Speaker 1: Hey, what's up everybody.
Speaker 2: I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to politics and I heard
Speaker 2: podcast and unbothered production.
Speaker 1: Time to get spolitical.
Speaker 2: It's been twenty two years since the NFL adopted the
Speaker 2: Rooney Rule, and with so many corporations go aside when
Speaker 2: it comes to their diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives, now
Speaker 2: seems like an appropriate time to check in on the
Speaker 2: impact of the Rooney Rule. First, let's start with why
Speaker 2: the Rooney Rule was even created, because it seems like
Speaker 2: whenever we have a conversation about why any measure is
Speaker 2: adopted to correct systemic inequity, people never paint the full
Speaker 2: picture about the origin story. In two thousand and two,
Speaker 2: the late Johnny Cochrane, who famously got oj Simpson acquitted
Speaker 2: for double murder, and civil rights attorney Cyrus Mary, who
Speaker 2: won huge discrimination lawsuits against Texaco and Coca Cola. They
Speaker 2: threatened to sue the NFL for racial discrimination. Now, what
Speaker 2: drove Cochrane and Mary to threaten the NFL with the
Speaker 2: lawsuit was the firings of Tony Dungee, who was then
Speaker 2: the coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and Dennis Green,
Speaker 2: who was fired even though he had made the playoffs
Speaker 2: eight of nine seasons as head coach of the Minnesota Vikings.
Speaker 3: The Bears are who we thought they were. Now, that's
Speaker 3: why we took the damn field. Now, if you want
Speaker 3: to crown them, they crowned her ass. But they are
Speaker 3: who we thought they were, and we got about the hook.
Speaker 2: Thanks. Now, I'm sorry if you mentioned Dennis Green. It's
Speaker 2: like you gotta play that clip the awkward Fanks coach.
Speaker 2: It just kills me every time. Anyway, The firings of
Speaker 2: both Dungee and Green drew some raised eyebrows. When Dungee
Speaker 2: was let go, the Bucks were fifty four and forty
Speaker 2: two in his six seasons in Tampa, during which the
Speaker 2: Bucks went to the playoffs four times, including appearing in
Speaker 2: the nineteen ninety nine NFC Championship Game. Now, before Dungee
Speaker 2: became the coach, the Bucks had only made the playoffs
Speaker 2: three times in seasons, and as a franchise, had a
Speaker 2: thirty percent win percentage with the championship roster. The Bucks
Speaker 2: won the Super Bowl the season after Dungee was fired
Speaker 2: with John Grutin, who during his seven seasons in Tampa
Speaker 2: only made the playoffs twice after winning the Super Bowl
Speaker 2: and finished with a sixty to fifty.
Speaker 1: Seven overall record.
Speaker 2: Green meanwhile guided the Vikings to two appearances in the
Speaker 2: NFC Championship four division titles, and they only missed the
Speaker 2: playoffs twice in his ten seasons. Now Green also was
Speaker 2: only the second black coach in NFL history. Now attorneys
Speaker 2: Cochrane and Mary They saw these firings as emblematic of
Speaker 2: a deeper systemic problem in the NFL. In nineteen twenty one,
Speaker 2: Fritz Poller became the NFL's first black head coach, only
Speaker 2: it wasn't known as the NFL then, but the American
Speaker 2: Professional Football Association. It would be sixty eight years before
Speaker 2: the NFL had another black head coach, Artchell, who took
Speaker 2: over for the Raiders in nineteen eighty nine. When the
Speaker 2: Roomy Rule was adopted in two thousand and three, the
Speaker 2: NFL only had five black.
Speaker 1: Coaches in its history.
Speaker 2: Since the Roomy rule was adopted roughly twenty two years ago,
Speaker 2: there have been one hundred and thirty nine head coaches
Speaker 2: in the NFL, and only twenty six haven't been white.
Speaker 1: Now, considering how.
Speaker 2: Long it took the NFL to get its first black
Speaker 2: coach in the modern era, and that entering this season
Speaker 2: there were nine minority coaches. You could make an argument
Speaker 2: that the Rooney rule has kind of sort of made
Speaker 2: some progress, But as we've seen through this most recent
Speaker 2: hiring cycle, and by no means what was this the
Speaker 2: first year this happened, the Rooney rule also puts minority
Speaker 2: coaches and owners in awkward positions. It also in some
Speaker 2: ways degrades minority coaches who are just looking to be
Speaker 2: given a fair shot. Now, since this current administration is
Speaker 2: insistent on weaponizing DEI and dragging us back to the
Speaker 2: days of whites only, should the Rooney rule be the
Speaker 2: next casualty? Is it time for it to go? Let's
Speaker 2: ask the important question. Is the lack of black and
Speaker 2: minority coaches an issue of race? Let me give you
Speaker 2: the definition of systemic racism. According to Merriam Webster, it
Speaker 2: means the oppression of a racial group to the advantage
Speaker 2: of another, as perpetuated by inequity within interconnected systems such
Speaker 2: as political, economic, and social systems. In twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: the Washington Post did a special investigative report called how
Speaker 2: the NFL blocks Black coaches. It is a thorough and
Speaker 2: comprehensive report back by data. Some of the conclusions drawn
Speaker 2: from this report are these, black coaches tend to perform
Speaker 2: about as well as white coaches, but while white candidates
Speaker 2: are offered a vast and diverse set of roots to
Speaker 2: the league stop coaching jobs, black coaches face a much
Speaker 2: narrower set of paths. They have had to serve significantly
Speaker 2: longer as mid level assistants, are more likely to be
Speaker 2: given interim jobs than full time ones, and are held
Speaker 2: to a higher standard when it comes to keeping their jobs.
Speaker 2: Since nineteen ninety, black coaches have been twice as likely
Speaker 2: as others to be fired after leading a team to
Speaker 2: a regular season record of five hundred or better. Now,
Speaker 2: I'm sure, as I'm relaying this data, some of you
Speaker 2: are riding fast into the comments section to say, it's
Speaker 2: not about color rays, it's about the best person for
Speaker 2: the job. Well, was it about the best person for
Speaker 2: the job? When the NFL went almost seventy years without
Speaker 2: a black head coach. In the twenty years that passed
Speaker 2: after the Rooney Rule, only eleven percent of the head
Speaker 2: coaches hired were black. So does that mean all the
Speaker 2: white guys were simply just smarter. Let's not forget the
Speaker 2: history of the NFL is filled with examples of the
Speaker 2: league being in lockstep with systemic racism. In nineteen thirty four,
Speaker 2: George Preston Marshall, the owner of the Washington football team,
Speaker 2: and by the way, remembering why I'm avoiding using their
Speaker 2: old nickname another hint. Anyway, George Preston Marshall executed his
Speaker 2: secret plan to ban black players from the league. It's
Speaker 2: a history the NFL probably doesn't love to talk about
Speaker 2: because Marshall didn't act alone. He convinced other prominent NFL
Speaker 2: families to join the band, and some of those families
Speaker 2: still own NFL teams today, the Mars who owned the Giants,
Speaker 2: and wouldn't you know, also the Boonies. This isn't to
Speaker 2: say that you can't atone for a racist pass, but
Speaker 2: how much has the NFL really atoned. There are still
Speaker 2: five NFL franchises that have never had a permanent black
Speaker 2: head coach. We witnessed Colin Kaepernick having his entire career
Speaker 2: destroyed because he took a knee during the national Anthem
Speaker 2: to protest against racial injustice. Meanwhile, Nazi salutes by the
Speaker 2: de facto president, totally cool. It was just in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one that the NFL agreed to ban race norming,
Speaker 2: a practice the league willingly engaged in to deny black retirees'
Speaker 2: access to the NFL's multi billion dollar concussion settlement. Race
Speaker 2: norming is the practice of assuming that black players have
Speaker 2: lower cognitive abilities. So if a former black player is
Speaker 2: presumed to have a lower cognitive ability, then it is
Speaker 2: concluded he has been impaired less due to playing football.
Speaker 1: Kind of fucked up, isn't it. Now?
Speaker 2: Remember, in this same league, it was accepted that black
Speaker 2: players were not smart enough to play quarterback and could
Speaker 2: not be the leader of men. That same also existed
Speaker 2: when it came to black coaches. But it wasn't just
Speaker 2: this undercurrent of systemic racism that minority coaches are up against.
Speaker 1: It's also nepotism.
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, there were seven hundred and seventeen
Speaker 2: on field coaches in the NFL, and at least ninety
Speaker 2: three of those coaches, or thirteen percent of them, had
Speaker 2: our father, son, or brother who was a current or
Speaker 2: former NFL head coach. Seventy six percent of those family
Speaker 2: connections were white USA Today Sports analyzed seventy nine father
Speaker 2: son connections and they found nearly half of the sons
Speaker 2: got their first NFL jobs on the same staffs as
Speaker 2: their father. Now, I think you can guess the race
Speaker 2: of those sons and fathers. This past hiring cycle, we
Speaker 2: saw examples of NFL teams engaging in sham interviews to
Speaker 2: meet Rooney Rule requirements, which mandates that teams interview two
Speaker 2: external minority candidates for a head coaching position and one
Speaker 2: external candidate or a coordinator position. To satisfy the Rooney rules,
Speaker 2: several teams interviewed black candidates that they had no intr
Speaker 2: in hiring. The Cowboys, for example, hire Matt Eberflus. They
Speaker 2: recently fired Chicago Bear's head coach for their defensive coordinator position,
Speaker 2: and even though there were reports that said Eberflus was
Speaker 2: their guy, they couldn't make the hire official.
Speaker 1: Until they interviewed a minority candidate.
Speaker 2: Now inner Chicago Bears secondary coach Andre Curtis, who interviewed
Speaker 2: with Dallas and allowed them to meet the Rooney rule criterion. Now,
Speaker 2: if you're Andre Curtis, do you still interview even though
Speaker 2: you know you aren't getting the job now. Some would
Speaker 2: say he should do it just to get an idea
Speaker 2: of what these head coaching interviews are like. Some would
Speaker 2: counter and say, why play the token. But the problem
Speaker 2: isn't the rule. The problem is that there has been
Speaker 2: no real punishment for violating the Rooney Rule, at least
Speaker 2: not a punishment that would make teams and owners think
Speaker 2: twice about not taking the process seriously. In two thousand
Speaker 2: and three, the Detroit Lions were fined two hundred thousand
Speaker 2: dollars for violating the Rooney rule because they didn't interview
Speaker 2: a minority candidate before they hireed Steve Marrucci. The Lions
Speaker 2: didn't lose any draft picks, and today they're the only
Speaker 2: team that has ever been punished behind the Rooney rule.
Speaker 2: Former NFL Players Union president D Smith pointed out in
Speaker 2: a piece for Yale Law Policy and Review, the Rooney
Speaker 2: Rule isn't a rule, but merely a suggestion because the
Speaker 2: NFL has no outside entity that determines punishment and owners
Speaker 2: simply don't bear any of the consequences. Smith wrote fine
Speaker 2: should start at five million and escalate for individuals and
Speaker 2: clubs who violated the adopted system. The reality is that
Speaker 2: teams do not care about draft picks or minor finds
Speaker 2: as punishment for violating league guidelines. The proof is that
Speaker 2: we still have consistent and repeated violation of the Rooney
Speaker 2: rule process and have not achieved the Roony rules goal.
Speaker 2: The NFL uses significant finds to police player conduct both
Speaker 2: on and off the field, claiming that these finds promote
Speaker 2: uniformity and protect the NFL product. It is ironic that
Speaker 2: the league has not adopted a similar zero tolerance fine
Speaker 2: structure when it comes to achieving a fair and inclusive workplace.
Speaker 4: Nah.
Speaker 2: I know many people think you can't legislate behavior or fairness,
Speaker 2: but in this country that's the only way any sort
Speaker 2: of progress has ever been made. People have never decided
Speaker 2: out of the goodness of their heart to adopt equality
Speaker 2: as a practice. Look no further than the Civil War
Speaker 2: and the Civil Rights movement. It always has been by
Speaker 2: fours and through a painful process. Considering our willingness historically
Speaker 2: to legislate inequality, it seems we should keep that same
Speaker 2: energy when it comes to correcting inequality.
Speaker 1: I'm Jamelle Hill, and I approve this message.
Speaker 2: Coming up next on politics now, I don't want to
Speaker 2: pat myself on the back for the good timing award.
Speaker 2: But I'm about to pat myself on the back for
Speaker 2: the good timing award. When I recorded this interview with
Speaker 2: today's guest, she had not yet won the Australian Open
Speaker 2: Devil's title.
Speaker 1: Now she has.
Speaker 2: For her winning it is just a testament to her
Speaker 2: incredible talent and strength. She went through a lot as
Speaker 2: a young tennis pro, including body shaming as a woman
Speaker 2: of color, the path ten and this hasn't been easy
Speaker 2: for her, and she'll share how she's persevered to become
Speaker 2: not only a great player, but one of the most
Speaker 2: important and distinct voices in the sport. Coming up next
Speaker 2: on politics, Taylor Downson. All right, Taylor, I am going
Speaker 2: to start this podcast with a question I ask every guest,
Speaker 2: and that is, can you name a athlete or a
Speaker 2: sports moment that made you love sports?
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, I think it was. It was several, but
Speaker 4: a big iconic moment for me because I never played
Speaker 4: any other sports. So an iconic moment for me was
Speaker 4: watching Serena come out on Arthur ash Stadium night match
Speaker 4: and she wore the denim skirt with the boot and
Speaker 4: like there were her shoes that were boots, and then
Speaker 4: the boots unzipped and then she just had her sneakers on.
Speaker 4: And I just thought that was like the coolest thing,
Speaker 4: you know, just being able first of all, having someone
Speaker 4: who's playing a sport the way that I was, that
Speaker 4: looked like me, that was unapologetically black, you know, wearing braids,
Speaker 4: you know, constantly were talked about at the early parts
Speaker 4: of their career, with wearing beats in their hair and
Speaker 4: all of the things. But and then to take like
Speaker 4: fashion risks like that, I thought that was just like
Speaker 4: the coolest thing because I've never really fit inside of
Speaker 4: a box, right, So it's like that was just like
Speaker 4: total rebel moment. Rebel in the tennis world. I don't care,
Speaker 4: I'm going to do my own thing. And I just
Speaker 4: thought that was like so cool because it showed me that, like,
Speaker 4: you could be whatever you want to be. You can
Speaker 4: do whatever you want. But it definitely helps that you're
Speaker 4: winning and that you're kicking everyone's ass and you're number one,
Speaker 4: you know, it's a lot easier for people to like
Speaker 4: shut up and just kind of like deal with it,
Speaker 4: you know. So that for me, that was a moment
Speaker 4: where it kind of made me really love the ability
Speaker 4: to not only like play the game and be someone
Speaker 4: of color who's played the game, but then also like
Speaker 4: it gave me the confidence to know that I can
Speaker 4: really express myself in the game.
Speaker 2: Let's take people through your origin story a little bit
Speaker 2: as it relates to tennis.
Speaker 1: How did you get introduced to the game?
Speaker 4: So my mom played until she was eight months pregnant
Speaker 4: with me, and ironically enough, I played until the day
Speaker 4: before I went to the hospital with my son. So
Speaker 4: I guess I.
Speaker 1: Was gonna say, there's kind of a theme there, there's
Speaker 1: a pattern.
Speaker 4: Yes, And so it was. It was very interesting because
Speaker 4: I played, she played until she was eight months pregnant
Speaker 4: with me. I was always around the game, so for me,
Speaker 4: it was something that I was used to. My mom
Speaker 4: and my first coach, his wife, played doubles together, so
Speaker 4: I was always around the game, even when I was
Speaker 4: a kid and we didn't want to place like, we
Speaker 4: didn't want to go out there, so we would just
Speaker 4: be at the park, who was always a round court.
Speaker 4: So for me, it was just like kind of a
Speaker 4: natural evolution. And then my sister started taking lessons, and
Speaker 4: I'm the kind of person where it's like, if you're
Speaker 4: going to do it, I want to do it. And
Speaker 4: if I can't do it, you can't do it. So uh,
Speaker 4: for me, it was very much yeah, no, we're if you.
Speaker 4: If you're doing it, I'm going to do it too.
Speaker 4: And so she was taking lessons and I was behind
Speaker 4: the court and I would throw balls at her because
Speaker 4: I was like, no, this is mine, Like I'm doing
Speaker 4: it too, right. And so my coach he was like,
Speaker 4: get off the court, get off the court. No, wouldn't
Speaker 4: do it. So he kicked me off the court that day,
Speaker 4: came back, she said another lesson, came back, did the
Speaker 4: same thing. Someone put someone give her a racket. Please,
Speaker 4: somebody give her a racket, like she is getting on
Speaker 4: our nerves. We don't just please someone help us out. So,
Speaker 4: long story short, that's how it all started. And here
Speaker 4: we are. I don't know.
Speaker 2: So you sort of BULLI you bullied your way in,
Speaker 2: which is in some respects would be sort of a
Speaker 2: tiny bit of a theme for your career. Now, you
Speaker 2: left home, I believe, at fourteen years old to pursue
Speaker 2: this career in tennis. How did you arrive at that
Speaker 2: decision that you needed to do something like that, or
Speaker 2: you and your family, because I know you didn't make
Speaker 2: this as an individual decision, because that's when you think
Speaker 2: about how we all were fourteen years old. That's a
Speaker 2: pretty monumentous decision. So how did you kind of get
Speaker 2: there to say, hey, I got to do this if
Speaker 2: I want to be really good and really a professional
Speaker 2: in this sport.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, I mean I had a lot of opportunities
Speaker 4: of like when I was coming up, you know, my
Speaker 4: coach was a very avid like you need to play
Speaker 4: every week. So we played tons of tournaments, you know,
Speaker 4: local tournaments to state tournaments, southern tournaments, and worked our
Speaker 4: way from each level. And you know, I realized that
Speaker 4: a lot of people were in Florida or California at
Speaker 4: the time, where the two big places. Due to the weather,
Speaker 4: I hadn't been invited several times to USTA camp so
Speaker 4: out in California, out down in Florida, and you know,
Speaker 4: I just felt like, you know, it was a good opportunity.
Speaker 4: I actually had gotten accepted into the program when I
Speaker 4: was thirteen, So I was in seventh grade, and three
Speaker 4: days before I was supposed to leave to go, I
Speaker 4: told my family, I'm not ready. I had all my
Speaker 4: stuff packed. I had all of my close packed bens
Speaker 4: stacked up and everything, and I was just like, I'm
Speaker 4: just not ready yet. And so I finished out middle school.
Speaker 4: So I did my finished out eighth grade year, and
Speaker 4: then I was like, okay, now I'm ready experienced high
Speaker 4: school for a month, which was like the most fun
Speaker 4: that I've had. People like, did you go to school?
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, for a month, and but it
Speaker 4: was it was it was one of the things where
Speaker 4: it's like in my head, I was like, Okay, I
Speaker 4: know that if this is something that I want to pursue,
Speaker 4: like I want to try, and I knew that financially,
Speaker 4: my parents weren't going to be able to give me
Speaker 4: the opportunities to travel to Australia, into France and to
Speaker 4: all of the places even where the Junior Grand Slams are.
Speaker 4: We're talking Australia, Paris, London, and in New York, right,
Speaker 4: So even if you take those four tournaments, that's a
Speaker 4: lot of traveling. It's a lot of money. And so
Speaker 4: I knew going down to the USCA, I said, you know,
Speaker 4: I'm going to use their finances to be able to
Speaker 4: give me opportunities to play and to train, to get
Speaker 4: proper structure and just kind of like fully dive into
Speaker 4: you know, the game because up until I was fourteen,
Speaker 4: you know, I was doing tennis in school, so I
Speaker 4: was doing school and then would have my left and
Speaker 4: everything you know in the afternoons after school. Always education
Speaker 4: was a huge priority for my for my parents, so
Speaker 4: that was never that was never an option, you know,
Speaker 4: to not be educated and to not do well in school.
Speaker 4: So you know, that's why it's kind of like crazy
Speaker 4: to me sometimes where I'm like, Okay, these kids at
Speaker 4: like six are in academies and doing the things that
Speaker 4: I was doing at fourteen, they're doing it at six
Speaker 4: and seven, you know, which is which is kind of
Speaker 4: crazy to me, but hey whatever, Yeah, So that was
Speaker 4: that was really the mentality in the mindset. I just
Speaker 4: really wanted to give myself an opportunity to see how
Speaker 4: far I could go with like being fully supported financially
Speaker 4: and to be able to not have to worry about
Speaker 4: structure and organization of like I'll have a coach, I'll
Speaker 4: have fitness, I'll have everything that I need to hopefully,
Speaker 4: you know, pan out to become a professional. And ironically enough,
Speaker 4: a lot of the people that I was with in
Speaker 4: that age range, the guys, a majority of them went pro.
Speaker 4: Not all of them, but a majority of them. And
Speaker 4: on the female side, a lot of the people when
Speaker 4: I was living on campus, a lot of them went
Speaker 4: to college and are very successful in their own ways. So,
Speaker 4: you know, it wasn't always to say all be all
Speaker 4: that being in that program was going to ensure that
Speaker 4: that you went pro and that you were going to
Speaker 4: be successful, But it did give us an opportunity to
Speaker 4: travel and to you know, have everything that we needed
Speaker 4: to be as professional as possible.
Speaker 2: Now, you're from the South side of Chicago, and when
Speaker 2: people think about the tennis world, you know, we know
Speaker 2: what that world looks like financially Racially, people don't aren't
Speaker 2: in tennis that come from where you come from typically,
Speaker 2: So for the people out there who are like sort
Speaker 2: of unfamiliar with what this grind looks like. As you're
Speaker 2: coming up and you already mentioned the expense, like what
Speaker 2: all goes into that when you're trying to become a
Speaker 2: professional tennis player and have become a professional tenant player
Speaker 2: and you know you may not have your resources don't
Speaker 2: look like how a lot of people you're playing against,
Speaker 2: how what theirs looks like?
Speaker 1: What is that part of it like?
Speaker 4: It's really difficult. This is probably one of the toughest
Speaker 4: sports because with tennis, you it's really hard to practice
Speaker 4: on your own. So in football you can go on
Speaker 4: a field and run routes. Right, in basketball, you can
Speaker 4: go and find a hoop and you can just shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot.
Speaker 4: You can practice, but if you don't have a wall,
Speaker 4: it's really difficult to practice and do the things that
Speaker 4: you that you need to do and get the feel
Speaker 4: where the ball's leaving your racket, it's coming back, it's
Speaker 4: you know, doing all the things. A racket costs minimum
Speaker 4: one hundred to two hundred and fifty dollars just one.
Speaker 4: A cannon balls is twelve dollars for three balls, you know,
Speaker 4: one can. Court time is usually on the cheap side,
Speaker 4: forty dollars an hour, you know. Then we're talking about
Speaker 4: privates that are usually one hundred bucks an hour, eighty
Speaker 4: bucks an hour, and you do those couple times a day,
Speaker 4: and then you have maybe have group lessons and that's
Speaker 4: maybe two hundred three hundred bucks a week, you know,
Speaker 4: so it's and then that's training, right then we have travel,
Speaker 4: so you have to drive or fly to tournaments. Tournament
Speaker 4: usually have forty to eighty dollars entry fees. And there's
Speaker 4: been a time where I played a professional tournament. In
Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, I played a pro tournament and I made
Speaker 4: sixty six dollars minus forty dollars entry fee I drove
Speaker 4: to the tournament. So I had twenty six dollars that
Speaker 4: I left to a professional tournament with and I was like,
Speaker 4: this can't even fill up my gas tape.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say like, yeah, so you basically
Speaker 2: you can't.
Speaker 1: That was a net loss, Like, oh you big.
Speaker 4: Time, right, totally, totally. So this is just like, these
Speaker 4: are all of the expenses that you have to try
Speaker 4: and give yourself these opportunities. Right now, we're talking about
Speaker 4: if a tournament is a week long, you're talking about hotel, food, travel, gas,
Speaker 4: if you drove all of the things. So there are
Speaker 4: so many things that add up, and you could potentially
Speaker 4: you can lose out on a lot, you know, and
Speaker 4: in juniors, your parents are fronting this constantly until I mean,
Speaker 4: if you unless you turn pro or unless you you know,
Speaker 4: sign to an agency and you get a signing bonus
Speaker 4: or whatever the case may be. But that's the only
Speaker 4: way that you're getting or you have sponsors, just the
Speaker 4: only way you're getting like upfront money. But if you
Speaker 4: don't have that, you have to find a way to
Speaker 4: fut that bill until you start making money. And I
Speaker 4: can tell you for one hundred percent. In fact, for me,
Speaker 4: for years, I was in the negative. I could tell you.
Speaker 4: Twenty nineteen was the first time in my career that
Speaker 4: I was like comfortably like okay money wise, like and
Speaker 4: that's because I made the round of sixteen of the
Speaker 4: US Open, which gave me a really nice, you know,
Speaker 4: cushion chunk of money. But up until then, it was
Speaker 4: constantly like, all right, I gotta this, this what's coming out,
Speaker 4: and I gotta do this, and I gotta travel here,
Speaker 4: and you know, being very you know, I don't want
Speaker 4: to say frugal, because I still am, but you know,
Speaker 4: very aware and cognizant of ebbs and flows of the finances. Right,
Speaker 4: So it's it's really hard. This sport is like so
Speaker 4: it's a it's one of the things that a lot
Speaker 4: of people don't talk about because it's like they the
Speaker 4: narrative of like equal prize money. And they talk about
Speaker 4: the prize money and the money that people make to
Speaker 4: like at the top, but you don't understand the pyramid
Speaker 4: and the trickle down. And it's kind of crazy because
Speaker 4: the pyramids actually like this, when you go to the top,
Speaker 4: the people at the top get the most. So the
Speaker 4: people at the top who have sponsors, who have all
Speaker 4: these things, who are typically going deep in tournaments, so
Speaker 4: making a lot of prize money, they get a lot,
Speaker 4: like they get hotels for free, you know, cars, transportation
Speaker 4: for free. And then as you move down where you're
Speaker 4: making less money, you get the least, whereas like you
Speaker 4: really have to pay and really finance and put the
Speaker 4: bill for like everything that you're doing in your career
Speaker 4: to try and get to this level, to try and
Speaker 4: make it to the middle, and then you know, continue
Speaker 4: to grow. So you know, I feel like I'm very
Speaker 4: fortunate because I've experienced this game on every level, like
Speaker 4: from the very bottom. Like I like for weeks at
Speaker 4: a time, months at a time, being in the red right,
Speaker 4: I may I one year. I want three matches in
Speaker 4: a year, So you can imagine like how much money
Speaker 4: because I played the entire year, I played a whole season,
Speaker 4: so you can imagine how much money was going out
Speaker 4: but not a lot coming in. So I've been at
Speaker 4: that place where I've been here and worked my way
Speaker 4: up and went back down, you know, worked my way
Speaker 4: through every single level. So I have a true appreciation
Speaker 4: for like every every level, I have an understanding and
Speaker 4: I can relate to every person on every level. But
Speaker 4: then also I have a true appreciation and gratitude like
Speaker 4: where I am because I'm just like I know where
Speaker 4: I came from and I know that like it was
Speaker 4: nothing except hard work and like mental grind and like
Speaker 4: making a decision and a choice to be like okay,
Speaker 4: I'm going to change this. That got me out of
Speaker 4: those places. You know. So this sport is like it
Speaker 4: is so so so difficult, and you know it requires
Speaker 4: it's very it's almost impossible to do on your own.
Speaker 4: So it's really hard.
Speaker 2: With that being said though, knowing that you're when you're
Speaker 2: in that situation and you know you're spending more money
Speaker 2: than you're actually bringing in as a player, mentally, how
Speaker 2: do you deal with that? How does that impact how
Speaker 2: you play?
Speaker 4: I mean it was hard, but also I'm I'm the
Speaker 4: kind of person that I thrive with chips on my shoulder.
Speaker 4: So there were times where when let me say this,
Speaker 4: when I got to the place in my mind where
Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm not doing this anymore, Like I'm I
Speaker 4: don't like where I'm at. I'm gonna make a change.
Speaker 4: When I knew that and I went to it was like, nah,
Speaker 4: I gotta, I gotta, I gotta win. When I made
Speaker 4: those decisions, then it was like it was a fuel,
Speaker 4: Like it was a like a fire where it's like, okay, Taylor,
Speaker 4: like I'm not gonna let this person take food off
Speaker 4: my plate. I'm not gonna let you take money out
Speaker 4: of my pocket, you know. And even when I was
Speaker 4: coming back, I was like, no, you're taking money out
Speaker 4: of my son's pocket, out of you know, food out
Speaker 4: of his place. So it's like I had to find
Speaker 4: those motivational factors of like how to turn you know,
Speaker 4: the situation to something where it's like fuel for me,
Speaker 4: because if you look at it and if you're aware
Speaker 4: of it constantly, it's so like it's such a downer
Speaker 4: or it was just like what the hell am I
Speaker 4: going to do? And I'm so grateful because I've had
Speaker 4: people in my corner. Like my coach was like, Okay,
Speaker 4: I'll pay for my flights, I'll pay for this, I'll
Speaker 4: pay for that, and then like when you get let's
Speaker 4: just say, when we go to a Grand Slam and
Speaker 4: you know you were going to make X amount, then
Speaker 4: we'll just you can reimburse me, you know. So like
Speaker 4: I had people where it's like would even foot the
Speaker 4: bill at the beginning to hopefully, you know, later down
Speaker 4: the road. So it's it's also just about like being
Speaker 4: able to have good people around you that understand because
Speaker 4: if not, like it's it's so hard, it's so hard, like, yeah,
Speaker 4: it's almost impossible.
Speaker 2: So at what point did you feel like you were
Speaker 2: really good that like, hey, I you know a lot
Speaker 2: of people start sports and but there becomes a moment
Speaker 2: when you realize, like I'm built a little different than
Speaker 2: everybody else.
Speaker 1: What moment was that for you or what time was
Speaker 1: that for you?
Speaker 4: Well, it's it's really interesting because while the things were happening,
Speaker 4: I didn't notice it. But now when I was removed
Speaker 4: and I like actually was able to kind of deconstruct things,
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh my gosh, Like it's literally been like
Speaker 4: me versus me literally and I'm thinking that I'm like
Speaker 4: fighting everything and everyone and like, but now that I
Speaker 4: was able to look, I think, like, there's nobody on
Speaker 4: my love. There was nobody doing what I was doing.
Speaker 4: Like not a single number one junior in thirty something
Speaker 4: years that didn't happen. Like you were winning this, this, this, this, this, this,
Speaker 4: nobody else was doing that. You want two Grand Slams
Speaker 4: out of four in a year, Nobody else did that,
Speaker 4: Like you want Orange Bowl, Easter Bowl, this, Like as
Speaker 4: a junior, this that, this, that. But I was always
Speaker 4: trying to like prove myself and be like is this
Speaker 4: good enough? Is this good enough? Is this good enough?
Speaker 4: So in the moment and at the time I didn't
Speaker 4: see I was just like, Okay, what's next, what's next?
Speaker 4: What's next? And it's so crazy how those experiences shaped
Speaker 4: like who I am now. Because when I won Wimbledon,
Speaker 4: I threw a trophy party, not because I wanted to
Speaker 4: party and because like I didn't have time to party,
Speaker 4: but I did it because I wanted to have my
Speaker 4: friends and my family with me to force me to
Speaker 4: acknowledge the accomplishment that I made. Taylor, you just won
Speaker 4: Wimbledon double singles I don't care, you just want you
Speaker 4: can look and you can open up this green case
Speaker 4: and there is a trophy which your name on it
Speaker 4: that says wimbleding, Like that is a big deal. And
Speaker 4: because of my experiences, I would have just been like, Okay,
Speaker 4: well I have to do this and this and this
Speaker 4: and this, and like okay, that was cool, that was fun,
Speaker 4: but what's next? And I forced myself to not do
Speaker 4: that because of like my experiences in the past, you know,
Speaker 4: So like the moment, I honestly didn't realize the things
Speaker 4: that I've accomplished until like I'm this age and even now,
Speaker 4: like I had to really I didn't really do it,
Speaker 4: so it's kind of on my list of things, but
Speaker 4: like really sit down and marinate in like the season
Speaker 4: I had, like you did that, like you did these things,
Speaker 4: you know, and like it's I realized the importance and
Speaker 4: the value of that for me now to be able
Speaker 4: to like fully acknowledge and embrace the things that but
Speaker 4: then it gives me motivation for like the next, the next,
Speaker 4: the next and next, you know, so instead of like
Speaker 4: just being like Okay, I got do this and this
Speaker 4: and this, like no, you accomplish this. This is how
Speaker 4: you did it. Okay, how we're gonna get better. So
Speaker 4: it's like it's a much more healthy process. But you know,
Speaker 4: I didn't realize that I was good. You know, I
Speaker 4: didn't realize that I was doing extraordinary things because it
Speaker 4: wasn't celebrated, it wasn't acknowledged, it wasn't you know, it
Speaker 4: wasn't really it didn't feel special. So because it didn't
Speaker 4: feel special, like I didn't think that I was doing
Speaker 4: anything special, and this was the environment that I was
Speaker 4: in at all times, you know. So yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4: And I just actually talked about this with my coach today.
Speaker 4: I was like, I'm the kind of person who I
Speaker 4: have to prove it and I have to see it
Speaker 4: before Like I don't see it beforehand, I have to
Speaker 4: do it. And that tells me that I know that
Speaker 4: it is you know what I mean. So like I'm
Speaker 4: there's one of the things that I have to work
Speaker 4: on because it's like a lot of the battles start here.
Speaker 4: You have to know before you get out there and
Speaker 4: start doing things. So it's one of the things that
Speaker 4: I'm still working on to this day. I'm being honest with.
Speaker 2: You, well, I think that's something that a lot of
Speaker 2: women can relate to, because, you know, I think we
Speaker 2: are living in a society in the world that often
Speaker 2: convincess convinces us that our worth is is more diminished,
Speaker 2: and so you sort of become in this mindset like,
Speaker 2: am I really good? You know, we have a little
Speaker 2: women tend to struggle, even the most accomplished women like yourself,
Speaker 2: with a lot of self doubt. I mean, this is
Speaker 2: amazing for me to hear you say that, given that
Speaker 2: you were number one in the world as a junior,
Speaker 2: something that hadn't been accomplished. I believe Lindsay Davenport was
Speaker 2: the last American before you did it. And this year,
Speaker 2: you know, you win Wimbledon and doubles. I mean, that's
Speaker 2: like there's points zero zeros are a one percent of
Speaker 2: people who actually get to do that, and you are,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of one of one of the fuse.
Speaker 2: But going back to your time as a singles player,
Speaker 2: not that that part of your career is over, but
Speaker 2: when you were in juniors, I have to say I
Speaker 2: was really flabbergasted because I was unaware you went through
Speaker 2: quite a battle with the USTA regarding some body shaming
Speaker 2: that they did.
Speaker 1: And I was not aware that they could.
Speaker 2: They had the authority to not fund you based off
Speaker 2: how you were training. For those who were not aware
Speaker 2: of the backstory, is that when you know, when you
Speaker 2: were a junior player, despite the fact you were dominating
Speaker 2: as a juniors player, they question your weight and they
Speaker 2: questioned your fitness and they were able to that impacted
Speaker 2: your funding and dealing with that at sixteen years old,
Speaker 2: when a lot of us are going through a lot
Speaker 2: of sort of different body issues, You've dealt with it
Speaker 2: and on a very public stage. When you reflect back
Speaker 2: on that time in your life, what is it that
Speaker 2: you're struck by in terms of how you handle dealing
Speaker 2: with such you know, frankly a level of public humiliation.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think the thing that I'm the most proud
Speaker 4: of is that I made the decision to control the
Speaker 4: narrative and I made the decision to not allow everyone
Speaker 4: else to tell my story. So I said to myself,
Speaker 4: I'm like, Okay, this sucks, Like this is terrible. I
Speaker 4: hate talking about this. It's embarrassing, Like I'm having to
Speaker 4: talk about it on a worldwide stage, Like this is
Speaker 4: really embarrassing, right, and it was a catalyst effect that
Speaker 4: I didn't even know was going to happen externally and internally. Externally,
Speaker 4: the catalyst effect was every single time that I stepped
Speaker 4: on the court, that was always a topic of conversation.
Speaker 4: So whether I was playing well, if I was playing well,
Speaker 4: like my movement, my breathing, everything was hyper analyzed because
Speaker 4: of how I looked. So if I lost a little weight,
Speaker 4: or if I was not bloated from my cycle, or
Speaker 4: if I seemed or appeared smaller or more fit than
Speaker 4: people would attribute me playing well to that and the
Speaker 4: end eternal battle that happened was I was always questioning,
Speaker 4: looking and trying to figure out what people were saying.
Speaker 4: I became aware because the thing is, it's like I've
Speaker 4: always been a bigger girl, so like as a kid,
Speaker 4: I wasn't aware of it, because it's just like I'm
Speaker 4: just playing right, and if I'm playing and I'm doing
Speaker 4: what I'm supposed to do and I'm winning, Like how
Speaker 4: I was taught and grown up, how I grew up
Speaker 4: was like, it doesn't matter. I'm kicking ass, So you
Speaker 4: can say whatever you want to say. The number speaks
Speaker 4: for itself, right, The trophy speak for yourself, so you
Speaker 4: can say whatever you want, right. So that was the mentality.
Speaker 4: But when I got older and started dealing with when
Speaker 4: that became something that became aware of, I was like,
Speaker 4: oh my god. So then I started trying to figure
Speaker 4: out what people were saying. You know, social media was new,
Speaker 4: so you know, then people having access to you worldwide
Speaker 4: on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram didn't exist back, but you know, Twitter, Facebook,
Speaker 4: all of these things, and I felt like I always
Speaker 4: had to defend myself, you know, And it was just like, no,
Speaker 4: it wasn't I didn't play a good match because I
Speaker 4: just played really well, or I executed my strategy or whatever.
Speaker 4: Or I broke my opponent down. No, I did it
Speaker 4: because I was more fit. Or I lost because I
Speaker 4: got tired. No, I didn't get tired. Maybe I was
Speaker 4: making too many errors I was doing. This was so
Speaker 4: it was always a tie. And so I was proud
Speaker 4: of the way that I didn't allow the media and
Speaker 4: everyone else to tell my story. I was like, no,
Speaker 4: this is what happened, but I'm here, and I basically
Speaker 4: consciously like redirected everyone to like, no, this is what
Speaker 4: I'm doing now, Oh, this is what's happening. No, that's cool,
Speaker 4: that's fine, But in the midst of it, it was
Speaker 4: a lot that I have had to ravel because it
Speaker 4: was like a lot of my identity. And this happens
Speaker 4: a lot in sports, especially when you play and you
Speaker 4: become you've been engulfed at such a young age, your
Speaker 4: identity becomes wrapped up in the sport, so it's very
Speaker 4: hard to differentiate, like you as a person versus you
Speaker 4: as an athlete, Like that doesn't come until later, later,
Speaker 4: where you know, hopefully later. For me, that came, that
Speaker 4: divergence came when I got pregnant because like I had
Speaker 4: to step away, Like I have never had any injuries
Speaker 4: that took me away from the sport for more than
Speaker 4: you know, a couple of weeks if that, you know.
Speaker 4: The injury that I had this year pre French Open
Speaker 4: was the first time I've ever like had to withdraw
Speaker 4: from a tournament due to an injury, so like in
Speaker 4: eleven almost twelve years on tour, So that can say something.
Speaker 4: So that divergence didn't happen of like until I got
Speaker 4: pregnant and I was away for almost twenty months, and
Speaker 4: I'm like, okay, who am I Because this is not
Speaker 4: this isn't this isn't important right now because I can't
Speaker 4: do it. I can't play tennis. I'm not out on
Speaker 4: the court. I'm not competing. I'm not playing, Like, so
Speaker 4: this doesn't matter, so like who are you? And so
Speaker 4: like I was proud of the way that I handled that,
Speaker 4: and even today, like, you know, it's really cool because
Speaker 4: a lot of people, you know, they say, oh, I
Speaker 4: admire your strength and all this stuff, and but it
Speaker 4: is it does take strength and it's hard, but you know,
Speaker 4: it's also growth. And I think that the cool thing
Speaker 4: is like, which is why a lot of people like
Speaker 4: rock with me or even my fans are like stay
Speaker 4: down because they know, like we've been following this person
Speaker 4: from this from the time she had braces and bows
Speaker 4: in her hair to like all the way through. So
Speaker 4: it's like it is a true appreciation for like, just
Speaker 4: the same way that I have an appreciation for where
Speaker 4: I am, I think other people have an appreciation for
Speaker 4: being able to see how much that I've grown and
Speaker 4: how I've been able to maneuver through these types of situations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was really remarkable to see it
Speaker 2: in real time because I don't know that a lot
Speaker 2: of sixteen year olds would have had the maturity, uh,
Speaker 2: and certainly not to give voice to it on top
Speaker 2: of that, because not only did you have to deal
Speaker 2: with that, but you also gave voice to it and
Speaker 2: voice to frankly, how a lot of women, and especially
Speaker 2: black women, how their bodies are analyzed. I know Serena
Speaker 2: Williams knows something about this because she went through some
Speaker 2: of the same things with people in the media, which really,
Speaker 2: you know, as a member of the media, is kind
Speaker 2: of embarrassing. I was like, it ain't like we out
Speaker 2: here all in shape and we got Yeah.
Speaker 4: It's like a lot of people that's talking, and it's
Speaker 4: like you guys couldn't even you couldn't even do what
Speaker 4: I'm doing exactly. And that was another thing that I
Speaker 4: started having to frame where I'm just like, okay, like
Speaker 4: you really have to stop caring about and being so
Speaker 4: aware of what these people say. Because I literally remember
Speaker 4: I was down in I was down in Florida and
Speaker 4: I was doing my laundry and I saw something on
Speaker 4: Twitter because I had tweeted something. I was like, I'm
Speaker 4: so excited to go home. I hadn't been home in
Speaker 4: ten months. So I was so excited to see my dad,
Speaker 4: my sister, everyone, and someone was like, yeah, you're excited
Speaker 4: to go back to your cage. You like fat monkey,
Speaker 4: like black monkey, and just like tweet tweet tweet tweet,
Speaker 4: like so one after the other after the other. After
Speaker 4: I was like, so, Dad, I remember like in that moment,
Speaker 4: I'm just like wow, I'm literally just talking about how
Speaker 4: I'm excited to go see my family. And this is
Speaker 4: the response, Taylor, you can't make everybody happy, like you can't,
Speaker 4: Like it's impossible. It's impossible for you to think that
Speaker 4: you can do things to please everyone. So and I
Speaker 4: remember thinking, I'm like in this moment, I'm like fuck
Speaker 4: these people. It's like literally that's what I said. I
Speaker 4: was with it.
Speaker 1: I'd be like, man, yeah.
Speaker 4: You know, I was like I said it, I'm like,
Speaker 4: fuck these people. And I looked at that and I
Speaker 4: deleted tweets. I'm like, you know what, I'm done with this.
Speaker 4: And I remember like a change where I'm just like yeah,
Speaker 4: like and I actually did have to go through a
Speaker 4: point where it was like I separated myself from social media,
Speaker 4: but now I'm like, bro, like y'all can't even and
Speaker 4: sometimes I got time. I really do. Sometimes I have
Speaker 4: time because I'm just like, okay, y'all a little bit
Speaker 4: like doing too much. But it's like I really have
Speaker 4: gotten to the ploor where I'm just like I just
Speaker 4: don't care, Like I know the people that's in my circle,
Speaker 4: the people that love and care about me, and they
Speaker 4: know who I am. What you say doesn't matter, like
Speaker 4: and it's even worse now because it's like you got
Speaker 4: these Internet trolls that literally sit and do this all
Speaker 4: day long and like search for stuff like this is
Speaker 4: your job, Like you have no life. So I'm out
Speaker 4: here actually trying to do something and be someone and
Speaker 4: putting myself out there consistently constantly, like I'm not hiding
Speaker 4: in the shadows. It could have been easy for me
Speaker 4: to go no, no, no, no, I'm not doing like
Speaker 4: I'm front facing. So it's like that takes courage, that
Speaker 4: takes bravery. And there was no body positivity movement, so
Speaker 4: like how it is now where there's body positivity inclusion,
Speaker 4: like inclusion in commercials, clothing brands, all of these different
Speaker 4: type of stuff. I don't identify as a plus sized woman.
Speaker 4: I'm just bigger than what everyone else is, and like
Speaker 4: I have a different body shape. I have a different
Speaker 4: body type. I was looking at my doubles partner's legs
Speaker 4: and my legs and I'm like, I as my coach,
Speaker 4: I said, oh, I likeingly that big. Well, her legs
Speaker 4: is super small. I was like, I know, it's not that.
Speaker 4: Like it was like this and like this. I was like,
Speaker 4: oh my god. It was a picture room standing side
Speaker 4: by side. I was like, okay, this was like wimbled
Speaker 4: in this. Yall was like, okay, I know that it's
Speaker 4: not like that. So it was no, it was no
Speaker 4: body positivity movement during that time where it was just
Speaker 4: like this was some first of all, something I was
Speaker 4: talked about, something that was accepted, where it was just
Speaker 4: like there was a mental acceptance of like especially in sport,
Speaker 4: of like different shapes and sizes that can still be effective,
Speaker 4: you know, not saying that like I can't be better,
Speaker 4: get better, be more in shape, get more fit, get
Speaker 4: more ripped up. Of course I can, yes, But so
Speaker 4: I'm not naive to the fact of like I know
Speaker 4: the areas in which I need to progress, but that
Speaker 4: doesn't make me any less or worse or whatever the
Speaker 4: case may be. So it was just a lot of
Speaker 4: things where it's just like during and in the times,
Speaker 4: like we're talking ten years ago, like we're in the time.
Speaker 4: These things didn't no, not even twelve years ago, like anger, yeah,
Speaker 4: twelve thirteen years ago, Like these topics didn't exist. So
Speaker 4: it was something where I felt like I was kind
Speaker 4: of like having to forge like through on my own
Speaker 4: and you know, doing it at sixteen, like as a teenager,
Speaker 4: all types of things to change, and like it was
Speaker 4: just it was crazy time. It's crazy work. But honestly
Speaker 4: I appreciate it because it honestly it's made me like
Speaker 4: who I am. And it also again just to kind
Speaker 4: of circle back, taught me how to deal with tough
Speaker 4: shit like from a public front facing standpoint. So I
Speaker 4: was like, OK, if I can deal with that or
Speaker 4: people call me fat this that, and the third like
Speaker 4: I can deal with whatever else. Like the other stuff
Speaker 4: is is like this.
Speaker 2: Well, I have a lot more I want to get
Speaker 2: to with you, because I know we only have a
Speaker 2: short amount of talent here.
Speaker 1: Got to ask you of course with your time with
Speaker 1: Cardi B.
Speaker 2: So that is coming up after the break and we'll
Speaker 2: have more with Taylor Townsend. I want to quickly go
Speaker 2: back to something that you said in your answer when
Speaker 2: I was asking about the body shaming that you went to.
Speaker 1: You know, it's so funny.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you pointed out the fact that
Speaker 2: it wasn't that you were ever big. It's just that
Speaker 2: maybe compared to other tennis player body just looks different.
Speaker 1: Because I swear to.
Speaker 2: God, when I go back and watch your highlights and
Speaker 2: remembering you at that time, I'm like, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: what like they consider her to be out of shape
Speaker 2: and girls? So when you go back, because I mean
Speaker 2: I do that too, just with normal pictures from like
Speaker 2: high school or college when I thought I was like.
Speaker 1: Big, and I'm like, what was I thinking?
Speaker 4: Man?
Speaker 2: When you look back at those images and even maybe
Speaker 2: some of your highlights or whatever, are you thinking like
Speaker 2: what what were they on?
Speaker 4: Like, girl, I haven't looked at that stuff for so long. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't even go back and look because I just know.
Speaker 4: I'm like, you are a kid. You are a child.
Speaker 4: Like you are. I know as a grown woman, how
Speaker 4: I feel and what happens to my body when my
Speaker 4: cycle comes. So this is like times ten as a
Speaker 4: child when you're going through puberty, like I'm had braces,
Speaker 4: face changing, Like I'm like, you're a child, Likes I
Speaker 4: don't even go back and look at that stuff. Like
Speaker 4: I've seen old pictures and there are times when I'm
Speaker 4: like why people using these pictures, Like I don't even
Speaker 4: look like that. But it's like I don't even go back.
Speaker 4: But if I do it, or if I see it
Speaker 4: and it comes up, I'm just like no. Like whatever
Speaker 4: they was talking about, should I pay money to get
Speaker 4: back I.
Speaker 1: Look at an old picture. I said the same thing.
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know what if I go back to
Speaker 2: that junior year in college, Man, I do that in a.
Speaker 4: Minute here complaining. I'm just like, I gotta work ten
Speaker 4: times harder now because it's a little slower burn. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, and that's a great transition because I wanted to
Speaker 2: ask you, I mean your your your son is now
Speaker 2: three years old.
Speaker 1: You know you you play.
Speaker 2: Pregnant and you said up until the day before you
Speaker 2: get to go to the hospital. So you know, given
Speaker 2: all things that you had gone through in your career,
Speaker 2: and we see that female athletes when it comes to
Speaker 2: you know, pregnancy and post pregnancy. You know, they admitted
Speaker 2: there was just a lot of things they had to
Speaker 2: get over that they didn't anticipate. The postpartum looks different
Speaker 2: for you, so overall, like for your experience, particularly in
Speaker 2: post pregnancy, how did you handle putting the pressure on
Speaker 2: yourself to you know, because we live in snapback culture,
Speaker 2: how did you handle that aspect of it in terms
Speaker 2: of dealing with your body and the changes it was
Speaker 2: going through.
Speaker 4: You know what's crazy, I suffer more from the snapback
Speaker 4: thing now than I did back then because I look
Speaker 4: at people, like six months back on court Plan, I
Speaker 4: was like, how wow, I was still expanding in six months,
Speaker 4: Like I was like what like? But also this whole
Speaker 4: situation like so I actually look at that because I'm
Speaker 4: just like I. But then it's another thing where I'm like,
Speaker 4: they got different bodies, they got different you know, genetics
Speaker 4: everything like that. I don't know the situation with how
Speaker 4: they breastfed, right. I breastfed my son for a year,
Speaker 4: so that automatically is different boobs out to here. You know,
Speaker 4: like in six months, I was a stay at home
Speaker 4: I'm for seven months straight, Like, I did not pick
Speaker 4: up a racket, go to the gym or nothing until
Speaker 4: my son. I didn't start going to the gym until
Speaker 4: my son was seven months because like, but I made
Speaker 4: that decision for myself because I was like, I want
Speaker 4: to know what it's like to be a mom. I
Speaker 4: don't want to put the pressure on myself to have
Speaker 4: to go do anything, Like I want to have a
Speaker 4: solid foundation with my son, understand him, so that because
Speaker 4: I understand my mom, like I can't do this alone,
Speaker 4: Like I can't think that I can take him to
Speaker 4: practice and practice for two or three hours with no interruptions.
Speaker 4: It's not possible. So I know I need help. So
Speaker 4: I'm going to have to have someone that comes in,
Speaker 4: and I want to be able to explain to this
Speaker 4: person this is the tendencies, this is how he acts,
Speaker 4: this is what to look for, da da da da,
Speaker 4: And if there's something outside of that that they tell me,
Speaker 4: then I know that there's something outside of that, you know.
Speaker 4: So I wanted to that was more important to me
Speaker 4: than anything in the world. So and it worked out
Speaker 4: well for me, Like that's okay, But yeah, the snapback
Speaker 4: culture is crazy, like it's it's so like to me,
Speaker 4: it's unrealistic. But what gives me the motivation and the
Speaker 4: strength is that the work that I had to put
Speaker 4: into just like just step back out on this sport.
Speaker 4: Like I said, I made a proclamation to myself that
Speaker 4: I said, I will not return back to play until
Speaker 4: unless I'm better than I was when I was leaving.
Speaker 4: If I'm not better, I'm not coming back until I'm better.
Speaker 4: So I made that proclamation to myself. I didn't know
Speaker 4: how long I was going to take. I didn't know
Speaker 4: how like what that looked like. I said that and
Speaker 4: it sounded great, but I didn't know what that meant
Speaker 4: until I was in it. I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: oh wow, there's a lot of work. But so that's
Speaker 4: honestly what gives me the strength and like to know,
Speaker 4: like I had to lose almost one hundred pounds, like
Speaker 4: a lot of people don't know that. Like I was huge,
Speaker 4: and you know, breastfeeding, you know, having to I was.
Speaker 4: I was waking up at four in the morning to
Speaker 4: pump before fitness, after working out, pump again, pump before practice.
Speaker 4: You know, like doing all of these things like I
Speaker 4: had to. It was work. It was hard work, and
Speaker 4: so it gives me so much strength and motivation because
Speaker 4: I'm like, I know what I did, So it's like
Speaker 4: there's where it's like it's easy for people on the
Speaker 4: outside to kind of like diminish things that you've done
Speaker 4: based on their opinions and things. But I'm like, with
Speaker 4: this particular situation, I know what I went through, I
Speaker 4: know what I did, I know the work that I
Speaker 4: put in. I know that had a whole day with
Speaker 4: a baby and I had to find time while he's
Speaker 4: napping or when he's down in this to get my
Speaker 4: little workouts in and do what I had to do
Speaker 4: and starve myself and you know all of the things.
Speaker 4: Like so there's nothing because there was nobody around. There
Speaker 4: was no glitz, there was no glamour, there was no
Speaker 4: observation outside of myself and the people close to me.
Speaker 4: So I'm like, I know what I did to be here,
Speaker 4: So like that fuels me because I know, like, first
Speaker 4: of all, it's it's I'm grateful to be on the
Speaker 4: tennis court. I'm grateful to be here because like even
Speaker 4: for me, I had a fantastic pregnancy emergency sea section
Speaker 4: out of nowhere. Didn't expect that, didn't whatever, but it
Speaker 4: had to happen.
Speaker 2: So it's like, how did that impact your recovery? Well, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think this assumption that if you get a C
Speaker 2: section is all good. Oh no, they heard from many
Speaker 2: about this real process, Like.
Speaker 1: What was what was that?
Speaker 4: It was so hard because I've never had surgery before,
Speaker 4: so like I couldn't get up on my own, I
Speaker 4: couldn't sit down by myself. I couldn't sit on the toilet,
Speaker 4: I couldn't want my ass so I'm like I couldn't
Speaker 4: shower on my own, Like for two weeks, I didn't
Speaker 4: go up or down my steps, so my sister had
Speaker 4: to bring everything to me up. Like it was really
Speaker 4: really hard psychologically as well, because I'm a very self
Speaker 4: I'm an independent person, you know, so for me psychologically,
Speaker 4: like I can't tell how many times I broke down
Speaker 4: because it's just like I don't like asking for help,
Speaker 4: So even psychologically, how many times I had to be
Speaker 4: like can you help me? Can you help me? Can
Speaker 4: you help me? Then I started feeling guilty for how
Speaker 4: many times I had why do you go to the bathroom? Now?
Speaker 4: I need to be again? You know, It's just like
Speaker 4: it was hard, like psychologically for somebody who is independent,
Speaker 4: who's been doing things on their own since they're fourteen
Speaker 4: years old, like to have to ask to do everything.
Speaker 4: It is very difficult. And even with that, then it
Speaker 4: was just like, okay, I remember going outside. Finally cool,
Speaker 4: three weeks, finally can go outside. I wasn't scared to
Speaker 4: go up or down the steps because they were like,
Speaker 4: be careful with that because you can rip the stitches,
Speaker 4: and then that's a whole other problem. No, thank you.
Speaker 4: So finally go outside, all right, take the baby on
Speaker 4: the walk. Okay. I made it to the stop side
Speaker 4: at the end of the block that's three houses, one,
Speaker 4: two three. I was like, shit, I'm tired. And it
Speaker 4: was like I turned around, turned tollaid. Damn, I gotta
Speaker 4: go back. I gotta make it back. You went down,
Speaker 4: you gotta get back. Oh okay, let me take a
Speaker 4: great hold on.
Speaker 2: Like, even with all that you've gone through though and
Speaker 2: recovery and all of that, how would you say, though,
Speaker 2: that motherhood has made you a better tennis player.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's it's completely changed me. It's first of all,
Speaker 4: I was giving me a different level of motor because
Speaker 4: I have something outside of myself. You know. It's just
Speaker 4: like before it was just like, yeah, this is my goal,
Speaker 4: Like this is what I want. I want right but
Speaker 4: now you have someone else depending on you, and that's
Speaker 4: a completely different feeling. That's completely different motivation. Also, a
Speaker 4: big thing that motherhood has changed is the fact that
Speaker 4: losses or wins aren't so you know more so losses
Speaker 4: like losses aren't so bad because I know it's not
Speaker 4: the end of the world. Before it was like I
Speaker 4: was sold for two days, three days, like just feeling bad,
Speaker 4: you know whatever. But now it's like I can call
Speaker 4: and be like, hey, mommy, you're doing great. You did
Speaker 4: so good, you look so nice. And Aj is like
Speaker 4: he's so like in touch with his feelings and emotions,
Speaker 4: so he'll just like be like, mommy, I love you.
Speaker 4: So it's like, even with that, it gives me the
Speaker 4: ability to kind of like not sit in things so long.
Speaker 4: You can feel it, but it's just like, okay, I
Speaker 4: can move. It helped me to move on faster, and
Speaker 4: it's super special because just like I know that like
Speaker 4: even when I'm done. That was another scary thing. I
Speaker 4: didn't know what I was going to do when I
Speaker 4: was done playing tennis, because again, identity and sense of
Speaker 4: self is so wrapped up and you're on court and
Speaker 4: who you are in this world right, So I didn't know.
Speaker 4: But then now I'm just like, it has given me
Speaker 4: the motivation to be like, Okay, there's so many things
Speaker 4: that I want to do, and you know, even looking
Speaker 4: forward to just being home and spending time with my child,
Speaker 4: like that's enough for me, you know. So it's definitely
Speaker 4: changed my perspective in terms of like what's important, you know,
Speaker 4: And I realized I'm not saying that tennis is less important,
Speaker 4: but it's just.
Speaker 2: Not everybody whole identity is wrapped up into it, maybe
Speaker 2: like it was before. One kind of question before we
Speaker 2: get to the messy question of the podcast, what Yes,
Speaker 2: Gotta ask you a messy question? So, how would you
Speaker 2: characterize or rate the support because this is also something
Speaker 2: that a lot of fans and people who are just
Speaker 2: casual observers don't know about. There's quite a few women
Speaker 2: who are mothers on the tour, So where is the
Speaker 2: tour in terms of supporting mothers on the tour?
Speaker 1: Like what how would you characterize that support?
Speaker 4: I think it's so I would characterize it as a
Speaker 4: work in progress, like like any like all sports. Really,
Speaker 4: until you had those people who did it, it was
Speaker 4: one of the things where it's like women had to choose.
Speaker 4: If I'm want a family, then I have to stop,
Speaker 4: I have to retire. Like coming back wasn't really think.
Speaker 4: You know, Kim Kleiser's was the first one to have
Speaker 4: kids come back win a slam, and it was I
Speaker 4: remember that, and I remember watching and when she brought
Speaker 4: her daughter on this on the court like on ash
Speaker 4: during her trophy ceremony, I'm like, well, that's so cool,
Speaker 4: like imagine I couldn't imagine back think so I was
Speaker 4: so young. And also I didn't, to be honest, I
Speaker 4: didn't want kids. So it's kind of like a crazy
Speaker 4: thing where like so maternal. I did not want kids.
Speaker 4: I was like, when I'm done playing, I wouldn't be
Speaker 4: able to have my time to do what I want,
Speaker 4: like you know, we travel, we do all this stuff,
Speaker 4: Like I just want to freedom, right. So I think
Speaker 4: that it's a work in progress. Now that it's happening
Speaker 4: more and more, I think that it's something where they
Speaker 4: can't deny it. And you know, so they have you know,
Speaker 4: daycares or they call them crushes at the tennis sites
Speaker 4: where you can you know, basically bring your kid and
Speaker 4: leave them for the day and you know, they have
Speaker 4: helped to be able to you maybe give room preferences
Speaker 4: or bigger room options if you're going to have your
Speaker 4: child with you. So it's like let's just say you
Speaker 4: have to pay way way way more for a suite
Speaker 4: or for you know whatever, like maybe there's more options
Speaker 4: to have those available if you're bringing your child with you.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm an executive member of the PTOPA, and
Speaker 4: that's a big, you know, kind of focus for them
Speaker 4: is being able to help represent you know, all athletes
Speaker 4: and the athletes being moms as well. So you know,
Speaker 4: there's not a great system for insurance. You know, there's
Speaker 4: not a great system for making sure that you're taken
Speaker 4: care of and if it's fine for the player, but
Speaker 4: if you want to add someone as expensive as hell,
Speaker 4: you know. So it's like if you're traveling internationally with
Speaker 4: a child, you want to make sure that they're covered
Speaker 4: if anything were to go wrong. So there's definitely parts
Speaker 4: that are being addressed, but there are a lot of
Speaker 4: other things that I feel like can be better. And
Speaker 4: you know, whether it be financial support, whether it be
Speaker 4: whatever the case may be, where it's like you know
Speaker 4: their specific situation because being a being getting pregnant is
Speaker 4: like a unique scenario and situation to only women and
Speaker 4: to like this small subset of people. Right, So it's
Speaker 4: not something that you can fake or you know, you
Speaker 4: can fake an injury or say I'm hurt to get
Speaker 4: time off, right, This is not something like that. So
Speaker 4: you know, I feel like there can be other things
Speaker 4: or other initiatives put in place to kind of help
Speaker 4: bring make it easier, you know, for me, Like personally,
Speaker 4: I travel a lot on my own because I don't
Speaker 4: feel like it's easy or there's a ease about traveling
Speaker 4: with a child, you know. And again, and like I said,
Speaker 4: I'm very fortunate because I have an amazing I have help,
Speaker 4: and you know it's not free, but it's fantastic. But
Speaker 4: you know, even with that, I got a grant while
Speaker 4: I was pregnant or like right after I got pregnant
Speaker 4: with or right after I had AJ from the Women's
Speaker 4: Sports Foundation for twenty thousand and it was through an
Speaker 4: initiative with Alison Felix and the Women's Sports Foundation, And
Speaker 4: you know, I put that towards my nanny, and I
Speaker 4: was just like this was so helpful because it's like,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm not playing, I'm not making any money.
Speaker 4: I don't have sponsors, so it's just like I didn't
Speaker 4: have any residual income. So to be able to receive
Speaker 4: something like that was like huge for me because that
Speaker 4: was able to take a lot off of my plate
Speaker 4: for at least a little bit of top for some months. Right.
Speaker 4: So even having initiatives putting him in like that through
Speaker 4: our organizations or through sponsorships of the organizations like that
Speaker 4: be really helpful because so many things fall on us
Speaker 4: as athletes and as players, Like there's very few things
Speaker 4: that are taken care of by the tournaments, by the tours,
Speaker 4: So to be able to kind of like offset some
Speaker 4: of those costs that you that you have when you're
Speaker 4: away from the game for however long, then that could
Speaker 4: be really helpful. And also it can help to not
Speaker 4: feel like I have to rush to get back.
Speaker 1: On tour, you know.
Speaker 4: So it can give you a little bit more peace
Speaker 4: of mind of knowing that I can kind of like
Speaker 4: take my time and slow step if that's what the
Speaker 4: player or the athlete wants, you know.
Speaker 2: So now to the messy question of the podcast. This
Speaker 2: is where all the controversy happens.
Speaker 4: I love it right.
Speaker 1: We all love a little mess.
Speaker 2: So you I think it was last year you you
Speaker 2: taught Carti B a little bit about tennis or how
Speaker 2: to play at a little bit of tennis. On her
Speaker 2: show Carti Tries where she tries different things. But I
Speaker 2: think it is a brilliant idea. And how would you
Speaker 2: rate Cardi B's athleticism.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna say I tried.
Speaker 2: Because I saw some footage and I was like, hmmm, yeah,
Speaker 2: Tallada Rapper.
Speaker 1: Don't know if athleticism and sports is her thing?
Speaker 4: No, definitely not. She's not an athlete. It was really interesting.
Speaker 4: First I didn't know she was left handed, so that
Speaker 4: was cool. Another thing is like I so when she
Speaker 4: was about to fall out and die, I was like,
Speaker 4: She's like, I need to sit down. So she went
Speaker 4: on the bench. Is like when you guys saw her
Speaker 4: like lay down and she was like who Like she
Speaker 4: literally was laying down and we took like a fifteen
Speaker 4: minute break. But I found out that she had was
Speaker 4: in the studio like all night, so she had came
Speaker 4: from the studio, didn't sleep, came from the studio to
Speaker 4: the set to shoot, so she was like exhausted. So
Speaker 4: I was just like, okay, Like I get it because
Speaker 4: I had the whole list. I was like, we about
Speaker 4: to do running drills, we about to do lunges and
Speaker 4: all this type of stuff, right, let's like just throw
Speaker 4: it all in. So yeah, I definitely saw. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 4: like sports is not her thing, Normani, she's an athlete.
Speaker 4: And then when I talked to her, I'm like, what
Speaker 4: did you do? She's like, yeah, did gymnastis and I
Speaker 4: played this and I was like, Okay, that makes sense
Speaker 4: because the things that I was telling her, like her
Speaker 4: body awareness and her hand eye corners, like she was
Speaker 4: able to get it fast. And one of the things
Speaker 4: I was the most impressive was with the serve because
Speaker 4: that's not easy, like to be able to time like
Speaker 4: the ball going up, coming down and then when you
Speaker 4: hit and like she got it quick. So I was
Speaker 4: just like, okay, like she's an athlete, CARTI No, We're
Speaker 4: gonna stick to music and dancing and making sure that
Speaker 4: she keep telling us her hair routine because she got
Speaker 4: fabulous inches. We need that.
Speaker 2: That's a little surprising because I've seen I've never seen
Speaker 2: her in person, been seeing her perform on stage like
Speaker 2: that requires some athletics.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I asked her that because so I'm gonna tell you,
Speaker 4: I could be anger. Sometimes I would just ask things
Speaker 4: that come to mind because I was like, something's not
Speaker 4: making sense to me. I say, you sing and dance
Speaker 4: and do all of this stuff for hours? How can
Speaker 4: you not? How do not work out? Well, it's just
Speaker 4: different how how how sway? So I was like, I
Speaker 4: didn't quite understand that, but I guess it is just
Speaker 4: a different type of thing, and you know, it's it
Speaker 4: kind of put in perspective like, okay, like just the
Speaker 4: same way. Is this something I've been doing for years?
Speaker 4: Like you get you can train yourself to be better
Speaker 4: at certain things, right, so like breathing or knowing how
Speaker 4: to do certain things like when you're performing. But I'm
Speaker 4: like to be able to run or like do side
Speaker 4: to side or coordinate watching something coming hitting, like it's
Speaker 4: just you know, it's it's different. I was just like,
Speaker 4: how do you how are you so tired?
Speaker 2: And heels and heels sometimes and like its elaborate office.
Speaker 2: So it's really it was really very eye opening about
Speaker 2: sometimes you have different skill sets in different areas well. Taylor,
Speaker 2: I want to thank you so much for spending this
Speaker 2: time with me. It's great to catch up with you
Speaker 2: and to hear about mommyhood. And obviously this was twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four was a great year for you. I'm sure
Speaker 2: there's way more of that to come, more success, So
Speaker 2: continue to keep doing what you're doing and being a
Speaker 2: voice like you know, the way that you have advocated
Speaker 2: for yourself and by extension, advocated for others is really
Speaker 2: quite admirable.
Speaker 1: So I just want to thank you for spending this time.
Speaker 4: Thank you, and I have fun. It's good to see
Speaker 4: you again after all these years. And yeah, I hope
Speaker 4: to run into you in person sometime.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a hole grown lady. Now you're o G
Speaker 1: on the tennis score.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm really that old time you are?
Speaker 2: You really are so many I had a conversation with
Speaker 2: Sloan Steve was about that same thing.
Speaker 1: She like, they looking at me like, oh you the
Speaker 1: o G.
Speaker 4: You the icon tell us what to do. She's like,
Speaker 4: but I'm just thirty, like, hey, hey Auntie, hold on.
Speaker 4: You're like hold on now, great Auntie. I was.
Speaker 1: Wet to the same age.
Speaker 2: Wait my mind, one more segment to go, and you
Speaker 2: guys know what that means I got questions to answer
Speaker 2: up next, your viewer slash listener questions, and I have
Speaker 2: plenty of answers coming up next. On the final segment
Speaker 2: of Spota, diis.
Speaker 4: All right, people.
Speaker 2: Time to close out this week's episode with an audience
Speaker 2: question from Kyra Stewart six sixty six not that that
Speaker 2: isn't spooky, who asked this question via Instagram. Kira asked,
Speaker 2: why haven't you addressed Nelly and Snoop's performers at the
Speaker 2: Crypto pre inauguration so by now, I'm sure you all
Speaker 2: know that Snoop and Nelly both performed for Trump's pre
Speaker 2: inauguration festivities last week, and people, as in our people
Speaker 2: were understandably upset and disappointed, and I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people were just hurt. Now, I live in Los
Speaker 2: Angeles and I can personally attest that Snoop does a
Speaker 2: lot of work in our community. This isn't a question
Speaker 2: about whether or not Snoop loves black people or if
Speaker 2: he's ashamed of being black. He does love black people
Speaker 2: and he is not ashamed of being black. This is
Speaker 2: a question of whether Snoop and Nelly understood that in
Speaker 2: this moment when the community they are both so connected
Speaker 2: to is trying to process what this presidency means and
Speaker 2: understanding that our community, our elders, our young people, our
Speaker 2: working class people will be disproportionately impacted by a president
Speaker 2: who is moving the way this one is moving. We
Speaker 2: need people in their positions to hold the line. Hey, Nellie, listen.
Speaker 2: I admire and respect the military as well, but showing
Speaker 2: your love of country doesn't mean blind loyalty. And if
Speaker 2: you feel that strongly about the military, you can always
Speaker 2: go perform at any military base you Performing there both
Speaker 2: of you is almost a sanction in a high five
Speaker 2: to this president. And no disrespect to Sojio boy, which
Speaker 2: means I'm about to disrespect soldier boy, but I expect
Speaker 2: him to be the rapper and take a check from Trump.
Speaker 2: That wasn't my expectation of smooth and melo. Thank you,
Speaker 2: Kyra for your question. As for the rest of you,
Speaker 2: if you would like to ask me a question, I'm
Speaker 2: at Jamail Hill across all social media platforms Twitter, Instagram,
Speaker 2: Bluesty and threads, please use the hashtags politics. You also
Speaker 2: have the option of emailing me at Politics twenty twenty
Speaker 2: four at gmail dot com. You can also send me
Speaker 2: a video of your question, but please make sure it's
Speaker 2: thirty seconds or less. Don't forget to follow and subscribe
Speaker 2: to Politics on iHeart and follow spolitics pod on Instagram
Speaker 2: and TikTok.
Speaker 1: It's still exist, doesn't it anyways?
Speaker 2: Politics is spelled s po l I Tics. A new
Speaker 2: episode of Politics drops every Thursday on iHeart Podcasts or
Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts. This is politics where sports
Speaker 2: and politics don't just mix, they Matterlitics is a production
Speaker 2: of iHeart podcast and The Unbothered Network. I'm your host
Speaker 2: Jamel Hill. Executive producer is Taylor Chakoigne. Lucas Hyman is
Speaker 2: head of Audio and executive producer. Megan Armstrong is associate producer.
Speaker 2: Original music First Politics provided by Kyle Visk from wiz
Speaker 2: FX