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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I felt compelled to

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Speaker 1: sit down in the chair today with you, guys. I

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Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I'm I have to talk about these

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Speaker 1: latest developments with the so called Gilgo Beach murders. This

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Speaker 1: is in the wake of this recent charging document. Let

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Speaker 1: us come up, let's have a brief moment here, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to rattle off some names to you. Rex

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Speaker 1: Huerman has been charged with the first screen murder of

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Speaker 1: Melissa Bartholemy, the first murder of Megan Waterman, the first

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Speaker 1: degree murder of Emperor Costello, and the second agree murder

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Speaker 1: of Maureen Brainerd Barnes. Unfortunately, the list has grown, so

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Speaker 1: as of this recording we must add the second degree

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Speaker 1: murder of Jessica Taylor and the second degree murder of

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Speaker 1: Sandra Castilla. We always have to remember the victims. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags, Dave. This

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Speaker 1: is a very sad day. It is a day where

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Speaker 1: this ghoulish list has grown by two at this point

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Speaker 1: in time. I don't think I can't speak for you,

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Speaker 1: my friend, but I mean I don't. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what to expect. I had a lot of people knew,

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Speaker 1: with media organizations reaching out to let me know that

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Speaker 1: this was happening. This was days and days back. And

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Speaker 1: of course I've got a lot of friends that spend

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Speaker 1: in the podcasting world that spend a tremendous amount of

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Speaker 1: time on the Gilgo cases.

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Speaker 2: Well, good grief, Joe, this has been covered for years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it had done it.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've done it here. You and I have

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Speaker 2: both been on with other shows covering this case. There

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Speaker 2: have been documentaries over the years. There have been so

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Speaker 2: many different angles on this that when Rex Huerman was arrested,

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Speaker 2: he wasn't somebody that was in my line of fire

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Speaker 2: in terms of what we had looked at previously. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we've this case has been looked at from every angle,

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Speaker 2: including police involvement in the murders. And I think back

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Speaker 2: to the different programs where different people said different theories,

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Speaker 2: and they would a lot of times people will get

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Speaker 2: so invested in a theory that they present it as

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Speaker 2: a fact, and you have to remind yourself they're no

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Speaker 2: different than you and me. They're not in the investigation.

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Speaker 2: They're merely looking out on the outside end and they

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Speaker 2: think X, Y Z. But we already had the GUILDG four.

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Speaker 2: Those were the first ones, and in reality they were

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Speaker 2: labeled the guil Go for even though there were only

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Speaker 2: three that he'd been charged with. The fourth one came later,

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Speaker 2: but there was that presumption that he was that guy.

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Speaker 2: But you and I both pointed out there are more

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Speaker 2: than just four bodies here. We're dealing with maybe more

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Speaker 2: than one serial killer, for crying out loud, and one

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Speaker 2: of the things that came up was Manerville. It's a

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Speaker 2: bit of a drive away from Gilgo, and yet there

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Speaker 2: was a connection there because torso of a victim was

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Speaker 2: found at Manorville, O their body parts found at Guilgo.

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Speaker 2: And immediately it was, oh, my goodness, Joe, are we

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Speaker 2: dealing with more than one person working together to kill

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Speaker 2: these people? I mean, what are we really dealing with?

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Speaker 2: And now looking at this new information from investigators, it

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Speaker 2: actually helps tie a few things together because I really

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Speaker 2: wondered how, you know, some things were fitting in And

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Speaker 2: as we look at this today, adding to the list

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Speaker 2: of the original Gilgo for the two people that have

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Speaker 2: been added Jessica Taylor and Sandra Cristia. And Jessica Taylor

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Speaker 2: was that person that ties Rex Huerman to Manorville.

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Speaker 1: Manorville, Yes, and gilgo.

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Speaker 2: So now we have that connection and it's not two

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Speaker 2: separate people. This person rack sureman, boy, I know he's

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Speaker 2: a human being.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know where you're going, where you going,

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Speaker 1: what he has done, I know. It's it's it's hard

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Speaker 1: to take the measure of it.

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Speaker 2: You've seen so many things over the years, Joe, and

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Speaker 2: I'm having to think that if you were to walk

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Speaker 2: in this dude's, this person's basement and realize this is

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Speaker 2: a torture slash death chamber, it would still give you

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Speaker 2: a he be GBI's wouldn't it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I would. I mean if if I had

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Speaker 1: the knowledge of what had gone on. It's weird when

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Speaker 1: you're an investigator, you try to I think there's part

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Speaker 1: of you tries to galvanize your mind against you know,

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Speaker 1: this your humanity. If you all know that sounds very

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Speaker 1: you know, but that's one of the things you have

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Speaker 1: to do to function that environment. And we've got police

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Speaker 1: officers and investigators that have made multiple trips out there,

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Speaker 1: and isn't that a fascinating thing to consider? Knowing what

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Speaker 1: they know? Because as you well stated, just a few

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Speaker 1: moments ago. There is nobody and I mean nobody that's

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Speaker 1: outside of this investigated bubble that knows everything. And we

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Speaker 1: should not know everything, because right now we are in

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Speaker 1: the midst of a game of chess, if you will,

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Speaker 1: and we're spectators, all right, and that really needs to

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Speaker 1: seep down into everybody's brain. Here we are merely spectators

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Speaker 1: of what's kind of transpiring before us. You've got prosecutors

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Speaker 1: from the county and then you have Huerman's defense team.

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Speaker 1: Now in light of what the state released yesterday with

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Speaker 1: this document, and Dave a gout to tell you, brother,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember a document like this in recent memory

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Speaker 1: that details what's a graphic nature of kind of what

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Speaker 1: was going on behind the eyes allegedly with this person,

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Speaker 1: the accused. It is a matter of trying to understand

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Speaker 1: this analytically without getting caught up in the emotion of

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Speaker 1: it if you're an investigator prosecutor moving forward point by point,

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Speaker 1: and there are a lot of points here, because the

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Speaker 1: data alone, just from a forensic standpoint day is so dense.

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Speaker 1: All of these various considerations, everything from electronic forensics to

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Speaker 1: certainly all of the biological elements of evidence being collected,

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Speaker 1: we've got hair, I don't know that we have blood.

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Speaker 1: And then we have all of the medical legal considerations

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Speaker 1: as well with these bodies who, let's face it, they've

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Speaker 1: been severely abused, allegedly abused before death and the animal state,

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Speaker 1: but my gosh, certainly abused and desecrated in a post

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Speaker 1: mortem state. So you've got all of those factors working

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Speaker 1: in and we haven't even talked about the actual you know,

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Speaker 1: circumstantial stuff that's out there and the investigator of the

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Speaker 1: shoe leather kind of stuff where you're going to knocking

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Speaker 1: on doors and interviewing people. This is merely which is

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Speaker 1: where we kind of dance. This is merely the forensic stuff.

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Speaker 1: And this stuff is so dense, and every for every

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Speaker 1: case that is added, those are more data points along

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Speaker 1: the way, and it begins to increase exponentially.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was fascinating when they referred to some

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Speaker 2: of the documentation that we're going to get into as

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Speaker 2: a blueprint for a serial killer or blueprint for murder,

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Speaker 2: because we are dealing with a person who is an

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Speaker 2: architect by trade and training, and the way that he

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Speaker 2: allegedly went about his business of killing and note taking

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Speaker 2: and it's not happenstance. It's pre planned, pre thought out

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Speaker 2: and beyond. And in these notes, rex Huerman allegedly acknowledges

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Speaker 2: next time. That's frightening Joe for the man to make

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Speaker 2: notes and say next time, which means he had no

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Speaker 2: plan on stopping. And I'm very curious if rex Huerman

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Speaker 2: between the years that he stopped that Gilgo stopped collecting

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Speaker 2: people or dead bodies, if rex Human found another dumpset

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Speaker 2: and continued, are we going to find another area that

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Speaker 2: rex Huerman? Because I just don't see him stopping all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden out of the thin air ten years ago.

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Speaker 2: He just decides, Okay, I'm done.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. It would be very hard to convince

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Speaker 1: myself of that. And let's take this from another perspective.

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Speaker 1: He's obviously targeting women that are living on the front.

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Speaker 1: Just many of them are are associated with escort services.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, exactly. And you know, in my kind of

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Speaker 1: southern rural mind, it's very difficult. It was difficult for

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Speaker 1: me to appreciate how vast this population that he could

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Speaker 1: select from.

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Speaker 2: Is.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you flyd in New York, you've never

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Speaker 1: been to New York there's population density, and then there's

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Speaker 1: population density. You begin to see how vast this area

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Speaker 1: is and how many people occupied this very small space,

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Speaker 1: and it is a predator's playground. And isn't that interesting

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Speaker 1: Because in the document that we're going to talk about,

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Speaker 1: the word hunting is used, I believe, and he uses

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Speaker 1: the term playtime. And these are some of the most

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Speaker 1: ghastly things that any human being could participate in. What

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Speaker 1: we're hearing and is being alleged by the prosecutor here

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Speaker 1: is accurate. And one more thing, in all honesty, I

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Speaker 1: had never been to Long Island in my life. I'd

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Speaker 1: always heard about it. I have many friends that are

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Speaker 1: from Long Island, and this past April I had the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to be a guest and speak at the Hampton's

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Speaker 1: what's referred to as the Hampton's Who'd Done It. It's

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Speaker 1: a true crime thing that takes place up on up

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Speaker 1: on Long Island, and they generously flew Kim and I

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Speaker 1: in and we got to spend the weekend there talking

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Speaker 1: about cases. But while I was there, we were taken

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Speaker 1: too not only go go beach, because you have to

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Speaker 1: drive right by it en route to East Hampton, did you.

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Speaker 2: Know that ahead of time or was that kind of Hey,

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Speaker 2: we're on the way and this is where they're now.

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Speaker 1: My buddy that was taking us up there, he said,

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Speaker 1: And my buddy that did this is that was so

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Speaker 1: kind to to chauffeur Kim and I from La Guardia

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Speaker 1: all the way up there, which it's about a two

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Speaker 1: and a half hour drive.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we're not talking about something. It's just down the

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Speaker 2: street next Monting.

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Speaker 1: This is, this is, this is robust. I mean the

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Speaker 1: miles and the time. The time is a big thing up.

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Speaker 2: So he was telling you ahead of time, Hey, we're

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Speaker 2: in a drive right by here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my buddy is a retired NYPD cold case investigator.

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Speaker 1: And so not only did he take us to Gilgo Dave,

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Speaker 1: but he also took us to Huerman's home and we

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Speaker 1: you do trick or treat. No, I was not, And

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Speaker 1: it actually it was kind of chilling because the place itself,

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Speaker 1: when you're outside of it, you understand that it's first off,

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Speaker 1: it's a dump and it's a d surrounding homes right,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh. Yeah, and these are not mansions, okay,

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Speaker 1: but they're very very expensive because it's long island and

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Speaker 1: you're more proximal to the city than you are, say,

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Speaker 1: out toward Montac and all of that area. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you begin to consider this neighborhood, this little town

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Speaker 1: where where you know, this family hangs their hat and

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Speaker 1: there was a car in the driveway, all these sorts

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Speaker 1: of things. So this pre this predates by you know,

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Speaker 1: a month or so, this new visitation that we bore

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Speaker 1: witness to on the news where the police came back

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, we got video and we got images,

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Speaker 1: you know, outside of the home. And it's one thing

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Speaker 1: to sit behind the mic and kind of pontificate about

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Speaker 1: cases and places you've never been. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: about Idaho, for instance, and I think about a lot

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Speaker 1: of these cases that we comment on. But when you're

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Speaker 1: you're there and you kind of put on your investigator's

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Speaker 1: hat just for a moment, and you begin to appreciate

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Speaker 1: special relationships, linear distances between the dump site and the home.

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Speaker 1: It puts it in a whole new perspective. And Dave,

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you the fact that what we

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Speaker 1: believe we know now went on in this neat kind

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Speaker 1: of leave it to Beaver neighborhood. It's the thing of nightmares.

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Speaker 1: There have been many times throughout my life. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of it has to do with my kind

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Speaker 1: of cracked lens that I view the world through as

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Speaker 1: a result of the job that I did for so

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Speaker 1: many years. I don't necessarily see nice things everywhere I go.

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Speaker 1: I always think about what darkness is held behind certain walls.

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Speaker 1: You know, you go through a neighborhood and maybe it

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Speaker 1: evokes some memory that I have of cases that I've

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Speaker 1: worked that appear very similar, and you know that there's

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Speaker 1: darkness in certain locations. And I'm not a big fan

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Speaker 1: of the word haunted, However, I think that there is

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Speaker 1: kind of a presence of evil sometimes maybe haunted of locations.

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Speaker 1: And it's not necessarily as the location is haunted. It's

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Speaker 1: the individuals that occupy that space. And Dave, when I

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Speaker 1: think about this house that the human family lived and

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Speaker 1: lives in and what secrets are there, and then I

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Speaker 1: couple that with this wildly beautiful shoreline that they have,

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Speaker 1: because it is it's different than what we have down

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Speaker 1: here or along the Gulf, but it's wind swept, it

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Speaker 1: has it's it's not too different in my estimation from

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Speaker 1: uh from and you described this in great detail to me,

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Speaker 1: the area that you you occupied, that you would go

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Speaker 1: to as a younger man, with the outer banks. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of got that that feel to it.

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Speaker 2: You know, we have an area between the ocean and

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Speaker 2: there's islands and things that run parallel where you end

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Speaker 2: up having an area that's brackish water called the Sound,

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Speaker 2: and then you have the ocean. And that's what we

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Speaker 2: have here in a lot of marshal areas where there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of brackish water to contend with. And the

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Speaker 2: area where the bodies were found at Gilgo. Now I'm

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Speaker 2: fascinated that you when you were headed to the who

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Speaker 2: done it? That it did right right by here And

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Speaker 2: oftentimes when we think about well, I hate calling it

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Speaker 2: a dump site, Joe, that just is so that's vernacular.

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Speaker 1: You go ahead and run with that. There's no shame

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Speaker 1: in that.

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Speaker 2: Area where you know, I believe more than one person

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Speaker 2: has used this area. Only my mind can't wrap it

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Speaker 2: around one person doing all the damage and creating all

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Speaker 2: the carnage. But you drove by it, and I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: as you were riding by, and people drive by this

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Speaker 2: area every day and don't know this is where something

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Speaker 2: horrific happened to another human being. They're end they were

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Speaker 2: already dead when they got here, and this person dumped

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Speaker 2: them here, just hiding them to get away with it.

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Speaker 2: And yet we drive I wonder how many times we

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Speaker 2: drive by something every day where something horrific took place

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Speaker 2: in that space. And I think about the families, and

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Speaker 2: I think about those who have loved ones that have

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Speaker 2: been missing, and they wonder where they are and they've

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Speaker 2: been here all that time. And I wonder, Okay, what

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Speaker 2: it's like for people who knew somebody that they found

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Speaker 2: part of her in one area, but not all of

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Speaker 2: her body parts, and then they find another part years

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Speaker 2: later in a different area. I'm thinking, what kind of

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Speaker 2: person does that?

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Speaker 1: It's a and that's very difficult to take the measure

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Speaker 1: of it, I think. And here's the thing a lot

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Speaker 1: of these locations are. What I saw, particularly with the

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Speaker 1: Gilgo area, is that when you're kind of cruising along

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Speaker 1: the stretch of roadway and it's a four lane, so

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Speaker 1: you have a median, and then you have two lanes

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Speaker 1: that are closer to the beach, and then you have

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Speaker 1: the other two that are on kind of the marshy

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Speaker 1: swampy sound side if you will, And it varies, you know,

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Speaker 1: the topography will change periodically, Dave. The thing about it

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Speaker 1: is is that there's no cover really to conceal yourself.

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Speaker 1: And here's another interesting point that every local up there

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Speaker 1: had told me in our recent trip up there. We

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Speaker 1: arrived in April, it's still cold. I mean, Kim and

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Speaker 1: I were walking around with like sweaters on and you know,

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Speaker 1: light jackets and that sort of thing. It's still it's chili, brother,

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Speaker 1: And they said, we're like two weeks away from the

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Speaker 1: first onslaught of tourists that show up in this location.

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Speaker 1: These arteries up there, if you will. The roadways they

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Speaker 1: talk about them getting clocked. It takes hours and hours

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Speaker 1: sometimes to get to specific destinations. And here's kind of

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Speaker 1: do you know that several of these cases that the

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Speaker 1: police are putting forward from an investigative standpoint, and again

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Speaker 1: these are only approximations. Some of these would have occurred

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Speaker 1: during the height of the vacation season up there. You

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Speaker 1: look at Bartholemey where the police are putting out a

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Speaker 1: number of June tenth, two thousand and nine, Well, that's

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Speaker 1: people on vacation. Megan Waterman June sixth, twenty ten, September

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Speaker 1: second for Amber Costello. That's a pre Labor Day, brother,

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Speaker 1: and so you're still going to have people around that area. Oh,

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Speaker 1: let's don't forget Marine Brainerd Barnes. That's in the heart

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Speaker 1: of summer this July ninth. So how bold do you

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Speaker 1: have to be? I think is a is a grand

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Speaker 1: question here. How sure of yourself and sophisticated are you

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Speaker 1: as a perpetrator that you would be willing to venture

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Speaker 1: out because there's no cover like you if you're in

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Speaker 1: a truck like he's driving, and you pull this thing

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Speaker 1: over in the side the road, people are going to

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Speaker 1: notice you because they have the same kind of and

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Speaker 1: I think that probably it has changed over the years.

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Speaker 1: It's not necessarily the same as it used to be.

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Speaker 1: This is a very tight space though. You have to

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Speaker 1: be so familiar with it, and you have to be

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Speaker 1: able to time traffic as well. And when you drive

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Speaker 1: this route, which we were able to drive that my

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Speaker 1: buddy thinks may have been the route that he took.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a gig.

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Speaker 2: Okay when you say his route, his right from his

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Speaker 2: house to.

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Speaker 1: Guilty Yeah, yeah, And then you take a boat. Well,

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Speaker 1: he would not have had to, particularly when it comes

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Speaker 1: to the Gooka four, because he would have immediate access,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the shoulder of the road. But again

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Speaker 1: it's a big risk. I think egestion.

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Speaker 2: That maybe he opped in a boat and went there

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Speaker 2: at night.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And I and looking out over that sound,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying. You know, I'm familiar with the waterways

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Speaker 1: down in South Louisiana near my family's home, down their homes,

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Speaker 1: and that's treacherous at night because you've got if you

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Speaker 1: don't know the marshes, if you don't know that you're

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Speaker 1: going to get beached somewhere, you're going to run aground.

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Speaker 1: You have to think about, well, where you're going to

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Speaker 1: launch from, and then are you skilled enough to make

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Speaker 1: your way through these areas? And I think it leaves.

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Speaker 2: So different at night on the water.

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Speaker 1: It does.

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Speaker 2: You know, during the day you kind of see market.

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Speaker 2: It's difficult to judge distance the night. I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: because I was always told unless there's an emergency, you

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Speaker 2: have no business going out there. Yeah, I mean as

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Speaker 2: a recreational person, you know, yeah, yeah, And I that's

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Speaker 2: why I was looking at it I'm just kind of curious,

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Speaker 2: so I didn't realize that you were right there. I

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Speaker 2: don't I miss that. Yeah, it's a weird.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a weird space because you've got this

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Speaker 1: kind of gridded off if you go to the north

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Speaker 1: of the sound, it's laid out very logically from town

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Speaker 1: to town. You've got for lack of a better uh,

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Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, and directions are not absolute.

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Speaker 1: But when you think about kind of north south avenues

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Speaker 1: and east west streets, if you if you want to

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Speaker 1: organize it in your brain like that, it's there's grids

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Speaker 1: up there. When you get down near the beach, you know,

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Speaker 1: you kind of follow the rattling home of what the

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Speaker 1: shore is dictating right, and you'll come across bridges, you'll

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Speaker 1: come across uh locations where the road just comes to

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Speaker 1: the right, and so you have to know the space

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Speaker 1: and how much more so when you have the added uh,

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Speaker 1: this added factor of transporting not just deceased individuals, but

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Speaker 1: dismembered individuals. And you're thinking, and when you look at

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Speaker 1: this document that the police have put forward UD regarding

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Speaker 1: these new charges Dave Uh, you begin to think about

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Speaker 1: Huerman has obviously gone to great pains. He's he's very

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Speaker 1: analytical relative to this, and like you said, he's by trade.

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Speaker 1: Let's face it, he's an architect, but he's kind of

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Speaker 1: he has that engineering mindset that everything has a very uh,

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Speaker 1: it's very ordered, and he knew he knew it would

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Speaker 1: seem that the slightest little stake that he could make

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Speaker 1: would get him caught. The only thing is is that

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Speaker 1: he started butchering these women in a time before our

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Speaker 1: DNA technology became as robust as it is now. You see,

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Speaker 1: he maybe didn't count on the fact that he wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to be fighting or resisting the blue lights that

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Speaker 1: might pull him over. You see, his downfall potentially could

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Speaker 1: be in the hands of those that wear white lab

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Speaker 1: coats and that sit inside of forensic laboratories. Human made

375
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Speaker 1: disappearance in court and oh my gosh, the document that

376
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Speaker 1: came along with the saying I started reading through it

377
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Speaker 1: and I knew I didn't know if you had had it,

378
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Speaker 1: because I'm sure you're spinning up stuff for Nancy and

379
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Speaker 1: all these other things that you're involved in. I was saying,

380
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Speaker 1: I got to get this in his hand. And so

381
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Speaker 1: that's why you know, I shot this document off to

382
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Speaker 1: you at that particular time.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, Joe, it answered one of the most

384
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Speaker 2: well we've had the GILG for since the very beginning,

385
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Speaker 2: and they were labeled the go go for even though

386
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Speaker 2: Heureman was only charged at the time with three murders.

387
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Speaker 2: It was the fourth one was added later. But we

388
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Speaker 2: as people who have reported on this particular crime plural,

389
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Speaker 2: we have wondered when are we going to tie some

390
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: of this together? Because there was in fact a woman

391
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Speaker 2: who got added to this yesterday and or recently. I mean,

392
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 2: the investigators have had this for a long time, but

393
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Speaker 2: what they put forward in the warrant arrest warrant lays

394
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 2: out everything they have that they're willing to share, that

395
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 2: they have to share because a judge has to determine

396
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Speaker 2: do they have enough to move forward with this case

397
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Speaker 2: and what they're planning on doing. And when you get

398
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Speaker 2: to the disappearance of Jessica Taylor and the recovery of

399
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 2: her remains, you find out that she is the tie

400
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 2: between Manorville and Gilgo. When the police filed this document yesterday,

401
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 2: they knew full on what was going to happen, that

402
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: this is going to be a headline for a while.

403
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Speaker 2: Now we knew there was different dump sites along the way,

404
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: body parts and things found, but Jessica Taylor being tied

405
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Speaker 2: directly directs Huerman and Jel. I'm very curious about what

406
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: has actually physically tied you. Not talking cell phones, I'm

407
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: not talking about GPS locations. I'm talking about biological evidence

408
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 2: tying Rex Huerman to Jessica Taylor because we have part

409
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 2: of her found in one location and part of her

410
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 2: found in another, separated by many years. I'm thinking about

411
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Speaker 2: the compounded grief on her family, Joe, when they find

412
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Speaker 2: out that she's gone from missing to dead, and then

413
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: years later they find out the rest of the story.

414
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Speaker 2: As Paul Harvey used to say, I just think of

415
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Speaker 2: how her family had to have just been crushed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're talking about somebody that has greatly objectified

417
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Speaker 1: and people throw that term around, you know when it

418
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Speaker 1: comes to you know, scanily clad women and you know,

419
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: sexual things like that save it. You know, this is

420
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Speaker 1: true objectification here. You're talking about somebody that has the

421
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: ability to dehumanize a fellow human to the point where

422
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: they refer to them as things to be played with.

423
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Speaker 1: That's probably the most disgusting element of this. And there's

424
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: so much to choose from here. But as you know,

425
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Speaker 1: you had mentioned Jessica Taylor, you know, you begin to

426
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: think about connectivity, which we're always looking for in investigations.

427
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: I think that probably with her, it's going to be

428
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: biological sample relative to hair dave that's going to tie

429
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: her back. And the beauty of hair is that obviously

430
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: it's a bit more difficult to tease out DNA from it.

431
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Speaker 2: Is that because the hair in and of itself is

432
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Speaker 2: not if it does to have the root, yes, it

433
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: doesn't have what you need correct.

434
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of I think, you know, we

435
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: and we talked about this quite a bit, but you know,

436
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: we shed hair every day. You know, we're you know,

437
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: all of us do. You're gonna lose hair, and so

438
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: you're going to leave behind the strands. But yeah, you're

439
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: gonna look at something, you know, like possibly mitochondrial DNA

440
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: if you've got a broken hair shaft, and it doesn't

441
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: necessarily mean that the hair shaft has been or the

442
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: hair has been broken off, so that it's like in

443
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: an event where it's being pulled out, you know, being

444
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: pulled out, you might have a better chance of finding

445
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: a root which you can get nuclear DNA out of.

446
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: And just to make it very simple, the shaft hair,

447
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: the fractured shaft is a bit more difficult to tease

448
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: it out, but it's certainly better than nothing right right,

449
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: and when you have a specific identifier that you can

450
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: tie back, so the hairs. And it's pretty obvious to

451
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: me that they're focusing at a microscopic level on collection

452
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: of hair and fiber evidence in this case, because it's

453
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: one of the things that they're going to have to

454
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: fall back on. Is quite it's quite powerful because you

455
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: get an insight Dave into the investigation itself.

456
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: He ask you something. Yeah, I hate dinner rup, but

457
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: I'm no okay with Jessica. Let's just take Jessica Taylor

458
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: for a minute. She was one of two new victims

459
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: that has been attributed to Rex Huerman. We're talking about her.

460
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: Torso found on July twenty sixth, two thousand and three

461
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: in Manorville. She's actually found on Halsey Manor Road in Manerville.

462
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: I looked this up earlier because I wanted to see

463
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 2: on a map the distance between Manorville and Guilgo and

464
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: you're talking about forty five minutes, forty five miles between Manorville,

465
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: where Jessica Taylor's torso is found, and Gilgo where her skull,

466
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: hands and forearm are discovered. Now there was nine years,

467
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: but eight years between the discovery of her torso and

468
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: Manorville in two thousand and three and her skull hands

469
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: found at Gilgo in twenty eleven. Joe the obvious. She

470
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: was decapitated, her arms severed below the elbows, and there

471
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: was a tattoo on her torso that was obliterated with

472
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: a sharp object, is what it says. And these are

473
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: all ways of preventing her identification.

474
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, it is and that Okay, you can look

475
00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: at this in a couple of different ways. So you

476
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: can look at it in the long term, and you

477
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: can look at the short term. The excision, if you will,

478
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: of a tattoo from an individual's body is a short

479
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: term answer to trying to prevent someone from being identified.

480
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: You know, you look at it from well, we're going

481
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: to immediately remove this item that's in soft tissue. He

482
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: has to have an understanding of the degrading of human

483
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: remains and kind of at least an elemental understanding of decomposition.

484
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: So if you make an effort to take an edged

485
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: instrument and literally carve out this piece of flesh, which

486
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: is what you're going to have to do, because the

487
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: the tattoos will go down to the dermal level in

488
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: the body, all right, where this you know, this ink

489
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: is being you know, essentially placed into the skin.

490
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,959
Speaker 2: Hey, Joe, assume I miss those days in biology class.

491
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: How deep is the dermal level?

492
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: Well, you can go down probably, Let's see, you can

493
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: be within the dermist before you get to the SubQ fat.

494
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,239
Speaker 1: And he's not going to have a sense of that.

495
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: And when I say, just think of a layer. So

496
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: you've got epidermis, which is that top layer we get

497
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: sunburned skin peels. That's your epidermis, Okay, dry skin epidermis,

498
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: all right, and then you have the dermis, which is

499
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: below that level. So the epidermis acts is almost like

500
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: a protective shield over the dermis. Then you go down

501
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: below the dermis and you get into what's called SubQ fat.

502
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: A matter of fact, SubQ fat. When they say, uh,

503
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: we're going to give you a sub q injection in

504
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: a medical sense, that means that they're not going into

505
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: a vessel. They're going into your subc fat into you know,

506
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: if you're getting inoculated, they're going into your subc fat

507
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: with that needle, all right, So they're not seeking out

508
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: a vessel, so that SUBC fat. If you don't somebody

509
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: that's in my line of work, that has worked in

510
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: the morgue, it would be very easy for us to

511
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: accomplish these tasks. We have to accomplish them when we're

512
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: looking for particular types of evidence, when we're doing a

513
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: dissection of the more. I don't know that he has

514
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: that level of skill. So there's a chance that he

515
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: could have gone down into into the subc fat and

516
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: essentially removed that plug of tissue. And again we don't

517
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: really know the dimensions of the tattoo. I think that's

518
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: important to try to understand. But here's the other thing

519
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: that's very interesting about this. When her body, when they

520
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: annotated this, when the exam was being conducted, there would

521
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 1: still have to be enough soft tissue for the forensic

522
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: pathologists to say, oh, this is not as a result

523
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: of decomposition, this is as a result of an excision. Okay,

524
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: that's you're not talking about skeletonized remains at this at

525
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 1: this point because in order to assess that, you can't

526
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: assess that on bone, Dave, So you have to look

527
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: at soft tissue. If you've got a chunk of missing tissue,

528
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: that gives you an indication that the individual is trying

529
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: to do something. And I've had I've had cases day

530
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: where people have clipped off fingertips right, uh, not teeth

531
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 1: out all of these other you know, kind of very

532
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: superficial things, you know that that are typically done. But

533
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: what does this really say? Oh, what it says is

534
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: that first off, he would have to have tools, and

535
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: he's going to have to have a place to do this,

536
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: and that brings us back to his house.

537
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: But now we've got Rex Hereman linked to two more people,

538
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: and there will probably be others because mentioning before Joe,

539
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: you'll go beach doesn't end with four. And we just

540
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 2: proved that again with Jessica Taylor and uh and and

541
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 2: I wonder how many more.

542
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,919
Speaker 1: I don't know that remains to be seen, But when

543
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: the final toll is taken here, I think it's going

544
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: to be potentially a number that is going to be

545
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: quite shocking. We'll see how how far this goes, and

546
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: how deep they're going to go down this rabbit hole

547
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: with youreman, and how many more victims they can link

548
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: to him. From an investigative perspective, we'll see what their

549
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: evidence is like, how robust is it. Are they going

550
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: to be able to have biological tie acts, which of

551
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: course is going to be the key here. But we

552
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: will continue to watch the developments out of Long Island.

553
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: There will be more, and we have to remember these

554
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: women whose lives were just torn to shreds and their

555
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: families as well. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

556
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: Bodybacks