Speaker 1: I just reflect back on our mother and and we
Speaker 1: first of all, we weren't allowed not to do anything.
Speaker 1: We don't know what that is. If you lived in
Speaker 1: our house, you either work or go to school. You
Speaker 1: got up in the morning and you put your clothes on,
Speaker 1: even if you were sick. Yeah, you have to be really,
Speaker 1: really deathly sick, because even if you didn't feel well,
Speaker 1: she said, you will feel better once you get up
Speaker 1: and put your clothes on. You'll just feel better about yourself.
Speaker 1: What's up, everybody? I'm Gammy and this is positively gam
Speaker 1: Every week I have raw, in depth conversation with inspirational
Speaker 1: people pushing for change on everything from relationships, aging, politics, wellness,
Speaker 1: to the current issues facing the black communities. But in
Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to be discussing retirement. This week's
Speaker 1: guests are some ladies who have retired and then unretired
Speaker 1: into a new field. My older sister Karen, Karen started
Speaker 1: her work in the nonprofit sector and now in her
Speaker 1: retirement she's a realtor. And my friend Sibyl, who worked
Speaker 1: with the federal government and now works for a nonprofit.
Speaker 1: And then Wendy, who is also my dear friend, who
Speaker 1: was a nurse like me. We actually worked together and
Speaker 1: now she's a therapist. Welcome ladies to positively gam for
Speaker 1: having me. How are you guys doing. Wendy, how are
Speaker 1: you doing? I'm doing great. Adrian and Sivil, welcome back.
Speaker 1: This is your second time on the show. Second time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And Karen, what about you? How are you doing? I'm
Speaker 1: hanging in there. Are you thinking about changing your name? No? Uh,
Speaker 1: I am not. I am not. My hu is different
Speaker 1: from the Karens. They are referring to facts one one percent.
Speaker 1: I guess we'll just jumped right into it, because let'sten.
Speaker 1: Let's start with the definition that we found for retirement,
Speaker 1: which refers to the time in life when one chooses
Speaker 1: to permanently leave the workforce behind. And the traditional retirement
Speaker 1: age is sixty five. So what did you each envision
Speaker 1: for yourself that retirement would be like? In one sentence,
Speaker 1: what did you think your retirement was gonna be like?
Speaker 1: I never thought of retirement. I never thought I would
Speaker 1: be doing nothing. I always thought I would be doing something. Okay,
Speaker 1: what by at you? Sybil? I actually thought about permanently
Speaker 1: leaving one specific workplace and then starting another chapter. Okay,
Speaker 1: So you're karing you never really thought about a traditional
Speaker 1: retirement where you would just be chilling and relaxing, exactly, Wendy.
Speaker 1: I agree with the ladies. I never really thought about
Speaker 1: retirement in the sense of retiring because I hadn't hit
Speaker 1: you know, sixty yet retired youngest of us, So it
Speaker 1: just I never really thought about it. I guess I
Speaker 1: thought that I would definitely be doing something, not just
Speaker 1: sitting around. That's interesting. I wonder if that is like
Speaker 1: something just that is new for our generation or is
Speaker 1: it out of necessity? Do we need to work because
Speaker 1: everything is more expensive than it us back in the day,
Speaker 1: or are we healthier and more energetic with what do
Speaker 1: you think the cause of that is? I think there's
Speaker 1: a shift. There's actually a shift. You know, in the
Speaker 1: old days, you worked the job until you were of
Speaker 1: retirement age, and then you stayed home. You didn't do
Speaker 1: anything else. And I think that in today's world, some
Speaker 1: people retire and then become re employed somewhere else out
Speaker 1: of necessity. But also we have this thing where the
Speaker 1: forty is the new thirty, the fifties and new city,
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of thing, So we're not as
Speaker 1: sedentary unless we have to be anymore. So it's just
Speaker 1: starting another chapter. Because I've been retired for eighteen months
Speaker 1: from the federal government. However, I've been employee at the
Speaker 1: nonprofit for just a little over a year, and I
Speaker 1: still have a lot to contribute. Yeah. Absolutely, And I
Speaker 1: know for me, I was eligible for retirement from my
Speaker 1: former position in but of course, like I said, I
Speaker 1: wasn't thinking about retirement. I still had to work. So
Speaker 1: mine was a transition because I was still I was
Speaker 1: doing therapy while I was still doing my nursing job,
Speaker 1: So it was really just a matter of me transitioning
Speaker 1: from full time nursing to now full time therapy. So
Speaker 1: it might have been a little different. And I think
Speaker 1: in in thinking about retirement later on, of course, I
Speaker 1: thought about traveling. I didn't know if I was going
Speaker 1: to have grandchildren at the time. I really want to
Speaker 1: be active in my grandchildren's lives. Just chilling basically in
Speaker 1: terms of that, being able to do what I wanted
Speaker 1: to do, whatever that is, and just trying to figure
Speaker 1: out making meaning out of those years, but definitely not
Speaker 1: just sitting. Yeah, what about you, Karen, You know what
Speaker 1: listening to Wendy when she said, having a chance to
Speaker 1: be with your grandchildren and all that. One of the
Speaker 1: reasons I picked real estate is because I'm my own boss.
Speaker 1: So it's not like I'm doing a nine to five,
Speaker 1: which basically I couldn't do anyway because of my health
Speaker 1: because of lupus. But by having this job, I do
Speaker 1: what I as much as I want or as little
Speaker 1: as I want, and that was important I couldn't. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like I could take a full time nine to
Speaker 1: five job. I still through this COVID stuff helping my
Speaker 1: daughter out by watching her son two days a week.
Speaker 1: So it had to be flexible for me because I
Speaker 1: do want to travel. But like I said, I knew
Speaker 1: I was gonna always do something. Yeah, and I know
Speaker 1: for me, like I've retired from nursing twice, and originally
Speaker 1: it was to help Jada with the children and then
Speaker 1: actually when they got old, because now like Willow is
Speaker 1: the baby and she just turned twenty, so we have
Speaker 1: no more babies. But even once I started, once I
Speaker 1: stopped traveling with Willow when she was going on tour,
Speaker 1: I would still travel with her and once they didn't
Speaker 1: need me for that. Even when I came when I
Speaker 1: was home. Remember, Karen, we started with the silk Potta jewelry.
Speaker 1: We just started selling jewelry because oh yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I have us about Potter right now, and so does Wendy.
Speaker 1: Wendy has want some of my silk Potty earrings. But
Speaker 1: we we really just did that for fun and just
Speaker 1: for to give us something to do and give us
Speaker 1: some purpose. It wasn't anything that we really thought was
Speaker 1: going to be that financially lucrative for either of it.
Speaker 1: But it was fun. It was something to do. I
Speaker 1: just couldn't see myself just sitting home doing nothing. It
Speaker 1: just wasn't in the books for me. So Wendy, tell
Speaker 1: me when you realize that at the time was right
Speaker 1: for you to make this change from nursing, because I
Speaker 1: know for a while you had you were a little frustrated.
Speaker 1: And you know what, even before we get into that,
Speaker 1: I want to talk just a little bit about the
Speaker 1: difference between a job and a career, because there's a
Speaker 1: famous quote that you hear that says passion is the
Speaker 1: difference between a job and a career. But I also
Speaker 1: would say even more than that, it's not always necessarily
Speaker 1: pass but a job is just like going to work
Speaker 1: and getting a paycheck. But a career is more like
Speaker 1: when you have a job and experience and training that
Speaker 1: all along is helping you advance to your in your
Speaker 1: career path, your goals all along the way. So a
Speaker 1: career to me is more long term, a long term
Speaker 1: vision that you have for yourself. Agreed. So to answer
Speaker 1: your question, and I'm glad you framed it that way, Adrian,
Speaker 1: because of course I've been a nurse. That's what I
Speaker 1: originally went to school for, and at first I was
Speaker 1: on a career path. So in my nursing career I
Speaker 1: did several things. So I went from clinical nursing and
Speaker 1: then when I specialized in labor and delivery, that was wonderful.
Speaker 1: I was learning and I loved it, and then I
Speaker 1: went into management. From there, when I started working for Kaiser,
Speaker 1: I went into management, so that I felt was the
Speaker 1: path my career path. Then after doing several years, about
Speaker 1: seven years of management, I took a different position and
Speaker 1: it really worked. I was tired of management basically, and
Speaker 1: I took a different path in my career where it
Speaker 1: was very autonomous and I did like case management, so
Speaker 1: I was just responsible for myself. I was doing this.
Speaker 1: It was new, but that morphed into something else that
Speaker 1: was an internal issue, and I became the person to
Speaker 1: handle that internal issue. So it was an internally created position,
Speaker 1: if you will, not something you would look for on
Speaker 1: the outside. So as I did that job, it worked
Speaker 1: for my family life. I was able to still had
Speaker 1: basically like the nine to five, and I was able
Speaker 1: to do certain things. But then I started to realize
Speaker 1: several years into it that it wasn't fulfilling and I
Speaker 1: wasn't really interacting with people. I was sitting in front
Speaker 1: of a computer all day. I was using my nursing knowledge,
Speaker 1: but in a different kind of way. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: when I really became very i don't know, complacent, and
Speaker 1: I said this is not gonna work for me, Like
Speaker 1: this cannot be it and I need to work. And
Speaker 1: I've been with the company for so long it really
Speaker 1: wasn't anywhere for me to go outside of that. I
Speaker 1: was kinda I call it the golden handcuffs. I was
Speaker 1: so bested. My salary was great, I had great benefits,
Speaker 1: So you have to think about those kind of things.
Speaker 1: There's no point in me leaving now. And it was
Speaker 1: actually very difficult. I was pigeonholed and it was very
Speaker 1: difficult for me to move even within the company. So
Speaker 1: when I started trying things, what I realized is I
Speaker 1: need to have interaction with people. So I even thought
Speaker 1: about going back into clinical nursing, which is unheard of.
Speaker 1: Once you come out of clinical and you get to
Speaker 1: do other things for some people. So I'm not going
Speaker 1: back to the hospitals I did. I did just that
Speaker 1: My path were always, I think both of us were
Speaker 1: always in women's health, and so our journeys similar. I
Speaker 1: very quickly went into mid level management. We worked for
Speaker 1: Kaiser together. We were both clinical managers, and I got
Speaker 1: so sick of that. I just did not like it.
Speaker 1: But I had such a hard time going back to
Speaker 1: the bedside people. When I would go for interviews, people
Speaker 1: didn't believe that's what I wanted to do. And I
Speaker 1: was like, I absolutely want to be back at the bedside,
Speaker 1: and it's to your benefit to hire me because I
Speaker 1: have experienced both. I know how important it is to
Speaker 1: be a manager, but I also want to have the
Speaker 1: not edge to go back to the bedside. It was
Speaker 1: difficult for me to get a job back at the
Speaker 1: bedside people were like, I couldn't believe it. I remember
Speaker 1: because you had said you had always wanted to do
Speaker 1: L and D and I was like, go for it.
Speaker 1: But trying to get back then because you didn't have
Speaker 1: that recent experience, it was almost like the doors were locked. Yes,
Speaker 1: I had to retrain, but I'm telling you, it was
Speaker 1: one of the most satisfying jobs that I ever had.
Speaker 1: I absolutely loved being at the bedside, and it had
Speaker 1: it not been for my personal circumstances and with my grandkids,
Speaker 1: I would have I'd still be nursing today. That's how
Speaker 1: much I loved it. I really loved it. What about you, Karen,
Speaker 1: You retired from running the corporation, running um the foundation
Speaker 1: and then made a decision to go into real estate,
Speaker 1: and you had to retrain, Like it's two different worlds.
Speaker 1: You didn't know anything about real estate and the way
Speaker 1: I got into it because I was at a crossroads
Speaker 1: where I really didn't know what I was gonna do.
Speaker 1: And Whitney, my daughter had been laid off, and she said,
Speaker 1: my im going to take a real estate class and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, because we spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time online looking at their houses. Yes, we we just
Speaker 1: loved looking at houses. I just we just loved looking
Speaker 1: at because she's at a point where in her family
Speaker 1: like that she's going to have to move. So we
Speaker 1: just loved looking the house. And I said, Oh, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do it too. Nobody told me it was that hard.
Speaker 1: It's very hard. Let me tell you that real estate
Speaker 1: thing is no joke. And I'm blessed because I have
Speaker 1: a broker. My mentor is my broker, and if it
Speaker 1: weren't for her, I probably wouldn't have continued. But she
Speaker 1: has and really supportive. But it allows me to still
Speaker 1: have contact with people because I'm like you when the
Speaker 1: I I need to have contact with people. Having worked
Speaker 1: in the community, basically I was a community organized I
Speaker 1: moved up into the roles that I had, but that
Speaker 1: was basically what I My career was was community organizing,
Speaker 1: just like the Rock the Girl. Uh, now what about
Speaker 1: you civil because you went from from the government into nonprofit,
Speaker 1: which that was different too. Yes, and that's not what
Speaker 1: I saw. That's not what your original plan was. No,
Speaker 1: it was not, Adrian. I had started looking at my
Speaker 1: retirement figures ten ten years before I retired, figuring out
Speaker 1: what my income was gonna be. I worked for the
Speaker 1: federal government. I moved up to the highest grade level
Speaker 1: in the federal government, which of course was management, And
Speaker 1: at five years before I retired, I knew I was
Speaker 1: gonna leave in five years? Was that because you looked
Speaker 1: looked at the numbers and you felt like financially it
Speaker 1: was okay for you to do for you were just
Speaker 1: sick and tired and you needed to be done, and
Speaker 1: you need to figure out how you could do that. Well,
Speaker 1: it was actually both. It was actually both, But I
Speaker 1: would say it was more that I was ready to stop.
Speaker 1: By the time I left the federal government, I had
Speaker 1: a team of thirty six managers over three hundred fifty employees,
Speaker 1: and I had just felt that I had made as
Speaker 1: much of a contribution as I could and as I
Speaker 1: was willing to make in search of having some meaning
Speaker 1: in my life. So prior to retiring, I am arked
Speaker 1: on a journey with the Center from my Body Medicine,
Speaker 1: and I began to receive training in teaching meditation, various
Speaker 1: modes of meditation, all the didactic or medical physiological benefits
Speaker 1: that go along with that, as well as the spiritual
Speaker 1: and emotional benefits that go along with the various types
Speaker 1: of meditation and practicing. And so my initial plan was
Speaker 1: to become certified and work with that particular group of people. However,
Speaker 1: I put that training on home. My mom got sick.
Speaker 1: We had to take care of her, and so my
Speaker 1: thing was I was going to retire, do my certification
Speaker 1: and just run meditation groups, stress management groups, resilience groups,
Speaker 1: things of that nature that help people heal and help
Speaker 1: people move forward. And what happened was six month before
Speaker 1: I retired, because I am in recovery in a twelve
Speaker 1: step program of over thirty one years, I was exposed
Speaker 1: to the peer recovery movement, which is a relatively new
Speaker 1: movement where you have people with life experiences, whether directly
Speaker 1: through addiction or as an ally maybe a family member
Speaker 1: or close person suffered from the disease of addiction, and
Speaker 1: we received this peer recovery training so that we can
Speaker 1: support people that want to recover. And through completing that training,
Speaker 1: I was introduced to the nonprofit that I worked at today,
Speaker 1: which is a supportive housing program for families that are
Speaker 1: in the reunification process of getting their children back. Their
Speaker 1: children were removed due to their substance use, and it's
Speaker 1: about for me, it was about finding some meaning, making
Speaker 1: a contribution, using my own life skills in order to
Speaker 1: do that. But let me tell you was funny about that.
Speaker 1: I started there in that vein. However, my executive leadership
Speaker 1: skills kicked in. I tried not to I tried not
Speaker 1: to do it. Really did not want another career, couldn't
Speaker 1: not take charge get a job, and I couldn't do it.
Speaker 1: And so COVID came and I worked at home for
Speaker 1: a couple of months, and in those couple of months,
Speaker 1: I wrote a proposal to add value to the infrastructure
Speaker 1: of the organization. So of course when I presented it,
Speaker 1: I was no longer serving as a mentor. I moved up.
Speaker 1: Now I worked directly for the director of that nonprofit.
Speaker 1: Wow nice, Now when did you actually had to go
Speaker 1: back to school? All of you had to get additional training,
Speaker 1: But I think yours, Wendy, was a bit more intense. Yes,
Speaker 1: it was, and it was never in my nursing. School
Speaker 1: was like a hazing and I was like, I'm never
Speaker 1: going back to school. So yeah, that was challenging. I
Speaker 1: was years old and I had been out of school
Speaker 1: for many years. For me, this was a calling on
Speaker 1: my life. That's what I realized. It was appalling on
Speaker 1: my life. And my girlfriend and former coworker, Renee. Karen
Speaker 1: and Adrian both know Renee. She was the one that
Speaker 1: said to me one day she said, you know what,
Speaker 1: she said, I'm gonna say this to you, and I
Speaker 1: know you may not want to hear it. She said,
Speaker 1: but I really think that you should consider counseling or
Speaker 1: therapy or something, just based on our relationship and how
Speaker 1: she sold me interact with other people. And I had
Speaker 1: heard that before, but it was like whatever, And she said,
Speaker 1: but she said it may require that you go back
Speaker 1: to school. And I was like, then that's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1: Let's not talk about that in more because I'm not
Speaker 1: going to do it. But after a series of events,
Speaker 1: it was just really interesting. That's what kind of got
Speaker 1: it going. That conversation that we had sitting there at work,
Speaker 1: miserable on our jobs, and it started a series of
Speaker 1: events that was amazing, that was truly amazing. And I
Speaker 1: had actually gone through a slight depression because not a
Speaker 1: slight depression, I was depressed because I was trying to
Speaker 1: get back into clinical I had applied for a job
Speaker 1: within Kaiser, which actually was the job that I started
Speaker 1: in back in when I started working there, and I
Speaker 1: got the position, and then twenty four hours later they
Speaker 1: froze the position and decided that they were not going
Speaker 1: to fill it after they offered it to me. So
Speaker 1: that was in November of and I really spiraled down
Speaker 1: after that. I was like, what am I gonna do?
Speaker 1: Because I figured I'm gonna being at least until I'm
Speaker 1: sixty two or sixty five, and I was fifty one.
Speaker 1: I said, I cannot do this for the next fourteen years.
Speaker 1: That's just not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. And
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was going to do. So
Speaker 1: I figured, you know what, I have to change my
Speaker 1: attitude about this. I've got to find meaning and purpose
Speaker 1: in my life outside of this because I have to work.
Speaker 1: So what am I gonna do? And it took me
Speaker 1: several months before I figured it out, And when it
Speaker 1: hit me, I said, oh my gosh, I may have
Speaker 1: to go back to school. So then I put all
Speaker 1: this criteria on going back to school, like I'm not
Speaker 1: taking a g r E. I'm not gonna do this.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do that. I had to look for
Speaker 1: a program I don't know how I'm gonna pay for.
Speaker 1: There were all these things, but then all the doors
Speaker 1: just slowly started to open up, and I can say
Speaker 1: to you ladies, going back to school. I wound up
Speaker 1: going back at I had us turned fifty two, so
Speaker 1: I was contemplating all this at fifty one going on
Speaker 1: fifty two, and in I went back full time school,
Speaker 1: full time work. I had to do clinical rotation, like
Speaker 1: the whole nine yards. But everything worked out to the
Speaker 1: point where I never took out a student loan. I
Speaker 1: had a child in college, and I had a child
Speaker 1: in private high school, and I did not. I paid
Speaker 1: for my education, my my graduate education through scholarships and
Speaker 1: through the job, your wish and reimbursement, because everything just
Speaker 1: opened up. So it was something I never thought I
Speaker 1: would do, and it actually turned out being I did
Speaker 1: three years and then I had to do post graduate
Speaker 1: work to get my clinical hours, so it was a
Speaker 1: five year journey. It was a five year journey. Did
Speaker 1: either of you care and or simple did either of
Speaker 1: you experience any because Wendy was talking about going through
Speaker 1: a bit of a depression and this satisfaction with the
Speaker 1: job that she was in and trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what was gonna be next for her. Did either of
Speaker 1: you ever experience anything like that? Did not, Adrian, because
Speaker 1: what happened for me was when I went to my
Speaker 1: first Now, mind you, I had been researching my retirement
Speaker 1: to make sure that I could live outside of there.
Speaker 1: And when I went from my first training with the
Speaker 1: Center for my Body Medicine, it was just for self
Speaker 1: fulfillment and and self exploration. However, the training just impacted
Speaker 1: me so intensely that when I left there, I knew
Speaker 1: I was going to retire and I knew I would
Speaker 1: do something to help people. Yeah, did you ever get
Speaker 1: discouraged Karen as you were going through all that still,
Speaker 1: because that real estate and getting preparing for the exam
Speaker 1: and all of that, it just seemed like a lot.
Speaker 1: It was a lot, and I couldn't in the middle
Speaker 1: of it. I was like, what are you doing? Because Wendy,
Speaker 1: I went back to school to get my pH d. Oh,
Speaker 1: my goodness, years before I'm a b D. I'm a
Speaker 1: b D. Oh wow, Okay, but I got sick. That's
Speaker 1: when I got lupus and and it turns out that
Speaker 1: the doctor said that the stress of going back is
Speaker 1: what put me over the edge, because that was oh
Speaker 1: my goodness, it was something else. But anyway, yeah, I
Speaker 1: doing that real estate. I was like, oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: what in the world am I doing now? But again
Speaker 1: I had it. Turns out where I was taking my
Speaker 1: classes is the agency I ended up with, and it
Speaker 1: was a black woman who was teaching the class, and
Speaker 1: it's a black woman who runs my agency. She's the broker.
Speaker 1: And that made all the difference in the world because
Speaker 1: I had support, you know that, and and both of
Speaker 1: them to this day. And like I said, my broker
Speaker 1: is just she's just an angel. It's a bit of
Speaker 1: a challenge for people to when they think about retirement
Speaker 1: and think about the possibility of doing something else, is
Speaker 1: to really find what that something else is. Absolutely yeah,
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's hard to actually figure out what it
Speaker 1: is that you want to do and what can really
Speaker 1: work for your life now, considering you may have health issues,
Speaker 1: considering your family responsibilities. I know Phelps was always supportive
Speaker 1: of what you wanted to do, Karen, And I know
Speaker 1: he's always been supportive or anything. I want to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and of course Wendy like that. It goes without saying
Speaker 1: Richard is like your rock, So I'm sorry, Richard is
Speaker 1: Wendy's husband. Guys, I forgot to met to the listeners. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You said something earlier about passion, which is so true.
Speaker 1: If you're going to whether you want to call it
Speaker 1: a second career, retirement, whatever, it is truly about finding
Speaker 1: meaning and purpose in your life and doing what you
Speaker 1: passionate about. So although I went back to school and
Speaker 1: I am doing counseling now and I am working for myself,
Speaker 1: I am my own business owner like you, Karen, that
Speaker 1: makes all the difference in the world because at this
Speaker 1: point now that I have my own practice, while I
Speaker 1: was doing my clinical hour with my postgraduate work, I
Speaker 1: did work for something else. And it's so freeing to
Speaker 1: be able to work for myself. So it feels like
Speaker 1: retire And although I'm working, but I love what I do.
Speaker 1: When I wake up in the morning, Seriously, when I
Speaker 1: wake up in the morning and I think about the
Speaker 1: fact that I can go to my office as well,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to my office now, but that I'm
Speaker 1: doing what I love. I'm talking to people all day long,
Speaker 1: like that's right up my alley, and I I love it,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't really feel like a job. There are
Speaker 1: aspects of it, of course that I don't like, the
Speaker 1: business aspect. I have to do billing, I have to
Speaker 1: write notes and all those things and keep up with
Speaker 1: everything and talk to my taxman, which stresses me totally out.
Speaker 1: But I love what I am doing, and so it
Speaker 1: does not feel like a job. I can do this
Speaker 1: really literally until I close my eyes finally, so it
Speaker 1: won't feel like this. So I can work as much
Speaker 1: as I want, or I can scale back, and that's
Speaker 1: what makes the difference. Let's talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 1: What boundaries have the three of you set for yourselves
Speaker 1: in this new career opportunity, Because I know that that
Speaker 1: there have been some boundaries. I'm embarrassed to say that
Speaker 1: as I speak to people about boundaries every day all day.
Speaker 1: It has been challenging because I work a lot, and
Speaker 1: I think I feel this commitment two people to to
Speaker 1: really help people, so it's difficult for me to say no.
Speaker 1: So I've done different things. I've worked a lot, I've
Speaker 1: changed my schedule a couple of times to try to
Speaker 1: factor in time for myself and all these things. But
Speaker 1: it's still I have to be honest, it's a work
Speaker 1: in progress. It really is a work in progress to
Speaker 1: carve in that time for self reflection, self care, and
Speaker 1: self care is just not about getting your hair and
Speaker 1: nails done. It's really what symbol was talking about, just
Speaker 1: being able to relax and think and meditate and do
Speaker 1: some other things. Family time, quality time with my husband.
Speaker 1: You have to really think about it. You have to
Speaker 1: really think about it. So I'm still working on it.
Speaker 1: That's what I'll say. What do you say about that here?
Speaker 1: And as far as setting boundaries for yourself, because of
Speaker 1: the type of industry in real estate, it's ebbs and flows. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm just about done until January. Nobody's really I've got
Speaker 1: a couple of things that will be settling, but nobody
Speaker 1: is putting their house on the market. Don't jump to
Speaker 1: that so quick, just putting you unnoticed. Moving on, civil
Speaker 1: what did you have something that you Because I'm just
Speaker 1: leaving her, I'm just dropping that little nugget there for her.
Speaker 1: I will just dropped that right there. Okay, alright, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I agree with Wendy. I think that when you're doing
Speaker 1: something that you're passionate about. The challenge is to establish
Speaker 1: boundaries and maintain them. So for me, every day I
Speaker 1: have to say I'm going in it's such certain a time,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to leave at a certain time. And
Speaker 1: I started out working three days a week, and I
Speaker 1: moved to four days a week, and I I refused
Speaker 1: to go to five days a week. And so it's
Speaker 1: incumbent upon me to continue to have that conversation with
Speaker 1: myself that I'm only gonna work four days a week.
Speaker 1: I'm only going to work eight maybe ten hours a day,
Speaker 1: and then the rest of the time is for me.
Speaker 1: But it's a juggling act because when you're doing things
Speaker 1: that you enjoy, that you're passionate about, it's hard to
Speaker 1: cut it off. It's you agree, I told really agree
Speaker 1: with what you're saying, and you're starting. You started at
Speaker 1: three days. I started at six days a week. I
Speaker 1: was working Sunday through Friday, and I had to I
Speaker 1: I didn't stop doing that until May. This past May
Speaker 1: is when I just said, Okay, I'm not working Sundays anymore.
Speaker 1: I'm just I have to stop. I had to make
Speaker 1: a hard stop, and I talked to some of my
Speaker 1: clients and put them in the schedule during the week,
Speaker 1: and people understood that. And I, as I reflect upon it,
Speaker 1: I don't even know how I did that for so long.
Speaker 1: So now I'm working five days a week. One of
Speaker 1: these days I'll cut back. I'm expecting my first grandchild
Speaker 1: in February, so I know that's gonna that's gonna force
Speaker 1: me to do some things different congratulation. Yeah, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you. That's gonna that's gonna be really interesting having
Speaker 1: all of you in the house. That's gonna be a
Speaker 1: lot of changes, a lot of changes. So have we
Speaker 1: really answered the question though, of what draws us all
Speaker 1: back into the workforce? Though? Have we really answered that? Meaning?
Speaker 1: And purpose? Meaning? Purpose? And it could be financial definitely,
Speaker 1: Like Climble was saying, she was looking at Okay, I've
Speaker 1: been working all these years, invested with the government. I
Speaker 1: can retire in five it you have to figure out
Speaker 1: whether or not you can lived. So that's real. That's
Speaker 1: absolutely real. And the fact that she looked at that
Speaker 1: five years ahead of time, and I was looking at
Speaker 1: that also, I knew, but I had several more years
Speaker 1: to work, So I had particular financial goals in mind
Speaker 1: my husband and I collectively in terms of making sure
Speaker 1: are we still gonna be in a mortgage? Both times
Speaker 1: of things, I was still educating children, so I had
Speaker 1: some other things that were challenging knowing that I needed
Speaker 1: to continue. But I will tell you this, I am
Speaker 1: fifty nine now, I'll be sixty in June. These next
Speaker 1: five years we're going down downhill in terms of everything,
Speaker 1: just making sure that financially we are set. So doing
Speaker 1: this work, it will be because I want to, not
Speaker 1: because I had to. Yeah, I agree, I agree with you, Wendy,
Speaker 1: and I think that part of my preparation for retirement
Speaker 1: was actually a shift. I had to shift the way
Speaker 1: I was looking at things. I had to shift the
Speaker 1: way I looked at my finances. I was blessed to
Speaker 1: be under the old retirement system with the federal government,
Speaker 1: and I retired at thirty seven years of service. However,
Speaker 1: if I had retired at forty one years of service
Speaker 1: in eleven months, I would have received eighty percent of
Speaker 1: my salary. So that is the way that it worked
Speaker 1: under the old system. So I was blessed in that vein.
Speaker 1: But this is a little joke that I had to
Speaker 1: myself to prepare for that in my mind, because if
Speaker 1: we can put everything down on paper, but I had
Speaker 1: to prepare my mind. And I would tell them I'm
Speaker 1: leaving and I don't care if I got to live
Speaker 1: in the projects. I'm out of here. And once I
Speaker 1: lowered those expectations and mind you, I used common sense.
Speaker 1: I accounted for all of the expenses that I had,
Speaker 1: but I actually ended out better than I was when
Speaker 1: I was working. I could have gotten a larger pensant
Speaker 1: and I stayed longer, but I was at a place
Speaker 1: where I was comfortable. And Wendy keeps talking about purpose
Speaker 1: and meaning, and I wanted to flip the scale on that.
Speaker 1: I wanted the focus on the finances to be less
Speaker 1: and the focus on the purpose and meaning to be greater,
Speaker 1: and just trusting in my higher power that everything was
Speaker 1: gonna be okay, my needs were gonna be met. It's
Speaker 1: a whole mindset that has to shift, absolutely absolutely, because
Speaker 1: after you work for so long and you're giving, and
Speaker 1: you're doing it because you absolutely have to take that
Speaker 1: load off. It's a wonderful feeling. It's just so much
Speaker 1: more meaningful if you will I keep using that word yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm very empowering exactly. Yeah, what would you say to that, Karen,
Speaker 1: Because I feel like in your circumstances, not so much
Speaker 1: that the idea of purpose, but just really something that
Speaker 1: is but plus financially and just something to keep you busy,
Speaker 1: and just something that you enjoy even though it's difficult.
Speaker 1: It's not like it's a day at the park all
Speaker 1: the time, but there's not so much pressure. I would say,
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about this. I just reflect back on
Speaker 1: our mother and and we first of all, we weren't
Speaker 1: allowed not to do anything. We don't know what that is.
Speaker 1: We were not allowed not if you lived in her house,
Speaker 1: you either work or go to school. You got up
Speaker 1: in the morning and you put your clothes on, even
Speaker 1: if you were sick. Yeah, you had to be, definitely,
Speaker 1: you had to be really deathly sick, because even if
Speaker 1: you didn't feel well, she said, you will feel better
Speaker 1: once you get up and put your clothes on. You
Speaker 1: just feel better about yourself. And I don't think she
Speaker 1: would have retired had she not gotten thick. I agree
Speaker 1: she retired, you know, in her sixties, but it was
Speaker 1: because she had can's to and she immediately started doing
Speaker 1: things to keep herself busy. She tried, she went on
Speaker 1: her bucket list, she did her bucket list. But my
Speaker 1: thing was that's how we were raised. We were raised
Speaker 1: that we you have a purpose. You're supposed to make
Speaker 1: the world better by your presence, and I do that
Speaker 1: through my volunteer work. I'm on board, community boards and
Speaker 1: things like that. So it's always in the back of
Speaker 1: my mind, what do you get ready to do? What
Speaker 1: are we doing today? What's on the list? One of
Speaker 1: I just can't imagine not having some purpose and something
Speaker 1: that I'm supposed to be doing. Let me ask, did
Speaker 1: you all We might have touched on this a little bit,
Speaker 1: but did you all feel intimidated any going back to
Speaker 1: school at an older age? Did you feel like you
Speaker 1: were challenge keeping up if the younger students, or were
Speaker 1: you in a situation where most of the people in
Speaker 1: the courses or in the classes were of similar age.
Speaker 1: For me, interestingly enough, I was very intimidated just about
Speaker 1: going back to school period for several reasons. But when
Speaker 1: I got there, I was pleasantly surprised with the mean age.
Speaker 1: There were people I would I don't really know what
Speaker 1: the mean age was but there were adults and a
Speaker 1: lot of people were coming back for second careers. When
Speaker 1: we started talking to each other and just the introduction
Speaker 1: with the cohort was like, wow, I wasn't alone. We
Speaker 1: did have a few young people that were coming straight
Speaker 1: out of undergrad into graduate school, but there were more
Speaker 1: of us than there were of them, I would have
Speaker 1: to say that. So I got comfortable with that idea
Speaker 1: of being there. Now I was in the older range.
Speaker 1: I would say most of the people were probably late
Speaker 1: thirties to mid forties, and then there were those of
Speaker 1: us who were in that second half of life where
Speaker 1: you have more years behind you than you do ahead
Speaker 1: of you. So there was a nice mixture. So I
Speaker 1: got comfortable. Probably after the first semester, I started to
Speaker 1: get a little more comfortable. What about you said, I
Speaker 1: didn't have the experience of being intimidated by age with
Speaker 1: the Center for Mind, Body Benison, but I was intimidated
Speaker 1: by the credentials of my classmates. And I have my
Speaker 1: mentor who would always tell me they bought those credentials
Speaker 1: what you have money camp buy. But I was very
Speaker 1: intimidated being an alternative healing training like that with surgeons
Speaker 1: and psychiatrists and therapists and this credential and that credential,
Speaker 1: and here I am. I had none of that, but
Speaker 1: I had life experiences, and I had something that was
Speaker 1: natural in me to give to others, and I really
Speaker 1: just needed someone from the outside to help me see
Speaker 1: that let me see. Yeah, I would say I was
Speaker 1: intimidated just because of the I've never been good at math,
Speaker 1: and so the older I got, the more difficult. But
Speaker 1: like I said, I took the class of my daughter,
Speaker 1: so it was like, all right, helped me out here.
Speaker 1: And it was the same way when I went to
Speaker 1: grad school. We had a mixture, just like you were
Speaker 1: talking about, Wendy, and we would have study groups, and
Speaker 1: the younger people would be for like statistics, which I
Speaker 1: think is just cruel. It's just it's not fair, it's
Speaker 1: not right, and because I just just that was just
Speaker 1: beyond my comprehension. But we had the younger people were
Speaker 1: there that would help us. Yeah, And I know for myself,
Speaker 1: I have to say, obviously, I'm very clear that if
Speaker 1: it was not for my family connections, I would not
Speaker 1: be in the be blessed to be in the position
Speaker 1: that I'm in now. I'm very clear on that, but
Speaker 1: also recognizing the intimidation for me because if my entire
Speaker 1: family is already in the business and so I was
Speaker 1: a newbie, and I still feel like I'm coming in
Speaker 1: really not knowing anything and then having to adjust and
Speaker 1: try to live up to you know, who they are,
Speaker 1: live up to their names. You're doing a great job
Speaker 1: with thank you. But you know what I thought about Karen.
Speaker 1: I thought about mommy because remember when she used to
Speaker 1: do People Are Talking with Richard Share in Baltimore, Maryland.
Speaker 1: It was a talk show that came on in Baltimore,
Speaker 1: Maryland many years ago, and my mother was a regular
Speaker 1: contributor to that. She was on the panel. Awesome. I
Speaker 1: had totally forgotten about that. I remembered it the other day. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But anyway, one last question. I want to ask one
Speaker 1: final thought that I want to have when when we're
Speaker 1: talking about careers and jobs, is there any advice that
Speaker 1: you would offer young people when they're considering a job
Speaker 1: or career path, because what I hear now so frequently
Speaker 1: and even in my family, is that young people that
Speaker 1: have gone to school, grad to wait and graduated, gotten
Speaker 1: their degrees and still are very dissatisfied with their job,
Speaker 1: and I feel like it's because they have a job
Speaker 1: and not a career. But I don't really know how
Speaker 1: to guide people on that, and it always comes back
Speaker 1: to me, you gotta figure out what it is that
Speaker 1: you want to do, what is it that you like,
Speaker 1: What is it that you're doing in your life that
Speaker 1: you enjoy. And I always enjoyed medicine. I went to
Speaker 1: the hospital with my dad when he was making rounds.
Speaker 1: I would sit at the dinner table with my because
Speaker 1: my sister was married to a doctor at one time,
Speaker 1: and I would sit at the dinner table with that
Speaker 1: and he was an obstetrician in Baltimore, one of the best,
Speaker 1: and I just enjoyed those conversations. So when it came
Speaker 1: time for me to decide on a career, I started
Speaker 1: out as a medical secretary and then eventually moved on
Speaker 1: into nursing, So it wasn't really all that difficult for me.
Speaker 1: But I just feel like people go to school and
Speaker 1: then they graduate and it was like they're getting degrees
Speaker 1: and coming out their jobs don't have anything to do
Speaker 1: with what they going to school for, because they just
Speaker 1: they're just getting the job because they gotta there. They're
Speaker 1: ready to get out and live their life, but they're
Speaker 1: very unsatisfied. But you know what, the kids are trained
Speaker 1: and drilled into just graduate and go to college and
Speaker 1: there other things. I agree Karen, And for me, it
Speaker 1: was a mistake for me to go to college. It
Speaker 1: was a big mistake. It took me twenty years to
Speaker 1: get my degree because I just I was lost, and
Speaker 1: I went because my mother said this is where I
Speaker 1: should go and this is what I should do. And
Speaker 1: so I just think that more time needs to be
Speaker 1: spent civil it with kids in school, mindfulness and just
Speaker 1: getting within themselves and figuring out who you are, because
Speaker 1: it took me years to figure I was a secretary
Speaker 1: for fifteen years just because I don't know. I know,
Speaker 1: And when I went to nursing school. I went to
Speaker 1: nursing school. Later I was the oldest one in my class.
Speaker 1: I think this is we could have a very different
Speaker 1: conversation about this that presents several challenges because I think
Speaker 1: the first thing is, like Karen said, children just going
Speaker 1: to school and and they're going through the much year
Speaker 1: you graduate from high school, you should quote unquote vote
Speaker 1: to college. And so we that kids at eighteen years
Speaker 1: old to know what they want their life work to be.
Speaker 1: And I think that's an unrealistic expectation. Some people know,
Speaker 1: like you said, Adrian, if you're sitting at the feat
Speaker 1: of a physician or something like that, some people really
Speaker 1: know what they want to do. But I think even
Speaker 1: if and say you go straight through medical school or
Speaker 1: whatever it is, whatever you decide you want to do,
Speaker 1: this thing about a job versus a career, it depends
Speaker 1: on what's available. Okay, some kids are doing what they
Speaker 1: think they want to do, but then they get out
Speaker 1: here and they can't find a job. So that's why
Speaker 1: they're taking these other jobs. The salaries suck. There's so
Speaker 1: many other factors that go along with this. Now gap
Speaker 1: years are becoming popular after high school, getting some work
Speaker 1: experience and just really trying to figure it out. But see,
Speaker 1: the parents have to buy into that. It just really
Speaker 1: depends on what your background is. You were just talking
Speaker 1: about your mom and you having to be productive all
Speaker 1: the time. You can't just sit around. Get up, let's
Speaker 1: get the day started. Let's get it going. And I
Speaker 1: came from that kind of environment. Also, we're not going
Speaker 1: to waste the day. So there are all of these
Speaker 1: factors that come into play. So in terms of advice,
Speaker 1: I think it would have to start in on the
Speaker 1: high school level, as people are beginning to think for
Speaker 1: themselves and really being able to make decisions for themselves
Speaker 1: and understanding what the benefits and the consequences are to
Speaker 1: whatever it is the environment had for them. If you
Speaker 1: have to get out there and work, some people can't
Speaker 1: go to college. They have to just work and they
Speaker 1: work their way up. So I think there are a
Speaker 1: lot of factors which makes it difficult to give hard
Speaker 1: concrete advice on what to do. But I do think
Speaker 1: that they can explore, but that would have to start
Speaker 1: earlier in life because usually they're not exploring until they
Speaker 1: get to college, or they're getting out there and they're
Speaker 1: working a job job, and they're miserable because they're not
Speaker 1: making the kount of money they want to make, and
Speaker 1: there might be financial hardships that they have to be
Speaker 1: able to do something else. So I think it's a
Speaker 1: different kind of conversation. That's just my personal opinion. And
Speaker 1: I feel bad that they've taken um away all the
Speaker 1: vocation on tech schools too, because I think that they
Speaker 1: were very important because everybody is not college material, and
Speaker 1: you certainly can be successful without going to college, So
Speaker 1: absolutely you can. But I think they're finding out now.
Speaker 1: They're finding out as they go into these jobs, if
Speaker 1: you will, and they've gotten if they're gone to school
Speaker 1: or whatever. But I think this generation now, they're just
Speaker 1: not having it. They're not listening to all this stuff
Speaker 1: that people are telling them. They're figuring it out for themselves.
Speaker 1: They really are, and if they don't like what they're doing,
Speaker 1: then they're pursuing other things. And they have ambition and
Speaker 1: they're grinding. They're grinding to do things that they are
Speaker 1: passionate about. Yeah. Yeah, but you also, Windy made a
Speaker 1: good point about young people graduating from college with a
Speaker 1: degree and just needing employment because they're ready to move on.
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I would do, because
Speaker 1: in my team management team before I left the federal government,
Speaker 1: I had mostly people under thirty with bachelor's degrees, and
Speaker 1: in mentoring them, one of the things that I would
Speaker 1: ask them was what they went to school for and
Speaker 1: then whatever that is, find it in this job. Find
Speaker 1: it in this job. Because to me, I started the
Speaker 1: federal government with a job I ended with a career,
Speaker 1: and so a career is built on experiences unless you
Speaker 1: have something specific like a doctor or a lore year
Speaker 1: and one of the and I have one child that
Speaker 1: is very successful and never went to college. She went
Speaker 1: through a vocational route and it has fared very well
Speaker 1: for her. And then I have another one that did
Speaker 1: go to college undergrad graduate and because of that money,
Speaker 1: you better find yourself in it, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: funding yourself in it. And you can do that even
Speaker 1: if you have to go to a technical job with
Speaker 1: an organization, uh, federal agency or whatever. There are opportunities
Speaker 1: to find yourself in it. And I think one of
Speaker 1: the things that maybe some of our young people don't
Speaker 1: understand is that experience is what makes the career so
Speaker 1: built on what you've already done, because you don't know
Speaker 1: what you want to do until you get there and
Speaker 1: you find it. But on the way, keep building on
Speaker 1: what you're already learning. Right, agreed, Any final thoughts for
Speaker 1: those listeners out there that may be considering another career
Speaker 1: after retirement, go for it. Go for it. Definitely. Definitely.
Speaker 1: We were only on this earth for a short time.
Speaker 1: Do what you love. If you can't do what you love,
Speaker 1: there you go. All right, So we're gonna wind it
Speaker 1: down and roll on out of here with our wouldn't
Speaker 1: you like to know? Segment where you answer three rapid
Speaker 1: fire questions with the first phrase that comes to your mind.
Speaker 1: What books are you current really reading? What book or books?
Speaker 1: And Karen, I'll start with you. I'm reading John Meacham's
Speaker 1: His Truth is Marching On about John Lewis. I'm usually
Speaker 1: a novel reader, but through this yourid of what we're
Speaker 1: going through, I've really had to step up my nonfiction. Yeah. Now,
Speaker 1: let me ask you this because I know you and
Speaker 1: I both are big on audio books. I listened to
Speaker 1: audio books when I'm listening to fiction, but when I'm
Speaker 1: doing nonfiction, I tend to have to read it so
Speaker 1: that I can really absorb what's going on. Are you
Speaker 1: like that too, Absolutely? Yeah. I gotta. I gotta be
Speaker 1: able to write in the margin, yeah, yeah, yeah, highlight
Speaker 1: look up words, yes, look upwards? Yeah. Absolutely? What about you, Simbil,
Speaker 1: what are you reading? I started reading The Code of
Speaker 1: Black Law, but it was a little bit too heavy.
Speaker 1: I had to put it down because it was too real.
Speaker 1: So now I am embarking on uncomfortable conversations with the
Speaker 1: black Man. Got it? Got it? Yeah? And you, Wendy,
Speaker 1: It's difficult for me to find time for pleasurable reading.
Speaker 1: So right now um reading thriving as an impact three
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five days of self care for sensitive People.
Speaker 1: So I read a lot of books that give me
Speaker 1: information that helped me in my work. So have you
Speaker 1: tried audio books? Absolutely? I have, and I guess. I
Speaker 1: just ordered Barack Obama's new book. And when I got
Speaker 1: it in the mail and saw that it was seven
Speaker 1: hundred and some of my pages, I said, oh no,
Speaker 1: I will be getting the audio version of that seven
Speaker 1: hundred pages. It is. Let me tell you it's seven
Speaker 1: hundred pages. And I said that's the first volume. Oh
Speaker 1: my goodness. So I said, I'm gonna have to order
Speaker 1: it as an audio book. And the last audio book
Speaker 1: that I listened to I listened to Michelle's on audio. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got it, got it, Okay, Karen, one thing you
Speaker 1: want to get off your chest. I will be glad
Speaker 1: when January twenty of come. I don't need we don't
Speaker 1: need to ask, why, Wendy. I think respecting people's boundaries,
Speaker 1: especially in this pandemic, I think that people have what
Speaker 1: I call pandemic boundaries, and I think people should respect
Speaker 1: them because they're different for each individual. That's a good one.
Speaker 1: That's a good one, Sybil. I'll be glad when COVID
Speaker 1: is lifted and I can travel safely, me and you both. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, Sybil, what's a model you live by? Don't
Speaker 1: negotiate against yourself. That's my mantra. Don't negotiate against yourself.
Speaker 1: Don't tell yourself no, let someone else tell you, know, Wendy,
Speaker 1: the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. Facts, Karen, you,
Speaker 1: I just always remember my mother saying you are your
Speaker 1: brother's keeper. Yeah. That's a good one. That's yeah one.
Speaker 1: Thank you, ladies. This was quite an enjoyable conversation and
Speaker 1: it was good to see I can I say that
Speaker 1: it was good to see everybody because even though the
Speaker 1: listeners can see, we can see each other. All right, guys,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. So these are my takeaways with
Speaker 1: my conversation on retirement. Number one, take time to figure
Speaker 1: out what you really want to do. Number two, Purpose
Speaker 1: and meaning can be the catalyst to starting a new,
Speaker 1: more meaningful career. And number three don't let age hinder
Speaker 1: any post retirement aspirations you may have. Thank you to
Speaker 1: my guests Wendy, Sybil and Karen for sharing your retirement
Speaker 1: stories with us. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, be
Speaker 1: sure to rate and review the episode. Follow me on
Speaker 1: my Instagram at gammy nars to share with me your
Speaker 1: thoughts on the episode. I'm here, I'm talking, and I'm
Speaker 1: listening and as always, folks, stay grateful. Positively gam is
Speaker 1: produced by Westbrook Audio. Executive producers Adrian Vanfield Narris, Jada
Speaker 1: Pinkett Smith, Amanda Brown, and Fallon jethro Co. Executive producer
Speaker 1: sim Hoti, Segment producer Ash Francis, Associate producer Erica Ron,
Speaker 1: editor and mixer Calvin Baylis. Positively GAM is in partnership
Speaker 1: with Art nineteen