WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 184 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:03.160 Call Zone Media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.760 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.480 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.719 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.240 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.520 Hey, this is me the future. This is recorded in 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:35.320 the now Haalcion days of January twenty twenty five. Lots 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:38.320 of things have changed. Basically everything everywhere has gotten worse. 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:42.280 This is the story about the oppression of trends people 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.040 in the United Kingdom that is very bleak. In many ways, 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:50.080 United Kingdom has gotten worse since then. The UK Supreme 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:52.640 Court has ruled that the definition of sex and the 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:56.520 Equality Act of twenty ten is quote binary and is 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.520 decided by quote biological sex. So whatever the sex that 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.000 some fucking doctor assigns you at birth is your sex 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.480 specifically under the Equalities Act. A bunch of people in 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:09.600 the UK have decided that this means that like the 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.959 courts have ruled that like sex in general means quote 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.920 unquote biological sex. That's actually not what they ruled, but 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:18.760 they're doing anyways. So there's been a whole bunch of 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.360 things where, for example, the Labor Party has started purging 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.920 trans women from any like one of their bodies that's 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:28.360 supposed to be a woman's body. So through the oppression 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:33.319 of trans people continues to escalate. Yeah, our only path 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.920 out is just open and active resistance against them. In 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.080 a more positive note, Mira, our guest for this episode, 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.840 has since since this episode, has struck out on her 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:47.080 own and is now the mind and genius behind the 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:49.440 outlet Free Radical. She will link to here and you 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.080 should go support her work because it's great. Now to 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:57.240 our episode, it's it could happen here a podcast that 0:01:57.440 --> 0:01:59.760 is largely about the US. 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:00.480 That my that might. 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.080 Exaggerate the e sat to which is about the US, 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.680 but it is most episodes are about the US, but 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.440 sometimes it's about other places. And one of the frequent 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.200 places that it's about is the United Kingdom. And specifically 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.880 we're here to talk about the United Kingdom because the 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.800 UK is both an image of the presence and the 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.640 future of the oppression of trans people and there have 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.839 been a bunch of just absolutely horrible things happening there 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.480 that have gotten very little press attention. And one of 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.359 one of those things is what appears to be a 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.960 like I guess I would call it like a two 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.680 stage cover up of a bunch of suicides of trans 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.880 kids on waiting lists for healthcare. And with me to 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:45.480 talk about this fucking terrible shit is Mira Lazine, who's 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:47.840 a freelance trans journalist. Miro, Welcome to the show. 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.000 Great to be here, Thank you for having me. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.440 Yeah. So, I mean, God, this is one of those 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.040 I always am excited to talk to people, but I 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.120 swear to God, like one out of every four times 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.200 this happens, it's like a I have to pull do 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.200 I want to say, I'm excited to talk to you 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.880 about this because, like Jesus christis is the most depressing 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:06.120 shit I've seen in ages. 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.560 Yeah, it's not a fun story. It's an important one, 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.480 probably one of the most important I've ever boarded on, 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:16.720 but not remotely fun. 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:18.160 Yeah. 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:24.080 So let's go back to the Halcyon days of mid 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.520 twenty twenty four. I don't know, thanks for she really 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.640 bad then too, but they're worse now. But they were 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.560 also bad then, yeah, So can you talk a bit 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:35.840 about how this story started and about what was going 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.720 on with the National Health Service, the NHS, which is 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.680 the British basically the British healthcare system is run out 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.800 of National Health Service. Can you talk about the whistleblowers 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:46.760 there and what was going on with them? 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:52.960 So, yeah, I first became aware of whats going on independently. 0:03:53.600 --> 0:04:00.000 I was working with Alejandra care Bio the Clinical Instruction 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:04.200 of cyber Law plant at Harvard sheets a friend of mine, 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:08.640 and we work together on subjects. She and Ira and 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:14.320 Almos some other people were talking about the horrific waitlists 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:19.920 going on with the NHS. It's terrible there. I mean 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.120 not even just for trance stuff. There's only millions of 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:27.159 reports of people having to wait months to get essential healthcare. 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.279 Some people have died just from like their conditions being 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:35.200 on the wait list. We had both stumbled upon some 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.479 old news reports from like years prior, about trans kids 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:44.560 who had unfortunately committed suicide as a result of not 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:47.320 getting the essential health CUY getting need on the wait list. 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:52.280 These stories are not talked about their media at all. 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.680 They got like one art mentioned naing what happened to them, 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.960 and then that was it. So we started to invest 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.560 gate it. She was compiling a spreadsheet of everything she 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.919 could find, every news report of kids who experienced this. 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.960 I was pitching helped and contribute to that spreadsheets. And 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:16.279 then right around the same time, the director then of 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:21.159 the Good Law Project, a civil rights organization that does 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.560 a lot of legal stuff in the United Kingdom. His 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:27.239 name is Jolyn Mogam apologized if I mispronounced that. He 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:32.800 came out with a Twitter thread revealing and this was 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.840 very suddenly. He hadn't contacted anyone about this. He just 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.720 kind of posted it right when he got enough of 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.320 a story and everything. He revealed that he was talking 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.919 to a couple of whistleblowers within the NHS about what 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:50.960 was going down. And not only did he talk to 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:56.080 some whistleblowers, but he also gained some independent evidence from himself, 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:03.480 his own investigation, from meeting it's from officials in the NHS, 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.800 and so what he found kind of again at the 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:12.840 first was still beliller. This one was someone who did 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.839 not reveal much about who they were publicly and presumably 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.120 to protect their job. But Logan said that with his 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.520 whistleblowers he independently confirmed that they did work for the NHS. 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.599 He saw their ideas. Mangham's that typic guy to lie. 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:30.440 He's a trusted figure in the UK political scene. First 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:35.960 one said that there was only one reported suicide prior 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:41.919 to twenty twenty. Significance of twenty twenty in relation to 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:48.320 trantelthcare at United Kingdom was that the infamous Caspell versus Tatstock. 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.480 Not going to go into detail of this case because 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:54.560 it condoluded messy and hellish, but the gist of it 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:58.760 is that it led to tightened restrictions on gender priman 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:03.120 care for minors, particularly in the new realm of puberty blockers. 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.240 This ruling ended up kind of restricting how might act 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.760 as puberty blockers. Some it was the leader overturned, but 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.960 it already led to lasting damage. Even after it was overturned, 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.360 a lot of doctors for even prescribe puberty blockers because 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.560 they were worried about political consequences. So a lot of 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.920 miners weren't getting the care they need. 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.360 Yeah, and we should also mention here too because I 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:27.720 think this has been lost in a lot of the 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.280 reporting on this, because like I mean, I guess this 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:31.600 is the story where a lot of the reporting was 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:33.800 done by trans people just because like nobody gives a shit. 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.320 But like, the thing about puberty blockers is that puberty 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.040 blockers with the healthcare of trans youth were always a 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.360 sort of compromise measure that was, you know, sort of 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.040 put in place as a compromise of like instead of 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.960 letting kids actually transition and like, you know, go on hormones, 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.600 which is, you know, the thing that kids need, right 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.800 if your goal is to like improve the health outcomes 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.240 of trans kids, like the thing you actually want for them, 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.400 like maximally is for them to have the ability to 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:04.440 get gender affirming hormones. But you know, the sort of 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.000 the sort of compromise thing that was happenings like, well, 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.240 you could have puberty blockers, but you know, you start 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.880 horbuns later, and that is not a good compromise to 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:15.400 begin with, but losing it is even worse because the 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.960 alternative to that is like you are now spending even 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:21.000 more time with a bunch of fucking hormones in your 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.360 system that you don't want. Thats more of more of 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.360 the hormones that you fucking want, and you know you're 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:30.040 getting you're being forced to go through puberty, which fucking sucks. 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.240 Shit if you're going through I don't know. I don't 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.640 know if the wrong puberty is like the correct language 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:40.240 or whatever, but like it fucking sucks. It's awful. But 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.079 now you know. And this is just something that's happening 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:43.840 in the US too. It's also happening in the UK, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.320 is that the compromise solutions are being knocked out and 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:49.520 we're seeing the sort of knock on effects of these 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:52.440 kids losing even the sort of compromise stuff they were 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:53.200 supposed to be getting. 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.679 Yeah, and they used come deep bogus justifications for this 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.320 or like we don't see any benefits of pu people loockers, 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.120 And it's like, the point is not that they are 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.800 benefiting these kids directly. No kid is like, oh boy, 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:10.480 I get to be five years behind on puberty from 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:12.679 my peers, I get to look like a ten year old, 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.439 but all my peers have bull one beam everything. Oh boy. 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:20.120 Like no, but the point is that these kids are 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.320 being deprived of the care they absolutely need to stay itlive, 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.560 and it's being targeted just for the sole purpose of 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:33.079 getting cheap political pals from what are the hell's in office. Yeah, 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.839 but more back to the whistleblowers. So prior to twenty twenty, 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:42.160 when the Belvy Tavistock ruling came into effect, only one 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:47.480 transmitter died from suicide. I don't quite remember how I'm 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.520 being the used estimated, but it was broader than the 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.720 one they used after. I believe it was like seven years, 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.280 I think, and the years after which was measured up 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.400 to like the very beginning of twenty twenty four. Chane, 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.680 you at twenty twenty four, so not even four years, 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:09.720 more like three years. In June months they recorded sixteen debts. Yeah, 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:17.040 sixteen transgender minors committed to suicide, and they were all 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:22.520 able to be linked to restrictions on compreticaters and NHS 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:27.320 wait lists. This was the blower says on This data 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:32.199 came directly from a doctor who analyzes this stuff professionally, 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.720 is like part of his job in the NHS. The 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.080 doctor also wanted to be anonymous. Understandably, he named himself 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.640 the quote named doctor for Safeguarding child. He tried to 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.440 warn people in the NHS about this. He was like, hey, 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:49.520 there's something wrong. This isn't right. We are fucking up. 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.360 Yeah, And he. 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:56.400 Talked to so many different people, including doctor Hilary Cass, 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:57.840 who I'll talk of it about later. 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:05.120 This is a literary device called foreshadowy ETCA giant clip 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:11.120 flashing big here, giant ominous music surrounding her remain that 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.280 does he just warned. 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:19.000 Of people basically, and they all ignored him. They all 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.320 just according to him. And this is all alleged. I 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.600 have to say, you know, this has not been verified 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:27.600 in the court of flaw or anything. This is according 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.200 to the whistleblowers and mongam, but we have no reason 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.600 to believe they lied or fabricated this information about this 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.000 was not even revealed publicly. There is no public outcry. 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.760 There was no action taken by the NHS or any 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.120 of the clinics. So that is the first whistleblower and 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.040 the whistleblower's connection to that doctor. The second one basically 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:54.240 can and gave independent verification of this. They were like, yeah, 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.360 I've seen the data for myself too, I can confirm 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.559 this is legitimate. Now it wasn't just these sory staff 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.840 members who were trying to raise a larm bells. According 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.400 to the second whistle blower, staff and the NHS were like, hey, 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.040 well this is not cool, we need to do something 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.240 until they got an open letter, sent it to their 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:17.880 higher ups and reportedly the director of the Tavistock Clinic, 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.560 which was at the time the only gender affirming air 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.720 clinic for minors in the entire United Kingdom. Since that's 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.760 more opened up. But it's a really complicated thing. That's 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:34.559 a headache to deal with. But head honchos at Tavistock 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:39.920 completely retabiated. They threatened them a disciplined interaction. They suppressed material. 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.400 They're basically were like, you go public about this, if 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.160 you continue talking about this, you're going to face consequences. 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:48.800 The thing the thing that instantly came to mind here, 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.040 and I think it's just specifically because of number sixteen, 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.520 but like the first time I read this, the first 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.040 thing that came to my mind was there, you know, 0:12:55.280 --> 0:13:00.000 there's the sort of famous Chicago story of the police 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.360 killing of the Clint McDonald where the slogan afterwards was 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.400 sixteen shots and a cover up. And this is fucking 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.800 sixteen dead at a cover up, And the about a 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:13.040 fucking rage that I have for all for this, all 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:14.960 of this fucking shit that these people covered this up, 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:18.360 that they knew this was happening and were just and 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.560 not only knew this was happening, and not only didn't 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.560 do anything about it, but like actively you contributed to 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.760 fucking making it worse by threatening anyone to try to 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.960 talk about it. Is just so unbelievably disgusting. 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:30.200 Yeah. 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:32.720 I was the first one who broke the story. I 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.160 basically recorded on it, like almost immediately after Moldern Republic 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:40.040 about this, because I knew not many people were going 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.280 to report on this right away and it was going 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:43.720 to kind of be a headache. I didn't know how 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.880 he would, but I was the first one to report 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.440 on it. I did it for cheerlest Aaron read subsec 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.560 Aaron in the Morning back in June of last year, 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.440 and I had to stop writing it multiple times, like 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.640 I spent the entire day getting on it because it 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:05.520 was stomach wrenching reading some of these stories and doing everything. 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.480 The only reason I even got through it was because 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.439 I dissociated the entire time and just kind of impartmentalized 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.160 the anger of a bunch Beretta. It's like Jesus Christ, this 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.680 is horrifying. But Malcolm was not talking out of his 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:21.520 aspetus too. He brought receipts right in the initial thread 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:26.040 he showed leaked to meeting minutes and like you can 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.440 see water marks from the NHS on these meeting minutes. 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.440 Like it is unless someone wants to suggest that he 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.960 did a giant conspiracy and fabricated a bunch of very 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:41.440 accurate meeting minutes that reflect publicly available meeting minutes elsewhere, 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.880 it it's pretty reputable. Yeah, these minutes show that any 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:50.360 test officials were aware of every single one of these debts, 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.600 every single one of them. People were in these meetings 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.480 calling for an independent investigation into each of these debts, 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.600 into gender firming care for miners, into restrictions. They wanted 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:07.720 to investigate everything and had detailed data. They had information 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:13.280 on the type of care they received, which was basically negligence, 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:18.480 and instead of reporting on this publicly, instead of doing 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.520 an investigation, they covered this up. They didn't do anything, 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:27.040 and they just pretended like everything was fine, like there 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.960 was no debts as a result of this. They were 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:34.520 acted nothing wrong was going on, and these meeting minutes 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.360 are still public too. Mangan is not believed in that 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.520 it's still on his Twitter account. Good Law Project is 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.520 not fully a thing any more of the kind of 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.040 dissolving their stuff right now, but Magan is still keeping 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.760 all information up. It's all detailed, it's publicly there. People 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:55.600 can see for themselves these minutes and it's horrifying seeing 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.040 the physical proof. It's yeah, it's horrifying. 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:02.680 Yeah, and we need to go to ads and when 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.680 we come back, we'll get to the second fucking cover 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:07.440 up because there was a second one. Did it again 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.520 this time with the British broadcasting What the fuck does 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:12.960 the C stand for corporation? 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:36.760 That one British broadcast in corporation leading the charge. 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.040 And we are back. So let's talk about the fucking 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.920 second cover up because normally, normally you only get one 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.600 cover up when your fucking healthcare policies kill a bunch 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.880 of people, but no, two, they got multiple cover ups. 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:42.440 Before we get to the second cover up, we need 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.920 to talk about what the cash report is because that's 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.400 also part of this. And we kind of bounced around 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:49.760 a little bit but then didn't. Yeah. 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:55.640 Well, yeah, so the cast report is probably one of 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:57.520 the worst things to come out at the anti trans 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.720 crowd in the past decade. 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:00.800 Yeah. 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.800 The gist of it is, it's essentially a supposedly independent 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:09.760 report commissioned by the Knighting government to investigate the efficacy 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.680 of huberty blockers and gender of herman care from liners 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:18.120 authored by doctor Hillard Cass, who they claimed is an 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:21.439 expert in the subject. I'll get to that in a second. 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.760 The gist of what it was claiming is that no 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.040 puberty blockers do anything. They actually hurt the kids. They 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.280 don't improve mental health, they don't protect anything, suicide to 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.000 stay the same, it's all bad. Get rid of them 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:39.800 and actually restrict gender perman care two and also maybe 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.360 we should de transition these kids too. It's a very 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:47.520 long documents, actually a set of documents, but the primary 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:52.760 one isn't incredibly long. I remember when it first it 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:56.919 came out last year. It's been in the works for 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.040 the better part of the last decade. Still get twenty tens. 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:02.760 It's been in the works. I don't remember the exactly 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.440 gear that it was initially commissioned, but it's been something 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.199 the United Kingdom government has been waiting on for a 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:13.439 while to take action for gender reforming care. Now to 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.359 understand the CAST report, you gotta understand a little bit 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.960 about Hillary Cass. Hillary Cass is not an expert in 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.400 gender firming care seeing up for minors. She has never 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.000 treated a transgender patient aimed her professional practice. 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:32.080 Whatsoever, which, thank god yes, because holy shit, oh she 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.720 is such a transphob Oh my god, yes, but yeah, 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:36.920 also utterly unqualified. 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:42.600 Completely unqualified while she was writing it instead of talking 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.840 with single trans person as like part of the consulting 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:47.840 because she didn't do it by herself. It's wait too 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.600 long for anyone to do buyers by themselves. She got 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.640 a bunch of unknown advisors to help her with this, 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.520 one of which is a Finnish psychiatrist who has been 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.760 campaigned against transgender rights for the past twenty years. But 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.560 she did not have any trans people on the consulting board, 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:09.359 not a single one. Well, of course, why would you 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.359 talk to a transperson about trans healthcare? Like that's why 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.879 would you. Trans people don't know anything. They need to 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.160 be regulated and told exactly what's best for them by 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:22.040 people who have never even talked to them before. She actually, 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:27.560 while she was writing it, she talked to Florida Healthcare 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:34.960 officials during the Ron DeSantis fstration for information YEP on 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.120 what to do like and these officials, by the way, 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.480 they weren't just like leftovers from the prior governor. They 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.720 were appointed by Ron de Santis and have literally been 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.800 Jews bidding and restricting healthcare. 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.439 Yeah, appointed by the guy who in the last campaign 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:54.520 cycle had to fucking add with a son and rat 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:58.000 in it. So like, you know the level of Nazi 0:19:58.000 --> 0:19:59.000 we're dealing with here. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.960 Uh. And not only did she work with them, but 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:10.080 there's even more. She worked with numerous people who were 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.639 tied to anti transit groups, most notable of which is 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.240 the quote Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine. 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:18.800 God. 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:24.120 They are probably one of the leading anti transgroups right now. 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.760 They are southern poverty, low centered, desic hate group. They're 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.679 not very fun people. They all have a financial interest 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.640 in opposing transgender rights. Many of the people with them 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:38.399 have been quite orderly paid to oppose transjunder rights in court. 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:41.399 There's a whole rabbit hole to get into there. The 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:43.919 point being she's worked with hate groups, She's worked with 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:48.240 the Santa's appointees, She talked to no trans people, and 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:53.679 she lied a lot. When the cast for Brew first 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.359 came out, I was one of the people who was 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:58.880 working around the clock to try to be like, hey, 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.760 let's not just assume that this is immediately accurate, because 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:06.000 we should wait for independent scholars to evaluate this. There's 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.959 a lot of shady stuff going on here, and why 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:11.240 didn't you know it? A lot of things were wrong 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.760 for starters. Ass misrepresented a lot of what she did 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.359 for the review. It was supposed to be a systematic 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:22.080 review into all the literature and pubi blockers. The problem 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.560 is she left out a bunch of studies, especially more 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:29.040 recent ones with better elogies. She and her method degrade them, 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.040 basically changed it up last minute and didn't seek peer 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:37.120 review for it from her institution's review the board, which 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.520 she didn't speak any ethical verification on anything. 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.159 Yeah, which, which is which is amazing. It's like, do 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.600 you know how fucked your report has to beat and 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.040 like your anti transferport has to be and not be 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:53.000 able to survive a British peer review board like Jesus Christ. 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:59.040 It's like yeah, like it's it gets even worse because 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.560 as time went on, a lot of journalists, myself included, 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:04.920 found a bunch of little pact role in art seat there. 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:08.720 She was misrepresenting this study. She was misterpreting that study. 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.919 Lots of little information it was she at one point 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:17.680 fighted a YouTube channel that is dedicated to opposing trans rate. 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:22.800 That be the YouTube channel in your fucking secitations. It 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.160 was a tangential citation, but the point being the fact 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:29.520 that she even discovered that shows her allegiances. She was 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.680 in the CAST Review. She was trying to cast doubt 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.479 on the leading medical association for trans people, the war 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:40.600 Professional Association for Transgender Health. She was like, Oh, no, 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.600 you're actually not good. They're politically biased. I'm not though, 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:46.520 don't more eyes, don't investigate me. 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:48.240 Yeah. 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.280 And in the time since, there's been a shit ton 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:55.760 of medical experts coming forward opposing the CAST Review, being like, no, 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:59.720 the methodology is garbage. Not just journalists saying it. There 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.120 are quite littly been hundreds of metabirds who have come 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:06.000 forward to publicly imposed the CAST Review. These are people 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:12.720 across a variety of fields, psychiatrists, pediatrician and anechronologists, basically 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:16.199 everyone you could imagine who would be relevant to the 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.600 study of transunder health and minors. They have come forward 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:23.520 against it, including most of the leading researchers in the field, 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:28.159 including people who have actually important with trans people in 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:29.280 a professional capacity. 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:33.440 Yeah wow, And this review. 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:37.520 It's the reason the United Kingdom went on last year 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:42.480 to ban puberty blockers in all four countries within it. 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.840 They started in England, then they spread it out to Scotland, 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.920 Wales with their beauty blocker ban, and was recently right 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:55.520 before New Year's they banned it in Northern Ireland. And 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.080 because of this, so many clinics are now just not 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:03.800 treating transple including transgender adults. They are out transgender adults 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:07.040 not getting the care they need. Yeah, because of something 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:10.800 ton't even discuss trans adults in a meaningful capacity. 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:11.360 Yeah. 0:24:11.400 --> 0:24:13.000 And that's and that's part of the thing with the 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:15.440 Cast Review, right, is that, like, you know, it literally 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:18.919 like it could have just been like seven hundred pages 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:20.760 of fuck you over and over again and it would 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:22.439 have had the same effects, because the point of the 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:26.000 Cast Review wasn't actually to like establish anything medically. It 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:27.760 was to just have a document that you could point 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:31.520 at and then justify any policy whatsoever. Like it's it's 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:33.080 kind of like it's kind of like the way the 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:36.199 Gambits and the Bell Curve works were, like none of 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:39.840 the actual policy recommendations follow from any of the arguments 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:43.080 that they're making. But it exists so that you can 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:45.480 make those policy arguments and then point to like, oh 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:47.399 it's because of IQ and this is this is the 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:50.560 same like bullshit IQ, like fake IQ science, right, Like. 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:54.680 There's literally IQ science used to justify the puberty blocker band. 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:57.680 Of course there is why they are claiming that puberty 0:24:57.680 --> 0:25:01.879 blockers reduce IQ using a STO from like two thousand 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:04.879 and one on one of the and a separate study 0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:07.800 on show god, a separate study on fucking sheep. 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.159 How are you measuring the IQ of sheep? 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:13.879 Like yeah, okay, yeah, we wheeled in the sheep to 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:17.280 do the fucking Army standard amplitude test. Like ah, it' 0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:20.639 scored real bad. Give it puberty blockers and it scored 0:25:20.680 --> 0:25:21.200 even worse. 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:24.800 It gets garbage science. 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:27.560 Yeah, but one of the important things, like cocclusions here 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:28.720 is that, like so one of the one of the 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.439 sort of things that's happening now is that fucking feral 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:36.840 attack dog. I don't know fuckings sue me, you motherfucker. 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:40.040 We won the revolution. Each shit west Streeting who's now 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:44.440 running British Healthcare, issued a fucking thing to to ban 0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:48.359 puberty blockers for trans youth, you know, and he cites 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:49.840 the Cash Report. Do you know what's not in the 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:52.639 Cash Report? A recommendation to ban puberty blockers? Do you 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:54.800 know what these fucking he doing you anyways? Because that's 0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:57.919 the actual sort of purpose of the report is to 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:00.959 serve as sort of like just a kind of like 0:26:01.000 --> 0:26:03.199 talisman you can hold up and say, ha, see this 0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:06.879 is justified. Yeah, and can you talk about the whistleblowers 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:09.359 and the Cast report too, because this is the thing 0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:12.000 that I has seen very very little coverage that is 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:13.080 extremely important. 0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:13.880 Yeah. 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:19.720 So the whistleblowers, they literally reached out to the Cast 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:23.440 while she was writing the review. She had to be like, hey, 0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:26.480 restricting puberty blockers isn't good. And like you said, Pass 0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:28.679 did not recommend to ban puberty blockers. She called for 0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:32.280 more research into it and like some restriction, but not 0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:35.760 an outgrade band that was not anywhere within it. Even 0:26:35.800 --> 0:26:40.800 with her extremism, she's like, maybe we shouldn't restrict everything completely, 0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:43.000 you know, maybe we should just de transition some of 0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:46.120 the kids. But she did not advocate for a full 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:48.040 on ban, and she has even gone public into the 0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:51.879 media to clarify that she has does not believe in 0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:58.560 a hole on ban and yet she ignored the whistleblowers. 0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:01.520 She ignored them when they came to her being like, hey, 0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:06.399 there's evidence that restricting pubery blockers is haunting these depths 0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:09.960 record and she didn't do anything. We don't know the 0:27:10.000 --> 0:27:14.560 specifics of that conversation. That's not public information. But you 0:27:14.640 --> 0:27:18.160 read the cast review, you're not coming away with it thinking, 0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:24.119 oh boy, she's really concerned about kids who are killing themselves. Yeah, 0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:26.480 you're coming away with it thinking she doesn't believe a 0:27:26.520 --> 0:27:28.160 shit and she has her own agenda. 0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:31.359 Yeah, And so okay, we're going to take another ad break, 0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:33.480 and then we're going to get to the promise second 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:47.200 cover up, and we're back for cover up number two. 0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:52.600 So okay, we have now introduced briefly the fucking spawn 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:56.080 of Satan himself, West Reading. Can you talk a little 0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:58.639 bit more about him and the cover up that he 0:27:58.680 --> 0:27:59.720 commissioned of this? 0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:04.359 So yeah, when I broke this story, it was getting 0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:07.080 no coverage. No other news outlet wanted to touch it. 0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:10.520 There were actually some journalists I talked to I'm not 0:28:10.520 --> 0:28:13.000 going to name any names, but journalists I talked to 0:28:13.040 --> 0:28:15.480 you who are trying to get their editors to publish 0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:18.600 a story on these claims and they were like, m 0:28:19.240 --> 0:28:21.399 I don't think so. I think we're going to do that. 0:28:21.480 --> 0:28:25.680 It's too speculative and things like that. People were actively 0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:29.840 shutting it down, especially in the British media. Yeah, and 0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:33.080 for about a month the NHS was nordness and not 0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:36.840 getting public comment. Enter West streaming. You said, he is 0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:41.959 the head of British Healthcare officially, is like fucking the 0:28:42.000 --> 0:28:44.320 head of the Secretary of State for Help and Social 0:28:44.360 --> 0:28:48.240 Care some shit like that. But he's a sellout. He's 0:28:48.280 --> 0:28:50.640 a labor guy, you know, the party that's supposed to 0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:54.000 be at least kind of left wing and some and 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:57.560 he threw trans people under the bus the first chance 0:28:57.600 --> 0:29:00.000 he got, right after Turf started pressing him for it 0:29:01.000 --> 0:29:06.600 was streating in all his awful, awful glory, looked at 0:29:07.240 --> 0:29:12.600 Mullgan's thread and thought, what if I denied this? So 0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:18.160 he commissioned Professor Lewis Appleby or Appleby. He is a 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:22.720 leading suicide researcher he at the University of Manchester. Except 0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:25.840 even though he's been in the field of suicide research 0:29:25.920 --> 0:29:29.160 for decades, in the past year or so he's been 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:33.520 cozying up to a lot of antutrians people. Yeah, there's 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:37.280 shipped ton of tweets of him basically talking to turfs, 0:29:37.560 --> 0:29:41.040 repeating the oh you can't have men and women's sports nonsense, 0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:43.280 you can. What does him going down the pipeline? 0:29:43.440 --> 0:29:45.800 Yeah, he's just he's a he's a turf. Yeah, like 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:46.240 that's the. 0:29:46.440 --> 0:29:50.360 Yeah, he's a the turf. He's a turf. Who I 0:29:50.480 --> 0:29:56.120 do you does not professionally really work with Transius commits suicide. 0:29:56.280 --> 0:30:00.280 He does not discuss LGBTQ issues in his brieft arch 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:02.760 as his primary focus. He does it for the general population. 0:30:03.040 --> 0:30:03.680 Yeah. 0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:05.680 I haven't read every single study of his, so it's 0:30:05.680 --> 0:30:07.760 probably as like one or two that talk about LGBQ 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:11.600 suicide rates. But by no means is he like the 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:15.720 guy you go to to learn about why suicide attempts 0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.440 and suicide rates are a thing in the LGBTQ population. 0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:23.120 West Reading was like, Hey, Lewis, do you want to 0:30:23.320 --> 0:30:29.120 write a quote unquote debunking of Margam's dread. So enter 0:30:29.720 --> 0:30:33.320 the I have it up right now. They quote review 0:30:33.400 --> 0:30:36.520 of Suicide from Gender Dysphoria at the Tavistock and Portman 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:42.959 NHS Foundation Trust Independent Report. This guy, he basically claimed 0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:47.360 that Nope, there's no data for this. Actually Mogam's wrong 0:30:47.920 --> 0:30:51.440 is that data pans it out. The data doesn't lie. 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:53.800 It's also funny because his argument is that trans people 0:30:53.800 --> 0:30:57.440 were already killing themselves. Yeah, it was just like it 0:30:57.640 --> 0:31:04.720 was really fucking plaque you think about it. But now there's. 0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:06.480 Gripes a million breaths of people could have with this. 0:31:07.280 --> 0:31:09.920 For start, the data set is obviously too small to 0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:13.680 analyze fucking statistically. Makes no sense to try to do 0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:17.520 a fucking in death satistical analysis on what marg was 0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:20.320 claiming with sixteen kids. That's not but you're not going 0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:22.440 to get shit out of that. That's not really a 0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:26.640 big issue with it. The big issue that Mogum himself 0:31:27.200 --> 0:31:31.920 actually pointed out. In the same day that this came out, 0:31:32.960 --> 0:31:37.320 Logan pointed out that this analysis was just wrong from 0:31:37.360 --> 0:31:42.840 the start. For starters, this guy analyzed quote current and 0:31:43.120 --> 0:31:50.000 former patients of under Identity Service. Malcolm's claims weren't about that. 0:31:50.520 --> 0:31:53.960 Malcom's claims were about those who were on the waiting list. 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:57.800 Which is which which is just nuts. Like it is 0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:01.320 up here for a second, it's like the difference between 0:32:02.080 --> 0:32:07.880 again on the waiting list and have finished care, like, what, yeah, 0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:13.120 what are we doing here? Oh god, how did this 0:32:13.160 --> 0:32:15.360 get past any be the outlet? I mean tretsphobia? 0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:20.400 But like really yeah, now there's other problems with what 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:26.560 It's kind of suspicious. So applebye, Applebee. However he pronounce 0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:28.520 his last name, He's. 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:30.840 Gonna call him Applebee's because fuck him Applebee's. 0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:31.200 Fuck it. 0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:36.920 He used data directly provided by NHS inclin. Now student 0:32:37.000 --> 0:32:41.760 viewers will notice something. Magham never claimed to access data 0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:45.040 directly given to them from NHS Acland. He was given 0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:49.240 data from whistleblowers. Magham actually in this direct because he 0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:54.000 wrote a whole debunking this debunking, and Morgan was like, 0:32:54.640 --> 0:32:59.920 he revealed that he actually a month before this was published, 0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:01.880 he reached out to NHS angling to be like, hey, 0:33:02.000 --> 0:33:05.080 can I have your data on this subject. I've gotten 0:33:05.120 --> 0:33:07.520 a lot of information I want to try to corroborate it. 0:33:07.840 --> 0:33:11.080 They denied him the data. They just denied him it. 0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:13.040 Yeah, I remember incorrectly. Part of it was they claimed 0:33:13.080 --> 0:33:14.120 the data didn't exist. 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:17.000 Yeah, yeah, they claimed it didn't exist, that they just 0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:20.240 didn't have it at all, and something. They pulled that 0:33:20.280 --> 0:33:24.760 up in air for good old Applebee's well, there's some 0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:30.280 other insure inconsistencies. As we know, Mogham had receipts he 0:33:30.360 --> 0:33:37.920 provided information on minutes directly from NHS meetings discussing these suicides. 0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:41.400 The minutes don't match up to the data Applebee's has. 0:33:41.640 --> 0:33:48.040 Applebee's is underestimating everything. And yeah, very recently, this has 0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:50.800 not gotten any media coverage at all. Those who have 0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:55.160 been following UK politics for a while, especially trans politics, 0:33:55.720 --> 0:34:00.360 remember the unfortunate case of Alice Linn. Yeah, she was 0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:03.800 a young trientleman who committed suicide as advantage of this 0:34:03.800 --> 0:34:08.600 wait lists years ago. Her mother, Er Litman, has been 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:12.600 a staunch outline trans people since. She's been one of 0:34:12.640 --> 0:34:15.560 the excusest people in the UK to be like, hey, no, 0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:19.440 I'm I'm putting my all behind trans people. She's wonderful. 0:34:19.920 --> 0:34:24.480 She came out publicly revealing that Alice Litman was not 0:34:24.520 --> 0:34:28.480 included in Applebe's data set, even though she should have been. 0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:33.520 She was within Yeah the years. So what this says 0:34:34.120 --> 0:34:40.520 is that Applebee's had bad data that didn't include every kid. 0:34:40.719 --> 0:34:43.520 Yeah, well, here's the thing we don't know about that, right, 0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:46.640 It's possible he had bad data. It's possible he's also 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:49.880 just been falsifying his data because like again, he won't 0:34:49.880 --> 0:34:52.120 show it to us, so we have no fucking idea 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:55.520 what like what he was, what he was actually provided 0:34:55.560 --> 0:34:58.239 with and what he was like you know what, or 0:34:58.480 --> 0:35:00.640 what things he did to the It says that he 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:03.840 was given beforehand to produce what he's analyzing in his report. 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:07.840 True, and there was of course a bunch of smaller 0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:12.359 issues you could point out with Applebee's review, but the 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:15.640 crux of it, it's bogus data is a matchup. As 0:35:15.960 --> 0:35:18.040 you said, he could be falsifying it. He could have 0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:19.840 just been given bad data. We don't know. He's not 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:24.640 sharing anything. The NHS isn't sharing anything. Yeah, but all 0:35:24.640 --> 0:35:28.439 we know is that there's major inconsistencies and they they're 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:31.399 not doing shit with it. And this is where we 0:35:31.560 --> 0:35:38.439 enter everyone's favorite mainstream media, the lovely British media specifically 0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:43.040 outlooks like the BBC right literally within the first twenty 0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:46.719 four hours of this review coming out, they've applored it 0:35:46.760 --> 0:35:49.359 on it. At this point, my coverage has been there 0:35:49.400 --> 0:35:52.719 for a month. It loggam's claims have been out there 0:35:52.719 --> 0:35:55.640 for a month. They weren't touched them, and yet the 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:57.960 moment someone came out with the NHS trying to be like, 0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:01.280 actually it's false. They were rush to report on it 0:36:01.360 --> 0:36:06.759 something they claimed was not newsworthy Previously. Yeah, and mind you, 0:36:07.040 --> 0:36:11.479 Mougam's rebuttal to this review was posted publicly at this time, 0:36:11.640 --> 0:36:16.120 at the time that this media coverage was going up. 0:36:16.440 --> 0:36:20.800 At the BBC article breaking the story up, the only 0:36:21.200 --> 0:36:28.120 discussion they give to basically any issues with this is 0:36:28.200 --> 0:36:32.000 just a couple of brief sentences talking about Mogam's issues 0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:34.680 with him. At the beginning, they just claimed that Morgan 0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:38.000 had profound difficulties and at the very end of the article, 0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:41.960 buried at the bottom, they gave Mogam like three sentences, 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:47.080 and they left out a lot of information, like the 0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:50.560 minutes Muggham showed that he got from whistleblowers, the exact 0:36:50.560 --> 0:36:54.960 claims he got from whistle blowers. They just didn't report 0:36:55.000 --> 0:37:01.200 on it. They they gave such intense coverage to alt 0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:04.560 these Applebee's claims in the review, and then they just 0:37:04.760 --> 0:37:07.400 plot o ignored everything Magham was singing, everything everyone else 0:37:07.520 --> 0:37:10.600 was doing. Now again I add, sure we don't know 0:37:10.800 --> 0:37:15.400 for sure whether who's telling the truth, but the NHS 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:18.719 has an incentive to lie here, Magham doesn't. Magham is 0:37:18.760 --> 0:37:23.040 getting his career torch basically because they go going forward 0:37:23.040 --> 0:37:23.800 about all this. 0:37:24.360 --> 0:37:27.319 And you can tell which side the BBC is on. 0:37:27.360 --> 0:37:28.640 You know, they give the game away at the end 0:37:28.680 --> 0:37:31.759 where they give the last word of this article to 0:37:31.920 --> 0:37:35.120 Ken Barker, who is the chief executive the LGB Alliance, 0:37:35.120 --> 0:37:37.840 which is an anti transait group, and you know, and 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:41.080 they give her the last sentence saying that trans people 0:37:41.080 --> 0:37:44.520 are spreading misinformation to serve a dangerous and homophobic ideology. 0:37:44.560 --> 0:37:49.480 And I like, quite specifically, like Kate Barker, if you 0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:52.400 ever fucking listen to this, fuck you eat shit, Like 0:37:52.400 --> 0:37:55.080 this is direct evidence that of the BBC's fucking political 0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:57.799 line here, because again they're giving the closing statement to 0:37:57.840 --> 0:38:01.000 a group that is literally just an anti transacor because 0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:04.479 the BBC is the institutional is to institutional fucking media 0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:06.480 arm of the British government, and the British government is 0:38:06.480 --> 0:38:07.640 institutionally transphobic. 0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:12.000 Yeah, and I'm not gonna say that what the information 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:14.560 right now, we have a definite news that's not the problem. 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:18.200 The problem is this have been being investigated any non 0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:23.640 biased fucking NHS, any non biased British, Yeah, would look 0:38:23.640 --> 0:38:26.040 at Moggan's claims and think, oh wow, we should look 0:38:26.080 --> 0:38:30.319 into this, we should independently verify. Yeah, we should try 0:38:30.320 --> 0:38:33.400 to cor operate everything saying, or at least see if 0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:35.520 he's accurate, which which again, and I want to put 0:38:35.560 --> 0:38:37.759 this out this is the job of a journalist. The 0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:40.440 job of a journalist is not to fucking literally reprint 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:43.680 a press report from fucking like commissioned by the fucking government. 0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:46.200 Your job is to go find the fucking whistleblowers and 0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:48.280 talk to people. Did the British Did the fucking BBC 0:38:48.360 --> 0:38:50.000 do this? No, of course they didn't, because they're fucking 0:38:50.040 --> 0:38:54.680 PR hacks. Yep, they're PR hacks for a transgendocide. And 0:38:54.760 --> 0:38:56.920 like quite frankly, and I will say this on the 0:38:56.920 --> 0:38:59.120 fucking record, because I'm not a journalist, fuck these people, 0:38:59.200 --> 0:39:01.680 like this is this is what the BBC wants, Like 0:39:02.280 --> 0:39:04.399 fucking dead trans kids and a cover up is what 0:39:04.440 --> 0:39:08.239 they institutionally what this fucking organization wants because they fucking 0:39:08.280 --> 0:39:11.120 hate trans people and they are completely okay with all 0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:13.279 of this shit happening as long as long as they 0:39:13.320 --> 0:39:17.520 fucking get to do another story about how fucking JK 0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:20.600 Rowling is a brave truth teller or whatever like this, 0:39:20.840 --> 0:39:23.319 this is what these people want. I agree, and I 0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:26.160 also agree with your statement. Uh, the British media cannot 0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:29.719 call fuck themselves and I hope they've Robben. Hell yeah, 0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:32.760 I don't know how you can, as a journalist, someone 0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:36.320 trained to prioritize the truth and nothing but the truth, 0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:40.120 look at all this and think this is suspicious going 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:43.480 on here. There's nothing that warrant further investigation, even if 0:39:43.480 --> 0:39:46.440 Malcolm's claims are false, right, even if everything Malcolm says 0:39:46.600 --> 0:39:49.319 he made it up. He's an influential guy. He has 0:39:49.360 --> 0:39:51.799 been covered by the media for his lawsuits with the 0:39:51.800 --> 0:39:56.000 Good Law Project countless time before. He's made national headlines there. 0:39:56.640 --> 0:40:00.279 And they don't investigate this at all, Like, yeah, they're 0:40:00.360 --> 0:40:04.279 rushing to report on everything fucking JK Rowling says everything 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:09.560 some random fucking turf is saying, May Angelou whoever ter 0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:10.279 if you want to run? 0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:13.080 Oh yeah, I'm realizing there are people listening to this. 0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:15.000 I don't know, maybe you're still listening to the episode 0:40:15.000 --> 0:40:17.440 and you don't know about the JK rolling Turf stuff, 0:40:17.440 --> 0:40:21.000 but like to get an understanding of like how vehement 0:40:21.200 --> 0:40:24.360 of like an anti trans hate figure she is, Like 0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:27.640 anti trans groups literally wear her face as a mask. 0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:31.160 Like I'm not joking. She she she fucking retweeted them 0:40:31.719 --> 0:40:35.680 an anti trans group literally wearing like printed out copies 0:40:35.719 --> 0:40:38.040 of her face as a mask. Like that is that? 0:40:38.040 --> 0:40:41.080 That is the status that she has in the anti 0:40:41.120 --> 0:40:45.640 trans world right, Like and then the VBC fucking loves 0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:49.080 her so everything she does and she's not even an 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:50.240 expert in anything. 0:40:50.280 --> 0:40:53.600 She's a fucking author of children's books. 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:56.880 Like yeah, you know it's like, well, we'll talk to 0:40:56.920 --> 0:40:59.120 the authors of Sheldon's book when we talk to trans people, know, 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:00.719 And I mean that's what ever thing about this is, 0:41:00.800 --> 0:41:03.239 Like the BBC never talked to a transperson. They did 0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:05.200 talk to an anti transhaite group though, so you know, 0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:09.080 you know, you know what fucking side of this is 0:41:09.200 --> 0:41:13.920 considered valid by the British political and media establishment. Oh 0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:16.360 and also at the bottom and like, I know that 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:18.640 they're doing this because this is just like standard policy 0:41:18.760 --> 0:41:20.800 for like if you're doing a thing story about suicide, 0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:24.200 but the very end of the article is a is 0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:26.600 a link to a bunch of suicide and crisis hotlines, 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:33.000 So uh, one last fuck you to every transperson reading this. Yeah, 0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:35.560 the one two punch of we quoted an anti trans 0:41:35.600 --> 0:41:39.720 hate figure, here's a suicide hotline is like real, who. 0:41:39.760 --> 0:41:42.680 Yeah, it's a it's a fucking insult it. 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:43.800 Yeah. 0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:47.960 It just gets me how they didn't report on these 0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:50.480 claims at all when they were initially made, Like it 0:41:50.520 --> 0:41:53.200 didn't even have to be a big story, Like most 0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:56.040 fucking outlets I've written for would have just reported as like, 0:41:56.040 --> 0:41:59.440 oh this, this guy said this, we're waiting more information, okay, whatever. 0:41:59.440 --> 0:42:01.480 It wouldn't be a good reporting, but it'd be the 0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:04.160 bare minimum. We didn't even do that. They rushed to 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:07.799 just to repeat whatever the fuck. A commission review from 0:42:07.880 --> 0:42:13.200 the government said, that's more reputable, I guess than you know, 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:18.600 leading advocates who actually cited their sources instead of just 0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:19.560 during shit at the wall. 0:42:20.120 --> 0:42:22.600 Yep, And I think that's that's That's as good of 0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:24.560 a place as endy to stop. Less you have anything 0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:27.239 else you want to make sure people know about about this, No, 0:42:27.360 --> 0:42:29.120 I think that's it. Yeah, thank you so much for 0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:30.960 coming on the show. And where can people find you 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:31.520 in your work? 0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:35.960 Yeah? Thank you for having me. I I can primarily 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:39.120 be found on Blue Sky That is the main place 0:42:39.320 --> 0:42:41.920 I post now. Yeah, I'm at meural u gene a 0:42:42.000 --> 0:42:46.319 blue sky dot social. Beyond that, you'll probably see one 0:42:46.360 --> 0:42:51.880 of my articles published around because I am constantly working 0:42:51.880 --> 0:42:53.200 my ass off. 0:42:53.760 --> 0:42:56.000 Yeah, so this is what it could happen here. Yeah, 0:42:56.040 --> 0:42:57.759 I don't know. I mean, there's still time for this 0:42:57.880 --> 0:43:02.440 not to happen here. So yeah, go go organize and 0:43:02.480 --> 0:43:04.719 go make West Reading and the BBC have a bad day. 0:43:05.320 --> 0:43:30.480 Hell yeah, hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. 0:43:30.560 --> 0:43:33.920 It's me James today here to bring you more terrible 0:43:34.000 --> 0:43:38.640 news about migration and deportation. And I'm joined to share 0:43:38.680 --> 0:43:42.640 that terrible news by Gillian Bruckell, a journalist who has 0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:48.359 been tracking deportation flights to dbooty. Hi Gillian, Hi, how 0:43:48.400 --> 0:43:48.640 are you? 0:43:48.719 --> 0:43:49.040 James? 0:43:49.280 --> 0:43:52.880 I'm good. Well, amidst the crumbling of everything, that's wonderful. 0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:55.720 Yeah, I mean, this is terrible news, but I'm also 0:43:55.840 --> 0:43:59.360 very excited to be in the Cool Zone Universe. 0:43:59.640 --> 0:44:01.440 I love all of the shows. 0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:05.240 Yeah, welcome, welcome to the called universe. It's the Sophie 0:44:05.280 --> 0:44:07.040 Lichtman comic universe. 0:44:07.120 --> 0:44:08.880 Oh my god, such a fangirl. 0:44:09.719 --> 0:44:14.840 Okay, the United States government attempted to deport twelve men, 0:44:15.600 --> 0:44:19.120 none of whom are Libyan, to Libya on the seventh 0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:22.600 of May. Right, it got so far as to take 0:44:22.640 --> 0:44:28.120 them to the airport right in San Antonio, in San Antonio, Texas. 0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:32.319 And then thanks to a injunction court injunction, those people 0:44:32.360 --> 0:44:34.960 were not taken to Libya. Those people were in said, 0:44:35.000 --> 0:44:38.279 returned to an intention center. Where as listeners the show 0:44:38.320 --> 0:44:42.359 will now be aware they were informed that they were 0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:46.200 being deported renditioned, how you want to say it, to 0:44:46.360 --> 0:44:52.560 South Sudan. This news broke a couple of days ago, now, 0:44:52.600 --> 0:44:56.960 I think Tuesday, Tuesday afternoon, yeah, yeah, and that was 0:44:57.000 --> 0:45:00.400 when you were able to begin using your or like 0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:05.760 o in aviation knowledge looking for like this this flight 0:45:05.880 --> 0:45:07.960 right that was taking him to Seal Sudan, because at 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:10.799 the time, yeah, the United States government was claiming that 0:45:10.920 --> 0:45:14.120 the flight was was classified or like a state secret. 0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:19.000 And even in court the judge wasn't aware of the 0:45:19.040 --> 0:45:21.640 flight was in the air on the ground, could it 0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:24.120 turn around? Judging the anthony was going to ask it 0:45:24.160 --> 0:45:27.040 to turn around. So I wonder if you could like 0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:31.480 walk listeners through the time none of this deportation and 0:45:31.520 --> 0:45:34.680 then how you were able to find of millions of 0:45:34.840 --> 0:45:37.000 maybe not million, thousands of planes in the sky the 0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:39.879 one that was taking these people to as it turned 0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:40.640 out to Jubooty. 0:45:41.080 --> 0:45:41.400 Sure. 0:45:41.640 --> 0:45:45.239 Yeah, So I've been a journalist for fifteen years, but 0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:48.880 before that, I was a flight attendant. And you know, 0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:53.600 I'm an av geek, an aviation enthusiast. The shorthand you know, 0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:56.279 the hashtag for that is af geek, And so you know, 0:45:56.360 --> 0:45:59.040 I'm always looking at flight Radar twenty four. It's an 0:45:59.120 --> 0:46:02.239 app where you can track different aircraft. And so when 0:46:02.280 --> 0:46:05.640 I heard that the flight might still be in the air, 0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:08.200 I just thought, I wonder if I can find it, 0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:13.200 so I win. First I went on to flight Radar 0:46:13.360 --> 0:46:16.600 twenty four, and first I looked at all of the 0:46:16.600 --> 0:46:20.320 departures out of San Antonio for like the previous twenty 0:46:20.360 --> 0:46:23.440 four hours since the previous flight that was supposed to 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:26.960 go to Libya that was stopped, that departed from San Antonio. 0:46:27.000 --> 0:46:27.560 And so I was. 0:46:27.520 --> 0:46:32.239 Looking there and you know, didn't see anything just commercial flights, 0:46:32.480 --> 0:46:36.800 very obviously military flights, and I know they've used military 0:46:36.840 --> 0:46:39.080 aircraft sometimes, but I said, I'm not going to try 0:46:39.120 --> 0:46:40.640 and touch that right now. I want to see if 0:46:40.640 --> 0:46:44.040 it's one of these charter companies, you know, global X, 0:46:44.080 --> 0:46:46.600 a Vello, that have been doing these deportation flights. 0:46:47.040 --> 0:46:49.160 Can you explain those to people, because I don't think 0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:50.439 everyone's aware of those. 0:46:51.000 --> 0:46:54.640 So these are you know, commercial carriers, but they're they're 0:46:54.680 --> 0:47:01.160 contracting with DHS to deport people on their So you know, 0:47:01.640 --> 0:47:05.440 the A three twenty that you take across the country 0:47:05.600 --> 0:47:10.520 is sometimes used to deport people to other countries. And 0:47:10.719 --> 0:47:13.919 the main companies that are doing that right now are 0:47:14.200 --> 0:47:18.440 a Vello, global X. I think Omni does some of 0:47:18.480 --> 0:47:23.359 them sometimes. And I should say there are a lot 0:47:23.400 --> 0:47:25.839 of people, especially on Blue Sky, a lot of av 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.600 geeks who are tracking and cataloging all of these flights. 0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:34.240 I wasn't even aware of that community until I started 0:47:34.440 --> 0:47:39.319 looking for so I didn't see anything, you know, in 0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:42.080 San Antonio, and then I realized, oh, these people had 0:47:42.080 --> 0:47:45.240 been transferred to Port Isabelle in the last few weeks, 0:47:45.560 --> 0:47:48.800 so they would have departed out of Harlingen Airport, which 0:47:48.840 --> 0:47:52.600 is nearby. It's you know, a deep deep South Texas, 0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:55.840 and so I looked at departures out of harling and 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:59.080 it's a small airport. They have like ten departures a day, 0:47:59.120 --> 0:48:03.480 and it's generally puddle jumpers from one small Texas town 0:48:03.520 --> 0:48:06.080 to another small Texas town, you know. And there was 0:48:06.160 --> 0:48:11.960 one global X flight to Miami the day before. The 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:15.360 timeline wasn't exactly right, but I know that DHS, you know, 0:48:15.719 --> 0:48:20.160 has been slow to notify attorneys. Yeah, so I thought, well, 0:48:20.239 --> 0:48:23.399 maybe this is the flight, and they just didn't tell 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:24.600 the attorneys till the next day. 0:48:25.360 --> 0:48:26.880 So then I spent way. 0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:29.680 Too much time looking at all of the departures out 0:48:29.719 --> 0:48:33.120 of Miami to see if there were any Global X flights. 0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:35.720 I saw a few things, but you know, nothing heading 0:48:35.760 --> 0:48:41.480 across the Atlantic. And so at that point, Flight Radar 0:48:41.800 --> 0:48:47.480 twenty four will show you publicly available information on flights. 0:48:47.480 --> 0:48:48.920 It won't show you all flights. 0:48:49.400 --> 0:48:53.160 But there is another you know, for like deep deep 0:48:53.200 --> 0:48:58.319 ab geeks, there's another website called ADSB Exchange, and this 0:48:58.400 --> 0:49:01.960 is a pool of all feeder data all over the 0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:07.120 world of all aircraft in the air that aviation enthusiasts 0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:13.040 maintain themselves. And they will have military flights that aren't 0:49:13.080 --> 0:49:16.040 going to be on Flight Radar twenty four. They also 0:49:16.080 --> 0:49:20.600 have a lot more information about planes that have a 0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:27.520 lad designation, which stands for Limited Aviation Data displayed. I 0:49:27.520 --> 0:49:29.680 don't know how much you want me to explain about that. 0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:32.400 Yeah, explain, explain. I think it's interesting for people. 0:49:32.840 --> 0:49:36.480 Sure, So LAD designation is used most often for like 0:49:36.840 --> 0:49:40.359 private jet owners, like celebrities and you know, the ultra rich. 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:43.880 And basically it means that they have an extra layer 0:49:44.560 --> 0:49:49.960 of privacy for their movements in their private jets. So 0:49:50.560 --> 0:49:56.520 if you try and find a specific private jet on flight. 0:49:56.360 --> 0:49:59.000 Radar twenty four, it won't come up. 0:49:59.320 --> 0:49:59.520 You know. 0:49:59.560 --> 0:50:02.480 So, the the tail of this plane that did the 0:50:02.600 --> 0:50:07.120 Jibouty flight is N five AA eight eight a T. 0:50:08.080 --> 0:50:10.040 If you search for that in flight radar twenty four, 0:50:10.080 --> 0:50:11.200 you won't see it. 0:50:11.600 --> 0:50:12.440 Nothing will come up. 0:50:12.960 --> 0:50:17.919 However, if you know what you're looking for, if you know, like, oh, 0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:20.640 I think the flight is heading to Jibouti right now, 0:50:20.960 --> 0:50:24.040 you can see on flight radar twenty four that there's 0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:26.960 a Gulf Stream five headed to Jabooti right now, but 0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:30.759 the registration information is obscured. Okay, you know it's not 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:34.600 like that on the ADSB you can you can see it. Yeah, 0:50:34.680 --> 0:50:37.560 your filters have a lot more power. Basically, you know 0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:42.880 your search terms, they're going to go around different designations, okay, 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:45.400 and so some people hate that. You know, Taylor Swift 0:50:45.440 --> 0:50:47.719 had beef with some guy a couple of years ago 0:50:48.200 --> 0:50:51.040 because she has a LAD designation on her private jet. 0:50:51.200 --> 0:50:55.319 He was using ADSB exchange to post her flights, you know, 0:50:55.440 --> 0:50:59.319 ostensibly for to shame her for her carbon footprint. But 0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:02.000 then she threatened to sue him. And she was like, 0:51:02.040 --> 0:51:04.359 I have stalkers, like I don't want them to know 0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:07.719 when I'm landing in Nashville. You know, not going to 0:51:07.760 --> 0:51:10.640 get into that, but you know, that's basically the LAD 0:51:10.640 --> 0:51:16.480 designation and ADSB doesn't care. And so I went on 0:51:16.560 --> 0:51:19.480 ADSB and I said, well, since I've already seen all 0:51:19.480 --> 0:51:22.920 the publicly available flights, let me just look at LAD flights, okay. 0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:25.000 And so I set that filter. 0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:28.960 And that took it down to a couple hundred planes 0:51:29.120 --> 0:51:31.960 in the air, and I honestly just got lucky. I 0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:35.200 just started clicking on planes because I don't know how 0:51:35.239 --> 0:51:37.839 to search for all departures out of one airport on 0:51:37.920 --> 0:51:40.480 ADSP exchange. I'm sure AV geeks who are better at 0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:43.880 it do, but I just started clicking on planes and 0:51:43.920 --> 0:51:46.080 I clicked I think like the third plane that I 0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:49.879 clicked on had taken off out of Harlingen a couple 0:51:50.000 --> 0:51:53.279 hours earlier and was over the middle of the Atlantic, 0:51:54.080 --> 0:51:56.920 which is not a usual departure for Harlingen. 0:51:57.280 --> 0:52:00.920 Right, Yeah, that's quite a. 0:51:59.600 --> 0:52:04.280 D and so you know, I posted on Blue Sky 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:08.040 to the other av geeks who were looking for it. 0:52:09.000 --> 0:52:10.000 I think this might be it. 0:52:10.600 --> 0:52:14.719 You know, it's a private jet with a LAD designation 0:52:15.080 --> 0:52:19.360 that took off from this very obscure airport and is 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:24.400 traveling internationally. Nothing else really fit the profile, right, so 0:52:25.000 --> 0:52:29.840 we all started looking at it. Another reporter named Jacqueline Sweet. 0:52:29.920 --> 0:52:32.480 You know, I looked up the registration. It's registered to 0:52:32.600 --> 0:52:36.080 a man named Igor Smirnov, which there are a lot 0:52:36.160 --> 0:52:37.359 of Igor Smirnov's. 0:52:37.440 --> 0:52:39.799 Yeah, it's a pretty common name. 0:52:40.120 --> 0:52:43.120 He's not the Chess guy, he's not the Moldovan guy. 0:52:43.760 --> 0:52:46.800 He appears to have once owned an airline in his 0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:49.000 Pakistan and has been in the US for some time. 0:52:49.920 --> 0:52:52.279 So he has, you know, this private jet. And then 0:52:52.360 --> 0:52:56.000 Jacqueline Sweet looked up that yes, he has DHS contracts. 0:52:56.200 --> 0:52:56.560 Okay. 0:52:57.200 --> 0:52:58.359 Then the other thing was. 0:52:58.960 --> 0:53:03.239 I just googled the tail number M five eight eight. 0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:07.200 One of the first things that came up was that 0:53:07.640 --> 0:53:08.359 this was the. 0:53:08.280 --> 0:53:15.319 Private jet that carried Britney Griner home from Russia when 0:53:15.400 --> 0:53:19.680 she had been released in a prisoner swap. Yeah, and 0:53:19.800 --> 0:53:22.840 so that, you know, was the thing where I was like, okay, 0:53:22.960 --> 0:53:27.680 this this plane's been used for like weird government business before. 0:53:28.320 --> 0:53:32.480 Yeah, like I think I think this might be it. Yeah, 0:53:32.520 --> 0:53:33.600 so that's when I posted. 0:53:33.719 --> 0:53:36.600 Once I realized the Britney Grinder thing, then I posted 0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:40.399 it and other people, other av geeks were saying, yeah, 0:53:40.520 --> 0:53:42.719 I think that might be it, and then you know, 0:53:43.320 --> 0:53:48.440 Jacqueline got more info on the contracts and so this 0:53:48.520 --> 0:53:51.240 is for about two hours we watched it and JJ 0:53:51.400 --> 0:53:54.560 and DC said I think it's about to land in Shannon, 0:53:54.960 --> 0:53:59.560 and you know, soon enough it descended and landed at Shannon. 0:54:10.719 --> 0:54:16.280 So Shannon Airport in Ireland is a frequent refueling stop 0:54:16.520 --> 0:54:20.880 for the US military, and you know that's something that 0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:23.200 a lot of Irish people really fucking hate. 0:54:23.600 --> 0:54:26.400 Yeah. Not a US base, to be clear if people don't. 0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:29.120 Away, Yeah, it's not a US base. These are this 0:54:29.239 --> 0:54:32.719 is US military that are just they're just refueling, but 0:54:32.840 --> 0:54:37.520 they're refueling to you know, do a lot of things 0:54:37.600 --> 0:54:41.640 that the Irish are not okay with Yeah, and so 0:54:41.840 --> 0:54:46.839 there's there's an organization there called Shannon Watch, who you know, 0:54:46.920 --> 0:54:50.440 they're watching all these US activities and you know, pressuring 0:54:50.440 --> 0:54:54.920 the government to stop this. So, you know, I tried 0:54:54.960 --> 0:54:58.440 to email them before the plane even landed. And I 0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:00.560 don't know if it was the user air on my 0:55:00.800 --> 0:55:03.480 end or you know, if I don't know why I 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:05.680 didn't work, but they didn't get the message. 0:55:06.080 --> 0:55:08.319 I only found that out like half an hour ago. 0:55:09.280 --> 0:55:12.880 Yeah, But so I messaged them, and then I like 0:55:13.520 --> 0:55:16.080 messaged a couple friends in Ireland like. 0:55:16.360 --> 0:55:18.120 Hey, wake up, wake up. 0:55:18.640 --> 0:55:21.520 You didn't call somebody, you know. 0:55:21.800 --> 0:55:24.480 But there's two thirty in the morning. I'm glad my 0:55:24.520 --> 0:55:30.320 friends were asleep. And yeah. So I don't know how 0:55:30.880 --> 0:55:34.200 how much I wanted to get into my personal hedging 0:55:34.360 --> 0:55:36.880 or my journey. But you know, I used to be 0:55:37.120 --> 0:55:41.600 like a neutral, objective journalist at the Washington Post for 0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:43.759 ten years and I left a year and a half ago, 0:55:43.880 --> 0:55:49.040 and I've been enjoying being an opinionated journalist. I've been 0:55:49.080 --> 0:55:52.840 writing a book. But you know, there's a difference between 0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:58.399 being an opinionated journalist and actually interfering in a story. Yeah, 0:55:58.440 --> 0:56:00.560 and so I kind of hedged from an of like 0:56:00.680 --> 0:56:03.960 should I should I do anything else? Should I actively 0:56:04.680 --> 0:56:08.359 participate in trying to stop this flight? You know, am 0:56:08.400 --> 0:56:11.000 I not going to get a columns job someday if 0:56:11.040 --> 0:56:14.600 I do that? Yeah, you know, I'm ashamed to say that. 0:56:14.640 --> 0:56:16.480 But I have to tell the truth. That's what I thought. 0:56:17.239 --> 0:56:21.359 And then I just decided, you know, screw it, I 0:56:21.360 --> 0:56:24.680 have to do the right thing. So I called the 0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:26.120 Shannon Airport police. 0:56:28.080 --> 0:56:29.720 I called the Shannon Garda. 0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:34.200 I called the police, the garden in Ireland and h 0:56:34.920 --> 0:56:38.799 I talked to you know whatever man answered for like 0:56:38.840 --> 0:56:41.279 a minute, and then he was like, let me let me, 0:56:41.480 --> 0:56:44.239 you know, knock you up the chain. And I was 0:56:44.320 --> 0:56:50.080 forwarded to someone else, to a woman who you know, 0:56:50.280 --> 0:56:54.560 she sounded smart, urgent, interested, It sounded like she was 0:56:54.560 --> 0:56:57.400 taking notes. It sounded like she was taking this seriously. 0:56:58.160 --> 0:57:01.359 And I was saying, there's a play with this tail 0:57:01.480 --> 0:57:07.800 number that landed fifteen minutes ago, that may have people 0:57:07.880 --> 0:57:13.920 on board who have been illegally removed from the United States, 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:20.280 who have not consented to go to their destination, who 0:57:20.320 --> 0:57:22.440 are being sent to South Sudan when they are not 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:26.240 from Sauth Sudan. You know, and I made clear that, like, 0:57:26.480 --> 0:57:29.720 I don't know that this is the right plane, but 0:57:30.120 --> 0:57:32.680 I'm pretty sure that it is. This plane has been 0:57:32.800 --> 0:57:38.520 used before for US government business. And I said, I 0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:44.000 know that our judges' orders don't matter in your sovereign country, 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:48.560 but a judge has said this is not allowed, and 0:57:48.600 --> 0:57:51.280 it might be happening. And I don't know what your 0:57:51.320 --> 0:57:56.960 human trafficking laws are like, but you should know that 0:57:57.240 --> 0:58:01.640 if there are human trafficking or kidnapping laws in Ireland 0:58:01.720 --> 0:58:06.120 that might apply to this, like maybe check the plane. Yeah, 0:58:06.360 --> 0:58:10.080 and you know, I didn't record the call and I 0:58:10.120 --> 0:58:14.880 didn't take notes, but I do recall her saying that 0:58:15.000 --> 0:58:18.040 she was trying to send someone to check the plane, 0:58:18.240 --> 0:58:20.320 and she was, you know, taking detailed notes. 0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:22.880 What are their nationalities? How many are there? 0:58:23.760 --> 0:58:23.960 You know? 0:58:25.080 --> 0:58:28.640 And yes, so you know, the call lasted thirteen minutes, 0:58:28.680 --> 0:58:34.520 and then I waited, you know, was talking with the 0:58:34.560 --> 0:58:38.040 other av geeks on Blue Sky who were at this point, 0:58:38.160 --> 0:58:40.280 you know, this is around ten pm. 0:58:40.520 --> 0:58:41.560 It's getting a little late. 0:58:42.080 --> 0:58:46.280 And then yeah, I don't know what happened, but the 0:58:46.320 --> 0:58:50.479 plane taxi to a parking stamp near the terminal for 0:58:50.560 --> 0:58:54.480 a while, and I thought, oh, it's been it's been 0:58:54.520 --> 0:58:56.400 turned off, it's parked for the night. I don't think 0:58:56.400 --> 0:59:00.640 they're going to let him leave. Yeah, and then the 0:59:00.760 --> 0:59:03.880 plane took off. It was two hours after it landed. 0:59:06.120 --> 0:59:06.920 Yeah. 0:59:07.000 --> 0:59:10.720 Yeah, and it went to JABOUTI where it remains at 0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:15.720 the time of recording. Yeah, it's been raised since you 0:59:16.240 --> 0:59:20.160 first kind of identified this plane, it's been raised. I 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:23.360 talked to Dallas or like an Irish member of parliament 0:59:23.840 --> 0:59:27.480 raised it today. I saw there was an exchange about it. 0:59:27.760 --> 0:59:34.600 I spoke to Paul Murphy, who's the TV for Dublin's Southwest. Paul, 0:59:34.640 --> 0:59:37.120 get me a statement I'm going to read here. The 0:59:37.200 --> 0:59:39.640 very least Sierrish government must do is to inform the 0:59:39.720 --> 0:59:42.880 US authorities that no more deportation flights are permitted to 0:59:42.960 --> 0:59:46.320 use our airspace, in our airports. We must not facilitate 0:59:46.320 --> 0:59:50.760 this in humane an illegal deportation policy. It does seem 0:59:50.840 --> 0:59:53.520 like even if nothing we're done in this instance, hopefully 0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:56.320 this isn't something that will be able to happen again. 0:59:56.400 --> 0:59:58.640 I know, as you said, people have been upset about 0:59:58.640 --> 1:00:01.200 that use of Shannon. I think they used Knock Airport 1:00:01.280 --> 1:00:03.760 as well, like for a long time because the US 1:00:03.880 --> 1:00:05.360 use them a lot in the in the in its 1:00:05.480 --> 1:00:08.200 war on terror. An Ireland has been a neutral country 1:00:08.920 --> 1:00:11.240 for a long time, and that's a feeling that it 1:00:11.320 --> 1:00:15.080 compromises that among some people. But this raises a really 1:00:15.120 --> 1:00:20.200 interesting question for those of us who are following the deportations, right, 1:00:20.240 --> 1:00:22.720 which is like we've been thinking that it was happening 1:00:22.720 --> 1:00:25.680 on military or commercial flights, like you said, but there's 1:00:25.720 --> 1:00:30.960 this possibility that these smaller planes are being used for deportation, 1:00:31.160 --> 1:00:34.120 and like that's very concerning. I means we could have 1:00:34.160 --> 1:00:38.520 missed things absolutely. It also shows the timeline here is 1:00:38.560 --> 1:00:44.919 extraordinarily rapid, right, Like from the people being informed at 1:00:44.960 --> 1:00:48.640 six pm, I believe it's six pm Pacific. I've been 1:00:48.640 --> 1:00:50.919 spending a lot of time on Pacer this week. Yeah, 1:00:52.040 --> 1:00:54.760 good old Pacer yep, A lot of the money generated 1:00:54.800 --> 1:00:57.840 by the adverts in this show on Pacer. So six 1:00:57.960 --> 1:01:01.000 thirty five Central time and M who is one of 1:01:01.040 --> 1:01:04.560 the Burmese people in this this class action lawsuit, right, So, 1:01:04.640 --> 1:01:08.560 the lawsuit a number of people trying to get attentative 1:01:08.600 --> 1:01:11.840 restraining order against being sent to South Soudan now previously Libya, 1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:14.520 six eighty five Central time. That person's lawyer was told 1:01:14.560 --> 1:01:18.880 that they had an order of removal at nine am Pacific. 1:01:19.240 --> 1:01:22.840 The lawyer had scheduled of video conference, but at eight 1:01:22.840 --> 1:01:26.720 twenty seven Pacific, they were told that that person had 1:01:26.760 --> 1:01:32.680 already been removed. Yeah, so pretty fast. And like perhaps 1:01:32.680 --> 1:01:35.840 that's why they're using these like small can you give 1:01:35.840 --> 1:01:38.040 an idea of like, I guess a lot of people 1:01:38.040 --> 1:01:39.720 weren't a phone on a small aircraft, but these are 1:01:39.760 --> 1:01:42.800 quite like this isn't a usual thing, right to be 1:01:42.920 --> 1:01:43.480 be No. 1:01:43.600 --> 1:01:45.040 This is a luxury jet. 1:01:45.400 --> 1:01:51.240 Yeah, that you know is moonlighting as a prisoner vessel 1:01:51.400 --> 1:01:56.680 for for kidnappers. And I just I'm so struck by 1:01:57.320 --> 1:02:03.280 the dichotomy of the law luxury of this vessel transporting 1:02:03.320 --> 1:02:08.200 them to Hell, to a country where they do not 1:02:08.360 --> 1:02:12.000 speak the language, they have no family or friends, to 1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:15.760 you know, a prison where people are being tortured that 1:02:15.880 --> 1:02:18.680 is about to descend into civil war, may already be 1:02:18.680 --> 1:02:21.880 in civil war. I mean the economy of that is 1:02:21.920 --> 1:02:25.240 so striking to me. Yeah, and so perverse. 1:02:25.880 --> 1:02:28.400 Yeah, perverse is a right word. It is, like it's uh, 1:02:29.080 --> 1:02:32.840 perversely ludicrous. I don't know, Like it's so striking to 1:02:32.880 --> 1:02:36.200 me as well that somebody who has the financial means 1:02:36.200 --> 1:02:38.760 to own a private luxury jet to find themselves around 1:02:38.800 --> 1:02:43.520 the world. Is also profiting of the rendition of people 1:02:43.600 --> 1:02:47.480 who are trying now to plead in Convention against torture. Right, 1:02:48.120 --> 1:02:51.840 they will be tortured if they are flown via luxury 1:02:51.880 --> 1:02:55.680 private jet to South Sudan, and that South Sudanese government 1:02:55.720 --> 1:02:57.480 seems to have stated that it would just return them 1:02:57.480 --> 1:02:59.320 to their countries from which they have withholding in for 1:02:59.400 --> 1:03:01.520 movement in the first spaces. Why the US can't send 1:03:01.520 --> 1:03:02.880 them to their countries. 1:03:02.600 --> 1:03:05.680 Right, That's why the US hasn't done it, right, It's like, 1:03:06.120 --> 1:03:09.200 you know, it's a diplomatic pickle. But like the solution 1:03:10.280 --> 1:03:14.280 is in, we'll just you know, dump them somewhere else. 1:03:14.720 --> 1:03:17.040 Right, Yeah, and then they have someone else do iday work, 1:03:17.120 --> 1:03:20.080 like send them back. Right. You found these contracts. Do 1:03:20.080 --> 1:03:22.760 you know how much DHS is spending like per flight 1:03:22.840 --> 1:03:24.080 on these things? 1:03:24.320 --> 1:03:25.280 I have no idea. 1:03:25.400 --> 1:03:29.280 I mean that is something that other reporters, I think, 1:03:29.440 --> 1:03:32.640 are you know, going to be better sources of that information. 1:03:33.080 --> 1:03:37.960 I've really just begun tracking these flights, right, you know, 1:03:38.080 --> 1:03:40.160 I like to track flights all the time. 1:03:40.040 --> 1:03:41.800 Just because I have ADHD. 1:03:42.040 --> 1:03:45.960 You know, it's a wonderful activity if you're neurodivergent to 1:03:45.960 --> 1:03:50.680 spend some time on adsp exchange. But but like I said, 1:03:50.760 --> 1:03:52.800 I was just like, I wonder if I can find 1:03:52.800 --> 1:03:53.400 this plane? 1:03:53.800 --> 1:03:54.040 Yeah? 1:03:54.280 --> 1:03:54.800 And I did. 1:03:55.280 --> 1:03:59.520 Yeah, And that has opened up a whole world to 1:03:59.600 --> 1:04:03.560 me of you know, really dedicated people. Tom Cartwright is one, 1:04:03.720 --> 1:04:06.520 and then JJ and DC is another. He wants to 1:04:06.560 --> 1:04:10.480 remain anonymous, got it who have been tracking these planes 1:04:11.040 --> 1:04:15.800 for some time And I'm really inspired by them and 1:04:16.480 --> 1:04:28.400 you know, want to join them and help them. 1:04:29.000 --> 1:04:31.160 We see a number of issues like that. We can 1:04:31.400 --> 1:04:33.040 questions that we can answer with these things, right, the 1:04:33.120 --> 1:04:35.520 United States deporting people to Venezuela, but there are lots 1:04:35.520 --> 1:04:38.280 of eies in Venezuela which are under sanctions, right, So 1:04:38.400 --> 1:04:40.240 like how is it doing that? Who is it paying 1:04:40.280 --> 1:04:43.520 to do that? Like where is our taxpayer money going? 1:04:43.560 --> 1:04:47.560 How much is it costing to achieve this rendition of 1:04:48.120 --> 1:04:52.280 a dozen people? Right who at the current time of 1:04:52.320 --> 1:04:56.320 our recording, which is Thursday afternoon Pacific time, the twenty 1:04:57.920 --> 1:05:02.280 second of May, they go. I just checked the pacer again, 1:05:02.920 --> 1:05:05.880 which is what I do all day now, and Judge 1:05:05.960 --> 1:05:09.640 Murphy's most recent order had clarified that these people would 1:05:09.640 --> 1:05:14.200 have ten days to present their reasonable fear right, so 1:05:14.280 --> 1:05:18.640 to present their reasonable fear and convention against torture proceedings 1:05:18.960 --> 1:05:21.560 that they would be they could face torture right if 1:05:21.600 --> 1:05:25.640 they were sent to these places. If the Department of 1:05:25.640 --> 1:05:29.760 Homeland Security determined that they didn't have credible fear, then 1:05:29.760 --> 1:05:32.800 they would have fifteen days to again petition for reopening 1:05:32.840 --> 1:05:36.440 of their migration case. So that's twenty five days for 1:05:36.480 --> 1:05:39.360 those who accounting that these people will presumably now have 1:05:39.400 --> 1:05:43.320 to be accommodated in Djibouty. The DHS is claiming that 1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:45.640 they can do all these interviews and that one assess 1:05:45.680 --> 1:05:49.000 tate translators, Like one of them speaks Korn, not a 1:05:49.080 --> 1:05:51.240 language that we have. I mean that there are lots 1:05:51.240 --> 1:05:54.040 of Curren speaking people in the United States, but it's 1:05:54.080 --> 1:05:56.400 you know, it's not language that many immigration lawyers speak. 1:05:56.400 --> 1:05:59.520 So I'm guessing there will have to be a translator provided. 1:06:00.000 --> 1:06:01.760 So all that is now happening into Booty and like 1:06:01.800 --> 1:06:04.240 we wouldn't have known that if we hadn't been able 1:06:04.280 --> 1:06:08.080 to track these flights, right, and so it's a very 1:06:08.080 --> 1:06:13.840 interesting way of approaching this. And I think like increasingly 1:06:14.360 --> 1:06:16.840 the government have recently lost a number of fire requests. 1:06:16.920 --> 1:06:21.240 I guess, like public records do not move at the 1:06:21.240 --> 1:06:24.560 same speed as the news cycle does. I file a 1:06:24.600 --> 1:06:28.160 lot of public records requests, most of them I don't 1:06:28.160 --> 1:06:29.040 get anything back. 1:06:29.240 --> 1:06:32.240 The ones that I can take like eight years sometimes. 1:06:31.760 --> 1:06:35.920 Yeah, literally, Yeah, I mean I have public records requests 1:06:35.960 --> 1:06:39.160 that I made under the previous Trump administration that I 1:06:39.200 --> 1:06:43.000 believe are still ongoing. Yeah, it's infuriatingly slowly. You have 1:06:43.000 --> 1:06:45.280 a right to inspect these records, but you don't have 1:06:45.320 --> 1:06:47.680 a right to inspect them in any particular time period. 1:06:48.280 --> 1:06:51.880 And so doing this kind of open source tracking offers 1:06:51.960 --> 1:06:54.960 us a window into this deportation machine that the government 1:06:55.000 --> 1:06:58.720 is building right exactly in cooperation with the super rich, 1:06:59.040 --> 1:07:02.480 like using your taxpayer resources. I would if people are 1:07:02.520 --> 1:07:05.960 interested in doing this, like, how would you suggest they 1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:08.840 kind of get going? They could explain it out there. 1:07:09.160 --> 1:07:10.680 I mean, the first thing I would do is that 1:07:10.720 --> 1:07:13.960 I would follow Tom Cartwright and JJ and DC on 1:07:14.200 --> 1:07:17.920 Blue Sky. Then you know, get the flight Radar twenty 1:07:17.920 --> 1:07:20.920 four app. You can see a lot of the charter 1:07:21.000 --> 1:07:25.840 planes on that app. ADSB Exchange is pretty buggy and 1:07:25.880 --> 1:07:29.840 hard to use. If you don't have any aviation experience 1:07:29.880 --> 1:07:35.040 at all, but you know you can learn. Yeah, and yeah, 1:07:35.160 --> 1:07:37.960 I mean, like I said, if you're neuro divergent, this 1:07:38.000 --> 1:07:41.720 is a terrific activity to just kind of like massage 1:07:41.720 --> 1:07:45.360 your brain and hyper focus, and you know, putting it 1:07:45.400 --> 1:07:50.200 to good purpose to maybe witness or maybe even stop 1:07:50.680 --> 1:07:53.880 some of these activities from happening, you know, would be great. 1:07:54.320 --> 1:07:54.520 Yeah. 1:07:54.600 --> 1:07:58.600 No, I think that's like there are countries which have 1:07:58.760 --> 1:08:03.600 strong legislation that could possibly prevent these you know, these 1:08:03.680 --> 1:08:06.720 either planes transiting their airspace or if they're refueling there 1:08:06.840 --> 1:08:09.400 as you as you said in an Ireland, like perhaps 1:08:09.680 --> 1:08:13.000 prevent these people being renditioned to somewhere where they might 1:08:13.040 --> 1:08:15.440 face torture. And I think it's a really valuable absolutely 1:08:15.480 --> 1:08:18.360 thing to try, Like we should try whatever we can 1:08:18.520 --> 1:08:18.880 right now. 1:08:19.680 --> 1:08:23.720 Yeah, and I mean now that Ireland knows this is happening, 1:08:23.920 --> 1:08:28.040 you know, I don't know what happened with the Garda 1:08:29.240 --> 1:08:32.920 on Tuesday night early Wednesday morning. I don't know if 1:08:32.920 --> 1:08:35.599 they were able to board the plane, if they tried 1:08:35.640 --> 1:08:36.479 to stop it and couldn't. 1:08:36.520 --> 1:08:37.200 I have no idea. 1:08:37.479 --> 1:08:40.280 Yeah, now that they know this is happening, maybe they 1:08:40.280 --> 1:08:43.479 can look a little bit deeper into their laws and 1:08:43.520 --> 1:08:48.280 regulations and find a justification so that if this happens again, 1:08:48.840 --> 1:08:52.600 they can be prepared to respond. You know, I know 1:08:52.720 --> 1:08:57.240 that the Irish are exemplars in human rights, and so 1:08:58.160 --> 1:09:01.280 you know, if anybody is going to do something, it 1:09:01.360 --> 1:09:01.880 might be them. 1:09:02.360 --> 1:09:05.200 Yeah, yeah, I know. Artie and now camped out at 1:09:05.200 --> 1:09:07.280 the airport wing for the plane to come back, which. 1:09:07.320 --> 1:09:07.800 Yeah, I know. 1:09:07.840 --> 1:09:09.599 I wish they had checked with the av yeks first 1:09:09.600 --> 1:09:10.760 because the plane's not on the way. 1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:12.200 Yeah, no, it's not here. 1:09:12.280 --> 1:09:12.800 It hasn't left. 1:09:13.320 --> 1:09:16.080 Look at the court proceedings are going to be three weeks. 1:09:16.080 --> 1:09:19.320 But yeah, yeah, it's great. You've made this an issue there, 1:09:19.479 --> 1:09:22.479 which I think, yeah, it helps, Like all this stuff 1:09:22.760 --> 1:09:23.559 makes a difference. 1:09:23.840 --> 1:09:27.280 I mean, I just I want the Irish people to realize, 1:09:27.439 --> 1:09:31.880 because none of their lawmakers have said it yet, that 1:09:32.320 --> 1:09:37.280 Irish authorities knew when the plane was on the ground 1:09:37.600 --> 1:09:41.479 at Shannon that there were people who were possibly being 1:09:41.640 --> 1:09:45.320 illegally detained on this specific airplane. 1:09:45.680 --> 1:09:47.240 I just want them to know that. 1:09:47.880 --> 1:09:51.080 Yeah, yeah, you know, And I'm I hear that their 1:09:51.160 --> 1:09:55.439 public information laws are also not great, but the police 1:09:55.479 --> 1:09:59.559 there recorded the call, so there's a recording somewhere if 1:09:59.560 --> 1:09:59.920 they can. 1:09:59.840 --> 1:10:02.880 F right, I guess I can't find anyone who can 1:10:02.920 --> 1:10:05.640 answer the satisfactory the question of like, whose jurisdiction in 1:10:05.720 --> 1:10:06.479 the plane is under? 1:10:07.040 --> 1:10:10.800 Yeah, I mean, and it really depends too, like was 1:10:11.120 --> 1:10:14.640 the plane parked in the international transit area? Was it 1:10:14.680 --> 1:10:17.120 in a place where you know the guard I didn't 1:10:17.120 --> 1:10:18.000 even have authority. 1:10:18.080 --> 1:10:19.559 I have no idea, right you know? 1:10:20.479 --> 1:10:22.439 Yeah, these are real questions that we can now ask 1:10:22.640 --> 1:10:25.640 because we know right that it was there, and I 1:10:25.680 --> 1:10:29.519 think that's very valuable. Gillian, Where can people follow your work? Said? 1:10:29.600 --> 1:10:31.720 You published this on your ghost newsletter? 1:10:31.800 --> 1:10:32.080 First? 1:10:32.160 --> 1:10:36.840 Right, Yeah, I'm writing a book, so I post extremely sporadically, 1:10:37.040 --> 1:10:40.479 but I do have a ghost newsletter. It's hard, g 1:10:40.960 --> 1:10:45.519 History because it's hard. G Gillian har Ghistory dot ghost 1:10:45.600 --> 1:10:48.519 dot io. And then I'm on Blue Sky at g Brackhill. 1:10:49.040 --> 1:10:49.200 Nice. 1:10:49.240 --> 1:10:52.080 Do you I plug your book where you have the opportunity. 1:10:52.680 --> 1:10:55.599 I mean, there's there's not like a you know, pre 1:10:55.720 --> 1:10:56.439 order links. 1:10:56.680 --> 1:11:00.200 I'm very much still writing it, but you know, my 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:02.000 agent will be mad at me for saying this. The 1:11:02.040 --> 1:11:05.040 working title is people that didn't know what was wrong 1:11:05.160 --> 1:11:08.040 back then? The lie at the heart of American history. 1:11:08.520 --> 1:11:10.080 I will look forward to reading that. 1:11:10.640 --> 1:11:12.960 Thank you. Thanks for having me, James. I really appreciate it. 1:11:13.160 --> 1:11:37.479 Thanks for joining us. Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. 1:11:37.680 --> 1:11:40.360 It's me James today and I'm joined once again by 1:11:40.439 --> 1:11:43.160 Kirsten Zitlao. We've heard from her before. She's an immigration 1:11:43.280 --> 1:11:45.519 lawyer who takes asylum cases, and we're going to talk 1:11:45.560 --> 1:11:49.040 about the asylum system or I guess what's left of it. Today. 1:11:49.400 --> 1:11:53.640 Kirsten is representing somebody I met, the Darien gap Primrose, 1:11:53.680 --> 1:11:55.160 who you've heard from before. So we're going to talk 1:11:55.160 --> 1:11:56.560 about that case, and then we're going to talk a 1:11:56.600 --> 1:12:00.479 little bit about ice detentions inside immigration court. Welcome to 1:12:00.520 --> 1:12:00.840 the show. 1:12:01.400 --> 1:12:03.080 Thank you, James. It's good to be here. 1:12:03.479 --> 1:12:06.439 Yeah, thanks for thanks for coming. I know you're extremely busy. 1:12:07.000 --> 1:12:10.479 Can you explain to us, like the asylum system is 1:12:10.560 --> 1:12:14.439 essentially coming to an end? Right we are not getting 1:12:14.479 --> 1:12:17.599 new asylum cases, Like what is the situation for people 1:12:17.880 --> 1:12:20.479 in the asylum system right now? 1:12:21.200 --> 1:12:25.240 Yes, that's a correct statement, James. So there are no 1:12:25.400 --> 1:12:29.760 new asylum cases. In other words, people who cross at 1:12:29.800 --> 1:12:34.719 the southern border are now detained, only to be removed 1:12:34.960 --> 1:12:38.559 immediately basically or as soon as possible, under what's called 1:12:38.680 --> 1:12:40.320 two twelve F authority. 1:12:40.920 --> 1:12:43.280 It's under the Immigration and Nationality Act. 1:12:43.960 --> 1:12:48.519 Trump has used this authority, which basically broadly says that 1:12:48.840 --> 1:12:53.439 if the President finds a certain class of immigrants or 1:12:53.920 --> 1:12:56.280 the entry of immigrants would be detrimental to the interests 1:12:56.320 --> 1:12:59.600 of the United States, they may, by proclamation, you know, 1:13:00.000 --> 1:13:03.720 spend all entry have said immigrants. So that was the 1:13:03.720 --> 1:13:07.800 purpose and the effect of the executive order discussing the 1:13:07.840 --> 1:13:10.479 invasion at the border, and all the other executive orders 1:13:10.520 --> 1:13:16.439 discussing invasions and criminal aspects such as cartels and trender ragua, 1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:22.160 which we all know now is the justification for alleged 1:13:22.280 --> 1:13:26.439 justification for just shutting it down at the border. So 1:13:26.439 --> 1:13:30.960 whereas people used to get credible fear interviews or were 1:13:31.000 --> 1:13:33.639 paroled into the United States to be allowed to fight 1:13:33.680 --> 1:13:36.920 an asylum case, none of that is happening anymore. And 1:13:37.000 --> 1:13:40.759 people are, if anything, only screened for what's called Convention 1:13:40.840 --> 1:13:44.559 against Torture screenings to just determine, like, hey, are they 1:13:44.600 --> 1:13:47.240 going to be tortured by their government or with the 1:13:47.280 --> 1:13:50.920 acquiescence of their government if they're returned to their home country. 1:13:50.960 --> 1:13:53.040 But even then they are not allowed to remain in 1:13:53.040 --> 1:13:55.439 the United States or fight any relief in the United States. 1:13:55.520 --> 1:13:57.280 That just means that they will be deported to a 1:13:57.320 --> 1:14:00.400 third country. So that was the situation. And like when 1:14:00.439 --> 1:14:03.639 we saw the Iranians sitting in the hotel room and Panama, 1:14:03.800 --> 1:14:07.400 that's what happened there most likely. So that's the situation 1:14:07.479 --> 1:14:10.200 at the southern border. Whoever is still in the United States, 1:14:10.240 --> 1:14:12.080 you know, who came in before an operation day, is 1:14:12.080 --> 1:14:14.880 still allowed to fight their case as of now, but 1:14:15.240 --> 1:14:19.280 there are no new asylum cases essentially, right. 1:14:19.520 --> 1:14:23.280 So for those people fighting their case, the asylum system 1:14:23.360 --> 1:14:27.000 was already an uphill battle, right, and it became harder 1:14:27.320 --> 1:14:32.200 after Biden's asylum ban. It was already harder after title 1:14:32.240 --> 1:14:34.639 forty two. Like people who listened to the show would 1:14:34.640 --> 1:14:37.360 have known about the people who crushed in twenty twenty three, 1:14:37.760 --> 1:14:39.640 and of course they would have followed those people who 1:14:39.640 --> 1:14:42.519 I'm in the Darian Gap, some of whom very few 1:14:42.520 --> 1:14:48.240 of whom crushed before January. I literally one I believe 1:14:48.240 --> 1:14:50.799 that I'm aware of. Can you explain what the asylum 1:14:50.880 --> 1:14:52.559 system is like for those people now? 1:14:53.240 --> 1:14:53.439 Yeah? 1:14:53.479 --> 1:14:56.599 So I think the biggest two factors affecting asylum cases 1:14:56.640 --> 1:14:59.280 these days is what you just referred to, which is 1:14:59.320 --> 1:15:05.240 the asylum called the circumvention against Lawful Pathways that barred 1:15:05.240 --> 1:15:08.439 people essentially from asylum if they did not use CBP 1:15:08.600 --> 1:15:12.120 one the application to apply for an appointment, which of 1:15:12.160 --> 1:15:14.840 course only allowed I think fifteen hundred a day or 1:15:14.840 --> 1:15:19.000 something absurd, forcing most people to cross unlawfully. So that's 1:15:19.000 --> 1:15:23.120 still very much in place. The litigation has been stalled forever. 1:15:23.680 --> 1:15:25.720 There's no hope of you know, I don't think there's 1:15:25.720 --> 1:15:28.040 no movement on that. I haven't seen or heard anything, 1:15:28.640 --> 1:15:31.320 most likely intentionally because when Trump did a similar ban, 1:15:31.400 --> 1:15:33.680 it was overturned immediately. So this is like a new 1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:36.439 strategy that we're seeing where things are just lagging in court. 1:15:37.200 --> 1:15:40.240 You know, for example, just a quick side detour the 1:15:40.280 --> 1:15:43.160 birthright citizenship issue got up to the Supreme Court real quick, 1:15:43.200 --> 1:15:47.080 whereas the asylum issue, meaning the border shut down to asylum, 1:15:47.160 --> 1:15:49.720 is still languishing somewhere before I think even just a 1:15:49.720 --> 1:15:51.719 federal district, I just is not even in any appeal 1:15:51.960 --> 1:15:55.640 court yet. So this is all I think, it's strategic, 1:15:56.120 --> 1:15:59.200 So that circumvention against Lawful Pathways ban is still very 1:15:59.280 --> 1:16:02.680 much heediment. You know, we all of course argue that 1:16:02.760 --> 1:16:05.519 every migrant in Mexico was in danger and thus qualifies 1:16:05.560 --> 1:16:09.439 for the exception to the CLP that their life was 1:16:09.439 --> 1:16:11.280 in danger and they couldn't afford to wait the many 1:16:11.280 --> 1:16:13.640 many months for the CBP one appointment. 1:16:14.479 --> 1:16:18.559 But judges it's been met with mixed reviews. They generally like. 1:16:18.560 --> 1:16:22.080 To see like somebody basically near death for the exception 1:16:22.200 --> 1:16:26.360 to apply. And of course the immigration bar argues that 1:16:26.560 --> 1:16:29.800 all migrants are basically under threat of death. I mean, 1:16:29.920 --> 1:16:33.200 any any cartel or even immigration official contact in Mexico 1:16:33.280 --> 1:16:35.680 could have been a death sentence very easily, as we 1:16:35.720 --> 1:16:38.200 all know. Yeah, so that's a big thing affecting. The 1:16:38.280 --> 1:16:41.200 latest thing that's also being implemented as a result of 1:16:41.240 --> 1:16:48.120 this cartel terrorist organization designation is you know where it's 1:16:48.160 --> 1:16:51.040 not just the cartels, is MS thirteen and ten deo ragua, 1:16:52.240 --> 1:16:55.160 is that there's a what's called a trig bar that's 1:16:55.160 --> 1:16:58.839 applied then also to asylum and the bar is basically 1:16:58.880 --> 1:17:02.559 about materials port of any of these groups, but it's 1:17:02.640 --> 1:17:06.840 construed to an absurd degree where even if you made 1:17:06.840 --> 1:17:10.760 a bowl of food for Samaras under duress or you 1:17:10.840 --> 1:17:14.200 made payment because your kid was about to be killed, right, 1:17:14.479 --> 1:17:17.280 that's considered material support, and you're barred from asylum. 1:17:17.360 --> 1:17:18.760 Jeez, I wondered if they would do that. 1:17:18.920 --> 1:17:22.599 Yeah, so we're seeing that too. Other than that, I mean, 1:17:22.680 --> 1:17:25.320 I have been fortunate to win asylum for folks under 1:17:25.360 --> 1:17:26.439 Trump two point zero. 1:17:26.560 --> 1:17:27.759 I mean, I don't know how long. 1:17:27.640 --> 1:17:32.200 That'll still last, but judges are still you know, granting cases. 1:17:32.240 --> 1:17:33.680 So I'm glad to see that. 1:17:34.000 --> 1:17:34.520 Yeah. 1:17:34.560 --> 1:17:37.000 So that's generally what it's looked like these past four 1:17:37.000 --> 1:17:38.559 months for Assil's. 1:17:38.360 --> 1:17:40.559 Okay, And yeah, I think it's really important that we do. 1:17:40.840 --> 1:17:43.960 There are still possible, like victories to be had within 1:17:44.000 --> 1:17:46.960 the court system, and asylum is one of the places where, 1:17:47.000 --> 1:17:49.400 like there's no more getting me on the train. I 1:17:49.439 --> 1:17:51.439 guess like the people who are on the train now 1:17:51.760 --> 1:17:54.519 we can and people should if they have the financial means, 1:17:54.520 --> 1:17:56.280 and we'll talk about how they can do that later. 1:17:56.439 --> 1:17:59.719 People should support those people because there's no one else 1:17:59.760 --> 1:18:02.120 who who can go through that system, and like, there 1:18:02.160 --> 1:18:05.360 are people who have gone through horrific things to get 1:18:05.400 --> 1:18:07.639 here and horrific things in the places that they came from. 1:18:07.680 --> 1:18:10.240 And even if it's not everyone, we would like to 1:18:10.320 --> 1:18:11.880 keep safe. We should do everything we can to keep 1:18:11.880 --> 1:18:13.320 those people safe. 1:18:13.000 --> 1:18:15.160 One hundred percent, you know, just to say, I mean 1:18:15.240 --> 1:18:18.840 and funding somebody's legal fees, I mean an attorney makes 1:18:18.880 --> 1:18:22.840 all the difference in navigating these types of issues that 1:18:22.880 --> 1:18:25.519 I just talked about and other issues and presenting your case. 1:18:25.560 --> 1:18:28.439 I mean, asylum cases are still incredibly difficult to win, 1:18:28.479 --> 1:18:31.040 and so representation of council is often key. 1:18:31.880 --> 1:18:33.960 Yeah, I think that the rates of success people who 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:36.840 don't have counsel are dramatically lower. I haven't lived on 1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:39.320 Track recently, but you can normally find that on the 1:18:39.960 --> 1:18:42.040 I think Track is no longer in the University of Syracuse, 1:18:42.080 --> 1:18:45.320 but it did some place where you can find information statistics. 1:18:46.560 --> 1:18:49.920 Let's talk about one of those cases, if that's okay. 1:18:50.040 --> 1:18:53.559 And obviously you know we won't intervene in anyone's prihapsy 1:18:53.600 --> 1:18:55.800 any more than we have to. But like I want 1:18:55.840 --> 1:18:59.280 to talk about Primrose. Primrose is Zimbabwean woman who I 1:18:59.400 --> 1:19:02.920 met in Bo when I was in the Darien Gap 1:19:03.000 --> 1:19:06.040 reporting on my series. People heard from her in the series. 1:19:06.680 --> 1:19:08.680 Even me. I was crying myself. I was like, I 1:19:09.080 --> 1:19:11.920 want to just put myself in the water. Then I 1:19:12.000 --> 1:19:16.160 can just go what the genuine tough really really tough, 1:19:16.200 --> 1:19:20.800 the mountain, the stones, the river. It's not easy at all. 1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:24.920 It's it's not a very I don't even recommended someone 1:19:25.000 --> 1:19:28.439 to say you use that and give no. And even myself, 1:19:28.520 --> 1:19:32.000 I did know about it. Yeah, I was regretting myself. 1:19:32.040 --> 1:19:35.880 I was crying. I was like, God, I don't know 1:19:36.000 --> 1:19:38.280 my family and my family they don't know where I 1:19:38.320 --> 1:19:39.280 am right now. 1:19:39.360 --> 1:19:43.800 But I make it yeah, I make it safe. 1:19:43.720 --> 1:19:43.880 Yeah. 1:19:45.560 --> 1:19:49.760 She is now in the asylum process, right, can you 1:19:49.840 --> 1:19:52.600 explain a little bit about like where she is in 1:19:52.640 --> 1:19:55.280 the process. And I will eventually do a scripted series 1:19:55.320 --> 1:19:57.280 on this, but like I guess, can we get an 1:19:57.360 --> 1:20:00.600 update on her situation and how it's progressing. 1:20:00.720 --> 1:20:01.519 Absolutely, so. 1:20:01.880 --> 1:20:04.200 I came into the case about I want to say, 1:20:04.240 --> 1:20:08.120 a month or two ago, she had somebody supporting her, 1:20:08.200 --> 1:20:12.719 a friend living in Texas, and that situation, a living 1:20:12.760 --> 1:20:16.479 situation has changed, I believe, which is also not the 1:20:16.520 --> 1:20:17.840 worst things. 1:20:17.960 --> 1:20:19.000 But she will be moving. 1:20:18.800 --> 1:20:21.880 With a friend to southern California or moving in with 1:20:21.920 --> 1:20:25.639 a friend brother. But just this situation is very different 1:20:25.800 --> 1:20:30.120 in Texas and Louisiana and Mississippi and those types of states, 1:20:30.800 --> 1:20:33.720 markedly so, and her case is a good example of that. 1:20:34.280 --> 1:20:37.000 And there's a reason that people like mamou Khalil and 1:20:37.800 --> 1:20:40.840 many others are sent to detention centers in that area 1:20:40.880 --> 1:20:43.080 because it's in the Fifth Circuit, first of all, which 1:20:43.160 --> 1:20:47.519 is widely renowned to be not a favorable circuit court 1:20:47.520 --> 1:20:50.479 of appeals to immigrants. Yeah, but more so than that, 1:20:50.640 --> 1:20:53.840 even the judges themselves are very different from what we 1:20:53.880 --> 1:20:57.679 would encounter in California, for example. So my first encounter 1:20:57.800 --> 1:21:00.000 with the judge was, you know, this is all very 1:21:00.520 --> 1:21:03.800 I submitted a motion to appear for her. She had 1:21:03.800 --> 1:21:07.400 a master calendar hearing in June. I submitted a motion 1:21:07.479 --> 1:21:11.240 to appear for that telephonically, explaining I was representing her 1:21:11.520 --> 1:21:14.120 at lower no cost, you know, whatever funds could be raised, 1:21:14.160 --> 1:21:16.360 and could I please appear for a status it's a 1:21:16.360 --> 1:21:21.280 status type conference telephonically, And that motion was met with 1:21:21.320 --> 1:21:24.240 a really strange response. I don't to this day, I 1:21:24.240 --> 1:21:26.320 don't really know exactly. It was sort of approved, but 1:21:26.360 --> 1:21:29.599 then moot because eventually a final court hearing was set. 1:21:29.640 --> 1:21:30.960 So that's where we're at right now. 1:21:31.479 --> 1:21:34.240 She has a final court next year, in about a 1:21:34.320 --> 1:21:36.920 year and a couple months, but in ruling on my 1:21:36.960 --> 1:21:40.240 WebEx motion, I was emailed the order of the judge 1:21:40.280 --> 1:21:44.840 along with a notice that Permers should self deport. So 1:21:45.080 --> 1:21:49.120 judges are sending out these notices with routine other orders 1:21:49.760 --> 1:21:55.479 in cases where the immigrant has council is fighting their case. Yeah, 1:21:55.800 --> 1:22:00.280 it's obvious they're fighting their case Jesus And yeah. So 1:22:00.479 --> 1:22:02.240 it's one of the things where you just feel very 1:22:02.240 --> 1:22:05.000 strongly this administration's influence. 1:22:05.320 --> 1:22:07.320 Are they obliged to do that or is that a 1:22:07.439 --> 1:22:08.799 choice that the judge's making. 1:22:09.080 --> 1:22:11.360 Not at all, and in fact it's completely inappropriate. 1:22:11.439 --> 1:22:14.080 So all of us are okay. The immigration bar is 1:22:14.080 --> 1:22:17.000 taking a different approach to it. You know, some are 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:19.840 filing motions to recuse, telling the judges, hey, you need 1:22:19.840 --> 1:22:22.679 to recuse yourself. You're a non neutral judge. To send 1:22:22.680 --> 1:22:24.320 this out in the middle of the case is absurd. 1:22:24.400 --> 1:22:27.720 It's a due process violation. They're entitled to a neutral judge. Yeah. 1:22:28.280 --> 1:22:30.920 I think my approach would be more one of playing dumb, 1:22:30.960 --> 1:22:34.639 because often this has happened. The system, if you will, 1:22:34.680 --> 1:22:37.680 of ECASS, the electronics system that we use for court 1:22:37.720 --> 1:22:40.640 immigration filing systems that Elon Musk briefly had access to 1:22:40.800 --> 1:22:43.799 or whatever was going on there. But anyways, I digress, 1:22:44.080 --> 1:22:47.519 you know, will send out automatic notices with the emails 1:22:47.560 --> 1:22:50.080 with the judges orders. So my approach, I think will 1:22:50.120 --> 1:22:51.800 be to give the judges the benefit of the doubt 1:22:51.880 --> 1:22:54.280 and ask them if this was an electronic notice and 1:22:54.280 --> 1:22:56.400 if they say no, then I've gotten it on the record, 1:22:56.479 --> 1:22:58.360 and if they deny the case, I have that in 1:22:58.400 --> 1:23:01.479 there for the appeal. But yeah, it's happening all over 1:23:01.520 --> 1:23:04.599 the country with all sorts of different judges, and it's 1:23:04.640 --> 1:23:06.639 definitely something that we're grappling with right now. 1:23:06.680 --> 1:23:07.960 And it's just it's. 1:23:07.880 --> 1:23:11.360 Very ballsy for a judge to say, hey, leave the 1:23:11.400 --> 1:23:14.360 country and oh, by the way, I'm a neutral arbiter. 1:23:14.760 --> 1:23:16.759 Yeah, I mean, what's the point of having the judge 1:23:16.880 --> 1:23:19.519 or having the whole process right if then they're going 1:23:19.560 --> 1:23:21.439 to declare this clear bias. 1:23:21.600 --> 1:23:22.439 Yeah, it's absurd. 1:23:22.840 --> 1:23:24.640 I mean, it's you know, I mean, it's such a 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:27.000 violation of due process rights. And I think I know 1:23:27.479 --> 1:23:30.200 everybody in this country now knows the importance of due process, 1:23:30.240 --> 1:23:32.519 whereas before only attorneys through that term around. But no, 1:23:32.640 --> 1:23:36.120 I mean, this stuff really matters, you know. Yeah, And 1:23:36.200 --> 1:23:38.960 then also another thing that happened in Primosa's case is 1:23:39.000 --> 1:23:42.320 that when you have a work permit clock right, which 1:23:42.360 --> 1:23:44.920 is another absurd thing for assiles that once they file 1:23:45.000 --> 1:23:47.040 their asylum application, they have to wait one hundred and 1:23:47.040 --> 1:23:50.160 fifty days before they can apply for a work permit. 1:23:50.280 --> 1:23:53.120 And of course they're expected to be independently wealthy during 1:23:53.120 --> 1:23:55.560 those five months or you know, or star o or 1:23:55.560 --> 1:23:56.720 I don't know what they're expected to do. 1:23:57.080 --> 1:23:59.480 Yeah, rely on the jeder rusty brothers. 1:23:59.240 --> 1:23:59.919 Like exactly. 1:24:00.320 --> 1:24:03.479 So if you do something like try to change venue 1:24:03.720 --> 1:24:06.120 or a motion to continue, if you do something in 1:24:06.120 --> 1:24:08.800 your case that the judge perceives as not moving the 1:24:08.800 --> 1:24:11.519 case along and rather like kind of trying to stall 1:24:11.560 --> 1:24:14.280 it or possibly pausing it or slow it down, the 1:24:14.360 --> 1:24:17.720 judge will stop the work permit clock the days and 1:24:17.880 --> 1:24:21.240 it's a whole thing. So Primroses was stopped because the 1:24:21.320 --> 1:24:24.960 judge wanted her to get an attorney. So usually when 1:24:25.120 --> 1:24:28.120 the case is set for a final hearing, that code 1:24:28.160 --> 1:24:31.360 adjournment code they call it. I know from we have 1:24:31.439 --> 1:24:33.160 the access to the codes and what stops the clock 1:24:33.200 --> 1:24:36.599 and what doesn't, and it always restarts the clock because 1:24:36.640 --> 1:24:38.960 you move your case along because you're setting it for trial. 1:24:39.000 --> 1:24:41.680 It's you know, obviously moving your case along hers was 1:24:41.720 --> 1:24:46.479 not restarted for whatever reason, and my only remedy would 1:24:46.479 --> 1:24:48.800 be to write some court administrator who may or may 1:24:48.880 --> 1:24:51.719 not ever respond. I can't even go to the judge 1:24:51.720 --> 1:24:54.400 about this, you know, it's it's absurd. So that's just 1:24:54.479 --> 1:24:58.760 the situation that one assilie is one asylum seeker is 1:24:58.760 --> 1:25:01.880 dealing with in Texas. So you can only imagine what 1:25:02.000 --> 1:25:05.439 goes on in detentions that, you know, detained cases in 1:25:05.479 --> 1:25:06.440 those states. 1:25:06.840 --> 1:25:10.280 Yeah, people who don't have counsel, like getting that self deportation. 1:25:10.520 --> 1:25:12.479 If you don't have counsel, like you could assume that 1:25:12.479 --> 1:25:15.639 you are just obliged to leave, like, yeah, that your 1:25:15.760 --> 1:25:16.559 your process is. 1:25:16.520 --> 1:25:19.840 Over one hundred percent, And there's no legal basis for 1:25:19.880 --> 1:25:22.120 the judge to be issuing that. In fact, it's completely 1:25:22.960 --> 1:25:25.840 unlawful to be issuing something like that at the beginning 1:25:25.840 --> 1:25:27.920 of the case, at the end of the case, and 1:25:27.960 --> 1:25:30.360 at the beginning. The judge does have to give certain advisals, 1:25:30.360 --> 1:25:33.280 but telling somebody to self deport is never an advisal 1:25:33.320 --> 1:25:34.679 that should be given under the law. 1:25:34.760 --> 1:25:38.080 Ever, right, Yeah, like it kind of nullifies the whole system. 1:25:38.360 --> 1:25:41.120 And plus I should mention real quick that it's disingenuous 1:25:41.160 --> 1:25:44.960 and harmful and that with these you know, this administration 1:25:45.360 --> 1:25:48.559 on purpose isn't telling people with the thousand dollars, take 1:25:48.560 --> 1:25:51.080 a thousand dollars in self deport and you know, will 1:25:51.080 --> 1:25:52.920 pay for your flight and all this stuff. But they're 1:25:52.960 --> 1:25:55.760 not telling people is that when you leave, you're then 1:25:55.800 --> 1:25:58.240 subject to a deportation order and that comes with a 1:25:58.280 --> 1:26:02.000 ten year bar. This is not mentioned. And that's a 1:26:02.040 --> 1:26:02.679 big deal. 1:26:03.160 --> 1:26:05.920 Yes, yeah, I mean it seems even like I think 1:26:05.960 --> 1:26:09.519 the executive order said permanently leave the United States, right. 1:26:09.840 --> 1:26:13.160 Well, it did, and then but then they switch tactics 1:26:13.160 --> 1:26:15.960 a little bit with the app to self support, saying like, 1:26:16.120 --> 1:26:18.519 you know, leave now, leave now so you have a 1:26:18.600 --> 1:26:21.040 chance to come back later or something like that. Right, 1:26:21.280 --> 1:26:23.479 but you know without mentioning that, hey, you no, you're 1:26:23.479 --> 1:26:26.360 barred from the United States for ten years and if 1:26:26.360 --> 1:26:29.400 you ever return unlawfully, then you're a subject to a 1:26:29.400 --> 1:26:31.880 whole series of you know. I mean, it's just there's 1:26:31.880 --> 1:26:33.880 all these warnings that need to come with the deportation 1:26:34.040 --> 1:26:36.800 order that are strategically left out of all the administration's 1:26:36.880 --> 1:26:38.280 latest messaging on this topic. 1:26:39.160 --> 1:26:42.120 Yeah, that's it's pretty bad. Let's take a break for 1:26:42.160 --> 1:26:55.160 advertisements here and then we'll come back. All right, We 1:26:55.479 --> 1:26:59.800 are back, and we've spoken about these like self deportation 1:27:00.240 --> 1:27:04.080 orders right for other people who have entered more recently, right, 1:27:04.280 --> 1:27:07.280 entered within the last two years. This has been happening 1:27:07.320 --> 1:27:10.160 we're recording on the twenty second for the last two 1:27:10.280 --> 1:27:14.919 days now. It seems like ICE is dismissing the cases 1:27:14.960 --> 1:27:18.960 against them and then detaining them directly in court, if 1:27:19.000 --> 1:27:20.400 I'm correctly informed. 1:27:21.040 --> 1:27:25.360 Yes, So this has been happening periodically throughout the past 1:27:25.400 --> 1:27:28.519 four months, but in the past few days, like this week, 1:27:28.640 --> 1:27:31.320 it's been dramatically ramped up. Like right now as we're 1:27:31.360 --> 1:27:34.160 recording this, ICE is arresting people in the downtown San 1:27:34.200 --> 1:27:37.800 Diego court and also courts throughout the country. It's been 1:27:37.840 --> 1:27:41.960 reported everywhere, happening widely this week. And this is another 1:27:42.000 --> 1:27:44.040 thing the administration said they were going to do and 1:27:44.160 --> 1:27:45.800 is doing. I mean, you know, they're doing what they 1:27:45.840 --> 1:27:48.800 said they were going to do. Yeah, and it's to 1:27:48.920 --> 1:27:52.400 use what's called two thirty five authority. More broadly so, 1:27:52.479 --> 1:27:55.840 INA Section two thirty five applies to people who entered 1:27:55.880 --> 1:27:59.120 within less than two years, like you said, and they 1:27:59.240 --> 1:28:02.880 can be then said to what's called expedited removal. That 1:28:02.960 --> 1:28:05.839 means that they have to take a credible fear interview 1:28:05.880 --> 1:28:08.400 and be detained, and that they only get to fight 1:28:08.439 --> 1:28:10.600 a case if they pass their credible fear interview, and 1:28:10.640 --> 1:28:13.400 then they do not qualify for an immigration judge bond, 1:28:13.520 --> 1:28:15.320 So they only get out if ICE lets them out, 1:28:15.320 --> 1:28:18.560 which of course I is letting nobody out. So the 1:28:19.000 --> 1:28:22.080 administration wants to have people detained under this authority, this 1:28:22.080 --> 1:28:25.559 two thirty five authority as much as possible, to have 1:28:25.760 --> 1:28:29.599 them have to fight their case detained and either lose 1:28:29.640 --> 1:28:33.120 the will to do so and or not be able 1:28:33.160 --> 1:28:35.680 to afford an attorney, because detained cases move along a 1:28:35.680 --> 1:28:38.839 lot quicker and are very costly as well for that reason. 1:28:39.120 --> 1:28:43.200 So what they're doing is anybody who was here two 1:28:43.240 --> 1:28:45.640 years or less but was parolled in so they're in 1:28:45.640 --> 1:28:48.360 the regular immigration court proceedings they got out there under 1:28:48.400 --> 1:28:51.920 two forty proceedings, that's called so DHS attorneys in court 1:28:52.040 --> 1:28:55.280 are terminating those proceedings. They're asking the judge to terminate 1:28:55.320 --> 1:28:57.719 the two forty proceedings, so then that case is closed, 1:28:57.720 --> 1:29:00.200 and then they immediately restart a case under section two 1:29:00.280 --> 1:29:03.120 thirty five. And at the second they do that, the 1:29:03.120 --> 1:29:05.880 person is subject to mandatory detention. And Ice is right 1:29:05.920 --> 1:29:08.639 there in the courthouse to arrest them and detain them. 1:29:08.920 --> 1:29:13.240 Jesus, yeah, I thought Ice couldn't arrest people in California. 1:29:13.400 --> 1:29:16.439 Is that California state courts, no federal courts which are 1:29:16.479 --> 1:29:17.440 in California. 1:29:17.479 --> 1:29:20.160 I believe so, And colleagues and I have been talking 1:29:20.160 --> 1:29:22.800 about this. I haven't researched it thoroughly, but I think 1:29:22.920 --> 1:29:26.280 also the nature of these proceedings, like the two thirty 1:29:26.280 --> 1:29:29.840 five proceeding, like you are mandatory detention, like you okay, 1:29:29.880 --> 1:29:32.439 you were taken into custody. It's as if you just 1:29:32.520 --> 1:29:35.959 crossed the border and you know, are taken in a custody. 1:29:36.040 --> 1:29:38.200 It's treated like that type of situation, like no warrant 1:29:38.240 --> 1:29:38.759 is necessary. 1:29:38.800 --> 1:29:39.479 I don't believe you. 1:29:39.439 --> 1:29:42.040 Know, oh okay, right, yeah, so they could. They have 1:29:42.240 --> 1:29:46.160 very broad authority to detain people anywhere. That makes sense exactly. 1:29:46.520 --> 1:29:46.640 So. 1:29:46.960 --> 1:29:50.439 The real issue here is the ethical I mean a 1:29:50.479 --> 1:29:52.040 lot of us are grappling with this and of course 1:29:52.080 --> 1:29:56.479 fiercely opposing these motions in that the justification that the 1:29:56.520 --> 1:30:00.160 DHS attorneys are attempting to use is that circumstances have 1:30:00.240 --> 1:30:04.280 materially changed since the issuance of their initial case that 1:30:04.320 --> 1:30:07.400 they're in now, which of course is not the. 1:30:07.360 --> 1:30:10.720 Case, right, whose circumstances. 1:30:10.200 --> 1:30:13.720 Exactly exactly, Like the rise of fascism doesn't constitute a 1:30:13.800 --> 1:30:18.599 change circumstance. Yeah, So it's just there's no, there's no 1:30:18.720 --> 1:30:22.000 basis for this motion. And secondly, the only basis, like, 1:30:22.040 --> 1:30:26.639 there's zero justification for this other than filling detention centers, 1:30:26.800 --> 1:30:31.560 lining cour Civic and Geogroup's pockets. Yeah, and intentionally prejudicing 1:30:32.120 --> 1:30:34.519 an immigrant to have to fight their case attained. I 1:30:34.560 --> 1:30:39.800 mean right, there's no there's no good or legitimate justification 1:30:39.920 --> 1:30:41.559 for this period the end, you know. 1:30:42.200 --> 1:30:44.639 Yeah, and fighting it detained will be a lot harder. 1:30:44.680 --> 1:30:47.760 They will be obviously in like terrible situation they are, 1:30:47.920 --> 1:30:50.439 as we've covered before, often moved to a different state 1:30:50.520 --> 1:30:52.960 from their council. Will make it a lot harder for 1:30:53.000 --> 1:30:55.120 them if they choose to go that route. I'm guessing 1:30:55.200 --> 1:30:58.120 that ICE is hoping that people won't fight and will 1:30:58.240 --> 1:31:00.920 just DHS is hoping the people will choose not to fight. 1:31:01.760 --> 1:31:07.160 Percent that's the whole point is this full Administration's the 1:31:07.240 --> 1:31:11.519 messaging and their actions are all about forcing people, breaking 1:31:11.560 --> 1:31:15.120 people's spirits, and forcing them into a situation where they 1:31:15.120 --> 1:31:17.599 feel their only option is to self deport. 1:31:18.160 --> 1:31:18.599 Yeah. 1:31:18.840 --> 1:31:22.440 It is heartbreaking, it's very sick. Yeah, it's it's very disturbing. 1:31:22.760 --> 1:31:26.120 It's very very different from Trump one point zero. 1:31:26.479 --> 1:31:29.240 Yeah. I think that's worth sort of focusing in on 1:31:29.280 --> 1:31:33.439 that this is a completely distinct and much more radical 1:31:34.040 --> 1:31:37.080 disassembling of the asylum system as we know it. 1:31:37.479 --> 1:31:38.080 Absolutely. 1:31:38.120 --> 1:31:40.799 I mean, I think we can all agree or disagree 1:31:40.840 --> 1:31:43.160 as far as how we feel about the past four 1:31:43.200 --> 1:31:46.120 months and what has happened, but I think everybody can 1:31:46.160 --> 1:31:50.800 agree the pace at which it has happened is extremely concerning. 1:31:51.200 --> 1:31:55.040 Right, we have four months into four years, and we 1:31:55.200 --> 1:31:59.200 have seen like a constitutional crisis, like a full blown 1:31:59.280 --> 1:32:03.080 defiance of courts. We at the day we're recording, the 1:32:03.120 --> 1:32:06.400 Trump administration is attempting to deport people to South Sudan, 1:32:07.360 --> 1:32:09.519 many of whom eleven of twelve of whom are not 1:32:09.600 --> 1:32:10.560 South Sudanese. 1:32:10.720 --> 1:32:10.920 Right. 1:32:11.479 --> 1:32:14.320 I guess from what I understand, their attempt at giving 1:32:14.320 --> 1:32:18.280 those people a credible fear screening was that they didn't 1:32:18.320 --> 1:32:21.080 hear them shouting from the cells they were detained in 1:32:21.160 --> 1:32:23.360 that they were afraid of being tortured. 1:32:23.760 --> 1:32:27.960 Yeah, they're supposed to give them opportunity to be heard, 1:32:28.080 --> 1:32:31.800 essentially and give notice of this third country that they're 1:32:31.920 --> 1:32:34.320 going to be deported to. That nobody and no judge 1:32:34.360 --> 1:32:36.479 is ever considered whether they have a fear or if 1:32:36.520 --> 1:32:39.320 they would be in danger or deported to this country. Right, 1:32:39.360 --> 1:32:42.280 So again, this is a due process situation where hey, 1:32:42.320 --> 1:32:44.959 before you can be sent to some random country, especially 1:32:45.040 --> 1:32:48.120 South Sudan, maybe you should be given an opportunity to 1:32:48.160 --> 1:32:50.960 present why you have a fear or that something bad 1:32:51.040 --> 1:32:53.160 might happen to you over there to a judge. And 1:32:53.240 --> 1:32:56.000 so this was recently ordered. I believe the case is 1:32:56.040 --> 1:32:59.879 called DBD versus DHS. Was what stopped the Libya situation 1:33:00.080 --> 1:33:03.640 from happening, where yeah, judge said, this is exactly what 1:33:03.720 --> 1:33:05.280 needs to occur. These people need to be give you 1:33:05.280 --> 1:33:08.559 given real notice, not this whatever has been had, you know, 1:33:08.720 --> 1:33:11.679 and and an opportunity to be heard. And then yeah, 1:33:11.720 --> 1:33:15.320 and they immediately thereafter attempted to as you said, or 1:33:15.360 --> 1:33:17.200 I think I don't know if they actually accomplished it 1:33:17.200 --> 1:33:18.000 with South Sudan. 1:33:18.479 --> 1:33:21.479 Yeah, my understanding is they are in a country which 1:33:21.479 --> 1:33:23.920 is neither the United States nor South Sudan on an 1:33:23.920 --> 1:33:27.280 aircraft at this time, and DHS is arguing that they 1:33:27.280 --> 1:33:31.040 can do their credible fear screenings there on the aircraft. 1:33:31.600 --> 1:33:34.480 I don't know how they've planned together people privacy, translation, 1:33:34.680 --> 1:33:37.680 access to council. I just looked on court listener right 1:33:37.680 --> 1:33:42.360 before we recorded, and Judge Murphy clarified Massachusetts District Court 1:33:42.439 --> 1:33:45.479 judge that ten days would be the amount of time 1:33:45.520 --> 1:33:47.640 that they would need to assert a credible fear and 1:33:47.680 --> 1:33:49.880 then if DHS determined that they didn't have credible fear, 1:33:49.880 --> 1:33:52.640 they would then have fifteen days to ask for the 1:33:52.720 --> 1:33:56.639 reopening of their case. TBD. Is the United States going 1:33:56.680 --> 1:34:00.360 to like somehow accommodate them in where they are. People 1:34:00.360 --> 1:34:02.439 are speculating they're in jow Booty, which is the largest 1:34:02.520 --> 1:34:05.479 US military base in the continent of Africa and close 1:34:05.520 --> 1:34:09.840 to South Sudan, And so if that's the case, Yeah, 1:34:10.520 --> 1:34:13.160 I don't know how they will get due process. We 1:34:13.240 --> 1:34:15.280 will find out if they will get due process. 1:34:15.320 --> 1:34:18.439 I guess yeah, they probably won't, but will be told 1:34:18.439 --> 1:34:20.960 that they did, or will be or will be told 1:34:20.960 --> 1:34:22.880 that they were criminals in the first place, which is 1:34:22.920 --> 1:34:26.479 the other theme of this administration, right with the Alien 1:34:26.560 --> 1:34:30.120 Enemies Act, which has basically been put on pause by 1:34:30.320 --> 1:34:35.240 a number of Satan judges who have said, there's no invasion, 1:34:35.400 --> 1:34:36.080 there's no war. 1:34:36.400 --> 1:34:38.719 This is absurd, This just flat out doesn't apply. 1:34:39.640 --> 1:34:41.479 And I have to say that the immigration bar is 1:34:41.560 --> 1:34:43.760 very I think not just the immigration bar, I think 1:34:43.800 --> 1:34:45.800 all of us are very frustrated that the Supreme Court 1:34:45.880 --> 1:34:48.040 has not yet come out with a definitive substance of 1:34:48.160 --> 1:34:51.479 ruling on this because, for the people who don't know, 1:34:51.520 --> 1:34:55.800 the Alien Enemies Act allows the administration to circumvent the 1:34:55.880 --> 1:35:00.720 i NA, which is the whole immigration court system, and 1:35:00.800 --> 1:35:04.360 immediately to port supposed criminals who were invading the country. 1:35:04.400 --> 1:35:06.120 I mean, we all know this with the Venezuelans who 1:35:06.120 --> 1:35:08.960 are accused of being trended Aragua just for having tattoos, 1:35:09.720 --> 1:35:13.000 and so that is to me and I think all 1:35:13.040 --> 1:35:15.760 of us the biggest threat to just be able to 1:35:15.800 --> 1:35:17.800 put somebody on a plane to another country and in 1:35:17.800 --> 1:35:20.320 a prison in another country, as we've seen the Sea cot. 1:35:20.479 --> 1:35:21.440 In El Salvador. 1:35:21.760 --> 1:35:24.600 I mean, we need our Supreme Court to speak on this, 1:35:24.680 --> 1:35:25.679 then we need it quickly. 1:35:26.360 --> 1:35:30.360 Yeah, like if we no longer have habeas. It's a 1:35:30.400 --> 1:35:32.960 frontal assault on the Bill of rights, like most of them. 1:35:33.280 --> 1:35:36.000 And there's so many assaults on the Bill of rights. 1:35:36.120 --> 1:35:39.720 And then we need our Supreme Court to really to 1:35:39.800 --> 1:35:42.320 step up. And I think I'm not the only one 1:35:42.360 --> 1:35:46.160 who's extremely frustrated by that, because we're in crisis and 1:35:46.280 --> 1:35:48.920 as we've seen, it's fallen on courts and lawyers and 1:35:49.280 --> 1:35:53.720 judges to try to defend the semblance of democracy in 1:35:53.720 --> 1:35:54.240 this country. 1:35:54.280 --> 1:35:56.320 But the highest court in the land needs to help 1:35:56.320 --> 1:35:57.240 out soon. 1:35:57.800 --> 1:36:01.840 Yeah. Yeah, and like this is where like the Reba 1:36:01.920 --> 1:36:05.479 meets the road right for like maintaining people's basic rights, 1:36:05.560 --> 1:36:08.439 dignity and yeah, the right not to be sent to 1:36:08.720 --> 1:36:12.240 a labor camp in El Salvador or you know, seuth 1:36:12.280 --> 1:36:16.280 Sudana country, which is rapidly descending into conflict. Again, I 1:36:16.280 --> 1:36:18.799 thought the government was barrel bombing this week. 1:36:19.040 --> 1:36:21.120 Well, and just real quick, another note on the Supreme 1:36:21.160 --> 1:36:23.479 Court is that they're they're also concerning I mean, as 1:36:23.479 --> 1:36:25.640 we know, there's a lot of Trump appointees there and 1:36:26.680 --> 1:36:29.960 so I mean it's not even that that's the answer, 1:36:30.040 --> 1:36:32.720 it's just we're you know, but we need answers more 1:36:32.800 --> 1:36:35.920 quickly than what they're they're giving us. And it's just 1:36:36.920 --> 1:36:40.599 given the rate that this administration is working at, I 1:36:40.640 --> 1:36:42.880 don't know that they will if they ever get the 1:36:42.920 --> 1:36:45.760 case for the asylum ban at the border, would even 1:36:45.760 --> 1:36:49.320 overturn that because historically they've sort of supported his two 1:36:49.400 --> 1:36:52.280 twelve F powers. So I'm not saying that's the answer 1:36:52.320 --> 1:36:54.960 to everything, but it's definitely frustrating to not have basic 1:36:55.000 --> 1:36:58.120 things yeah already decided, like the use of the alien 1:36:58.200 --> 1:36:58.680 enemy that. 1:36:58.920 --> 1:37:01.840 Yeah, like just notes in where we're at, Like when 1:37:02.080 --> 1:37:03.960 you know people are trying in good faith to move 1:37:03.960 --> 1:37:07.040 forward with the legal processes that they have spent their 1:37:07.240 --> 1:37:10.360 entire life savings on to get here and do the 1:37:10.479 --> 1:37:24.920 right quote unquote the right way. You're still fighting a 1:37:25.040 --> 1:37:27.720 number of asylum cases, as we said before the call, 1:37:27.840 --> 1:37:31.439 like you probably won't be forever, right Like, at some 1:37:31.520 --> 1:37:34.439 point there's just not going to be any more asylum cases. 1:37:34.840 --> 1:37:37.960 I know that you're accepting donations. I think through venmo 1:37:38.200 --> 1:37:40.400 On behalf of Primrose, that will be sure to link 1:37:40.439 --> 1:37:42.519 to that mo account in the description of this show, 1:37:42.600 --> 1:37:45.519 so people can donate if they'd like to. Now it's 1:37:45.520 --> 1:37:47.080 the time to do it right, It's not like this 1:37:47.160 --> 1:37:48.840 is going to be an ongoing thing. Like if people 1:37:48.880 --> 1:37:52.719 don't help now, then there won't be migrants to support 1:37:52.840 --> 1:37:56.559 or assylies to support later. So like, how can people 1:37:56.840 --> 1:38:01.000 materially support maybe in other ways, right, if they're like 1:38:01.680 --> 1:38:04.240 on hard times and have the financial resources, what else 1:38:04.240 --> 1:38:06.680 can people do to I just to make this a 1:38:06.680 --> 1:38:10.240 little bit less cruel to some people who are among 1:38:10.280 --> 1:38:12.080 the most unfortunate people on the planet. 1:38:12.120 --> 1:38:16.680 Often, I think even mental and emotional support for the 1:38:16.720 --> 1:38:20.519 immigrants in your life, I think is something that is 1:38:20.640 --> 1:38:26.080 underestimated because speaking as a very privileged white woman attorney 1:38:26.320 --> 1:38:30.080 US citizen, this has taken a tremendous toll on me, 1:38:30.800 --> 1:38:33.599 and the mental toll that has taken on the actual 1:38:33.640 --> 1:38:38.240 undocumented community and a siles. This messaging is so harmful 1:38:38.280 --> 1:38:42.679 and so disgusting that I think I would just caution 1:38:42.800 --> 1:38:45.840 people to not underestimate the power of human kindness to 1:38:45.880 --> 1:38:51.040 those already in your life and just empowering them distributing 1:38:51.120 --> 1:38:54.760 Know your Rights cards and information that still matters. But 1:38:54.880 --> 1:38:57.839 also I think the people who are, as we've been discussing, 1:38:58.040 --> 1:39:00.880 going to be at the most disadvant managed in terms 1:39:00.920 --> 1:39:03.080 of being able to keep up morale are these people 1:39:03.080 --> 1:39:06.719 who are going to be mandatorily detained. So, in terms 1:39:06.800 --> 1:39:09.760 of what we were talking about, I believe before we 1:39:09.800 --> 1:39:13.800 started recording, reaching out to any organizations I know in 1:39:13.840 --> 1:39:17.840 San Diego there's detention resistance, or even reaching out to 1:39:17.880 --> 1:39:20.840 the detention center that's near you to be able to 1:39:21.720 --> 1:39:24.639 determine how you can send a letter, how you can 1:39:24.680 --> 1:39:27.000 put money on somebody's books so that they can have 1:39:27.040 --> 1:39:29.519 phone calls with their family or phone calls with you 1:39:29.640 --> 1:39:33.519 even I think these types of things are key in 1:39:33.640 --> 1:39:41.040 light of the administration's clear messaging that immigrants are very 1:39:41.160 --> 1:39:44.960 much unwanted and criminals. So I think that's where I 1:39:44.960 --> 1:39:48.880 would come at this from. If you cannot donate, again, 1:39:48.960 --> 1:39:51.439 like we were talking, if you have a few dollars 1:39:51.439 --> 1:39:53.679 to spare, I mean, if everybody has a few dollars 1:39:53.720 --> 1:39:55.680 to spare, there is a finite number like we were 1:39:55.720 --> 1:39:59.400 saying of asylum cases left, like for Roses. So if 1:39:59.400 --> 1:40:03.200 people can spare a few dollars here or there whenever 1:40:03.200 --> 1:40:05.679 they can, it does make the difference. 1:40:06.240 --> 1:40:09.000 Yeah, no, it does, and it shows that like even 1:40:09.040 --> 1:40:10.559 if the government doesn't want you to hear a lot 1:40:10.560 --> 1:40:13.000 of people want you to be protected. We want you 1:40:13.040 --> 1:40:16.479 to be safe. Like, yeah, the mental damage it does, 1:40:16.560 --> 1:40:19.120 I think it's hard to overstate. Like I was talking, 1:40:19.160 --> 1:40:22.519 I remember to a young woman Ino and like she 1:40:22.680 --> 1:40:24.839 was the only surviving member of her family. The government 1:40:24.840 --> 1:40:28.760 had killed everyone, and so she came to the US 1:40:28.920 --> 1:40:30.920 right to be safe, and like, now the government is 1:40:30.960 --> 1:40:33.759 coming after her in addition to the trauma she already 1:40:33.800 --> 1:40:37.160 has from watching her entire family die. Like, now the 1:40:37.160 --> 1:40:39.439 most powerful government in the world is coming after you. 1:40:39.760 --> 1:40:41.920 Like I can't imagine how that feels. 1:40:42.320 --> 1:40:43.400 That's a very good point. 1:40:43.479 --> 1:40:47.200 I mean, yeah, people are coming already traumatized, only to 1:40:47.240 --> 1:40:50.840 be further traumatized by this administration in the system. And yes, 1:40:51.000 --> 1:40:53.839 I mean emotional and mental and any kind of support 1:40:54.040 --> 1:40:57.000 is not to be underestimated in the slightest during these times. 1:40:57.320 --> 1:40:59.280 Yeah, like have people over for dinner if you can, 1:40:59.400 --> 1:41:01.600 or yet like the detention center and put money on 1:41:01.640 --> 1:41:08.040 someone's commissary, Like just showing people that they're welcome is important. 1:41:08.200 --> 1:41:11.640 Like I know a lot of the migrants. Like if 1:41:11.640 --> 1:41:13.000 I look at my phone right now, in the time 1:41:13.040 --> 1:41:15.560 we've been recording one of the migrants, I meant that 1:41:15.600 --> 1:41:18.000 Darien Gap will probably have texted me. They're in Mexico, right, 1:41:18.040 --> 1:41:20.160 and they just want the world to know about the situation. 1:41:20.360 --> 1:41:22.800 They know they can't come to the US anymore. But 1:41:22.880 --> 1:41:25.000 sometimes people will say, I guess the Americans don't want 1:41:25.080 --> 1:41:27.040 u s anymore, and like that breaks my heart because 1:41:27.080 --> 1:41:29.960 I think most people, if they knew these people's circumstances, right, 1:41:29.960 --> 1:41:31.840 Like hundreds of people have reached out to me since 1:41:31.880 --> 1:41:34.160 the Darien Gap stuff to ask how they can help, 1:41:34.200 --> 1:41:37.960 and like most people do want those people to be 1:41:38.000 --> 1:41:40.920 their neighbors, and it breaks my heart that they think 1:41:40.960 --> 1:41:42.920 that we don't want them, that we would rather leave 1:41:42.960 --> 1:41:47.840 them to die wherever they're at. Like it's genuinely really 1:41:47.880 --> 1:41:49.920 horrible for me to think of that. So yeah, I 1:41:49.920 --> 1:41:54.120 would really encourage anyone listening if you can, to do what. 1:41:54.000 --> 1:41:59.439 You can, absolutely and just remembering that again, these asylum 1:41:59.439 --> 1:42:02.200 cases are finite. So if you know any asylum seeker 1:42:02.280 --> 1:42:05.800 or can support any asylum seeker right now, they made 1:42:05.840 --> 1:42:07.599 it in Let's give them their best shot. 1:42:08.000 --> 1:42:10.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah, like we can still help those people, 1:42:10.600 --> 1:42:14.160 and while we can, we should absolutely. Yeah, Well, thank 1:42:14.160 --> 1:42:16.080 you so much for joining us. We do appreciate it. 1:42:16.120 --> 1:42:18.920 I know that your time is very valuable and you're 1:42:19.040 --> 1:42:21.800 really busy right now, so we really appreciate your time. 1:42:21.920 --> 1:42:25.080 You're always welcome back, and if there's anything else you'd 1:42:25.080 --> 1:42:26.680 like to say before we finish. 1:42:26.360 --> 1:42:27.920 Up, yeah, thank you, James. 1:42:27.920 --> 1:42:29.920 I think the only thing I just want to emphasize 1:42:29.960 --> 1:42:33.120 is that, you know, from the standpoint of immigration attorneys 1:42:33.160 --> 1:42:36.120 like I feel that we're obviously a subject of an 1:42:36.160 --> 1:42:38.679 executive order. And you know, big law firms are being 1:42:38.760 --> 1:42:42.400 extorted by the administration to represent causes that the administration 1:42:42.520 --> 1:42:45.200 believes in and not robono immigration work, and so forth 1:42:45.240 --> 1:42:45.680 and so on. 1:42:46.400 --> 1:42:47.880 So it's not like too many of us have. 1:42:47.880 --> 1:42:51.799 Been personally attacked, although you know judges have been arrested, 1:42:51.920 --> 1:42:54.800 even judges for just hiring an immigrant to do work 1:42:54.800 --> 1:42:55.519 around the house. 1:42:55.600 --> 1:42:56.840 So it is. 1:42:56.960 --> 1:42:59.400 It is a scary time to be practicing immigration law, 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:03.720 but unfortunate. I do see there being a time when 1:43:03.760 --> 1:43:05.439 it won't happen. I mean, I see the writing on 1:43:05.479 --> 1:43:07.560 the wall where I will not be able to continue 1:43:08.200 --> 1:43:11.920 mentally and or economically, because a side effect of all this, 1:43:12.000 --> 1:43:14.280 and a very intentional side effect, is to make it 1:43:14.360 --> 1:43:17.320 so that we can't do much for people anymore, and 1:43:17.479 --> 1:43:20.479 or they can't afford us, or there's not people here 1:43:20.520 --> 1:43:23.720 to do anything for because their spirit was broken, or 1:43:23.760 --> 1:43:26.240 their finances or all of the above and they had 1:43:26.280 --> 1:43:29.840 to leave. So it is a very intense time. But 1:43:30.280 --> 1:43:32.439 I came from different areas of law. I've only been 1:43:32.439 --> 1:43:36.040 in immigration seven years and it's the first time I've 1:43:36.080 --> 1:43:38.280 thought of, Okay, where am I going to go to 1:43:38.439 --> 1:43:43.280 next in these seven years, And it's a very real thing. So, 1:43:44.280 --> 1:43:45.920 like I said, it feels very different than Trump one 1:43:45.960 --> 1:43:46.479 point zero. 1:43:46.479 --> 1:43:50.400 So no, yeah, this is considerably most severe. 1:43:50.840 --> 1:43:53.000 So in other words, take care of yourself if you 1:43:53.040 --> 1:43:55.600 are an ally, because you know the attack is on 1:43:55.640 --> 1:43:59.559 immigrants and anybody who advocates, supports and so forth, and 1:43:59.600 --> 1:44:03.479 it's a very very targeted, direct attack and it's very 1:44:03.520 --> 1:44:06.519 easy to get run down, yeah, and consume by it. 1:44:06.600 --> 1:44:08.720 And so definitely do what you need to do to 1:44:08.760 --> 1:44:10.719 take care of yourself. And if that means stepping back, 1:44:10.800 --> 1:44:13.400 then you know, I mean, I want to keep my 1:44:13.400 --> 1:44:15.120 foot in the door as much as possible these next 1:44:15.120 --> 1:44:18.840 four years on something immigration and recite asylum related. But 1:44:18.880 --> 1:44:23.240 there's also economic and other realities that are happening. Yeah intentionally, so. 1:44:23.800 --> 1:44:26.040 Yeah, definitely, And I think it is important for people 1:44:26.080 --> 1:44:28.439 to do whatever they need to do to self preserve 1:44:28.520 --> 1:44:31.720 and take care of themselves as well. I think that's 1:44:31.720 --> 1:44:33.479 a good place to end. Thank you so much for 1:44:33.479 --> 1:44:36.479 your time, and again, like if you're listening, please check 1:44:36.479 --> 1:44:38.400 the description of the show and we will have a 1:44:38.439 --> 1:44:40.280 link to primorise Who's go fund me if you'd like 1:44:40.320 --> 1:44:40.679 to help. 1:44:41.120 --> 1:45:08.519 Thank you so much, James, thank you. This is it 1:45:08.560 --> 1:45:12.920 could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's 1:45:12.920 --> 1:45:14.840 happening in the White House, the crumbling world of what 1:45:14.840 --> 1:45:17.240 it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined 1:45:17.240 --> 1:45:19.719 by James Stout and Robert Evans. 1:45:20.080 --> 1:45:23.360 Hello, what's up? Everybody? Who's got ed. 1:45:24.920 --> 1:45:25.680 Us? 1:45:25.720 --> 1:45:31.559 You everybody, we're giving you ed this episode, we're covering 1:45:31.600 --> 1:45:34.960 the week of May twenty one to May twenty eight. 1:45:35.720 --> 1:45:38.479 It was a really busy news week for the latter 1:45:38.520 --> 1:45:40.240 half of that week, so we're going to be mostly 1:45:40.280 --> 1:45:41.360 catching up with that. 1:45:41.760 --> 1:45:42.120 Jesus. 1:45:42.240 --> 1:45:47.880 Yeah, and let's start with the biggest news from late 1:45:48.000 --> 1:45:52.160 last week, domestically the shooting of two Israeli embassy staffers 1:45:52.200 --> 1:45:56.479 in Washington, DC. The shooting took place around nine pm 1:45:56.560 --> 1:46:00.160 on Wednesday, May twenty first, outside of an event at 1:46:00.280 --> 1:46:04.759 the Capitol Jewish Museum. Prior to the shooting, the suspect 1:46:04.840 --> 1:46:09.440 was seen pacing outside of the building. According to witnesses 1:46:09.520 --> 1:46:12.400 and surveillance video, a thirty one year old man named 1:46:12.400 --> 1:46:16.400 Elias Rodriguez approached a group of four people leaving the event. 1:46:16.560 --> 1:46:19.200 As he walked past them, he turned to face their 1:46:19.240 --> 1:46:22.120 backs and shot two people and continued to fire as 1:46:22.160 --> 1:46:24.439 they felt the ground. One of the victims, a twenty 1:46:24.439 --> 1:46:27.479 six year old woman, tried to crawl away after being shot. 1:46:27.720 --> 1:46:32.720 Rodriguez followed her and fired again Jesus while he was reloading, 1:46:32.800 --> 1:46:36.200 She sat up, and then Rodriguez shot her several more 1:46:36.280 --> 1:46:40.439 times before throwing his gun into a bush. He ran 1:46:40.439 --> 1:46:43.040 into the museum after the shooting. Security let him in 1:46:43.120 --> 1:46:46.559 thinking that he was a victim. Witnesses say he appeared 1:46:46.560 --> 1:46:50.240 traumatized and in shock. People from the museum event brought 1:46:50.360 --> 1:46:52.360 him water, and when they asked him if he was 1:46:52.520 --> 1:46:56.160 okay or if he was injured, Rodriguez requested the police. 1:46:56.800 --> 1:47:00.640 When cops arrived, he allegedly admitted to the shooting, and, 1:47:00.760 --> 1:47:04.160 according to witnesses, quote grabbed a red cafea out of 1:47:04.160 --> 1:47:08.400 his pocket. And started free Palestine chance quote there is 1:47:08.479 --> 1:47:12.960 only one solution, Antifada revolution unquote. While being arrested and 1:47:12.960 --> 1:47:16.000 taken out of the building, he chanted free Free Palestine. 1:47:16.840 --> 1:47:20.400 Israel's ambassador to the US claimed that the two victims 1:47:20.400 --> 1:47:26.080 were deliberately targeted as Israeli embassy employees, and that Rariguez 1:47:26.200 --> 1:47:29.759 mingled with attendees at the reception earlier that evening before 1:47:29.840 --> 1:47:33.240 raising suspicion and being asked to leave. Although the organization 1:47:33.320 --> 1:47:37.200 who put on this event, the American Jewish Committee, disputes 1:47:37.240 --> 1:47:40.960 this account. They say that Rodriguez tried to register for 1:47:41.040 --> 1:47:44.479 their event but was denied entry following a background check. 1:47:45.320 --> 1:47:49.000 Rodriguez is a lifelong Chicago resident. He got an English 1:47:49.040 --> 1:47:52.400 degree at the University of Chicago, legally bought a gun 1:47:52.439 --> 1:47:55.800 in Illinois and flew with it to d S the 1:47:55.960 --> 1:48:00.320 night before the shooting. This event was an American Jewish 1:48:00.320 --> 1:48:05.760 Committee Access DC Young Diplomat's Reception. The description for the 1:48:05.760 --> 1:48:08.400 event reads quote, this special event brings together Jewish young 1:48:08.400 --> 1:48:10.880 professionals age twenty two to forty five and the DC 1:48:11.040 --> 1:48:14.040 diplomatic community for an evening dedicated to fostering unity and 1:48:14.040 --> 1:48:17.799 celebrating Jewish heritage. Join us for heavy appetizers, cocktails, conversations 1:48:17.840 --> 1:48:20.360 and a special guest speaker. We are excited to introduce 1:48:20.439 --> 1:48:24.040 this year's theme, turning Pain into Purpose. Here from members 1:48:24.040 --> 1:48:27.439 of the Multi Faith Alliance and Israel as they delve 1:48:27.479 --> 1:48:30.720 into humanitarian diplomacy and have a coalition of organizations from 1:48:30.720 --> 1:48:32.960 the region and for the Region are working together in 1:48:33.000 --> 1:48:36.360 response to humanitarian crises through the Middle East and North 1:48:36.400 --> 1:48:42.200 Africa regions. The two victims were a young couple, Sarah 1:48:42.280 --> 1:48:46.920 Milgram and Ran Lisinski, twenty six and thirty, who met 1:48:46.960 --> 1:48:50.759 through their work at the embassy. Lozinski identified as a Christian, 1:48:51.000 --> 1:48:53.439 though he was born in Israel and moved to Germany 1:48:53.439 --> 1:48:56.240 as a kid, then returned to Israel and served in 1:48:56.240 --> 1:49:00.400 the IDF. There is an alternative claim that he was 1:49:00.439 --> 1:49:03.720 born in Nuremberg and then moved to Israel as a teenager, 1:49:04.160 --> 1:49:07.519 but most reporting says that he was born in Israel. 1:49:08.320 --> 1:49:11.519 In the aftermath of the shooting, politicians widely condemned this 1:49:11.920 --> 1:49:15.400 as anti Semitic violence. The acting US Attorney said that 1:49:15.400 --> 1:49:17.680 they are investigating the cases a hate crime and an 1:49:17.720 --> 1:49:22.320 act of terrorism. Dan Bongino, Deputy FBI Director, said the 1:49:22.360 --> 1:49:26.519 shooting was a quote act of targeted violence. The Israeli 1:49:26.520 --> 1:49:29.799 foreign minister and net Yahoo have laid blame at college 1:49:29.840 --> 1:49:33.840 protesters and foreign government officials, including the leaders of France, 1:49:33.880 --> 1:49:37.160 Britain in Canada, accusing them of blood libel for talking 1:49:37.200 --> 1:49:41.240 about Israel's quote supposed genocide and crimes against humanity unquote, 1:49:41.640 --> 1:49:45.560 and calling such rhetoric critical of Israel quote unquote incitement. 1:49:46.520 --> 1:49:50.400 Natanyahu said, quote free Palestine is just today's version of 1:49:50.520 --> 1:49:54.479 Hyle Hitler Jesus Christ. They don't want a Palestinian state. 1:49:54.760 --> 1:49:57.080 They want to destroy the Jewish state. They want to 1:49:57.080 --> 1:49:59.479 annihilate all Jewish people who have been in the land 1:49:59.479 --> 1:50:01.759 of Israel for three thousand, five hundred years. 1:50:03.240 --> 1:50:06.280 This is, obviously, I think, in a lot of ways 1:50:06.720 --> 1:50:10.720 the kind of thing net yahoo has been waiting for, 1:50:10.920 --> 1:50:13.280 and probably the kind of thing that a number of 1:50:13.280 --> 1:50:15.960 folks in that Trump is put in federal law enforcement 1:50:16.000 --> 1:50:17.760 have been waiting for because it provides them with some 1:50:17.800 --> 1:50:23.720 opportunities to continue their push to criminalize student organizing and 1:50:24.000 --> 1:50:26.120 organizing against. 1:50:25.840 --> 1:50:26.920 Israeli war crimes. 1:50:27.000 --> 1:50:27.439 Right like. 1:50:27.560 --> 1:50:29.920 The argument they want to be able to make is 1:50:29.960 --> 1:50:33.439 that just saying free Palestine is an active terrorism and 1:50:33.680 --> 1:50:36.839 there was an act of terrorism here, right, Like shooting 1:50:37.040 --> 1:50:40.640 two embassy employees for the crimes of their government, Like, 1:50:40.720 --> 1:50:42.559 that is a clear act of terrorism. 1:50:42.640 --> 1:50:42.800 Right. 1:50:42.840 --> 1:50:45.680 You can feel however you want to about it, but 1:50:45.760 --> 1:50:48.519 like that's the definition of what was done. But the 1:50:48.600 --> 1:50:51.320 things he was chanting were not part of the active terrorism. 1:50:51.360 --> 1:50:53.400 The fact that he shot people to death was the 1:50:53.439 --> 1:50:54.440 active terrorism. 1:50:54.640 --> 1:50:57.440 Yeah, it's the murdering people that's the terrorism. 1:50:57.600 --> 1:51:00.439 Yeah, and that is already illegal, by the way, and 1:51:01.000 --> 1:51:03.519 quite heavily, I'll be interested. We don't seem to know 1:51:03.600 --> 1:51:06.000 much about where he got the firearm. 1:51:05.560 --> 1:51:06.839 Yet that I've come across. 1:51:06.920 --> 1:51:08.839 So he legally purchased it in Illinois. 1:51:09.000 --> 1:51:13.760 Yeah, he bought it in Illinois, which has like fairly strict. 1:51:13.360 --> 1:51:15.639 Gun laws, Yes, some of the strictest in the US. 1:51:16.040 --> 1:51:19.439 So it's one of those things where there's already quite 1:51:19.439 --> 1:51:22.360 a bit of regulation around everything that he did here. 1:51:22.400 --> 1:51:25.960 But fundamentally, if you're able to buy guns, which you 1:51:26.040 --> 1:51:29.280 are because this, you know, if there's an amendment, there 1:51:29.320 --> 1:51:32.280 will be people who carry out attacks like this. And 1:51:32.439 --> 1:51:35.400 I don't really know there certainly didn't seem to be 1:51:35.920 --> 1:51:39.800 outside of this guy's personal chats with his friends. A 1:51:39.840 --> 1:51:42.439 lot of evidence that would have set him on anybody's radar. 1:51:42.560 --> 1:51:45.040 He had been at like a PSL Party for Socialism 1:51:45.040 --> 1:51:48.160 and Liberation march in twenty seventeen or something, but like, 1:51:48.200 --> 1:51:51.320 this wasn't a guy who had a history of violence 1:51:51.439 --> 1:51:54.880 or anything like that. And quite frankly, that's just a 1:51:54.960 --> 1:51:57.360 reality of the country that we live in, is that 1:51:57.479 --> 1:52:00.680 when people like this decide to carry out shootings for 1:52:00.720 --> 1:52:04.880 whatever reason, the odds of catching them are extraordinarily low. 1:52:05.240 --> 1:52:08.599 It's very hard to flag for a guy specifically like 1:52:08.600 --> 1:52:10.639 like this because there's a lot of them out there. 1:52:10.760 --> 1:52:13.760 Yeah, yeah, and most of them don't do shootings. 1:52:13.880 --> 1:52:17.880 Yeah, this active been widely condemned. Like pro Palestine commentators 1:52:17.920 --> 1:52:21.920 have said that this style of like adventurist terrorism does 1:52:21.960 --> 1:52:24.160 nothing to help the Palestine people and in fact only 1:52:24.200 --> 1:52:27.639 hurts them and plays into what like the Israel lobby 1:52:28.280 --> 1:52:31.240 and Natya who have been like wanting to happen for 1:52:31.280 --> 1:52:31.679 a while. 1:52:32.240 --> 1:52:32.599 Yeah. 1:52:32.920 --> 1:52:38.080 I think kat Aboukazela, a Parastalian American woman he's running 1:52:38.080 --> 1:52:40.200 for office in Illinois. 1:52:39.680 --> 1:52:41.839 Worked it for Media Matters for years. 1:52:42.080 --> 1:52:42.320 Yeah. 1:52:42.320 --> 1:52:44.280 It does a lot of videos. Yeah. 1:52:44.439 --> 1:52:46.920 Yeah. Anyway, I saw that she'd she had something about 1:52:46.920 --> 1:52:51.320 how like yeah, this was something that evidently should be condemned. Right, 1:52:51.320 --> 1:52:53.960 that is wrong, and it's not advancing the cause of 1:52:54.040 --> 1:52:57.080 Palestinian freedom, Like I think adventurist terrorism is a good 1:52:57.080 --> 1:53:00.519 way to describe it. Geah, just getting panned by people 1:53:00.560 --> 1:53:05.000 on the internet, which like I don't know people engaging 1:53:05.760 --> 1:53:08.080 with this like from a place it doesn't come from, 1:53:08.120 --> 1:53:11.400 Like it's bad when random folks get shot killed. 1:53:11.760 --> 1:53:16.519 No, people have have used the horrific genocide as a 1:53:16.560 --> 1:53:20.120 way to like channel their general societal frustration and find 1:53:20.120 --> 1:53:23.680 a way to like just act incredibly hostile like to 1:53:23.840 --> 1:53:27.880 actual Palestinians. Yeah, yeah, yeah, who don't share the exact 1:53:27.960 --> 1:53:31.920 same like anti imperialist TM views that they might have. Right, 1:53:32.360 --> 1:53:35.080 it's just permission to abuse people online. 1:53:34.800 --> 1:53:39.599 Yeah, deeply, like verbally violent and like no like psycho shit. 1:53:40.320 --> 1:53:43.120 And this guy engaged in that kind of stuff as 1:53:43.160 --> 1:53:44.639 well as well as we'll see. 1:53:44.760 --> 1:53:45.479 Let's talk about that. 1:53:45.760 --> 1:53:49.080 Let's get a little bit into his background. So he 1:53:49.120 --> 1:53:52.200 has a manifesto that he posted on his Twitter account. 1:53:52.080 --> 1:53:54.479 And it's it's kojent like in terms of it's not 1:53:54.800 --> 1:53:57.759 the ramblings of like a madman or something. There's nothing 1:53:57.920 --> 1:53:58.200 like it. 1:53:58.320 --> 1:54:00.960 All He has an English degree, right, you know, to write. Yeah, 1:54:01.000 --> 1:54:03.439 he has worked as a writer for like almost a decade. 1:54:03.560 --> 1:54:06.000 Okay, yeah, yeah, I mean that in terms of, like 1:54:06.000 --> 1:54:07.880 it's very clear what he's trying to say. There's not 1:54:07.960 --> 1:54:10.760 any evidence here of like a disconnect or whatever. He's 1:54:10.840 --> 1:54:14.360 not doing this because he's blaming Israel for making the 1:54:14.439 --> 1:54:16.800 weather bad or whatever, right, right, yeah. 1:54:16.920 --> 1:54:17.680 Yeah. 1:54:17.840 --> 1:54:20.920 The manifesto is title to Escalate for Gaza, Bring the 1:54:20.920 --> 1:54:24.200 War Home, and he attempts to explain the rationale behind 1:54:24.320 --> 1:54:28.839 his actions. He starts by discussing the unknown total scale 1:54:28.920 --> 1:54:32.000 of dead Palestinians, writing that quote atrocity is committed by 1:54:32.000 --> 1:54:37.160 Israelis against Palestine. Defy description and defy quantification. He writes 1:54:37.160 --> 1:54:40.240 about how, despite protests and shifts in public opinion, the 1:54:40.320 --> 1:54:44.120 US government has continually refused to reign in Israel and 1:54:44.200 --> 1:54:48.720 instead moves to criminalize dissent. He talks about armed action. Quote. 1:54:48.840 --> 1:54:52.040 An armed action is not necessarily a military action. It 1:54:52.160 --> 1:54:56.160 usually is not. Usually it is theater and spectacle, a 1:54:56.280 --> 1:54:59.080 quality it shares in many unarmed actions. 1:55:00.520 --> 1:55:02.800 Yeah, and I do find you know, one of the 1:55:02.800 --> 1:55:06.320 first things that happened when this attack was carried out 1:55:06.360 --> 1:55:09.400 was people started theorizing that this had been some Nazi 1:55:10.040 --> 1:55:13.360 who was using this to using the propouse and cost 1:55:13.480 --> 1:55:16.680 like camouflage as Nazism, and I don't think that the 1:55:16.720 --> 1:55:19.920 preponderance of evidence suggests that there are two weird things. 1:55:20.160 --> 1:55:23.200 One of them is that this guy's previous Twitter name 1:55:24.000 --> 1:55:26.440 was Habbo eighty eight, and he was not born in 1:55:26.520 --> 1:55:29.280 eighty eight, obviously whenever you see an eighty eight in. 1:55:29.280 --> 1:55:32.000 The Native Curse Millennial. And the other is. 1:55:31.960 --> 1:55:35.520 That the bring the war home reference in his manifesto, 1:55:35.640 --> 1:55:38.600 which is basically a reference to something that I believe 1:55:38.720 --> 1:55:42.280 was Louis Beam, who is a neo Nazi organizer, said 1:55:42.360 --> 1:55:45.840 about trying to get Vietnam veterans to essentially bring the 1:55:45.880 --> 1:55:49.680 war home to the United States in order to spark 1:55:49.680 --> 1:55:53.080 a race war. And those two little things are weird. However, 1:55:53.600 --> 1:55:56.920 the rest of this guy's fairly well documented history and 1:55:57.000 --> 1:56:01.760 background does not suggest anything like that, So I don't 1:56:01.800 --> 1:56:05.440 think that that's the credible thing to blame this on. 1:56:05.880 --> 1:56:09.440 Quite frankly, Yeah, I'll go over some of that background 1:56:09.600 --> 1:56:10.240 in brief. 1:56:10.400 --> 1:56:11.280 Yeah. 1:56:11.600 --> 1:56:15.160 He also talked about targeting government representatives, quote the impunity 1:56:15.200 --> 1:56:17.600 that representatives of our government feel at a Bedding that 1:56:17.640 --> 1:56:21.440 this slaughter should be revealed as an illusion. He then 1:56:21.480 --> 1:56:23.160 tells the story of a man who tried to throw 1:56:23.200 --> 1:56:27.600 Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara off a boat into the sea. 1:56:28.440 --> 1:56:31.480 He finishes with his thoughts on the quote unquote morality 1:56:31.560 --> 1:56:35.480 of armed demonstration, where he discusses this tendency to dehumanize 1:56:35.480 --> 1:56:37.800 the perpetrators of atrocities as a method for us to 1:56:37.840 --> 1:56:41.080 cope with the monstrous evil that ordinary humans are capable of. 1:56:41.880 --> 1:56:42.400 Quote. 1:56:42.840 --> 1:56:46.280 This action would have been morally justified taken eleven years 1:56:46.320 --> 1:56:49.680 ago during Protective Edge, around the time I personally became 1:56:49.720 --> 1:56:53.120 acutely aware of our brutal conduct in Palestine. But I 1:56:53.160 --> 1:56:56.280 think to most Americans such an action would have been illegible. 1:56:56.680 --> 1:57:00.560 It would seem insane. I'm glad that today, at least 1:57:00.720 --> 1:57:03.400 there are many Americans for which the action will be 1:57:03.560 --> 1:57:07.360 highly legible and, in some funny way, the only sane 1:57:07.400 --> 1:57:10.840 thing to do unquote. It did find it interesting that 1:57:10.960 --> 1:57:14.440 on December fifth, twenty twenty four, Rodriguez posted on his 1:57:14.520 --> 1:57:18.600 Twitter account that quote eighty percent of the country applauds 1:57:18.640 --> 1:57:22.200 the targeted annihilation of a healthcare insurance executive. 1:57:22.680 --> 1:57:22.960 Quote. 1:57:23.920 --> 1:57:28.760 As for his political background, Rodriguez identifies as a Maoist 1:57:29.240 --> 1:57:33.800 third worldiest yeah, and believes that the global seuth alone 1:57:34.240 --> 1:57:39.480 has quote unquote revolutionary potential. A friend of Rodriguez described 1:57:39.480 --> 1:57:42.640 his politics to journalist KNK Clippenstein like this quote. He 1:57:42.720 --> 1:57:50.080 was a big proponent of the emerging resistance axis of Russia, Iran, Hesbula, Assad, Syria. 1:57:50.240 --> 1:57:50.840 How'd that go? 1:57:51.040 --> 1:57:54.480 He seemed pretty vocally in favor of Hamas for years, 1:57:54.600 --> 1:57:58.120 way before twenty twenty three. He'd always hated Israel and 1:57:58.160 --> 1:58:00.680 would call it, quote the little Satan. 1:58:02.120 --> 1:58:06.560 For fox sake, they Asad test are in supreme as Yeah, 1:58:06.720 --> 1:58:10.200 it's a fucking ab test for someone having shitty politics. 1:58:10.520 --> 1:58:14.360 Yeah, with the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed by aside. 1:58:14.080 --> 1:58:17.120 Yeah yeah, Asad who gaffed his own people who murdered 1:58:17.120 --> 1:58:18.120 little children. 1:58:17.920 --> 1:58:22.880 Including thousands and thousands of Palestinians by the way, Yeah yeah, Like, 1:58:23.440 --> 1:58:28.120 but again, you shouldn't expect coherence or particularly well informed 1:58:28.120 --> 1:58:29.360 opinions out of folks. 1:58:29.840 --> 1:58:30.080 Yeah. 1:58:30.080 --> 1:58:30.160 This. 1:58:30.720 --> 1:58:33.440 His online presence mirrors what I would call like the 1:58:33.440 --> 1:58:38.040 typical like anti imperialist TM poster where he's there is 1:58:38.080 --> 1:58:41.560 most of his frustration at the Democrats sometimes at Republicans, 1:58:42.080 --> 1:58:47.680 but mostly yeah, posts about being pro Russia, Iran, Hesbala, 1:58:47.960 --> 1:58:51.360 pro Asade, and particularly the past few years posting a 1:58:51.360 --> 1:58:55.040 lot of a Palestine right with explicit defense and like 1:58:55.160 --> 1:58:59.360 veneration of Hamas. The same friend that talked to Klippenstein 1:58:59.480 --> 1:59:01.920 also said, quote, it's driving me crazy that people are 1:59:01.960 --> 1:59:05.200 calling it a false flag. This development is shocking, but 1:59:05.240 --> 1:59:08.400 not completely out of character. Yeah, he always had strong 1:59:08.480 --> 1:59:12.040 political convictions. From the sound of the manifesto, he's the 1:59:12.080 --> 1:59:13.200 same as he was. 1:59:13.800 --> 1:59:17.720 Quote. Yeah, and I mean that seems true. 1:59:17.760 --> 1:59:21.200 Again, we still don't have a like a perfect knowledge 1:59:21.240 --> 1:59:23.920 of all of this guy's you know, online life. No, 1:59:24.160 --> 1:59:26.640 this is just a week away, but based on what 1:59:26.960 --> 1:59:31.760 Kin's posted, based on this interview, that makes complete sense. Yeah, right, 1:59:32.240 --> 1:59:34.720 I like I don't have any trouble believing that for 1:59:34.760 --> 1:59:35.640 a number of reasons. 1:59:35.680 --> 1:59:38.080 No, absolutely, this is this is not a false flag attack. 1:59:38.160 --> 1:59:40.000 That's that's conspiratorial nonsense. 1:59:40.160 --> 1:59:42.680 Yeah, I think that's this guy did a thing that 1:59:42.720 --> 1:59:46.360 he's sincerely believed in, and it seems like everything he'd 1:59:46.400 --> 1:59:48.840 been expressing in the year or two leading up to 1:59:48.920 --> 1:59:51.560 doing this, you know, was consistent with what he did. 1:59:51.960 --> 1:59:55.560 Now, Rodriguez was affiliated with the Chicago PSL Party for 1:59:55.600 --> 1:59:58.840 socialistm in Liberation back in twenty seventeen, and spoke to 1:59:58.880 --> 2:00:02.280 the media on their behalf, though he would later regret 2:00:02.400 --> 2:00:07.000 his association with the group, telling friends quote, PSL sucks shit. 2:00:07.240 --> 2:00:10.360 I wish I had just done a misadventure with the 2:00:10.400 --> 2:00:14.320 Freedom Road Socialist organization rather than the PSL. 2:00:14.320 --> 2:00:16.480 Lol YEA. 2:00:16.920 --> 2:00:20.320 Rodriguez remained somewhat politically active in Chicago. In twenty twenty three, 2:00:20.360 --> 2:00:23.000 he posted video from a local pro Palestine march on 2:00:23.040 --> 2:00:27.280 his Twitter account. Clippenstein spoke with at least five friends 2:00:27.280 --> 2:00:30.120 of his, who all claimed that they never heard Rodriguez 2:00:30.120 --> 2:00:33.760 express anti Semitic sentiments. Now, one of Arigue's friends gave 2:00:33.800 --> 2:00:38.200 Clippenstein access to a years old private WhatsApp group chat 2:00:38.320 --> 2:00:41.720 that Rodriguez frequently posted in, including up to a day 2:00:41.760 --> 2:00:45.040 before the shooting. Clippenstein says, quote, the messages don't reveal 2:00:45.080 --> 2:00:48.320 any hatred of Jews per se, but they do portray 2:00:48.360 --> 2:00:52.160 an often bitter man who hated all sorts of other things, 2:00:52.480 --> 2:00:55.840 especially Israel and its Warren Gaza unquote, and from what 2:00:55.920 --> 2:00:58.840 we conceived of the chats that kind has posted, this 2:00:59.080 --> 2:01:02.760 matches pretty well, well, A chat member wrote, quote, I'm 2:01:02.760 --> 2:01:06.560 almost surprised you're not anti Semitic elias. It usually goes 2:01:06.600 --> 2:01:09.840 hand in hand with the whole Stalin did nothing wrong mantra. 2:01:11.040 --> 2:01:13.920 Yeah, and his response to this was like, Stalin ended, 2:01:14.040 --> 2:01:17.160 you know, among other things, Stalin ended the greatest anti 2:01:17.160 --> 2:01:19.520 Semitic state in history, which I've seen his evidence that 2:01:19.560 --> 2:01:23.640 he wasn't pro Stalin. He just supported Stalin, you know, 2:01:23.800 --> 2:01:27.520 defeating the Nazis. But he says like among other things, 2:01:27.640 --> 2:01:30.680 So he clearly got a number of reasons he likes Stalin. 2:01:30.880 --> 2:01:33.680 Yeah, from the exchanges with his friends, this guy's clearly 2:01:33.720 --> 2:01:35.920 like a like a tanky anti imperialist type. 2:01:36.000 --> 2:01:38.720 Yes, yes, yeah, a million such examples. 2:01:38.960 --> 2:01:42.280 The only time he talked about race explicitly was the 2:01:42.840 --> 2:01:46.800 lambast white people quote. Lol, you probably would have to 2:01:46.840 --> 2:01:49.720 actually genesied white people to make this a normal country. 2:01:50.200 --> 2:01:53.880 Like even a very targeted and selective rehabilitation program would 2:01:53.920 --> 2:01:57.800 probably have to lead to the lifetime imprisonments of tens 2:01:57.840 --> 2:01:59.200 of millions of white people. 2:01:59.360 --> 2:02:02.240 On quest, Uh, there's a Stalin did nothing really. Yeah, 2:02:02.240 --> 2:02:04.800 there's that rained type that we were looking for. 2:02:05.400 --> 2:02:07.840 Well, and again, it's one of those things we're talking 2:02:07.840 --> 2:02:10.720 about this because there's a bunch of guys who expressed 2:02:10.720 --> 2:02:14.000 similar views. This is the only one who's done as shooting. 2:02:14.000 --> 2:02:16.440 When we talk about this making sense, we're not talking 2:02:16.480 --> 2:02:20.240 about this like as evidence that like, oh, someone who's 2:02:20.360 --> 2:02:24.160 a fucking tanky type is like is likely to commit 2:02:24.200 --> 2:02:26.120 a mass shooting, right, they go hand in hand. 2:02:26.160 --> 2:02:27.880 No, this is the first time of take he's done anything. 2:02:27.920 --> 2:02:29.400 This is the first one of these I've heard of 2:02:29.760 --> 2:02:31.280 in quite quite a long time. 2:02:32.000 --> 2:02:33.280 Yeah, it's just this guy. 2:02:33.320 --> 2:02:35.240 There's a bunch of people who expressed similar things to 2:02:35.280 --> 2:02:36.240 this guy, right, yeah. 2:02:36.320 --> 2:02:36.520 Yeah. 2:02:36.600 --> 2:02:39.880 On October seventh, he celebrated the Hamas attack. Quote just 2:02:39.880 --> 2:02:42.280 saw an incredibly gory video of the aftermath of Israeli 2:02:42.320 --> 2:02:45.360 troops trying to get dressed for the ambush, absolutely massacred 2:02:45.360 --> 2:02:50.360 by Hamas fighters. I am ao love checking back in 2:02:50.360 --> 2:02:52.640 with the news every few hours, like, hmm, I wonder 2:02:52.640 --> 2:02:55.480 if Israel still exists. You don't often get to credibly 2:02:55.520 --> 2:02:57.760 wonder if Israel is over yet today or not. 2:02:58.240 --> 2:03:01.920 Unquote yeah, and again, like that just kind of shows 2:03:02.040 --> 2:03:04.360 the general lack of knowledge. 2:03:03.960 --> 2:03:05.400 A level of political delusion. 2:03:05.760 --> 2:03:09.520 Yeah, yeah, like a lot of kind of telegram propaganda 2:03:09.560 --> 2:03:11.640 consumption type worldview here. 2:03:11.720 --> 2:03:14.200 Yes, and can convince you that what's happening is different 2:03:14.240 --> 2:03:15.080 from the reality. 2:03:15.840 --> 2:03:16.120 Yeah. 2:03:16.800 --> 2:03:18.960 In this chat, he lmented to friends and expressed sorrow 2:03:19.000 --> 2:03:21.160 at the deaths of Hamas and has been of leaders 2:03:21.920 --> 2:03:25.720 and sometimes his ire was directed at other members of 2:03:25.760 --> 2:03:29.000 this leaked chat, at one point going on an unhinged 2:03:29.120 --> 2:03:32.360 ablest rant attacking one of his friends for being privileged 2:03:32.520 --> 2:03:36.080 after they discussed the challenges of having a brother with cazophrenia. Quote, 2:03:36.360 --> 2:03:39.200 why not just have him committed. You can't possibly be 2:03:39.280 --> 2:03:41.440 gaining anything from a relationship with a person like that. 2:03:41.960 --> 2:03:44.040 Just put him in a padded room and forget about him. 2:03:44.280 --> 2:03:45.120 Jesus Christ. 2:03:45.400 --> 2:03:47.480 If there was a person you loved, he's gone. 2:03:47.560 --> 2:03:48.400 Now let it go. 2:03:48.920 --> 2:03:50.880 Can you just chain him in the basement and slide 2:03:50.920 --> 2:03:53.120 meals under the door. I'm just tired of hearing about 2:03:53.120 --> 2:03:55.840 this guy. He's useless, we get it. Stop complaining and 2:03:55.880 --> 2:03:56.680 just dispose of him. 2:03:57.120 --> 2:03:58.800 Yeah, Jesus Christ. 2:03:59.280 --> 2:04:02.640 I mean this goes with the people who I don't know, 2:04:02.680 --> 2:04:05.600 aren't useful to me, are of no value? Right that 2:04:05.640 --> 2:04:08.760 people don't have inherent value and you know they don't 2:04:08.960 --> 2:04:11.960 agree with or are useful to him, then fuck them. 2:04:11.960 --> 2:04:14.680 They can die. Like, I guess there's some kind of 2:04:14.720 --> 2:04:15.560 coherence there. 2:04:16.080 --> 2:04:19.320 Well, Robert, you want to mention the Something. 2:04:19.040 --> 2:04:21.440 Awful, Yes, I do, Garrison. 2:04:21.640 --> 2:04:24.800 So the other thing that came out in Ken's article 2:04:25.080 --> 2:04:29.040 is that this dude was a poster. Well, his friends 2:04:29.080 --> 2:04:32.120 described him as a dedicated poster, which is the worst 2:04:32.160 --> 2:04:35.840 thing you can be described as being, and noted that 2:04:35.880 --> 2:04:37.640 he had been There had been some when it came 2:04:37.640 --> 2:04:40.040 out that like his former Twitter user name had been 2:04:40.120 --> 2:04:43.240 like Habbo eighty eight. That was very clearly a reference 2:04:43.280 --> 2:04:47.080 to a game called Habo Hotel that if you're gen Z, 2:04:47.840 --> 2:04:52.160 there's very good odds you don't remember. But it was 2:04:52.760 --> 2:04:54.560 a big thing for people who were on four Chan 2:04:54.680 --> 2:04:56.840 and who were on Something Awful. And Something Awful was 2:04:56.880 --> 2:04:59.080 the website that gave birth to four Chan. It's where 2:04:59.120 --> 2:05:02.240 I was raised on the internet, and many many years ago, 2:05:02.560 --> 2:05:05.440 around the turn of the millennium, I think I don't 2:05:05.440 --> 2:05:08.480 remember the exact year, but we started gathering on this 2:05:08.600 --> 2:05:11.640 game for children. It was like an MMO for little kids, 2:05:11.680 --> 2:05:14.200 and like pretending to be members of a cult in 2:05:14.280 --> 2:05:18.320 order to like confuse small children. And then four Chan 2:05:18.680 --> 2:05:20.600 did their own version of that that was a bit 2:05:20.640 --> 2:05:22.480 more racist, which is often the case. 2:05:22.800 --> 2:05:24.640 Yeah, many such cases, Yeah, yeah. 2:05:24.520 --> 2:05:27.600 Yeah, many such cases. Anyway, when this came out, there 2:05:27.640 --> 2:05:29.560 was a debate. Was this guy a channer or was 2:05:29.600 --> 2:05:32.120 this guy a goon? You know, a member of the 2:05:32.160 --> 2:05:34.920 something Awful forums? And a lot of people thought I 2:05:35.040 --> 2:05:37.400 called goon. A lot of people thought shanner because of 2:05:37.400 --> 2:05:39.680 his age, he was a little bit young to have 2:05:39.800 --> 2:05:42.200 been a part of the something awful have a hotel things. 2:05:42.240 --> 2:05:44.280 I think it's actually likely or he did both, but 2:05:44.920 --> 2:05:48.080 his friends described him as somebody who was really into 2:05:48.080 --> 2:05:51.680 something awful, right, as somebody who had been influenced by 2:05:51.680 --> 2:05:54.520 that in particularly a subset of the something awful forms 2:05:54.720 --> 2:05:58.080 called FIAD, which stands for fuck you and Die, which 2:05:58.280 --> 2:06:01.480 kind of pioneered a lot of them, those toxic aspects 2:06:01.560 --> 2:06:02.960 of online discourse. 2:06:03.240 --> 2:06:04.360 Apparently, Jesus. 2:06:04.800 --> 2:06:08.000 Now, folks have found at least one of his accounts 2:06:08.000 --> 2:06:09.960 that doesn't have a lot of posts, although that doesn't 2:06:09.960 --> 2:06:12.680 mean much because number one, he could have deleted a 2:06:12.720 --> 2:06:15.600 lot of stuff, which many people did when they got older. 2:06:16.280 --> 2:06:18.720 Number Two, he could have had another account, which is 2:06:18.760 --> 2:06:22.720 also the case. The one account that people know was 2:06:22.800 --> 2:06:26.320 his was banned for shooting and killing two him to 2:06:26.440 --> 2:06:32.640 see employees. There's reasons given in the ever lengthening something 2:06:32.640 --> 2:06:36.640 Awful ban list when somebody gets banned. Obviously, again, I 2:06:36.640 --> 2:06:40.640 don't think there's like a positive thing to him being Like, 2:06:40.960 --> 2:06:43.280 him being on something awful didn't cause him to shoot 2:06:43.320 --> 2:06:45.680 two people, but him being on something awful was a 2:06:45.760 --> 2:06:48.760 natural part of the progression that led to him being 2:06:48.840 --> 2:06:53.000 the kind of like toxic online asshole that he was. 2:06:53.200 --> 2:06:55.120 And sort of evidence of that is that one of 2:06:55.160 --> 2:06:59.080 the last things he had done online before the shooting 2:06:59.760 --> 2:07:03.160 was he had gotten briefly onto Blue Sky and then 2:07:03.520 --> 2:07:07.160 gotten in trouble for repeatedly harassing Will Stanzel, who's another 2:07:07.280 --> 2:07:10.400 annoying asshole on the Internet, who was also a something 2:07:10.440 --> 2:07:13.680 awful goon who was raised in this same chunk of 2:07:13.720 --> 2:07:16.440 the internet, and who became a similar kind of asshole, 2:07:16.560 --> 2:07:20.040 just with wildly different politics. And these two hated each other, 2:07:20.360 --> 2:07:23.880 and Elias like threatened to murder him over the internet 2:07:24.320 --> 2:07:27.160 because he's like, again that these guys, he's that type 2:07:27.160 --> 2:07:29.200 of guy. He's that type of guy, which doesn't mean again, 2:07:29.240 --> 2:07:31.320 which doesn't mean this is why he did a shooting 2:07:31.400 --> 2:07:33.160 or had anything to do with that, because there's a 2:07:33.320 --> 2:07:36.160 lot of this type of guy and almost none of 2:07:36.200 --> 2:07:39.920 them commit acts of terrorism. It just like his background 2:07:39.960 --> 2:07:42.200 makes complete sense for the kind of guy that we 2:07:42.280 --> 2:07:43.640 can see that he was online. 2:07:43.880 --> 2:07:46.080 The last thing I'll say about this is that you know, 2:07:46.240 --> 2:07:49.040 beyond this like senseless loss of life, which is like 2:07:49.800 --> 2:07:53.720 an issue in and of itself. Obviously, this also contributes 2:07:53.720 --> 2:07:56.520 to further loss of life in the way this plays 2:07:56.520 --> 2:07:59.280 into like media capture. Right now, we have a whole 2:07:59.320 --> 2:08:02.760 week where the new cycles dominated by two people getting 2:08:02.800 --> 2:08:06.400 murdered in the streets of DC, and this does not 2:08:06.600 --> 2:08:10.000 help the Palestinian people currently being killed by Israel. The 2:08:10.040 --> 2:08:12.240 exact same day that this happened, Wednesday, the twenty first, 2:08:12.400 --> 2:08:15.440 ninety three people were killed in Israeli attacks across the 2:08:15.440 --> 2:08:17.560 Gaza Strip and that type of stuff does not really 2:08:17.600 --> 2:08:21.320 get reported anymore because that's how media capture works. Americans 2:08:21.320 --> 2:08:24.000 are really good at getting desensitized to this in a 2:08:24.040 --> 2:08:27.680 large scale media environment, but stuff like this only serves 2:08:27.560 --> 2:08:31.000 as a distraction and fuels Israel's oone motivation for their 2:08:31.120 --> 2:08:32.080 continued actions. 2:08:33.080 --> 2:08:36.640 Talking of media capture, Garrison, we have been captured by 2:08:36.640 --> 2:08:39.560 the advertisers in this show it's true. 2:08:39.720 --> 2:08:56.320 There you go, and we are back. Another big news 2:08:56.400 --> 2:08:59.520 item from last week was the passing of the Big 2:08:59.760 --> 2:09:03.520 View full budget bill in the House. We'll talk more 2:09:03.560 --> 2:09:06.640 about this bill as it turns through the Senate, but first, 2:09:06.800 --> 2:09:09.800 our co host Mia Wong has a special report on 2:09:09.840 --> 2:09:12.240 how the bill targets trans healthcare. 2:09:13.280 --> 2:09:15.800 So we're going to talk a little bit about the 2:09:15.840 --> 2:09:19.440 budget bill that's currently working through a bunch of processes 2:09:19.440 --> 2:09:22.080 in the Senate, that's been passed by the House. I 2:09:22.080 --> 2:09:25.080 am Mia Wong, and with me to talk about how 2:09:25.160 --> 2:09:29.560 this budget specifically is unbelievably bad for trans people is 2:09:29.600 --> 2:09:32.480 Maddie Castikin from Mad Cast and Mirror Levine from The 2:09:32.480 --> 2:09:34.920 Free Radical. Glad to have both of you to hear. 2:09:35.040 --> 2:09:37.360 You've both been doing a bunch of journalism about this 2:09:37.360 --> 2:09:40.480 stuff specifically and what people can do about it. First, 2:09:40.520 --> 2:09:43.200 can you can you explain what is going on in 2:09:43.240 --> 2:09:47.360 this budget with the ban on trans healthcare using Medicaid? 2:09:47.760 --> 2:09:48.000 Yeah? 2:09:48.040 --> 2:09:52.320 Absolutely so. The budget bill, also known as House Resolution One, 2:09:53.000 --> 2:09:57.520 is this year's reconciliation bill, which is Congress basically deciding 2:09:57.520 --> 2:09:59.520 next year's budget and how they're going to allocate all 2:09:59.520 --> 2:10:03.360 their fun this time around. Republicans socided it would be 2:10:03.360 --> 2:10:07.840 a great idea to push through. So what it was 2:10:07.880 --> 2:10:12.760 at first was a intense limitation on what Medicaid cover, 2:10:12.920 --> 2:10:16.240 essentially just humongous Medicaid cuts. And this is what I 2:10:16.360 --> 2:10:19.280 began investigating first. Me and Mattie were talking about it 2:10:19.320 --> 2:10:21.400 a bunch. She's the one who took me off to it. 2:10:21.480 --> 2:10:24.680 They started off by implementing huge cuts to Medicaid that 2:10:24.720 --> 2:10:27.640 would result in millions of people losing access to their healthcare, 2:10:27.800 --> 2:10:30.520 not even just trans people. Shortly after they announced these cuts, 2:10:30.560 --> 2:10:34.720 for instance, adapt a group of disabled activists. They are 2:10:35.200 --> 2:10:39.120 famous for being the ones who climbed up the steps 2:10:39.240 --> 2:10:42.080 of the I believe it was the Capitol Building in 2:10:42.120 --> 2:10:46.360 the nineties to raise awareness and help get the American 2:10:46.400 --> 2:10:51.560 Disabilities Act passed. They staged a protest on the United 2:10:51.560 --> 2:10:56.520 States Capital during a hearing for this bill where Republicans 2:10:56.520 --> 2:10:59.520 were just talking about it and praising themselves. Multiple activists 2:10:59.560 --> 2:11:03.320 got arrested. They're all fine now. Apparently apparently they weren't 2:11:03.320 --> 2:11:06.440 treated too bad either, which is good to hear. But 2:11:06.520 --> 2:11:10.240 what ultimately happened is more and more came out and 2:11:10.320 --> 2:11:14.120 it came revealed that not only would disabled people be affected, 2:11:14.520 --> 2:11:18.640 but basically every marginalized group for people of course being 2:11:18.760 --> 2:11:21.560 what we were focusing on given the beat, but this 2:11:21.600 --> 2:11:25.400 will impact essentially everyone, especially if you're a low income, 2:11:25.520 --> 2:11:29.680 especially if you are a person of color, you are 2:11:29.880 --> 2:11:33.200 more likely to be impacted just by virtue of this 2:11:33.320 --> 2:11:39.760 bill and how sweeping it is. And Republicans implemented a 2:11:40.000 --> 2:11:45.280 ban for gender ferming care for minors on it. It 2:11:45.320 --> 2:11:48.240 was a very milktoas ban that at the time was 2:11:48.240 --> 2:11:50.480 projected to pretty much get overturned in court right away 2:11:50.760 --> 2:11:53.520 if we were to pass. They didn't stop there though. 2:11:53.760 --> 2:11:55.960 They quickly evolved it and they tried to implement it 2:11:56.000 --> 2:12:00.600 into a sweeping ban on gender firming care for all ages, Medicaid, 2:12:00.920 --> 2:12:05.800 and for any health insurance received through Affordable Care Act marketplaces. 2:12:06.240 --> 2:12:10.560 And ultimately this led to a lot of panic and 2:12:10.560 --> 2:12:12.200 a lot of people assuming that their care is going 2:12:12.240 --> 2:12:15.680 to be taken away immediately. That wasn't what's going to 2:12:15.720 --> 2:12:18.240 happen on The minimum effective date that's currently in the 2:12:18.280 --> 2:12:21.720 bill is twenty twenty seven. I'm telling people to prepare 2:12:21.800 --> 2:12:25.080 if it passes for twenty twenty six, because there's a 2:12:25.120 --> 2:12:27.840 decent change. Republicans will trying to expedite it because it 2:12:27.880 --> 2:12:30.280 passed through the House, it passed through committees in the House, 2:12:31.000 --> 2:12:34.120 it was sent to the Senate, and I think that's 2:12:34.160 --> 2:12:36.000 what we'll give to Mattie to talk about kind of 2:12:36.040 --> 2:12:38.000 what next steps for that are. 2:12:38.640 --> 2:12:41.400 Yeah, so lake Man was saying, there's a lot of 2:12:41.480 --> 2:12:44.280 really huge This bill is tremendous. They could talk for 2:12:44.360 --> 2:12:47.720 hours about it. But focusing on the transparts, there's a 2:12:47.760 --> 2:12:51.960 ban on medicaid funding and there's also a ban on 2:12:52.080 --> 2:12:55.839 including trans cares and essential Health benefit and ACA plans. 2:12:56.400 --> 2:12:59.640 And the thing about both of these provisions is that 2:13:00.040 --> 2:13:03.880 normally with reconciliation bills, they're supposed to be focused on 2:13:04.040 --> 2:13:09.480 budget items, not policy items. So for example, you couldn't say, hey, 2:13:09.520 --> 2:13:12.080 weed is legal everywhere now or something like that, or 2:13:12.400 --> 2:13:14.360 raise the minimum wage, which Democrats tried to do in 2:13:14.360 --> 2:13:17.400 twenty twenty one and they failed because there are rules 2:13:17.520 --> 2:13:21.120 regarding how this process works. And so what we argued 2:13:21.160 --> 2:13:24.480 in an article was that there's a possibility that, you know, 2:13:24.480 --> 2:13:28.320 if activists and advocates reach out to their senators and 2:13:28.800 --> 2:13:31.640 advocated to point out that this part of the bill 2:13:31.720 --> 2:13:35.680 is completely against those provisions, against those procedural rules for 2:13:35.840 --> 2:13:39.240 the Senate Parliamentaria could rule against it and basically strike 2:13:39.320 --> 2:13:42.120 that portion of the bill without ever even becoming law. 2:13:42.640 --> 2:13:44.760 And you know that would stay people a lot of 2:13:44.760 --> 2:13:47.320 stress and anxiety. And you don't have to worry about 2:13:47.320 --> 2:13:49.840 the court battles and what happens with Scremetti versus us, 2:13:49.840 --> 2:13:51.480 which is a Supreme Court case that's going to be 2:13:51.600 --> 2:13:54.480 ruled on on gender a firming care soon. So what 2:13:54.560 --> 2:13:56.800 we've been telling people, and you know, including listeners for 2:13:56.880 --> 2:13:59.240 your show, is that people really need to reach out 2:13:59.280 --> 2:14:02.800 to their senators every single day, email, call and ask 2:14:02.880 --> 2:14:05.200 them to vote no on this bill on HR one 2:14:05.440 --> 2:14:10.120 and specifically mentioned the trans healthcare aspects, and if you want, 2:14:10.160 --> 2:14:13.120 there's templates online on our website, or you can just 2:14:13.200 --> 2:14:15.640 you know, ask them, Hey, we don't think this bill 2:14:15.720 --> 2:14:16.000 is good. 2:14:16.040 --> 2:14:16.360 We don't. 2:14:16.440 --> 2:14:18.560 We want you to challenge specifically the parts that are 2:14:18.600 --> 2:14:21.520 attacking trans people. And I can confirm with you. I 2:14:21.560 --> 2:14:24.040 can't share too much information, but I can confirm with 2:14:24.080 --> 2:14:27.520 you that we are making real, legitimate progress on killing 2:14:27.520 --> 2:14:30.880 this provision. And the more people we have calling in 2:14:30.920 --> 2:14:33.320 every single day, the better our odds are. But there's 2:14:33.360 --> 2:14:35.480 still more ways to fight back, and I want Mara 2:14:35.640 --> 2:14:38.080 to pick up on how people can fight back on 2:14:38.120 --> 2:14:38.520 the ground. 2:14:38.880 --> 2:14:42.080 Yeah, So in addition to reaching out to your senators, 2:14:42.280 --> 2:14:45.000 of course, to that, there's an email template, Mattie wrote 2:14:45.000 --> 2:14:47.440 of a great one. It tells you everything you need to do. 2:14:47.480 --> 2:14:49.240 You can even leave a phone call to the script. 2:14:50.200 --> 2:14:53.160 It takes like five minutes. But more long term is 2:14:53.960 --> 2:14:55.360 this is not going to be the only attack on 2:14:55.440 --> 2:14:57.960 gender affirming care. It's not going to stop here. This 2:14:58.120 --> 2:15:02.480 is just the latest attempt that they're trying to do. Ultimately, 2:15:03.000 --> 2:15:04.880 we cannot rely on the government to give us a 2:15:04.920 --> 2:15:08.920 central health care. We cannot rely on the government to 2:15:08.960 --> 2:15:11.920 protect us and give us what we need, because fundamentally, 2:15:12.120 --> 2:15:14.879 the government and the laws that it aims to uphold 2:15:15.000 --> 2:15:18.320 are about protecting the rich, protecting the powerful, protecting the wealthy. 2:15:18.960 --> 2:15:22.680 The law is functionally something that gives police power to 2:15:23.320 --> 2:15:27.360 act as essentially an occupying army on the state and 2:15:27.400 --> 2:15:31.200 to persecute anyone who deviates from what those who are 2:15:31.200 --> 2:15:35.520 disproportionately rich and powerful decruity. And we need to start 2:15:35.560 --> 2:15:39.120 focusing on building long term solutions. Everything we can do 2:15:39.280 --> 2:15:42.640 with legislative activism is important, but ultimately it will not 2:15:42.760 --> 2:15:45.480 save us, because there will be more attacks down the line, 2:15:45.480 --> 2:15:48.440 and they'll keep coming, and they only need to win once. 2:15:48.600 --> 2:15:52.160 We need to win that every time. But there are 2:15:52.280 --> 2:15:55.560 long term solutions. My beat at this point is essentially 2:15:55.640 --> 2:15:58.880 just telling everyone to get plugged into your local mutual 2:15:58.920 --> 2:16:02.360 aid network, get plugged into people doing work on the 2:16:02.360 --> 2:16:06.880 ground in your state, in your area who are focusing 2:16:07.080 --> 2:16:09.960 on a plethora of different issues. A bit of a 2:16:09.960 --> 2:16:13.640 self plug here. But I wrote an article, for instance, 2:16:14.280 --> 2:16:17.480 last month, where I interviewed a seasoned activist in the 2:16:17.520 --> 2:16:21.000 Twin Cities who told me just a lot about the 2:16:21.160 --> 2:16:25.920 history of radical practice in the cities, especially in light 2:16:26.000 --> 2:16:30.080 of the George Floyd riots and especially in right of 2:16:30.200 --> 2:16:34.480 corporate pride, rango capitalism whole nine yards recommend reading it. 2:16:34.720 --> 2:16:36.600 It's on the free radical dot org. Check it out. 2:16:37.000 --> 2:16:40.520 But beyond of course, my own writing in my own interviews, 2:16:40.560 --> 2:16:44.120 there are so many people doing work that doesn't get 2:16:44.160 --> 2:16:48.080 covered because it either isn't pattalable to mainstream news audiences 2:16:48.200 --> 2:16:52.039 or it isn't seeking coverage for a variety of reasons. 2:16:52.520 --> 2:16:55.440 In every single major city this I can guarantee there 2:16:55.480 --> 2:16:58.000 are people doing work most of the time. It's not 2:16:58.040 --> 2:17:01.280 going to be publicly visible, but they are there. I 2:17:01.440 --> 2:17:05.200 would recommend that everyone who is not currently plugged in 2:17:05.640 --> 2:17:08.200 gets started with something that is much more entry level 2:17:08.240 --> 2:17:11.360 and something that is much more like meant to be 2:17:11.520 --> 2:17:13.880 kind of for everyone who may not be willing to 2:17:13.879 --> 2:17:18.160 do more in depth and more treesy type of stuff. 2:17:18.440 --> 2:17:21.360 Food not bombs is the great thing I recommend for 2:17:21.400 --> 2:17:24.480 everyone to check out. Not every city has one, most two, 2:17:24.879 --> 2:17:27.560 every state has one. Beyond that, there are plenty of 2:17:27.560 --> 2:17:30.640 local mutual aid groups in every single locality, and if 2:17:30.640 --> 2:17:32.920 there's not one directly by you, there's probably one in 2:17:32.959 --> 2:17:36.840 your nearest major city. I would specifically recommend I'm a 2:17:36.879 --> 2:17:38.960 bit biased here, but I would recommend focusing on ones 2:17:39.000 --> 2:17:42.720 that are decentralized and non hierarchical, ones that don't revolve 2:17:42.760 --> 2:17:46.400 around centralizing power and placing that power in the hands 2:17:46.440 --> 2:17:48.959 of people who are either good at smooth talking or 2:17:49.000 --> 2:17:52.560 who have a lot of money. Ultimately, the way forward 2:17:53.000 --> 2:17:56.000 for people of all different marginalized groups, not even just 2:17:56.040 --> 2:17:59.560 trans people you know on document immigrants, blocking additions, people 2:17:59.600 --> 2:18:02.560 of color, low income people, disable people, and so forth. 2:18:03.000 --> 2:18:06.879 The way forward is by recognizing that our issues affect 2:18:07.040 --> 2:18:11.800 all of us. Attacks on trans healthcare are not limited there. Inevitably, 2:18:11.879 --> 2:18:14.600 let's say they ban trans healthcare overnight, they're going to 2:18:14.600 --> 2:18:16.480 come for intersex people. Next, They're going to come for 2:18:16.520 --> 2:18:19.160 gay people. Next, They're going to come for everyone. So 2:18:19.240 --> 2:18:21.760 I would just say get involved in your local groups 2:18:22.360 --> 2:18:25.160 and reach out. There are resources out there if you 2:18:25.320 --> 2:18:27.720 need some, check out the free radical dot org. I 2:18:27.760 --> 2:18:30.280 recommend a ton of them. Thank you and yees. 2:18:30.840 --> 2:18:35.080 Our upside for Matti Metticast is m adycast dot com 2:18:35.120 --> 2:18:37.760 and you can find our templates for contacting your senators there. 2:18:38.440 --> 2:18:41.960 Thank you so much for helping yourself and helping your community. 2:18:42.640 --> 2:18:44.800 Yeah, thank you so much for that. I want to 2:18:44.840 --> 2:18:47.240 close on I want to read the Route, a real 2:18:47.360 --> 2:18:51.720 line form fucking Davix manifesto from and Or. Remember that 2:18:51.760 --> 2:18:54.200 the frontier of the rebellion is everywhere, and even the 2:18:54.240 --> 2:18:58.000 smallest insurrection pushes our line forward. And one of the 2:18:58.320 --> 2:19:00.680 arguments that going to make sure that is just true 2:19:00.760 --> 2:19:03.360 is that in order to maintain their holds, these people 2:19:03.520 --> 2:19:08.240 have to win one hundred battles across one hundred fronts, 2:19:08.240 --> 2:19:09.560 you know. But this means that there are so many 2:19:09.600 --> 2:19:11.320 different things that you can do to resist them and 2:19:11.360 --> 2:19:14.279 to make sure that this fucking budget they're trying to pass, 2:19:14.480 --> 2:19:17.120 to make sure that everyone in this country suffers, and 2:19:17.160 --> 2:19:19.960 specifically that trans people cannot use the health insurances that 2:19:20.000 --> 2:19:23.000 we need, use Medicaid, use Affordable Care Act to pay 2:19:23.000 --> 2:19:25.800 for stuff. This stuff can be resisted in so many 2:19:25.800 --> 2:19:28.120 different ways. You can ass We've talked about. You can 2:19:28.120 --> 2:19:30.360 call your senators, you can yell at them, you can 2:19:30.360 --> 2:19:33.080 make their lives miserable until they agree to not do this. 2:19:33.720 --> 2:19:36.240 And then also you can join your local mituway groups, 2:19:36.240 --> 2:19:39.320 you can join local activist groups. You can start you know, 2:19:39.360 --> 2:19:41.600 getting a serious or organized. Other ways you can again, 2:19:41.720 --> 2:19:44.360 like we've talked a lot about unions and the role 2:19:44.360 --> 2:19:46.680 of unions and trying to struggle on the show. We've 2:19:46.720 --> 2:19:48.760 talked of God, We've talked about so many things. I'm 2:19:48.760 --> 2:19:50.360 going to do a one second plug for the episode 2:19:50.400 --> 2:19:52.120 I wrote last year called you already know how to 2:19:52.240 --> 2:19:56.480 organize because you do already know how to organize. And Yeah, 2:19:56.760 --> 2:19:58.480 none of the things that are happening here are inevitable. 2:19:58.520 --> 2:20:00.200 They can be stopped and there are so many many 2:20:00.200 --> 2:20:02.320 different ways for you to start stopping them. 2:20:02.720 --> 2:20:07.199 Yeah, So we're back, and we're talking about Gavin Newsome 2:20:07.320 --> 2:20:12.560 and particularly the intersection of the governor of California and 2:20:12.800 --> 2:20:17.520 Donald Trump, which is a lot more shameful than you'd expect. 2:20:17.640 --> 2:20:22.040 So if you remember a little earlier this year, there 2:20:22.240 --> 2:20:27.720 was a big brujaha publicly because a California transgender high 2:20:27.760 --> 2:20:32.240 school athlete won at the woman's eight feet triple jump. 2:20:32.760 --> 2:20:36.920 This is an eleventh grade transgender athlete from Urupa Valley 2:20:37.080 --> 2:20:40.800 High School near Riverside, California, and she won the Division 2:20:40.800 --> 2:20:44.160 three girls long jump and triple jump and placed seventh 2:20:44.200 --> 2:20:47.080 in the high jump at her Southern Section championship. 2:20:47.560 --> 2:20:48.440 A few weeks later. 2:20:48.480 --> 2:20:50.560 There's going to be I don't think it's happened yet, 2:20:50.600 --> 2:20:53.280 a championship meet that she qualified for as a result 2:20:53.360 --> 2:20:55.840 of this. And when this happened, it was immediately left 2:20:55.879 --> 2:20:58.680 on by the Trump administration and by right wing media 2:20:59.200 --> 2:21:01.720 as evidence of this thing that they've been trying to 2:21:01.720 --> 2:21:04.600 push for forever, which is that trans athletes are a 2:21:04.680 --> 2:21:09.720 threat to women's sports. Right now, this is something that 2:21:09.800 --> 2:21:13.240 number one, there's just not a lot of And this 2:21:13.360 --> 2:21:15.600 is also something that like I think something like two 2:21:15.640 --> 2:21:19.520 thirds of Americans when polled say that they don't feel 2:21:19.560 --> 2:21:22.800 like trans athletes should be competing with you know, quote 2:21:22.879 --> 2:21:26.879 unquote naturally born women in women's sports. Right, Like, this 2:21:27.000 --> 2:21:29.480 is a thing that the right has built a lot 2:21:29.520 --> 2:21:32.240 of support for because they have made this a political 2:21:32.280 --> 2:21:34.960 issue for so long, and they've been largely successful in 2:21:34.959 --> 2:21:39.160 that the state of California and California lawmakers have been 2:21:39.200 --> 2:21:43.280 pushing back against this. There have been state bills in 2:21:43.400 --> 2:21:47.640 order to allow these girls to continue to compete. But 2:21:47.800 --> 2:21:51.640 Gavin Newsom has not expressed the same degree of support. 2:21:52.120 --> 2:21:55.720 And this kind of largely came out earlier this month 2:21:55.920 --> 2:21:59.280 when he had a meeting with conservative personality Charlie Kirk 2:21:59.400 --> 2:22:03.280 on his new podcast. As Newsom said, Kirk pushed so 2:22:03.400 --> 2:22:05.640 hard on the topic that Newsom said he felt like 2:22:05.680 --> 2:22:08.640 he had to address it. Here's how Newsom characterized it. 2:22:08.680 --> 2:22:10.480 And then he asked me, tell me that's not fair. 2:22:10.520 --> 2:22:12.320 And I looked at him. I said, you're right, that's 2:22:12.360 --> 2:22:14.959 not And so it wasn't some grand design. And I know, 2:22:15.040 --> 2:22:16.920 I know that hurt a lot of people, but respectively, 2:22:16.959 --> 2:22:19.320 I just disagree with those on the other side of this. 2:22:20.000 --> 2:22:22.520 Now, this brought a backlash against Newsom. 2:22:22.600 --> 2:22:26.080 He was attacked for flip flopping because again, like the 2:22:26.360 --> 2:22:30.520 California Democratic Party's position on this has been to defend 2:22:30.560 --> 2:22:34.240 trans athletes, but Newsom kind of flipped as soon as 2:22:34.280 --> 2:22:37.120 he was in a room with Charlie Kirk. Now, Newsom 2:22:37.160 --> 2:22:39.680 will argue that he also tried to stick up for 2:22:39.840 --> 2:22:43.119 trans athletes to Charlie Kirk. To be clear about that, 2:22:43.200 --> 2:22:46.400 this is exactly what he said to Charlie. Completely fair 2:22:46.480 --> 2:22:49.160 on the issue of fairness, I completely agree. So that's 2:22:49.200 --> 2:22:51.720 easy to call out the unfairness of that. There's also 2:22:51.800 --> 2:22:54.320 a humility and grace that these poor people are more 2:22:54.400 --> 2:22:57.280 likely to commit suicide, have anxiety and depression, and the 2:22:57.320 --> 2:22:59.400 way that people talk down to vulnerable communities is an 2:22:59.440 --> 2:23:01.160 issue that I have a hard time with as well. 2:23:01.400 --> 2:23:03.400 So both things I can hold in my hand. How 2:23:03.400 --> 2:23:05.680 can we address this issue with the kind of decency 2:23:05.680 --> 2:23:07.560 that I think you know is inherent in you but 2:23:07.720 --> 2:23:09.640 not always expressed in the issue. And first of all, 2:23:09.720 --> 2:23:12.760 there's no decency inherent in Charlie Kirk. And second yeah, 2:23:12.800 --> 2:23:15.600 there's also a humility and grace that these poor people 2:23:15.600 --> 2:23:17.120 are more likely to commit suicide. 2:23:17.160 --> 2:23:17.680 What does that? 2:23:17.920 --> 2:23:20.600 What that mean? What does that mean? Gavin, that's not 2:23:20.640 --> 2:23:23.640 a sentence. Also, like, just like I made my living 2:23:23.760 --> 2:23:26.920 exercising for most of my twenties, right, Like. 2:23:26.959 --> 2:23:29.160 You're a professional athletes done sports? 2:23:29.480 --> 2:23:32.240 Yeah, Like and then I've done all kinds of ether 2:23:32.280 --> 2:23:34.080 shit where I still got paid to race my bike, 2:23:34.160 --> 2:23:38.080 right Like, Yeah, sports are unfair. It fucking sucks. I 2:23:38.200 --> 2:23:42.680 coached people who worked way harder than me. They trained 2:23:43.000 --> 2:23:47.840 super hard, they slept well, they ate better. Unfortunately, for 2:23:47.920 --> 2:23:52.200 whatever reason, they were not able to get to the 2:23:52.240 --> 2:23:56.199 same level. That sucks. But like, sport is inherently unfair. 2:23:56.240 --> 2:23:59.120 The idea that like the only difference is like this, 2:23:59.600 --> 2:24:03.800 like you so x y chromosoonality is nonsense. Like, especially 2:24:03.840 --> 2:24:06.800 in high school sports, kids will develop at different times. 2:24:06.840 --> 2:24:09.039 That is unfair. Some kids will excel and then other 2:24:09.080 --> 2:24:12.119 kids will get better. The function of high school sports 2:24:12.200 --> 2:24:15.119 is not to find who can go like higher, faster, stronger. 2:24:15.440 --> 2:24:18.199 It's to teach people to play nicely with one another 2:24:18.280 --> 2:24:24.120 and to communicate inclusion and excluding trans kids is completely 2:24:24.200 --> 2:24:25.280 contrary to that. 2:24:25.879 --> 2:24:29.879 Yeah, and that's like, yeah, I think that's a great point, James, 2:24:30.000 --> 2:24:32.280 is that, like number one, this is all being entirely 2:24:32.320 --> 2:24:35.520 made about like who places how which is always going 2:24:35.560 --> 2:24:39.120 to be based largely on things that like people can't control, 2:24:39.200 --> 2:24:43.200 because like people's bodies are different, you know. 2:24:43.640 --> 2:24:46.080 Yeah, and they developed differently. Like there are people who 2:24:46.120 --> 2:24:47.760 I beat a by graces when I was a kid 2:24:47.760 --> 2:24:49.960 who have one stages at the Tour de France. Yeah, 2:24:50.040 --> 2:24:53.000 Like if our bodies developed differently, that's completely normal. 2:24:53.200 --> 2:24:54.440 Yeah, and it's this again. 2:24:54.520 --> 2:24:57.039 The thing that should matter here is not treating a 2:24:57.080 --> 2:24:59.680 community of people hatefully, which is the entirety of the 2:24:59.720 --> 2:25:01.720 reason the right has made this an issue. It has 2:25:01.800 --> 2:25:03.720 nothing to do with fairness, It has nothing to do 2:25:03.760 --> 2:25:06.400 with sports. It's entirely about hurting a group of people. 2:25:06.600 --> 2:25:09.160 Yeah, if these people gave a single shit about women's sports, 2:25:09.200 --> 2:25:11.039 said it being there when women weren't getting paid the 2:25:11.040 --> 2:25:12.400 same Did it been there when they didn't get the 2:25:12.400 --> 2:25:14.280 same TV covery? Did it there when they didn't get 2:25:14.320 --> 2:25:15.040 the same price money? 2:25:15.120 --> 2:25:17.440 And they were mostly making fun of women's sports at 2:25:17.440 --> 2:25:20.320 that point in time. Now, I do think one thing 2:25:20.360 --> 2:25:23.199 that's funny here is that when Newsom was when people 2:25:23.240 --> 2:25:27.200 asked rightly, like when Californian legislators were pushing to protect 2:25:27.280 --> 2:25:29.879 trans athletes, why didn't you bring up that you felt 2:25:29.879 --> 2:25:32.959 this way, and his answer was, I didn't have a podcast. 2:25:33.120 --> 2:25:34.720 I wasn't having that conversation. 2:25:35.080 --> 2:25:36.920 I was out there on the campaign trail and the 2:25:36.920 --> 2:25:38.920 big blue bubble, on the big blue bus and the 2:25:38.920 --> 2:25:42.280 big blue crowds, having big blue conversations. And then he 2:25:42.320 --> 2:25:44.760 went on to say that basically the backlash to him 2:25:44.800 --> 2:25:47.520 agreeing with Charlie Kirk on this has convinced him. I 2:25:47.520 --> 2:25:50.280 always thought the right overstated how judgmental my party was, 2:25:50.280 --> 2:25:51.959 and I'll be candid with you, I have a deeper 2:25:52.040 --> 2:25:55.359 understanding now of that critique than I ever ever ever understood. 2:25:55.920 --> 2:25:58.080 It's like, now that people are angry at me, I 2:25:58.120 --> 2:26:01.199 believe there's a problem with my part being judgmental. 2:26:01.760 --> 2:26:04.120 Yeah, now that I've faced a consequence of my shit, 2:26:04.200 --> 2:26:05.560 I hate trans people even more. 2:26:05.720 --> 2:26:06.400 Yeah. 2:26:06.480 --> 2:26:09.600 It must be so hard to be Gavin Newsome. It's 2:26:09.640 --> 2:26:13.039 gotta be tough and betray your constituents to get the 2:26:13.120 --> 2:26:19.560 approval of a millennial right wing podcaster who goes around. 2:26:19.240 --> 2:26:21.320 Who still hates you, touring. 2:26:21.040 --> 2:26:24.440 College campuses to debate seventeen year olds. That must be 2:26:24.480 --> 2:26:25.240 so hard for you. 2:26:25.440 --> 2:26:27.400 It's gotta be tough. Gotta be tough, Gavin. 2:26:27.520 --> 2:26:30.880 He did say in his podcast. His kid likes Charlie Kirk, 2:26:30.920 --> 2:26:33.520 not surprisingly. Maybe this is all just a ploy to 2:26:33.520 --> 2:26:34.280 be a cool dad. 2:26:34.360 --> 2:26:36.600 Yeah, I'm not surprised he sucks at being a dad. 2:26:37.000 --> 2:26:40.119 Gavin usedomings, you wants to be a cool dad empty, 2:26:40.320 --> 2:26:41.320 It's embarrassing. 2:26:41.440 --> 2:26:44.520 Reminds me that Jake Dapper just said his kid's not 2:26:44.560 --> 2:26:47.680 really into politics. He's just into World War two and gaming. 2:26:48.640 --> 2:26:51.320 Great part of World War Two. 2:26:51.560 --> 2:26:56.080 Tapurious, curious many such cases. Doesn't his kid want to 2:26:56.080 --> 2:26:57.440 be a cop? Is that Jake Tapper? 2:26:57.560 --> 2:27:00.600 Yeah, that makes sense. That sounds like Jake fucking Taper's kid. 2:27:01.000 --> 2:27:01.480 So look. 2:27:01.680 --> 2:27:05.360 Earlier this week, on Tuesday, President Trump shared a truth 2:27:05.440 --> 2:27:10.280 social post, a truth threatening to yesa he retruthed a 2:27:10.360 --> 2:27:14.080 post threatening to withhold federal funding from California over the 2:27:14.080 --> 2:27:18.280 participation of this high school trans athlete in the upcoming 2:27:18.720 --> 2:27:23.640 California Interscholastic Federation State Track and Field championships. Right, and 2:27:23.720 --> 2:27:26.520 he said that, under the leadership of radical left Democrat 2:27:26.560 --> 2:27:30.440 Gavin Nuskum, California continues to illegally allow men to play 2:27:30.440 --> 2:27:34.320 in women's sports. The governor himself said it is unfair. 2:27:34.760 --> 2:27:38.200 Trump wrote, first off, the fact that Gavin agreed with 2:27:38.320 --> 2:27:41.800 Charlie INA's podcast did nothing to change the rhetoric around him. 2:27:41.840 --> 2:27:44.480 He's still radical left Democrat Gavin newscom because you can't 2:27:44.480 --> 2:27:47.280 make these people unhappy because it's not about fairness, it's 2:27:47.280 --> 2:27:48.320 about hurting people. 2:27:48.520 --> 2:27:51.879 Right, you can fight this. The governor of Maine has been. 2:27:51.879 --> 2:27:53.039 I wanted to talk about Maine. 2:27:53.120 --> 2:27:56.400 Yes, yeah, So Trump made this same threat to the 2:27:56.440 --> 2:27:59.480 state of Maine when the governor of Maine refused to 2:27:59.640 --> 2:28:03.600 stop allowing trans people to compete in women's sports, and 2:28:03.800 --> 2:28:07.119 the administration attempted to freeze funds intended for a main 2:28:07.320 --> 2:28:09.360 child nutrition program. 2:28:09.400 --> 2:28:12.039 No more food for your kids because woa, no more. 2:28:11.920 --> 2:28:13.960 Food for poor kids because woke. 2:28:14.560 --> 2:28:17.200 And in response, the governor made was like, all right, 2:28:17.280 --> 2:28:19.560 let's fucking go to the mat. And they filed a 2:28:19.640 --> 2:28:23.960 lawsuit against the US Department of Agriculture, and the Trump 2:28:23.959 --> 2:28:28.039 administration settled like they they backed down. They agreed to 2:28:28.080 --> 2:28:32.480 stop freezing the funds if Maine dropped the lawsuit, right like, 2:28:32.879 --> 2:28:36.560 as soon as Maine sued, Trump backed down, right, And 2:28:36.720 --> 2:28:40.279 rather than attempting to do that, even though there's ample 2:28:40.320 --> 2:28:43.000 evidence that the administration backs down and to be fair 2:28:43.160 --> 2:28:46.240 and I think against Maine. California's got a lot more 2:28:46.320 --> 2:28:49.760 weight to throw around. Yeah, it's the fifth blackist economy 2:28:49.800 --> 2:28:52.720 on the planet. They have some they have some fucking 2:28:52.840 --> 2:28:56.520 heck behind them, and like News clearly has. 2:28:56.400 --> 2:28:58.840 No moral principle other than advancing his own career and 2:28:58.959 --> 2:29:01.640 personal power and wealth right now. But like, even if 2:29:01.640 --> 2:29:04.920 that is the case, it's so easy to be like, yeah, 2:29:04.920 --> 2:29:06.880 I'll fight him on this, I'll fight for the trans 2:29:07.000 --> 2:29:09.119 kids and get some like resist a points. 2:29:09.520 --> 2:29:12.000 But he's just too much of a fucking cow. The 2:29:12.080 --> 2:29:15.039 first rule of fighting these people is don't give them anything. 2:29:15.240 --> 2:29:18.840 Don't treat them like people. They're monsters, their scum. You 2:29:18.920 --> 2:29:22.000 fight them every step of the way, right, Like, it 2:29:22.040 --> 2:29:24.800 doesn't matter what you feel about the issue. You never 2:29:25.000 --> 2:29:27.720 give pieces a shit like this a win. Yeah right, 2:29:27.800 --> 2:29:29.840 that's just not the way you fight them. 2:29:30.000 --> 2:29:31.760 This is the problem with people like Evin who just 2:29:31.840 --> 2:29:34.320 whose entire politics is just chasing the zeitgeist. 2:29:34.520 --> 2:29:34.800 Yeah. 2:29:34.840 --> 2:29:36.880 So then when you interpret the zeitgeist as like swinging 2:29:36.920 --> 2:29:42.959 against your previously held progressive DEI woke LGBTQ plus values, yeah, 2:29:43.040 --> 2:29:44.720 then you just go along with that swing and you 2:29:44.920 --> 2:29:47.119 actually don't even care about getting this getting this points 2:29:47.120 --> 2:29:49.000 anymore because you think the culture is going in a 2:29:49.000 --> 2:29:51.000 different direction. Sure, and all you care about is being 2:29:51.000 --> 2:29:53.480 in the cultural zeitgeist. Yeah, you don't actually stand for anything, 2:29:53.520 --> 2:29:54.920 like you're just you're's nothing. 2:29:55.040 --> 2:29:56.480 Yeah, and everyone can see that. 2:29:56.560 --> 2:29:59.760 As opposed to understanding. What Governor Frey of Man understands 2:29:59.840 --> 2:30:01.920 was that no, you stand there. You accept that the 2:30:01.959 --> 2:30:04.959 zeitgeist is a screen door and it's going to bounce 2:30:05.080 --> 2:30:08.320 off of you and back in enough for another direction 2:30:08.800 --> 2:30:12.160 if you stand for something, right, Gavin decided not to 2:30:12.200 --> 2:30:15.720 stand for something, and immediately after Trump made that tweet 2:30:15.800 --> 2:30:19.720 threatening to withhold funds from the state of California, and 2:30:20.160 --> 2:30:23.200 you know, the Department of Education has opened title for 2:30:23.440 --> 2:30:28.359 investigations in two leagues that have allowed trans athletes, including CIF, 2:30:28.400 --> 2:30:31.560 which is California's high school governing a sports governing body. 2:30:31.879 --> 2:30:35.800 Right after Trump made this most recent truth, the CIF 2:30:35.920 --> 2:30:38.440 released a statement saying that it had made the decision 2:30:38.480 --> 2:30:41.680 to pilot an entry process for the championship that's coming 2:30:41.760 --> 2:30:45.160 up that will alter the way they hand out awards. 2:30:45.760 --> 2:30:50.040 It will expand qualification opportunities for biological female student athletes. 2:30:50.600 --> 2:30:52.840 Is the exact way that they have phrased this, and 2:30:52.920 --> 2:30:55.959 basically what they're going to be doing is giving an 2:30:55.959 --> 2:31:01.360 award for biological men, biological women, and then competitors, right, 2:31:01.520 --> 2:31:04.280 so there will be like three long jump awards. 2:31:04.640 --> 2:31:07.119 It's like a segregated scoring field. 2:31:08.000 --> 2:31:11.320 Yeah, it's it's some. I guess you could say it's 2:31:11.360 --> 2:31:14.279 not as awful as trying to ban people. But also 2:31:14.480 --> 2:31:17.760 it's kind of like you're not even taking any kind 2:31:17.760 --> 2:31:18.560 of stance here. 2:31:19.600 --> 2:31:21.119 It's not it's just it's nothing. 2:31:21.200 --> 2:31:21.760 It's nothing. 2:31:22.320 --> 2:31:22.560 Now. 2:31:23.040 --> 2:31:26.360 Newsome spokesperson is a garden, says cif proposed pilot is 2:31:26.360 --> 2:31:29.160 a reasonable, respectful way to navigate a complex issue without 2:31:29.200 --> 2:31:33.359 compromising competitive fairness. That governor is encouraged by this thoughtful approach. 2:31:33.920 --> 2:31:37.000 And I should note here this has done nothing to 2:31:37.280 --> 2:31:42.920 actually calm the right or get conservatives to back down right. 2:31:42.760 --> 2:31:44.920 Now, because they don't want trans kids competing at all. 2:31:45.120 --> 2:31:46.840 They don't want trans kids in public life. 2:31:46.879 --> 2:31:48.320 They don't wants existing. 2:31:48.480 --> 2:31:52.840 Yes, and so like the conservative Californians are still angry. 2:31:52.920 --> 2:31:55.240 You can't take them for their word for it. Yeah, 2:31:55.320 --> 2:31:57.920 they don't care about fairness in sports. This is all 2:31:57.959 --> 2:32:02.039 about just eradicating transgenderism from public life. Like as as 2:32:02.080 --> 2:32:04.360 Michael Knowles said at Sea Pack like two years ago, 2:32:04.440 --> 2:32:06.199 like that's yeah, what they actually care about. 2:32:06.560 --> 2:32:08.280 Yeah, and there's you know, there's been a bunch of 2:32:08.320 --> 2:32:13.000 statements some some Democrats and the legislative LGBTQ cock because 2:32:13.000 --> 2:32:15.200 it have been like well, Gavin's you know, otherwise been 2:32:15.240 --> 2:32:18.640 a good ally, you know for LGBTQ people. And I 2:32:18.640 --> 2:32:21.320 don't agree with this is something that an Assembly member 2:32:21.400 --> 2:32:24.760 Chris Ward said basically, I don't agree with this particular move, 2:32:24.879 --> 2:32:27.480 but he's been a good ally for a long time. 2:32:27.680 --> 2:32:29.440 Has he though? Has he though? 2:32:30.040 --> 2:32:30.400 Yeah? 2:32:30.720 --> 2:32:33.680 I mean when it's convenient to him, I guess I prefer. 2:32:33.800 --> 2:32:37.200 Caucus member Alex Lee said that Newsom was quote just 2:32:37.280 --> 2:32:39.720 commenting on how he personally feels. He mentioned it on 2:32:39.800 --> 2:32:42.200 his dumb podcast. He never intended it to be a 2:32:42.200 --> 2:32:46.400 policy direction. Announced, Hell yeah, that's a dumb podcast. 2:32:47.400 --> 2:32:50.039 Yeah yeah, I mean you should be concerned that he 2:32:50.080 --> 2:32:51.760 has a dumb pot cost what he deemed it. I 2:32:51.840 --> 2:32:55.440 just trans people like, yeah, he signed vetos all the time. 2:32:55.600 --> 2:32:58.520 Like again, I found a k Cira add An article 2:32:58.560 --> 2:33:01.440 on this that quotes Republican's leew Woman Kate Sanchez, who 2:33:01.480 --> 2:33:04.680 wrote a bill that would have banned transathletes from competing 2:33:04.720 --> 2:33:07.440 in girls high school sports earlier this year. This is 2:33:07.440 --> 2:33:10.760 what she said about cif's rule chains pilot policy. It's 2:33:10.760 --> 2:33:13.240 incredibly weak. We're angry, We're pissed at this. How every 2:33:13.320 --> 2:33:15.480 day that goes by, no one is protecting our girls. 2:33:15.520 --> 2:33:18.119 This is inexcusable. We need to have something done. Governor 2:33:18.200 --> 2:33:20.400 Newson needs to pick aside, do something, do the right thing. 2:33:20.440 --> 2:33:23.240 So again, this gets you nothing with them, right, It 2:33:23.360 --> 2:33:25.920 benefits you not at all. There's another quote I want 2:33:25.920 --> 2:33:28.600 to read here from State Senator Scott Weiner, who is 2:33:28.600 --> 2:33:30.480 the leader of the Senate Budget Committee and again a 2:33:30.520 --> 2:33:34.560 member of the LGBTQ rights Caucus. Trump is now targeting California, 2:33:34.640 --> 2:33:37.000 just like he targeted Maine. Threatening to withhold federal funds 2:33:37.000 --> 2:33:40.240 of California doesn't follow as illegal edicts targeting transgender people. 2:33:40.520 --> 2:33:43.400 California law protects trans people. That won't change Main one 2:33:43.440 --> 2:33:45.720 in court, So will California. There's only one answer to 2:33:45.760 --> 2:33:48.880 a bully. No, And as Main Governor Janet Mills said, 2:33:48.920 --> 2:33:51.720 see you in court. Sorry I got I don't know 2:33:51.760 --> 2:33:54.080 why I said Governor Fray earlier, but anyway, the point 2:33:54.160 --> 2:33:58.600 here is that you have Californian legislators saying the right thing, 2:33:58.760 --> 2:34:01.840 and then you have fucking Newsome being like, no, no, no, 2:34:01.920 --> 2:34:04.640 actually we're totally going to cave and in a way 2:34:04.680 --> 2:34:08.080 that won't even make the Republicans happy. It's just frustrating 2:34:08.080 --> 2:34:10.880 to me that you do have Democrats trying to do 2:34:10.959 --> 2:34:14.640 the right thing here in California politics and Newsom absolutely 2:34:14.680 --> 2:34:17.200 having CIF do a run around on them out of 2:34:17.240 --> 2:34:20.240 pure cowardice. Anyway, that's what I got. 2:34:20.480 --> 2:34:21.480 Get him out of there. 2:34:21.440 --> 2:34:23.240 Get him out of there. Fuck Kevin Newsom. 2:34:23.520 --> 2:34:26.120 We tried to. That was a recall, but it was 2:34:26.200 --> 2:34:27.320 not for the right reasons. 2:34:27.560 --> 2:34:30.160 Yeah, the last time we recalled a California governor, it 2:34:30.160 --> 2:34:31.199 was a real mixed bag. 2:34:31.640 --> 2:34:34.039 Yeah, speaking of a mixed bag, that's right. 2:34:46.680 --> 2:34:47.440 And we're back. 2:34:47.520 --> 2:34:48.680 Okay, we're back. 2:34:49.000 --> 2:34:49.520 We're back. 2:34:50.080 --> 2:34:51.560 James don want to finish us up here. 2:34:52.200 --> 2:34:54.640 I do, Garrison, I would like that very much. I 2:34:54.640 --> 2:34:56.280 want to talk about a couple of things. I'm going 2:34:56.320 --> 2:34:57.840 to try and keep this faster now it's already been 2:34:57.879 --> 2:35:01.840 a long episode. Let's start with agents have been arresting 2:35:01.920 --> 2:35:05.879 people in immigration court around the country and placing them 2:35:05.879 --> 2:35:08.560 at expedited remove all proceedings. If you want to know 2:35:08.680 --> 2:35:11.560 more about exactly what they exploited remove all proceedings are 2:35:11.640 --> 2:35:14.040 and how they work, you can go back to our 2:35:14.080 --> 2:35:17.320 episode which will have aired the day before you hear this, 2:35:17.800 --> 2:35:19.680 and that would explain and I talked to an immigration 2:35:19.760 --> 2:35:21.680 attorney there and explain a little bit more about how 2:35:21.720 --> 2:35:25.959 that works. This includes people whose cases were not dismissed. 2:35:26.000 --> 2:35:28.480 So previously, it was reported that ICE was dismissing cases 2:35:28.520 --> 2:35:30.800 of people who had arrived less than two years ago 2:35:31.200 --> 2:35:34.560 and placing them under two forty explanited remove all proceedings. 2:35:35.160 --> 2:35:38.040 Apparently they are also detaining other people. I am not 2:35:38.080 --> 2:35:41.560 sure how that works. I have not seen any justifications 2:35:41.560 --> 2:35:44.680 for this to give me an explanation for it. I'm 2:35:44.800 --> 2:35:48.520 not sure how much that matters anymore. These people are 2:35:48.520 --> 2:35:51.480 going to have to fight their removal from detention, which 2:35:51.520 --> 2:35:54.480 is obviously going to be a pretty unpleasant experience. 2:35:54.560 --> 2:35:54.680 Right. 2:35:54.760 --> 2:35:58.200 Detention in these in these cour civic or geogroup facilities 2:35:58.720 --> 2:36:02.359 is pretty bad. I'm aware of cases where I misidentified 2:36:02.360 --> 2:36:06.240 the person being detained cuff the wrong person. And I'm 2:36:06.680 --> 2:36:10.119 aware that there are Spectrum services who are an ICE 2:36:10.160 --> 2:36:15.279 detention officer provider officers, at least outside some of these facilities. 2:36:15.320 --> 2:36:18.840 I believe also inside spectrum services. I've noticed been posting 2:36:18.879 --> 2:36:21.480 a lot of job adverts recently. This is something I 2:36:21.640 --> 2:36:24.680 sometimes keep an eye on, right, Like right before the 2:36:24.720 --> 2:36:27.400 end of title forty two, I saw they were advertising 2:36:27.480 --> 2:36:33.680 for ice contractors to transport detainees. So this is sometimes 2:36:34.320 --> 2:36:36.840 a sign that bad things are a foot in the 2:36:36.840 --> 2:36:40.000 immigration world. I'm guessing in this case it's either this 2:36:40.400 --> 2:36:44.520 or a plan to further expand detention capacity, which also 2:36:44.560 --> 2:36:47.120 something the Trump administration has been talking about. Right, So 2:36:47.520 --> 2:36:51.080 they also have these various subjective orders authorizing more budget, 2:36:51.120 --> 2:36:53.039 and the budget bill or threw thing more budget for 2:36:53.680 --> 2:36:58.440 detaining migrants. Secondly, the South Sudan case rope we've covered 2:36:58.440 --> 2:37:02.520 this last week DVD alvs is known. We also covered 2:37:02.520 --> 2:37:05.440 it earlier in this week. If you go back to 2:37:05.480 --> 2:37:07.959 our episode which aired on Wednesday, you can hear more 2:37:07.959 --> 2:37:09.959 about the sort of blow by blow of timeline of 2:37:10.000 --> 2:37:13.800 that case. In the South Studian case, Trump administration seems 2:37:13.800 --> 2:37:16.200 to have gone directly to the Supreme Court try and 2:37:16.280 --> 2:37:21.440 get an emergency stay on the injunction which afforded due 2:37:21.440 --> 2:37:24.400 process rights to the migrants who are currently detained into Booty. 2:37:25.000 --> 2:37:28.080 The administration asked for a stay of the court's injunction. 2:37:28.879 --> 2:37:32.680 The courts injunction had given them ten days to assert 2:37:32.800 --> 2:37:35.800 their reasonable fear of torture, and then a further fifteen 2:37:35.920 --> 2:37:39.320 days to ask to reopen their case if the Department 2:37:39.320 --> 2:37:43.040 of Home Land Security determined that fear not to be credible. 2:37:43.760 --> 2:37:46.200 Justice Supreme Court Justice Jackson has given the plaintiffs a 2:37:46.240 --> 2:37:51.440 week to respond to the United States the DOJ's call 2:37:51.520 --> 2:37:54.720 for a stay right, So, in practices, people will still 2:37:54.760 --> 2:37:58.680 have that ten days from the injunction to make their 2:37:59.120 --> 2:38:01.720 claim that they have a fear of torture. Right South 2:38:01.760 --> 2:38:04.519 Sudan has said that if these people aren't South Sudanese, 2:38:04.760 --> 2:38:07.640 it will just return them to their country of citizenship. 2:38:08.000 --> 2:38:11.000 So if the United States can't return them there because 2:38:11.040 --> 2:38:13.600 they have a fear of torture, it just seems like 2:38:13.720 --> 2:38:16.119 the whole South Sudan thing is just an end run 2:38:16.440 --> 2:38:19.600 around the Convention against Torture Right there their obligation not 2:38:19.600 --> 2:38:21.560 to return people to places where they will be tortured. 2:38:22.600 --> 2:38:27.400 Talking of returning people to places where they will be tortured. Unfortunately, 2:38:27.879 --> 2:38:32.440 the Trump administration has deported twenty people to Mianma. This 2:38:32.480 --> 2:38:33.920 is according to reporting in Mianma. 2:38:34.120 --> 2:38:34.440 Now. 2:38:34.520 --> 2:38:38.200 I've also written about it on my page Patreon page. 2:38:38.480 --> 2:38:40.200 I've linked both of those in the show notes. But 2:38:40.320 --> 2:38:42.160 it should be noted that meam I now broke the 2:38:42.200 --> 2:38:45.840 story and it's getting very little coverage in the United States. 2:38:46.680 --> 2:38:50.480 I can speculate as to why that. You probably don't 2:38:50.520 --> 2:38:53.000 need to hear me to sort of join the dots there. 2:38:53.560 --> 2:38:56.840 This is atrocious. Robert and I have both spoken to 2:38:56.920 --> 2:39:02.840 people with extensive experience of them, and like, when we 2:39:02.879 --> 2:39:04.800 talk about the worst attention conditions in the world, we 2:39:04.840 --> 2:39:06.560 get to a point where it doesn't really make any 2:39:06.600 --> 2:39:08.480 sense for us to say, like a is worse in. 2:39:08.560 --> 2:39:11.280 Right right, that this is worse than Sednaia or whatever. 2:39:11.320 --> 2:39:14.240 But it's on like the level which was Assad's torture 2:39:14.280 --> 2:39:15.680 prison and syria As. 2:39:15.560 --> 2:39:19.560 Sad's butchery for human beings. 2:39:18.400 --> 2:39:20.240 Like we're talking about that level. 2:39:20.920 --> 2:39:23.199 Yeah, Like I mean things that I have heard. People 2:39:23.280 --> 2:39:26.080 have been electrocuted to death, people are water boarded, people 2:39:26.120 --> 2:39:30.920 have acid poured in their mouths. Bodies are found without organs, 2:39:32.160 --> 2:39:35.400 people are beaten to such an extent that their entire 2:39:35.440 --> 2:39:40.119 bodies are covered with bruises and contusions. Many times people 2:39:40.240 --> 2:39:42.840 will only know that their family member is detained when 2:39:42.840 --> 2:39:44.640 they disappear, and then a few days later they get 2:39:44.640 --> 2:39:48.080 a call telling them to pick up the body. Conditions 2:39:47.680 --> 2:39:53.720 in Burmese hunted attention facilities are atrocious. These people are 2:39:53.959 --> 2:39:58.560 currently being held at the on Tarpi Interrogation Center. It 2:39:58.560 --> 2:40:00.720 appears at seven of the early so this has been 2:40:00.720 --> 2:40:02.920 happening since March. It appears that some of these people 2:40:03.000 --> 2:40:06.560 have been released. The rest are being held by SAC 2:40:06.840 --> 2:40:10.920 that's the Burmese hunter of military intelligence units, who will 2:40:10.920 --> 2:40:15.080 almost certainly torture them. Me and MA does have a 2:40:15.120 --> 2:40:18.520 temporary protected status, but I think I've seen a couple 2:40:18.560 --> 2:40:20.240 of posts about this, so I just want to clarify 2:40:20.560 --> 2:40:23.280 the TPS doesn't apply to people who entered after the 2:40:23.320 --> 2:40:27.360 TPS was granted, or to people who have committed certain crimes. 2:40:28.040 --> 2:40:29.879 We know that at least one of the men they 2:40:30.400 --> 2:40:34.039 returned had been convicted of a crime. Not all of 2:40:34.040 --> 2:40:36.720 these crimes are like particularly Henus felonies. Right, you can 2:40:36.760 --> 2:40:39.600 do a certain number of misdemeanors and also be deported 2:40:39.720 --> 2:40:43.200 under a TPS. But I'm trying to find out who 2:40:43.240 --> 2:40:46.200 these people are. I know that you can't download our 2:40:46.200 --> 2:40:49.480 podcast in Meanma, which is a huge dub for us, 2:40:50.000 --> 2:40:52.600 But you know, I know a lot of Burmese people 2:40:52.640 --> 2:40:55.119 do listen, so you know, if you have an particular 2:40:55.120 --> 2:40:57.520 insight into this, you could reach out to us. We'll 2:40:57.560 --> 2:41:00.480 drop the email addressing a little bit here. Seem very 2:41:00.560 --> 2:41:02.400 unlikely that these people were given a chance to make 2:41:02.400 --> 2:41:05.119 a claim of fear of torture, right, because it would 2:41:05.120 --> 2:41:09.400 be a very easy claim to make, given every major 2:41:09.520 --> 2:41:12.920 human rights organization on the planet has documented torture of 2:41:13.000 --> 2:41:16.039 detainees in Meanma. I was just reading a report this 2:41:16.080 --> 2:41:19.760 morning about harassment of trans women in prisons in Myanmar. 2:41:20.879 --> 2:41:24.039 But the same thing goes for CIS folks, for straight folks, 2:41:24.040 --> 2:41:26.080 for everyone, right, no one, No one comes out of 2:41:26.120 --> 2:41:28.480 there the same they went in. Yeah, I can't believe 2:41:28.520 --> 2:41:30.520 that these people were given a chance to claim a 2:41:30.560 --> 2:41:32.600 credible fear because it would have been such an easy 2:41:32.600 --> 2:41:35.480 claim to make, yep, and they wouldn't have been returned there. 2:41:35.959 --> 2:41:38.879 So yeah, I wish this story was getting more reporting. 2:41:38.920 --> 2:41:41.480 I wish more people in the media in this country 2:41:41.520 --> 2:41:44.320 cared about me and Ma. But that's a drama. I 2:41:44.400 --> 2:41:46.640 have been beating for four years now, and I don't 2:41:46.640 --> 2:41:49.680 think she's going to change anytime soon. So I guess 2:41:49.760 --> 2:41:52.360 all there is to say is that I really appreciate 2:41:52.400 --> 2:41:54.400 those of you who do, especially the third of you 2:41:54.480 --> 2:41:57.400 who listen to the show and take an interest in 2:41:57.840 --> 2:42:00.840 all things me and Maa. But yeah, if these people 2:42:00.879 --> 2:42:02.760 have been returned to a country that the US press 2:42:02.800 --> 2:42:04.560 was more familiar with, there'd be a lot more noise 2:42:04.600 --> 2:42:07.080 about this. But this is absolutely unconscionable. 2:42:07.160 --> 2:42:07.400 Yeah. 2:42:07.720 --> 2:42:09.960 Yeah, these people will be tortured. It would not shock 2:42:10.040 --> 2:42:11.199 me if some of these people died. 2:42:11.480 --> 2:42:14.000 Yeah, Now, this is I mean, there have been cases 2:42:14.040 --> 2:42:16.200 so far of I think at least seven of the 2:42:16.200 --> 2:42:18.680 people that have been sent over previously in the last 2:42:18.879 --> 2:42:21.360 year or so by the US have been released from 2:42:21.400 --> 2:42:24.560 this prison. So it's not unnecessarily a death sentence, but 2:42:24.600 --> 2:42:27.199 for a good number of them it will be, right, Yeah, 2:42:27.680 --> 2:42:31.400 especially since there are also Rohinga people who will be 2:42:31.440 --> 2:42:35.280 deported in the near future and presumably directly back to 2:42:35.360 --> 2:42:35.960 the same place. 2:42:36.400 --> 2:42:39.520 Yeah. I mean it's documented that people deported from Thailand 2:42:39.520 --> 2:42:43.000 are immediately conscripted and yeah sent it to the military. Right, 2:42:43.080 --> 2:42:46.120 So if they get out of prison, there's a good 2:42:46.200 --> 2:42:49.080 chance that, especially if they're men, that they will be 2:42:49.959 --> 2:42:52.760 Women do get conscripted too in Meanmar, but there's a 2:42:52.800 --> 2:42:55.640 good chance that will happen to They've been conscripting a 2:42:55.640 --> 2:42:58.320 lot o Hinga people. So yeah, the outcomes of this 2:42:58.400 --> 2:43:01.440 will be very poor. And uh yeah, the only way 2:43:01.480 --> 2:43:04.720 torture stops in Burma is when the revolution succeeds and 2:43:04.720 --> 2:43:08.120 liberates to Britons. Like that, there is no reasoning with 2:43:08.200 --> 2:43:11.840 the Burmese hunter. Yep, it's about all I got. It's 2:43:11.879 --> 2:43:12.520 pretty fucked. 2:43:13.000 --> 2:43:13.080 Like. 2:43:13.640 --> 2:43:20.240 Speaking of fucked, let's listen to the tariff song riffs 2:43:20.280 --> 2:43:21.440 this week now fuck it. 2:43:21.560 --> 2:43:23.080 Well, let's just listen to it and then have the 2:43:23.160 --> 2:43:24.840 end of the episode just gets a nice song. 2:43:24.959 --> 2:43:26.039 Let's just listen to it now. 2:43:26.240 --> 2:43:27.680 We don't have time to listen to it. This is 2:43:27.720 --> 2:43:28.600 the end of the episode. 2:43:28.640 --> 2:43:32.160 Wow, Garrison took it away from you complained to them online. 2:43:32.680 --> 2:43:36.560 The constant ageist attacks on the Clash have not stopped. 2:43:37.000 --> 2:43:40.199 Sorry, fellas, all that money for nothing. 2:43:41.160 --> 2:43:42.119 We reported the new. 2:43:49.520 --> 2:43:52.680 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2:43:52.760 --> 2:43:54.640 from now until the heat death of the Universe. 2:43:55.400 --> 2:43:56.000 It could happen. 2:43:56.040 --> 2:43:58.440 Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 2:43:58.480 --> 2:44:02.640 podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, 2:44:02.879 --> 2:44:06.000 or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 2:44:06.080 --> 2:44:06.879 or wherever. 2:44:06.600 --> 2:44:09.480 You listen to podcasts can now find sources for it 2:44:09.520 --> 2:44:11.960 could happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions. 2:44:12.320 --> 2:44:13.120 Thanks for listening.