Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know. You never know what story
Speaker 1: is of things. We simply don't know the answer too.
Speaker 1: Hey there and welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: the podcast um Steve as always joined by Devin, Joe
Speaker 1: and Joe. He got his name right this story, did it?
Speaker 1: We didn't even have to take five takes, Sir Joe.
Speaker 1: Sir Joe, Well, that's actually kind of apropos for the
Speaker 1: story here perfecting. Why what are we going to talk about? Well,
Speaker 1: tonight's story is the theft of the Irish Crown Jewels. Wait,
Speaker 1: the Irish have jewels? They did, They didn't, They don't
Speaker 1: have them anymore. They're they're gone. Somebody's gone, somebody does. Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's just pop right into the story since we
Speaker 1: prefaced it so well. Uh await the ending I did?
Speaker 1: It's the Middle way, The middle did so. The Irish
Speaker 1: Crown Jewels disappeared sometime between the month of June and
Speaker 1: July seven. Wait, I'm sorry, they don't even know when
Speaker 1: they disappeared, not exactly. Yeah, it was a really good theft,
Speaker 1: and you'll find out why it wasn't so obvious right away.
Speaker 1: I think that probably everybody is familiar with the concept
Speaker 1: at this point of royal jewels or crown jewels. You know,
Speaker 1: you see the things that the crown or the cornery,
Speaker 1: coronation ceremony accouterments, you know, gilded staff in precious precious
Speaker 1: metals and precious stones and all of that. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: they're like I said, they brought out for coronations or
Speaker 1: when somebody famous visits. Well, the Irish didn't exactly have
Speaker 1: that at this time. We're talking nine o seven. This
Speaker 1: is when jewels, yeah, well this is this is seven.
Speaker 1: This is when Ireland is actually part of the United Kingdom,
Speaker 1: are part of England, officially part of England. The Irish
Speaker 1: crown jewels are different because they were part of a
Speaker 1: small collection of jewels and ornaments that were used by
Speaker 1: and I love this name, the Most Illustrious Order of St. Patrick.
Speaker 1: That's a pretty awesome name. If you asked me, we
Speaker 1: should change the show name of that. We are now
Speaker 1: the most Illustrious Order of thinking sideways all right, Well,
Speaker 1: the order was what is referred to as a chivalric
Speaker 1: is at the correct pronunciation chivalric organization, which shivalick organizations
Speaker 1: were a thing that originally they were made up of
Speaker 1: knights who and it was in honor. These were guys
Speaker 1: who were honoring knights who had fallen in the Crusades. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. Well, of course the Crusades were in
Speaker 1: the fourteen and fifteen centuries. So as you move forward,
Speaker 1: what actually I think they were before then? Were they well,
Speaker 1: I know they were a long time ago, like happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: as of about the seventeenth century. These orders were actually
Speaker 1: just kind of honorary societies kind of they were set
Speaker 1: up by they were set up by royalty. It was
Speaker 1: kind of a way to say you're my friend, you're
Speaker 1: a really good guy, and I'm going to honor you
Speaker 1: by inducting you into this order. Or if you had
Speaker 1: a lot of hit songs, maybe yeah kind of thing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you know St. Patrick, he he had a lot
Speaker 1: of hits. Greatest Hits album. You gotta pick that up.
Speaker 1: It's it's on Amazon. The the Irish Crown Jewels, which
Speaker 1: were part of the order, where there was really only
Speaker 1: two pieces of the set. Of my people to only
Speaker 1: have two parts of Crown Jewels right now, before we
Speaker 1: get into it, you know what, I had a really
Speaker 1: hard time this whole time. You guys have watched Family Guy, right,
Speaker 1: do you remember when Family Guy did the History of
Speaker 1: Ireland and at one point Ireland was this giant, utopian,
Speaker 1: super scientific civilization beer and then developed whiskey, and suddenly
Speaker 1: they burned and raised the cities and they were no more.
Speaker 1: All I can ever remember. It's I think a Family
Speaker 1: Guy one to write is when they like fly into
Speaker 1: Ireland and the landing strip is really it's just covered
Speaker 1: in beer bottles. They just like crash Land. It's like
Speaker 1: a pit of beer bottles. Yeah, we should clarify. I'm
Speaker 1: definitely super Irish, I think ye, I'd probably have a
Speaker 1: little bit. We mean, this is just the funny, the
Speaker 1: funny that I couldn't help but thinking of as I
Speaker 1: was doing this. But all right, we'll back to the story,
Speaker 1: back to the seriousness of the Order of St John's St. Patrick,
Speaker 1: the Order of St Patrick's the Irish Town jewels that
Speaker 1: were part of it. The two pieces were a eight
Speaker 1: pointed Star of St. Patrick, which was a jeweled star.
Speaker 1: It had it's eight points, It had a shamrock in
Speaker 1: the center that was made out of emeralds, and there
Speaker 1: was a diamond brooch which was called the grand Master's Badge,
Speaker 1: and the badge was made with ruby's emeralds, and at
Speaker 1: the time they called them Brazilian diamonds, which was evidently
Speaker 1: the highest quality, clearest diamond they had available. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's that's what they used. And written in diamonds on
Speaker 1: this badge in Latin it said who will separate us?
Speaker 1: With question mark at the end, But I don't. I
Speaker 1: didn't write down what it is in Latin because I'm
Speaker 1: really bad at Latin. At it. Well, I forgot, I know.
Speaker 1: To give you a kind of an idea of the
Speaker 1: size of these two pieces, the star was about four
Speaker 1: and a quarter inches by four and a quarter inches,
Speaker 1: so it was kind of a square, and the brooch
Speaker 1: was about three inches across by five inches tall. So
Speaker 1: these are like an index card. Yeah there, I mean,
Speaker 1: think of it. It's it's about the size of your hand,
Speaker 1: almost the ballpark. I mean, that's that's a big piece
Speaker 1: of jewelry that you can hold in your hand. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and what they would do is they would pin
Speaker 1: them on the chest. They had silk robes and stuff
Speaker 1: that they would wear. And so the the star was
Speaker 1: worn by one guy and the badge was worn by
Speaker 1: another and it was it was the sign of your office,
Speaker 1: was really what they did, which is just so silly
Speaker 1: because silk just can't hold diamonds like that. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: when you're rich, it doesn't matter because you only use
Speaker 1: it a couple of times and then you get a
Speaker 1: new one. That's true. Yeah, Well, let's get on to
Speaker 1: the theft. The Irish Crown jewels were stolen, and they
Speaker 1: weren't the only thing that were stolen at the time.
Speaker 1: There was also several gold collars for the Order of
Speaker 1: St Patrick Collar. All right, Yeah, this this took me
Speaker 1: a while. A gold collar is basically a giant gold
Speaker 1: chain that would be worn around the neck. If you
Speaker 1: think about some of the it's not really draped around
Speaker 1: the neck and is across the shoulders and across the chest.
Speaker 1: The easiest way I can think of this is if
Speaker 1: you ever look at some of the old paintings of royalty,
Speaker 1: like let's say Henry the eighth, and you'll see he's
Speaker 1: got this big gold thing that comes off his shoulders
Speaker 1: and droops across the front of his chest. That's a caller.
Speaker 1: That's what they called the caller, which basically just giant bling.
Speaker 1: So it's not like an actual like button on collar
Speaker 1: like we wear on collar shirts. No, it actually and
Speaker 1: that took me a while to figure out because they
Speaker 1: kept talking about silk callers that were also stolen, and
Speaker 1: silk collars were kind of the roughly bit with silk
Speaker 1: that it sat a pond. So you put on the
Speaker 1: silk collar, you pull it over your head, and then
Speaker 1: you would pull on the gold collar on top of that.
Speaker 1: So yes, yeah, so it's me. It's pretty, it's fancy.
Speaker 1: It's fanciness, fancy, goldiness, fancy. Uh. Well, the oh, and
Speaker 1: the other thing that was stolen at the same time
Speaker 1: was the personal jewel belongings of the mother of a
Speaker 1: man by the name of Arthur Vickers. Now Vickers is
Speaker 1: going to come up in a story very shortly, but
Speaker 1: I just want to point out that her jewels were
Speaker 1: also stolen because they were stored at the same location.
Speaker 1: I have to point out that when I was reading
Speaker 1: through some of the links for this story, I skimmed
Speaker 1: some of the like kind of backstory on this right,
Speaker 1: so I missed the part that there was a dude
Speaker 1: named Arthur Vickers. So when I was reading through it,
Speaker 1: I just kept thinking, oh, the vicars he thought. He
Speaker 1: was like a vicar, Yeah, And I was like, why
Speaker 1: are they adding an S to the end of like
Speaker 1: the vicar? It makes you feeling better? Yeah, I did
Speaker 1: the same thing, and I've read this thing like five
Speaker 1: times before I finally slowed down enough to realize what
Speaker 1: was going on. Okay, well, here's here's what happens. Here's
Speaker 1: the backstory that I think will help is, according to
Speaker 1: the Statutes of the Order of St Patrick, the jewels,
Speaker 1: along with any other regalia that they might have, was
Speaker 1: to be safely guarded by the Ulster King of Arms.
Speaker 1: So that's the title. The statue also said that the jewels,
Speaker 1: and I'm reading directly here, shall be deposited for safe
Speaker 1: keeping in a steel safe in the chancery of the
Speaker 1: Order of Office of Arms of Ireland. That makes sense.
Speaker 1: Put them in a safe. Put him in a steel
Speaker 1: safe so they're locked up. Put them in a safe
Speaker 1: in an office you know that has access from only
Speaker 1: this one dude, right, correct. Here's the problem is that
Speaker 1: from the year eighteen eighty one to nineteen o three
Speaker 1: the Order had operated out of Dublin Castle and it
Speaker 1: was in a location that was no, that's called Birmingham Tower.
Speaker 1: In nineteen o three though they moved the order from
Speaker 1: that tower to the upper castle Yard into Bedford Tower,
Speaker 1: so they moved locations. Essentially, they changed where they were at.
Speaker 1: And when they moved it required that they had a
Speaker 1: new safe made, because it's safe that they were using,
Speaker 1: I'm guessing was bolted to the floor like you dot to, yeah,
Speaker 1: something to keep it from being picked up and easily moved. Exactly,
Speaker 1: a good idea generally. The problem is is that when
Speaker 1: the new safe was made and delivered, they discovered it
Speaker 1: was too big to get through the door into the
Speaker 1: strong room where it was supposed to be stared. That's
Speaker 1: the hilarious thing too, is like the animals of incompetence,
Speaker 1: that's a custom built this strong room to hold this safe,
Speaker 1: and they made it and they made the door too small.
Speaker 1: And the amazing thing is, you know, I mean it
Speaker 1: must have been a really super strong room because they
Speaker 1: couldn't like widen the doorway. Yeah, partially, it's a It's
Speaker 1: in a tower that is hundreds of years old, so
Speaker 1: you're not just gonna put pulling stones out of the
Speaker 1: doorway to open it up and try and put them
Speaker 1: back in. I know, that just doesn't work. It's just
Speaker 1: a bad idea anyway, So I wound up with in
Speaker 1: a new location. So now we talked about Arthur Vickers.
Speaker 1: He at the time was Ulster King of Arms, and
Speaker 1: he was the guy who was responsible for the safe
Speaker 1: keeping and storage of the Irish Crown jewels along with
Speaker 1: all the other you know reggae yet that they might have,
Speaker 1: and his grandmother's jewels and his his mother in law's
Speaker 1: jewels or his mother's not well, rather than freak out
Speaker 1: and say you need to make me a new safe,
Speaker 1: or you need to fix this, because the guy who
Speaker 1: made the safe was said, oh, well, we can totally
Speaker 1: fix that. I can, I can make new safe. And
Speaker 1: he's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, it's fine.
Speaker 1: Just put that in the library and we'll just use
Speaker 1: it in the library in his office. I got to
Speaker 1: put it in Victor's office. No, it was in the
Speaker 1: library because there was a bunch of other cases of
Speaker 1: stuff that was stored for display and they stuck it
Speaker 1: in the library. What I just feel like was he
Speaker 1: the kind of guy who had his office because he
Speaker 1: was related to somebody. Well, he got the office I
Speaker 1: think he was given the office in nineteen o two
Speaker 1: or nineteen o three, and he was given the office
Speaker 1: by the king. He did something to impress the king
Speaker 1: to be elevated to the Ulster King of Arms by
Speaker 1: the King of England at the time. Interesting particularly, I
Speaker 1: was wondered exactly what what he did. It doesn't say.
Speaker 1: I never could find exactly what he did to get
Speaker 1: this honor to be elevated to this level. But he
Speaker 1: just said, oh, yeah, no, it's fine, just put it there,
Speaker 1: no big deal. Let's move forward. That was three. We're
Speaker 1: going to move forward to nineteen o seven. On June
Speaker 1: eleven of nineteen o seven, it's confirmed there's accounts that
Speaker 1: the jewels were removed from the safe and they were
Speaker 1: shown to a man by the name of John Hodgson.
Speaker 1: He was the librarian of the Duke of Northumberland. Not
Speaker 1: John Hodgman. No Hodgson, did I say Hodgman. I just
Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that it wasn't famed millionaire, deranged
Speaker 1: millionaire John Hodgeman. No, No, it was not him. He'd
Speaker 1: be crazy old at that point anyway. Correct. On July
Speaker 1: three of nineteen o seven, the cleaning lady showed up
Speaker 1: for work and she found the front door unlocked. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't totally tell. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: found out if this was it was that the library door,
Speaker 1: was that the safe door? Was it the front door
Speaker 1: to the whole building front understanding? I think it was
Speaker 1: the front door of the building, but I could never
Speaker 1: confirm exactly what the quote unquote front door was. It
Speaker 1: was always a cleaning lady finding this stuff. That lady
Speaker 1: had to find everything. Ye seven days later, I mean
Speaker 1: after after this, she this guver was the strong room
Speaker 1: doors has been left. Well, yeah, you're jumping ahead on
Speaker 1: me a little bit, but you're right. But then, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: she's always finding stuff that's unlocked and open. Three days
Speaker 1: later she finds again, this is July six, she finds
Speaker 1: the door to the strong room is open. But you know, nobody,
Speaker 1: nobody's worried about it, Nobody thought anything on it, No
Speaker 1: big deal. Later that day, though, Vickers, Arthur Vickers had
Speaker 1: sent a messenge, you're to the safe. Evidently they had
Speaker 1: received the collar of a deceased Knight of the Order,
Speaker 1: and he said, hey, take that down to the safe
Speaker 1: and put it in the safe, at which point the
Speaker 1: messenger discovered that A the safe was open and be
Speaker 1: the jewels were gone. I at least they didn't get
Speaker 1: that collar. Was it the Was it the cleaning lady?
Speaker 1: I mean like did she seal them? We don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean it seems like that, right, Like if you
Speaker 1: were the cleaning lady and you were going to do
Speaker 1: a theft like this, you would totally be like, hey,
Speaker 1: when I came in today, Sorry, I know we're jumping ahead. Well,
Speaker 1: and there's and there's some facts about locks and keys
Speaker 1: that will help, I think clear the cleaning lady of
Speaker 1: her of her possible suspicion. But then again, maybe not
Speaker 1: one thing I want to know about this safe. It
Speaker 1: had two locks on it, so two locks, two keys.
Speaker 1: But did those two that's my understanding. I said, at
Speaker 1: least something I understood that it was unlock two copies
Speaker 1: of the key original and yeah, and some readings I've
Speaker 1: seen that, But in other ones I say, it looks
Speaker 1: like the say had two locks with two separate keys.
Speaker 1: But you would kind of want for security, right. It's
Speaker 1: like the every time you see on TV where it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: we gotta launch launch the bomb that's going to kill humanity.
Speaker 1: You've got to have like at least two different people
Speaker 1: with two different keys. And yes, and and this is
Speaker 1: jumping ahead a little bit, but I think the way
Speaker 1: that I understood it, there was two copies of the
Speaker 1: key because Vickers, as his position dictated, was always supposed
Speaker 1: to have one copy of the key with him, and
Speaker 1: then he was also supposed to have a second copy
Speaker 1: of the key locked and stowed somewhere in his residence.
Speaker 1: So I got the impression that it was two copies
Speaker 1: of the same key, not two locks with two individual keys.
Speaker 1: That probably, I mean, yeah, okay. But but then the
Speaker 1: cleaning lad clearly could have done it, because once she
Speaker 1: found a strong room open strong and was like there
Speaker 1: was a door and out of door, and then there
Speaker 1: was an inner gate, like her gate was locked, but
Speaker 1: somebody had left the key in the lock, and there
Speaker 1: was a ring of keys hanging from that, and it
Speaker 1: turns out it was Vicker's key ring, So probably the
Speaker 1: key to the safe was on that key ring. So
Speaker 1: she could have boogied in there, got the crown jewels
Speaker 1: stuffed and down her bodice and then you know, and
Speaker 1: then turned the keys into lost and found that's one
Speaker 1: of my favorite phrases in the world. It stuffed it
Speaker 1: down her bodice. I was gonna just like shout out
Speaker 1: that technically bodice is not a thing. Well, you're just
Speaker 1: no fun. Thanks for killing all the fun. We'll just
Speaker 1: move forward the story. She hit it in her underwear, Okay, alright, alright, Well,
Speaker 1: the Dublin Metropolitan Police and the Detective Branch. These are
Speaker 1: two separate groups. Let all away from ourselves. Yeah we did.
Speaker 1: These are two separate groups that are investigative groups that
Speaker 1: are you know, of the Royal Police Society As for
Speaker 1: lack of I made up that phrase, but they're the police.
Speaker 1: They went ahead and they investigated the theft. They determined
Speaker 1: that no doors had been forced open. The manufacturer of
Speaker 1: the safe, remember the guy who built it too big, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and was like yeah, he showed up and said, uh no,
Speaker 1: duplicate had key had been used. And by duplicate, I
Speaker 1: took that to mean that if somebody had made a
Speaker 1: rough copy. And we'll talk about some rough copy stuff
Speaker 1: later on, but if you make a rough copy, it's
Speaker 1: not perfect, but I imagine with a rough copy you
Speaker 1: can kind of jam it in there and bang it around.
Speaker 1: It's almost like, what's the phrase for a key when
Speaker 1: you've a bump key. Yeah, it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: bump key, so it works, but it would mar up
Speaker 1: the inside of the teeth of it. Yeah, yeah, a
Speaker 1: little bit. That's what I infer that. That's what that
Speaker 1: I always when I was reading this, was thinking about
Speaker 1: Charlie's Angels. Do you guys ever see that really crappy
Speaker 1: Charlie's Angels movie that had like Cameron Diaz, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: clo in it. Um, they like took a copy of
Speaker 1: a key by like pushing clay on both sides and
Speaker 1: then like injecting some like metal bouleon in there or whatever.
Speaker 1: That's how like in my mind that you would have
Speaker 1: gotten And that's the easiest way to think about that,
Speaker 1: one way to do it. And so of course it
Speaker 1: would be a crappy, be very very crappy one time
Speaker 1: key or you know, a locksmith could have actually picked it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you would think that a locksmith, if they were
Speaker 1: picking it, they would they would leave some kind of mark.
Speaker 1: If you open up the guts of the safe, you
Speaker 1: would think you would see this this marks where they
Speaker 1: were in there playing around trying to find the tumblers
Speaker 1: to push him in. Also, if the safe was found locked, right,
Speaker 1: you would have to like not only would you have
Speaker 1: to get into it, but you would also have to
Speaker 1: like close it and lock it actually, and that's why
Speaker 1: if you picked the lock, you don't have the key
Speaker 1: to close it with again, and you don't want to
Speaker 1: repick the locks, so it's just sitting open. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's harness. You know. I know this And I saw
Speaker 1: that too, about how this guy pronounced that no duplicate
Speaker 1: And I thought, I'm guessing he's talking about a cheap
Speaker 1: copy with a bump key kind of situation. Granted that
Speaker 1: we're probably looking at more of a skeleton key situation. Well, no, actually,
Speaker 1: this is would be a normal kind of key that
Speaker 1: were Well, there's a guy named Detective Inspector John Kane
Speaker 1: who was of Scotland Yard, the Scotland Yards, the Scotland Yards.
Speaker 1: He compiled the report which evidently he named who he
Speaker 1: was sure the thief was. This is terrible, But the
Speaker 1: commissioner of the Dublin Metro Police refused to accept his
Speaker 1: report for some reason, and his report subsequently disappeared, so gone,
Speaker 1: we don't know who he fingered for the job. It's
Speaker 1: hard when you know there weren't electronic copies of everything.
Speaker 1: That's the problem. You have to be like the I.
Speaker 1: R s to totally lose something that thoroughly. Now, as
Speaker 1: you can imagine, there's there's some huge fallout from the
Speaker 1: theft of these jewels. Uh. Part of the problem right
Speaker 1: away is that it wasn't reported right away. In other words,
Speaker 1: they sat on the fact that these things were missing
Speaker 1: for at least a week, if not two or three
Speaker 1: before they finally admitted it. And when the King Edward
Speaker 1: the Seven figured it out, he was mad, super mad.
Speaker 1: He sacked everybody in the order that was that was there,
Speaker 1: that was an officer in that location. And we got well, yeah,
Speaker 1: now we've got four other guys besides Arthur Vickers. We
Speaker 1: have a gentleman by the name of Francis Shackleton, Pierce Mahoney,
Speaker 1: Sydney Horlock, and Francis Bennett Goldney. These these five guys
Speaker 1: are at the center of the conspiracy. For lack of
Speaker 1: a better phrase of who could have done it. Now,
Speaker 1: there was a commission that was that was put out
Speaker 1: to investigated, a commission of inquiry to look into it.
Speaker 1: But it seems like mostly they were geared at finding
Speaker 1: somebody to point a finger out, and others looking for
Speaker 1: a scapegoat or a patsy. They didn't look for who
Speaker 1: done it. They looked for kind of who was responsible
Speaker 1: for it happening. It was a classic case of who
Speaker 1: done it? Yes, I love that you put your hand
Speaker 1: on your hip. At the same time, if I had
Speaker 1: like the little newsgirl cap, I don't. Yeah, we're like wow.
Speaker 1: I was a classic case with your your little notepad
Speaker 1: in your hand. Yes, yes, yes, but that's that's the end.
Speaker 1: Like the jewels disappeared, we never saw them again. They
Speaker 1: were never found, they were never recovered. We don't know
Speaker 1: what happened to it until today exactly. Yeah. Do you
Speaker 1: want to go through the theory? Just want to. I
Speaker 1: want to go through the theories. We could solve it.
Speaker 1: I know where they are. Where my jewelry case, Oh
Speaker 1: the glass ones that you've got your costume jewelry. No
Speaker 1: they're real? No, no, no, all right, Well I can
Speaker 1: actually tell you I have a family connection to this
Speaker 1: great great uncle Patty stole them. Well let me let me,
Speaker 1: let me just get into the theories. You too, But
Speaker 1: before I know you've got your I know you know
Speaker 1: who done it. But let's like try to hold true
Speaker 1: to the way we do things. I like the modern way.
Speaker 1: He says, who done it? Who done it? Let's find
Speaker 1: out who done it, not let's find out who done it.
Speaker 1: That's because I'm not good with accents and inflection. Just
Speaker 1: th reason I have not tried yet to do a
Speaker 1: terrible Irish accent. Oh I wish you accent? That was?
Speaker 1: That was? That was your? All? Right? Can we not
Speaker 1: learn that he only has one act? I? Can we can? Please?
Speaker 1: Serie number one? Well, he didn't do it, but Arthur
Speaker 1: Vickers was actually completely in totally in a problem. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's let's okay, here's well, let's be honest. Any man
Speaker 1: who's like just throw that thing in the library gonna
Speaker 1: be fine with Colonal Mustard. It's actually and and all
Speaker 1: and fairness to Vickers though, I mean, this is actually
Speaker 1: um Dublin Castle was also like the home of the
Speaker 1: It's under Locking team. I mean there are cops all
Speaker 1: around and stuff like that. Yeah, the reason to believe
Speaker 1: it was fairly secure world. Oh yeah, no, I I
Speaker 1: don't disagree with that at all. Here's the deal. We
Speaker 1: talked about the commission that was set up to investigate this,
Speaker 1: and they focused on Vickers exclusively in this. I mean
Speaker 1: they really did. They just focused on him. I mean,
Speaker 1: I probably would have to I read a book. I
Speaker 1: read some of the old accounts the I mean, you
Speaker 1: can actually find some of the stuff on the web,
Speaker 1: the old typewritten notes from the commission and stuff, and
Speaker 1: it's pretty obvious that they just were out to get him.
Speaker 1: But there was two ways that this commission could be held.
Speaker 1: One they could meet publicly, which means that they could
Speaker 1: compel witnesses to come forward on record, and those witnesses
Speaker 1: had no choice. It's kind of like jury duty. You
Speaker 1: had to come or not jury duty, but in a
Speaker 1: criminal case, you can't refuse to show up very easily, yeah,
Speaker 1: your subpoena. Or they could do it in private, at
Speaker 1: which point they lost that ability for some reason, they
Speaker 1: decided to go with the private option. Well, Vickers at
Speaker 1: this point he's decided that they're looking to whitewash the
Speaker 1: story and they're just looking for a scapegoat. So he
Speaker 1: gets all peeved, and he had counsel with him, and
Speaker 1: he removed his counsel from the entire proceedings. What that meant, though,
Speaker 1: is that he didn't have any way to cross examine
Speaker 1: anybody that they were talking to. So basically, I get
Speaker 1: up there, I tell my story and they say, well,
Speaker 1: say you sir, good day. But if he had been there,
Speaker 1: and he had not bowed out or got mad and left,
Speaker 1: his attorney could have got up there and you know,
Speaker 1: said wait, wait, wait, that doesn't make sense. What are
Speaker 1: you saying here and kind of put it put the
Speaker 1: grill to us, and that very Mason, like you know,
Speaker 1: solved the mystery right there in the courtroom. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because somebody goes, fine, it was me, I did it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't understand why he got so mad at at
Speaker 1: them being private, And maybe it's because then the records
Speaker 1: were sealed and it wasn't public record. It was now
Speaker 1: a private record. I don't know why he It's not
Speaker 1: like he was refusing to cooperate with any inquiry. He
Speaker 1: just wanted to, but he wanted a public in Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so well, and he had a he had a
Speaker 1: pretty valid point that he was pretty sure they were
Speaker 1: whitewashing it because this commission started. Once they started interviewing
Speaker 1: people they were done in fifteen days, which doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like it's a very extensive inquiry. I just don't know
Speaker 1: why you would. I still don't know why you would
Speaker 1: just like pull your counsel though. I mean, that just
Speaker 1: seems like a dumb move. Well, he wasn't known for
Speaker 1: making great decisions because he didn't do such a bang
Speaker 1: up job in his position. Uh he here's here's the
Speaker 1: little history on Vickers. He was known for having a
Speaker 1: few drinks on the job. Supposed he would get drunk
Speaker 1: on site. He evidently once woke up after being he
Speaker 1: got drunk, passed out, woke up wearing the jewels around
Speaker 1: his neck, wearing a collar and and something. One of
Speaker 1: the jewels was pinned to him. And we don't know
Speaker 1: if he got drunk and put him on himself and
Speaker 1: partied around and then passed out, or if somebody put
Speaker 1: him on him as a practical joke. Let me ask
Speaker 1: you this, when he woke up and he found the
Speaker 1: jewels on him, did he have like, uh, did you
Speaker 1: have like writing? Sharpie writing? They didn't have sharpie's Maybe
Speaker 1: lipstick or they didn't They didn't They didn't put on
Speaker 1: his face. Got to do that that's kind of interesting though.
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean, if I had passed out of
Speaker 1: my office and woke up with the Crown jewels on me,
Speaker 1: I don't think i'd tell anybody. I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: know how we know about this. This is the thing.
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that it was in some kind of written
Speaker 1: account somewhere that somebody else had written, Oh yeah, Arthur
Speaker 1: told me this happened. That's the only way I can
Speaker 1: figure out that it got He must have confided to somebody.
Speaker 1: I guess I was going to assume that, Like I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess I can count the number of times that
Speaker 1: I've you know, like passed out drunk like that kind
Speaker 1: of seriously on one hand. But every in every single case,
Speaker 1: it's not like I just like wake up naturally the
Speaker 1: next day and I'm like, oh crap, there's like this
Speaker 1: was a horrible decision. It's usually like somebody coming in
Speaker 1: and being like, hey, dude, hey, you forgot that you're
Speaker 1: going to class. The cleaning lady found him that you
Speaker 1: must have done it. He's always yes, he's always the
Speaker 1: center of these things. But you know, I think it's
Speaker 1: not unreasonable to assume that, like one of his colleagues
Speaker 1: could have come in and been like, hey, dude, wake up,
Speaker 1: what are you doing with all those jewels around your neck?
Speaker 1: And that's how it got in there. Yeah, here's another
Speaker 1: another bit that proved that he didn't do such a
Speaker 1: bank up job. There was a gentleman by the name
Speaker 1: of Lord Hatto. I believe h A D. D O
Speaker 1: Hatto or Hato, I'm not sure how you pronounce it,
Speaker 1: but he was a son of Viceroy Lord Aberdeen. This
Speaker 1: is just Star Wars. Yeah, like lords. None of the
Speaker 1: viceroy he Lord hat Hatto, whichever it is. He visited
Speaker 1: the castle on a pre regular basis and allegedly once
Speaker 1: stole the crown jewels as a practical joke, and then
Speaker 1: put him in the mail the next day and mailed
Speaker 1: him back to Vickers. Hey dude, you you were drunk.
Speaker 1: You left this open, so I sent them back. You
Speaker 1: think that would have been a wake up call for
Speaker 1: old Vickers. Yeah, you would kind of think, like, here's
Speaker 1: a seriously deal all the jewels back. Maybe, or he
Speaker 1: might have bailed back copies waxed copies that melted in
Speaker 1: the summer heat. No. Uh. In May seven, there's this
Speaker 1: is another incident. Vickers left the key to the safe
Speaker 1: attached to a key ring of his own that was
Speaker 1: for the his offices, and he reported it and a
Speaker 1: maid found them and she sent them to the Chief
Speaker 1: Herald's office via another servant. So he's losing these Uh.
Speaker 1: This this obviously proves that the safes weren't always locked,
Speaker 1: and they weren't exactly hard to get into. This guy
Speaker 1: was just leaving stuff open all the time. Well, it
Speaker 1: was a different time, but and I'd say that that
Speaker 1: cleaning lady had just multiple temptations placed in front of it,
Speaker 1: and she kind of did. Yeah, she kind of did. Now. Well,
Speaker 1: and you remember how speaking to the cleaning lady, remember
Speaker 1: how we had talked about the doors were left open
Speaker 1: multiple times. Well, it's theorized that it's possible that Vickers
Speaker 1: was actually leaving the doors open on purpose in this
Speaker 1: this couple of days preceding the discovery of the loss
Speaker 1: of the jewels, and that he had realized that either
Speaker 1: a a prankster had stolen them and he was waiting
Speaker 1: for them to return them, so he's leaving things open
Speaker 1: for them to just put him back, or he had
Speaker 1: realized they had been stolen. He didn't want to admit
Speaker 1: that they had been stolen, and he wanted him to
Speaker 1: be theft to be discovered by somebody other than him,
Speaker 1: or even Another theory on that is that he realized
Speaker 1: that they were gone and he got some kind of
Speaker 1: ransom note and he couldn't raise the money out of
Speaker 1: his own funds, so he's trying to raise awareness of
Speaker 1: it so that then he could get some money to
Speaker 1: pay off the blackmailer to have him returned, and raising
Speaker 1: awareness by what leaving the doors, leaving the doors open
Speaker 1: to have it discovered so somebody be like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: they're gone. Oh yeah, hey, by the way, I got
Speaker 1: this letter saying we need to pay X amount of
Speaker 1: pounds before they'll give them back because at this time,
Speaker 1: well even today, the Irish Ireland uses the pound. That
Speaker 1: it's not the pounds sterling that the UK uses anymore.
Speaker 1: They've separated. But this is a weird little fact. So
Speaker 1: do you know what they call the pound in Ireland?
Speaker 1: The punt put the punt. It's just such a random name.
Speaker 1: I think it's that's how do you think the things
Speaker 1: in the UK? Okay, Well, let's let's keep going alright,
Speaker 1: theory number two. Uh, the jewels were we're stolen, and
Speaker 1: they actually accidentally let the thief in at a stag party. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they did, all right. Remember I talked about there were
Speaker 1: several gentlemen who were working in the office at the time.
Speaker 1: One of those guys, his name is Francis Shackleton. Well,
Speaker 1: Shackleton was openly homosexual. How openly could you be homosexual
Speaker 1: back in those days? Evidently he was very open. He
Speaker 1: was very open about the fact that he was homosexual,
Speaker 1: and it's alleged that he actually had quite a few
Speaker 1: stag parties at the office with men who were of
Speaker 1: the same persuasion. Sorry, I'm pushing so hard against making
Speaker 1: jewels stealing, Joe, I'm gonna keep going so you can
Speaker 1: keep that. Well, it's reported that not only was Shackleton
Speaker 1: at some of these parts, was at all of these parties,
Speaker 1: but every other member of the staff attended the parties
Speaker 1: at some point. So they were all getting drunk at
Speaker 1: the office, having Shenanigan's um. So it's I mean, who knows.
Speaker 1: But the problem is Shackleton also had some high up friends,
Speaker 1: high up as in in the royal family. Because one
Speaker 1: of the people who was at some of these parties
Speaker 1: was the King's brother in law, John Campbell, the ninth
Speaker 1: Duke of Argyle. So these theories, the theories that they
Speaker 1: let they let the thief in. Is either a that
Speaker 1: because the jewels weren't locked up, somebody came to a party,
Speaker 1: realized the jewels weren't locked up and checked the joint
Speaker 1: out to figure out how they could take they could
Speaker 1: pull it off, and then the next time they showed
Speaker 1: up and things weren't locked up, they stole them and
Speaker 1: disappeared into the night. Or and this is this is
Speaker 1: gonna lead into the next theory as well. But it's
Speaker 1: also theorized that Shackleton might have stolen the jewels himself
Speaker 1: and when he was approached about the theft, basically said, hey, uh,
Speaker 1: John Campbell and I were good friends, wink wink, and
Speaker 1: if you start talking about the fact that I stole
Speaker 1: these jewels, I'm going to start talking about the things
Speaker 1: that he does, basically causing a scandal and exposing his lifestyle,
Speaker 1: which was a big issue at that time. It wasn't
Speaker 1: proper for a member of the royal family to be gay.
Speaker 1: It still is probably it probably still is. You never
Speaker 1: hear anything like that, it's always hushed up. You know,
Speaker 1: if he had blackmailed, what do you think they just
Speaker 1: would have murdered him. Well, there's some reasons that they
Speaker 1: might not have murdered him quite so easily. And that
Speaker 1: actually goes into our next theory, which is a good segue.
Speaker 1: Joe Francis Shackelin was a friend of Arthur Vickers and
Speaker 1: he actually lived with the guy for two plus years,
Speaker 1: like two and a half years. Yeah, uh well. He
Speaker 1: also was really bad with money. The guy had racked
Speaker 1: up some serious debts. He had borrowed money from every
Speaker 1: one of his co workers somewhere. You know. I think
Speaker 1: the smallest loan he got from a friend was four
Speaker 1: hundred pounds to the order of fifteen hundred pounds, which
Speaker 1: this is nineteen hundreds, so that is I would say
Speaker 1: that's taking of inflation. Joe, what do you think do
Speaker 1: the math? What do you think, Like, I'm like ten
Speaker 1: to fifty tho dollars into the whole with multiple people
Speaker 1: of the pounds, right, which is like, yeah, well I'm
Speaker 1: just using the pound. Yeah, So I mean he's he's
Speaker 1: seriously in debt. Here's another thing that doesn't go in
Speaker 1: his favor. Is that at a luncheon on July four seven,
Speaker 1: Shackleton said it would not be in the least bit
Speaker 1: surprising to learn that one day the jewels would be stolen.
Speaker 1: He said that two days before the theft was discovered.
Speaker 1: Here's the problem, though, Okay, instantly we're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: Shackleton did it. He's the guy he's saying all these clues.
Speaker 1: I think that would that would tend to actually point
Speaker 1: the other direction because he said it would be really
Speaker 1: easy for them to be stolen, and then they disappeared
Speaker 1: two days later, No, they'd been gone. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think I think it's fairly well the loss was discovered
Speaker 1: two days later. I think this is running in that
Speaker 1: people gloating about a theft. Oh gosh, that bank would
Speaker 1: be so easy to knock over, and then two days
Speaker 1: later the bank gets knocked over. I think it's just
Speaker 1: kind of that he's saying how easy it would be,
Speaker 1: because he's kind of bragging. But here's a problem. He
Speaker 1: wasn't in the country when during the weeks prior since
Speaker 1: that before the jewels disappeared, Shackleton wasn't in the country.
Speaker 1: He was in England, so it couldn't have been Shackleton
Speaker 1: himself that did the theft. Kind a quick ferry right
Speaker 1: over to Dublin, and you know, that's possible, that's not
Speaker 1: that far and it is possible. But it is also
Speaker 1: possible that he had an accomplice. There's a guy by
Speaker 1: the name of Captain Richard Gorge's who he served in
Speaker 1: the army with and they were they were really good friends.
Speaker 1: They had been friends for years. And it's thought that
Speaker 1: maybe he had Gorgees go do the theft while he
Speaker 1: was out of the country so that the blame couldn't
Speaker 1: easily fall on him, was it. Do you think that
Speaker 1: the jewels would have gone for enough to cover all
Speaker 1: his depths? Though? I don't know. Well, if you think
Speaker 1: about and if you think about it, these are encrusted
Speaker 1: with diamonds and rubies and emeralds, and if you break
Speaker 1: those up and you make them into smaller bits of jewelry,
Speaker 1: that's a lot of freaking money. I guess I thought
Speaker 1: that we had read and this may be jumping ahead,
Speaker 1: who read in the the theories somewhere that the jewels
Speaker 1: could have been got for two or three thousand pounds
Speaker 1: And it sounds like he was much more than that.
Speaker 1: In it sounded to me that depending on the version
Speaker 1: of the story, it's anywhere between thirty three thousand pounds
Speaker 1: and fifty at the time of their theft. At the
Speaker 1: time of the theft, but that's as that's as a
Speaker 1: single unity. You can't take this thing to a pawn
Speaker 1: shop and get rid of it. Yeah, you're gonna have
Speaker 1: to break it up. Yeah you have less. And we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that two or three thousand pounds things because
Speaker 1: it's weird that they could be got for that kind
Speaker 1: of money. It's a really small summer month. There's a
Speaker 1: guy by the name and this is a great name,
Speaker 1: Bollmer Hobson. Hobson. Well, it could be that one too.
Speaker 1: He interviewed Gorge's in nineteen twelve, so this is the
Speaker 1: army buddy of Shackleton, and in that interview, Gorgeous strongly
Speaker 1: hinted at his involvement in the crime and that Shackleton
Speaker 1: was his co conspirator. There's also a letter from Vickers
Speaker 1: to Shackleton, and Vickers wrote this on the August seven
Speaker 1: and this was also read into that inquiry that we
Speaker 1: talked about, and in that letter, Vickers made it pretty
Speaker 1: quick clear that he and Goldney suspected Shackleton knew more
Speaker 1: than he had admitted to. And when Vickers was interviewed
Speaker 1: by that detective that we talked about earlier, who said
Speaker 1: he knew who did it, Vickers said, and I quote,
Speaker 1: that they were taken by a man who you know well.
Speaker 1: He was a guest in my house and he treacherously
Speaker 1: took impressions of my keys when I was in my bath.
Speaker 1: He often came to this office on Sundays and he
Speaker 1: used my latch key to get in. He is in
Speaker 1: Paris at the moment, which Vickers or not Vickers, but
Speaker 1: Shackleton went from England to Paris. He then traveled from
Speaker 1: Paris back to Dublin for the inquiry, came in, did
Speaker 1: his inquiry, and then immediately turned around and left again.
Speaker 1: He's doing a lot of finger pointing. So there's all
Speaker 1: this finger pointing that it could have been Shackleton, but
Speaker 1: there's no real good concrete evidence that Vickers was pretty adamant.
Speaker 1: He even even noted in his will and as well
Speaker 1: he accused the thief. Yeah, I guess, but you know,
Speaker 1: at the same time, you can kind of look at
Speaker 1: it like if you were guilty of it and you
Speaker 1: found somebody who like people are kind of thinking, well,
Speaker 1: it could have been this person, right, I guess that's
Speaker 1: vaguely possible that was this person, and you didn't want
Speaker 1: to get caught. The potential for you to say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was told that person. And here's like all the
Speaker 1: reasons that I think it was that person. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that you wouldn't do that. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: the problem is, and here's the other thing about Shackleton,
Speaker 1: he wasn't the best guy in the world himself either.
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like any of these guys were good guys.
Speaker 1: Well no, but Shackleton himself he went to prison in
Speaker 1: nineteen for trying to cheat some lady out of a
Speaker 1: bunch of money her her inheritance. Uh. And so he
Speaker 1: went to jail for I think he was in jail
Speaker 1: for like twenty years long. Yeah, he was in jail
Speaker 1: for ten or twenty years. Like, he didn't he jil
Speaker 1: He's the longest living one of the group of the
Speaker 1: five guys that we're talking about here. So he spent
Speaker 1: time in jail after this, Yes, after so five years
Speaker 1: after this theft happens he goes to jail for ten
Speaker 1: or twenty years, and that's the only reason he ends
Speaker 1: up being living as long as he did. And we'll
Speaker 1: talk about the death of these guys as well here
Speaker 1: in a little bit. But let's let's move on. So
Speaker 1: we'll we'll move away from Shackleton a little bit, actually,
Speaker 1: and we'll go to what Joe was talking about, which is,
Speaker 1: where was it you or Joe that talked about them
Speaker 1: being able to be had for a small amount of money. Okay,
Speaker 1: So this next theory is that the Irish government has
Speaker 1: had them all along. And nineteen seventy six and Irish
Speaker 1: government document is released, a memoranda which is dated nineteen seven,
Speaker 1: which is twenty years after the theft, and then another
Speaker 1: fifty years later it gets released as publication effects essentially yes,
Speaker 1: and it says the Castle Jewels are for sale and
Speaker 1: they could be got for two to three thousand pounds. Well,
Speaker 1: people interpret this that a the jewels had not been
Speaker 1: broken apart and they were still intact as of ninety seven.
Speaker 1: They also infer that they could be purchased and that
Speaker 1: maybe the government wanted to purchase them to keep down
Speaker 1: the Irish people. In other words, a lot of these
Speaker 1: orders at this point in that the late twenties, they're
Speaker 1: gone because if you look at Irish history, this is
Speaker 1: at the beginning of a lot of the turmoil where
Speaker 1: you have unionists and anti unionists in Ireland. The basicly
Speaker 1: the Crown has said you can be free or not.
Speaker 1: The Protestants and the Catholic fight, which makes the i Rara,
Speaker 1: which is a lot of stuff that we know and
Speaker 1: more current history, but that's right around when that stuff
Speaker 1: was happening. So they probably didn't if if we're going
Speaker 1: to say that the Crown had them, they didn't want
Speaker 1: it out there that, hey, we found these you guys
Speaker 1: are re stored to your former glory. Yes, we we
Speaker 1: want you to stay down so that we can keep
Speaker 1: control of the ones that we have control of and
Speaker 1: not have this big co buffalo happened. You know, So
Speaker 1: you know that that means that must be there in
Speaker 1: the Tower of London. Then where else would they keep them?
Speaker 1: Where else would they keep them? The the other direction
Speaker 1: that this whole they had the Irish or the government
Speaker 1: has them is remember how we talked about Shackleton might
Speaker 1: be having some bit of mystery information that was embarrassing.
Speaker 1: So it might be that they did have them, somebody
Speaker 1: knew about it, and maybe we're trying to sell them,
Speaker 1: and then that got quelled and they got stuffed in
Speaker 1: a shelf for in a drawer somewhere in an archive
Speaker 1: with the Ark of the Covenant, and they'll never be
Speaker 1: seen again. Right, That's exactly right. So I just like,
Speaker 1: for the sake of correcting you all the time, every time,
Speaker 1: Ark of the Covenant wouldn't fit in a drawer. If
Speaker 1: it's a big enough drawer, it'll fit pretty big the
Speaker 1: house or the size of a watch, all right, if
Speaker 1: we're saying it's a room sized drawer, So leave the
Speaker 1: drawers out of this, okay. Well, regardless regardless of which
Speaker 1: way it goes down. There was a lot, I mean
Speaker 1: a lot of really odd behavior on the part of
Speaker 1: the Irish government. Well there, their record keeping leaves a
Speaker 1: lot to be desired. Remember we talked about that police
Speaker 1: report that disappeared. There's all kinds of records from this
Speaker 1: time and this case that have disappeared. Now a lot
Speaker 1: of it has been put up on the net. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can read these old type. It's funny to read
Speaker 1: the old typewritten accounts, because I forget. The typewriters aren't
Speaker 1: even whereas the word processor today is. So I'm reading, going, Wow,
Speaker 1: this computer sucks. This scan is terrible. Oh no, wait,
Speaker 1: that's just the way the typewriter wrote. It is kind
Speaker 1: of up and down and uneven. We're used to these
Speaker 1: things now, but some of these things are there and
Speaker 1: some of them are just flat out gone. But that
Speaker 1: takes us to our last theory. I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: whiskey man, that's that's your theories. It's the whiskey. No,
Speaker 1: I mean, whiskey makes you do dumb things. It does,
Speaker 1: it really does. All right, Well, let's let's go to
Speaker 1: our last theory. Uh, we're We're gonna move ahead to
Speaker 1: And there's an article in the Carryman, which is an
Speaker 1: Irish newspaper, and there's a guy by the name of
Speaker 1: Michael Murphy who is the nephew of Michael Murphy, of
Speaker 1: Michael Murphy who was the valet of Arthur Vickers. And
Speaker 1: he did a bunch of research on this and he
Speaker 1: said he had discovered the hiding place of the Irish
Speaker 1: Crown jewels at kill MoMA House. Is that how you
Speaker 1: pronounce that? Anybody have any better idea, I don't k
Speaker 1: thank you. Kil mourna house on Friday, fourteenth of August
Speaker 1: twelve years ago, just twelve years ago, maybe a little
Speaker 1: more than that. Murphy was instructed by a quote unquote
Speaker 1: informant to go to the old garden of the house,
Speaker 1: where he discovered a stone behind a brick wall with
Speaker 1: a Latin inscription. Of course, he believed the jewels had
Speaker 1: been removed from that box that was in the stone.
Speaker 1: He said. He found a portion of an old map
Speaker 1: and other documents from the house before it was burned,
Speaker 1: and that indicated to him that someone had stolen the
Speaker 1: jewels and solved the mystery. But here's the thing I
Speaker 1: come were in the house that was Vicker's house. That
Speaker 1: was Vicker's house, and it was raised to the ground
Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty one, the IRA burned it down. Now
Speaker 1: the murdered Vickers. I was gonna say, everybody involved in
Speaker 1: this story, except for Shackleton, did not get off easy. Uh.
Speaker 1: The IRA killed Vickers in ninety one. They like thirty
Speaker 1: guys shot him at once and then they burned his house. Uh,
Speaker 1: we've got Bennett Goldney. He died in nineteen eighteen after
Speaker 1: a car accident. Yeah, Shackleton died in nineteen forty one.
Speaker 1: He served as prison sentence, went out under a different name,
Speaker 1: and then died of old age. And uh, Sydney how
Speaker 1: what was his name? Hawk Horlock, Sydney Horlock. I couldn't.
Speaker 1: I came across how he died, and then when I
Speaker 1: went to find it again, I couldn't find it. But
Speaker 1: he died in the nineteen teens as well, if I
Speaker 1: I remember correctly, And it wasn't a pleasant end, like
Speaker 1: I don't remember something. Yeah, a nineteen hundreds version of
Speaker 1: a wood Chat basically. But yeah, none of these guys
Speaker 1: did really well. But as we said, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: very possible that if these things got stolen, the jewels
Speaker 1: had to have been broken up to be resold. Now,
Speaker 1: if they're top quality diamonds and rubies and emeralds, even
Speaker 1: in a new piece, they're gonna fetch top dollar, but
Speaker 1: they're not going to be traceable. But that's that's all
Speaker 1: we know. We don't know exactly where they disappeared. Who
Speaker 1: could have actually stolen them other than Joe who swears
Speaker 1: it was the cleaning lady. Now I don't know that
Speaker 1: might have been a cleaning lady. Makes it just sounds
Speaker 1: like the sounds like Vickers was careless enough about security
Speaker 1: and about keeping his keys, you know, like close to him.
Speaker 1: He was really terrible. Yeah, it seems to me that
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of people that could have stolen,
Speaker 1: including including the cleaning lady. There was all this was
Speaker 1: also essentially a police station. There were lots of cops
Speaker 1: coming and going and uh, which do you know, I
Speaker 1: mean not to say anything about about police, but they're
Speaker 1: you know, they are known have corruption there that does happen,
Speaker 1: you know, And so I mean there's all kinds of
Speaker 1: people who coming and going on that building, the constal
Speaker 1: in these things. So yeah, I mean it's yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: would you guys have a theory that you you adhere
Speaker 1: to or you prefer I'm gonna stick with Shackleton just
Speaker 1: for the sheer heck of it. I don't know, Devin, No,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think they all kind of seem equally
Speaker 1: inept and dumb and bad at their jobs, and kind
Speaker 1: of they all have good reason to have stolen them.
Speaker 1: I mean if just even just if you know, for sheer,
Speaker 1: you can break it up and sell them for a
Speaker 1: good amount of money. I mean, I don't think that
Speaker 1: I can't pick one kind of rich, entitled jerk over another. Right,
Speaker 1: and all kind of sound the same. Yeah, I have
Speaker 1: a and I have a hard time pinning down. I mean,
Speaker 1: the one theory that we really haven't talked about is
Speaker 1: there was there's a group known as the Irish Brotherhood.
Speaker 1: There was talk that they had smuggled them out of
Speaker 1: the country to be sold in the United States. But
Speaker 1: that's as far as that theory goes. Yeah, I mean, well,
Speaker 1: the the Irish Brotherhood is the early version of the
Speaker 1: I R A right, But I couldn't find anything to
Speaker 1: even lend a creed and souther there's rumors, so my
Speaker 1: I gotta agree that I think that it's just the
Speaker 1: Shackloon was so inapped that there were so many people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: excuse me, thank you. Wasn't Shackleton. I don't think Shackleton did.
Speaker 1: I think he was kind of the easy scapegoat in this.
Speaker 1: You know, the the quote unquote guy who was bad
Speaker 1: with money air quotes here that nobody can see and
Speaker 1: that you know, Vickers just left the door open and
Speaker 1: somebody he was just waiting for somebody to come in
Speaker 1: and steal the sheep, and I don't themselves. I mean
Speaker 1: it's hard, it's it's hard to tell, Yeah, except that
Speaker 1: he never he never lived a lavish lifestyle. It once
Speaker 1: he was, you know, expelled from office. It wasn't like
Speaker 1: he was living high on the hog or emigrated to
Speaker 1: another country to live lavishly. So that that's the reason
Speaker 1: that I don't think Vickers himself did it. I guess
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell because you know, if you you
Speaker 1: do that sort of thing and you get away with it,
Speaker 1: you go and live a lavish lifestyle. But if you've
Speaker 1: been called into questioning and there's like a private inquiry
Speaker 1: into you, are you gonna be smart enough to say,
Speaker 1: like a crap, I better like waited out a couple
Speaker 1: more years and then you get shot to death by
Speaker 1: the fourteen years later. Well that's a long time to
Speaker 1: wait it out. Yeah, that's true. Now, granted, there's been
Speaker 1: thieves who have stolen major pieces of art and waited
Speaker 1: twenty or thirty years trying to sell it. But still,
Speaker 1: I just I don't know. I have a hard time
Speaker 1: pointing the figure at Vickers. But that's just me. But
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, if you've if you've got any thoughts
Speaker 1: of your own, we'd love to hear about them. You
Speaker 1: can always put a comment on the website with your
Speaker 1: thoughts about this particular story that website is thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: podcast dot com of course, dot com of course you can.
Speaker 1: You can listen to the shows there. You can listen
Speaker 1: to them on iTunes and download subscribe through there. If
Speaker 1: you're on iTunes, go and take the time to leave
Speaker 1: us comment and rating. We always like that. Uh, if
Speaker 1: you forget to download a show and you know that
Speaker 1: it's that day that we're gonna put one out Thursday, Thursday,
Speaker 1: we don't have to be secretive us Thursday. It's Thursday.
Speaker 1: Thursday's my favorite day of the week. That's why we
Speaker 1: do it on Thursdays. No, not really, but you can
Speaker 1: go ahead and you can download or download is the
Speaker 1: wrong word. You can stream it on Stitcher. Stitcher will
Speaker 1: allow you to listen to its streaming on any mobile
Speaker 1: ready device, tablet, phone, whatever the case may be. I know,
Speaker 1: isn't an amazing joke. I know it's your first time
Speaker 1: figured to learn about this. Yeah. Now, of course we've
Speaker 1: got the Facebook page, so we've got the group and
Speaker 1: we've got the page, so please find us and friend
Speaker 1: us on those to see what we've got going on.
Speaker 1: Things were putting up to some good discussions. And of
Speaker 1: course if you did, if you were actually the one
Speaker 1: who stole the jewels or related to the one who
Speaker 1: stole the joy lot, you want to tell us, you
Speaker 1: can send us an email and we it's all in confidence,
Speaker 1: absolutely not in confidence that email. We were going to
Speaker 1: read that over there on the air. We'll keep your
Speaker 1: name quiet though. That email address is thinking Sideways Podcast
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. And with that, uh, I guess
Speaker 1: that's all we've got. Yeah, right, So, yeah, kind of
Speaker 1: a short one this week. Sorry about that, kids, We
Speaker 1: know you'd like to Yeah. Short is an average time. Yes,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that we haven't. This is
Speaker 1: kind of unusual, but we haven't solved the mystery right now,
Speaker 1: I really I did this. Joe at it alright, guys, well,
Speaker 1: we're gonna go ahead and wrap this one up and
Speaker 1: we will talk to you next week. I do own them, though, really,
Speaker 1: why are you looking at me like that? I own
Speaker 1: them