Speaker 1: Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea. How are you.
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: I'm just off the road.
Speaker 3: My life is insane, and I think I slept fourteen
Speaker 3: hours last night. Oh my gosh, fourteen hours to wake
Speaker 3: up and go get a butt exam at I guess
Speaker 3: a proctologist or a scatological expert.
Speaker 1: I don't know what he was, but was a degrading experience.
Speaker 3: My cousin recently went to this doctor, and he brought
Speaker 3: my cousin up right before my anal rectum exam. I
Speaker 3: already had to call anoscope this month, so I'm getting
Speaker 3: so much ass play. This is separate and he basically
Speaker 3: told me to. He was very nice, and he must
Speaker 3: he had to have been.
Speaker 1: He's got bedside manner.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he had a nice bedside asshole manner. And what
Speaker 3: was the most humiliating part was that he told me
Speaker 3: to bend over the table and pull my pants in
Speaker 3: underwear down, so not even off, just down like you
Speaker 3: were getting. It is worse. So it's totally worse. I
Speaker 3: was like, can I just take them off right?
Speaker 1: And no gown?
Speaker 3: There was just a like a shade, like a dressing,
Speaker 3: you know, something to shade me. He was in the
Speaker 3: room also when I took my pants down looking away,
Speaker 3: which is horrifying also, and the nurse was there because
Speaker 3: you know, they have to have a witness now.
Speaker 1: And then I bent over the table with.
Speaker 3: My pants around my ankles and my underwear around my ankles. Absolutely,
Speaker 3: and then they lifted the table up, so the part
Speaker 3: that I was leaning on, oh no, they're putting down
Speaker 3: and put it down so that my asshole was more
Speaker 3: was protruding more. I suppose it was all a blur.
Speaker 3: I mean, actually it wasn't a blur. I wish it
Speaker 3: were a blur. So that was how my morning started.
Speaker 3: By the way, I'm coming to Charleston, South Carolina this
Speaker 3: Friday night, and I'll be in Charlotte, North Carolina on
Speaker 3: Saturday night, so I hope to see you there.
Speaker 1: Tickets are still.
Speaker 3: Available, and I am closing out this year with my
Speaker 3: last batch of shows for the Little Big Bitch Tour, so.
Speaker 1: Come see me. Awesome. Actually, Chelsea, I have a really
Speaker 1: exciting update. Oh good, what is it?
Speaker 4: This is about Lynette who we did a GoFundMe for
Speaker 4: last week?
Speaker 1: What was that for her sister?
Speaker 4: For her sister to get the car fixed and her
Speaker 4: GoFundMe is over five thousand dollars, So thanks to all
Speaker 4: the Dear Chelsea listeners who donated.
Speaker 1: She knows, so fantastic she does. I would be great
Speaker 1: she didn't, she knows, she's aware.
Speaker 4: So yeah, all that money goes to Lynette and her sister.
Speaker 4: And if you still want to donate, I will put
Speaker 4: a link in the description again this week, so check
Speaker 4: that out.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: Our guest today is an author and now I guess
Speaker 3: she's a producer. Well I don't guess she is a
Speaker 3: producer because she has her own TV show coming out
Speaker 3: based on her book called Three Women, which premieres tomorrow
Speaker 3: on Stars. Please welcome author and creator Lisa Todeo. Hi, Lisa, Welcome,
Speaker 3: Welcome to Dear Chelsea. This is my producer, Catherine.
Speaker 2: Hi, Katherine, lovely to meet you.
Speaker 3: Well, Lisa, this is nice because I vaguely recall no
Speaker 3: offense to you, but I vaguely recall interviewing you when
Speaker 3: the book came out, because I was a big fan
Speaker 3: of the book. When it came out, I was so
Speaker 3: delighted to find out it was going to turn into
Speaker 3: a series, and I watched the entire series in my
Speaker 3: bed on Sunday, prepping for my colonoscopy, so cheers to that. Gosh, wow,
Speaker 3: so we've been through it together so far and you
Speaker 3: didn't even know it.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 3: First of all, I want to say great casting. Everybody
Speaker 3: in this is so good. Betty Gilpin is in.
Speaker 1: It, and Jyleen Woodley, Jaylene.
Speaker 3: Woodley is always adorable and a great actress.
Speaker 1: And then what's Sloane's name? What's her name?
Speaker 2: She's a fucking Wanda Wise. She is insane. She's insanely
Speaker 2: talented and insanely stunning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's very, very easy to look at, and she
Speaker 3: has a lot. First of all, there's so much sex
Speaker 3: in the show, and it's female positive sex.
Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about all of this.
Speaker 3: But the first thing I wanted to say to you,
Speaker 3: Lisa is it was so nice to see a book
Speaker 3: be turned into a series with all of the fingerprints
Speaker 3: of the actual author on the show rather than someone
Speaker 3: else taking it over. This is a huge female centric production,
Speaker 3: from the directors to the writing to all of this.
Speaker 3: The storytelling is for females.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: Obviously men can watch it and learn a lot, but
Speaker 3: it feels very representative of the female experience. So that
Speaker 3: was very refreshing, and congrats to you on keeping your
Speaker 3: hand in the pot of all of this, because so
Speaker 3: many times we hear you know the opposite thing happening.
Speaker 3: Thank you, was that your relationship at Stars, Like, is
Speaker 3: that how you decided where to land?
Speaker 1: Because they were going to give you the what's the
Speaker 1: word I'm thinking of?
Speaker 3: I want to say authoritarian, like that like you to
Speaker 3: be an authoritarian?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean I believe that the show is
Speaker 2: exactly where it should be right now. But we did
Speaker 2: start at Paramount showtime. That was the initial sort of
Speaker 2: landing zone. Now Stars has picked it up, and I'm
Speaker 2: very happy to be at Stars. I do think that
Speaker 2: it is literally the ideal place for the show.
Speaker 3: And so so tell us, okay, don't I want you
Speaker 3: to talk about the show a little bit more than
Speaker 3: me describing it, because I feel like you might do
Speaker 3: a better job. But I want to just talk about
Speaker 3: So this is this original book. If you guys haven't
Speaker 3: read this book, I've talked about this book on the
Speaker 3: podcast before when I read it.
Speaker 1: So this is to just lay the groundwork.
Speaker 3: This is Lisa followed three different women throughout their kind
Speaker 3: of journeys. In this story, and kind of just tracked
Speaker 3: each woman and they each have different experiences and they
Speaker 3: all kind of tie in together. And then in the show,
Speaker 3: you're actually represented. There's a character that's you who is
Speaker 3: played by Shyleen Woodley. So how do you compare the
Speaker 3: book versus the show, Like, do you think it mirrors it?
Speaker 3: Did you think did you take some extra license?
Speaker 2: So I think it mirrors it. I think fans of
Speaker 2: the book will feel specifically with the acting. You mentioned
Speaker 2: all the actors that we have, they're brilliant. I think
Speaker 2: that the actors have brought Betty Gilben, bringing Lena to life,
Speaker 2: the housewife and Indiana who just wanted to be kissed
Speaker 2: is one of the most beautiful portrayals of female passion
Speaker 2: and having I think that people who loved the book
Speaker 2: and love Lilena character in specific, will just be blown
Speaker 2: away that Betty Gilpin has essentially just become her so
Speaker 2: much so that I felt like she had met her
Speaker 2: and she obviously hadn't. But the main difference in the
Speaker 2: show is that the Shalen Shale Woodley is playing, like
Speaker 2: you said, a sort of version of me. And the
Speaker 2: reason for a version of me being in there is
Speaker 2: we were trying to satisfactorily link all of the women
Speaker 2: and not have it just be an anthology and have
Speaker 2: it be like a real, you know, a television show,
Speaker 2: and we were going through the different ways that we
Speaker 2: could link them. There were some wildly pitched ideas, like
Speaker 2: Sloan's husband could be the lawyer in Maggie's story and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. All of it was very inorganic feeling
Speaker 2: when we were doing so much justice to honor the
Speaker 2: real three women's lives. The reason that they are all
Speaker 2: linked was me, and the reason that they all talk
Speaker 2: to me and that people talk to me in general,
Speaker 2: was that I I think, you know, I was going
Speaker 2: through a rough period of my life too, some of
Speaker 2: them where and I was. I was It's like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's easier to confess to a priest that has been
Speaker 2: you know, kicked out than it is to one that hasn't.
Speaker 2: And that's kind of what I was. I feel I
Speaker 2: felt like I was kicked out of the world, and
Speaker 2: people sort of you know, I just it was a
Speaker 2: it was we became close, and we became friends, and
Speaker 2: I have remained close with all three of them, most
Speaker 2: especially Maggie, who I talk to almost every day.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: So the sort of idea of me being the linking mechanism,
Speaker 2: the truth of it felt true to the to the book,
Speaker 2: and so that is the biggest difference in the show.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about these characters.
Speaker 3: Okay, so Lena specifically, we'll start with her because her
Speaker 3: story is probably very typical. Right, I'm sure of a
Speaker 3: woman that's married, that hasn't been touched by her husband
Speaker 3: for a really long time, that is aching for some
Speaker 3: sexual interaction or appreciation or any vibe at all. Like
Speaker 3: her marriage is dead and the relationship is dead, and
Speaker 3: he completely takes her for granted and just thinks she's
Speaker 3: going to stick around, and he doesn't know what the
Speaker 3: problem is, which I think is illustrative of many relationships
Speaker 3: far and wide. And how do you get that spark going?
Speaker 3: And in fact, she didn't get that spark relt with him.
Speaker 3: She had to go find it elsewhere, and then that
Speaker 3: becomes its own story. I mean, this Lena's character arc
Speaker 3: in this whole thing is just it's like a rollercoaster.
Speaker 3: So she falls kind of head over heels for her
Speaker 3: high school love interest. But he's married too, and I
Speaker 3: don't want to give away anything, but she really gets
Speaker 3: into him and then she gets the courage to make
Speaker 3: a change in her life. But it doesn't end the
Speaker 3: way you think it will end, and she's going through
Speaker 3: all of these emotions, losing herself, finding herself, losing herself
Speaker 3: and finding herself. And I loved seeing where she began
Speaker 3: and where she ended because I remember when I thought
Speaker 3: I was going to be some sort of actress.
Speaker 1: When you go to acting class. They talked about that, and.
Speaker 3: I was like, God, it's so interesting because so many
Speaker 3: times you see movies and you see shows and there
Speaker 3: is no arc that's definable or that you can put
Speaker 3: your finger on. You're like, well, this person's just stayed
Speaker 3: the same throughout the whole series. But in this show,
Speaker 3: every character is different than when they from where they started.
Speaker 3: So I thought that was so beautifully done in terms
Speaker 3: of acting, direction, all of the writing for it. So
Speaker 3: which story do you feel out of the three women?
Speaker 1: Maggie Sloane.
Speaker 3: Sloan's story is going to be very inspiring for a
Speaker 3: lot of people who want to throttle up because threeaples
Speaker 3: are very in vogue now. Threesomes are making a comeback
Speaker 3: in a major way, probably from the seventies, and I
Speaker 3: know a lot of women want to open their marriages
Speaker 3: because I have a lot of friends that I've spoken
Speaker 3: about this, and this is this is a great depiction
Speaker 3: of the trials and tribulations of doing that. Yeah, So,
Speaker 3: which one of the stories are you closest to as
Speaker 3: a writer?
Speaker 2: Gosh, that's a that's a hard question. As a woman,
Speaker 2: I would say that Lena's story was probably the one
Speaker 2: that I felt the most personally connected to, that roller
Speaker 2: coaster of how you feel in the sort of you know,
Speaker 2: in the gleam of the person who you love's eyes.
Speaker 2: So that felt to me like like Lena and I
Speaker 2: had grown up loving the same fairy tales, like the
Speaker 2: Princess Bride, et cetera. We got our our idea of
Speaker 2: what love came from the exact word, the same age,
Speaker 2: so it kind of came from the same place. So me,
Speaker 2: Lena and I have a very similar DNA in that way.
Speaker 2: So I think Lena's story is probably going to be
Speaker 2: one of the most relatable, just because, as you said,
Speaker 2: it's such a widespread issue. I think almost anyone can
Speaker 2: relate to that. Maggie being a young woman in high
Speaker 2: school who has attention from an older man is I
Speaker 2: think something that many of us can relate to as well.
Speaker 2: I certainly related that to that too. And there's something
Speaker 2: about and now as I have a daughter, I have
Speaker 2: a nine year old, and I'm seeing like you know,
Speaker 2: I'm kind of seeing men because she's smart and interesting,
Speaker 2: older men will sort of talk to her in a
Speaker 2: different I'm starting to see that and the way that
Speaker 2: she likes it because it's attention and just being able
Speaker 2: to see that what had happened to Maggie happening, you know,
Speaker 2: just seeing a version of that, the path of that
Speaker 2: in my own home is so striking, and I think
Speaker 2: people seeing it on screen. Gabby Creepy plays Maggie. She's
Speaker 2: a phenomenal actress, and she embodies the desire. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's like imagine desiring someone because it's your teacher. It's
Speaker 2: an older men like and yet the feelings of wrongness
Speaker 2: that come with that. I think we're so in tune
Speaker 2: to that and Sloane story. As you said, thrupples are
Speaker 2: getting big again. But what's so big to me about
Speaker 2: Sloan is that she just is unapologetically herself and certainly
Speaker 2: the Sloan in the book, and the other Sloan that
Speaker 2: I had spoken to who was an African American woman
Speaker 2: but did not want to be in the book in
Speaker 2: the end, was were the two Sloans that we kind
Speaker 2: of looked to while also retelling her story with Tory
Speaker 2: Samson and Chieza Hutchinson, who were the architects of the
Speaker 2: New Sloan. But what I think about the New Sloan
Speaker 2: is that she wants what she wants. She wants things
Speaker 2: that might seem to some women like whoah, you have this,
Speaker 2: this and this, you don't need that too. And that's
Speaker 2: the part that I like so much. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: you don't know what she needs. She has this, this
Speaker 2: and this, you don't have that, okay, but maybe you
Speaker 2: have the thing she does want. And who are you
Speaker 2: to decide what she should have left after having, you know,
Speaker 2: after having a wealthy lifestyle, a nice home, a gorgeous husband,
Speaker 2: and Blair Underwood.
Speaker 3: The idea that the notion that you should be satisfied
Speaker 3: with a certain number of things and not ask or exactly, yeah,
Speaker 3: have no cupidity for more like.
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, exactly, my cup is full and that's it.
Speaker 1: It's like no, no, no, no, wait, who decides that our
Speaker 1: cup is full? We're the ones who decide.
Speaker 2: That exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3: And that's such a female thing to do. Like when
Speaker 3: we're talking about like these kind of gender roles that
Speaker 3: we've grown up with, the idea of this male gaze,
Speaker 3: this idea of male appreciation, the idea that you can
Speaker 3: be seduced from such a young age, starting years younger
Speaker 3: than ten, by male attention, because of power dynamics, because
Speaker 3: of men you look up to, whether it's a mentor.
Speaker 3: I mean, I was in an inappropriate relationship at a
Speaker 3: very young age also, and I thought I was completely
Speaker 3: in control of the situation. And it's like, well, you're
Speaker 3: not taking into account all of the dynamics that exist
Speaker 3: within an age difference, like that that an older person
Speaker 3: has power over you.
Speaker 4: And the realizations that you have when you do get
Speaker 4: a little bit older, because when you're like fifteen, sixteen,
Speaker 4: seventeen and an older guys paying attention to you, you're like,
Speaker 4: I got this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's confirmation that everything is what.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And now that we're also we're all questioning these
Speaker 3: things and understanding that that is not good and that
Speaker 3: we don't want men looking at, you know, younger girls
Speaker 3: in that way, and it's like, you can't stop that
Speaker 3: from happening. So now we have to reconstruct how we
Speaker 3: act as women and how we.
Speaker 2: Raise our women, which is so messed up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're always doing all the clean up work, always exactly.
Speaker 3: I also like in Maggie's story, you know, she has
Speaker 3: an inappropriate relationship with her teacher, but she doesn't come
Speaker 3: to grips with the inappropriateness of it until much later,
Speaker 3: And so while it's happening, of course, she's in the
Speaker 3: throes of this, like she thinks this is a romantic
Speaker 3: love story, and she and I like how many times
Speaker 3: she says on camera I love you, I love you,
Speaker 3: I love you, I love you, because she needs it
Speaker 3: to hear it back so so much.
Speaker 1: Right, That's like another thing.
Speaker 3: When we're missing something we want, we wanted, we say
Speaker 3: I love you so prematurely without thinking it because we
Speaker 3: love the idea of being in love. We don't think
Speaker 3: about what comes, what kind of baggage comes with saying
Speaker 3: I love you, and what kind of responsibility you're taking
Speaker 3: on by saying I love you. So what about as
Speaker 3: a mother, how are you changing the way that you're
Speaker 3: talking to your daughter about these kinds of things even
Speaker 3: though she's nine, Like how are you preparing her knowing
Speaker 3: what you know now about women and writing these like
Speaker 3: you know, this book and this show, Like how do
Speaker 3: we change the narrative?
Speaker 2: I've been sending her to a ninja school, like after school,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I don't know how we change
Speaker 2: the narrative. I think it's got to be a collective effort. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: and I say unfortunately because I feel like there's a
Speaker 2: lot of people who are still stuck in previous ways
Speaker 2: of being and for this next generation and every forthcoming generation,
Speaker 2: I think the idea that you know, we need to
Speaker 2: evolve with this piece. We need to evolve in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways, but with this specifically, it's a very
Speaker 2: tricky zone. And like you were saying about Maggie, like
Speaker 2: she didn't know. She didn't while she was in the
Speaker 2: throes of it, she wasn't feeling, you know, and then
Speaker 2: later she felt something. But actually there was a moment,
Speaker 2: a couple of moments when she's like, you know, doing
Speaker 2: her high school thing, and like her friends were like, Yo,
Speaker 2: are you going to this party this weekend? Et cetera.
Speaker 2: And she's like, wait, I don't know if I'm going
Speaker 2: to be allowed to do that because I'm kind of
Speaker 2: dating this guy, you know, Like those kinds of things
Speaker 2: started seeping in. But she was like, well, but he's
Speaker 2: married and he's my teacher, so he shouldn't have a
Speaker 2: problem with me going to the prompt. And she was
Speaker 2: already kind of feeling yucked out and then he did
Speaker 2: something to pull her back in. So it's not even
Speaker 2: The part that is frightening to me is that, like,
Speaker 2: there is an inner mechanism I think at some point
Speaker 2: where someone's like, wait, you know what, I don't want
Speaker 2: to do this. But people who do have that knowledge
Speaker 2: of how how to groom victims essentially understand exactly when
Speaker 2: to get in there and flip the switch again. And
Speaker 2: that's absolutely terrifying to me, and I don't know how
Speaker 2: to fix it. I think the way that I personally
Speaker 2: am doing it is being hyper vigilant in situations of
Speaker 2: that sort. Wench. My daughter's at an early age so
Speaker 2: that I can sort of, you know, walk her through
Speaker 2: what's going on, so that there isn't a period of
Speaker 2: time where she's just not talking to me about it,
Speaker 2: because that's what happened with Maggie too. You start to
Speaker 2: feel shame and then you just clam up, and that's
Speaker 2: when the people who are making you feel the most
Speaker 2: shame are able to, you know, move in and essentially
Speaker 2: establish residence in your soul.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because even every woman isn't on the same page yet, right,
Speaker 3: Like we're having the conversation, so like, if you're a
Speaker 3: thinker and you're actually worried about this, you want to
Speaker 3: change the pattern of behavior of women moving forward. But
Speaker 3: all women don't feel the same way. Some women like
Speaker 3: that they think men should be in charge of society
Speaker 3: and women should be demure, and you know, a housewife
Speaker 3: is a great thing to aspire to be and that's
Speaker 3: all you should ask for.
Speaker 1: And this whole women's lib movement is too much.
Speaker 3: So it's like, for me as a woman, I feel
Speaker 3: so passionately about impacting any young kid girl specifically that
Speaker 3: I can with the knowledge and the power of what
Speaker 3: it means to be a fully actualized woman and not
Speaker 3: being so deferential and attention seeking from men. You know
Speaker 3: that that's not where it's at, and that is a disease.
Speaker 3: Like we're not going to be able to turn that
Speaker 3: around in our lifetime because you know, that's how we
Speaker 3: were raised, thinking that that's such a good thing. I
Speaker 3: think I was going to ask you about putting your
Speaker 3: own story in this series. How did you feel about
Speaker 3: doing that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I felt apprehensive about it, but I also
Speaker 2: what I also felt was, you know, I have put
Speaker 2: these three women's stories into a book and now adapted
Speaker 2: it for show. The idea that I would be too
Speaker 2: sort of precious with mine was not something that felt right.
Speaker 2: But more so I kind of I'm more of like a, oh,
Speaker 2: I don't want anything about me to sort of take
Speaker 2: away from anything about them or other people, because I didn't.
Speaker 2: I just didn't want to take up space in that way.
Speaker 2: But when I realized that it was good, it was
Speaker 2: the sort of the true ecosystem of the story of
Speaker 2: the book and then the story of the women and
Speaker 2: all of us, it just sort of made sense. But yes,
Speaker 2: I was apprehensive, and there was a moment where all
Speaker 2: of my worst fears were sort of realized when my
Speaker 2: husband and I were watching a scene that on playback
Speaker 2: on one of the monitors that Shyleen Woodley had just
Speaker 2: done an intimate scene with an actor that was sort
Speaker 2: of recreating a scene that my husband and I had
Speaker 2: actually had where a condom was lost inside of me
Speaker 2: on our first date and you know, he's trying to
Speaker 2: fish it out, et cetera. So we're watching the scene
Speaker 2: on playback and she comes up behind me and she
Speaker 2: goes you little creeps, and I was just like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, it's so humilian. I'm like, but I'm working.
Speaker 2: But ye know, I was apprehensive or I was nervous
Speaker 2: about stuff like that. But Shylene is so is such
Speaker 2: a consummate professional. She also it's not while it is me,
Speaker 2: and most of the things that are in the show
Speaker 2: that happened to the Gia character did happen to me.
Speaker 2: Shey Lene also, we discussed and she created her own
Speaker 2: version person, her own character, because it's not like I'm
Speaker 2: some you know, historical figure. You know, it's like the
Speaker 2: Queen where you know exactly how she does this, Like
Speaker 2: nobody gives a shit about how I drink tea.
Speaker 1: So there is a lot of condom use.
Speaker 3: I've never seen a show talk about condoms more or
Speaker 3: people use condoms more, because I honestly haven't used a
Speaker 3: condom in a really long time.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be honest, and I was like, oh.
Speaker 3: Great reminder, great reminder that we're supposed to be using
Speaker 3: for I'm having a lot of random sex.
Speaker 4: But there's so much like realistic sex in this Like
Speaker 4: the condom Use, there's period sex, there's like funny laughter
Speaker 4: during sex, which you it happens in real life but
Speaker 4: never on tech.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I also love that there's so much eye
Speaker 3: contact from the women moving into the sex scenes, you
Speaker 3: know how sometimes because it really made me reflect on
Speaker 3: my own like sexual kind of arc of my life.
Speaker 3: I remember being so much more inhibited and insecure and
Speaker 3: self conscious as a twenty and thirty year old, where
Speaker 3: I wouldn't make eye contact when I was getting and
Speaker 3: becoming intimate with someone.
Speaker 1: There's this kind of like.
Speaker 3: Avoidance where you're like kind of giggly and looking away
Speaker 3: and you can't take the straight action without the talking
Speaker 3: when you know you're an intimate moment. And there's so
Speaker 3: much female validation also in this series, which was so beautiful,
Speaker 3: kind of circling back to what I was saying earlier
Speaker 3: about imprinting on anyone you can that's a younger girl
Speaker 3: or even a woman our own age because we don't
Speaker 3: all have the same amount of confidence, we don't all
Speaker 3: have the same amount of.
Speaker 1: Agency and self esteem.
Speaker 3: And I loved that scene specifically where shy Lean Woodley
Speaker 3: is telling Betty Gilpin how beautiful she is in love, Like,
Speaker 3: you're a beautiful woman. Look how beautiful being in love
Speaker 3: and being happy makes you. And it was so gorgeous
Speaker 3: because we all need to be saying that to each
Speaker 3: other more frequently, regardless of whether you're in love or not.
Speaker 3: You know, when someone is beaming, you got to say,
Speaker 3: look at you. You're feeling yourself, but this is a
Speaker 3: beautiful look on you. Look how proud you should be
Speaker 3: of yourself. Like we don't do that enough at all
Speaker 3: as women with each other.
Speaker 2: We don't. And that's exactly right. And that's one of
Speaker 2: the main takeaways I hope come from the show is
Speaker 2: exactly what you just said, because like we were talking
Speaker 2: about Sloan before, when we were like, oh, well that's
Speaker 2: too much. You filled up your cup. You're done, your
Speaker 2: cup is full. I think that when we see someone
Speaker 2: else getting either more than what we have or something
Speaker 2: we wanted, it's really hard for us, I think, as
Speaker 2: a gender, to be happy for another woman because of
Speaker 2: the way we've been pitted against each other in our
Speaker 2: patriarchal society. So I think it's like imprinted in us
Speaker 2: to not do that. And so I think exactly what
Speaker 2: you said is right. We need to be like I'm
Speaker 2: happy you're happy. I'm happy you're smiling, and or I'm
Speaker 2: not happy right now you're smiling, I want to smile.
Speaker 2: How can I smile too? I think that's like the
Speaker 2: honesty and the sort of like coming at things or
Speaker 2: even like I'm a little upset that you got the
Speaker 2: man of your dreams or the woman of your dreams
Speaker 2: and I am still looking, but I hope to find
Speaker 2: that too, and I'm so happy for you. Like I
Speaker 2: think that being able to hold the hands in our
Speaker 2: support of one another is really one of the most
Speaker 2: important things we do.
Speaker 3: That and eliminating the negative talk that women say about
Speaker 3: each other. There's all so a very pertinent scene where
Speaker 3: she one woman is calling another character a slut, and
Speaker 3: she's like, don't do that.
Speaker 1: That's gonna come right back around at you.
Speaker 5: You know what I mean.
Speaker 3: We shouldn't be using that language about each other. Men
Speaker 3: use that language. We shouldn't be calling each other sluts
Speaker 3: or any of the other derogatory terms that we do.
Speaker 1: I mean, I do like the word cunt. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: say that, but I like that more as a descriptor.
Speaker 3: For a man than a woman. But I like saying
Speaker 3: the word cut. One of my very closest friends hates
Speaker 3: the word cunt.
Speaker 1: She hates it. She's like, it's such a vile word.
Speaker 3: I'm like, I understand you, but I think we should
Speaker 3: bring it back around and like it is in vogue,
Speaker 3: and I like calling a man a cunt, like he's
Speaker 3: a real cunt, you know. So anyway, Okay, on that note, Lisa, Sorry,
Speaker 3: this conversations all over the place, but I I'm all
Speaker 3: over the place and I love it. Okay, great, So
Speaker 3: we're going to take a break and we'll be right
Speaker 3: back with Lisa TODAYO from Three Women.
Speaker 1: And we're back with Lisa. What's happening, Catherine? We have
Speaker 1: so many things to talk about today. Are you ready
Speaker 1: to give some advice?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: This is a juicy one. Oh okay, juicy one. That's
Speaker 1: I always like to start with juicy.
Speaker 4: This email comes from Miley. She says Syra Chelsea.
Speaker 1: Spelled differently, but obviously she's trying to shrow.
Speaker 4: Dear Chelsea help. I am a single mama to a
Speaker 4: five year old daughter and became a surrogate three years ago.
Speaker 4: I gave birth to my friend's son last June, and
Speaker 4: we've always planned to do a sibling journey. We waited
Speaker 4: a year, and this summer began the process for the
Speaker 4: next journey. I've gone through medical and legal clearance, and
Speaker 4: I'm now playing a waiting game on sibling journey.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 4: So, so basically, she had the child for her friend
Speaker 4: and they planned to have a sibling for that child
Speaker 4: with her as a.
Speaker 3: Surg Okay, yeah, I really wish everyone stopped using the
Speaker 3: word journey.
Speaker 1: It's very confusing.
Speaker 3: The fuck I thought she was doing ayahuasca. I'm like, wait,
Speaker 3: what what's happening? Okay, sibling journey? Okay, got it.
Speaker 1: Yes, so I was just waiting to find out the
Speaker 1: transfer schedule. So it's happening, so.
Speaker 3: That she's gonna have another baby for these people, right, Okay,
Speaker 3: here's the thing.
Speaker 4: Last month, my college sweetheart reached out to me to
Speaker 4: see if I'd be interested in catching up. We spent
Speaker 4: the first night laughing and reminiscing for hours on a
Speaker 4: rooftop lounge, followed by legit fireworks. He reached out almost
Speaker 4: immediately after I left, and we planned our next meetup.
Speaker 4: We're now three wonderful dates, in one of which was
Speaker 4: me joining him on a sailboat for his best friend's birthday.
Speaker 4: To say this was all unexpected is a massive understatement.
Speaker 4: I will always lead with honesty and know I need
Speaker 4: to tell him I could very well be getting pregnant
Speaker 4: within the next few weeks, but how the timing feels
Speaker 4: like a mean trick from the universe. Any advice, Miley,
Speaker 4: huh wow, Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Have like a question.
Speaker 3: I know, it's so annoying when you have questions because
Speaker 3: they're not fucking here.
Speaker 2: I know. I'm just like, it's an open question. Was
Speaker 2: she getting paid for the surrogacy, because it sounds like
Speaker 2: the new guy and the sailboat maybe it was his friends.
Speaker 2: But if he's maybe she doesn't need I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3: I'm like, really, this is where you're going after what
Speaker 3: we just talked about a man.
Speaker 1: To provide for hers.
Speaker 6: We're talking you.
Speaker 3: Don't need the money from the surroga so you have
Speaker 3: a new boyfriend, he's got to throw sailboat drop.
Speaker 2: No, I was kidding, but my but I guess it's
Speaker 2: like she's doing this for her friend. I mean, gosh,
Speaker 2: I feel like I personally would say that, wait, she
Speaker 2: already has the date for the transfer. The date. Ya,
Speaker 2: This is like blowing my mind.
Speaker 5: I know, I know.
Speaker 4: So they don't have the date yet for the transfer,
Speaker 4: but they are cleared for transfer.
Speaker 1: Oh okay.
Speaker 2: If they don't have the date, I would say, give
Speaker 2: it another two dates with the dude, right, I mean,
Speaker 2: like we can wait and see, we can wait a month.
Speaker 2: I just no, you don't like, oh no.
Speaker 3: This is what I'm thinking out loud, is if you
Speaker 3: made a can comitment to do something, Because there's a
Speaker 3: threat of professionalism in this.
Speaker 1: Right, she's not a friend, she's not just doing it
Speaker 1: for free.
Speaker 3: I'm presuming if she's getting paid to do this, and
Speaker 3: this is a commitment that she has made. I feel
Speaker 3: like it's like any other work commitment. You don't stop
Speaker 3: your commitment because you started dating somebody. So if you
Speaker 3: take out all the ingredients of the situation and just
Speaker 3: look at it, yes, right, like, Okay, you were scheduled
Speaker 3: to go work for these nine months, but you just
Speaker 3: met a guy that you really, like, are you gonna
Speaker 3: quit your job for the next nine months?
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's. If she's not getting paid
Speaker 1: and it is just a service she's providing, then that's
Speaker 1: a little bit different.
Speaker 3: But she still made a commitment to help these people,
Speaker 3: so it shouldn't even be impacted by the boyfriend. The
Speaker 3: new boyfriend, and he's not their boyfriend yet because it's
Speaker 3: only been three dates with a friend's sale.
Speaker 1: Book college flame.
Speaker 4: I kind of feel like, since she has a child
Speaker 4: of her own, which is sort of like very in
Speaker 4: the very beginning of the email, a pregnancy might not
Speaker 4: be that far out of the realm of his expectations.
Speaker 1: Who knows, Yes, I did both for it. Let him
Speaker 1: figure his shit out.
Speaker 4: And if he's like, who knows, maybe he's got a
Speaker 4: pregnancy fetish, maybe he's into it, or.
Speaker 1: Maybe he's I don't want him to have a pregnancy fetish.
Speaker 2: What is that?
Speaker 1: Even that doesn't sound good.
Speaker 3: I mean, then what happens after the baby's born? Yeah,
Speaker 3: pregnancy fetish? Like, let's not get carried away. I think
Speaker 3: this is a good subject matter for your next book.
Speaker 2: I totally I totally agree. Too bad, it's about grief.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I hear both of those. I think the
Speaker 2: work commitment and the or you know, whether she's getting
Speaker 2: paid or not, the professionalism of having made a commitment.
Speaker 2: But the only thing I'll say, which is why I
Speaker 2: do like the idea of waiting a couple more dates,
Speaker 2: is what if this is the guy of her dreams
Speaker 2: and you know, it's sort of what if it is
Speaker 2: the person for her? That being said, if it's the
Speaker 2: person for her and she says, I'm planning to be
Speaker 2: a surrogate, how do you feel about that? I think
Speaker 2: that should happen regard wardless because then you find out
Speaker 2: you know what kind of a person he is, and
Speaker 2: he might be like, oh, I don't care. And if
Speaker 2: he does care at such an early stage, then I
Speaker 2: would be like, oh, maybe he wasn't right. So it
Speaker 2: might end up being an easier answer if we ask
Speaker 2: more questions.
Speaker 3: I know, I'm just trying to think some I never
Speaker 3: try to think like a man because I don't really care.
Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to think.
Speaker 3: I don't really care what they're thinking, but I like
Speaker 3: to I'm just trying to imagine what it would be
Speaker 3: like to be dating someone and then then to be like, fully,
Speaker 3: nine months pregnant, you're in love with them and they're
Speaker 3: having someone else's baby.
Speaker 1: What does that feel like? And I just realized I
Speaker 1: don't care again.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't care enough because it's like it's really nothing,
Speaker 3: has nothing to do with you.
Speaker 1: It's just a body changing exactly.
Speaker 3: So I would say, yeah, you could wait a couple
Speaker 3: more dates, just so everything's out in the open and
Speaker 3: you can clear the air and make sure he's provided
Speaker 3: with all the information. And again like, if this guy
Speaker 3: is it and you guys have this great connection, yes,
Speaker 3: I understand it. Nine month pregnancy is a big deal,
Speaker 3: but it's nine months. It's not the rest of your life.
Speaker 3: And it is again a commitment that you made.
Speaker 1: I really like that, And I.
Speaker 4: Think maybe now you tell him I did the circusy
Speaker 4: thing a few years ago for my friend and that
Speaker 4: was a really cool thing for me. And then maybe
Speaker 4: in a couple of dates, when we wait a couple
Speaker 4: dates to tell them, hey, remember what are you telling
Speaker 4: about that circucy thing.
Speaker 1: We're doing it again. We're doing a sibling journey. So
Speaker 1: maybe it's like peppering it in, but definitely don't use
Speaker 1: the term sibling journey. Just say we're fucking having a sibling. Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's it. And on a personal note, I
Speaker 1: would do anything to avoid a pregnancy. I would do anything.
Speaker 1: I would be like, this is the perfect out.
Speaker 3: Like if I weren't looking at this situation trying to
Speaker 3: be objective, which is what I am, I would be like,
Speaker 3: get the fuck out of that fucking surrogacy thing commitment
Speaker 3: you made and go be with your boyfriend.
Speaker 1: Okay, but we're not talking about me.
Speaker 3: We're talking about someone who's nice, generous, has already done
Speaker 3: this for another person, which is pretty much the biggest
Speaker 3: gift you can give somebody, and really, so there's lots
Speaker 3: of different feelings about this, but I think she should
Speaker 3: focus on the fact that she has stood up and
Speaker 3: said she's going to do something, so you should follow
Speaker 3: through with that. And we'll leave it at that before
Speaker 3: Lisa says anything.
Speaker 1: Else, all right, Miley, keep us posted.
Speaker 4: Our next caller is Sarah, and her question dovetails with
Speaker 4: so many of the themes in the show and in
Speaker 4: the book. So she says, Dear Chelsea, I've been in
Speaker 4: a relationship with my boyfriend Chris, for the past ten years.
Speaker 1: I'm twenty five and he's twenty six.
Speaker 4: We've faced significant struggles, particularly in the last four years,
Speaker 4: and it feels like we're stuck in a painful limbo.
Speaker 4: Four years ago, Chris told me he hasn't been attracted
Speaker 4: to me since our sophomore year of college.
Speaker 1: This aggravated a.
Speaker 4: Deep wound that I've had all my life, manifesting through
Speaker 4: eating disorders, body dysmorphia, and low self.
Speaker 1: Esteem due to PCOS.
Speaker 4: Despite my efforts, and for people who don't know, PCOS
Speaker 4: can cause you to have some body changes, some weight gain, that.
Speaker 1: Sort of thing. What does PCOS stand for? Polycystic ovarian syndrome?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: I get yeah, last one to the party as usual? Okay.
Speaker 4: Despite my efforts to improve my self image and our
Speaker 4: relationship through therapy and self care, our intimacy has been
Speaker 4: non existent for three years. A peck good night, and
Speaker 4: that's it. I've tried to address this gently and consistently,
Speaker 4: but I'm beginning to fear that staying in the situation
Speaker 4: means disrespecting myself. Chris is incredibly caring and kind, making
Speaker 4: this even harder to stomach. I'm finding it difficult to
Speaker 4: balance my journey of self acceptance and healing with the
Speaker 4: need for a reciprocal and supportive relationship. Our attempt at
Speaker 4: couple's therapy didn't result in much, and I often feel
Speaker 4: like I'm the only one actively working on our issues.
Speaker 4: I've tried my best to be patient and let him
Speaker 4: work through this at his pace, and I know he
Speaker 4: feels terrible, but nothing ever changes. This situation, combined with
Speaker 4: the grief of losing my mom to early onset dementia
Speaker 4: this past May after caretaking for her for two years,
Speaker 4: has left me feeling deeply stuck and isolated. Am I
Speaker 4: holding on to false hope? Or is there a way
Speaker 4: to address these issues constructively? Chris has been my best
Speaker 4: friend for most of my life and I can't imagine
Speaker 4: life without him. I'm not conventionally attractive and I come
Speaker 4: with a lot of baggage for a twenty five year old.
Speaker 4: So if this man who has known me for so
Speaker 4: long doesn't show me the love I need, how will
Speaker 4: I ever get anyone to love me the way I
Speaker 4: need to be loved?
Speaker 3: Sarah, Hi, Sarah, that's hi, wo Hi cutie. This is
Speaker 3: Lisa TODAYO, our special guest Today.
Speaker 6: Hi Lisa some order to meet you, lovely to meet.
Speaker 1: You, honey, honey.
Speaker 3: First of all, please don't ever say you're not conventionally attractive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, georgeous, I.
Speaker 2: Going to say. I was just going to say the
Speaker 2: exact same.
Speaker 3: You're beautiful, insider, your eyes are beautiful. I can see
Speaker 3: that you have a beautiful soul. Please don't even talk
Speaker 3: about yourself in that way.
Speaker 1: I'm going to this. This is not going to be
Speaker 1: an easy phone call for you.
Speaker 3: Okay, Right, you're in a stale relationship that has expired,
Speaker 3: and I understand that there's an attachment issue, that you're
Speaker 3: attached to him a different in a different way, But
Speaker 3: you are not going to build your self esteem and
Speaker 3: your self worth by being with someone who said he
Speaker 3: wasn't attracted to you. First of all, this is all
Speaker 3: an inside job that you have to work on yourself.
Speaker 3: You have to figure out away from any man that
Speaker 3: you're valuable, that you're special, that you have something to offer,
Speaker 3: and that you're beautiful as a person. Beautiful I just
Speaker 3: don't mean the exterior, but you're beautiful on the exterior too.
Speaker 3: But that's the last point, Like, who gives a shit
Speaker 3: about that?
Speaker 1: Right now? This is a deeper issue.
Speaker 3: You can't be with someone who said they're not attracted
Speaker 3: to You can't have that seeping into your system. It's
Speaker 3: like a negative thought pattern that you are experiencing. Do
Speaker 3: you have a therapist that you go to on your
Speaker 3: own I do, yes, Okay, and how is that going.
Speaker 5: I've been going to therapy since I was sixteen for
Speaker 5: my own mental health issues, so it's a regular thing
Speaker 5: in my life. But she's not the type of therapist
Speaker 5: who will say her outright opinion about something. She'll just
Speaker 5: kind of guide me along, so I don't really know
Speaker 5: what she thinks about this relationship.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, let's get down to business. Should you need
Speaker 3: to get into your self worth and your self esteem?
Speaker 3: Those are your major points of interest for the next
Speaker 3: six months to a year. Is building yourself up, and
Speaker 3: the way that that's going to happen is by initiating
Speaker 3: some independence for yourself first and foremost. I don't think
Speaker 3: you should stay in this relationship any longer than you
Speaker 3: have to. I really think that you are going to
Speaker 3: give yourself a huge gift by getting away from the relationship.
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean you don't love him, that doesn't mean
Speaker 3: he doesn't love you. It just means that's not that's
Speaker 3: not your future, and it's holding you back because these
Speaker 3: thoughts that you have about yourself. You have to retrain
Speaker 3: your entire brain in the way that you think about yourself,
Speaker 3: and that might mean getting a new therapist who's going
Speaker 3: to help you achieve that.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Sometimes when we're a therapists for too long, it can
Speaker 3: get a little bit stale. And I'm a big advocate
Speaker 3: of jumping around and moving around to different therapists at
Speaker 3: different times in your life.
Speaker 1: You have different needs throughout your life.
Speaker 6: Right, Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 5: I guess I get hung up on I have empathy
Speaker 5: for where he's coming from and that he didn't necessarily
Speaker 5: mean physical attraction.
Speaker 6: I read him between the lines.
Speaker 2: Is he less interested in being intimate? And that's what
Speaker 2: caused you to ask? Or is it? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so there are some intimacy issues that had just
Speaker 5: gone unspoken and I brought them up and that's kind
Speaker 5: of where the conversation led.
Speaker 6: And that was about three four years ago.
Speaker 2: But you said you read between the lines. What did
Speaker 2: he really say?
Speaker 5: Well, my therapist was wonderful to remind me that this
Speaker 5: probably doesn't have much to do with my physical appearance.
Speaker 6: That has nothing to do with that about there's a
Speaker 6: lot about his.
Speaker 5: Own self confidence and self image and.
Speaker 6: How he feels in this relationship. So I've been trying
Speaker 6: to focus on that.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: Also, I want you to think about this when I'm
Speaker 3: going to say something. This moment in time is not
Speaker 3: the rest of your life. This is a moment in time,
Speaker 3: and you have the choice and opportunity as such a
Speaker 3: young person to look at like the big picture of
Speaker 3: what your life can be. And it's up to you
Speaker 3: to make like to create the engine to move forward.
Speaker 3: It's up to you to go, Okay, my life can
Speaker 3: be bigger than this. I can love myself in a
Speaker 3: big different way. I could find someone where with the chemistry,
Speaker 3: it's just about chemistry, you know what I mean. You
Speaker 3: have to have the right chemistry with people. And sometimes
Speaker 3: chemistry dies and sometimes it fades, and sometimes it's a
Speaker 3: lie forever.
Speaker 1: But regardless, you have to have the spark between two people.
Speaker 3: That can create that when you're attracted to someone, you
Speaker 3: can almost work through anything together if you both have
Speaker 3: the same desire for each other. Yeah, you know, and
Speaker 3: if a relationship has fizzled out, that's okay. The only
Speaker 3: mistake is staying in it for longer than you need to.
Speaker 3: Once it has fizzled out, that doesn't mean it's a failure.
Speaker 3: That means that period of time is over. It's completed.
Speaker 3: Now you can move on to the next phase of
Speaker 3: your life.
Speaker 4: And I know one of the biggest fears for you
Speaker 4: too is losing him. But it's okay. If this transitions
Speaker 4: into a friendship, and in many ways it seems like it,
Speaker 4: maybe he already has.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was gonna say that, Yeah, it does feel
Speaker 6: like a friendship.
Speaker 5: And I asked him specifically in preparation for this, why
Speaker 5: he still wants to be in a relationship with me,
Speaker 5: and he says there's something deeper there than friendship. To him,
Speaker 5: just the joy I bring to his life is what
Speaker 5: he said, is deeper than friendship.
Speaker 1: But that's friendship.
Speaker 5: That is friendship, right, So it is it's hard to
Speaker 5: imagine redefining that after being in a relationship like this
Speaker 5: for ten years now, but I think you're right, there's
Speaker 5: definitely some at least redefining that needs to happen.
Speaker 2: I can tell you for what it's worth from my
Speaker 2: own personal experience that I my boyfriend throughout high school
Speaker 2: and into college and beyond. I was with him for
Speaker 2: many years. Very similar situation happened. We broke up, it
Speaker 2: went on for longer than it should have, many years longer,
Speaker 2: and now we are still friends to this day, and
Speaker 2: it's great, Like it's a really great friendship. But I
Speaker 2: do rue I do miss the days, the years that
Speaker 2: I that I stayed if I'm just telling you that
Speaker 2: and what it's worth, because I was. I was terrified
Speaker 2: of losing the connection with the person who I had
Speaker 2: been with for so long, and that's the most normal
Speaker 2: feeling in the world. It is. It's going to be
Speaker 2: very hard, but you are ultimately going to get what
Speaker 2: you need and probably still have this person in your life.
Speaker 3: There's a difference between attachment and attraction. You have an
Speaker 3: attachment to him, and that's fine, and that's a friendship.
Speaker 3: That's not a love interest. You need to develop your
Speaker 3: like love affair with yourself. You have your whole life
Speaker 3: ahead of you. You're incredible, Like I can see the
Speaker 3: kindness in your eyes. I know this is upsetting to hear,
Speaker 3: but I want to hear from you how you feel
Speaker 3: about actually ending the relationship, Like, do you think you
Speaker 3: have the ability?
Speaker 1: I know you have the ability. Do you think that
Speaker 1: that you're capable of doing that in the near future?
Speaker 5: I do If that's what's best for both of us,
Speaker 5: I have the strength to do it. It's hard to
Speaker 5: imagine losing his family.
Speaker 1: They've been You're not going to lose his family.
Speaker 2: You're not.
Speaker 3: No one's going to say We're never going to talk
Speaker 3: to you again. That's just not You've been together for
Speaker 3: ten years.
Speaker 5: Right, And I guess with all the change that comes
Speaker 5: with losing your mom, it is hard to imagine the
Speaker 5: change of.
Speaker 2: How long ago did you lose your mom?
Speaker 6: In May?
Speaker 5: I'm so sorry? Yeah, thank you so Mark. Yeah, he
Speaker 5: and his family have been really great about helping me
Speaker 5: through that. So that's another thing that I just have
Speaker 5: been benefiting a lot from their support. But I think
Speaker 5: you're right, something needs to happen. It can't keep saying
Speaker 5: like this.
Speaker 3: But also, your mom passing away, you have to think
Speaker 3: about what your mom would want for you. Yeah, would
Speaker 3: your mom want you to be in like a stale
Speaker 3: relationship just because you're getting support from them because of
Speaker 3: her passing? What your mom really wants for you is
Speaker 3: for you to have agency and for you to go
Speaker 3: after your dreams and to find yourself in a real
Speaker 3: concrete way.
Speaker 1: That's what any mother would want for their daughter.
Speaker 3: So even in moving forward through these difficult moments, because
Speaker 3: there will be many difficult moments, you have to bring
Speaker 3: your mother's energy into your body and do it for
Speaker 3: the both of you.
Speaker 5: That makes sense. Do you have any thoughts on what
Speaker 5: to do? Like I just I feel like he's coming
Speaker 5: from such a kind place that he really wants to
Speaker 5: improve this. That's what's so heartbreaking, because I feel like
Speaker 5: I need to give him space to try.
Speaker 2: To Are you attracted to him?
Speaker 6: I would be if I felt safe. I don't know
Speaker 6: that I feel safe to let my guard down that
Speaker 6: much yet anymore.
Speaker 1: After getting rejected so many times. Yeah, yeah, that's understandable. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's not like he's the bad guy, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean? No one's the bad guy here. This
Speaker 3: is just like a relationship that has run its course.
Speaker 3: And I think you're doing you and him a favor
Speaker 3: by actually taking the step instead of just sitting there
Speaker 3: and waiting for another five years to pass. I think
Speaker 3: the conversation starts with like, Obviously I want you in
Speaker 3: my life forever. Obviously our friendship is so deep. I
Speaker 3: want to continue this forever. Your family has been.
Speaker 1: A rock for me.
Speaker 3: I don't want to lose that. I don't want to
Speaker 3: lose our friendship. But I think we have to really
Speaker 3: be honest about what this is. This isn't a love
Speaker 3: relationship anymore. And I have needs that I would love
Speaker 3: to go explore. I have to go find myself in
Speaker 3: a real way without having like a codependency with each other.
Speaker 1: And you also want that for him. You want him
Speaker 1: to be able to find his happiness and his truth.
Speaker 1: It's not just about you, it's about both of you.
Speaker 3: You're actually stepping up to the plate where there's two
Speaker 3: people who are like being passive you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: And you're saying, no, we need to face this situation.
Speaker 1: It's going to be difficult.
Speaker 3: But if we do this with love and out of
Speaker 3: respect for the ten years that we've spent together, we
Speaker 3: can separate in a way that we won't ever have
Speaker 3: to really say goodbye to each other. We can have
Speaker 3: all the good things remain. Yeah, but we're not in
Speaker 3: a relationship anymore. Like under the subterfuge of a romantic relationship.
Speaker 5: I think that makes a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 5: I just I worry that the pain of we couldn't
Speaker 5: be enough for each other might be a little too
Speaker 5: much to keep that relationship going, that friendship.
Speaker 1: You think that will impair the frinch, You think that won't.
Speaker 6: Just that I wasn't enough for him and he wasn't
Speaker 6: enough for me.
Speaker 1: That But honey, that's not what it is.
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 3: It's not that you're not enough. It's not that he's
Speaker 3: not enough. It's that you're no longer a match. You're enough,
Speaker 3: he's enough. You're not for each other, You're not a match.
Speaker 3: It's like things that go together and blend well, there's alchemy,
Speaker 3: and then there's the opposite of that, and then there's
Speaker 3: no strings attaching you anymore.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean in that way. And it's
Speaker 1: not about you being deficient. And I understand that these
Speaker 1: are words.
Speaker 3: It's not like, oh, you're going to leave this phone
Speaker 3: call and be a completely different person. But I want
Speaker 3: you to re listen and re listen to this conversation
Speaker 3: because there are people that you don't have chemistry with,
Speaker 3: and then there are people that you do. And there
Speaker 3: are different kinds of chemistry. There's friendship chemistry and then
Speaker 3: there's sexual chemistry. And hopefully in your next relationship you're
Speaker 3: going to find both of those things and they're going
Speaker 3: to last.
Speaker 1: And it's just the alchemy's not there for the sex.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Sure, And I know you're scared about not giving him
Speaker 4: enough time or robbing him of the joy that he
Speaker 4: gets from the relationship.
Speaker 1: But it's been ten years, so there's enough time, right, And.
Speaker 4: It's been three years of this sort of like no
Speaker 4: sexual tension. But I think one thing that you need
Speaker 4: to realize is by staying, you're not only denying yourself
Speaker 4: the time to go and find the next right thing
Speaker 4: or being by yourself, you're also robbing him of that
Speaker 4: opportunity as well. As much as he probably wants to
Speaker 4: stay in the relationship because it's safe and it's comfortable
Speaker 4: and you're obviously wonderful, and why wouldn't he want to
Speaker 4: be close to you, you're denying.
Speaker 1: Both of you that opportunity to go find what's right
Speaker 1: for you. That makes sense, So what's the plan?
Speaker 2: What if what if you started by writing a letter,
Speaker 2: because I think a lot of this is your fear
Speaker 2: about how he's going to react. So I think if
Speaker 2: you write a letter to him that you can just
Speaker 2: sort of feel and say everything you want in it,
Speaker 2: and then and then just have it and sit with
Speaker 2: it for a couple of days and then maybe imagine
Speaker 2: how he will react to some of the things in there,
Speaker 2: and just sort of because I think right now the
Speaker 2: idea is just so big and giant that you just
Speaker 2: need to take it step by step. And I think
Speaker 2: writing a letter that no one has to ever see
Speaker 2: if you don't want them to, is a good first
Speaker 2: step to just getting everything down and getting yourself comfortable
Speaker 2: with even the potential of doing this.
Speaker 6: That's a great idea.
Speaker 1: I love that idea. Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea.
Speaker 4: You're obviously a beautiful writer, like your letter you wrote
Speaker 4: to us was very beautiful. So, Lisa, I wonder as
Speaker 4: another creator, Sarah is also a creator Chelsea too. Is
Speaker 4: there some advice that you could give her on turning
Speaker 4: her story and these elements, these painful elements that she's
Speaker 4: going through. What can that become in the future.
Speaker 2: Gosh, it can become anything. I mean, there's a line
Speaker 2: you know, someday this pain will be useful to you
Speaker 2: that I've like, if I didn't just have that in
Speaker 2: the frontal lobe of my brain every day, that I
Speaker 2: would not be able to make it because life is
Speaker 2: so hard sometimes. I think that the idea for me,
Speaker 2: as someone who who writes and creates other things, the
Speaker 2: idea of being able to take the pain and metabolize
Speaker 2: it and change it into something that can help other people,
Speaker 2: especially you know, in your line of work. I think
Speaker 2: that the ability to be able to tell a story,
Speaker 2: if it's your own or someone else's, or an adjacency
Speaker 2: like that, the idea of everything you're feeling now, kind
Speaker 2: of taking it down as a note and observing it
Speaker 2: the way. You know, we're meant to look at moments
Speaker 2: and live in the present, which I have not figured
Speaker 2: out how to do, but maybe one day. But in
Speaker 2: the meantime, just looking at the moment and just noting
Speaker 2: it down, noting the pain and knowing that one day
Speaker 2: you're going to be able to turn that pain into
Speaker 2: something that somebody else can make somebody else feel. See
Speaker 2: that gives us all the purpose. I think you have
Speaker 2: all the purpose in the world.
Speaker 1: I really do.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I do too. I do too. I believe in you.
Speaker 1: You're going to be great.
Speaker 3: This is important. I'm so glad you called in. And
Speaker 3: I want you to reframe this idea of loss. You're
Speaker 3: also going to gain so much by taking this step
Speaker 3: and moving in the right direction of your life, like
Speaker 3: you were going to gain. So like you're thinking about
Speaker 3: all the things you're going to lose, you don't have
Speaker 3: to lose all those things.
Speaker 1: So I don't want you to look at it like that.
Speaker 3: Just you're redefining the relationship for what it actually is
Speaker 3: instead of pretending it's something it's not.
Speaker 5: That is really helpful to see outside of my own head,
Speaker 5: to get that perspective.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So write that down, okay, Okay, I will, and
Speaker 3: then write down everything else because you're going to use
Speaker 3: it and create and move it into art at some
Speaker 3: point in your life, and and you're going to help
Speaker 3: a lot of people.
Speaker 6: So thank you.
Speaker 1: I have faith in you.
Speaker 3: Please keep us posted, Okay, Well, let us know what's
Speaker 3: going on, and if you need to talk again, we'll
Speaker 3: be here.
Speaker 6: Okay, thank you both so much.
Speaker 1: Okay, bye, cutie, thank you.
Speaker 2: Bye.
Speaker 1: Oh God. I know that one's a heartbreaker.
Speaker 3: You need to give her my phone number she needs
Speaker 3: to text me on a daily basis. I'll send her
Speaker 3: positive affirmations about herself.
Speaker 2: That's the thing. If we just had more people doing
Speaker 2: what you just, if that were just going on everywhere,
Speaker 2: we'd be good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, Well, let's take a quick break and we'll.
Speaker 3: Wrap up with Okay, Well, we're going to take a
Speaker 3: break and Lisa and I are going to take a
Speaker 3: virtual bath, and we're back.
Speaker 4: Well, Tamara says, Hi, Chelsea, My daughter's turning sixteen this
Speaker 4: summer and finishing her sophomore year in high school. I've
Speaker 4: been talking to her about her plans for college and
Speaker 4: trying to nudge her to get prepared for applying.
Speaker 1: And choosing a major, but she's been brushing it off.
Speaker 4: I've sent her many resources on the college selection and
Speaker 4: application timelines, but I doubt she's looked at any of them.
Speaker 4: Her signed up for info packets from various New England
Speaker 4: colleges and sent them to her, but again I doubt
Speaker 4: she even looked at them. When I asked her what
Speaker 4: kind of job she wants, she gives me vague answers,
Speaker 4: like something in biology. I told her the best way
Speaker 4: to narrow down a career path is to look at
Speaker 4: current job listings, examine the skills and requirements for the
Speaker 4: available positions, but mainly look at the salary offered. I
Speaker 4: even sent her tiktoks of young adults talking about selecting
Speaker 4: a profession, where they expose the fact that if you
Speaker 4: ask any kid what profession they want, they list the
Speaker 4: same ten professions teacher, doctor, and nurse, policeman, firefighter, etc.
Speaker 4: When they're in fact over ten thousand professions out there
Speaker 4: that kids just don't know about. How do I motivate
Speaker 4: my teenager to start seriously thinking about selecting a career
Speaker 4: path and applying to colleges before it's too late.
Speaker 3: To Mara, I mean, first of all, she needs to
Speaker 3: understand you have to stop paying for things for her,
Speaker 3: so that she has to understand that eventually she has
Speaker 3: to get an income. That's the first step to let
Speaker 3: them know that they actually have to have some accountability.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, Lisa, what do you think.
Speaker 3: I don't know how you motivate a sixteen year old
Speaker 3: because it's like if you're nagging, nagging, nagging about the
Speaker 3: same thing, it has the opposite effect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, if they might go out and get a
Speaker 2: job really fast. If you're nagging a lot, you know,
Speaker 2: just to get out of the house.
Speaker 1: That would be a good It doesn't sound like that's
Speaker 1: the situation now.
Speaker 2: No, No, I think she's the mom. Sounds like she's
Speaker 2: doing a lot of the right things. But I think
Speaker 2: that the first thing you said is essentially, if the
Speaker 2: daughter needed something, she would try to find a path
Speaker 2: to get what she needed. It doesn't sound like she
Speaker 2: needs or wants anything, So I think the goal is
Speaker 2: to create the need or the want, and if creating
Speaker 2: that is you know, taking away some of the assistants
Speaker 2: and support for the non food and water type things
Speaker 2: the children need. I think if taking away some of
Speaker 2: that extra support for extracurricular things might make her daughter go, oh,
Speaker 2: WHOA hold on a second, the buck is gonna stop
Speaker 2: at some point. But I think, you know, in terms
Speaker 2: of path, I believe that she will find her path
Speaker 2: because it sounds like her mother is going to stick
Speaker 2: with her and stick on it. But I also think that,
Speaker 2: you know, it might just it it it. Maybe she
Speaker 2: doesn't go to college right away, you know, maybe that
Speaker 2: is her path, and maybe she sees all of her
Speaker 2: friends in college being happy and excited about X, Y
Speaker 2: or Z, and then she's like, I want to go,
Speaker 2: or maybe she finds a completely different path for herself
Speaker 2: and doesn't. But I do think that what you said
Speaker 2: is number one sort of you know, increasing the motivation
Speaker 2: to be said.
Speaker 3: She needs to show some initiative, Like she has to
Speaker 3: know that when she's done with high school, if she
Speaker 3: doesn't go to college, what's the game plan. She's gonna
Speaker 3: stay at the house. You have to define what's going
Speaker 3: to happen. She's gonna stay at the house and she's
Speaker 3: gonna have to go get a job. Did you want
Speaker 3: to go get a job or would she rather go
Speaker 3: to college. I'm sure she'd rather go to college than
Speaker 3: get a job. In the interim, She's gonna have to
Speaker 3: fucking get a part time job anyway. Since you have
Speaker 3: to start understanding what responsibility looks like, I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: you can do plenty of shit at sixteen. You can babysit,
Speaker 3: you can you know, find different ways, and in many
Speaker 3: states you can work at sixteen with your parents' permission.
Speaker 1: So I would say try a different tactic.
Speaker 3: Also, like what you're doing by sending her stuff is
Speaker 3: probably just nagging nagging, nagging. You need to get real
Speaker 3: with what her reality is going to look like after
Speaker 3: school when all her friends are going off to college
Speaker 3: and she has no plan.
Speaker 1: As far as the majors go. I kind of feel like,
Speaker 1: let her go with whatever major. Don't worry about that
Speaker 1: changes their major.
Speaker 4: I mean, every teenager I know who just went to college, like,
Speaker 4: none of them are going to be what their major exactly.
Speaker 1: One step out of time. Yeah, yeah, totally, so totally okay,
Speaker 1: Well any the pressure off a little bit tomorrow, but
Speaker 1: also set some boundaries. Yeah, exactly. So sick of parenting advice. Honestly, Lisa,
Speaker 1: I love you. You're so fun and normal. It's so
Speaker 1: nice to meet writers that are normal.
Speaker 2: There aren't many.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I keep saying that.
Speaker 3: Every time we have a writer on, I'm always like,
Speaker 3: thank you for being normal, And it's like what happened
Speaker 3: to me was some writer. I must have had some
Speaker 3: experience that I with a writer where I was like,
Speaker 3: holy fucking shit, is this your personality? Because I'm so
Speaker 3: pleased when writers can talk and like be normal.
Speaker 1: Ellie, thank you.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it because I have felt the same way
Speaker 2: after meeting many of my.
Speaker 1: Heroes, contemporaries or heroes.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: What are you reading right now, Lisa?
Speaker 2: I am reading Bookshop Women, Big Swiss, and burnham Wood.
Speaker 1: Do you read three books at a time.
Speaker 2: I read more than three books at a time. I
Speaker 2: don't finish them very quickly.
Speaker 1: I read.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: I do the same thing.
Speaker 3: I wrotate between books and then I'm like, oh, this
Speaker 3: one I didn't finish three months ago, and then i
Speaker 3: just jogged my memory with the last chapter. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 3: I'll finish this now exactly.
Speaker 2: And I also do that for inspiration and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: but that's exactly how I read.
Speaker 1: I once read a book and halfway through I was like,
Speaker 1: have I read this before?
Speaker 3: And then I was like, oh, because that happens with
Speaker 3: TV all the time, right, But when it happens with
Speaker 3: a book, I'm like, wait a second, I know what
Speaker 3: the fuck is about to happen to you? Anyway, Okay,
Speaker 3: everyone is going to watch Three Women. I'm very excited
Speaker 3: for you, and thank you so much for spending time
Speaker 3: with us today.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to see you
Speaker 2: again and a pleasure to meet you Catherine.
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 3: Thanks Lisa, Likewise, I can't wait to see you the
Speaker 3: next time I have to interview you, the next time
Speaker 3: I have to the next time I have to interview you.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, bye, Lisa, thank you so much, thank you
Speaker 1: hearing you. Okay.
Speaker 3: So upcoming shows that I have you, guys, Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston,
Speaker 3: South Carolina.
Speaker 1: I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint Louis and
Speaker 1: Kansas City.
Speaker 3: And then I will be in Las Vegas performing at
Speaker 3: the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel. My first three
Speaker 3: dates in Vegas are September first, Labor Day weekend, and
Speaker 3: then November second and November thirty. I'm coming to Brooklyn,
Speaker 3: New York, at the King's Theater on November eighth, and
Speaker 3: I have tickets on sale throughout the end of the
Speaker 3: year in December, So if you're in a city like
Speaker 3: Philadelphia or Bethlehem, or San Diego or New Orleans or Omaha,
Speaker 3: check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets.
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 4: If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
Speaker 4: at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
Speaker 4: sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
Speaker 4: and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law, and
Speaker 4: be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot
Speaker 4: com