Speaker 1: Call Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let
Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode
Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one
Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to
Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If
Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but
Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.
Speaker 3: Hey, this is me the future. This is recorded in
Speaker 3: the now Haalcion days of January twenty twenty five. Lots
Speaker 3: of things have changed. Basically everything everywhere has gotten worse.
Speaker 3: This is the story about the oppression of trends people
Speaker 3: in the United Kingdom that is very bleak. In many ways,
Speaker 3: United Kingdom has gotten worse since then. The UK Supreme
Speaker 3: Court has ruled that the definition of sex and the
Speaker 3: Equality Act of twenty ten is quote binary and is
Speaker 3: decided by quote biological sex. So whatever the sex that
Speaker 3: some fucking doctor assigns you at birth is your sex
Speaker 3: specifically under the Equalities Act. A bunch of people in
Speaker 3: the UK have decided that this means that like the
Speaker 3: courts have ruled that like sex in general means quote
Speaker 3: unquote biological sex. That's actually not what they ruled, but
Speaker 3: they're doing anyways. So there's been a whole bunch of
Speaker 3: things where, for example, the Labor Party has started purging
Speaker 3: trans women from any like one of their bodies that's
Speaker 3: supposed to be a woman's body. So through the oppression
Speaker 3: of trans people continues to escalate. Yeah, our only path
Speaker 3: out is just open and active resistance against them. In
Speaker 3: a more positive note, Mira, our guest for this episode,
Speaker 3: has since since this episode, has struck out on her
Speaker 3: own and is now the mind and genius behind the
Speaker 3: outlet Free Radical. She will link to here and you
Speaker 3: should go support her work because it's great. Now to
Speaker 3: our episode, it's it could happen here a podcast that
Speaker 3: is largely about the US.
Speaker 4: That my that might.
Speaker 3: Exaggerate the e sat to which is about the US,
Speaker 3: but it is most episodes are about the US, but
Speaker 3: sometimes it's about other places. And one of the frequent
Speaker 3: places that it's about is the United Kingdom. And specifically
Speaker 3: we're here to talk about the United Kingdom because the
Speaker 3: UK is both an image of the presence and the
Speaker 3: future of the oppression of trans people and there have
Speaker 3: been a bunch of just absolutely horrible things happening there
Speaker 3: that have gotten very little press attention. And one of
Speaker 3: one of those things is what appears to be a
Speaker 3: like I guess I would call it like a two
Speaker 3: stage cover up of a bunch of suicides of trans
Speaker 3: kids on waiting lists for healthcare. And with me to
Speaker 3: talk about this fucking terrible shit is Mira Lazine, who's
Speaker 3: a freelance trans journalist. Miro, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 5: Great to be here, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I mean, God, this is one of those
Speaker 3: I always am excited to talk to people, but I
Speaker 3: swear to God, like one out of every four times
Speaker 3: this happens, it's like a I have to pull do
Speaker 3: I want to say, I'm excited to talk to you
Speaker 3: about this because, like Jesus christis is the most depressing
Speaker 3: shit I've seen in ages.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not a fun story. It's an important one,
Speaker 5: probably one of the most important I've ever boarded on,
Speaker 5: but not remotely fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So let's go back to the Halcyon days of mid
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four. I don't know, thanks for she really
Speaker 3: bad then too, but they're worse now. But they were
Speaker 3: also bad then, yeah, So can you talk a bit
Speaker 3: about how this story started and about what was going
Speaker 3: on with the National Health Service, the NHS, which is
Speaker 3: the British basically the British healthcare system is run out
Speaker 3: of National Health Service. Can you talk about the whistleblowers
Speaker 3: there and what was going on with them?
Speaker 5: So, yeah, I first became aware of whats going on independently.
Speaker 5: I was working with Alejandra care Bio the Clinical Instruction
Speaker 5: of cyber Law plant at Harvard sheets a friend of mine,
Speaker 5: and we work together on subjects. She and Ira and
Speaker 5: Almos some other people were talking about the horrific waitlists
Speaker 5: going on with the NHS. It's terrible there. I mean
Speaker 5: not even just for trance stuff. There's only millions of
Speaker 5: reports of people having to wait months to get essential healthcare.
Speaker 5: Some people have died just from like their conditions being
Speaker 5: on the wait list. We had both stumbled upon some
Speaker 5: old news reports from like years prior, about trans kids
Speaker 5: who had unfortunately committed suicide as a result of not
Speaker 5: getting the essential health CUY getting need on the wait list.
Speaker 5: These stories are not talked about their media at all.
Speaker 5: They got like one art mentioned naing what happened to them,
Speaker 5: and then that was it. So we started to invest
Speaker 5: gate it. She was compiling a spreadsheet of everything she
Speaker 5: could find, every news report of kids who experienced this.
Speaker 5: I was pitching helped and contribute to that spreadsheets. And
Speaker 5: then right around the same time, the director then of
Speaker 5: the Good Law Project, a civil rights organization that does
Speaker 5: a lot of legal stuff in the United Kingdom. His
Speaker 5: name is Jolyn Mogam apologized if I mispronounced that. He
Speaker 5: came out with a Twitter thread revealing and this was
Speaker 5: very suddenly. He hadn't contacted anyone about this. He just
Speaker 5: kind of posted it right when he got enough of
Speaker 5: a story and everything. He revealed that he was talking
Speaker 5: to a couple of whistleblowers within the NHS about what
Speaker 5: was going down. And not only did he talk to
Speaker 5: some whistleblowers, but he also gained some independent evidence from himself,
Speaker 5: his own investigation, from meeting it's from officials in the NHS,
Speaker 5: and so what he found kind of again at the
Speaker 5: first was still beliller. This one was someone who did
Speaker 5: not reveal much about who they were publicly and presumably
Speaker 5: to protect their job. But Logan said that with his
Speaker 5: whistleblowers he independently confirmed that they did work for the NHS.
Speaker 5: He saw their ideas. Mangham's that typic guy to lie.
Speaker 5: He's a trusted figure in the UK political scene. First
Speaker 5: one said that there was only one reported suicide prior
Speaker 5: to twenty twenty. Significance of twenty twenty in relation to
Speaker 5: trantelthcare at United Kingdom was that the infamous Caspell versus Tatstock.
Speaker 5: Not going to go into detail of this case because
Speaker 5: it condoluded messy and hellish, but the gist of it
Speaker 5: is that it led to tightened restrictions on gender priman
Speaker 5: care for minors, particularly in the new realm of puberty blockers.
Speaker 5: This ruling ended up kind of restricting how might act
Speaker 5: as puberty blockers. Some it was the leader overturned, but
Speaker 5: it already led to lasting damage. Even after it was overturned,
Speaker 5: a lot of doctors for even prescribe puberty blockers because
Speaker 5: they were worried about political consequences. So a lot of
Speaker 5: miners weren't getting the care they need.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we should also mention here too because I
Speaker 3: think this has been lost in a lot of the
Speaker 3: reporting on this, because like I mean, I guess this
Speaker 3: is the story where a lot of the reporting was
Speaker 3: done by trans people just because like nobody gives a shit.
Speaker 3: But like, the thing about puberty blockers is that puberty
Speaker 3: blockers with the healthcare of trans youth were always a
Speaker 3: sort of compromise measure that was, you know, sort of
Speaker 3: put in place as a compromise of like instead of
Speaker 3: letting kids actually transition and like, you know, go on hormones,
Speaker 3: which is, you know, the thing that kids need, right
Speaker 3: if your goal is to like improve the health outcomes
Speaker 3: of trans kids, like the thing you actually want for them,
Speaker 3: like maximally is for them to have the ability to
Speaker 3: get gender affirming hormones. But you know, the sort of
Speaker 3: the sort of compromise thing that was happenings like, well,
Speaker 3: you could have puberty blockers, but you know, you start
Speaker 3: horbuns later, and that is not a good compromise to
Speaker 3: begin with, but losing it is even worse because the
Speaker 3: alternative to that is like you are now spending even
Speaker 3: more time with a bunch of fucking hormones in your
Speaker 3: system that you don't want. Thats more of more of
Speaker 3: the hormones that you fucking want, and you know you're
Speaker 3: getting you're being forced to go through puberty, which fucking sucks.
Speaker 3: Shit if you're going through I don't know. I don't
Speaker 3: know if the wrong puberty is like the correct language
Speaker 3: or whatever, but like it fucking sucks. It's awful. But
Speaker 3: now you know. And this is just something that's happening
Speaker 3: in the US too. It's also happening in the UK,
Speaker 3: is that the compromise solutions are being knocked out and
Speaker 3: we're seeing the sort of knock on effects of these
Speaker 3: kids losing even the sort of compromise stuff they were
Speaker 3: supposed to be getting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they used come deep bogus justifications for this
Speaker 5: or like we don't see any benefits of pu people loockers,
Speaker 5: And it's like, the point is not that they are
Speaker 5: benefiting these kids directly. No kid is like, oh boy,
Speaker 5: I get to be five years behind on puberty from
Speaker 5: my peers, I get to look like a ten year old,
Speaker 5: but all my peers have bull one beam everything. Oh boy.
Speaker 5: Like no, but the point is that these kids are
Speaker 5: being deprived of the care they absolutely need to stay itlive,
Speaker 5: and it's being targeted just for the sole purpose of
Speaker 5: getting cheap political pals from what are the hell's in office. Yeah,
Speaker 5: but more back to the whistleblowers. So prior to twenty twenty,
Speaker 5: when the Belvy Tavistock ruling came into effect, only one
Speaker 5: transmitter died from suicide. I don't quite remember how I'm
Speaker 5: being the used estimated, but it was broader than the
Speaker 5: one they used after. I believe it was like seven years,
Speaker 5: I think, and the years after which was measured up
Speaker 5: to like the very beginning of twenty twenty four. Chane,
Speaker 5: you at twenty twenty four, so not even four years,
Speaker 5: more like three years. In June months they recorded sixteen debts. Yeah,
Speaker 5: sixteen transgender minors committed to suicide, and they were all
Speaker 5: able to be linked to restrictions on compreticaters and NHS
Speaker 5: wait lists. This was the blower says on This data
Speaker 5: came directly from a doctor who analyzes this stuff professionally,
Speaker 5: is like part of his job in the NHS. The
Speaker 5: doctor also wanted to be anonymous. Understandably, he named himself
Speaker 5: the quote named doctor for Safeguarding child. He tried to
Speaker 5: warn people in the NHS about this. He was like, hey,
Speaker 5: there's something wrong. This isn't right. We are fucking up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he.
Speaker 5: Talked to so many different people, including doctor Hilary Cass,
Speaker 5: who I'll talk of it about later.
Speaker 3: This is a literary device called foreshadowy ETCA giant clip
Speaker 3: flashing big here, giant ominous music surrounding her remain that
Speaker 3: does he just warned.
Speaker 5: Of people basically, and they all ignored him. They all
Speaker 5: just according to him. And this is all alleged. I
Speaker 5: have to say, you know, this has not been verified
Speaker 5: in the court of flaw or anything. This is according
Speaker 5: to the whistleblowers and mongam, but we have no reason
Speaker 5: to believe they lied or fabricated this information about this
Speaker 5: was not even revealed publicly. There is no public outcry.
Speaker 5: There was no action taken by the NHS or any
Speaker 5: of the clinics. So that is the first whistleblower and
Speaker 5: the whistleblower's connection to that doctor. The second one basically
Speaker 5: can and gave independent verification of this. They were like, yeah,
Speaker 5: I've seen the data for myself too, I can confirm
Speaker 5: this is legitimate. Now it wasn't just these sory staff
Speaker 5: members who were trying to raise a larm bells. According
Speaker 5: to the second whistle blower, staff and the NHS were like, hey,
Speaker 5: well this is not cool, we need to do something
Speaker 5: until they got an open letter, sent it to their
Speaker 5: higher ups and reportedly the director of the Tavistock Clinic,
Speaker 5: which was at the time the only gender affirming air
Speaker 5: clinic for minors in the entire United Kingdom. Since that's
Speaker 5: more opened up. But it's a really complicated thing. That's
Speaker 5: a headache to deal with. But head honchos at Tavistock
Speaker 5: completely retabiated. They threatened them a disciplined interaction. They suppressed material.
Speaker 5: They're basically were like, you go public about this, if
Speaker 5: you continue talking about this, you're going to face consequences.
Speaker 5: The thing the thing that instantly came to mind here,
Speaker 5: and I think it's just specifically because of number sixteen,
Speaker 5: but like the first time I read this, the first
Speaker 5: thing that came to my mind was there, you know,
Speaker 5: there's the sort of famous Chicago story of the police
Speaker 5: killing of the Clint McDonald where the slogan afterwards was
Speaker 5: sixteen shots and a cover up. And this is fucking
Speaker 5: sixteen dead at a cover up, And the about a
Speaker 5: fucking rage that I have for all for this, all
Speaker 5: of this fucking shit that these people covered this up,
Speaker 5: that they knew this was happening and were just and
Speaker 5: not only knew this was happening, and not only didn't
Speaker 5: do anything about it, but like actively you contributed to
Speaker 5: fucking making it worse by threatening anyone to try to
Speaker 5: talk about it. Is just so unbelievably disgusting.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I was the first one who broke the story. I
Speaker 5: basically recorded on it, like almost immediately after Moldern Republic
Speaker 5: about this, because I knew not many people were going
Speaker 5: to report on this right away and it was going
Speaker 5: to kind of be a headache. I didn't know how
Speaker 5: he would, but I was the first one to report
Speaker 5: on it. I did it for cheerlest Aaron read subsec
Speaker 5: Aaron in the Morning back in June of last year,
Speaker 5: and I had to stop writing it multiple times, like
Speaker 5: I spent the entire day getting on it because it
Speaker 5: was stomach wrenching reading some of these stories and doing everything.
Speaker 5: The only reason I even got through it was because
Speaker 5: I dissociated the entire time and just kind of impartmentalized
Speaker 5: the anger of a bunch Beretta. It's like Jesus Christ, this
Speaker 5: is horrifying. But Malcolm was not talking out of his
Speaker 5: aspetus too. He brought receipts right in the initial thread
Speaker 5: he showed leaked to meeting minutes and like you can
Speaker 5: see water marks from the NHS on these meeting minutes.
Speaker 5: Like it is unless someone wants to suggest that he
Speaker 5: did a giant conspiracy and fabricated a bunch of very
Speaker 5: accurate meeting minutes that reflect publicly available meeting minutes elsewhere,
Speaker 5: it it's pretty reputable. Yeah, these minutes show that any
Speaker 5: test officials were aware of every single one of these debts,
Speaker 5: every single one of them. People were in these meetings
Speaker 5: calling for an independent investigation into each of these debts,
Speaker 5: into gender firming care for miners, into restrictions. They wanted
Speaker 5: to investigate everything and had detailed data. They had information
Speaker 5: on the type of care they received, which was basically negligence,
Speaker 5: and instead of reporting on this publicly, instead of doing
Speaker 5: an investigation, they covered this up. They didn't do anything,
Speaker 5: and they just pretended like everything was fine, like there
Speaker 5: was no debts as a result of this. They were
Speaker 5: acted nothing wrong was going on, and these meeting minutes
Speaker 5: are still public too. Mangan is not believed in that
Speaker 5: it's still on his Twitter account. Good Law Project is
Speaker 5: not fully a thing any more of the kind of
Speaker 5: dissolving their stuff right now, but Magan is still keeping
Speaker 5: all information up. It's all detailed, it's publicly there. People
Speaker 5: can see for themselves these minutes and it's horrifying seeing
Speaker 5: the physical proof. It's yeah, it's horrifying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we need to go to ads and when
Speaker 3: we come back, we'll get to the second fucking cover
Speaker 3: up because there was a second one. Did it again
Speaker 3: this time with the British broadcasting What the fuck does
Speaker 3: the C stand for corporation?
Speaker 6: That one British broadcast in corporation leading the charge.
Speaker 3: And we are back. So let's talk about the fucking
Speaker 3: second cover up because normally, normally you only get one
Speaker 3: cover up when your fucking healthcare policies kill a bunch
Speaker 3: of people, but no, two, they got multiple cover ups.
Speaker 3: Before we get to the second cover up, we need
Speaker 3: to talk about what the cash report is because that's
Speaker 3: also part of this. And we kind of bounced around
Speaker 3: a little bit but then didn't. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, so the cast report is probably one of
Speaker 5: the worst things to come out at the anti trans
Speaker 5: crowd in the past decade.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 5: The gist of it is, it's essentially a supposedly independent
Speaker 5: report commissioned by the Knighting government to investigate the efficacy
Speaker 5: of huberty blockers and gender of herman care from liners
Speaker 5: authored by doctor Hillard Cass, who they claimed is an
Speaker 5: expert in the subject. I'll get to that in a second.
Speaker 5: The gist of what it was claiming is that no
Speaker 5: puberty blockers do anything. They actually hurt the kids. They
Speaker 5: don't improve mental health, they don't protect anything, suicide to
Speaker 5: stay the same, it's all bad. Get rid of them
Speaker 5: and actually restrict gender perman care two and also maybe
Speaker 5: we should de transition these kids too. It's a very
Speaker 5: long documents, actually a set of documents, but the primary
Speaker 5: one isn't incredibly long. I remember when it first it
Speaker 5: came out last year. It's been in the works for
Speaker 5: the better part of the last decade. Still get twenty tens.
Speaker 5: It's been in the works. I don't remember the exactly
Speaker 5: gear that it was initially commissioned, but it's been something
Speaker 5: the United Kingdom government has been waiting on for a
Speaker 5: while to take action for gender reforming care. Now to
Speaker 5: understand the CAST report, you gotta understand a little bit
Speaker 5: about Hillary Cass. Hillary Cass is not an expert in
Speaker 5: gender firming care seeing up for minors. She has never
Speaker 5: treated a transgender patient aimed her professional practice.
Speaker 3: Whatsoever, which, thank god yes, because holy shit, oh she
Speaker 3: is such a transphob Oh my god, yes, but yeah,
Speaker 3: also utterly unqualified.
Speaker 5: Completely unqualified while she was writing it instead of talking
Speaker 5: with single trans person as like part of the consulting
Speaker 5: because she didn't do it by herself. It's wait too
Speaker 5: long for anyone to do buyers by themselves. She got
Speaker 5: a bunch of unknown advisors to help her with this,
Speaker 5: one of which is a Finnish psychiatrist who has been
Speaker 5: campaigned against transgender rights for the past twenty years. But
Speaker 5: she did not have any trans people on the consulting board,
Speaker 5: not a single one. Well, of course, why would you
Speaker 5: talk to a transperson about trans healthcare? Like that's why
Speaker 5: would you. Trans people don't know anything. They need to
Speaker 5: be regulated and told exactly what's best for them by
Speaker 5: people who have never even talked to them before. She actually,
Speaker 5: while she was writing it, she talked to Florida Healthcare
Speaker 5: officials during the Ron DeSantis fstration for information YEP on
Speaker 5: what to do like and these officials, by the way,
Speaker 5: they weren't just like leftovers from the prior governor. They
Speaker 5: were appointed by Ron de Santis and have literally been
Speaker 5: Jews bidding and restricting healthcare.
Speaker 3: Yeah, appointed by the guy who in the last campaign
Speaker 3: cycle had to fucking add with a son and rat
Speaker 3: in it. So like, you know the level of Nazi
Speaker 3: we're dealing with here.
Speaker 5: Uh. And not only did she work with them, but
Speaker 5: there's even more. She worked with numerous people who were
Speaker 5: tied to anti transit groups, most notable of which is
Speaker 5: the quote Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine.
Speaker 4: God.
Speaker 5: They are probably one of the leading anti transgroups right now.
Speaker 5: They are southern poverty, low centered, desic hate group. They're
Speaker 5: not very fun people. They all have a financial interest
Speaker 5: in opposing transgender rights. Many of the people with them
Speaker 5: have been quite orderly paid to oppose transjunder rights in court.
Speaker 5: There's a whole rabbit hole to get into there. The
Speaker 5: point being she's worked with hate groups, She's worked with
Speaker 5: the Santa's appointees, She talked to no trans people, and
Speaker 5: she lied a lot. When the cast for Brew first
Speaker 5: came out, I was one of the people who was
Speaker 5: working around the clock to try to be like, hey,
Speaker 5: let's not just assume that this is immediately accurate, because
Speaker 5: we should wait for independent scholars to evaluate this. There's
Speaker 5: a lot of shady stuff going on here, and why
Speaker 5: didn't you know it? A lot of things were wrong
Speaker 5: for starters. Ass misrepresented a lot of what she did
Speaker 5: for the review. It was supposed to be a systematic
Speaker 5: review into all the literature and pubi blockers. The problem
Speaker 5: is she left out a bunch of studies, especially more
Speaker 5: recent ones with better elogies. She and her method degrade them,
Speaker 5: basically changed it up last minute and didn't seek peer
Speaker 5: review for it from her institution's review the board, which
Speaker 5: she didn't speak any ethical verification on anything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which, which is which is amazing. It's like, do
Speaker 3: you know how fucked your report has to beat and
Speaker 3: like your anti transferport has to be and not be
Speaker 3: able to survive a British peer review board like Jesus Christ.
Speaker 8: It's like yeah, like it's it gets even worse because
Speaker 8: as time went on, a lot of journalists, myself included,
Speaker 8: found a bunch of little pact role in art seat there.
Speaker 5: She was misrepresenting this study. She was misterpreting that study.
Speaker 5: Lots of little information it was she at one point
Speaker 5: fighted a YouTube channel that is dedicated to opposing trans rate.
Speaker 5: That be the YouTube channel in your fucking secitations. It
Speaker 5: was a tangential citation, but the point being the fact
Speaker 5: that she even discovered that shows her allegiances. She was
Speaker 5: in the CAST Review. She was trying to cast doubt
Speaker 5: on the leading medical association for trans people, the war
Speaker 5: Professional Association for Transgender Health. She was like, Oh, no,
Speaker 5: you're actually not good. They're politically biased. I'm not though,
Speaker 5: don't more eyes, don't investigate me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And in the time since, there's been a shit ton
Speaker 5: of medical experts coming forward opposing the CAST Review, being like, no,
Speaker 5: the methodology is garbage. Not just journalists saying it. There
Speaker 5: are quite littly been hundreds of metabirds who have come
Speaker 5: forward to publicly imposed the CAST Review. These are people
Speaker 5: across a variety of fields, psychiatrists, pediatrician and anechronologists, basically
Speaker 5: everyone you could imagine who would be relevant to the
Speaker 5: study of transunder health and minors. They have come forward
Speaker 5: against it, including most of the leading researchers in the field,
Speaker 5: including people who have actually important with trans people in
Speaker 5: a professional capacity.
Speaker 3: Yeah wow, And this review.
Speaker 5: It's the reason the United Kingdom went on last year
Speaker 5: to ban puberty blockers in all four countries within it.
Speaker 5: They started in England, then they spread it out to Scotland,
Speaker 5: Wales with their beauty blocker ban, and was recently right
Speaker 5: before New Year's they banned it in Northern Ireland. And
Speaker 5: because of this, so many clinics are now just not
Speaker 5: treating transple including transgender adults. They are out transgender adults
Speaker 5: not getting the care they need. Yeah, because of something
Speaker 5: ton't even discuss trans adults in a meaningful capacity.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And that's and that's part of the thing with the
Speaker 3: Cast Review, right, is that, like, you know, it literally
Speaker 3: like it could have just been like seven hundred pages
Speaker 3: of fuck you over and over again and it would
Speaker 3: have had the same effects, because the point of the
Speaker 3: Cast Review wasn't actually to like establish anything medically. It
Speaker 3: was to just have a document that you could point
Speaker 3: at and then justify any policy whatsoever. Like it's it's
Speaker 3: kind of like it's kind of like the way the
Speaker 3: Gambits and the Bell Curve works were, like none of
Speaker 3: the actual policy recommendations follow from any of the arguments
Speaker 3: that they're making. But it exists so that you can
Speaker 3: make those policy arguments and then point to like, oh
Speaker 3: it's because of IQ and this is this is the
Speaker 3: same like bullshit IQ, like fake IQ science, right, Like.
Speaker 5: There's literally IQ science used to justify the puberty blocker band.
Speaker 10: Of course there is why they are claiming that puberty
Speaker 10: blockers reduce IQ using a STO from like two thousand
Speaker 10: and one on one of the and a separate study
Speaker 10: on show god, a separate study on fucking sheep.
Speaker 5: How are you measuring the IQ of sheep?
Speaker 3: Like yeah, okay, yeah, we wheeled in the sheep to
Speaker 3: do the fucking Army standard amplitude test. Like ah, it'
Speaker 3: scored real bad. Give it puberty blockers and it scored
Speaker 3: even worse.
Speaker 5: It gets garbage science.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but one of the important things, like cocclusions here
Speaker 3: is that, like so one of the one of the
Speaker 3: sort of things that's happening now is that fucking feral
Speaker 3: attack dog. I don't know fuckings sue me, you motherfucker.
Speaker 3: We won the revolution. Each shit west Streeting who's now
Speaker 3: running British Healthcare, issued a fucking thing to to ban
Speaker 3: puberty blockers for trans youth, you know, and he cites
Speaker 3: the Cash Report. Do you know what's not in the
Speaker 3: Cash Report? A recommendation to ban puberty blockers? Do you
Speaker 3: know what these fucking he doing you anyways? Because that's
Speaker 3: the actual sort of purpose of the report is to
Speaker 3: serve as sort of like just a kind of like
Speaker 3: talisman you can hold up and say, ha, see this
Speaker 3: is justified. Yeah, and can you talk about the whistleblowers
Speaker 3: and the Cast report too, because this is the thing
Speaker 3: that I has seen very very little coverage that is
Speaker 3: extremely important.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So the whistleblowers, they literally reached out to the Cast
Speaker 5: while she was writing the review. She had to be like, hey,
Speaker 5: restricting puberty blockers isn't good. And like you said, Pass
Speaker 5: did not recommend to ban puberty blockers. She called for
Speaker 5: more research into it and like some restriction, but not
Speaker 5: an outgrade band that was not anywhere within it. Even
Speaker 5: with her extremism, she's like, maybe we shouldn't restrict everything completely,
Speaker 5: you know, maybe we should just de transition some of
Speaker 5: the kids. But she did not advocate for a full
Speaker 5: on ban, and she has even gone public into the
Speaker 5: media to clarify that she has does not believe in
Speaker 5: a hole on ban and yet she ignored the whistleblowers.
Speaker 5: She ignored them when they came to her being like, hey,
Speaker 5: there's evidence that restricting pubery blockers is haunting these depths
Speaker 5: record and she didn't do anything. We don't know the
Speaker 5: specifics of that conversation. That's not public information. But you
Speaker 5: read the cast review, you're not coming away with it thinking,
Speaker 5: oh boy, she's really concerned about kids who are killing themselves. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you're coming away with it thinking she doesn't believe a
Speaker 5: shit and she has her own agenda.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so okay, we're going to take another ad break,
Speaker 3: and then we're going to get to the promise second
Speaker 3: cover up, and we're back for cover up number two.
Speaker 3: So okay, we have now introduced briefly the fucking spawn
Speaker 3: of Satan himself, West Reading. Can you talk a little
Speaker 3: bit more about him and the cover up that he
Speaker 3: commissioned of this?
Speaker 5: So yeah, when I broke this story, it was getting
Speaker 5: no coverage. No other news outlet wanted to touch it.
Speaker 5: There were actually some journalists I talked to I'm not
Speaker 5: going to name any names, but journalists I talked to
Speaker 5: you who are trying to get their editors to publish
Speaker 5: a story on these claims and they were like, m
Speaker 5: I don't think so. I think we're going to do that.
Speaker 5: It's too speculative and things like that. People were actively
Speaker 5: shutting it down, especially in the British media. Yeah, and
Speaker 5: for about a month the NHS was nordness and not
Speaker 5: getting public comment. Enter West streaming. You said, he is
Speaker 5: the head of British Healthcare officially, is like fucking the
Speaker 5: head of the Secretary of State for Help and Social
Speaker 5: Care some shit like that. But he's a sellout. He's
Speaker 5: a labor guy, you know, the party that's supposed to
Speaker 5: be at least kind of left wing and some and
Speaker 5: he threw trans people under the bus the first chance
Speaker 5: he got, right after Turf started pressing him for it
Speaker 5: was streating in all his awful, awful glory, looked at
Speaker 5: Mullgan's thread and thought, what if I denied this? So
Speaker 5: he commissioned Professor Lewis Appleby or Appleby. He is a
Speaker 5: leading suicide researcher he at the University of Manchester. Except
Speaker 5: even though he's been in the field of suicide research
Speaker 5: for decades, in the past year or so he's been
Speaker 5: cozying up to a lot of antutrians people. Yeah, there's
Speaker 5: shipped ton of tweets of him basically talking to turfs,
Speaker 5: repeating the oh you can't have men and women's sports nonsense,
Speaker 5: you can. What does him going down the pipeline?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just he's a he's a turf. Yeah, like
Speaker 3: that's the.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's a the turf. He's a turf. Who I
Speaker 5: do you does not professionally really work with Transius commits suicide.
Speaker 5: He does not discuss LGBTQ issues in his brieft arch
Speaker 5: as his primary focus. He does it for the general population.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I haven't read every single study of his, so it's
Speaker 5: probably as like one or two that talk about LGBQ
Speaker 5: suicide rates. But by no means is he like the
Speaker 5: guy you go to to learn about why suicide attempts
Speaker 5: and suicide rates are a thing in the LGBTQ population.
Speaker 5: West Reading was like, Hey, Lewis, do you want to
Speaker 5: write a quote unquote debunking of Margam's dread. So enter
Speaker 5: the I have it up right now. They quote review
Speaker 5: of Suicide from Gender Dysphoria at the Tavistock and Portman
Speaker 5: NHS Foundation Trust Independent Report. This guy, he basically claimed
Speaker 5: that Nope, there's no data for this. Actually Mogam's wrong
Speaker 5: is that data pans it out. The data doesn't lie.
Speaker 3: It's also funny because his argument is that trans people
Speaker 3: were already killing themselves. Yeah, it was just like it
Speaker 3: was really fucking plaque you think about it. But now there's.
Speaker 5: Gripes a million breaths of people could have with this.
Speaker 5: For start, the data set is obviously too small to
Speaker 5: analyze fucking statistically. Makes no sense to try to do
Speaker 5: a fucking in death satistical analysis on what marg was
Speaker 5: claiming with sixteen kids. That's not but you're not going
Speaker 5: to get shit out of that. That's not really a
Speaker 5: big issue with it. The big issue that Mogum himself
Speaker 5: actually pointed out. In the same day that this came out,
Speaker 5: Logan pointed out that this analysis was just wrong from
Speaker 5: the start. For starters, this guy analyzed quote current and
Speaker 5: former patients of under Identity Service. Malcolm's claims weren't about that.
Speaker 5: Malcom's claims were about those who were on the waiting list.
Speaker 3: Which is which which is just nuts. Like it is
Speaker 3: up here for a second, it's like the difference between
Speaker 3: again on the waiting list and have finished care, like, what, yeah,
Speaker 3: what are we doing here? Oh god, how did this
Speaker 3: get past any be the outlet? I mean tretsphobia?
Speaker 5: But like really yeah, now there's other problems with what
Speaker 5: It's kind of suspicious. So applebye, Applebee. However he pronounce
Speaker 5: his last name, He's.
Speaker 3: Gonna call him Applebee's because fuck him Applebee's.
Speaker 4: Fuck it.
Speaker 5: He used data directly provided by NHS inclin. Now student
Speaker 5: viewers will notice something. Magham never claimed to access data
Speaker 5: directly given to them from NHS Acland. He was given
Speaker 5: data from whistleblowers. Magham actually in this direct because he
Speaker 5: wrote a whole debunking this debunking, and Morgan was like,
Speaker 5: he revealed that he actually a month before this was published,
Speaker 5: he reached out to NHS angling to be like, hey,
Speaker 5: can I have your data on this subject. I've gotten
Speaker 5: a lot of information I want to try to corroborate it.
Speaker 5: They denied him the data. They just denied him it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember incorrectly. Part of it was they claimed
Speaker 3: the data didn't exist.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, they claimed it didn't exist, that they just
Speaker 5: didn't have it at all, and something. They pulled that
Speaker 5: up in air for good old Applebee's well, there's some
Speaker 5: other insure inconsistencies. As we know, Mogham had receipts he
Speaker 5: provided information on minutes directly from NHS meetings discussing these suicides.
Speaker 5: The minutes don't match up to the data Applebee's has.
Speaker 5: Applebee's is underestimating everything. And yeah, very recently, this has
Speaker 5: not gotten any media coverage at all. Those who have
Speaker 5: been following UK politics for a while, especially trans politics,
Speaker 5: remember the unfortunate case of Alice Linn. Yeah, she was
Speaker 5: a young trientleman who committed suicide as advantage of this
Speaker 5: wait lists years ago. Her mother, Er Litman, has been
Speaker 5: a staunch outline trans people since. She's been one of
Speaker 5: the excusest people in the UK to be like, hey, no,
Speaker 5: I'm I'm putting my all behind trans people. She's wonderful.
Speaker 5: She came out publicly revealing that Alice Litman was not
Speaker 5: included in Applebe's data set, even though she should have been.
Speaker 5: She was within Yeah the years. So what this says
Speaker 5: is that Applebee's had bad data that didn't include every kid.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, here's the thing we don't know about that, right,
Speaker 3: It's possible he had bad data. It's possible he's also
Speaker 3: just been falsifying his data because like again, he won't
Speaker 3: show it to us, so we have no fucking idea
Speaker 3: what like what he was, what he was actually provided
Speaker 3: with and what he was like you know what, or
Speaker 3: what things he did to the It says that he
Speaker 3: was given beforehand to produce what he's analyzing in his report.
Speaker 5: True, and there was of course a bunch of smaller
Speaker 5: issues you could point out with Applebee's review, but the
Speaker 5: crux of it, it's bogus data is a matchup. As
Speaker 5: you said, he could be falsifying it. He could have
Speaker 5: just been given bad data. We don't know. He's not
Speaker 5: sharing anything. The NHS isn't sharing anything. Yeah, but all
Speaker 5: we know is that there's major inconsistencies and they they're
Speaker 5: not doing shit with it. And this is where we
Speaker 5: enter everyone's favorite mainstream media, the lovely British media specifically
Speaker 5: outlooks like the BBC right literally within the first twenty
Speaker 5: four hours of this review coming out, they've applored it
Speaker 5: on it. At this point, my coverage has been there
Speaker 5: for a month. It loggam's claims have been out there
Speaker 5: for a month. They weren't touched them, and yet the
Speaker 5: moment someone came out with the NHS trying to be like,
Speaker 5: actually it's false. They were rush to report on it
Speaker 5: something they claimed was not newsworthy Previously. Yeah, and mind you,
Speaker 5: Mougam's rebuttal to this review was posted publicly at this time,
Speaker 5: at the time that this media coverage was going up.
Speaker 5: At the BBC article breaking the story up, the only
Speaker 5: discussion they give to basically any issues with this is
Speaker 5: just a couple of brief sentences talking about Mogam's issues
Speaker 5: with him. At the beginning, they just claimed that Morgan
Speaker 5: had profound difficulties and at the very end of the article,
Speaker 5: buried at the bottom, they gave Mogam like three sentences,
Speaker 5: and they left out a lot of information, like the
Speaker 5: minutes Muggham showed that he got from whistleblowers, the exact
Speaker 5: claims he got from whistle blowers. They just didn't report
Speaker 5: on it. They they gave such intense coverage to alt
Speaker 5: these Applebee's claims in the review, and then they just
Speaker 5: plot o ignored everything Magham was singing, everything everyone else
Speaker 5: was doing. Now again I add, sure we don't know
Speaker 5: for sure whether who's telling the truth, but the NHS
Speaker 5: has an incentive to lie here, Magham doesn't. Magham is
Speaker 5: getting his career torch basically because they go going forward
Speaker 5: about all this.
Speaker 3: And you can tell which side the BBC is on.
Speaker 3: You know, they give the game away at the end
Speaker 3: where they give the last word of this article to
Speaker 3: Ken Barker, who is the chief executive the LGB Alliance,
Speaker 3: which is an anti transait group, and you know, and
Speaker 3: they give her the last sentence saying that trans people
Speaker 3: are spreading misinformation to serve a dangerous and homophobic ideology.
Speaker 3: And I like, quite specifically, like Kate Barker, if you
Speaker 3: ever fucking listen to this, fuck you eat shit, Like
Speaker 3: this is direct evidence that of the BBC's fucking political
Speaker 3: line here, because again they're giving the closing statement to
Speaker 3: a group that is literally just an anti transacor because
Speaker 3: the BBC is the institutional is to institutional fucking media
Speaker 3: arm of the British government, and the British government is
Speaker 3: institutionally transphobic.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'm not gonna say that what the information
Speaker 5: right now, we have a definite news that's not the problem.
Speaker 5: The problem is this have been being investigated any non
Speaker 5: biased fucking NHS, any non biased British, Yeah, would look
Speaker 5: at Moggan's claims and think, oh wow, we should look
Speaker 5: into this, we should independently verify. Yeah, we should try
Speaker 5: to cor operate everything saying, or at least see if
Speaker 5: he's accurate, which which again, and I want to put
Speaker 5: this out this is the job of a journalist. The
Speaker 5: job of a journalist is not to fucking literally reprint
Speaker 5: a press report from fucking like commissioned by the fucking government.
Speaker 5: Your job is to go find the fucking whistleblowers and
Speaker 5: talk to people. Did the British Did the fucking BBC
Speaker 5: do this? No, of course they didn't, because they're fucking
Speaker 5: PR hacks. Yep, they're PR hacks for a transgendocide. And
Speaker 5: like quite frankly, and I will say this on the
Speaker 5: fucking record, because I'm not a journalist, fuck these people,
Speaker 5: like this is this is what the BBC wants, Like
Speaker 5: fucking dead trans kids and a cover up is what
Speaker 5: they institutionally what this fucking organization wants because they fucking
Speaker 5: hate trans people and they are completely okay with all
Speaker 5: of this shit happening as long as long as they
Speaker 5: fucking get to do another story about how fucking JK
Speaker 5: Rowling is a brave truth teller or whatever like this,
Speaker 5: this is what these people want. I agree, and I
Speaker 5: also agree with your statement. Uh, the British media cannot
Speaker 5: call fuck themselves and I hope they've Robben. Hell yeah,
Speaker 5: I don't know how you can, as a journalist, someone
Speaker 5: trained to prioritize the truth and nothing but the truth,
Speaker 5: look at all this and think this is suspicious going
Speaker 5: on here. There's nothing that warrant further investigation, even if
Speaker 5: Malcolm's claims are false, right, even if everything Malcolm says
Speaker 5: he made it up. He's an influential guy. He has
Speaker 5: been covered by the media for his lawsuits with the
Speaker 5: Good Law Project countless time before. He's made national headlines there.
Speaker 5: And they don't investigate this at all, Like, yeah, they're
Speaker 5: rushing to report on everything fucking JK Rowling says everything
Speaker 5: some random fucking turf is saying, May Angelou whoever ter
Speaker 5: if you want to run?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm realizing there are people listening to this.
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe you're still listening to the episode
Speaker 3: and you don't know about the JK rolling Turf stuff,
Speaker 3: but like to get an understanding of like how vehement
Speaker 3: of like an anti trans hate figure she is, Like
Speaker 3: anti trans groups literally wear her face as a mask.
Speaker 3: Like I'm not joking. She she she fucking retweeted them
Speaker 3: an anti trans group literally wearing like printed out copies
Speaker 3: of her face as a mask. Like that is that?
Speaker 3: That is the status that she has in the anti
Speaker 3: trans world right, Like and then the VBC fucking loves
Speaker 3: her so everything she does and she's not even an
Speaker 3: expert in anything.
Speaker 5: She's a fucking author of children's books.
Speaker 3: Like yeah, you know it's like, well, we'll talk to
Speaker 3: the authors of Sheldon's book when we talk to trans people, know,
Speaker 3: And I mean that's what ever thing about this is,
Speaker 3: Like the BBC never talked to a transperson. They did
Speaker 3: talk to an anti transhaite group though, so you know,
Speaker 3: you know, you know what fucking side of this is
Speaker 3: considered valid by the British political and media establishment. Oh
Speaker 3: and also at the bottom and like, I know that
Speaker 3: they're doing this because this is just like standard policy
Speaker 3: for like if you're doing a thing story about suicide,
Speaker 3: but the very end of the article is a is
Speaker 3: a link to a bunch of suicide and crisis hotlines,
Speaker 3: So uh, one last fuck you to every transperson reading this. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the one two punch of we quoted an anti trans
Speaker 3: hate figure, here's a suicide hotline is like real, who.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a it's a fucking insult it.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 5: It just gets me how they didn't report on these
Speaker 5: claims at all when they were initially made, Like it
Speaker 5: didn't even have to be a big story, Like most
Speaker 5: fucking outlets I've written for would have just reported as like,
Speaker 5: oh this, this guy said this, we're waiting more information, okay, whatever.
Speaker 5: It wouldn't be a good reporting, but it'd be the
Speaker 5: bare minimum. We didn't even do that. They rushed to
Speaker 5: just to repeat whatever the fuck. A commission review from
Speaker 5: the government said, that's more reputable, I guess than you know,
Speaker 5: leading advocates who actually cited their sources instead of just
Speaker 5: during shit at the wall.
Speaker 3: Yep, And I think that's that's That's as good of
Speaker 3: a place as endy to stop. Less you have anything
Speaker 3: else you want to make sure people know about about this, No,
Speaker 3: I think that's it. Yeah, thank you so much for
Speaker 3: coming on the show. And where can people find you
Speaker 3: in your work?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Thank you for having me. I I can primarily
Speaker 5: be found on Blue Sky That is the main place
Speaker 5: I post now. Yeah, I'm at meural u gene a
Speaker 5: blue sky dot social. Beyond that, you'll probably see one
Speaker 5: of my articles published around because I am constantly working
Speaker 5: my ass off.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is what it could happen here. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, there's still time for this
Speaker 3: not to happen here. So yeah, go go organize and
Speaker 3: go make West Reading and the BBC have a bad day.
Speaker 4: Hell yeah, hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here.
Speaker 4: It's me James today here to bring you more terrible
Speaker 4: news about migration and deportation. And I'm joined to share
Speaker 4: that terrible news by Gillian Bruckell, a journalist who has
Speaker 4: been tracking deportation flights to dbooty. Hi Gillian, Hi, how
Speaker 4: are you?
Speaker 5: James?
Speaker 4: I'm good. Well, amidst the crumbling of everything, that's wonderful.
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, this is terrible news, but I'm also
Speaker 11: very excited to be in the Cool Zone Universe.
Speaker 1: I love all of the shows.
Speaker 4: Yeah, welcome, welcome to the called universe. It's the Sophie
Speaker 4: Lichtman comic universe.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, such a fangirl.
Speaker 4: Okay, the United States government attempted to deport twelve men,
Speaker 4: none of whom are Libyan, to Libya on the seventh
Speaker 4: of May. Right, it got so far as to take
Speaker 4: them to the airport right in San Antonio, in San Antonio, Texas.
Speaker 4: And then thanks to a injunction court injunction, those people
Speaker 4: were not taken to Libya. Those people were in said,
Speaker 4: returned to an intention center. Where as listeners the show
Speaker 4: will now be aware they were informed that they were
Speaker 4: being deported renditioned, how you want to say it, to
Speaker 4: South Sudan. This news broke a couple of days ago, now,
Speaker 4: I think Tuesday, Tuesday afternoon, yeah, yeah, and that was
Speaker 4: when you were able to begin using your or like
Speaker 4: o in aviation knowledge looking for like this this flight
Speaker 4: right that was taking him to Seal Sudan, because at
Speaker 4: the time, yeah, the United States government was claiming that
Speaker 4: the flight was was classified or like a state secret.
Speaker 4: And even in court the judge wasn't aware of the
Speaker 4: flight was in the air on the ground, could it
Speaker 4: turn around? Judging the anthony was going to ask it
Speaker 4: to turn around. So I wonder if you could like
Speaker 4: walk listeners through the time none of this deportation and
Speaker 4: then how you were able to find of millions of
Speaker 4: maybe not million, thousands of planes in the sky the
Speaker 4: one that was taking these people to as it turned
Speaker 4: out to Jubooty.
Speaker 5: Sure.
Speaker 11: Yeah, So I've been a journalist for fifteen years, but
Speaker 11: before that, I was a flight attendant. And you know,
Speaker 11: I'm an av geek, an aviation enthusiast. The shorthand you know,
Speaker 11: the hashtag for that is af geek, And so you know,
Speaker 11: I'm always looking at flight Radar twenty four. It's an
Speaker 11: app where you can track different aircraft. And so when
Speaker 11: I heard that the flight might still be in the air,
Speaker 11: I just thought, I wonder if I can find it,
Speaker 11: so I win. First I went on to flight Radar
Speaker 11: twenty four, and first I looked at all of the
Speaker 11: departures out of San Antonio for like the previous twenty
Speaker 11: four hours since the previous flight that was supposed to
Speaker 11: go to Libya that was stopped, that departed from San Antonio.
Speaker 3: And so I was.
Speaker 11: Looking there and you know, didn't see anything just commercial flights,
Speaker 11: very obviously military flights, and I know they've used military
Speaker 11: aircraft sometimes, but I said, I'm not going to try
Speaker 11: and touch that right now. I want to see if
Speaker 11: it's one of these charter companies, you know, global X,
Speaker 11: a Vello, that have been doing these deportation flights.
Speaker 4: Can you explain those to people, because I don't think
Speaker 4: everyone's aware of those.
Speaker 11: So these are you know, commercial carriers, but they're they're
Speaker 11: contracting with DHS to deport people on their So you know,
Speaker 11: the A three twenty that you take across the country
Speaker 11: is sometimes used to deport people to other countries. And
Speaker 11: the main companies that are doing that right now are
Speaker 11: a Vello, global X. I think Omni does some of
Speaker 11: them sometimes. And I should say there are a lot
Speaker 11: of people, especially on Blue Sky, a lot of av
Speaker 11: geeks who are tracking and cataloging all of these flights.
Speaker 11: I wasn't even aware of that community until I started
Speaker 11: looking for so I didn't see anything, you know, in
Speaker 11: San Antonio, and then I realized, oh, these people had
Speaker 11: been transferred to Port Isabelle in the last few weeks,
Speaker 11: so they would have departed out of Harlingen Airport, which
Speaker 11: is nearby. It's you know, a deep deep South Texas,
Speaker 11: and so I looked at departures out of harling and
Speaker 11: it's a small airport. They have like ten departures a day,
Speaker 11: and it's generally puddle jumpers from one small Texas town
Speaker 11: to another small Texas town, you know. And there was
Speaker 11: one global X flight to Miami the day before. The
Speaker 11: timeline wasn't exactly right, but I know that DHS, you know,
Speaker 11: has been slow to notify attorneys. Yeah, so I thought, well,
Speaker 11: maybe this is the flight, and they just didn't tell
Speaker 11: the attorneys till the next day.
Speaker 1: So then I spent way.
Speaker 11: Too much time looking at all of the departures out
Speaker 11: of Miami to see if there were any Global X flights.
Speaker 11: I saw a few things, but you know, nothing heading
Speaker 11: across the Atlantic. And so at that point, Flight Radar
Speaker 11: twenty four will show you publicly available information on flights.
Speaker 1: It won't show you all flights.
Speaker 11: But there is another you know, for like deep deep
Speaker 11: ab geeks, there's another website called ADSB Exchange, and this
Speaker 11: is a pool of all feeder data all over the
Speaker 11: world of all aircraft in the air that aviation enthusiasts
Speaker 11: maintain themselves. And they will have military flights that aren't
Speaker 11: going to be on Flight Radar twenty four. They also
Speaker 11: have a lot more information about planes that have a
Speaker 11: lad designation, which stands for Limited Aviation Data displayed. I
Speaker 11: don't know how much you want me to explain about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, explain, explain. I think it's interesting for people.
Speaker 11: Sure, So LAD designation is used most often for like
Speaker 11: private jet owners, like celebrities and you know, the ultra rich.
Speaker 11: And basically it means that they have an extra layer
Speaker 11: of privacy for their movements in their private jets. So
Speaker 11: if you try and find a specific private jet on flight.
Speaker 1: Radar twenty four, it won't come up.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 11: So, the the tail of this plane that did the
Speaker 11: Jibouty flight is N five AA eight eight a T.
Speaker 11: If you search for that in flight radar twenty four,
Speaker 11: you won't see it.
Speaker 1: Nothing will come up.
Speaker 11: However, if you know what you're looking for, if you know, like, oh,
Speaker 11: I think the flight is heading to Jibouti right now,
Speaker 11: you can see on flight radar twenty four that there's
Speaker 11: a Gulf Stream five headed to Jabooti right now, but
Speaker 11: the registration information is obscured. Okay, you know it's not
Speaker 11: like that on the ADSB you can you can see it. Yeah,
Speaker 11: your filters have a lot more power. Basically, you know
Speaker 11: your search terms, they're going to go around different designations, okay,
Speaker 11: and so some people hate that. You know, Taylor Swift
Speaker 11: had beef with some guy a couple of years ago
Speaker 11: because she has a LAD designation on her private jet.
Speaker 11: He was using ADSB exchange to post her flights, you know,
Speaker 11: ostensibly for to shame her for her carbon footprint. But
Speaker 11: then she threatened to sue him. And she was like,
Speaker 11: I have stalkers, like I don't want them to know
Speaker 11: when I'm landing in Nashville. You know, not going to
Speaker 11: get into that, but you know, that's basically the LAD
Speaker 11: designation and ADSB doesn't care. And so I went on
Speaker 11: ADSB and I said, well, since I've already seen all
Speaker 11: the publicly available flights, let me just look at LAD flights, okay.
Speaker 1: And so I set that filter.
Speaker 11: And that took it down to a couple hundred planes
Speaker 11: in the air, and I honestly just got lucky. I
Speaker 11: just started clicking on planes because I don't know how
Speaker 11: to search for all departures out of one airport on
Speaker 11: ADSP exchange. I'm sure AV geeks who are better at
Speaker 11: it do, but I just started clicking on planes and
Speaker 11: I clicked I think like the third plane that I
Speaker 11: clicked on had taken off out of Harlingen a couple
Speaker 11: hours earlier and was over the middle of the Atlantic,
Speaker 11: which is not a usual departure for Harlingen.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, that's quite a.
Speaker 11: D and so you know, I posted on Blue Sky
Speaker 11: to the other av geeks who were looking for it.
Speaker 1: I think this might be it.
Speaker 11: You know, it's a private jet with a LAD designation
Speaker 11: that took off from this very obscure airport and is
Speaker 11: traveling internationally. Nothing else really fit the profile, right, so
Speaker 11: we all started looking at it. Another reporter named Jacqueline Sweet.
Speaker 11: You know, I looked up the registration. It's registered to
Speaker 11: a man named Igor Smirnov, which there are a lot
Speaker 11: of Igor Smirnov's.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a pretty common name.
Speaker 11: He's not the Chess guy, he's not the Moldovan guy.
Speaker 11: He appears to have once owned an airline in his
Speaker 11: Pakistan and has been in the US for some time.
Speaker 11: So he has, you know, this private jet. And then
Speaker 11: Jacqueline Sweet looked up that yes, he has DHS contracts.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 1: Then the other thing was.
Speaker 11: I just googled the tail number M five eight eight.
Speaker 1: One of the first things that came up was that
Speaker 1: this was the.
Speaker 11: Private jet that carried Britney Griner home from Russia when
Speaker 11: she had been released in a prisoner swap. Yeah, and
Speaker 11: so that, you know, was the thing where I was like, okay,
Speaker 11: this this plane's been used for like weird government business before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I think I think this might be it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's when I posted.
Speaker 11: Once I realized the Britney Grinder thing, then I posted
Speaker 11: it and other people, other av geeks were saying, yeah,
Speaker 11: I think that might be it, and then you know,
Speaker 11: Jacqueline got more info on the contracts and so this
Speaker 11: is for about two hours we watched it and JJ
Speaker 11: and DC said I think it's about to land in Shannon,
Speaker 11: and you know, soon enough it descended and landed at Shannon.
Speaker 11: So Shannon Airport in Ireland is a frequent refueling stop
Speaker 11: for the US military, and you know that's something that
Speaker 11: a lot of Irish people really fucking hate.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Not a US base, to be clear if people don't.
Speaker 11: Away, Yeah, it's not a US base. These are this
Speaker 11: is US military that are just they're just refueling, but
Speaker 11: they're refueling to you know, do a lot of things
Speaker 11: that the Irish are not okay with Yeah, and so
Speaker 11: there's there's an organization there called Shannon Watch, who you know,
Speaker 11: they're watching all these US activities and you know, pressuring
Speaker 11: the government to stop this. So, you know, I tried
Speaker 11: to email them before the plane even landed. And I
Speaker 11: don't know if it was the user air on my
Speaker 11: end or you know, if I don't know why I
Speaker 11: didn't work, but they didn't get the message.
Speaker 1: I only found that out like half an hour ago.
Speaker 11: Yeah, But so I messaged them, and then I like
Speaker 11: messaged a couple friends in Ireland like.
Speaker 4: Hey, wake up, wake up.
Speaker 1: You didn't call somebody, you know.
Speaker 11: But there's two thirty in the morning. I'm glad my
Speaker 11: friends were asleep. And yeah. So I don't know how
Speaker 11: how much I wanted to get into my personal hedging
Speaker 11: or my journey. But you know, I used to be
Speaker 11: like a neutral, objective journalist at the Washington Post for
Speaker 11: ten years and I left a year and a half ago,
Speaker 11: and I've been enjoying being an opinionated journalist. I've been
Speaker 11: writing a book. But you know, there's a difference between
Speaker 11: being an opinionated journalist and actually interfering in a story. Yeah,
Speaker 11: and so I kind of hedged from an of like
Speaker 11: should I should I do anything else? Should I actively
Speaker 11: participate in trying to stop this flight? You know, am
Speaker 11: I not going to get a columns job someday if
Speaker 11: I do that? Yeah, you know, I'm ashamed to say that.
Speaker 11: But I have to tell the truth. That's what I thought.
Speaker 11: And then I just decided, you know, screw it, I
Speaker 11: have to do the right thing. So I called the
Speaker 11: Shannon Airport police.
Speaker 1: I called the Shannon Garda.
Speaker 11: I called the police, the garden in Ireland and h
Speaker 11: I talked to you know whatever man answered for like
Speaker 11: a minute, and then he was like, let me let me,
Speaker 11: you know, knock you up the chain. And I was
Speaker 11: forwarded to someone else, to a woman who you know,
Speaker 11: she sounded smart, urgent, interested, It sounded like she was
Speaker 11: taking notes. It sounded like she was taking this seriously.
Speaker 11: And I was saying, there's a play with this tail
Speaker 11: number that landed fifteen minutes ago, that may have people
Speaker 11: on board who have been illegally removed from the United States,
Speaker 11: who have not consented to go to their destination, who
Speaker 11: are being sent to South Sudan when they are not
Speaker 11: from Sauth Sudan. You know, and I made clear that, like,
Speaker 11: I don't know that this is the right plane, but
Speaker 11: I'm pretty sure that it is. This plane has been
Speaker 11: used before for US government business. And I said, I
Speaker 11: know that our judges' orders don't matter in your sovereign country,
Speaker 11: but a judge has said this is not allowed, and
Speaker 11: it might be happening. And I don't know what your
Speaker 11: human trafficking laws are like, but you should know that
Speaker 11: if there are human trafficking or kidnapping laws in Ireland
Speaker 11: that might apply to this, like maybe check the plane. Yeah,
Speaker 11: and you know, I didn't record the call and I
Speaker 11: didn't take notes, but I do recall her saying that
Speaker 11: she was trying to send someone to check the plane,
Speaker 11: and she was, you know, taking detailed notes.
Speaker 1: What are their nationalities? How many are there?
Speaker 12: You know?
Speaker 11: And yes, so you know, the call lasted thirteen minutes,
Speaker 11: and then I waited, you know, was talking with the
Speaker 11: other av geeks on Blue Sky who were at this point,
Speaker 11: you know, this is around ten pm.
Speaker 1: It's getting a little late.
Speaker 11: And then yeah, I don't know what happened, but the
Speaker 11: plane taxi to a parking stamp near the terminal for
Speaker 11: a while, and I thought, oh, it's been it's been
Speaker 11: turned off, it's parked for the night. I don't think
Speaker 11: they're going to let him leave. Yeah, and then the
Speaker 11: plane took off. It was two hours after it landed.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it went to JABOUTI where it remains at
Speaker 4: the time of recording. Yeah, it's been raised since you
Speaker 4: first kind of identified this plane, it's been raised. I
Speaker 4: talked to Dallas or like an Irish member of parliament
Speaker 4: raised it today. I saw there was an exchange about it.
Speaker 4: I spoke to Paul Murphy, who's the TV for Dublin's Southwest. Paul,
Speaker 4: get me a statement I'm going to read here. The
Speaker 4: very least Sierrish government must do is to inform the
Speaker 4: US authorities that no more deportation flights are permitted to
Speaker 4: use our airspace, in our airports. We must not facilitate
Speaker 4: this in humane an illegal deportation policy. It does seem
Speaker 4: like even if nothing we're done in this instance, hopefully
Speaker 4: this isn't something that will be able to happen again.
Speaker 4: I know, as you said, people have been upset about
Speaker 4: that use of Shannon. I think they used Knock Airport
Speaker 4: as well, like for a long time because the US
Speaker 4: use them a lot in the in the in its
Speaker 4: war on terror. An Ireland has been a neutral country
Speaker 4: for a long time, and that's a feeling that it
Speaker 4: compromises that among some people. But this raises a really
Speaker 4: interesting question for those of us who are following the deportations, right,
Speaker 4: which is like we've been thinking that it was happening
Speaker 4: on military or commercial flights, like you said, but there's
Speaker 4: this possibility that these smaller planes are being used for deportation,
Speaker 4: and like that's very concerning. I means we could have
Speaker 4: missed things absolutely. It also shows the timeline here is
Speaker 4: extraordinarily rapid, right, Like from the people being informed at
Speaker 4: six pm, I believe it's six pm Pacific. I've been
Speaker 4: spending a lot of time on Pacer this week. Yeah,
Speaker 4: good old Pacer yep, A lot of the money generated
Speaker 4: by the adverts in this show on Pacer. So six
Speaker 4: thirty five Central time and M who is one of
Speaker 4: the Burmese people in this this class action lawsuit, right, So,
Speaker 4: the lawsuit a number of people trying to get attentative
Speaker 4: restraining order against being sent to South Soudan now previously Libya,
Speaker 4: six eighty five Central time. That person's lawyer was told
Speaker 4: that they had an order of removal at nine am Pacific.
Speaker 4: The lawyer had scheduled of video conference, but at eight
Speaker 4: twenty seven Pacific, they were told that that person had
Speaker 4: already been removed. Yeah, so pretty fast. And like perhaps
Speaker 4: that's why they're using these like small can you give
Speaker 4: an idea of like, I guess a lot of people
Speaker 4: weren't a phone on a small aircraft, but these are
Speaker 4: quite like this isn't a usual thing, right to be
Speaker 4: be No.
Speaker 1: This is a luxury jet.
Speaker 11: Yeah, that you know is moonlighting as a prisoner vessel
Speaker 11: for for kidnappers. And I just I'm so struck by
Speaker 11: the dichotomy of the law luxury of this vessel transporting
Speaker 11: them to Hell, to a country where they do not
Speaker 11: speak the language, they have no family or friends, to
Speaker 11: you know, a prison where people are being tortured that
Speaker 11: is about to descend into civil war, may already be
Speaker 11: in civil war. I mean the economy of that is
Speaker 11: so striking to me. Yeah, and so perverse.
Speaker 4: Yeah, perverse is a right word. It is, like it's uh,
Speaker 4: perversely ludicrous. I don't know, Like it's so striking to
Speaker 4: me as well that somebody who has the financial means
Speaker 4: to own a private luxury jet to find themselves around
Speaker 4: the world. Is also profiting of the rendition of people
Speaker 4: who are trying now to plead in Convention against torture. Right,
Speaker 4: they will be tortured if they are flown via luxury
Speaker 4: private jet to South Sudan, and that South Sudanese government
Speaker 4: seems to have stated that it would just return them
Speaker 4: to their countries from which they have withholding in for
Speaker 4: movement in the first spaces. Why the US can't send
Speaker 4: them to their countries.
Speaker 11: Right, That's why the US hasn't done it, right, It's like,
Speaker 11: you know, it's a diplomatic pickle. But like the solution
Speaker 11: is in, we'll just you know, dump them somewhere else.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, and then they have someone else do iday work,
Speaker 4: like send them back. Right. You found these contracts. Do
Speaker 4: you know how much DHS is spending like per flight
Speaker 4: on these things?
Speaker 1: I have no idea.
Speaker 11: I mean that is something that other reporters, I think,
Speaker 11: are you know, going to be better sources of that information.
Speaker 11: I've really just begun tracking these flights, right, you know,
Speaker 11: I like to track flights all the time.
Speaker 1: Just because I have ADHD.
Speaker 11: You know, it's a wonderful activity if you're neurodivergent to
Speaker 11: spend some time on adsp exchange. But but like I said,
Speaker 11: I was just like, I wonder if I can find
Speaker 11: this plane?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I did.
Speaker 11: Yeah, And that has opened up a whole world to
Speaker 11: me of you know, really dedicated people. Tom Cartwright is one,
Speaker 11: and then JJ and DC is another. He wants to
Speaker 11: remain anonymous, got it who have been tracking these planes
Speaker 11: for some time And I'm really inspired by them and
Speaker 11: you know, want to join them and help them.
Speaker 4: We see a number of issues like that. We can
Speaker 4: questions that we can answer with these things, right, the
Speaker 4: United States deporting people to Venezuela, but there are lots
Speaker 4: of eies in Venezuela which are under sanctions, right, So
Speaker 4: like how is it doing that? Who is it paying
Speaker 4: to do that? Like where is our taxpayer money going?
Speaker 4: How much is it costing to achieve this rendition of
Speaker 4: a dozen people? Right who at the current time of
Speaker 4: our recording, which is Thursday afternoon Pacific time, the twenty
Speaker 4: second of May, they go. I just checked the pacer again,
Speaker 4: which is what I do all day now, and Judge
Speaker 4: Murphy's most recent order had clarified that these people would
Speaker 4: have ten days to present their reasonable fear right, so
Speaker 4: to present their reasonable fear and convention against torture proceedings
Speaker 4: that they would be they could face torture right if
Speaker 4: they were sent to these places. If the Department of
Speaker 4: Homeland Security determined that they didn't have credible fear, then
Speaker 4: they would have fifteen days to again petition for reopening
Speaker 4: of their migration case. So that's twenty five days for
Speaker 4: those who accounting that these people will presumably now have
Speaker 4: to be accommodated in Djibouty. The DHS is claiming that
Speaker 4: they can do all these interviews and that one assess
Speaker 4: tate translators, Like one of them speaks Korn, not a
Speaker 4: language that we have. I mean that there are lots
Speaker 4: of Curren speaking people in the United States, but it's
Speaker 4: you know, it's not language that many immigration lawyers speak.
Speaker 4: So I'm guessing there will have to be a translator provided.
Speaker 4: So all that is now happening into Booty and like
Speaker 4: we wouldn't have known that if we hadn't been able
Speaker 4: to track these flights, right, and so it's a very
Speaker 4: interesting way of approaching this. And I think like increasingly
Speaker 4: the government have recently lost a number of fire requests.
Speaker 4: I guess, like public records do not move at the
Speaker 4: same speed as the news cycle does. I file a
Speaker 4: lot of public records requests, most of them I don't
Speaker 4: get anything back.
Speaker 1: The ones that I can take like eight years sometimes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, literally, Yeah, I mean I have public records requests
Speaker 4: that I made under the previous Trump administration that I
Speaker 4: believe are still ongoing. Yeah, it's infuriatingly slowly. You have
Speaker 4: a right to inspect these records, but you don't have
Speaker 4: a right to inspect them in any particular time period.
Speaker 4: And so doing this kind of open source tracking offers
Speaker 4: us a window into this deportation machine that the government
Speaker 4: is building right exactly in cooperation with the super rich,
Speaker 4: like using your taxpayer resources. I would if people are
Speaker 4: interested in doing this, like, how would you suggest they
Speaker 4: kind of get going? They could explain it out there.
Speaker 11: I mean, the first thing I would do is that
Speaker 11: I would follow Tom Cartwright and JJ and DC on
Speaker 11: Blue Sky. Then you know, get the flight Radar twenty
Speaker 11: four app. You can see a lot of the charter
Speaker 11: planes on that app. ADSB Exchange is pretty buggy and
Speaker 11: hard to use. If you don't have any aviation experience
Speaker 11: at all, but you know you can learn. Yeah, and yeah,
Speaker 11: I mean, like I said, if you're neuro divergent, this
Speaker 11: is a terrific activity to just kind of like massage
Speaker 11: your brain and hyper focus, and you know, putting it
Speaker 11: to good purpose to maybe witness or maybe even stop
Speaker 11: some of these activities from happening, you know, would be great.
Speaker 13: Yeah.
Speaker 4: No, I think that's like there are countries which have
Speaker 4: strong legislation that could possibly prevent these you know, these
Speaker 4: either planes transiting their airspace or if they're refueling there
Speaker 4: as you as you said in an Ireland, like perhaps
Speaker 4: prevent these people being renditioned to somewhere where they might
Speaker 4: face torture. And I think it's a really valuable absolutely
Speaker 4: thing to try, Like we should try whatever we can
Speaker 4: right now.
Speaker 11: Yeah, and I mean now that Ireland knows this is happening,
Speaker 11: you know, I don't know what happened with the Garda
Speaker 11: on Tuesday night early Wednesday morning. I don't know if
Speaker 11: they were able to board the plane, if they tried
Speaker 11: to stop it and couldn't.
Speaker 1: I have no idea.
Speaker 11: Yeah, now that they know this is happening, maybe they
Speaker 11: can look a little bit deeper into their laws and
Speaker 11: regulations and find a justification so that if this happens again,
Speaker 11: they can be prepared to respond. You know, I know
Speaker 11: that the Irish are exemplars in human rights, and so
Speaker 11: you know, if anybody is going to do something, it
Speaker 11: might be them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I know. Artie and now camped out at
Speaker 4: the airport wing for the plane to come back, which.
Speaker 12: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 11: I wish they had checked with the av yeks first
Speaker 11: because the plane's not on the way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's not here.
Speaker 1: It hasn't left.
Speaker 4: Look at the court proceedings are going to be three weeks.
Speaker 4: But yeah, yeah, it's great. You've made this an issue there,
Speaker 4: which I think, yeah, it helps, Like all this stuff
Speaker 4: makes a difference.
Speaker 11: I mean, I just I want the Irish people to realize,
Speaker 11: because none of their lawmakers have said it yet, that
Speaker 11: Irish authorities knew when the plane was on the ground
Speaker 11: at Shannon that there were people who were possibly being
Speaker 11: illegally detained on this specific airplane.
Speaker 1: I just want them to know that.
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, you know, And I'm I hear that their
Speaker 11: public information laws are also not great, but the police
Speaker 11: there recorded the call, so there's a recording somewhere if
Speaker 11: they can.
Speaker 4: F right, I guess I can't find anyone who can
Speaker 4: answer the satisfactory the question of like, whose jurisdiction in
Speaker 4: the plane is under?
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, and it really depends too, like was
Speaker 11: the plane parked in the international transit area? Was it
Speaker 11: in a place where you know the guard I didn't
Speaker 11: even have authority.
Speaker 1: I have no idea, right you know?
Speaker 4: Yeah, these are real questions that we can now ask
Speaker 4: because we know right that it was there, and I
Speaker 4: think that's very valuable. Gillian, Where can people follow your work? Said?
Speaker 4: You published this on your ghost newsletter?
Speaker 5: First?
Speaker 11: Right, Yeah, I'm writing a book, so I post extremely sporadically,
Speaker 11: but I do have a ghost newsletter. It's hard, g
Speaker 11: History because it's hard. G Gillian har Ghistory dot ghost
Speaker 11: dot io. And then I'm on Blue Sky at g Brackhill.
Speaker 5: Nice.
Speaker 4: Do you I plug your book where you have the opportunity.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's not like a you know, pre
Speaker 1: order links.
Speaker 11: I'm very much still writing it, but you know, my
Speaker 11: agent will be mad at me for saying this. The
Speaker 11: working title is people that didn't know what was wrong
Speaker 11: back then? The lie at the heart of American history.
Speaker 4: I will look forward to reading that.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks for having me, James. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us. Hi everyone, and welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: It's me James today and I'm joined once again by
Speaker 4: Kirsten Zitlao. We've heard from her before. She's an immigration
Speaker 4: lawyer who takes asylum cases, and we're going to talk
Speaker 4: about the asylum system or I guess what's left of it. Today.
Speaker 4: Kirsten is representing somebody I met, the Darien gap Primrose,
Speaker 4: who you've heard from before. So we're going to talk
Speaker 4: about that case, and then we're going to talk a
Speaker 4: little bit about ice detentions inside immigration court. Welcome to
Speaker 4: the show.
Speaker 14: Thank you, James. It's good to be here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for thanks for coming. I know you're extremely busy.
Speaker 4: Can you explain to us, like the asylum system is
Speaker 4: essentially coming to an end? Right we are not getting
Speaker 4: new asylum cases, Like what is the situation for people
Speaker 4: in the asylum system right now?
Speaker 15: Yes, that's a correct statement, James. So there are no
Speaker 15: new asylum cases. In other words, people who cross at
Speaker 15: the southern border are now detained, only to be removed
Speaker 15: immediately basically or as soon as possible, under what's called
Speaker 15: two twelve F authority.
Speaker 14: It's under the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Speaker 15: Trump has used this authority, which basically broadly says that
Speaker 15: if the President finds a certain class of immigrants or
Speaker 15: the entry of immigrants would be detrimental to the interests
Speaker 15: of the United States, they may, by proclamation, you know,
Speaker 15: spend all entry have said immigrants. So that was the
Speaker 15: purpose and the effect of the executive order discussing the
Speaker 15: invasion at the border, and all the other executive orders
Speaker 15: discussing invasions and criminal aspects such as cartels and trender ragua,
Speaker 15: which we all know now is the justification for alleged
Speaker 15: justification for just shutting it down at the border. So
Speaker 15: whereas people used to get credible fear interviews or were
Speaker 15: paroled into the United States to be allowed to fight
Speaker 15: an asylum case, none of that is happening anymore. And
Speaker 15: people are, if anything, only screened for what's called Convention
Speaker 15: against Torture screenings to just determine, like, hey, are they
Speaker 15: going to be tortured by their government or with the
Speaker 15: acquiescence of their government if they're returned to their home country.
Speaker 15: But even then they are not allowed to remain in
Speaker 15: the United States or fight any relief in the United States.
Speaker 15: That just means that they will be deported to a
Speaker 15: third country. So that was the situation. And like when
Speaker 15: we saw the Iranians sitting in the hotel room and Panama,
Speaker 15: that's what happened there most likely. So that's the situation
Speaker 15: at the southern border. Whoever is still in the United States,
Speaker 15: you know, who came in before an operation day, is
Speaker 15: still allowed to fight their case as of now, but
Speaker 15: there are no new asylum cases essentially, right.
Speaker 4: So for those people fighting their case, the asylum system
Speaker 4: was already an uphill battle, right, and it became harder
Speaker 4: after Biden's asylum ban. It was already harder after title
Speaker 4: forty two. Like people who listened to the show would
Speaker 4: have known about the people who crushed in twenty twenty three,
Speaker 4: and of course they would have followed those people who
Speaker 4: I'm in the Darian Gap, some of whom very few
Speaker 4: of whom crushed before January. I literally one I believe
Speaker 4: that I'm aware of. Can you explain what the asylum
Speaker 4: system is like for those people now?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 15: So I think the biggest two factors affecting asylum cases
Speaker 15: these days is what you just referred to, which is
Speaker 15: the asylum called the circumvention against Lawful Pathways that barred
Speaker 15: people essentially from asylum if they did not use CBP
Speaker 15: one the application to apply for an appointment, which of
Speaker 15: course only allowed I think fifteen hundred a day or
Speaker 15: something absurd, forcing most people to cross unlawfully. So that's
Speaker 15: still very much in place. The litigation has been stalled forever.
Speaker 15: There's no hope of you know, I don't think there's
Speaker 15: no movement on that. I haven't seen or heard anything,
Speaker 15: most likely intentionally because when Trump did a similar ban,
Speaker 15: it was overturned immediately. So this is like a new
Speaker 15: strategy that we're seeing where things are just lagging in court.
Speaker 15: You know, for example, just a quick side detour the
Speaker 15: birthright citizenship issue got up to the Supreme Court real quick,
Speaker 15: whereas the asylum issue, meaning the border shut down to asylum,
Speaker 15: is still languishing somewhere before I think even just a
Speaker 15: federal district, I just is not even in any appeal
Speaker 15: court yet. So this is all I think, it's strategic,
Speaker 15: So that circumvention against Lawful Pathways ban is still very
Speaker 15: much heediment. You know, we all of course argue that
Speaker 15: every migrant in Mexico was in danger and thus qualifies
Speaker 15: for the exception to the CLP that their life was
Speaker 15: in danger and they couldn't afford to wait the many
Speaker 15: many months for the CBP one appointment.
Speaker 14: But judges it's been met with mixed reviews. They generally like.
Speaker 15: To see like somebody basically near death for the exception
Speaker 15: to apply. And of course the immigration bar argues that
Speaker 15: all migrants are basically under threat of death. I mean,
Speaker 15: any any cartel or even immigration official contact in Mexico
Speaker 15: could have been a death sentence very easily, as we
Speaker 15: all know. Yeah, so that's a big thing affecting. The
Speaker 15: latest thing that's also being implemented as a result of
Speaker 15: this cartel terrorist organization designation is you know where it's
Speaker 15: not just the cartels, is MS thirteen and ten deo ragua,
Speaker 15: is that there's a what's called a trig bar that's
Speaker 15: applied then also to asylum and the bar is basically
Speaker 15: about materials port of any of these groups, but it's
Speaker 15: construed to an absurd degree where even if you made
Speaker 15: a bowl of food for Samaras under duress or you
Speaker 15: made payment because your kid was about to be killed, right,
Speaker 15: that's considered material support, and you're barred from asylum.
Speaker 4: Jeez, I wondered if they would do that.
Speaker 15: Yeah, so we're seeing that too. Other than that, I mean,
Speaker 15: I have been fortunate to win asylum for folks under
Speaker 15: Trump two point zero.
Speaker 14: I mean, I don't know how long.
Speaker 15: That'll still last, but judges are still you know, granting cases.
Speaker 15: So I'm glad to see that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 15: So that's generally what it's looked like these past four
Speaker 15: months for Assil's.
Speaker 4: Okay, And yeah, I think it's really important that we do.
Speaker 4: There are still possible, like victories to be had within
Speaker 4: the court system, and asylum is one of the places where,
Speaker 4: like there's no more getting me on the train. I
Speaker 4: guess like the people who are on the train now
Speaker 4: we can and people should if they have the financial means,
Speaker 4: and we'll talk about how they can do that later.
Speaker 4: People should support those people because there's no one else
Speaker 4: who who can go through that system, and like, there
Speaker 4: are people who have gone through horrific things to get
Speaker 4: here and horrific things in the places that they came from.
Speaker 4: And even if it's not everyone, we would like to
Speaker 4: keep safe. We should do everything we can to keep
Speaker 4: those people safe.
Speaker 15: One hundred percent, you know, just to say, I mean
Speaker 15: and funding somebody's legal fees, I mean an attorney makes
Speaker 15: all the difference in navigating these types of issues that
Speaker 15: I just talked about and other issues and presenting your case.
Speaker 15: I mean, asylum cases are still incredibly difficult to win,
Speaker 15: and so representation of council is often key.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that the rates of success people who
Speaker 4: don't have counsel are dramatically lower. I haven't lived on
Speaker 4: Track recently, but you can normally find that on the
Speaker 4: I think Track is no longer in the University of Syracuse,
Speaker 4: but it did some place where you can find information statistics.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about one of those cases, if that's okay.
Speaker 4: And obviously you know we won't intervene in anyone's prihapsy
Speaker 4: any more than we have to. But like I want
Speaker 4: to talk about Primrose. Primrose is Zimbabwean woman who I
Speaker 4: met in Bo when I was in the Darien Gap
Speaker 4: reporting on my series. People heard from her in the series.
Speaker 13: Even me. I was crying myself. I was like, I
Speaker 13: want to just put myself in the water. Then I
Speaker 13: can just go what the genuine tough really really tough,
Speaker 13: the mountain, the stones, the river. It's not easy at all.
Speaker 13: It's it's not a very I don't even recommended someone
Speaker 13: to say you use that and give no. And even myself,
Speaker 13: I did know about it. Yeah, I was regretting myself.
Speaker 13: I was crying. I was like, God, I don't know
Speaker 13: my family and my family they don't know where I
Speaker 13: am right now.
Speaker 4: But I make it yeah, I make it safe.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 4: She is now in the asylum process, right, can you
Speaker 4: explain a little bit about like where she is in
Speaker 4: the process. And I will eventually do a scripted series
Speaker 4: on this, but like I guess, can we get an
Speaker 4: update on her situation and how it's progressing.
Speaker 14: Absolutely, so.
Speaker 15: I came into the case about I want to say,
Speaker 15: a month or two ago, she had somebody supporting her,
Speaker 15: a friend living in Texas, and that situation, a living
Speaker 15: situation has changed, I believe, which is also not the
Speaker 15: worst things.
Speaker 14: But she will be moving.
Speaker 15: With a friend to southern California or moving in with
Speaker 15: a friend brother. But just this situation is very different
Speaker 15: in Texas and Louisiana and Mississippi and those types of states,
Speaker 15: markedly so, and her case is a good example of that.
Speaker 15: And there's a reason that people like mamou Khalil and
Speaker 15: many others are sent to detention centers in that area
Speaker 15: because it's in the Fifth Circuit, first of all, which
Speaker 15: is widely renowned to be not a favorable circuit court
Speaker 15: of appeals to immigrants. Yeah, but more so than that,
Speaker 15: even the judges themselves are very different from what we
Speaker 15: would encounter in California, for example. So my first encounter
Speaker 15: with the judge was, you know, this is all very
Speaker 15: I submitted a motion to appear for her. She had
Speaker 15: a master calendar hearing in June. I submitted a motion
Speaker 15: to appear for that telephonically, explaining I was representing her
Speaker 15: at lower no cost, you know, whatever funds could be raised,
Speaker 15: and could I please appear for a status it's a
Speaker 15: status type conference telephonically, And that motion was met with
Speaker 15: a really strange response. I don't to this day, I
Speaker 15: don't really know exactly. It was sort of approved, but
Speaker 15: then moot because eventually a final court hearing was set.
Speaker 14: So that's where we're at right now.
Speaker 15: She has a final court next year, in about a
Speaker 15: year and a couple months, but in ruling on my
Speaker 15: WebEx motion, I was emailed the order of the judge
Speaker 15: along with a notice that Permers should self deport. So
Speaker 15: judges are sending out these notices with routine other orders
Speaker 15: in cases where the immigrant has council is fighting their case. Yeah,
Speaker 15: it's obvious they're fighting their case Jesus And yeah. So
Speaker 15: it's one of the things where you just feel very
Speaker 15: strongly this administration's influence.
Speaker 4: Are they obliged to do that or is that a
Speaker 4: choice that the judge's making.
Speaker 14: Not at all, and in fact it's completely inappropriate.
Speaker 15: So all of us are okay. The immigration bar is
Speaker 15: taking a different approach to it. You know, some are
Speaker 15: filing motions to recuse, telling the judges, hey, you need
Speaker 15: to recuse yourself. You're a non neutral judge. To send
Speaker 15: this out in the middle of the case is absurd.
Speaker 15: It's a due process violation. They're entitled to a neutral judge. Yeah.
Speaker 15: I think my approach would be more one of playing dumb,
Speaker 15: because often this has happened. The system, if you will,
Speaker 15: of ECASS, the electronics system that we use for court
Speaker 15: immigration filing systems that Elon Musk briefly had access to
Speaker 15: or whatever was going on there. But anyways, I digress,
Speaker 15: you know, will send out automatic notices with the emails
Speaker 15: with the judges orders. So my approach, I think will
Speaker 15: be to give the judges the benefit of the doubt
Speaker 15: and ask them if this was an electronic notice and
Speaker 15: if they say no, then I've gotten it on the record,
Speaker 15: and if they deny the case, I have that in
Speaker 15: there for the appeal. But yeah, it's happening all over
Speaker 15: the country with all sorts of different judges, and it's
Speaker 15: definitely something that we're grappling with right now.
Speaker 14: And it's just it's.
Speaker 15: Very ballsy for a judge to say, hey, leave the
Speaker 15: country and oh, by the way, I'm a neutral arbiter.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, what's the point of having the judge
Speaker 4: or having the whole process right if then they're going
Speaker 4: to declare this clear bias.
Speaker 14: Yeah, it's absurd.
Speaker 15: I mean, it's you know, I mean, it's such a
Speaker 15: violation of due process rights. And I think I know
Speaker 15: everybody in this country now knows the importance of due process,
Speaker 15: whereas before only attorneys through that term around. But no,
Speaker 15: I mean, this stuff really matters, you know. Yeah, And
Speaker 15: then also another thing that happened in Primosa's case is
Speaker 15: that when you have a work permit clock right, which
Speaker 15: is another absurd thing for assiles that once they file
Speaker 15: their asylum application, they have to wait one hundred and
Speaker 15: fifty days before they can apply for a work permit.
Speaker 15: And of course they're expected to be independently wealthy during
Speaker 15: those five months or you know, or star o or
Speaker 15: I don't know what they're expected to do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, rely on the jeder rusty brothers.
Speaker 14: Like exactly.
Speaker 15: So if you do something like try to change venue
Speaker 15: or a motion to continue, if you do something in
Speaker 15: your case that the judge perceives as not moving the
Speaker 15: case along and rather like kind of trying to stall
Speaker 15: it or possibly pausing it or slow it down, the
Speaker 15: judge will stop the work permit clock the days and
Speaker 15: it's a whole thing. So Primroses was stopped because the
Speaker 15: judge wanted her to get an attorney. So usually when
Speaker 15: the case is set for a final hearing, that code
Speaker 15: adjournment code they call it. I know from we have
Speaker 15: the access to the codes and what stops the clock
Speaker 15: and what doesn't, and it always restarts the clock because
Speaker 15: you move your case along because you're setting it for trial.
Speaker 15: It's you know, obviously moving your case along hers was
Speaker 15: not restarted for whatever reason, and my only remedy would
Speaker 15: be to write some court administrator who may or may
Speaker 15: not ever respond. I can't even go to the judge
Speaker 15: about this, you know, it's it's absurd. So that's just
Speaker 15: the situation that one assilie is one asylum seeker is
Speaker 15: dealing with in Texas. So you can only imagine what
Speaker 15: goes on in detentions that, you know, detained cases in
Speaker 15: those states.
Speaker 4: Yeah, people who don't have counsel, like getting that self deportation.
Speaker 4: If you don't have counsel, like you could assume that
Speaker 4: you are just obliged to leave, like, yeah, that your
Speaker 4: your process is.
Speaker 15: Over one hundred percent, And there's no legal basis for
Speaker 15: the judge to be issuing that. In fact, it's completely
Speaker 15: unlawful to be issuing something like that at the beginning
Speaker 15: of the case, at the end of the case, and
Speaker 15: at the beginning. The judge does have to give certain advisals,
Speaker 15: but telling somebody to self deport is never an advisal
Speaker 15: that should be given under the law.
Speaker 4: Ever, right, Yeah, like it kind of nullifies the whole system.
Speaker 15: And plus I should mention real quick that it's disingenuous
Speaker 15: and harmful and that with these you know, this administration
Speaker 15: on purpose isn't telling people with the thousand dollars, take
Speaker 15: a thousand dollars in self deport and you know, will
Speaker 15: pay for your flight and all this stuff. But they're
Speaker 15: not telling people is that when you leave, you're then
Speaker 15: subject to a deportation order and that comes with a
Speaker 15: ten year bar. This is not mentioned. And that's a
Speaker 15: big deal.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I mean it seems even like I think
Speaker 4: the executive order said permanently leave the United States, right.
Speaker 15: Well, it did, and then but then they switch tactics
Speaker 15: a little bit with the app to self support, saying like,
Speaker 15: you know, leave now, leave now so you have a
Speaker 15: chance to come back later or something like that. Right,
Speaker 15: but you know without mentioning that, hey, you no, you're
Speaker 15: barred from the United States for ten years and if
Speaker 15: you ever return unlawfully, then you're a subject to a
Speaker 15: whole series of you know. I mean, it's just there's
Speaker 15: all these warnings that need to come with the deportation
Speaker 15: order that are strategically left out of all the administration's
Speaker 15: latest messaging on this topic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's it's pretty bad. Let's take a break for
Speaker 4: advertisements here and then we'll come back. All right, We
Speaker 4: are back, and we've spoken about these like self deportation
Speaker 4: orders right for other people who have entered more recently, right,
Speaker 4: entered within the last two years. This has been happening
Speaker 4: we're recording on the twenty second for the last two
Speaker 4: days now. It seems like ICE is dismissing the cases
Speaker 4: against them and then detaining them directly in court, if
Speaker 4: I'm correctly informed.
Speaker 15: Yes, So this has been happening periodically throughout the past
Speaker 15: four months, but in the past few days, like this week,
Speaker 15: it's been dramatically ramped up. Like right now as we're
Speaker 15: recording this, ICE is arresting people in the downtown San
Speaker 15: Diego court and also courts throughout the country. It's been
Speaker 15: reported everywhere, happening widely this week. And this is another
Speaker 15: thing the administration said they were going to do and
Speaker 15: is doing. I mean, you know, they're doing what they
Speaker 15: said they were going to do. Yeah, and it's to
Speaker 15: use what's called two thirty five authority. More broadly so,
Speaker 15: INA Section two thirty five applies to people who entered
Speaker 15: within less than two years, like you said, and they
Speaker 15: can be then said to what's called expedited removal. That
Speaker 15: means that they have to take a credible fear interview
Speaker 15: and be detained, and that they only get to fight
Speaker 15: a case if they pass their credible fear interview, and
Speaker 15: then they do not qualify for an immigration judge bond,
Speaker 15: So they only get out if ICE lets them out,
Speaker 15: which of course I is letting nobody out. So the
Speaker 15: administration wants to have people detained under this authority, this
Speaker 15: two thirty five authority as much as possible, to have
Speaker 15: them have to fight their case detained and either lose
Speaker 15: the will to do so and or not be able
Speaker 15: to afford an attorney, because detained cases move along a
Speaker 15: lot quicker and are very costly as well for that reason.
Speaker 15: So what they're doing is anybody who was here two
Speaker 15: years or less but was parolled in so they're in
Speaker 15: the regular immigration court proceedings they got out there under
Speaker 15: two forty proceedings, that's called so DHS attorneys in court
Speaker 15: are terminating those proceedings. They're asking the judge to terminate
Speaker 15: the two forty proceedings, so then that case is closed,
Speaker 15: and then they immediately restart a case under section two
Speaker 15: thirty five. And at the second they do that, the
Speaker 15: person is subject to mandatory detention. And Ice is right
Speaker 15: there in the courthouse to arrest them and detain them.
Speaker 4: Jesus, yeah, I thought Ice couldn't arrest people in California.
Speaker 4: Is that California state courts, no federal courts which are
Speaker 4: in California.
Speaker 15: I believe so, And colleagues and I have been talking
Speaker 15: about this. I haven't researched it thoroughly, but I think
Speaker 15: also the nature of these proceedings, like the two thirty
Speaker 15: five proceeding, like you are mandatory detention, like you okay,
Speaker 15: you were taken into custody. It's as if you just
Speaker 15: crossed the border and you know, are taken in a custody.
Speaker 15: It's treated like that type of situation, like no warrant
Speaker 15: is necessary.
Speaker 14: I don't believe you.
Speaker 4: Know, oh okay, right, yeah, so they could. They have
Speaker 4: very broad authority to detain people anywhere. That makes sense exactly.
Speaker 5: So.
Speaker 15: The real issue here is the ethical I mean a
Speaker 15: lot of us are grappling with this and of course
Speaker 15: fiercely opposing these motions in that the justification that the
Speaker 15: DHS attorneys are attempting to use is that circumstances have
Speaker 15: materially changed since the issuance of their initial case that
Speaker 15: they're in now, which of course is not the.
Speaker 4: Case, right, whose circumstances.
Speaker 15: Exactly exactly, Like the rise of fascism doesn't constitute a
Speaker 15: change circumstance. Yeah, So it's just there's no, there's no
Speaker 15: basis for this motion. And secondly, the only basis, like,
Speaker 15: there's zero justification for this other than filling detention centers,
Speaker 15: lining cour Civic and Geogroup's pockets. Yeah, and intentionally prejudicing
Speaker 15: an immigrant to have to fight their case attained. I
Speaker 15: mean right, there's no there's no good or legitimate justification
Speaker 15: for this period the end, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and fighting it detained will be a lot harder.
Speaker 4: They will be obviously in like terrible situation they are,
Speaker 4: as we've covered before, often moved to a different state
Speaker 4: from their council. Will make it a lot harder for
Speaker 4: them if they choose to go that route. I'm guessing
Speaker 4: that ICE is hoping that people won't fight and will
Speaker 4: just DHS is hoping the people will choose not to fight.
Speaker 15: Percent that's the whole point is this full Administration's the
Speaker 15: messaging and their actions are all about forcing people, breaking
Speaker 15: people's spirits, and forcing them into a situation where they
Speaker 15: feel their only option is to self deport.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 15: It is heartbreaking, it's very sick. Yeah, it's it's very disturbing.
Speaker 15: It's very very different from Trump one point zero.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's worth sort of focusing in on
Speaker 4: that this is a completely distinct and much more radical
Speaker 4: disassembling of the asylum system as we know it.
Speaker 14: Absolutely.
Speaker 15: I mean, I think we can all agree or disagree
Speaker 15: as far as how we feel about the past four
Speaker 15: months and what has happened, but I think everybody can
Speaker 15: agree the pace at which it has happened is extremely concerning.
Speaker 4: Right, we have four months into four years, and we
Speaker 4: have seen like a constitutional crisis, like a full blown
Speaker 4: defiance of courts. We at the day we're recording, the
Speaker 4: Trump administration is attempting to deport people to South Sudan,
Speaker 4: many of whom eleven of twelve of whom are not
Speaker 4: South Sudanese.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: I guess from what I understand, their attempt at giving
Speaker 4: those people a credible fear screening was that they didn't
Speaker 4: hear them shouting from the cells they were detained in
Speaker 4: that they were afraid of being tortured.
Speaker 15: Yeah, they're supposed to give them opportunity to be heard,
Speaker 15: essentially and give notice of this third country that they're
Speaker 15: going to be deported to. That nobody and no judge
Speaker 15: is ever considered whether they have a fear or if
Speaker 15: they would be in danger or deported to this country. Right,
Speaker 15: So again, this is a due process situation where hey,
Speaker 15: before you can be sent to some random country, especially
Speaker 15: South Sudan, maybe you should be given an opportunity to
Speaker 15: present why you have a fear or that something bad
Speaker 15: might happen to you over there to a judge. And
Speaker 15: so this was recently ordered. I believe the case is
Speaker 15: called DBD versus DHS. Was what stopped the Libya situation
Speaker 15: from happening, where yeah, judge said, this is exactly what
Speaker 15: needs to occur. These people need to be give you
Speaker 15: given real notice, not this whatever has been had, you know,
Speaker 15: and and an opportunity to be heard. And then yeah,
Speaker 15: and they immediately thereafter attempted to as you said, or
Speaker 15: I think I don't know if they actually accomplished it
Speaker 15: with South Sudan.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my understanding is they are in a country which
Speaker 4: is neither the United States nor South Sudan on an
Speaker 4: aircraft at this time, and DHS is arguing that they
Speaker 4: can do their credible fear screenings there on the aircraft.
Speaker 4: I don't know how they've planned together people privacy, translation,
Speaker 4: access to council. I just looked on court listener right
Speaker 4: before we recorded, and Judge Murphy clarified Massachusetts District Court
Speaker 4: judge that ten days would be the amount of time
Speaker 4: that they would need to assert a credible fear and
Speaker 4: then if DHS determined that they didn't have credible fear,
Speaker 4: they would then have fifteen days to ask for the
Speaker 4: reopening of their case. TBD. Is the United States going
Speaker 4: to like somehow accommodate them in where they are. People
Speaker 4: are speculating they're in jow Booty, which is the largest
Speaker 4: US military base in the continent of Africa and close
Speaker 4: to South Sudan, And so if that's the case, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't know how they will get due process. We
Speaker 4: will find out if they will get due process.
Speaker 15: I guess yeah, they probably won't, but will be told
Speaker 15: that they did, or will be or will be told
Speaker 15: that they were criminals in the first place, which is
Speaker 15: the other theme of this administration, right with the Alien
Speaker 15: Enemies Act, which has basically been put on pause by
Speaker 15: a number of Satan judges who have said, there's no invasion,
Speaker 15: there's no war.
Speaker 14: This is absurd, This just flat out doesn't apply.
Speaker 15: And I have to say that the immigration bar is
Speaker 15: very I think not just the immigration bar, I think
Speaker 15: all of us are very frustrated that the Supreme Court
Speaker 15: has not yet come out with a definitive substance of
Speaker 15: ruling on this because, for the people who don't know,
Speaker 15: the Alien Enemies Act allows the administration to circumvent the
Speaker 15: i NA, which is the whole immigration court system, and
Speaker 15: immediately to port supposed criminals who were invading the country.
Speaker 15: I mean, we all know this with the Venezuelans who
Speaker 15: are accused of being trended Aragua just for having tattoos,
Speaker 15: and so that is to me and I think all
Speaker 15: of us the biggest threat to just be able to
Speaker 15: put somebody on a plane to another country and in
Speaker 15: a prison in another country, as we've seen the Sea cot.
Speaker 14: In El Salvador.
Speaker 15: I mean, we need our Supreme Court to speak on this,
Speaker 15: then we need it quickly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like if we no longer have habeas. It's a
Speaker 4: frontal assault on the Bill of rights, like most of them.
Speaker 15: And there's so many assaults on the Bill of rights.
Speaker 15: And then we need our Supreme Court to really to
Speaker 15: step up. And I think I'm not the only one
Speaker 15: who's extremely frustrated by that, because we're in crisis and
Speaker 15: as we've seen, it's fallen on courts and lawyers and
Speaker 15: judges to try to defend the semblance of democracy in
Speaker 15: this country.
Speaker 14: But the highest court in the land needs to help
Speaker 14: out soon.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and like this is where like the Reba
Speaker 4: meets the road right for like maintaining people's basic rights,
Speaker 4: dignity and yeah, the right not to be sent to
Speaker 4: a labor camp in El Salvador or you know, seuth
Speaker 4: Sudana country, which is rapidly descending into conflict. Again, I
Speaker 4: thought the government was barrel bombing this week.
Speaker 15: Well, and just real quick, another note on the Supreme
Speaker 15: Court is that they're they're also concerning I mean, as
Speaker 15: we know, there's a lot of Trump appointees there and
Speaker 15: so I mean it's not even that that's the answer,
Speaker 15: it's just we're you know, but we need answers more
Speaker 15: quickly than what they're they're giving us. And it's just
Speaker 15: given the rate that this administration is working at, I
Speaker 15: don't know that they will if they ever get the
Speaker 15: case for the asylum ban at the border, would even
Speaker 15: overturn that because historically they've sort of supported his two
Speaker 15: twelve F powers. So I'm not saying that's the answer
Speaker 15: to everything, but it's definitely frustrating to not have basic
Speaker 15: things yeah already decided, like the use of the alien
Speaker 15: enemy that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like just notes in where we're at, Like when
Speaker 4: you know people are trying in good faith to move
Speaker 4: forward with the legal processes that they have spent their
Speaker 4: entire life savings on to get here and do the
Speaker 4: right quote unquote the right way. You're still fighting a
Speaker 4: number of asylum cases, as we said before the call,
Speaker 4: like you probably won't be forever, right Like, at some
Speaker 4: point there's just not going to be any more asylum cases.
Speaker 4: I know that you're accepting donations. I think through venmo
Speaker 4: On behalf of Primrose, that will be sure to link
Speaker 4: to that mo account in the description of this show,
Speaker 4: so people can donate if they'd like to. Now it's
Speaker 4: the time to do it right, It's not like this
Speaker 4: is going to be an ongoing thing. Like if people
Speaker 4: don't help now, then there won't be migrants to support
Speaker 4: or assylies to support later. So like, how can people
Speaker 4: materially support maybe in other ways, right, if they're like
Speaker 4: on hard times and have the financial resources, what else
Speaker 4: can people do to I just to make this a
Speaker 4: little bit less cruel to some people who are among
Speaker 4: the most unfortunate people on the planet.
Speaker 15: Often, I think even mental and emotional support for the
Speaker 15: immigrants in your life, I think is something that is
Speaker 15: underestimated because speaking as a very privileged white woman attorney
Speaker 15: US citizen, this has taken a tremendous toll on me,
Speaker 15: and the mental toll that has taken on the actual
Speaker 15: undocumented community and a siles. This messaging is so harmful
Speaker 15: and so disgusting that I think I would just caution
Speaker 15: people to not underestimate the power of human kindness to
Speaker 15: those already in your life and just empowering them distributing
Speaker 15: Know your Rights cards and information that still matters. But
Speaker 15: also I think the people who are, as we've been discussing,
Speaker 15: going to be at the most disadvant managed in terms
Speaker 15: of being able to keep up morale are these people
Speaker 15: who are going to be mandatorily detained. So, in terms
Speaker 15: of what we were talking about, I believe before we
Speaker 15: started recording, reaching out to any organizations I know in
Speaker 15: San Diego there's detention resistance, or even reaching out to
Speaker 15: the detention center that's near you to be able to
Speaker 15: determine how you can send a letter, how you can
Speaker 15: put money on somebody's books so that they can have
Speaker 15: phone calls with their family or phone calls with you
Speaker 15: even I think these types of things are key in
Speaker 15: light of the administration's clear messaging that immigrants are very
Speaker 15: much unwanted and criminals. So I think that's where I
Speaker 15: would come at this from. If you cannot donate, again,
Speaker 15: like we were talking, if you have a few dollars
Speaker 15: to spare, I mean, if everybody has a few dollars
Speaker 15: to spare, there is a finite number like we were
Speaker 15: saying of asylum cases left, like for Roses. So if
Speaker 15: people can spare a few dollars here or there whenever
Speaker 15: they can, it does make the difference.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it does, and it shows that like even
Speaker 4: if the government doesn't want you to hear a lot
Speaker 4: of people want you to be protected. We want you
Speaker 4: to be safe. Like, yeah, the mental damage it does,
Speaker 4: I think it's hard to overstate. Like I was talking,
Speaker 4: I remember to a young woman Ino and like she
Speaker 4: was the only surviving member of her family. The government
Speaker 4: had killed everyone, and so she came to the US
Speaker 4: right to be safe, and like, now the government is
Speaker 4: coming after her in addition to the trauma she already
Speaker 4: has from watching her entire family die. Like, now the
Speaker 4: most powerful government in the world is coming after you.
Speaker 4: Like I can't imagine how that feels.
Speaker 14: That's a very good point.
Speaker 15: I mean, yeah, people are coming already traumatized, only to
Speaker 15: be further traumatized by this administration in the system. And yes,
Speaker 15: I mean emotional and mental and any kind of support
Speaker 15: is not to be underestimated in the slightest during these times.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like have people over for dinner if you can,
Speaker 4: or yet like the detention center and put money on
Speaker 4: someone's commissary, Like just showing people that they're welcome is important.
Speaker 4: Like I know a lot of the migrants. Like if
Speaker 4: I look at my phone right now, in the time
Speaker 4: we've been recording one of the migrants, I meant that
Speaker 4: Darien Gap will probably have texted me. They're in Mexico, right,
Speaker 4: and they just want the world to know about the situation.
Speaker 4: They know they can't come to the US anymore. But
Speaker 4: sometimes people will say, I guess the Americans don't want
Speaker 4: u s anymore, and like that breaks my heart because
Speaker 4: I think most people, if they knew these people's circumstances, right,
Speaker 4: Like hundreds of people have reached out to me since
Speaker 4: the Darien Gap stuff to ask how they can help,
Speaker 4: and like most people do want those people to be
Speaker 4: their neighbors, and it breaks my heart that they think
Speaker 4: that we don't want them, that we would rather leave
Speaker 4: them to die wherever they're at. Like it's genuinely really
Speaker 4: horrible for me to think of that. So yeah, I
Speaker 4: would really encourage anyone listening if you can, to do what.
Speaker 15: You can, absolutely and just remembering that again, these asylum
Speaker 15: cases are finite. So if you know any asylum seeker
Speaker 15: or can support any asylum seeker right now, they made
Speaker 15: it in Let's give them their best shot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like we can still help those people,
Speaker 4: and while we can, we should absolutely. Yeah, Well, thank
Speaker 4: you so much for joining us. We do appreciate it.
Speaker 4: I know that your time is very valuable and you're
Speaker 4: really busy right now, so we really appreciate your time.
Speaker 4: You're always welcome back, and if there's anything else you'd
Speaker 4: like to say before we finish.
Speaker 14: Up, yeah, thank you, James.
Speaker 15: I think the only thing I just want to emphasize
Speaker 15: is that, you know, from the standpoint of immigration attorneys
Speaker 15: like I feel that we're obviously a subject of an
Speaker 15: executive order. And you know, big law firms are being
Speaker 15: extorted by the administration to represent causes that the administration
Speaker 15: believes in and not robono immigration work, and so forth
Speaker 15: and so on.
Speaker 14: So it's not like too many of us have.
Speaker 15: Been personally attacked, although you know judges have been arrested,
Speaker 15: even judges for just hiring an immigrant to do work
Speaker 15: around the house.
Speaker 5: So it is.
Speaker 15: It is a scary time to be practicing immigration law,
Speaker 15: but unfortunate. I do see there being a time when
Speaker 15: it won't happen. I mean, I see the writing on
Speaker 15: the wall where I will not be able to continue
Speaker 15: mentally and or economically, because a side effect of all this,
Speaker 15: and a very intentional side effect, is to make it
Speaker 15: so that we can't do much for people anymore, and
Speaker 15: or they can't afford us, or there's not people here
Speaker 15: to do anything for because their spirit was broken, or
Speaker 15: their finances or all of the above and they had
Speaker 15: to leave. So it is a very intense time. But
Speaker 15: I came from different areas of law. I've only been
Speaker 15: in immigration seven years and it's the first time I've
Speaker 15: thought of, Okay, where am I going to go to
Speaker 15: next in these seven years, And it's a very real thing. So,
Speaker 15: like I said, it feels very different than Trump one
Speaker 15: point zero.
Speaker 4: So no, yeah, this is considerably most severe.
Speaker 15: So in other words, take care of yourself if you
Speaker 15: are an ally, because you know the attack is on
Speaker 15: immigrants and anybody who advocates, supports and so forth, and
Speaker 15: it's a very very targeted, direct attack and it's very
Speaker 15: easy to get run down, yeah, and consume by it.
Speaker 15: And so definitely do what you need to do to
Speaker 15: take care of yourself. And if that means stepping back,
Speaker 15: then you know, I mean, I want to keep my
Speaker 15: foot in the door as much as possible these next
Speaker 15: four years on something immigration and recite asylum related. But
Speaker 15: there's also economic and other realities that are happening. Yeah intentionally, so.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, And I think it is important for people
Speaker 4: to do whatever they need to do to self preserve
Speaker 4: and take care of themselves as well. I think that's
Speaker 4: a good place to end. Thank you so much for
Speaker 4: your time, and again, like if you're listening, please check
Speaker 4: the description of the show and we will have a
Speaker 4: link to primorise Who's go fund me if you'd like
Speaker 4: to help.
Speaker 12: Thank you so much, James, thank you. This is it
Speaker 12: could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's
Speaker 12: happening in the White House, the crumbling world of what
Speaker 12: it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined
Speaker 12: by James Stout and Robert Evans.
Speaker 7: Hello, what's up? Everybody? Who's got ed.
Speaker 4: Us?
Speaker 12: You everybody, we're giving you ed this episode, we're covering
Speaker 12: the week of May twenty one to May twenty eight.
Speaker 12: It was a really busy news week for the latter
Speaker 12: half of that week, so we're going to be mostly
Speaker 12: catching up with that.
Speaker 7: Jesus.
Speaker 12: Yeah, and let's start with the biggest news from late
Speaker 12: last week, domestically the shooting of two Israeli embassy staffers
Speaker 12: in Washington, DC. The shooting took place around nine pm
Speaker 12: on Wednesday, May twenty first, outside of an event at
Speaker 12: the Capitol Jewish Museum. Prior to the shooting, the suspect
Speaker 12: was seen pacing outside of the building. According to witnesses
Speaker 12: and surveillance video, a thirty one year old man named
Speaker 12: Elias Rodriguez approached a group of four people leaving the event.
Speaker 12: As he walked past them, he turned to face their
Speaker 12: backs and shot two people and continued to fire as
Speaker 12: they felt the ground. One of the victims, a twenty
Speaker 12: six year old woman, tried to crawl away after being shot.
Speaker 12: Rodriguez followed her and fired again Jesus while he was reloading,
Speaker 12: She sat up, and then Rodriguez shot her several more
Speaker 12: times before throwing his gun into a bush. He ran
Speaker 12: into the museum after the shooting. Security let him in
Speaker 12: thinking that he was a victim. Witnesses say he appeared
Speaker 12: traumatized and in shock. People from the museum event brought
Speaker 12: him water, and when they asked him if he was
Speaker 12: okay or if he was injured, Rodriguez requested the police.
Speaker 12: When cops arrived, he allegedly admitted to the shooting, and,
Speaker 12: according to witnesses, quote grabbed a red cafea out of
Speaker 12: his pocket. And started free Palestine chance quote there is
Speaker 12: only one solution, Antifada revolution unquote. While being arrested and
Speaker 12: taken out of the building, he chanted free Free Palestine.
Speaker 12: Israel's ambassador to the US claimed that the two victims
Speaker 12: were deliberately targeted as Israeli embassy employees, and that Rariguez
Speaker 12: mingled with attendees at the reception earlier that evening before
Speaker 12: raising suspicion and being asked to leave. Although the organization
Speaker 12: who put on this event, the American Jewish Committee, disputes
Speaker 12: this account. They say that Rodriguez tried to register for
Speaker 12: their event but was denied entry following a background check.
Speaker 12: Rodriguez is a lifelong Chicago resident. He got an English
Speaker 12: degree at the University of Chicago, legally bought a gun
Speaker 12: in Illinois and flew with it to d S the
Speaker 12: night before the shooting. This event was an American Jewish
Speaker 12: Committee Access DC Young Diplomat's Reception. The description for the
Speaker 12: event reads quote, this special event brings together Jewish young
Speaker 12: professionals age twenty two to forty five and the DC
Speaker 12: diplomatic community for an evening dedicated to fostering unity and
Speaker 12: celebrating Jewish heritage. Join us for heavy appetizers, cocktails, conversations
Speaker 12: and a special guest speaker. We are excited to introduce
Speaker 12: this year's theme, turning Pain into Purpose. Here from members
Speaker 12: of the Multi Faith Alliance and Israel as they delve
Speaker 12: into humanitarian diplomacy and have a coalition of organizations from
Speaker 12: the region and for the Region are working together in
Speaker 12: response to humanitarian crises through the Middle East and North
Speaker 12: Africa regions. The two victims were a young couple, Sarah
Speaker 12: Milgram and Ran Lisinski, twenty six and thirty, who met
Speaker 12: through their work at the embassy. Lozinski identified as a Christian,
Speaker 12: though he was born in Israel and moved to Germany
Speaker 12: as a kid, then returned to Israel and served in
Speaker 12: the IDF. There is an alternative claim that he was
Speaker 12: born in Nuremberg and then moved to Israel as a teenager,
Speaker 12: but most reporting says that he was born in Israel.
Speaker 12: In the aftermath of the shooting, politicians widely condemned this
Speaker 12: as anti Semitic violence. The acting US Attorney said that
Speaker 12: they are investigating the cases a hate crime and an
Speaker 12: act of terrorism. Dan Bongino, Deputy FBI Director, said the
Speaker 12: shooting was a quote act of targeted violence. The Israeli
Speaker 12: foreign minister and net Yahoo have laid blame at college
Speaker 12: protesters and foreign government officials, including the leaders of France,
Speaker 12: Britain in Canada, accusing them of blood libel for talking
Speaker 12: about Israel's quote supposed genocide and crimes against humanity unquote,
Speaker 12: and calling such rhetoric critical of Israel quote unquote incitement.
Speaker 12: Natanyahu said, quote free Palestine is just today's version of
Speaker 12: Hyle Hitler Jesus Christ. They don't want a Palestinian state.
Speaker 12: They want to destroy the Jewish state. They want to
Speaker 12: annihilate all Jewish people who have been in the land
Speaker 12: of Israel for three thousand, five hundred years.
Speaker 2: This is, obviously, I think, in a lot of ways
Speaker 2: the kind of thing net yahoo has been waiting for,
Speaker 2: and probably the kind of thing that a number of
Speaker 2: folks in that Trump is put in federal law enforcement
Speaker 2: have been waiting for because it provides them with some
Speaker 2: opportunities to continue their push to criminalize student organizing and
Speaker 2: organizing against.
Speaker 7: Israeli war crimes.
Speaker 5: Right like.
Speaker 2: The argument they want to be able to make is
Speaker 2: that just saying free Palestine is an active terrorism and
Speaker 2: there was an act of terrorism here, right, Like shooting
Speaker 2: two embassy employees for the crimes of their government, Like,
Speaker 2: that is a clear act of terrorism.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: You can feel however you want to about it, but
Speaker 2: like that's the definition of what was done. But the
Speaker 2: things he was chanting were not part of the active terrorism.
Speaker 2: The fact that he shot people to death was the
Speaker 2: active terrorism.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the murdering people that's the terrorism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is already illegal, by the way, and
Speaker 2: quite heavily, I'll be interested. We don't seem to know
Speaker 2: much about where he got the firearm.
Speaker 7: Yet that I've come across.
Speaker 12: So he legally purchased it in Illinois.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he bought it in Illinois, which has like fairly strict.
Speaker 4: Gun laws, Yes, some of the strictest in the US.
Speaker 2: So it's one of those things where there's already quite
Speaker 2: a bit of regulation around everything that he did here.
Speaker 2: But fundamentally, if you're able to buy guns, which you
Speaker 2: are because this, you know, if there's an amendment, there
Speaker 2: will be people who carry out attacks like this. And
Speaker 2: I don't really know there certainly didn't seem to be
Speaker 2: outside of this guy's personal chats with his friends. A
Speaker 2: lot of evidence that would have set him on anybody's radar.
Speaker 2: He had been at like a PSL Party for Socialism
Speaker 2: and Liberation march in twenty seventeen or something, but like,
Speaker 2: this wasn't a guy who had a history of violence
Speaker 2: or anything like that. And quite frankly, that's just a
Speaker 2: reality of the country that we live in, is that
Speaker 2: when people like this decide to carry out shootings for
Speaker 2: whatever reason, the odds of catching them are extraordinarily low.
Speaker 12: It's very hard to flag for a guy specifically like
Speaker 12: like this because there's a lot of them out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and most of them don't do shootings.
Speaker 12: Yeah, this active been widely condemned. Like pro Palestine commentators
Speaker 12: have said that this style of like adventurist terrorism does
Speaker 12: nothing to help the Palestine people and in fact only
Speaker 12: hurts them and plays into what like the Israel lobby
Speaker 12: and Natya who have been like wanting to happen for
Speaker 12: a while.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think kat Aboukazela, a Parastalian American woman he's running
Speaker 4: for office in Illinois.
Speaker 7: Worked it for Media Matters for years.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: It does a lot of videos. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Anyway, I saw that she'd she had something about
Speaker 4: how like yeah, this was something that evidently should be condemned. Right,
Speaker 4: that is wrong, and it's not advancing the cause of
Speaker 4: Palestinian freedom, Like I think adventurist terrorism is a good
Speaker 4: way to describe it. Geah, just getting panned by people
Speaker 4: on the internet, which like I don't know people engaging
Speaker 4: with this like from a place it doesn't come from,
Speaker 4: Like it's bad when random folks get shot killed.
Speaker 12: No, people have have used the horrific genocide as a
Speaker 12: way to like channel their general societal frustration and find
Speaker 12: a way to like just act incredibly hostile like to
Speaker 12: actual Palestinians. Yeah, yeah, yeah, who don't share the exact
Speaker 12: same like anti imperialist TM views that they might have. Right,
Speaker 12: it's just permission to abuse people online.
Speaker 4: Yeah, deeply, like verbally violent and like no like psycho shit.
Speaker 12: And this guy engaged in that kind of stuff as
Speaker 12: well as well as we'll see.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about that.
Speaker 12: Let's get a little bit into his background. So he
Speaker 12: has a manifesto that he posted on his Twitter account.
Speaker 2: And it's it's kojent like in terms of it's not
Speaker 2: the ramblings of like a madman or something. There's nothing
Speaker 2: like it.
Speaker 12: All He has an English degree, right, you know, to write. Yeah,
Speaker 12: he has worked as a writer for like almost a decade.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, I mean that in terms of, like
Speaker 2: it's very clear what he's trying to say. There's not
Speaker 2: any evidence here of like a disconnect or whatever. He's
Speaker 2: not doing this because he's blaming Israel for making the
Speaker 2: weather bad or whatever, right, right, yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 12: The manifesto is title to Escalate for Gaza, Bring the
Speaker 12: War Home, and he attempts to explain the rationale behind
Speaker 12: his actions. He starts by discussing the unknown total scale
Speaker 12: of dead Palestinians, writing that quote atrocity is committed by
Speaker 12: Israelis against Palestine. Defy description and defy quantification. He writes
Speaker 12: about how, despite protests and shifts in public opinion, the
Speaker 12: US government has continually refused to reign in Israel and
Speaker 12: instead moves to criminalize dissent. He talks about armed action. Quote.
Speaker 12: An armed action is not necessarily a military action. It
Speaker 12: usually is not. Usually it is theater and spectacle, a
Speaker 12: quality it shares in many unarmed actions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do find you know, one of the
Speaker 2: first things that happened when this attack was carried out
Speaker 2: was people started theorizing that this had been some Nazi
Speaker 2: who was using this to using the propouse and cost
Speaker 2: like camouflage as Nazism, and I don't think that the
Speaker 2: preponderance of evidence suggests that there are two weird things.
Speaker 2: One of them is that this guy's previous Twitter name
Speaker 2: was Habbo eighty eight, and he was not born in
Speaker 2: eighty eight, obviously whenever you see an eighty eight in.
Speaker 4: The Native Curse Millennial. And the other is.
Speaker 2: That the bring the war home reference in his manifesto,
Speaker 2: which is basically a reference to something that I believe
Speaker 2: was Louis Beam, who is a neo Nazi organizer, said
Speaker 2: about trying to get Vietnam veterans to essentially bring the
Speaker 2: war home to the United States in order to spark
Speaker 2: a race war. And those two little things are weird. However,
Speaker 2: the rest of this guy's fairly well documented history and
Speaker 2: background does not suggest anything like that, So I don't
Speaker 2: think that that's the credible thing to blame this on.
Speaker 12: Quite frankly, Yeah, I'll go over some of that background
Speaker 12: in brief.
Speaker 15: Yeah.
Speaker 12: He also talked about targeting government representatives, quote the impunity
Speaker 12: that representatives of our government feel at a Bedding that
Speaker 12: this slaughter should be revealed as an illusion. He then
Speaker 12: tells the story of a man who tried to throw
Speaker 12: Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara off a boat into the sea.
Speaker 12: He finishes with his thoughts on the quote unquote morality
Speaker 12: of armed demonstration, where he discusses this tendency to dehumanize
Speaker 12: the perpetrators of atrocities as a method for us to
Speaker 12: cope with the monstrous evil that ordinary humans are capable of.
Speaker 14: Quote.
Speaker 12: This action would have been morally justified taken eleven years
Speaker 12: ago during Protective Edge, around the time I personally became
Speaker 12: acutely aware of our brutal conduct in Palestine. But I
Speaker 12: think to most Americans such an action would have been illegible.
Speaker 12: It would seem insane. I'm glad that today, at least
Speaker 12: there are many Americans for which the action will be
Speaker 12: highly legible and, in some funny way, the only sane
Speaker 12: thing to do unquote. It did find it interesting that
Speaker 12: on December fifth, twenty twenty four, Rodriguez posted on his
Speaker 12: Twitter account that quote eighty percent of the country applauds
Speaker 12: the targeted annihilation of a healthcare insurance executive.
Speaker 7: Quote.
Speaker 12: As for his political background, Rodriguez identifies as a Maoist
Speaker 12: third worldiest yeah, and believes that the global seuth alone
Speaker 12: has quote unquote revolutionary potential. A friend of Rodriguez described
Speaker 12: his politics to journalist KNK Clippenstein like this quote. He
Speaker 12: was a big proponent of the emerging resistance axis of Russia, Iran, Hesbula, Assad, Syria.
Speaker 7: How'd that go?
Speaker 12: He seemed pretty vocally in favor of Hamas for years,
Speaker 12: way before twenty twenty three. He'd always hated Israel and
Speaker 12: would call it, quote the little Satan.
Speaker 4: For fox sake, they Asad test are in supreme as Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's a fucking ab test for someone having shitty politics.
Speaker 12: Yeah, with the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed by aside.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, Asad who gaffed his own people who murdered
Speaker 4: little children.
Speaker 2: Including thousands and thousands of Palestinians by the way, Yeah yeah, Like,
Speaker 2: but again, you shouldn't expect coherence or particularly well informed
Speaker 2: opinions out of folks.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: This.
Speaker 12: His online presence mirrors what I would call like the
Speaker 12: typical like anti imperialist TM poster where he's there is
Speaker 12: most of his frustration at the Democrats sometimes at Republicans,
Speaker 12: but mostly yeah, posts about being pro Russia, Iran, Hesbala,
Speaker 12: pro Asade, and particularly the past few years posting a
Speaker 12: lot of a Palestine right with explicit defense and like
Speaker 12: veneration of Hamas. The same friend that talked to Klippenstein
Speaker 12: also said, quote, it's driving me crazy that people are
Speaker 12: calling it a false flag. This development is shocking, but
Speaker 12: not completely out of character. Yeah, he always had strong
Speaker 12: political convictions. From the sound of the manifesto, he's the
Speaker 12: same as he was.
Speaker 7: Quote. Yeah, and I mean that seems true.
Speaker 2: Again, we still don't have a like a perfect knowledge
Speaker 2: of all of this guy's you know, online life. No,
Speaker 2: this is just a week away, but based on what
Speaker 2: Kin's posted, based on this interview, that makes complete sense. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: I like I don't have any trouble believing that for
Speaker 2: a number of reasons.
Speaker 12: No, absolutely, this is this is not a false flag attack.
Speaker 12: That's that's conspiratorial nonsense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's this guy did a thing that
Speaker 2: he's sincerely believed in, and it seems like everything he'd
Speaker 2: been expressing in the year or two leading up to
Speaker 2: doing this, you know, was consistent with what he did.
Speaker 12: Now, Rodriguez was affiliated with the Chicago PSL Party for
Speaker 12: socialistm in Liberation back in twenty seventeen, and spoke to
Speaker 12: the media on their behalf, though he would later regret
Speaker 12: his association with the group, telling friends quote, PSL sucks shit.
Speaker 12: I wish I had just done a misadventure with the
Speaker 12: Freedom Road Socialist organization rather than the PSL.
Speaker 7: Lol YEA.
Speaker 12: Rodriguez remained somewhat politically active in Chicago. In twenty twenty three,
Speaker 12: he posted video from a local pro Palestine march on
Speaker 12: his Twitter account. Clippenstein spoke with at least five friends
Speaker 12: of his, who all claimed that they never heard Rodriguez
Speaker 12: express anti Semitic sentiments. Now, one of Arigue's friends gave
Speaker 12: Clippenstein access to a years old private WhatsApp group chat
Speaker 12: that Rodriguez frequently posted in, including up to a day
Speaker 12: before the shooting. Clippenstein says, quote, the messages don't reveal
Speaker 12: any hatred of Jews per se, but they do portray
Speaker 12: an often bitter man who hated all sorts of other things,
Speaker 12: especially Israel and its Warren Gaza unquote, and from what
Speaker 12: we conceived of the chats that kind has posted, this
Speaker 12: matches pretty well, well, A chat member wrote, quote, I'm
Speaker 12: almost surprised you're not anti Semitic elias. It usually goes
Speaker 12: hand in hand with the whole Stalin did nothing wrong mantra.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and his response to this was like, Stalin ended,
Speaker 2: you know, among other things, Stalin ended the greatest anti
Speaker 2: Semitic state in history, which I've seen his evidence that
Speaker 2: he wasn't pro Stalin. He just supported Stalin, you know,
Speaker 2: defeating the Nazis. But he says like among other things,
Speaker 2: So he clearly got a number of reasons he likes Stalin.
Speaker 12: Yeah, from the exchanges with his friends, this guy's clearly
Speaker 12: like a like a tanky anti imperialist type.
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, yeah, a million such examples.
Speaker 12: The only time he talked about race explicitly was the
Speaker 12: lambast white people quote. Lol, you probably would have to
Speaker 12: actually genesied white people to make this a normal country.
Speaker 12: Like even a very targeted and selective rehabilitation program would
Speaker 12: probably have to lead to the lifetime imprisonments of tens
Speaker 12: of millions of white people.
Speaker 4: On quest, Uh, there's a Stalin did nothing really. Yeah,
Speaker 4: there's that rained type that we were looking for.
Speaker 2: Well, and again, it's one of those things we're talking
Speaker 2: about this because there's a bunch of guys who expressed
Speaker 2: similar views. This is the only one who's done as shooting.
Speaker 2: When we talk about this making sense, we're not talking
Speaker 2: about this like as evidence that like, oh, someone who's
Speaker 2: a fucking tanky type is like is likely to commit
Speaker 2: a mass shooting, right, they go hand in hand.
Speaker 12: No, this is the first time of take he's done anything.
Speaker 7: This is the first one of these I've heard of
Speaker 7: in quite quite a long time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just this guy.
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of people who expressed similar things to
Speaker 2: this guy, right, yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 12: On October seventh, he celebrated the Hamas attack. Quote just
Speaker 12: saw an incredibly gory video of the aftermath of Israeli
Speaker 12: troops trying to get dressed for the ambush, absolutely massacred
Speaker 12: by Hamas fighters. I am ao love checking back in
Speaker 12: with the news every few hours, like, hmm, I wonder
Speaker 12: if Israel still exists. You don't often get to credibly
Speaker 12: wonder if Israel is over yet today or not.
Speaker 2: Unquote yeah, and again, like that just kind of shows
Speaker 2: the general lack of knowledge.
Speaker 12: A level of political delusion.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like a lot of kind of telegram propaganda
Speaker 4: consumption type worldview here.
Speaker 2: Yes, and can convince you that what's happening is different
Speaker 2: from the reality.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 12: In this chat, he lmented to friends and expressed sorrow
Speaker 12: at the deaths of Hamas and has been of leaders
Speaker 12: and sometimes his ire was directed at other members of
Speaker 12: this leaked chat, at one point going on an unhinged
Speaker 12: ablest rant attacking one of his friends for being privileged
Speaker 12: after they discussed the challenges of having a brother with cazophrenia. Quote,
Speaker 12: why not just have him committed. You can't possibly be
Speaker 12: gaining anything from a relationship with a person like that.
Speaker 12: Just put him in a padded room and forget about him.
Speaker 7: Jesus Christ.
Speaker 12: If there was a person you loved, he's gone.
Speaker 4: Now let it go.
Speaker 12: Can you just chain him in the basement and slide
Speaker 12: meals under the door. I'm just tired of hearing about
Speaker 12: this guy. He's useless, we get it. Stop complaining and
Speaker 12: just dispose of him.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4: I mean this goes with the people who I don't know,
Speaker 4: aren't useful to me, are of no value? Right that
Speaker 4: people don't have inherent value and you know they don't
Speaker 4: agree with or are useful to him, then fuck them.
Speaker 4: They can die. Like, I guess there's some kind of
Speaker 4: coherence there.
Speaker 12: Well, Robert, you want to mention the Something.
Speaker 7: Awful, Yes, I do, Garrison.
Speaker 2: So the other thing that came out in Ken's article
Speaker 2: is that this dude was a poster. Well, his friends
Speaker 2: described him as a dedicated poster, which is the worst
Speaker 2: thing you can be described as being, and noted that
Speaker 2: he had been There had been some when it came
Speaker 2: out that like his former Twitter user name had been
Speaker 2: like Habbo eighty eight. That was very clearly a reference
Speaker 2: to a game called Habo Hotel that if you're gen Z,
Speaker 2: there's very good odds you don't remember. But it was
Speaker 2: a big thing for people who were on four Chan
Speaker 2: and who were on Something Awful. And Something Awful was
Speaker 2: the website that gave birth to four Chan. It's where
Speaker 2: I was raised on the internet, and many many years ago,
Speaker 2: around the turn of the millennium, I think I don't
Speaker 2: remember the exact year, but we started gathering on this
Speaker 2: game for children. It was like an MMO for little kids,
Speaker 2: and like pretending to be members of a cult in
Speaker 2: order to like confuse small children. And then four Chan
Speaker 2: did their own version of that that was a bit
Speaker 2: more racist, which is often the case.
Speaker 12: Yeah, many such cases, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, many such cases. Anyway, when this came out, there
Speaker 2: was a debate. Was this guy a channer or was
Speaker 2: this guy a goon? You know, a member of the
Speaker 2: something Awful forums? And a lot of people thought I
Speaker 2: called goon. A lot of people thought shanner because of
Speaker 2: his age, he was a little bit young to have
Speaker 2: been a part of the something awful have a hotel things.
Speaker 2: I think it's actually likely or he did both, but
Speaker 2: his friends described him as somebody who was really into
Speaker 2: something awful, right, as somebody who had been influenced by
Speaker 2: that in particularly a subset of the something awful forms
Speaker 2: called FIAD, which stands for fuck you and Die, which
Speaker 2: kind of pioneered a lot of them, those toxic aspects
Speaker 2: of online discourse.
Speaker 4: Apparently, Jesus.
Speaker 2: Now, folks have found at least one of his accounts
Speaker 2: that doesn't have a lot of posts, although that doesn't
Speaker 2: mean much because number one, he could have deleted a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff, which many people did when they got older.
Speaker 2: Number Two, he could have had another account, which is
Speaker 2: also the case. The one account that people know was
Speaker 2: his was banned for shooting and killing two him to
Speaker 2: see employees. There's reasons given in the ever lengthening something
Speaker 2: Awful ban list when somebody gets banned. Obviously, again, I
Speaker 2: don't think there's like a positive thing to him being Like,
Speaker 2: him being on something awful didn't cause him to shoot
Speaker 2: two people, but him being on something awful was a
Speaker 2: natural part of the progression that led to him being
Speaker 2: the kind of like toxic online asshole that he was.
Speaker 2: And sort of evidence of that is that one of
Speaker 2: the last things he had done online before the shooting
Speaker 2: was he had gotten briefly onto Blue Sky and then
Speaker 2: gotten in trouble for repeatedly harassing Will Stanzel, who's another
Speaker 2: annoying asshole on the Internet, who was also a something
Speaker 2: awful goon who was raised in this same chunk of
Speaker 2: the internet, and who became a similar kind of asshole,
Speaker 2: just with wildly different politics. And these two hated each other,
Speaker 2: and Elias like threatened to murder him over the internet
Speaker 2: because he's like, again that these guys, he's that type
Speaker 2: of guy. He's that type of guy, which doesn't mean again,
Speaker 2: which doesn't mean this is why he did a shooting
Speaker 2: or had anything to do with that, because there's a
Speaker 2: lot of this type of guy and almost none of
Speaker 2: them commit acts of terrorism. It just like his background
Speaker 2: makes complete sense for the kind of guy that we
Speaker 2: can see that he was online.
Speaker 12: The last thing I'll say about this is that you know,
Speaker 12: beyond this like senseless loss of life, which is like
Speaker 12: an issue in and of itself. Obviously, this also contributes
Speaker 12: to further loss of life in the way this plays
Speaker 12: into like media capture. Right now, we have a whole
Speaker 12: week where the new cycles dominated by two people getting
Speaker 12: murdered in the streets of DC, and this does not
Speaker 12: help the Palestinian people currently being killed by Israel. The
Speaker 12: exact same day that this happened, Wednesday, the twenty first,
Speaker 12: ninety three people were killed in Israeli attacks across the
Speaker 12: Gaza Strip and that type of stuff does not really
Speaker 12: get reported anymore because that's how media capture works. Americans
Speaker 12: are really good at getting desensitized to this in a
Speaker 12: large scale media environment, but stuff like this only serves
Speaker 12: as a distraction and fuels Israel's oone motivation for their
Speaker 12: continued actions.
Speaker 4: Talking of media capture, Garrison, we have been captured by
Speaker 4: the advertisers in this show it's true.
Speaker 12: There you go, and we are back. Another big news
Speaker 12: item from last week was the passing of the Big
Speaker 12: View full budget bill in the House. We'll talk more
Speaker 12: about this bill as it turns through the Senate, but first,
Speaker 12: our co host Mia Wong has a special report on
Speaker 12: how the bill targets trans healthcare.
Speaker 3: So we're going to talk a little bit about the
Speaker 3: budget bill that's currently working through a bunch of processes
Speaker 3: in the Senate, that's been passed by the House. I
Speaker 3: am Mia Wong, and with me to talk about how
Speaker 3: this budget specifically is unbelievably bad for trans people is
Speaker 3: Maddie Castikin from Mad Cast and Mirror Levine from The
Speaker 3: Free Radical. Glad to have both of you to hear.
Speaker 3: You've both been doing a bunch of journalism about this
Speaker 3: stuff specifically and what people can do about it. First,
Speaker 3: can you can you explain what is going on in
Speaker 3: this budget with the ban on trans healthcare using Medicaid?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Absolutely so. The budget bill, also known as House Resolution One,
Speaker 5: is this year's reconciliation bill, which is Congress basically deciding
Speaker 5: next year's budget and how they're going to allocate all
Speaker 5: their fun this time around. Republicans socided it would be
Speaker 5: a great idea to push through. So what it was
Speaker 5: at first was a intense limitation on what Medicaid cover,
Speaker 5: essentially just humongous Medicaid cuts. And this is what I
Speaker 5: began investigating first. Me and Mattie were talking about it
Speaker 5: a bunch. She's the one who took me off to it.
Speaker 5: They started off by implementing huge cuts to Medicaid that
Speaker 5: would result in millions of people losing access to their healthcare,
Speaker 5: not even just trans people. Shortly after they announced these cuts,
Speaker 5: for instance, adapt a group of disabled activists. They are
Speaker 5: famous for being the ones who climbed up the steps
Speaker 5: of the I believe it was the Capitol Building in
Speaker 5: the nineties to raise awareness and help get the American
Speaker 5: Disabilities Act passed. They staged a protest on the United
Speaker 5: States Capital during a hearing for this bill where Republicans
Speaker 5: were just talking about it and praising themselves. Multiple activists
Speaker 5: got arrested. They're all fine now. Apparently apparently they weren't
Speaker 5: treated too bad either, which is good to hear. But
Speaker 5: what ultimately happened is more and more came out and
Speaker 5: it came revealed that not only would disabled people be affected,
Speaker 5: but basically every marginalized group for people of course being
Speaker 5: what we were focusing on given the beat, but this
Speaker 5: will impact essentially everyone, especially if you're a low income,
Speaker 5: especially if you are a person of color, you are
Speaker 5: more likely to be impacted just by virtue of this
Speaker 5: bill and how sweeping it is. And Republicans implemented a
Speaker 5: ban for gender ferming care for minors on it. It
Speaker 5: was a very milktoas ban that at the time was
Speaker 5: projected to pretty much get overturned in court right away
Speaker 5: if we were to pass. They didn't stop there though.
Speaker 5: They quickly evolved it and they tried to implement it
Speaker 5: into a sweeping ban on gender firming care for all ages, Medicaid,
Speaker 5: and for any health insurance received through Affordable Care Act marketplaces.
Speaker 5: And ultimately this led to a lot of panic and
Speaker 5: a lot of people assuming that their care is going
Speaker 5: to be taken away immediately. That wasn't what's going to
Speaker 5: happen on The minimum effective date that's currently in the
Speaker 5: bill is twenty twenty seven. I'm telling people to prepare
Speaker 5: if it passes for twenty twenty six, because there's a
Speaker 5: decent change. Republicans will trying to expedite it because it
Speaker 5: passed through the House, it passed through committees in the House,
Speaker 5: it was sent to the Senate, and I think that's
Speaker 5: what we'll give to Mattie to talk about kind of
Speaker 5: what next steps for that are.
Speaker 9: Yeah, so lake Man was saying, there's a lot of
Speaker 9: really huge This bill is tremendous. They could talk for
Speaker 9: hours about it. But focusing on the transparts, there's a
Speaker 9: ban on medicaid funding and there's also a ban on
Speaker 9: including trans cares and essential Health benefit and ACA plans.
Speaker 9: And the thing about both of these provisions is that
Speaker 9: normally with reconciliation bills, they're supposed to be focused on
Speaker 9: budget items, not policy items. So for example, you couldn't say, hey,
Speaker 9: weed is legal everywhere now or something like that, or
Speaker 9: raise the minimum wage, which Democrats tried to do in
Speaker 9: twenty twenty one and they failed because there are rules
Speaker 9: regarding how this process works. And so what we argued
Speaker 9: in an article was that there's a possibility that, you know,
Speaker 9: if activists and advocates reach out to their senators and
Speaker 9: advocated to point out that this part of the bill
Speaker 9: is completely against those provisions, against those procedural rules for
Speaker 9: the Senate Parliamentaria could rule against it and basically strike
Speaker 9: that portion of the bill without ever even becoming law.
Speaker 9: And you know that would stay people a lot of
Speaker 9: stress and anxiety. And you don't have to worry about
Speaker 9: the court battles and what happens with Scremetti versus us,
Speaker 9: which is a Supreme Court case that's going to be
Speaker 9: ruled on on gender a firming care soon. So what
Speaker 9: we've been telling people, and you know, including listeners for
Speaker 9: your show, is that people really need to reach out
Speaker 9: to their senators every single day, email, call and ask
Speaker 9: them to vote no on this bill on HR one
Speaker 9: and specifically mentioned the trans healthcare aspects, and if you want,
Speaker 9: there's templates online on our website, or you can just
Speaker 9: you know, ask them, Hey, we don't think this bill
Speaker 9: is good.
Speaker 4: We don't.
Speaker 9: We want you to challenge specifically the parts that are
Speaker 9: attacking trans people. And I can confirm with you. I
Speaker 9: can't share too much information, but I can confirm with
Speaker 9: you that we are making real, legitimate progress on killing
Speaker 9: this provision. And the more people we have calling in
Speaker 9: every single day, the better our odds are. But there's
Speaker 9: still more ways to fight back, and I want Mara
Speaker 9: to pick up on how people can fight back on
Speaker 9: the ground.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So in addition to reaching out to your senators,
Speaker 5: of course, to that, there's an email template, Mattie wrote
Speaker 5: of a great one. It tells you everything you need to do.
Speaker 5: You can even leave a phone call to the script.
Speaker 5: It takes like five minutes. But more long term is
Speaker 5: this is not going to be the only attack on
Speaker 5: gender affirming care. It's not going to stop here. This
Speaker 5: is just the latest attempt that they're trying to do. Ultimately,
Speaker 5: we cannot rely on the government to give us a
Speaker 5: central health care. We cannot rely on the government to
Speaker 5: protect us and give us what we need, because fundamentally,
Speaker 5: the government and the laws that it aims to uphold
Speaker 5: are about protecting the rich, protecting the powerful, protecting the wealthy.
Speaker 5: The law is functionally something that gives police power to
Speaker 5: act as essentially an occupying army on the state and
Speaker 5: to persecute anyone who deviates from what those who are
Speaker 5: disproportionately rich and powerful decruity. And we need to start
Speaker 5: focusing on building long term solutions. Everything we can do
Speaker 5: with legislative activism is important, but ultimately it will not
Speaker 5: save us, because there will be more attacks down the line,
Speaker 5: and they'll keep coming, and they only need to win once.
Speaker 5: We need to win that every time. But there are
Speaker 5: long term solutions. My beat at this point is essentially
Speaker 5: just telling everyone to get plugged into your local mutual
Speaker 5: aid network, get plugged into people doing work on the
Speaker 5: ground in your state, in your area who are focusing
Speaker 5: on a plethora of different issues. A bit of a
Speaker 5: self plug here. But I wrote an article, for instance,
Speaker 5: last month, where I interviewed a seasoned activist in the
Speaker 5: Twin Cities who told me just a lot about the
Speaker 5: history of radical practice in the cities, especially in light
Speaker 5: of the George Floyd riots and especially in right of
Speaker 5: corporate pride, rango capitalism whole nine yards recommend reading it.
Speaker 5: It's on the free radical dot org. Check it out.
Speaker 5: But beyond of course, my own writing in my own interviews,
Speaker 5: there are so many people doing work that doesn't get
Speaker 5: covered because it either isn't pattalable to mainstream news audiences
Speaker 5: or it isn't seeking coverage for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 5: In every single major city this I can guarantee there
Speaker 5: are people doing work most of the time. It's not
Speaker 5: going to be publicly visible, but they are there. I
Speaker 5: would recommend that everyone who is not currently plugged in
Speaker 5: gets started with something that is much more entry level
Speaker 5: and something that is much more like meant to be
Speaker 5: kind of for everyone who may not be willing to
Speaker 5: do more in depth and more treesy type of stuff.
Speaker 5: Food not bombs is the great thing I recommend for
Speaker 5: everyone to check out. Not every city has one, most two,
Speaker 5: every state has one. Beyond that, there are plenty of
Speaker 5: local mutual aid groups in every single locality, and if
Speaker 5: there's not one directly by you, there's probably one in
Speaker 5: your nearest major city. I would specifically recommend I'm a
Speaker 5: bit biased here, but I would recommend focusing on ones
Speaker 5: that are decentralized and non hierarchical, ones that don't revolve
Speaker 5: around centralizing power and placing that power in the hands
Speaker 5: of people who are either good at smooth talking or
Speaker 5: who have a lot of money. Ultimately, the way forward
Speaker 5: for people of all different marginalized groups, not even just
Speaker 5: trans people you know on document immigrants, blocking additions, people
Speaker 5: of color, low income people, disable people, and so forth.
Speaker 5: The way forward is by recognizing that our issues affect
Speaker 5: all of us. Attacks on trans healthcare are not limited there. Inevitably,
Speaker 5: let's say they ban trans healthcare overnight, they're going to
Speaker 5: come for intersex people. Next, They're going to come for
Speaker 5: gay people. Next, They're going to come for everyone. So
Speaker 5: I would just say get involved in your local groups
Speaker 5: and reach out. There are resources out there if you
Speaker 5: need some, check out the free radical dot org. I
Speaker 5: recommend a ton of them. Thank you and yees.
Speaker 9: Our upside for Matti Metticast is m adycast dot com
Speaker 9: and you can find our templates for contacting your senators there.
Speaker 9: Thank you so much for helping yourself and helping your community.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for that. I want to
Speaker 3: close on I want to read the Route, a real
Speaker 3: line form fucking Davix manifesto from and Or. Remember that
Speaker 3: the frontier of the rebellion is everywhere, and even the
Speaker 3: smallest insurrection pushes our line forward. And one of the
Speaker 3: arguments that going to make sure that is just true
Speaker 3: is that in order to maintain their holds, these people
Speaker 3: have to win one hundred battles across one hundred fronts,
Speaker 3: you know. But this means that there are so many
Speaker 3: different things that you can do to resist them and
Speaker 3: to make sure that this fucking budget they're trying to pass,
Speaker 3: to make sure that everyone in this country suffers, and
Speaker 3: specifically that trans people cannot use the health insurances that
Speaker 3: we need, use Medicaid, use Affordable Care Act to pay
Speaker 3: for stuff. This stuff can be resisted in so many
Speaker 3: different ways. You can ass We've talked about. You can
Speaker 3: call your senators, you can yell at them, you can
Speaker 3: make their lives miserable until they agree to not do this.
Speaker 3: And then also you can join your local mituway groups,
Speaker 3: you can join local activist groups. You can start you know,
Speaker 3: getting a serious or organized. Other ways you can again,
Speaker 3: like we've talked a lot about unions and the role
Speaker 3: of unions and trying to struggle on the show. We've
Speaker 3: talked of God, We've talked about so many things. I'm
Speaker 3: going to do a one second plug for the episode
Speaker 3: I wrote last year called you already know how to
Speaker 3: organize because you do already know how to organize. And Yeah,
Speaker 3: none of the things that are happening here are inevitable.
Speaker 3: They can be stopped and there are so many many
Speaker 3: different ways for you to start stopping them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're back, and we're talking about Gavin Newsome
Speaker 2: and particularly the intersection of the governor of California and
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, which is a lot more shameful than you'd expect.
Speaker 2: So if you remember a little earlier this year, there
Speaker 2: was a big brujaha publicly because a California transgender high
Speaker 2: school athlete won at the woman's eight feet triple jump.
Speaker 2: This is an eleventh grade transgender athlete from Urupa Valley
Speaker 2: High School near Riverside, California, and she won the Division
Speaker 2: three girls long jump and triple jump and placed seventh
Speaker 2: in the high jump at her Southern Section championship.
Speaker 7: A few weeks later.
Speaker 2: There's going to be I don't think it's happened yet,
Speaker 2: a championship meet that she qualified for as a result
Speaker 2: of this. And when this happened, it was immediately left
Speaker 2: on by the Trump administration and by right wing media
Speaker 2: as evidence of this thing that they've been trying to
Speaker 2: push for forever, which is that trans athletes are a
Speaker 2: threat to women's sports. Right now, this is something that
Speaker 2: number one, there's just not a lot of And this
Speaker 2: is also something that like I think something like two
Speaker 2: thirds of Americans when polled say that they don't feel
Speaker 2: like trans athletes should be competing with you know, quote
Speaker 2: unquote naturally born women in women's sports. Right, Like, this
Speaker 2: is a thing that the right has built a lot
Speaker 2: of support for because they have made this a political
Speaker 2: issue for so long, and they've been largely successful in
Speaker 2: that the state of California and California lawmakers have been
Speaker 2: pushing back against this. There have been state bills in
Speaker 2: order to allow these girls to continue to compete. But
Speaker 2: Gavin Newsom has not expressed the same degree of support.
Speaker 2: And this kind of largely came out earlier this month
Speaker 2: when he had a meeting with conservative personality Charlie Kirk
Speaker 2: on his new podcast. As Newsom said, Kirk pushed so
Speaker 2: hard on the topic that Newsom said he felt like
Speaker 2: he had to address it. Here's how Newsom characterized it.
Speaker 2: And then he asked me, tell me that's not fair.
Speaker 2: And I looked at him. I said, you're right, that's
Speaker 2: not And so it wasn't some grand design. And I know,
Speaker 2: I know that hurt a lot of people, but respectively,
Speaker 2: I just disagree with those on the other side of this.
Speaker 7: Now, this brought a backlash against Newsom.
Speaker 2: He was attacked for flip flopping because again, like the
Speaker 2: California Democratic Party's position on this has been to defend
Speaker 2: trans athletes, but Newsom kind of flipped as soon as
Speaker 2: he was in a room with Charlie Kirk. Now, Newsom
Speaker 2: will argue that he also tried to stick up for
Speaker 2: trans athletes to Charlie Kirk. To be clear about that,
Speaker 2: this is exactly what he said to Charlie. Completely fair
Speaker 2: on the issue of fairness, I completely agree. So that's
Speaker 2: easy to call out the unfairness of that. There's also
Speaker 2: a humility and grace that these poor people are more
Speaker 2: likely to commit suicide, have anxiety and depression, and the
Speaker 2: way that people talk down to vulnerable communities is an
Speaker 2: issue that I have a hard time with as well.
Speaker 2: So both things I can hold in my hand. How
Speaker 2: can we address this issue with the kind of decency
Speaker 2: that I think you know is inherent in you but
Speaker 2: not always expressed in the issue. And first of all,
Speaker 2: there's no decency inherent in Charlie Kirk. And second yeah,
Speaker 2: there's also a humility and grace that these poor people
Speaker 2: are more likely to commit suicide.
Speaker 7: What does that?
Speaker 4: What that mean? What does that mean? Gavin, that's not
Speaker 4: a sentence. Also, like, just like I made my living
Speaker 4: exercising for most of my twenties, right, Like.
Speaker 7: You're a professional athletes done sports?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like and then I've done all kinds of ether
Speaker 4: shit where I still got paid to race my bike,
Speaker 4: right Like, Yeah, sports are unfair. It fucking sucks. I
Speaker 4: coached people who worked way harder than me. They trained
Speaker 4: super hard, they slept well, they ate better. Unfortunately, for
Speaker 4: whatever reason, they were not able to get to the
Speaker 4: same level. That sucks. But like, sport is inherently unfair.
Speaker 4: The idea that like the only difference is like this,
Speaker 4: like you so x y chromosoonality is nonsense. Like, especially
Speaker 4: in high school sports, kids will develop at different times.
Speaker 4: That is unfair. Some kids will excel and then other
Speaker 4: kids will get better. The function of high school sports
Speaker 4: is not to find who can go like higher, faster, stronger.
Speaker 4: It's to teach people to play nicely with one another
Speaker 4: and to communicate inclusion and excluding trans kids is completely
Speaker 4: contrary to that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's like, yeah, I think that's a great point, James,
Speaker 2: is that, like number one, this is all being entirely
Speaker 2: made about like who places how which is always going
Speaker 2: to be based largely on things that like people can't control,
Speaker 2: because like people's bodies are different, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they developed differently. Like there are people who
Speaker 4: I beat a by graces when I was a kid
Speaker 4: who have one stages at the Tour de France. Yeah,
Speaker 4: Like if our bodies developed differently, that's completely normal.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it's this again.
Speaker 2: The thing that should matter here is not treating a
Speaker 2: community of people hatefully, which is the entirety of the
Speaker 2: reason the right has made this an issue. It has
Speaker 2: nothing to do with fairness, It has nothing to do
Speaker 2: with sports. It's entirely about hurting a group of people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if these people gave a single shit about women's sports,
Speaker 4: said it being there when women weren't getting paid the
Speaker 4: same Did it been there when they didn't get the
Speaker 4: same TV covery? Did it there when they didn't get
Speaker 4: the same price money?
Speaker 2: And they were mostly making fun of women's sports at
Speaker 2: that point in time. Now, I do think one thing
Speaker 2: that's funny here is that when Newsom was when people
Speaker 2: asked rightly, like when Californian legislators were pushing to protect
Speaker 2: trans athletes, why didn't you bring up that you felt
Speaker 2: this way, and his answer was, I didn't have a podcast.
Speaker 7: I wasn't having that conversation.
Speaker 2: I was out there on the campaign trail and the
Speaker 2: big blue bubble, on the big blue bus and the
Speaker 2: big blue crowds, having big blue conversations. And then he
Speaker 2: went on to say that basically the backlash to him
Speaker 2: agreeing with Charlie Kirk on this has convinced him. I
Speaker 2: always thought the right overstated how judgmental my party was,
Speaker 2: and I'll be candid with you, I have a deeper
Speaker 2: understanding now of that critique than I ever ever ever understood.
Speaker 2: It's like, now that people are angry at me, I
Speaker 2: believe there's a problem with my part being judgmental.
Speaker 4: Yeah, now that I've faced a consequence of my shit,
Speaker 4: I hate trans people even more.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 12: It must be so hard to be Gavin Newsome. It's
Speaker 12: gotta be tough and betray your constituents to get the
Speaker 12: approval of a millennial right wing podcaster who goes around.
Speaker 4: Who still hates you, touring.
Speaker 12: College campuses to debate seventeen year olds. That must be
Speaker 12: so hard for you.
Speaker 7: It's gotta be tough. Gotta be tough, Gavin.
Speaker 4: He did say in his podcast. His kid likes Charlie Kirk,
Speaker 4: not surprisingly. Maybe this is all just a ploy to
Speaker 4: be a cool dad.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm not surprised he sucks at being a dad.
Speaker 4: Gavin usedomings, you wants to be a cool dad empty,
Speaker 4: It's embarrassing.
Speaker 12: Reminds me that Jake Dapper just said his kid's not
Speaker 12: really into politics. He's just into World War two and gaming.
Speaker 7: Great part of World War Two.
Speaker 4: Tapurious, curious many such cases. Doesn't his kid want to
Speaker 4: be a cop? Is that Jake Tapper?
Speaker 7: Yeah, that makes sense. That sounds like Jake fucking Taper's kid.
Speaker 3: So look.
Speaker 2: Earlier this week, on Tuesday, President Trump shared a truth
Speaker 2: social post, a truth threatening to yesa he retruthed a
Speaker 2: post threatening to withhold federal funding from California over the
Speaker 2: participation of this high school trans athlete in the upcoming
Speaker 2: California Interscholastic Federation State Track and Field championships. Right, and
Speaker 2: he said that, under the leadership of radical left Democrat
Speaker 2: Gavin Nuskum, California continues to illegally allow men to play
Speaker 2: in women's sports. The governor himself said it is unfair.
Speaker 2: Trump wrote, first off, the fact that Gavin agreed with
Speaker 2: Charlie INA's podcast did nothing to change the rhetoric around him.
Speaker 2: He's still radical left Democrat Gavin newscom because you can't
Speaker 2: make these people unhappy because it's not about fairness, it's
Speaker 2: about hurting people.
Speaker 12: Right, you can fight this. The governor of Maine has been.
Speaker 7: I wanted to talk about Maine.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, So Trump made this same threat to the
Speaker 2: state of Maine when the governor of Maine refused to
Speaker 2: stop allowing trans people to compete in women's sports, and
Speaker 2: the administration attempted to freeze funds intended for a main
Speaker 2: child nutrition program.
Speaker 12: No more food for your kids because woa, no more.
Speaker 7: Food for poor kids because woke.
Speaker 2: And in response, the governor made was like, all right,
Speaker 2: let's fucking go to the mat. And they filed a
Speaker 2: lawsuit against the US Department of Agriculture, and the Trump
Speaker 2: administration settled like they they backed down. They agreed to
Speaker 2: stop freezing the funds if Maine dropped the lawsuit, right like,
Speaker 2: as soon as Maine sued, Trump backed down, right, And
Speaker 2: rather than attempting to do that, even though there's ample
Speaker 2: evidence that the administration backs down and to be fair
Speaker 2: and I think against Maine. California's got a lot more
Speaker 2: weight to throw around. Yeah, it's the fifth blackist economy
Speaker 2: on the planet. They have some they have some fucking
Speaker 2: heck behind them, and like News clearly has.
Speaker 4: No moral principle other than advancing his own career and
Speaker 4: personal power and wealth right now. But like, even if
Speaker 4: that is the case, it's so easy to be like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I'll fight him on this, I'll fight for the trans
Speaker 4: kids and get some like resist a points.
Speaker 2: But he's just too much of a fucking cow. The
Speaker 2: first rule of fighting these people is don't give them anything.
Speaker 2: Don't treat them like people. They're monsters, their scum. You
Speaker 2: fight them every step of the way, right, Like, it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what you feel about the issue. You never
Speaker 2: give pieces a shit like this a win. Yeah right,
Speaker 2: that's just not the way you fight them.
Speaker 12: This is the problem with people like Evin who just
Speaker 12: whose entire politics is just chasing the zeitgeist.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 12: So then when you interpret the zeitgeist as like swinging
Speaker 12: against your previously held progressive DEI woke LGBTQ plus values, yeah,
Speaker 12: then you just go along with that swing and you
Speaker 12: actually don't even care about getting this getting this points
Speaker 12: anymore because you think the culture is going in a
Speaker 12: different direction. Sure, and all you care about is being
Speaker 12: in the cultural zeitgeist. Yeah, you don't actually stand for anything,
Speaker 12: like you're just you're's nothing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and everyone can see that.
Speaker 2: As opposed to understanding. What Governor Frey of Man understands
Speaker 2: was that no, you stand there. You accept that the
Speaker 2: zeitgeist is a screen door and it's going to bounce
Speaker 2: off of you and back in enough for another direction
Speaker 2: if you stand for something, right, Gavin decided not to
Speaker 2: stand for something, and immediately after Trump made that tweet
Speaker 2: threatening to withhold funds from the state of California, and
Speaker 2: you know, the Department of Education has opened title for
Speaker 2: investigations in two leagues that have allowed trans athletes, including CIF,
Speaker 2: which is California's high school governing a sports governing body.
Speaker 2: Right after Trump made this most recent truth, the CIF
Speaker 2: released a statement saying that it had made the decision
Speaker 2: to pilot an entry process for the championship that's coming
Speaker 2: up that will alter the way they hand out awards.
Speaker 2: It will expand qualification opportunities for biological female student athletes.
Speaker 2: Is the exact way that they have phrased this, and
Speaker 2: basically what they're going to be doing is giving an
Speaker 2: award for biological men, biological women, and then competitors, right,
Speaker 2: so there will be like three long jump awards.
Speaker 12: It's like a segregated scoring field.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's some. I guess you could say it's
Speaker 2: not as awful as trying to ban people. But also
Speaker 2: it's kind of like you're not even taking any kind
Speaker 2: of stance here.
Speaker 4: It's not it's just it's nothing.
Speaker 7: It's nothing.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 2: Newsome spokesperson is a garden, says cif proposed pilot is
Speaker 2: a reasonable, respectful way to navigate a complex issue without
Speaker 2: compromising competitive fairness. That governor is encouraged by this thoughtful approach.
Speaker 2: And I should note here this has done nothing to
Speaker 2: actually calm the right or get conservatives to back down right.
Speaker 12: Now, because they don't want trans kids competing at all.
Speaker 12: They don't want trans kids in public life.
Speaker 4: They don't wants existing.
Speaker 2: Yes, and so like the conservative Californians are still angry.
Speaker 12: You can't take them for their word for it. Yeah,
Speaker 12: they don't care about fairness in sports. This is all
Speaker 12: about just eradicating transgenderism from public life. Like as as
Speaker 12: Michael Knowles said at Sea Pack like two years ago,
Speaker 12: like that's yeah, what they actually care about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's you know, there's been a bunch of
Speaker 2: statements some some Democrats and the legislative LGBTQ cock because
Speaker 2: it have been like well, Gavin's you know, otherwise been
Speaker 2: a good ally, you know for LGBTQ people. And I
Speaker 2: don't agree with this is something that an Assembly member
Speaker 2: Chris Ward said basically, I don't agree with this particular move,
Speaker 2: but he's been a good ally for a long time.
Speaker 3: Has he though? Has he though?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean when it's convenient to him, I guess I prefer.
Speaker 2: Caucus member Alex Lee said that Newsom was quote just
Speaker 2: commenting on how he personally feels. He mentioned it on
Speaker 2: his dumb podcast. He never intended it to be a
Speaker 2: policy direction. Announced, Hell yeah, that's a dumb podcast.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, I mean you should be concerned that he
Speaker 4: has a dumb pot cost what he deemed it. I
Speaker 4: just trans people like, yeah, he signed vetos all the time.
Speaker 2: Like again, I found a k Cira add An article
Speaker 2: on this that quotes Republican's leew Woman Kate Sanchez, who
Speaker 2: wrote a bill that would have banned transathletes from competing
Speaker 2: in girls high school sports earlier this year. This is
Speaker 2: what she said about cif's rule chains pilot policy. It's
Speaker 2: incredibly weak. We're angry, We're pissed at this. How every
Speaker 2: day that goes by, no one is protecting our girls.
Speaker 2: This is inexcusable. We need to have something done. Governor
Speaker 2: Newson needs to pick aside, do something, do the right thing.
Speaker 2: So again, this gets you nothing with them, right, It
Speaker 2: benefits you not at all. There's another quote I want
Speaker 2: to read here from State Senator Scott Weiner, who is
Speaker 2: the leader of the Senate Budget Committee and again a
Speaker 2: member of the LGBTQ rights Caucus. Trump is now targeting California,
Speaker 2: just like he targeted Maine. Threatening to withhold federal funds
Speaker 2: of California doesn't follow as illegal edicts targeting transgender people.
Speaker 2: California law protects trans people. That won't change Main one
Speaker 2: in court, So will California. There's only one answer to
Speaker 2: a bully. No, And as Main Governor Janet Mills said,
Speaker 2: see you in court. Sorry I got I don't know
Speaker 2: why I said Governor Fray earlier, but anyway, the point
Speaker 2: here is that you have Californian legislators saying the right thing,
Speaker 2: and then you have fucking Newsome being like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: actually we're totally going to cave and in a way
Speaker 2: that won't even make the Republicans happy. It's just frustrating
Speaker 2: to me that you do have Democrats trying to do
Speaker 2: the right thing here in California politics and Newsom absolutely
Speaker 2: having CIF do a run around on them out of
Speaker 2: pure cowardice. Anyway, that's what I got.
Speaker 12: Get him out of there.
Speaker 7: Get him out of there. Fuck Kevin Newsom.
Speaker 4: We tried to. That was a recall, but it was
Speaker 4: not for the right reasons.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the last time we recalled a California governor, it
Speaker 2: was a real mixed bag.
Speaker 4: Yeah, speaking of a mixed bag, that's right.
Speaker 7: And we're back.
Speaker 12: Okay, we're back.
Speaker 4: We're back.
Speaker 12: James don want to finish us up here.
Speaker 4: I do, Garrison, I would like that very much. I
Speaker 4: want to talk about a couple of things. I'm going
Speaker 4: to try and keep this faster now it's already been
Speaker 4: a long episode. Let's start with agents have been arresting
Speaker 4: people in immigration court around the country and placing them
Speaker 4: at expedited remove all proceedings. If you want to know
Speaker 4: more about exactly what they exploited remove all proceedings are
Speaker 4: and how they work, you can go back to our
Speaker 4: episode which will have aired the day before you hear this,
Speaker 4: and that would explain and I talked to an immigration
Speaker 4: attorney there and explain a little bit more about how
Speaker 4: that works. This includes people whose cases were not dismissed.
Speaker 4: So previously, it was reported that ICE was dismissing cases
Speaker 4: of people who had arrived less than two years ago
Speaker 4: and placing them under two forty explanited remove all proceedings.
Speaker 4: Apparently they are also detaining other people. I am not
Speaker 4: sure how that works. I have not seen any justifications
Speaker 4: for this to give me an explanation for it. I'm
Speaker 4: not sure how much that matters anymore. These people are
Speaker 4: going to have to fight their removal from detention, which
Speaker 4: is obviously going to be a pretty unpleasant experience.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 4: Detention in these in these cour civic or geogroup facilities
Speaker 4: is pretty bad. I'm aware of cases where I misidentified
Speaker 4: the person being detained cuff the wrong person. And I'm
Speaker 4: aware that there are Spectrum services who are an ICE
Speaker 4: detention officer provider officers, at least outside some of these facilities.
Speaker 4: I believe also inside spectrum services. I've noticed been posting
Speaker 4: a lot of job adverts recently. This is something I
Speaker 4: sometimes keep an eye on, right, Like right before the
Speaker 4: end of title forty two, I saw they were advertising
Speaker 4: for ice contractors to transport detainees. So this is sometimes
Speaker 4: a sign that bad things are a foot in the
Speaker 4: immigration world. I'm guessing in this case it's either this
Speaker 4: or a plan to further expand detention capacity, which also
Speaker 4: something the Trump administration has been talking about. Right, So
Speaker 4: they also have these various subjective orders authorizing more budget,
Speaker 4: and the budget bill or threw thing more budget for
Speaker 4: detaining migrants. Secondly, the South Sudan case rope we've covered
Speaker 4: this last week DVD alvs is known. We also covered
Speaker 4: it earlier in this week. If you go back to
Speaker 4: our episode which aired on Wednesday, you can hear more
Speaker 4: about the sort of blow by blow of timeline of
Speaker 4: that case. In the South Studian case, Trump administration seems
Speaker 4: to have gone directly to the Supreme Court try and
Speaker 4: get an emergency stay on the injunction which afforded due
Speaker 4: process rights to the migrants who are currently detained into Booty.
Speaker 4: The administration asked for a stay of the court's injunction.
Speaker 4: The courts injunction had given them ten days to assert
Speaker 4: their reasonable fear of torture, and then a further fifteen
Speaker 4: days to ask to reopen their case if the Department
Speaker 4: of Home Land Security determined that fear not to be credible.
Speaker 4: Justice Supreme Court Justice Jackson has given the plaintiffs a
Speaker 4: week to respond to the United States the DOJ's call
Speaker 4: for a stay right, So, in practices, people will still
Speaker 4: have that ten days from the injunction to make their
Speaker 4: claim that they have a fear of torture. Right South
Speaker 4: Sudan has said that if these people aren't South Sudanese,
Speaker 4: it will just return them to their country of citizenship.
Speaker 4: So if the United States can't return them there because
Speaker 4: they have a fear of torture, it just seems like
Speaker 4: the whole South Sudan thing is just an end run
Speaker 4: around the Convention against Torture Right there their obligation not
Speaker 4: to return people to places where they will be tortured.
Speaker 4: Talking of returning people to places where they will be tortured. Unfortunately,
Speaker 4: the Trump administration has deported twenty people to Mianma. This
Speaker 4: is according to reporting in Mianma.
Speaker 7: Now.
Speaker 4: I've also written about it on my page Patreon page.
Speaker 4: I've linked both of those in the show notes. But
Speaker 4: it should be noted that meam I now broke the
Speaker 4: story and it's getting very little coverage in the United States.
Speaker 4: I can speculate as to why that. You probably don't
Speaker 4: need to hear me to sort of join the dots there.
Speaker 4: This is atrocious. Robert and I have both spoken to
Speaker 4: people with extensive experience of them, and like, when we
Speaker 4: talk about the worst attention conditions in the world, we
Speaker 4: get to a point where it doesn't really make any
Speaker 4: sense for us to say, like a is worse in.
Speaker 2: Right right, that this is worse than Sednaia or whatever.
Speaker 2: But it's on like the level which was Assad's torture
Speaker 2: prison and syria As.
Speaker 4: Sad's butchery for human beings.
Speaker 7: Like we're talking about that level.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I mean things that I have heard. People
Speaker 4: have been electrocuted to death, people are water boarded, people
Speaker 4: have acid poured in their mouths. Bodies are found without organs,
Speaker 4: people are beaten to such an extent that their entire
Speaker 4: bodies are covered with bruises and contusions. Many times people
Speaker 4: will only know that their family member is detained when
Speaker 4: they disappear, and then a few days later they get
Speaker 4: a call telling them to pick up the body. Conditions
Speaker 4: in Burmese hunted attention facilities are atrocious. These people are
Speaker 4: currently being held at the on Tarpi Interrogation Center. It
Speaker 4: appears at seven of the early so this has been
Speaker 4: happening since March. It appears that some of these people
Speaker 4: have been released. The rest are being held by SAC
Speaker 4: that's the Burmese hunter of military intelligence units, who will
Speaker 4: almost certainly torture them. Me and MA does have a
Speaker 4: temporary protected status, but I think I've seen a couple
Speaker 4: of posts about this, so I just want to clarify
Speaker 4: the TPS doesn't apply to people who entered after the
Speaker 4: TPS was granted, or to people who have committed certain crimes.
Speaker 4: We know that at least one of the men they
Speaker 4: returned had been convicted of a crime. Not all of
Speaker 4: these crimes are like particularly Henus felonies. Right, you can
Speaker 4: do a certain number of misdemeanors and also be deported
Speaker 4: under a TPS. But I'm trying to find out who
Speaker 4: these people are. I know that you can't download our
Speaker 4: podcast in Meanma, which is a huge dub for us,
Speaker 4: But you know, I know a lot of Burmese people
Speaker 4: do listen, so you know, if you have an particular
Speaker 4: insight into this, you could reach out to us. We'll
Speaker 4: drop the email addressing a little bit here. Seem very
Speaker 4: unlikely that these people were given a chance to make
Speaker 4: a claim of fear of torture, right, because it would
Speaker 4: be a very easy claim to make, given every major
Speaker 4: human rights organization on the planet has documented torture of
Speaker 4: detainees in Meanma. I was just reading a report this
Speaker 4: morning about harassment of trans women in prisons in Myanmar.
Speaker 4: But the same thing goes for CIS folks, for straight folks,
Speaker 4: for everyone, right, no one, No one comes out of
Speaker 4: there the same they went in. Yeah, I can't believe
Speaker 4: that these people were given a chance to claim a
Speaker 4: credible fear because it would have been such an easy
Speaker 4: claim to make, yep, and they wouldn't have been returned there.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I wish this story was getting more reporting.
Speaker 4: I wish more people in the media in this country
Speaker 4: cared about me and Ma. But that's a drama. I
Speaker 4: have been beating for four years now, and I don't
Speaker 4: think she's going to change anytime soon. So I guess
Speaker 4: all there is to say is that I really appreciate
Speaker 4: those of you who do, especially the third of you
Speaker 4: who listen to the show and take an interest in
Speaker 4: all things me and Maa. But yeah, if these people
Speaker 4: have been returned to a country that the US press
Speaker 4: was more familiar with, there'd be a lot more noise
Speaker 4: about this. But this is absolutely unconscionable.
Speaker 13: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, these people will be tortured. It would not shock
Speaker 4: me if some of these people died.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, this is I mean, there have been cases
Speaker 2: so far of I think at least seven of the
Speaker 2: people that have been sent over previously in the last
Speaker 2: year or so by the US have been released from
Speaker 2: this prison. So it's not unnecessarily a death sentence, but
Speaker 2: for a good number of them it will be, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: especially since there are also Rohinga people who will be
Speaker 2: deported in the near future and presumably directly back to
Speaker 2: the same place.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean it's documented that people deported from Thailand
Speaker 4: are immediately conscripted and yeah sent it to the military. Right,
Speaker 4: So if they get out of prison, there's a good
Speaker 4: chance that, especially if they're men, that they will be
Speaker 4: Women do get conscripted too in Meanmar, but there's a
Speaker 4: good chance that will happen to They've been conscripting a
Speaker 4: lot o Hinga people. So yeah, the outcomes of this
Speaker 4: will be very poor. And uh yeah, the only way
Speaker 4: torture stops in Burma is when the revolution succeeds and
Speaker 4: liberates to Britons. Like that, there is no reasoning with
Speaker 4: the Burmese hunter. Yep, it's about all I got. It's
Speaker 4: pretty fucked.
Speaker 5: Like.
Speaker 2: Speaking of fucked, let's listen to the tariff song riffs
Speaker 2: this week now fuck it.
Speaker 4: Well, let's just listen to it and then have the
Speaker 4: end of the episode just gets a nice song.
Speaker 7: Let's just listen to it now.
Speaker 12: We don't have time to listen to it. This is
Speaker 12: the end of the episode.
Speaker 2: Wow, Garrison took it away from you complained to them online.
Speaker 4: The constant ageist attacks on the Clash have not stopped.
Speaker 12: Sorry, fellas, all that money for nothing.
Speaker 7: We reported the new.
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.
Speaker 4: It could happen.
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more
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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.