1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to blow your mind. From how stupor 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: com a man he had known in Boston, a painter 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: of strange pictures with a secret studio and an ancient 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: and unhallowed alley near a graveyard, had actually made friends 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: with the ghouls and had taught him to understand the 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: simpler part of their disgusting meeping and glibbering. For all 7 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: their laughter, ghouls or a doola hunger is the fire 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: in which they burn, and it burns hotter than the 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: hunger for powers over men or for knowledge of the 10 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: gods in a craze mortal. It vaporizes delicacy and leaves 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: behind only a slag of anger and lust. Hey, welcome 12 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: to stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert 13 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And those were two quick readings, 14 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: the first from HP Lovecrafts The dream Quest of Unknown 15 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: Cataf and the second from Brian McNaughton's The Throne of 16 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: bones Um, available via Wildside Press. And that, by the way, 17 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: is not only one of my favorite publications that deal 18 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: with Google's, it's probably one of my favorite books of 19 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: all time. Now do you love it more than the 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: D and D Monster Manual. Well, the two different types 21 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: of reads there. I mean, I do love the Monster 22 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: Manual for my sort of catalog oriented monster consideration. And indeed, 23 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: girls have have long had a cherished role in the 24 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,639 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons setting. So what is Throwing of Bones about. 25 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: Throwing of Bones is a It's a collection of short 26 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: stories in one central novella set in a dark fantasy 27 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: setting that's vaguely Roman, vaguely tolkien Esque, I guess, but 28 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: but has more common with the works of say Clark, 29 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: Ashton Smith and some of the weird dark fantasy writers 30 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: of an earlier time. Oh, I should get into that, 31 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: because I've recently discovered that I really dig Roman themes 32 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: in in dark literature, because on your and Christians recommendation, 33 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: I read The Great God Pan, which has that that 34 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: fantastic reference to the statues from ancient Rome of the 35 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: you know, the horrific visage of the goat, the old 36 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: goat skin. Yeah. Well, one of the things I love 37 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: about mcnonton's work is that he brings this dark seriousness 38 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: of weird fiction and horror into his writing. But there's 39 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: also this gallows humor. There's this Uh, especially prominent with 40 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: the ghouls, because the ghoul is this creature that in 41 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: It's in the versions that I like the most. They're 42 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: they're gross, they're evil, they're sly, but they're also a 43 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: little mischievous. They also have this weird, black sense of 44 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: humor about them. Uh, and I feel mcnaton it really 45 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: brings that to life. Well, if you haven't figured it 46 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: out by now, we're going to be talking about Google's today, 47 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: and sadly, I think this is going to have to 48 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: be our final October podcast. It has been a great 49 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: run this month of monsters and demons and madness. We're 50 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: gonna have to sober up in the next episode a 51 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: little bit and get get back on track for the holidays. 52 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's been a fun right, Okay, So Google's. 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: I think these days, when the average person is presented 54 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: with the concept of a ghoule, what kind of descriptive 55 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: features are you're gonna get? I would say they'd be 56 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: very generic. I mean, what is a ghoul to us today? 57 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: It's just some kind of vaguely monstrous creature. In fact, 58 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: you could even think of Google as a broader term 59 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: into which other monsters fit, like the vampire is a 60 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: type of Google. Well, the word is used that way 61 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: a lot. I have to admit that I have to 62 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: bite my tongue to keep from correcting people when someone 63 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: refers to a non Google as a Google, I want 64 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: to say, no, that's that's technically not a Google. That 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: is just a ghost, that is somebody in a vampire costume. 66 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: A Google is a specific thing, and you have to 67 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: use the term appropriately. Yeah, well I brought that up 68 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: specifically to provoke you. So Robert, come on, tell me 69 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,679 Speaker 1: what is a gooul really? All right, So it's gonna 70 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: it's gonna vary, and we're gonna get it before we 71 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: end up at discussing actual science behind the Google. So yes, 72 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: that is coming in the second half. We're going to 73 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: discuss the ancient roots and sort of the modern fictional roots. 74 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: But in most cases, you're looking at this creature that 75 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: might be unliving or maybe it's just living on the 76 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: margins of what we think of as as an actual 77 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: appropriate member of the natural world. It's very much the 78 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: monster as outsider, a motif very much so, yeah, making 79 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: its home graveyards and places of of of loss and death, 80 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: and it feasts upon human remains, so it is essentially 81 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: a cannibalistic scavenger and scavin you're in the true sense, 82 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: and that it's sort of dwells at the edges of 83 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: the camp. You know, you have civilization as the encampment 84 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: where our activity dwells. You don't find the Ghoul in 85 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: the middle of the city. You find the Google trailing 86 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: behind you, feasting on what you leave behind. Right, Yeah, 87 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: I think in some cases you have Googles that are 88 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: following armies. I always love that motif and would love 89 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: to see that that that used more, especially in the 90 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: fantasy settings. You have some some sort of army going 91 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: out to fight a battle as they always do. Well, 92 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: then surely they are camp followers and there are Googles 93 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: right behind them. Yeah, the other type of camp follower. 94 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: But based on what we've said so far, it should 95 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: be clear that the concept of the Google has not 96 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: remained static over time. I mean, it's not even fully unified. Today. 97 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: You've got this generic goal and then you've got Robert's 98 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: very specific goal. How has the goule changed over time? 99 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: And where did the idea originally come from? All right, well, 100 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: let's go back to the beginnings. Then if not the 101 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: beginning of the universe, because we have to look at 102 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: pre Islamic Arabic mythology. This mythology is so cool and 103 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: I was so delighted to read it. So our main 104 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: source on this is a paper by Ahmed al Rawi 105 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: called the Mythical Ghoul in Arabic Culture, and this was 106 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: a really fun read. Yes it was. This was one 107 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: of my key sources on the house stuff works article 108 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: how ghouls work. Um, yeah, and he gets into the 109 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, just the original root of the word word 110 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: for starters, which is from the Arabic ghoule or g 111 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: h u l that may stem from Galu, which is 112 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: the name of an ancient demon correct and the galou 113 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: played a role in some of their their key literature 114 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: and mythology, one of them being the death and rebirth 115 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: mythology of the god Demuzi or the Demuzi is sort 116 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: of equal to Tamus, which is another god of the 117 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: ancient Middle East. But the death and rebirth mythology corresponds 118 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: to the growth and harvest cycle of food crops. So 119 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: there you can see another one of the ways that 120 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: that our mythology ties into our way of life, the 121 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: way we make a living in our and our basic 122 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: material concerns inform the stories we tell about, you know, 123 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: the creation of the world and the behavior of the gods. 124 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: And and there you've got just like the crops die 125 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: every year and then are reborn later in the next 126 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: season or regrow out of you know, the dead fields 127 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: of the previous harvest. You've got the god Demuzi or 128 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: Tammuz is a vegetation god who is abducted and taken 129 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: down into the realm of death. And who is the 130 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: abductor of Demuzi or Tammus. It's the Galu, the demon right. 131 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 1: And this is fascinating too, because we see the google 132 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: tied into some of our our earliest and most powerful 133 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: myths concerning the flow to seasons. Totally yeah, But following 134 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: its role in the official mythology of of ancient Babylon 135 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: and ancient Mesopotamia, you have this idea of the ghoule 136 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: emerging as more of a ground the level folklore creature. 137 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: You know that that it's mentioned all in all of 138 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: the standard mythology and folk tales and superstitions of the 139 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: average person living in the Arabian Peninsula and Arabic scholars 140 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: have actually documented the way in which this monster emerged 141 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: in the thinking of the people. Yeah, Arabic scholars of 142 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: the eighth, ninth, and ten centuries, they compiled various Bedouin 143 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: folk tales involving the Gooules, and many of these found 144 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: their way into the collection The Thousand and One Nights. 145 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: And this is key because translations of this book, of 146 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: course traveled to Europe in the eighteenth century, as did 147 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: the notion with the Ghoul. And this is where, as 148 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: we'll get into later, we see the google emerge in 149 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: Western culture and in the in eventually in fictional creations 150 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: of the late eighteenth century and a most importantly the 151 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: nineteenth twentieth century. Yeah, so I get the feeling it's 152 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: more the European grave ghoul that ends up becoming the 153 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: D and D monster. Yes, you do see at times, 154 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: say the modern motifs kind of reaching back into into 155 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: Arabic folklore for for some additional depth. Yeah, I figured 156 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: we should mention a couple of these pre Islamic ghoul 157 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: accounts because they are fascinating. So one of the stories 158 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: that al Rawi tells in his paper is that it's 159 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: recounted according to the scholar Al Masudi, and he writes 160 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: the following. Arabs before Islam believed that when God created 161 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: genies from the gusts of fire, he made from this 162 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: type of fire their female part, but one of their 163 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: eggs was split into hince the kutrube, which looked like 164 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: a cat, was created. As for the devils, they came 165 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: from another egg and settled in the seas. Other evil 166 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: creatures such as the mariad inhabited the islands, The ghoul 167 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: resided in the wilderness, and the siloi dwelt in the 168 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: lavatories and waste areas, and the Hamma lived in the 169 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: air in the form of a flying snake. So these 170 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: are some awesome monsters that are being described here. I 171 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: love the idea of a lavatory and waste area monster. Yeah, 172 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: because that's again it's a it's a wonderful place for 173 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: a haunting. That's a wonderful borderland. Right. Well, it's a 174 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: place where you're vulnerable and usually where you're isolated, right 175 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: where do you have to go off by yourself? Yeah, 176 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: and that's where you might encounter the supernatural. Um But then, 177 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: of course there is another source that says that quote 178 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: the devils wanted to eavesdrop on heaven, so God threw 179 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: meteors at them, where upon some were burnt, fell into 180 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: the sea and later turned into crocodiles, while others dropped 181 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: onto the ground and changed into ghouls. So there you've 182 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: got a ghoule origin and a crocodile origin at the 183 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: same time. They're essentially siblings. Um and plenty of the 184 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: other stories also depict the ghoul as a shape shifter 185 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: that's able to disguise its appearance. Uh. This appears to 186 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: be a common feature. Other common features are that the 187 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: traditional Arabic goal is often female in appearance. And I 188 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: thought this was interesting. It can be killed with a 189 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: good chop from a sword, and if I'm reading this right, 190 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: it sort of makes it different from the vampire, the werewolf, 191 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: and these other monsters which can often only be killed 192 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: through magically appropriate means, like you have to have the 193 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, the one magic bullet that is known to 194 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: kill the monster, as a silver holy water stake through 195 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: the heart or or whatever it is for that monster. Individually, 196 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: the ghoul can be killed by violence, but it does 197 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: have to be a very mighty and strategic form of violence. 198 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: Because an interesting development on the myth is that, according 199 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: to some versions, the ghoul would only die if you 200 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: hit it with one mighty blow with a sword, because 201 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: if you hit it more than once, then you would 202 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: have to hit it a thousand times more before it 203 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: would die. Yeah, that's so you had to time your 204 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: one strike, you know, you had to get the one 205 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: really good one in. Well, that could I could see 206 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: that making sense in terms of the creature. You sort 207 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: of have to get that surprise hit in. You've got 208 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: to get that. To put in D n D terms, 209 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: you have to get that that that surprise attack bonus, right, 210 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: and if you don't, then you're gonna have to apply 211 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: a lot of smaller attacks to win. I've also read 212 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: and this would of course be post uh Islamic interpretations, 213 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: but in these interpretations you could also at least drive 214 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: a ghoul away with readings from the Koran. Yeah, that 215 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: definitely comes up later where you can use the holy 216 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: or spiritual power of of a of a good spiritual 217 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: force by like saying the name of Allah or by 218 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: quoting from the Koran, and that will tend to drive 219 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: it into remission. Essentially, it will say, no, why do 220 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: you do this to me? But you can also whack 221 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: it with the sword as long as you whack it 222 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: really good. Just once. Now, speaking of Islamic traditions, you're 223 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: probably wondering, what did Mohammed have to say about Google's. Well, 224 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: Mohammed's words on the existence of gules vary depending on 225 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: which text you read, So the Koran does not mention 226 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: them at all. That's important to stress here that the 227 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: Koran does mention gin but not not ghoules. Yes, but 228 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: contested references do pop up in the head Ether that's 229 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: a book of mohammed attributed acts and sayings. Yeah, so 230 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: they're they're definitely conflicting bits of scholarship about what Mohammed 231 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: had to say about ghouls if anything, But to quote, 232 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: I'll RAWI again on the people who do say that 233 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: the prophet had something to say about ghouls. What he 234 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: said was quote, Ghouls are the demons or enchantresses of 235 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: genies that hurt human beings by eating or spoiling their 236 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: food or by frightening travelers when they're in the wilderness, 237 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: and in order to avoid their harm, one can recite 238 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: a verse from the Holy Koran or call for prayer. 239 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: Since they hate any reference to God. And that first 240 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: part mentioned something about the wilderness. This is something that 241 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: pops up again in in in the literature about the 242 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: about the ghouls that you know, these ancient ghoul folk tales, 243 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: is you don't expect to encounter them in the middle 244 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: of civilization there. You encounter them on the road in 245 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: the wilderness between places there, in that intermediary world. I 246 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: like to how this mentions um eating and spoiling of food. 247 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: It's tied uh inherently to our survival via consumption of 248 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: food and the potential violation of that food, and and 249 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: and just into general um ideas of purity and cleanliness 250 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: in our food. Yeah. Well, I mean, you certainly don't 251 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: want something that eats corpse flesh getting into your pantry, right, Yeah, 252 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: they're just going to tear it out in there, obviously. 253 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: But you may have noticed that so far there hasn't 254 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: been a whole lot, if anything, about the eating of 255 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: corpse flesh. That's right, And that's something that we'll get 256 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: into in a bit now. In some accounts, Mohammed dismisses 257 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: ghoules as completely non existent, and others he gives advice 258 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: on banishing them. His companion, though abou Asad al Sadi 259 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: takes a more balanced approach, and he states that ghoules 260 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: lived in the pre Islamic past, but that Allah no 261 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: longer permits them to exist. Meanwhile, there's also a legend 262 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: that Umar been All caught him another of Mohammed's companions, 263 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: put a google to the sword on the road to Syria. Yeah, 264 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: this was great. So the story goes a female ghoul 265 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: stops him on the road and asks him where are 266 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: you going? And Umar says it is none of her business. 267 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: And then she does the move from the Exorcist where 268 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: she turns her head all the way around. That's really 269 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: part of the story. It said that. Uh, and then 270 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: he splits her down the middle with the sword. Alright, 271 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: so single I'm guessing single blow there, right, he does it, right, 272 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: He hits her with the one blow. But then later 273 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: he comes back and the body is gone. H So 274 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: either she survived or the other ghoules came and took 275 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: her body away, or more some sort of magical disappearance. Yeah. So, 276 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: so if we consider the google that eats human flesh 277 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: kind of perversion of the idea of corpse cannibalism, what 278 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: is the ghoul that eats ghoul flesh. It's like meta cannibalism. Yeah, yeah, 279 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: I mean, and it certainly ties in with with how 280 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: we see scavengers, the hate towards their own sometimes. And 281 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: that's that's key here, because although ghouls were sometimes associated 282 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: with scavenging hyenas in a in Arabic test, they really 283 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: don't have this grave ghoul association where they're going to 284 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: come and take your dead loved ones from the graveyard 285 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: after the funeral and eat their corpses. Yeah. This particular detail, 286 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,479 Speaker 1: according to al Rawi, seems to emerge from Anton Glan's 287 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: French translation of The Thousand and One Nights in the 288 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: early eighteenth century. So not only did Ghalan take liberties 289 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: in his translation, he even introduced and allegedly created a 290 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: female character named Amina who prefers the company of graveyard 291 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: ghouls to that of her new husband. Yeah. So this 292 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: and you can see this definitely appealing to some of 293 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: the Gothics sensibilities of the time in Europe. Right, But 294 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: this inaccurate translation was hugely influential in the Western world 295 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: and and in you know, informing their the Western worlds 296 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: understanding of the Middle East, so inspiring the work of 297 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: William Beckford, the eighteenth century author of the Arabian theme 298 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: novel Vfic, and the folkloric studies of of another individual 299 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: named Sabine Baring Gould. So we see. So that's interesting, 300 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: and you have this rich tradition of ghouls within in 301 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: the Arabic traditions, just some wonderful details. They're already a 302 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: fabulous creature. But then it gets tweaked a little bit, 303 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: either in you know, mistranslation or creative embellishment of the 304 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: myth as it translates into European um fiction and folklore 305 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: and European understandings of the Middle East. Yeah, it's fascinating, 306 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: this evolution of the ghoul meme because if you trace 307 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: the ancient pre Islamic Arabic ghoul up through the way 308 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: the grave ghoul comes to be under stood in European culture. 309 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: What's the common thread there? I mean, you've seen the 310 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: evolution basically of a word, the word ghoul, But is 311 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: there a common thematic element that remains the same throughout 312 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 1: it despite just general monstrousness or malevolence. Yeah, I think 313 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: it works like I feel like that the google as 314 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: we have seen it and discussed it in in pre 315 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: European traditions. I feel like it's able to take on 316 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: the mantle of of corpse eating rather rather honestly like 317 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: it adds another dimension to it and certainly tweaks it 318 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: in a new direction, but not in a direction that 319 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 1: feels out of character with its origins. Okay, I can 320 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: accept that. Now, if we look elsewhere in the world, 321 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: do we find myths of creatures that are similar to 322 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: the ghoul we do? Uh? Yeah, It's definitely worth noting 323 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: that even if the original Arabic ghouls didn't eat corpses, 324 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: they have peers in Asian folk tales that do so. 325 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: In the Tamil mythology of India, they have the shaggy 326 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: haired creatures known as the pay, who sought out human 327 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: battle so as to lap blood from the open wounds 328 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: of the dying um. Still, other ghoules emerge in the 329 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: eighth century. In the eighth century Tibetan Book of the Dead, 330 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: which details the Buddhist journey through death and into the 331 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: realms beyond death via reincarnation. Um Here, in the dream 332 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: like state known as Bardo, the departed soul encounters that 333 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: the the Pisachi ghouls and These are fierce female beings 334 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: with be steel heads and an appetite for bones and viscera. Wow, 335 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: that's interesting. Now, another thing that we see commonly here 336 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: is that in these early visions, the ghouls are very 337 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: often female, like explicitly described as female and appearance, whereas 338 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: the ghouls that I think we think of today tend 339 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: to be either sort of um androgynous, tending toward masculine, 340 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: or or fully male. Yeah. Yeah, I think there is 341 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: a definite tendency to to generate a masculine idea of 342 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: the ghoule in Western culture, though though some of my 343 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: favorite books on the matter have definitely have female ghoules. Now, 344 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: in the conclusion of his article uh al Rawi, he 345 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: says that the ghouls may have been inspired just by, 346 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: you know, things that people actually did encounter in reality, 347 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: like people with various birth defects. Yeah, particularly things like 348 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: cleft palate, cleft lip, distortions of the mouth and in 349 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: facial features you know, which sadly do um can and 350 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: do interfere in our interpretation of of a of an 351 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: individual substance. Yeah, I think this is a common feature 352 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: you see in the origins of monster legends. This is 353 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: often hypothesized that we would just see someone that uh 354 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: that had you know, some kind of atypical way of looking, 355 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: and that we would interpret that as well, you know, 356 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: this person is cursed or evil or there there's something 357 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: wrong with them. They didn't have the light of modern 358 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: medical science to just say no, they're a person like 359 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: anybody else. Yeah, very much in keeping with the changeling 360 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: traditions that you find in Europe. Right that surely that 361 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: this year your actual child was taken away by fair 362 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: is and this is the goblin that's left in in 363 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: its place. Yeah. Now, on top of that, Victorian adventure 364 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: and Middle Eastern scholar and just all around fascinating individual, 365 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton, uh He explained the Arabic 366 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: ghoul as a mythical creature that embodies human fears and 367 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: tapoos concerning graveyards check, desert wastes check and cannibalism and 368 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: specifically survival cannibalism. If we were to tie it into 369 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: other myth cycles that such as the wind to Go, 370 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: that did definitely have such a strong resident place in 371 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: uh in the Native peoples of North America, because it's 372 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: tied with that fear of survival, cannibalism as an a 373 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: as a possible necessity during winters. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I 374 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: can see a very strong sort of theme emerging, which 375 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: is that all of these disparate things are sort of 376 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 1: united by the sense that they're playing on fears of 377 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: the periphery, the edges, the outside, and the taboo as 378 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: as many monsters do. So. As previously mentioned, thousand and 379 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: one Night serves as this cultural bridge, and it's kind 380 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: of a slightly distorted cultural bridge by which Middle Eastern 381 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 1: ghoules migrate into Western fictional traditions. And in addition to 382 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: the above examples, in the original Arabic text, the ghouls 383 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: of thousand and one Nights are also vile tricksters and 384 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: depending on again those translations, they may be flesh eaters. 385 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: They kidnapped victims, They lure lust wulm into their doom 386 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: by taking on the guys of beautiful women. Again, that 387 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: shape shifting motif. Yeah, that's a common thing you see 388 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: in the Arabic stories, is that there's a like a 389 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: female ghoul hanging out by the road and calling men 390 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: to come over and see her. Yeah, and over, come 391 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: over and see me. Sometime in deserts, and of course 392 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: that's a wonderful uh, a classic monster trope that we 393 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: continue to play with today. Um. But then of course 394 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: also sometimes they break into your storerooms and they much 395 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: on your dates, right, I think that's what Mohammed was mentioning. Yeah. 396 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: But some of the key early adapters, if you will, 397 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: to Golden were po Lord Byron and hands Christian Anderson. Yeah, 398 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: they all made mention of ghouls um in the in 399 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century and their writings. What what did Hans 400 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: Christian Anderson write about ghouls? Um? It's just in one 401 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: particular story, and I don't think they play a huge role, 402 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: but they pop up like clearly they were, you know, 403 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: one of the many magical creatures. He was too, and 404 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: they're just in the mix. They're in the cultural mi asthma. Yeah. Yeah, 405 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: so they end up picking him up, playing with him 406 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: to a certain degree, and then you have a new 407 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: generation come along in the twentieth century. Lovecraft of course, 408 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: HP Lovecraft, who we've mentioned other weird fiction authors of 409 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: the day, including Clark Ashton Smith who wrote some wonderful 410 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: ghoul stories. They continue to cultivate gold in a new 411 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: dark form tying it in with some of the the dark, 412 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: weird motifs that are a part of weird fiction. Uh, 413 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: particularly in Lovecraft case, you have Pickman's Model, Ah, yeah, 414 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: which you read correct. Yeah yeah. Robert told me before 415 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: this episode that I should read Pickman's Model, and I did. 416 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: It was very interesting and it's also one of the 417 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: interesting things about it to me is that it is 418 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: different from all these other stories that where we've been 419 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: saying that the ghoul is sort of on the periphery, 420 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: as a scavenger on the outside, trailing behind the camp 421 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: or whatever. In this story, the ghoul emerges as a 422 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: feature of a sort of shadowy meta city, a shadowy 423 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: city within a city that there's a part of the 424 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: city that the narrator is taken to by Pickman, who's 425 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: this creepy artist who draws creepy things or I guess 426 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: paints creepy things, and they go to his house in 427 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: this bizarre part of the city where suddenly there are 428 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: tunnels going back to seemingly maybe back in time to 429 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: Salem and Witchcraft and monstrous things may be emerging from them. 430 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: And it's right there in the heart of Boston in 431 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: that story, right Yeah, it is. There's very much this 432 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: feeling that the gould kind of resides in the city's 433 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: history as well as in its architectural history. So there's 434 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: a there's a sense that the bodies that the ghoules 435 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: feed on, or not even current graves, they're they're kind 436 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: of feasting on the past. So Pigman's model is a 437 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: key work in the Western ghoul and we see here 438 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: that it really gets its clause into our our horror literature. Yeah, 439 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: there are several key scenes describing well describing paintings of 440 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: ghouls eating the dead flesh of human beings and uh. 441 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: And from here this spreads that Lovecraft of Courses is 442 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: hugely influential, and so his idea of Gouldham spreads into 443 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: various works of fantasy and dark fantasy again Clark, Ashton Smith, 444 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: Brian McNaughton, Neil Gaiman more recently. And do you even 445 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 1: see ghouls show up in the Harry Potter series, though 446 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 1: not that convincingly. Now, if we're gonna go with the 447 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: D and D model, what would you what type of 448 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 1: creature would you say, Lord Voldemort is Is he more 449 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: of a lich or he's kind of got some ghoul 450 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: features right than the I feel like he's a he's 451 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: a variation on the lich, you know, like what with 452 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: the whole storing of the soul and the various hork cruxes. Yeah, 453 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: but he has a ghoulish appearance for sure. Yeah. Now 454 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: I was curious. I didn't have time to look this 455 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: up before we recorded, but I just had the thought, Um, 456 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: what about the nasgool in Tolkien? Do you think that 457 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: the ghoul in Nascool meaning the nascoul or the ring 458 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: raiths in the Lord of the Rings and these evil 459 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: spirits who are obsessed with finding the Ring of Power 460 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: and they want to grab it and bring it back 461 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: to their master. Uh. And and I believe word nasgoul 462 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,719 Speaker 1: means ring wraith, and so the ghoul there being some 463 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: kind of evil spirit. I wonder if Tolkien was inspired 464 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: by the Arabic word ghoul there. Well, you know, I'm 465 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: not that much of a Tolkien scholar, so we have 466 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: to have to call out for our listeners to see 467 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: if anybody has any insight on that. But and I 468 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: don't know to what extent he was interested in Arabic 469 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: culture and Arabic languages. I know he was in the 470 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: language and the language, and it seems completely possible that 471 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: he would have been familiar with with these tales, So 472 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: I would if I had to bet on it, I 473 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: would say, yeah, he surely. The nas goal has two 474 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: has its origins in pre Islamic Arabic folklore, and of 475 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: course we continue to see great works of horror and 476 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: other fictions that involved the ghoul. Catlin R. Kiernan has 477 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: a great um has a great novel called Daughter of 478 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: Hounds that deals with ghouls. I'd recommend that he's a 479 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: wonderful old weird Tales short story called Far Below by 480 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: Robert Barbara Johnson, and this involves ghoules in the New 481 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: York subway system. That's a great read if you can 482 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: find a copy, Oh man, that does sound great. Yeah, 483 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: And in comics and TV we see plenty of examples there. 484 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: There's a wonderful episode of Tales from the Crypt called 485 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: Morning Mess that involves UH, a shadowy organization that seems 486 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: to be very interested in in supplying burial for vagrants 487 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: and transients to Guy. But of course there's a ghoulish 488 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: secret at the heart of it. Oh No, Now I 489 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: recall a particular Tales from the Crypt comic segment that 490 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: I read years ago that was about It was about 491 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: a tale of a tragic tale of young lovers and 492 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: the woman dies and she her body is entombed in 493 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: a crypt, and then her lover is locked in the 494 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: mausoleum with her like locked into the crypt, and he 495 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: cannot get out, and he's trying to escape and he can't. 496 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: And then much or the police find him and they 497 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: find that he actually survived in there for a long time, 498 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: and the ominous ending is that they find he died 499 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: of formalde hyde poisoning. Well, that's that's a pretty good one. Yeah, 500 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: I need to go back and read some of these 501 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: old tales from the crypt. I don't have a lot 502 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: of experience with actual comics, but oh I haven't read 503 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: many either. That's a one of That's one a friend 504 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: of mine recommended to me. Excellent to have to look 505 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: that up. So, yeah, we made and we mentioned Dungeon 506 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: and Dragons already that the Gohougles have have a long 507 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: played a role in in in Dungeons and Dragons. They've 508 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: always been in the monster manuals, both Googles and I believe, 509 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: and they also have a like an advanced version of 510 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: the Google called a gas, and then variations on Googles 511 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: that pop up in different add on. So tell me 512 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: just basically, what is your encounter with the ghoul? Look 513 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: like it's just basic sword fodder, Like it's not very 514 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: very tough. The standard Google isn't particularly tough or intelligent. 515 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: The Gas is a little more potent and uh in, 516 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: a little more yeah, and a little tougher to encounter. 517 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: But they're not They're not high end monster encounters, unless, 518 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: of course you're encountering them in significant numbers. But despite 519 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: all this, the Ghoul has never really, as you I 520 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: think eloquently put it in our notes, exploded into the 521 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: main stream, at least not in the way that the 522 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: vampire or the werewolf or or even Frankenstein's creature has. 523 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: You know, we never got the universal monster movie of 524 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: the Ghoul. Yeah, yeah, I mean there have been occasional 525 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: films that I think there was even a Boriscarla film 526 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: titled the Ghoul though, really yeah, but it's not particularly 527 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: and keeping obviously I've never seen it. Yeah, So yeah, 528 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: it's just I guess the Ghoul is not that sexy. 529 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: The Ghoul, the ideas that it represents are maybe maybe 530 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: not as comfortably uh contemplated as that of vampires and werewolves. Well, 531 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: certainly not as sexy. I mean, that's the thing about 532 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: if you go back and watch a bell legosies Dracula, 533 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: it's it's very slick, you know, It's Dracula is kind 534 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: of sexy. He's not gross and monstrous. The ghoul is disgusting, Yeah, 535 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: and I think that's the big reason, but it continues 536 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: to be. It's kind of like one of those bands 537 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: that never really you know, takes off into stupid superstardom, 538 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: but they always have their following, right, So I would 539 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: say that ghouls are kind of like the maybe they're 540 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: the fish of the monster world, right, Like, not everybody's 541 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: gonna have a lot of familiariority with them or be 542 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: able to tell you what their top ten hits are, 543 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: but they have a hardcore following. They're not going away 544 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: even if you know some of the details about them, 545 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: you know, are a little ambiguous. So we've discussed the folkloric, mythological, 546 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: fictional history of the ghoul from ancient pre pre Islamic 547 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: Arabic traditions on up into the latest edition of The 548 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: Dungeons and dragons, monster man. Yeah, but of course, the 549 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: eating of dead flesh is not merely the stuff of fantasy. 550 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a This is not only something 551 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: you commonly see in the natural world. It is a 552 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: standard way of making a living for many organisms. Yeah. 553 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: I mean we've discussed on this show before. In the past, 554 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: we've discussed basic cannibalism as it occurs in nature is 555 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: a very When you strip away all the human complications, 556 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: it makes a certain economic sense. You're just talking about flash, 557 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: you're talking about energy. You're talking about absorbing the energy 558 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: back into a viable being. I think a question we 559 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: should keep in mind throughout the course of this part 560 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: about science is the question of why cannibalism is such 561 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: a taboo among humans. And it's and obviously, I mean, 562 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: it would be quite clear why violent cannibalism is so, 563 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: like you kill somebody and eat their flesh. But I'm 564 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: talking about the kind of cannibalism that, as you just 565 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: alluded to, makes a kind of basic energy economics sense, 566 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: Like your loved one dies and then we say no, no, 567 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: you will not eat their flesh. Right. Well, I feel 568 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: like the big theme here, and we'll discuss another possible 569 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: theme in a minute. But the big one, of course, 570 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: ties right into what we've previously talked about concerning natural 571 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: burial versus uh modern burial traditions, is that we just 572 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: get wrapped up in the idea of that corpse still 573 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: being the person than it was. Yeah. Yeah, So we 574 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: did definitely allude to this in our episode called Human 575 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: Remains Past President in the Future. But there there is 576 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: the idea that we can never fully accept that the 577 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: dead body of the person we loved is not in 578 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: some sense still that person, not in some sense still 579 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: in a way alive, and thus in that way they're 580 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: really among humans at least may not be such a 581 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: thing psychologically as non violent cannibalism. Like if you if 582 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: your cousin dies and you rationally know you're no longer 583 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: hurting him by eating his body, you just can't on 584 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: some level except that you're doing violence to his flesh, 585 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: and it seems like you're doing a harmful thing. Okay, 586 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: So let's go on a journey traveling back down the 587 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: highway of human evolution and human ascension, uh, a road 588 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: that as we travel, what you're gonna see some rather 589 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: ghoulish characters standing along the wayside. I think if we 590 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,479 Speaker 1: look back into early human history, we can see both 591 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: of the major aspects of the goal, both the scavenger 592 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: aspect and the cannibalistic aspect. Okay, so we're gonna travel 593 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: back two point five million years to the dawn of 594 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: the Policetocene epoch and you'll find our austar looked at 595 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: the scene ancestors scrambling to deserve diversify their diets in 596 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: a changing world. Okay, so these are people who are 597 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: They're not living a comfortable existence like us, supported by 598 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: agriculture and supply to stores of food. They're living at 599 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: the edge r at the edge of hunger. They need 600 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: to find food constantly. Yeah and uh. According to the 601 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen paper Humans and Scavengers the Evolution of 602 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: Interactions and Ecosystem Services that's published in the journal Bioscience, 603 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: we're specifically talking about increasing seasonality in uh precipitation in 604 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: the African savannahs, and this is forcing our ostrolepisthosine ancestors 605 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: to diversify again to cope with the developing seasonal bottleneck 606 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: in fruits and other soft plant foods. So it's becoming 607 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: harder to make a living gathering plant matter exactly. So 608 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: you end up with two approaches to responses to this bottleneck. Okay, 609 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: you have some early hominides that turned to seeds and roots. 610 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: They start diversifying in that direction. Uh, the roots are 611 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: going to be available year round. Uh, seeds can be 612 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: uh can be acquired in different seasons as well. That 613 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 1: doesn't sound very good to me. Yeah, well that's what's 614 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,399 Speaker 1: the what this other group decided. And they're the ones 615 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: who decided to try out some of the meat to 616 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: be found on large vertebrate carcasses. But they're not hunting 617 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: because we're not like hunting. Hunting is a is a 618 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: technological advancement, but all aheadn't come along yet. Well, I mean, 619 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: think about all of the deficiencies human human beings have 620 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: as natural hunters, and we don't have uh teeth and 621 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: claws and powerful jaws like a lion or a tiger 622 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: or something like that. We do have smarts and we 623 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: can make tools, but we can't just chase down a 624 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: gazelle and rip it apart the way that these other 625 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: large predators can. And that's what these early meat eaters 626 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: had to do. They had to they had to Wait, 627 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: they had to watch, they had to look for the 628 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: signs they have vultures in the sky, or or the 629 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: movements of known predators or larger known scavengers. Strategic meat acquisition. Yeah, 630 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: find find where they're going and try and either pick 631 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,879 Speaker 1: up the pieces afterwards or try and steal it. Again. 632 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: These are scavengers. Are their whole past is scavenging, and 633 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: so if they're going to start in encompassing meat into 634 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: their diet as well, then they're gonna try to do 635 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: it through scavenging strategies. Yeah. And you can even see 636 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: this in what scientists say about the most ancient human 637 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,399 Speaker 1: tools we've discovered, because what do you think the first 638 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: human tools are. Obviously what would come to your mind 639 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: is hunting tools, right that you think about, like, yeah, yeah, spears, axes, 640 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: stuff like that to kill animals with. Uh. And obviously 641 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: if we do go back to certain periods, we do 642 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: find ancient hunting weapons, but a lot of what you 643 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: find appears to be early tools used for the processing 644 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: of animal carcasses, so not necessarily for the killing, but 645 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: for for processing for like a butchery. Yeah, like very much. 646 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,399 Speaker 1: The idea of finding the body and needing to get 647 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: that narrow out right, trying to get some meat out 648 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: of this uh, this dead large vertebrate. Uh that can 649 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: that you can can sustain you, but you're gonna have 650 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: to use your tools to do it. Yeah, it's a 651 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: smart strategy, and hominids are not the only animal species 652 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,879 Speaker 1: that has ever tried it. But yeah, you you look 653 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: to what the predator has already done, and then you 654 00:37:54,560 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: engage in kolepto parasitism, the stealing parasitism. You you take 655 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: advantage of their work and claim it for your own. Yeah. 656 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: And if you take you to the next level, you 657 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: engage in confrontational scavenging. So this is uh, and this 658 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: is something we still see to this day, uh in 659 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 1: rare instances and and there are these are the kind 660 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: of traditions that you know may not survive too much 661 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: longer in our modern world, But there are Cameroonian villagers 662 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: who continue to steal meat from lion kills to this day. 663 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,959 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a smart strategy that totally makes sense. 664 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: The lion has done the work, and if you can 665 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: bluff your way in just long enough to just to 666 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: scare him a way enough to where you can cut 667 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: off a little bit of a kill and run off 668 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: with it. And then instead of hopefully, instead of coming 669 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 1: after you, they'll just return to their own kill to 670 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: harvest the rest of the meat for themselves. Yeah, you 671 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 1: can bribe the lion with the work it's already done. Yeah, 672 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: bribe it with the work it's already done. Steal just 673 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: enough to where they're not going to miss it, and 674 00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: and come after you. Now, over time, this eventually developed 675 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: into more powerful hunting skills. Right, we develop the technology 676 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,760 Speaker 1: and the strategies and the brain power to not only 677 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 1: drive away the hunters, but to usurp their role as hunters. 678 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: And according to that paper published in the journal Bioscience, quote, 679 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: the close association between human hunters and vertebrate scavengers probably 680 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: played a role in the diversification of cultural services. So 681 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: this is interesting because we're all used to these motifs 682 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: of the the early hunter and gatherer, right, and we 683 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: tend not to think about scavenging too much in that scenario. 684 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: We don't think about the ghoulish history of human ascension 685 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: and the idea that there was a time where we're 686 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: essentially hyenas were essentially vultures. And maybe that's one of 687 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: the reasons that the the the the idea of the 688 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: google still is so repellent because it does mirror our 689 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: own history. Well, there is something that we find inherently 690 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: is tasteful about scavenging as a way of life, right, Like, 691 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: I think that is very common among humans to sort 692 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: of see it as essentially ignoble or unchivalrous, almost like 693 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: it is honorable to hunt and kill your food, you know, 694 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: that's a sort of an admirable struggle. But there's something 695 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: just kind of like gross and unpleasant about scavenging and 696 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: looking through you know, trash piles and dead bodies and 697 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: stories and right it's probably one of the modern ideas 698 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: that it's just you tend to just to treat back like, oh, 699 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: that's a screwed up hillbilly thing to do to eat 700 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: the deer that you hit with your car. But really, 701 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: why Like if you ran over a deer with your 702 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: car and you're into eating deer meat and the problem 703 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: and you have the means to process it, that's still 704 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: a fresh kill. It's just as fresh as the one 705 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: that the dude shot from a deer stand. So why not. Now, 706 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: if we think of these ancient hominids as in a 707 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 1: way very economically conscious, essentially that they are making maximum 708 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: use of what's les and tools they have to get 709 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: energy resources from their environment, and the main way they 710 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: find to do that is scavenging, even maybe kind of 711 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: dangerous and scary forms of scavenging. Did they ever turn 712 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: that scavenging impulse in word? Yeah, that's the big, big question, right, 713 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: because it leads into into concerns about well, how does 714 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,320 Speaker 1: this scavenging creature, this creature that has that has learned 715 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 1: the value of meat, has adapted to survive via meat, 716 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: and then suddenly suddenly it puts new it applies new 717 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: meaning to their own debt. Suddenly, Hey, I could go 718 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: out and I could try and steal this body from 719 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: a lion, but here's a dead member of our own community. 720 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,439 Speaker 1: It's made out of meat. I can eat that meat. 721 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,320 Speaker 1: And it's also worth noting too that eventually, as we 722 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: developed technologies to to better process and cook meat, we're 723 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: better able to deal with some of the disease issues 724 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,320 Speaker 1: that are inherent with scavenging. Right, we reduced some of 725 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: the natural risk. Yeah, but why not why not turned 726 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: to that meat? Especially if I haven't really built up 727 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:07,240 Speaker 1: as much? Uh? You know, human cultural whole taboos regarding 728 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: the consumption of that food. Yeah, and I think some 729 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: scientists think that we did make that leap. Yes. According 730 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: to paleontologist Isabelle Cassaries, our ancestors likely turned to cannibalism 731 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: due to lack of resources and competition for territory at 732 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,359 Speaker 1: critical points and their ascensions. So you basically we're talking 733 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: again about survival cannibalism. You find ways to supplement your 734 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: diet when it gets tough, you can, you can deal 735 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: with you can scavenge for meat. But then what happens 736 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: when that runs low? Bats, when you turn to your 737 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: own dead and you give it a try. Yeah. What 738 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: did ancient hominids and the Donner Party have in common? Yeah, 739 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: they knew what made economic sense. Yeah, and it makes sense. 740 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: We've talked about the economy of cannibalism. It's widespread death 741 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,240 Speaker 1: throughout the animal kingdom, including among human and non human primates. 742 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: Because sure, killing and eating your own kind tends to 743 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: interfere with the long term genetic mission of just reproducing 744 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: and making more of yourself, but it works like a 745 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: charm in terms of short term survival. Nevertheless, as I 746 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: mentioned before, there is this intensely strong taboo against it. 747 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 1: We we just do not feel generally like this is 748 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: an okay thing to do, or at least I can. 749 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: I can speak for myself and say that, no, that 750 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: does not seem like an okay idea. And I think 751 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: to most people seems that way. Yeah, Like, even if 752 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: the sandwich is really good and you're like, oh man, 753 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 1: this is such a good sandwich, in the back of 754 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 1: your mind you're thinking, but this this us to be ron. 755 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,919 Speaker 1: Now I'm eating and ron as a sandwich and really 756 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: messing it up. Oh, he's so savory. But there may 757 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: be reasons for this taboo beyond what we mentioned before. 758 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: So earlier we were talking about the idea that it's 759 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 1: just hard to shake the feeling that the flesh of 760 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: a dead person is not still in some way able 761 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: to be harmed or in somebody still that person. But 762 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: there could possibly be selection pressures that favor a taboo 763 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: against cannibalism, right, yes, And this is this is where 764 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: we end up talking about Kuru disease and all and 765 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: and discussing prions. So what are prions? Well, prions are 766 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 1: abnormal proteins that induce irregular protein folding in brain cells, 767 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: and this construction leads to flawed brain tissue, resulting in 768 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:23,720 Speaker 1: progressive and incurable brain damage. One of the most notable 769 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,320 Speaker 1: examples here, certainly for our purposes in this podcast, is 770 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: Curu disease, which is found in New Guinea among the 771 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: four A people. It's a rare breed of of disorder 772 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,880 Speaker 1: caused by the by this type of prion. Also, it's 773 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: known as the shaking disease what's what kuru means, right, 774 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: and sometimes referred to as the laughing disease because scientists 775 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: observed bits of hysterical laughing among those afflicted. Yeah, and 776 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: so obviously it is a it is a fatal, very 777 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: terrible disease that you do not want to get at all. 778 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: But what scientists observed is that it only really tends 779 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,720 Speaker 1: to have and though it's comparable to some other priorn 780 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,839 Speaker 1: diseases like like c j D, but it only really 781 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 1: seems to happen in the for A tribe of New Guinea. 782 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 1: And this is related to the some of the rituals 783 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: practiced by this tribe of Indo cannibalism, which sort of 784 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,439 Speaker 1: flips the script on cannibalism. Like we've been talking about 785 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,400 Speaker 1: I mean, from our cultural perspective, we've got this taboo 786 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: on cannibalism because we think of it as a kind 787 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: of disrespectful or harmful thing to do to the remains 788 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: of a person. But it's not necessarily thought of by 789 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: everyone in that way. I mean, this is a sort 790 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: of respectful cannibalism. The the the loving incorporation of a 791 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 1: dead loved one's flesh back into your society in the 792 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,839 Speaker 1: form of food. Yeah, taking your dead loved one back 793 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 1: into yourself as food into your body, taking their body 794 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: and spirit into yourself. So it in their beliefs and 795 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: their traditions that the cannibal endo, cannibalism takes on a 796 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 1: form of of beauty. Really. Yeah, So this, in a 797 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: way that might seem strange to a lot of people, 798 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,000 Speaker 1: could be a beautiful way of looking at the consumption 799 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,719 Speaker 1: of human flesh, excepted that it did have this very 800 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,879 Speaker 1: very unfortunate medical consequence of leading to kuru disease. Right 801 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: and doctors first first really focused in on this in 802 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties when curu is popping up among the 803 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,439 Speaker 1: four A tribespeople decimating whole villages, and the scientist quickly 804 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: discovered that the only way to acquire the disease was 805 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: through the consumption of contaminated brain tissue, So they just 806 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,800 Speaker 1: had to shut down the funeral rights, and that is 807 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 1: how they were actually able to to stop the spread 808 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: of Kuru disease among these tribes people. But the obvious 809 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 1: idea here is if it is possible to get an 810 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: extremely dangerous fatal disease by consuming in this case, I 811 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: believe the brain tissue of your dead loved ones, but 812 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: possibly there could be other cases where consuming the dead 813 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: tissue of human being is a disease threat. Would there 814 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: eventually be an evolutionary selection pressure against cannibalism, Well, would 815 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: there be enough of a pressure that that is an 816 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: argument is often made. However, I did find us some 817 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,560 Speaker 1: work by a medical researcher, Michael Alper's, and he points 818 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,480 Speaker 1: out that the widespread presence of genes protecting against Prian 819 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,800 Speaker 1: disease suggests that human endo cannibalism was fairly common for 820 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: thousands of years. So we see the genetic legacy of 821 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:35,879 Speaker 1: continuous indo cannibalism, the continuous consumption of human debt enough 822 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: to where we build up a certain amount of resistance 823 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,440 Speaker 1: to these prior on, So, why do we need a 824 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 1: gene for indo cannibalism taboo? If we can just have 825 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: a gene for indo cannibalism, I don't know, shield that 826 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 1: makes it safe. It's basically like finding a cannibalism cookbook 827 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: in your on your friends bookshelf. Yeah, and then confining 828 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: when you have this if you didn't right right, like 829 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,880 Speaker 1: clearly clearly that we know what the secret ingredient is 830 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: in the meat loaf. Now, so it seems like there 831 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,320 Speaker 1: are some lines of evidence indicating that in the past 832 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,840 Speaker 1: humans were eating some some some grave flesh. Yeah, that 833 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: I believe so based on the research material we were 834 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,120 Speaker 1: looking at. Scavenging, just scavenging for debt meat is a 835 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: part of our evolutionary history, and so is the consumption 836 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,160 Speaker 1: of our own debt. And therefore the the idea of 837 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 1: the graveyard ghougle is very much a dark reflection of 838 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: if not who we are today, then at least of 839 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 1: who we have been as a species in the past. 840 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,439 Speaker 1: The scavenger. Yes, so I think about that. The next 841 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: time you you see an episode of I don't know, Supernatural, 842 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,560 Speaker 1: I think sometimes as ghouls, or you watch an Old 843 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,360 Speaker 1: Tales from the Crypts episode, or read some delightful fiction 844 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,839 Speaker 1: that involves the Google death. Well, Unfortunately, as I said 845 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 1: at the beginning, I think this episode is going to 846 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,919 Speaker 1: have to conclude our October lineup of creepy and mons 847 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,840 Speaker 1: stress content. But please keep listening because even after October, 848 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: we will continue to serve up to all of you 849 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 1: intellectual scavengers some tasty and sometimes forbidden morsels. Indeed, and 850 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: in the meantime, be sure to check out Stuff to 851 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership. That's where 852 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,280 Speaker 1: you'll find all the podcast episodes. You'll find videos, including 853 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 1: a new monster Science episodes that have been going up. 854 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 1: You'll find blog posts as well as links out to 855 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: our social media accounts uh such as Facebook and Twitter. 856 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,000 Speaker 1: We'll blow the Mind on both of those, and we 857 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 1: are Stuff to Blow your Mind on tumbler. And if 858 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,360 Speaker 1: you want to write to us and let us know 859 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: your favorite appearance of ghouls in literature or your favorite 860 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:41,120 Speaker 1: scientific fact about scavenging or cannibalism or any other eating 861 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: of corpse flesh, you can email us at blow the 862 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:50,040 Speaker 1: Mind at how Stuff Works at dot com for more 863 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,720 Speaker 1: on miss and baths of other topics visit how stuff 864 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:53,399 Speaker 1: works dot com,