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Speaker 1: Call Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hey, this is me the future. This is recorded in

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Speaker 3: the now Haalcion days of January twenty twenty five. Lots

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Speaker 3: of things have changed. Basically everything everywhere has gotten worse.

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Speaker 3: This is the story about the oppression of trends people

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Speaker 3: in the United Kingdom that is very bleak. In many ways,

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Speaker 3: United Kingdom has gotten worse since then. The UK Supreme

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Speaker 3: Court has ruled that the definition of sex and the

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Speaker 3: Equality Act of twenty ten is quote binary and is

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Speaker 3: decided by quote biological sex. So whatever the sex that

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Speaker 3: some fucking doctor assigns you at birth is your sex

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Speaker 3: specifically under the Equalities Act. A bunch of people in

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Speaker 3: the UK have decided that this means that like the

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Speaker 3: courts have ruled that like sex in general means quote

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Speaker 3: unquote biological sex. That's actually not what they ruled, but

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Speaker 3: they're doing anyways. So there's been a whole bunch of

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Speaker 3: things where, for example, the Labor Party has started purging

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Speaker 3: trans women from any like one of their bodies that's

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Speaker 3: supposed to be a woman's body. So through the oppression

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Speaker 3: of trans people continues to escalate. Yeah, our only path

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Speaker 3: out is just open and active resistance against them. In

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Speaker 3: a more positive note, Mira, our guest for this episode,

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Speaker 3: has since since this episode, has struck out on her

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Speaker 3: own and is now the mind and genius behind the

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Speaker 3: outlet Free Radical. She will link to here and you

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Speaker 3: should go support her work because it's great. Now to

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Speaker 3: our episode, it's it could happen here a podcast that

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Speaker 3: is largely about the US.

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Speaker 4: That my that might.

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Speaker 3: Exaggerate the e sat to which is about the US,

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Speaker 3: but it is most episodes are about the US, but

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Speaker 3: sometimes it's about other places. And one of the frequent

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Speaker 3: places that it's about is the United Kingdom. And specifically

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Speaker 3: we're here to talk about the United Kingdom because the

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Speaker 3: UK is both an image of the presence and the

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Speaker 3: future of the oppression of trans people and there have

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Speaker 3: been a bunch of just absolutely horrible things happening there

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Speaker 3: that have gotten very little press attention. And one of

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Speaker 3: one of those things is what appears to be a

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Speaker 3: like I guess I would call it like a two

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Speaker 3: stage cover up of a bunch of suicides of trans

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Speaker 3: kids on waiting lists for healthcare. And with me to

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Speaker 3: talk about this fucking terrible shit is Mira Lazine, who's

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Speaker 3: a freelance trans journalist. Miro, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 5: Great to be here, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I mean, God, this is one of those

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Speaker 3: I always am excited to talk to people, but I

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Speaker 3: swear to God, like one out of every four times

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Speaker 3: this happens, it's like a I have to pull do

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Speaker 3: I want to say, I'm excited to talk to you

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Speaker 3: about this because, like Jesus christis is the most depressing

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Speaker 3: shit I've seen in ages.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not a fun story. It's an important one,

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Speaker 5: probably one of the most important I've ever boarded on,

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Speaker 5: but not remotely fun.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So let's go back to the Halcyon days of mid

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four. I don't know, thanks for she really

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Speaker 3: bad then too, but they're worse now. But they were

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Speaker 3: also bad then, yeah, So can you talk a bit

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Speaker 3: about how this story started and about what was going

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Speaker 3: on with the National Health Service, the NHS, which is

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Speaker 3: the British basically the British healthcare system is run out

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Speaker 3: of National Health Service. Can you talk about the whistleblowers

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Speaker 3: there and what was going on with them?

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Speaker 5: So, yeah, I first became aware of whats going on independently.

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Speaker 5: I was working with Alejandra care Bio the Clinical Instruction

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Speaker 5: of cyber Law plant at Harvard sheets a friend of mine,

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Speaker 5: and we work together on subjects. She and Ira and

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Speaker 5: Almos some other people were talking about the horrific waitlists

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Speaker 5: going on with the NHS. It's terrible there. I mean

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Speaker 5: not even just for trance stuff. There's only millions of

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Speaker 5: reports of people having to wait months to get essential healthcare.

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Speaker 5: Some people have died just from like their conditions being

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Speaker 5: on the wait list. We had both stumbled upon some

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Speaker 5: old news reports from like years prior, about trans kids

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Speaker 5: who had unfortunately committed suicide as a result of not

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Speaker 5: getting the essential health CUY getting need on the wait list.

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Speaker 5: These stories are not talked about their media at all.

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Speaker 5: They got like one art mentioned naing what happened to them,

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Speaker 5: and then that was it. So we started to invest

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Speaker 5: gate it. She was compiling a spreadsheet of everything she

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Speaker 5: could find, every news report of kids who experienced this.

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Speaker 5: I was pitching helped and contribute to that spreadsheets. And

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Speaker 5: then right around the same time, the director then of

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Speaker 5: the Good Law Project, a civil rights organization that does

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Speaker 5: a lot of legal stuff in the United Kingdom. His

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Speaker 5: name is Jolyn Mogam apologized if I mispronounced that. He

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Speaker 5: came out with a Twitter thread revealing and this was

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Speaker 5: very suddenly. He hadn't contacted anyone about this. He just

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Speaker 5: kind of posted it right when he got enough of

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Speaker 5: a story and everything. He revealed that he was talking

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Speaker 5: to a couple of whistleblowers within the NHS about what

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Speaker 5: was going down. And not only did he talk to

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Speaker 5: some whistleblowers, but he also gained some independent evidence from himself,

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Speaker 5: his own investigation, from meeting it's from officials in the NHS,

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Speaker 5: and so what he found kind of again at the

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Speaker 5: first was still beliller. This one was someone who did

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Speaker 5: not reveal much about who they were publicly and presumably

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Speaker 5: to protect their job. But Logan said that with his

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Speaker 5: whistleblowers he independently confirmed that they did work for the NHS.

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Speaker 5: He saw their ideas. Mangham's that typic guy to lie.

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Speaker 5: He's a trusted figure in the UK political scene. First

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Speaker 5: one said that there was only one reported suicide prior

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Speaker 5: to twenty twenty. Significance of twenty twenty in relation to

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Speaker 5: trantelthcare at United Kingdom was that the infamous Caspell versus Tatstock.

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Speaker 5: Not going to go into detail of this case because

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Speaker 5: it condoluded messy and hellish, but the gist of it

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Speaker 5: is that it led to tightened restrictions on gender priman

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Speaker 5: care for minors, particularly in the new realm of puberty blockers.

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Speaker 5: This ruling ended up kind of restricting how might act

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Speaker 5: as puberty blockers. Some it was the leader overturned, but

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Speaker 5: it already led to lasting damage. Even after it was overturned,

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Speaker 5: a lot of doctors for even prescribe puberty blockers because

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Speaker 5: they were worried about political consequences. So a lot of

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Speaker 5: miners weren't getting the care they need.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we should also mention here too because I

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Speaker 3: think this has been lost in a lot of the

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Speaker 3: reporting on this, because like I mean, I guess this

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Speaker 3: is the story where a lot of the reporting was

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Speaker 3: done by trans people just because like nobody gives a shit.

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Speaker 3: But like, the thing about puberty blockers is that puberty

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Speaker 3: blockers with the healthcare of trans youth were always a

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Speaker 3: sort of compromise measure that was, you know, sort of

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Speaker 3: put in place as a compromise of like instead of

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Speaker 3: letting kids actually transition and like, you know, go on hormones,

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Speaker 3: which is, you know, the thing that kids need, right

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Speaker 3: if your goal is to like improve the health outcomes

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Speaker 3: of trans kids, like the thing you actually want for them,

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Speaker 3: like maximally is for them to have the ability to

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Speaker 3: get gender affirming hormones. But you know, the sort of

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Speaker 3: the sort of compromise thing that was happenings like, well,

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Speaker 3: you could have puberty blockers, but you know, you start

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Speaker 3: horbuns later, and that is not a good compromise to

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Speaker 3: begin with, but losing it is even worse because the

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Speaker 3: alternative to that is like you are now spending even

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Speaker 3: more time with a bunch of fucking hormones in your

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Speaker 3: system that you don't want. Thats more of more of

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Speaker 3: the hormones that you fucking want, and you know you're

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Speaker 3: getting you're being forced to go through puberty, which fucking sucks.

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Speaker 3: Shit if you're going through I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if the wrong puberty is like the correct language

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Speaker 3: or whatever, but like it fucking sucks. It's awful. But

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Speaker 3: now you know. And this is just something that's happening

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Speaker 3: in the US too. It's also happening in the UK,

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Speaker 3: is that the compromise solutions are being knocked out and

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Speaker 3: we're seeing the sort of knock on effects of these

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Speaker 3: kids losing even the sort of compromise stuff they were

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Speaker 3: supposed to be getting.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and they used come deep bogus justifications for this

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Speaker 5: or like we don't see any benefits of pu people loockers,

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Speaker 5: And it's like, the point is not that they are

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Speaker 5: benefiting these kids directly. No kid is like, oh boy,

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Speaker 5: I get to be five years behind on puberty from

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Speaker 5: my peers, I get to look like a ten year old,

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Speaker 5: but all my peers have bull one beam everything. Oh boy.

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Speaker 5: Like no, but the point is that these kids are

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Speaker 5: being deprived of the care they absolutely need to stay itlive,

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Speaker 5: and it's being targeted just for the sole purpose of

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Speaker 5: getting cheap political pals from what are the hell's in office. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: but more back to the whistleblowers. So prior to twenty twenty,

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Speaker 5: when the Belvy Tavistock ruling came into effect, only one

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Speaker 5: transmitter died from suicide. I don't quite remember how I'm

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Speaker 5: being the used estimated, but it was broader than the

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Speaker 5: one they used after. I believe it was like seven years,

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Speaker 5: I think, and the years after which was measured up

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Speaker 5: to like the very beginning of twenty twenty four. Chane,

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Speaker 5: you at twenty twenty four, so not even four years,

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Speaker 5: more like three years. In June months they recorded sixteen debts. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: sixteen transgender minors committed to suicide, and they were all

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Speaker 5: able to be linked to restrictions on compreticaters and NHS

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Speaker 5: wait lists. This was the blower says on This data

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Speaker 5: came directly from a doctor who analyzes this stuff professionally,

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Speaker 5: is like part of his job in the NHS. The

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Speaker 5: doctor also wanted to be anonymous. Understandably, he named himself

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Speaker 5: the quote named doctor for Safeguarding child. He tried to

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Speaker 5: warn people in the NHS about this. He was like, hey,

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Speaker 5: there's something wrong. This isn't right. We are fucking up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And he.

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Speaker 5: Talked to so many different people, including doctor Hilary Cass,

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Speaker 5: who I'll talk of it about later.

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Speaker 3: This is a literary device called foreshadowy ETCA giant clip

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Speaker 3: flashing big here, giant ominous music surrounding her remain that

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Speaker 3: does he just warned.

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Speaker 5: Of people basically, and they all ignored him. They all

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Speaker 5: just according to him. And this is all alleged. I

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Speaker 5: have to say, you know, this has not been verified

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Speaker 5: in the court of flaw or anything. This is according

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Speaker 5: to the whistleblowers and mongam, but we have no reason

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Speaker 5: to believe they lied or fabricated this information about this

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Speaker 5: was not even revealed publicly. There is no public outcry.

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Speaker 5: There was no action taken by the NHS or any

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Speaker 5: of the clinics. So that is the first whistleblower and

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Speaker 5: the whistleblower's connection to that doctor. The second one basically

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Speaker 5: can and gave independent verification of this. They were like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I've seen the data for myself too, I can confirm

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Speaker 5: this is legitimate. Now it wasn't just these sory staff

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Speaker 5: members who were trying to raise a larm bells. According

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Speaker 5: to the second whistle blower, staff and the NHS were like, hey,

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Speaker 5: well this is not cool, we need to do something

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Speaker 5: until they got an open letter, sent it to their

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Speaker 5: higher ups and reportedly the director of the Tavistock Clinic,

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Speaker 5: which was at the time the only gender affirming air

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Speaker 5: clinic for minors in the entire United Kingdom. Since that's

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Speaker 5: more opened up. But it's a really complicated thing. That's

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Speaker 5: a headache to deal with. But head honchos at Tavistock

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Speaker 5: completely retabiated. They threatened them a disciplined interaction. They suppressed material.

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Speaker 5: They're basically were like, you go public about this, if

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Speaker 5: you continue talking about this, you're going to face consequences.

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Speaker 5: The thing the thing that instantly came to mind here,

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Speaker 5: and I think it's just specifically because of number sixteen,

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Speaker 5: but like the first time I read this, the first

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Speaker 5: thing that came to my mind was there, you know,

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Speaker 5: there's the sort of famous Chicago story of the police

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Speaker 5: killing of the Clint McDonald where the slogan afterwards was

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Speaker 5: sixteen shots and a cover up. And this is fucking

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Speaker 5: sixteen dead at a cover up, And the about a

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Speaker 5: fucking rage that I have for all for this, all

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Speaker 5: of this fucking shit that these people covered this up,

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Speaker 5: that they knew this was happening and were just and

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Speaker 5: not only knew this was happening, and not only didn't

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Speaker 5: do anything about it, but like actively you contributed to

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Speaker 5: fucking making it worse by threatening anyone to try to

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Speaker 5: talk about it. Is just so unbelievably disgusting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I was the first one who broke the story. I

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Speaker 5: basically recorded on it, like almost immediately after Moldern Republic

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Speaker 5: about this, because I knew not many people were going

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Speaker 5: to report on this right away and it was going

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Speaker 5: to kind of be a headache. I didn't know how

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Speaker 5: he would, but I was the first one to report

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Speaker 5: on it. I did it for cheerlest Aaron read subsec

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Speaker 5: Aaron in the Morning back in June of last year,

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Speaker 5: and I had to stop writing it multiple times, like

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Speaker 5: I spent the entire day getting on it because it

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Speaker 5: was stomach wrenching reading some of these stories and doing everything.

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Speaker 5: The only reason I even got through it was because

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Speaker 5: I dissociated the entire time and just kind of impartmentalized

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Speaker 5: the anger of a bunch Beretta. It's like Jesus Christ, this

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Speaker 5: is horrifying. But Malcolm was not talking out of his

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Speaker 5: aspetus too. He brought receipts right in the initial thread

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Speaker 5: he showed leaked to meeting minutes and like you can

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Speaker 5: see water marks from the NHS on these meeting minutes.

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Speaker 5: Like it is unless someone wants to suggest that he

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Speaker 5: did a giant conspiracy and fabricated a bunch of very

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Speaker 5: accurate meeting minutes that reflect publicly available meeting minutes elsewhere,

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Speaker 5: it it's pretty reputable. Yeah, these minutes show that any

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Speaker 5: test officials were aware of every single one of these debts,

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Speaker 5: every single one of them. People were in these meetings

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Speaker 5: calling for an independent investigation into each of these debts,

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Speaker 5: into gender firming care for miners, into restrictions. They wanted

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Speaker 5: to investigate everything and had detailed data. They had information

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Speaker 5: on the type of care they received, which was basically negligence,

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Speaker 5: and instead of reporting on this publicly, instead of doing

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Speaker 5: an investigation, they covered this up. They didn't do anything,

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Speaker 5: and they just pretended like everything was fine, like there

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Speaker 5: was no debts as a result of this. They were

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Speaker 5: acted nothing wrong was going on, and these meeting minutes

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Speaker 5: are still public too. Mangan is not believed in that

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Speaker 5: it's still on his Twitter account. Good Law Project is

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Speaker 5: not fully a thing any more of the kind of

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Speaker 5: dissolving their stuff right now, but Magan is still keeping

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Speaker 5: all information up. It's all detailed, it's publicly there. People

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Speaker 5: can see for themselves these minutes and it's horrifying seeing

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Speaker 5: the physical proof. It's yeah, it's horrifying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we need to go to ads and when

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Speaker 3: we come back, we'll get to the second fucking cover

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Speaker 3: up because there was a second one. Did it again

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Speaker 3: this time with the British broadcasting What the fuck does

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Speaker 3: the C stand for corporation?

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Speaker 6: That one British broadcast in corporation leading the charge.

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Speaker 3: And we are back. So let's talk about the fucking

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Speaker 3: second cover up because normally, normally you only get one

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Speaker 3: cover up when your fucking healthcare policies kill a bunch

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Speaker 3: of people, but no, two, they got multiple cover ups.

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Speaker 3: Before we get to the second cover up, we need

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Speaker 3: to talk about what the cash report is because that's

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Speaker 3: also part of this. And we kind of bounced around

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Speaker 3: a little bit but then didn't. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, so the cast report is probably one of

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Speaker 5: the worst things to come out at the anti trans

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Speaker 5: crowd in the past decade.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: The gist of it is, it's essentially a supposedly independent

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Speaker 5: report commissioned by the Knighting government to investigate the efficacy

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Speaker 5: of huberty blockers and gender of herman care from liners

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Speaker 5: authored by doctor Hillard Cass, who they claimed is an

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Speaker 5: expert in the subject. I'll get to that in a second.

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Speaker 5: The gist of what it was claiming is that no

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Speaker 5: puberty blockers do anything. They actually hurt the kids. They

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Speaker 5: don't improve mental health, they don't protect anything, suicide to

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Speaker 5: stay the same, it's all bad. Get rid of them

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Speaker 5: and actually restrict gender perman care two and also maybe

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Speaker 5: we should de transition these kids too. It's a very

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Speaker 5: long documents, actually a set of documents, but the primary

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Speaker 5: one isn't incredibly long. I remember when it first it

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Speaker 5: came out last year. It's been in the works for

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Speaker 5: the better part of the last decade. Still get twenty tens.

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Speaker 5: It's been in the works. I don't remember the exactly

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Speaker 5: gear that it was initially commissioned, but it's been something

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Speaker 5: the United Kingdom government has been waiting on for a

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Speaker 5: while to take action for gender reforming care. Now to

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Speaker 5: understand the CAST report, you gotta understand a little bit

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Speaker 5: about Hillary Cass. Hillary Cass is not an expert in

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Speaker 5: gender firming care seeing up for minors. She has never

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Speaker 5: treated a transgender patient aimed her professional practice.

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Speaker 3: Whatsoever, which, thank god yes, because holy shit, oh she

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Speaker 3: is such a transphob Oh my god, yes, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: also utterly unqualified.

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Speaker 5: Completely unqualified while she was writing it instead of talking

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Speaker 5: with single trans person as like part of the consulting

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Speaker 5: because she didn't do it by herself. It's wait too

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Speaker 5: long for anyone to do buyers by themselves. She got

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Speaker 5: a bunch of unknown advisors to help her with this,

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Speaker 5: one of which is a Finnish psychiatrist who has been

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Speaker 5: campaigned against transgender rights for the past twenty years. But

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Speaker 5: she did not have any trans people on the consulting board,

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Speaker 5: not a single one. Well, of course, why would you

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Speaker 5: talk to a transperson about trans healthcare? Like that's why

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Speaker 5: would you. Trans people don't know anything. They need to

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Speaker 5: be regulated and told exactly what's best for them by

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Speaker 5: people who have never even talked to them before. She actually,

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Speaker 5: while she was writing it, she talked to Florida Healthcare

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Speaker 5: officials during the Ron DeSantis fstration for information YEP on

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Speaker 5: what to do like and these officials, by the way,

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Speaker 5: they weren't just like leftovers from the prior governor. They

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Speaker 5: were appointed by Ron de Santis and have literally been

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Speaker 5: Jews bidding and restricting healthcare.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, appointed by the guy who in the last campaign

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Speaker 3: cycle had to fucking add with a son and rat

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Speaker 3: in it. So like, you know the level of Nazi

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Speaker 3: we're dealing with here.

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Speaker 5: Uh. And not only did she work with them, but

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Speaker 5: there's even more. She worked with numerous people who were

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Speaker 5: tied to anti transit groups, most notable of which is

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Speaker 5: the quote Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine.

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Speaker 4: God.

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Speaker 5: They are probably one of the leading anti transgroups right now.

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Speaker 5: They are southern poverty, low centered, desic hate group. They're

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Speaker 5: not very fun people. They all have a financial interest

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Speaker 5: in opposing transgender rights. Many of the people with them

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Speaker 5: have been quite orderly paid to oppose transjunder rights in court.

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Speaker 5: There's a whole rabbit hole to get into there. The

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Speaker 5: point being she's worked with hate groups, She's worked with

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Speaker 5: the Santa's appointees, She talked to no trans people, and

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Speaker 5: she lied a lot. When the cast for Brew first

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Speaker 5: came out, I was one of the people who was

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Speaker 5: working around the clock to try to be like, hey,

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Speaker 5: let's not just assume that this is immediately accurate, because

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Speaker 5: we should wait for independent scholars to evaluate this. There's

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Speaker 5: a lot of shady stuff going on here, and why

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Speaker 5: didn't you know it? A lot of things were wrong

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Speaker 5: for starters. Ass misrepresented a lot of what she did

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Speaker 5: for the review. It was supposed to be a systematic

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Speaker 5: review into all the literature and pubi blockers. The problem

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Speaker 5: is she left out a bunch of studies, especially more

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Speaker 5: recent ones with better elogies. She and her method degrade them,

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Speaker 5: basically changed it up last minute and didn't seek peer

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Speaker 5: review for it from her institution's review the board, which

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Speaker 5: she didn't speak any ethical verification on anything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which, which is which is amazing. It's like, do

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Speaker 3: you know how fucked your report has to beat and

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Speaker 3: like your anti transferport has to be and not be

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Speaker 3: able to survive a British peer review board like Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 8: It's like yeah, like it's it gets even worse because

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Speaker 8: as time went on, a lot of journalists, myself included,

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Speaker 8: found a bunch of little pact role in art seat there.

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Speaker 5: She was misrepresenting this study. She was misterpreting that study.

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Speaker 5: Lots of little information it was she at one point

378
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Speaker 5: fighted a YouTube channel that is dedicated to opposing trans rate.

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Speaker 5: That be the YouTube channel in your fucking secitations. It

380
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 5: was a tangential citation, but the point being the fact

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Speaker 5: that she even discovered that shows her allegiances. She was

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Speaker 5: in the CAST Review. She was trying to cast doubt

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Speaker 5: on the leading medical association for trans people, the war

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Speaker 5: Professional Association for Transgender Health. She was like, Oh, no,

385
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Speaker 5: you're actually not good. They're politically biased. I'm not though,

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Speaker 5: don't more eyes, don't investigate me.

387
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And in the time since, there's been a shit ton

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Speaker 5: of medical experts coming forward opposing the CAST Review, being like, no,

390
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 5: the methodology is garbage. Not just journalists saying it. There

391
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Speaker 5: are quite littly been hundreds of metabirds who have come

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Speaker 5: forward to publicly imposed the CAST Review. These are people

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Speaker 5: across a variety of fields, psychiatrists, pediatrician and anechronologists, basically

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Speaker 5: everyone you could imagine who would be relevant to the

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Speaker 5: study of transunder health and minors. They have come forward

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Speaker 5: against it, including most of the leading researchers in the field,

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Speaker 5: including people who have actually important with trans people in

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Speaker 5: a professional capacity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah wow, And this review.

400
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Speaker 5: It's the reason the United Kingdom went on last year

401
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 5: to ban puberty blockers in all four countries within it.

402
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 5: They started in England, then they spread it out to Scotland,

403
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 5: Wales with their beauty blocker ban, and was recently right

404
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 5: before New Year's they banned it in Northern Ireland. And

405
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 5: because of this, so many clinics are now just not

406
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Speaker 5: treating transple including transgender adults. They are out transgender adults

407
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 5: not getting the care they need. Yeah, because of something

408
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 5: ton't even discuss trans adults in a meaningful capacity.

409
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Speaker 9: Yeah.

410
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 3: And that's and that's part of the thing with the

411
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Speaker 3: Cast Review, right, is that, like, you know, it literally

412
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 3: like it could have just been like seven hundred pages

413
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Speaker 3: of fuck you over and over again and it would

414
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Speaker 3: have had the same effects, because the point of the

415
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 3: Cast Review wasn't actually to like establish anything medically. It

416
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 3: was to just have a document that you could point

417
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Speaker 3: at and then justify any policy whatsoever. Like it's it's

418
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Speaker 3: kind of like it's kind of like the way the

419
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Speaker 3: Gambits and the Bell Curve works were, like none of

420
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Speaker 3: the actual policy recommendations follow from any of the arguments

421
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 3: that they're making. But it exists so that you can

422
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 3: make those policy arguments and then point to like, oh

423
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 3: it's because of IQ and this is this is the

424
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 3: same like bullshit IQ, like fake IQ science, right, Like.

425
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Speaker 5: There's literally IQ science used to justify the puberty blocker band.

426
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 10: Of course there is why they are claiming that puberty

427
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 10: blockers reduce IQ using a STO from like two thousand

428
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 10: and one on one of the and a separate study

429
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 10: on show god, a separate study on fucking sheep.

430
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Speaker 5: How are you measuring the IQ of sheep?

431
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 3: Like yeah, okay, yeah, we wheeled in the sheep to

432
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 3: do the fucking Army standard amplitude test. Like ah, it'

433
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 3: scored real bad. Give it puberty blockers and it scored

434
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Speaker 3: even worse.

435
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 5: It gets garbage science.

436
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, but one of the important things, like cocclusions here

437
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: is that, like so one of the one of the

438
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 3: sort of things that's happening now is that fucking feral

439
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 3: attack dog. I don't know fuckings sue me, you motherfucker.

440
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: We won the revolution. Each shit west Streeting who's now

441
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 3: running British Healthcare, issued a fucking thing to to ban

442
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 3: puberty blockers for trans youth, you know, and he cites

443
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: the Cash Report. Do you know what's not in the

444
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 3: Cash Report? A recommendation to ban puberty blockers? Do you

445
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: know what these fucking he doing you anyways? Because that's

446
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 3: the actual sort of purpose of the report is to

447
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 3: serve as sort of like just a kind of like

448
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 3: talisman you can hold up and say, ha, see this

449
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 3: is justified. Yeah, and can you talk about the whistleblowers

450
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 3: and the Cast report too, because this is the thing

451
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: that I has seen very very little coverage that is

452
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 3: extremely important.

453
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 7: Yeah.

454
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 5: So the whistleblowers, they literally reached out to the Cast

455
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 5: while she was writing the review. She had to be like, hey,

456
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 5: restricting puberty blockers isn't good. And like you said, Pass

457
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 5: did not recommend to ban puberty blockers. She called for

458
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 5: more research into it and like some restriction, but not

459
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 5: an outgrade band that was not anywhere within it. Even

460
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 5: with her extremism, she's like, maybe we shouldn't restrict everything completely,

461
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 5: you know, maybe we should just de transition some of

462
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 5: the kids. But she did not advocate for a full

463
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 5: on ban, and she has even gone public into the

464
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 5: media to clarify that she has does not believe in

465
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 5: a hole on ban and yet she ignored the whistleblowers.

466
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 5: She ignored them when they came to her being like, hey,

467
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 5: there's evidence that restricting pubery blockers is haunting these depths

468
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 5: record and she didn't do anything. We don't know the

469
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 5: specifics of that conversation. That's not public information. But you

470
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 5: read the cast review, you're not coming away with it thinking,

471
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 5: oh boy, she's really concerned about kids who are killing themselves. Yeah,

472
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 5: you're coming away with it thinking she doesn't believe a

473
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 5: shit and she has her own agenda.

474
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so okay, we're going to take another ad break,

475
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 3: and then we're going to get to the promise second

476
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 3: cover up, and we're back for cover up number two.

477
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 3: So okay, we have now introduced briefly the fucking spawn

478
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 3: of Satan himself, West Reading. Can you talk a little

479
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 3: bit more about him and the cover up that he

480
00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 3: commissioned of this?

481
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 5: So yeah, when I broke this story, it was getting

482
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 5: no coverage. No other news outlet wanted to touch it.

483
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 5: There were actually some journalists I talked to I'm not

484
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 5: going to name any names, but journalists I talked to

485
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 5: you who are trying to get their editors to publish

486
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 5: a story on these claims and they were like, m

487
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 5: I don't think so. I think we're going to do that.

488
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 5: It's too speculative and things like that. People were actively

489
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 5: shutting it down, especially in the British media. Yeah, and

490
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 5: for about a month the NHS was nordness and not

491
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 5: getting public comment. Enter West streaming. You said, he is

492
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 5: the head of British Healthcare officially, is like fucking the

493
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 5: head of the Secretary of State for Help and Social

494
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 5: Care some shit like that. But he's a sellout. He's

495
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 5: a labor guy, you know, the party that's supposed to

496
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 5: be at least kind of left wing and some and

497
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 5: he threw trans people under the bus the first chance

498
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 5: he got, right after Turf started pressing him for it

499
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 5: was streating in all his awful, awful glory, looked at

500
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 5: Mullgan's thread and thought, what if I denied this? So

501
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 5: he commissioned Professor Lewis Appleby or Appleby. He is a

502
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 5: leading suicide researcher he at the University of Manchester. Except

503
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 5: even though he's been in the field of suicide research

504
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 5: for decades, in the past year or so he's been

505
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 5: cozying up to a lot of antutrians people. Yeah, there's

506
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 5: shipped ton of tweets of him basically talking to turfs,

507
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 5: repeating the oh you can't have men and women's sports nonsense,

508
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 5: you can. What does him going down the pipeline?

509
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just he's a he's a turf. Yeah, like

510
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 3: that's the.

511
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's a the turf. He's a turf. Who I

512
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 5: do you does not professionally really work with Transius commits suicide.

513
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 5: He does not discuss LGBTQ issues in his brieft arch

514
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 5: as his primary focus. He does it for the general population.

515
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

516
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 5: I haven't read every single study of his, so it's

517
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 5: probably as like one or two that talk about LGBQ

518
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 5: suicide rates. But by no means is he like the

519
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 5: guy you go to to learn about why suicide attempts

520
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 5: and suicide rates are a thing in the LGBTQ population.

521
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 5: West Reading was like, Hey, Lewis, do you want to

522
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 5: write a quote unquote debunking of Margam's dread. So enter

523
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 5: the I have it up right now. They quote review

524
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 5: of Suicide from Gender Dysphoria at the Tavistock and Portman

525
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 5: NHS Foundation Trust Independent Report. This guy, he basically claimed

526
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 5: that Nope, there's no data for this. Actually Mogam's wrong

527
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 5: is that data pans it out. The data doesn't lie.

528
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: It's also funny because his argument is that trans people

529
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: were already killing themselves. Yeah, it was just like it

530
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 3: was really fucking plaque you think about it. But now there's.

531
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 5: Gripes a million breaths of people could have with this.

532
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 5: For start, the data set is obviously too small to

533
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 5: analyze fucking statistically. Makes no sense to try to do

534
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 5: a fucking in death satistical analysis on what marg was

535
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 5: claiming with sixteen kids. That's not but you're not going

536
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 5: to get shit out of that. That's not really a

537
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 5: big issue with it. The big issue that Mogum himself

538
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 5: actually pointed out. In the same day that this came out,

539
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 5: Logan pointed out that this analysis was just wrong from

540
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 5: the start. For starters, this guy analyzed quote current and

541
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 5: former patients of under Identity Service. Malcolm's claims weren't about that.

542
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 5: Malcom's claims were about those who were on the waiting list.

543
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 3: Which is which which is just nuts. Like it is

544
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 3: up here for a second, it's like the difference between

545
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: again on the waiting list and have finished care, like, what, yeah,

546
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: what are we doing here? Oh god, how did this

547
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 3: get past any be the outlet? I mean tretsphobia?

548
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 5: But like really yeah, now there's other problems with what

549
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 5: It's kind of suspicious. So applebye, Applebee. However he pronounce

550
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 5: his last name, He's.

551
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: Gonna call him Applebee's because fuck him Applebee's.

552
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 4: Fuck it.

553
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 5: He used data directly provided by NHS inclin. Now student

554
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 5: viewers will notice something. Magham never claimed to access data

555
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 5: directly given to them from NHS Acland. He was given

556
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 5: data from whistleblowers. Magham actually in this direct because he

557
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 5: wrote a whole debunking this debunking, and Morgan was like,

558
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 5: he revealed that he actually a month before this was published,

559
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 5: he reached out to NHS angling to be like, hey,

560
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 5: can I have your data on this subject. I've gotten

561
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 5: a lot of information I want to try to corroborate it.

562
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 5: They denied him the data. They just denied him it.

563
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember incorrectly. Part of it was they claimed

564
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: the data didn't exist.

565
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, they claimed it didn't exist, that they just

566
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 5: didn't have it at all, and something. They pulled that

567
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 5: up in air for good old Applebee's well, there's some

568
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 5: other insure inconsistencies. As we know, Mogham had receipts he

569
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 5: provided information on minutes directly from NHS meetings discussing these suicides.

570
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 5: The minutes don't match up to the data Applebee's has.

571
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 5: Applebee's is underestimating everything. And yeah, very recently, this has

572
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 5: not gotten any media coverage at all. Those who have

573
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 5: been following UK politics for a while, especially trans politics,

574
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 5: remember the unfortunate case of Alice Linn. Yeah, she was

575
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 5: a young trientleman who committed suicide as advantage of this

576
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 5: wait lists years ago. Her mother, Er Litman, has been

577
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 5: a staunch outline trans people since. She's been one of

578
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 5: the excusest people in the UK to be like, hey, no,

579
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 5: I'm I'm putting my all behind trans people. She's wonderful.

580
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 5: She came out publicly revealing that Alice Litman was not

581
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 5: included in Applebe's data set, even though she should have been.

582
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 5: She was within Yeah the years. So what this says

583
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 5: is that Applebee's had bad data that didn't include every kid.

584
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, here's the thing we don't know about that, right,

585
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 3: It's possible he had bad data. It's possible he's also

586
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 3: just been falsifying his data because like again, he won't

587
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: show it to us, so we have no fucking idea

588
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 3: what like what he was, what he was actually provided

589
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 3: with and what he was like you know what, or

590
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: what things he did to the It says that he

591
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 3: was given beforehand to produce what he's analyzing in his report.

592
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 5: True, and there was of course a bunch of smaller

593
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 5: issues you could point out with Applebee's review, but the

594
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 5: crux of it, it's bogus data is a matchup. As

595
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 5: you said, he could be falsifying it. He could have

596
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 5: just been given bad data. We don't know. He's not

597
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 5: sharing anything. The NHS isn't sharing anything. Yeah, but all

598
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 5: we know is that there's major inconsistencies and they they're

599
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 5: not doing shit with it. And this is where we

600
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 5: enter everyone's favorite mainstream media, the lovely British media specifically

601
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 5: outlooks like the BBC right literally within the first twenty

602
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 5: four hours of this review coming out, they've applored it

603
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 5: on it. At this point, my coverage has been there

604
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 5: for a month. It loggam's claims have been out there

605
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 5: for a month. They weren't touched them, and yet the

606
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 5: moment someone came out with the NHS trying to be like,

607
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 5: actually it's false. They were rush to report on it

608
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 5: something they claimed was not newsworthy Previously. Yeah, and mind you,

609
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,479
Speaker 5: Mougam's rebuttal to this review was posted publicly at this time,

610
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 5: at the time that this media coverage was going up.

611
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 5: At the BBC article breaking the story up, the only

612
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 5: discussion they give to basically any issues with this is

613
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 5: just a couple of brief sentences talking about Mogam's issues

614
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 5: with him. At the beginning, they just claimed that Morgan

615
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 5: had profound difficulties and at the very end of the article,

616
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 5: buried at the bottom, they gave Mogam like three sentences,

617
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 5: and they left out a lot of information, like the

618
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 5: minutes Muggham showed that he got from whistleblowers, the exact

619
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 5: claims he got from whistle blowers. They just didn't report

620
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 5: on it. They they gave such intense coverage to alt

621
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 5: these Applebee's claims in the review, and then they just

622
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 5: plot o ignored everything Magham was singing, everything everyone else

623
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 5: was doing. Now again I add, sure we don't know

624
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 5: for sure whether who's telling the truth, but the NHS

625
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 5: has an incentive to lie here, Magham doesn't. Magham is

626
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 5: getting his career torch basically because they go going forward

627
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 5: about all this.

628
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 3: And you can tell which side the BBC is on.

629
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: You know, they give the game away at the end

630
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 3: where they give the last word of this article to

631
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 3: Ken Barker, who is the chief executive the LGB Alliance,

632
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 3: which is an anti transait group, and you know, and

633
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 3: they give her the last sentence saying that trans people

634
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 3: are spreading misinformation to serve a dangerous and homophobic ideology.

635
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: And I like, quite specifically, like Kate Barker, if you

636
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 3: ever fucking listen to this, fuck you eat shit, Like

637
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 3: this is direct evidence that of the BBC's fucking political

638
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 3: line here, because again they're giving the closing statement to

639
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: a group that is literally just an anti transacor because

640
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,479
Speaker 3: the BBC is the institutional is to institutional fucking media

641
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 3: arm of the British government, and the British government is

642
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 3: institutionally transphobic.

643
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'm not gonna say that what the information

644
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 5: right now, we have a definite news that's not the problem.

645
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 5: The problem is this have been being investigated any non

646
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 5: biased fucking NHS, any non biased British, Yeah, would look

647
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 5: at Moggan's claims and think, oh wow, we should look

648
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 5: into this, we should independently verify. Yeah, we should try

649
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 5: to cor operate everything saying, or at least see if

650
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 5: he's accurate, which which again, and I want to put

651
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 5: this out this is the job of a journalist. The

652
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 5: job of a journalist is not to fucking literally reprint

653
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 5: a press report from fucking like commissioned by the fucking government.

654
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 5: Your job is to go find the fucking whistleblowers and

655
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 5: talk to people. Did the British Did the fucking BBC

656
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 5: do this? No, of course they didn't, because they're fucking

657
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 5: PR hacks. Yep, they're PR hacks for a transgendocide. And

658
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 5: like quite frankly, and I will say this on the

659
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 5: fucking record, because I'm not a journalist, fuck these people,

660
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 5: like this is this is what the BBC wants, Like

661
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,399
Speaker 5: fucking dead trans kids and a cover up is what

662
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 5: they institutionally what this fucking organization wants because they fucking

663
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 5: hate trans people and they are completely okay with all

664
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 5: of this shit happening as long as long as they

665
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 5: fucking get to do another story about how fucking JK

666
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 5: Rowling is a brave truth teller or whatever like this,

667
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 5: this is what these people want. I agree, and I

668
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 5: also agree with your statement. Uh, the British media cannot

669
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 5: call fuck themselves and I hope they've Robben. Hell yeah,

670
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 5: I don't know how you can, as a journalist, someone

671
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 5: trained to prioritize the truth and nothing but the truth,

672
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 5: look at all this and think this is suspicious going

673
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 5: on here. There's nothing that warrant further investigation, even if

674
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 5: Malcolm's claims are false, right, even if everything Malcolm says

675
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 5: he made it up. He's an influential guy. He has

676
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 5: been covered by the media for his lawsuits with the

677
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 5: Good Law Project countless time before. He's made national headlines there.

678
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 5: And they don't investigate this at all, Like, yeah, they're

679
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 5: rushing to report on everything fucking JK Rowling says everything

680
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 5: some random fucking turf is saying, May Angelou whoever ter

681
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 5: if you want to run?

682
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm realizing there are people listening to this.

683
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe you're still listening to the episode

684
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 3: and you don't know about the JK rolling Turf stuff,

685
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 3: but like to get an understanding of like how vehement

686
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 3: of like an anti trans hate figure she is, Like

687
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: anti trans groups literally wear her face as a mask.

688
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 3: Like I'm not joking. She she she fucking retweeted them

689
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 3: an anti trans group literally wearing like printed out copies

690
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 3: of her face as a mask. Like that is that?

691
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 3: That is the status that she has in the anti

692
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 3: trans world right, Like and then the VBC fucking loves

693
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: her so everything she does and she's not even an

694
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 3: expert in anything.

695
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 5: She's a fucking author of children's books.

696
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 3: Like yeah, you know it's like, well, we'll talk to

697
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 3: the authors of Sheldon's book when we talk to trans people, know,

698
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 3: And I mean that's what ever thing about this is,

699
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 3: Like the BBC never talked to a transperson. They did

700
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 3: talk to an anti transhaite group though, so you know,

701
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 3: you know, you know what fucking side of this is

702
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 3: considered valid by the British political and media establishment. Oh

703
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 3: and also at the bottom and like, I know that

704
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: they're doing this because this is just like standard policy

705
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 3: for like if you're doing a thing story about suicide,

706
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 3: but the very end of the article is a is

707
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 3: a link to a bunch of suicide and crisis hotlines,

708
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 3: So uh, one last fuck you to every transperson reading this. Yeah,

709
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 3: the one two punch of we quoted an anti trans

710
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 3: hate figure, here's a suicide hotline is like real, who.

711
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a it's a fucking insult it.

712
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 7: Yeah.

713
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 5: It just gets me how they didn't report on these

714
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 5: claims at all when they were initially made, Like it

715
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 5: didn't even have to be a big story, Like most

716
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 5: fucking outlets I've written for would have just reported as like,

717
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 5: oh this, this guy said this, we're waiting more information, okay, whatever.

718
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 5: It wouldn't be a good reporting, but it'd be the

719
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 5: bare minimum. We didn't even do that. They rushed to

720
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 5: just to repeat whatever the fuck. A commission review from

721
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 5: the government said, that's more reputable, I guess than you know,

722
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 5: leading advocates who actually cited their sources instead of just

723
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 5: during shit at the wall.

724
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: Yep, And I think that's that's That's as good of

725
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 3: a place as endy to stop. Less you have anything

726
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 3: else you want to make sure people know about about this, No,

727
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 3: I think that's it. Yeah, thank you so much for

728
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 3: coming on the show. And where can people find you

729
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: in your work?

730
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 5: Yeah? Thank you for having me. I I can primarily

731
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 5: be found on Blue Sky That is the main place

732
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 5: I post now. Yeah, I'm at meural u gene a

733
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 5: blue sky dot social. Beyond that, you'll probably see one

734
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 5: of my articles published around because I am constantly working

735
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 5: my ass off.

736
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is what it could happen here. Yeah,

737
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, there's still time for this

738
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 3: not to happen here. So yeah, go go organize and

739
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 3: go make West Reading and the BBC have a bad day.

740
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 4: Hell yeah, hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here.

741
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 4: It's me James today here to bring you more terrible

742
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 4: news about migration and deportation. And I'm joined to share

743
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 4: that terrible news by Gillian Bruckell, a journalist who has

744
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 4: been tracking deportation flights to dbooty. Hi Gillian, Hi, how

745
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 4: are you?

746
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 5: James?

747
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 4: I'm good. Well, amidst the crumbling of everything, that's wonderful.

748
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, this is terrible news, but I'm also

749
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 11: very excited to be in the Cool Zone Universe.

750
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: I love all of the shows.

751
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, welcome, welcome to the called universe. It's the Sophie

752
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 4: Lichtman comic universe.

753
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god, such a fangirl.

754
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 4: Okay, the United States government attempted to deport twelve men,

755
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 4: none of whom are Libyan, to Libya on the seventh

756
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 4: of May. Right, it got so far as to take

757
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 4: them to the airport right in San Antonio, in San Antonio, Texas.

758
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 4: And then thanks to a injunction court injunction, those people

759
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 4: were not taken to Libya. Those people were in said,

760
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 4: returned to an intention center. Where as listeners the show

761
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 4: will now be aware they were informed that they were

762
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 4: being deported renditioned, how you want to say it, to

763
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 4: South Sudan. This news broke a couple of days ago, now,

764
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 4: I think Tuesday, Tuesday afternoon, yeah, yeah, and that was

765
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 4: when you were able to begin using your or like

766
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 4: o in aviation knowledge looking for like this this flight

767
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 4: right that was taking him to Seal Sudan, because at

768
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 4: the time, yeah, the United States government was claiming that

769
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 4: the flight was was classified or like a state secret.

770
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 4: And even in court the judge wasn't aware of the

771
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 4: flight was in the air on the ground, could it

772
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 4: turn around? Judging the anthony was going to ask it

773
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 4: to turn around. So I wonder if you could like

774
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 4: walk listeners through the time none of this deportation and

775
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 4: then how you were able to find of millions of

776
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 4: maybe not million, thousands of planes in the sky the

777
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 4: one that was taking these people to as it turned

778
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 4: out to Jubooty.

779
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 5: Sure.

780
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 11: Yeah, So I've been a journalist for fifteen years, but

781
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 11: before that, I was a flight attendant. And you know,

782
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 11: I'm an av geek, an aviation enthusiast. The shorthand you know,

783
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 11: the hashtag for that is af geek, And so you know,

784
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 11: I'm always looking at flight Radar twenty four. It's an

785
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 11: app where you can track different aircraft. And so when

786
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 11: I heard that the flight might still be in the air,

787
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 11: I just thought, I wonder if I can find it,

788
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 11: so I win. First I went on to flight Radar

789
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 11: twenty four, and first I looked at all of the

790
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 11: departures out of San Antonio for like the previous twenty

791
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 11: four hours since the previous flight that was supposed to

792
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 11: go to Libya that was stopped, that departed from San Antonio.

793
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 3: And so I was.

794
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 11: Looking there and you know, didn't see anything just commercial flights,

795
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 11: very obviously military flights, and I know they've used military

796
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 11: aircraft sometimes, but I said, I'm not going to try

797
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 11: and touch that right now. I want to see if

798
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 11: it's one of these charter companies, you know, global X,

799
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 11: a Vello, that have been doing these deportation flights.

800
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 4: Can you explain those to people, because I don't think

801
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:50,439
Speaker 4: everyone's aware of those.

802
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 11: So these are you know, commercial carriers, but they're they're

803
00:46:54,680 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 11: contracting with DHS to deport people on their So you know,

804
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 11: the A three twenty that you take across the country

805
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 11: is sometimes used to deport people to other countries. And

806
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,919
Speaker 11: the main companies that are doing that right now are

807
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 11: a Vello, global X. I think Omni does some of

808
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 11: them sometimes. And I should say there are a lot

809
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 11: of people, especially on Blue Sky, a lot of av

810
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 11: geeks who are tracking and cataloging all of these flights.

811
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 11: I wasn't even aware of that community until I started

812
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 11: looking for so I didn't see anything, you know, in

813
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 11: San Antonio, and then I realized, oh, these people had

814
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 11: been transferred to Port Isabelle in the last few weeks,

815
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 11: so they would have departed out of Harlingen Airport, which

816
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 11: is nearby. It's you know, a deep deep South Texas,

817
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 11: and so I looked at departures out of harling and

818
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 11: it's a small airport. They have like ten departures a day,

819
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 11: and it's generally puddle jumpers from one small Texas town

820
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 11: to another small Texas town, you know. And there was

821
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 11: one global X flight to Miami the day before. The

822
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 11: timeline wasn't exactly right, but I know that DHS, you know,

823
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 11: has been slow to notify attorneys. Yeah, so I thought, well,

824
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 11: maybe this is the flight, and they just didn't tell

825
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 11: the attorneys till the next day.

826
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: So then I spent way.

827
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 11: Too much time looking at all of the departures out

828
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 11: of Miami to see if there were any Global X flights.

829
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 11: I saw a few things, but you know, nothing heading

830
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 11: across the Atlantic. And so at that point, Flight Radar

831
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 11: twenty four will show you publicly available information on flights.

832
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: It won't show you all flights.

833
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 11: But there is another you know, for like deep deep

834
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 11: ab geeks, there's another website called ADSB Exchange, and this

835
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 11: is a pool of all feeder data all over the

836
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 11: world of all aircraft in the air that aviation enthusiasts

837
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 11: maintain themselves. And they will have military flights that aren't

838
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 11: going to be on Flight Radar twenty four. They also

839
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 11: have a lot more information about planes that have a

840
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 11: lad designation, which stands for Limited Aviation Data displayed. I

841
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 11: don't know how much you want me to explain about that.

842
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, explain, explain. I think it's interesting for people.

843
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 11: Sure, So LAD designation is used most often for like

844
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 11: private jet owners, like celebrities and you know, the ultra rich.

845
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 11: And basically it means that they have an extra layer

846
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 11: of privacy for their movements in their private jets. So

847
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 11: if you try and find a specific private jet on flight.

848
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: Radar twenty four, it won't come up.

849
00:49:59,320 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 5: You know.

850
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 11: So, the the tail of this plane that did the

851
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 11: Jibouty flight is N five AA eight eight a T.

852
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 11: If you search for that in flight radar twenty four,

853
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 11: you won't see it.

854
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: Nothing will come up.

855
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:17,919
Speaker 11: However, if you know what you're looking for, if you know, like, oh,

856
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 11: I think the flight is heading to Jibouti right now,

857
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 11: you can see on flight radar twenty four that there's

858
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 11: a Gulf Stream five headed to Jabooti right now, but

859
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 11: the registration information is obscured. Okay, you know it's not

860
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 11: like that on the ADSB you can you can see it. Yeah,

861
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 11: your filters have a lot more power. Basically, you know

862
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 11: your search terms, they're going to go around different designations, okay,

863
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 11: and so some people hate that. You know, Taylor Swift

864
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 11: had beef with some guy a couple of years ago

865
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 11: because she has a LAD designation on her private jet.

866
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 11: He was using ADSB exchange to post her flights, you know,

867
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 11: ostensibly for to shame her for her carbon footprint. But

868
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 11: then she threatened to sue him. And she was like,

869
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 11: I have stalkers, like I don't want them to know

870
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 11: when I'm landing in Nashville. You know, not going to

871
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 11: get into that, but you know, that's basically the LAD

872
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 11: designation and ADSB doesn't care. And so I went on

873
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 11: ADSB and I said, well, since I've already seen all

874
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 11: the publicly available flights, let me just look at LAD flights, okay.

875
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: And so I set that filter.

876
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 11: And that took it down to a couple hundred planes

877
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 11: in the air, and I honestly just got lucky. I

878
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 11: just started clicking on planes because I don't know how

879
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 11: to search for all departures out of one airport on

880
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 11: ADSP exchange. I'm sure AV geeks who are better at

881
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 11: it do, but I just started clicking on planes and

882
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 11: I clicked I think like the third plane that I

883
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 11: clicked on had taken off out of Harlingen a couple

884
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 11: hours earlier and was over the middle of the Atlantic,

885
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 11: which is not a usual departure for Harlingen.

886
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, that's quite a.

887
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 11: D and so you know, I posted on Blue Sky

888
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 11: to the other av geeks who were looking for it.

889
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: I think this might be it.

890
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 11: You know, it's a private jet with a LAD designation

891
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 11: that took off from this very obscure airport and is

892
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 11: traveling internationally. Nothing else really fit the profile, right, so

893
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 11: we all started looking at it. Another reporter named Jacqueline Sweet.

894
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 11: You know, I looked up the registration. It's registered to

895
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 11: a man named Igor Smirnov, which there are a lot

896
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 11: of Igor Smirnov's.

897
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a pretty common name.

898
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 11: He's not the Chess guy, he's not the Moldovan guy.

899
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 11: He appears to have once owned an airline in his

900
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 11: Pakistan and has been in the US for some time.

901
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 11: So he has, you know, this private jet. And then

902
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 11: Jacqueline Sweet looked up that yes, he has DHS contracts.

903
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 4: Okay.

904
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: Then the other thing was.

905
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 11: I just googled the tail number M five eight eight.

906
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: One of the first things that came up was that

907
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: this was the.

908
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 11: Private jet that carried Britney Griner home from Russia when

909
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 11: she had been released in a prisoner swap. Yeah, and

910
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 11: so that, you know, was the thing where I was like, okay,

911
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 11: this this plane's been used for like weird government business before.

912
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I think I think this might be it. Yeah,

913
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: so that's when I posted.

914
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 11: Once I realized the Britney Grinder thing, then I posted

915
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,399
Speaker 11: it and other people, other av geeks were saying, yeah,

916
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 11: I think that might be it, and then you know,

917
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 11: Jacqueline got more info on the contracts and so this

918
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 11: is for about two hours we watched it and JJ

919
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 11: and DC said I think it's about to land in Shannon,

920
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 11: and you know, soon enough it descended and landed at Shannon.

921
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:16,280
Speaker 11: So Shannon Airport in Ireland is a frequent refueling stop

922
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 11: for the US military, and you know that's something that

923
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 11: a lot of Irish people really fucking hate.

924
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. Not a US base, to be clear if people don't.

925
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 11: Away, Yeah, it's not a US base. These are this

926
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 11: is US military that are just they're just refueling, but

927
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 11: they're refueling to you know, do a lot of things

928
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 11: that the Irish are not okay with Yeah, and so

929
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 11: there's there's an organization there called Shannon Watch, who you know,

930
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 11: they're watching all these US activities and you know, pressuring

931
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 11: the government to stop this. So, you know, I tried

932
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 11: to email them before the plane even landed. And I

933
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 11: don't know if it was the user air on my

934
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 11: end or you know, if I don't know why I

935
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 11: didn't work, but they didn't get the message.

936
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 1: I only found that out like half an hour ago.

937
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 11: Yeah, But so I messaged them, and then I like

938
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 11: messaged a couple friends in Ireland like.

939
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 4: Hey, wake up, wake up.

940
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: You didn't call somebody, you know.

941
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 11: But there's two thirty in the morning. I'm glad my

942
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:30,320
Speaker 11: friends were asleep. And yeah. So I don't know how

943
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 11: how much I wanted to get into my personal hedging

944
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 11: or my journey. But you know, I used to be

945
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 11: like a neutral, objective journalist at the Washington Post for

946
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 11: ten years and I left a year and a half ago,

947
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 11: and I've been enjoying being an opinionated journalist. I've been

948
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 11: writing a book. But you know, there's a difference between

949
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 11: being an opinionated journalist and actually interfering in a story. Yeah,

950
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 11: and so I kind of hedged from an of like

951
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 11: should I should I do anything else? Should I actively

952
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:08,359
Speaker 11: participate in trying to stop this flight? You know, am

953
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 11: I not going to get a columns job someday if

954
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 11: I do that? Yeah, you know, I'm ashamed to say that.

955
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 11: But I have to tell the truth. That's what I thought.

956
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:21,359
Speaker 11: And then I just decided, you know, screw it, I

957
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 11: have to do the right thing. So I called the

958
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 11: Shannon Airport police.

959
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 1: I called the Shannon Garda.

960
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 11: I called the police, the garden in Ireland and h

961
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 11: I talked to you know whatever man answered for like

962
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 11: a minute, and then he was like, let me let me,

963
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 11: you know, knock you up the chain. And I was

964
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 11: forwarded to someone else, to a woman who you know,

965
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 11: she sounded smart, urgent, interested, It sounded like she was

966
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 11: taking notes. It sounded like she was taking this seriously.

967
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,359
Speaker 11: And I was saying, there's a play with this tail

968
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 11: number that landed fifteen minutes ago, that may have people

969
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 11: on board who have been illegally removed from the United States,

970
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 11: who have not consented to go to their destination, who

971
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 11: are being sent to South Sudan when they are not

972
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 11: from Sauth Sudan. You know, and I made clear that, like,

973
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 11: I don't know that this is the right plane, but

974
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 11: I'm pretty sure that it is. This plane has been

975
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 11: used before for US government business. And I said, I

976
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 11: know that our judges' orders don't matter in your sovereign country,

977
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 11: but a judge has said this is not allowed, and

978
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 11: it might be happening. And I don't know what your

979
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 11: human trafficking laws are like, but you should know that

980
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 11: if there are human trafficking or kidnapping laws in Ireland

981
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 11: that might apply to this, like maybe check the plane. Yeah,

982
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 11: and you know, I didn't record the call and I

983
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 11: didn't take notes, but I do recall her saying that

984
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 11: she was trying to send someone to check the plane,

985
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 11: and she was, you know, taking detailed notes.

986
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 1: What are their nationalities? How many are there?

987
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 12: You know?

988
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 11: And yes, so you know, the call lasted thirteen minutes,

989
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 11: and then I waited, you know, was talking with the

990
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 11: other av geeks on Blue Sky who were at this point,

991
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 11: you know, this is around ten pm.

992
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: It's getting a little late.

993
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 11: And then yeah, I don't know what happened, but the

994
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,479
Speaker 11: plane taxi to a parking stamp near the terminal for

995
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 11: a while, and I thought, oh, it's been it's been

996
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 11: turned off, it's parked for the night. I don't think

997
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 11: they're going to let him leave. Yeah, and then the

998
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 11: plane took off. It was two hours after it landed.

999
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1000
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it went to JABOUTI where it remains at

1001
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 4: the time of recording. Yeah, it's been raised since you

1002
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 4: first kind of identified this plane, it's been raised. I

1003
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 4: talked to Dallas or like an Irish member of parliament

1004
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 4: raised it today. I saw there was an exchange about it.

1005
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 4: I spoke to Paul Murphy, who's the TV for Dublin's Southwest. Paul,

1006
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 4: get me a statement I'm going to read here. The

1007
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 4: very least Sierrish government must do is to inform the

1008
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 4: US authorities that no more deportation flights are permitted to

1009
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 4: use our airspace, in our airports. We must not facilitate

1010
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 4: this in humane an illegal deportation policy. It does seem

1011
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 4: like even if nothing we're done in this instance, hopefully

1012
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 4: this isn't something that will be able to happen again.

1013
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 4: I know, as you said, people have been upset about

1014
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 4: that use of Shannon. I think they used Knock Airport

1015
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 4: as well, like for a long time because the US

1016
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 4: use them a lot in the in the in its

1017
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 4: war on terror. An Ireland has been a neutral country

1018
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 4: for a long time, and that's a feeling that it

1019
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 4: compromises that among some people. But this raises a really

1020
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 4: interesting question for those of us who are following the deportations, right,

1021
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 4: which is like we've been thinking that it was happening

1022
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 4: on military or commercial flights, like you said, but there's

1023
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 4: this possibility that these smaller planes are being used for deportation,

1024
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 4: and like that's very concerning. I means we could have

1025
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 4: missed things absolutely. It also shows the timeline here is

1026
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:44,919
Speaker 4: extraordinarily rapid, right, Like from the people being informed at

1027
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 4: six pm, I believe it's six pm Pacific. I've been

1028
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:50,919
Speaker 4: spending a lot of time on Pacer this week. Yeah,

1029
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 4: good old Pacer yep, A lot of the money generated

1030
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 4: by the adverts in this show on Pacer. So six

1031
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 4: thirty five Central time and M who is one of

1032
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 4: the Burmese people in this this class action lawsuit, right, So,

1033
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 4: the lawsuit a number of people trying to get attentative

1034
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 4: restraining order against being sent to South Soudan now previously Libya,

1035
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 4: six eighty five Central time. That person's lawyer was told

1036
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 4: that they had an order of removal at nine am Pacific.

1037
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 4: The lawyer had scheduled of video conference, but at eight

1038
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 4: twenty seven Pacific, they were told that that person had

1039
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 4: already been removed. Yeah, so pretty fast. And like perhaps

1040
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 4: that's why they're using these like small can you give

1041
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 4: an idea of like, I guess a lot of people

1042
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 4: weren't a phone on a small aircraft, but these are

1043
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 4: quite like this isn't a usual thing, right to be

1044
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 4: be No.

1045
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 1: This is a luxury jet.

1046
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 11: Yeah, that you know is moonlighting as a prisoner vessel

1047
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 11: for for kidnappers. And I just I'm so struck by

1048
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 11: the dichotomy of the law luxury of this vessel transporting

1049
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 11: them to Hell, to a country where they do not

1050
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 11: speak the language, they have no family or friends, to

1051
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 11: you know, a prison where people are being tortured that

1052
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 11: is about to descend into civil war, may already be

1053
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 11: in civil war. I mean the economy of that is

1054
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 11: so striking to me. Yeah, and so perverse.

1055
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, perverse is a right word. It is, like it's uh,

1056
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 4: perversely ludicrous. I don't know, Like it's so striking to

1057
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 4: me as well that somebody who has the financial means

1058
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 4: to own a private luxury jet to find themselves around

1059
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 4: the world. Is also profiting of the rendition of people

1060
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 4: who are trying now to plead in Convention against torture. Right,

1061
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 4: they will be tortured if they are flown via luxury

1062
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 4: private jet to South Sudan, and that South Sudanese government

1063
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 4: seems to have stated that it would just return them

1064
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 4: to their countries from which they have withholding in for

1065
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 4: movement in the first spaces. Why the US can't send

1066
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 4: them to their countries.

1067
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 11: Right, That's why the US hasn't done it, right, It's like,

1068
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 11: you know, it's a diplomatic pickle. But like the solution

1069
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 11: is in, we'll just you know, dump them somewhere else.

1070
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, and then they have someone else do iday work,

1071
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 4: like send them back. Right. You found these contracts. Do

1072
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 4: you know how much DHS is spending like per flight

1073
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 4: on these things?

1074
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 1: I have no idea.

1075
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 11: I mean that is something that other reporters, I think,

1076
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 11: are you know, going to be better sources of that information.

1077
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 11: I've really just begun tracking these flights, right, you know,

1078
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 11: I like to track flights all the time.

1079
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: Just because I have ADHD.

1080
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 11: You know, it's a wonderful activity if you're neurodivergent to

1081
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 11: spend some time on adsp exchange. But but like I said,

1082
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 11: I was just like, I wonder if I can find

1083
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 11: this plane?

1084
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1085
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: And I did.

1086
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 11: Yeah, And that has opened up a whole world to

1087
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 11: me of you know, really dedicated people. Tom Cartwright is one,

1088
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 11: and then JJ and DC is another. He wants to

1089
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 11: remain anonymous, got it who have been tracking these planes

1090
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 11: for some time And I'm really inspired by them and

1091
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 11: you know, want to join them and help them.

1092
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 4: We see a number of issues like that. We can

1093
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 4: questions that we can answer with these things, right, the

1094
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 4: United States deporting people to Venezuela, but there are lots

1095
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 4: of eies in Venezuela which are under sanctions, right, So

1096
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 4: like how is it doing that? Who is it paying

1097
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 4: to do that? Like where is our taxpayer money going?

1098
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 4: How much is it costing to achieve this rendition of

1099
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 4: a dozen people? Right who at the current time of

1100
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 4: our recording, which is Thursday afternoon Pacific time, the twenty

1101
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 4: second of May, they go. I just checked the pacer again,

1102
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 4: which is what I do all day now, and Judge

1103
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 4: Murphy's most recent order had clarified that these people would

1104
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 4: have ten days to present their reasonable fear right, so

1105
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 4: to present their reasonable fear and convention against torture proceedings

1106
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 4: that they would be they could face torture right if

1107
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 4: they were sent to these places. If the Department of

1108
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 4: Homeland Security determined that they didn't have credible fear, then

1109
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 4: they would have fifteen days to again petition for reopening

1110
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 4: of their migration case. So that's twenty five days for

1111
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 4: those who accounting that these people will presumably now have

1112
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 4: to be accommodated in Djibouty. The DHS is claiming that

1113
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 4: they can do all these interviews and that one assess

1114
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 4: tate translators, Like one of them speaks Korn, not a

1115
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,240
Speaker 4: language that we have. I mean that there are lots

1116
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 4: of Curren speaking people in the United States, but it's

1117
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 4: you know, it's not language that many immigration lawyers speak.

1118
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 4: So I'm guessing there will have to be a translator provided.

1119
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 4: So all that is now happening into Booty and like

1120
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 4: we wouldn't have known that if we hadn't been able

1121
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 4: to track these flights, right, and so it's a very

1122
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 4: interesting way of approaching this. And I think like increasingly

1123
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 4: the government have recently lost a number of fire requests.

1124
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 4: I guess, like public records do not move at the

1125
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 4: same speed as the news cycle does. I file a

1126
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 4: lot of public records requests, most of them I don't

1127
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 4: get anything back.

1128
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: The ones that I can take like eight years sometimes.

1129
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, literally, Yeah, I mean I have public records requests

1130
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:39,160
Speaker 4: that I made under the previous Trump administration that I

1131
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 4: believe are still ongoing. Yeah, it's infuriatingly slowly. You have

1132
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 4: a right to inspect these records, but you don't have

1133
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 4: a right to inspect them in any particular time period.

1134
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 4: And so doing this kind of open source tracking offers

1135
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 4: us a window into this deportation machine that the government

1136
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 4: is building right exactly in cooperation with the super rich,

1137
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 4: like using your taxpayer resources. I would if people are

1138
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 4: interested in doing this, like, how would you suggest they

1139
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 4: kind of get going? They could explain it out there.

1140
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 11: I mean, the first thing I would do is that

1141
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 11: I would follow Tom Cartwright and JJ and DC on

1142
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 11: Blue Sky. Then you know, get the flight Radar twenty

1143
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 11: four app. You can see a lot of the charter

1144
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 11: planes on that app. ADSB Exchange is pretty buggy and

1145
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 11: hard to use. If you don't have any aviation experience

1146
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 11: at all, but you know you can learn. Yeah, and yeah,

1147
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 11: I mean, like I said, if you're neuro divergent, this

1148
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 11: is a terrific activity to just kind of like massage

1149
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 11: your brain and hyper focus, and you know, putting it

1150
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:50,200
Speaker 11: to good purpose to maybe witness or maybe even stop

1151
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 11: some of these activities from happening, you know, would be great.

1152
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1153
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 4: No, I think that's like there are countries which have

1154
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 4: strong legislation that could possibly prevent these you know, these

1155
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 4: either planes transiting their airspace or if they're refueling there

1156
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 4: as you as you said in an Ireland, like perhaps

1157
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:13,000
Speaker 4: prevent these people being renditioned to somewhere where they might

1158
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 4: face torture. And I think it's a really valuable absolutely

1159
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 4: thing to try, Like we should try whatever we can

1160
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 4: right now.

1161
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 11: Yeah, and I mean now that Ireland knows this is happening,

1162
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 11: you know, I don't know what happened with the Garda

1163
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 11: on Tuesday night early Wednesday morning. I don't know if

1164
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 11: they were able to board the plane, if they tried

1165
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 11: to stop it and couldn't.

1166
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 1: I have no idea.

1167
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 11: Yeah, now that they know this is happening, maybe they

1168
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 11: can look a little bit deeper into their laws and

1169
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 11: regulations and find a justification so that if this happens again,

1170
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:52,600
Speaker 11: they can be prepared to respond. You know, I know

1171
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 11: that the Irish are exemplars in human rights, and so

1172
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 11: you know, if anybody is going to do something, it

1173
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 11: might be them.

1174
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I know. Artie and now camped out at

1175
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 4: the airport wing for the plane to come back, which.

1176
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:07,800
Speaker 12: Yeah, I know.

1177
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:09,599
Speaker 11: I wish they had checked with the av yeks first

1178
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 11: because the plane's not on the way.

1179
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's not here.

1180
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: It hasn't left.

1181
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 4: Look at the court proceedings are going to be three weeks.

1182
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 4: But yeah, yeah, it's great. You've made this an issue there,

1183
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 4: which I think, yeah, it helps, Like all this stuff

1184
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 4: makes a difference.

1185
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 11: I mean, I just I want the Irish people to realize,

1186
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 11: because none of their lawmakers have said it yet, that

1187
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 11: Irish authorities knew when the plane was on the ground

1188
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 11: at Shannon that there were people who were possibly being

1189
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 11: illegally detained on this specific airplane.

1190
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 1: I just want them to know that.

1191
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, you know, And I'm I hear that their

1192
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:55,439
Speaker 11: public information laws are also not great, but the police

1193
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 11: there recorded the call, so there's a recording somewhere if

1194
01:09:59,560 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 11: they can.

1195
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 4: F right, I guess I can't find anyone who can

1196
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:05,640
Speaker 4: answer the satisfactory the question of like, whose jurisdiction in

1197
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 4: the plane is under?

1198
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, and it really depends too, like was

1199
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 11: the plane parked in the international transit area? Was it

1200
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 11: in a place where you know the guard I didn't

1201
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 11: even have authority.

1202
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:19,559
Speaker 1: I have no idea, right you know?

1203
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, these are real questions that we can now ask

1204
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 4: because we know right that it was there, and I

1205
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 4: think that's very valuable. Gillian, Where can people follow your work? Said?

1206
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 4: You published this on your ghost newsletter?

1207
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 5: First?

1208
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 11: Right, Yeah, I'm writing a book, so I post extremely sporadically,

1209
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 11: but I do have a ghost newsletter. It's hard, g

1210
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 11: History because it's hard. G Gillian har Ghistory dot ghost

1211
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 11: dot io. And then I'm on Blue Sky at g Brackhill.

1212
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 5: Nice.

1213
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 4: Do you I plug your book where you have the opportunity.

1214
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's not like a you know, pre

1215
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 1: order links.

1216
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 11: I'm very much still writing it, but you know, my

1217
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 11: agent will be mad at me for saying this. The

1218
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 11: working title is people that didn't know what was wrong

1219
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 11: back then? The lie at the heart of American history.

1220
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 4: I will look forward to reading that.

1221
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks for having me, James. I really appreciate it.

1222
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:37,479
Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us. Hi everyone, and welcome to the show.

1223
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 4: It's me James today and I'm joined once again by

1224
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 4: Kirsten Zitlao. We've heard from her before. She's an immigration

1225
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 4: lawyer who takes asylum cases, and we're going to talk

1226
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 4: about the asylum system or I guess what's left of it. Today.

1227
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:53,640
Speaker 4: Kirsten is representing somebody I met, the Darien gap Primrose,

1228
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:55,160
Speaker 4: who you've heard from before. So we're going to talk

1229
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:56,560
Speaker 4: about that case, and then we're going to talk a

1230
01:11:56,600 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 4: little bit about ice detentions inside immigration court. Welcome to

1231
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 4: the show.

1232
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 14: Thank you, James. It's good to be here.

1233
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for thanks for coming. I know you're extremely busy.

1234
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 4: Can you explain to us, like the asylum system is

1235
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:14,439
Speaker 4: essentially coming to an end? Right we are not getting

1236
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:17,599
Speaker 4: new asylum cases, Like what is the situation for people

1237
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 4: in the asylum system right now?

1238
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 15: Yes, that's a correct statement, James. So there are no

1239
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 15: new asylum cases. In other words, people who cross at

1240
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:34,719
Speaker 15: the southern border are now detained, only to be removed

1241
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 15: immediately basically or as soon as possible, under what's called

1242
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 15: two twelve F authority.

1243
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 14: It's under the Immigration and Nationality Act.

1244
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 15: Trump has used this authority, which basically broadly says that

1245
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 15: if the President finds a certain class of immigrants or

1246
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:56,280
Speaker 15: the entry of immigrants would be detrimental to the interests

1247
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:59,600
Speaker 15: of the United States, they may, by proclamation, you know,

1248
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:03,720
Speaker 15: spend all entry have said immigrants. So that was the

1249
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 15: purpose and the effect of the executive order discussing the

1250
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 15: invasion at the border, and all the other executive orders

1251
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 15: discussing invasions and criminal aspects such as cartels and trender ragua,

1252
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 15: which we all know now is the justification for alleged

1253
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:26,439
Speaker 15: justification for just shutting it down at the border. So

1254
01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:30,960
Speaker 15: whereas people used to get credible fear interviews or were

1255
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:33,639
Speaker 15: paroled into the United States to be allowed to fight

1256
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 15: an asylum case, none of that is happening anymore. And

1257
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:40,759
Speaker 15: people are, if anything, only screened for what's called Convention

1258
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:44,559
Speaker 15: against Torture screenings to just determine, like, hey, are they

1259
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 15: going to be tortured by their government or with the

1260
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:50,920
Speaker 15: acquiescence of their government if they're returned to their home country.

1261
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:53,040
Speaker 15: But even then they are not allowed to remain in

1262
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 15: the United States or fight any relief in the United States.

1263
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:57,280
Speaker 15: That just means that they will be deported to a

1264
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 15: third country. So that was the situation. And like when

1265
01:14:00,439 --> 01:14:03,639
Speaker 15: we saw the Iranians sitting in the hotel room and Panama,

1266
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 15: that's what happened there most likely. So that's the situation

1267
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 15: at the southern border. Whoever is still in the United States,

1268
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:12,080
Speaker 15: you know, who came in before an operation day, is

1269
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:14,880
Speaker 15: still allowed to fight their case as of now, but

1270
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 15: there are no new asylum cases essentially, right.

1271
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,280
Speaker 4: So for those people fighting their case, the asylum system

1272
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 4: was already an uphill battle, right, and it became harder

1273
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 4: after Biden's asylum ban. It was already harder after title

1274
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 4: forty two. Like people who listened to the show would

1275
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 4: have known about the people who crushed in twenty twenty three,

1276
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:39,640
Speaker 4: and of course they would have followed those people who

1277
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 4: I'm in the Darian Gap, some of whom very few

1278
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 4: of whom crushed before January. I literally one I believe

1279
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:50,799
Speaker 4: that I'm aware of. Can you explain what the asylum

1280
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:52,559
Speaker 4: system is like for those people now?

1281
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1282
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:56,599
Speaker 15: So I think the biggest two factors affecting asylum cases

1283
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:59,280
Speaker 15: these days is what you just referred to, which is

1284
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 15: the asylum called the circumvention against Lawful Pathways that barred

1285
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 15: people essentially from asylum if they did not use CBP

1286
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 15: one the application to apply for an appointment, which of

1287
01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 15: course only allowed I think fifteen hundred a day or

1288
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:19,000
Speaker 15: something absurd, forcing most people to cross unlawfully. So that's

1289
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:23,120
Speaker 15: still very much in place. The litigation has been stalled forever.

1290
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:25,720
Speaker 15: There's no hope of you know, I don't think there's

1291
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 15: no movement on that. I haven't seen or heard anything,

1292
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 15: most likely intentionally because when Trump did a similar ban,

1293
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:33,680
Speaker 15: it was overturned immediately. So this is like a new

1294
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:36,439
Speaker 15: strategy that we're seeing where things are just lagging in court.

1295
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 15: You know, for example, just a quick side detour the

1296
01:15:40,280 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 15: birthright citizenship issue got up to the Supreme Court real quick,

1297
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 15: whereas the asylum issue, meaning the border shut down to asylum,

1298
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 15: is still languishing somewhere before I think even just a

1299
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:51,719
Speaker 15: federal district, I just is not even in any appeal

1300
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:55,640
Speaker 15: court yet. So this is all I think, it's strategic,

1301
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 15: So that circumvention against Lawful Pathways ban is still very

1302
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:02,680
Speaker 15: much heediment. You know, we all of course argue that

1303
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 15: every migrant in Mexico was in danger and thus qualifies

1304
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:09,439
Speaker 15: for the exception to the CLP that their life was

1305
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 15: in danger and they couldn't afford to wait the many

1306
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:13,640
Speaker 15: many months for the CBP one appointment.

1307
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:18,559
Speaker 14: But judges it's been met with mixed reviews. They generally like.

1308
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 15: To see like somebody basically near death for the exception

1309
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:26,360
Speaker 15: to apply. And of course the immigration bar argues that

1310
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 15: all migrants are basically under threat of death. I mean,

1311
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 15: any any cartel or even immigration official contact in Mexico

1312
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:35,680
Speaker 15: could have been a death sentence very easily, as we

1313
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:38,200
Speaker 15: all know. Yeah, so that's a big thing affecting. The

1314
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:41,200
Speaker 15: latest thing that's also being implemented as a result of

1315
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 15: this cartel terrorist organization designation is you know where it's

1316
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:51,040
Speaker 15: not just the cartels, is MS thirteen and ten deo ragua,

1317
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 15: is that there's a what's called a trig bar that's

1318
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:58,839
Speaker 15: applied then also to asylum and the bar is basically

1319
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:02,559
Speaker 15: about materials port of any of these groups, but it's

1320
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:06,840
Speaker 15: construed to an absurd degree where even if you made

1321
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:10,760
Speaker 15: a bowl of food for Samaras under duress or you

1322
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 15: made payment because your kid was about to be killed, right,

1323
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 15: that's considered material support, and you're barred from asylum.

1324
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:18,760
Speaker 4: Jeez, I wondered if they would do that.

1325
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:22,599
Speaker 15: Yeah, so we're seeing that too. Other than that, I mean,

1326
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:25,320
Speaker 15: I have been fortunate to win asylum for folks under

1327
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 15: Trump two point zero.

1328
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:27,759
Speaker 14: I mean, I don't know how long.

1329
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 15: That'll still last, but judges are still you know, granting cases.

1330
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:33,680
Speaker 15: So I'm glad to see that.

1331
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:34,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1332
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 15: So that's generally what it's looked like these past four

1333
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:38,559
Speaker 15: months for Assil's.

1334
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 4: Okay, And yeah, I think it's really important that we do.

1335
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:43,960
Speaker 4: There are still possible, like victories to be had within

1336
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:46,960
Speaker 4: the court system, and asylum is one of the places where,

1337
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 4: like there's no more getting me on the train. I

1338
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 4: guess like the people who are on the train now

1339
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 4: we can and people should if they have the financial means,

1340
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 4: and we'll talk about how they can do that later.

1341
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:59,719
Speaker 4: People should support those people because there's no one else

1342
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 4: who who can go through that system, and like, there

1343
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:05,360
Speaker 4: are people who have gone through horrific things to get

1344
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:07,639
Speaker 4: here and horrific things in the places that they came from.

1345
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 4: And even if it's not everyone, we would like to

1346
01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 4: keep safe. We should do everything we can to keep

1347
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 4: those people safe.

1348
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:15,160
Speaker 15: One hundred percent, you know, just to say, I mean

1349
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:18,840
Speaker 15: and funding somebody's legal fees, I mean an attorney makes

1350
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:22,840
Speaker 15: all the difference in navigating these types of issues that

1351
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:25,519
Speaker 15: I just talked about and other issues and presenting your case.

1352
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 15: I mean, asylum cases are still incredibly difficult to win,

1353
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 15: and so representation of council is often key.

1354
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that the rates of success people who

1355
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:36,840
Speaker 4: don't have counsel are dramatically lower. I haven't lived on

1356
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 4: Track recently, but you can normally find that on the

1357
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 4: I think Track is no longer in the University of Syracuse,

1358
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 4: but it did some place where you can find information statistics.

1359
01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:49,920
Speaker 4: Let's talk about one of those cases, if that's okay.

1360
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:53,559
Speaker 4: And obviously you know we won't intervene in anyone's prihapsy

1361
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 4: any more than we have to. But like I want

1362
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 4: to talk about Primrose. Primrose is Zimbabwean woman who I

1363
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 4: met in Bo when I was in the Darien Gap

1364
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 4: reporting on my series. People heard from her in the series.

1365
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:08,680
Speaker 13: Even me. I was crying myself. I was like, I

1366
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:11,920
Speaker 13: want to just put myself in the water. Then I

1367
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:16,160
Speaker 13: can just go what the genuine tough really really tough,

1368
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:20,800
Speaker 13: the mountain, the stones, the river. It's not easy at all.

1369
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 13: It's it's not a very I don't even recommended someone

1370
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 13: to say you use that and give no. And even myself,

1371
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:32,000
Speaker 13: I did know about it. Yeah, I was regretting myself.

1372
01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 13: I was crying. I was like, God, I don't know

1373
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:38,280
Speaker 13: my family and my family they don't know where I

1374
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:39,280
Speaker 13: am right now.

1375
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:43,800
Speaker 4: But I make it yeah, I make it safe.

1376
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:43,880
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1377
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:49,760
Speaker 4: She is now in the asylum process, right, can you

1378
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:52,600
Speaker 4: explain a little bit about like where she is in

1379
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:55,280
Speaker 4: the process. And I will eventually do a scripted series

1380
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 4: on this, but like I guess, can we get an

1381
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:00,600
Speaker 4: update on her situation and how it's progressing.

1382
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 14: Absolutely, so.

1383
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:04,200
Speaker 15: I came into the case about I want to say,

1384
01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 15: a month or two ago, she had somebody supporting her,

1385
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:12,719
Speaker 15: a friend living in Texas, and that situation, a living

1386
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:16,479
Speaker 15: situation has changed, I believe, which is also not the

1387
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 15: worst things.

1388
01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 14: But she will be moving.

1389
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:21,880
Speaker 15: With a friend to southern California or moving in with

1390
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:25,639
Speaker 15: a friend brother. But just this situation is very different

1391
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:30,120
Speaker 15: in Texas and Louisiana and Mississippi and those types of states,

1392
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:33,720
Speaker 15: markedly so, and her case is a good example of that.

1393
01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 15: And there's a reason that people like mamou Khalil and

1394
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:40,840
Speaker 15: many others are sent to detention centers in that area

1395
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 15: because it's in the Fifth Circuit, first of all, which

1396
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:47,519
Speaker 15: is widely renowned to be not a favorable circuit court

1397
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 15: of appeals to immigrants. Yeah, but more so than that,

1398
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 15: even the judges themselves are very different from what we

1399
01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:57,679
Speaker 15: would encounter in California, for example. So my first encounter

1400
01:20:57,800 --> 01:21:00,000
Speaker 15: with the judge was, you know, this is all very

1401
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:03,800
Speaker 15: I submitted a motion to appear for her. She had

1402
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 15: a master calendar hearing in June. I submitted a motion

1403
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 15: to appear for that telephonically, explaining I was representing her

1404
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 15: at lower no cost, you know, whatever funds could be raised,

1405
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 15: and could I please appear for a status it's a

1406
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:21,280
Speaker 15: status type conference telephonically, And that motion was met with

1407
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 15: a really strange response. I don't to this day, I

1408
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 15: don't really know exactly. It was sort of approved, but

1409
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:29,599
Speaker 15: then moot because eventually a final court hearing was set.

1410
01:21:29,640 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 14: So that's where we're at right now.

1411
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:34,240
Speaker 15: She has a final court next year, in about a

1412
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:36,920
Speaker 15: year and a couple months, but in ruling on my

1413
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:40,240
Speaker 15: WebEx motion, I was emailed the order of the judge

1414
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 15: along with a notice that Permers should self deport. So

1415
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:49,120
Speaker 15: judges are sending out these notices with routine other orders

1416
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:55,479
Speaker 15: in cases where the immigrant has council is fighting their case. Yeah,

1417
01:21:55,800 --> 01:22:00,280
Speaker 15: it's obvious they're fighting their case Jesus And yeah. So

1418
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:02,240
Speaker 15: it's one of the things where you just feel very

1419
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:05,000
Speaker 15: strongly this administration's influence.

1420
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:07,320
Speaker 4: Are they obliged to do that or is that a

1421
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:08,799
Speaker 4: choice that the judge's making.

1422
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 14: Not at all, and in fact it's completely inappropriate.

1423
01:22:11,439 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 15: So all of us are okay. The immigration bar is

1424
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:17,000
Speaker 15: taking a different approach to it. You know, some are

1425
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:19,840
Speaker 15: filing motions to recuse, telling the judges, hey, you need

1426
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:22,679
Speaker 15: to recuse yourself. You're a non neutral judge. To send

1427
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:24,320
Speaker 15: this out in the middle of the case is absurd.

1428
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:27,720
Speaker 15: It's a due process violation. They're entitled to a neutral judge. Yeah.

1429
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:30,920
Speaker 15: I think my approach would be more one of playing dumb,

1430
01:22:30,960 --> 01:22:34,639
Speaker 15: because often this has happened. The system, if you will,

1431
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:37,680
Speaker 15: of ECASS, the electronics system that we use for court

1432
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:40,640
Speaker 15: immigration filing systems that Elon Musk briefly had access to

1433
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:43,799
Speaker 15: or whatever was going on there. But anyways, I digress,

1434
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 15: you know, will send out automatic notices with the emails

1435
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 15: with the judges orders. So my approach, I think will

1436
01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:51,800
Speaker 15: be to give the judges the benefit of the doubt

1437
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:54,280
Speaker 15: and ask them if this was an electronic notice and

1438
01:22:54,280 --> 01:22:56,400
Speaker 15: if they say no, then I've gotten it on the record,

1439
01:22:56,479 --> 01:22:58,360
Speaker 15: and if they deny the case, I have that in

1440
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 15: there for the appeal. But yeah, it's happening all over

1441
01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 15: the country with all sorts of different judges, and it's

1442
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:06,639
Speaker 15: definitely something that we're grappling with right now.

1443
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:07,960
Speaker 14: And it's just it's.

1444
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:11,360
Speaker 15: Very ballsy for a judge to say, hey, leave the

1445
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 15: country and oh, by the way, I'm a neutral arbiter.

1446
01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:16,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, what's the point of having the judge

1447
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:19,519
Speaker 4: or having the whole process right if then they're going

1448
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 4: to declare this clear bias.

1449
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 14: Yeah, it's absurd.

1450
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:24,640
Speaker 15: I mean, it's you know, I mean, it's such a

1451
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 15: violation of due process rights. And I think I know

1452
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:30,200
Speaker 15: everybody in this country now knows the importance of due process,

1453
01:23:30,240 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 15: whereas before only attorneys through that term around. But no,

1454
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:36,120
Speaker 15: I mean, this stuff really matters, you know. Yeah, And

1455
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 15: then also another thing that happened in Primosa's case is

1456
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 15: that when you have a work permit clock right, which

1457
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:44,920
Speaker 15: is another absurd thing for assiles that once they file

1458
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:47,040
Speaker 15: their asylum application, they have to wait one hundred and

1459
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:50,160
Speaker 15: fifty days before they can apply for a work permit.

1460
01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 15: And of course they're expected to be independently wealthy during

1461
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:55,560
Speaker 15: those five months or you know, or star o or

1462
01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:56,720
Speaker 15: I don't know what they're expected to do.

1463
01:23:57,080 --> 01:23:59,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, rely on the jeder rusty brothers.

1464
01:23:59,240 --> 01:23:59,919
Speaker 14: Like exactly.

1465
01:24:00,320 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 15: So if you do something like try to change venue

1466
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,120
Speaker 15: or a motion to continue, if you do something in

1467
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:08,800
Speaker 15: your case that the judge perceives as not moving the

1468
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 15: case along and rather like kind of trying to stall

1469
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:14,280
Speaker 15: it or possibly pausing it or slow it down, the

1470
01:24:14,360 --> 01:24:17,720
Speaker 15: judge will stop the work permit clock the days and

1471
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 15: it's a whole thing. So Primroses was stopped because the

1472
01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:24,960
Speaker 15: judge wanted her to get an attorney. So usually when

1473
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:28,120
Speaker 15: the case is set for a final hearing, that code

1474
01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 15: adjournment code they call it. I know from we have

1475
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:33,160
Speaker 15: the access to the codes and what stops the clock

1476
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:36,599
Speaker 15: and what doesn't, and it always restarts the clock because

1477
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 15: you move your case along because you're setting it for trial.

1478
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:41,680
Speaker 15: It's you know, obviously moving your case along hers was

1479
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:46,479
Speaker 15: not restarted for whatever reason, and my only remedy would

1480
01:24:46,479 --> 01:24:48,800
Speaker 15: be to write some court administrator who may or may

1481
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:51,719
Speaker 15: not ever respond. I can't even go to the judge

1482
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:54,400
Speaker 15: about this, you know, it's it's absurd. So that's just

1483
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:58,760
Speaker 15: the situation that one assilie is one asylum seeker is

1484
01:24:58,760 --> 01:25:01,880
Speaker 15: dealing with in Texas. So you can only imagine what

1485
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:05,439
Speaker 15: goes on in detentions that, you know, detained cases in

1486
01:25:05,479 --> 01:25:06,440
Speaker 15: those states.

1487
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:10,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, people who don't have counsel, like getting that self deportation.

1488
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:12,479
Speaker 4: If you don't have counsel, like you could assume that

1489
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:15,639
Speaker 4: you are just obliged to leave, like, yeah, that your

1490
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 4: your process is.

1491
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,840
Speaker 15: Over one hundred percent, And there's no legal basis for

1492
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:22,120
Speaker 15: the judge to be issuing that. In fact, it's completely

1493
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:25,840
Speaker 15: unlawful to be issuing something like that at the beginning

1494
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:27,920
Speaker 15: of the case, at the end of the case, and

1495
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:30,360
Speaker 15: at the beginning. The judge does have to give certain advisals,

1496
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:33,280
Speaker 15: but telling somebody to self deport is never an advisal

1497
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:34,679
Speaker 15: that should be given under the law.

1498
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:38,080
Speaker 4: Ever, right, Yeah, like it kind of nullifies the whole system.

1499
01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:41,120
Speaker 15: And plus I should mention real quick that it's disingenuous

1500
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:44,960
Speaker 15: and harmful and that with these you know, this administration

1501
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:48,559
Speaker 15: on purpose isn't telling people with the thousand dollars, take

1502
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:51,080
Speaker 15: a thousand dollars in self deport and you know, will

1503
01:25:51,080 --> 01:25:52,920
Speaker 15: pay for your flight and all this stuff. But they're

1504
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:55,760
Speaker 15: not telling people is that when you leave, you're then

1505
01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 15: subject to a deportation order and that comes with a

1506
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 15: ten year bar. This is not mentioned. And that's a

1507
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:02,679
Speaker 15: big deal.

1508
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:05,920
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I mean it seems even like I think

1509
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 4: the executive order said permanently leave the United States, right.

1510
01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:13,160
Speaker 15: Well, it did, and then but then they switch tactics

1511
01:26:13,160 --> 01:26:15,960
Speaker 15: a little bit with the app to self support, saying like,

1512
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:18,519
Speaker 15: you know, leave now, leave now so you have a

1513
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:21,040
Speaker 15: chance to come back later or something like that. Right,

1514
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:23,479
Speaker 15: but you know without mentioning that, hey, you no, you're

1515
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:26,360
Speaker 15: barred from the United States for ten years and if

1516
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:29,400
Speaker 15: you ever return unlawfully, then you're a subject to a

1517
01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:31,880
Speaker 15: whole series of you know. I mean, it's just there's

1518
01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:33,880
Speaker 15: all these warnings that need to come with the deportation

1519
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:36,800
Speaker 15: order that are strategically left out of all the administration's

1520
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 15: latest messaging on this topic.

1521
01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:42,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's it's pretty bad. Let's take a break for

1522
01:26:42,160 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 4: advertisements here and then we'll come back. All right, We

1523
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 4: are back, and we've spoken about these like self deportation

1524
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 4: orders right for other people who have entered more recently, right,

1525
01:27:04,280 --> 01:27:07,280
Speaker 4: entered within the last two years. This has been happening

1526
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:10,160
Speaker 4: we're recording on the twenty second for the last two

1527
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:14,919
Speaker 4: days now. It seems like ICE is dismissing the cases

1528
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:18,960
Speaker 4: against them and then detaining them directly in court, if

1529
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:20,400
Speaker 4: I'm correctly informed.

1530
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:25,360
Speaker 15: Yes, So this has been happening periodically throughout the past

1531
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:28,519
Speaker 15: four months, but in the past few days, like this week,

1532
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:31,320
Speaker 15: it's been dramatically ramped up. Like right now as we're

1533
01:27:31,360 --> 01:27:34,160
Speaker 15: recording this, ICE is arresting people in the downtown San

1534
01:27:34,200 --> 01:27:37,800
Speaker 15: Diego court and also courts throughout the country. It's been

1535
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,960
Speaker 15: reported everywhere, happening widely this week. And this is another

1536
01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:44,040
Speaker 15: thing the administration said they were going to do and

1537
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:45,800
Speaker 15: is doing. I mean, you know, they're doing what they

1538
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:48,800
Speaker 15: said they were going to do. Yeah, and it's to

1539
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:52,400
Speaker 15: use what's called two thirty five authority. More broadly so,

1540
01:27:52,479 --> 01:27:55,840
Speaker 15: INA Section two thirty five applies to people who entered

1541
01:27:55,880 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 15: within less than two years, like you said, and they

1542
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:02,880
Speaker 15: can be then said to what's called expedited removal. That

1543
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:05,839
Speaker 15: means that they have to take a credible fear interview

1544
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 15: and be detained, and that they only get to fight

1545
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:10,600
Speaker 15: a case if they pass their credible fear interview, and

1546
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:13,400
Speaker 15: then they do not qualify for an immigration judge bond,

1547
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:15,320
Speaker 15: So they only get out if ICE lets them out,

1548
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:18,560
Speaker 15: which of course I is letting nobody out. So the

1549
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:22,080
Speaker 15: administration wants to have people detained under this authority, this

1550
01:28:22,080 --> 01:28:25,559
Speaker 15: two thirty five authority as much as possible, to have

1551
01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:29,599
Speaker 15: them have to fight their case detained and either lose

1552
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:33,120
Speaker 15: the will to do so and or not be able

1553
01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:35,680
Speaker 15: to afford an attorney, because detained cases move along a

1554
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:38,839
Speaker 15: lot quicker and are very costly as well for that reason.

1555
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:43,200
Speaker 15: So what they're doing is anybody who was here two

1556
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:45,640
Speaker 15: years or less but was parolled in so they're in

1557
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:48,360
Speaker 15: the regular immigration court proceedings they got out there under

1558
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 15: two forty proceedings, that's called so DHS attorneys in court

1559
01:28:52,040 --> 01:28:55,280
Speaker 15: are terminating those proceedings. They're asking the judge to terminate

1560
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:57,719
Speaker 15: the two forty proceedings, so then that case is closed,

1561
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:00,200
Speaker 15: and then they immediately restart a case under section two

1562
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:03,120
Speaker 15: thirty five. And at the second they do that, the

1563
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 15: person is subject to mandatory detention. And Ice is right

1564
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:08,639
Speaker 15: there in the courthouse to arrest them and detain them.

1565
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:13,240
Speaker 4: Jesus, yeah, I thought Ice couldn't arrest people in California.

1566
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:16,439
Speaker 4: Is that California state courts, no federal courts which are

1567
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:17,440
Speaker 4: in California.

1568
01:29:17,479 --> 01:29:20,160
Speaker 15: I believe so, And colleagues and I have been talking

1569
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:22,800
Speaker 15: about this. I haven't researched it thoroughly, but I think

1570
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:26,280
Speaker 15: also the nature of these proceedings, like the two thirty

1571
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:29,840
Speaker 15: five proceeding, like you are mandatory detention, like you okay,

1572
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:32,439
Speaker 15: you were taken into custody. It's as if you just

1573
01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:35,959
Speaker 15: crossed the border and you know, are taken in a custody.

1574
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:38,200
Speaker 15: It's treated like that type of situation, like no warrant

1575
01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:38,759
Speaker 15: is necessary.

1576
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:39,479
Speaker 14: I don't believe you.

1577
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:42,040
Speaker 4: Know, oh okay, right, yeah, so they could. They have

1578
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 4: very broad authority to detain people anywhere. That makes sense exactly.

1579
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:46,640
Speaker 5: So.

1580
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:50,439
Speaker 15: The real issue here is the ethical I mean a

1581
01:29:50,479 --> 01:29:52,040
Speaker 15: lot of us are grappling with this and of course

1582
01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:56,479
Speaker 15: fiercely opposing these motions in that the justification that the

1583
01:29:56,520 --> 01:30:00,160
Speaker 15: DHS attorneys are attempting to use is that circumstances have

1584
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:04,280
Speaker 15: materially changed since the issuance of their initial case that

1585
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:07,400
Speaker 15: they're in now, which of course is not the.

1586
01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:10,720
Speaker 4: Case, right, whose circumstances.

1587
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:13,720
Speaker 15: Exactly exactly, Like the rise of fascism doesn't constitute a

1588
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:18,599
Speaker 15: change circumstance. Yeah, So it's just there's no, there's no

1589
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:22,000
Speaker 15: basis for this motion. And secondly, the only basis, like,

1590
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:26,639
Speaker 15: there's zero justification for this other than filling detention centers,

1591
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:31,560
Speaker 15: lining cour Civic and Geogroup's pockets. Yeah, and intentionally prejudicing

1592
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:34,519
Speaker 15: an immigrant to have to fight their case attained. I

1593
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 15: mean right, there's no there's no good or legitimate justification

1594
01:30:39,920 --> 01:30:41,559
Speaker 15: for this period the end, you know.

1595
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:44,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, and fighting it detained will be a lot harder.

1596
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:47,760
Speaker 4: They will be obviously in like terrible situation they are,

1597
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:50,439
Speaker 4: as we've covered before, often moved to a different state

1598
01:30:50,520 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 4: from their council. Will make it a lot harder for

1599
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:55,120
Speaker 4: them if they choose to go that route. I'm guessing

1600
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 4: that ICE is hoping that people won't fight and will

1601
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:00,920
Speaker 4: just DHS is hoping the people will choose not to fight.

1602
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:07,160
Speaker 15: Percent that's the whole point is this full Administration's the

1603
01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:11,519
Speaker 15: messaging and their actions are all about forcing people, breaking

1604
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 15: people's spirits, and forcing them into a situation where they

1605
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:17,599
Speaker 15: feel their only option is to self deport.

1606
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:18,599
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1607
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:22,440
Speaker 15: It is heartbreaking, it's very sick. Yeah, it's it's very disturbing.

1608
01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:26,120
Speaker 15: It's very very different from Trump one point zero.

1609
01:31:26,479 --> 01:31:29,240
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's worth sort of focusing in on

1610
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:33,439
Speaker 4: that this is a completely distinct and much more radical

1611
01:31:34,040 --> 01:31:37,080
Speaker 4: disassembling of the asylum system as we know it.

1612
01:31:37,479 --> 01:31:38,080
Speaker 14: Absolutely.

1613
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:40,799
Speaker 15: I mean, I think we can all agree or disagree

1614
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 15: as far as how we feel about the past four

1615
01:31:43,200 --> 01:31:46,120
Speaker 15: months and what has happened, but I think everybody can

1616
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:50,800
Speaker 15: agree the pace at which it has happened is extremely concerning.

1617
01:31:51,200 --> 01:31:55,040
Speaker 4: Right, we have four months into four years, and we

1618
01:31:55,200 --> 01:31:59,200
Speaker 4: have seen like a constitutional crisis, like a full blown

1619
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:03,080
Speaker 4: defiance of courts. We at the day we're recording, the

1620
01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:06,400
Speaker 4: Trump administration is attempting to deport people to South Sudan,

1621
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:09,519
Speaker 4: many of whom eleven of twelve of whom are not

1622
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:10,560
Speaker 4: South Sudanese.

1623
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 5: Right.

1624
01:32:11,479 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 4: I guess from what I understand, their attempt at giving

1625
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:18,280
Speaker 4: those people a credible fear screening was that they didn't

1626
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:21,080
Speaker 4: hear them shouting from the cells they were detained in

1627
01:32:21,160 --> 01:32:23,360
Speaker 4: that they were afraid of being tortured.

1628
01:32:23,760 --> 01:32:27,960
Speaker 15: Yeah, they're supposed to give them opportunity to be heard,

1629
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:31,800
Speaker 15: essentially and give notice of this third country that they're

1630
01:32:31,920 --> 01:32:34,320
Speaker 15: going to be deported to. That nobody and no judge

1631
01:32:34,360 --> 01:32:36,479
Speaker 15: is ever considered whether they have a fear or if

1632
01:32:36,520 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 15: they would be in danger or deported to this country. Right,

1633
01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:42,280
Speaker 15: So again, this is a due process situation where hey,

1634
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:44,959
Speaker 15: before you can be sent to some random country, especially

1635
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:48,120
Speaker 15: South Sudan, maybe you should be given an opportunity to

1636
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:50,960
Speaker 15: present why you have a fear or that something bad

1637
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:53,160
Speaker 15: might happen to you over there to a judge. And

1638
01:32:53,240 --> 01:32:56,000
Speaker 15: so this was recently ordered. I believe the case is

1639
01:32:56,040 --> 01:32:59,879
Speaker 15: called DBD versus DHS. Was what stopped the Libya situation

1640
01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:03,640
Speaker 15: from happening, where yeah, judge said, this is exactly what

1641
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:05,280
Speaker 15: needs to occur. These people need to be give you

1642
01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:08,559
Speaker 15: given real notice, not this whatever has been had, you know,

1643
01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:11,679
Speaker 15: and and an opportunity to be heard. And then yeah,

1644
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:15,320
Speaker 15: and they immediately thereafter attempted to as you said, or

1645
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:17,200
Speaker 15: I think I don't know if they actually accomplished it

1646
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:18,000
Speaker 15: with South Sudan.

1647
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:21,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, my understanding is they are in a country which

1648
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:23,920
Speaker 4: is neither the United States nor South Sudan on an

1649
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 4: aircraft at this time, and DHS is arguing that they

1650
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:31,040
Speaker 4: can do their credible fear screenings there on the aircraft.

1651
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:34,480
Speaker 4: I don't know how they've planned together people privacy, translation,

1652
01:33:34,680 --> 01:33:37,680
Speaker 4: access to council. I just looked on court listener right

1653
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:42,360
Speaker 4: before we recorded, and Judge Murphy clarified Massachusetts District Court

1654
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 4: judge that ten days would be the amount of time

1655
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:47,640
Speaker 4: that they would need to assert a credible fear and

1656
01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:49,880
Speaker 4: then if DHS determined that they didn't have credible fear,

1657
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:52,640
Speaker 4: they would then have fifteen days to ask for the

1658
01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:56,639
Speaker 4: reopening of their case. TBD. Is the United States going

1659
01:33:56,680 --> 01:34:00,360
Speaker 4: to like somehow accommodate them in where they are. People

1660
01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:02,439
Speaker 4: are speculating they're in jow Booty, which is the largest

1661
01:34:02,520 --> 01:34:05,479
Speaker 4: US military base in the continent of Africa and close

1662
01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:09,840
Speaker 4: to South Sudan, And so if that's the case, Yeah,

1663
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:13,160
Speaker 4: I don't know how they will get due process. We

1664
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:15,280
Speaker 4: will find out if they will get due process.

1665
01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:18,439
Speaker 15: I guess yeah, they probably won't, but will be told

1666
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:20,960
Speaker 15: that they did, or will be or will be told

1667
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:22,880
Speaker 15: that they were criminals in the first place, which is

1668
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:26,479
Speaker 15: the other theme of this administration, right with the Alien

1669
01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:30,120
Speaker 15: Enemies Act, which has basically been put on pause by

1670
01:34:30,320 --> 01:34:35,240
Speaker 15: a number of Satan judges who have said, there's no invasion,

1671
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:36,080
Speaker 15: there's no war.

1672
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:38,719
Speaker 14: This is absurd, This just flat out doesn't apply.

1673
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:41,479
Speaker 15: And I have to say that the immigration bar is

1674
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:43,760
Speaker 15: very I think not just the immigration bar, I think

1675
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:45,800
Speaker 15: all of us are very frustrated that the Supreme Court

1676
01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:48,040
Speaker 15: has not yet come out with a definitive substance of

1677
01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:51,479
Speaker 15: ruling on this because, for the people who don't know,

1678
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:55,800
Speaker 15: the Alien Enemies Act allows the administration to circumvent the

1679
01:34:55,880 --> 01:35:00,720
Speaker 15: i NA, which is the whole immigration court system, and

1680
01:35:00,800 --> 01:35:04,360
Speaker 15: immediately to port supposed criminals who were invading the country.

1681
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:06,120
Speaker 15: I mean, we all know this with the Venezuelans who

1682
01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:08,960
Speaker 15: are accused of being trended Aragua just for having tattoos,

1683
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:13,000
Speaker 15: and so that is to me and I think all

1684
01:35:13,040 --> 01:35:15,760
Speaker 15: of us the biggest threat to just be able to

1685
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:17,800
Speaker 15: put somebody on a plane to another country and in

1686
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:20,320
Speaker 15: a prison in another country, as we've seen the Sea cot.

1687
01:35:20,479 --> 01:35:21,440
Speaker 14: In El Salvador.

1688
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:24,600
Speaker 15: I mean, we need our Supreme Court to speak on this,

1689
01:35:24,680 --> 01:35:25,679
Speaker 15: then we need it quickly.

1690
01:35:26,360 --> 01:35:30,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, like if we no longer have habeas. It's a

1691
01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:32,960
Speaker 4: frontal assault on the Bill of rights, like most of them.

1692
01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:36,000
Speaker 15: And there's so many assaults on the Bill of rights.

1693
01:35:36,120 --> 01:35:39,720
Speaker 15: And then we need our Supreme Court to really to

1694
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:42,320
Speaker 15: step up. And I think I'm not the only one

1695
01:35:42,360 --> 01:35:46,160
Speaker 15: who's extremely frustrated by that, because we're in crisis and

1696
01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:48,920
Speaker 15: as we've seen, it's fallen on courts and lawyers and

1697
01:35:49,280 --> 01:35:53,720
Speaker 15: judges to try to defend the semblance of democracy in

1698
01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:54,240
Speaker 15: this country.

1699
01:35:54,280 --> 01:35:56,320
Speaker 14: But the highest court in the land needs to help

1700
01:35:56,320 --> 01:35:57,240
Speaker 14: out soon.

1701
01:35:57,800 --> 01:36:01,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and like this is where like the Reba

1702
01:36:01,920 --> 01:36:05,479
Speaker 4: meets the road right for like maintaining people's basic rights,

1703
01:36:05,560 --> 01:36:08,439
Speaker 4: dignity and yeah, the right not to be sent to

1704
01:36:08,720 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 4: a labor camp in El Salvador or you know, seuth

1705
01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:16,280
Speaker 4: Sudana country, which is rapidly descending into conflict. Again, I

1706
01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:18,799
Speaker 4: thought the government was barrel bombing this week.

1707
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:21,120
Speaker 15: Well, and just real quick, another note on the Supreme

1708
01:36:21,160 --> 01:36:23,479
Speaker 15: Court is that they're they're also concerning I mean, as

1709
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:25,640
Speaker 15: we know, there's a lot of Trump appointees there and

1710
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:29,960
Speaker 15: so I mean it's not even that that's the answer,

1711
01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:32,720
Speaker 15: it's just we're you know, but we need answers more

1712
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:35,920
Speaker 15: quickly than what they're they're giving us. And it's just

1713
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:40,599
Speaker 15: given the rate that this administration is working at, I

1714
01:36:40,640 --> 01:36:42,880
Speaker 15: don't know that they will if they ever get the

1715
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:45,760
Speaker 15: case for the asylum ban at the border, would even

1716
01:36:45,760 --> 01:36:49,320
Speaker 15: overturn that because historically they've sort of supported his two

1717
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:52,280
Speaker 15: twelve F powers. So I'm not saying that's the answer

1718
01:36:52,320 --> 01:36:54,960
Speaker 15: to everything, but it's definitely frustrating to not have basic

1719
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 15: things yeah already decided, like the use of the alien

1720
01:36:58,200 --> 01:36:58,680
Speaker 15: enemy that.

1721
01:36:58,920 --> 01:37:01,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, like just notes in where we're at, Like when

1722
01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:03,960
Speaker 4: you know people are trying in good faith to move

1723
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 4: forward with the legal processes that they have spent their

1724
01:37:07,240 --> 01:37:10,360
Speaker 4: entire life savings on to get here and do the

1725
01:37:10,479 --> 01:37:24,920
Speaker 4: right quote unquote the right way. You're still fighting a

1726
01:37:25,040 --> 01:37:27,720
Speaker 4: number of asylum cases, as we said before the call,

1727
01:37:27,840 --> 01:37:31,439
Speaker 4: like you probably won't be forever, right Like, at some

1728
01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:34,439
Speaker 4: point there's just not going to be any more asylum cases.

1729
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:37,960
Speaker 4: I know that you're accepting donations. I think through venmo

1730
01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:40,400
Speaker 4: On behalf of Primrose, that will be sure to link

1731
01:37:40,439 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 4: to that mo account in the description of this show,

1732
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,519
Speaker 4: so people can donate if they'd like to. Now it's

1733
01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:47,080
Speaker 4: the time to do it right, It's not like this

1734
01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:48,840
Speaker 4: is going to be an ongoing thing. Like if people

1735
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:52,719
Speaker 4: don't help now, then there won't be migrants to support

1736
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:56,559
Speaker 4: or assylies to support later. So like, how can people

1737
01:37:56,840 --> 01:38:01,000
Speaker 4: materially support maybe in other ways, right, if they're like

1738
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:04,240
Speaker 4: on hard times and have the financial resources, what else

1739
01:38:04,240 --> 01:38:06,680
Speaker 4: can people do to I just to make this a

1740
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:10,240
Speaker 4: little bit less cruel to some people who are among

1741
01:38:10,280 --> 01:38:12,080
Speaker 4: the most unfortunate people on the planet.

1742
01:38:12,120 --> 01:38:16,680
Speaker 15: Often, I think even mental and emotional support for the

1743
01:38:16,720 --> 01:38:20,519
Speaker 15: immigrants in your life, I think is something that is

1744
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:26,080
Speaker 15: underestimated because speaking as a very privileged white woman attorney

1745
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:30,080
Speaker 15: US citizen, this has taken a tremendous toll on me,

1746
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:33,599
Speaker 15: and the mental toll that has taken on the actual

1747
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:38,240
Speaker 15: undocumented community and a siles. This messaging is so harmful

1748
01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:42,679
Speaker 15: and so disgusting that I think I would just caution

1749
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:45,840
Speaker 15: people to not underestimate the power of human kindness to

1750
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:51,040
Speaker 15: those already in your life and just empowering them distributing

1751
01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:54,760
Speaker 15: Know your Rights cards and information that still matters. But

1752
01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:57,839
Speaker 15: also I think the people who are, as we've been discussing,

1753
01:38:58,040 --> 01:39:00,880
Speaker 15: going to be at the most disadvant managed in terms

1754
01:39:00,920 --> 01:39:03,080
Speaker 15: of being able to keep up morale are these people

1755
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:06,719
Speaker 15: who are going to be mandatorily detained. So, in terms

1756
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:09,760
Speaker 15: of what we were talking about, I believe before we

1757
01:39:09,800 --> 01:39:13,800
Speaker 15: started recording, reaching out to any organizations I know in

1758
01:39:13,840 --> 01:39:17,840
Speaker 15: San Diego there's detention resistance, or even reaching out to

1759
01:39:17,880 --> 01:39:20,840
Speaker 15: the detention center that's near you to be able to

1760
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:24,639
Speaker 15: determine how you can send a letter, how you can

1761
01:39:24,680 --> 01:39:27,000
Speaker 15: put money on somebody's books so that they can have

1762
01:39:27,040 --> 01:39:29,519
Speaker 15: phone calls with their family or phone calls with you

1763
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:33,519
Speaker 15: even I think these types of things are key in

1764
01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:41,040
Speaker 15: light of the administration's clear messaging that immigrants are very

1765
01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:44,960
Speaker 15: much unwanted and criminals. So I think that's where I

1766
01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:48,880
Speaker 15: would come at this from. If you cannot donate, again,

1767
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:51,439
Speaker 15: like we were talking, if you have a few dollars

1768
01:39:51,439 --> 01:39:53,679
Speaker 15: to spare, I mean, if everybody has a few dollars

1769
01:39:53,720 --> 01:39:55,680
Speaker 15: to spare, there is a finite number like we were

1770
01:39:55,720 --> 01:39:59,400
Speaker 15: saying of asylum cases left, like for Roses. So if

1771
01:39:59,400 --> 01:40:03,200
Speaker 15: people can spare a few dollars here or there whenever

1772
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:05,679
Speaker 15: they can, it does make the difference.

1773
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it does, and it shows that like even

1774
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:10,559
Speaker 4: if the government doesn't want you to hear a lot

1775
01:40:10,560 --> 01:40:13,000
Speaker 4: of people want you to be protected. We want you

1776
01:40:13,040 --> 01:40:16,479
Speaker 4: to be safe. Like, yeah, the mental damage it does,

1777
01:40:16,560 --> 01:40:19,120
Speaker 4: I think it's hard to overstate. Like I was talking,

1778
01:40:19,160 --> 01:40:22,519
Speaker 4: I remember to a young woman Ino and like she

1779
01:40:22,680 --> 01:40:24,839
Speaker 4: was the only surviving member of her family. The government

1780
01:40:24,840 --> 01:40:28,760
Speaker 4: had killed everyone, and so she came to the US

1781
01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:30,920
Speaker 4: right to be safe, and like, now the government is

1782
01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:33,759
Speaker 4: coming after her in addition to the trauma she already

1783
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:37,160
Speaker 4: has from watching her entire family die. Like, now the

1784
01:40:37,160 --> 01:40:39,439
Speaker 4: most powerful government in the world is coming after you.

1785
01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:41,920
Speaker 4: Like I can't imagine how that feels.

1786
01:40:42,320 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 14: That's a very good point.

1787
01:40:43,479 --> 01:40:47,200
Speaker 15: I mean, yeah, people are coming already traumatized, only to

1788
01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:50,840
Speaker 15: be further traumatized by this administration in the system. And yes,

1789
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:53,839
Speaker 15: I mean emotional and mental and any kind of support

1790
01:40:54,040 --> 01:40:57,000
Speaker 15: is not to be underestimated in the slightest during these times.

1791
01:40:57,320 --> 01:40:59,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, like have people over for dinner if you can,

1792
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:01,600
Speaker 4: or yet like the detention center and put money on

1793
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:08,040
Speaker 4: someone's commissary, Like just showing people that they're welcome is important.

1794
01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:11,640
Speaker 4: Like I know a lot of the migrants. Like if

1795
01:41:11,640 --> 01:41:13,000
Speaker 4: I look at my phone right now, in the time

1796
01:41:13,040 --> 01:41:15,560
Speaker 4: we've been recording one of the migrants, I meant that

1797
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:18,000
Speaker 4: Darien Gap will probably have texted me. They're in Mexico, right,

1798
01:41:18,040 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 4: and they just want the world to know about the situation.

1799
01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:22,800
Speaker 4: They know they can't come to the US anymore. But

1800
01:41:22,880 --> 01:41:25,000
Speaker 4: sometimes people will say, I guess the Americans don't want

1801
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:27,040
Speaker 4: u s anymore, and like that breaks my heart because

1802
01:41:27,080 --> 01:41:29,960
Speaker 4: I think most people, if they knew these people's circumstances, right,

1803
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:31,840
Speaker 4: Like hundreds of people have reached out to me since

1804
01:41:31,880 --> 01:41:34,160
Speaker 4: the Darien Gap stuff to ask how they can help,

1805
01:41:34,200 --> 01:41:37,960
Speaker 4: and like most people do want those people to be

1806
01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:40,920
Speaker 4: their neighbors, and it breaks my heart that they think

1807
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:42,920
Speaker 4: that we don't want them, that we would rather leave

1808
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:47,840
Speaker 4: them to die wherever they're at. Like it's genuinely really

1809
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:49,920
Speaker 4: horrible for me to think of that. So yeah, I

1810
01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:54,120
Speaker 4: would really encourage anyone listening if you can, to do what.

1811
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:59,439
Speaker 15: You can, absolutely and just remembering that again, these asylum

1812
01:41:59,439 --> 01:42:02,200
Speaker 15: cases are finite. So if you know any asylum seeker

1813
01:42:02,280 --> 01:42:05,800
Speaker 15: or can support any asylum seeker right now, they made

1814
01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:07,599
Speaker 15: it in Let's give them their best shot.

1815
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:10,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like we can still help those people,

1816
01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:14,160
Speaker 4: and while we can, we should absolutely. Yeah, Well, thank

1817
01:42:14,160 --> 01:42:16,080
Speaker 4: you so much for joining us. We do appreciate it.

1818
01:42:16,120 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 4: I know that your time is very valuable and you're

1819
01:42:19,040 --> 01:42:21,800
Speaker 4: really busy right now, so we really appreciate your time.

1820
01:42:21,920 --> 01:42:25,080
Speaker 4: You're always welcome back, and if there's anything else you'd

1821
01:42:25,080 --> 01:42:26,680
Speaker 4: like to say before we finish.

1822
01:42:26,360 --> 01:42:27,920
Speaker 14: Up, yeah, thank you, James.

1823
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:29,920
Speaker 15: I think the only thing I just want to emphasize

1824
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:33,120
Speaker 15: is that, you know, from the standpoint of immigration attorneys

1825
01:42:33,160 --> 01:42:36,120
Speaker 15: like I feel that we're obviously a subject of an

1826
01:42:36,160 --> 01:42:38,679
Speaker 15: executive order. And you know, big law firms are being

1827
01:42:38,760 --> 01:42:42,400
Speaker 15: extorted by the administration to represent causes that the administration

1828
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:45,200
Speaker 15: believes in and not robono immigration work, and so forth

1829
01:42:45,240 --> 01:42:45,680
Speaker 15: and so on.

1830
01:42:46,400 --> 01:42:47,880
Speaker 14: So it's not like too many of us have.

1831
01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:51,799
Speaker 15: Been personally attacked, although you know judges have been arrested,

1832
01:42:51,920 --> 01:42:54,800
Speaker 15: even judges for just hiring an immigrant to do work

1833
01:42:54,800 --> 01:42:55,519
Speaker 15: around the house.

1834
01:42:55,600 --> 01:42:56,840
Speaker 5: So it is.

1835
01:42:56,960 --> 01:42:59,400
Speaker 15: It is a scary time to be practicing immigration law,

1836
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:03,720
Speaker 15: but unfortunate. I do see there being a time when

1837
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:05,439
Speaker 15: it won't happen. I mean, I see the writing on

1838
01:43:05,479 --> 01:43:07,560
Speaker 15: the wall where I will not be able to continue

1839
01:43:08,200 --> 01:43:11,920
Speaker 15: mentally and or economically, because a side effect of all this,

1840
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:14,280
Speaker 15: and a very intentional side effect, is to make it

1841
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:17,320
Speaker 15: so that we can't do much for people anymore, and

1842
01:43:17,479 --> 01:43:20,479
Speaker 15: or they can't afford us, or there's not people here

1843
01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:23,720
Speaker 15: to do anything for because their spirit was broken, or

1844
01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:26,240
Speaker 15: their finances or all of the above and they had

1845
01:43:26,280 --> 01:43:29,840
Speaker 15: to leave. So it is a very intense time. But

1846
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:32,439
Speaker 15: I came from different areas of law. I've only been

1847
01:43:32,439 --> 01:43:36,040
Speaker 15: in immigration seven years and it's the first time I've

1848
01:43:36,080 --> 01:43:38,280
Speaker 15: thought of, Okay, where am I going to go to

1849
01:43:38,439 --> 01:43:43,280
Speaker 15: next in these seven years, And it's a very real thing. So,

1850
01:43:44,280 --> 01:43:45,920
Speaker 15: like I said, it feels very different than Trump one

1851
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:46,479
Speaker 15: point zero.

1852
01:43:46,479 --> 01:43:50,400
Speaker 4: So no, yeah, this is considerably most severe.

1853
01:43:50,840 --> 01:43:53,000
Speaker 15: So in other words, take care of yourself if you

1854
01:43:53,040 --> 01:43:55,600
Speaker 15: are an ally, because you know the attack is on

1855
01:43:55,640 --> 01:43:59,559
Speaker 15: immigrants and anybody who advocates, supports and so forth, and

1856
01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:03,479
Speaker 15: it's a very very targeted, direct attack and it's very

1857
01:44:03,520 --> 01:44:06,519
Speaker 15: easy to get run down, yeah, and consume by it.

1858
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:08,720
Speaker 15: And so definitely do what you need to do to

1859
01:44:08,760 --> 01:44:10,719
Speaker 15: take care of yourself. And if that means stepping back,

1860
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:13,400
Speaker 15: then you know, I mean, I want to keep my

1861
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:15,120
Speaker 15: foot in the door as much as possible these next

1862
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:18,840
Speaker 15: four years on something immigration and recite asylum related. But

1863
01:44:18,880 --> 01:44:23,240
Speaker 15: there's also economic and other realities that are happening. Yeah intentionally, so.

1864
01:44:23,800 --> 01:44:26,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, And I think it is important for people

1865
01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:28,439
Speaker 4: to do whatever they need to do to self preserve

1866
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:31,720
Speaker 4: and take care of themselves as well. I think that's

1867
01:44:31,720 --> 01:44:33,479
Speaker 4: a good place to end. Thank you so much for

1868
01:44:33,479 --> 01:44:36,479
Speaker 4: your time, and again, like if you're listening, please check

1869
01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:38,400
Speaker 4: the description of the show and we will have a

1870
01:44:38,439 --> 01:44:40,280
Speaker 4: link to primorise Who's go fund me if you'd like

1871
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:40,679
Speaker 4: to help.

1872
01:44:41,120 --> 01:45:08,519
Speaker 12: Thank you so much, James, thank you. This is it

1873
01:45:08,560 --> 01:45:12,920
Speaker 12: could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's

1874
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:14,840
Speaker 12: happening in the White House, the crumbling world of what

1875
01:45:14,840 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 12: it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined

1876
01:45:17,240 --> 01:45:19,719
Speaker 12: by James Stout and Robert Evans.

1877
01:45:20,080 --> 01:45:23,360
Speaker 7: Hello, what's up? Everybody? Who's got ed.

1878
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:25,680
Speaker 4: Us?

1879
01:45:25,720 --> 01:45:31,559
Speaker 12: You everybody, we're giving you ed this episode, we're covering

1880
01:45:31,600 --> 01:45:34,960
Speaker 12: the week of May twenty one to May twenty eight.

1881
01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 12: It was a really busy news week for the latter

1882
01:45:38,520 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 12: half of that week, so we're going to be mostly

1883
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:41,360
Speaker 12: catching up with that.

1884
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:42,120
Speaker 7: Jesus.

1885
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:47,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, and let's start with the biggest news from late

1886
01:45:48,000 --> 01:45:52,160
Speaker 12: last week, domestically the shooting of two Israeli embassy staffers

1887
01:45:52,200 --> 01:45:56,479
Speaker 12: in Washington, DC. The shooting took place around nine pm

1888
01:45:56,560 --> 01:46:00,160
Speaker 12: on Wednesday, May twenty first, outside of an event at

1889
01:46:00,280 --> 01:46:04,759
Speaker 12: the Capitol Jewish Museum. Prior to the shooting, the suspect

1890
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:09,440
Speaker 12: was seen pacing outside of the building. According to witnesses

1891
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:12,400
Speaker 12: and surveillance video, a thirty one year old man named

1892
01:46:12,400 --> 01:46:16,400
Speaker 12: Elias Rodriguez approached a group of four people leaving the event.

1893
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:19,200
Speaker 12: As he walked past them, he turned to face their

1894
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:22,120
Speaker 12: backs and shot two people and continued to fire as

1895
01:46:22,160 --> 01:46:24,439
Speaker 12: they felt the ground. One of the victims, a twenty

1896
01:46:24,439 --> 01:46:27,479
Speaker 12: six year old woman, tried to crawl away after being shot.

1897
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:32,720
Speaker 12: Rodriguez followed her and fired again Jesus while he was reloading,

1898
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:36,200
Speaker 12: She sat up, and then Rodriguez shot her several more

1899
01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:40,439
Speaker 12: times before throwing his gun into a bush. He ran

1900
01:46:40,439 --> 01:46:43,040
Speaker 12: into the museum after the shooting. Security let him in

1901
01:46:43,120 --> 01:46:46,559
Speaker 12: thinking that he was a victim. Witnesses say he appeared

1902
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:50,240
Speaker 12: traumatized and in shock. People from the museum event brought

1903
01:46:50,360 --> 01:46:52,360
Speaker 12: him water, and when they asked him if he was

1904
01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:56,160
Speaker 12: okay or if he was injured, Rodriguez requested the police.

1905
01:46:56,800 --> 01:47:00,640
Speaker 12: When cops arrived, he allegedly admitted to the shooting, and,

1906
01:47:00,760 --> 01:47:04,160
Speaker 12: according to witnesses, quote grabbed a red cafea out of

1907
01:47:04,160 --> 01:47:08,400
Speaker 12: his pocket. And started free Palestine chance quote there is

1908
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:12,960
Speaker 12: only one solution, Antifada revolution unquote. While being arrested and

1909
01:47:12,960 --> 01:47:16,000
Speaker 12: taken out of the building, he chanted free Free Palestine.

1910
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:20,400
Speaker 12: Israel's ambassador to the US claimed that the two victims

1911
01:47:20,400 --> 01:47:26,080
Speaker 12: were deliberately targeted as Israeli embassy employees, and that Rariguez

1912
01:47:26,200 --> 01:47:29,759
Speaker 12: mingled with attendees at the reception earlier that evening before

1913
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:33,240
Speaker 12: raising suspicion and being asked to leave. Although the organization

1914
01:47:33,320 --> 01:47:37,200
Speaker 12: who put on this event, the American Jewish Committee, disputes

1915
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 12: this account. They say that Rodriguez tried to register for

1916
01:47:41,040 --> 01:47:44,479
Speaker 12: their event but was denied entry following a background check.

1917
01:47:45,320 --> 01:47:49,000
Speaker 12: Rodriguez is a lifelong Chicago resident. He got an English

1918
01:47:49,040 --> 01:47:52,400
Speaker 12: degree at the University of Chicago, legally bought a gun

1919
01:47:52,439 --> 01:47:55,800
Speaker 12: in Illinois and flew with it to d S the

1920
01:47:55,960 --> 01:48:00,320
Speaker 12: night before the shooting. This event was an American Jewish

1921
01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:05,760
Speaker 12: Committee Access DC Young Diplomat's Reception. The description for the

1922
01:48:05,760 --> 01:48:08,400
Speaker 12: event reads quote, this special event brings together Jewish young

1923
01:48:08,400 --> 01:48:10,880
Speaker 12: professionals age twenty two to forty five and the DC

1924
01:48:11,040 --> 01:48:14,040
Speaker 12: diplomatic community for an evening dedicated to fostering unity and

1925
01:48:14,040 --> 01:48:17,799
Speaker 12: celebrating Jewish heritage. Join us for heavy appetizers, cocktails, conversations

1926
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:20,360
Speaker 12: and a special guest speaker. We are excited to introduce

1927
01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:24,040
Speaker 12: this year's theme, turning Pain into Purpose. Here from members

1928
01:48:24,040 --> 01:48:27,439
Speaker 12: of the Multi Faith Alliance and Israel as they delve

1929
01:48:27,479 --> 01:48:30,720
Speaker 12: into humanitarian diplomacy and have a coalition of organizations from

1930
01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:32,960
Speaker 12: the region and for the Region are working together in

1931
01:48:33,000 --> 01:48:36,360
Speaker 12: response to humanitarian crises through the Middle East and North

1932
01:48:36,400 --> 01:48:42,200
Speaker 12: Africa regions. The two victims were a young couple, Sarah

1933
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:46,920
Speaker 12: Milgram and Ran Lisinski, twenty six and thirty, who met

1934
01:48:46,960 --> 01:48:50,759
Speaker 12: through their work at the embassy. Lozinski identified as a Christian,

1935
01:48:51,000 --> 01:48:53,439
Speaker 12: though he was born in Israel and moved to Germany

1936
01:48:53,439 --> 01:48:56,240
Speaker 12: as a kid, then returned to Israel and served in

1937
01:48:56,240 --> 01:49:00,400
Speaker 12: the IDF. There is an alternative claim that he was

1938
01:49:00,439 --> 01:49:03,720
Speaker 12: born in Nuremberg and then moved to Israel as a teenager,

1939
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:07,519
Speaker 12: but most reporting says that he was born in Israel.

1940
01:49:08,320 --> 01:49:11,519
Speaker 12: In the aftermath of the shooting, politicians widely condemned this

1941
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:15,400
Speaker 12: as anti Semitic violence. The acting US Attorney said that

1942
01:49:15,400 --> 01:49:17,680
Speaker 12: they are investigating the cases a hate crime and an

1943
01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:22,320
Speaker 12: act of terrorism. Dan Bongino, Deputy FBI Director, said the

1944
01:49:22,360 --> 01:49:26,519
Speaker 12: shooting was a quote act of targeted violence. The Israeli

1945
01:49:26,520 --> 01:49:29,799
Speaker 12: foreign minister and net Yahoo have laid blame at college

1946
01:49:29,840 --> 01:49:33,840
Speaker 12: protesters and foreign government officials, including the leaders of France,

1947
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:37,160
Speaker 12: Britain in Canada, accusing them of blood libel for talking

1948
01:49:37,200 --> 01:49:41,240
Speaker 12: about Israel's quote supposed genocide and crimes against humanity unquote,

1949
01:49:41,640 --> 01:49:45,560
Speaker 12: and calling such rhetoric critical of Israel quote unquote incitement.

1950
01:49:46,520 --> 01:49:50,400
Speaker 12: Natanyahu said, quote free Palestine is just today's version of

1951
01:49:50,520 --> 01:49:54,479
Speaker 12: Hyle Hitler Jesus Christ. They don't want a Palestinian state.

1952
01:49:54,760 --> 01:49:57,080
Speaker 12: They want to destroy the Jewish state. They want to

1953
01:49:57,080 --> 01:49:59,479
Speaker 12: annihilate all Jewish people who have been in the land

1954
01:49:59,479 --> 01:50:01,759
Speaker 12: of Israel for three thousand, five hundred years.

1955
01:50:03,240 --> 01:50:06,280
Speaker 2: This is, obviously, I think, in a lot of ways

1956
01:50:06,720 --> 01:50:10,720
Speaker 2: the kind of thing net yahoo has been waiting for,

1957
01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:13,280
Speaker 2: and probably the kind of thing that a number of

1958
01:50:13,280 --> 01:50:15,960
Speaker 2: folks in that Trump is put in federal law enforcement

1959
01:50:16,000 --> 01:50:17,760
Speaker 2: have been waiting for because it provides them with some

1960
01:50:17,800 --> 01:50:23,720
Speaker 2: opportunities to continue their push to criminalize student organizing and

1961
01:50:24,000 --> 01:50:26,120
Speaker 2: organizing against.

1962
01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:26,920
Speaker 7: Israeli war crimes.

1963
01:50:27,000 --> 01:50:27,439
Speaker 5: Right like.

1964
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:29,920
Speaker 2: The argument they want to be able to make is

1965
01:50:29,960 --> 01:50:33,439
Speaker 2: that just saying free Palestine is an active terrorism and

1966
01:50:33,680 --> 01:50:36,839
Speaker 2: there was an act of terrorism here, right, Like shooting

1967
01:50:37,040 --> 01:50:40,640
Speaker 2: two embassy employees for the crimes of their government, Like,

1968
01:50:40,720 --> 01:50:42,559
Speaker 2: that is a clear act of terrorism.

1969
01:50:42,640 --> 01:50:42,800
Speaker 5: Right.

1970
01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:45,680
Speaker 2: You can feel however you want to about it, but

1971
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:48,519
Speaker 2: like that's the definition of what was done. But the

1972
01:50:48,600 --> 01:50:51,320
Speaker 2: things he was chanting were not part of the active terrorism.

1973
01:50:51,360 --> 01:50:53,400
Speaker 2: The fact that he shot people to death was the

1974
01:50:53,439 --> 01:50:54,440
Speaker 2: active terrorism.

1975
01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:57,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the murdering people that's the terrorism.

1976
01:50:57,600 --> 01:51:00,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is already illegal, by the way, and

1977
01:51:01,000 --> 01:51:03,519
Speaker 2: quite heavily, I'll be interested. We don't seem to know

1978
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:06,000
Speaker 2: much about where he got the firearm.

1979
01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:06,839
Speaker 7: Yet that I've come across.

1980
01:51:06,920 --> 01:51:08,839
Speaker 12: So he legally purchased it in Illinois.

1981
01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, he bought it in Illinois, which has like fairly strict.

1982
01:51:13,360 --> 01:51:15,639
Speaker 4: Gun laws, Yes, some of the strictest in the US.

1983
01:51:16,040 --> 01:51:19,439
Speaker 2: So it's one of those things where there's already quite

1984
01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:22,360
Speaker 2: a bit of regulation around everything that he did here.

1985
01:51:22,400 --> 01:51:25,960
Speaker 2: But fundamentally, if you're able to buy guns, which you

1986
01:51:26,040 --> 01:51:29,280
Speaker 2: are because this, you know, if there's an amendment, there

1987
01:51:29,320 --> 01:51:32,280
Speaker 2: will be people who carry out attacks like this. And

1988
01:51:32,439 --> 01:51:35,400
Speaker 2: I don't really know there certainly didn't seem to be

1989
01:51:35,920 --> 01:51:39,800
Speaker 2: outside of this guy's personal chats with his friends. A

1990
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:42,439
Speaker 2: lot of evidence that would have set him on anybody's radar.

1991
01:51:42,560 --> 01:51:45,040
Speaker 2: He had been at like a PSL Party for Socialism

1992
01:51:45,040 --> 01:51:48,160
Speaker 2: and Liberation march in twenty seventeen or something, but like,

1993
01:51:48,200 --> 01:51:51,320
Speaker 2: this wasn't a guy who had a history of violence

1994
01:51:51,439 --> 01:51:54,880
Speaker 2: or anything like that. And quite frankly, that's just a

1995
01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:57,360
Speaker 2: reality of the country that we live in, is that

1996
01:51:57,479 --> 01:52:00,680
Speaker 2: when people like this decide to carry out shootings for

1997
01:52:00,720 --> 01:52:04,880
Speaker 2: whatever reason, the odds of catching them are extraordinarily low.

1998
01:52:05,240 --> 01:52:08,599
Speaker 12: It's very hard to flag for a guy specifically like

1999
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:10,639
Speaker 12: like this because there's a lot of them out there.

2000
01:52:10,760 --> 01:52:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and most of them don't do shootings.

2001
01:52:13,880 --> 01:52:17,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, this active been widely condemned. Like pro Palestine commentators

2002
01:52:17,920 --> 01:52:21,920
Speaker 12: have said that this style of like adventurist terrorism does

2003
01:52:21,960 --> 01:52:24,160
Speaker 12: nothing to help the Palestine people and in fact only

2004
01:52:24,200 --> 01:52:27,639
Speaker 12: hurts them and plays into what like the Israel lobby

2005
01:52:28,280 --> 01:52:31,240
Speaker 12: and Natya who have been like wanting to happen for

2006
01:52:31,280 --> 01:52:31,679
Speaker 12: a while.

2007
01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:32,599
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2008
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:38,080
Speaker 4: I think kat Aboukazela, a Parastalian American woman he's running

2009
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:40,200
Speaker 4: for office in Illinois.

2010
01:52:39,680 --> 01:52:41,839
Speaker 7: Worked it for Media Matters for years.

2011
01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:42,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2012
01:52:42,320 --> 01:52:44,280
Speaker 7: It does a lot of videos. Yeah.

2013
01:52:44,439 --> 01:52:46,920
Speaker 4: Yeah. Anyway, I saw that she'd she had something about

2014
01:52:46,920 --> 01:52:51,320
Speaker 4: how like yeah, this was something that evidently should be condemned. Right,

2015
01:52:51,320 --> 01:52:53,960
Speaker 4: that is wrong, and it's not advancing the cause of

2016
01:52:54,040 --> 01:52:57,080
Speaker 4: Palestinian freedom, Like I think adventurist terrorism is a good

2017
01:52:57,080 --> 01:53:00,519
Speaker 4: way to describe it. Geah, just getting panned by people

2018
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:05,000
Speaker 4: on the internet, which like I don't know people engaging

2019
01:53:05,760 --> 01:53:08,080
Speaker 4: with this like from a place it doesn't come from,

2020
01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:11,400
Speaker 4: Like it's bad when random folks get shot killed.

2021
01:53:11,760 --> 01:53:16,519
Speaker 12: No, people have have used the horrific genocide as a

2022
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:20,120
Speaker 12: way to like channel their general societal frustration and find

2023
01:53:20,120 --> 01:53:23,680
Speaker 12: a way to like just act incredibly hostile like to

2024
01:53:23,840 --> 01:53:27,880
Speaker 12: actual Palestinians. Yeah, yeah, yeah, who don't share the exact

2025
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:31,920
Speaker 12: same like anti imperialist TM views that they might have. Right,

2026
01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:35,080
Speaker 12: it's just permission to abuse people online.

2027
01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:39,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, deeply, like verbally violent and like no like psycho shit.

2028
01:53:40,320 --> 01:53:43,120
Speaker 12: And this guy engaged in that kind of stuff as

2029
01:53:43,160 --> 01:53:44,639
Speaker 12: well as well as we'll see.

2030
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:45,479
Speaker 4: Let's talk about that.

2031
01:53:45,760 --> 01:53:49,080
Speaker 12: Let's get a little bit into his background. So he

2032
01:53:49,120 --> 01:53:52,200
Speaker 12: has a manifesto that he posted on his Twitter account.

2033
01:53:52,080 --> 01:53:54,479
Speaker 2: And it's it's kojent like in terms of it's not

2034
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:57,759
Speaker 2: the ramblings of like a madman or something. There's nothing

2035
01:53:57,920 --> 01:53:58,200
Speaker 2: like it.

2036
01:53:58,320 --> 01:54:00,960
Speaker 12: All He has an English degree, right, you know, to write. Yeah,

2037
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:03,439
Speaker 12: he has worked as a writer for like almost a decade.

2038
01:54:03,560 --> 01:54:06,000
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, I mean that in terms of, like

2039
01:54:06,000 --> 01:54:07,880
Speaker 2: it's very clear what he's trying to say. There's not

2040
01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:10,760
Speaker 2: any evidence here of like a disconnect or whatever. He's

2041
01:54:10,840 --> 01:54:14,360
Speaker 2: not doing this because he's blaming Israel for making the

2042
01:54:14,439 --> 01:54:16,800
Speaker 2: weather bad or whatever, right, right, yeah.

2043
01:54:16,920 --> 01:54:17,680
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2044
01:54:17,840 --> 01:54:20,920
Speaker 12: The manifesto is title to Escalate for Gaza, Bring the

2045
01:54:20,920 --> 01:54:24,200
Speaker 12: War Home, and he attempts to explain the rationale behind

2046
01:54:24,320 --> 01:54:28,839
Speaker 12: his actions. He starts by discussing the unknown total scale

2047
01:54:28,920 --> 01:54:32,000
Speaker 12: of dead Palestinians, writing that quote atrocity is committed by

2048
01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:37,160
Speaker 12: Israelis against Palestine. Defy description and defy quantification. He writes

2049
01:54:37,160 --> 01:54:40,240
Speaker 12: about how, despite protests and shifts in public opinion, the

2050
01:54:40,320 --> 01:54:44,120
Speaker 12: US government has continually refused to reign in Israel and

2051
01:54:44,200 --> 01:54:48,720
Speaker 12: instead moves to criminalize dissent. He talks about armed action. Quote.

2052
01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:52,040
Speaker 12: An armed action is not necessarily a military action. It

2053
01:54:52,160 --> 01:54:56,160
Speaker 12: usually is not. Usually it is theater and spectacle, a

2054
01:54:56,280 --> 01:54:59,080
Speaker 12: quality it shares in many unarmed actions.

2055
01:55:00,520 --> 01:55:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do find you know, one of the

2056
01:55:02,800 --> 01:55:06,320
Speaker 2: first things that happened when this attack was carried out

2057
01:55:06,360 --> 01:55:09,400
Speaker 2: was people started theorizing that this had been some Nazi

2058
01:55:10,040 --> 01:55:13,360
Speaker 2: who was using this to using the propouse and cost

2059
01:55:13,480 --> 01:55:16,680
Speaker 2: like camouflage as Nazism, and I don't think that the

2060
01:55:16,720 --> 01:55:19,920
Speaker 2: preponderance of evidence suggests that there are two weird things.

2061
01:55:20,160 --> 01:55:23,200
Speaker 2: One of them is that this guy's previous Twitter name

2062
01:55:24,000 --> 01:55:26,440
Speaker 2: was Habbo eighty eight, and he was not born in

2063
01:55:26,520 --> 01:55:29,280
Speaker 2: eighty eight, obviously whenever you see an eighty eight in.

2064
01:55:29,280 --> 01:55:32,000
Speaker 4: The Native Curse Millennial. And the other is.

2065
01:55:31,960 --> 01:55:35,520
Speaker 2: That the bring the war home reference in his manifesto,

2066
01:55:35,640 --> 01:55:38,600
Speaker 2: which is basically a reference to something that I believe

2067
01:55:38,720 --> 01:55:42,280
Speaker 2: was Louis Beam, who is a neo Nazi organizer, said

2068
01:55:42,360 --> 01:55:45,840
Speaker 2: about trying to get Vietnam veterans to essentially bring the

2069
01:55:45,880 --> 01:55:49,680
Speaker 2: war home to the United States in order to spark

2070
01:55:49,680 --> 01:55:53,080
Speaker 2: a race war. And those two little things are weird. However,

2071
01:55:53,600 --> 01:55:56,920
Speaker 2: the rest of this guy's fairly well documented history and

2072
01:55:57,000 --> 01:56:01,760
Speaker 2: background does not suggest anything like that, So I don't

2073
01:56:01,800 --> 01:56:05,440
Speaker 2: think that that's the credible thing to blame this on.

2074
01:56:05,880 --> 01:56:09,440
Speaker 12: Quite frankly, Yeah, I'll go over some of that background

2075
01:56:09,600 --> 01:56:10,240
Speaker 12: in brief.

2076
01:56:10,400 --> 01:56:11,280
Speaker 15: Yeah.

2077
01:56:11,600 --> 01:56:15,160
Speaker 12: He also talked about targeting government representatives, quote the impunity

2078
01:56:15,200 --> 01:56:17,600
Speaker 12: that representatives of our government feel at a Bedding that

2079
01:56:17,640 --> 01:56:21,440
Speaker 12: this slaughter should be revealed as an illusion. He then

2080
01:56:21,480 --> 01:56:23,160
Speaker 12: tells the story of a man who tried to throw

2081
01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:27,600
Speaker 12: Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara off a boat into the sea.

2082
01:56:28,440 --> 01:56:31,480
Speaker 12: He finishes with his thoughts on the quote unquote morality

2083
01:56:31,560 --> 01:56:35,480
Speaker 12: of armed demonstration, where he discusses this tendency to dehumanize

2084
01:56:35,480 --> 01:56:37,800
Speaker 12: the perpetrators of atrocities as a method for us to

2085
01:56:37,840 --> 01:56:41,080
Speaker 12: cope with the monstrous evil that ordinary humans are capable of.

2086
01:56:41,880 --> 01:56:42,400
Speaker 14: Quote.

2087
01:56:42,840 --> 01:56:46,280
Speaker 12: This action would have been morally justified taken eleven years

2088
01:56:46,320 --> 01:56:49,680
Speaker 12: ago during Protective Edge, around the time I personally became

2089
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:53,120
Speaker 12: acutely aware of our brutal conduct in Palestine. But I

2090
01:56:53,160 --> 01:56:56,280
Speaker 12: think to most Americans such an action would have been illegible.

2091
01:56:56,680 --> 01:57:00,560
Speaker 12: It would seem insane. I'm glad that today, at least

2092
01:57:00,720 --> 01:57:03,400
Speaker 12: there are many Americans for which the action will be

2093
01:57:03,560 --> 01:57:07,360
Speaker 12: highly legible and, in some funny way, the only sane

2094
01:57:07,400 --> 01:57:10,840
Speaker 12: thing to do unquote. It did find it interesting that

2095
01:57:10,960 --> 01:57:14,440
Speaker 12: on December fifth, twenty twenty four, Rodriguez posted on his

2096
01:57:14,520 --> 01:57:18,600
Speaker 12: Twitter account that quote eighty percent of the country applauds

2097
01:57:18,640 --> 01:57:22,200
Speaker 12: the targeted annihilation of a healthcare insurance executive.

2098
01:57:22,680 --> 01:57:22,960
Speaker 7: Quote.

2099
01:57:23,920 --> 01:57:28,760
Speaker 12: As for his political background, Rodriguez identifies as a Maoist

2100
01:57:29,240 --> 01:57:33,800
Speaker 12: third worldiest yeah, and believes that the global seuth alone

2101
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:39,480
Speaker 12: has quote unquote revolutionary potential. A friend of Rodriguez described

2102
01:57:39,480 --> 01:57:42,640
Speaker 12: his politics to journalist KNK Clippenstein like this quote. He

2103
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:50,080
Speaker 12: was a big proponent of the emerging resistance axis of Russia, Iran, Hesbula, Assad, Syria.

2104
01:57:50,240 --> 01:57:50,840
Speaker 7: How'd that go?

2105
01:57:51,040 --> 01:57:54,480
Speaker 12: He seemed pretty vocally in favor of Hamas for years,

2106
01:57:54,600 --> 01:57:58,120
Speaker 12: way before twenty twenty three. He'd always hated Israel and

2107
01:57:58,160 --> 01:58:00,680
Speaker 12: would call it, quote the little Satan.

2108
01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:06,560
Speaker 4: For fox sake, they Asad test are in supreme as Yeah,

2109
01:58:06,720 --> 01:58:10,200
Speaker 4: it's a fucking ab test for someone having shitty politics.

2110
01:58:10,520 --> 01:58:14,360
Speaker 12: Yeah, with the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed by aside.

2111
01:58:14,080 --> 01:58:17,120
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, Asad who gaffed his own people who murdered

2112
01:58:17,120 --> 01:58:18,120
Speaker 4: little children.

2113
01:58:17,920 --> 01:58:22,880
Speaker 2: Including thousands and thousands of Palestinians by the way, Yeah yeah, Like,

2114
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:28,120
Speaker 2: but again, you shouldn't expect coherence or particularly well informed

2115
01:58:28,120 --> 01:58:29,360
Speaker 2: opinions out of folks.

2116
01:58:29,840 --> 01:58:30,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2117
01:58:30,080 --> 01:58:30,160
Speaker 4: This.

2118
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:33,440
Speaker 12: His online presence mirrors what I would call like the

2119
01:58:33,440 --> 01:58:38,040
Speaker 12: typical like anti imperialist TM poster where he's there is

2120
01:58:38,080 --> 01:58:41,560
Speaker 12: most of his frustration at the Democrats sometimes at Republicans,

2121
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:47,680
Speaker 12: but mostly yeah, posts about being pro Russia, Iran, Hesbala,

2122
01:58:47,960 --> 01:58:51,360
Speaker 12: pro Asade, and particularly the past few years posting a

2123
01:58:51,360 --> 01:58:55,040
Speaker 12: lot of a Palestine right with explicit defense and like

2124
01:58:55,160 --> 01:58:59,360
Speaker 12: veneration of Hamas. The same friend that talked to Klippenstein

2125
01:58:59,480 --> 01:59:01,920
Speaker 12: also said, quote, it's driving me crazy that people are

2126
01:59:01,960 --> 01:59:05,200
Speaker 12: calling it a false flag. This development is shocking, but

2127
01:59:05,240 --> 01:59:08,400
Speaker 12: not completely out of character. Yeah, he always had strong

2128
01:59:08,480 --> 01:59:12,040
Speaker 12: political convictions. From the sound of the manifesto, he's the

2129
01:59:12,080 --> 01:59:13,200
Speaker 12: same as he was.

2130
01:59:13,800 --> 01:59:17,720
Speaker 7: Quote. Yeah, and I mean that seems true.

2131
01:59:17,760 --> 01:59:21,200
Speaker 2: Again, we still don't have a like a perfect knowledge

2132
01:59:21,240 --> 01:59:23,920
Speaker 2: of all of this guy's you know, online life. No,

2133
01:59:24,160 --> 01:59:26,640
Speaker 2: this is just a week away, but based on what

2134
01:59:26,960 --> 01:59:31,760
Speaker 2: Kin's posted, based on this interview, that makes complete sense. Yeah, right,

2135
01:59:32,240 --> 01:59:34,720
Speaker 2: I like I don't have any trouble believing that for

2136
01:59:34,760 --> 01:59:35,640
Speaker 2: a number of reasons.

2137
01:59:35,680 --> 01:59:38,080
Speaker 12: No, absolutely, this is this is not a false flag attack.

2138
01:59:38,160 --> 01:59:40,000
Speaker 12: That's that's conspiratorial nonsense.

2139
01:59:40,160 --> 01:59:42,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's this guy did a thing that

2140
01:59:42,720 --> 01:59:46,360
Speaker 2: he's sincerely believed in, and it seems like everything he'd

2141
01:59:46,400 --> 01:59:48,840
Speaker 2: been expressing in the year or two leading up to

2142
01:59:48,920 --> 01:59:51,560
Speaker 2: doing this, you know, was consistent with what he did.

2143
01:59:51,960 --> 01:59:55,560
Speaker 12: Now, Rodriguez was affiliated with the Chicago PSL Party for

2144
01:59:55,600 --> 01:59:58,840
Speaker 12: socialistm in Liberation back in twenty seventeen, and spoke to

2145
01:59:58,880 --> 02:00:02,280
Speaker 12: the media on their behalf, though he would later regret

2146
02:00:02,400 --> 02:00:07,000
Speaker 12: his association with the group, telling friends quote, PSL sucks shit.

2147
02:00:07,240 --> 02:00:10,360
Speaker 12: I wish I had just done a misadventure with the

2148
02:00:10,400 --> 02:00:14,320
Speaker 12: Freedom Road Socialist organization rather than the PSL.

2149
02:00:14,320 --> 02:00:16,480
Speaker 7: Lol YEA.

2150
02:00:16,920 --> 02:00:20,320
Speaker 12: Rodriguez remained somewhat politically active in Chicago. In twenty twenty three,

2151
02:00:20,360 --> 02:00:23,000
Speaker 12: he posted video from a local pro Palestine march on

2152
02:00:23,040 --> 02:00:27,280
Speaker 12: his Twitter account. Clippenstein spoke with at least five friends

2153
02:00:27,280 --> 02:00:30,120
Speaker 12: of his, who all claimed that they never heard Rodriguez

2154
02:00:30,120 --> 02:00:33,760
Speaker 12: express anti Semitic sentiments. Now, one of Arigue's friends gave

2155
02:00:33,800 --> 02:00:38,200
Speaker 12: Clippenstein access to a years old private WhatsApp group chat

2156
02:00:38,320 --> 02:00:41,720
Speaker 12: that Rodriguez frequently posted in, including up to a day

2157
02:00:41,760 --> 02:00:45,040
Speaker 12: before the shooting. Clippenstein says, quote, the messages don't reveal

2158
02:00:45,080 --> 02:00:48,320
Speaker 12: any hatred of Jews per se, but they do portray

2159
02:00:48,360 --> 02:00:52,160
Speaker 12: an often bitter man who hated all sorts of other things,

2160
02:00:52,480 --> 02:00:55,840
Speaker 12: especially Israel and its Warren Gaza unquote, and from what

2161
02:00:55,920 --> 02:00:58,840
Speaker 12: we conceived of the chats that kind has posted, this

2162
02:00:59,080 --> 02:01:02,760
Speaker 12: matches pretty well, well, A chat member wrote, quote, I'm

2163
02:01:02,760 --> 02:01:06,560
Speaker 12: almost surprised you're not anti Semitic elias. It usually goes

2164
02:01:06,600 --> 02:01:09,840
Speaker 12: hand in hand with the whole Stalin did nothing wrong mantra.

2165
02:01:11,040 --> 02:01:13,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and his response to this was like, Stalin ended,

2166
02:01:14,040 --> 02:01:17,160
Speaker 2: you know, among other things, Stalin ended the greatest anti

2167
02:01:17,160 --> 02:01:19,520
Speaker 2: Semitic state in history, which I've seen his evidence that

2168
02:01:19,560 --> 02:01:23,640
Speaker 2: he wasn't pro Stalin. He just supported Stalin, you know,

2169
02:01:23,800 --> 02:01:27,520
Speaker 2: defeating the Nazis. But he says like among other things,

2170
02:01:27,640 --> 02:01:30,680
Speaker 2: So he clearly got a number of reasons he likes Stalin.

2171
02:01:30,880 --> 02:01:33,680
Speaker 12: Yeah, from the exchanges with his friends, this guy's clearly

2172
02:01:33,720 --> 02:01:35,920
Speaker 12: like a like a tanky anti imperialist type.

2173
02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:38,720
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, yeah, a million such examples.

2174
02:01:38,960 --> 02:01:42,280
Speaker 12: The only time he talked about race explicitly was the

2175
02:01:42,840 --> 02:01:46,800
Speaker 12: lambast white people quote. Lol, you probably would have to

2176
02:01:46,840 --> 02:01:49,720
Speaker 12: actually genesied white people to make this a normal country.

2177
02:01:50,200 --> 02:01:53,880
Speaker 12: Like even a very targeted and selective rehabilitation program would

2178
02:01:53,920 --> 02:01:57,800
Speaker 12: probably have to lead to the lifetime imprisonments of tens

2179
02:01:57,840 --> 02:01:59,200
Speaker 12: of millions of white people.

2180
02:01:59,360 --> 02:02:02,240
Speaker 4: On quest, Uh, there's a Stalin did nothing really. Yeah,

2181
02:02:02,240 --> 02:02:04,800
Speaker 4: there's that rained type that we were looking for.

2182
02:02:05,400 --> 02:02:07,840
Speaker 2: Well, and again, it's one of those things we're talking

2183
02:02:07,840 --> 02:02:10,720
Speaker 2: about this because there's a bunch of guys who expressed

2184
02:02:10,720 --> 02:02:14,000
Speaker 2: similar views. This is the only one who's done as shooting.

2185
02:02:14,000 --> 02:02:16,440
Speaker 2: When we talk about this making sense, we're not talking

2186
02:02:16,480 --> 02:02:20,240
Speaker 2: about this like as evidence that like, oh, someone who's

2187
02:02:20,360 --> 02:02:24,160
Speaker 2: a fucking tanky type is like is likely to commit

2188
02:02:24,200 --> 02:02:26,120
Speaker 2: a mass shooting, right, they go hand in hand.

2189
02:02:26,160 --> 02:02:27,880
Speaker 12: No, this is the first time of take he's done anything.

2190
02:02:27,920 --> 02:02:29,400
Speaker 7: This is the first one of these I've heard of

2191
02:02:29,760 --> 02:02:31,280
Speaker 7: in quite quite a long time.

2192
02:02:32,000 --> 02:02:33,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just this guy.

2193
02:02:33,320 --> 02:02:35,240
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of people who expressed similar things to

2194
02:02:35,280 --> 02:02:36,240
Speaker 2: this guy, right, yeah.

2195
02:02:36,320 --> 02:02:36,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2196
02:02:36,600 --> 02:02:39,880
Speaker 12: On October seventh, he celebrated the Hamas attack. Quote just

2197
02:02:39,880 --> 02:02:42,280
Speaker 12: saw an incredibly gory video of the aftermath of Israeli

2198
02:02:42,320 --> 02:02:45,360
Speaker 12: troops trying to get dressed for the ambush, absolutely massacred

2199
02:02:45,360 --> 02:02:50,360
Speaker 12: by Hamas fighters. I am ao love checking back in

2200
02:02:50,360 --> 02:02:52,640
Speaker 12: with the news every few hours, like, hmm, I wonder

2201
02:02:52,640 --> 02:02:55,480
Speaker 12: if Israel still exists. You don't often get to credibly

2202
02:02:55,520 --> 02:02:57,760
Speaker 12: wonder if Israel is over yet today or not.

2203
02:02:58,240 --> 02:03:01,920
Speaker 2: Unquote yeah, and again, like that just kind of shows

2204
02:03:02,040 --> 02:03:04,360
Speaker 2: the general lack of knowledge.

2205
02:03:03,960 --> 02:03:05,400
Speaker 12: A level of political delusion.

2206
02:03:05,760 --> 02:03:09,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like a lot of kind of telegram propaganda

2207
02:03:09,560 --> 02:03:11,640
Speaker 4: consumption type worldview here.

2208
02:03:11,720 --> 02:03:14,200
Speaker 2: Yes, and can convince you that what's happening is different

2209
02:03:14,240 --> 02:03:15,080
Speaker 2: from the reality.

2210
02:03:15,840 --> 02:03:16,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2211
02:03:16,800 --> 02:03:18,960
Speaker 12: In this chat, he lmented to friends and expressed sorrow

2212
02:03:19,000 --> 02:03:21,160
Speaker 12: at the deaths of Hamas and has been of leaders

2213
02:03:21,920 --> 02:03:25,720
Speaker 12: and sometimes his ire was directed at other members of

2214
02:03:25,760 --> 02:03:29,000
Speaker 12: this leaked chat, at one point going on an unhinged

2215
02:03:29,120 --> 02:03:32,360
Speaker 12: ablest rant attacking one of his friends for being privileged

2216
02:03:32,520 --> 02:03:36,080
Speaker 12: after they discussed the challenges of having a brother with cazophrenia. Quote,

2217
02:03:36,360 --> 02:03:39,200
Speaker 12: why not just have him committed. You can't possibly be

2218
02:03:39,280 --> 02:03:41,440
Speaker 12: gaining anything from a relationship with a person like that.

2219
02:03:41,960 --> 02:03:44,040
Speaker 12: Just put him in a padded room and forget about him.

2220
02:03:44,280 --> 02:03:45,120
Speaker 7: Jesus Christ.

2221
02:03:45,400 --> 02:03:47,480
Speaker 12: If there was a person you loved, he's gone.

2222
02:03:47,560 --> 02:03:48,400
Speaker 4: Now let it go.

2223
02:03:48,920 --> 02:03:50,880
Speaker 12: Can you just chain him in the basement and slide

2224
02:03:50,920 --> 02:03:53,120
Speaker 12: meals under the door. I'm just tired of hearing about

2225
02:03:53,120 --> 02:03:55,840
Speaker 12: this guy. He's useless, we get it. Stop complaining and

2226
02:03:55,880 --> 02:03:56,680
Speaker 12: just dispose of him.

2227
02:03:57,120 --> 02:03:58,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, Jesus Christ.

2228
02:03:59,280 --> 02:04:02,640
Speaker 4: I mean this goes with the people who I don't know,

2229
02:04:02,680 --> 02:04:05,600
Speaker 4: aren't useful to me, are of no value? Right that

2230
02:04:05,640 --> 02:04:08,760
Speaker 4: people don't have inherent value and you know they don't

2231
02:04:08,960 --> 02:04:11,960
Speaker 4: agree with or are useful to him, then fuck them.

2232
02:04:11,960 --> 02:04:14,680
Speaker 4: They can die. Like, I guess there's some kind of

2233
02:04:14,720 --> 02:04:15,560
Speaker 4: coherence there.

2234
02:04:16,080 --> 02:04:19,320
Speaker 12: Well, Robert, you want to mention the Something.

2235
02:04:19,040 --> 02:04:21,440
Speaker 7: Awful, Yes, I do, Garrison.

2236
02:04:21,640 --> 02:04:24,800
Speaker 2: So the other thing that came out in Ken's article

2237
02:04:25,080 --> 02:04:29,040
Speaker 2: is that this dude was a poster. Well, his friends

2238
02:04:29,080 --> 02:04:32,120
Speaker 2: described him as a dedicated poster, which is the worst

2239
02:04:32,160 --> 02:04:35,840
Speaker 2: thing you can be described as being, and noted that

2240
02:04:35,880 --> 02:04:37,640
Speaker 2: he had been There had been some when it came

2241
02:04:37,640 --> 02:04:40,040
Speaker 2: out that like his former Twitter user name had been

2242
02:04:40,120 --> 02:04:43,240
Speaker 2: like Habbo eighty eight. That was very clearly a reference

2243
02:04:43,280 --> 02:04:47,080
Speaker 2: to a game called Habo Hotel that if you're gen Z,

2244
02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:52,160
Speaker 2: there's very good odds you don't remember. But it was

2245
02:04:52,760 --> 02:04:54,560
Speaker 2: a big thing for people who were on four Chan

2246
02:04:54,680 --> 02:04:56,840
Speaker 2: and who were on Something Awful. And Something Awful was

2247
02:04:56,880 --> 02:04:59,080
Speaker 2: the website that gave birth to four Chan. It's where

2248
02:04:59,120 --> 02:05:02,240
Speaker 2: I was raised on the internet, and many many years ago,

2249
02:05:02,560 --> 02:05:05,440
Speaker 2: around the turn of the millennium, I think I don't

2250
02:05:05,440 --> 02:05:08,480
Speaker 2: remember the exact year, but we started gathering on this

2251
02:05:08,600 --> 02:05:11,640
Speaker 2: game for children. It was like an MMO for little kids,

2252
02:05:11,680 --> 02:05:14,200
Speaker 2: and like pretending to be members of a cult in

2253
02:05:14,280 --> 02:05:18,320
Speaker 2: order to like confuse small children. And then four Chan

2254
02:05:18,680 --> 02:05:20,600
Speaker 2: did their own version of that that was a bit

2255
02:05:20,640 --> 02:05:22,480
Speaker 2: more racist, which is often the case.

2256
02:05:22,800 --> 02:05:24,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, many such cases, Yeah, yeah.

2257
02:05:24,520 --> 02:05:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, many such cases. Anyway, when this came out, there

2258
02:05:27,640 --> 02:05:29,560
Speaker 2: was a debate. Was this guy a channer or was

2259
02:05:29,600 --> 02:05:32,120
Speaker 2: this guy a goon? You know, a member of the

2260
02:05:32,160 --> 02:05:34,920
Speaker 2: something Awful forums? And a lot of people thought I

2261
02:05:35,040 --> 02:05:37,400
Speaker 2: called goon. A lot of people thought shanner because of

2262
02:05:37,400 --> 02:05:39,680
Speaker 2: his age, he was a little bit young to have

2263
02:05:39,800 --> 02:05:42,200
Speaker 2: been a part of the something awful have a hotel things.

2264
02:05:42,240 --> 02:05:44,280
Speaker 2: I think it's actually likely or he did both, but

2265
02:05:44,920 --> 02:05:48,080
Speaker 2: his friends described him as somebody who was really into

2266
02:05:48,080 --> 02:05:51,680
Speaker 2: something awful, right, as somebody who had been influenced by

2267
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:54,520
Speaker 2: that in particularly a subset of the something awful forms

2268
02:05:54,720 --> 02:05:58,080
Speaker 2: called FIAD, which stands for fuck you and Die, which

2269
02:05:58,280 --> 02:06:01,480
Speaker 2: kind of pioneered a lot of them, those toxic aspects

2270
02:06:01,560 --> 02:06:02,960
Speaker 2: of online discourse.

2271
02:06:03,240 --> 02:06:04,360
Speaker 4: Apparently, Jesus.

2272
02:06:04,800 --> 02:06:08,000
Speaker 2: Now, folks have found at least one of his accounts

2273
02:06:08,000 --> 02:06:09,960
Speaker 2: that doesn't have a lot of posts, although that doesn't

2274
02:06:09,960 --> 02:06:12,680
Speaker 2: mean much because number one, he could have deleted a

2275
02:06:12,720 --> 02:06:15,600
Speaker 2: lot of stuff, which many people did when they got older.

2276
02:06:16,280 --> 02:06:18,720
Speaker 2: Number Two, he could have had another account, which is

2277
02:06:18,760 --> 02:06:22,720
Speaker 2: also the case. The one account that people know was

2278
02:06:22,800 --> 02:06:26,320
Speaker 2: his was banned for shooting and killing two him to

2279
02:06:26,440 --> 02:06:32,640
Speaker 2: see employees. There's reasons given in the ever lengthening something

2280
02:06:32,640 --> 02:06:36,640
Speaker 2: Awful ban list when somebody gets banned. Obviously, again, I

2281
02:06:36,640 --> 02:06:40,640
Speaker 2: don't think there's like a positive thing to him being Like,

2282
02:06:40,960 --> 02:06:43,280
Speaker 2: him being on something awful didn't cause him to shoot

2283
02:06:43,320 --> 02:06:45,680
Speaker 2: two people, but him being on something awful was a

2284
02:06:45,760 --> 02:06:48,760
Speaker 2: natural part of the progression that led to him being

2285
02:06:48,840 --> 02:06:53,000
Speaker 2: the kind of like toxic online asshole that he was.

2286
02:06:53,200 --> 02:06:55,120
Speaker 2: And sort of evidence of that is that one of

2287
02:06:55,160 --> 02:06:59,080
Speaker 2: the last things he had done online before the shooting

2288
02:06:59,760 --> 02:07:03,160
Speaker 2: was he had gotten briefly onto Blue Sky and then

2289
02:07:03,520 --> 02:07:07,160
Speaker 2: gotten in trouble for repeatedly harassing Will Stanzel, who's another

2290
02:07:07,280 --> 02:07:10,400
Speaker 2: annoying asshole on the Internet, who was also a something

2291
02:07:10,440 --> 02:07:13,680
Speaker 2: awful goon who was raised in this same chunk of

2292
02:07:13,720 --> 02:07:16,440
Speaker 2: the internet, and who became a similar kind of asshole,

2293
02:07:16,560 --> 02:07:20,040
Speaker 2: just with wildly different politics. And these two hated each other,

2294
02:07:20,360 --> 02:07:23,880
Speaker 2: and Elias like threatened to murder him over the internet

2295
02:07:24,320 --> 02:07:27,160
Speaker 2: because he's like, again that these guys, he's that type

2296
02:07:27,160 --> 02:07:29,200
Speaker 2: of guy. He's that type of guy, which doesn't mean again,

2297
02:07:29,240 --> 02:07:31,320
Speaker 2: which doesn't mean this is why he did a shooting

2298
02:07:31,400 --> 02:07:33,160
Speaker 2: or had anything to do with that, because there's a

2299
02:07:33,320 --> 02:07:36,160
Speaker 2: lot of this type of guy and almost none of

2300
02:07:36,200 --> 02:07:39,920
Speaker 2: them commit acts of terrorism. It just like his background

2301
02:07:39,960 --> 02:07:42,200
Speaker 2: makes complete sense for the kind of guy that we

2302
02:07:42,280 --> 02:07:43,640
Speaker 2: can see that he was online.

2303
02:07:43,880 --> 02:07:46,080
Speaker 12: The last thing I'll say about this is that you know,

2304
02:07:46,240 --> 02:07:49,040
Speaker 12: beyond this like senseless loss of life, which is like

2305
02:07:49,800 --> 02:07:53,720
Speaker 12: an issue in and of itself. Obviously, this also contributes

2306
02:07:53,720 --> 02:07:56,520
Speaker 12: to further loss of life in the way this plays

2307
02:07:56,520 --> 02:07:59,280
Speaker 12: into like media capture. Right now, we have a whole

2308
02:07:59,320 --> 02:08:02,760
Speaker 12: week where the new cycles dominated by two people getting

2309
02:08:02,800 --> 02:08:06,400
Speaker 12: murdered in the streets of DC, and this does not

2310
02:08:06,600 --> 02:08:10,000
Speaker 12: help the Palestinian people currently being killed by Israel. The

2311
02:08:10,040 --> 02:08:12,240
Speaker 12: exact same day that this happened, Wednesday, the twenty first,

2312
02:08:12,400 --> 02:08:15,440
Speaker 12: ninety three people were killed in Israeli attacks across the

2313
02:08:15,440 --> 02:08:17,560
Speaker 12: Gaza Strip and that type of stuff does not really

2314
02:08:17,600 --> 02:08:21,320
Speaker 12: get reported anymore because that's how media capture works. Americans

2315
02:08:21,320 --> 02:08:24,000
Speaker 12: are really good at getting desensitized to this in a

2316
02:08:24,040 --> 02:08:27,680
Speaker 12: large scale media environment, but stuff like this only serves

2317
02:08:27,560 --> 02:08:31,000
Speaker 12: as a distraction and fuels Israel's oone motivation for their

2318
02:08:31,120 --> 02:08:32,080
Speaker 12: continued actions.

2319
02:08:33,080 --> 02:08:36,640
Speaker 4: Talking of media capture, Garrison, we have been captured by

2320
02:08:36,640 --> 02:08:39,560
Speaker 4: the advertisers in this show it's true.

2321
02:08:39,720 --> 02:08:56,320
Speaker 12: There you go, and we are back. Another big news

2322
02:08:56,400 --> 02:08:59,520
Speaker 12: item from last week was the passing of the Big

2323
02:08:59,760 --> 02:09:03,520
Speaker 12: View full budget bill in the House. We'll talk more

2324
02:09:03,560 --> 02:09:06,640
Speaker 12: about this bill as it turns through the Senate, but first,

2325
02:09:06,800 --> 02:09:09,800
Speaker 12: our co host Mia Wong has a special report on

2326
02:09:09,840 --> 02:09:12,240
Speaker 12: how the bill targets trans healthcare.

2327
02:09:13,280 --> 02:09:15,800
Speaker 3: So we're going to talk a little bit about the

2328
02:09:15,840 --> 02:09:19,440
Speaker 3: budget bill that's currently working through a bunch of processes

2329
02:09:19,440 --> 02:09:22,080
Speaker 3: in the Senate, that's been passed by the House. I

2330
02:09:22,080 --> 02:09:25,080
Speaker 3: am Mia Wong, and with me to talk about how

2331
02:09:25,160 --> 02:09:29,560
Speaker 3: this budget specifically is unbelievably bad for trans people is

2332
02:09:29,600 --> 02:09:32,480
Speaker 3: Maddie Castikin from Mad Cast and Mirror Levine from The

2333
02:09:32,480 --> 02:09:34,920
Speaker 3: Free Radical. Glad to have both of you to hear.

2334
02:09:35,040 --> 02:09:37,360
Speaker 3: You've both been doing a bunch of journalism about this

2335
02:09:37,360 --> 02:09:40,480
Speaker 3: stuff specifically and what people can do about it. First,

2336
02:09:40,520 --> 02:09:43,200
Speaker 3: can you can you explain what is going on in

2337
02:09:43,240 --> 02:09:47,360
Speaker 3: this budget with the ban on trans healthcare using Medicaid?

2338
02:09:47,760 --> 02:09:48,000
Speaker 4: Yeah?

2339
02:09:48,040 --> 02:09:52,320
Speaker 5: Absolutely so. The budget bill, also known as House Resolution One,

2340
02:09:53,000 --> 02:09:57,520
Speaker 5: is this year's reconciliation bill, which is Congress basically deciding

2341
02:09:57,520 --> 02:09:59,520
Speaker 5: next year's budget and how they're going to allocate all

2342
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:03,360
Speaker 5: their fun this time around. Republicans socided it would be

2343
02:10:03,360 --> 02:10:07,840
Speaker 5: a great idea to push through. So what it was

2344
02:10:07,880 --> 02:10:12,760
Speaker 5: at first was a intense limitation on what Medicaid cover,

2345
02:10:12,920 --> 02:10:16,240
Speaker 5: essentially just humongous Medicaid cuts. And this is what I

2346
02:10:16,360 --> 02:10:19,280
Speaker 5: began investigating first. Me and Mattie were talking about it

2347
02:10:19,320 --> 02:10:21,400
Speaker 5: a bunch. She's the one who took me off to it.

2348
02:10:21,480 --> 02:10:24,680
Speaker 5: They started off by implementing huge cuts to Medicaid that

2349
02:10:24,720 --> 02:10:27,640
Speaker 5: would result in millions of people losing access to their healthcare,

2350
02:10:27,800 --> 02:10:30,520
Speaker 5: not even just trans people. Shortly after they announced these cuts,

2351
02:10:30,560 --> 02:10:34,720
Speaker 5: for instance, adapt a group of disabled activists. They are

2352
02:10:35,200 --> 02:10:39,120
Speaker 5: famous for being the ones who climbed up the steps

2353
02:10:39,240 --> 02:10:42,080
Speaker 5: of the I believe it was the Capitol Building in

2354
02:10:42,120 --> 02:10:46,360
Speaker 5: the nineties to raise awareness and help get the American

2355
02:10:46,400 --> 02:10:51,560
Speaker 5: Disabilities Act passed. They staged a protest on the United

2356
02:10:51,560 --> 02:10:56,520
Speaker 5: States Capital during a hearing for this bill where Republicans

2357
02:10:56,520 --> 02:10:59,520
Speaker 5: were just talking about it and praising themselves. Multiple activists

2358
02:10:59,560 --> 02:11:03,320
Speaker 5: got arrested. They're all fine now. Apparently apparently they weren't

2359
02:11:03,320 --> 02:11:06,440
Speaker 5: treated too bad either, which is good to hear. But

2360
02:11:06,520 --> 02:11:10,240
Speaker 5: what ultimately happened is more and more came out and

2361
02:11:10,320 --> 02:11:14,120
Speaker 5: it came revealed that not only would disabled people be affected,

2362
02:11:14,520 --> 02:11:18,640
Speaker 5: but basically every marginalized group for people of course being

2363
02:11:18,760 --> 02:11:21,560
Speaker 5: what we were focusing on given the beat, but this

2364
02:11:21,600 --> 02:11:25,400
Speaker 5: will impact essentially everyone, especially if you're a low income,

2365
02:11:25,520 --> 02:11:29,680
Speaker 5: especially if you are a person of color, you are

2366
02:11:29,880 --> 02:11:33,200
Speaker 5: more likely to be impacted just by virtue of this

2367
02:11:33,320 --> 02:11:39,760
Speaker 5: bill and how sweeping it is. And Republicans implemented a

2368
02:11:40,000 --> 02:11:45,280
Speaker 5: ban for gender ferming care for minors on it. It

2369
02:11:45,320 --> 02:11:48,240
Speaker 5: was a very milktoas ban that at the time was

2370
02:11:48,240 --> 02:11:50,480
Speaker 5: projected to pretty much get overturned in court right away

2371
02:11:50,760 --> 02:11:53,520
Speaker 5: if we were to pass. They didn't stop there though.

2372
02:11:53,760 --> 02:11:55,960
Speaker 5: They quickly evolved it and they tried to implement it

2373
02:11:56,000 --> 02:12:00,600
Speaker 5: into a sweeping ban on gender firming care for all ages, Medicaid,

2374
02:12:00,920 --> 02:12:05,800
Speaker 5: and for any health insurance received through Affordable Care Act marketplaces.

2375
02:12:06,240 --> 02:12:10,560
Speaker 5: And ultimately this led to a lot of panic and

2376
02:12:10,560 --> 02:12:12,200
Speaker 5: a lot of people assuming that their care is going

2377
02:12:12,240 --> 02:12:15,680
Speaker 5: to be taken away immediately. That wasn't what's going to

2378
02:12:15,720 --> 02:12:18,240
Speaker 5: happen on The minimum effective date that's currently in the

2379
02:12:18,280 --> 02:12:21,720
Speaker 5: bill is twenty twenty seven. I'm telling people to prepare

2380
02:12:21,800 --> 02:12:25,080
Speaker 5: if it passes for twenty twenty six, because there's a

2381
02:12:25,120 --> 02:12:27,840
Speaker 5: decent change. Republicans will trying to expedite it because it

2382
02:12:27,880 --> 02:12:30,280
Speaker 5: passed through the House, it passed through committees in the House,

2383
02:12:31,000 --> 02:12:34,120
Speaker 5: it was sent to the Senate, and I think that's

2384
02:12:34,160 --> 02:12:36,000
Speaker 5: what we'll give to Mattie to talk about kind of

2385
02:12:36,040 --> 02:12:38,000
Speaker 5: what next steps for that are.

2386
02:12:38,640 --> 02:12:41,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, so lake Man was saying, there's a lot of

2387
02:12:41,480 --> 02:12:44,280
Speaker 9: really huge This bill is tremendous. They could talk for

2388
02:12:44,360 --> 02:12:47,720
Speaker 9: hours about it. But focusing on the transparts, there's a

2389
02:12:47,760 --> 02:12:51,960
Speaker 9: ban on medicaid funding and there's also a ban on

2390
02:12:52,080 --> 02:12:55,839
Speaker 9: including trans cares and essential Health benefit and ACA plans.

2391
02:12:56,400 --> 02:12:59,640
Speaker 9: And the thing about both of these provisions is that

2392
02:13:00,040 --> 02:13:03,880
Speaker 9: normally with reconciliation bills, they're supposed to be focused on

2393
02:13:04,040 --> 02:13:09,480
Speaker 9: budget items, not policy items. So for example, you couldn't say, hey,

2394
02:13:09,520 --> 02:13:12,080
Speaker 9: weed is legal everywhere now or something like that, or

2395
02:13:12,400 --> 02:13:14,360
Speaker 9: raise the minimum wage, which Democrats tried to do in

2396
02:13:14,360 --> 02:13:17,400
Speaker 9: twenty twenty one and they failed because there are rules

2397
02:13:17,520 --> 02:13:21,120
Speaker 9: regarding how this process works. And so what we argued

2398
02:13:21,160 --> 02:13:24,480
Speaker 9: in an article was that there's a possibility that, you know,

2399
02:13:24,480 --> 02:13:28,320
Speaker 9: if activists and advocates reach out to their senators and

2400
02:13:28,800 --> 02:13:31,640
Speaker 9: advocated to point out that this part of the bill

2401
02:13:31,720 --> 02:13:35,680
Speaker 9: is completely against those provisions, against those procedural rules for

2402
02:13:35,840 --> 02:13:39,240
Speaker 9: the Senate Parliamentaria could rule against it and basically strike

2403
02:13:39,320 --> 02:13:42,120
Speaker 9: that portion of the bill without ever even becoming law.

2404
02:13:42,640 --> 02:13:44,760
Speaker 9: And you know that would stay people a lot of

2405
02:13:44,760 --> 02:13:47,320
Speaker 9: stress and anxiety. And you don't have to worry about

2406
02:13:47,320 --> 02:13:49,840
Speaker 9: the court battles and what happens with Scremetti versus us,

2407
02:13:49,840 --> 02:13:51,480
Speaker 9: which is a Supreme Court case that's going to be

2408
02:13:51,600 --> 02:13:54,480
Speaker 9: ruled on on gender a firming care soon. So what

2409
02:13:54,560 --> 02:13:56,800
Speaker 9: we've been telling people, and you know, including listeners for

2410
02:13:56,880 --> 02:13:59,240
Speaker 9: your show, is that people really need to reach out

2411
02:13:59,280 --> 02:14:02,800
Speaker 9: to their senators every single day, email, call and ask

2412
02:14:02,880 --> 02:14:05,200
Speaker 9: them to vote no on this bill on HR one

2413
02:14:05,440 --> 02:14:10,120
Speaker 9: and specifically mentioned the trans healthcare aspects, and if you want,

2414
02:14:10,160 --> 02:14:13,120
Speaker 9: there's templates online on our website, or you can just

2415
02:14:13,200 --> 02:14:15,640
Speaker 9: you know, ask them, Hey, we don't think this bill

2416
02:14:15,720 --> 02:14:16,000
Speaker 9: is good.

2417
02:14:16,040 --> 02:14:16,360
Speaker 4: We don't.

2418
02:14:16,440 --> 02:14:18,560
Speaker 9: We want you to challenge specifically the parts that are

2419
02:14:18,600 --> 02:14:21,520
Speaker 9: attacking trans people. And I can confirm with you. I

2420
02:14:21,560 --> 02:14:24,040
Speaker 9: can't share too much information, but I can confirm with

2421
02:14:24,080 --> 02:14:27,520
Speaker 9: you that we are making real, legitimate progress on killing

2422
02:14:27,520 --> 02:14:30,880
Speaker 9: this provision. And the more people we have calling in

2423
02:14:30,920 --> 02:14:33,320
Speaker 9: every single day, the better our odds are. But there's

2424
02:14:33,360 --> 02:14:35,480
Speaker 9: still more ways to fight back, and I want Mara

2425
02:14:35,640 --> 02:14:38,080
Speaker 9: to pick up on how people can fight back on

2426
02:14:38,120 --> 02:14:38,520
Speaker 9: the ground.

2427
02:14:38,880 --> 02:14:42,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, So in addition to reaching out to your senators,

2428
02:14:42,280 --> 02:14:45,000
Speaker 5: of course, to that, there's an email template, Mattie wrote

2429
02:14:45,000 --> 02:14:47,440
Speaker 5: of a great one. It tells you everything you need to do.

2430
02:14:47,480 --> 02:14:49,240
Speaker 5: You can even leave a phone call to the script.

2431
02:14:50,200 --> 02:14:53,160
Speaker 5: It takes like five minutes. But more long term is

2432
02:14:53,960 --> 02:14:55,360
Speaker 5: this is not going to be the only attack on

2433
02:14:55,440 --> 02:14:57,960
Speaker 5: gender affirming care. It's not going to stop here. This

2434
02:14:58,120 --> 02:15:02,480
Speaker 5: is just the latest attempt that they're trying to do. Ultimately,

2435
02:15:03,000 --> 02:15:04,880
Speaker 5: we cannot rely on the government to give us a

2436
02:15:04,920 --> 02:15:08,920
Speaker 5: central health care. We cannot rely on the government to

2437
02:15:08,960 --> 02:15:11,920
Speaker 5: protect us and give us what we need, because fundamentally,

2438
02:15:12,120 --> 02:15:14,879
Speaker 5: the government and the laws that it aims to uphold

2439
02:15:15,000 --> 02:15:18,320
Speaker 5: are about protecting the rich, protecting the powerful, protecting the wealthy.

2440
02:15:18,960 --> 02:15:22,680
Speaker 5: The law is functionally something that gives police power to

2441
02:15:23,320 --> 02:15:27,360
Speaker 5: act as essentially an occupying army on the state and

2442
02:15:27,400 --> 02:15:31,200
Speaker 5: to persecute anyone who deviates from what those who are

2443
02:15:31,200 --> 02:15:35,520
Speaker 5: disproportionately rich and powerful decruity. And we need to start

2444
02:15:35,560 --> 02:15:39,120
Speaker 5: focusing on building long term solutions. Everything we can do

2445
02:15:39,280 --> 02:15:42,640
Speaker 5: with legislative activism is important, but ultimately it will not

2446
02:15:42,760 --> 02:15:45,480
Speaker 5: save us, because there will be more attacks down the line,

2447
02:15:45,480 --> 02:15:48,440
Speaker 5: and they'll keep coming, and they only need to win once.

2448
02:15:48,600 --> 02:15:52,160
Speaker 5: We need to win that every time. But there are

2449
02:15:52,280 --> 02:15:55,560
Speaker 5: long term solutions. My beat at this point is essentially

2450
02:15:55,640 --> 02:15:58,880
Speaker 5: just telling everyone to get plugged into your local mutual

2451
02:15:58,920 --> 02:16:02,360
Speaker 5: aid network, get plugged into people doing work on the

2452
02:16:02,360 --> 02:16:06,880
Speaker 5: ground in your state, in your area who are focusing

2453
02:16:07,080 --> 02:16:09,960
Speaker 5: on a plethora of different issues. A bit of a

2454
02:16:09,960 --> 02:16:13,640
Speaker 5: self plug here. But I wrote an article, for instance,

2455
02:16:14,280 --> 02:16:17,480
Speaker 5: last month, where I interviewed a seasoned activist in the

2456
02:16:17,520 --> 02:16:21,000
Speaker 5: Twin Cities who told me just a lot about the

2457
02:16:21,160 --> 02:16:25,920
Speaker 5: history of radical practice in the cities, especially in light

2458
02:16:26,000 --> 02:16:30,080
Speaker 5: of the George Floyd riots and especially in right of

2459
02:16:30,200 --> 02:16:34,480
Speaker 5: corporate pride, rango capitalism whole nine yards recommend reading it.

2460
02:16:34,720 --> 02:16:36,600
Speaker 5: It's on the free radical dot org. Check it out.

2461
02:16:37,000 --> 02:16:40,520
Speaker 5: But beyond of course, my own writing in my own interviews,

2462
02:16:40,560 --> 02:16:44,120
Speaker 5: there are so many people doing work that doesn't get

2463
02:16:44,160 --> 02:16:48,080
Speaker 5: covered because it either isn't pattalable to mainstream news audiences

2464
02:16:48,200 --> 02:16:52,039
Speaker 5: or it isn't seeking coverage for a variety of reasons.

2465
02:16:52,520 --> 02:16:55,440
Speaker 5: In every single major city this I can guarantee there

2466
02:16:55,480 --> 02:16:58,000
Speaker 5: are people doing work most of the time. It's not

2467
02:16:58,040 --> 02:17:01,280
Speaker 5: going to be publicly visible, but they are there. I

2468
02:17:01,440 --> 02:17:05,200
Speaker 5: would recommend that everyone who is not currently plugged in

2469
02:17:05,640 --> 02:17:08,200
Speaker 5: gets started with something that is much more entry level

2470
02:17:08,240 --> 02:17:11,360
Speaker 5: and something that is much more like meant to be

2471
02:17:11,520 --> 02:17:13,880
Speaker 5: kind of for everyone who may not be willing to

2472
02:17:13,879 --> 02:17:18,160
Speaker 5: do more in depth and more treesy type of stuff.

2473
02:17:18,440 --> 02:17:21,360
Speaker 5: Food not bombs is the great thing I recommend for

2474
02:17:21,400 --> 02:17:24,480
Speaker 5: everyone to check out. Not every city has one, most two,

2475
02:17:24,879 --> 02:17:27,560
Speaker 5: every state has one. Beyond that, there are plenty of

2476
02:17:27,560 --> 02:17:30,640
Speaker 5: local mutual aid groups in every single locality, and if

2477
02:17:30,640 --> 02:17:32,920
Speaker 5: there's not one directly by you, there's probably one in

2478
02:17:32,959 --> 02:17:36,840
Speaker 5: your nearest major city. I would specifically recommend I'm a

2479
02:17:36,879 --> 02:17:38,960
Speaker 5: bit biased here, but I would recommend focusing on ones

2480
02:17:39,000 --> 02:17:42,720
Speaker 5: that are decentralized and non hierarchical, ones that don't revolve

2481
02:17:42,760 --> 02:17:46,400
Speaker 5: around centralizing power and placing that power in the hands

2482
02:17:46,440 --> 02:17:48,959
Speaker 5: of people who are either good at smooth talking or

2483
02:17:49,000 --> 02:17:52,560
Speaker 5: who have a lot of money. Ultimately, the way forward

2484
02:17:53,000 --> 02:17:56,000
Speaker 5: for people of all different marginalized groups, not even just

2485
02:17:56,040 --> 02:17:59,560
Speaker 5: trans people you know on document immigrants, blocking additions, people

2486
02:17:59,600 --> 02:18:02,560
Speaker 5: of color, low income people, disable people, and so forth.

2487
02:18:03,000 --> 02:18:06,879
Speaker 5: The way forward is by recognizing that our issues affect

2488
02:18:07,040 --> 02:18:11,800
Speaker 5: all of us. Attacks on trans healthcare are not limited there. Inevitably,

2489
02:18:11,879 --> 02:18:14,600
Speaker 5: let's say they ban trans healthcare overnight, they're going to

2490
02:18:14,600 --> 02:18:16,480
Speaker 5: come for intersex people. Next, They're going to come for

2491
02:18:16,520 --> 02:18:19,160
Speaker 5: gay people. Next, They're going to come for everyone. So

2492
02:18:19,240 --> 02:18:21,760
Speaker 5: I would just say get involved in your local groups

2493
02:18:22,360 --> 02:18:25,160
Speaker 5: and reach out. There are resources out there if you

2494
02:18:25,320 --> 02:18:27,720
Speaker 5: need some, check out the free radical dot org. I

2495
02:18:27,760 --> 02:18:30,280
Speaker 5: recommend a ton of them. Thank you and yees.

2496
02:18:30,840 --> 02:18:35,080
Speaker 9: Our upside for Matti Metticast is m adycast dot com

2497
02:18:35,120 --> 02:18:37,760
Speaker 9: and you can find our templates for contacting your senators there.

2498
02:18:38,440 --> 02:18:41,960
Speaker 9: Thank you so much for helping yourself and helping your community.

2499
02:18:42,640 --> 02:18:44,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for that. I want to

2500
02:18:44,840 --> 02:18:47,240
Speaker 3: close on I want to read the Route, a real

2501
02:18:47,360 --> 02:18:51,720
Speaker 3: line form fucking Davix manifesto from and Or. Remember that

2502
02:18:51,760 --> 02:18:54,200
Speaker 3: the frontier of the rebellion is everywhere, and even the

2503
02:18:54,240 --> 02:18:58,000
Speaker 3: smallest insurrection pushes our line forward. And one of the

2504
02:18:58,320 --> 02:19:00,680
Speaker 3: arguments that going to make sure that is just true

2505
02:19:00,760 --> 02:19:03,360
Speaker 3: is that in order to maintain their holds, these people

2506
02:19:03,520 --> 02:19:08,240
Speaker 3: have to win one hundred battles across one hundred fronts,

2507
02:19:08,240 --> 02:19:09,560
Speaker 3: you know. But this means that there are so many

2508
02:19:09,600 --> 02:19:11,320
Speaker 3: different things that you can do to resist them and

2509
02:19:11,360 --> 02:19:14,279
Speaker 3: to make sure that this fucking budget they're trying to pass,

2510
02:19:14,480 --> 02:19:17,120
Speaker 3: to make sure that everyone in this country suffers, and

2511
02:19:17,160 --> 02:19:19,960
Speaker 3: specifically that trans people cannot use the health insurances that

2512
02:19:20,000 --> 02:19:23,000
Speaker 3: we need, use Medicaid, use Affordable Care Act to pay

2513
02:19:23,000 --> 02:19:25,800
Speaker 3: for stuff. This stuff can be resisted in so many

2514
02:19:25,800 --> 02:19:28,120
Speaker 3: different ways. You can ass We've talked about. You can

2515
02:19:28,120 --> 02:19:30,360
Speaker 3: call your senators, you can yell at them, you can

2516
02:19:30,360 --> 02:19:33,080
Speaker 3: make their lives miserable until they agree to not do this.

2517
02:19:33,720 --> 02:19:36,240
Speaker 3: And then also you can join your local mituway groups,

2518
02:19:36,240 --> 02:19:39,320
Speaker 3: you can join local activist groups. You can start you know,

2519
02:19:39,360 --> 02:19:41,600
Speaker 3: getting a serious or organized. Other ways you can again,

2520
02:19:41,720 --> 02:19:44,360
Speaker 3: like we've talked a lot about unions and the role

2521
02:19:44,360 --> 02:19:46,680
Speaker 3: of unions and trying to struggle on the show. We've

2522
02:19:46,720 --> 02:19:48,760
Speaker 3: talked of God, We've talked about so many things. I'm

2523
02:19:48,760 --> 02:19:50,360
Speaker 3: going to do a one second plug for the episode

2524
02:19:50,400 --> 02:19:52,120
Speaker 3: I wrote last year called you already know how to

2525
02:19:52,240 --> 02:19:56,480
Speaker 3: organize because you do already know how to organize. And Yeah,

2526
02:19:56,760 --> 02:19:58,480
Speaker 3: none of the things that are happening here are inevitable.

2527
02:19:58,520 --> 02:20:00,200
Speaker 3: They can be stopped and there are so many many

2528
02:20:00,200 --> 02:20:02,320
Speaker 3: different ways for you to start stopping them.

2529
02:20:02,720 --> 02:20:07,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're back, and we're talking about Gavin Newsome

2530
02:20:07,320 --> 02:20:12,560
Speaker 2: and particularly the intersection of the governor of California and

2531
02:20:12,800 --> 02:20:17,520
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, which is a lot more shameful than you'd expect.

2532
02:20:17,640 --> 02:20:22,040
Speaker 2: So if you remember a little earlier this year, there

2533
02:20:22,240 --> 02:20:27,720
Speaker 2: was a big brujaha publicly because a California transgender high

2534
02:20:27,760 --> 02:20:32,240
Speaker 2: school athlete won at the woman's eight feet triple jump.

2535
02:20:32,760 --> 02:20:36,920
Speaker 2: This is an eleventh grade transgender athlete from Urupa Valley

2536
02:20:37,080 --> 02:20:40,800
Speaker 2: High School near Riverside, California, and she won the Division

2537
02:20:40,800 --> 02:20:44,160
Speaker 2: three girls long jump and triple jump and placed seventh

2538
02:20:44,200 --> 02:20:47,080
Speaker 2: in the high jump at her Southern Section championship.

2539
02:20:47,560 --> 02:20:48,440
Speaker 7: A few weeks later.

2540
02:20:48,480 --> 02:20:50,560
Speaker 2: There's going to be I don't think it's happened yet,

2541
02:20:50,600 --> 02:20:53,280
Speaker 2: a championship meet that she qualified for as a result

2542
02:20:53,360 --> 02:20:55,840
Speaker 2: of this. And when this happened, it was immediately left

2543
02:20:55,879 --> 02:20:58,680
Speaker 2: on by the Trump administration and by right wing media

2544
02:20:59,200 --> 02:21:01,720
Speaker 2: as evidence of this thing that they've been trying to

2545
02:21:01,720 --> 02:21:04,600
Speaker 2: push for forever, which is that trans athletes are a

2546
02:21:04,680 --> 02:21:09,720
Speaker 2: threat to women's sports. Right now, this is something that

2547
02:21:09,800 --> 02:21:13,240
Speaker 2: number one, there's just not a lot of And this

2548
02:21:13,360 --> 02:21:15,600
Speaker 2: is also something that like I think something like two

2549
02:21:15,640 --> 02:21:19,520
Speaker 2: thirds of Americans when polled say that they don't feel

2550
02:21:19,560 --> 02:21:22,800
Speaker 2: like trans athletes should be competing with you know, quote

2551
02:21:22,879 --> 02:21:26,879
Speaker 2: unquote naturally born women in women's sports. Right, Like, this

2552
02:21:27,000 --> 02:21:29,480
Speaker 2: is a thing that the right has built a lot

2553
02:21:29,520 --> 02:21:32,240
Speaker 2: of support for because they have made this a political

2554
02:21:32,280 --> 02:21:34,960
Speaker 2: issue for so long, and they've been largely successful in

2555
02:21:34,959 --> 02:21:39,160
Speaker 2: that the state of California and California lawmakers have been

2556
02:21:39,200 --> 02:21:43,280
Speaker 2: pushing back against this. There have been state bills in

2557
02:21:43,400 --> 02:21:47,640
Speaker 2: order to allow these girls to continue to compete. But

2558
02:21:47,800 --> 02:21:51,640
Speaker 2: Gavin Newsom has not expressed the same degree of support.

2559
02:21:52,120 --> 02:21:55,720
Speaker 2: And this kind of largely came out earlier this month

2560
02:21:55,920 --> 02:21:59,280
Speaker 2: when he had a meeting with conservative personality Charlie Kirk

2561
02:21:59,400 --> 02:22:03,280
Speaker 2: on his new podcast. As Newsom said, Kirk pushed so

2562
02:22:03,400 --> 02:22:05,640
Speaker 2: hard on the topic that Newsom said he felt like

2563
02:22:05,680 --> 02:22:08,640
Speaker 2: he had to address it. Here's how Newsom characterized it.

2564
02:22:08,680 --> 02:22:10,480
Speaker 2: And then he asked me, tell me that's not fair.

2565
02:22:10,520 --> 02:22:12,320
Speaker 2: And I looked at him. I said, you're right, that's

2566
02:22:12,360 --> 02:22:14,959
Speaker 2: not And so it wasn't some grand design. And I know,

2567
02:22:15,040 --> 02:22:16,920
Speaker 2: I know that hurt a lot of people, but respectively,

2568
02:22:16,959 --> 02:22:19,320
Speaker 2: I just disagree with those on the other side of this.

2569
02:22:20,000 --> 02:22:22,520
Speaker 7: Now, this brought a backlash against Newsom.

2570
02:22:22,600 --> 02:22:26,080
Speaker 2: He was attacked for flip flopping because again, like the

2571
02:22:26,360 --> 02:22:30,520
Speaker 2: California Democratic Party's position on this has been to defend

2572
02:22:30,560 --> 02:22:34,240
Speaker 2: trans athletes, but Newsom kind of flipped as soon as

2573
02:22:34,280 --> 02:22:37,120
Speaker 2: he was in a room with Charlie Kirk. Now, Newsom

2574
02:22:37,160 --> 02:22:39,680
Speaker 2: will argue that he also tried to stick up for

2575
02:22:39,840 --> 02:22:43,119
Speaker 2: trans athletes to Charlie Kirk. To be clear about that,

2576
02:22:43,200 --> 02:22:46,400
Speaker 2: this is exactly what he said to Charlie. Completely fair

2577
02:22:46,480 --> 02:22:49,160
Speaker 2: on the issue of fairness, I completely agree. So that's

2578
02:22:49,200 --> 02:22:51,720
Speaker 2: easy to call out the unfairness of that. There's also

2579
02:22:51,800 --> 02:22:54,320
Speaker 2: a humility and grace that these poor people are more

2580
02:22:54,400 --> 02:22:57,280
Speaker 2: likely to commit suicide, have anxiety and depression, and the

2581
02:22:57,320 --> 02:22:59,400
Speaker 2: way that people talk down to vulnerable communities is an

2582
02:22:59,440 --> 02:23:01,160
Speaker 2: issue that I have a hard time with as well.

2583
02:23:01,400 --> 02:23:03,400
Speaker 2: So both things I can hold in my hand. How

2584
02:23:03,400 --> 02:23:05,680
Speaker 2: can we address this issue with the kind of decency

2585
02:23:05,680 --> 02:23:07,560
Speaker 2: that I think you know is inherent in you but

2586
02:23:07,720 --> 02:23:09,640
Speaker 2: not always expressed in the issue. And first of all,

2587
02:23:09,720 --> 02:23:12,760
Speaker 2: there's no decency inherent in Charlie Kirk. And second yeah,

2588
02:23:12,800 --> 02:23:15,600
Speaker 2: there's also a humility and grace that these poor people

2589
02:23:15,600 --> 02:23:17,120
Speaker 2: are more likely to commit suicide.

2590
02:23:17,160 --> 02:23:17,680
Speaker 7: What does that?

2591
02:23:17,920 --> 02:23:20,600
Speaker 4: What that mean? What does that mean? Gavin, that's not

2592
02:23:20,640 --> 02:23:23,640
Speaker 4: a sentence. Also, like, just like I made my living

2593
02:23:23,760 --> 02:23:26,920
Speaker 4: exercising for most of my twenties, right, Like.

2594
02:23:26,959 --> 02:23:29,160
Speaker 7: You're a professional athletes done sports?

2595
02:23:29,480 --> 02:23:32,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like and then I've done all kinds of ether

2596
02:23:32,280 --> 02:23:34,080
Speaker 4: shit where I still got paid to race my bike,

2597
02:23:34,160 --> 02:23:38,080
Speaker 4: right Like, Yeah, sports are unfair. It fucking sucks. I

2598
02:23:38,200 --> 02:23:42,680
Speaker 4: coached people who worked way harder than me. They trained

2599
02:23:43,000 --> 02:23:47,840
Speaker 4: super hard, they slept well, they ate better. Unfortunately, for

2600
02:23:47,920 --> 02:23:52,200
Speaker 4: whatever reason, they were not able to get to the

2601
02:23:52,240 --> 02:23:56,199
Speaker 4: same level. That sucks. But like, sport is inherently unfair.

2602
02:23:56,240 --> 02:23:59,120
Speaker 4: The idea that like the only difference is like this,

2603
02:23:59,600 --> 02:24:03,800
Speaker 4: like you so x y chromosoonality is nonsense. Like, especially

2604
02:24:03,840 --> 02:24:06,800
Speaker 4: in high school sports, kids will develop at different times.

2605
02:24:06,840 --> 02:24:09,039
Speaker 4: That is unfair. Some kids will excel and then other

2606
02:24:09,080 --> 02:24:12,119
Speaker 4: kids will get better. The function of high school sports

2607
02:24:12,200 --> 02:24:15,119
Speaker 4: is not to find who can go like higher, faster, stronger.

2608
02:24:15,440 --> 02:24:18,199
Speaker 4: It's to teach people to play nicely with one another

2609
02:24:18,280 --> 02:24:24,120
Speaker 4: and to communicate inclusion and excluding trans kids is completely

2610
02:24:24,200 --> 02:24:25,280
Speaker 4: contrary to that.

2611
02:24:25,879 --> 02:24:29,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's like, yeah, I think that's a great point, James,

2612
02:24:30,000 --> 02:24:32,280
Speaker 2: is that, like number one, this is all being entirely

2613
02:24:32,320 --> 02:24:35,520
Speaker 2: made about like who places how which is always going

2614
02:24:35,560 --> 02:24:39,120
Speaker 2: to be based largely on things that like people can't control,

2615
02:24:39,200 --> 02:24:43,200
Speaker 2: because like people's bodies are different, you know.

2616
02:24:43,640 --> 02:24:46,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they developed differently. Like there are people who

2617
02:24:46,120 --> 02:24:47,760
Speaker 4: I beat a by graces when I was a kid

2618
02:24:47,760 --> 02:24:49,960
Speaker 4: who have one stages at the Tour de France. Yeah,

2619
02:24:50,040 --> 02:24:53,000
Speaker 4: Like if our bodies developed differently, that's completely normal.

2620
02:24:53,200 --> 02:24:54,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it's this again.

2621
02:24:54,520 --> 02:24:57,039
Speaker 2: The thing that should matter here is not treating a

2622
02:24:57,080 --> 02:24:59,680
Speaker 2: community of people hatefully, which is the entirety of the

2623
02:24:59,720 --> 02:25:01,720
Speaker 2: reason the right has made this an issue. It has

2624
02:25:01,800 --> 02:25:03,720
Speaker 2: nothing to do with fairness, It has nothing to do

2625
02:25:03,760 --> 02:25:06,400
Speaker 2: with sports. It's entirely about hurting a group of people.

2626
02:25:06,600 --> 02:25:09,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, if these people gave a single shit about women's sports,

2627
02:25:09,200 --> 02:25:11,039
Speaker 4: said it being there when women weren't getting paid the

2628
02:25:11,040 --> 02:25:12,400
Speaker 4: same Did it been there when they didn't get the

2629
02:25:12,400 --> 02:25:14,280
Speaker 4: same TV covery? Did it there when they didn't get

2630
02:25:14,320 --> 02:25:15,040
Speaker 4: the same price money?

2631
02:25:15,120 --> 02:25:17,440
Speaker 2: And they were mostly making fun of women's sports at

2632
02:25:17,440 --> 02:25:20,320
Speaker 2: that point in time. Now, I do think one thing

2633
02:25:20,360 --> 02:25:23,199
Speaker 2: that's funny here is that when Newsom was when people

2634
02:25:23,240 --> 02:25:27,200
Speaker 2: asked rightly, like when Californian legislators were pushing to protect

2635
02:25:27,280 --> 02:25:29,879
Speaker 2: trans athletes, why didn't you bring up that you felt

2636
02:25:29,879 --> 02:25:32,959
Speaker 2: this way, and his answer was, I didn't have a podcast.

2637
02:25:33,120 --> 02:25:34,720
Speaker 7: I wasn't having that conversation.

2638
02:25:35,080 --> 02:25:36,920
Speaker 2: I was out there on the campaign trail and the

2639
02:25:36,920 --> 02:25:38,920
Speaker 2: big blue bubble, on the big blue bus and the

2640
02:25:38,920 --> 02:25:42,280
Speaker 2: big blue crowds, having big blue conversations. And then he

2641
02:25:42,320 --> 02:25:44,760
Speaker 2: went on to say that basically the backlash to him

2642
02:25:44,800 --> 02:25:47,520
Speaker 2: agreeing with Charlie Kirk on this has convinced him. I

2643
02:25:47,520 --> 02:25:50,280
Speaker 2: always thought the right overstated how judgmental my party was,

2644
02:25:50,280 --> 02:25:51,959
Speaker 2: and I'll be candid with you, I have a deeper

2645
02:25:52,040 --> 02:25:55,359
Speaker 2: understanding now of that critique than I ever ever ever understood.

2646
02:25:55,920 --> 02:25:58,080
Speaker 2: It's like, now that people are angry at me, I

2647
02:25:58,120 --> 02:26:01,199
Speaker 2: believe there's a problem with my part being judgmental.

2648
02:26:01,760 --> 02:26:04,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, now that I've faced a consequence of my shit,

2649
02:26:04,200 --> 02:26:05,560
Speaker 4: I hate trans people even more.

2650
02:26:05,720 --> 02:26:06,400
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2651
02:26:06,480 --> 02:26:09,600
Speaker 12: It must be so hard to be Gavin Newsome. It's

2652
02:26:09,640 --> 02:26:13,039
Speaker 12: gotta be tough and betray your constituents to get the

2653
02:26:13,120 --> 02:26:19,560
Speaker 12: approval of a millennial right wing podcaster who goes around.

2654
02:26:19,240 --> 02:26:21,320
Speaker 4: Who still hates you, touring.

2655
02:26:21,040 --> 02:26:24,440
Speaker 12: College campuses to debate seventeen year olds. That must be

2656
02:26:24,480 --> 02:26:25,240
Speaker 12: so hard for you.

2657
02:26:25,440 --> 02:26:27,400
Speaker 7: It's gotta be tough. Gotta be tough, Gavin.

2658
02:26:27,520 --> 02:26:30,880
Speaker 4: He did say in his podcast. His kid likes Charlie Kirk,

2659
02:26:30,920 --> 02:26:33,520
Speaker 4: not surprisingly. Maybe this is all just a ploy to

2660
02:26:33,520 --> 02:26:34,280
Speaker 4: be a cool dad.

2661
02:26:34,360 --> 02:26:36,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm not surprised he sucks at being a dad.

2662
02:26:37,000 --> 02:26:40,119
Speaker 4: Gavin usedomings, you wants to be a cool dad empty,

2663
02:26:40,320 --> 02:26:41,320
Speaker 4: It's embarrassing.

2664
02:26:41,440 --> 02:26:44,520
Speaker 12: Reminds me that Jake Dapper just said his kid's not

2665
02:26:44,560 --> 02:26:47,680
Speaker 12: really into politics. He's just into World War two and gaming.

2666
02:26:48,640 --> 02:26:51,320
Speaker 7: Great part of World War Two.

2667
02:26:51,560 --> 02:26:56,080
Speaker 4: Tapurious, curious many such cases. Doesn't his kid want to

2668
02:26:56,080 --> 02:26:57,440
Speaker 4: be a cop? Is that Jake Tapper?

2669
02:26:57,560 --> 02:27:00,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, that makes sense. That sounds like Jake fucking Taper's kid.

2670
02:27:01,000 --> 02:27:01,480
Speaker 3: So look.

2671
02:27:01,680 --> 02:27:05,360
Speaker 2: Earlier this week, on Tuesday, President Trump shared a truth

2672
02:27:05,440 --> 02:27:10,280
Speaker 2: social post, a truth threatening to yesa he retruthed a

2673
02:27:10,360 --> 02:27:14,080
Speaker 2: post threatening to withhold federal funding from California over the

2674
02:27:14,080 --> 02:27:18,280
Speaker 2: participation of this high school trans athlete in the upcoming

2675
02:27:18,720 --> 02:27:23,640
Speaker 2: California Interscholastic Federation State Track and Field championships. Right, and

2676
02:27:23,720 --> 02:27:26,520
Speaker 2: he said that, under the leadership of radical left Democrat

2677
02:27:26,560 --> 02:27:30,440
Speaker 2: Gavin Nuskum, California continues to illegally allow men to play

2678
02:27:30,440 --> 02:27:34,320
Speaker 2: in women's sports. The governor himself said it is unfair.

2679
02:27:34,760 --> 02:27:38,200
Speaker 2: Trump wrote, first off, the fact that Gavin agreed with

2680
02:27:38,320 --> 02:27:41,800
Speaker 2: Charlie INA's podcast did nothing to change the rhetoric around him.

2681
02:27:41,840 --> 02:27:44,480
Speaker 2: He's still radical left Democrat Gavin newscom because you can't

2682
02:27:44,480 --> 02:27:47,280
Speaker 2: make these people unhappy because it's not about fairness, it's

2683
02:27:47,280 --> 02:27:48,320
Speaker 2: about hurting people.

2684
02:27:48,520 --> 02:27:51,879
Speaker 12: Right, you can fight this. The governor of Maine has been.

2685
02:27:51,879 --> 02:27:53,039
Speaker 7: I wanted to talk about Maine.

2686
02:27:53,120 --> 02:27:56,400
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, So Trump made this same threat to the

2687
02:27:56,440 --> 02:27:59,480
Speaker 2: state of Maine when the governor of Maine refused to

2688
02:27:59,640 --> 02:28:03,600
Speaker 2: stop allowing trans people to compete in women's sports, and

2689
02:28:03,800 --> 02:28:07,119
Speaker 2: the administration attempted to freeze funds intended for a main

2690
02:28:07,320 --> 02:28:09,360
Speaker 2: child nutrition program.

2691
02:28:09,400 --> 02:28:12,039
Speaker 12: No more food for your kids because woa, no more.

2692
02:28:11,920 --> 02:28:13,960
Speaker 7: Food for poor kids because woke.

2693
02:28:14,560 --> 02:28:17,200
Speaker 2: And in response, the governor made was like, all right,

2694
02:28:17,280 --> 02:28:19,560
Speaker 2: let's fucking go to the mat. And they filed a

2695
02:28:19,640 --> 02:28:23,960
Speaker 2: lawsuit against the US Department of Agriculture, and the Trump

2696
02:28:23,959 --> 02:28:28,039
Speaker 2: administration settled like they they backed down. They agreed to

2697
02:28:28,080 --> 02:28:32,480
Speaker 2: stop freezing the funds if Maine dropped the lawsuit, right like,

2698
02:28:32,879 --> 02:28:36,560
Speaker 2: as soon as Maine sued, Trump backed down, right, And

2699
02:28:36,720 --> 02:28:40,279
Speaker 2: rather than attempting to do that, even though there's ample

2700
02:28:40,320 --> 02:28:43,000
Speaker 2: evidence that the administration backs down and to be fair

2701
02:28:43,160 --> 02:28:46,240
Speaker 2: and I think against Maine. California's got a lot more

2702
02:28:46,320 --> 02:28:49,760
Speaker 2: weight to throw around. Yeah, it's the fifth blackist economy

2703
02:28:49,800 --> 02:28:52,720
Speaker 2: on the planet. They have some they have some fucking

2704
02:28:52,840 --> 02:28:56,520
Speaker 2: heck behind them, and like News clearly has.

2705
02:28:56,400 --> 02:28:58,840
Speaker 4: No moral principle other than advancing his own career and

2706
02:28:58,959 --> 02:29:01,640
Speaker 4: personal power and wealth right now. But like, even if

2707
02:29:01,640 --> 02:29:04,920
Speaker 4: that is the case, it's so easy to be like, yeah,

2708
02:29:04,920 --> 02:29:06,880
Speaker 4: I'll fight him on this, I'll fight for the trans

2709
02:29:07,000 --> 02:29:09,119
Speaker 4: kids and get some like resist a points.

2710
02:29:09,520 --> 02:29:12,000
Speaker 2: But he's just too much of a fucking cow. The

2711
02:29:12,080 --> 02:29:15,039
Speaker 2: first rule of fighting these people is don't give them anything.

2712
02:29:15,240 --> 02:29:18,840
Speaker 2: Don't treat them like people. They're monsters, their scum. You

2713
02:29:18,920 --> 02:29:22,000
Speaker 2: fight them every step of the way, right, Like, it

2714
02:29:22,040 --> 02:29:24,800
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what you feel about the issue. You never

2715
02:29:25,000 --> 02:29:27,720
Speaker 2: give pieces a shit like this a win. Yeah right,

2716
02:29:27,800 --> 02:29:29,840
Speaker 2: that's just not the way you fight them.

2717
02:29:30,000 --> 02:29:31,760
Speaker 12: This is the problem with people like Evin who just

2718
02:29:31,840 --> 02:29:34,320
Speaker 12: whose entire politics is just chasing the zeitgeist.

2719
02:29:34,520 --> 02:29:34,800
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2720
02:29:34,840 --> 02:29:36,880
Speaker 12: So then when you interpret the zeitgeist as like swinging

2721
02:29:36,920 --> 02:29:42,959
Speaker 12: against your previously held progressive DEI woke LGBTQ plus values, yeah,

2722
02:29:43,040 --> 02:29:44,720
Speaker 12: then you just go along with that swing and you

2723
02:29:44,920 --> 02:29:47,119
Speaker 12: actually don't even care about getting this getting this points

2724
02:29:47,120 --> 02:29:49,000
Speaker 12: anymore because you think the culture is going in a

2725
02:29:49,000 --> 02:29:51,000
Speaker 12: different direction. Sure, and all you care about is being

2726
02:29:51,000 --> 02:29:53,480
Speaker 12: in the cultural zeitgeist. Yeah, you don't actually stand for anything,

2727
02:29:53,520 --> 02:29:54,920
Speaker 12: like you're just you're's nothing.

2728
02:29:55,040 --> 02:29:56,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and everyone can see that.

2729
02:29:56,560 --> 02:29:59,760
Speaker 2: As opposed to understanding. What Governor Frey of Man understands

2730
02:29:59,840 --> 02:30:01,920
Speaker 2: was that no, you stand there. You accept that the

2731
02:30:01,959 --> 02:30:04,959
Speaker 2: zeitgeist is a screen door and it's going to bounce

2732
02:30:05,080 --> 02:30:08,320
Speaker 2: off of you and back in enough for another direction

2733
02:30:08,800 --> 02:30:12,160
Speaker 2: if you stand for something, right, Gavin decided not to

2734
02:30:12,200 --> 02:30:15,720
Speaker 2: stand for something, and immediately after Trump made that tweet

2735
02:30:15,800 --> 02:30:19,720
Speaker 2: threatening to withhold funds from the state of California, and

2736
02:30:20,160 --> 02:30:23,200
Speaker 2: you know, the Department of Education has opened title for

2737
02:30:23,440 --> 02:30:28,359
Speaker 2: investigations in two leagues that have allowed trans athletes, including CIF,

2738
02:30:28,400 --> 02:30:31,560
Speaker 2: which is California's high school governing a sports governing body.

2739
02:30:31,879 --> 02:30:35,800
Speaker 2: Right after Trump made this most recent truth, the CIF

2740
02:30:35,920 --> 02:30:38,440
Speaker 2: released a statement saying that it had made the decision

2741
02:30:38,480 --> 02:30:41,680
Speaker 2: to pilot an entry process for the championship that's coming

2742
02:30:41,760 --> 02:30:45,160
Speaker 2: up that will alter the way they hand out awards.

2743
02:30:45,760 --> 02:30:50,040
Speaker 2: It will expand qualification opportunities for biological female student athletes.

2744
02:30:50,600 --> 02:30:52,840
Speaker 2: Is the exact way that they have phrased this, and

2745
02:30:52,920 --> 02:30:55,959
Speaker 2: basically what they're going to be doing is giving an

2746
02:30:55,959 --> 02:31:01,360
Speaker 2: award for biological men, biological women, and then competitors, right,

2747
02:31:01,520 --> 02:31:04,280
Speaker 2: so there will be like three long jump awards.

2748
02:31:04,640 --> 02:31:07,119
Speaker 12: It's like a segregated scoring field.

2749
02:31:08,000 --> 02:31:11,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's some. I guess you could say it's

2750
02:31:11,360 --> 02:31:14,279
Speaker 2: not as awful as trying to ban people. But also

2751
02:31:14,480 --> 02:31:17,760
Speaker 2: it's kind of like you're not even taking any kind

2752
02:31:17,760 --> 02:31:18,560
Speaker 2: of stance here.

2753
02:31:19,600 --> 02:31:21,119
Speaker 4: It's not it's just it's nothing.

2754
02:31:21,200 --> 02:31:21,760
Speaker 7: It's nothing.

2755
02:31:22,320 --> 02:31:22,560
Speaker 5: Now.

2756
02:31:23,040 --> 02:31:26,360
Speaker 2: Newsome spokesperson is a garden, says cif proposed pilot is

2757
02:31:26,360 --> 02:31:29,160
Speaker 2: a reasonable, respectful way to navigate a complex issue without

2758
02:31:29,200 --> 02:31:33,359
Speaker 2: compromising competitive fairness. That governor is encouraged by this thoughtful approach.

2759
02:31:33,920 --> 02:31:37,000
Speaker 2: And I should note here this has done nothing to

2760
02:31:37,280 --> 02:31:42,920
Speaker 2: actually calm the right or get conservatives to back down right.

2761
02:31:42,760 --> 02:31:44,920
Speaker 12: Now, because they don't want trans kids competing at all.

2762
02:31:45,120 --> 02:31:46,840
Speaker 12: They don't want trans kids in public life.

2763
02:31:46,879 --> 02:31:48,320
Speaker 4: They don't wants existing.

2764
02:31:48,480 --> 02:31:52,840
Speaker 2: Yes, and so like the conservative Californians are still angry.

2765
02:31:52,920 --> 02:31:55,240
Speaker 12: You can't take them for their word for it. Yeah,

2766
02:31:55,320 --> 02:31:57,920
Speaker 12: they don't care about fairness in sports. This is all

2767
02:31:57,959 --> 02:32:02,039
Speaker 12: about just eradicating transgenderism from public life. Like as as

2768
02:32:02,080 --> 02:32:04,360
Speaker 12: Michael Knowles said at Sea Pack like two years ago,

2769
02:32:04,440 --> 02:32:06,199
Speaker 12: like that's yeah, what they actually care about.

2770
02:32:06,560 --> 02:32:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's you know, there's been a bunch of

2771
02:32:08,320 --> 02:32:13,000
Speaker 2: statements some some Democrats and the legislative LGBTQ cock because

2772
02:32:13,000 --> 02:32:15,200
Speaker 2: it have been like well, Gavin's you know, otherwise been

2773
02:32:15,240 --> 02:32:18,640
Speaker 2: a good ally, you know for LGBTQ people. And I

2774
02:32:18,640 --> 02:32:21,320
Speaker 2: don't agree with this is something that an Assembly member

2775
02:32:21,400 --> 02:32:24,760
Speaker 2: Chris Ward said basically, I don't agree with this particular move,

2776
02:32:24,879 --> 02:32:27,480
Speaker 2: but he's been a good ally for a long time.

2777
02:32:27,680 --> 02:32:29,440
Speaker 3: Has he though? Has he though?

2778
02:32:30,040 --> 02:32:30,400
Speaker 7: Yeah?

2779
02:32:30,720 --> 02:32:33,680
Speaker 4: I mean when it's convenient to him, I guess I prefer.

2780
02:32:33,800 --> 02:32:37,200
Speaker 2: Caucus member Alex Lee said that Newsom was quote just

2781
02:32:37,280 --> 02:32:39,720
Speaker 2: commenting on how he personally feels. He mentioned it on

2782
02:32:39,800 --> 02:32:42,200
Speaker 2: his dumb podcast. He never intended it to be a

2783
02:32:42,200 --> 02:32:46,400
Speaker 2: policy direction. Announced, Hell yeah, that's a dumb podcast.

2784
02:32:47,400 --> 02:32:50,039
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, I mean you should be concerned that he

2785
02:32:50,080 --> 02:32:51,760
Speaker 4: has a dumb pot cost what he deemed it. I

2786
02:32:51,840 --> 02:32:55,440
Speaker 4: just trans people like, yeah, he signed vetos all the time.

2787
02:32:55,600 --> 02:32:58,520
Speaker 2: Like again, I found a k Cira add An article

2788
02:32:58,560 --> 02:33:01,440
Speaker 2: on this that quotes Republican's leew Woman Kate Sanchez, who

2789
02:33:01,480 --> 02:33:04,680
Speaker 2: wrote a bill that would have banned transathletes from competing

2790
02:33:04,720 --> 02:33:07,440
Speaker 2: in girls high school sports earlier this year. This is

2791
02:33:07,440 --> 02:33:10,760
Speaker 2: what she said about cif's rule chains pilot policy. It's

2792
02:33:10,760 --> 02:33:13,240
Speaker 2: incredibly weak. We're angry, We're pissed at this. How every

2793
02:33:13,320 --> 02:33:15,480
Speaker 2: day that goes by, no one is protecting our girls.

2794
02:33:15,520 --> 02:33:18,119
Speaker 2: This is inexcusable. We need to have something done. Governor

2795
02:33:18,200 --> 02:33:20,400
Speaker 2: Newson needs to pick aside, do something, do the right thing.

2796
02:33:20,440 --> 02:33:23,240
Speaker 2: So again, this gets you nothing with them, right, It

2797
02:33:23,360 --> 02:33:25,920
Speaker 2: benefits you not at all. There's another quote I want

2798
02:33:25,920 --> 02:33:28,600
Speaker 2: to read here from State Senator Scott Weiner, who is

2799
02:33:28,600 --> 02:33:30,480
Speaker 2: the leader of the Senate Budget Committee and again a

2800
02:33:30,520 --> 02:33:34,560
Speaker 2: member of the LGBTQ rights Caucus. Trump is now targeting California,

2801
02:33:34,640 --> 02:33:37,000
Speaker 2: just like he targeted Maine. Threatening to withhold federal funds

2802
02:33:37,000 --> 02:33:40,240
Speaker 2: of California doesn't follow as illegal edicts targeting transgender people.

2803
02:33:40,520 --> 02:33:43,400
Speaker 2: California law protects trans people. That won't change Main one

2804
02:33:43,440 --> 02:33:45,720
Speaker 2: in court, So will California. There's only one answer to

2805
02:33:45,760 --> 02:33:48,880
Speaker 2: a bully. No, And as Main Governor Janet Mills said,

2806
02:33:48,920 --> 02:33:51,720
Speaker 2: see you in court. Sorry I got I don't know

2807
02:33:51,760 --> 02:33:54,080
Speaker 2: why I said Governor Fray earlier, but anyway, the point

2808
02:33:54,160 --> 02:33:58,600
Speaker 2: here is that you have Californian legislators saying the right thing,

2809
02:33:58,760 --> 02:34:01,840
Speaker 2: and then you have fucking Newsome being like, no, no, no,

2810
02:34:01,920 --> 02:34:04,640
Speaker 2: actually we're totally going to cave and in a way

2811
02:34:04,680 --> 02:34:08,080
Speaker 2: that won't even make the Republicans happy. It's just frustrating

2812
02:34:08,080 --> 02:34:10,880
Speaker 2: to me that you do have Democrats trying to do

2813
02:34:10,959 --> 02:34:14,640
Speaker 2: the right thing here in California politics and Newsom absolutely

2814
02:34:14,680 --> 02:34:17,200
Speaker 2: having CIF do a run around on them out of

2815
02:34:17,240 --> 02:34:20,240
Speaker 2: pure cowardice. Anyway, that's what I got.

2816
02:34:20,480 --> 02:34:21,480
Speaker 12: Get him out of there.

2817
02:34:21,440 --> 02:34:23,240
Speaker 7: Get him out of there. Fuck Kevin Newsom.

2818
02:34:23,520 --> 02:34:26,120
Speaker 4: We tried to. That was a recall, but it was

2819
02:34:26,200 --> 02:34:27,320
Speaker 4: not for the right reasons.

2820
02:34:27,560 --> 02:34:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, the last time we recalled a California governor, it

2821
02:34:30,160 --> 02:34:31,199
Speaker 2: was a real mixed bag.

2822
02:34:31,640 --> 02:34:34,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, speaking of a mixed bag, that's right.

2823
02:34:46,680 --> 02:34:47,440
Speaker 7: And we're back.

2824
02:34:47,520 --> 02:34:48,680
Speaker 12: Okay, we're back.

2825
02:34:49,000 --> 02:34:49,520
Speaker 4: We're back.

2826
02:34:50,080 --> 02:34:51,560
Speaker 12: James don want to finish us up here.

2827
02:34:52,200 --> 02:34:54,640
Speaker 4: I do, Garrison, I would like that very much. I

2828
02:34:54,640 --> 02:34:56,280
Speaker 4: want to talk about a couple of things. I'm going

2829
02:34:56,320 --> 02:34:57,840
Speaker 4: to try and keep this faster now it's already been

2830
02:34:57,879 --> 02:35:01,840
Speaker 4: a long episode. Let's start with agents have been arresting

2831
02:35:01,920 --> 02:35:05,879
Speaker 4: people in immigration court around the country and placing them

2832
02:35:05,879 --> 02:35:08,560
Speaker 4: at expedited remove all proceedings. If you want to know

2833
02:35:08,680 --> 02:35:11,560
Speaker 4: more about exactly what they exploited remove all proceedings are

2834
02:35:11,640 --> 02:35:14,040
Speaker 4: and how they work, you can go back to our

2835
02:35:14,080 --> 02:35:17,320
Speaker 4: episode which will have aired the day before you hear this,

2836
02:35:17,800 --> 02:35:19,680
Speaker 4: and that would explain and I talked to an immigration

2837
02:35:19,760 --> 02:35:21,680
Speaker 4: attorney there and explain a little bit more about how

2838
02:35:21,720 --> 02:35:25,959
Speaker 4: that works. This includes people whose cases were not dismissed.

2839
02:35:26,000 --> 02:35:28,480
Speaker 4: So previously, it was reported that ICE was dismissing cases

2840
02:35:28,520 --> 02:35:30,800
Speaker 4: of people who had arrived less than two years ago

2841
02:35:31,200 --> 02:35:34,560
Speaker 4: and placing them under two forty explanited remove all proceedings.

2842
02:35:35,160 --> 02:35:38,040
Speaker 4: Apparently they are also detaining other people. I am not

2843
02:35:38,080 --> 02:35:41,560
Speaker 4: sure how that works. I have not seen any justifications

2844
02:35:41,560 --> 02:35:44,680
Speaker 4: for this to give me an explanation for it. I'm

2845
02:35:44,800 --> 02:35:48,520
Speaker 4: not sure how much that matters anymore. These people are

2846
02:35:48,520 --> 02:35:51,480
Speaker 4: going to have to fight their removal from detention, which

2847
02:35:51,520 --> 02:35:54,480
Speaker 4: is obviously going to be a pretty unpleasant experience.

2848
02:35:54,560 --> 02:35:54,680
Speaker 7: Right.

2849
02:35:54,760 --> 02:35:58,200
Speaker 4: Detention in these in these cour civic or geogroup facilities

2850
02:35:58,720 --> 02:36:02,359
Speaker 4: is pretty bad. I'm aware of cases where I misidentified

2851
02:36:02,360 --> 02:36:06,240
Speaker 4: the person being detained cuff the wrong person. And I'm

2852
02:36:06,680 --> 02:36:10,119
Speaker 4: aware that there are Spectrum services who are an ICE

2853
02:36:10,160 --> 02:36:15,279
Speaker 4: detention officer provider officers, at least outside some of these facilities.

2854
02:36:15,320 --> 02:36:18,840
Speaker 4: I believe also inside spectrum services. I've noticed been posting

2855
02:36:18,879 --> 02:36:21,480
Speaker 4: a lot of job adverts recently. This is something I

2856
02:36:21,640 --> 02:36:24,680
Speaker 4: sometimes keep an eye on, right, Like right before the

2857
02:36:24,720 --> 02:36:27,400
Speaker 4: end of title forty two, I saw they were advertising

2858
02:36:27,480 --> 02:36:33,680
Speaker 4: for ice contractors to transport detainees. So this is sometimes

2859
02:36:34,320 --> 02:36:36,840
Speaker 4: a sign that bad things are a foot in the

2860
02:36:36,840 --> 02:36:40,000
Speaker 4: immigration world. I'm guessing in this case it's either this

2861
02:36:40,400 --> 02:36:44,520
Speaker 4: or a plan to further expand detention capacity, which also

2862
02:36:44,560 --> 02:36:47,120
Speaker 4: something the Trump administration has been talking about. Right, So

2863
02:36:47,520 --> 02:36:51,080
Speaker 4: they also have these various subjective orders authorizing more budget,

2864
02:36:51,120 --> 02:36:53,039
Speaker 4: and the budget bill or threw thing more budget for

2865
02:36:53,680 --> 02:36:58,440
Speaker 4: detaining migrants. Secondly, the South Sudan case rope we've covered

2866
02:36:58,440 --> 02:37:02,520
Speaker 4: this last week DVD alvs is known. We also covered

2867
02:37:02,520 --> 02:37:05,440
Speaker 4: it earlier in this week. If you go back to

2868
02:37:05,480 --> 02:37:07,959
Speaker 4: our episode which aired on Wednesday, you can hear more

2869
02:37:07,959 --> 02:37:09,959
Speaker 4: about the sort of blow by blow of timeline of

2870
02:37:10,000 --> 02:37:13,800
Speaker 4: that case. In the South Studian case, Trump administration seems

2871
02:37:13,800 --> 02:37:16,200
Speaker 4: to have gone directly to the Supreme Court try and

2872
02:37:16,280 --> 02:37:21,440
Speaker 4: get an emergency stay on the injunction which afforded due

2873
02:37:21,440 --> 02:37:24,400
Speaker 4: process rights to the migrants who are currently detained into Booty.

2874
02:37:25,000 --> 02:37:28,080
Speaker 4: The administration asked for a stay of the court's injunction.

2875
02:37:28,879 --> 02:37:32,680
Speaker 4: The courts injunction had given them ten days to assert

2876
02:37:32,800 --> 02:37:35,800
Speaker 4: their reasonable fear of torture, and then a further fifteen

2877
02:37:35,920 --> 02:37:39,320
Speaker 4: days to ask to reopen their case if the Department

2878
02:37:39,320 --> 02:37:43,040
Speaker 4: of Home Land Security determined that fear not to be credible.

2879
02:37:43,760 --> 02:37:46,200
Speaker 4: Justice Supreme Court Justice Jackson has given the plaintiffs a

2880
02:37:46,240 --> 02:37:51,440
Speaker 4: week to respond to the United States the DOJ's call

2881
02:37:51,520 --> 02:37:54,720
Speaker 4: for a stay right, So, in practices, people will still

2882
02:37:54,760 --> 02:37:58,680
Speaker 4: have that ten days from the injunction to make their

2883
02:37:59,120 --> 02:38:01,720
Speaker 4: claim that they have a fear of torture. Right South

2884
02:38:01,760 --> 02:38:04,519
Speaker 4: Sudan has said that if these people aren't South Sudanese,

2885
02:38:04,760 --> 02:38:07,640
Speaker 4: it will just return them to their country of citizenship.

2886
02:38:08,000 --> 02:38:11,000
Speaker 4: So if the United States can't return them there because

2887
02:38:11,040 --> 02:38:13,600
Speaker 4: they have a fear of torture, it just seems like

2888
02:38:13,720 --> 02:38:16,119
Speaker 4: the whole South Sudan thing is just an end run

2889
02:38:16,440 --> 02:38:19,600
Speaker 4: around the Convention against Torture Right there their obligation not

2890
02:38:19,600 --> 02:38:21,560
Speaker 4: to return people to places where they will be tortured.

2891
02:38:22,600 --> 02:38:27,400
Speaker 4: Talking of returning people to places where they will be tortured. Unfortunately,

2892
02:38:27,879 --> 02:38:32,440
Speaker 4: the Trump administration has deported twenty people to Mianma. This

2893
02:38:32,480 --> 02:38:33,920
Speaker 4: is according to reporting in Mianma.

2894
02:38:34,120 --> 02:38:34,440
Speaker 7: Now.

2895
02:38:34,520 --> 02:38:38,200
Speaker 4: I've also written about it on my page Patreon page.

2896
02:38:38,480 --> 02:38:40,200
Speaker 4: I've linked both of those in the show notes. But

2897
02:38:40,320 --> 02:38:42,160
Speaker 4: it should be noted that meam I now broke the

2898
02:38:42,200 --> 02:38:45,840
Speaker 4: story and it's getting very little coverage in the United States.

2899
02:38:46,680 --> 02:38:50,480
Speaker 4: I can speculate as to why that. You probably don't

2900
02:38:50,520 --> 02:38:53,000
Speaker 4: need to hear me to sort of join the dots there.

2901
02:38:53,560 --> 02:38:56,840
Speaker 4: This is atrocious. Robert and I have both spoken to

2902
02:38:56,920 --> 02:39:02,840
Speaker 4: people with extensive experience of them, and like, when we

2903
02:39:02,879 --> 02:39:04,800
Speaker 4: talk about the worst attention conditions in the world, we

2904
02:39:04,840 --> 02:39:06,560
Speaker 4: get to a point where it doesn't really make any

2905
02:39:06,600 --> 02:39:08,480
Speaker 4: sense for us to say, like a is worse in.

2906
02:39:08,560 --> 02:39:11,280
Speaker 2: Right right, that this is worse than Sednaia or whatever.

2907
02:39:11,320 --> 02:39:14,240
Speaker 2: But it's on like the level which was Assad's torture

2908
02:39:14,280 --> 02:39:15,680
Speaker 2: prison and syria As.

2909
02:39:15,560 --> 02:39:19,560
Speaker 4: Sad's butchery for human beings.

2910
02:39:18,400 --> 02:39:20,240
Speaker 7: Like we're talking about that level.

2911
02:39:20,920 --> 02:39:23,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I mean things that I have heard. People

2912
02:39:23,280 --> 02:39:26,080
Speaker 4: have been electrocuted to death, people are water boarded, people

2913
02:39:26,120 --> 02:39:30,920
Speaker 4: have acid poured in their mouths. Bodies are found without organs,

2914
02:39:32,160 --> 02:39:35,400
Speaker 4: people are beaten to such an extent that their entire

2915
02:39:35,440 --> 02:39:40,119
Speaker 4: bodies are covered with bruises and contusions. Many times people

2916
02:39:40,240 --> 02:39:42,840
Speaker 4: will only know that their family member is detained when

2917
02:39:42,840 --> 02:39:44,640
Speaker 4: they disappear, and then a few days later they get

2918
02:39:44,640 --> 02:39:48,080
Speaker 4: a call telling them to pick up the body. Conditions

2919
02:39:47,680 --> 02:39:53,720
Speaker 4: in Burmese hunted attention facilities are atrocious. These people are

2920
02:39:53,959 --> 02:39:58,560
Speaker 4: currently being held at the on Tarpi Interrogation Center. It

2921
02:39:58,560 --> 02:40:00,720
Speaker 4: appears at seven of the early so this has been

2922
02:40:00,720 --> 02:40:02,920
Speaker 4: happening since March. It appears that some of these people

2923
02:40:03,000 --> 02:40:06,560
Speaker 4: have been released. The rest are being held by SAC

2924
02:40:06,840 --> 02:40:10,920
Speaker 4: that's the Burmese hunter of military intelligence units, who will

2925
02:40:10,920 --> 02:40:15,080
Speaker 4: almost certainly torture them. Me and MA does have a

2926
02:40:15,120 --> 02:40:18,520
Speaker 4: temporary protected status, but I think I've seen a couple

2927
02:40:18,560 --> 02:40:20,240
Speaker 4: of posts about this, so I just want to clarify

2928
02:40:20,560 --> 02:40:23,280
Speaker 4: the TPS doesn't apply to people who entered after the

2929
02:40:23,320 --> 02:40:27,360
Speaker 4: TPS was granted, or to people who have committed certain crimes.

2930
02:40:28,040 --> 02:40:29,879
Speaker 4: We know that at least one of the men they

2931
02:40:30,400 --> 02:40:34,039
Speaker 4: returned had been convicted of a crime. Not all of

2932
02:40:34,040 --> 02:40:36,720
Speaker 4: these crimes are like particularly Henus felonies. Right, you can

2933
02:40:36,760 --> 02:40:39,600
Speaker 4: do a certain number of misdemeanors and also be deported

2934
02:40:39,720 --> 02:40:43,200
Speaker 4: under a TPS. But I'm trying to find out who

2935
02:40:43,240 --> 02:40:46,200
Speaker 4: these people are. I know that you can't download our

2936
02:40:46,200 --> 02:40:49,480
Speaker 4: podcast in Meanma, which is a huge dub for us,

2937
02:40:50,000 --> 02:40:52,600
Speaker 4: But you know, I know a lot of Burmese people

2938
02:40:52,640 --> 02:40:55,119
Speaker 4: do listen, so you know, if you have an particular

2939
02:40:55,120 --> 02:40:57,520
Speaker 4: insight into this, you could reach out to us. We'll

2940
02:40:57,560 --> 02:41:00,480
Speaker 4: drop the email addressing a little bit here. Seem very

2941
02:41:00,560 --> 02:41:02,400
Speaker 4: unlikely that these people were given a chance to make

2942
02:41:02,400 --> 02:41:05,119
Speaker 4: a claim of fear of torture, right, because it would

2943
02:41:05,120 --> 02:41:09,400
Speaker 4: be a very easy claim to make, given every major

2944
02:41:09,520 --> 02:41:12,920
Speaker 4: human rights organization on the planet has documented torture of

2945
02:41:13,000 --> 02:41:16,039
Speaker 4: detainees in Meanma. I was just reading a report this

2946
02:41:16,080 --> 02:41:19,760
Speaker 4: morning about harassment of trans women in prisons in Myanmar.

2947
02:41:20,879 --> 02:41:24,039
Speaker 4: But the same thing goes for CIS folks, for straight folks,

2948
02:41:24,040 --> 02:41:26,080
Speaker 4: for everyone, right, no one, No one comes out of

2949
02:41:26,120 --> 02:41:28,480
Speaker 4: there the same they went in. Yeah, I can't believe

2950
02:41:28,520 --> 02:41:30,520
Speaker 4: that these people were given a chance to claim a

2951
02:41:30,560 --> 02:41:32,600
Speaker 4: credible fear because it would have been such an easy

2952
02:41:32,600 --> 02:41:35,480
Speaker 4: claim to make, yep, and they wouldn't have been returned there.

2953
02:41:35,959 --> 02:41:38,879
Speaker 4: So yeah, I wish this story was getting more reporting.

2954
02:41:38,920 --> 02:41:41,480
Speaker 4: I wish more people in the media in this country

2955
02:41:41,520 --> 02:41:44,320
Speaker 4: cared about me and Ma. But that's a drama. I

2956
02:41:44,400 --> 02:41:46,640
Speaker 4: have been beating for four years now, and I don't

2957
02:41:46,640 --> 02:41:49,680
Speaker 4: think she's going to change anytime soon. So I guess

2958
02:41:49,760 --> 02:41:52,360
Speaker 4: all there is to say is that I really appreciate

2959
02:41:52,400 --> 02:41:54,400
Speaker 4: those of you who do, especially the third of you

2960
02:41:54,480 --> 02:41:57,400
Speaker 4: who listen to the show and take an interest in

2961
02:41:57,840 --> 02:42:00,840
Speaker 4: all things me and Maa. But yeah, if these people

2962
02:42:00,879 --> 02:42:02,760
Speaker 4: have been returned to a country that the US press

2963
02:42:02,800 --> 02:42:04,560
Speaker 4: was more familiar with, there'd be a lot more noise

2964
02:42:04,600 --> 02:42:07,080
Speaker 4: about this. But this is absolutely unconscionable.

2965
02:42:07,160 --> 02:42:07,400
Speaker 13: Yeah.

2966
02:42:07,720 --> 02:42:09,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, these people will be tortured. It would not shock

2967
02:42:10,040 --> 02:42:11,199
Speaker 4: me if some of these people died.

2968
02:42:11,480 --> 02:42:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, this is I mean, there have been cases

2969
02:42:14,040 --> 02:42:16,200
Speaker 2: so far of I think at least seven of the

2970
02:42:16,200 --> 02:42:18,680
Speaker 2: people that have been sent over previously in the last

2971
02:42:18,879 --> 02:42:21,360
Speaker 2: year or so by the US have been released from

2972
02:42:21,400 --> 02:42:24,560
Speaker 2: this prison. So it's not unnecessarily a death sentence, but

2973
02:42:24,600 --> 02:42:27,199
Speaker 2: for a good number of them it will be, right, Yeah,

2974
02:42:27,680 --> 02:42:31,400
Speaker 2: especially since there are also Rohinga people who will be

2975
02:42:31,440 --> 02:42:35,280
Speaker 2: deported in the near future and presumably directly back to

2976
02:42:35,360 --> 02:42:35,960
Speaker 2: the same place.

2977
02:42:36,400 --> 02:42:39,520
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean it's documented that people deported from Thailand

2978
02:42:39,520 --> 02:42:43,000
Speaker 4: are immediately conscripted and yeah sent it to the military. Right,

2979
02:42:43,080 --> 02:42:46,120
Speaker 4: So if they get out of prison, there's a good

2980
02:42:46,200 --> 02:42:49,080
Speaker 4: chance that, especially if they're men, that they will be

2981
02:42:49,959 --> 02:42:52,760
Speaker 4: Women do get conscripted too in Meanmar, but there's a

2982
02:42:52,800 --> 02:42:55,640
Speaker 4: good chance that will happen to They've been conscripting a

2983
02:42:55,640 --> 02:42:58,320
Speaker 4: lot o Hinga people. So yeah, the outcomes of this

2984
02:42:58,400 --> 02:43:01,440
Speaker 4: will be very poor. And uh yeah, the only way

2985
02:43:01,480 --> 02:43:04,720
Speaker 4: torture stops in Burma is when the revolution succeeds and

2986
02:43:04,720 --> 02:43:08,120
Speaker 4: liberates to Britons. Like that, there is no reasoning with

2987
02:43:08,200 --> 02:43:11,840
Speaker 4: the Burmese hunter. Yep, it's about all I got. It's

2988
02:43:11,879 --> 02:43:12,520
Speaker 4: pretty fucked.

2989
02:43:13,000 --> 02:43:13,080
Speaker 5: Like.

2990
02:43:13,640 --> 02:43:20,240
Speaker 2: Speaking of fucked, let's listen to the tariff song riffs

2991
02:43:20,280 --> 02:43:21,440
Speaker 2: this week now fuck it.

2992
02:43:21,560 --> 02:43:23,080
Speaker 4: Well, let's just listen to it and then have the

2993
02:43:23,160 --> 02:43:24,840
Speaker 4: end of the episode just gets a nice song.

2994
02:43:24,959 --> 02:43:26,039
Speaker 7: Let's just listen to it now.

2995
02:43:26,240 --> 02:43:27,680
Speaker 12: We don't have time to listen to it. This is

2996
02:43:27,720 --> 02:43:28,600
Speaker 12: the end of the episode.

2997
02:43:28,640 --> 02:43:32,160
Speaker 2: Wow, Garrison took it away from you complained to them online.

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02:43:32,680 --> 02:43:36,560
Speaker 4: The constant ageist attacks on the Clash have not stopped.

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02:43:37,000 --> 02:43:40,199
Speaker 12: Sorry, fellas, all that money for nothing.

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02:43:41,160 --> 02:43:42,119
Speaker 7: We reported the new.

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02:43:49,520 --> 02:43:52,680
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

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02:43:52,760 --> 02:43:54,640
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

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02:43:55,400 --> 02:43:56,000
Speaker 4: It could happen.

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02:43:56,040 --> 02:43:58,440
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

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02:43:58,480 --> 02:44:02,640
Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonmedia dot com,

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02:44:02,879 --> 02:44:06,000
Speaker 1: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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02:44:06,080 --> 02:44:06,879
Speaker 1: or wherever.

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02:44:06,600 --> 02:44:09,480
Speaker 2: You listen to podcasts can now find sources for it

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02:44:09,520 --> 02:44:11,960
Speaker 2: could happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions.

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02:44:12,320 --> 02:44:13,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.