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Speaker 1: Oh hey, it's the Hunting Collective. Another episode, episode number

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Speaker 1: sixty seven, to be precise. We're getting along in June.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited about that because it means we're closer in September.

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Speaker 1: It feels like everybody likes to talk about thinking about

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Speaker 1: September in June. I like June, though. It's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we've got Miles Nolte, the director of Fishing.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about all things a Lama Larrens. Lama Larrens

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Speaker 1: is a tribe of subsistence whale hunters and a small

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Speaker 1: island in Indonesias. You're gonna learn about those guys. And

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Speaker 1: then we're interviewing an author of the book The Last Whalers,

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Speaker 1: Doug buck Clark, and we're gonna dive into his three

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Speaker 1: years he spent with a Lama Laryerance. It's really interesting subject,

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Speaker 1: so please stick around for that. But before we get

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Speaker 1: to that, we're gonna talk about federal premium ammunition. And

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Speaker 1: in our discussions of federal premium prior, we've been talking

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Speaker 1: about the t s s turkey load. How many turkeys

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Speaker 1: are we killed? But starting to be time to think

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Speaker 1: about get your rifle out so picking your calibers, start

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Speaker 1: making your selections for the upcoming hunting season. And I

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Speaker 1: just did that for bears. And if you look at

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Speaker 1: what caliber to choose for bears, you can go to

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Speaker 1: Federal premiumer dot com and they have an AMMO recommendation

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Speaker 1: section which is pretty damn cool. You click around, you

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Speaker 1: can pick your species, you can pick the load you

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Speaker 1: want to use, and they'll tell you everything you want

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Speaker 1: to do. So it starts with selecting your activity, whether

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Speaker 1: you're target shooting, self defense or hunting, and then it

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Speaker 1: takes you through the steps to choose exactly the caliber

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Speaker 1: necessary to kill the thing you're after. It's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: We've had a lot of people writing and ask those questions,

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Speaker 1: how do I choose the right caliber? Well, Federal Premium

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Speaker 1: offers a pre cool thing on their website to get

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Speaker 1: you exactly where you need to be, whether it's antelope,

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Speaker 1: whether it's bison, whether it's mountain goat, mountain lion. They

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Speaker 1: even have a thing in here for elephants and kay buffalo. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's funny that they have elephant right next to rabbit

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Speaker 1: in the AMMO selection category on the website. So go there.

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Speaker 1: Federal preum dot Com. Visit them check out. There are

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Speaker 1: a recommendations. You're gonna like it, and now let's get

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Speaker 1: to the show. Let's do it. I guess I grew

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Speaker 1: up on an older road, a barrel to the medals.

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Speaker 1: I always did what I told until I found out

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Speaker 1: that my brand new closed a game second hand from

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Speaker 1: the rich kid's next door. And I grew up. Baths

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Speaker 1: I's I grew up. I mean, they have a thousand

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Speaker 1: things inside of my head I wish I ain't seen,

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Speaker 1: and now I just wanted through a real bad dream

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Speaker 1: or being and like I'm coming a part of the scenes.

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Speaker 1: But thank you Jack Daniels. No, no, oh, hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Hunting Collective. You're gonna be listening to

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Speaker 1: this on six nineteen. We're here in the brand New

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Speaker 1: I mean this is like brand spiketty New, as Steve

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Speaker 1: Ornella would say. People have been charging that I'm starting

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Speaker 1: to talk like him, but I can't help it. It's

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Speaker 1: so very contagious his voice anyway, Brand Spicty, New Meat

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Speaker 1: Eater Podcast Studio. It's got all kinds of new microphones

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Speaker 1: and new pictures and a new engineer named Phil. How's

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Speaker 1: a gun. I feel fell and we also have Miles

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Speaker 1: Nolte Hi everybody director of fishing here. I have a

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Speaker 1: confession to make. I also have found myself speaking like

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Speaker 1: Steve lately, and we we did a hot tip off

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Speaker 1: the other day and I use the word fella. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not a That's not in my normal lexicon at all.

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Speaker 1: And as it came out of my mouth, I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: I definitely just absorbed like some of Steve Ranella's Yeah,

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Speaker 1: zegeist right there. Let's take a quick moment to discuss that,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like he had There's something about the

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Speaker 1: way that he approaches things that gets in your damn brain. Yeah, like,

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Speaker 1: what is it? I is it? I can say this

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Speaker 1: and we may get called out on this, but it

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Speaker 1: is not like an intentional attempt to replicate his cadence

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Speaker 1: of speech. It really isn't. It's just it infiltrates your

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Speaker 1: brain in ways that it's it's like insidious. Some people

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Speaker 1: like Colonel Tom Kelly had himil the podcast some weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and I said that he literally narrates. Now that I

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Speaker 1: know what his voice sounds like, I know that he's

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Speaker 1: been near like he's been narrating through his books. My

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Speaker 1: turkey hunting for a long time, like a turkey be

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Speaker 1: coming in. I'll be thinking about, like thinking about Tom

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Speaker 1: Kelly and the narrating. So I think for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, they wake up and they they're inner monologue

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Speaker 1: sounds like Steve Ronilla. Yeah, I thankfully that's not happening yet.

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Speaker 1: I don't wake up in the morning like embodying Steve Ranilla.

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Speaker 1: But I when I'm when I'm working with him and

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Speaker 1: I'm talking with him and we have like these there's

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Speaker 1: a particularly fast paced way of speaking, and you just

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Speaker 1: sort of when you're in a conversation with him, you

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Speaker 1: better keep up where he's going to move on. He

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Speaker 1: walks away. Literally. That's not a lot of people on

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Speaker 1: this cast loved when we did the Game of Thrones

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Speaker 1: bit where I was explaining Game of Thrones to him

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Speaker 1: and I will give you a little bit of behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes. He literally if you go back and listen,

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Speaker 1: he leaves like his portion ends abruptly because he literally

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Speaker 1: stood up, took the headphones off and just walked out.

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Speaker 1: I gotta go. So so maybe that is the reason

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Speaker 1: why you you have to like keep up with Steve

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Speaker 1: in terms of the pace that you speak at which

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Speaker 1: you speak Ruther or the conversation just in he'll leave you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're done, He'll leave you. Uh what do you think

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Speaker 1: about that? Phil, Well, I haven't been here long enough

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Speaker 1: to uh kind of experience this, but I'm looking forward

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Speaker 1: to boring Steve in the near future. I'm sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I can talk about Game of Thrones as well,

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Speaker 1: I can't talk as well about about hunting. So you're

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Speaker 1: gonna fit in here exactly. It is a safe space

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Speaker 1: where you don't have to live up to Steve's expectations.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm, I'm, I'm at home. Then there we go.

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Speaker 1: You're you're gonna be here? Well, welcome, Welcome to Mediator.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna I'm gonna make sure Phil gets in a

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Speaker 1: lot of these shows because this, this could be a mistake.

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Speaker 1: This is where it ends for you. This could be

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Speaker 1: a yeah, oh he's heard that so many times before,

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Speaker 1: No idea. I am the barnacle on the hunting industry.

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Speaker 1: I'm a barnacle. Look at this, Watch this transition. Speaking

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Speaker 1: of barnacles. Yes, you like that. Speaking of barnacles, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about whales specifically. Uh. The last the very

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Speaker 1: last subsistence whale hunting culture whale hunting because they're not

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Speaker 1: they aren't fishing for definitely hunting. And I'm gonna say,

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Speaker 1: if we have time, I want to go back to Barnacles,

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Speaker 1: but continue with the whales. Please, We'll end on Barnacles,

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Speaker 1: I have to say, Um, and I wanted to start

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Speaker 1: the conversation of this well, in the interview portion of

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Speaker 1: the show, you're gonna hear a guy named Doug buck Clark.

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Speaker 1: And Doug is a very earnest um man who you know,

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Speaker 1: we both fancy ourselves journalists. I have a journalism degree,

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Speaker 1: things of that nature. So I say that, but here's

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Speaker 1: a man who's won many awards and has spent years

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Speaker 1: and months working on one piece of journalism which we

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Speaker 1: can't hear to digital media company even UM understand no.

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Speaker 1: The level of dedication to embed with a culture for

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Speaker 1: three years, to work on a singular project. I mean

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Speaker 1: that that is incredibly laudable, and we don't have enough

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Speaker 1: of that long form journalism going on at all. So

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Speaker 1: Doug I went to Raley, North Carolina and sat in

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Speaker 1: Doug's house when we talked about his book, The Last Whalers.

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Speaker 1: So you'll hear that in some minutes here. But what

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Speaker 1: I wanted to it's not that you need to know

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Speaker 1: who the Lama Layarans are, which is the tribe and

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Speaker 1: the culture that is based off a small island in Indonesia.

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Speaker 1: It's not that you really need to know much about them,

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Speaker 1: but to understand kind of the questions that they have.

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Speaker 1: And there are questions we all have asked ourselves this,

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Speaker 1: but I just wrote down on that like the main

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Speaker 1: they have these main questions. It goes in Doug's book

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Speaker 1: when you read about the Lama Larrans and you understand

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Speaker 1: kind of where they are with the struggle between modernity

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Speaker 1: and their culture and and worshiping their ancestors, which they do.

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Speaker 1: They asked, there're still these questions, who are we, who

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Speaker 1: were we, who are we now? And who will we become?

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Speaker 1: And they asked themselves these questions and so many tangible

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Speaker 1: ways that we can't really relate to. They they worshiped

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Speaker 1: in their culture. They worship their ancestors. Their ancestors are

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Speaker 1: the souls of their ancestors inform what they do on

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Speaker 1: a daily basis. Also in their culture. They are struggling

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Speaker 1: now with the things that modernity brings. The younger generations

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Speaker 1: are bringing in cell phones to their culture. They're bringing

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Speaker 1: in TV and pop culture and different things from around

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Speaker 1: the world. So they're struggling with who are we right now?

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Speaker 1: And then generationally, how can we hang onto this thing

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Speaker 1: that we have, which will here Doug talk about the

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Speaker 1: culture that they have with subsistence whale hunting and being

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Speaker 1: off that resource. And so those three questions are um

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Speaker 1: part of their daily lives in a way that struck

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Speaker 1: me as as pretty profound. Do you find yourself now

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Speaker 1: engaging in those questions for yourself and your own family

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Speaker 1: as a result of that, not not in such a

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Speaker 1: tangible ways that they do, because we don't have we

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Speaker 1: don't have the direct impacts to our lives the way

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Speaker 1: that they do. They're seeing the erosion of their lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: They're seeing, um, they're the people they used to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, changed in such in such a stark way.

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Speaker 1: We we see little changes, right like little I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I'm gonna agree with you on that. I

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Speaker 1: think So let's this this I think relates to and

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Speaker 1: and certainly, and maybe it's not in as dramatic fashion

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Speaker 1: as actually losing a subsistence whaling culture. But how often

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Speaker 1: do we talk about the erosion of outdoor sporting culture

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Speaker 1: and the direct threat that that poses to our identities,

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Speaker 1: to our livelihood, to the ways that we want to

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Speaker 1: envision our own culture in society. This is this is

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Speaker 1: a constant refrain that we are bringing up through the

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Speaker 1: media that we create and through the people that we

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Speaker 1: talked to. So I don't know that I agree with

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Speaker 1: you to say that this isn't a significant piece of

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Speaker 1: what we think can talk about. Yeah, no, you're right

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Speaker 1: about that. I just think it's not a stark I mean,

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Speaker 1: for them, it's like, can we still can we still

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Speaker 1: row out in a small boat and spear a like

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Speaker 1: a forty ton whale and drag it back to and

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Speaker 1: chop it up with machetes? Can we still do that?

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Speaker 1: For us? It's it's it's a little more, you know,

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Speaker 1: intricate than that. But the main ideas stand, who are

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Speaker 1: who are like? As a modern hunter, who are we? Who?

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Speaker 1: Who are we? Now? Who do we want to be?

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Speaker 1: Who were we? All those things are intertwined and everything

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Speaker 1: we do absolutely and and modern hunting and fishing is

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Speaker 1: so drastically divorced from true subsistence culture, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if we're looking at it in that kind of timeline,

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Speaker 1: were we we were once desperately needing to harvest game

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Speaker 1: and fish to survive to feed our families. Where are

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Speaker 1: we now? Well, we feel some sort of connection to that.

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Speaker 1: It enriches our livelihood and our identity in your existence

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Speaker 1: in some not very tangible but important way. Where are

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Speaker 1: we going? We want to hold onto the ability to

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Speaker 1: not have to do this, but be able to do it.

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Speaker 1: It's a different the stakes are different, and you'll hear

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Speaker 1: Doug talk about in the interview that there's the things

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Speaker 1: that they have. In fact, anthropologists have have studied their

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Speaker 1: culture and said this is one of the most cooperative

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Speaker 1: cultures because they're there. They have a group called the Lamafi,

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Speaker 1: which are like the top hunt the top whalers. They

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Speaker 1: stand at the back of the boat. These are the

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Speaker 1: top hunters in the culture. Right, So there exalted in

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Speaker 1: they hold a high status. They they have to share

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Speaker 1: the meat. They only kill so many whales that that

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Speaker 1: meat has to be distributed over or so people that

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Speaker 1: live uh in the inlet there where they live, and

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Speaker 1: so they have to think of sharing there there isn't there.

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Speaker 1: There isn't the concept of being selfish, of of taking

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Speaker 1: that for your own. You're literally serving the whole community.

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Speaker 1: And so you find you find that through indigenous hunting

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Speaker 1: cultures and things through the time that I mean, I

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Speaker 1: would say that's another piece that has eroded from if

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Speaker 1: we're getting looking at it in those those three point

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Speaker 1: touch points from where we were to where we are

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Speaker 1: and where we're going. That's that's not at all part

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Speaker 1: of our contemporary hunting culture. I mean, sure, we we

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Speaker 1: share like I might. I might give a buddy some meat.

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Speaker 1: I might come back and like, hey man, I've got

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Speaker 1: I got a whole lot of mule there. Do you

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Speaker 1: want something? But that's not the same as being beholden

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Speaker 1: to a community that's not just hoping that you'll share

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Speaker 1: something around, but needing you to be successful in your

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Speaker 1: hunt in order to have your whole community survive. That's

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Speaker 1: a different level than and and to be fair, Doug's

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Speaker 1: not the only per to have covered the lama lect.

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Speaker 1: Many many folks have written about them outside magazine. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's even some more endemic to what we do have

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Speaker 1: written about them. And I think it's those curiosities that

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Speaker 1: we have that we hold innately, that have driven that coverage.

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Speaker 1: Like here's this example of we've we've gone over and

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Speaker 1: and Doug mentions this in the interview, We've gone over

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Speaker 1: like a cultural extinction. These hunter gatherer cultures are slowly

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Speaker 1: dying over over time, and the numbers are he'll hear

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Speaker 1: them later, but the numbers are pretty pretty astounding. And

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Speaker 1: we're losing us this this sense of ourselves. But I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna flip that a little bit and say

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Speaker 1: that's a privileged position for us to sit in, right,

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Speaker 1: to be able to say like, oh, it's so sad

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Speaker 1: these hunter gathering cultures are going away. Right. But if

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Speaker 1: I'm the youth of that culture sitting there, going here,

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Speaker 1: my options are to either be on this boat rowing

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Speaker 1: for my life, probably going to get mangled and potentially

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Speaker 1: killed by this whale. Or I could have a cell

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Speaker 1: phone and an office job. He could have options like

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Speaker 1: how arrogant is it of us to sit where we're

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Speaker 1: sitting right now and say like, it's really sad that

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Speaker 1: you guys are losing your culture. If I'm knowing, like,

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Speaker 1: screw you man. Oh there's and there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people you reading the book, there's a lot of characters

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Speaker 1: in and Doug's book that kind of struggle with this.

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Speaker 1: Some of them choose, some of them completely leave their

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Speaker 1: their children, their family, They go into they go and

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Speaker 1: live in town, and then they leave it. But the

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Speaker 1: funny thing about the Lama learns is that they've been

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Speaker 1: able to through all kinds of legal but not only

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Speaker 1: just battles within their own you know, culture and sense

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Speaker 1: of self, but legal battles. Animal rights groups want to

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Speaker 1: come in and stop there what they do so, but

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Speaker 1: they've been able to hang onto that which which must

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Speaker 1: mean it has some value to them or has some

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Speaker 1: great value to them generationally that even though they'll have

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Speaker 1: these battles and have to make a choice, we will

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Speaker 1: never have to really make. We make that we make

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Speaker 1: the choice to hunt, rather than the reverse or having

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Speaker 1: to have like a one versus one there. You know,

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Speaker 1: we could certainly stop punting and fishing tomorrow and be

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Speaker 1: just fine. Many many folks are um the way their

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Speaker 1: culture as they can, well they can, but doing so

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Speaker 1: requires a sea change in the way their culture operates

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Speaker 1: and a loss of that communal sense and a loss

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Speaker 1: of those traditional hierarchies and roles and a loss of

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Speaker 1: everything that they understand as being themselves is holding them

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Speaker 1: up as unique. But again, maintaining that requires significant sacrifice,

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Speaker 1: and it's hard. I think. I think it's it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily this is this is sort of a weird um

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Speaker 1: imperialism that we we still do of going into native

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Speaker 1: cultures and being like, you know, what you should do

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Speaker 1: is keep it like it is. Yeah, you don't, don't

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Speaker 1: be like us, don't. I know this looks comfortable and

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Speaker 1: great because I've never had to really work a day

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Speaker 1: in my life. Like your phones give you cancer. It's

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Speaker 1: really tough. You have you seen how fat we are?

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Speaker 1: Do you really want to be that fat? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: think once you get past if you start to get

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Speaker 1: into this and it's it's really interesting to me for

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Speaker 1: these reasons. But also people will really find that a

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Speaker 1: group of people that dragged bull sharks by their tail

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Speaker 1: onto the beach and beat them with clubs and tiger sharks,

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Speaker 1: which is which is even more shocking. End up, like

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Speaker 1: sperm well was one of the largest things on the earth,

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Speaker 1: largest prayer on the earth, um forty tons, and they're

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Speaker 1: going in small wooden ships and spearing them and sometimes

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Speaker 1: spending days and days chasing these these whales. So once

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Speaker 1: you get past like that's just an amazing of itself

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Speaker 1: that they're able to do that physically and mentally and

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Speaker 1: with with the skill that they have. Once you get

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Speaker 1: past that, then you start to really get into the

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Speaker 1: sense of our relationship like we're we're them, but we're

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Speaker 1: also not them. Yeah, I'm we We think that we've

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Speaker 1: really done something when you know, we hike ten miles

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Speaker 1: into the back country and kill an elk and carry

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Speaker 1: it all out like that's with Italian leather boots. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we hold that. I was like, man, that dude's Badassah.

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Speaker 1: He took you took that whole elk out by himself,

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Speaker 1: you see that, no ship? Wow, Like that's that's what

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Speaker 1: we hold up as the gold standard of badass hunter.

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't even compare not to this, not to this. Um.

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Speaker 1: What's when you think about when you think about the

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Speaker 1: lamb learns, you's kind of just read about the concepts

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Speaker 1: of the book. What questions did you have, Like, do

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Speaker 1: you have any questions? Yeah? And I need to admit

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Speaker 1: something to the audience right now, I have not read

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Speaker 1: the book. No, I didn't do my home. I only

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Speaker 1: listened to the audiobook. Who who did the recording on that?

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Speaker 1: Who did the video? I don't know what. Were they good?

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Speaker 1: Not as good as you would have been. No way,

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Speaker 1: look at that velvet in these new mics that Phil got,

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Speaker 1: these new these new mics make make us sound even better. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've listened to a lot of people talking

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Speaker 1: to Mike's listen to this voice right here, give him,

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Speaker 1: give him something real smooth there. This voice right here

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Speaker 1: is straight velvet, just just for you, Phil, This is

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Speaker 1: all for you. I quit. It's not getting any better.

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Speaker 1: That's like a ten out of ten in it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's great, that's pretty good. I like it. Verry White

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Speaker 1: and Good shipped on me. Um. In terms of your

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Speaker 1: your question about the book, I mean, the first, honestly,

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Speaker 1: the first thing I thought of when I read it

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Speaker 1: was a different book that I had read called The

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Speaker 1: Sex Lives Accountables, which is kind of similar, but different island,

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Speaker 1: different culture, different deal. Um. What I was hungry for was,

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Speaker 1: and this may be super stereotypical male of me, but

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Speaker 1: I wanted to hear the details of like those those

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Speaker 1: harpooner guy what's what's their class called lama fu um

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to understand one the specifics of what

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Speaker 1: they do and to how they sort of fit into

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Speaker 1: the broader hierarchical structure of the culture. And three how

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Speaker 1: one gets to be in the lama fi. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's there's a character in the book you you

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Speaker 1: follow Hit You follow kind of his family and his

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Speaker 1: father and then he becomes at the end of the thing,

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Speaker 1: becomes a lama fine And he has this he probably

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Speaker 1: embodies as much as anything, the choice that these generational

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Speaker 1: folks have to make, Like do I want to stick

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Speaker 1: with this? Do I want to be a whale hunter?

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Speaker 1: Do I be one of the most exalted well hunters

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Speaker 1: in this culture? Or do I want to hike over

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Speaker 1: the mountain, go down into the to the valley, get

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Speaker 1: on a boat, go across the town and work at

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Speaker 1: a Samsung shop or something. Um. So you see those things.

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Speaker 1: But his journey I won't spoil because Dug talks about

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Speaker 1: it good bit in our interview, But his journey to

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Speaker 1: become alma fi kind of like typifies what this culture is,

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Speaker 1: what they mean, what they mean to each other, what

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Speaker 1: they might mean to us. Just and that's what this

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Speaker 1: book does a great job of. It takes some individual

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Speaker 1: stories and helps to to kind of weave those together

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Speaker 1: to give you another standing of the bigger picture within

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Speaker 1: the culture. So it's it's it's worth your time. Um.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I told Doug, I listened to the audiobook

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Speaker 1: and then read the book, and then read listened to

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Speaker 1: the audiobook because I thought, um, it just struck it

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Speaker 1: just struck me those those questions we started with, which

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Speaker 1: is also like say that the details of how do

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Speaker 1: you do this? Yes, I can't. I I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: And so you'll you'll get you'll get in there. You know,

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Speaker 1: guy's spearing whales and being drug under the water, guys

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Speaker 1: um being tracking whale that's wounded and being stuck out

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Speaker 1: the sea for days and days and days and thinking

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Speaker 1: they were going to die, and you know, and there.

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Speaker 1: They believe that their boats have souls, that their spears

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Speaker 1: have souls. They believe that each good or bad thing

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Speaker 1: that happens to them while hunting is informed by their ancestors.

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Speaker 1: They must have done something to what we would say,

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Speaker 1: piss off the ancestor um in their hunting. So even

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Speaker 1: those those small parts of their storyline are interesting to me.

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Speaker 1: But I'm again I didn't do the homework, so I

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Speaker 1: don't know I'm making this up, but I would I

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Speaker 1: would guess that if the folks like the central character

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Speaker 1: John Right m hm, who are among the crop of

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Speaker 1: young men who have at least a hope of making

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Speaker 1: their version of the NFL right like he is he is,

395
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Speaker 1: he is a top prospect that's being courted. I can

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Speaker 1: see how he would be truly at at at a

397
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Speaker 1: point of friction of deciding which way he wanted to go.

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Speaker 1: Could am I gonna stick around here and potentially be

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Speaker 1: the top person within this culture? Or am I going

400
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Speaker 1: to go to lead a different life where I may

401
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 1: not have to work so hard, but I certainly won't

402
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 1: get as much recognition. But but what about the kid

403
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 1: that's coming up in that culture there's no hope of

404
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 1: ever being the killer Whaler? Like, what about that kid

405
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Speaker 1: who's like the bench warmer? If if I'm that kid,

406
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Speaker 1: you're damn right, I'm going to Samsung right because because

407
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Speaker 1: and I would guess that that's part of what's eroding

408
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: that culture is that the ones who are at the

409
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Speaker 1: bottom of the pecking order and who are dependent don't

410
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Speaker 1: have a choice anymore, like the or excuse means have

411
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Speaker 1: a choice now where they didn't have a choice before.

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Speaker 1: They can go and move to Jakarta. And I would

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Speaker 1: guess those are the folks who were out and there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of that and then a lot of

415
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Speaker 1: that erosion in their culture. But then there's been a

416
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Speaker 1: shocking level of fight for their traditions, you know, and

417
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Speaker 1: so that it's just again there's this push pool of

418
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Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that modernity could do to

419
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Speaker 1: make our lives better, but we feel at least the

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00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: core of their culture feels so strongly about its benefits

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Speaker 1: that they're willing to fight for it. And they fought

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Speaker 1: publicly for him. So that's interesting that that's I think

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Speaker 1: tells a lot about this book. I think the book

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Speaker 1: and the subject matter is all about a struggle with modernity.

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Speaker 1: I mean, really in this time, if you, if you like,

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Speaker 1: say remove the more tangible activities and how amazing they are,

427
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 1: it's about that. I mean, they're pulling a tiger shark

428
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: by the tail and whacking into the head of the club.

429
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen a tiger shark in person? Uh? No?

430
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: I have not that I can think of, And I

431
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: can think of very few things more fearsome than being

432
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: in the water and seeing a tiger shark. Yeah. The

433
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: last thing I would ever do is be like, you know,

434
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: what's a good idea. I'm gonna see about pulling that tail.

435
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: See what I can do? Like, I cannot imagine a

436
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: reality in which that would happen to my brain. Yeah, well,

437
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 1: and you'll and you'll. The funny thing about the modernity

438
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: deal is like they made all these best with themselves, Like, well,

439
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: on board motors, We're gonna we'll put those on, like

440
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 1: just the rescue boats, but not the hunting boats. Interesting

441
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: and so there, I think maybe what they've done well

442
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: and the core of their culture is to kind of

443
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: give a little bit to modernity, enough to give a

444
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: little bit of room for the new generations to feel

445
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: to feel connected there. Um, but and I'm sure the

446
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: book deals with this, But is that a slippery slope?

447
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, By by putting that first motor on on

448
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: the rescue boat, are you inevitably down the road gonna

449
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 1: have one on the chase boat? Yeah? Yeah, I mean probably.

450
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: And so it's a creep, right, it's a siddle creep.

451
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: But I think it again if you I'm I'm just

452
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: assuming a lot of folks haven't read. I think the

453
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: book came out like early this year in January, assuming

454
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 1: a lot of folks haven't ready to go go pick

455
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: it up and and give it a read. Um. And

456
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 1: I was also thinking, well, we should address here, UM

457
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: a couple of emails read emails, we have t c

458
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: at the mediator dot com, and you guys have been

459
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 1: writing in enough that I can't really keep up with

460
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: what's going on. UM, So I figured it's you know,

461
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: we should probably address some things. You have some things

462
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: to talk about. Are we are we off of whales?

463
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: Or is this connected to whales? It's gonna be off

464
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: of whales. I'll do we need to Phil, do you

465
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: want to wrap us up on whales? Not not particularly now? Thanks?

466
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: Thanks Phil. You know what I'm gonna I'm gonna. I'm

467
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: gonna booke nd you. I got you here, Bunny, because

468
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: we started, we got into Wales from barnacles. I'm gonna

469
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: come out of Wales with barneccles. I'm gonna help you

470
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: with this something that everyone should actually another book I

471
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: think people should read Darwin same guy Theory of Evolution,

472
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 1: wrote an entire book on barnacles and the fascinating methods

473
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: that barnacles have of surviving and reproducing. Interesting part about

474
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: that book is he was halfway through the Theory of

475
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 1: evolution and he took like three years to write a

476
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 1: book on barnacles before finishing the Theory of Evolution. What'd

477
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: I say about Darwin that he was terrified of what

478
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: was going to happen as soon as he released his

479
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: Theory of evolution into into your credic society barnacles. So

480
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: you know what's not gonna piss anybody off at all,

481
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: Barnacle sex. I'm gonna write about that. Let's take a

482
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: three year Barnacle sex break exactly. And and I'm for

483
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 1: all of you out there who are total science nerds,

484
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: the Darwin tom On Barnacle sex film, this is for

485
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: you too, fascinating. And then the question that's in my

486
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: mind right now is what's gonna be my barnacle sex

487
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: because eventually I'm gonna get tired of podcasting and I

488
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: want to want something new. Well, I mean, if you're

489
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: really going to make this this lineup, you have to

490
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: have some sort of really really big, like earth shattering,

491
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: society changing idea that you're halfway through and you're scared

492
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: to put out and barnacle sex is your distraction. I

493
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: can tell you, guys that I like, I'm working on

494
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: something you could super deep. You'll never know. It's a

495
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: it's a missile launcher, alright, so el cum Hey, so

496
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: thanks for closing that out. Phil, Listen, I'm not gonna lie.

497
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: This is a well just to let the audience now,

498
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: this is the first recording we're doing with all this

499
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: new equipment, all this new stuff. I've been kind of

500
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: drifting in and out, listening to the room tone, listening

501
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: to see if how much of the air conditioning we

502
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: can hear. I was going in and out on whales

503
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: and then you said, hey, Phil, close it out, but

504
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: and I floundered a little bit. I just want to

505
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: I listen. I told you right up front it was

506
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: a huge mistake letting me talk into this. I feel

507
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: I feel regret. I thought you'd have some really deep

508
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: I thought you might be the closer, like for for

509
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: every segment. No, no, no, Roger Clemens, he was a

510
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: closer Phil to go down and flames, buddy, So I

511
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: did stick the Gamela. You're no John Snow, you're no Melissandro.

512
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: Here you go. That's probably better. I understand that you

513
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: understand those references. Um So, anyway, right in at TC,

514
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: at the mentor to Colm for any comments about Phil.

515
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: Oh boy, yeah, we're gonna we just wanna make sure

516
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: he's make sure you guys like him before we bring

517
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: him back. Vote vote up or down on Phil. You've

518
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: already voted up a dad on me a lot, a lot.

519
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: We're gonna turn to expanded out to Phil, expanded to film. Uh,

520
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: father's Day just happened. Before we get to our interview.

521
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk a little bit about father's Day. This

522
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: might bring Phil back to maybe his wheelhouse. And we

523
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: don't know. I am a father, alright, perfect and everyone

524
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: has a father. So that's that helps. Um hold on,

525
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: I lost my email. Hold on, everybody, you're blowing it there.

526
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: It is okay, And this has to be like a

527
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: hard name to pronounce. Try this one miles in your

528
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: your radio voice. Elias tour Hyden. Let's get that again.

529
00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: I like that. Elias tour Hiden. Oh yes, Elias okay.

530
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: Last right in he wrote in and he said some

531
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: things um about last podcast two podcasts go Now. We

532
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: talked about fathers there and I gave a little uh

533
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: speech on what my dad means to me, and the

534
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: last wrote in he said, on your last podcast, you

535
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: said to reach out and thank the people who took

536
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: slash take you hunting, And that was kind of in

537
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: my monologue. I really just wanted to thank my dad

538
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: on the air, but also have everybody reach out to

539
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: the person that really is the reason that you're where

540
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 1: you are in the hunting world. And he says, well,

541
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: for me, that's you and Mr Ronnella more than anyone

542
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: else the last two years. I'm a brutal adult, onset

543
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: rookie hunter and if it wasn't for you guys, most

544
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: of my experiences something would be from a truck like

545
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: the few people I know who do hunt. Instead, I'm

546
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: trying to teach myself to still hunting spot and stalk

547
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,719
Speaker 1: Baron dear, and though it's going slow, I'm still doing it.

548
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: So I'm reaching out. Thanks, UM, good on your good

549
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: on you man. Yeah, uh, I don't that's that's not

550
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: a humble brag on my part. It until you call

551
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: it call it out, but it is. Um when I say,

552
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: like when you know, when you say to reach out

553
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: to somebody it's hunting, there's a lot of people like

554
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: alives out there that just I want somebody to help

555
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: him out, and it's it's pretty damn important. I mean,

556
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: I think that we we spent a lot of time

557
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: thinking about the folks who have taken us hunting or fishing,

558
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: or learning how to navigate in the woods or whatever

559
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: it is, that we are very difficult to be self

560
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: taught and really almost impossible learn from a book. I'm

561
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: not gonna say it's impossible. You can learn these things

562
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: from a book, but not without a lot of extra effort.

563
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: But I don't know that we always think about the

564
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: flip side of that, which is who who am I

565
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: gonna impart that to other than our own children? And

566
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: I think we all have people who would really appreciate

567
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: getting the opportunity. Even I'm gonna call you out specifically

568
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: on this last since you're talking to us. You may

569
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: not think you have a ton of knowledge at this point,

570
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: but I'm willing to bet there's somebody in your life

571
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: who knows less than you do and would benefit greatly

572
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: from going out in the field with you and learning

573
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: what knowledge you gathered in the last couple of years. Yeah,

574
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: that's for sure. And that's something that I myself don't

575
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: do enough of. And I talked about it a lot.

576
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: I think about it a lot, but I need to

577
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: get better at executing that. Yeah, and that was I mean,

578
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 1: I've I've I've got a bunch of other emails. Here

579
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: are people in party like, this is my story, this

580
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: is how I came into this, and that's I mean,

581
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: there's a reason why we all have to share our stories,

582
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: our origin stories with because we're narcissists. Yes, that's it.

583
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: That's why I shared that at email so you guys

584
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: could be like, see how impactful this is. Keep listening, Okay, Phil,

585
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,719
Speaker 1: give us something. Well, I um, it's weird working at

586
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: this company because I mean, I told, I told the

587
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: honest and Steve straight up. I didn't grow up with hunting.

588
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: You know, my dad didn't hunt, my grandparents didn't hunt.

589
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: No one in my family hunts. I'm mostly here because

590
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: I know how to twiddle knobs and uh and make

591
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: miles sound just a little bit a little bit more velvet.

592
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: But do you fish, Phil, I have fished? You have

593
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: that is not the same thing as do I fish? Yeah, No,

594
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: I've never I've been living in Montana for eleven years.

595
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: Never fly fished, got fly fishing friends. Most fishing I've

596
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: done is off of a on a lakeside and Washington State.

597
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this question. Are you starting

598
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: to see miles and eyes mentors already? Are you looking

599
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: up to us? Yeah? Is it obvious? And you're starting

600
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: to already look up to us just after one recording,

601
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: just because I'm tall though, Yeah, that's really that's how

602
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: that works. Well as a mentor, You're welcome. I'll take

603
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: you go hunting. That's how the podcast ends, is sort

604
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: of like I want to have a catch Dade and

605
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: and to feel the dreams or whatever. You want to

606
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: have a hunt. All right, we're getting into the interview portion.

607
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: Were let Phil go out on a high note like

608
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: George Costanza. Uh, here we are. We're going to transport

609
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: ourselves in time to the home of Doug boch Clark

610
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: to learn more about the Lamon Layers. Enjoy Doug, how

611
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: are you, Drey? Thanks for having me on. Yeah, thanks

612
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: for having me into your home here. That's a pleasure.

613
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: It's not not your usual hunting grounds, but thanks for

614
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: making it out here. Yeah, and I don't think this

615
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: will be our normal hunting conversation. Um. That we were

616
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: just before I record talking about kind of how to

617
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: frame up the story the story of your book, The

618
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: Last Whalers, the story of what you went through, the

619
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: story of the people that you were around, um with

620
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: with with my audience, the modern hunting audience, and how

621
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: to kind of relate those two things. I think that

622
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: will be our biggest challenge with the time that we

623
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: have to do that. So, um, let's quickly get into

624
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: who you are and then just I think the pace

625
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: of this will will be as fast as we can

626
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: get it, just to get all this information and perspective

627
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: and in the time that we have. Um. So, you're

628
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: a writer and a journalist. You've written for for many

629
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 1: publications New York Times, g Q, Wired, Rolling Stone, Men's Journal, Esquire.

630
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: You have a lot of honors in the journalism space. Um,

631
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: just talk about your career and kind of your philosophy

632
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: on writing and journalism. Yeah. So, I'm a freelance journalist

633
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: and right primarily magazine features, which are the longer articles

634
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: that go in the center of the magazines. And do

635
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: a lot of investigative work, especially in Asia. UM. But

636
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: recently I published my first book, which is called The

637
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: Last Whalers UM, and it's the story of a hunter

638
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: gatherer tribe in Indonesia that survives by hunting sixty ft

639
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: long sperm whales with bamboo harpoons. And they're generally considered

640
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: this sort of the last true big game hunter left

641
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: in the world who truly survived by doing this. Yeah,

642
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: I think the Lama Larians are one of the more

643
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: interesting people and like your your interaction with them is

644
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: one of the more interesting interactions in the book. UM.

645
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: I just went through the read the whole book and

646
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: then listened to the audiobook on on on my travels

647
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: here recently, and it just was enthralled by the story

648
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 1: that people. You know, you did a great job of

649
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 1: coloring the people you met and their stories and kind

650
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: of the trials and tribulations that they went through, everything

651
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: from being sucked under into the ocean by you know,

652
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: like you said, what is it a four ton sperm whale?

653
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: Like the probably probably sperm whale. Um. You know, there's

654
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: the largest predator, largest carnivore on the earth with a

655
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: bamboo spear, you know, like that life and death story,

656
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: but also the grander story of modernity and subsistence hunters

657
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: and how those things clash clashed together. UM. And so

658
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 1: just start with how you first learned these people's and

659
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: how you came to want to know more about them.

660
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: So I was living in Indonesia UM shortly after graduating

661
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: from college, and I was living on a fairly remote island,

662
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 1: not truly out there, but you know, very far off

663
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 1: the beaten path. And while I was there, I heard

664
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 1: these stories about UM, a group that wailed for their living,

665
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: and they didn't whale in an industrial way. They still

666
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: practiced the old ways UM. And at first I didn't

667
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: believe this, that people who are telling me this had

668
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: had a habit of pulling my leg. They would tell

669
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: me things like dinosaurs lived up in the jungles and stuff.

670
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: But when I finally got an Internet connection, I looked

671
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: this up and I found out, holy sh it, that

672
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: this actually does exist. UM. So during during that time,

673
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: I went and spent a few weeks with them UM.

674
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 1: And at that point I wasn't looking to write anything

675
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: about them. I was on a governmental fellowship from the U. S.

676
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: State Department um, but I was just curious to really

677
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: see if this existed. And when, after several years, UM

678
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: I became a journalist, I started writing for a lot

679
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: of publications, and when it became clear that I had

680
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: the capacity to do a book, I knew that this

681
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 1: was a story that was grand enough and important enough

682
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: that I would want to spend several years of my

683
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: life working on it. Yeah, yeah, and that, and what

684
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: were the I think I could answer the main reasons

685
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: for that, But what when you really looked at their

686
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: who they were and what they were in their culture?

687
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: What what were the things that they're gonna drove you

688
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: to spend this much time with them and thinking about them.

689
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: So on that first island, one of the things that

690
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: I had noticed was I had come in contact with

691
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: a lot of traditional cultures, a lot of tribes that

692
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: still survived, as you know, in a mixed sort of

693
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 1: foraging slash agricultural tradition. Um. They didn't do things as

694
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: spectacular as hunts burm whales with bamboo arpoons, but they

695
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: might hunt sharks or other or other things. Um or

696
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: you know, they they would hunt the animals that were

697
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: up in the jungle. And I also became aware of

698
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 1: how fast these cultures were vanishing. Um. I could see

699
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: it almost as a month by month thing. As this

700
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 1: road got constructed into the jungle, and as these groups

701
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: encountered things, um, you know, as they got better electricity

702
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: and TVs and their youth became more interested in, you know,

703
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: what was going on in Jakarta and what was going

704
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: on in Hollywood. Then continuing the ways of their ancestors,

705
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: and so as I um sort of traveled both the

706
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: Indonesian archipelago and the whole world, I saw that this

707
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: was a worldwide story about the change of how humans survived.

708
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: Once we were all hunter gatherers, once we all hunted

709
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: for our survival. And yet at this point, almost none

710
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: of those groups are left, and they will probably all

711
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: be wiped out within the next um, you know generation

712
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 1: or so. Yeah, And that's I've always when people ask me, like,

713
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: what would be the goal of your what is one

714
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: of the goals of your hunting existence, and like what's

715
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: the one thing you'd like to achieve? And I'd often

716
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: talk about that point is I would like to understand

717
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: the mindset of someone who lives in a substence of subsistence,

718
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: mindset like that doesn't think it doesn't have the modern

719
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: luxuries of thought that I do, Uh, don't think about

720
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: you know, the modern pushing pools between wild life and

721
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 1: and it was it literally is and for the Lamlarians,

722
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: it's it's their culture, it's their religion. I mean, they

723
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: we can get into this, but they think that the

724
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: ships have souls and the ropes have souls and like

725
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: that they've they've they're so intertwined with the place and

726
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: the animal and what it provides for them that it's

727
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 1: a mindset that I've often and your book does a

728
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: great job of bringing folks into this. I've often yearned

729
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: to like to know more about UM and learn more

730
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: about I think from your perspective as a hunter, Yeah,

731
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: I think it might be interesting to you and to

732
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: your UM your listeners, because literally the whole culture is

733
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: built around hunting. It's literally UM. You know, there's no

734
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: other way to survive. They live on a very sort

735
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: of geographically unique UM peninsula on a very dry island,

736
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: so almost no streams or other um perennial water sources

737
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: are available to them. They can't really grow anything. But

738
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: what is unique about this bit of land is that

739
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: it sticks out into a deep water strait that channels

740
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: migrations of marine life between the Indian Ocean and the

741
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 1: Pacific Ocean. So a huge amount of um whales, sharks, marlin,

742
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: other large marine species all passed through there. And they

743
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: can just see this from the cliffs that they live on.

744
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: And so what they do to survive is just row

745
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: out in these ancient boats every day and try and

746
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: spear whatever happens to come to them. Yeah, and it's

747
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: it's like I said, that their culture is, that's that's

748
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: their life, that's the animals are a part of them.

749
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: They worship them, and they they've lived with them every

750
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: day and they consume their flesh and and I think

751
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 1: what makes this compelling is that it's you know, man

752
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: versus really is man versus beast when it gets down

753
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: to the actual storytelling. But in a greater sense, you'd

754
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: write a lot a lot of things, um, namely that

755
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: anthropologists that have studied the Lama larians would say that

756
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: there the most cooperative and generous people um that they've studied,

757
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: and that is has to do with hunting, because they

758
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: have to cooperate to take down these giant animals and

759
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: then they have to be generous in the way that

760
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: they share them with the rest of I believe what

761
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: people generally in the in the community. Um, so talk

762
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: about what you saw kind of what hunting had engendered

763
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: in in them. Well, so that's a really good point, um,

764
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: As I was, as we're sort of talking about before

765
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: the hunting has literally shaped the society, and so um

766
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: the law millarias are an extreme example of how hunting

767
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: has shaped a society. But essentially all hunter gatherer groups

768
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: are very collective. And that's because in the old days,

769
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: you know, to take down a large animal, you really

770
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: couldn't do it by yourself. You know, maybe you'd get

771
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: lucky and you know, get a perfect shot with your bow,

772
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: or maybe you'd land the perfect javelin throw, but in general,

773
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: you needed several dozen men to take down a bison

774
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: or to take down a whale or something like that.

775
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:33,959
Speaker 1: And you know, millennia of cooperation forged cultures that prey

776
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: placed an emphasis on both coordination during the hunt but

777
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 1: especially also after the hunt. So La millaria is divided

778
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: is about people, as you as you mentioned, that's divided

779
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: into about twenty different clans, and each one of those

780
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: clans has a boat, and the men of that clan

781
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: hunt with that boat. Now, they catch about twenty whales

782
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: a year um. But you know, given random to to

783
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: go chance, your boat might for one of the twenty

784
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 1: clans might catch two whales this year and zero whales

785
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: next year. Right, if you happen to hit your zero,

786
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: you're the year where you catch zero whales, You're in

787
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: deep trouble. Right, You're not gonna have anything to eat.

788
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: So the way that societies have evolved is to figure

789
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: out a way to basically force people to share all

790
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: the meat that they get. That way, it doesn't matter

791
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: if group A, group B, group C, group D get

792
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: to whale. It's all evenly spread. And this creates an

793
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: incredible amount of sharing in all parts of the society.

794
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: And so when anthropologists come in and sort of try

795
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 1: and measure this, they score very very highly on these tests.

796
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: Whereas comparatively Western groups, western industrial societies like ours, we

797
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: generally keep things for ourselves, they would generally give things away. Yeah. Yeah,

798
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: that's that's one of the points that you make early

799
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: in the book that kind of rings along as you

800
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: as as the stories are told. The other thing that's

801
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: that struck me about them their culture, um was how

802
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: much there they were. Like, really the core of it

803
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: I felt from reading the book was their connection to

804
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: the ancient, their ancient ancestors and the pea like the

805
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: not only their gods, but the ancient hunters and the

806
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 1: people that they felt they had to honor in ceremonial

807
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: ways and and you know, really just a lot of

808
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: their actions were maintained by like we have to make

809
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: the ancestors happy. We don't want to be punished because

810
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: we've we've not um looked back in time and remembered

811
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: what their teachings. So can you talk a little bit

812
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: about kind of their how the you know, how the

813
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: ancestral lineage just kind of passed along and how it

814
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: maybe is the center point of of how they remain

815
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 1: subsistence hunters going forward. So the law Millarians are not

816
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: like several other indigenous tribes which reject the outside world.

817
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: The law Millarius are very aware of what's in the

818
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: outside world. Um, the part of the island they live on,

819
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: this very isolated there's a number of about five thousand

820
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: foot mountains behind them covered in jungle, hard to get

821
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: over them. But on the other side, of the island,

822
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: there are modern towns. The Lamellarians themselves have started to

823
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: get electricity and all these other things. And it's a

824
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 1: conscious choice by the community that they make every year,

825
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: literally at a meeting where everyone sits down and decides

826
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: what are we going to allow into the community this year,

827
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,919
Speaker 1: that they're going to try and keep the ancient ways. Um.

828
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: And this is because they feel that this is the

829
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: best way to live. Um. There's there's spiritual reasons, as

830
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: you note. You know, they believe the whales are incarnations

831
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: of their ancestors and are sent to them as gifts, um.

832
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: And that if they were too uh to break with

833
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: the ancient traditions, they wouldn't get the whales and they

834
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: would starve. But they also believe that not everything that

835
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 1: is happening in the outside world is great for human happiness.

836
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: And this is something that a lot of anthropologists have

837
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: also um observed. You know, hunter gathering groups. Um, we're

838
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: called the original affluent society by many anthropologists. You know,

839
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: that's a little bit of a misnomer. Um. It's not.

840
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: Life is not perfect there by any means, but there

841
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: are certain advantages most hunder gatherer groups, including the Allamallarians

842
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: probably work about twenty hours a week. Um. They have

843
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: higher child mortality rates, but if you managed to get

844
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: into sort of the prime of your life, you're probably

845
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: significantly healthier then. Um. And they are actually report higher

846
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: levels of happiness than many people in industrial societies. So

847
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: while it's important not to romanticize them, and there are, um,

848
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: there are severe disadvantages to living without certain modern technologies

849
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: that the Allawmlarians would love to have. UM, there are

850
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: also advantages that they see and they want to keep those. Yeah.

851
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: I mean and then like you said, they've you say,

852
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: and he's saying the book that they've they've remained like

853
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: true to their legacy and the culture by limiting for

854
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: an influence by and worshiping their ancestors and making sure

855
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: that those things, you know, remain uh center. And I

856
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 1: thought that that like that the choices that they make

857
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: to live the way they do because they often these whalers,

858
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 1: they don't know what was there roughly three or so

859
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: hunters in in the community. I mean, they die, Yeah,

860
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: people get hurt and injured. Um. Um, they're doing a

861
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: very dangerous task and so UM, how do they weigh

862
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: those things? I mean, as you said, there's there's good

863
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 1: and bad with with them, but from living with them,

864
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: do they struggle with that every day like we could

865
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: go get cell phone or they do some of them

866
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: have cell phone as you said, but um, they have

867
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: to weigh that every day. There. Yeah, they're they're they're

868
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: very aware of it. Um. And you know, one of

869
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: the main people that I follow in the book is

870
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: a young man named John who's an apprentice whaler um.

871
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: And he both wants to become a true harpoon, but

872
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: that means, you know, committing himself forever essentially to this

873
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: way of life. But he's also interested in, you know,

874
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: what would life be like if you moved to the Capitol,

875
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 1: which is a very modern city. Um. You know, he

876
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: has the correct sense that life might be easier in

877
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: some ways, and so learning to negotiate that and balance

878
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: that is something that he and the Lamallarians will be

879
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: constantly doing. Um. And I I you know, I think

880
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: it's not that different than you in choosing to hunt,

881
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: which is, you know, something that our society increasingly is

882
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: moving away from. But it's you draw a lot of

883
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: value from that in some ways. You you know, I

884
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: don't know you do well personally, but you know you

885
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: may too be drawing value from the same things that

886
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: the Lamallarians are. Yeah. No, and that's before we hit recorded.

887
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to at least articulate that as best I could,

888
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: And in reading this you find yourself so far away

889
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: from there their actual life, but the struggle that they're

890
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: going through, like, at least philosophically, I can understand, you know,

891
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: because because they are pulled too. It is easier for

892
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: me to go to the grocery store and get a

893
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: turkey or go to fast food and get a turkey sandwich.

894
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 1: It's way harder but also more enriching to go and

895
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: kill a wild turkey in the woods and then feed

896
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: it to my family. So I have this, even though

897
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: mine is is a much light on the light on

898
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: its loafers than the lab of Larians. It's there, it

899
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, and in a smaller you know,

900
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: more first world since but it is there, you know, um,

901
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: And I'm sure it's there for them as well. Do

902
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: you When you look back in your time you say

903
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 1: you first went there in two thousand eleven, correct, um?

904
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: And over like six trips, seven trips, wasn't it? Probably so,

905
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: first one there in two thousand eleven, and then um

906
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,959
Speaker 1: when when I got the assignment to do the book,

907
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 1: which in two thousand and fourteen, and over the sort

908
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,439
Speaker 1: of the next three years, I spent them out four

909
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 1: months a year there UM and I visited since. But

910
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: the timeline that the book covers is really two thousand

911
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 1: and fourteen through two thousand and sixteen. Yeah, I mean

912
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: you live with them, You traded in their markets, you

913
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,919
Speaker 1: hunted with them, spearfish with them. You ate, you said

914
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: you ate manta brains. Oh you do, you do, do everything,

915
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 1: you gotta do it all. I appreciate the immersion, um.

916
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: You know, talk about that like just your personal experience

917
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: with it. I guess that informs the rest of this conversation,

918
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 1: Like how was it on a day to day basis?

919
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 1: Did you feel comfortable there? Did you feel a challenge?

920
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you learned their language, which which I think

921
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: is astonishing. But to talk about that day to day

922
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: life while you spent time there, well, I I felt

923
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: incredibly lucky. They were extremely generous. Um. I slept at

924
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: in the home of one of the leaders of the

925
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 1: tribe UM and everyone was incredibly welcoming and it was. Uh.

926
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: They deserves so much credit for being participants in the

927
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: book and for helping tell the story in the right way. Um.

928
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 1: You know, I had I already had at that point.

929
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: By the time that I landed there, I already had

930
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 1: maybe two years of experience living in Indonesia. I spoke

931
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: the national language fluently. UM. I grew up doing a

932
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: lot of backpacking and and living in in um in,

933
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, in in rougher conditions, and so it was

934
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 1: not it was it was a pleasure to get to

935
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: go with them and just to be able to do

936
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: everything with them. Um, whether it was from going on

937
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: dozens of whale hunts to helping them build boats. Um,

938
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,720
Speaker 1: they're as much as possible. I tried to adapt myself.

939
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I wasn't always a hundred persent u to.

940
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 1: I'm definitely a grew up in the mountains, and I

941
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: definitely got seasick much easier than they did, which is

942
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 1: something that they thought was hilarious. They had a word

943
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: for it, didn't they. Oh yeah, there was a feeding

944
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: the fishes, There is a they got. They got this

945
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: idea that Um, one time, after I threw up a

946
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,320
Speaker 1: bunch of whales appeared soon after, so that the joke became,

947
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, why don't why don't you bait the fishes

948
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: dug and you can get Yeah. Um, you you know

949
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: what was it like being around these I mean, these

950
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,760
Speaker 1: are relatively small boats, much smaller than than the animals

951
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: that were swimming beneath them that they were trying to kill. Um.

952
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: I imagine what was the name when you became actual

953
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: uh a leader on one of the boats. Because I

954
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: know each tribe has a boat, but there was like

955
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: a lama fla. I was never a lama, but I

956
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: was purely an observer. I was not holding any hard pit. Yeah,

957
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: but to become a lama file was to be like

958
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: held up in the tribe. And then you see that

959
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: a lot of Native American lore and some different things

960
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: throughout hunting history that that that happened. Um, when you're

961
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: out doing that, I mean, and you tell the story

962
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: of a lot of these guys. They've a whale, they

963
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 1: see a whale from the cliffs, they go, they kiss

964
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: their wife and hugged their you know, hugged their baby

965
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: and run out to go, you know, to a very

966
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: dangerous um hunt. How did you see just from person

967
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: to person that affecting these Lambi fi, the people that

968
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: were that were leaders and who had had literally like

969
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: the way to the world in their backs, because if

970
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,959
Speaker 1: they don't kill a whale, nobody eats. If they don't,

971
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: if they die, their whole family is kind of scattered

972
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: to the community. UM. So talking about that little piece

973
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: of you know, of what you saw, it's a it's

974
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: a huge responsibility, as you know, and it really weighs

975
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: on them. Um. You know, sometimes um things would go

976
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: wrong without without it being really their fault. You know,

977
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: they might land a great hit and it might embed

978
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:51,760
Speaker 1: and then the whale would use its tail to snap

979
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: the rope and there's not not much they could do

980
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: about it. But because of the lamallarious belief system, in

981
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: which um the outcome of the hunt is basically determined

982
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 1: by the ancestors whom they worship, that might be a

983
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: sign that the Lama file had committed some sort of

984
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 1: spiritual infraction. So I really really admired the Lama fun.

985
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: Not only did they have to do this incredibly difficult

986
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: and skillful and dangerous physical task, but they really were

987
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 1: also looked at as moral leaders of the community and

988
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: really had to try and set an example for how

989
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,720
Speaker 1: they acted, um and so that their cruise could follow

990
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: that and that everyone could be worthy of actually getting

991
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: the whales. Yeah, and that's and other cultures and and

992
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 1: other hunting cultures. We see that UM. I had a

993
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 1: gentleman on our podcast named Dushan's Mattana and he is

994
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: from originally from um Czechoslovakia, and he talks about this

995
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: idea of the hunters having to choose right. You have

996
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: to be the most intelligent, the most thoughtful, because you

997
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 1: have to choose which animal dies and which lives. You

998
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 1: have to choose what's safe and what's dangerous, and you

999
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: have to bring them them that stuff back to your

1000
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: family and and and you see that in this I mean,

1001
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: you see that these these guys are going to do

1002
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: a very dangerous thing, sometimes over very long periods of time.

1003
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: UM and the one of them, I guess one of

1004
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: the first stories of the books, some of the characters

1005
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: go out, they're hunting whales. They get separated and they

1006
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm sure if it's what story I'm

1007
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of, but they get picked up by they

1008
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: have to get separated, and they get one of them

1009
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: gets picked up by a tour ship and returned, and

1010
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 1: the other others come back, and it's one of the

1011
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 1: first times you know, they had that. You talk about

1012
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: the boats have souls, you don't. They didn't want to.

1013
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: They would rather die than see these boats sink. And

1014
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: the ropes have some role to play in the ceremonial sense,

1015
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: in the religious sense. Um. It's very interesting that connection.

1016
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: How did you how did you come to learn about it?

1017
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: Because especially with the language barrier, how they see like

1018
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: the function of this these things in the hunt. Well,

1019
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: they're very open about it. You know, this is something

1020
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 1: that they would discuss directly. UM. And one of the

1021
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: real joys of getting to be there was I already

1022
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: spoke fluently Bahasa Indonesia, which is the UH national language.

1023
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,399
Speaker 1: Everyone learns it so that way all the groups of

1024
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: you know, all the thousands of different islands can communicate.

1025
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: But I also try to teach myself the language that's

1026
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: just in lamal Era, this sort of tiny language, and

1027
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 1: that had so many very specific spiritual words and so

1028
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: many things that really weren't able to be described in

1029
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 1: anything but their language. UM. And the amount of nuance

1030
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: that you can capture in the language that specifically built

1031
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 1: for something like describing the spirituality the hunt, where even

1032
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 1: this the hunt itself is much much more nuanced than

1033
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: we can in another language. So for example, um, you know,

1034
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: the saying is that the Inuit have you know, fifty

1035
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: words for snow or whatever it is. You know, they

1036
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 1: have dozens of different words for hart pooning. They have

1037
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 1: specific words for you know, strike to the left of

1038
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 1: the thing, or you know, they even have a word

1039
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: or strike to the right, or you know, the harpoon

1040
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: went under, the harpoon bounced off where you know, they

1041
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: even have a word specifically for when you throw a

1042
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: harpoon and it goes right between the horns of our

1043
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: mant array, you know, just barely missing. Um. So you know,

1044
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: I think that uh, you know, they were just incredibly

1045
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: generous in terms of taking the time to try and

1046
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: teach me these things. They really wanted it to be known.

1047
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: They're very proud of their culture, as they should be,

1048
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: and it's it's richness. And in fact, part of the

1049
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: reason they agreed to do the book is because they

1050
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 1: wanted people to know about their cultures. That correct. Yeah,

1051
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: So as the outside world has increasingly sort of encroached

1052
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: on their island. Um, they have gotten the sense that

1053
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 1: partially true, partially untrue perhaps, but they have gotten the

1054
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: sense that there are elements in the outside world that

1055
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: do not want them to continue hunting animals that some

1056
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: of which are endangered. Um. Sprm whales are not endangered.

1057
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: Their hunt probably you know, they take maybe twenty a year.

1058
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: Their hunt does not endangered the global populations. Yeah, but

1059
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: they do hunt other animals such as manta raise, which

1060
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: are correctly considered endangered. And whow you know, it would

1061
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 1: be hard for a group that's small to damage you know,

1062
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 1: global populations. Um. You know, conservationists have come after them

1063
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: for threatening local populations and that includes one like the

1064
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: Nature Conservancy and other groups have they have legislation currently

1065
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: going or at some point they had legislation going down there.

1066
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 1: There have been various attempts over the years to try

1067
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: and legislate it within the Indonesian government. That. Um, then

1068
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: that the lama llarians cannot do x or y or

1069
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 1: z and they're and they're generally exempt from a lot

1070
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: of laws just from a subsistence hunter. You know, standpoint

1071
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: that is that correct? Right? So under the International Convention

1072
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: for the regulation on whaling um, which Indonesia is not

1073
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: a signature signatory too, but if they were, the lam

1074
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: Larians would probably have a special exemption allowing them to

1075
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: do what they do because it truly is a subsistence.

1076
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: They get most of their calories from the hunt for

1077
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: the whole community. They do not hunt gratuitously, um, and

1078
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: they do it the old fashioned way. Um, they're not

1079
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: using Japanese harpoon bombs and stuff. UM. Indonesian law law

1080
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: is a very complex legal thing that we're probably better one.

1081
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: But you know a lot of countries like this have

1082
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: sort of two sets of laws which are contradictory, one

1083
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: of which is um, you know that indigenous groups can

1084
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: continue subsistence at activities, but also that um, they have

1085
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: modern conservation laws. And in Indonesia, the primacy which one

1086
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: is has you know, has primacy, has not been tested

1087
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: in court yet. So yeah, that's it's interesting, and they

1088
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: are aware. I think that kind of leads me to

1089
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: their awareness of the of the struggle. And you note

1090
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 1: in the book that I think it's that you say,

1091
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 1: since like the sixteenth century European you know, movement to

1092
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: take over and kind of similarly modernized in that sense.

1093
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: Other cultures we've seen, we've half the number of cultures

1094
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: that we have in this world. We've seen this this

1095
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: designation of of especially these types of culture subsistence cultures

1096
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: over the years, and that has changed who we are

1097
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 1: as humans. Um And and really what the Llama Laryans

1098
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: can do is help us look back to what are

1099
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:44,439
Speaker 1: we now? What were we? What are we becoming? Um?

1100
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: That's a that's a entangled ideological mess, but it's there,

1101
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 1: and you present it in the book, I think present it. Well. Yeah, well,

1102
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: you know, so as you know, since the sixteenth century,

1103
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: you know, really, since European powers began expanding across the world,

1104
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: the actual literal number of cultures has just diminished by

1105
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 1: an incredible amount. UM. So, when you know, the Portuguese

1106
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 1: first started sailing out towards the Indian Ocean, about a

1107
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: third of the world at that point was still covered

1108
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 1: by hunter gatherer groups, and those groups were not organized

1109
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: by kingdom or empire. Each one was its own unique

1110
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 1: you know band. You know, probably in with about a

1111
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: hundred people or so, with a unique culture, a unique language,

1112
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: a unique way of surviving in relation to their environment.

1113
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: And as you know, as m empires have grown as uh,

1114
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 1: you know, colonial empires have turned into modern nation states,

1115
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: and an industrial way of life has spread across the

1116
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: world and you know now occupies the vast majority of it.

1117
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 1: The number of these hunter gatherer groups has plummeted until

1118
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: they're almost gone. And the literally the number of different

1119
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 1: ways to live not just hunter gatherer, but as swidden

1120
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: farmers or herders or just sort of what anthropologists count

1121
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, roughly as cultures has diminished from originally from

1122
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand to about seven thousand, and we're expected

1123
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 1: to be you know, down to you know, one thousand

1124
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: or so within fifty years. Um. So, really one thing

1125
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 1: that the book is about is, you know, what does

1126
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 1: it mean for this great diminishment of the way different

1127
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: ways to be human? What does it What does it

1128
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: mean that we're losing all of these things? Um? And

1129
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 1: I think you know, one of the unique things about

1130
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 1: the law Malarrans is they're aware of this predicament and

1131
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: they're actively working against it. Many groups do not have

1132
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 1: the resources, um or the ability to do what the

1133
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 1: law Malarians have done, and so the law Molarrans are

1134
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: very actively trying to choose the good out of the

1135
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: modern world and sort of rejected bad. But it will

1136
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: be an ongoing struggle for as long as they continue

1137
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: to exist. Yeah, I mean they're in they're in a

1138
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: very unique position to kind of be on and you know,

1139
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: they're not the last group standing, but they're one of

1140
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: them to be able to to look into the modern world,

1141
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: the thing that has the potential to erase their way

1142
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: of life and see the positives of it. Of course,

1143
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: you say in the book, and I think this is

1144
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 1: all subsistence cultures. Like generationally, the more the more of

1145
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: the generations progress, the more there is more need to

1146
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 1: have a connection with that modern world. And that's like

1147
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 1: ultimately the thing that challenges these cultures the most is

1148
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 1: that as these new generations come forward, they're stepping into

1149
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 1: a world where all they have to do is, you know,

1150
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: go across over the mountains, was thirty miles to the

1151
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 1: town and they can live very modern and comfortable life

1152
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 1: and it's hard to choose otherwise. Um well, I think,

1153
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of it for you know,

1154
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: both the youth of the Lamillarians and other groups like

1155
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: this is coming. The challenges coming to see the worth

1156
01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: of their way of life. Um. And you know, so

1157
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 1: I think that of the young men that I follow

1158
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 1: in the book and sort of follow their development over

1159
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 1: three years, you know, most of them end up, you know,

1160
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 1: deciding that this is there's really worthwhile things. And I

1161
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 1: think that that's a decision that we all make, you know,

1162
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 1: as hunters. You you all, you know, are deciding to

1163
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 1: do it very much older and you know, in so

1164
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 1: much ways some ways much more honorable and ancient way

1165
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 1: of getting your food as well. And it's seeing what's

1166
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 1: worthwhile in these you know, perhaps less easier, less uh,

1167
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, some you know, quick ways than just going

1168
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 1: to the grocery store, but that there's a huge amount

1169
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 1: of worth in these practices that really connect us both

1170
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: to the natural, to the environment, but also who you know,

1171
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: humans have been for tens of thousands of years. Yeah,

1172
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 1: And I think you say it well in the book

1173
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,320
Speaker 1: that while we see modernity this progress, folks like the

1174
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 1: Lama Larians might they see it as kind of a

1175
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: you know, and a racing of of who they are

1176
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 1: and what they do, you know. And we've we always

1177
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 1: have viewed technology and modernity and the move to be

1178
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 1: more progressive as is this thing we have to do.

1179
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: It's almost like some weird manifest destiny that we hold

1180
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:16,439
Speaker 1: where I mean, I think this book accurately shapes why

1181
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 1: that's not all good and if we lose these cultures,

1182
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: we lost ourselves and in a in a big time way.

1183
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, in the in the relatively

1184
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 1: short time we have to discuss the book, I think

1185
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 1: that's the thing that I that I'm most impacted by.

1186
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 1: The stories kind of get you there. And I think

1187
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: hopefully everybody goes goes and gets the Last Whalers and

1188
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 1: reads it. But that's what I came out of it with,

1189
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: you know. And and it may be like feeble to

1190
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: try to compare it to my current state, but because

1191
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: I drive a car and and live in a nice

1192
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: house with air conditioning things like that, but it certainly

1193
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: was impactful for me. Well, thank you, thank you for

1194
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 1: the kind words, and and you know, to be honest,

1195
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it's it's wrong to compare it to

1196
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: our lives here. You know. I think one thing that

1197
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 1: the Loam lards you in a very unique way is

1198
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: that they're conscious of that decision between you know, a

1199
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer way of life and an industrialized way of life.

1200
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 1: This is they know that this is a choice. Um,

1201
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: most of us in you know, American society don't think

1202
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: of it as a choice. And to be honest, none

1203
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: of us are going to truly go back to a

1204
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer way of life. But we can do little

1205
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: things if we so choose to do, and one of

1206
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: those is hunting. Yeah. Yeah, did did any of this

1207
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: kind of of change the way you look that? You know,

1208
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: what was your going into it? We talked about you

1209
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 1: grew up in in the Inner Mountain West Salt Lake

1210
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 1: City and then you know, when I'll go through your

1211
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: whole upbringing. But how much did you think about hunting

1212
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:47,160
Speaker 1: yourself before and then after? How did you think of it?

1213
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: Was there if you're not doing it? Was there a

1214
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 1: bitter appreciation for it? Or have you ever considered that

1215
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 1: in this in this journey for you? Because I know

1216
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 1: it's a long time. You know, I don't. I'm not

1217
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: a hunter to the extent that you guys are. I

1218
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 1: have hunted them, but I don't. I think it made

1219
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:11,040
Speaker 1: me much more greatly appreciate what a fundamental act hunting

1220
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 1: can be. Um. You know, I think that we as

1221
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 1: a society in America have lost what spiritual aspects there

1222
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 1: can be. We look at it at its purely as

1223
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 1: exploitative and in certain not in all parts of America,

1224
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 1: but in many parts. And I think that, um, you know,

1225
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 1: for both American hunters that I know and also for

1226
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 1: the lawmillarias, people truly draw a spiritual sustenance from it.

1227
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: And I think that that that has been something that

1228
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 1: that's very profoundly. That's a very great way to put it.

1229
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 1: I think most of the modern hunters in the States

1230
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 1: and elsewhere I've traveled to I talked to have a

1231
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 1: trouble articulating that sustenance, like what it is that's feeding them.

1232
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 1: And I think by reading this book and learning about

1233
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 1: this these people, maybe they'll find a little bit of

1234
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 1: that and be to explain a little bit of why

1235
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 1: it is they feel so enriched by this activity and

1236
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: why is it they they want to You know, you'll

1237
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 1: find a lot of people in our modern hunting community

1238
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 1: that are evangelists for hunting one because it's like you've

1239
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 1: You've mentioned it's kind of shrinking. The community of people

1240
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: who do it is shrinking, but too because they feel

1241
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: so bettered by the activity that they feel the need

1242
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 1: to go and spread that idea to people. Um, did

1243
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: the Lama larons ever feel that liked? What did it

1244
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 1: feel inslur to them? Like they wanted just to to

1245
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:38,639
Speaker 1: remain with their communities. That they never wanted to spread

1246
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 1: their life, livelihoods, and lifestyle and culture to other people's.

1247
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 1: They just you know, they wanted it to be theirs. Yeah,

1248
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:47,600
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that they've ever had the

1249
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 1: will be all idea of going and converting Come on you, Yeah,

1250
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 1: this corn sucks, but you know, going sort of going

1251
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 1: back to to that thing you were saying about the spirituality.

1252
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:05,679
Speaker 1: You know, I think that for them and in sort

1253
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 1: of a broad in general sense, you know what hunting does,

1254
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: is it it it gives them a very holistic view

1255
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: of the world. You know, this is literally in their

1256
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 1: spiritual value that you know, any small action by the

1257
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 1: lamafof it's you know, against the moral code of the ancestors.

1258
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 1: You know, ripples out in a way that causes failure,

1259
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 1: causes bad things. And the actions of the hunter are

1260
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:29,799
Speaker 1: connected to the coming of the whales, and the hunter's

1261
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 1: spirit is connected to the boat, which is connected to

1262
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:34,759
Speaker 1: the whales, and the whales are connected to the spirit

1263
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 1: of the sun and the sea and everything else. And

1264
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:40,599
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, without trying to put any

1265
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 1: specific spiritual gloss on you know, what might um, what

1266
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 1: hunter American hunters might be feeling is But at least

1267
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,240
Speaker 1: one thing that I have felt when I have hunted

1268
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 1: has just been, you know, the greater connection. You know,

1269
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 1: whether it's through the deer or the duck or you know,

1270
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:00,120
Speaker 1: whatever it is, I've hunted to that greater web of

1271
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 1: both you know, the natural world, but also you know

1272
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:07,240
Speaker 1: the spiritual world that and messages it. And I think

1273
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:11,679
Speaker 1: that that echoes across cultures and across people's no matter

1274
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 1: where it is in the world. Yeah, for sure. I

1275
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 1: also if they wanted to make sure we talked about

1276
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 1: how badass that the Llama larans were, because He's like,

1277
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 1: there's there's they're just like it. It is. I feel like,

1278
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 1: as a journalist you want to get into like the

1279
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 1: real stories, but as if I was just a real

1280
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:32,400
Speaker 1: sensationalist digital journals, so I'll be like tribe of whalers

1281
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 1: pulls tiger sharks out of the water, beats him on

1282
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:36,760
Speaker 1: head with the club, or you know, jumps on the

1283
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:39,679
Speaker 1: back of a sperm whale and rides it down, stabbing

1284
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 1: and stabbing it in its head with a bamboo spear. Um.

1285
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,400
Speaker 1: Just for those folks who just want to hear what

1286
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 1: that's like to see and be a part of what

1287
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 1: you give a you know a couple of stories where

1288
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 1: that left you kind of taken aback when you first

1289
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:56,800
Speaker 1: experienced some of the some of the things that are

1290
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,040
Speaker 1: fairly normal to their culture. But the lamba fa, you know,

1291
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 1: these folks are badass. This man for for lack of

1292
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,560
Speaker 1: a better term, it's I mean, it really is impressive.

1293
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:10,600
Speaker 1: How for lack of a better word, how soft or

1294
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 1: unskilled we've gotten. You know, even even someone like you

1295
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 1: or my you or me who spends a fair time

1296
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 1: out in the wilderness, you know who, I think, because

1297
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 1: fairly decent hand eye coordination and so on and so forth,

1298
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:24,759
Speaker 1: were nothing compared to people who do it for a living,

1299
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 1: for real, who are physically active for their livelihood every

1300
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 1: second of every day. Um. I remember going through the

1301
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 1: jungle with a young man, maybe twelve or thirteen, who

1302
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 1: is going to bring me to this spot, um, this

1303
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:41,720
Speaker 1: sort of the sacred whale stone and uh, he was

1304
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: kept picking up rocks and just throwing them into trees.

1305
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:48,559
Speaker 1: At least that's how it appeared to me at first. Um,

1306
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 1: and then I realized he was throwing them at birds,

1307
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 1: and I was like, there's no possible way he can

1308
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 1: hit it, but you know, I was sort of like

1309
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 1: humoring him. And then like then I sort of realized, no,

1310
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:04,840
Speaker 1: we're getting extraordinarily close every time, and so like the

1311
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:09,520
Speaker 1: ability just by practicing it, whether whether you're a Lamelaian

1312
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:11,600
Speaker 1: youth who just wants to eat a jungle bird, or

1313
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 1: you know Indian American Indian youths who would shoot grasshoppers

1314
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 1: with um bows and arrows as their training. You do

1315
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:25,280
Speaker 1: this for your livelihood and you become very good at it.

1316
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 1: And they're not adrenaline junkies. You know. One other thing

1317
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 1: about a hunt is that this isn't something they're doing,

1318
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 1: you know, once a month, and you know they can,

1319
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, perhaps accept a little risk. They have to

1320
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 1: have this thing be safe enough to do every day. UM,

1321
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 1: So while it can look you know, spectacular, they tried

1322
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 1: to be very very careful in terms of walking the line.

1323
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 1: So you know, while they'll do incredible things, like you know,

1324
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:57,799
Speaker 1: I saw them. You know, as as you mentioned, dragon

1325
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 1: mako shark onto into a bow while it was alive

1326
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:02,960
Speaker 1: because it was you know, it was damaging the boords

1327
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:05,240
Speaker 1: on the bottom and then you know, just cut its

1328
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:13,919
Speaker 1: cut its spinal cord um. You know, it's a carefully

1329
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 1: weighed action. And the men are you know, have coordinate,

1330
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, coordinate and work together. Um. And it's something

1331
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:23,880
Speaker 1: that they've developed over you know, a lifetime. Yeah, it's

1332
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 1: it's it's compelling to read, but you could feel that

1333
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:30,080
Speaker 1: that it's this is not something They're not doing this

1334
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 1: for adrenaline. They're not doing this too to you know,

1335
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 1: show off. I mean, they've once have become a lomifi.

1336
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 1: They've already been kind of exalted in the community, and

1337
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:39,800
Speaker 1: that's how they've gotten there. But they've only gotten there

1338
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:42,519
Speaker 1: by being safe, efficient and able to do the job

1339
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 1: that they need to do. And so it's clear that

1340
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 1: that that that's that's the activity. It's a more cogent

1341
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:52,000
Speaker 1: activity than than you would imagine it to be. That

1342
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 1: just seems insane. Like to watch someone pull a mako

1343
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:59,679
Speaker 1: shark into a relatively small boat, um, small wooden craft,

1344
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:04,720
Speaker 1: and I was on it, like I'm like well, let's

1345
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:09,720
Speaker 1: leave it in the water. It's fine. Um. That's you know,

1346
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:14,840
Speaker 1: incredibly interesting in regards to butchering these animals. That's something

1347
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:17,760
Speaker 1: that it was interesting to me, and it's interesting to me.

1348
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 1: And when it when it comes to a sperm wall,

1349
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 1: how did they go about? Because I've been around folks

1350
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:24,519
Speaker 1: in Africa who butcher an elephant, and the you know,

1351
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:27,760
Speaker 1: in the indigenous folks there will like walk right through

1352
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,679
Speaker 1: the gut pile and take a you know, a rusty

1353
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 1: blade and chop the seeing videos and Washington person people

1354
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 1: just chopping up elephant parts and taking hunks. How does it?

1355
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:40,920
Speaker 1: How does that happen in in the long learning culture.

1356
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:44,640
Speaker 1: I think that you get used to if you if

1357
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 1: you're hunted and hunt for a living, you get used

1358
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 1: to butchering. So usually by the time they drag a

1359
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 1: whale back, it's usually late in the afternoon and so

1360
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 1: they don't start until the next day. So the kids

1361
01:14:57,840 --> 01:14:59,639
Speaker 1: go out and play on it like a giant water

1362
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:01,960
Speaker 1: slide it or like you know King of the Mountains,

1363
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 1: and then you know, when the tide does come up

1364
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 1: and and you know, they're able to sort of drag

1365
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:07,880
Speaker 1: it in, you know, as it floats on the tide

1366
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: up onto the beach. Um M. You know, it's just

1367
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 1: a normal part of everyday life. It's a two day

1368
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 1: it's usually about two days to really strip down of

1369
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:22,519
Speaker 1: you know a decent sized whale. Um. And it's you know,

1370
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 1: hundreds of people, you know, um going at it with

1371
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: these very specialized flintsing knives which you know are very

1372
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 1: sharp and very long, so we can get through the

1373
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 1: foot thick blubber um. And it's it's it's uh, it's

1374
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:38,840
Speaker 1: a it is a bloody task, um. But it also

1375
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: again it's it's one that has a great meaning and

1376
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 1: joy for them. You know, they look at it as

1377
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:48,680
Speaker 1: the ancestors have given them this gift. Um. It's a

1378
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:52,919
Speaker 1: reward for following the ancestors way. And the most important

1379
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:56,160
Speaker 1: thing in some ways is that they're sharing it out. Um.

1380
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,120
Speaker 1: So you know that ritual active division we talked about

1381
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:02,400
Speaker 1: before of you know, making sure that you know, basically

1382
01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 1: everyone gets to peace, even if they're not sort of

1383
01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:08,439
Speaker 1: in the core group that stabbed actually stabbed. It is

1384
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 1: a time when those bonds get forged and you know,

1385
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:20,920
Speaker 1: ratified and you know, reinforced between these different groups. Really

1386
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 1: interesting means do. They use the blubber and they use

1387
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 1: the teeth that they do everything literally everything. Um uh.

1388
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: They they are probably one of the last groups in

1389
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:34,200
Speaker 1: the world to still use whale oil. You know, it

1390
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:37,400
Speaker 1: can be used for cooking, for medicine, for lamps. They

1391
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 1: still keep whale oil lamps. Um. And the main thing

1392
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 1: that happens with the meat is that they cut it

1393
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 1: into you know, about six in strips and dry it

1394
01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 1: and that becomes the currency for their part of the island.

1395
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 1: So um. Over the centuries, they have developed a very

1396
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:58,559
Speaker 1: unique set of relationships with the farming tribes that live

1397
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 1: further up the volcano, which do have access to water

1398
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:05,200
Speaker 1: but and can grow crops but don't really have access

1399
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 1: to protein. So basically the way the exchange has always

1400
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 1: gone is the lamelarians will get protein from the sea,

1401
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:15,600
Speaker 1: whereas the hunt where the farming tribes will get um

1402
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:20,240
Speaker 1: carbohydrates from the mountains. And um. They still have a

1403
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:23,839
Speaker 1: barter market in which you know, one strip of jerky

1404
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:26,479
Speaker 1: is worth a dozen bananas or a kilogram of rice.

1405
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 1: And that is for the most part how they get

1406
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:34,760
Speaker 1: their food. Still. Woh, that's that's amazing. And I do

1407
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 1: think you tell of of you know, in the book

1408
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:40,560
Speaker 1: of holding up those oil lamps, And that's what struck me.

1409
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:42,559
Speaker 1: I think that's they've got to be using whale oil

1410
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:46,719
Speaker 1: and they've got to be, um, just a subsistance unders

1411
01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 1: Traditionally throughout all cultures have used every part of the

1412
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 1: thing that they're killing. So that's interesting. What are they

1413
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:56,720
Speaker 1: I know that by the end of your journey with them,

1414
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:59,639
Speaker 1: they were wearing like modern textiles and shirts and clothes.

1415
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:02,640
Speaker 1: But what you know, the books opens up in the

1416
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 1: early nineties with with a really wholly different tribe and

1417
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 1: the community than it is today. What did they know?

1418
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:13,400
Speaker 1: What do they wear traditionally? How did they dress? Um?

1419
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:17,560
Speaker 1: How they look? If you could describe that. So Lamalira

1420
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 1: has undergone a huge amount of change in the last generation. Um. Really,

1421
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:27,639
Speaker 1: up until about two thousand, UM things were going very

1422
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:32,200
Speaker 1: similarly to how they basically always been going. Um. They

1423
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 1: they were for the most part purposely rejecting outboard engines. UM.

1424
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: They you know, had a very Yeah they had a

1425
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 1: small generator for emergency using to use a little bit

1426
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 1: of electricity, but basically weren't doing that. But since then, um,

1427
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:50,559
Speaker 1: you know, a small road has been built over the mountain,

1428
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 1: and the tribe UM has progressively loosened its restrictions. UM.

1429
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:58,519
Speaker 1: And so when we were sort of talking about before

1430
01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: that choice of you know, how much of the outside

1431
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:03,200
Speaker 1: world you let in and how much of the ancient

1432
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 1: traditions you preserve, that's been a sliding choice that's happened,

1433
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:10,519
Speaker 1: you know, over the last I guess nineteen years. And

1434
01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:13,640
Speaker 1: you know, the perfect example of this would be the

1435
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:17,360
Speaker 1: outboard engines. UM. They've known about them since the nineteen seventies.

1436
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:21,400
Speaker 1: The United Nations Food and Agricultural Project tried to give them,

1437
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 1: give them these, you know, incredibly expensive things that all

1438
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:27,400
Speaker 1: the other tribes in the area wanted, and they rejected

1439
01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 1: them because they felt it would be against against the

1440
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 1: ancestors wishes. But you know, eventually they needed one to

1441
01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:37,599
Speaker 1: move one of their priests up and down the coast,

1442
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:40,360
Speaker 1: which which at that point didn't have a road, so

1443
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 1: that the you know, this old guy could get from

1444
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 1: one village to the next and preach. And then you know,

1445
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:47,800
Speaker 1: once they got one, they sort of realized, oh, you know,

1446
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: this is really good for certain things, you know, when

1447
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:52,479
Speaker 1: we need to go around the island rather than climbing

1448
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:55,160
Speaker 1: up over these mountains and get someone to the hospital.

1449
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:57,360
Speaker 1: You know, let's let's have one or two of them

1450
01:19:57,360 --> 01:19:59,080
Speaker 1: in here. Yeah, you sound sort of like the rescue

1451
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:03,160
Speaker 1: boats that would out. Yeah, and then you know, so

1452
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:06,360
Speaker 1: then you know, then that's okay. And then you know,

1453
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:09,719
Speaker 1: then some you know, sort of clever their version of lawyers,

1454
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 1: you know, decides, you know, like, well, you know it's

1455
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 1: not legal to hunt the whales with these outboard engines,

1456
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:17,880
Speaker 1: but what if we hunt the shark over here, you know,

1457
01:20:17,920 --> 01:20:20,280
Speaker 1: and you push the boundaries and okay, eventually it's all right,

1458
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 1: we can hunt these sharks, or we can hunt these

1459
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:24,519
Speaker 1: you know, small man to raise, but the whales are

1460
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:26,759
Speaker 1: not going to be allowed. They can't be these motors

1461
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:29,760
Speaker 1: can't be involved in hunting the whales at all. And

1462
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 1: then someone's like, um, so I was like, oh, well,

1463
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 1: what if we make a special kind of boat and

1464
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 1: attach a separate kind of boat, not not the whale

1465
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 1: hunting boat, but a separate kind of boat, and attach

1466
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:43,000
Speaker 1: the little engine to it, and then attach a rope

1467
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:46,880
Speaker 1: from the little boat to the big ancient whaling boat

1468
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:48,800
Speaker 1: and use it, use it just to drag them home.

1469
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 1: You know, it takes you know, we're carrying that no

1470
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:53,120
Speaker 1: one wants to roll home sixty tons of meat, so

1471
01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 1: you can, you know, and then eventually that's gets approved,

1472
01:20:55,720 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 1: so you can see how um you know this is

1473
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:03,720
Speaker 1: they have every right to make whatever decisions they want

1474
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 1: about their future, but still to this point they still

1475
01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:09,519
Speaker 1: draw a hard line. Only the ancient whaling boats are

1476
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:12,320
Speaker 1: allowed to go after the sperm whale the end of

1477
01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 1: the hunt. That's always what it's going to be. And

1478
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:20,600
Speaker 1: so um, you know this is this is the negotiation

1479
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:23,439
Speaker 1: of modernity, of trying to figure out what's good that

1480
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:26,200
Speaker 1: you're going to pick up and what's not. Um. And

1481
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:29,679
Speaker 1: I think it's a sort of the something that we're

1482
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:32,120
Speaker 1: all doing in our own way. Yeah, it's it's you

1483
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:34,320
Speaker 1: know what I've I've noticed. I have a two and

1484
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:37,519
Speaker 1: a half year old son, and I've noticed recently that

1485
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 1: Disney really likes this idea. Like there's a film called

1486
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:45,200
Speaker 1: what They Love It for Summer. I Like, there's a

1487
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 1: film called Mwana or it's a young Hawaiian girl that's

1488
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 1: not supposed to go past the reef and she has

1489
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:52,639
Speaker 1: to go. Her father's like this island is what we need,

1490
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:54,639
Speaker 1: don't go past the reef, and she wants this like

1491
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:57,880
Speaker 1: to go exploring, and it's it's this that's it really

1492
01:21:57,880 --> 01:21:59,960
Speaker 1: is analogous to what you're talking about. And there's another

1493
01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 1: movie called Coco where the family is shoemakers and they

1494
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:06,439
Speaker 1: don't play music, and this kid's like trying to buck

1495
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:08,599
Speaker 1: the tide of the traditional way that his family acts

1496
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,360
Speaker 1: and he wants to go play music in the square.

1497
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 1: So there's something in that, this idea, this this through

1498
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:18,080
Speaker 1: line in our lives that like there's there's this thing

1499
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:21,880
Speaker 1: we must honor, but there's is the progressive nature of

1500
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 1: our own like childish behaviors, but our own you know,

1501
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:27,639
Speaker 1: new generations that want to go and explore new ideas.

1502
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:29,639
Speaker 1: And so I found that in this book as well.

1503
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:32,280
Speaker 1: It's like, this is a real life version of For

1504
01:22:32,320 --> 01:22:35,240
Speaker 1: whatever reason, Disney has taken that up or Pixar, who

1505
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:37,240
Speaker 1: was making these movies, he's kind of picked up on

1506
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 1: that um in several ways recently. So it's interesting and

1507
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:42,680
Speaker 1: then you're a person write about it, well, I think

1508
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:48,440
Speaker 1: it's a very fundamental tension in the modern world. Um.

1509
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: You know, technological changes happening much faster than ever before.

1510
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:57,800
Speaker 1: Globalization is um is connecting the world and connecting these

1511
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:02,120
Speaker 1: groups that you know, we're originally buffer by distance and geography,

1512
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:08,800
Speaker 1: and so I think that that dynamic between future and

1513
01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 1: past is something that that all of us are going

1514
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,120
Speaker 1: to have to deal with more and more often. And

1515
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 1: I think it's also important. A lot of times people

1516
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:19,200
Speaker 1: look at groups like the La Millarians or other you know,

1517
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:23,880
Speaker 1: other hunter gatherer tribes as sort of frozen in the

1518
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:26,760
Speaker 1: Stone Age or something, or I sort of throwbacks, and

1519
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:30,160
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's true. Um, you know, they're

1520
01:23:30,200 --> 01:23:34,759
Speaker 1: they're just as contemporary um cultures as we are human beings.

1521
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:38,680
Speaker 1: They have just chosen, and you know, most of them

1522
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 1: have just chosen in a conscious way to continue this

1523
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:44,519
Speaker 1: way of living. It doesn't mean that it's any more

1524
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:48,080
Speaker 1: primitive or anymore backwards, or any of these other adjectives

1525
01:23:48,120 --> 01:23:52,080
Speaker 1: that we apply to it. Um, it's just as contemporaneous

1526
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:58,240
Speaker 1: as ours and we sort of ah and the their choices,

1527
01:23:58,240 --> 01:24:00,719
Speaker 1: they're sort of dynamics, whether it's the want a choice

1528
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:03,040
Speaker 1: or or you know, the the choice that some of

1529
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:06,000
Speaker 1: these young hunters are making. Um, it was just as

1530
01:24:06,040 --> 01:24:10,719
Speaker 1: contemporary and modern as as anything that we do here. Yeah,

1531
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:15,559
Speaker 1: and as as relevant. Um. And there's I can't remember

1532
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:17,680
Speaker 1: the name of the ceremony, but there's a ceremony they

1533
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:23,599
Speaker 1: do every year to like list the lost whalers out. Um.

1534
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:25,439
Speaker 1: That's something that struck me. At the end of the book,

1535
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:27,599
Speaker 1: you talk about a young man named Ben who died

1536
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:32,720
Speaker 1: is what is drowned by his spirit of Manta and

1537
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 1: was pulled under the the ocean and died. Um. It

1538
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:40,320
Speaker 1: is a pretty powerful way to kind of close out

1539
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:43,280
Speaker 1: his story and then talking about like he will be

1540
01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:46,160
Speaker 1: resurrected every year when they you know, for a while,

1541
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:47,840
Speaker 1: he'll be at the top of the list of of

1542
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:52,240
Speaker 1: all these whalers that of Paris. I'm sure you were

1543
01:24:52,320 --> 01:24:55,280
Speaker 1: attended those ceremonies, Like what kind of take me through

1544
01:24:55,320 --> 01:24:59,280
Speaker 1: that and what that meant to the Lama Larians and

1545
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:01,519
Speaker 1: their commune, because it was interesting to me to have

1546
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,720
Speaker 1: the way that they did that specific ceremony. Well, I

1547
01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:07,040
Speaker 1: think so what you're talking about is missa are Law,

1548
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 1: which is sort of the mass mass for for lost souls, um.

1549
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 1: And I think the one thing the Lawlands do better

1550
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:17,720
Speaker 1: than our society does is that they keep present in

1551
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:20,599
Speaker 1: their minds and in the rituals and sort of daily

1552
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:24,600
Speaker 1: actions of their community. Those who have been lost on

1553
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 1: you know, and the sort of the physical plane um.

1554
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:32,800
Speaker 1: And by doing so, those people truly remain part of

1555
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 1: the community for the living people. And that's not just

1556
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:38,200
Speaker 1: an expression, you know, they really do feel like they're

1557
01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:41,559
Speaker 1: interacting with them, that those spirits are joining them on

1558
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:44,879
Speaker 1: the hunt um and are giving them signs and portent

1559
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:49,680
Speaker 1: and um. You know. I think that that's one of

1560
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 1: the things that they don't want to lose. I think

1561
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:57,160
Speaker 1: that that's one thing that's really worth keeping as well. Sure,

1562
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:00,599
Speaker 1: did you find them to be a happy people? Another

1563
01:26:00,760 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 1: that we can say that there might be generational angst

1564
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:05,760
Speaker 1: obviously with the modernity part of it, But did you

1565
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:09,680
Speaker 1: find them to be happy in their daily lives? I

1566
01:26:09,720 --> 01:26:14,040
Speaker 1: think that's a complicated question because, like we often talk about,

1567
01:26:14,439 --> 01:26:17,040
Speaker 1: I think it can be a way to it. Two,

1568
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:21,360
Speaker 1: it's sort of infantilize their culture almost, And I think

1569
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:25,120
Speaker 1: that they're they're like very I think that they're just

1570
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:31,720
Speaker 1: as happy and um and also unhappy as we are.

1571
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:35,120
Speaker 1: You know, they're human beings. I think that their society

1572
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:38,759
Speaker 1: is structured in certain ways that bring out certain types

1573
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:42,160
Speaker 1: of happiness better than ours does. None of them are

1574
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:45,280
Speaker 1: basically ever lonely. Um. You know, and this is true

1575
01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:48,839
Speaker 1: across most hunter gatherer groups because things are so collective

1576
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:52,080
Speaker 1: and so communal. But at the same time those can

1577
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:57,200
Speaker 1: also for that sort of collectivism can also provide a

1578
01:26:57,240 --> 01:27:03,599
Speaker 1: break to or you know, a slow down to individual ambition. Um. So,

1579
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 1: at the same time as you might never be lonely

1580
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:08,360
Speaker 1: if you have to sort of share whatever resource you get,

1581
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:11,640
Speaker 1: you can never really keep any for yourself, so that

1582
01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:13,519
Speaker 1: you might be able to build up a stockpile of

1583
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:15,680
Speaker 1: fish that you could then go to the town and

1584
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:18,280
Speaker 1: sell to buy a net which you could then catch

1585
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:20,240
Speaker 1: more fish with, and so on and so forth. And

1586
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 1: that's and I've had young hunters expressed me frustration about that. Um. Yeah,

1587
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 1: there's some socialism in that hunts. It's like the the

1588
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:30,840
Speaker 1: idea that if you're a really good hunter doesn't really

1589
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:33,840
Speaker 1: matter because you're sharing it. Either way, you could be

1590
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:37,720
Speaker 1: a so so hunter or the best harpoon harpoon is

1591
01:27:37,720 --> 01:27:40,760
Speaker 1: still on the boat, but either way you you must

1592
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:44,360
Speaker 1: share it with everyone. Oh, it's yang and yang of

1593
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 1: that idea. I'm sure that's what I wondered about in

1594
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 1: reading the book, Like I struggle with certain things in

1595
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:53,519
Speaker 1: my life, you kind of have this much of our

1596
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:56,640
Speaker 1: modern society is detached from the family units that that

1597
01:27:56,720 --> 01:27:59,000
Speaker 1: were so prevalent in this country in the turn of

1598
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 1: the century, and all and on we've moved we oftentimes

1599
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 1: I have moved away from our family units and and

1600
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:11,120
Speaker 1: done those types of things. UM. And I think that's

1601
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 1: striking to me that you know, these folks live that's

1602
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:16,439
Speaker 1: really all they know is that they live in this

1603
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:19,200
Speaker 1: this small community and the same people every day, and

1604
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:23,840
Speaker 1: their their families are there. Their traditions are all insular. Um.

1605
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:26,840
Speaker 1: How did you feel going there? Were you? Were you

1606
01:28:26,920 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 1: jealous of any of their traditions? Did you wish that

1607
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:31,280
Speaker 1: you could bring back some of these things to to

1608
01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:34,040
Speaker 1: our world? Did you did you want to bring some

1609
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 1: of our ways of living to them? I mean, how

1610
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:40,920
Speaker 1: much did you weigh those those things? I think as

1611
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:44,559
Speaker 1: a journalist very much my goal was to not you know,

1612
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 1: I just I'm an observer. I try not to affect

1613
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:51,160
Speaker 1: events or to change things. Um. And so I very

1614
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:54,840
Speaker 1: much didn't want to sort of bring anything in with me. Um.

1615
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:58,200
Speaker 1: It was a great joy to be able to become,

1616
01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:00,640
Speaker 1: you know, two friends. And I still keep you know,

1617
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:03,280
Speaker 1: in good touch with a lot of these people. Um,

1618
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:08,599
Speaker 1: and you know I miss him like I. You know,

1619
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:13,240
Speaker 1: it's it's it's something that I truly, Um, you know,

1620
01:29:13,320 --> 01:29:15,760
Speaker 1: there's nowhere else I can speak that language. And you

1621
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:20,120
Speaker 1: know sometimes I have dreams in that language still And uh,

1622
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 1: it's both a joyful and a lonely experience. It's a

1623
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,240
Speaker 1: great way to put it. Is there something to wrap

1624
01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:31,120
Speaker 1: up here? Um? Is there something that you know from

1625
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:34,559
Speaker 1: this book that you would hope you know? Is there?

1626
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:36,519
Speaker 1: We've talked about a lot of I think that through

1627
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:38,280
Speaker 1: lines of the book, in the in the very tent

1628
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:41,720
Speaker 1: pole ideas of how you've built a story. But is

1629
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:44,720
Speaker 1: there one boiler point that you'd want everyone to know

1630
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:47,320
Speaker 1: that's a hunter now is trying to relate to? Because

1631
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:49,640
Speaker 1: often in the honey community we talk about our ancestors

1632
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:54,920
Speaker 1: and the fact that we feel of that in our activity.

1633
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:57,000
Speaker 1: Is there something that you would boil that all down

1634
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:00,000
Speaker 1: to from what you've learned from all this time? UM?

1635
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:02,960
Speaker 1: I know that's a tough one, but I think that

1636
01:30:03,080 --> 01:30:05,720
Speaker 1: one of the more important lessons that I drew from

1637
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:10,479
Speaker 1: the Lamellarreans is that you know, how much we live

1638
01:30:10,560 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: in industrial lifestyle, is a choice like it. You know it.

1639
01:30:16,040 --> 01:30:19,000
Speaker 1: You can consciously choose how much you want to participate

1640
01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 1: in that, whether it's um going and being a true

1641
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:26,120
Speaker 1: whaler forever for all of your calories, or you know,

1642
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:29,679
Speaker 1: just being a hunter and in in an American sense

1643
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:35,800
Speaker 1: and getting um with the spiritual and physical sustenance from that. Well. Well,

1644
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:37,960
Speaker 1: it's a great book. I enjoyed reading and I'm sure

1645
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:41,240
Speaker 1: I'll read it many more times. I found it, you know,

1646
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 1: just for the way I think of the world. I

1647
01:30:43,080 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 1: found it profound in many many ways. Um, it's called again,

1648
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:51,599
Speaker 1: it's called The Last Whalers. Doug about Clark is there. Um,

1649
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:54,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure people can get anywhere books are sold. Anywhere

1650
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:56,920
Speaker 1: books are We'll go get it. I am a big

1651
01:30:56,960 --> 01:31:00,559
Speaker 1: fan of the book the conversation. UM, thank you very

1652
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:03,640
Speaker 1: much for having in your home, and UM for the conversation.

1653
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:06,160
Speaker 1: It's been. It's I'm gonna probably listen to the audiobook

1654
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:08,160
Speaker 1: with the way back on the Plane because I do.

1655
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 1: I feel like there's so much detail in there. I

1656
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 1: probably missed something. UM, So thanks for the work. It's great.

1657
01:31:14,120 --> 01:31:21,720
Speaker 1: Thank you. Oh that's it. That's all another episode in

1658
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:25,400
Speaker 1: the books. Thank you too. Doug Bok Clark, Thank you too,

1659
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:28,760
Speaker 1: Miles an oldte and thank you to Phil are the

1660
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:32,840
Speaker 1: new the newest member of the Meat Eater family and

1661
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,080
Speaker 1: of the Hunting Collective family. It's a good episode. Hopefully

1662
01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:37,519
Speaker 1: guys found it. It's just a little bit of a

1663
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:40,679
Speaker 1: different subject. We traveled all the way across the world

1664
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:44,160
Speaker 1: to kind of discuss who we are and what hunting

1665
01:31:44,200 --> 01:31:46,679
Speaker 1: means to us and what it means our humanity and

1666
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:48,360
Speaker 1: and all those things. So I appreciate you kind of

1667
01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 1: diving into those complicated topics. Try to keep it as

1668
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:53,640
Speaker 1: light as we could. Go pick up Doug's book, Man

1669
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:56,559
Speaker 1: the Last Whalers is a great read, and if you

1670
01:31:56,560 --> 01:31:58,760
Speaker 1: don't like read and pick up the audiobook either way. UM,

1671
01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:01,080
Speaker 1: I got no no stake in that game other than

1672
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:04,080
Speaker 1: I really like his work, So go check that out.

1673
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:06,800
Speaker 1: What else? What else? Oh? Th h C at the

1674
01:32:06,800 --> 01:32:09,080
Speaker 1: meat Eater dot com. Th h C at the meat

1675
01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:12,719
Speaker 1: Eater dot com. Please continue to send me your emails

1676
01:32:12,720 --> 01:32:15,080
Speaker 1: and thoughts on the show. Your audio clips again one

1677
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:17,679
Speaker 1: to two minute audio clip speak right to your phone,

1678
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:20,960
Speaker 1: review the show something, ask the question, whatever you want

1679
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:22,920
Speaker 1: to do, send me the file play him at the

1680
01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:25,000
Speaker 1: end of each show as you're here in a minute.

1681
01:32:25,080 --> 01:32:28,400
Speaker 1: We actually have a comedian that sent us an audio

1682
01:32:28,439 --> 01:32:32,559
Speaker 1: file this time. His name is Tyler Sitar. He's a

1683
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:35,439
Speaker 1: he's a comedian, and he has a little bit about hunting.

1684
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:38,040
Speaker 1: So why not play that at the end. The audio

1685
01:32:38,160 --> 01:32:41,439
Speaker 1: quality is iffy, but it's some someone's pretty funny, So

1686
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:45,120
Speaker 1: give Tyler a play here in a minute. But um,

1687
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:48,200
Speaker 1: before we go, I just wanted to mention and nobody

1688
01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 1: really asked me to do this, but I think it's

1689
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:54,759
Speaker 1: really cool. My friends at Yetti opened up another, well

1690
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:57,360
Speaker 1: what they'll call flagship store or the Yetti retail store

1691
01:32:57,439 --> 01:33:00,360
Speaker 1: in Charleston, South Carolina. It's a cool place. If you

1692
01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:03,080
Speaker 1: follow them on Instagram, you've been seeing all the musical performances,

1693
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:05,720
Speaker 1: all the culinary events they've been having there. I just

1694
01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:08,000
Speaker 1: think it's cool that a brand like Jeddie is reaching

1695
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:10,120
Speaker 1: out and doing something in a town like Charleston. So

1696
01:33:10,160 --> 01:33:13,360
Speaker 1: if you're ever in Charleston, go over and visit the

1697
01:33:13,479 --> 01:33:16,160
Speaker 1: Eddie Store. Um, it looks like a pretty cool place.

1698
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:18,559
Speaker 1: I've not been there, but I'm gonna go. It's gonna

1699
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,360
Speaker 1: be a badass. So that's really all I got for

1700
01:33:21,400 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 1: this week. Next week, We're going to be joined by

1701
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:28,560
Speaker 1: Tyler Sharp. Tyler Sharp is the editor in chief of

1702
01:33:28,600 --> 01:33:31,240
Speaker 1: Modern Huntsman, so he's got a lot to say about

1703
01:33:31,240 --> 01:33:34,800
Speaker 1: the current state of hunting in our world. It's some

1704
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:39,360
Speaker 1: pretty interesting and perhaps inflammatory. Thanks. So we'll see how

1705
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:41,800
Speaker 1: it goes on. We'll see you next week. I want

1706
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:43,680
Speaker 1: to leave you with a little comedy and then a

1707
01:33:43,720 --> 01:34:01,800
Speaker 1: little old number seven see you reason Yeah but I

1708
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:09,360
Speaker 1: care like Yeah, I kill something help tail deer hound Yo.

1709
01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:12,240
Speaker 1: All had an easy tree stand because of the tower.

1710
01:34:13,320 --> 01:34:15,400
Speaker 1: I'm not afraid of lights, but ever for the falling.

1711
01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:18,120
Speaker 1: So I my bold London from the right road. I

1712
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 1: we had to Joe Chambo. Why did my guys gounts

1713
01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:23,640
Speaker 1: are not tell me I have could be ramble for

1714
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:28,360
Speaker 1: black Side? I should We had a hut of hand.

1715
01:34:28,400 --> 01:34:30,400
Speaker 1: Why does he not have any dream? Because I was fantastic.

1716
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:34,479
Speaker 1: It was awesome. You don't think n thing is an addiction?

1717
01:34:34,520 --> 01:34:36,920
Speaker 1: You never spend Farmers and a flat bars looking barrel

1718
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:43,720
Speaker 1: clutching for sparing box here the girlfriend rond a relapse ship.

1719
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:52,679
Speaker 1: You're at the flat bar Honday is awesome. Somebody, somebody

1720
01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:55,720
Speaker 1: every time I talked about Undy, do really O you

1721
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:59,640
Speaker 1: shot a defenseless animal, like a deer is not defenseless

1722
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:03,640
Speaker 1: when you you say, with the deer on an airplane? No,

1723
01:35:05,120 --> 01:35:06,600
Speaker 1: what did you look at your funny? You know he

1724
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: look at me delicious, you know, like steaks for his

1725
01:35:10,160 --> 01:35:18,360
Speaker 1: lower I'm read there he fall is dear enough looking

1726
01:35:18,479 --> 01:35:30,519
Speaker 1: hoping DC fantasy stagers listen used a way that's not

1727
01:35:30,640 --> 01:35:33,960
Speaker 1: fair much world, dear fair hand like that's gotta leaks,

1728
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:38,240
Speaker 1: part idiot, there's a frame. Fis your kids a deal

1729
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:43,360
Speaker 1: with a bike and chopper heads of your coal kid?

1730
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:45,960
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a smart phone. But he wear her

1731
01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:49,000
Speaker 1: miner rolls too. Can I try to chip the sand

1732
01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:51,280
Speaker 1: like playing my trunk to the parts. He's like a

1733
01:35:51,400 --> 01:35:59,560
Speaker 1: chopping spreet, Yeah, astracing his whole John Gas is a

1734
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:12,120
Speaker 1: bummer affection. That's happened a lot of word low number

1735
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:16,400
Speaker 1: seven Tennessee. Who whiskey got me drinking heaven and h

1736
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:19,679
Speaker 1: and just stopped to look good to me. They're gonna

1737
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:25,960
Speaker 1: have to department to the fire. Redeed, oh the fire,

1738
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:33,080
Speaker 1: indeed drinking in the fire, redeed o the finy d

1739
01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:35,960
Speaker 1: drinking heaven