1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:13,320
Speaker 1: M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,

2
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,720
Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

3
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

4
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,760
Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard

5
00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,560
Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

6
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

7
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,760
Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

8
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,479
Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

9
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,320
Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a

10
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:56,840
Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks

11
00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,200
Speaker 1: so much for joining me for session two oh seven

12
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: of the Therapy a Black Girl's Podcast. We'll get right

13
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:15,720
Speaker 1: into the episode after a word from our sponsors. In

14
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,520
Speaker 1: recent years, we've seen more and more depictions of transracial

15
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 1: adoption than the media. Most notably, we've seen this play

16
00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 1: out with Randall Pearson's storyline on This Is Us. While

17
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,400
Speaker 1: the show has done a good job of shedding some

18
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,000
Speaker 1: light on this experience, there is far more to discuss.

19
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,680
Speaker 1: Joining us today to share more about the impact transracial

20
00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 1: adoption can have on one's mental health is Judith Sodora.

21
00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,360
Speaker 1: Judith is an Afro Haitian American with West and Southern

22
00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,920
Speaker 1: East African descent, and there's a licensed marriage and family

23
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,520
Speaker 1: therapist in Oregon. She completed her Masters in Marriage and

24
00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,000
Speaker 1: Family Therapy and is currently in a doctoral program for

25
00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:58,760
Speaker 1: marriage and family therapy. She has experience working with individuals, families,

26
00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,919
Speaker 1: couples and parents, and child dynamics, and specializes in working

27
00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 1: with adoptive families, especially within transracial adoption. Judith and I

28
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,400
Speaker 1: chatted about identity formation and what this might look like

29
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,720
Speaker 1: for a child who has been adopted transracially, what it

30
00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 1: might look like, the whole space for both gratitude and

31
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,480
Speaker 1: grief as it relates to adoption, things to consider about

32
00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 1: reniting with biological family, and she shares some of her

33
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,000
Speaker 1: favorite resources for anyone wanting to learn more. If there's

34
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,760
Speaker 1: anything that resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

35
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,040
Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag tv

36
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:42,200
Speaker 1: G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much

37
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,960
Speaker 1: for joining us today, Judith, thank you for having me.

38
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,520
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. Yes, I'm very excited to chat with you.

39
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,040
Speaker 1: So we know that you know there are so many

40
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,280
Speaker 1: barriers to adoption, with especially in the US, and so

41
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,000
Speaker 1: it's very common that children will often end up in

42
00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,480
Speaker 1: homes that don't match their racial backgrounds. So I wanted

43
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 1: us to have a conversation today just about some of

44
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,320
Speaker 1: the considerations with that process, and you know, some of

45
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,519
Speaker 1: the mental health impact that can happen with somebody who

46
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,119
Speaker 1: has been adopted into a family that doesn't necessarily match

47
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,720
Speaker 1: their racial background. So probably the most prominent example that

48
00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,520
Speaker 1: we have with this right now is Randall from This

49
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:21,440
Speaker 1: is Us, right, you know. So, I think it has

50
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,240
Speaker 1: been really interesting, especially this season, to see them dig

51
00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 1: a little deeper into the ways that the adoption has

52
00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 1: played out into his life. And so can you talk

53
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 1: about some of the common experiences that people who are

54
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:38,240
Speaker 1: adopted into backgrounds that don't mess their racial background. Yeah, definitely.

55
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,800
Speaker 1: I want to preference real quick and say that I'm

56
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,119
Speaker 1: not from the adoption community myself, just a mental health

57
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,240
Speaker 1: who works with the adoption community and found our heart

58
00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 1: for it, and so I understand and I know that

59
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 1: all adoptees have different stories and so it's not a monolith, right,

60
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,600
Speaker 1: And in regards to the experiences of adoptees and the

61
00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,280
Speaker 1: families that they are in as well too, and so

62
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,400
Speaker 1: I just wanted to preference that and say and also

63
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,880
Speaker 1: say that some of the things that I draw from

64
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,000
Speaker 1: are just common thread that I pick up in the

65
00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: work that I've done with trans racial adoptees, common experiences

66
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,840
Speaker 1: that seem to pop up and to be expressed in

67
00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 1: the work that I do with them, and so that's

68
00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,160
Speaker 1: what I'll pull from, and some of them are very

69
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,160
Speaker 1: much in the show is Well too, This is Us

70
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,080
Speaker 1: with Randall's story, which I think is pretty awesome. One

71
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,960
Speaker 1: of the things that I think is and you see

72
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,480
Speaker 1: that a bit in the show, is this idea of

73
00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,880
Speaker 1: when you have adoptees who are of different racial background

74
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,920
Speaker 1: adopted into let's say, a predominantly white family, whether it

75
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,479
Speaker 1: be siblings or whether it be parents, what tends to

76
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 1: happen is the normalization of talking about race and how

77
00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,360
Speaker 1: it impacts the adoptee in any way. There's not necessarily

78
00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,520
Speaker 1: a lot of normalization around talking about race, racism, or

79
00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,320
Speaker 1: the cultural experiences of some of these transracial adopt ease.

80
00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,880
Speaker 1: And so a lot of the work that I've had

81
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,880
Speaker 1: to do with my families is just centering the conversation

82
00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 1: because I usually work with adolescent, more so adolescent transracial adoptees,

83
00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,240
Speaker 1: and bringing awareness to some of the issues that they

84
00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,960
Speaker 1: experience and being in their own skin and also not

85
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,160
Speaker 1: feeling a sense of belonging or familiarity or even representation

86
00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,400
Speaker 1: within their family and how that impacts them. And so

87
00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:27,919
Speaker 1: that's one of the common theme that I often have

88
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,160
Speaker 1: to center in my work with transracial adoptees. Are there

89
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,880
Speaker 1: other things that have come up? Yeah, I think racial

90
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:42,000
Speaker 1: identity development, understanding it, specifically white parents not really understanding

91
00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,560
Speaker 1: how racial identity is such a important concept and developmental

92
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 1: thing that happens with adolescents. And we all go through

93
00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,159
Speaker 1: some form of racial identity development, no matter what we

94
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,480
Speaker 1: identify culturally and racially or ethnically, but we all go

95
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,159
Speaker 1: through it. And so transracial adoptees they're experiencing it and

96
00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 1: oftentime experiencing it alone, and so they don't have someone

97
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,560
Speaker 1: to kind of walk through that process with them, especially

98
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,040
Speaker 1: if they identify as the only race in their family

99
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,239
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, and so that can be

100
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,719
Speaker 1: quite lonely. Two things can happen. I specifically worked with

101
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,800
Speaker 1: transracial adoptees and private pay treatment programs and residential programs,

102
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,280
Speaker 1: and so at that point, I'm working with families who

103
00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,839
Speaker 1: are in crisis, and so these adolescents they have like

104
00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 1: acting out behaviors and parents are concerned, and so by

105
00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,160
Speaker 1: the time they come to me, is having a conversation

106
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 1: of like, let's unpack what the acting out behaviors actually

107
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:43,119
Speaker 1: look like. It's not necessarily defiant behaviors or defiant disorders

108
00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,919
Speaker 1: like these stronger diagnosis is actually more so a problem

109
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,840
Speaker 1: that's happening systemically within the family system. Problem that's happening

110
00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,440
Speaker 1: even in their identity development, not having a safe space

111
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 1: to process some of them not having a person to

112
00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,279
Speaker 1: go to to talk to that is a representation that

113
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,520
Speaker 1: can help guide them. And what's happening is that those

114
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:10,000
Speaker 1: feelings at pain or that loneliness can sometimes become internalized

115
00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,720
Speaker 1: and then I mean it has to go somewhere. Often say,

116
00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,240
Speaker 1: you know, it comes outside ways, and that's where you

117
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,600
Speaker 1: have maybe some problematic concerning behaviors in that way. And

118
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,040
Speaker 1: so that's something else that I often have to center

119
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,920
Speaker 1: is just really being able to break down and identify

120
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,119
Speaker 1: what are these behaviors actually saying, because there's a story there,

121
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,640
Speaker 1: and that story is actually pointing to the family as

122
00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 1: a whole, not just the individual. And so I like

123
00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,760
Speaker 1: to stay away from the individual, right identifying like one

124
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,720
Speaker 1: person in a family that's the problem child or the

125
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 1: problem and we call that more like identified patient and

126
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,200
Speaker 1: shifting that and changing that to like, no, I think

127
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,320
Speaker 1: this is more of a problem situation here. I think

128
00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:53,400
Speaker 1: there's more relationship dynamics and patterns and how the external

129
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 1: factors are affecting the individual, and so the system and

130
00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,600
Speaker 1: the external factors have to change and bend and form

131
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,600
Speaker 1: and be flexible in order to help in the healing

132
00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 1: process of that individual. And then another part of it

133
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,120
Speaker 1: is that the realization when you really notice that you

134
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 1: are different. Oftentimes I touched to transration adoptees and they're like, yeah,

135
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,280
Speaker 1: for a good number of time, I just assimilated into

136
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 1: my family. There was no other culture, and so I assimilated,

137
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,840
Speaker 1: and sometimes that was from my benefit. And when they

138
00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,680
Speaker 1: talk about that, it's more so like if they are

139
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,680
Speaker 1: a person of color and they have white parents, but

140
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,839
Speaker 1: the white parents have privilege, and so they benefited from

141
00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,040
Speaker 1: some of that privilege due to proximity. But at the

142
00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,199
Speaker 1: same time it was very confusing because they were still

143
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,280
Speaker 1: a person of color, and in that lived experience in

144
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,840
Speaker 1: their skin, they often had to deal with microaggressions and

145
00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,680
Speaker 1: still racism, whether it be covert or over and the

146
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,760
Speaker 1: family didn't know how to make sense of that. They

147
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,200
Speaker 1: didn't know as a teenager or as a child, how

148
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 1: to make sense of that. And so that's another area

149
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,120
Speaker 1: we talked about too, is just what that's like for

150
00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,439
Speaker 1: them when they're dealing with some of these microaggressions and

151
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,920
Speaker 1: like COVID racism or even over and they're dealing with

152
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,520
Speaker 1: it by themselves. How's the family process that, how's the

153
00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,680
Speaker 1: parents processed done? So that's always a hard conversation to have, Yeah,

154
00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,559
Speaker 1: and I feel like we saw some of this really

155
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 1: in the most recent episode of This is Us Right

156
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,120
Speaker 1: with the conversation that Randall had with Kevin. I definitely

157
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,760
Speaker 1: think this is a special dynamic because they were all

158
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,720
Speaker 1: raised as triplets, right, you know, under those circumstances. But

159
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,560
Speaker 1: it definitely seems like the family, while in some ways

160
00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,160
Speaker 1: made efforts to you know, try to like meet other

161
00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,640
Speaker 1: black people and get questions answered, it also seems like

162
00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 1: they took the approach of he's just one of us, right,

163
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 1: without paying attention to some of these very special concerns

164
00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,560
Speaker 1: that he had. And so it's interesting to now see

165
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,319
Speaker 1: the dynamic and the stories that Kevin told himself about

166
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,160
Speaker 1: who his brother was as adults. Now, oh yeah, a

167
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,240
Speaker 1: hundred percent. I often even think abow to, Like there

168
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,640
Speaker 1: was one episode where it was the first episode of

169
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,640
Speaker 1: the season, and they did a pretty good job at

170
00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,120
Speaker 1: catching the episode up with everything that up with COVID

171
00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,200
Speaker 1: and the murders and Black Lives Matter movement. But I

172
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,440
Speaker 1: remember when everything was happening, Randall kind of distanced himself

173
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,240
Speaker 1: from his family, right, Like he stayed with his his

174
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,120
Speaker 1: family family, his wife and his kids, and he distanced

175
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,880
Speaker 1: himself from his adopted family in a way. And when

176
00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,199
Speaker 1: they did not know or understand why is Randall acting different?

177
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,840
Speaker 1: Why is it Randall being Randall of what we used

178
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,600
Speaker 1: to our version of Randall within our family. And I

179
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,360
Speaker 1: remember there was a scene in a moment where he

180
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,000
Speaker 1: was outside with his sister, and then his sister was

181
00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,240
Speaker 1: I can't believe what happened, Like sister's concern and you know,

182
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,199
Speaker 1: obviously expression her frustration about what was happening with the murders,

183
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:46,440
Speaker 1: and Randall said, like really, I've always experienced that that's

184
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,400
Speaker 1: always been happening. And then it shows a clip because

185
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,839
Speaker 1: the writers of This Is Us are so amazing and

186
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,199
Speaker 1: the way that they go back and forth. But they

187
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,200
Speaker 1: show a clip of when Randall was young and he's

188
00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,199
Speaker 1: in his living room by himself watching yet another order

189
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,880
Speaker 1: of a Blackmail on TV and what was happening. But

190
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,079
Speaker 1: he's by himself. His family isn't there. And so what's

191
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 1: so great about that storyline too, is that the writers

192
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,560
Speaker 1: that This Is Us are now starting to integrate these stories,

193
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,559
Speaker 1: not because they wanted to wait this far, but more

194
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,120
Speaker 1: so because there are connection with other writers to say, hey,

195
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,880
Speaker 1: you're missing a big part in the last few seasons

196
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,360
Speaker 1: that you've had where we don't talk about the story

197
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,480
Speaker 1: of the racial part of it. There's not really that much.

198
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,640
Speaker 1: It's now they're starting to get into it and show

199
00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,240
Speaker 1: it in light of everything that's happening. And so I

200
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,920
Speaker 1: feel like you're starting to even notice the awakening and

201
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,319
Speaker 1: understanding and the impact even from these writers who have

202
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,760
Speaker 1: had a show on display for several seasons now, which

203
00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 1: is I think it is interesting. So you mentioned, you know,

204
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,920
Speaker 1: some of the things that you commonly see with the

205
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,559
Speaker 1: clients that you've worked with, I'm wondering are there things

206
00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:55,439
Speaker 1: they should be anticipating and kind of potentially preparing for. Yeah,

207
00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,839
Speaker 1: I always say, like expectations, What are your expectations with adopting,

208
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:05,480
Speaker 1: what's the reason behind it? Of course, there's many reasons

209
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 1: behind adoption, and one of them being in fertility. And

210
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,240
Speaker 1: then another part of adoption is, you know, our society

211
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,240
Speaker 1: is evolving and it becoming more inclusive, and so you

212
00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,520
Speaker 1: are seeing more same sex marriages and partnerships and unions,

213
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,719
Speaker 1: and so there's a multiple reasons to why people are adopting.

214
00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,480
Speaker 1: And what I think is super important is to check

215
00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,679
Speaker 1: the expectations and reasons behind it, and have you thought

216
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,360
Speaker 1: about the reality of what adoption entails, what is the

217
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,880
Speaker 1: experience of the other person, the individual that you are adopting.

218
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,000
Speaker 1: There's something that I often talked about, is this idea

219
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,559
Speaker 1: of it's like this ambiguous loss that happens. And so

220
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,920
Speaker 1: adoption for some parents is an excitement, it's something to

221
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,559
Speaker 1: be celebrated, and there's so many emotions and so many

222
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,960
Speaker 1: experience as to why it's celebrated. Right and at the

223
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,080
Speaker 1: same time, it may be an excitement and celebration for

224
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,480
Speaker 1: one individual, which is the adopted family, But what about

225
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,720
Speaker 1: the adoptee. There's grief there, there's loss there, there's confusion there,

226
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,920
Speaker 1: there's questioning as well too in some ways. And that's

227
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,880
Speaker 1: not to minimize it or say that there is an

228
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,240
Speaker 1: excitement on the adoptees and there could very well be

229
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,439
Speaker 1: there as well too. It's this and both model rather

230
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,560
Speaker 1: than either or, But I think it's important to consider

231
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,520
Speaker 1: just like what's the narrative around adoption as well to

232
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,960
Speaker 1: how is it communicated? Is it allowing space for there

233
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,840
Speaker 1: to be multiple meetings where there is grief and sadness

234
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,520
Speaker 1: in this and at the same time there is some

235
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,600
Speaker 1: source of joy because we're gathering together as families as

236
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,200
Speaker 1: well too. There's that there's also when we're talking about

237
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,679
Speaker 1: I think it's equity. It is super important. And if

238
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,079
Speaker 1: you're looking at the child welfare system and the foster system,

239
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 1: there's so many blind spots and unfortunately, if I can

240
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,480
Speaker 1: say it as blatantly as possible, but there is a

241
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:57,240
Speaker 1: systemic racist mindset within that that it can be unintentional

242
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,160
Speaker 1: or intentional in a lot of ways. And so I

243
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,920
Speaker 1: think if we are as a family or as individuals

244
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 1: were choosing to adopt. I think it's very important to

245
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,120
Speaker 1: be aware or at least seek to understand the child

246
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,000
Speaker 1: wearfare system, the systems that play foster kids with their process,

247
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,680
Speaker 1: what they're going through. There's a lot of kids who

248
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,600
Speaker 1: are ripped away from their birth parents in a lot

249
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 1: of way. If you're talking about domestic adoption as well too,

250
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot of gray areas, a lot of things

251
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,640
Speaker 1: that people don't hear about or don't talk about. What's

252
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 1: often talked about an adoption is the great part, the

253
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,000
Speaker 1: exciting part, the joyful part, but people don't necessarily talk

254
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,520
Speaker 1: about the sad part about it in a lot of ways.

255
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,640
Speaker 1: And so I think it's important as adoptees or future

256
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:44,640
Speaker 1: adoptees to understand again the expectations around why you're adopting,

257
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 1: what's the reason behind it, like really by secting that

258
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 1: as a family with your partner, and then to to

259
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:56,480
Speaker 1: really try to seek understanding around how systemic racism and

260
00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,680
Speaker 1: even oppression in some ways have filtrated within the adoption

261
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,240
Speaker 1: sec and community as well too, whether it's unintentional or intentional.

262
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 1: Having a mindset around now, I think it's super important

263
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,320
Speaker 1: you brought up a really good point, Judith, just around

264
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,000
Speaker 1: making space for some of these more difficult feelings, Right, So,

265
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,400
Speaker 1: the grief and the sadness that can come up for

266
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,160
Speaker 1: the person being adopted. And I think something else that

267
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,200
Speaker 1: came up in this most recent episode of This Is

268
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,920
Speaker 1: Us is this feeling of having to be grateful for

269
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 1: having been adopted. Right. So you saw this conversation between

270
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,320
Speaker 1: Kevin and Randall, you know, and Kevin is saying like,

271
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 1: you should have just been grateful, like, you know, basically

272
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,120
Speaker 1: that mom and dad gave you a roof over your head, right,

273
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,200
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I would imagine that there needs

274
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 1: to be space made for that too, because, especially if

275
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 1: it's a young person being adopted, like this conflicting feeling

276
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 1: of being grateful that you have a home but also

277
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 1: said that you're not in the home that maybe you were,

278
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,560
Speaker 1: you're not with your birth family. I would imagine it's

279
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,760
Speaker 1: difficult to navigate. Oh yeah, definitely, I love that to

280
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,200
Speaker 1: acknowledge both of those stories, right. I remember how one

281
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 1: client say to me a narrative and it was it

282
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,720
Speaker 1: was a covert narrative within the family. Is one of

283
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 1: those family rules that my client was saved from something, right,

284
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,400
Speaker 1: just saved. Like I always heard that, you know, we

285
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,680
Speaker 1: saved you from something, so be grateful and and like.

286
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,840
Speaker 1: And this was the spiritual context was a big part

287
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,440
Speaker 1: of it, the Christian community. They're Christian, and so you know,

288
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,040
Speaker 1: God saved you for something and provides you another place

289
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,320
Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff. And I remember my client

290
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 1: looked at me and said, I keep hearing that, but

291
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,840
Speaker 1: I don't even know what did you save me from.

292
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what I was saved from. I was

293
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,040
Speaker 1: adopted when I was young. It's a close adoption, or

294
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,360
Speaker 1: it's an adoption that I don't have easy access to information,

295
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 1: whether it's not given to me or you know, or

296
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,360
Speaker 1: whatever it is. So these kids are told how to

297
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,240
Speaker 1: feel a lot of times, transracial adoptees are always being

298
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,000
Speaker 1: told you need to feel this way, you need to

299
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,040
Speaker 1: have this belief system, even down to the spiritual aspect

300
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 1: of it. Oh God saved you, so God knew this

301
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,800
Speaker 1: and this is specifically what it was supposed to be.

302
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 1: And you're saying that two kids they haven't even had

303
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 1: the ability to pry says the fact that they may

304
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,679
Speaker 1: experience some fears of abandonment, right the fear of abandonment,

305
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,399
Speaker 1: the fear of loss, and how that can perpetuate or

306
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,879
Speaker 1: that can be seen in all the little interactions that

307
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,280
Speaker 1: they have with other people in other relationships based on

308
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,119
Speaker 1: their attachment style. So and then it depends on what

309
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,359
Speaker 1: kind of trauma they experience pre adoption, because a lot

310
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,320
Speaker 1: of kids do experience a lot of trauma on neglect

311
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 1: or abuse in any kind of way. We're learning and

312
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,720
Speaker 1: we know it impacts adulthood. It impacts your attachment style,

313
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 1: impacts the way that you show up and build connection

314
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 1: with adults as you get older. And so if we're

315
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 1: telling kids who adopted that they need to feel, act

316
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,640
Speaker 1: or see the world or see their experience and their

317
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,600
Speaker 1: story in a specific way, and we're not giving them

318
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,000
Speaker 1: the autonomy and the space to process everything that they've

319
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,679
Speaker 1: gone through and things that they haven't made sense of,

320
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,640
Speaker 1: then what are we doing right? We're suppressing where we're

321
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,080
Speaker 1: causing kids to stuff things in and then again it

322
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 1: has to go somewhere and then it become unhealthy behavior patterns.

323
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Judith right after the break,

324
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 1: So Journey's I want to go back to something that

325
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 1: you mentioned, You know, because this is something that I've

326
00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,480
Speaker 1: kind of seen anecdotally, but you may know more of

327
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,600
Speaker 1: the numbers on this. It does seem that when we

328
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,400
Speaker 1: are talking about transracial adoptions, especially those that are like international,

329
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 1: there seem to be like related to like certain church groups.

330
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,880
Speaker 1: And I wonder, like, then, what is the messaging around

331
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,920
Speaker 1: like this saviorism? Right? Like you mentioned like saving these

332
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 1: kids from international spaces, and you know, I just really

333
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,440
Speaker 1: wonder about the dynamic of that, and you know what

334
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 1: kind of messaging kids in those kinds of situations might

335
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,320
Speaker 1: be getting about who they are and you know, the

336
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,879
Speaker 1: relationship they have with their family. Yeah, that's like a

337
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,840
Speaker 1: whole other conversation. I love that you brought that up,

338
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,800
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, how can be on a soapbox

339
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,080
Speaker 1: on that one? Savorism that is like the center of

340
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,719
Speaker 1: the adoption community in some ways the child fear warfare

341
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,320
Speaker 1: system as well. To what I can say is all

342
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,440
Speaker 1: of that is historical. A lot of that is historical.

343
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,760
Speaker 1: I do some presentations where I talk about the historical

344
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 1: context and there's a linkage. There is a sense of

345
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 1: linking the child wearfare system all the way back to

346
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 1: the start of social services in our history and the

347
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,680
Speaker 1: purposes of and who they work for. Social services were

348
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 1: not for people of color. They were for the working

349
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,640
Speaker 1: class European white family. So that's the start of social

350
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 1: services in that way, and the idea that if it

351
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 1: excluded certain people, then you had predominantly women of color

352
00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 1: who were impacted negatively by the lack of support. I mean,

353
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 1: all I gotta say is all of that connects all

354
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,120
Speaker 1: the way back to the history of our country, right

355
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,439
Speaker 1: in terms of slavery, in terms of the narrative of

356
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,679
Speaker 1: what communities and cultures look like or how they're viewed

357
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, and so that all impacts

358
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 1: and infiltrates the ways in which we have our systems,

359
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 1: including the child wearfare system, and savorism is one of them.

360
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,439
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we think of savoris and like, oh,

361
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 1: I just want to save someone and support them and

362
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,840
Speaker 1: give them like a roof over their head. I mean,

363
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 1: that's the new version I guess of saviorism, but it

364
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 1: still comes from the old idea of savorism is people

365
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 1: are savages. People are this, people are not responding in

366
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 1: adequate ways based off of a norm that's been established

367
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 1: within a culture in a society and so therefore we

368
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: need to save them from themselves. Like that's what savorism

369
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 1: hid looked like, is we need to save you from yourself.

370
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, in American history, Christianity was a big weaponized

371
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: tool in order to do that, right, and so we

372
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: are seeing in the transracial of option community, is this

373
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 1: idea of it's still embedded in me. I've had families

374
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 1: say we wanted to do international adoption because we were

375
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: fearful that the birth family would be involved. Right, So

376
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 1: this idea of we're going to completely cut off an

377
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: individual from everything that they belong to, right like the culture,

378
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,479
Speaker 1: the belief system, family, and we want them to just

379
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 1: be assimilated in this for saving them putting roof over

380
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: their head or putting clothes on them, even though it

381
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 1: may not look like, okay, we think that they're savages.

382
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: Sometimes I often wonder like, okay, what's like the implicit

383
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 1: bias there? There's something they're like, there's got to be

384
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: some implicit bias because we're seeing these little patterns still

385
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 1: within that. So you mentioned, Judith that one of the

386
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 1: things that can happen maybe later in life or even

387
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: for young people, is there's these traumatic experiences that we

388
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 1: can then see show up as things like anxiety and depression.

389
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,360
Speaker 1: I wonder if there are other mental health challenges that

390
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 1: need to be considered our things that can have up

391
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 1: and if there is not like a solid identity formation

392
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 1: or other challenges that people may have with the transracial

393
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 1: adoption experience. Yeah. One thing that I often think about,

394
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: and I talk about this often is when I think

395
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: about the label of oppositional defiant disorder or conduct disorder.

396
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 1: Most of the kids that I worked with, they they're

397
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 1: acting out was external, right, so they act out externally

398
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 1: rather than acting in, which can look like more of

399
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 1: like you know, some isolation depression within just separating self

400
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 1: and things like that, where the acting out is more

401
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 1: so you know, getting into legal difficulties, and you have

402
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: substance abuse in some ways as well too, although that

403
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 1: can be acting in as well. But I kind of

404
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: pushed against some of that a little bit because I

405
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: think oftentimes we're quick to label what the behaviors are

406
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 1: when really there's something else underlying it in that layer

407
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: of it. And so I often say, like we can

408
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 1: to slow down when it comes to conceptualizing and understand

409
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 1: what kids are experiencing, especially when it comes to identity.

410
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: I tend to always lump everything up into identity because

411
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: I think that's such a big part of human development

412
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: that we don't pay attention to that. Our European and

413
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: American worldview is about our logic is about science and

414
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 1: mathematical formulas. Right, it's either or and that's it. That's

415
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: our worldview. Where if you look at other cultures, diverse cultures,

416
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: their worldviews are very different. They're not this either or mathematicals,

417
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 1: more on intuition, is more on like this development of

418
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: interpersonal relationships. And so if these kids from different demographics

419
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: are coming from that worldview, but they're put within a

420
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: worldview in a family system that is more European and Eurocentric,

421
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: then there's the dynamic right there that you're seeing the shifting.

422
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: So there's more chances to diagnose to a kid being

423
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: identified patients saying that they're the problem, when really it's

424
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: a Again, it's the identity development formation that that's occurring

425
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: right in front of us, and families don't have the

426
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: tools and the skills or the ability to support that,

427
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: and so that looks like depression, and that can look

428
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: like anxiety. Those are the internalized stuff, but outward behaviors

429
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: we have to be so slow at placing the labels.

430
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: Dr Beverly Tatum, she talks about this idea of oppositional

431
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: social identity, and I love that, and she just basically said,

432
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 1: like a lot of times when you have kids who

433
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: are of color and they live in a predominantly white community,

434
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: a lot of times they're picking up social inferences since

435
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: they were young. They're picking up behaviors and how people

436
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: view them and how people see them, and sometimes their

437
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: opposition is actually against the society identity, the opposition towards

438
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: the dominant culture in front of them in order to

439
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: fit in and where they're at, And sometimes it means

440
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: over identifying with a different culture in some ways too.

441
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: And so I think there's just a lot of gray

442
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: areas when it comes to diagnosis and mental health that

443
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: we have to be very careful and being more mindful

444
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: of creating space to really think about all the little

445
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 1: gray a areas of identity development and interpersonal relationships and

446
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: representation in that kind of way. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, Judith,

447
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 1: I agree with you, like identity is a huge piece

448
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: and identity changes over time, right, You know, so it's

449
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: not like we do it once and then it's done.

450
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: So I think that there are important changes to be

451
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 1: paying attention to. And I'm curious if there are certain

452
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: things that you suggest, you know, when you're working maybe

453
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: with parents or even with you know, maybe older people

454
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: who are transracial adoptees about racial identity development, Like, are

455
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: there things that you suggest for helping them get in

456
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: touch with that? Yeah, one thing that's super important is

457
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: the first understanding racial identity development. It's a model, it's

458
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: not linear, it definitely takes its form, but understanding one's

459
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: own identity development. So it's not just people of color

460
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: or people of different gender identities or different sexual identities

461
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: that have this development. It's everybody, right, everybody. And so

462
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: sometimes if I'm working with an ultra culture family and

463
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,719
Speaker 1: there's a transracial adoptee. We have a really big Ethiopian

464
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: community here in Central Oregon where I'm at, and so

465
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm like, Okay, we're gonna look at the Ethiopian culture,

466
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: but we're also going to look at the culture of

467
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: the parents. It's like white and black is a social

468
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,959
Speaker 1: constructum in our society and our culture, and we know

469
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: what that was for that was for identifying who was

470
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: superior and whose inferior. There's a cast system there, right,

471
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: We all comprise of different cultures, different ethnicity, identities, belief systems,

472
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: you know, languages and rituals and stuff. And so, as

473
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: white parents, if you are just identifying yourself and have

474
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: identified yourself as just white and so, then that becomes

475
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: problematic because you're also upholding the narrative that that this

476
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: is the normal culture and everything around it is just

477
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: an alternative. Right, So even your child's culture is an

478
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: alternative to the normal culture. And so if we can

479
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: break that down, then that gives room for one year

480
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: child to see, oh, there's different cultures even within my family. Okay, great,

481
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: And also too gives them permission to be able to

482
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: find out what their culture is as well. To us,

483
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: I think that's super important is for my adoptive parents

484
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: to do their own work. Find out who you are,

485
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: go through your own journey of by day development. What

486
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: does that mean to you? Because the more you're able

487
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: to do that too, the more you're able to actually

488
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: see what your child needs in some aspects. The next thing, too,

489
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: is is seeking to learn getting around communities who are

490
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: talking about this, who are doing this work. There are

491
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: many podcasts, There are many adoptees who are especially in

492
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: the last year, who have I mean, decided to share

493
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: their story that that other part of it, that's not

494
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: about gratitude. They're stepping in and saying, hey, I love

495
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: my parents and it wasn't easy. At the same time,

496
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: this is what I went through as an adoptee, and

497
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: so positioning yourself to learn, learn more stories, learn the

498
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: experiences of adoptees, what they go through, so you can

499
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: be open to hearing it. And some of it is

500
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 1: not fun to hear. You know, it's hard to hear it,

501
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: But that's okay sitting with that because it doesn't change

502
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: the fact that they've been impacted, right, They've been impacted

503
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Another thing I think is

504
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: super important is again being able to have conversations with family.

505
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: I think sometimes what I've noticed is adopted families don't

506
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: necessarily have really important conversations with other like extended family members.

507
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: That plays a big part of it when you're bringing

508
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: when you're adopting, having conversations with extended family members around

509
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: the reality of like, okay, what does this mean for

510
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: the family, what is this child going to experience from

511
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: the external family? Right, what are boundaries that we need

512
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: to set up from the get go, or even right

513
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: now that we realize that we need to in order

514
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: to create a safer space from our adopted kids. And

515
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: then again really understanding racism and how it's how it's

516
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: impacted the field of of adoption and some of like

517
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: implicit bias. Understanding that and doing that where I think

518
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: there's so many resources, Like I can go on and

519
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: on and on there, it's so many resources. It's just

520
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: really being intentional about learning more from my conversation with

521
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: Judith right after the break, so you kind of alluded

522
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: to this, Judith about you know, I think a lot

523
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: of adopted children and you know, even not children, I'm

524
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: gonna have this idea of maybe wanting to be reunited

525
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: with their birth families, right, And so you know, we

526
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: saw this and this is us where Randall didn't even

527
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: recognize like what a hole in his heart there had

528
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: been left by the fact that he didn't know the

529
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: entirety of his birth story, right, and how he came

530
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: to be adopted. And so I love to hear your

531
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: thoughts about you know, people who may be considering like, Okay,

532
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: do I want to find my birth parents and maybe

533
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: some of the things that kind of consider around that,

534
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: and maybe some of the challenges they might experience kids,

535
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: teenagers and young adults. What I have come to realize

536
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: is that just because one adolescent is ready to just

537
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: dive in and learn everything about their birth family and

538
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: their history, doesn't mean that another kid older than that

539
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: or their age wants to do that too. And so

540
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: it kind of goes again back to you know, there's

541
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: not just one experience for the adopted community. Adoptees are

542
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: all different. Some kids I've worked with that decided no,

543
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to go there.

544
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: I'm not ready to go there, right, And that's where

545
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: they're at in their development stage, and that's where they're

546
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: atting their process and that's okay. So honoring that too

547
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: and making space, letting them know, you know, it's here

548
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: if you want to, and we're going to give you

549
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: space to be able to process that and whether you

550
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: want to. And then there's kids who who want to

551
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,959
Speaker 1: learn more. And one thing I saw as parents oftentimes

552
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: say they keep information. There's some information that's kept from

553
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: adopted kids because of age appropriateness and their ability to

554
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: process understand exactly what that even means. I get that,

555
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: and I've also seen parents withhold information more self for self.

556
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: It's because they feel like they know what is best

557
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: for a child, and so they choose to not give

558
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: the information to the child. It's like, I'm more lean

559
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say this is this is my opinion.

560
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: Maybe some other people feel differently. I lean more on

561
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: it is their right in their The respect you can

562
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: give them is giving them their information about their family.

563
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: If you need support on how to do that because

564
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: you don't know how to do that, then definitely search

565
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: for it right, getting a therapist someone who can help

566
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: the process, and having the conversation because maybe it's uncomfortable,

567
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: you don't know what to say. I get those things

568
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: that parents feel, but I think that it should be

569
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: something that should be on the table for kids to

570
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: have access to. It shouldn't be a secret. That's another

571
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: thing is when their secrets that is happening, that can

572
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: be damaging to your relationship with the child as well

573
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: to the development of that child and related sly and culturally,

574
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: athletically as well too, So I think that's super important.

575
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: So the other cool thing that I think that we've

576
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: seen this season when this is US is we see

577
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: what we've seen Randall in multiple phases of therapy, right,

578
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: So he's had a couple of different individual therapists, and

579
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: recently we've seen him join a transracial adoptee support group.

580
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: And so I'm curious to hear, you know, if there

581
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: are resources for people who might want to find these

582
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: kinds of things, and what might you be able to

583
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: expect in a transracial adoptee support group. Yeah, yes, there

584
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: are a lot of resources in that. There's some Facebook

585
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: groups as well too. I've noticed and seen transracial adoptees

586
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 1: who offer support groups. One of them is Angela Tucker.

587
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: She's a transracial adoptee and she centers the conversation and

588
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: the adoptees voice in a podcast and everything that she does.

589
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: She's an amazing resource in terms of like workshops or

590
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,959
Speaker 1: reading materials or things like that for the adoptee themselves.

591
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 1: There's you know, podcasts, there are unities online, is what

592
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: I'm seeing. Since we've all transitioned a little bit more

593
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: to online services. It's actually widened the resource pool for

594
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: people to connect with one another. I'm seeing the Instagram

595
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: there are a number of transracial adoptees that are like

596
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: creating support groups, even just content where you can just

597
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: roll and cashes and their stories. There's videos when they

598
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: see a video from another transracial adoptee that expresses something

599
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: that they've experienced their entire life and didn't have a

600
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 1: voice to it, and then they're pouring on Instagram like,

601
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you have no idea what your post

602
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: just did for me. And so that's I'm noticing. This

603
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: online support group has been very significant for a lot

604
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: of transracial adoptees in that way. I think with Randall's situation,

605
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: I loved his his He's even he even transitioned from

606
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: a white therapist to a black therapist, realizing that that's

607
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: what he needed again his development right, and in his

608
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: racial idea and development. The encounter honor of things right,

609
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: Encountering more and more of racism and police brutality in

610
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: the way that they showed it in the show pivoted

611
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: him to be like, Okay, I need to I need

612
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: to pay attention to this. I need to look at

613
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: this I'm realizing a need that I have that I

614
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: never focused on or or realized or even maybe voice.

615
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: Maybe it was always it was always there, I just

616
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: never voiced it, nor was there anything that gave me

617
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: permission to voice it. And then all of a sudden,

618
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: it sends him on a trajectory for a lot of things.

619
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: One thing I love about the show is that it

620
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: finally introduced the story of the birth mom, where previously

621
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: there was only one story, and it was actually a

622
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: problematic story. You have a black woman who was a

623
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: drug addict and supposedly died from drugs, right, and then

624
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: that's it. You didn't hear anything else. All you saw

625
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: was a quote unquote beautiful story between him and his

626
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: new adopted family. And so this time in this season

627
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: they shifted and changed it and started to introduce the

628
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: birth mom and and give life in a story to

629
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: the birth mom. The birth mom also had a life,

630
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 1: also had a story, She was human, right. It brought

631
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: some humanity to that part of his story, and he

632
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: starts to go to that trajectory of like wanting to

633
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: know more and more and more. And so I think

634
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: the best we can do is to support our teens

635
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: and adults to be able to do that, to feel

636
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: supported and not be alone in that process. And I

637
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: think that was something that I noticed that struck me.

638
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: Is so powerful about his experience with the transracial adopt

639
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: the group, and it sounds like the same thing is

640
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: happening with these Instagram accounts that you're talking about. Is

641
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: just the importance of the affirmation of like being seen

642
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: in somebody else's story, like, oh my gosh, I'm not

643
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: the only one who felt like that, exactly right. Representation

644
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: matters in so many different ways. You don't feel alone,

645
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: you don't feel like you're by myself because yeah, up

646
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: until now it has been just with Randall's story, right,

647
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: there hasn't been in a lot of interaction of in

648
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: terms of other people he's meeting that experience the same

649
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: thing with him. Yeah, that show is amazing. It just

650
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: shows the whole process. I love it does run the

651
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: gamut of different topics. So, Jude, if you have already

652
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: given us some incredible resources, are there any other resources

653
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: that you think are important for people to know about,

654
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: like any podcast in particular you can think of. Yeah,

655
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: so I have a pdf on my website that I

656
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: just put there that people can download. Yeah, and then

657
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: it has all the resources. It's podcasts, Facebook groups, it's

658
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: Instagram accounts, all the stuff. I can name one right now,

659
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: that's like one of my favorite go to podcasts. It's

660
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: the Adopting next Door Podcasts. That is probably one of

661
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: my favorite podcasts that I'm listening to, and that is

662
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: you're just hearing the stories of adoptees, transracial adoptees and

663
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: their stories and their experiences. It's amazing and it's hosted

664
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 1: by Angela Tucker. And so that's what I would say.

665
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, you can go on my website at Tryune

666
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: Health and Wellness and there's a pdf that has a

667
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: list of resources as well too. Okay, so can you

668
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: repeat your website as well as any social media handles

669
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: that you'd like to share. Yes, it's Trune Health and

670
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: Wellness dot com and Instagram handle is Triune Health and

671
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: Wellness Perfect and we will be sure to include all

672
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: of that in the show notes. Well, thank you so

673
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: much for all of this, Judith. I really appreciate you

674
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: having this conversation with us today. Yes, of course, thank

675
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,439
Speaker 1: you for having me. I'm so glad Judith was able

676
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 1: to share her expertise with us today to learn more

677
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: about her and the resources that she shared. Be sure

678
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls

679
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: dot com slash Session two oh seven, and stay tuned

680
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: for a very special part two of the conversation on Friday,

681
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: when I'll be chatting with Angela Tucker, who'll share about

682
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: her experiences as a transracial adoptee and the work she

683
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: does to move the conversations around transracial adoption forward. If

684
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure

685
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black

686
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to

687
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic, are just be in community

688
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: with other sisters. Come on over and join us in

689
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 1: the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet

690
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: design just for black women. You can join us at

691
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you

692
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: all so much for joining me again this week. I

693
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 1: look forward to continue in this conversation with you all

694
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,959
Speaker 1: real soon. Take it care