1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. Recently, in our episode on Susie King Taylor, 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: we talked about her account of celebrating the Emancipation Proclamation 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: with a barbecue. Originally, that section of the episode also 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: had a discussion of the Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, which basically 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: gave the rebelling slave states a deadline to stop fighting 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: and rejoin the Union, otherwise all enslaved people in those 7 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: states would be free. Taylor was a laundress for the 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: first South Carolina Volunteers, which were officially mustered in on 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: November seventh, eighteen sixty two, in the window between when 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: Lincoln issued the Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation and when the Emancipation 11 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: Proclamation went into effect. Yeah, she did a lot of 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: things besides being a laundress, but that's how she was 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: enrolled in the volunteers. So that part of the episode 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: I cut that out. It wound up feeling kind of 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: like a digression. But we do have a whole episode 16 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: on the Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation and the political strategy behind 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: it and its impact on a civil war. This was 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: an interview with doctor John B. King, Junior, who at 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: the time was the Secretary of Education under President Barack Obama. 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: Today he is Chancellor of the State University of New York. 21 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 1: This originally came out on August thirty first, twenty sixteen. 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: Tracy B. Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. We have an 25 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: interview today. Yeah, that you did, I did, I did 26 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: do it. We haven't had an interview in a while, 27 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: that's correct. Today we are talking to the Secretary of Education, 28 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: John B. King, Junior and Secretary King joined the United 29 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: States Department of Education as a principal senior Advisor in 30 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, and before that he was the commission of 31 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: Education for the State of New York. But his career 32 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: really began as an educator. He taught social studies in 33 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: San Juan, Puerto Rico, and Boston, Massachusetts. And then earlier 34 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: this year, we got an email from the Department of 35 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: Education asking whether we might like to have him on 36 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: the show. I just I'm gonna go ahead and thank 37 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: the Department of Education for asking that, because this turned 38 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: out to be quite lovely, because the answer was immediately 39 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: uh huh, yes, yes, yes, so I was yes, But 40 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: then it was also okay, how would that work because 41 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: we're not really, you know, an education policy podcast, and 42 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: that that wouldn't really be what our listeners would be 43 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: up for. So what we did was we quickly decided 44 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: on a topic that at that point was completely new 45 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: to me and I think also to Holly. It was 46 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation. I had never heard of this before. 47 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: It was never mentioned in any of my history classes. 48 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: It also didn't come up in any of our many 49 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: previous episodes about slavery, the Civil War and reconstruction, of 50 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: which we have a lot until our recent episode on 51 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: contraband camps that Holly researched, that actually was researched after 52 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: this whole interview was scheduled, Yes, but hadn't happened yet. 53 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: It hadn't happened yet. And I think part of it 54 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: is that this particular document gets amassed into like a big, 55 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: kind of glossed over thing of well, there was a 56 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: lot of back and forth leading up to the Emancipation Proclamation, 57 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: and it kind of gets lumped in and it doesn't 58 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: get a moment to stand on its own and be examined. Yeah, 59 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: the Emancipation Proclamation, the final one, issued by Abraham Lincoln 60 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: on January first of eighteen sixty three, is of course 61 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: way more familiar to most people. That's the one that 62 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: declared that people enslaved in states that were rebelling against 63 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: the Union quote are and henceforward shall be free. That 64 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: January first Emancipation Proclamation did not immediately free everyone who 65 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: was enslaved in the United States. It only applied to 66 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: the Confederate states that were in rebellion, but it did 67 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: just set the stage for the eventual abolition of slavery 68 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: in the entire United States. Another date that comes up 69 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: pretty regularly is June teenth, which is June nineteenth of 70 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five, which is when the people of Galveston, 71 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: Texas finally got the news the Emancipation Proclamation had happened. 72 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: At that point, the war had also ended, so a 73 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: lot of times that comes up as like the like 74 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: the last holdout of chattel slavery in the United States. 75 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: Slavery was formally abolished nationwide with the adoption of the 76 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: Thirteenth Amendment on December eighteenth of eighteen sixty five. So 77 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: what we're talking about today is all stuff from way 78 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: before that. The preliminary Emancipation Proclamation was basically a one 79 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: hundred day warning of the proclamation that was to come 80 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: that following January. The document itself is one of Secretary 81 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: King's particular interests, and while he was Commissioner of Education 82 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: in New York, he took the document itself on a 83 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: seven city tour as part of an exhibition called First 84 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: Step to Freedom. The exhibition started out at the Schomberg 85 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: Center for Research in Black Culture in New York City 86 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,119 Speaker 1: and from there, as we said, it toured to seven 87 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: other cities. Secretary King also co authored the text that 88 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: went along with that exhibition, and the first part of 89 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: our interview with him, we are going to talk about 90 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: why Lincoln decided to basically warn the rebelling states of 91 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: what was coming, and how that document fit into the 92 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: arc of how the Civil War progressed from originally from 93 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: the Union point of view being more about retaining the Union, 94 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: to eventually from the Union point of view being about 95 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: abolishing slavery. So joining us today is Secretary of Education 96 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: John B. King Junior. Thank you so much for being 97 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: on the show today. Happy to do it. So I 98 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: have heard from so many folks on your staff that 99 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: one of your passions is the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation. And 100 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: so on September twenty second, eighteen sixty two, which was 101 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: one hundred days before he issued the Emancipation Proclamation, President 102 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln issued this preliminary Proclamation that said, among other things, 103 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: that if the rebelling States did not return to the Union, 104 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: their enslaved populations would be forever freed. So what led 105 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: to President Lincoln basically warning the rebelling states that this 106 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: was going to happen. Well, so you know, in many 107 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: ways it was for Lincoln a manner of political strategy 108 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: right to build public will around the Emancipation Proclamation. He 109 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: wanted to both convey that the South had had an 110 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: opportunity to return to the Union and also build public 111 00:06:52,320 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: understanding that this was essential step in order to successfully 112 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: prosecute the Civil War. And interestingly, he sort of timed 113 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: issuing the Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation for a moment when the 114 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: North was doing better in the Civil War. So the 115 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: date that it was issued is actually bound up with 116 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: the Battle at Antietam, and it was the success there 117 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: that allowed him to issue it because he had been 118 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: warned by Secretary Seward back in July that if he 119 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: issued the preliminary emancipation Proclamation at a low moment in 120 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: the conflict, it would seem like desperation, but if he 121 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: did it after a victory, it would seem like a 122 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: more confident maneuver done to give it South a chance 123 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: to return to the Union on the right terms, or 124 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: to move forward to finish the war. Was there any 125 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: chance at all that the rebelling states were going to 126 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: rejoin the Union after this essentially threat. No. I think 127 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: this really was Lincoln, as master politician, figuring out what 128 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: it would take to build public will. He also wanted 129 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: realized the historical importance of the Emancipation Proclamation, that in 130 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: many ways it was fulfillment of the promise of the 131 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: Declaration of Independence, critical defining moment for the country, And 132 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: I think wanted to have the Emancipation Proclamation have the 133 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: strongest possible foundation because he recognized its importance. So part 134 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: of this was, as you said, laying this legal groundwork 135 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: for future emancipation. So what would have happened if these 136 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: states had rejoined the Union in an effort to not 137 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:02,359 Speaker 1: have their slaves emancipated well. Interestingly, in the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, 138 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: there's language around the possibility that there would be some 139 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: sort of financial renumeration for the owners of slaves if 140 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: the slave states returned. That language does not appear in 141 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: the in the January eighteen sixty three Amancipatient Proclamation. And 142 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: so Lincoln had a vision that least in theory, that 143 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: the institution of slavery could have been on a kind 144 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: of a path to disappearance, eliminated in the territories, sort 145 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: of phased out in the states that had slavery in place. 146 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: But I think ultimately Lincoln understood that this was a 147 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: step that would ultimately change the nature of the war 148 00:09:54,920 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: and make the war fundamentally not just about protecting the Union, 149 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: but about ending the institution of slavery. Oh and that 150 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: really leads really well into my next question, which is, 151 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: at the start of the war, several slave states had 152 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: basically promised that they would secede if Lincoln was elected, 153 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: And so then he was elected and they did secede. 154 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: But from Lincoln's point of view, the war at the 155 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: beginning was not really so much about slavery as it 156 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: was about preserving the Union, and it was like the 157 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: focus gradually became it came around to the abolition of 158 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: slavery as the war progressed. So where does the preliminary 159 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: Emancipation Proclamation fit into this arc of moving from it 160 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: being about preserving the Union to also being about ending 161 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: the institution of slavery. You know, it's an interesting question, 162 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: I'm one that really the scholars of Lincoln have debated. 163 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 1: So there's one view that is that Lincoln all ways 164 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: intended to make progress towards the eventual abolition of slavery, 165 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: but was a savvy and thoughtful politician understood that the 166 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: first step was to not have slavery expand into the 167 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: into the territories. As the war began, saw the opportunity 168 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: to move towards emancipation, and pursued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation 169 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: and the Emancipation Proclamation as as a tactic to satisfy 170 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: his ultimate goal of the elimination of slavery. So that's 171 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: one view. Another view is that Lincoln was most focused 172 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: always on preservation of the Union and would have chosen 173 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: that above all else. And you know, there's of course 174 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: the you know, the famous language from Lincoln where he 175 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: tries to make that make the point that he would 176 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: preserve the Union above all else, whether that was with 177 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: or without the institution of slavery. So one view is 178 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: that that was a genuine articulation of his view, and 179 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: another view would be that it was a political strategy 180 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: and that he realized he had to build public will 181 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: over time. And you know, and some of Lincoln's writing, 182 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: you hear him talking about the idea that public will 183 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: is essential to accomplishing things that are hard, and that 184 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: you need to bring the public along with you. So 185 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: I love his idea of the president needing to bring 186 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 1: the public along with him as he and the nation 187 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: were gradually moving toward abolishing slavery. That idea has been 188 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: present and so so many social changes we have talked 189 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: about on the show before, Like we've talked about some 190 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: really difficult times in the United States where a change 191 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: needed to be made and it took a while to 192 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: bring the people along to be more on board with 193 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: the change. So it's really interesting to talk about this 194 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: document as one piece of a more gradual attempt to 195 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: change the public view to the idea that abolishing slavery 196 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: was really something that needed to happen entirely it is. It's, uh, 197 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, we often think about this period, I think, 198 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: particularly in history in a way where it gets taught 199 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: in a very black and white way. And I don't 200 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: mean that to be punny, but it's like this happened, 201 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: and then everybody got it, and then this happened and 202 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 1: everybody and it's like no, no, no, no no, no. It 203 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: was a slope for like, none of these steps were immediate. 204 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: They were not you know, like a door opening or closing. 205 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: It was all like gradual. You really had to like 206 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: coax it through its processes. So then continue the coaxing 207 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: for more than a century afterwards. So we were going 208 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: to take a brief break for a word from a 209 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: sponsor before we get back to talking to Secretary King. 210 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: So next up in Tracy's talk with Secretary King, they're 211 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: going to talk about the language of the document, which 212 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: is a lot more formal and legal than the Lincoln 213 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: era documents that a lot of US school kids wind 214 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: up memorizing four class It does not at all sound 215 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: like four score and seven years ago, not remotely. So 216 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think a lot of 217 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: people remember most about Lincoln from their just regular history 218 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: classes is the get the Gettysburg address, And that is 219 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: an address that you would probably describe as being beautifully written. 220 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: It has this almost poetic, flowing language, and this document 221 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: does not really have that. It is a lot more 222 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: formal and egal in its tone. Can you talk about 223 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: that difference a little bit? Sure? Well, you know, Lincoln 224 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: was a lawyer, and he thought about this as a 225 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: as a legal action that would need to be legally defensible, 226 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: and view the emancipation Proclamation as exercise of the sort 227 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: of presidential war powers. And so the document is in 228 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: very legalistic prose and intentionally so. And he took great 229 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: care and personally authoring the document and the version of 230 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: the primary Emancipation Proclamation that the New York State Library has, 231 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: the original in Lincoln's own hand, even has cut and 232 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: pasted sections from the confiscation Acts where you can see 233 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: that he literally cut them out and pasted them. And 234 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: there's even that spot where you can see Lincoln's thumb 235 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: print in glue um on the document as he cut 236 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: and pasted into it. So this was this was for 237 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: Lincoln a very careful step, and it's it's you know, 238 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: I think one of the powerful things as a teacher 239 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: UM as you're teaching these documents is to see the 240 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: complexity of the role of historic figures. You know that 241 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: Lincoln was president making political judgments, thinking about um his legacy, 242 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: thinking about the importance of these events in the grand 243 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: sweep of history, their significance for the country. He wanted 244 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: to make sure that that emancipation succeeded. He wanted to 245 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: make sure he built public support, that he had a 246 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: strong legal position, and that he could navigate to emancipation 247 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: while preserving the role of the border states that were 248 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: members of the Union. So this is all very very 249 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: carefully executed by Lincoln. The first time that I actually 250 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: read this, it was a transcript of the document because 251 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: I have a very hard time with historical handwriting, and 252 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: I didn't realize until much later that those sections of 253 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: the previous acts were literally cut out and pasted to 254 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: the document. And that quickly became one of my favorite 255 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,239 Speaker 1: things about it, was that he cut it out and 256 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: pasted it on there so it would be exactly the 257 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: word for word, and then also not have to rewrite 258 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: the whole thing yeah, yeah, old fashioned before before long 259 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: before the cutting and pasting of Microsoft word. Yea, So 260 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: there is there's one copy of this document that's in 261 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: the president's own handwriting. What happened to that physical copy 262 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: once he signed it? Well, so you know. Later the 263 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: document was donated to a commission that was set up 264 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: for the care of soldiers, of medical care of soldiers, 265 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: and that commission then held a auction and an abolitionist 266 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: won the documented an auction. He bought a lot of 267 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: tickets in the auction or raffle, and then the New 268 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: York State Legislature allocated funding to buy the document from him, 269 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: and that's how it came to be in the possession 270 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: of New York State. And New York State has periodically 271 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: shared the document with the public. And when I was 272 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: State Commissioner in New York, I was privileged to be 273 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: a part of an effort where we developed an exhibit 274 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: with the Pulmonary Mancipation Proclamation and also a speech that 275 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: doctor King gave on the hundredth anniversary of the Pulmonary 276 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: Mancipation Proclamation, And we built an exhibit for kids with 277 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: the two documents and took it all around the state 278 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: and it was during the time that the Lincoln movie 279 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: was coming out, and there was a lot of interest 280 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: when we had thousands of people and thousands of students 281 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: from schools all over the state come to see this 282 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: exhibit and come to see the document, and you can 283 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: really see people's appreciation for Lincoln in their enthusiasm just 284 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: to stand in the same space as this document. So, 285 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is the case now. And 286 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: when I was studying, you know, k through twelve American history, 287 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: this was in the late nineteen eighties, early nineteen nineties, 288 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: and this whole idea that there was a preliminary Emancipation 289 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: Proclamation and that there was a process of setting legal 290 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: foundations in order to abolish the institution of slavery, that 291 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: was skipped completely over and it seemed more like the 292 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: Emancipation Proclamation and just kind of appeared out of whole cloth, 293 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: and then the slaves were free, and that's it's that's 294 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: not at all what happened. Why do you think so 295 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: much of that process is omitted from so many history 296 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: lessons about the Civil War and the abolition of slavery. Well, 297 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, I thinks as a country, you know, we 298 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: so celebrate Lincoln's legacy and the notion of Lincoln as 299 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: the emancipator, which is true and right, but there's also 300 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: nuance behind that. And you know, one of the things 301 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: I tried to do when I taught in high school 302 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: history and also high school Civics was to China have 303 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: students get a sense of the complexity of politics throughout 304 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 1: our history. You know, It's one of the great things 305 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: about the Hamilton Musical is I think it's given a 306 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: generation of Americans a better under standing that these figures 307 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: in history aren't just two dimensional characters that a pr 308 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: and our currency. That they're complicated people operating in complicated times, 309 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: making political judgments, making very strategic decisions. And you know, 310 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: from my perspective, it makes Abraham Lincoln even more heroic 311 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: because you understand that that that he had to have 312 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: carefully plotted legal strategy, a carefully plotted political strategy to 313 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: accomplish emancipatient and ultimately to win the Civil War. It's 314 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: one of the nice things about some of the recent 315 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: books and study on Lyndon Johnson and the path to 316 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. Yeah, 317 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: these important achievements are the product not of a sudden inspiration, 318 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: but rather careful execution by very capable politicians. And sometimes 319 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: the word politician is put in a negative light, but 320 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln was a very very capable politician. So before 321 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 1: we get to the end of our interview, we're going 322 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: to stop for one more brief word from a sponsor, 323 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: and after we hear from that sponsor, we are going 324 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: to talk about why this particular document is so personally 325 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: important to Secretary King. Okay, so let's get to the 326 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: end of the interview. Secretary King is going to talk 327 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: about the documents personal importance to him and as also 328 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: how it fits into the greater arc of progress toward 329 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: racial equality in the United States. So every person I 330 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: spoke with while arranging this interview with you talked about 331 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: this document being really important to you. So what does 332 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: this document specifically mean to you? And why why is 333 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: it the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation in particular that has so 334 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: captivated you. You know, I think for me, it's a 335 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: reflection of um both the ways in which United States 336 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: has fallen short of the founding values. You know that 337 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: that we have to acknowledge that the United States began 338 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: very much with the institution of slavery as fundamental to 339 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: how the country works. And there was a real tension 340 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: between the institution of slavery and the promise of the 341 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: Declaration of Independence and then and the notion, the notion 342 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: that all men aren't created equal, and so there was 343 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: this gap, and we all as Americans need to appreciate 344 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: that complexity of our history around issues of race. At 345 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: the same time, the document also illustrates and something the 346 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: President often talks about, that the trajectory of America is 347 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: towards greater equality, greater opportunity over time. And so this period, 348 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: the Civil War and reconstruction are really a second birth 349 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: of the United States. You know, when you look at 350 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: the thirteenth fourteen, fifteenth Amendments, which were really products of 351 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: the Civil War and reconstruction, they expanded the definition of 352 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 1: American equality and American democracy, and this document was very 353 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: much a part of that journey. And then the last 354 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: pieces this document is also about the complexity of government, 355 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: the importance of leaders figuring out how to bring the 356 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: public along on things that are hard, the importance of 357 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: leaders having a good political strategy, a good legal strategy, 358 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: as well as moral higher purpose, and Lincoln really combined 359 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: all of those things, and you see that very much 360 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: in this document and the eventual January Emancipation Proclamation January 361 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty three. So is there anything else about this 362 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: document or its history that you really think that listeners 363 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: to our show should know? You know, the one thing 364 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: I would say is, just speaking as a teacher, I 365 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: just think there's so much power in students engaging with 366 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: primary source documents. And it's one thing to read, you know, 367 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: a textbook and what the textbook might say, but it's 368 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: another to delve into a historical document and really appreciate 369 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: what the author was trying to accomplish, the choices the 370 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: author made. You can imagine a powerful unit comprised of 371 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: this preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, the Mancipation Proclamation of January eighteen 372 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: sixty three, the Gettysburg Address, the Second Inaugural Address, the thirteenth, fourteen, 373 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: fifteenth Amendments. You know, just study through those powerful historical texts, 374 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: and it can be a way to inspire students both 375 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: about literacy and about social studies. It also can be 376 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 1: a way to help students see the nuances in our history. 377 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak 378 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: with us today. Was a pleasure to have you on 379 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: the show. Thanks, it's fun to talk with you, and 380 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: thanks for what you do making sure folks are learning 381 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:33,959 Speaker 1: about our history. Thanks so much for joining us on 382 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: this Saturday. Since this episode is out of the archive, 383 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: if you heard an email address or a Facebook RL 384 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: or something similar over the course of the show, that 385 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: could be obsolete now. Our current email address is History 386 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. Our old health stuff works 387 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: email address no longer works, and you can find us 388 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: all over social media at missed in History. 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