision the end goal. I say that

2744
02:45:47,640 --> 02:45:49,720
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, we need to be looking and

2745
02:45:49,879 --> 02:45:53,440
Speaker 1: and accepting the possibility of a better future, but it's

2746
02:45:53,480 --> 02:45:55,840
Speaker 1: important not to be dogmatic about the road to get

2747
02:45:55,920 --> 02:45:58,680
Speaker 1: there because nobody, nobody really has a clear idea of

2748
02:45:58,760 --> 02:46:03,920
Speaker 1: what that looks like. Yeah. So the piece ends up

2749
02:46:04,000 --> 02:46:05,680
Speaker 1: and if you want to see the ending of it,

2750
02:46:05,760 --> 02:46:08,320
Speaker 1: it'll it'll be up in um in sometime in the

2751
02:46:08,400 --> 02:46:11,080
Speaker 1: next couple of weeks. But the basic gist of where

2752
02:46:11,080 --> 02:46:15,120
Speaker 1: it goes is precisely to the practical question, right, instead

2753
02:46:15,160 --> 02:46:20,560
Speaker 1: of like making these like polemical arguments that are rooted

2754
02:46:20,680 --> 02:46:23,240
Speaker 1: more in like kind of like what tribe you've decided

2755
02:46:23,280 --> 02:46:25,680
Speaker 1: to identify with within the broad family of socialism than

2756
02:46:25,800 --> 02:46:27,920
Speaker 1: in like actually trying to like solve problems for the

2757
02:46:27,959 --> 02:46:31,240
Speaker 1: people around you, right, or help contribute to the solutions,

2758
02:46:31,560 --> 02:46:35,040
Speaker 1: Like it's actually what we want to ask is like,

2759
02:46:35,640 --> 02:46:40,480
Speaker 1: if we have like the giant ecological crisis, Uh, how

2760
02:46:40,560 --> 02:46:42,720
Speaker 1: do you how do you actually do it? Is it

2761
02:46:42,800 --> 02:46:44,680
Speaker 1: by trying to force people from the top down to

2762
02:46:44,800 --> 02:46:47,240
Speaker 1: do it as Um under his mom kind of draws

2763
02:46:47,320 --> 02:46:50,880
Speaker 1: on the failed uh policies of war communisms and inspiration

2764
02:46:51,520 --> 02:46:54,800
Speaker 1: for that. Or is it potentially by having like democrats

2765
02:46:54,800 --> 02:46:58,200
Speaker 1: democratized institutions that incentivize people with carrots instead of sticks,

2766
02:46:58,240 --> 02:47:01,280
Speaker 1: Like Naomi Klein basically uncovered a want of our journalism

2767
02:47:01,360 --> 02:47:03,800
Speaker 1: and this changes everything. So this is kind of like

2768
02:47:04,040 --> 02:47:07,080
Speaker 1: the debate that we have to start having in order

2769
02:47:07,120 --> 02:47:12,960
Speaker 1: to be able to together formulate these kinds of solutions. Yeah, alright,

2770
02:47:13,040 --> 02:47:16,680
Speaker 1: well I think that's gonna do it for for us today. Um,

2771
02:47:17,480 --> 02:47:19,040
Speaker 1: what do we what do we? We do? You go,

2772
02:47:19,200 --> 02:47:21,720
Speaker 1: you guys gotta gotta gotta plug. You want to throw up?

2773
02:47:22,080 --> 02:47:26,680
Speaker 1: Throw up before we roll out? Yeah. If if you

2774
02:47:26,720 --> 02:47:32,400
Speaker 1: want to follow us at at Strange Underscore Matters UM

2775
02:47:32,879 --> 02:47:36,520
Speaker 1: on Twitter. UM. We also have a Facebook and you

2776
02:47:36,600 --> 02:47:41,320
Speaker 1: can read our articles at Strange Matters dot co op,

2777
02:47:41,879 --> 02:47:44,920
Speaker 1: which is our website. Uh. And if anything that you

2778
02:47:45,120 --> 02:47:47,400
Speaker 1: read there that you've heard here inspires you at all,

2779
02:47:47,440 --> 02:47:49,480
Speaker 1: please consider donating. We're going to be in the next

2780
02:47:49,560 --> 02:47:52,840
Speaker 1: month raising money, uh for for the magazine and we

2781
02:47:52,879 --> 02:47:55,480
Speaker 1: want to pay writers above market rate because we think

2782
02:47:55,520 --> 02:47:57,920
Speaker 1: market rates too low. So but in order to actually

2783
02:47:57,959 --> 02:47:59,360
Speaker 1: do that, and none of the money is going to

2784
02:47:59,400 --> 02:48:02,320
Speaker 1: the editors from the fundraisers, so if if, if we're

2785
02:48:02,320 --> 02:48:03,800
Speaker 1: gonna be able to do that, we've got to meet

2786
02:48:03,800 --> 02:48:10,240
Speaker 1: our fundraising target. All right, Well support them and you know,

2787
02:48:11,080 --> 02:48:13,360
Speaker 1: figure out how to save the world. It's it's up

2788
02:48:13,440 --> 02:48:16,520
Speaker 1: to you. And I'm speaking to exactly one person right

2789
02:48:16,600 --> 02:48:18,440
Speaker 1: now and no one else, but I'm not going to

2790
02:48:18,520 --> 02:48:29,520
Speaker 1: be more specific. Look for your children's eyes to see

2791
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Speaker 1: the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world

2792
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Speaker 1: for them. You look and see a tree. They see

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Speaker 1: the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to

2794
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Speaker 1: the sky. They see treasuring pebbles. They see a windy

2795
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Speaker 1: path that could lead to adventure, and they see you.

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Speaker 1: They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find a forest

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Speaker 1: near you and start exploring it. Discover the Forest dot

2798
02:48:54,000 --> 02:48:56,280
Speaker 1: org brought to you by the United States Forest Service

2799
02:48:56,360 --> 02:48:59,440
Speaker 1: and the AD Council. Look to your children's eyes to

2800
02:48:59,520 --> 02:49:03,039
Speaker 1: see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook

2801
02:49:03,120 --> 02:49:06,120
Speaker 1: world for them. You look and see a tree. They

2802
02:49:06,240 --> 02:49:09,560
Speaker 1: see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched

2803
02:49:09,640 --> 02:49:12,960
Speaker 1: to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see

2804
02:49:12,959 --> 02:49:16,039
Speaker 1: a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they

2805
02:49:16,120 --> 02:49:20,680
Speaker 1: see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find

2806
02:49:20,720 --> 02:49:23,440
Speaker 1: a forest near you and start exploring a Discover the

2807
02:49:23,480 --> 02:49:25,879
Speaker 1: Forest dot org brought to you by the United States

2808
02:49:25,959 --> 02:49:29,200
Speaker 1: Forest Service and the AD Council. Hi, I'm Katie Lows.

2809
02:49:29,680 --> 02:49:32,240
Speaker 1: You might also know me as Quinn Perkins from Scandal

2810
02:49:32,440 --> 02:49:35,480
Speaker 1: for Rachel from Inventing Anna. I'm also a mother to

2811
02:49:35,600 --> 02:49:38,360
Speaker 1: my son Albi and my daughter Vera. I wanted to

2812
02:49:38,480 --> 02:49:42,000
Speaker 1: create a space for open and honest conversations about all

2813
02:49:42,120 --> 02:49:44,920
Speaker 1: things parted, and I thought a podcast was the best

2814
02:49:45,040 --> 02:49:48,160
Speaker 1: way to do just that. Check out season five of

2815
02:49:48,240 --> 02:49:55,240
Speaker 1: my podcast, Katie's Crib. It is super raw, vulnerable, and hilarious.

2816
02:49:56,040 --> 02:50:00,160
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib in no way shape form is judgmental or

2817
02:50:00,640 --> 02:50:03,440
Speaker 1: telling you exactly how to parent or exactly how you

2818
02:50:03,480 --> 02:50:06,879
Speaker 1: should be. I think it really just makes you feel

2819
02:50:06,920 --> 02:50:09,879
Speaker 1: less alone and gives you a community. We're going deep

2820
02:50:09,959 --> 02:50:13,960
Speaker 1: with guests like inventing Anna's Anna club Ski, how to

2821
02:50:14,000 --> 02:50:18,200
Speaker 1: Get Away with Murders, Asian Naomi King, and yes, sometimes

2822
02:50:18,280 --> 02:50:21,119
Speaker 1: my finality when he burst into my studio. So that's cool.

2823
02:50:21,440 --> 02:50:23,800
Speaker 1: Listen to Katie's Cram every Thursday on the I Heart

2824
02:50:23,879 --> 02:50:27,160
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

2825
02:50:34,320 --> 02:50:37,360
Speaker 1: Welcome to It could Happen Here, a podcast about things

2826
02:50:37,440 --> 02:50:39,960
Speaker 1: following apart and putting it back together again. And today

2827
02:50:40,040 --> 02:50:43,920
Speaker 1: we're doing one of our I guess increasingly less rare

2828
02:50:44,000 --> 02:50:46,560
Speaker 1: but still sort of uncommon putting things back together again

2829
02:50:46,640 --> 02:50:50,080
Speaker 1: episodes and with Me today is Ted Men from Amazonians

2830
02:50:50,160 --> 02:50:54,879
Speaker 1: united to talk about different kinds of union union workers organizing,

2831
02:50:55,480 --> 02:50:57,440
Speaker 1: UM and the work that you all have been doing.

2832
02:50:57,520 --> 02:51:00,800
Speaker 1: So Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me

2833
02:51:02,640 --> 02:51:05,320
Speaker 1: so all right, one of the things that I wanted

2834
02:51:05,320 --> 02:51:08,160
Speaker 1: to talk about right off the bat is that Amazonians

2835
02:51:08,240 --> 02:51:12,320
Speaker 1: United is running a very very different kind of organization

2836
02:51:12,480 --> 02:51:14,840
Speaker 1: than a lot of the union efforts that we've talked

2837
02:51:14,840 --> 02:51:16,080
Speaker 1: about on the show, and a lot of the sort

2838
02:51:16,120 --> 02:51:20,280
Speaker 1: of like I guess, classical sort of business union model

2839
02:51:20,440 --> 02:51:24,840
Speaker 1: stuff that that you know, we've we've we've we you know,

2840
02:51:25,080 --> 02:51:26,440
Speaker 1: than than what you see in the press, and then

2841
02:51:26,480 --> 02:51:29,280
Speaker 1: also that we've been covering. So I wanted to start

2842
02:51:29,360 --> 02:51:33,360
Speaker 1: off by asking you about solidarity unionism and how it

2843
02:51:33,400 --> 02:51:39,640
Speaker 1: sort of differs from other kinds of union organizations and campaigns. Sure,

2844
02:51:40,240 --> 02:51:43,400
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty simple. Actually. I think solidarity unionism

2845
02:51:44,080 --> 02:51:47,760
Speaker 1: is workers who believe in ourselves. By that I mean

2846
02:51:47,840 --> 02:51:52,760
Speaker 1: and it's workers recognizing that we don't need someone to

2847
02:51:52,840 --> 02:51:59,240
Speaker 1: save us UM when because we are the ones doing

2848
02:51:59,360 --> 02:52:03,400
Speaker 1: the work, we know how to run our workplaces, we

2849
02:52:03,560 --> 02:52:08,560
Speaker 1: know how to do it best, and we also deserve

2850
02:52:10,400 --> 02:52:15,840
Speaker 1: the wealth that we produce. So UM, solidity unionism to me,

2851
02:52:16,120 --> 02:52:23,039
Speaker 1: is UH, building organization with each other where the fabric

2852
02:52:23,280 --> 02:52:29,080
Speaker 1: of our organization is our relationship and our solidarity as

2853
02:52:29,240 --> 02:52:35,280
Speaker 1: co workers engaging in struggle against UM, bosses, managers, owners,

2854
02:52:35,959 --> 02:52:39,480
Speaker 1: UM everyone. That's that's telling us what to do while

2855
02:52:40,680 --> 02:52:45,600
Speaker 1: UH taking the lion's share of the wealth that we create. UM.

2856
02:52:47,000 --> 02:52:51,960
Speaker 1: And it's by uniting, coming together around issues that we

2857
02:52:52,040 --> 02:52:56,440
Speaker 1: care about, taking direct action in the workplace, UM, building

2858
02:52:56,640 --> 02:53:01,720
Speaker 1: our confidence and our strength and our consciousness. UM and

2859
02:53:02,040 --> 02:53:07,440
Speaker 1: our organization. To me, a solidary unioniszone UH. It is

2860
02:53:09,000 --> 02:53:14,840
Speaker 1: distinctly different from business unionism, which is the dominant form

2861
02:53:15,440 --> 02:53:19,840
Speaker 1: mainstream unionism, you know, legalistic unionism, whatever you want to

2862
02:53:19,920 --> 02:53:26,200
Speaker 1: call it, UM, that model that has been failing for

2863
02:53:26,840 --> 02:53:33,720
Speaker 1: several decades. UM actually is predicated on a deep distrust

2864
02:53:34,080 --> 02:53:40,600
Speaker 1: of workers, the disbelief that workers can organize ourselves, run

2865
02:53:40,680 --> 02:53:45,520
Speaker 1: our own workplaces, represent ourselves, defend ourselves and each other. UM.

2866
02:53:46,240 --> 02:53:50,240
Speaker 1: And in business union I mean you know you you

2867
02:53:50,320 --> 02:53:53,640
Speaker 1: see the ads when they're posting UH for union staff job,

2868
02:53:53,920 --> 02:53:57,160
Speaker 1: come lead these workers, Come come join this union and lead.

2869
02:53:58,560 --> 02:54:00,360
Speaker 1: You're not even a worker in the work place? Are

2870
02:54:00,360 --> 02:54:02,840
Speaker 1: you going to lead someone in there? Like you know,

2871
02:54:03,000 --> 02:54:05,440
Speaker 1: you're you're a lawyer, you're you know you have a

2872
02:54:05,480 --> 02:54:08,960
Speaker 1: different professional expertise. You're not moving the packages with us

2873
02:54:09,120 --> 02:54:15,160
Speaker 1: from with from within the warehouse and so um, yeah,

2874
02:54:15,240 --> 02:54:18,320
Speaker 1: I think that's that's the main difference to me of

2875
02:54:18,440 --> 02:54:21,600
Speaker 1: the model. Do you are you a worker? Do you

2876
02:54:21,680 --> 02:54:24,680
Speaker 1: believe in workers? Do you trust and have faith that

2877
02:54:24,760 --> 02:54:29,280
Speaker 1: workers we ourselves can build our own organization, lead ourselves? Um?

2878
02:54:30,200 --> 02:54:34,160
Speaker 1: And um? And when or do you think workers need

2879
02:54:34,240 --> 02:54:36,560
Speaker 1: to be led, need to be represented, need to be

2880
02:54:36,800 --> 02:54:40,160
Speaker 1: told what to do? Um, need to pay you to

2881
02:54:40,640 --> 02:54:46,240
Speaker 1: go and save that? Um? And uh. Yeah, I believe

2882
02:54:46,280 --> 02:54:50,480
Speaker 1: in workers almost. I'm a solidarity unionist. Yeah. And I

2883
02:54:50,600 --> 02:54:53,680
Speaker 1: think we were talking a bit before the show about this,

2884
02:54:53,800 --> 02:54:56,040
Speaker 1: and I think there's there's a lot of aspects about

2885
02:54:56,080 --> 02:55:01,120
Speaker 1: this that are I think very powerful in you know,

2886
02:55:01,400 --> 02:55:03,720
Speaker 1: in in in in secrecy, the economy that haven't been

2887
02:55:03,840 --> 02:55:06,000
Speaker 1: unionized and I haven't or unions ever treated from more

2888
02:55:06,040 --> 02:55:08,480
Speaker 1: people who were never sort of organized and to begin with,

2889
02:55:08,600 --> 02:55:14,400
Speaker 1: And I think that's you know something that there's there,

2890
02:55:14,520 --> 02:55:17,280
Speaker 1: there's the there's this problem that happens like with with

2891
02:55:17,400 --> 02:55:21,680
Speaker 1: a lot of unions where you know, you you you get,

2892
02:55:21,720 --> 02:55:23,640
Speaker 1: you get this sort of beureacratic structure that builds up

2893
02:55:23,640 --> 02:55:26,320
Speaker 1: and the bereacratic structure that builds up like doesn't have

2894
02:55:26,440 --> 02:55:28,920
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have the same interests as the people in

2895
02:55:29,000 --> 02:55:31,040
Speaker 1: the union, and that's a real problem. And you get

2896
02:55:31,080 --> 02:55:33,560
Speaker 1: these entrenched like you know, you can get these in

2897
02:55:33,600 --> 02:55:35,640
Speaker 1: trenched caucuses, you control unions, and you get this the

2898
02:55:35,680 --> 02:55:39,000
Speaker 1: sort of proliferation of of these people. And I think

2899
02:55:39,080 --> 02:55:42,200
Speaker 1: this is this was part of why a lot of

2900
02:55:42,280 --> 02:55:45,120
Speaker 1: the sort of the anti union techniques that you saw

2901
02:55:45,320 --> 02:55:47,600
Speaker 1: in like the sort of anti union persis in the eighties.

2902
02:55:48,720 --> 02:55:50,000
Speaker 1: I mean you've been seeing them for a while. Like

2903
02:55:50,040 --> 02:55:51,920
Speaker 1: why they started working in the eighties was that, like

2904
02:55:52,600 --> 02:55:54,840
Speaker 1: you know, when when when when someone like starts ranting

2905
02:55:54,879 --> 02:55:57,760
Speaker 1: about union bureaucrats right like they're they're actually like there

2906
02:55:57,760 --> 02:55:59,840
Speaker 1: actually was a divide there, Like there there there was

2907
02:55:59,879 --> 02:56:03,360
Speaker 1: a sort of like I guess like like there was

2908
02:56:03,440 --> 02:56:06,440
Speaker 1: a sort of like a kind of fundamental class difference,

2909
02:56:06,480 --> 02:56:10,440
Speaker 1: which I think has a lot I mean, also has

2910
02:56:10,440 --> 02:56:12,400
Speaker 1: a lot to do with you know, when when you

2911
02:56:12,480 --> 02:56:15,600
Speaker 1: get into your sort of like more more revolutionary context

2912
02:56:15,720 --> 02:56:17,520
Speaker 1: that that has to do with why a lot of

2913
02:56:18,400 --> 02:56:21,240
Speaker 1: unions when you know, France is infamous for this, right,

2914
02:56:21,240 --> 02:56:23,480
Speaker 1: Like France has had these giant like comunist trade unions

2915
02:56:23,480 --> 02:56:25,040
Speaker 1: and every time a revolution started at the trade union

2916
02:56:25,160 --> 02:56:28,080
Speaker 1: just like sits there and does nothing. And yeah, and

2917
02:56:28,160 --> 02:56:29,520
Speaker 1: you have to sort of ask yourself like, okay, so

2918
02:56:29,600 --> 02:56:33,080
Speaker 1: why is this happening? And I think, yeah, soldier to unionism,

2919
02:56:33,720 --> 02:56:35,240
Speaker 1: it has, it has a lot of answers to this

2920
02:56:35,320 --> 02:56:37,480
Speaker 1: sort of I guess you call it like that. There's

2921
02:56:37,480 --> 02:56:39,120
Speaker 1: there's a there's a sort of like right wing critique

2922
02:56:39,120 --> 02:56:41,440
Speaker 1: of unions that has to do with like, well, okay,

2923
02:56:41,440 --> 02:56:43,160
Speaker 1: so we don't want workers to organize, we don't want

2924
02:56:43,160 --> 02:56:44,879
Speaker 1: them to reflective power at all. But then there's also

2925
02:56:45,400 --> 02:56:47,480
Speaker 1: you know, but but the reason that it works in

2926
02:56:47,520 --> 02:56:49,240
Speaker 1: a lot of cases because it's able to tap into

2927
02:56:49,280 --> 02:56:52,360
Speaker 1: a sort of like into these structural problems that a

2928
02:56:52,400 --> 02:56:57,119
Speaker 1: lot of unions have. And I think so my understanding

2929
02:56:57,200 --> 02:57:01,040
Speaker 1: of how Yells organizing has been going, and correct me

2930
02:57:01,040 --> 02:57:03,120
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong that I've been interesting is that like

2931
02:57:04,879 --> 02:57:08,160
Speaker 1: unlike a lot of other campaigns that you've seen, even

2932
02:57:08,160 --> 02:57:10,280
Speaker 1: specifically with Amazon, but like a lot of other the

2933
02:57:10,560 --> 02:57:12,440
Speaker 1: sort of the campaigns that are getting a lot of press,

2934
02:57:12,480 --> 02:57:14,400
Speaker 1: like you're not active, like your goal isn't to just

2935
02:57:14,560 --> 02:57:19,560
Speaker 1: get like recognition as a collected bargaining in it. Right.

2936
02:57:20,520 --> 02:57:24,360
Speaker 1: That's another key part of our key difference between solidarity

2937
02:57:24,480 --> 02:57:32,560
Speaker 1: unionism business unionism. UM. In business unionism, you're what defines

2938
02:57:33,040 --> 02:57:36,280
Speaker 1: you as a union is whether you are legally recognized

2939
02:57:36,440 --> 02:57:40,480
Speaker 1: by the state, by n l r B, um, by

2940
02:57:41,240 --> 02:57:47,600
Speaker 1: the appointed government body. Yeah. That is the point at

2941
02:57:47,640 --> 02:57:51,240
Speaker 1: which the folks in these organizations like, are we a

2942
02:57:51,360 --> 02:57:53,920
Speaker 1: union or are we not? Okay, let's let's do an election.

2943
02:57:54,000 --> 02:57:57,080
Speaker 1: Let's follow all these rules that, by the way, we're

2944
02:57:57,120 --> 02:58:02,000
Speaker 1: designed to demobilize us. Yeah, century ago, but let's follow

2945
02:58:02,120 --> 02:58:06,720
Speaker 1: these rules. Let's try to fight in the courts UH

2946
02:58:07,080 --> 02:58:09,600
Speaker 1: to be recognized as a union. And then once we're

2947
02:58:09,600 --> 02:58:11,800
Speaker 1: a union, then we can fight for a legal contract

2948
02:58:12,879 --> 02:58:15,360
Speaker 1: that has benefited a lot of people in different ways.

2949
02:58:15,520 --> 02:58:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm not you know what I mean. Like, but that

2950
02:58:18,440 --> 02:58:24,600
Speaker 1: approach is different than solidity unism, where it's like, we

2951
02:58:24,800 --> 02:58:28,280
Speaker 1: know our power is in the workplace, on the shop floor,

2952
02:58:28,440 --> 02:58:30,760
Speaker 1: where our power is based on our unity and numbers

2953
02:58:30,879 --> 02:58:34,440
Speaker 1: as co workers. We see this when we walk out

2954
02:58:34,640 --> 02:58:36,880
Speaker 1: and within a month they give us a raise. Along

2955
02:58:36,920 --> 02:58:38,600
Speaker 1: would it have taken to get a raise if we

2956
02:58:38,680 --> 02:58:44,880
Speaker 1: went for an l RB election. Yeah, what organization are

2957
02:58:44,920 --> 02:58:49,120
Speaker 1: we even building in that way? And so um our

2958
02:58:50,600 --> 02:58:58,960
Speaker 1: instead of seeking legal recognition and waging our uh struggle

2959
02:58:59,440 --> 02:59:03,800
Speaker 1: again bosses in the courts, we are choosing to wage

2960
02:59:04,760 --> 02:59:09,280
Speaker 1: engage in struggle in the shop floor, where we are

2961
02:59:09,600 --> 02:59:11,760
Speaker 1: the experts, where we have the power, where we have

2962
02:59:11,879 --> 02:59:14,720
Speaker 1: the organization, where we are doing the work, where that

2963
02:59:15,000 --> 02:59:18,920
Speaker 1: is our home turf um. We have more power there, Like,

2964
02:59:19,200 --> 02:59:21,880
Speaker 1: it makes more sense to build power where we have power,

2965
02:59:22,320 --> 02:59:27,360
Speaker 1: not in the institutions that were specifically designed to disempower

2966
02:59:27,520 --> 02:59:30,600
Speaker 1: us and give large employers to the upper hand. Um.

2967
02:59:30,840 --> 02:59:34,600
Speaker 1: All the different ways that they can manipulate how the

2968
02:59:34,720 --> 02:59:40,720
Speaker 1: votes happen, what is considered part of the voting unit, um,

2969
02:59:41,360 --> 02:59:45,360
Speaker 1: the contract negotiation process, I mean, all of these legal hurdles.

2970
02:59:45,760 --> 02:59:50,320
Speaker 1: I mean, for the vast majority of workers, you'll need

2971
02:59:50,480 --> 02:59:54,440
Speaker 1: lawyers to be even understand how to engage in that world.

2972
02:59:54,600 --> 02:59:57,240
Speaker 1: That's not our world. It was not built for us

2973
02:59:57,680 --> 03:00:01,480
Speaker 1: to be in. It was built to control and so um,

2974
03:00:02,280 --> 03:00:07,240
Speaker 1: it just doesn't make logical sense to try to wage

2975
03:00:07,560 --> 03:00:11,040
Speaker 1: our struggle in that arena. We should be in waging

2976
03:00:11,120 --> 03:00:13,880
Speaker 1: it in the places that we work and so um.

2977
03:00:14,120 --> 03:00:18,440
Speaker 1: That yeah, that's I think another core UM principal solid

2978
03:00:18,600 --> 03:00:21,440
Speaker 1: or unism like build power where we have it um

2979
03:00:21,600 --> 03:00:24,000
Speaker 1: and that's the shop for Yeah, and I think, I

2980
03:00:24,040 --> 03:00:26,880
Speaker 1: mean that's something that I've seen. Like in when I

2981
03:00:26,920 --> 03:00:28,560
Speaker 1: was in college there there was a big Grand Student

2982
03:00:28,680 --> 03:00:34,320
Speaker 1: Union organization campaign and it kind of they had this

2983
03:00:34,440 --> 03:00:36,280
Speaker 1: huge problem which was that Okay, well they were trying

2984
03:00:36,280 --> 03:00:38,040
Speaker 1: to do they were trying to get a National Labor

2985
03:00:38,040 --> 03:00:42,920
Speaker 1: Relations Board like vote under Trump. But they couldn't do

2986
03:00:43,040 --> 03:00:45,480
Speaker 1: it because if you know, because because the National Labor

2987
03:00:45,480 --> 03:00:49,640
Speaker 1: Relations Board was controlled by just like the even even

2988
03:00:49,720 --> 03:00:54,440
Speaker 1: by National Labor Relations Board standards like like just unbelievably

2989
03:00:54,480 --> 03:00:58,080
Speaker 1: anti union, like viscerally anti worker forces. It was like, well,

2990
03:00:58,120 --> 03:01:00,360
Speaker 1: if if we try to get a vote, like there's

2991
03:01:00,360 --> 03:01:02,800
Speaker 1: a chance they could just you know, like literally destroy

2992
03:01:02,840 --> 03:01:04,640
Speaker 1: the right like destroy the organizing rights of all grad

2993
03:01:04,680 --> 03:01:07,120
Speaker 1: students of the country. And yeah and you get you

2994
03:01:07,160 --> 03:01:10,360
Speaker 1: get that with the Nissan election or something like that. Yeah, yeah,

2995
03:01:10,800 --> 03:01:14,200
Speaker 1: and definitely delayed it. Yeah, and it's and it's you know,

2996
03:01:14,320 --> 03:01:16,280
Speaker 1: and yeah, I think this this is a trap that

2997
03:01:16,400 --> 03:01:19,120
Speaker 1: like a lot of people, even even people who are

2998
03:01:19,160 --> 03:01:23,200
Speaker 1: really highly organized like get stuck in where you know,

2999
03:01:23,240 --> 03:01:28,080
Speaker 1: and end like eventually, uh, the Grand students just like

3000
03:01:28,320 --> 03:01:31,480
Speaker 1: essentially just started doing walkouts because that was you know,

3001
03:01:31,600 --> 03:01:33,160
Speaker 1: that that was the thing they could do when they

3002
03:01:33,160 --> 03:01:34,880
Speaker 1: start doing their own strikes, even til they weren't like

3003
03:01:35,000 --> 03:01:36,800
Speaker 1: legally recognized, because that was the thing that you could

3004
03:01:36,800 --> 03:01:40,080
Speaker 1: do to you know, actually fight in a terrain that

3005
03:01:40,240 --> 03:01:43,560
Speaker 1: wasn't just inherently rigged against you. So, okay, so you've

3006
03:01:43,600 --> 03:01:46,400
Speaker 1: you've you've you've decided to to take to take a

3007
03:01:46,480 --> 03:01:48,800
Speaker 1: fight in the workplace, like on the shop floor where

3008
03:01:48,879 --> 03:01:50,760
Speaker 1: where you're where you're at your strongest. What does that

3009
03:01:50,800 --> 03:01:56,439
Speaker 1: actually look like in terms of actions, in terms of organization. Yeah, honestly,

3010
03:01:57,560 --> 03:02:08,480
Speaker 1: I think it's simpler and more rudimentary um than one

3011
03:02:08,600 --> 03:02:10,800
Speaker 1: might think or that you might read about and you know,

3012
03:02:11,120 --> 03:02:16,000
Speaker 1: an academic article or something analyzing. I think it comes

3013
03:02:16,040 --> 03:02:22,840
Speaker 1: down to comes down to building community, comes down to

3014
03:02:22,920 --> 03:02:30,080
Speaker 1: building culture, and the principles of the community and culture

3015
03:02:30,160 --> 03:02:32,760
Speaker 1: that you build together with their coworkers is one where

3016
03:02:33,600 --> 03:02:36,880
Speaker 1: we value ourselves and each other. We respect ourselves and

3017
03:02:36,959 --> 03:02:43,000
Speaker 1: each other, and that means that we fight for what

3018
03:02:43,360 --> 03:02:47,959
Speaker 1: is fair in the workplace. That means that we maintain integrity.

3019
03:02:48,440 --> 03:02:53,920
Speaker 1: Anytime a boss disrespects one of us. We need to

3020
03:02:54,000 --> 03:02:56,800
Speaker 1: confront it. We we need to address it. H if

3021
03:02:56,920 --> 03:03:02,880
Speaker 1: not immediately, uh soon after. In numbers, UM, it means

3022
03:03:03,120 --> 03:03:07,120
Speaker 1: if we're getting overworked and underpaid, then we need to

3023
03:03:07,160 --> 03:03:10,960
Speaker 1: strategize and figure out how do we how do we

3024
03:03:11,959 --> 03:03:16,320
Speaker 1: compel the employer to stop overworking and underpaying us, How

3025
03:03:16,360 --> 03:03:19,080
Speaker 1: do we hit them in a place that they are

3026
03:03:19,200 --> 03:03:23,600
Speaker 1: forced to respect? And um as it goes In the

3027
03:03:23,680 --> 03:03:26,199
Speaker 1: world we are today, it's always the numbers. It's always

3028
03:03:26,200 --> 03:03:29,400
Speaker 1: the money, it's always the profit. So UM what that

3029
03:03:29,520 --> 03:03:33,480
Speaker 1: means on the day to day, I mean m Amazon

3030
03:03:33,600 --> 03:03:39,680
Speaker 1: warehouses are a very isolating place. UM. Amazon has basically

3031
03:03:40,200 --> 03:03:44,000
Speaker 1: uh giggified warehouse work. You know, it's like the Uber

3032
03:03:44,160 --> 03:03:46,000
Speaker 1: for warehouse where you can pick up shifts. You can

3033
03:03:46,200 --> 03:03:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, exer shifts, you can take uh furlough days.

3034
03:03:49,480 --> 03:03:53,520
Speaker 1: You know, we called them videos. Um. Many warehouses like

3035
03:03:53,720 --> 03:03:57,960
Speaker 1: your work the ten twelve hour shift and you're for

3036
03:03:58,200 --> 03:04:00,440
Speaker 1: that entire time, you're near one or two be max

3037
03:04:00,480 --> 03:04:03,240
Speaker 1: because they're spaced out and it's loud, and there's machinery

3038
03:04:03,320 --> 03:04:07,760
Speaker 1: and your packing boxes and and so UM. On top

3039
03:04:07,840 --> 03:04:12,959
Speaker 1: of that, you know that everyday dehumanizing. It's also um,

3040
03:04:13,120 --> 03:04:16,240
Speaker 1: you're pushed to work faster and faster. Um, it's difficult

3041
03:04:16,320 --> 03:04:20,080
Speaker 1: to have you know, deep human interaction when you're busting

3042
03:04:20,120 --> 03:04:23,080
Speaker 1: your gass, moving you know, thirty to forty five pound

3043
03:04:23,120 --> 03:04:29,040
Speaker 1: packages as quickly as you can. UM. And so the

3044
03:04:30,200 --> 03:04:33,240
Speaker 1: day to day of building and fighting in the workplace,

3045
03:04:33,400 --> 03:04:37,680
Speaker 1: building community means uh. For example, every week we have

3046
03:04:37,800 --> 03:04:41,560
Speaker 1: a potluck during lunch, bring coworkers together, new coworkers that

3047
03:04:42,000 --> 03:04:44,720
Speaker 1: you know, someone could start last week. That's something that

3048
03:04:44,800 --> 03:04:47,160
Speaker 1: we hear a lot. You know. Part of the challenge,

3049
03:04:47,200 --> 03:04:49,879
Speaker 1: it's the turnover is so high. How can you possibly

3050
03:04:49,959 --> 03:04:53,360
Speaker 1: organize the turnover was so high? Um. That is a

3051
03:04:53,520 --> 03:04:57,520
Speaker 1: specific weapon that boss is used against us. High turnover

3052
03:04:57,600 --> 03:05:00,160
Speaker 1: means what it means we frequently have new cowork is

3053
03:05:00,200 --> 03:05:03,480
Speaker 1: harder to build relationship and organization. It means that the

3054
03:05:03,560 --> 03:05:08,600
Speaker 1: job feels more precarious. So people are always uh afraid

3055
03:05:08,680 --> 03:05:11,240
Speaker 1: that we'll lose our job. You know, we could get fired.

3056
03:05:11,320 --> 03:05:14,720
Speaker 1: We could uh they could change uh staffing numbers, that

3057
03:05:14,760 --> 03:05:18,000
Speaker 1: could close warehouses. It create you know, as a tool

3058
03:05:18,240 --> 03:05:22,240
Speaker 1: higher turnover. They just they turn through workers. Okay, who

3059
03:05:22,440 --> 03:05:24,520
Speaker 1: who's willing to do the most work for the lowest

3060
03:05:24,600 --> 03:05:28,160
Speaker 1: pay and sacrifice the most of their body. Okay. If

3061
03:05:28,280 --> 03:05:30,280
Speaker 1: if you can't handle it, then you quit. If you can,

3062
03:05:30,360 --> 03:05:32,200
Speaker 1: then you stay in here. Okay, let's find the workers

3063
03:05:32,240 --> 03:05:35,200
Speaker 1: in society that are most able to you know, produce

3064
03:05:35,280 --> 03:05:37,000
Speaker 1: the most that so on and so forth and so

3065
03:05:38,120 --> 03:05:42,600
Speaker 1: basic things you know, having every day. Uh. Sometimes it's

3066
03:05:42,640 --> 03:05:46,000
Speaker 1: just like talking with your coworkers is something that is

3067
03:05:47,160 --> 03:05:51,000
Speaker 1: that they try to keep you from doing in the workplace,

3068
03:05:51,480 --> 03:05:57,240
Speaker 1: and by engaging conversation, you're already resisting that isolation, already resisting. UM.

3069
03:05:58,080 --> 03:06:01,080
Speaker 1: Boss is trying to just control everything, keep everyone divided.

3070
03:06:01,440 --> 03:06:06,959
Speaker 1: So weekly pot lunches, UM, having meetings inside or outside

3071
03:06:07,000 --> 03:06:09,240
Speaker 1: of the workplace, coming together. What are the issues that

3072
03:06:09,320 --> 03:06:12,440
Speaker 1: we care about? UM? How do we bring How do

3073
03:06:12,480 --> 03:06:14,680
Speaker 1: we build more unity around these issues that we know

3074
03:06:14,760 --> 03:06:17,600
Speaker 1: many people care about. Isn't doing a petition people sign

3075
03:06:17,680 --> 03:06:20,680
Speaker 1: on together? Are we delivering the petition in the group? UM?

3076
03:06:20,920 --> 03:06:24,760
Speaker 1: If the management doesn't respond, it doesn't give us a

3077
03:06:24,840 --> 03:06:27,600
Speaker 1: reasonable response. How do we escalate? Do we need to

3078
03:06:27,640 --> 03:06:30,280
Speaker 1: walk out? Do we need to take other action? UM?

3079
03:06:31,040 --> 03:06:35,720
Speaker 1: Anytime we see a manager disres disrespecting a coworker, UM,

3080
03:06:36,160 --> 03:06:38,440
Speaker 1: how do we post up next to them, pull out

3081
03:06:38,480 --> 03:06:41,760
Speaker 1: a notepads, start taking notes ask questions, Um, we're a witness,

3082
03:06:41,920 --> 03:06:43,520
Speaker 1: you know, how do we defend each other in all

3083
03:06:43,600 --> 03:06:47,000
Speaker 1: of these basic ways? How are we addressing um and

3084
03:06:47,160 --> 03:06:51,000
Speaker 1: being honest with ourselves and each other of uh? Just

3085
03:06:51,240 --> 03:06:53,880
Speaker 1: the depth of disrespect when they're waiting for us outside

3086
03:06:53,920 --> 03:06:56,039
Speaker 1: of the bathrooms to write us up for time off task,

3087
03:06:56,120 --> 03:06:58,640
Speaker 1: when they're telling us to work faster when you know

3088
03:06:58,879 --> 03:07:01,160
Speaker 1: we're already on a ten hour shift. We're on our

3089
03:07:01,440 --> 03:07:03,480
Speaker 1: ten of the ten hour shift. They sent a bunch

3090
03:07:03,520 --> 03:07:06,040
Speaker 1: of people home and are forcing us to finish all

3091
03:07:06,120 --> 03:07:08,400
Speaker 1: the work for a small number of people. Do we

3092
03:07:08,520 --> 03:07:11,400
Speaker 1: continue putting up with it? Or do we immediately walk out?

3093
03:07:11,760 --> 03:07:13,320
Speaker 1: Or do we talk with their co works about what

3094
03:07:13,400 --> 03:07:17,240
Speaker 1: we want to do? Just being mindful of being honest

3095
03:07:17,440 --> 03:07:22,080
Speaker 1: about what how we are being treated? What is fairwood

3096
03:07:22,160 --> 03:07:28,959
Speaker 1: is not in taking the necessary action to uh demand

3097
03:07:29,440 --> 03:07:32,600
Speaker 1: the the fairness to respect that each of us deserve.

3098
03:07:32,959 --> 03:07:38,080
Speaker 1: I think like that's what the workplace struggle looks like. UM,

3099
03:07:39,600 --> 03:07:41,520
Speaker 1: I don't yeah, And I think it comes down to

3100
03:07:41,920 --> 03:07:45,279
Speaker 1: building that community um with each other and then building

3101
03:07:45,320 --> 03:07:48,440
Speaker 1: the culture of not putting up with bullshit, defending each other,

3102
03:07:48,840 --> 03:07:51,920
Speaker 1: looking out for each other. Um, there's them there's an

3103
03:07:52,080 --> 03:07:55,200
Speaker 1: us UM. Make sure you know inside you're on UM,

3104
03:07:56,400 --> 03:07:59,400
Speaker 1: and you know, I think that's the that's the foundation

3105
03:07:59,480 --> 03:08:03,600
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah. I think that the aspect especially of

3106
03:08:03,760 --> 03:08:05,840
Speaker 1: culture building is really interesting to me because I think

3107
03:08:05,879 --> 03:08:11,200
Speaker 1: that's something that's not really talked about much with with

3108
03:08:11,480 --> 03:08:15,320
Speaker 1: with organizing efforts in both because you know, a lot

3109
03:08:15,400 --> 03:08:18,560
Speaker 1: of like a lot of what is discussed with you know,

3110
03:08:18,640 --> 03:08:22,119
Speaker 1: it's it's especially not in academic circles. When when when

3111
03:08:22,160 --> 03:08:23,840
Speaker 1: you're when you're just you know, when when when you

3112
03:08:23,879 --> 03:08:26,039
Speaker 1: have people writing about union organizing, and when even when

3113
03:08:26,200 --> 03:08:30,520
Speaker 1: sort of like other union organizers are writing about unions,

3114
03:08:30,560 --> 03:08:33,879
Speaker 1: is that, Yeah, you don't hear much about the cultural aspects,

3115
03:08:33,920 --> 03:08:37,840
Speaker 1: and you don't hear much about just resisting the actual

3116
03:08:38,080 --> 03:08:42,920
Speaker 1: like psychological degradation that you get. And that strikes me

3117
03:08:43,120 --> 03:08:45,600
Speaker 1: I think also as as yeah, as as you've been

3118
03:08:45,600 --> 03:08:50,120
Speaker 1: saying something that's that's very important not discussed enough as

3119
03:08:50,720 --> 03:08:52,560
Speaker 1: I mean both as just something that that is a

3120
03:08:52,680 --> 03:08:56,520
Speaker 1: goal in itself, like not having this sort of you know,

3121
03:08:57,120 --> 03:09:01,760
Speaker 1: not not having the just sort of horrible all de

3122
03:09:01,920 --> 03:09:04,600
Speaker 1: meeting and abusive sort of tyranny of the boss is

3123
03:09:04,680 --> 03:09:10,000
Speaker 1: just like existing as this kind of like normal force.

3124
03:09:12,240 --> 03:09:14,400
Speaker 1: But then also like yeah that that this destructs me.

3125
03:09:14,480 --> 03:09:16,720
Speaker 1: Something that that is really important for anyone who's who's

3126
03:09:16,920 --> 03:09:22,080
Speaker 1: thinking about organizing is you know, getting getting people getting

3127
03:09:22,080 --> 03:09:29,320
Speaker 1: people to organize around just like how get get people

3128
03:09:29,320 --> 03:09:32,960
Speaker 1: to organize around just the sort of like the psychological decordation,

3129
03:09:34,680 --> 03:09:37,960
Speaker 1: like I think is really important because otherwise, you know,

3130
03:09:38,160 --> 03:09:39,960
Speaker 1: you get you can get you can just get these

3131
03:09:40,000 --> 03:09:42,520
Speaker 1: cultures where like I mean, I remember I had a

3132
03:09:42,600 --> 03:09:44,560
Speaker 1: job where I was in like we had a union,

3133
03:09:44,680 --> 03:09:46,720
Speaker 1: but like it didn't I mean I was so I

3134
03:09:46,840 --> 03:09:48,240
Speaker 1: was I was a temp workers where I wasn't in

3135
03:09:48,280 --> 03:09:50,160
Speaker 1: the union, like they had a union, and it just

3136
03:09:50,200 --> 03:09:53,920
Speaker 1: sort of didn't do anything, and no one like you know,

3137
03:09:53,959 --> 03:09:55,240
Speaker 1: and this this is a real source that sort of

3138
03:09:55,280 --> 03:09:57,320
Speaker 1: right reing resentment because the union just didn't do anything,

3139
03:09:57,400 --> 03:10:01,440
Speaker 1: and then you know everyone's getting treated terribly like by

3140
03:10:02,320 --> 03:10:04,320
Speaker 1: by the bosses and by sort upper management and no one.

3141
03:10:04,440 --> 03:10:07,640
Speaker 1: But it never even like it never really like is

3142
03:10:07,680 --> 03:10:09,520
Speaker 1: on a culture level, never occurred to them to sort

3143
03:10:09,560 --> 03:10:11,520
Speaker 1: of like use the union for that, because that's not

3144
03:10:11,680 --> 03:10:13,720
Speaker 1: really what the union was there for. It was just

3145
03:10:13,840 --> 03:10:16,120
Speaker 1: to sort of like it was just this thing that

3146
03:10:16,200 --> 03:10:20,119
Speaker 1: existed and like occasionally when contracts came up, it would appear,

3147
03:10:21,280 --> 03:10:22,960
Speaker 1: and I guess, on on on that note, one of

3148
03:10:23,000 --> 03:10:25,680
Speaker 1: the things I was also wondering is what sort of

3149
03:10:26,959 --> 03:10:29,160
Speaker 1: so for for for for people who are who are

3150
03:10:29,240 --> 03:10:32,080
Speaker 1: interested in their own workplaces and starting doing this kind

3151
03:10:32,120 --> 03:10:35,000
Speaker 1: of organizing and starting to sort of, I mean, just

3152
03:10:35,200 --> 03:10:37,920
Speaker 1: fight back against their bosses in ways that don't you know,

3153
03:10:38,680 --> 03:10:41,440
Speaker 1: either because they don't want to or because they literally can't,

3154
03:10:41,480 --> 03:10:43,200
Speaker 1: which I think is is true of a lot of

3155
03:10:43,280 --> 03:10:46,360
Speaker 1: people like who who want to organize outside of the

3156
03:10:46,360 --> 03:10:48,360
Speaker 1: business union model. How how do you how did you

3157
03:10:48,560 --> 03:10:54,200
Speaker 1: all start organizing like this? And what what sort of

3158
03:10:55,760 --> 03:10:58,760
Speaker 1: immediate lessons do you think people should should take away

3159
03:10:58,840 --> 03:11:01,680
Speaker 1: and should sort of bringing bring into their own organizing

3160
03:11:01,720 --> 03:11:08,840
Speaker 1: in the workplace. Yeah, Um, I think at the base

3161
03:11:09,160 --> 03:11:14,040
Speaker 1: of the is that, um, I guess I mentioned something

3162
03:11:14,160 --> 03:11:18,200
Speaker 1: like this earlier, but that we we can organize ourselves.

3163
03:11:19,240 --> 03:11:21,560
Speaker 1: We can. You know, if you're talking if you have

3164
03:11:21,680 --> 03:11:26,360
Speaker 1: two coworkers that you're friends with, and um, you say like, hey,

3165
03:11:26,600 --> 03:11:29,960
Speaker 1: let's meet up them talk about what's going on at work,

3166
03:11:30,320 --> 03:11:35,879
Speaker 1: you're starting to organize, you know, UM. And I think

3167
03:11:37,520 --> 03:11:43,360
Speaker 1: part of part of the damage, part of the harm

3168
03:11:43,840 --> 03:11:51,680
Speaker 1: that business unionism has done. And also just I don't know,

3169
03:11:52,120 --> 03:11:59,920
Speaker 1: hierarchical organizing Umlinsky and organizing UM. I think they're all

3170
03:12:00,160 --> 03:12:06,200
Speaker 1: part of uh sort of connected school of thought where

3171
03:12:06,280 --> 03:12:10,160
Speaker 1: it's like organizing and you know, building an union is

3172
03:12:10,200 --> 03:12:12,800
Speaker 1: something that like you need to be like professionals too,

3173
03:12:12,959 --> 03:12:16,520
Speaker 1: or you know, they're experts at it, the experts, and

3174
03:12:16,600 --> 03:12:18,840
Speaker 1: then if you're not an expert, then you need to

3175
03:12:18,879 --> 03:12:21,600
Speaker 1: consult an expert to figure out how to do it. Um.

3176
03:12:22,280 --> 03:12:25,640
Speaker 1: And I think that's bullshit. I think it's if you're

3177
03:12:25,640 --> 03:12:29,520
Speaker 1: a worker, then uh, you can be a union organizer.

3178
03:12:30,040 --> 03:12:32,640
Speaker 1: If you're a worker and you talk with you know,

3179
03:12:32,800 --> 03:12:35,680
Speaker 1: another worker about what's going on in your workplace, like

3180
03:12:35,800 --> 03:12:39,280
Speaker 1: you're already starting to organize. Um. Like I said earlier,

3181
03:12:39,280 --> 03:12:41,600
Speaker 1: if you're calling a meeting, if you're you know, and

3182
03:12:42,480 --> 03:12:46,519
Speaker 1: workers do this all the time, confronting management about disrespect,

3183
03:12:46,600 --> 03:12:49,800
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's very much more frequently on

3184
03:12:49,879 --> 03:12:53,279
Speaker 1: an individual basis, But it's a matter of like connecting

3185
03:12:53,320 --> 03:12:56,959
Speaker 1: your issue with a couple other coworkers and then figure out, okay, well, um,

3186
03:12:57,560 --> 03:12:59,640
Speaker 1: what what's our next step? But we need more numbers?

3187
03:12:59,760 --> 03:13:02,920
Speaker 1: How we you know, how do we build more numbers. Uh,

3188
03:13:03,040 --> 03:13:05,000
Speaker 1: if each of us can invite one more person, that

3189
03:13:05,080 --> 03:13:08,320
Speaker 1: six people. If you know, if the six of us

3190
03:13:08,440 --> 03:13:11,560
Speaker 1: can are starting a petition, we could probably get you know,

3191
03:13:11,720 --> 03:13:14,160
Speaker 1: signature is a fifty or sixty, you know, like it's

3192
03:13:14,240 --> 03:13:17,120
Speaker 1: it's step by step and saying if we want to

3193
03:13:17,200 --> 03:13:20,960
Speaker 1: build organization, we can do it from the bottom up.

3194
03:13:21,120 --> 03:13:25,320
Speaker 1: We can start it UM and we can figure this out.

3195
03:13:25,560 --> 03:13:30,720
Speaker 1: I mean, every even within the same company, even within

3196
03:13:30,800 --> 03:13:33,200
Speaker 1: the same company in the same city there. You know,

3197
03:13:33,320 --> 03:13:39,000
Speaker 1: I work at UM a delivery station, Engage Park, other

3198
03:13:39,080 --> 03:13:42,200
Speaker 1: delivery stations in the city of Chicago have a completely

3199
03:13:42,320 --> 03:13:47,280
Speaker 1: different culture, you know, the neighborhood that it's in, the

3200
03:13:48,280 --> 03:13:52,400
Speaker 1: workers that are the bosses, you know. And so even

3201
03:13:52,720 --> 03:13:55,840
Speaker 1: in the same company, the same type of workplace in

3202
03:13:55,920 --> 03:13:58,720
Speaker 1: the same city, it's gonna be a different story for

3203
03:13:58,879 --> 03:14:03,760
Speaker 1: how that work place is gonna you know, get united,

3204
03:14:04,280 --> 03:14:08,560
Speaker 1: come together, UM, figure things out, build organization. And it's

3205
03:14:08,600 --> 03:14:16,120
Speaker 1: just anyone there that is thinking about that that that

3206
03:14:16,600 --> 03:14:20,160
Speaker 1: kind of just begins the process of putting together the basics.

3207
03:14:20,640 --> 03:14:22,520
Speaker 1: All right, we need to start building up some numbers.

3208
03:14:22,600 --> 03:14:25,199
Speaker 1: We need to start having you know, addressing some issues

3209
03:14:25,400 --> 03:14:28,240
Speaker 1: that people care about and there's always I mean, there's

3210
03:14:28,280 --> 03:14:30,959
Speaker 1: always the you know, overworked and underpaid and that's gonna

3211
03:14:30,959 --> 03:14:33,120
Speaker 1: exist everywhere. And can always go after those issues, but

3212
03:14:33,200 --> 03:14:35,080
Speaker 1: frequently they're small ones. Like our first issue was a

3213
03:14:35,120 --> 03:14:39,240
Speaker 1: water petition uh or or or or at was access

3214
03:14:39,320 --> 03:14:41,440
Speaker 1: to water UM and this is how we started as

3215
03:14:41,480 --> 03:14:46,720
Speaker 1: an organization UM. Basically, they were taking away bottled water.

3216
03:14:46,840 --> 03:14:48,760
Speaker 1: They said we were leaving around too much garbage. They're

3217
03:14:48,760 --> 03:14:50,560
Speaker 1: saying bottled water is only there for the summer, and

3218
03:14:50,600 --> 03:14:53,000
Speaker 1: now that's not the summer. That whatever. They're trying to

3219
03:14:53,240 --> 03:14:55,800
Speaker 1: save a few dollars a day on bottled water to

3220
03:14:56,200 --> 03:15:02,400
Speaker 1: make us, you know, work without it UM. And we said,

3221
03:15:03,000 --> 03:15:05,960
Speaker 1: that's fucked up. We're doing warehouse work like this, hard

3222
03:15:06,040 --> 03:15:08,320
Speaker 1: manual labor and it's hot in here. We need a

3223
03:15:08,360 --> 03:15:12,600
Speaker 1: bottle water. It's you know, not just that broken, unfiltered

3224
03:15:12,640 --> 03:15:15,200
Speaker 1: fountain across the warehouse that you can't even get to

3225
03:15:15,320 --> 03:15:20,640
Speaker 1: while you're working. UM. And so, uh, just a few

3226
03:15:20,680 --> 03:15:22,600
Speaker 1: of us that we're talking at break it was like, okay,

3227
03:15:22,760 --> 03:15:24,960
Speaker 1: well there's six of us here. Well we're kind of

3228
03:15:25,120 --> 03:15:27,600
Speaker 1: you know, this is the this is the break room

3229
03:15:27,640 --> 03:15:30,600
Speaker 1: at work. They're like managers walking around their cameras in here,

3230
03:15:30,720 --> 03:15:34,200
Speaker 1: like let's meet outside, uh and figure this out. UM.

3231
03:15:34,440 --> 03:15:36,480
Speaker 1: So you know, we we met at a at a

3232
03:15:36,520 --> 03:15:42,119
Speaker 1: Crispy Cream down on like ninety three, um, and uh

3233
03:15:42,320 --> 03:15:43,920
Speaker 1: we just basically said like, well, how are we gonna

3234
03:15:43,959 --> 03:15:46,600
Speaker 1: get this water? We've been asking management? Uh, you know

3235
03:15:46,680 --> 03:15:48,520
Speaker 1: they've given us the same reasons. We need to do

3236
03:15:48,640 --> 03:15:52,160
Speaker 1: something bigger that that they can't ignore. Um, how about

3237
03:15:52,160 --> 03:15:55,440
Speaker 1: a petition, and so we just drafted it. The six

3238
03:15:55,520 --> 03:15:57,760
Speaker 1: of us, we drafted it. We went around. We got

3239
03:15:58,120 --> 03:16:01,520
Speaker 1: hundred fifty signature. Is I think from our coworkers are

3240
03:16:01,600 --> 03:16:04,560
Speaker 1: just like basic commands. We need bottle water stocked every day.

3241
03:16:04,600 --> 03:16:06,320
Speaker 1: They need to be you know, filters need to be clean.

3242
03:16:06,400 --> 03:16:08,760
Speaker 1: We need to get be able to take a break

3243
03:16:08,800 --> 03:16:13,800
Speaker 1: to get this water. Um. And we delivered uh, the

3244
03:16:13,959 --> 03:16:17,400
Speaker 1: hundred fifty signatures to management. UM. I think it was

3245
03:16:17,480 --> 03:16:19,959
Speaker 1: within thirty or forty minutes. They drove to a grocery store,

3246
03:16:20,200 --> 03:16:23,119
Speaker 1: bought you know, went to the nearest pizza bought every

3247
03:16:23,879 --> 03:16:25,600
Speaker 1: case of bottle. While they have brought it and passed

3248
03:16:25,640 --> 03:16:27,880
Speaker 1: it out to everyone, We're like, oh, okay, like that

3249
03:16:28,120 --> 03:16:30,080
Speaker 1: was you know, people like that's just hey, we gotta

3250
03:16:30,120 --> 03:16:31,680
Speaker 1: do a petition for this thing we gotta do, you

3251
03:16:31,760 --> 03:16:35,120
Speaker 1: know what we should? Probably it was that I don't

3252
03:16:35,120 --> 03:16:37,600
Speaker 1: want to say easy, because it's definitely not easy to like,

3253
03:16:37,920 --> 03:16:42,280
Speaker 1: but the steps, the step by step of like how

3254
03:16:42,440 --> 03:16:45,600
Speaker 1: do you begin, how do you get something started? How

3255
03:16:45,680 --> 03:16:50,640
Speaker 1: do you start building some munity? Um? These are steps

3256
03:16:50,680 --> 03:16:53,520
Speaker 1: that we have taken. These are you know, what we

3257
03:16:53,760 --> 03:17:00,160
Speaker 1: think is can be applicable um with everyone's own kind

3258
03:17:00,160 --> 03:17:04,160
Speaker 1: of personal tweaks based on you know, your own workplace, UM,

3259
03:17:04,360 --> 03:17:07,560
Speaker 1: to start getting something going from more coworkers to start realizing,

3260
03:17:07,879 --> 03:17:10,960
Speaker 1: oh yeah, like we should be in more control of

3261
03:17:11,040 --> 03:17:13,280
Speaker 1: what's happening around here because we're the ones that are

3262
03:17:13,320 --> 03:17:15,880
Speaker 1: doing all the work. We're the ones that are suffering

3263
03:17:15,920 --> 03:17:19,039
Speaker 1: the most from it in our bodies getting ground down

3264
03:17:19,200 --> 03:17:22,080
Speaker 1: from doing it. And so um, yeah, I think that

3265
03:17:22,520 --> 03:17:24,280
Speaker 1: I think I look back to a previous question to

3266
03:17:24,440 --> 03:17:27,120
Speaker 1: but like how we started, how you engage in the struggle,

3267
03:17:27,680 --> 03:17:31,959
Speaker 1: and just like what that looks like for building building

3268
03:17:32,040 --> 03:17:34,840
Speaker 1: something up from nothing to something like that's what that's

3269
03:17:34,879 --> 03:17:37,480
Speaker 1: what we you know what I mean, that's what we did. Yeah,

3270
03:17:37,520 --> 03:17:40,279
Speaker 1: from what I've seen, you all have been extremely effective,

3271
03:17:41,040 --> 03:17:45,360
Speaker 1: like at at getting management to recognize it but essentially

3272
03:17:45,400 --> 03:17:48,360
Speaker 1: getting them to like a seed to your demands because

3273
03:17:49,320 --> 03:17:54,320
Speaker 1: like this, this this kind of organizing like so solid

3274
03:17:54,560 --> 03:17:55,640
Speaker 1: you need what what I'm trying to say, this is

3275
03:17:55,720 --> 03:17:57,960
Speaker 1: all there. The unison of works. Like it's not like

3276
03:17:58,840 --> 03:18:00,880
Speaker 1: like and you know in yeah, it's it's a thing.

3277
03:18:01,040 --> 03:18:02,360
Speaker 1: I think one of one of the things you're talking

3278
03:18:02,360 --> 03:18:05,960
Speaker 1: about it is like, yeah, it's like when like when

3279
03:18:06,120 --> 03:18:09,400
Speaker 1: you win, even on something fairly small, right, and you

3280
03:18:09,720 --> 03:18:14,320
Speaker 1: can show people that this works and that like you know,

3281
03:18:14,360 --> 03:18:16,320
Speaker 1: if if, if, if you actually come together on something,

3282
03:18:16,360 --> 03:18:18,000
Speaker 1: you can force management to do stuff like I think

3283
03:18:18,120 --> 03:18:24,080
Speaker 1: that also become becomes an important sort of like I

3284
03:18:24,120 --> 03:18:25,840
Speaker 1: don't know if catalyst is the right word, but it

3285
03:18:26,160 --> 03:18:33,000
Speaker 1: becomes it becomes becomes an engine that like feeds itself definitely.

3286
03:18:33,440 --> 03:18:37,120
Speaker 1: I mean, especially for a big company like Amazon, Like

3287
03:18:39,560 --> 03:18:44,360
Speaker 1: I think the most common perspective, at least at the

3288
03:18:44,440 --> 03:18:46,600
Speaker 1: start is like, this is such a big company, Like

3289
03:18:46,640 --> 03:18:49,000
Speaker 1: what could we possibly do? They have a thousand warehouses,

3290
03:18:49,120 --> 03:18:51,360
Speaker 1: like what you know, they could choose to close one

3291
03:18:51,400 --> 03:18:53,560
Speaker 1: and open another one, you know, they do this, or

3292
03:18:54,040 --> 03:18:58,119
Speaker 1: they could suddenly you know and with two weeks notice,

3293
03:18:58,240 --> 03:19:01,440
Speaker 1: like change the schedule from an even time to overnight time,

3294
03:19:01,520 --> 03:19:04,080
Speaker 1: which is what they did to us. Basically, UM, what

3295
03:19:04,200 --> 03:19:06,560
Speaker 1: can we possibly do? And so you know, but I

3296
03:19:06,640 --> 03:19:11,960
Speaker 1: think it's like the moment, it's like there's a a

3297
03:19:12,160 --> 03:19:16,240
Speaker 1: cliff or what do you call, like the watershed a point,

3298
03:19:16,360 --> 03:19:19,120
Speaker 1: like the moment you kind of take that first collective

3299
03:19:19,160 --> 03:19:22,320
Speaker 1: action and then get what you want. UM. It's like,

3300
03:19:22,640 --> 03:19:25,720
Speaker 1: oh wait, it's not as like within this space like

3301
03:19:25,840 --> 03:19:30,040
Speaker 1: we can actually make our lives a lot better pretty quickly. Yeah,

3302
03:19:30,959 --> 03:19:35,280
Speaker 1: we just come together and do it ourselves and recognize

3303
03:19:35,360 --> 03:19:40,640
Speaker 1: the power that we have. UM. And I think it's

3304
03:19:40,720 --> 03:19:47,880
Speaker 1: like mhm. That's one of the reasons why it works

3305
03:19:48,120 --> 03:19:55,920
Speaker 1: so well is because it is different from the mainstream approach,

3306
03:19:56,480 --> 03:20:01,640
Speaker 1: which UM bosses in these companies understand very well and

3307
03:20:01,879 --> 03:20:04,760
Speaker 1: can easily maneuver around, such as, oh if we do

3308
03:20:04,920 --> 03:20:08,040
Speaker 1: if if one of our managers does something wrong, what

3309
03:20:08,120 --> 03:20:10,680
Speaker 1: will happen next is we'll receive one of our lawyers,

3310
03:20:10,720 --> 03:20:13,320
Speaker 1: will receive a grievance from one of their representative lawyers,

3311
03:20:13,360 --> 03:20:15,560
Speaker 1: and you know, this business union will have this many

3312
03:20:15,640 --> 03:20:17,560
Speaker 1: months respond and then we can do this and then

3313
03:20:18,040 --> 03:20:20,680
Speaker 1: you know, uh, we'll do this paperwork and have this

3314
03:20:20,800 --> 03:20:23,360
Speaker 1: legal back and forth and then maybe we'll address this

3315
03:20:23,440 --> 03:20:26,840
Speaker 1: issue six to twelve months down the line. UM, no disruption,

3316
03:20:27,240 --> 03:20:30,400
Speaker 1: you know, nothing to worry about. UM. Let the bosses

3317
03:20:30,480 --> 03:20:32,520
Speaker 1: run amuck and we'll get a six to twelve month

3318
03:20:32,560 --> 03:20:34,880
Speaker 1: ad start to you know, and maybe get a slap

3319
03:20:34,920 --> 03:20:36,280
Speaker 1: on the wrist and a fix wherever you need to

3320
03:20:36,400 --> 03:20:39,680
Speaker 1: or pay a small fine. UM. As opposed to that's

3321
03:20:39,720 --> 03:20:42,680
Speaker 1: business unions, like as opposed to Southern unism, where it's

3322
03:20:42,720 --> 03:20:46,040
Speaker 1: like they just disrespected us in a way that like

3323
03:20:46,400 --> 03:20:48,840
Speaker 1: we're not trying to put up with, like we are hurting.

3324
03:20:49,320 --> 03:20:52,119
Speaker 1: We can't even finish the shift without hurting ourselves more.

3325
03:20:52,440 --> 03:20:55,800
Speaker 1: We're just gonna group up the walk out right now. UM,

3326
03:20:56,760 --> 03:20:58,920
Speaker 1: they're gonna figure out, they're gonna have to figure out

3327
03:20:58,959 --> 03:21:02,600
Speaker 1: how to get the rest of these packages out without us. UM.

3328
03:21:02,920 --> 03:21:06,560
Speaker 1: And when we come back tomorrow, uh, we'll see, we'll

3329
03:21:06,600 --> 03:21:09,280
Speaker 1: see if they want to keep treating us the same way. UM.

3330
03:21:10,120 --> 03:21:13,000
Speaker 1: And so it's like to me, you know, we we've

3331
03:21:13,040 --> 03:21:19,600
Speaker 1: had basic basic management confrontations where either immediately uh you know,

3332
03:21:19,680 --> 03:21:22,240
Speaker 1: they were understaffing and we grouped up rolled into office

3333
03:21:22,320 --> 03:21:23,880
Speaker 1: just like with seven of us, not even like the

3334
03:21:23,920 --> 03:21:27,600
Speaker 1: whole shift. Um, seven out of fifty people rolling off

3335
03:21:27,640 --> 03:21:29,600
Speaker 1: and said, you have too few people on the lines.

3336
03:21:29,680 --> 03:21:31,760
Speaker 1: You're you need an add extra person. We've been asking

3337
03:21:31,800 --> 03:21:35,200
Speaker 1: you have it. Um, we've folded our arms. Within five minutes,

3338
03:21:35,200 --> 03:21:37,040
Speaker 1: they send an extra person over there. They're working the

3339
03:21:37,120 --> 03:21:41,240
Speaker 1: rest of the shift. UM. In the in the business

3340
03:21:41,320 --> 03:21:43,720
Speaker 1: union approach, like I don't even know, Like how you

3341
03:21:43,840 --> 03:21:47,039
Speaker 1: followed you know, understaffing grievance, Like what are the details?

3342
03:21:47,080 --> 03:21:49,680
Speaker 1: How does that happen? Does a union representative have to

3343
03:21:49,760 --> 03:21:52,880
Speaker 1: be contacted and then negotiate in some way? Um? But

3344
03:21:53,120 --> 03:21:56,720
Speaker 1: that like, let's just address us right now and fix it. Um.

3345
03:21:56,920 --> 03:22:00,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to wait for some outside activity. Let's

3346
03:22:00,360 --> 03:22:03,800
Speaker 1: just improve our working conditions right now, like confronting and

3347
03:22:03,879 --> 03:22:07,320
Speaker 1: addressing it. UM. I think it's just you know, that's

3348
03:22:07,360 --> 03:22:14,080
Speaker 1: something that Um, the bosses are less it's less predictable

3349
03:22:14,160 --> 03:22:16,280
Speaker 1: for them, it's less in their control, it's less in

3350
03:22:16,360 --> 03:22:20,800
Speaker 1: their wheelhouse. UM. And I think that's a cury reason

3351
03:22:20,879 --> 03:22:23,280
Speaker 1: why it works better. Yeah, And I think one of

3352
03:22:23,360 --> 03:22:24,840
Speaker 1: one of the things the thing this reminds me of.

3353
03:22:25,120 --> 03:22:26,360
Speaker 1: It reminds me of the kind of stuff that you

3354
03:22:26,440 --> 03:22:28,360
Speaker 1: needs used to do when they were strong, Like it

3355
03:22:28,400 --> 03:22:30,160
Speaker 1: reminds me of like yeah, you're you're like c I

3356
03:22:30,280 --> 03:22:32,400
Speaker 1: O like sit down, strike, right, It's like, well, okay,

3357
03:22:32,480 --> 03:22:34,119
Speaker 1: if if the manager is something we didn't we don't

3358
03:22:34,160 --> 03:22:36,560
Speaker 1: like so and blows a whistle, everyone sits down, and

3359
03:22:36,720 --> 03:22:39,680
Speaker 1: like it's like it's that that kind of not just

3360
03:22:39,800 --> 03:22:41,560
Speaker 1: sort of like way to go to the legal channels,

3361
03:22:41,640 --> 03:22:47,040
Speaker 1: but just just like im immediately taking action is like

3362
03:22:47,160 --> 03:22:49,039
Speaker 1: it's it's something that it's like it's it's something that works,

3363
03:22:49,080 --> 03:22:50,800
Speaker 1: and it's you know, like that that's that's the kind

3364
03:22:50,840 --> 03:22:53,440
Speaker 1: of stuff that like build you built the original like

3365
03:22:53,560 --> 03:22:55,680
Speaker 1: labor movement. And it's really interesting to me that, like

3366
03:22:56,000 --> 03:22:59,080
Speaker 1: because because I think there's a lot of like I

3367
03:22:59,120 --> 03:23:00,720
Speaker 1: think a lot of people look back at that era

3368
03:23:01,240 --> 03:23:03,480
Speaker 1: sort of like nostalgically and go like, well, Okay, if

3369
03:23:03,560 --> 03:23:05,360
Speaker 1: unions were stronger, we could do this, but like that's

3370
03:23:05,400 --> 03:23:08,600
Speaker 1: not really true. You can't actually just like like you

3371
03:23:08,920 --> 03:23:11,560
Speaker 1: can do the same things that like, you know, you're

3372
03:23:11,600 --> 03:23:14,240
Speaker 1: like nineteen thirties c I O was doing like and

3373
03:23:14,400 --> 03:23:16,520
Speaker 1: and and if you know and you don't you don't

3374
03:23:16,640 --> 03:23:20,320
Speaker 1: need the kind of institutional backing that that those people had.

3375
03:23:20,440 --> 03:23:23,440
Speaker 1: If if like if if you're organized enough in your

3376
03:23:23,480 --> 03:23:25,800
Speaker 1: in your specific location. I think that's a really interesting

3377
03:23:26,760 --> 03:23:28,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm curious if you agree with us.

3378
03:23:28,360 --> 03:23:30,160
Speaker 1: It seems like a skord of interesting lesson about like

3379
03:23:30,280 --> 03:23:36,280
Speaker 1: what happens to the labor movement, where like the more

3380
03:23:36,520 --> 03:23:39,920
Speaker 1: the more you get into this sort of like okay, well,

3381
03:23:40,040 --> 03:23:42,640
Speaker 1: the the union is now two lawyers sitting down with

3382
03:23:42,720 --> 03:23:45,800
Speaker 1: each other, right, the what what you're doing basically is

3383
03:23:45,840 --> 03:23:47,200
Speaker 1: and then like this is the this is this is

3384
03:23:47,200 --> 03:23:49,760
Speaker 1: explicitly what the National Labor Relations Act was, right, Like

3385
03:23:50,120 --> 03:23:52,160
Speaker 1: it was an attempt to get labor, labor and capital

3386
03:23:52,240 --> 03:23:54,080
Speaker 1: sit down at the table and stop fighting so that

3387
03:23:54,280 --> 03:23:57,200
Speaker 1: they could, like you know, basically Selft production could go on.

3388
03:23:57,400 --> 03:23:59,600
Speaker 1: And like some sometimes sometimes that that you know, sometimes

3389
03:23:59,640 --> 03:24:01,560
Speaker 1: a favor the union. Right, sometimes you'd have the president

3390
03:24:01,720 --> 03:24:04,280
Speaker 1: be like like the actual like US president will be like, okay,

3391
03:24:04,959 --> 03:24:07,640
Speaker 1: you come you like steal company. You have to like

3392
03:24:08,400 --> 03:24:11,240
Speaker 1: give workers what they're asking for because our steel production

3393
03:24:11,280 --> 03:24:14,680
Speaker 1: shut down, right, But like you know, the problem with

3394
03:24:14,760 --> 03:24:18,160
Speaker 1: that is that it's based on like it's based on

3395
03:24:18,320 --> 03:24:22,039
Speaker 1: at all costs trying to sort of preserve like it's

3396
03:24:22,040 --> 03:24:23,840
Speaker 1: based on cost like trying to preserve the labor peace.

3397
03:24:23,920 --> 03:24:26,280
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean there's reasons for that too, Like, yeah,

3398
03:24:26,360 --> 03:24:30,080
Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna like like obviously there's there's any

3399
03:24:30,120 --> 03:24:32,600
Speaker 1: time you take a direct action, there's a risk and yeah,

3400
03:24:32,680 --> 03:24:35,400
Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna like, you know, I'm not gonna

3401
03:24:35,440 --> 03:24:39,120
Speaker 1: be like like it's it's hard to be really mad

3402
03:24:39,360 --> 03:24:41,840
Speaker 1: at people who don't want to go on strike because

3403
03:24:42,120 --> 03:24:44,640
Speaker 1: they don't like because you know, how how am I

3404
03:24:44,640 --> 03:24:48,240
Speaker 1: going to defeat my family, etcetera, etcetera. But like, you know,

3405
03:24:48,640 --> 03:24:53,240
Speaker 1: bringing like having that kind of militancy in the workplace,

3406
03:24:53,840 --> 03:24:56,800
Speaker 1: just you know, without without any kind of formal recognition,

3407
03:24:58,000 --> 03:25:00,280
Speaker 1: I think is an extremely powerful tactic. And is I

3408
03:25:00,360 --> 03:25:02,840
Speaker 1: mean literally how the original labor movement like got built.

3409
03:25:05,720 --> 03:25:08,920
Speaker 1: It's difficult though, and it can be scary, you know.

3410
03:25:09,080 --> 03:25:14,720
Speaker 1: And it's like I think you you posed kind of

3411
03:25:14,800 --> 03:25:19,840
Speaker 1: the question or or or kind of questioning the idea

3412
03:25:19,920 --> 03:25:24,160
Speaker 1: like where did how did the labor movement get to

3413
03:25:24,280 --> 03:25:29,240
Speaker 1: where it's at if the origins were more conscious um

3414
03:25:29,320 --> 03:25:36,320
Speaker 1: in the ways that you've been describing UM. I think that. Um.

3415
03:25:37,640 --> 03:25:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's definitely, you know, the risk is

3416
03:25:41,560 --> 03:25:47,080
Speaker 1: always there. You're always confronting the power I mean in

3417
03:25:47,200 --> 03:25:49,800
Speaker 1: the workplace when it comes down to it like that. Obviously,

3418
03:25:49,879 --> 03:25:55,480
Speaker 1: the power dynamics shift, and it's more complex than you know,

3419
03:25:55,600 --> 03:25:58,680
Speaker 1: bosses have more power than workers unless workers organized, and

3420
03:25:58,720 --> 03:26:01,280
Speaker 1: workers have more power than bosses. That is true. And

3421
03:26:01,440 --> 03:26:04,400
Speaker 1: also for example, on the day to day, you know,

3422
03:26:04,560 --> 03:26:09,200
Speaker 1: the boss can fire anyone and then you're you know,

3423
03:26:10,560 --> 03:26:14,760
Speaker 1: however you end up dealing with it, Uh, you know,

3424
03:26:14,959 --> 03:26:18,760
Speaker 1: you could be out anywhere between two or twenty paychecks

3425
03:26:18,840 --> 03:26:22,720
Speaker 1: until something is resolved legally or even through direct Actually,

3426
03:26:22,920 --> 03:26:30,640
Speaker 1: there's obviously very directly oppressive power dynamic there, um, and

3427
03:26:32,400 --> 03:26:38,480
Speaker 1: I think that um to speak truth to power, to

3428
03:26:38,680 --> 03:26:43,720
Speaker 1: directly confront it um. Of course it's frightening. I mean

3429
03:26:43,800 --> 03:26:47,560
Speaker 1: I would be lying if you know, like I'm I'm

3430
03:26:47,920 --> 03:26:50,800
Speaker 1: you know, talking on this on this podcast about doing this,

3431
03:26:50,959 --> 03:26:53,160
Speaker 1: and yeah, we're doing this, and like you know, I'm

3432
03:26:53,200 --> 03:26:55,160
Speaker 1: not gonna pretend that like when we were even when

3433
03:26:55,200 --> 03:26:59,440
Speaker 1: we were in a forty person mass, you know, confronting management,

3434
03:26:59,480 --> 03:27:03,119
Speaker 1: addressing everyone together, it's still like, you know, there's there's

3435
03:27:03,280 --> 03:27:06,440
Speaker 1: there's still this para dynamic here and we're punching up

3436
03:27:06,720 --> 03:27:09,520
Speaker 1: like it's a punch, but like we're punging up to

3437
03:27:09,640 --> 03:27:14,640
Speaker 1: someone that's like a bigger, heavier, UM adversary, and so

3438
03:27:14,760 --> 03:27:17,560
Speaker 1: it's like they could swing back to like you gotta

3439
03:27:17,680 --> 03:27:23,160
Speaker 1: gotta be ready to and so UM, I think that

3440
03:27:24,080 --> 03:27:27,160
Speaker 1: what I'm describing on a kind of like face to

3441
03:27:27,280 --> 03:27:32,240
Speaker 1: face and the personal that moment in the workplace, I

3442
03:27:32,320 --> 03:27:34,680
Speaker 1: think on a broader scale also exists where it's like

3443
03:27:35,120 --> 03:27:41,600
Speaker 1: waging an extended you know, organizing struggle to be fighting

3444
03:27:41,680 --> 03:27:45,000
Speaker 1: this fight millions of times in many different ways and

3445
03:27:45,080 --> 03:27:47,640
Speaker 1: then continually trying to bring people together. You know, people

3446
03:27:47,720 --> 03:27:51,880
Speaker 1: move on because everything that's happening in life. They got

3447
03:27:51,959 --> 03:27:53,520
Speaker 1: evicted from their place, so they had to move to

3448
03:27:53,560 --> 03:27:55,480
Speaker 1: a different place far away. Okay, suddenly they had to

3449
03:27:55,560 --> 03:27:58,040
Speaker 1: leave a job and they were someone that was contributing

3450
03:27:58,040 --> 03:28:00,760
Speaker 1: a lot to the organizing. Some happened, someone has a

3451
03:28:00,800 --> 03:28:03,360
Speaker 1: family member, Uh, you know that they need to spend

3452
03:28:03,360 --> 03:28:06,560
Speaker 1: a little bit more time with um, everything that's happening,

3453
03:28:07,160 --> 03:28:12,920
Speaker 1: everything that's making, you know, reducing our time as working

3454
03:28:12,959 --> 03:28:14,800
Speaker 1: people to take care of ourselves and each other, like

3455
03:28:15,240 --> 03:28:19,920
Speaker 1: all of this, we're fighting against all of this, and UM,

3456
03:28:21,360 --> 03:28:24,560
Speaker 1: they're definitely ups and downs. They're definitely times it was

3457
03:28:24,640 --> 03:28:27,800
Speaker 1: like thing like we're you know, and then it seems

3458
03:28:27,840 --> 03:28:31,800
Speaker 1: I get times. Uh, all of the struggles and life

3459
03:28:32,360 --> 03:28:34,680
Speaker 1: like it's like you take like two steps forward and

3460
03:28:34,720 --> 03:28:38,720
Speaker 1: then two steps backwards. Get that, and so you know,

3461
03:28:38,840 --> 03:28:45,000
Speaker 1: there's definitely a difficult reality permitting everything, you know, all

3462
03:28:45,080 --> 03:28:49,400
Speaker 1: of the organizing wins, the advents that we're talking about.

3463
03:28:50,080 --> 03:28:53,320
Speaker 1: We need to be fully honest about that and also

3464
03:28:54,200 --> 03:28:58,800
Speaker 1: recognize that there's still like nothing more. There's like nothing

3465
03:28:58,879 --> 03:29:02,640
Speaker 1: more beautiful, powerful, There's there's no there's nothing that feels

3466
03:29:02,760 --> 03:29:07,520
Speaker 1: better than the that moment when you when the power

3467
03:29:07,600 --> 03:29:10,240
Speaker 1: dynamic was like this and you pull something off and

3468
03:29:10,280 --> 03:29:13,600
Speaker 1: it's like yeah, I was like, oh, like you you

3469
03:29:13,800 --> 03:29:17,680
Speaker 1: just did what we wanted, you know, and more. And

3470
03:29:17,760 --> 03:29:19,800
Speaker 1: then now like you're being real careful with us, like

3471
03:29:20,400 --> 03:29:25,360
Speaker 1: we we change things here, like our lives are better concretely, UM,

3472
03:29:26,200 --> 03:29:30,000
Speaker 1: and we made it happen, and uh, you know, I

3473
03:29:30,080 --> 03:29:34,600
Speaker 1: think those are like celebrating the winds and like taking

3474
03:29:34,680 --> 03:29:36,840
Speaker 1: joy not always thinking so far, okay, we got more

3475
03:29:36,920 --> 03:29:39,920
Speaker 1: to go. Yeah, they're always there's always more that UM

3476
03:29:40,320 --> 03:29:43,280
Speaker 1: we can and have to be building. And let's make

3477
03:29:43,320 --> 03:29:47,320
Speaker 1: sure that we're taking the time to recognize UM and

3478
03:29:47,480 --> 03:29:51,440
Speaker 1: celebrate each of the steps that we are UM advancing.

3479
03:29:52,160 --> 03:29:56,920
Speaker 1: So that you know, we we don't get lost in

3480
03:29:57,440 --> 03:30:01,440
Speaker 1: you know, assuming in the cycle of like taking permanent,

3481
03:30:01,600 --> 03:30:05,440
Speaker 1: infinite growth and organizing and being constantly stressed out about it,

3482
03:30:05,879 --> 03:30:08,480
Speaker 1: rather than like taking those breathers, taking those moments. Okay,

3483
03:30:08,640 --> 03:30:10,800
Speaker 1: like let's take this and strive, let's do this sustainable,

3484
03:30:10,879 --> 03:30:14,360
Speaker 1: let's not burnout. Um. Yeah, I think that's all part

3485
03:30:14,520 --> 03:30:18,160
Speaker 1: of figuring out how to how to how to make

3486
03:30:18,200 --> 03:30:23,000
Speaker 1: it happen. Yeah, And I think that's that's important. I

3487
03:30:23,080 --> 03:30:25,800
Speaker 1: think that that that's an important thing to understand with

3488
03:30:25,840 --> 03:30:28,160
Speaker 1: any kind of organizing, which is that like yeah, if

3489
03:30:28,280 --> 03:30:33,000
Speaker 1: if if you like if if if if, there's never

3490
03:30:33,200 --> 03:30:35,840
Speaker 1: sort of a moment in which you're reflecting on or

3491
03:30:36,200 --> 03:30:40,039
Speaker 1: or just celebrating like that the goals that you've actually accomplished, Right,

3492
03:30:40,080 --> 03:30:41,800
Speaker 1: you're just going to sort of be endlessly bashing your

3493
03:30:41,840 --> 03:30:44,840
Speaker 1: head against the wall, and you know that this is

3494
03:30:44,959 --> 03:30:46,320
Speaker 1: this is like yeah, I mean, this is this is

3495
03:30:46,360 --> 03:30:49,039
Speaker 1: sort of a burnout machine. This is a a way

3496
03:30:49,120 --> 03:30:51,280
Speaker 1: that you know, it's something that also just sort of

3497
03:30:51,640 --> 03:30:55,280
Speaker 1: feeds despair, which is that yeah, like you know like yeah, okay,

3498
03:30:55,320 --> 03:30:57,720
Speaker 1: your your victory is a small victory, but it is

3499
03:30:57,800 --> 03:31:02,119
Speaker 1: a real one and that's that's something that it even

3500
03:31:02,200 --> 03:31:05,080
Speaker 1: in the face of sort of like the Cyclopean horror

3501
03:31:05,360 --> 03:31:08,320
Speaker 1: of like just the world that we're living in, Like no,

3502
03:31:09,000 --> 03:31:11,680
Speaker 1: your your small victories dude lead up to bigger ones

3503
03:31:12,440 --> 03:31:15,640
Speaker 1: and yeah, and you know, and getting people to lose

3504
03:31:15,680 --> 03:31:18,600
Speaker 1: sight of that is a like it's it's in made

3505
03:31:18,600 --> 03:31:21,080
Speaker 1: your way. The system is held together by just sort

3506
03:31:21,120 --> 03:31:24,480
Speaker 1: of like manufacturing hopelessness, even when there there there are

3507
03:31:24,560 --> 03:31:26,200
Speaker 1: reasons for hope and there are reasons to sort of

3508
03:31:27,800 --> 03:31:29,680
Speaker 1: look at what you've done and go, hey, we we

3509
03:31:29,840 --> 03:31:36,400
Speaker 1: won this thing. Definitely. Yeah, I think that's a I

3510
03:31:36,440 --> 03:31:40,240
Speaker 1: guess unexpectedly cheery for the show not to end on

3511
03:31:40,840 --> 03:31:47,200
Speaker 1: do you have anything else? Yeah? I mean I think

3512
03:31:47,240 --> 03:31:50,840
Speaker 1: we touched on a lot um. I guess I have

3513
03:31:51,440 --> 03:31:55,680
Speaker 1: a usual pits or some version of it um. But

3514
03:31:56,400 --> 03:32:05,800
Speaker 1: I think, um, maybe something to bring together different elements

3515
03:32:05,840 --> 03:32:10,640
Speaker 1: that we touched on and bringing some of the sheery,

3516
03:32:10,840 --> 03:32:15,360
Speaker 1: hopefulness and also put out some encouragement too. I think

3517
03:32:15,480 --> 03:32:19,240
Speaker 1: now is a time where there's a whole lot of

3518
03:32:19,360 --> 03:32:23,520
Speaker 1: uncertainty and I'm uh, you know, definitely and a global

3519
03:32:24,080 --> 03:32:26,680
Speaker 1: week to week or year to year scale, but also

3520
03:32:26,720 --> 03:32:29,320
Speaker 1: on an individual level, I think a lot of individuals

3521
03:32:29,440 --> 03:32:33,920
Speaker 1: right now. UM, likely those that are listening UM, that

3522
03:32:34,080 --> 03:32:37,120
Speaker 1: that end up listening to this or UM those that

3523
03:32:37,160 --> 03:32:38,920
Speaker 1: are like seeing what's happening around the world, is like,

3524
03:32:39,000 --> 03:32:41,120
Speaker 1: what is my role in all of this? What am

3525
03:32:41,160 --> 03:32:44,280
Speaker 1: I trying to do? Different people are joining different organizations

3526
03:32:44,600 --> 03:32:48,040
Speaker 1: and and trying to figure out how they should be

3527
03:32:48,080 --> 03:32:50,320
Speaker 1: living their lives, what the what principles they should be

3528
03:32:50,360 --> 03:32:54,240
Speaker 1: living out, how they should be applying themselves to for example, UM,

3529
03:32:54,720 --> 03:33:02,240
Speaker 1: combat and dismantle UM, I don't know capitalism and and

3530
03:33:02,520 --> 03:33:08,000
Speaker 1: and uh you know, prison industrial complex and reverse climate

3531
03:33:08,040 --> 03:33:12,840
Speaker 1: destruction and find fascism and everything all of the existential

3532
03:33:12,879 --> 03:33:15,040
Speaker 1: threats that we face. It's like, what, you know, what

3533
03:33:15,240 --> 03:33:22,520
Speaker 1: is my role? And I think, UM, if if you

3534
03:33:22,879 --> 03:33:33,680
Speaker 1: at all have the capacity and curiosity, UM two, engage

3535
03:33:33,760 --> 03:33:39,119
Speaker 1: in some of this deep work yourself for building community relationships,

3536
03:33:39,240 --> 03:33:44,720
Speaker 1: culture among um, you know, just with workers, build building

3537
03:33:44,760 --> 03:33:48,640
Speaker 1: your own organization, building your own acts of resistance, building

3538
03:33:48,680 --> 03:33:52,280
Speaker 1: your own forms of of of you know, own forms

3539
03:33:52,360 --> 03:33:56,640
Speaker 1: of reclaiming your time and minds and bodies, and build

3540
03:33:56,680 --> 03:33:58,840
Speaker 1: something beautiful that can you know, be part of a

3541
03:33:58,879 --> 03:34:02,920
Speaker 1: broader movement that that you know, lifts up working people

3542
03:34:03,240 --> 03:34:06,080
Speaker 1: that kind of gets back what we are building and

3543
03:34:06,160 --> 03:34:10,720
Speaker 1: what we what we deserve. UM. You think about think

3544
03:34:10,760 --> 03:34:15,240
Speaker 1: about the logistics industry, think about warehouse work, UM, think

3545
03:34:15,280 --> 03:34:20,840
Speaker 1: about joining in UM and Uh you know it's uh,

3546
03:34:21,120 --> 03:34:23,840
Speaker 1: it's hard work. It's hard manual labor, it's hard mental

3547
03:34:23,920 --> 03:34:30,720
Speaker 1: and emotional work. UM. But I think this is the

3548
03:34:30,959 --> 03:34:39,680
Speaker 1: future of what the winning, fighting, uh successful labor movement

3549
03:34:40,280 --> 03:34:45,480
Speaker 1: UM will need. UM. And I think many people engaging

3550
03:34:45,520 --> 03:34:51,320
Speaker 1: in building more genuine, more worker focus, worker centered, worker

3551
03:34:51,440 --> 03:34:57,640
Speaker 1: run UH solidarity unions of our own democratic horizontal bottom

3552
03:34:57,800 --> 03:35:01,640
Speaker 1: up UM. I think building this way and connecting with

3553
03:35:01,720 --> 03:35:03,240
Speaker 1: each other, I think this is the way forward. I

3554
03:35:03,280 --> 03:35:06,280
Speaker 1: think this is the examples that we need. We need

3555
03:35:06,400 --> 03:35:09,920
Speaker 1: more people engaging in this work. We need more UM,

3556
03:35:11,240 --> 03:35:14,560
Speaker 1: more of that attention, energy and focus, Like how do

3557
03:35:14,680 --> 03:35:18,440
Speaker 1: we build the real stuff? UM. That's gonna be the

3558
03:35:20,120 --> 03:35:25,879
Speaker 1: powerful organizational influence to transform society and and avert these

3559
03:35:25,920 --> 03:35:30,920
Speaker 1: forms of extinction and continued extraction, exploitation, oppression of all

3560
03:35:31,000 --> 03:35:37,119
Speaker 1: of us. UM, join us, join join the struggle, get

3561
03:35:37,240 --> 03:35:39,160
Speaker 1: get some of these jobs. Talk to your co workers,

3562
03:35:39,240 --> 03:35:45,160
Speaker 1: build something that It's really that simple, UM And UH, yeah,

3563
03:35:45,360 --> 03:35:51,800
Speaker 1: that's my that's my every day pitch. Um. So if

3564
03:35:51,840 --> 03:35:55,280
Speaker 1: if people want to find Amazonians United specifically, where where

3565
03:35:55,400 --> 03:36:00,200
Speaker 1: where can they find y'all? Um, so in Chicago. So

3566
03:36:00,600 --> 03:36:05,520
Speaker 1: Amazonians United, Chicago Land, um is our name. We have

3567
03:36:05,640 --> 03:36:08,800
Speaker 1: a Facebook page, we have a Twitter. Um. Those are

3568
03:36:08,879 --> 03:36:14,480
Speaker 1: probably where we're most active. UM, and where you can

3569
03:36:14,560 --> 03:36:16,880
Speaker 1: follow and get into contact with us, tweet out us,

3570
03:36:17,480 --> 03:36:23,520
Speaker 1: message us on Facebook. UM. If you're really so inclined, UM,

3571
03:36:23,640 --> 03:36:28,000
Speaker 1: you can email us at a you Chicago Land at

3572
03:36:28,120 --> 03:36:31,840
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. Um. But otherwise, yeah, just look up,

3573
03:36:32,080 --> 03:36:34,480
Speaker 1: you know, follow our social media. You'll see what we

3574
03:36:34,600 --> 03:36:38,640
Speaker 1: post occasionally about what's going on. UM. And uh, you know,

3575
03:36:38,760 --> 03:36:41,840
Speaker 1: feel free to reach out, get into contact, asking any

3576
03:36:41,920 --> 03:36:45,440
Speaker 1: questions you might have. UM, and you know, let's connect,

3577
03:36:45,480 --> 03:36:49,240
Speaker 1: let's build community. Yeah. And that's that's a Chicagoland at

3578
03:36:49,280 --> 03:36:54,600
Speaker 1: a Chicago Land on Twitter by the way. Yeah. Um yeah,

3579
03:36:54,720 --> 03:36:57,240
Speaker 1: sweet Ted, thank you, thank you so thank you so

3580
03:36:57,360 --> 03:37:01,160
Speaker 1: much for joining me. Yeah. Thanks havn't me. Yeah, it's

3581
03:37:01,200 --> 03:37:04,959
Speaker 1: really great. Um. Yeah, if you want to find us

3582
03:37:05,280 --> 03:37:08,920
Speaker 1: at you can find us at having here, a pod

3583
03:37:09,000 --> 03:37:14,760
Speaker 1: on Twitter, Instagram and cool and media in the same places. UM. Yeah,

3584
03:37:14,959 --> 03:37:18,199
Speaker 1: go go go organize with your coworkers. Go do cool things,

3585
03:37:18,280 --> 03:37:24,000
Speaker 1: go be to a well a better place. Yes, yes, yes, sure,

3586
03:37:24,879 --> 03:37:39,360
Speaker 1: um yeah, thank you, thank you? Hey did you miss us?

3587
03:37:40,240 --> 03:37:43,560
Speaker 1: Truthans returns on March twenty two for season two. In

3588
03:37:43,680 --> 03:37:46,680
Speaker 1: its first season, the one of a kind of investigative podcast,

3589
03:37:46,879 --> 03:37:50,520
Speaker 1: hosted by comedians and real life friends Anna Sara Gina

3590
03:37:50,760 --> 03:37:54,240
Speaker 1: and kyle A Mazzono, dared to ask questions both mundane

3591
03:37:54,560 --> 03:37:59,200
Speaker 1: and extraordinary, questions like why are some people mean? And

3592
03:37:59,360 --> 03:38:02,920
Speaker 1: why does and fly by when you're having fun? And

3593
03:38:03,080 --> 03:38:06,240
Speaker 1: now they're back for what experts are calling one of

3594
03:38:06,280 --> 03:38:09,560
Speaker 1: the most dramatic seasons yet. Tune in as Anna and

3595
03:38:09,720 --> 03:38:12,320
Speaker 1: Kyle put their lives on the line in the name

3596
03:38:12,680 --> 03:38:15,880
Speaker 1: of pod. This season will have you and your girls

3597
03:38:16,160 --> 03:38:18,360
Speaker 1: saying things like I came over here as fast as

3598
03:38:18,400 --> 03:38:21,120
Speaker 1: I could. Are you okay? I'm okay? But did you

3599
03:38:21,240 --> 03:38:23,920
Speaker 1: hear what they did on Truetown Season two? Oh my god?

3600
03:38:24,200 --> 03:38:30,199
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god, oh my god. Listen

3601
03:38:30,240 --> 03:38:32,240
Speaker 1: to the True Towns and the I Heart Radio app,

3602
03:38:32,400 --> 03:38:38,039
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. I'm

3603
03:38:38,040 --> 03:38:41,400
Speaker 1: Elliott Caleb, comedian, author, history buff and host of the

3604
03:38:41,480 --> 03:38:44,360
Speaker 1: Who Was Podcast, a history quiz show based on the

3605
03:38:44,400 --> 03:38:47,480
Speaker 1: best selling book series where kid contestants go toe to

3606
03:38:47,560 --> 03:38:50,680
Speaker 1: toe for a chance to win fantastic prizes. My co

3607
03:38:50,879 --> 03:38:54,920
Speaker 1: host b and I asked the tough questions, like when

3608
03:38:55,120 --> 03:38:58,600
Speaker 1: Mozart right TikTok? But that's not all we talk about

3609
03:38:58,640 --> 03:39:04,680
Speaker 1: on the show. You really a signature? Look is BedHead? Alright?

3610
03:39:04,720 --> 03:39:08,120
Speaker 1: I like it? I do gymnastics and I have two scars.

3611
03:39:08,959 --> 03:39:11,879
Speaker 1: Are the scars from gymnastics? Where were you like wrestling

3612
03:39:11,920 --> 03:39:15,520
Speaker 1: dinosaurs and things like that? I really white kiss you.

3613
03:39:15,840 --> 03:39:18,680
Speaker 1: Even my mom says I know more than most adults too.

3614
03:39:19,600 --> 03:39:22,920
Speaker 1: We've got fun games, silly songs, and don't forget to

3615
03:39:23,000 --> 03:39:28,879
Speaker 1: mention our amazing guests. It's all I'm gonna throw a fame.

3616
03:39:31,680 --> 03:39:37,320
Speaker 1: How about everyone? It's me. I'll read the Franklin. Listen

3617
03:39:37,440 --> 03:39:40,120
Speaker 1: to the Who Was Podcast on the I Heart Radio

3618
03:39:40,200 --> 03:39:46,440
Speaker 1: app Apple podcast for Every Year podcast most podcast, because

3619
03:39:46,640 --> 03:39:59,840
Speaker 1: it's time to ard guard me arties. This is me.

3620
03:40:00,000 --> 03:40:02,160
Speaker 1: Are you doing a priorate voice? Which is kind of

3621
03:40:02,640 --> 03:40:05,879
Speaker 1: a bad a bad Irish voice. That's enough. That's enough

3622
03:40:05,879 --> 03:40:09,080
Speaker 1: of that. Um Hi, welcome to take it oppen. Here

3623
03:40:09,120 --> 03:40:11,000
Speaker 1: in the show where we're talking about things that could

3624
03:40:11,200 --> 03:40:15,760
Speaker 1: possibly happen and or are happening and go your harsh

3625
03:40:16,000 --> 03:40:21,080
Speaker 1: l D. I'm Carrison. Welcome to this tech centric episode.

3626
03:40:21,160 --> 03:40:24,400
Speaker 1: This is very exciting with me, is Chris to help

3627
03:40:24,520 --> 03:40:30,600
Speaker 1: us discuss libraries and piracy or permanently pirate brained and

3628
03:40:30,840 --> 03:40:34,080
Speaker 1: and pay walls and all this all this fun stuff.

3629
03:40:34,560 --> 03:40:37,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, we're talking about kind of free access to

3630
03:40:37,800 --> 03:40:41,600
Speaker 1: information and uh, I don't know, like I really like

3631
03:40:41,760 --> 03:40:44,440
Speaker 1: libraries and I think a library based economy would be

3632
03:40:44,480 --> 03:40:48,680
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Yeah, you know, libraries for everything. Uh, food

3633
03:40:48,760 --> 03:40:53,040
Speaker 1: libraries you to take food, you know, deposit compost. Um,

3634
03:40:53,120 --> 03:40:57,120
Speaker 1: it's the decent, decent system. Got the tool libraries so

3635
03:40:57,240 --> 03:41:00,280
Speaker 1: you can get you know, your angle grinders for taking

3636
03:41:00,280 --> 03:41:02,520
Speaker 1: apart in federal fences. You can get your you know,

3637
03:41:03,160 --> 03:41:05,800
Speaker 1: soldering irons for building your f GC nines, you know,

3638
03:41:05,959 --> 03:41:08,400
Speaker 1: all all of all of the basic stuff. And I

3639
03:41:08,480 --> 03:41:11,360
Speaker 1: guess book libraries are cool too. Um, but we already

3640
03:41:11,400 --> 03:41:13,160
Speaker 1: have those and we're gonna be We're gonna be talking

3641
03:41:13,240 --> 03:41:14,960
Speaker 1: with them a little bit. Where are we having a

3642
03:41:15,000 --> 03:41:20,200
Speaker 1: discussion on paywalls, piracy, ar and uh and how access

3643
03:41:20,320 --> 03:41:24,200
Speaker 1: information is actually good? Um, contrary to what many people

3644
03:41:24,280 --> 03:41:29,240
Speaker 1: want to tell you. Yeah, I know. So Yeah, as

3645
03:41:29,360 --> 03:41:35,199
Speaker 1: as the Internet became easier to access and information flow accelerated.

3646
03:41:35,720 --> 03:41:40,480
Speaker 1: There's been kind of questions and speculation on how physical

3647
03:41:40,560 --> 03:41:45,320
Speaker 1: book libraries will fit into our increasingly digital media landscape. Now,

3648
03:41:45,400 --> 03:41:47,680
Speaker 1: it's important to mention that the library is also one

3649
03:41:47,760 --> 03:41:50,720
Speaker 1: of the main ways for lower income people to access

3650
03:41:50,840 --> 03:41:53,879
Speaker 1: the internet, um, with their you know, collection of free

3651
03:41:53,920 --> 03:41:56,160
Speaker 1: to use computers as well as you know, a decent

3652
03:41:56,240 --> 03:42:00,520
Speaker 1: WiFi connection UM and many many libraries all so are

3653
03:42:00,600 --> 03:42:04,000
Speaker 1: expanding their scope to include stuff like maker spaces as

3654
03:42:04,080 --> 03:42:06,360
Speaker 1: well as you know, their printers and standard kind of

3655
03:42:06,440 --> 03:42:10,800
Speaker 1: office supplies. So libraries are already kind of beyond just

3656
03:42:11,280 --> 03:42:13,760
Speaker 1: places to get printed media. But of course it is

3657
03:42:13,920 --> 03:42:15,920
Speaker 1: that is kind of there one that has been their

3658
03:42:15,959 --> 03:42:18,640
Speaker 1: main their main premise, but you know, they've been they've

3659
03:42:18,680 --> 03:42:23,440
Speaker 1: been including stuff regarding e books, computer use, WiFi access,

3660
03:42:23,480 --> 03:42:25,640
Speaker 1: all the stuff has been a part of libraries for

3661
03:42:25,800 --> 03:42:29,520
Speaker 1: like the past years. Um. Yeah, like it's it's not,

3662
03:42:29,760 --> 03:42:31,480
Speaker 1: it's not, it's not, it's not. It's not a new thing.

3663
03:42:31,680 --> 03:42:33,360
Speaker 1: But I think when when people think of libraries, we

3664
03:42:33,440 --> 03:42:36,480
Speaker 1: just think of books are newspapers and stuff, but it is,

3665
03:42:36,560 --> 03:42:39,520
Speaker 1: it is definitely more than that. Because yeah, obviously physical

3666
03:42:39,560 --> 03:42:42,760
Speaker 1: libraries are mostly known for printing materials. And because we'll

3667
03:42:42,760 --> 03:42:47,000
Speaker 1: be talking about paywalls and piracy are um and and

3668
03:42:47,200 --> 03:42:50,879
Speaker 1: fears that access to free content will negatively impact creator's

3669
03:42:50,920 --> 03:42:53,800
Speaker 1: ability to make such content. I figured let's start by

3670
03:42:53,840 --> 03:42:56,440
Speaker 1: talking about book libraries, since they're one of the oldest

3671
03:42:56,480 --> 03:43:01,080
Speaker 1: examples of providing information for free. So based on kind

3672
03:43:01,120 --> 03:43:04,480
Speaker 1: of surveys and data collected from you from library users

3673
03:43:04,520 --> 03:43:08,240
Speaker 1: across the country, it would seem that libraries and loaned

3674
03:43:08,400 --> 03:43:11,600
Speaker 1: e books are actually a very powerful economic engine for

3675
03:43:11,800 --> 03:43:15,080
Speaker 1: the book business. Now, yes, libraries do have special deals

3676
03:43:15,160 --> 03:43:16,920
Speaker 1: to buy the books that they you have in stock,

3677
03:43:17,160 --> 03:43:21,920
Speaker 1: sometimes they're donated. But even beyond that fact, like library users,

3678
03:43:22,040 --> 03:43:25,080
Speaker 1: like the fact that libraries exist for the users in

3679
03:43:25,200 --> 03:43:29,160
Speaker 1: and of themselves increase book sales. Um, it's it's a

3680
03:43:29,400 --> 03:43:32,400
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty fun. So even as far back as

3681
03:43:33,200 --> 03:43:37,640
Speaker 1: there's been studies that show that libraries do increase book sales. Now, yes,

3682
03:43:37,760 --> 03:43:40,800
Speaker 1: this is this is this is a capitalist argument. But

3683
03:43:41,040 --> 03:43:44,760
Speaker 1: sometimes when arguing with let's you know, let's call them normies, um,

3684
03:43:44,840 --> 03:43:46,560
Speaker 1: you can convince them to agree with a lot of

3685
03:43:46,680 --> 03:43:50,520
Speaker 1: kind of like anarchy leaning improvements to the world by

3686
03:43:50,600 --> 03:43:53,160
Speaker 1: carefully using their own rhetoric against them, right, this is

3687
03:43:53,240 --> 03:43:55,680
Speaker 1: this is like the same thing with the giving out

3688
03:43:55,760 --> 03:43:59,800
Speaker 1: free drugs and having safe drug in in like intake sites,

3689
03:44:00,240 --> 03:44:02,400
Speaker 1: and giving houses to homeless people, you know, all all

3690
03:44:02,440 --> 03:44:04,440
Speaker 1: the type of stuff. You know, all of those things

3691
03:44:04,680 --> 03:44:07,560
Speaker 1: are cheaper for the taxpayer than what we're currently doing

3692
03:44:07,640 --> 03:44:10,240
Speaker 1: with how we use emergencies, like how for how we

3693
03:44:10,320 --> 03:44:13,879
Speaker 1: use emergency services spending. So yes, it's a capitalist argument,

3694
03:44:14,120 --> 03:44:16,360
Speaker 1: but you can still kind of you know, paint someone

3695
03:44:16,400 --> 03:44:19,680
Speaker 1: into a corner to to agree that like actual good

3696
03:44:19,720 --> 03:44:22,840
Speaker 1: improvements by using hey, this is actually cheaper, you know

3697
03:44:23,160 --> 03:44:27,000
Speaker 1: that that type of argument. So yeah, libraries they do

3698
03:44:27,120 --> 03:44:30,120
Speaker 1: increase book sales, so that is mostly cool. There is

3699
03:44:30,320 --> 03:44:32,680
Speaker 1: There was a study that shows around this is studying

3700
03:44:32,680 --> 03:44:37,440
Speaker 1: around showed that library users report purchasing books by an

3701
03:44:37,480 --> 03:44:40,320
Speaker 1: author that they were introduced to through the library system,

3702
03:44:41,000 --> 03:44:43,640
Speaker 1: which debunks the myth that want a library bias books

3703
03:44:43,959 --> 03:44:47,680
Speaker 1: the publisher will lose future sales um Instead, it confirms

3704
03:44:47,800 --> 03:44:51,000
Speaker 1: that the public library does not only incubate and support

3705
03:44:51,040 --> 03:44:53,879
Speaker 1: literacy as it's you know, generally understood in our culture,

3706
03:44:54,000 --> 03:44:56,440
Speaker 1: but it's also an active partner with the publishing industry

3707
03:44:57,320 --> 03:45:00,600
Speaker 1: for building up the book market, and also so including

3708
03:45:00,600 --> 03:45:03,879
Speaker 1: in that is the ever growing e book market, which

3709
03:45:04,200 --> 03:45:06,320
Speaker 1: I don't really like the books for reasons will kind

3710
03:45:06,360 --> 03:45:08,080
Speaker 1: of discuss in a bit for how I kind of

3711
03:45:08,160 --> 03:45:11,119
Speaker 1: have an aversion to the idea of like a digital ownership.

3712
03:45:11,600 --> 03:45:15,840
Speaker 1: But the books are undeniably a very growing industry that

3713
03:45:16,000 --> 03:45:20,240
Speaker 1: also you know, does does support writers in a lot

3714
03:45:20,280 --> 03:45:22,760
Speaker 1: of ways. Um, but I think physical books are a

3715
03:45:22,840 --> 03:45:26,320
Speaker 1: lot cooler and more reliable. They are, as you can

3716
03:45:26,360 --> 03:45:28,720
Speaker 1: tell by my very nice physical book collection behind me,

3717
03:45:29,000 --> 03:45:31,359
Speaker 1: which you cannot listen to because this is a podcast

3718
03:45:31,400 --> 03:45:33,560
Speaker 1: and you can't listen with your ears unless you're on

3719
03:45:33,600 --> 03:45:36,160
Speaker 1: a lot of drugs, which good luck hearing the books

3720
03:45:36,160 --> 03:45:41,480
Speaker 1: behind me. People who listen to yeah you too, But

3721
03:45:41,760 --> 03:45:45,160
Speaker 1: yeah I'm not. I'm not talking about them. Um, this

3722
03:45:45,360 --> 03:45:49,040
Speaker 1: is an anti people who have jug induced cynthesia podcast.

3723
03:45:49,680 --> 03:45:56,400
Speaker 1: Now Lucky Bastard's gonna get canceled. Yeah, that's what's gonna

3724
03:45:56,400 --> 03:46:00,520
Speaker 1: get me after all. Well bleep that I can't you

3725
03:46:00,560 --> 03:46:05,040
Speaker 1: said that? Whoa Chris just said one of the just

3726
03:46:05,360 --> 03:46:07,480
Speaker 1: one of the most one of the most one of

3727
03:46:07,520 --> 03:46:09,760
Speaker 1: the most horrible authors that I would never be caught

3728
03:46:09,840 --> 03:46:15,680
Speaker 1: dead reading any of their books. Um, anyway. Ah, So

3729
03:46:17,280 --> 03:46:20,840
Speaker 1: the idea that like piracy and free information will like

3730
03:46:21,440 --> 03:46:25,440
Speaker 1: tank creative industries, and you know, the idea that you know,

3731
03:46:25,560 --> 03:46:29,360
Speaker 1: just having access to free versions of media will hurt

3732
03:46:29,480 --> 03:46:32,360
Speaker 1: the ability to make more of the media is definitely

3733
03:46:32,480 --> 03:46:36,640
Speaker 1: proven wrong simply by the modern existence and popularity of

3734
03:46:36,959 --> 03:46:40,840
Speaker 1: nu may uh in the United States, because we would

3735
03:46:40,840 --> 03:46:42,840
Speaker 1: not have anime Animal will not be what it is

3736
03:46:42,920 --> 03:46:46,880
Speaker 1: today without piracy. Uh and uh because in the in

3737
03:46:46,959 --> 03:46:49,960
Speaker 1: the specifically like two thousands, late nineties, the piracy of

3738
03:46:50,040 --> 03:46:53,800
Speaker 1: anime became you know, big massive reason why it is

3739
03:46:53,840 --> 03:46:56,440
Speaker 1: the cultural jug or not that it is today over

3740
03:46:56,680 --> 03:47:00,160
Speaker 1: half of nime related sales revenue comes from overseas. Is

3741
03:47:00,280 --> 03:47:04,160
Speaker 1: not not Japan. It comes from places like the States. Yeah,

3742
03:47:04,200 --> 03:47:05,600
Speaker 1: and you know, and it's also what I think worth

3743
03:47:05,640 --> 03:47:08,760
Speaker 1: mentioning here, Like it wasn't even just that they were

3744
03:47:08,840 --> 03:47:11,800
Speaker 1: like pirating the show, right, they were pirating they were

3745
03:47:11,840 --> 03:47:17,320
Speaker 1: getting a worse version of it, oh because like you know, yeah,

3746
03:47:17,440 --> 03:47:21,000
Speaker 1: terrible resolutions like I mean literally like VCRs that people

3747
03:47:21,080 --> 03:47:24,080
Speaker 1: had figured out how to like right like get subtitles on.

3748
03:47:24,280 --> 03:47:27,160
Speaker 1: Like these versions of it are terrible. The translations are awful,

3749
03:47:27,200 --> 03:47:31,760
Speaker 1: and it's still just like absolutely like just catapulted anime

3750
03:47:32,000 --> 03:47:35,400
Speaker 1: from like an incredibly fringed thing for weirdos to a

3751
03:47:35,560 --> 03:47:37,720
Speaker 1: thing that is also still for weirdos, but it's still

3752
03:47:37,800 --> 03:47:41,880
Speaker 1: largely mainstream. Yeah, I'm gonna gonna take take this opportunity

3753
03:47:41,959 --> 03:47:46,040
Speaker 1: to plug our future episode just dissecting the politics of

3754
03:47:46,400 --> 03:47:54,400
Speaker 1: attack on tited dot dot. It's coming, folks, It's strap in. So, yes,

3755
03:47:56,120 --> 03:47:57,720
Speaker 1: what not would not be the thing is today without

3756
03:47:57,760 --> 03:48:01,680
Speaker 1: without without privacy and again but the majority of of

3757
03:48:01,959 --> 03:48:06,879
Speaker 1: sales revenue comes from not Japan. So yeah, that's that's

3758
03:48:06,920 --> 03:48:11,360
Speaker 1: a pretty pretty pretty clear. So the discovery of new

3759
03:48:11,440 --> 03:48:14,640
Speaker 1: books and authors through the library system um is definitely

3760
03:48:14,680 --> 03:48:17,720
Speaker 1: searching right now, actually specifically due to e books and

3761
03:48:17,879 --> 03:48:23,920
Speaker 1: audio books being available online anytime, well like via library means.

3762
03:48:24,040 --> 03:48:25,600
Speaker 1: So there's like, you know, there's there's ways you can

3763
03:48:25,680 --> 03:48:28,800
Speaker 1: access you can quote unquote borrow these types of things

3764
03:48:29,000 --> 03:48:32,680
Speaker 1: via via the library systems, despite them being like digital media,

3765
03:48:33,240 --> 03:48:36,080
Speaker 1: which again I prefer physical, but that's that's something we'll

3766
03:48:36,080 --> 03:48:40,680
Speaker 1: talk about later. So even even while visits to libraries

3767
03:48:40,800 --> 03:48:45,119
Speaker 1: and like physical bookstores A pommeted during COVID nineteen digital

3768
03:48:45,200 --> 03:48:47,600
Speaker 1: library usage sword, which is you know that that that

3769
03:48:47,800 --> 03:48:51,120
Speaker 1: that that that tracks um more than four hundred and

3770
03:48:51,320 --> 03:48:56,320
Speaker 1: thirty million titles were borrowed from the Overdrive library platform

3771
03:48:56,680 --> 03:49:00,280
Speaker 1: in alone, and it would you know it, You could

3772
03:49:00,400 --> 03:49:03,720
Speaker 1: you could assume that this would cause a drop in

3773
03:49:03,800 --> 03:49:06,840
Speaker 1: the purchasing of books during the same period, but the

3774
03:49:06,840 --> 03:49:10,120
Speaker 1: opposite is true. Actually, the overall purchasing of books also

3775
03:49:10,240 --> 03:49:13,920
Speaker 1: rose in including an eight percent lift in these sales

3776
03:49:14,000 --> 03:49:16,600
Speaker 1: of print books, despite a lot of people being out

3777
03:49:16,640 --> 03:49:18,960
Speaker 1: of jobs, out of work. You know that turns out

3778
03:49:19,200 --> 03:49:21,200
Speaker 1: people are boards They're going to spend money on books

3779
03:49:21,200 --> 03:49:24,200
Speaker 1: because books are cool, and even when they have access

3780
03:49:24,240 --> 03:49:27,960
Speaker 1: to library stuff, they still buy books. Yep, it's a.

3781
03:49:28,200 --> 03:49:30,920
Speaker 1: It's a it's a simple truth that the library patrons

3782
03:49:31,000 --> 03:49:34,160
Speaker 1: are usually also book buyers. It's it's me. I am

3783
03:49:34,400 --> 03:49:37,120
Speaker 1: literally surrounded by books on all sides that they have

3784
03:49:37,240 --> 03:49:39,840
Speaker 1: me surrounded. I have no escape. And this is what

3785
03:49:39,880 --> 03:49:41,920
Speaker 1: happens when you grow up in a library. I mean

3786
03:49:41,960 --> 03:49:43,480
Speaker 1: I also grew up in a library. Mean I was,

3787
03:49:43,520 --> 03:49:46,960
Speaker 1: I was homeschooled. I grew a library. To my to

3788
03:49:47,200 --> 03:49:49,840
Speaker 1: to my left, I have books on urban exploration and

3789
03:49:50,000 --> 03:49:54,040
Speaker 1: Lemony Snicket. My right, I have books on alchemy. Behind me,

3790
03:49:54,240 --> 03:49:56,840
Speaker 1: I have books which I should I'll not name um

3791
03:49:57,480 --> 03:50:00,000
Speaker 1: and behind me I have a massive techo comic book

3792
03:50:00,560 --> 03:50:03,680
Speaker 1: of Yeah, I have usually surrounded by books. It's the

3793
03:50:03,880 --> 03:50:06,840
Speaker 1: books are great and you you have them unless they

3794
03:50:06,920 --> 03:50:09,160
Speaker 1: burn up. You're gonna have them, no matter whether the

3795
03:50:09,280 --> 03:50:13,000
Speaker 1: Internet goes out, whether whether an online provider shuts down,

3796
03:50:13,120 --> 03:50:15,560
Speaker 1: you're gonna You're gonna have physical books. They are they are,

3797
03:50:15,680 --> 03:50:20,160
Speaker 1: they are pretty, they're pretty cool. So in libraries and like,

3798
03:50:20,200 --> 03:50:23,560
Speaker 1: the library system offers a really great way to discover

3799
03:50:23,760 --> 03:50:27,680
Speaker 1: new books, new series, new genres, or new authors before

3800
03:50:27,760 --> 03:50:30,800
Speaker 1: deciding whether to permanently purchase those titles. So it's it's

3801
03:50:30,880 --> 03:50:32,880
Speaker 1: this isn't just like an assumption used to hype up

3802
03:50:32,920 --> 03:50:35,720
Speaker 1: the idea of a library. But this has been proven

3803
03:50:35,760 --> 03:50:37,240
Speaker 1: by lots of studies, like the why I mentioned a

3804
03:50:37,280 --> 03:50:39,840
Speaker 1: few minutes ago from two US and eleven m. Also

3805
03:50:40,040 --> 03:50:45,920
Speaker 1: there was the Panorama Projects Immersive Media and Books Consumer Survey,

3806
03:50:46,040 --> 03:50:49,840
Speaker 1: which is a way too long the title real Mouthful,

3807
03:50:50,080 --> 03:50:53,040
Speaker 1: which found that one third of responders bought a book

3808
03:50:53,320 --> 03:50:56,960
Speaker 1: that they discovered through the library in So it turns

3809
03:50:57,000 --> 03:50:58,840
Speaker 1: out you you discover a book, you turn it and

3810
03:50:58,840 --> 03:51:00,600
Speaker 1: you're like, hey, that book actually pretty all just buy

3811
03:51:00,600 --> 03:51:03,440
Speaker 1: a copy myself. I did that. I still do that

3812
03:51:03,520 --> 03:51:07,280
Speaker 1: all the time. It's a yeah, it's it's it's it's

3813
03:51:07,400 --> 03:51:09,360
Speaker 1: it's a thing. So why I own all my Star

3814
03:51:09,440 --> 03:51:13,560
Speaker 1: Wars books. This is why I have a beautiful copy

3815
03:51:13,600 --> 03:51:18,200
Speaker 1: of Splinter in the Mind's Eye, which I am very

3816
03:51:18,280 --> 03:51:22,000
Speaker 1: curious to see. Who will get that joke? I was.

3817
03:51:22,160 --> 03:51:23,560
Speaker 1: I was trying to think of the worst Star worst

3818
03:51:23,560 --> 03:51:24,680
Speaker 1: book that I have, and then you said that, and

3819
03:51:24,680 --> 03:51:29,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, I can't. I think I actually have that. Well,

3820
03:51:29,120 --> 03:51:31,960
Speaker 1: there I go, there's there's two. There's two for you

3821
03:51:32,720 --> 03:51:37,280
Speaker 1: to uh. Yeah. So in our kind of in our

3822
03:51:37,320 --> 03:51:40,000
Speaker 1: life technology driven world of like, you know, wanting things

3823
03:51:40,160 --> 03:51:44,320
Speaker 1: very quickly, you know, instant instant gratification. UM library users

3824
03:51:44,680 --> 03:51:47,840
Speaker 1: are no different. Right, they still have that instant gratification

3825
03:51:47,960 --> 03:51:50,480
Speaker 1: drive and many times they will want a specific a

3826
03:51:50,520 --> 03:51:52,880
Speaker 1: book and they'll be happy to pay for it instead

3827
03:51:52,920 --> 03:51:55,360
Speaker 1: of waiting for at the library. Right, you can put

3828
03:51:55,400 --> 03:51:57,200
Speaker 1: a book on hold await a month, or you can

3829
03:51:57,280 --> 03:51:59,520
Speaker 1: buy it for ten bucks, and oftentimes people will buy

3830
03:51:59,560 --> 03:52:02,920
Speaker 1: the book because we want things quickly. It's according to

3831
03:52:03,000 --> 03:52:06,360
Speaker 1: the same Panorama Project immers of the Media and Books

3832
03:52:07,000 --> 03:52:12,400
Speaker 1: consumer survey, about of respondents said that they just bought

3833
03:52:12,440 --> 03:52:16,040
Speaker 1: books rather than waiting for them if they are unavailable

3834
03:52:16,160 --> 03:52:20,400
Speaker 1: from from the library at the time. So and it's

3835
03:52:20,520 --> 03:52:23,360
Speaker 1: it's it's a great system. Like libraries are also frequently

3836
03:52:23,400 --> 03:52:25,680
Speaker 1: used just as like a really good browsing tool. Um.

3837
03:52:25,840 --> 03:52:27,200
Speaker 1: You know, if you're unsure of what you want to

3838
03:52:27,240 --> 03:52:29,680
Speaker 1: read next, you can go to library, look at stuff

3839
03:52:29,680 --> 03:52:31,120
Speaker 1: and be like, Okay, this is what I'm interested in,

3840
03:52:31,560 --> 03:52:34,520
Speaker 1: and then purchase it online or in person at a

3841
03:52:34,640 --> 03:52:37,960
Speaker 1: later date. And it's not just it's not not not

3842
03:52:38,080 --> 03:52:42,400
Speaker 1: not just physical books. Library users are also are also

3843
03:52:42,480 --> 03:52:46,080
Speaker 1: driving the purchase e books and physical books um and

3844
03:52:46,200 --> 03:52:49,000
Speaker 1: audio books. Audio books have been actually very big at library.

3845
03:52:49,000 --> 03:52:50,320
Speaker 1: I used to listen to a lot of audio books

3846
03:52:50,320 --> 03:52:53,240
Speaker 1: actually from the library because I would get c d

3847
03:52:53,520 --> 03:52:57,560
Speaker 1: s back when those great for road trips, back in

3848
03:52:57,600 --> 03:53:01,120
Speaker 1: the old days when you had a CD, I say

3849
03:53:01,360 --> 03:53:07,840
Speaker 1: with my gen z uh um outlook yes uh CDs

3850
03:53:07,960 --> 03:53:12,520
Speaker 1: classic Classic. According to the Audio Publishers Association also known

3851
03:53:12,600 --> 03:53:17,840
Speaker 1: as the a P A just acronym, daily audio consumption

3852
03:53:18,280 --> 03:53:22,760
Speaker 1: has grown seventy one since which is not surprising me.

3853
03:53:22,840 --> 03:53:24,800
Speaker 1: Like there's there's there's stuff like Audible and you know,

3854
03:53:24,960 --> 03:53:29,440
Speaker 1: big big platforms that are are making high quality audiobook content. Uh,

3855
03:53:29,800 --> 03:53:35,960
Speaker 1: but that's that's that's a lot in alone. Audiobook revenue

3856
03:53:36,320 --> 03:53:39,680
Speaker 1: grew by sevent even even though the number of people

3857
03:53:40,200 --> 03:53:42,640
Speaker 1: who were commuting plummeted, right because a lot of people

3858
03:53:42,640 --> 03:53:44,800
Speaker 1: listen to audiobooks while like driving to work. So the

3859
03:53:44,920 --> 03:53:48,040
Speaker 1: number of you know, of commuting dropped in because there

3860
03:53:48,080 --> 03:53:49,640
Speaker 1: was this plague. I'm not sure if you've heard about that,

3861
03:53:50,520 --> 03:53:55,920
Speaker 1: but they know that's true. They're pretending it's not real.

3862
03:53:56,760 --> 03:53:58,720
Speaker 1: But if yeah, if if, if, if you look at

3863
03:53:58,760 --> 03:54:02,520
Speaker 1: most if you look at you know, the the audiobook revenue,

3864
03:54:02,640 --> 03:54:07,320
Speaker 1: it grew despite their being much less, much less, much

3865
03:54:07,400 --> 03:54:10,560
Speaker 1: less work commuting. And that was the eighth straight year

3866
03:54:10,640 --> 03:54:13,640
Speaker 1: of double of double digit growth in the audio book

3867
03:54:14,080 --> 03:54:17,120
Speaker 1: revenue sector. And it aligns with other kind of digital

3868
03:54:17,200 --> 03:54:22,400
Speaker 1: library usage statistics. So yeah, like libraries and booksellers, will

3869
03:54:22,920 --> 03:54:27,400
Speaker 1: they work in tandem. They they library's drive interest for

3870
03:54:27,680 --> 03:54:31,600
Speaker 1: content both physical and digital. You know, rising tide races

3871
03:54:31,680 --> 03:54:35,240
Speaker 1: all all of those floaty things on the water. Um

3872
03:54:35,440 --> 03:54:42,320
Speaker 1: as the saying goes are it's a piracy joke, everybody. Yeah,

3873
03:54:42,760 --> 03:54:45,640
Speaker 1: over drive has found that when a reader uses one

3874
03:54:45,720 --> 03:54:48,640
Speaker 1: or more digital library apps like a Libby I've never

3875
03:54:48,680 --> 03:54:50,920
Speaker 1: heard of until I had to research on this podcast.

3876
03:54:51,280 --> 03:54:53,920
Speaker 1: But once you if you use more than one one

3877
03:54:54,000 --> 03:54:57,200
Speaker 1: or more digit digital library apps you're sixty, you are

3878
03:54:58,080 --> 03:55:01,280
Speaker 1: more likely to increase your book resumption year over year

3879
03:55:01,560 --> 03:55:03,480
Speaker 1: versus people who do not. So yeah, it turns out

3880
03:55:03,520 --> 03:55:05,280
Speaker 1: when you read more books, you want to read more

3881
03:55:05,360 --> 03:55:10,960
Speaker 1: books because it's fun. It's fun. So instead of instead

3882
03:55:10,960 --> 03:55:12,920
Speaker 1: of reading a book, I'm going to give our audio

3883
03:55:13,120 --> 03:55:15,960
Speaker 1: listeners an opportunity right now to listen to this carefully

3884
03:55:16,040 --> 03:55:19,840
Speaker 1: curated selection of ads unless they're by like I don't know,

3885
03:55:20,040 --> 03:55:22,800
Speaker 1: the National Guard or whatever. So here you go. Here's

3886
03:55:22,920 --> 03:55:26,560
Speaker 1: here's some ads, and we are back. What a lovely,

3887
03:55:26,760 --> 03:55:31,480
Speaker 1: lovely collection of audio treats to tickle your ears. Okay, okay,

3888
03:55:31,640 --> 03:55:38,160
Speaker 1: you're God speaking speaking of tickling your ears. Sonic the Hedgehog.

3889
03:55:38,480 --> 03:55:42,080
Speaker 1: So a lot of a lot of the reasons why

3890
03:55:42,600 --> 03:55:46,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna so this this this will make sense, I promise, um.

3891
03:55:47,040 --> 03:55:54,840
Speaker 1: We're about to talk about fly genetics, Sshnic Hedgehog. We're

3892
03:55:54,880 --> 03:55:57,560
Speaker 1: talking about how like when people are allowed to like

3893
03:55:57,680 --> 03:56:00,600
Speaker 1: do piracy and allowed to do like their own things

3894
03:56:00,640 --> 03:56:03,280
Speaker 1: with media and actually boosts the overall kind of like

3895
03:56:03,480 --> 03:56:06,760
Speaker 1: the presence of the franchise, right, So Sonic the Hedgehog

3896
03:56:06,800 --> 03:56:09,680
Speaker 1: would not be a current cultural steak if it wasn't

3897
03:56:09,720 --> 03:56:12,320
Speaker 1: for fan culture and the use of like fan games

3898
03:56:12,440 --> 03:56:15,480
Speaker 1: and fan media related to Sonic. So this the same

3899
03:56:15,560 --> 03:56:19,000
Speaker 1: thing was like anime. Right. Um, you know, Sonic Sonic

3900
03:56:19,040 --> 03:56:20,920
Speaker 1: fan games which were allowed to be existed for years,

3901
03:56:20,960 --> 03:56:23,280
Speaker 1: which they get encouraged, are the only reason why there's

3902
03:56:23,280 --> 03:56:25,400
Speaker 1: a good Sonic games right now, like Sonic Mania, which

3903
03:56:25,440 --> 03:56:28,320
Speaker 1: were just they just hired people who made fan games. Um,

3904
03:56:28,720 --> 03:56:31,200
Speaker 1: the person who redesigned Sonic the Hedgehog for the movie

3905
03:56:31,560 --> 03:56:36,280
Speaker 1: what used to make Sonic fan comics and then got

3906
03:56:36,360 --> 03:56:38,640
Speaker 1: hired to make the actual official Sonic comics. Then they

3907
03:56:38,680 --> 03:56:40,880
Speaker 1: got hired to fix them. They got hired to fix

3908
03:56:40,960 --> 03:56:44,480
Speaker 1: the horrible movie design. So yeah, say it has been

3909
03:56:44,560 --> 03:56:48,760
Speaker 1: very good about like not being horrible about like copyright

3910
03:56:48,800 --> 03:56:51,480
Speaker 1: stuff and trademark stuff. They've like really encouraged it because

3911
03:56:51,600 --> 03:56:54,440
Speaker 1: it turns out when you when you yourself don't make

3912
03:56:54,480 --> 03:56:57,760
Speaker 1: good games, you need to rely on fans to actually

3913
03:56:57,840 --> 03:57:00,160
Speaker 1: make the good games. So we get we so wee

3914
03:57:00,240 --> 03:57:03,080
Speaker 1: that's how you get beautiful creations like the Sonic Dreams collection,

3915
03:57:03,240 --> 03:57:06,280
Speaker 1: which is a heartwarming, nostalgic look at Sonic through the

3916
03:57:06,320 --> 03:57:11,040
Speaker 1: Ages um and other great games like Sonic Mania, which,

3917
03:57:11,160 --> 03:57:14,960
Speaker 1: so we can compare this to like a Nintendo who

3918
03:57:15,160 --> 03:57:19,080
Speaker 1: unfortunately makes good games um, but also hates when fans

3919
03:57:19,160 --> 03:57:22,000
Speaker 1: make games or do like emulation or any like ports.

3920
03:57:22,360 --> 03:57:25,800
Speaker 1: They will clamp down on that so fast. If you

3921
03:57:26,000 --> 03:57:29,560
Speaker 1: ever emulate the Nintendo game, you know, watch Watch your back,

3922
03:57:30,040 --> 03:57:32,360
Speaker 1: there will be there will be men in black studits

3923
03:57:32,400 --> 03:57:36,360
Speaker 1: following you around, just you know, like to do understanding

3924
03:57:36,400 --> 03:57:38,680
Speaker 1: of like how far this goes? Right, So super smash

3925
03:57:38,720 --> 03:57:42,280
Speaker 1: Bros And Bile. This game is like maybe older than Garrison.

3926
03:57:42,520 --> 03:57:45,200
Speaker 1: It is. I think I actually don't know what that treade,

3927
03:57:45,240 --> 03:57:47,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, literally old and Garrison, right, this game has

3928
03:57:47,640 --> 03:57:50,960
Speaker 1: a still still to this day, Like copies of this

3929
03:57:51,000 --> 03:57:53,720
Speaker 1: game are extremely expensive because there's an enormous professional scene

3930
03:57:53,720 --> 03:57:58,720
Speaker 1: around it. Uh. Nintendo like basically was working to actively

3931
03:57:58,840 --> 03:58:02,640
Speaker 1: smash them because they were they were playing a yeah yeah,

3932
03:58:03,080 --> 03:58:05,240
Speaker 1: because they because they were playing on like an emulated

3933
03:58:05,840 --> 03:58:08,000
Speaker 1: like they're playing an emulated version of it for tournaments

3934
03:58:08,040 --> 03:58:12,880
Speaker 1: because emulated software. Yeah yeah. And Nintendo again, who is

3935
03:58:13,080 --> 03:58:17,240
Speaker 1: literally getting like millions of views of completely free good

3936
03:58:17,320 --> 03:58:21,440
Speaker 1: publicity was like, no, we hate you. Nintendo will like

3937
03:58:21,880 --> 03:58:25,560
Speaker 1: this when people use they're they're like their their content

3938
03:58:25,640 --> 03:58:27,640
Speaker 1: and stuff in ways that are not not non official.

3939
03:58:28,360 --> 03:58:30,720
Speaker 1: And because they make decent games, they can actually get

3940
03:58:30,760 --> 03:58:33,920
Speaker 1: away with that. Um, Sega, let's not make decent games

3941
03:58:34,000 --> 03:58:36,400
Speaker 1: that are questioning, So they have to rely on fans

3942
03:58:36,480 --> 03:58:38,600
Speaker 1: doing that. But yeah, that's the reason why Sonic is

3943
03:58:38,640 --> 03:58:41,080
Speaker 1: still a thing, just because fans have have been able

3944
03:58:41,160 --> 03:58:45,000
Speaker 1: to you know, through through piracy, through emulation, through creating,

3945
03:58:45,240 --> 03:58:48,000
Speaker 1: through ucing like Sonic code to code their own games

3946
03:58:48,360 --> 03:58:50,600
Speaker 1: all stuffs. Is the reason why that's still like a

3947
03:58:50,680 --> 03:58:53,480
Speaker 1: cultural staple that is releasing a new movie next month.

3948
03:58:53,560 --> 03:58:55,640
Speaker 1: But I'm very excited about I'm very excited about some

3949
03:58:55,800 --> 03:58:58,000
Speaker 1: Sonic the Headshug too. It's gonna be, It's gonna be.

3950
03:58:58,440 --> 03:59:01,120
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I'm thinking it could we could finally clamp

3951
03:59:01,160 --> 03:59:04,720
Speaker 1: down on the video game Oscar this time. I feel it. Well,

3952
03:59:04,840 --> 03:59:06,760
Speaker 1: that's that's look, this is this this this is just

3953
03:59:06,960 --> 03:59:11,160
Speaker 1: because Ace Attorney got Robbed. Okay, greatest movie of all time.

3954
03:59:13,160 --> 03:59:15,560
Speaker 1: That is that is my little side bit about about

3955
03:59:15,920 --> 03:59:20,200
Speaker 1: about about Sega. Um. Yeah, we should also briefly mentioned

3956
03:59:20,280 --> 03:59:22,640
Speaker 1: that Nintendo just like put literally put a guy in

3957
03:59:22,760 --> 03:59:26,880
Speaker 1: prison for helping for helping jailibrate consoles like put put

3958
03:59:26,960 --> 03:59:31,680
Speaker 1: a man in prison for this for modifying people's software

3959
03:59:31,680 --> 03:59:33,680
Speaker 1: and a game console. I guess the other thing I'll

3960
03:59:33,720 --> 03:59:36,320
Speaker 1: talk about is, like, I mean, part of the reason

3961
03:59:36,320 --> 03:59:38,480
Speaker 1: why I really don't like digital ordership of media is

3962
03:59:38,480 --> 03:59:41,280
Speaker 1: because you don't actually own the thing. You own a

3963
03:59:41,400 --> 03:59:44,040
Speaker 1: license to use the content as long as the online

3964
03:59:44,080 --> 03:59:46,520
Speaker 1: services active. So even if you buy a game on

3965
03:59:47,240 --> 03:59:50,160
Speaker 1: you know, the Nintendo Switch Store, you're not actually buying

3966
03:59:50,200 --> 03:59:52,000
Speaker 1: the game, you're buying a license to use the game.

3967
03:59:52,280 --> 03:59:54,200
Speaker 1: The same thing for whether you're buying media on like

3968
03:59:54,280 --> 03:59:56,960
Speaker 1: Amazon Prime, right, it's it's it's it's the same thing

3969
03:59:57,040 --> 03:59:58,680
Speaker 1: if if you're if you're buying digital copy of it,

3970
03:59:59,080 --> 04:00:01,440
Speaker 1: it's a license to use it, so you can take

3971
04:00:01,600 --> 04:00:03,960
Speaker 1: You know, what Nintendo has done a few years ago

3972
04:00:04,280 --> 04:00:07,040
Speaker 1: is they shut down the U Shop channel, which means

3973
04:00:07,080 --> 04:00:09,160
Speaker 1: if you bought a game and it wasn't creanty downloaded,

3974
04:00:09,480 --> 04:00:11,600
Speaker 1: you can now you've just it's gone. You just cannot

3975
04:00:11,640 --> 04:00:13,720
Speaker 1: you cannot play it anymore because they just completely took

3976
04:00:13,800 --> 04:00:16,600
Speaker 1: service down. So you don't actually you're not you're not

3977
04:00:16,600 --> 04:00:18,440
Speaker 1: actually buying the thing, you're just buying license to use

3978
04:00:18,480 --> 04:00:20,720
Speaker 1: the thing. Now. They did the same thing a few

3979
04:00:20,760 --> 04:00:23,440
Speaker 1: months ago for the w U Shop channel and the

3980
04:00:23,520 --> 04:00:26,960
Speaker 1: three D S channel. So yeah, rip ripped to that.

3981
04:00:27,800 --> 04:00:30,160
Speaker 1: If you, if you, if you have, if you bought

3982
04:00:30,200 --> 04:00:33,360
Speaker 1: games on there that we're not currently running, then you

3983
04:00:33,440 --> 04:00:35,360
Speaker 1: cannot get them anymore. They're just gone, like you can,

3984
04:00:35,480 --> 04:00:38,360
Speaker 1: they're just lost, lost of time. Well and you know,

3985
04:00:38,440 --> 04:00:40,760
Speaker 1: and again if if you, if you modified the software

3986
04:00:40,840 --> 04:00:43,400
Speaker 1: on the game console that you like nominally own in

3987
04:00:43,560 --> 04:00:45,560
Speaker 1: order to play the games that you bought and paid for,

3988
04:00:45,680 --> 04:00:48,240
Speaker 1: they will throw you in prison. Nintendo will send men

3989
04:00:48,320 --> 04:00:51,200
Speaker 1: in suits to come and get you and throw you

3990
04:00:51,320 --> 04:00:56,080
Speaker 1: in the prison. Yeah. Who he it's a it's a Mario.

3991
04:00:56,160 --> 04:01:00,480
Speaker 1: It's a Mario joke, everybody. Um. Yes, So it's the

3992
04:01:00,520 --> 04:01:02,880
Speaker 1: same thing with like subscription services. Like obviously, if you

3993
04:01:02,920 --> 04:01:05,880
Speaker 1: have a subscription service, you don't own the content you're watching.

3994
04:01:06,080 --> 04:01:08,200
Speaker 1: You are just getting permission to use it from a

3995
04:01:08,200 --> 04:01:10,440
Speaker 1: certain amount of time. So this is obviously, this is

3996
04:01:10,520 --> 04:01:13,400
Speaker 1: this is more obvious. Right, you don't owe what's on Netflix.

3997
04:01:13,440 --> 04:01:16,200
Speaker 1: You just are able to watch what Netflix has legal

3998
04:01:16,320 --> 04:01:19,000
Speaker 1: rights to show. But you even see this thing extended

3999
04:01:19,040 --> 04:01:23,800
Speaker 1: to like cars, like Toyota was was trying out a

4000
04:01:23,840 --> 04:01:26,640
Speaker 1: program and that this may even it may even still

4001
04:01:26,640 --> 04:01:29,520
Speaker 1: be active for some cars where you need a subscription

4002
04:01:29,560 --> 04:01:33,760
Speaker 1: service to use the key fob on your cars like

4003
04:01:33,840 --> 04:01:37,240
Speaker 1: automatic like like door locking like fob, like you need

4004
04:01:37,280 --> 04:01:40,280
Speaker 1: a subscription to use that service of it. Just like why,

4005
04:01:40,440 --> 04:01:43,680
Speaker 1: Like it's it's just turning everything, it's turning everything into

4006
04:01:43,800 --> 04:01:46,160
Speaker 1: us to us like a subscription service. It's horrible, like

4007
04:01:46,200 --> 04:01:49,440
Speaker 1: everything is becoming a new subscription service, a new a

4008
04:01:49,480 --> 04:01:51,720
Speaker 1: new thing to get your monthly payments for. It's it's

4009
04:01:51,880 --> 04:01:55,320
Speaker 1: it's awful, like you don't actually buy things anymore. It's

4010
04:01:55,360 --> 04:01:59,160
Speaker 1: just a subscription services and digital copies. It's not nothing

4011
04:01:59,320 --> 04:02:02,040
Speaker 1: is nothing is actually the thing anymore? Yeah, it's it's

4012
04:02:02,080 --> 04:02:05,280
Speaker 1: it's all just rent extraction and the entire economy. Instead

4013
04:02:05,320 --> 04:02:07,480
Speaker 1: of you know, having a thing, they figured out way,

4014
04:02:07,520 --> 04:02:09,800
Speaker 1: what if we just distract rent and then you also

4015
04:02:09,920 --> 04:02:11,960
Speaker 1: don't own it. The same thing with like Tesla cars

4016
04:02:12,000 --> 04:02:15,920
Speaker 1: you have to like buy by you know, upgrades via

4017
04:02:16,240 --> 04:02:19,880
Speaker 1: software that are already built in and like subscribe to

4018
04:02:20,000 --> 04:02:23,960
Speaker 1: keep your car running nicely. Like what it's not like no, yeah,

4019
04:02:24,360 --> 04:02:26,320
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna I'm gonna go on a very small

4020
04:02:26,400 --> 04:02:28,840
Speaker 1: gamer rent here because this this is a this is

4021
04:02:28,880 --> 04:02:30,840
Speaker 1: a thing. A lot a lot of the worst practices

4022
04:02:30,880 --> 04:02:33,480
Speaker 1: for this origidated gaming and this this was this was

4023
04:02:33,560 --> 04:02:35,680
Speaker 1: a big fight back in like the early thousand pens

4024
04:02:35,720 --> 04:02:38,320
Speaker 1: about okay, if you buy a game, right, do you

4025
04:02:38,520 --> 04:02:41,040
Speaker 1: own everything on the game? And there was a huge

4026
04:02:41,080 --> 04:02:43,960
Speaker 1: fight about you know, they'd have these like delayed DLC,

4027
04:02:44,240 --> 04:02:46,000
Speaker 1: like they have these new content packages that would be

4028
04:02:46,080 --> 04:02:47,880
Speaker 1: on the disc right that you've bought, but you can't

4029
04:02:47,920 --> 04:02:50,480
Speaker 1: access it unless you pay the money. And this was

4030
04:02:50,560 --> 04:02:53,680
Speaker 1: like a fight and some gamers were like, you know,

4031
04:02:53,720 --> 04:02:56,640
Speaker 1: they're trying to fight it, right, but most gamers didn't care.

4032
04:02:56,840 --> 04:02:58,840
Speaker 1: And then they became the weaponized shock troops to the

4033
04:02:58,880 --> 04:03:00,760
Speaker 1: far right instead of you know, dealing with this ship.

4034
04:03:00,840 --> 04:03:03,240
Speaker 1: And now literally everything has fucking day and day one

4035
04:03:03,320 --> 04:03:06,000
Speaker 1: DLC on it that you buy the thing, you don't

4036
04:03:06,040 --> 04:03:08,240
Speaker 1: even get all you have to you have to buy

4037
04:03:08,320 --> 04:03:10,440
Speaker 1: the if you have to buy the season pass to

4038
04:03:10,600 --> 04:03:12,920
Speaker 1: get all the content in the future. It's like you

4039
04:03:12,960 --> 04:03:14,560
Speaker 1: have to buy the season pass for your car to

4040
04:03:14,640 --> 04:03:18,520
Speaker 1: work properly. Yeah, so this is just how it started

4041
04:03:18,560 --> 04:03:21,000
Speaker 1: with start started with the season past for sixty for

4042
04:03:21,040 --> 04:03:23,520
Speaker 1: a sixty dollar game to then buy season pass to

4043
04:03:23,560 --> 04:03:26,440
Speaker 1: get more of the game, and now it's for your

4044
04:03:29,200 --> 04:03:33,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's fun. It's it's not, it's it's kind

4045
04:03:33,480 --> 04:03:35,920
Speaker 1: of sucks. So but yeah, a lot of these, a

4046
04:03:36,000 --> 04:03:38,240
Speaker 1: lot of these like play to win practices, these like

4047
04:03:38,400 --> 04:03:41,160
Speaker 1: free models which then like which lead into like a

4048
04:03:41,200 --> 04:03:45,000
Speaker 1: subscription service based model. Um have did have definitely started

4049
04:03:45,160 --> 04:03:49,320
Speaker 1: in online gaming, and it's yeah, it's it's really frustrating

4050
04:03:49,400 --> 04:03:52,800
Speaker 1: because as we'll talk about here in a bit, like

4051
04:03:54,040 --> 04:03:56,720
Speaker 1: the Sega model is like better, Like turns out when

4052
04:03:56,760 --> 04:03:59,960
Speaker 1: you encourage your fans to play around with the stuff,

4053
04:04:00,480 --> 04:04:02,640
Speaker 1: it only helps your property. Like that's the reason why

4054
04:04:02,720 --> 04:04:04,960
Speaker 1: they there's still Sonic March available now and it's not

4055
04:04:05,080 --> 04:04:07,560
Speaker 1: like a dead franchise. It's because they like because they

4056
04:04:07,560 --> 04:04:10,160
Speaker 1: allowed that to happen. So it's actually really cool when

4057
04:04:10,200 --> 04:04:12,560
Speaker 1: we're allowed to access free information and play with it

4058
04:04:12,840 --> 04:04:15,520
Speaker 1: how we want to, instead of like having this weird

4059
04:04:15,640 --> 04:04:20,800
Speaker 1: strict copyright like rules for not allowing certain usage of

4060
04:04:20,880 --> 04:04:23,360
Speaker 1: certain things. Like it's it's it's not. It's not great

4061
04:04:23,440 --> 04:04:27,640
Speaker 1: when you're restricting like emulation, restricting fan games, restricting the

4062
04:04:27,760 --> 04:04:30,520
Speaker 1: access to information. It's not, it's not it's it's not

4063
04:04:30,720 --> 04:04:33,040
Speaker 1: it's not fun, but yeah, this is kind of it's

4064
04:04:33,080 --> 04:04:35,320
Speaker 1: kind of place into why I am very skeptical of

4065
04:04:35,360 --> 04:04:38,080
Speaker 1: digital media, which is why I start started collecting Blue

4066
04:04:38,160 --> 04:04:40,240
Speaker 1: Rays and all of all the things they like, because

4067
04:04:40,840 --> 04:04:43,000
Speaker 1: I've boughtened things on Amazon Prime which are now no

4068
04:04:43,080 --> 04:04:45,600
Speaker 1: longer available on Amazon Prime and that sucks. So like,

4069
04:04:45,760 --> 04:04:49,560
Speaker 1: why do that instead just by your physical copy? Yeah? Well,

4070
04:04:49,880 --> 04:04:51,600
Speaker 1: the thing is like it didn't and it's so true

4071
04:04:51,600 --> 04:04:53,320
Speaker 1: to some extent, like if if you buy physical copies,

4072
04:04:53,360 --> 04:04:55,320
Speaker 1: like it didn't used to be like this, like Blue

4073
04:04:55,400 --> 04:04:58,560
Speaker 1: Rays used to it to some extense, so dubious the

4074
04:04:59,760 --> 04:05:02,200
Speaker 1: most times. Yeah, but like like if you buy the

4075
04:05:02,240 --> 04:05:04,240
Speaker 1: physical copy of it, they will give you a code

4076
04:05:04,320 --> 04:05:07,560
Speaker 1: that lets you use the online version, a digital download code. Yeah. Yeah,

4077
04:05:07,880 --> 04:05:10,680
Speaker 1: and you know that's a much better way of the

4078
04:05:10,800 --> 04:05:14,320
Speaker 1: thing working than uh, instead of you know, you don't

4079
04:05:14,360 --> 04:05:16,320
Speaker 1: buying it, you don't have the physical product, and also

4080
04:05:16,360 --> 04:05:21,440
Speaker 1: they can take it away from you. Yeah. It's I'll

4081
04:05:21,480 --> 04:05:23,440
Speaker 1: circle back to this idea towards the end, but I

4082
04:05:23,520 --> 04:05:24,600
Speaker 1: kind of want to, I want I want to a

4083
04:05:24,760 --> 04:05:27,520
Speaker 1: little bit segue to like the idea of the same

4084
04:05:27,560 --> 04:05:32,480
Speaker 1: type of like paywalling subscription service issues, and like the

4085
04:05:32,520 --> 04:05:36,520
Speaker 1: restriction of for information regarding like online news. So you know,

4086
04:05:36,640 --> 04:05:40,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people, whether they be like reporters, editors, authors,

4087
04:05:40,760 --> 04:05:43,880
Speaker 1: or just annoying people online. Um. But there's a decent

4088
04:05:43,920 --> 04:05:46,720
Speaker 1: collection of people that perpetuate the notion that readers or

4089
04:05:46,800 --> 04:05:50,240
Speaker 1: consumers are actually responsible for the dire straits of the

4090
04:05:50,360 --> 04:05:54,760
Speaker 1: media industry. But the problem with journalism and many other

4091
04:05:54,880 --> 04:05:58,760
Speaker 1: media you know industries. But the problem isn't that people

4092
04:05:58,760 --> 04:06:02,160
Speaker 1: aren't paying for news. The problem is that newspapers and

4093
04:06:02,240 --> 04:06:05,880
Speaker 1: outlets are being decimated and dismantled by hedge funds, capital

4094
04:06:05,920 --> 04:06:10,560
Speaker 1: investment firms, venture capitalists, and tech companies in search of profit. Um.

4095
04:06:10,640 --> 04:06:12,920
Speaker 1: You can look at how Facebook tricked a whole bunch

4096
04:06:12,920 --> 04:06:16,480
Speaker 1: of companies and just switching over to video content, and

4097
04:06:16,680 --> 04:06:18,880
Speaker 1: then a whole bunch of companies we had to fire

4098
04:06:18,960 --> 04:06:20,920
Speaker 1: tons of people because there was a lie. You can

4099
04:06:21,000 --> 04:06:25,960
Speaker 1: look at how Sinclair Broadcasting dominates local news channels and websites, um,

4100
04:06:26,120 --> 04:06:29,040
Speaker 1: and how well established local papers are struggling while big

4101
04:06:29,120 --> 04:06:34,080
Speaker 1: companies buy up all the competition. So it's it's it's

4102
04:06:34,560 --> 04:06:37,040
Speaker 1: especially the venture capitalist thing is actually a really uh

4103
04:06:37,880 --> 04:06:42,600
Speaker 1: is a really interesting idea that has been documented decently

4104
04:06:42,680 --> 04:06:44,640
Speaker 1: well and in a bed, I'll teach you how to

4105
04:06:44,720 --> 04:06:48,840
Speaker 1: bypass uh newspaper headlines via different methods. But there's this

4106
04:06:49,000 --> 04:06:52,760
Speaker 1: actually good article in the Washington Post um that is

4107
04:06:52,880 --> 04:06:56,880
Speaker 1: titled as a secretive hedge fund gets its newspapers, journalists

4108
04:06:56,920 --> 04:06:59,200
Speaker 1: are fighting back. It kind of just details all of

4109
04:06:59,240 --> 04:07:01,720
Speaker 1: the different hedge fund adventure capitalists firms instead of like

4110
04:07:02,400 --> 04:07:06,360
Speaker 1: just totally destroyed so many local papers throughout the entire country.

4111
04:07:06,440 --> 04:07:09,200
Speaker 1: It's actually kind of surprising once you learn how many

4112
04:07:09,320 --> 04:07:13,000
Speaker 1: of these papers are just getting destroyed by like just

4113
04:07:13,240 --> 04:07:15,320
Speaker 1: a few, like just like a few hedge funds are

4114
04:07:15,360 --> 04:07:18,440
Speaker 1: just doing all this damage. And it's it's like, yeah,

4115
04:07:18,520 --> 04:07:21,400
Speaker 1: I mean this is why the current like journalism industry

4116
04:07:21,480 --> 04:07:23,360
Speaker 1: kind of sucks right now, is because of these types

4117
04:07:23,400 --> 04:07:26,480
Speaker 1: of practices. And I mean, like no one likes it,

4118
04:07:26,560 --> 04:07:30,400
Speaker 1: like no one's happy with it, Like everyone hates journalism.

4119
04:07:30,680 --> 04:07:33,920
Speaker 1: Journalists hate journalism, people who read journalism hates journalism, like

4120
04:07:34,160 --> 04:07:38,640
Speaker 1: activists hate journalism, like everyone's met at it um. And yeah,

4121
04:07:38,720 --> 04:07:40,800
Speaker 1: you can look at these these hedge funds and venture

4122
04:07:40,840 --> 04:07:44,840
Speaker 1: capitalists who are just like making it such an impossible industry. Uh,

4123
04:07:44,960 --> 04:07:46,320
Speaker 1: and then you know how you have like you have

4124
04:07:46,440 --> 04:07:49,720
Speaker 1: internet sites and culture sites like Vice, BuzzFeed and Cracked,

4125
04:07:50,120 --> 04:07:52,400
Speaker 1: who had to frequently lay off large swaths of their

4126
04:07:52,520 --> 04:07:55,880
Speaker 1: editorial and writing teams, whether for like union reasons or

4127
04:07:56,000 --> 04:07:58,440
Speaker 1: because the company made failed attempts to chase some big

4128
04:07:58,520 --> 04:08:02,680
Speaker 1: tech companies or made your giants you know, proposed money,

4129
04:08:03,200 --> 04:08:06,320
Speaker 1: like in the Facebook switching over to video content kind

4130
04:08:06,360 --> 04:08:09,120
Speaker 1: of debacle that happened a few years ago, and like

4131
04:08:10,080 --> 04:08:13,120
Speaker 1: it's it's, it's it's understandable why these writers, artists, the

4132
04:08:13,160 --> 04:08:16,560
Speaker 1: journalists are frustrated because, yeah, the work is hard and

4133
04:08:16,600 --> 04:08:19,000
Speaker 1: the salaries are low. Well, the work should be hard,

4134
04:08:19,000 --> 04:08:21,040
Speaker 1: and some people kind of slack off, but you know,

4135
04:08:21,440 --> 04:08:24,920
Speaker 1: for the good journalism is more is challenging, and salaries

4136
04:08:24,960 --> 04:08:29,000
Speaker 1: typically aren't great. But even if audience monetary is support,

4137
04:08:29,240 --> 04:08:32,560
Speaker 1: where the solution to making creative and writing industries more

4138
04:08:32,600 --> 04:08:37,000
Speaker 1: profitable again, the kind of anti piracy folks would still

4139
04:08:37,040 --> 04:08:40,840
Speaker 1: be missing. A fundamental point is that kind of the

4140
04:08:41,680 --> 04:08:44,680
Speaker 1: the pro paywell people want you to get it through

4141
04:08:44,720 --> 04:08:48,360
Speaker 1: your head that journalism is just like other types of

4142
04:08:48,400 --> 04:08:50,800
Speaker 1: things you buy, whether it be food, you know, alcohol

4143
04:08:51,240 --> 04:08:54,080
Speaker 1: or entertainment um saying you know, all these things. You know,

4144
04:08:54,520 --> 04:08:58,080
Speaker 1: Netflix isn't free. You know, Coca Cola isn't free. Right,

4145
04:08:58,480 --> 04:09:00,600
Speaker 1: This isn't journalism's fault. It's just how the world works.

4146
04:09:00,640 --> 04:09:02,120
Speaker 1: You have to buy it to use it. It's you know,

4147
04:09:02,200 --> 04:09:03,680
Speaker 1: it costs money to make. You have to buy it

4148
04:09:03,720 --> 04:09:05,920
Speaker 1: to use it. It's just it's it's it's like, it's

4149
04:09:06,000 --> 04:09:08,400
Speaker 1: dumb to think otherwise. This is kind of their framework,

4150
04:09:09,040 --> 04:09:13,000
Speaker 1: But I beg to differ because enjoying art and worthwhile journalism,

4151
04:09:13,240 --> 04:09:15,320
Speaker 1: I think should always have the option of being free,

4152
04:09:15,520 --> 04:09:18,720
Speaker 1: because when information is in the public interest, it should

4153
04:09:18,760 --> 04:09:21,560
Speaker 1: just always be available to everybody, whether or not you've

4154
04:09:21,560 --> 04:09:24,880
Speaker 1: already used up your three free articles. Like this is

4155
04:09:24,960 --> 04:09:28,240
Speaker 1: really important, especially now when there's you know, the whole

4156
04:09:28,440 --> 04:09:32,160
Speaker 1: the whole war thing happening, and finding like pay all

4157
04:09:32,160 --> 04:09:36,120
Speaker 1: the articles about it is incredibly frustrating. Uh. And yeah,

4158
04:09:36,160 --> 04:09:38,880
Speaker 1: I mean there was even when the there was a

4159
04:09:39,040 --> 04:09:42,400
Speaker 1: right wing right ring extremist who opened fire and killed

4160
04:09:42,480 --> 04:09:46,680
Speaker 1: someone at a Portland's uh black Lives Matter protests a

4161
04:09:46,680 --> 04:09:49,720
Speaker 1: few weeks ago. Uh, that that is you know, still

4162
04:09:49,800 --> 04:09:52,480
Speaker 1: definitely impacting the city because it was it's it's still

4163
04:09:52,600 --> 04:09:55,000
Speaker 1: very recent, but a lot of the news coverage. First

4164
04:09:55,000 --> 04:09:57,680
Speaker 1: of all, it wasn't great. Uh, there was a whole

4165
04:09:57,680 --> 04:10:01,760
Speaker 1: bunch of news coverage was like was parroting the police

4166
04:10:01,840 --> 04:10:04,720
Speaker 1: lies and framing the framing the attacker is like an

4167
04:10:04,760 --> 04:10:07,680
Speaker 1: innocent homeowner who was defending himself. It was pretty gross.

4168
04:10:08,120 --> 04:10:10,040
Speaker 1: But even when even when the news articles started to

4169
04:10:10,160 --> 04:10:13,680
Speaker 1: like correct their previous agree with errors, um, almost all

4170
04:10:13,760 --> 04:10:15,760
Speaker 1: of it was paid walled, like all like all, like

4171
04:10:15,760 --> 04:10:17,280
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of stuff was pay welled about it.

4172
04:10:17,520 --> 04:10:20,520
Speaker 1: And that's incredibly frustrating because this is like, you know,

4173
04:10:20,600 --> 04:10:23,360
Speaker 1: when information is in the public interest, it should be

4174
04:10:23,520 --> 04:10:26,280
Speaker 1: free to access. Like that's just there's like a good

4175
04:10:26,360 --> 04:10:30,360
Speaker 1: moral thing like uh and even um, and we've seen it.

4176
04:10:30,400 --> 04:10:32,880
Speaker 1: We've seen this before. Back in when the plague was

4177
04:10:33,400 --> 04:10:36,400
Speaker 1: a new thing, news organizations across the country started to

4178
04:10:36,480 --> 04:10:40,600
Speaker 1: lift pay walls to share coverage of the coronavirus pandemic um,

4179
04:10:41,040 --> 04:10:44,760
Speaker 1: which was great. And you know, you can you can

4180
04:10:44,840 --> 04:10:48,160
Speaker 1: obviously see that once that changed over, a lot of

4181
04:10:48,200 --> 04:10:51,800
Speaker 1: people who we're making this happen behind the scenes probably

4182
04:10:51,840 --> 04:10:54,240
Speaker 1: hoped that which just convince people to become paying customers.

4183
04:10:54,600 --> 04:10:56,640
Speaker 1: But it was still like that's still the way things

4184
04:10:56,720 --> 04:10:58,920
Speaker 1: should be, is to have have the option of it

4185
04:10:59,000 --> 04:11:02,280
Speaker 1: being free than having the option to donate. And this

4186
04:11:02,400 --> 04:11:05,880
Speaker 1: actually seems to be kind of the trend. Uh. The

4187
04:11:05,960 --> 04:11:10,240
Speaker 1: University of Texas at Austin surveyed about like a thousand

4188
04:11:10,640 --> 04:11:14,000
Speaker 1: Chicago residents about their local news consumption, and they found

4189
04:11:14,040 --> 04:11:16,080
Speaker 1: that respondents were more willing to give a ten dollar

4190
04:11:16,160 --> 04:11:19,320
Speaker 1: donation to support a free news site than pay ten

4191
04:11:19,400 --> 04:11:25,200
Speaker 1: dollars for a subscription to access premium news content. So yeah,

4192
04:11:25,840 --> 04:11:29,000
Speaker 1: like that's and that I definitely share that same like, uh,

4193
04:11:29,240 --> 04:11:32,560
Speaker 1: that same idea. I will weigh sooner donate money to

4194
04:11:32,920 --> 04:11:35,440
Speaker 1: a newspaper that I enjoy that is also free, that

4195
04:11:35,560 --> 04:11:38,800
Speaker 1: I will pay ten dollars a month to read subscription

4196
04:11:39,040 --> 04:11:44,320
Speaker 1: service based news. It's a it's because it turns out

4197
04:11:44,400 --> 04:11:47,560
Speaker 1: when you like this, this applies to all cyps of media.

4198
04:11:47,600 --> 04:11:51,200
Speaker 1: But like when you enjoy media, you want to support

4199
04:11:51,240 --> 04:11:54,040
Speaker 1: its creators, whether that be anime, whether that be Sonic

4200
04:11:54,160 --> 04:11:57,440
Speaker 1: the fucking Headgehog, whether that be whether that be news

4201
04:11:57,640 --> 04:11:59,840
Speaker 1: or books. Right, if you like something, you're gonna buy it.

4202
04:12:00,000 --> 04:12:02,160
Speaker 1: I got to introduced to te Lemony, stickets books to

4203
04:12:02,160 --> 04:12:04,280
Speaker 1: be the library, and now I bought lots because I

4204
04:12:04,400 --> 04:12:06,280
Speaker 1: wanted to I wanted to buy the books from the

4205
04:12:06,320 --> 04:12:11,240
Speaker 1: person that I like. Yeah, and there are entire like industries.

4206
04:12:11,280 --> 04:12:13,160
Speaker 1: I mean that literally just work on this person. This

4207
04:12:13,400 --> 04:12:17,320
Speaker 1: is why free to play games work. Yeah, exactly. There

4208
04:12:17,360 --> 04:12:19,440
Speaker 1: there's another conversation with free to play games here about

4209
04:12:19,480 --> 04:12:22,880
Speaker 1: like addiction and gambling and manipulation about that, but like that,

4210
04:12:23,040 --> 04:12:26,840
Speaker 1: that's you know, like setting that aside for a second.

4211
04:12:26,920 --> 04:12:30,480
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, these things if if if people didn't want,

4212
04:12:30,560 --> 04:12:33,000
Speaker 1: if didn't spend money on things they like, free to

4213
04:12:33,080 --> 04:12:37,520
Speaker 1: pay games would not work like fundamentally as a model. Yeah, No,

4214
04:12:37,680 --> 04:12:40,400
Speaker 1: definitely definitely the idea of like, yeah, you get someone

4215
04:12:40,480 --> 04:12:42,800
Speaker 1: starts to enjoying the service, then they start paying for it,

4216
04:12:42,920 --> 04:12:47,240
Speaker 1: whether it be buying useless you know, skin for whatever

4217
04:12:47,480 --> 04:12:50,000
Speaker 1: third person shooter you have, or that be you know,

4218
04:12:50,120 --> 04:12:54,040
Speaker 1: buying books or copies of the film or like anime,

4219
04:12:54,200 --> 04:12:57,680
Speaker 1: body pillows whatever like you do. You want to financially

4220
04:12:57,680 --> 04:12:59,360
Speaker 1: support the things that you enjoy. This is just a

4221
04:12:59,440 --> 04:13:02,520
Speaker 1: part of this is what humans do. So yeah, maybe

4222
04:13:02,560 --> 04:13:04,920
Speaker 1: more stuff should be have the option of being free. Uh,

4223
04:13:05,160 --> 04:13:07,680
Speaker 1: that definitely might take on it. Let's let's have a

4224
04:13:07,720 --> 04:13:10,280
Speaker 1: quick let's have a bit of a speaking of free content.

4225
04:13:10,520 --> 04:13:14,120
Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by these lovely sponsors,

4226
04:13:14,240 --> 04:13:16,920
Speaker 1: so you can listen for free while just skipping the ads.

4227
04:13:17,080 --> 04:13:20,640
Speaker 1: So good for you. We're back and now we're gonna

4228
04:13:20,640 --> 04:13:24,440
Speaker 1: talk about different ways of bypassing pay walls, specifically for

4229
04:13:24,760 --> 04:13:29,120
Speaker 1: online news, because paywalls frustrate me and as someone who

4230
04:13:29,160 --> 04:13:32,000
Speaker 1: likes messing around with kind of computer e stuff. There's

4231
04:13:32,000 --> 04:13:34,360
Speaker 1: definitely a long list of ways to buy pass pay walls,

4232
04:13:34,400 --> 04:13:37,000
Speaker 1: depending on what types of paywalls we are talking about.

4233
04:13:37,480 --> 04:13:40,400
Speaker 1: So types of pay walls there are. There are typically

4234
04:13:40,480 --> 04:13:43,200
Speaker 1: two general types of pay walls. There's hard pay walls

4235
04:13:43,320 --> 04:13:47,000
Speaker 1: and soft pay walls. Um, hard pay walls require payment

4236
04:13:47,240 --> 04:13:50,760
Speaker 1: up front, so usually some some form of subscription fee

4237
04:13:51,000 --> 04:13:55,080
Speaker 1: before accessing any content websites with hard pay walls. Maybe

4238
04:13:55,080 --> 04:13:56,560
Speaker 1: we'll let you lead like a tiny snippet of the

4239
04:13:56,680 --> 04:13:59,760
Speaker 1: article what you need access you need you need to

4240
04:13:59,760 --> 04:14:02,680
Speaker 1: pay subscription to access the full the full content. Soft

4241
04:14:02,720 --> 04:14:07,640
Speaker 1: pay wells are are are typically allow you to read

4242
04:14:07,720 --> 04:14:11,840
Speaker 1: a number of articles before you need to buy buy

4243
04:14:11,880 --> 04:14:14,720
Speaker 1: a subscription. So it's either's you have a set number

4244
04:14:14,760 --> 04:14:17,080
Speaker 1: of articles that you can read for a fixed period

4245
04:14:17,160 --> 04:14:20,000
Speaker 1: or session. Um, you know a lot of a lot

4246
04:14:20,040 --> 04:14:21,880
Speaker 1: of a lot of websites operate like this. Most of

4247
04:14:21,920 --> 04:14:23,840
Speaker 1: the New York Times operates like this. A lot of

4248
04:14:24,080 --> 04:14:25,320
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of news sites have a

4249
04:14:25,360 --> 04:14:27,920
Speaker 1: soft paywall model, which is great because they're typically a

4250
04:14:27,960 --> 04:14:31,720
Speaker 1: little bit easier to bypass the first first method. This

4251
04:14:31,840 --> 04:14:34,040
Speaker 1: works some of the time. It depends on how the

4252
04:14:34,080 --> 04:14:36,960
Speaker 1: website is constructed, but you can try to stop the

4253
04:14:37,040 --> 04:14:41,040
Speaker 1: loading page before it fully loads. UH so generally a

4254
04:14:41,160 --> 04:14:45,080
Speaker 1: quick technique. It's effective on several different types of webpages. UH.

4255
04:14:45,480 --> 04:14:47,120
Speaker 1: You have to stop your browser from fully loading the

4256
04:14:47,160 --> 04:14:49,840
Speaker 1: webpage as soon as your breaser displays the text element

4257
04:14:50,000 --> 04:14:52,120
Speaker 1: of the pay well to content. So you you know,

4258
04:14:52,360 --> 04:14:54,520
Speaker 1: enter a page U R L into the search bar,

4259
04:14:54,920 --> 04:14:57,480
Speaker 1: press enter, and then press the x icon or the

4260
04:14:57,640 --> 04:14:59,400
Speaker 1: escape key as soon as you see some of the

4261
04:14:59,480 --> 04:15:03,720
Speaker 1: text on screen before a paywall window pops up. UM.

4262
04:15:03,840 --> 04:15:06,080
Speaker 1: A major limitation of this is that stopping the website

4263
04:15:06,160 --> 04:15:08,240
Speaker 1: may not load all content elements, so it may only

4264
04:15:08,280 --> 04:15:10,600
Speaker 1: render like a portion of the text, or it may

4265
04:15:10,680 --> 04:15:14,840
Speaker 1: like miss out on like files like images, animations, or videos. UM.

4266
04:15:14,920 --> 04:15:18,480
Speaker 1: And it also depends on the order of which the

4267
04:15:18,560 --> 04:15:21,920
Speaker 1: website loads the page elements. So for example, if the

4268
04:15:22,000 --> 04:15:25,600
Speaker 1: website loads to pay well first, then this trick won't

4269
04:15:25,800 --> 04:15:27,960
Speaker 1: be successful. Also, you gotta have to be kind of

4270
04:15:28,000 --> 04:15:30,400
Speaker 1: pretty fast in order to make this one work. Typically

4271
04:15:30,440 --> 04:15:32,280
Speaker 1: this isn't the first way I do it, because there's

4272
04:15:32,360 --> 04:15:35,440
Speaker 1: generally generally easier ways. But if you can do this,

4273
04:15:35,640 --> 04:15:38,040
Speaker 1: then cool. It's definitely it's definitely a fast one if

4274
04:15:38,080 --> 04:15:41,200
Speaker 1: you can't get it to succeed for soft paywall So

4275
04:15:41,280 --> 04:15:45,920
Speaker 1: like I, I will say the stopping the browser from

4276
04:15:45,960 --> 04:15:50,440
Speaker 1: loading is actually successful at some hard paywall sites because

4277
04:15:50,480 --> 04:15:52,680
Speaker 1: if they do like load a portion of the text

4278
04:15:52,800 --> 04:15:55,840
Speaker 1: to read as like a stippet, sometimes it will actually

4279
04:15:55,840 --> 04:15:57,480
Speaker 1: load the entire text, but then just block it off

4280
04:15:57,520 --> 04:16:00,320
Speaker 1: with a separate window. So sometimes with a hard paywall

4281
04:16:00,360 --> 04:16:02,320
Speaker 1: you can actually stop it via this method. So that's

4282
04:16:02,320 --> 04:16:06,360
Speaker 1: always fun um. But second method, generally more for soft

4283
04:16:06,400 --> 04:16:10,640
Speaker 1: paywalls is for is to delete your pages cookies. So

4284
04:16:10,920 --> 04:16:15,120
Speaker 1: you know, websites store cookies to track your browser um activities,

4285
04:16:15,200 --> 04:16:18,560
Speaker 1: including how much content you backsesst so blog publishers, news

4286
04:16:18,760 --> 04:16:21,600
Speaker 1: newspaper sites can track the number of frege articles you've

4287
04:16:21,600 --> 04:16:24,240
Speaker 1: read using the cookies stored on your browser. If you

4288
04:16:24,320 --> 04:16:28,720
Speaker 1: hit the limit for for non subscribers. If like the

4289
04:16:29,200 --> 04:16:32,720
Speaker 1: limited articles allotted, then you can delete the website cookies

4290
04:16:32,800 --> 04:16:35,800
Speaker 1: to refresh the to refresh that counter and it will

4291
04:16:35,840 --> 04:16:38,840
Speaker 1: possibly reset the limit of articles. Um. You can go

4292
04:16:38,920 --> 04:16:41,040
Speaker 1: to the privacy or security section of your web browsers,

4293
04:16:41,160 --> 04:16:43,040
Speaker 1: like the option that allows you to check the cookies

4294
04:16:43,160 --> 04:16:45,920
Speaker 1: and site for all data, and then search for the

4295
04:16:46,000 --> 04:16:48,440
Speaker 1: website that you're looking for in the in the cookie

4296
04:16:48,520 --> 04:16:51,320
Speaker 1: management page and then click remove all. You can do

4297
04:16:51,440 --> 04:16:54,880
Speaker 1: this on like Firefox, Chrome, Microsoft Edge if you want

4298
04:16:54,880 --> 04:16:59,960
Speaker 1: to use that for some reason. Um Safari. Yeah, well,

4299
04:17:00,560 --> 04:17:03,320
Speaker 1: this trick may not work very well on hard pay

4300
04:17:03,360 --> 04:17:07,240
Speaker 1: walls because it that's that they don't really use cookies

4301
04:17:07,240 --> 04:17:10,000
Speaker 1: for the same purpose. And also you'll have to you know,

4302
04:17:10,320 --> 04:17:12,120
Speaker 1: do if you're doing if you're doing this for soft

4303
04:17:12,160 --> 04:17:13,520
Speaker 1: pay walls, you have to do it every time you

4304
04:17:13,800 --> 04:17:17,920
Speaker 1: you reach the limit. UM. And if this won't work

4305
04:17:18,120 --> 04:17:21,680
Speaker 1: if the website is using other kind of more advanced

4306
04:17:21,720 --> 04:17:25,040
Speaker 1: tools to track your activity like I p logs, right,

4307
04:17:25,200 --> 04:17:27,520
Speaker 1: so if it's tracking your AP data instead of your cookies,

4308
04:17:27,880 --> 04:17:31,120
Speaker 1: then this probably won't work. So this one's this one.

4309
04:17:31,360 --> 04:17:33,320
Speaker 1: I mean you you should clear cookies every once in

4310
04:17:33,360 --> 04:17:36,520
Speaker 1: a while anyway, just like generally a good practice, but

4311
04:17:36,800 --> 04:17:38,520
Speaker 1: to do this all the time, it's kind of a

4312
04:17:38,600 --> 04:17:41,000
Speaker 1: kind of a bit of work, especially because the next

4313
04:17:41,040 --> 04:17:43,640
Speaker 1: method is typically easier and does the same thing, which

4314
04:17:43,760 --> 04:17:47,040
Speaker 1: is just reading articles inside a private or incognito mode

4315
04:17:47,200 --> 04:17:50,880
Speaker 1: or in the tour browser. Um. So, as as as

4316
04:17:50,960 --> 04:17:53,160
Speaker 1: as explained earlier, not all paywalls are about the same.

4317
04:17:53,440 --> 04:17:55,280
Speaker 1: If you know, if a website uses a soft pay wall,

4318
04:17:55,680 --> 04:17:58,520
Speaker 1: you should be able to read a subscription based content

4319
04:17:58,640 --> 04:18:02,200
Speaker 1: through incognito or private browsing because it'll check the it'll

4320
04:18:02,240 --> 04:18:04,400
Speaker 1: it'll check the website into thinking you're a brand new visitor,

4321
04:18:05,320 --> 04:18:08,600
Speaker 1: granting you access to the content before it had before

4322
04:18:08,600 --> 04:18:11,400
Speaker 1: it racks up enough of views to uh to throw

4323
04:18:11,480 --> 04:18:14,000
Speaker 1: up the paywell window. So this is this is a

4324
04:18:14,040 --> 04:18:16,560
Speaker 1: lot easier than just manually to leading the companies every

4325
04:18:16,560 --> 04:18:21,920
Speaker 1: single time. Because yeah, most web browsers do not transmit

4326
04:18:22,080 --> 04:18:26,240
Speaker 1: pre existing cookies onto an incognito or private mode browser mode,

4327
04:18:26,680 --> 04:18:30,240
Speaker 1: so it doesn't switch those back over. And then although

4328
04:18:30,800 --> 04:18:33,680
Speaker 1: the website will deposit new cookies onto your browser during

4329
04:18:33,720 --> 04:18:36,280
Speaker 1: private browsing sessions, they will be removed as soon as

4330
04:18:36,320 --> 04:18:39,440
Speaker 1: you close the window. Uh. One bummer is that some

4331
04:18:39,600 --> 04:18:42,720
Speaker 1: news pages are getting wise and actually are programming their

4332
04:18:42,720 --> 04:18:44,840
Speaker 1: websites to be able to be able to detect if

4333
04:18:44,880 --> 04:18:47,880
Speaker 1: they're opened in a private or browsing mode or even

4334
04:18:47,920 --> 04:18:50,440
Speaker 1: on tour um and they just like won't open. They'll

4335
04:18:50,480 --> 04:18:53,640
Speaker 1: they'll say, sorry, you have to we we've detected that

4336
04:18:53,720 --> 04:18:55,920
Speaker 1: you're using this in private browsing mode to view this content.

4337
04:18:56,520 --> 04:18:59,040
Speaker 1: Boot up a regular browser, which which really sucks for

4338
04:18:59,120 --> 04:19:02,840
Speaker 1: the tour users because a lot of people getore are like, hey, yeah,

4339
04:19:03,200 --> 04:19:05,240
Speaker 1: I'm in China, I'm trying to get past the Great

4340
04:19:05,280 --> 04:19:08,960
Speaker 1: Firewall and fuck you eat ship. You should have somehow

4341
04:19:09,200 --> 04:19:12,200
Speaker 1: paid a subscription service to us to see information on

4342
04:19:12,280 --> 04:19:16,560
Speaker 1: this site that is literally illegal here. Like it's great,

4343
04:19:16,800 --> 04:19:18,960
Speaker 1: it's really bad for people who are like actually facing

4344
04:19:19,000 --> 04:19:23,320
Speaker 1: government censorship who need to use tour to view content.

4345
04:19:23,680 --> 04:19:25,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, that that is Uh, it's what we call

4346
04:19:26,000 --> 04:19:30,000
Speaker 1: a major bomber. Uh A major sucks a major Oh no,

4347
04:19:30,200 --> 04:19:34,480
Speaker 1: capitalism did a whoopsie Um. Yeah, but yeah, this is

4348
04:19:34,520 --> 04:19:36,800
Speaker 1: definitely this is one of the modes I do most often.

4349
04:19:36,920 --> 04:19:38,840
Speaker 1: It's like I can typically get a lot of sites

4350
04:19:38,920 --> 04:19:41,280
Speaker 1: to be able to view through incongo or private or

4351
04:19:41,320 --> 04:19:44,600
Speaker 1: private browsing. But again, it does depend on what the

4352
04:19:44,640 --> 04:19:48,600
Speaker 1: site is. UH is a built to do but bar

4353
04:19:48,720 --> 04:19:51,840
Speaker 1: far my favorite me. Oh yes, I'll mention. Another one

4354
04:19:51,840 --> 04:19:54,240
Speaker 1: that I don't really use very often is the paywall

4355
04:19:54,360 --> 04:19:57,320
Speaker 1: or removable extensions for for your browser, which is like

4356
04:19:57,440 --> 04:20:01,920
Speaker 1: third party browser extensions which UH try to automatically bypass

4357
04:20:01,960 --> 04:20:04,920
Speaker 1: pay walls. These are really hit and miss um and

4358
04:20:04,960 --> 04:20:07,200
Speaker 1: it's they're also a really great way to get nice

4359
04:20:07,520 --> 04:20:11,320
Speaker 1: fancy malware onto your computer. UM, So I would I

4360
04:20:11,440 --> 04:20:14,160
Speaker 1: typically steer clear of this, but there there is allegedly

4361
04:20:14,560 --> 04:20:18,400
Speaker 1: a browser extension called bypass paywalls for Chrome and Firefox

4362
04:20:18,800 --> 04:20:22,000
Speaker 1: that allegedly has been found to be effective, UM that

4363
04:20:22,080 --> 04:20:25,400
Speaker 1: allows you to read the subscription based articles on hundreds

4364
04:20:25,400 --> 04:20:28,640
Speaker 1: of publications like New York Times, Wired, Wall Street Journal,

4365
04:20:28,760 --> 04:20:32,320
Speaker 1: Washington Post. Um, it is it is. It is free,

4366
04:20:32,400 --> 04:20:34,080
Speaker 1: but you have to manually load it onto your browser.

4367
04:20:34,440 --> 04:20:36,680
Speaker 1: And just typically amount a big fan of browser extensions

4368
04:20:36,720 --> 04:20:38,640
Speaker 1: in the first place, so I kind of steer clear

4369
04:20:38,680 --> 04:20:41,680
Speaker 1: of these. But some some some people, some people swear

4370
04:20:41,720 --> 04:20:44,720
Speaker 1: by them, so maybe maybe they can work. They're not

4371
04:20:44,800 --> 04:20:48,320
Speaker 1: They're They're not only my thing. But my favorite method

4372
04:20:49,560 --> 04:20:54,320
Speaker 1: is archive websites, UH, specifically archived dot is. So there

4373
04:20:54,400 --> 04:20:57,360
Speaker 1: are Internet archiving tools that preserve copies of web pages

4374
04:20:57,400 --> 04:21:00,600
Speaker 1: and social media posts for reference purposes, and you can

4375
04:21:00,680 --> 04:21:03,880
Speaker 1: use these tools to access paibled content and read subscription

4376
04:21:03,960 --> 04:21:06,840
Speaker 1: based news articles for free, including a lot of hard

4377
04:21:06,960 --> 04:21:11,360
Speaker 1: payworld pages. Archive dot i S or archive dot is

4378
04:21:11,480 --> 04:21:14,920
Speaker 1: is my favorite one. Um. Also it's it functions under

4379
04:21:15,040 --> 04:21:17,920
Speaker 1: archive dot today. Uh just it just it depends on

4380
04:21:18,000 --> 04:21:20,320
Speaker 1: what surfers they're running at the moment. Of course, there's

4381
04:21:20,320 --> 04:21:23,920
Speaker 1: also the classic and pretty reliable archived dot org, which

4382
04:21:24,000 --> 04:21:27,520
Speaker 1: has a nice calendar feature. But it's definitely good to

4383
04:21:27,600 --> 04:21:30,000
Speaker 1: check both of these because sometimes an article will be

4384
04:21:30,120 --> 04:21:33,080
Speaker 1: archived on archived dot is really easily and it won't

4385
04:21:33,080 --> 04:21:35,080
Speaker 1: be our available on archive dot org. Sometimes it will

4386
04:21:35,080 --> 04:21:37,160
Speaker 1: be on archive dot org and not archive dot is

4387
04:21:37,240 --> 04:21:39,600
Speaker 1: currently the one that's currently live. I think it's not

4388
04:21:39,760 --> 04:21:42,920
Speaker 1: pH It automatically switch is usually I could. I usually

4389
04:21:43,000 --> 04:21:45,480
Speaker 1: just type in our cave dot is um and it

4390
04:21:45,520 --> 04:21:49,280
Speaker 1: switches me over automatically. But yes, there is, there is,

4391
04:21:49,440 --> 04:21:52,480
Speaker 1: there is. There is a few of them. Yeah, yeah,

4392
04:21:52,760 --> 04:21:56,000
Speaker 1: you are right correct. It does automatically revert to archive

4393
04:21:56,040 --> 04:21:59,040
Speaker 1: dot phr at the moment. So yeah, but these these

4394
04:21:59,080 --> 04:22:01,480
Speaker 1: are the ones I use them because people who have

4395
04:22:01,760 --> 04:22:06,160
Speaker 1: access to hard paywalled content will often archives the hard

4396
04:22:06,200 --> 04:22:09,120
Speaker 1: paywalled stuff so it's available to people without the paywall.

4397
04:22:10,120 --> 04:22:13,520
Speaker 1: This this this can include the screenshot mode for archive

4398
04:22:13,560 --> 04:22:16,640
Speaker 1: dot is and the regular archival method for archived dot org.

4399
04:22:17,080 --> 04:22:19,840
Speaker 1: But both these are great UM and they're also really

4400
04:22:19,880 --> 04:22:23,120
Speaker 1: good for looking at past versions of the articles, so

4401
04:22:23,280 --> 04:22:25,040
Speaker 1: you can look to see what how the articles have

4402
04:22:25,200 --> 04:22:28,320
Speaker 1: changed over time, and so is your great just research

4403
04:22:28,400 --> 04:22:30,960
Speaker 1: tools and archive dot is is very easy to even

4404
04:22:31,040 --> 04:22:34,120
Speaker 1: upload stuff yourself, even if you don't have um the paywall,

4405
04:22:35,160 --> 04:22:37,680
Speaker 1: Like even if you're blocked off from reading the full thing,

4406
04:22:38,040 --> 04:22:40,160
Speaker 1: you can try to submit it to our chaive dot

4407
04:22:40,360 --> 04:22:42,360
Speaker 1: is and there's a good chance I'm and actually grab

4408
04:22:42,600 --> 04:22:45,680
Speaker 1: an unpaywalled version of it because because of how because

4409
04:22:45,680 --> 04:22:48,720
Speaker 1: of how the site works. So let's go to archive

4410
04:22:48,760 --> 04:22:51,720
Speaker 1: dot pH r or or archived dot is, enter the

4411
04:22:51,760 --> 04:22:54,080
Speaker 1: web page u r L that you're wanting to access

4412
04:22:54,280 --> 04:22:57,240
Speaker 1: in the designated dialect box at the bottom. It's like

4413
04:22:57,320 --> 04:23:00,520
Speaker 1: to save. It'll go through a little process um and

4414
04:23:00,640 --> 04:23:02,840
Speaker 1: then then you will then you'll be able to select

4415
04:23:02,840 --> 04:23:05,000
Speaker 1: the screenshop mode or the webpage mode and be able

4416
04:23:05,040 --> 04:23:07,800
Speaker 1: to see what type of thing in archives. It's pretty

4417
04:23:07,920 --> 04:23:10,680
Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. Um It's. The last thing I'll mention

4418
04:23:11,040 --> 04:23:14,560
Speaker 1: is outline dot com and twelve foot Ladder. These are

4419
04:23:14,880 --> 04:23:19,080
Speaker 1: web based tools, but not specifically archival sites. They're generally

4420
04:23:19,160 --> 04:23:21,280
Speaker 1: used to just get to the text of an article

4421
04:23:22,120 --> 04:23:26,960
Speaker 1: it would via like web page nonsense and bypassing paywall stuff. Unfortunately,

4422
04:23:27,040 --> 04:23:30,520
Speaker 1: websites have also gotten wise to this, so stuff like

4423
04:23:30,560 --> 04:23:32,520
Speaker 1: New York Times and Wall Street Journal have figured out

4424
04:23:32,520 --> 04:23:34,800
Speaker 1: a way to get to these sites blocked so you

4425
04:23:34,840 --> 04:23:37,440
Speaker 1: cannot use outline dot com or twelve foot Ladder on them,

4426
04:23:37,920 --> 04:23:39,920
Speaker 1: but they still work on stuff like The Washington Post,

4427
04:23:40,040 --> 04:23:43,520
Speaker 1: so it always depends. But I definitely generally will prefer

4428
04:23:43,640 --> 04:23:46,440
Speaker 1: the archive dot is and archive dot org method to

4429
04:23:46,600 --> 04:23:51,520
Speaker 1: viewing any kind of paybled content. Um. Yeah, and that's

4430
04:23:51,560 --> 04:23:53,480
Speaker 1: kind of my I mean, I'm not now, I'm not

4431
04:23:53,520 --> 04:23:56,120
Speaker 1: gonna explain how to do like regular piracy on the

4432
04:23:56,160 --> 04:23:59,440
Speaker 1: podcast because I don't have enough time. But like it's easy.

4433
04:24:00,240 --> 04:24:01,840
Speaker 1: There are there are lots of people who will tell you,

4434
04:24:02,240 --> 04:24:05,560
Speaker 1: I mean, like kiss Cartoon is like a very popular website,

4435
04:24:05,800 --> 04:24:07,640
Speaker 1: Like you don't even need to, like you don't even

4436
04:24:07,680 --> 04:24:09,600
Speaker 1: have to like properly tour and stuff anymore, there is

4437
04:24:09,680 --> 04:24:13,400
Speaker 1: like so much pyraated media. Help. Yeah, and it's like okay,

4438
04:24:13,440 --> 04:24:15,040
Speaker 1: so like you've gotta be a little bit careful with

4439
04:24:15,080 --> 04:24:17,040
Speaker 1: your parting stuff. Sounds like you can get copyright strike,

4440
04:24:17,120 --> 04:24:21,680
Speaker 1: but if you stream it, they don't copy strike you

4441
04:24:21,840 --> 04:24:25,080
Speaker 1: for that. So yeah, yeah, I guess The other thing

4442
04:24:25,120 --> 04:24:28,000
Speaker 1: I will plug is a PLEX, which is a kind

4443
04:24:28,040 --> 04:24:31,400
Speaker 1: of an online movie hosting service like Netflix, except you

4444
04:24:31,600 --> 04:24:34,280
Speaker 1: upload all of the content to it. So let's say

4445
04:24:34,320 --> 04:24:37,160
Speaker 1: you buy Blue Rays, it comes it comes with the

4446
04:24:37,200 --> 04:24:40,160
Speaker 1: digital download code, So now you can upload the digital

4447
04:24:40,240 --> 04:24:44,120
Speaker 1: copy into Plex and watch that wherever you want, as

4448
04:24:44,160 --> 04:24:46,160
Speaker 1: long as you're signed into the Plex account and you

4449
04:24:46,200 --> 04:24:48,720
Speaker 1: actually own the stuff on the service. So as long

4450
04:24:48,760 --> 04:24:50,440
Speaker 1: as the services online, you can use it because you

4451
04:24:50,520 --> 04:24:53,880
Speaker 1: actually own the stuff on it. Um that includes if

4452
04:24:53,920 --> 04:24:56,640
Speaker 1: you have if you have pirated versions of movies downloaded,

4453
04:24:56,640 --> 04:24:59,320
Speaker 1: you can upload this versions onto Plex then then delete

4454
04:24:59,400 --> 04:25:01,560
Speaker 1: the actual hard copies of it on your hard drive.

4455
04:25:01,840 --> 04:25:04,080
Speaker 1: Then just watch the ones in Plex and you're totally fine.

4456
04:25:04,400 --> 04:25:07,720
Speaker 1: So Plex is great for having like ease of access

4457
04:25:07,840 --> 04:25:10,480
Speaker 1: because right, sometimes I don't want to sort through my

4458
04:25:10,600 --> 04:25:13,080
Speaker 1: Blu ray discs and make sure that I have a

4459
04:25:13,120 --> 04:25:15,480
Speaker 1: Blu ray Player with me so to watch my stuff.

4460
04:25:15,720 --> 04:25:18,600
Speaker 1: So using plex is a great wet method to keep

4461
04:25:18,760 --> 04:25:22,480
Speaker 1: your stuff that you actually own accessible online to watch

4462
04:25:22,560 --> 04:25:25,000
Speaker 1: it as long as you sign into a web browser. Um.

4463
04:25:25,440 --> 04:25:29,600
Speaker 1: And the last thing I'll plug is library submission forms.

4464
04:25:30,000 --> 04:25:33,360
Speaker 1: So if you really want media and you don't wanna

4465
04:25:33,640 --> 04:25:36,000
Speaker 1: pay for it, and you don't want to like pirate necessarily,

4466
04:25:36,440 --> 04:25:39,400
Speaker 1: you can get libraries to buy stuff. Um. I did

4467
04:25:39,480 --> 04:25:41,760
Speaker 1: this all the time when I was younger. I I

4468
04:25:41,920 --> 04:25:45,320
Speaker 1: found out that you can submit items for purchase via

4469
04:25:45,360 --> 04:25:48,600
Speaker 1: the via via the library on the online forum, and

4470
04:25:49,280 --> 04:25:53,840
Speaker 1: I submitted so many comic books. Uh, most of the

4471
04:25:53,920 --> 04:25:56,400
Speaker 1: comic books, I would say, I'm not like a good

4472
04:25:56,440 --> 04:25:58,200
Speaker 1: majority of the comic books in the Molton Moon County

4473
04:25:58,200 --> 04:26:01,720
Speaker 1: Library system are because of me. Every every Wednesday, when

4474
04:26:01,760 --> 04:26:04,160
Speaker 1: a new trade paperback would be released, I would upload

4475
04:26:04,200 --> 04:26:07,480
Speaker 1: it to the library submission form and they would buy it. Uh,

4476
04:26:07,600 --> 04:26:09,800
Speaker 1: and not just one coffee, they would buy like twelve copies.

4477
04:26:10,280 --> 04:26:14,360
Speaker 1: So there's so many Batman comics in the in the

4478
04:26:14,480 --> 04:26:18,480
Speaker 1: in the Molton McKinney system because I would studiously upload

4479
04:26:18,640 --> 04:26:20,080
Speaker 1: upload all that stuff so that I didn't need to

4480
04:26:20,080 --> 04:26:21,760
Speaker 1: pay for comics. I could just get them from the

4481
04:26:22,120 --> 04:26:25,880
Speaker 1: from the library. So definitely look into library submissions to

4482
04:26:25,960 --> 04:26:28,640
Speaker 1: kind of grow what your library has in stock, and

4483
04:26:28,720 --> 04:26:31,880
Speaker 1: then also looking to see what other things your libraries doing,

4484
04:26:31,920 --> 04:26:34,120
Speaker 1: because I know more libraries are looking into building like

4485
04:26:34,200 --> 04:26:39,000
Speaker 1: maker spaces and like tool libraries to um have access

4486
04:26:39,080 --> 04:26:40,400
Speaker 1: to things that are not just like books, you know,

4487
04:26:41,080 --> 04:26:43,720
Speaker 1: power tools, and then you know had to access to

4488
04:26:43,960 --> 04:26:47,000
Speaker 1: even cool stuff like stuff like vacuum formers and like

4489
04:26:47,080 --> 04:26:50,200
Speaker 1: three three printers, laser cutters. All these things are kind

4490
04:26:50,240 --> 04:26:52,640
Speaker 1: of growing. So look into what your library is doing

4491
04:26:52,680 --> 04:26:56,360
Speaker 1: because oftentimes libraries have some pretty cool stuff. Um. So yeah,

4492
04:26:56,480 --> 04:26:59,840
Speaker 1: this is my little little bit on why I don't

4493
04:26:59,840 --> 04:27:02,400
Speaker 1: like pay wells, why I think content should be free

4494
04:27:02,560 --> 04:27:05,280
Speaker 1: because it actually helps creators in the long run any anyway,

4495
04:27:05,800 --> 04:27:08,320
Speaker 1: and how to get past news articles that don't want

4496
04:27:08,320 --> 04:27:11,040
Speaker 1: you to read them without paying too much money yep.

4497
04:27:11,640 --> 04:27:15,320
Speaker 1: And remember folks, if Japan invaded your country pirrating anime

4498
04:27:15,440 --> 04:27:18,160
Speaker 1: as reparations. If you're mad about this tweet, find me

4499
04:27:18,240 --> 04:27:21,160
Speaker 1: on Twitter and I write, okay, yeah, make sure your

4500
04:27:21,160 --> 04:27:23,760
Speaker 1: tweet and I right, okay if you have complaints about

4501
04:27:23,800 --> 04:27:26,400
Speaker 1: that take So yeah, that is that is my little

4502
04:27:26,520 --> 04:27:30,600
Speaker 1: my my little bit talking about piracy argue and uh

4503
04:27:31,320 --> 04:27:34,520
Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean morest we should, we should, we should.

4504
04:27:34,520 --> 04:27:36,440
Speaker 1: I think it's I've always had I've always hold this

4505
04:27:36,520 --> 04:27:38,320
Speaker 1: opinion that I think we can all learn a lot

4506
04:27:38,360 --> 04:27:41,680
Speaker 1: of lessons from Sonic the Hedgehog. Um. And I think

4507
04:27:41,760 --> 04:27:44,400
Speaker 1: one of the greatest ones is that turns out when

4508
04:27:44,440 --> 04:27:47,720
Speaker 1: you make stuff available to use, uh, for free and

4509
04:27:47,840 --> 04:27:50,840
Speaker 1: allow emulation, people like people like, people like the stuff,

4510
04:27:50,840 --> 04:27:53,720
Speaker 1: more people enjoy it, and it will actually support official

4511
04:27:53,880 --> 04:27:56,760
Speaker 1: uses of it as well. So more stuff for free,

4512
04:27:57,280 --> 04:28:02,320
Speaker 1: more more library based economies. Having having gold rings, having

4513
04:28:02,320 --> 04:28:04,680
Speaker 1: an enormous number of gold rings makes you nearly invincible.

4514
04:28:04,960 --> 04:28:06,720
Speaker 1: That that is this is this is also true. I

4515
04:28:06,720 --> 04:28:11,560
Speaker 1: mean this, multiple franchises exist with that exact premise. Um. Yeah,

4516
04:28:11,880 --> 04:28:15,200
Speaker 1: So it turns out when you have more, more libraries,

4517
04:28:15,280 --> 04:28:24,560
Speaker 1: more rings, people are happier. Yep. That's the episode. Hey,

4518
04:28:24,680 --> 04:28:27,800
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

4519
04:28:27,840 --> 04:28:30,680
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe. It could happen.

4520
04:28:30,720 --> 04:28:33,040
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

4521
04:28:33,080 --> 04:28:35,880
Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone

4522
04:28:35,920 --> 04:28:37,720
Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I

4523
04:28:37,840 --> 04:28:41,080
Speaker 1: Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

4524
04:28:41,720 --> 04:28:43,800
Speaker 1: You can find sources for it could happen here, updated

4525
04:28:43,880 --> 04:28:47,320
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks

4526
04:28:47,400 --> 04:28:51,040
Speaker 1: for listening. M Hey, Elizabeth, you're the co host of

4527
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4528
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4529
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4530
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4531
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4532
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