1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Joining us now is blockhead Jack Dorsey. That's the title 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: he himself requested, Jack, we really appreciate you joining us. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: Thank you. 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 2: I appreciate you both. Thank you for having me. 5 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely be grateful. Jack, you've been outspoken recently. Why 6 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: do you think that RFK Junior is the best choice 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: for the Democratic need and the best the Democratic nominee 8 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: and the best candidate in the field right now? 9 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: First and foremost, to have a candidate to be president 10 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: of the United States that is focused on peace and 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,639 Speaker 2: ending all these wars and really focusing on looking at 12 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 2: some of the deeper issues that we've we've had, especially 13 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: as he states around regulatory capture, the military industrial complex. 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 2: He is intimate knowledge of all these things. He's you know, 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: worked extremely hard and tiresome in these fields and made 16 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: a lot of progress. I you know, I came across 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: him this year and I really listened, and I kind 18 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: of went through all of his podcasts, almost every episode, 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 2: and I appreciate how much of a grasp he has 20 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: of all the issues he speaks to. I appreciate that 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: he's curious, and I appreciate that he comes at everything 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: from a more of a humanitarian angle. There's a deep, 23 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: deep sense of humanity and actually helping people. And there's 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: an edge as well, there's you know, no fear in 25 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: exploring topics that are a little bit controversial and maybe 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 2: in the future. So all in all, just absolutely refreshing 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: from what I've seen from the whole field. Now. I'm 28 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 2: not really usually in I don't, you know, really speak 29 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: out much on who I'm choosing or why, But I 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: don't know, I just feel like our country needs his leadership. 31 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 3: And do you think it would be important for the 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 3: Democratic Party to host primary debates so that voters have 33 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 3: a chance to view all of these candidates and their alternatives. 34 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it just it would be silly to not have 35 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 2: open debates, to not have open primaries, because it feels 36 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 2: like hiding or everything that is everything is planned and 37 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: you know, already determined, and I don't think that builds trust. 38 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: And right now we need to build as much trusts 39 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 2: as possible, open up and be as transparent as possible, 40 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: and really let the people see and decide for themselves, you. 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: Know, Jack, you know, speaking of openness of transparency, so far, 42 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: we haven't had a chance to really hear from you 43 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: much in really the recent years, and especially the last 44 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: several months. What do you make so far about Elon 45 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: Musk's CEO takeover of Twitter, your former company. 46 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: I think this is actually the first interview I've done 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: since I left the company. Maybe maybe well. As I said, 48 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: Twitter is going to have a very very hard time 49 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: continuing to be a public company. It had many pressures 50 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: upon it. The advertising business we were entirely dependent upon, 51 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: and not just advertising as you might think of it 52 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: from Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat. It was brand advertising. 53 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 2: It was dependent upon huge brands or collection or conglomerates, 54 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 2: brands seeing us as something that they wanted to spend 55 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: money on. And because we were so small relative to 56 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: our peers, if anything happened in the market or with them, 57 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: they would instantly pull away from us. Snapchat was included 58 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: in that bucket as well, and it would retreat to 59 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: the larger ones like Facebook and Google. Because we were 60 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 2: a public company without any protections, we had no dual 61 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: class of voting set up. We were open to activists 62 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: coming in. In fact, we had an activist coming into 63 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: our stock. It's hugely distracting and really really challenging to 64 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: build anything at all and to actually build something that 65 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: you have to take some risk upon because you have 66 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: the pressure from these advertisers and all this revenue suddenly 67 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: going away if you make a decision they don't like. 68 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 2: And at the same time, if that happens, then you 69 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: know that the stock has an issue and activist comes 70 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: in and it's a death spiral. So the only path 71 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: to me was to take the company private. And I 72 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: you know, Eli is our number one user, he's their 73 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 2: number one customer. He understood the platform deeply, and he's 74 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: a technologist and he builds technology. So at the very start, 75 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 2: I was hoping for years that he would and I 76 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: asked him many times to join our board at least, 77 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: But when he decided to make a bid for the company, 78 00:04:58,320 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 2: or join the board and then make a bid for 79 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: the company, Uh I was it just it felt great. 80 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: But as you all remember, that's the time when the 81 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 2: market crash, especially for advertising companies like ours. So if 82 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 2: we not get that, I think it would have been very, 83 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: very challenging for Twitter to live, right. So, uh what 84 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: happened unfortunately after that, after the bid made, the bid 85 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: was made and the and the market went down, is 86 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: you know, he went to back away. He did have 87 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 2: an option to back away at a billion dollars and 88 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: just walk away, but there was this fight about bots, 89 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: and you know, the company took him to court when 90 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 2: he when he backed out, and that's when things really 91 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 2: went south. Fortunately, you know, he decided to make it. 92 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: But I think it set up a kind of a 93 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: dynamic where he had to be very hasty, he had 94 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 2: to be impatient, he had to move as quickly as 95 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: possible with features even if they weren't fully thought out. 96 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: And it all looked fairly reckless. But I do have 97 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: confidence that he'll figure it out. I do have confidence 98 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: in his new CEO, and I own, you know, three 99 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 2: percent of this of this new company, so I'm supportive. 100 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: I have questions about, you know, certain things, and I 101 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 2: have questions about the long term aspects of free speech 102 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: on a corporate owned platform, no matter who the owner is. Yeah, 103 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: but those are solvable. 104 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 3: Speak speak to that piece first, specifically with regard to Elon, 105 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 3: do you think he's lived up to his own free 106 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 3: speech commitments on the platform? And then what do you 107 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 3: see as the tensions between a free speech commitment and 108 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 3: a for profit company. 109 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: Well, it depends on where you want the free speech 110 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 2: because we were more, you know, ideally going for a 111 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: global appreciation of free speech and free expression itself. And 112 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: Elon took on a principle of anything that's allowed by 113 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: law on the platform, which sets up a dynamic where 114 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: you have countries like India and Turkey who made many 115 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: requests to us back in the day to take down 116 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: particular journalist accounts or give contact information and remove them 117 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: from the platform. So I think it's easier to do 118 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: in the US. But at the same time, you are 119 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: dependent right now upon an advertising model, and the advertisers 120 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: can do things like boycott until policies are changed or 121 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: actions are taken. And we saw that many many like well, 122 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: almost every year I was at the company, we saw that. 123 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: So my one goal before I left the company was 124 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: to shift away from this dependency on brand advertising and 125 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: move to different lines of revenue. And Elan has started 126 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,239 Speaker 2: with that, and I think that will help the cause 127 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: of being a platform for truly free speech. But that said, 128 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: he can always be compelled. He has one person, He's 129 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: one single point of failure, and pressure can be put 130 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: upon him by the United States, by the Department of Defense, 131 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: by China, by Turkey, by India, of course, and it 132 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 2: will and this is this is going to be the 133 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 2: reality for any centrally controlled company or or even a 134 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: protocol that's that's centrally controlled. So the only way to 135 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: truly have free speech, to truly be censorship resistant, is 136 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: to work on open protocols. And there are only two 137 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: at scale that I'm aware of, which is Bitcoin for 138 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: money and noster for social media and beyond. But they're 139 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: so niche right now, and there's so it's all and 140 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 2: to me, it just it just says at the moment 141 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 2: that people don't actually care as much about the censorship resistance, 142 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: otherwise they would be using these technologies more. And maybe 143 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: there's not much of a need just yet or and 144 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: certainly the accessibility and the approachability of these systems is 145 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 2: rather ocine for all people in the world, but that 146 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: will that will change. So I think we'll see how 147 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: important censorship resistance truly is to people. You know, when 148 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 2: some of these issues come up in the future, and 149 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: it's no fault of Elon, no fault of anyone at 150 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: the top of one of these companies, it's just impossible 151 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: to avoid not having to take actions when there's a 152 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 2: particular entity, be to a government or your customer's requesting 153 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: that you do something or they leave right, Jack. 154 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: One of the things that a lot of people focused 155 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: on the Twitter files, do you think that that accurately 156 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: reflected decision makings, what that's was taking place, you know 157 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: at the company around so many of these sensitive topics, 158 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: and what's your reflection on that you know? Since their release, I. 159 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 2: Wish that the full corpus of the emails and all 160 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: the information was released so that more journalists and everyone 161 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 2: in the world could see everything, because I think there 162 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: is some context missing when you when you take parts, 163 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 2: and it's no fault of the reporters. Necessarily, they had 164 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 2: a tool and they had to ask questions of the tool, 165 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 2: and that tool would give them back fragments of information 166 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: and that might lead them to get the other fragment 167 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: to provide more context. But if if everything was available, 168 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: I think we'd have a better picture. I think the company, 169 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: you know, my leadership set on the company wishes to 170 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: trust our folks and that they were doing the right things. 171 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 2: There's a lot of stuff in the Twitter files that 172 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: you know, I never saw because it wasn't at that level, 173 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 2: and I was surprised by the level of engagement with 174 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: government agencies. I was surprised by the request. But if 175 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: you look at that, our people are our team members, 176 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: like they pushed back on a lot of that stuff, 177 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 2: not all of it, but a lot of it was 178 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: was questionable. So I think it shows a company that 179 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 2: is struggling. You know it. It remains the most important 180 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: public square in the world right now, and it was 181 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 2: so challenging to work in that environment. We're onder, we 182 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: are under our microscope from day one of the company, 183 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:45,719 Speaker 2: and it creates stresses that are just unbelievable. But I 184 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: think I think they acted with fairness. I think they 185 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: generally did the right thing. Of course, we made a 186 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 2: bunch of mistakes, especially around the New York Post and 187 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: the Hunter Biden laptop story. But I believe that people 188 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: and that they were doing the best they could with 189 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 2: the information that they had, and I wish in retrospect 190 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: I was a little bit more hands on than that. 191 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 2: My focus was on like when when I came into 192 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: the company, we were losing users, and now my focus 193 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 2: was just to grow the company again, grow the usage 194 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 2: base for the revenue, and we did. We actually became 195 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 2: a profitable company. We got onto the S and P 196 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 2: five hundred, we had, you know, five million dollars a 197 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: year in advertising revenue, and we were shifting away from 198 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 2: advertising at the same time and growing. So I didn't 199 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: focus on that area as much as I probably should 200 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: have in retrospect and asked more questions. It was all 201 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: reactive when I did. But yeah, it's a it's a 202 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: tough situation, but I think I think the company did well, 203 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 2: but certainly we could have done better, and I do 204 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: believe that we were more fair and more introspective than our. 205 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 3: Peers in terms of context. You said you felt that 206 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 3: some of the context was missing. Do you have specifics 207 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 3: there of things that you wish were included that you 208 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 3: felt painted in this leading portrait? 209 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: Nothing in particular that comes to mind. I mean, it 210 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: just it's hard to there's just so much context in 211 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: those emails and the communications, and even within that we 212 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 2: would have in person meetings that would discuss things that 213 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 2: may not be represented in the written communication. So there's 214 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: nothing that stands out. But I believe, like if you 215 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: truly want to show how one of these systems work, 216 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: which I'm fully supportive of, opening all this stuff up. 217 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: We were trying to like figure out how to do 218 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 2: that ourselves before I left. And one of my goals 219 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: is to be the most transparent company in the world. 220 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: But to only give access to a few people with 221 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 2: a tool that you know takes these franks, I think 222 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: that there could have been a better approach, and that 223 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 2: would just be open up the whole thing. 224 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 3: Jack. 225 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: One of the things, you're in a unique position. You 226 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: believe in free speech. That's something I've never doubted about you. 227 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: You also are in the unique position of having run 228 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: one of these companies. Can you give us some anecdotes, 229 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: as you alluded to foreign governments and the pressures that 230 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: you were under, if able, just to give the audience 231 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: an idea of what it is really like to be 232 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: in a position to have some of the most powerful 233 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: people literally on Earth coming to you and saying demanding 234 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: things of your company, and as someone with principles, how 235 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: did you navigate. 236 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: That India, for example, India is a country that had 237 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: many requests of us around the Farmer's protest, around particular 238 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: journalists that were critical of the government, and it manifested 239 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: in ways such as we will shut Twitter down in India, 240 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: which is a very large market for US. We will 241 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: raid the homes of your employees, which they did. We 242 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: will shut down your offices if you don't follows through. 243 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: And this is India, a democratic country. Turkey is is 244 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: very similar like we. We had so many requests from Turkey. 245 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: We fought Turkey in their in their courts and often won, 246 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: but they threatened to shut us down constantly. Nigeria yet 247 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: another one. I don't think we could even put people 248 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: on the ground because of what the government might do 249 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: to our employees if we had them there. And then 250 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: of course the the U S. We we started a 251 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: long time AGOO transparency report about all government requests into 252 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: US and we're continuing to make it more fine grain. 253 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: And these were requests of takedowns or investigations or any 254 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: any number of things that a government would request of us, 255 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 2: especially the US government. And I would, I would. I 256 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: wasn't as deep in those conversations, but I would say that. 257 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 4: It it was just, it was it was super It 258 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 4: feels super challenging because you have the US government asking 259 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 4: you things, and then when asking you to do things, 260 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 4: and then also calling you to Congress. 261 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: And I was, I was. I testified before Congress four 262 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: times for you know, five to seven hours each time 263 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: with the most non productive discussion. You know, these frame 264 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: questions of you guys are now the uh with you know, 265 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: with the ability to provide no context but soever, so 266 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: that the Congress people and the Senators could actually understand 267 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: and again have context for the problems we're trying to solve, 268 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: and and use it as a form for ideas too, 269 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: you know, to do this together for the people of 270 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: the United States and for the people of these other countries. 271 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: But it just felt like attacks all the time from 272 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: re angle. Everything we did really upset the right, and 273 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: everything we did really upset the left. Like you could 274 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: not there's no way to win, and you just kind 275 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: of have to internalize that and move forward. 276 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 3: You referred earlier to the fact that there hasn't been 277 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 3: a large adoption of some of the Twitter alternatives, and 278 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 3: you said that calls into question how much people actually 279 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 3: care about these questions of censorship. I viewed a little 280 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 3: bit differently, which is that it seems to me that 281 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 3: these platforms are kind of like the definition of a 282 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 3: natural monopoly. 283 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: Right. 284 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 3: The reason people are staying on Twitter is because people 285 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 3: are on Twitter, right, there's already this critical mass of 286 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 3: individuals there. So given the fact that, first of all, 287 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 3: I would be curious if you agree with that assessment 288 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 3: that they're sort of natural monopoly is because the value 289 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 3: comes in having the sizeable social network. Should they be 290 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 3: regulated then warlike public utilities, which is the other sort 291 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 3: of famous example of a natural monopoly. 292 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 2: I think natural monopolies happened for a time, but they're 293 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 2: easily disrupted. I don't think it's as challenging as as 294 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: one would think. I mean, Twitter has only been around 295 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 2: for seventeen years, which which seems like a long time, 296 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 2: But there was a you know, a MySpace before that, 297 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: and a friends Are before that, and a Usenet before that, 298 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: which was completely decentralized and unknown by anyone. I don't 299 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 2: I don't think more government regulation is necessarily the right 300 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 2: answer to ward off the monopoly aspects or fix some 301 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: of the issues. I think having a having an open 302 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: protocol that no one actually owns and governments and corporations 303 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: can't bend to their will is the most important thing 304 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: that allows for the most creative solutions solve the problems 305 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 2: we see, including protecting freedom of speech and including providing 306 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: safety for folks who who want it. And my hope 307 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: is that you know, as we build these technologies like 308 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 2: Noster and Bitcoin, that a company like Twitter adopts them 309 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 2: because it removes a bunch of the liability they would 310 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: have otherwise, and they can build phenomenal businesses on top 311 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: of it. And to prove that, you see what Google 312 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: has done with the Web. They used an open protocol, 313 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 2: built a phenomenal business. They built a phenomenal business on Gmail, 314 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 2: which is an open protocol for email. There are real 315 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: opportunities building on open protocols where we're at the same 316 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 2: time the foundational aspect of it, the foundational layer that 317 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 2: people own and a company can't bend towards its will 318 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 2: one way or the other. 319 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: Jack, what do you think about AI regulation? You're a technologist. 320 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: Do you think we should have regulation? Do you agree 321 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: with Elon and others who want to shut it down 322 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: in the meantime to regulate it? It gets to some 323 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: of the protocol discussion you're talking about right now. 324 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: I don't believe pausing AI is realistic. We may pause 325 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: it here in the US, but they're not going to 326 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: pauseit it in China. And I think there is a 327 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: bit of an arms race in this space. I think 328 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: regulation is needed. I don't think the the regulators currently 329 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 2: have an understanding of the approach. I'm hoping that they 330 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 2: look more at the primitives of these technologies and and 331 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 2: not focused on driving particular outcomes of the technologies. And 332 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: I think the real the most important thing to me 333 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 2: is that we have open source models. And I'm you know, 334 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: I've I've critiques Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg for uh most 335 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: of my career, and he does. But I really respect 336 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 2: the fact that he chose to open source his large 337 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: language model and that it created this entire open source ecosystem, 338 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 2: building models that are now approaching the level of a 339 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 2: chat cheep and what Google is doing with part I 340 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: think that is absolutely critical that we all have access 341 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: through these technologies and people can build on top of 342 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 2: it and we can actually see how they work. So 343 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: I think that's far more important than regulation. There's some 344 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: dangers there that people might take these technologies and build 345 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: extremely harmful things, but that's been the case forever in 346 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: open source, and we just haven't seen that play out 347 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: because there is a balancing effect of people doing the 348 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,719 Speaker 2: right thing and looking at ways to protect the overall 349 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 2: technology and ultimately protect community. So I think that the 350 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: open source aspect has me the most excited about this. 351 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 3: You have a lot of respected technologists who have been 352 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 3: sounding the alarm about the potential dire impact of AI 353 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 3: technology on society. Do you share any of those concerns? 354 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: Of course I share them. I think there's a lot 355 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: of hype in the AAR right now. The technology industry 356 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: is very trendy, and we move from one fashion to 357 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: the next fashion. And just six months ago, now nine 358 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 2: months ago, we're only talking about crypto and bard apes. 359 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: Now all that away and we're talking about AI and 360 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: how it's going to destroy us. Like if you listen 361 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 2: to the earnings calls of all these companies six months ago, 362 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: there was no mention of AI, and now every single 363 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 2: earnings call of all almost all public companies includes a 364 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: mention of AI. And some of that I think is, 365 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: you know, to pump the stock a bit. Some of 366 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: the all the dire stuff is it makes for a 367 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: good headline, which sells advertising and helps the media immensely. 368 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: I don't think we're anywhere near the danger point, but 369 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 2: certainly like it is important for us to consider the 370 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 2: you know the potential harmful outcomes and have conversations about them. 371 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 2: But I think the only way to do that is 372 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: to really build it in the technology. And that's why 373 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: I think open sources is so critical. 374 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: Jack, what do you make of metas you know, foray 375 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: into the headsets. We just had the release of the 376 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: Apple headset, this type of technological advancement. What do you 377 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: think about ar VR and the current push by these 378 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: companies into it. 379 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 2: I mean, it's obvious that it's going to happen. Like 380 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: if you if you want to understand the future of 381 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: any technology, just read science fiction. There they're actually the 382 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 2: roadmap writers, and it's obvious that like snow Crash, this 383 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 2: book from Neil Stevenson, is going to happen better one 384 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 2: like now that we've seen it in a movie, like 385 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: people want to build it, and I think they they've 386 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: you know, propensity to be phenomenal for for gaming. I 387 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: think it's an obvious user interface evolution. I'm super worried 388 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: and concerned with how out of touch it might make 389 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: people and how it just even further. I think another 390 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 2: movie Wally by Pixel, that's the future we're driving towards 391 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,959 Speaker 2: with everyone in the floating chairs, you know, drinking their 392 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 2: food out of straws, and you know, constant twenty four 393 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 2: to seven entertainment, And you can see that like the 394 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 2: whole world is headed this way. And I want to 395 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 2: believe that there's a different answer. So I don't know. 396 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: I'm I'm it's going to happen. I'm skeptical about some 397 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 2: of the benefits, and I hope we have an honest 398 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 2: conversation about some of the harms around more and more 399 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: social distancing. 400 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 3: I think there's been a huge increase both in research 401 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 3: about harms of too much technology, especially on young children 402 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 3: and teenagers. I think there's been huge interest from the 403 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 3: public in how do we make sure that we still 404 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 3: have you know, health that we're touching grass, so to speak. 405 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 3: And I wonder Jack, how you think about those things, 406 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 3: you know, advice to parents, advice to people individually, how 407 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 3: to sort of stay staying, stay connected, stay you know, 408 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 3: living a fulsome and satisfying and thriving life. As more 409 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 3: and more technology invades the most intimate of our personal interactions. 410 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: I do think it's important to find some sort of balance. 411 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: Like I think with all technologies when they first come out, 412 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: we tend to overuse them and abuse them, and then 413 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 2: we realize that we're doing that, and we look for, 414 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: you know, opportunities to move away from them. I do 415 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: think the phone is a real addiction. I do think 416 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: this generation of kids. I don't have kids myself, but 417 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: just talking with my friends who are parents, a lot 418 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: of them have made the choice to not allow any media, 419 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: TV or devices. Some have made decisions to allow everything 420 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 2: because they're growing up in this world and they need 421 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: to understand how to work with it, and others have 422 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 2: found some sort of hybrid. I think if you if 423 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 2: if we see it in a as a as a 424 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 2: tool to help us ask questions about the world, to 425 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 2: build things, to make things, and not just pure consumption, 426 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: I think it can be quite healthy as long as 427 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 2: you are finding balance elsewhere. And I am very worried 428 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 2: that there's not a lot of emphsis on finding that 429 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 2: balance outside the moment, and we've been so dependent. You 430 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: go to any restaurant these days and you have you 431 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: see couples all the time, both of them are on 432 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 2: their phones and the candle is in the middle of them, 433 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: and it's just we've definitely lost a lot of that 434 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 2: opportunity for real connection, and I do think we should 435 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: build technologies to suggest that people look. 436 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: Up, look up. That's an inspiring message, Jack. I know 437 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: that you're a busy man. We just want to say 438 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: we appreciate you joining us so much. It's it was 439 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: a real pleasure to talking to you, and I think 440 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to get something out 441 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: of this. 442 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 3: Thank you, Jack. Great to talk to you. 443 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: Thank you. 444 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 3: It's our pleasure.