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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I don't clean up

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Speaker 1: my house necessarily the way I probably should, particularly on

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Speaker 1: the yard. I've got an old ship and tools and

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Speaker 1: whatnot playing around. I don't keep them in the best order,

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Speaker 1: probably by some people's standards. And I've often wondered if

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Speaker 1: I suddenly passed away, what would happen to everything I own?

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Speaker 1: What kind of impression would that leave with the folks

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Speaker 1: that have to come up and kind of clean up

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Speaker 1: after me. I know it's kind of morbid, but it happens.

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Speaker 1: It happens on a regular basis. But I want to

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Speaker 1: tell you about a case where the gentleman passed away

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Speaker 1: naturally and the police when they were at his owl

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Speaker 1: found something that I think that they will never ever forget.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Backs. Jackie Howard,

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Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, is with me. Jackie.

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I don't know about you. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure your house is in gray order. Maybe you've got

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Speaker 1: a toolshid. But for me, I gotta tell you, it

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Speaker 1: really does bother me. I think about I guess it's

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Speaker 1: because I've been out to so many death scenes, and

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Speaker 1: I think there, but for the grace of God, go

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Speaker 1: high kind of look around and man, when you die,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's the way it is. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you didn't clean up before you died, it's just gonna

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Speaker 1: stay that way. And I guess it leaves an impression

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Speaker 1: on the people that come out and find you and

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Speaker 1: the people that have to clean up after you. That's lootly.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, as in many others we've talked

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Speaker 1: about it did I've told you before, Joe, if I

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Speaker 1: run across something and I don't know what it is,

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Speaker 1: I'm not opening at it. And this is another one

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Speaker 1: of those cases. This gentleman died of natural causes. Yet,

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Speaker 1: as with any death, the police came out. They're looking

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Speaker 1: around to make sure that it is indeed natural causes,

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Speaker 1: and they find in a bucket a severed foot. I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine the condition of this foot. We don't

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Speaker 1: know how long it's been there. We don't know where

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Speaker 1: it came from, we don't know how it was stored.

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Speaker 1: All we know is that it was in a bucket.

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Speaker 1: What did the police find? I just wish I could

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Speaker 1: have been kind of an independent observer knowing what was coming,

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Speaker 1: just to see the expression on their faces, because that's

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Speaker 1: one of those oh my god moments. Just imagine. And

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Speaker 1: this is in Biloxi, Mississippi, and it's the busy jurisdiction,

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Speaker 1: and these guys are just going out and look, my

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Speaker 1: hats off to him, because are working at something. Is

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Speaker 1: in any kind of death investigation. As forensic investigators, certainly,

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Speaker 1: you know, we say our supposition is that every death,

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Speaker 1: not some death, but every death is a homicide until

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Speaker 1: we can prove otherwise. So these guys were doing their

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Speaker 1: job out there, and they were just checking to take

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Speaker 1: everything into consideration to try to understand what was going

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Speaker 1: on and what exactly do you do when you find

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Speaker 1: a foot? How in the world are you going to

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Speaker 1: try to make sense of this. You've got a guy

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Speaker 1: that's died of natural causes. I think my first inclination

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Speaker 1: would be, well, let's go examine this guy's body one

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Speaker 1: more time to make sure he's got both of his feet,

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Speaker 1: and in this case he did. So then you have

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Speaker 1: to to ask yourself, from an investigative standpoint, why what

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Speaker 1: a man, first off, have a foot that has obviously

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Speaker 1: been dissected away from another person, and it's in a bucket.

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Speaker 1: It's in an advanced state of decomposition, which to me

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Speaker 1: is kind of fascinating. But it was in such a

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Speaker 1: state it was not as far gone as maybe we

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Speaker 1: might think, because the police were instantly able to still

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Speaker 1: understand that they were staring at a foot that belonged

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Speaker 1: to some person out there. So it wasn't just like

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Speaker 1: a collection of bones where they had to kind of

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Speaker 1: go through it and say, well, this might be a

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Speaker 1: bone that originated from a hand, or maybe this is

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Speaker 1: a bone that originated from a foot. No, they said

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Speaker 1: that this is a severed human foot. So automatically, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're thinking, well, I got a foot, where's the rest

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Speaker 1: of the body, because you have to answer that question.

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Speaker 1: It's not one of these findings from an investigative standpoint

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Speaker 1: that you can just kind of gloss over and say, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he had a human foot. We'll just move on to

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Speaker 1: the next thing. Let's let's close this case. Now that

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Speaker 1: begs more questions. The first thing that would have to

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Speaker 1: be done is retrieval of the foot, obviously, but as

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Speaker 1: you said, the question is where's the rest of the body.

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Speaker 1: What would investigators have done on the scene to determine

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Speaker 1: if there was more remains on that property. Well, first off,

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Speaker 1: you're going to look if you've got a if you

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Speaker 1: have a an element of a body. In this case

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Speaker 1: of foot. Essentially, what it's been presented is that it's

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Speaker 1: in a bucket beneath the house. You're going to treat

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Speaker 1: this as if there might be the rest of the remains.

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Speaker 1: When you say that the bucket was underneath the house,

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Speaker 1: do you don't mean that it was buried? No, no,

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Speaker 1: underneath right, Yeah, this would have been in plain view

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Speaker 1: for the police. It would have been enough so that

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Speaker 1: there there's searching beneath this guy's home and they look,

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Speaker 1: there is a bucket. Well, let's look in the bucket.

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Speaker 1: They pulled the bucket out and they see the foot there.

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Speaker 1: So you have to think, well, if there's a dismembered

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Speaker 1: foot here, this entire area surrounding the foot and the

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Speaker 1: placement of it is a potential that has to be

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Speaker 1: am and maybe even excavated at that point in time,

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Speaker 1: because you're gonna go through here and see if maybe

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Speaker 1: the rest of the remains have been dismembered and buried

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Speaker 1: beneath the house. So that's something just from Jump Street

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Speaker 1: that you would have to consider to see if you

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Speaker 1: can find anything that's going to match up with the

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Speaker 1: dismembered foot. Do you find a legma and for instance,

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Speaker 1: that has actually got saw marks on it where dismemberment

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Speaker 1: may have taken place, Then you have to go into

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Speaker 1: the house because if you have a person that is

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Speaker 1: storing okay for lack of a better term, or retaining

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Speaker 1: a severed foot, you have to think, well, are they

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Speaker 1: retaining other parts? Are there other items inside the house

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Speaker 1: that might be associated some mortal remains of someone you

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Speaker 1: know as this person. Have they taken a body apart

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Speaker 1: and preserved organs for instance? There have been cases of

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Speaker 1: that where people have done this. You have people that

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Speaker 1: obviously that have taken bodies apart, preserved individual parts, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, like organs, hearts, lungs, these sorts of things

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Speaker 1: and put them in jars and put preservative in there.

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Speaker 1: People that retain heads. Jeffrey Dahmer famously did that, and

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Speaker 1: there have been other people that that like to do

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Speaker 1: this sort of thing. Are that are compelled to do

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Speaker 1: it for whatever reason. There are people that you know

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Speaker 1: have been caught ordering human body parts through the mail

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Speaker 1: or over the internet over the years, and of course

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Speaker 1: they try to stem that u S Customs does, but

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Speaker 1: you know there have been cases where things have come

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Speaker 1: into this country. So you know, I guess the big

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Speaker 1: thing here is you're trying to find a point of

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Speaker 1: origin and where's the rest of the body. So as

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Speaker 1: an investigator, you would go from stem to stern in

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Speaker 1: this Phylla's house, looking through the house, trying to determine

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Speaker 1: what's there, is anything odd out of place? You would

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Speaker 1: have to really begin to pick apart this guy's life.

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Speaker 1: And keep in mind, at this point in time, he's dead.

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Speaker 1: He's dead. It's not like you can take him downtown

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Speaker 1: and send him in a table and begin to question him.

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Speaker 1: You know, where were you on this date? What had

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Speaker 1: you been doing on this date? How did you come

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Speaker 1: into possession of a severed human foot? You don't have

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Speaker 1: that person to ask us questions of. And to my

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Speaker 1: way of thinking, if he's got close friends or relatives,

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Speaker 1: unless he is really out of his mind, this is

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Speaker 1: not something he's going to disclose to anybody else. So

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Speaker 1: his family might not even be aware that he had

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Speaker 1: this there. His friends might not be aware that he

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Speaker 1: had this there. This is some kind of secret that

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Speaker 1: he has taken with him to his grave. So then

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Speaker 1: the investigation turns to trying to discover the identity of

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Speaker 1: this foot. Who does this foot belong to and how

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Speaker 1: did it end up in a bucket? D n A

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Speaker 1: is your friend? Is it not? Of course it is.

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Speaker 1: There's not a lot you can do from an anthropological standpoint.

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Speaker 1: Kind of let me put a finer point on that.

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Speaker 1: When you look at a foot, unlike a skull, for instance,

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Speaker 1: where we can do kind of a a typology where

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Speaker 1: you know, you you think about you can look for

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Speaker 1: certain racial characteristics. You can look for indications of whether

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Speaker 1: or not this is a male versus female skull. There's

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Speaker 1: terms that we use, for instance, with male skull versus

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Speaker 1: a female skull, Like the features of a male skull

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Speaker 1: tend to be what are called robust. You think about

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Speaker 1: your brow line, kind of run your finger across your

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Speaker 1: brow there. Males tend to have kind of a what's

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Speaker 1: called a protuberant brow line, very pronounced, whereas with female

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Speaker 1: skulls you'll have a use of term grassisle. I love

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Speaker 1: that term, by the way. It means kind of fine

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Speaker 1: and it's less robust, and that that would be, but

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Speaker 1: you don't have that with a foot. How are you

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Speaker 1: going to actually begin to narrow this down? Right? You

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Speaker 1: are Jackie and saying that DNA would be your friend.

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Speaker 1: I think the key is are you going to be

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Speaker 1: able to recover any kind of viable DNA from this foot?

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Speaker 1: How well preserved is it? Because you know, we talked

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Speaker 1: about this all the where you have a sample, and

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Speaker 1: the term that we use is degradation, it becomes degraded

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Speaker 1: where the sample will be no longer viable. What your

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Speaker 1: source would be is so decomposed to the point where

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Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to find vible DNA.

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Speaker 1: But I think in this particular case, that's what they

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Speaker 1: were relying on. So they were able to actually retrieve

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Speaker 1: a DNA sample from the foot, and I think that

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Speaker 1: that's when the story actually takes a turn here. So

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Speaker 1: let me throw another scenario into the mix. This foot

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Speaker 1: was found in two thousand nineteen. What if you had

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Speaker 1: another body part found say three years earlier, two thousand

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Speaker 1: six in another state. How do we see if there's

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Speaker 1: a connection. Excellent question, and it's kind of simple. All

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Speaker 1: it's going to require on the part of the investigators

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Speaker 1: over in Biloxi is to begin to search news stories. Okay,

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Speaker 1: are there any stories that are out there involving dismembered

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Speaker 1: bodies where they were actually missing part of the body.

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Speaker 1: They found two legs, or they found a torso, or

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Speaker 1: they found an arm, or they found a head, but

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Speaker 1: yet the feet are missing. In this particular case, that's

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Speaker 1: actually where you start from an investigative standpoint. And then

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Speaker 1: I think that some of the tools that we now

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Speaker 1: have at our disposal, these are repositories that exist for

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Speaker 1: individuals you know that are currently unidentified, like name us

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Speaker 1: in those those types of places where they have a

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Speaker 1: repository of DNA sample from unknown bodies. If you can

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Speaker 1: retrieve a DNA sample from that item that you have

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Speaker 1: and submitted, are you going to get a DNA match?

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Speaker 1: That kind of intensifies the instigation. And of course if

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Speaker 1: you come up with zero, then you have to kind

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Speaker 1: of rethink your approach to the case. In this particular case,

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Speaker 1: they were able to find I think a match in

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Speaker 1: in this case, it does actually go back to a

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Speaker 1: case that originated in two thousand sixteen. I've never been

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Speaker 1: one for puzzles I've never particularly liked jigsaw puzzles. I

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Speaker 1: lose my patients with them. When I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: I'd be compelled to have to participate in that activity.

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Speaker 1: It's just something I lose my patients with really quickly.

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Speaker 1: In this particular case, we've got kind of a human

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Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzle at this point in time. How are we

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Speaker 1: going to match up a foot that's found in Biloxi,

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Speaker 1: Mississippi with any other dismembered body that might be found,

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Speaker 1: I would assume in a kind of a regional context,

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Speaker 1: because you got to think that whoever took the foot

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Speaker 1: off of this body didn't go too far with it perhaps,

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Speaker 1: and I think that that's what the police were looking

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Speaker 1: at here. What happened in this case? A body was

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Speaker 1: found along the side of US ninety in Louisiana, in St.

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Speaker 1: Tammany Parish. And it was also not intact body. It

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Speaker 1: was just a torso. The man's arm was missing and

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Speaker 1: one leg had been severed just below the knee. Now, again,

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Speaker 1: this was in a different state. It obviously took three

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Speaker 1: years to put these body parts together. How did they

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Speaker 1: do it? What is the connection here? Well, the connection

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Speaker 1: is the fact that in two thousand and sixteen when

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Speaker 1: this dismembered remain was found. That owner at that particular time,

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Speaker 1: this St. Tammany Parish, the corner at that time, made

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Speaker 1: the determination of the cause of death. He knew that

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Speaker 1: he was dealing with with a body that was missing

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Speaker 1: both arms, but the head was intact, most of the

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Speaker 1: torso was intact, and you know, like you said, one

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Speaker 1: of the feet were missing, and there was also some

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Speaker 1: other trauma that would have been what's called superior to

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Speaker 1: where the foot was dissected off. It's almost like somebody

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Speaker 1: got into the knee. They were going to attempt to

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Speaker 1: also dissect that knee. They had taken the foot off,

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Speaker 1: and they had moved up the leg to the knee,

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Speaker 1: and they kind of stopped midway through this. And that

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Speaker 1: gives you an idea that there was an attempt perhaps

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Speaker 1: two take apart the entire body. Maybe they just lost energy,

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Speaker 1: maybe they were scared, thought that they were going to

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Speaker 1: be found out, and they essentially put the body into

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Speaker 1: a vehicle and then dumped it along US Highway ninety,

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Speaker 1: which runs along the Gulf Coast. It ninety is actually

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Speaker 1: the old road US Federal Highway that people would go

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Speaker 1: back and forth on now I ten, which is just

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Speaker 1: to the north of it has taken the place of that,

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Speaker 1: but US Highway nineties still exists. Interestingly enough, where the

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Speaker 1: foot was found was over in Biloxi, where the body

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Speaker 1: was found back in two thousand and sixteen, was roughly

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Speaker 1: about only sixty miles away, you know, And that's that's

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Speaker 1: what that's like a fifty five minute car drive. Maybe

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Speaker 1: if you're just staying within a speed limits, say you're

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Speaker 1: driving sixty five miles per hour, fifty five to an

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Speaker 1: hour and five minutes, depending upon how fast you're going,

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Speaker 1: it's not that far away. So the question I think

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Speaker 1: for me is, well, why is it that an individual

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Speaker 1: would take apart this body to a certain degree, dump

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Speaker 1: it in Louisiana and then travel down the road to

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Speaker 1: their home and retain the foot. Why in the world

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Speaker 1: would you retain the foot, because you would think that

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Speaker 1: the body itself would be the biggest obstacle to overcome.

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Speaker 1: You're trying to dispose of it. You just throw it

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Speaker 1: out alongside the road. There's no indication that there was

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Speaker 1: an attempt to really hide it or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like it was a dump. If you will

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Speaker 1: just alongside the road, a thoroughfare where somebody is traveling,

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Speaker 1: so conveniently they just kind of take it and lay

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Speaker 1: it out alongside the road. But yet they retain the

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Speaker 1: foot and take it home with them. That's that's super bizarre.

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Speaker 1: I'm like you, though, Joe, I'm beginning to question why.

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Speaker 1: I guess the better question would be what was the purpose?

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Speaker 1: As opposed to why would they do it? What purposed

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Speaker 1: them to engage in this? Are they attempting to hold

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Speaker 1: onto the foot as a as a trophy item? Are

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Speaker 1: they forgetful and say, well, you know, I got the

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Speaker 1: foot in a bucket, I'm just gonna stick it under

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Speaker 1: the house and I'll get to it eventually. What's your

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Speaker 1: purpose for retaining the foot if you're the perpetrator? I

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Speaker 1: have no idea. Maybe there's some kind of psychological attachment

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Speaker 1: to it. But the fact that he did have it

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00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,359
Speaker 1: is what led to the break in the case because

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00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,640
Speaker 1: the corner over in St. Tammany, when obviously they've they've

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Speaker 1: got this um, this horrible remain that they've recovered off

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Speaker 1: of Highway ninety. In addition to their assessment the physical

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Speaker 1: assessment of the body, they did take a DNA sample,

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Speaker 1: and so that DNA sample was sent to a repository

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Speaker 1: where you have these individuals that are unknown, and hopefully,

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Speaker 1: at some point in time in the future they would

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00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 1: be able to get a hit, maybe a familial hit

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Speaker 1: on a family member, where they could say, yeah, well

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Speaker 1: we have a human remain that is more than likely

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Speaker 1: related to this living person. I don't know that in

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00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,440
Speaker 1: their wildest fantasies they would have thought that the connection

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Speaker 1: would have been made between the dismembered foot and the

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00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,879
Speaker 1: body that they had found three years earlier. What was

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Speaker 1: the cause of death? The body was found discarded on

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Speaker 1: the side of the road, not sure how long it

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Speaker 1: had been there, What was the cause of death, and

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Speaker 1: how was that determined? Considering that there were body parts missing. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's get to the cause of death. I like that,

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Speaker 1: and then I really want to talk about the missing arms.

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Speaker 1: The cause of death in this case, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be blunt force trauma. And what that means is that

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Speaker 1: somebody had taken this fellow and literally beaten him to death.

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Speaker 1: Because the way the corner terms it, he had sustained

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Speaker 1: massive skull fractures. There was massive skull trauma, multiple fractures.

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Speaker 1: So for every if you just imagine cracking of an

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Speaker 1: egg and that represents the skull. Every time you kind

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Speaker 1: of strike an egg, saying hard boiled egg, that's a

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Speaker 1: better example than an an unboiled egg. Hard boiled egg.

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Speaker 1: Every time you strike the exterior, that external table of

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Speaker 1: that shell, you're going to create a fracture and will

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Speaker 1: kind of have like a spider web appearance. I think

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Speaker 1: that most people can kind of appreciate that. So for

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Speaker 1: every one of those little spider webs that you see,

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Speaker 1: imagine that it's a wagon wheel with a hub. For

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Speaker 1: every one of those, that represents an individual impact. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so when you hear a corner and medical examiner say, well,

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Speaker 1: we've got multiple blunt force trauma to the head, what

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Speaker 1: they're saying is they can appreciate, first off, what's called

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Speaker 1: a focal area of hemorrhage if you have soft tissue

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Speaker 1: remaining that is the scalp, and then underlying, perhaps there's

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Speaker 1: this kind of egg like fracture that has taken place,

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Speaker 1: and you'll have multiple of these. So for every say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, you have this skull fracture that is radiating

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Speaker 1: out like the spokes on a wagon wheel. Every time

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Speaker 1: this fellow is struck, it's leaving behind this evidence of

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Speaker 1: individual strikes all the way around it. And in addition

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Speaker 1: to that, not only was he struck about his cranium, okay,

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Speaker 1: but he's also got mull table fractures over his face

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Speaker 1: as well. So whoever did this to him intended to

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00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,480
Speaker 1: bring about his death as a result of literally beating

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00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 1: him to death. So you've got these fractures that are existent.

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Speaker 1: And one of the difficult things in the morgue when

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Speaker 1: you have multiple fractures like this, you'll have these kind

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00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 1: of interrelated, communicating fractures, okay, And what that means is

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Speaker 1: that where an individual is struck, it radiates out like spiderweb,

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Speaker 1: and then from an adjacent fracture point of impact, you'll

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00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 1: have those radiating lines that will come out in that

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00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,479
Speaker 1: kind of overlap many times, and if you've got a

347
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: lot of them, it takes some time for the pathologists

348
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,640
Speaker 1: to sit there and say, Okay, this, this little line

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Speaker 1: of fractures is related to this impact. This one is

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Speaker 1: related to this impact. And you say, moran, why is

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00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,359
Speaker 1: that even important? Well, it's important because you get an

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00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: idea as to perhaps the sequencing of the injuries. You

353
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Speaker 1: know in what order did they occur, if there's any

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00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: evidence of For instance, this is very important where we

355
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,200
Speaker 1: have no hemorrhage that indicates that this is a post

356
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,160
Speaker 1: mortem injury, that somebody continue to beat this guy after

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Speaker 1: he is dead. So you have to kind of assess

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00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 1: all of that as as you go along, and it

359
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 1: puts a fine point on what brought about this guy's

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00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: cause of death. And my money, you learn more about

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00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: the dead from the life that they lead, those things

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Speaker 1: that that they were associated with, family friends, all those

363
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 1: sorts of things. You learn more from their identification many

364
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,400
Speaker 1: times than you do about their cause of death. And

365
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 1: with this victim that was partially dismembered, we know specifically

366
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Speaker 1: what brought about his death. He was humbled to death,

367
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Speaker 1: he was beaten to death with multiple skull fractures, facial fractures.

368
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Speaker 1: But if you really want to get it to the

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Speaker 1: heart of the story, you have to find out who

370
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 1: he is. And for the police in both Mississippi and

371
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 1: in Louisiana, it was a head scratcher for him. They

372
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Speaker 1: had no idea trying to identify this person who has

373
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: been left on the side of the road and identifying

374
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 1: and matching this foot How is that done? Obviously we

375
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: know they made the DNA match, that's how they were

376
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: able to connect the two different body parts, but this

377
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: gentleman was still not identified. The arms were missing, which

378
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: meant they couldn't do fingerprints. How did they make the identification?

379
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: I actually had a case in my distant past where

380
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 1: I found a body in a creek and both of

381
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: the hands were missing off of the body. And it

382
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: wasn't the smartest person that had done this because they

383
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: left guy's wallet in his back pocket. But they cut

384
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 1: the hands off of this individual. And immediately you begin

385
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: to think, well, they cut the hands off because they

386
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: wanted to impede the ability of us to get him

387
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: identified their fingerprints. But in this case, you've got both

388
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 1: arms missing, which is is odd in itself, and what

389
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: do you accomplished by that? What? A lot of this

390
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: is supposition on our part As an investigator. You have

391
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: to kind of think, what's the purpose behind removing not

392
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: just the hands, but also the arms. And this is

393
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: my thought nowadays with proliferation of tattoos, tattoos or specific

394
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: identifiers that we look at, So if anybody has tattoos

395
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: on their arms. You can look at it and say

396
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 1: that appears to be the same tattoo that my brother had,

397
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: or my dad had, or whatever the case might be.

398
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: When you're trying to get a body visually identified, removing

399
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: the arms, it can mean that maybe the individual had

400
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: tattoos and you're trying to impede the investigation by doing that.

401
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, at the end end of

402
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 1: the arms, you've also got hands which you can roll

403
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: a print off of. And if a person has a

404
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: record anywhere, and not necessarily just a record, but you know,

405
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: for those of us that have have been in the

406
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: armed forces, for instance, if you've never been printed before

407
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: in your life, you're gonna get printed in the armed forces.

408
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: And today they do DNA swabs, but you're gonna get printed.

409
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: And so you've got a print card on file somewhere

410
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: out there. Certain employers keep print cards. And then, not

411
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 1: to mention the criminal population, anybody's been booked at any

412
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: point in time, you've got a print card somewhere. So

413
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,239
Speaker 1: that's something else. From an investigative standpoint, it's gonna hamper you.

414
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: You're trying to make an I D. You have to

415
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 1: begin to think. You look at it and you think, well,

416
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: it was the purpose of taking the arms off? Was

417
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 1: it just part and parcel of dismembering a body to

418
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,719
Speaker 1: try to make it compact so that it would make

419
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: for easier disposal or are you trying to hamper the

420
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: authority's ability to roll a print or make a visual.

421
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: I d with the tattoos. What's fascinating about this case

422
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: and I can't get past this having grown up in

423
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: this area. You have got possibly two of the apex

424
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: predators in the world that inhabit this area. You've got

425
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: alligators because the body was actually found immediately adjacent to

426
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: an area that's called the riggle Eas And the Riggles

427
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: is a is a pass essentially a pass in the

428
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: water where it goes from Lake Ponta Train into what

429
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: another body water is called leg Born and then that

430
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: opens out into the Gulf of Mexico. So you've got

431
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 1: alligators that are in twelve this area out there, there's

432
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: there's actually swamp tours in this particular area. People got

433
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: on boats and they see alligators. They're they're everywhere down there.

434
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: And then out in the Gulf of Mexico, you've got sharks.

435
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: So why just take the body and kind of dump

436
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: it right there on the side of the road when

437
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: it could have been more easily facilitated where you nobody'd

438
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: ever find the remains potentially if you placed it out there.

439
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: And the fact that they went to these laborious links

440
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: of trying to dissect out a body and then just

441
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: kind of suddenly dump it's kind of fascinating to me.

442
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: I think it's almost like it was an incomplete attempt

443
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: at getting rid of a body. But thankfully, because they

444
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: were able to retain and capture DNA, they were able

445
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: to get a positive id on this individual. You mentioned

446
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: a couple of times in their Joe about being able

447
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: to identify tattoos. How is that? Are you talking about

448
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: recognizing the pattern the kind of inks? How do you

449
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: do that? Depended upon the artists that actually and look

450
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: we we can. Let's just say plainly, tattoos are far

451
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: more common than they used to be. In the early days.

452
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: There were specific people that that were highly skilled at

453
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: identifying the work of specific tattoo artist. I don't know

454
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: if people understand this. You would sit the people would

455
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: learn to kind of perform tattoo artistry would sit at

456
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: the feet of a master essentially, and they would kind

457
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: of learn how to do this, and they all kind

458
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: of had this family tree that they would descend out of. Well,

459
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: this looks like so and so's work, okay, so you

460
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: could almost regionalize it. There was like several famous tattoo artists.

461
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: I think there was one in particular Baltimore that was very,

462
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: very popular, and he was well known, and you could

463
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: see people that had kind of copied his work or

464
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: learned from him. So that's kind of a tie back.

465
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: But nowadays you've got people that have shops everywhere. There's

466
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: been a real proliferation, so it kind of waters down

467
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: your ability as an investigator, kind of narrowed down what

468
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: the actual origin of that is. Now if you've got

469
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: an older gentleman that's had a tattoo for a protracted

470
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: period of time. It used to be that you would

471
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: have people that were in service, particularly people that had

472
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: traveled overseas to like the Philippines, that would get tattoos,

473
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: say around Subic Bay and those those areas like that

474
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: that were in the Navy, those were specifically identifiable. Then

475
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: you have of more rough hewn tattoos, which actually kind

476
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: of make it easier to identify an individual. And I'm

477
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: thinking things like homemade tattoos and jailhouse tattoos, because you

478
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: can certain tattoos you look at it and you can say,

479
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: well that, yeah, that that kind of looks like a

480
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 1: jailhouse tattoo, that somebody had this done in prison. It

481
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: doesn't have the same precision to it, it doesn't have

482
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: a variety of inks, and so those are little indicators

483
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: to us as to the origin of the tattoo. Well,

484
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: if you've got a gailhouse tattoo, guess what as that's

485
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: invaluable when it comes to an investigation because you can say, well,

486
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: this person has done time in the joint perhaps, and

487
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: depend upon the type of tattoo, it might lead back

488
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: to a specific point of origin and where they had

489
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,719
Speaker 1: done time. It leads you have a place to start.

490
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: That's the important thing about getting i d s done

491
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: in forensics and death investigation. You know, we kind of

492
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: have this old, this old idea that doesn't really exist

493
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: anymore of visual idea. Visual idea is the worst kind

494
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: of I D that you can do, where you kind

495
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: of have this drupio Morganton and you think about from

496
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: the movies years ago where weeping family member comes into

497
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: the morgue and they pull the sheet back and they say, yes,

498
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: that's my brother or whatever. It doesn't really happen like

499
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: that anymore, and if it does, it shouldn't happen that

500
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: way because we have so many tools at hand to

501
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: get people identified. So there's three levels of identification that

502
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: we have. We have unidentified, which means we have no

503
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: idea who this person is, which in this case certainly happened.

504
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: You know, we had a foot, and then we had

505
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: a partially dissected remain that was in another state. I

506
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 1: had no idea who they were, so that's unidentified. Then

507
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: we have something that's called presumptive I d Presumptive idea

508
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: is kind of that mushy middle ground that you have.

509
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: And I've had cases where I had no DNA to

510
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: necessarily work with, or the individual had no family members

511
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: to compare the identity to. I had a case in particular,

512
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: where a woman was locked in her house with her

513
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: dogs for about five months and the dogs had consumed

514
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: a goodly portion of her body, and so the house

515
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: was locked from the inside, her keys were there her

516
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: whilet was there her car was there, but there was

517
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: nothing of her that remained from her waist up. Okay,

518
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: I had no fingerprints to go on, she had no

519
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: living relatives, So that's that would be a presumptive i D.

520
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: That body was a female body, she was African American,

521
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: and she resided there. We knew that that was her home,

522
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: and then we had nothing else to hang her hat on. Okay,

523
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: so that's a presumptive i D. And then we have

524
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: a positive i D where scientifically we've been able to

525
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: verify through DNA, fingerprints, dental that sort of thing that

526
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: definitively is that person. The least reliable probably is a

527
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: visual i D because you can have there are too

528
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: many things that can happen with the visual i D.

529
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: First off, people are terrified when they show up to

530
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: the MOREK to see a body. They're so emotional many

531
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: times that they'recked. I've had multiple bodies misidentified over the

532
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: years through visual idea. I never rely on government i D.

533
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: It's it's something that it's a starting place. You know,

534
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: if somebody has a driver's license on them, it's a

535
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: starting place. But I have to be able to verify

536
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: that to say okay, I think that this is who

537
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: I have. I've got a body that is just torn shreds.

538
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: I can't look at a driver's license and actually say, well, yeah,

539
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: this is the same person. It kind of looks like them.

540
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: How are you going to do that when a person's

541
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: face is horribly disfigured. It's a starting place. Okay, I

542
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: don't trust any kind of idea because it can be

543
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: forged a year from now after I've stated that definitively

544
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: that I got that body I d through a driver's

545
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: license and it turns out not to be them. Why,

546
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: I've just put myself in a heck of a position

547
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: not to mention the horror that descends upon the family

548
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: at that point in time because I assume something. I

549
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: assume something and it turns out not to be their

550
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: loved when that has happened as well. So you have

551
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: to be very definitive about these things. And one of

552
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: the most definitive things you can do nowadays, and there's

553
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: no excuse not to use it, is d NA. There's

554
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: another component here, and that is phenotyping. What is that

555
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: and how does it come into play? Well? With phenotyping,

556
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: you're taking a sample of d N a okay, And

557
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: based upon the markers within that DNA as it is examined,

558
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: you can come up with certain traits or characteristics that

559
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: are unique to that DNA strand. And what that means

560
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: is that they can and listen, listen, it's not okay,

561
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: it's not, but it's it's really quite amazing technology because

562
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: they can they can hazard an educated guests. They can

563
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: say that with phenotyping, based upon the markers that we

564
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 1: see on this strand of DNA, we can offer an

565
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: opinion that this individuals, say, for instance, is Middle Eastern

566
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: in origin. Okay, So therefore they're going to be more

567
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: dark complexed, maybe olive complexed. There's a high likelihood they'll

568
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: either have brown or green eyes. Their hair might be

569
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: black and straight, brown and straight, maybe slightly wavy. We

570
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: can get an idea for height in many of these cases.

571
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: They can also get an idea for the build of

572
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: the of the person. And if they really dig deep

573
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: with this, they can see certain markers that might be

574
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: indicative of the type of health the subject may have had.

575
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: There might be some kind of DNA predispositions to certain

576
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: types of health issues they might have in their life.

577
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: And when you do that, you begin to kind of

578
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: bring this picture together of who this person might be.

579
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: And you know, amazingly, with these types of cases, they

580
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: can create create a composite of these individuals DNA snapshot,

581
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: and these DNA snapshots are absolutely amazing. They can create

582
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: in general rate an image of a person. Now, like

583
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: I said, imagery went back to driver's licenses, imagery itself

584
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: is not necessarily enough to confirm an identification. This is

585
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: merely a place to start. So just because you have

586
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: a phenotype that gives you an outline of what the

587
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: person or who the person might be, what their point

588
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 1: of origin is, it doesn't mean that you have a

589
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: specific identification on the body, Okay, And I gotta I

590
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: gotta mention this as well. In this particular case, the

591
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: l s U Faces Lab got involved with this. With

592
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: this case, the l s U Faces Lab was the

593
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: first lab in the United States located Louisiana State University.

594
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: They were the first lab where they actually digitized a

595
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 1: human skull and and we're able to model a skull

596
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: to great effect. And they also do clay modeling, and

597
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: they did a they generated a clay model on this

598
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: gentleman that they found in St. Tammany, Paris back in

599
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, and we're able to get an

600
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: idea of what he may have looked like in life

601
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: in a in a three D sense like that. So

602
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: you coupled that along with the phenotyping, and now an

603
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: image begins to appear. The key, though, the key is

604
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: to find specific connectivity linkage, if you will, through DNA

605
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: to a family member. Ultimately, this gentleman was identified. His

606
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: name is Cleanthus constants they were able to through the

607
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: d N a match to a family member of North

608
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: and not surprisingly, the phenotype sketches of what they thought

609
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: this man would look like matched Joe. Isn't that amazing?

610
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: DNA is the It's a modern wonder From a forensic standpoint,

611
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: Clay modeling is fine, and we've done that for a

612
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: number of years, and that was kind of the first step,

613
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: I think for many of us. But when we see

614
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: what they're doing with these so called phenotyping snapshots, if

615
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: you will, it's absolutely amazing how you can take those

616
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 1: base elements that we are, that we kind of spring

617
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: from and and capture a picture, capture a picture for

618
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: a real person and kind of conjure them up out

619
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: of this DNA phenotyping and the similarities are absolutely just striking.

620
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs