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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column

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Speaker 1: for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

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Speaker 3: I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this

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Speaker 3: is deo Therapists. There's an old real estate adage that

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Speaker 3: goes location, location.

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Speaker 1: Location, This week we'll talk about how that applies in

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Speaker 1: a marriage.

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Speaker 4: We were both were very close to our families, but

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Speaker 4: we kind of thought we would figure.

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Speaker 5: This out later.

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Speaker 6: It's helped me realize so much that where you are

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Speaker 6: located matters for future planning.

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Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.

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Speaker 7: Hey, just a note before we start.

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute

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Speaker 1: medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 1: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

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Speaker 1: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions

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Speaker 1: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 1: and or clarity. Hi Laurie, Hey Guy, So what do

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Speaker 1: we have in our box this week?

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Speaker 3: We actually have a letter from a couple. Ooh, yes,

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Speaker 3: I know right. Here's how it goes, Dear Laurie and Guy.

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Speaker 3: My wife and I have had ten years of a

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Speaker 3: mostly happy marriage and have two wonderful boys, ages seven

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Speaker 3: and four. We met in the Washington, DC area, away

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Speaker 3: from our families, mine in Nebraska, hers on Long Island.

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Speaker 3: Five years ago, her father received a terminal cancer diagnosis,

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Speaker 3: so in early twenty seventeen we decided to move to

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Speaker 3: Long Island to be with him. We had nine good

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Speaker 3: months with him before he succumbed to cancer on January one,

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen. After the sad year of first we discussed

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Speaker 3: where to buy a home. I preferred Omaha, when my

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Speaker 3: parents live along with my three sisters and their five children.

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Speaker 3: Our kids genuinely love their cousins and have so much

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Speaker 3: fun with them. My wife wanted to live near her

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Speaker 3: mother and has no desire to live in them at West.

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Speaker 3: I shared her concern for her mother, but I'm not

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Speaker 3: okay making our family's decision solely for her mother's benefit.

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Speaker 3: After two rounds of marriage counseling, we decided last summer

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Speaker 3: that I would look for a location oriented job, which

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Speaker 3: I ultimately found in Omaha. Unhappily, she agreed to move

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Speaker 3: to Omaha for a couple of years. We agreed to

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Speaker 3: check in every year and after two or three years

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Speaker 3: determine where we should settle in and raise our kids.

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Speaker 3: A big part of the agreement was that her job

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Speaker 3: would take her back to New York regularly and we

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Speaker 3: would take other trips there as well, But COVID nineteen

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Speaker 3: has wrecked that plan. Now, whenever we talk about big

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Speaker 3: picture geography decisions, we end up in serious arguments and

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Speaker 3: make no progress. How can we figure out where to

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Speaker 3: live long term without it being a win lose situation?

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Speaker 1: That is a tough one because what they want from

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Speaker 1: us is a solution.

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Speaker 7: They want us to arbitrate and tell them what to do.

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Speaker 1: And I think in these situations when couples come in,

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Speaker 1: what we can do is help them learn to talk

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Speaker 1: about this differently and how it ends up being in

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Speaker 1: this you win, I lose, or I win you lose

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Speaker 1: kind of situation for them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, all right? Two rounds of couples therapy. Good,

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Speaker 3: I'm always good with that. But what did they get

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Speaker 3: out of it? Was it really focused entirely on this dilemma?

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Speaker 3: Did they learn anything from the couple's therapy? Maybe there

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Speaker 3: are the issues there.

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Speaker 1: The thing about couple's therapy is that so many times

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Speaker 1: somebody feels like they're getting the therapist on their side.

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Speaker 1: So did somebody feel like, Okay, the therapist took my

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Speaker 1: side and now this isn't working, so we're going to

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Speaker 1: go to another therapist. The other thing that you mentioned

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Speaker 1: was is there something else that this argument is standing

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Speaker 1: in for? So sometimes a couple comes in and there's

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Speaker 1: some kind of problem that they're coming in with. But

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Speaker 1: as therapists, we listen for the music under the lyrics.

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Speaker 1: The lyrics are we have this geographic problem, we are

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Speaker 1: stuck and we can't get out of it. But is

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Speaker 1: there something else in the marriage that they aren't talking about?

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Speaker 3: And sometimes when you deal with an issue for a

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Speaker 3: long time and meanwhile they've had kids and all these

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Speaker 3: things have happened, So sometimes you just get entrenched in

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Speaker 3: your old position and you haven't adapted it for new

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Speaker 3: realities or for new evolution. Of dynamics between the two people,

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Speaker 3: like what should have changed a little bit?

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Speaker 1: I think that they're looking at this through a lens

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Speaker 1: that doesn't work for this kind of problem where they

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Speaker 1: feel like the way that we compromise is like everything

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Speaker 1: is fifty to fifty. We do half of this for you,

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Speaker 1: will live here for me, and then we'll go for

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Speaker 1: these years and live here for you. But sometimes fifty

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Speaker 1: to fifty doesn't mean that you literally split that one

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Speaker 1: issue down the middle. And so what other areas in

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Speaker 1: their marriage, if any, do they feel that there's a

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Speaker 1: disequilibrium and how have they handled that right?

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Speaker 3: The other question is for whom are they making this decision?

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Speaker 3: Is it for each of them? Is it what's best

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Speaker 3: for the kids? We know that she's considering her mother

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Speaker 3: and what would be best for her. He's considering his

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Speaker 3: family as well. But in the ranking, there whose priorities,

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Speaker 3: whose needs are central to them?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: Do you know that exercise?

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Speaker 1: The paper exercise where you give a couple a piece

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Speaker 1: of paper and they hold it between them and they

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Speaker 1: have to decide who's going to get to keep the

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Speaker 1: paper basically, and so the paper represents something that each

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Speaker 1: person respectively really wants. It tells you a lot about

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Speaker 1: how they relate to each other unrelated to the specific

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Speaker 1: issue at hand.

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Speaker 3: I always look around for props when I'm doing couples work.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I'll grab an eraser and I'll passe it to

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Speaker 3: the so they can erase something they said if they

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Speaker 3: feel it was the wrong thing to say in the

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Speaker 3: first go round. In other words, in couples therapy, perhaps

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Speaker 3: are great.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: after a quick break.

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Speaker 3: This is Dear Therapists. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 7: Should we go talk to them?

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Speaker 3: Yes, let's do that.

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Speaker 1: Well, Hi, guys, thanks so much for coming on.

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Speaker 5: Hey, thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you.

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Speaker 3: You're very welcome. And I guess my first question is

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Speaker 3: you mentioned that you've had two rounds of couples therapy.

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Speaker 3: Could you tell us just a little bit about those

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Speaker 3: rounds and what you get out of them.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: So they were both in New York when we were

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Speaker 6: working through this, and they were focused on this issue

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Speaker 6: of geography, and we talked through a lot of different

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Speaker 6: things and honestly didn't get anywhere.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: The first time we went was just six months after

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Speaker 4: my dad passed away, and that therapist after about four

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Speaker 4: or five sessions, and you need to stop coming here

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Speaker 4: because you shouldn't make any major life decisions within a

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Speaker 4: first year of a major loss. So we stopped and

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Speaker 4: then we picked it up again. So I think it

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Speaker 4: gave us time to breathe, which was really helpful.

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Speaker 1: So in that time when you had the time to breathe,

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Speaker 1: was that kind of looming between the two of you

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Speaker 1: or were you able to put it aside knowing that

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Speaker 1: you would come back to it.

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Speaker 4: It was day by day or a week by week.

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Speaker 4: I mean it varied because we had you know, things

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Speaker 4: would come up. People would say to us, Oh, we

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Speaker 4: wish you would just move back to DC. This house

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Speaker 4: came up for sale, just come back. Or one of

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Speaker 4: his sisters would send us a house for sale in

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Speaker 4: Omaha and we'd.

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Speaker 3: Be like, god, damn it.

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Speaker 5: So always kind of there.

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Speaker 6: And also, you know, on a day to day basis,

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Speaker 6: we were good, no problem, happy activities. But so much

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Speaker 6: of life is looking towards the future, especially with young kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes it really hard to plan.

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Speaker 6: That's oh, our kids will go through elementary school together.

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Speaker 6: That's a five or six year commitment. Oh, here's where

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Speaker 6: you'd go. What about if we plan this for next summer,

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Speaker 6: where would we drive or fly from?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 6: I mean it helped me realize so much that where

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Speaker 6: you are located matters for future planning.

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Speaker 7: And so when you first got married, you moved to DC.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 5: We were in DC when we met, right, Okay.

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Speaker 1: And so did you imagine that that would be your

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Speaker 1: community and that's where you would put down roots when

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Speaker 1: you got married?

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Speaker 5: Not really?

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Speaker 4: DC is so transient if you know people who live there.

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Speaker 4: Most people aren't from there, I think because of politics

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Speaker 4: and the Hill. We had so many friends who struggled

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Speaker 4: with the exact same thing, and we both were very

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Speaker 4: close to our families, but we kind of thought we

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Speaker 4: would figure this out later.

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Speaker 1: So before you got married, you never explicitly had a

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Speaker 1: conversation about the fact that a you would probably leave

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Speaker 1: DC and be where that might be or what that

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Speaker 1: might look like.

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Speaker 4: We talked about it a bit. I think I said

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Speaker 4: many times I never want to live in Omaha.

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Speaker 6: Ever, and I said, I'd never want to live in

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Speaker 6: New York.

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Speaker 3: And then you got.

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Speaker 6: And you know, I mean it was also in the

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Speaker 6: early dating phase, it was like, oh, that sounds interesting,

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Speaker 6: and in our early to mid twenties it felt so

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Speaker 6: far away and it was like, well, we're just going

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Speaker 6: to live through this year and the ten years from

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Speaker 6: now whatever.

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Speaker 5: We'll figure it out at that point.

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Speaker 3: So let me ask you something you've It sounds like

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Speaker 3: you've had this discussion innumerable times, So what happens these days?

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Speaker 3: What does that discussion even look like?

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Speaker 4: I think it changed a little bit with I've always

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Speaker 4: had a job that I could take anywhere with.

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Speaker 3: Me and.

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Speaker 4: Ryan was suddenly unhappy on his job and it was

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Speaker 4: a bit more of the ball was in his court,

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Speaker 4: and that kind of changed things. I would say when

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Speaker 4: it felt like this isn't just where we want to live,

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Speaker 4: this is also career driven to Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So how did it come about that you got this

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Speaker 3: job in Omaha? We are you on? Now? Was that

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Speaker 3: a negotiated thing?

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Speaker 6: My role was becoming less valuable, less fulfilling, and so

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Speaker 6: I was starting to look and we said, okay, how

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Speaker 6: about if you look for jobs and maybe that'll help

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Speaker 6: push us one way or another. So I looked for

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Speaker 6: four months and applied for jobs in New York and

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Speaker 6: in Omaha and eventually got.

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Speaker 1: This offer, and was that a result of the conversations

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Speaker 1: in your second round of couple's therapy. So the first

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Speaker 1: round of couple's therapy, the therapist said, you're still grieving.

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Speaker 1: It might not be a good time to make a

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Speaker 1: big life decision. Second round, what did the conversations look like?

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Speaker 4: One of you is going to have to make the

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Speaker 4: sacrifice and have to figure out how to not resent

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Speaker 4: the other person. She was kind of, this is really hard. Yep, yep,

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Speaker 4: there's no compelling event here. She didn't give us a

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Speaker 4: lot of hope.

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Speaker 3: Now that's what I asked earlier about whether the job

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Speaker 3: in Omaha was the result of negotiation assorts. Ryan kind of,

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Speaker 3: mum hmm, and you kind of didn't, you know. Your

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Speaker 3: face was like, ah really, so can you actually tell

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Speaker 3: me what was behind that facial responsive yours?

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Speaker 4: We said that it would be great to have a

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Speaker 4: compelling event. We have different opinions about this, but I

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Speaker 4: think I'm right the vigor the effort he put into

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Speaker 4: searching for jobs in the two locations was not the same,

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Speaker 4: and it was I think you were checking boxes for

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Speaker 4: the East coast, but you were much more.

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Speaker 7: Pro active Romaha because that's what you wanted, and.

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Speaker 4: That kind of I felt like when the decision came,

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Speaker 4: when like you flew out for the interview and then

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Speaker 4: you got the offer. My take on it at the

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Speaker 4: time was I was kind of forced.

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Speaker 5: Into a position.

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Speaker 7: We did not communicate well about this at all.

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Speaker 5: We were garbage at communicating this.

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Speaker 4: Like and people have asked us, how did you make

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Speaker 4: this decision, and we said, we could tell you how

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Speaker 4: not to make this decision. So, yeah, he got the offer.

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Speaker 4: He was excited. I didn't know how to say, no, yeah,

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Speaker 4: here we are.

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Speaker 1: It sounds so much like you want someone or some

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Speaker 1: external event to make this decision for you instead of

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Speaker 1: working through this as a couple. And that's what makes

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Speaker 1: it hard. It's almost like you knew that there was

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Speaker 1: this difference before you got married.

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Speaker 7: Maybe an equivalent would be.

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Speaker 1: A couple who one person says they don't think they

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Speaker 1: want kids, the other person says they think they do

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Speaker 1: want kids, but oh, we'll work it out later. We

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Speaker 1: love each other and we'll figure it out. We're in

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Speaker 1: our two early twenties and we'll see exactly.

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Speaker 6: And neither of us had interest in moving back at

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Speaker 6: the time, Like we just left home, like, this is fun.

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Speaker 6: We're doing all sorts of fun things, playing softball on

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Speaker 6: the National Mall.

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Speaker 5: This is an awesome time, right.

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Speaker 1: And so what happens is these things are in the background,

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Speaker 1: it's in the air. You can't take it away because

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Speaker 1: it is a big life.

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Speaker 7: Event, whether it's having a baby or where you're going

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Speaker 7: to live.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that when you feel frustrated that

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Speaker 1: there's no person out there who's going to help you

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Speaker 1: arbitrate this, or that there's no event that's going to say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we had to move here, because clearly it was the

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Speaker 1: only choice.

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Speaker 7: What you're left.

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Speaker 1: With is the really hard work of saying we are

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Speaker 1: going to have to work through a fundamental difference between

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Speaker 1: us as a couple, and it's not going to be perfect.

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Speaker 6: Yes, I would say we tried that and attempted that

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Speaker 6: for a long while. But we would talk about principles.

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Speaker 6: We would talk about what's most important for us, and

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Speaker 6: it often came back to having family around. With our

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Speaker 6: kids growing up, we wanted them to be around their grandparents,

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Speaker 6: we wanted them to be around other family members, and

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Speaker 6: so we agreed on that.

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Speaker 5: It just we differed on which set.

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Speaker 3: So how long was that second couple's therapy A couple

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Speaker 3: of months? Two three months? Yeah, yeah, two three months.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask you each to maybe mention if you

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Speaker 3: can tell me, if you can't, one thing you learned

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Speaker 3: from the other person about their feedings or needs about

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Speaker 3: this as a result of those few months of discussion.

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Speaker 3: This is where I played the Jeopardy theme song.

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Speaker 7: It feels like forever ago.

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Speaker 6: I don't know if it was the first or the

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Speaker 6: second or what, but the level of importance that she

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Speaker 6: and I would say each of us put on being

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Speaker 6: near family. After the first eight years of our relationship,

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Speaker 6: we had no family around, and the fact that all

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Speaker 6: of a sudden that was like a number one primary

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Speaker 6: desire was a little bit surprising, I guess, so that

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Speaker 6: would probably be my take.

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Speaker 4: I think I learned how much you really didn't want

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Speaker 4: to live in New York. I think I thought you

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Speaker 4: were trying to like it and like the people and

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Speaker 4: like everything, but you.

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Speaker 7: Were really just over it and wanted to get out

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Speaker 7: of there.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if that's true.

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Speaker 1: When you guys have had other disagreements that are fundamental

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Speaker 1: in this way, but where the stakes aren't just high,

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Speaker 1: how do you tend to negotiate them.

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Speaker 5: We haven't had too many things.

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Speaker 6: Like, we're pretty dominated in our lives for the last

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Speaker 6: few years.

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Speaker 5: Everything else is a breeze.

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Speaker 1: Right, So when you say that that's dominated your lives.

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Speaker 1: Couples have disagreements all the time, right, And there are

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Speaker 1: quite a few, by the way, in even very strong marriages.

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Speaker 1: And so when something dominates the air in the marriage

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Speaker 1: like this has, sometimes it means that there are other

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Speaker 1: things that maybe you're not talking about, because sometimes people

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Speaker 1: are free to disagree on maybe the more tender things.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, when we were in New York and we would

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Speaker 6: come upon disagreements, I would find that Beth was a

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Speaker 6: lot more accommodating to what I wanted. I think that

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Speaker 6: since we have moved here that I have tried to

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Speaker 6: be far more willing to accommodate and to meet Beth

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Speaker 6: where she wants to be. If we have a conflict,

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Speaker 6: say like I right now, I got the big one,

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Speaker 6: and so I will be super accommodating and help her

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Speaker 6: out to feel better, to go with what she wants.

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Speaker 7: To make her feel better, or to alleviate your guilt.

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Speaker 6: Probably this ladder, Yeah, but hopefully also the first.

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Speaker 3: Beth, do you agree that he's been flexible in that

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Speaker 3: way that those efforts are clear and noted to you.

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Speaker 5: I think we've gotten there in a couple of things.

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Speaker 4: I think, most recently the whole plan for the summer.

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Speaker 5: It took longer for you to get there than I

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Speaker 5: wanted you to.

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Speaker 4: But I think it was disheartening at first that it

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Speaker 4: took you longer to kind of be supportive of what

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Speaker 4: we needed to do to make this summer happen.

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Speaker 1: Ryan, What is it like for you when you know

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Speaker 1: that you've disappointed Beth?

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Speaker 6: It sucks, doesn't feel good. I try every day to

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Speaker 6: not disappoint her. I try and find small ways to

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Speaker 6: I exceede our expectations. This is all even harder in

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Speaker 6: the midst of a pandemic, where you kind of just

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Speaker 6: stay home all the time, making friends in a new place,

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Speaker 6: for example.

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Speaker 1: But let me just interapt for a second, because I

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Speaker 1: want to go back to the question I want to

380
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Speaker 1: help you stay on it, which is, what does it

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Speaker 1: actually feel like what happens inside of you when you

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Speaker 1: disappoint Beth.

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Speaker 6: I feel guilty, and I feel inadequate, and I need

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Speaker 6: to find a way to make things better. And help

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Speaker 6: her feel better.

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Speaker 7: So it's hard to tolerate her disappointment.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what about you, Beth? What is it like for

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Speaker 1: you when you disappoint Ryan?

390
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Speaker 4: Anxious like I'm not living up to my part in

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Speaker 4: this marriage, Like I screwed up.

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Speaker 5: I need to fix this.

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Speaker 4: I want to fix this.

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Speaker 3: How can I fix this? The thing that strikes me

395
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Speaker 3: is that between your time and your yoke, and now

396
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Speaker 3: you've had some time in Omaha, then you have each

397
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 3: had the experience of living where the other one wants

398
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Speaker 3: to live, having to compromise, and seeing that the other

399
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 3: person is trying to be as flexible as possible to

400
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Speaker 3: kind of equal things out in a way. How much

401
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Speaker 3: does that make you more optimistic or not that you

402
00:21:27,439 --> 00:21:31,039
Speaker 3: will be able to make the marriage work with this issue,

403
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,439
Speaker 3: which is the same issue that you've just trained for.

404
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 5: I think the.

405
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 6: Potential breaking point was a year ago, and I didn't

406
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,759
Speaker 6: know how we would get through that. But ultimately she

407
00:21:46,879 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 6: agreed to keep our family together, agreed to move, and

408
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 6: showed me a depth of love that I feel grateful for.

409
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Speaker 6: We've committed to being here for a couple of years

410
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Speaker 6: and then we'll figure it out. Sound familiar, so I

411
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Speaker 6: feel confident about working through this in the future.

412
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Speaker 3: And Beth, yeah, I agree.

413
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Speaker 4: I went to counseling for myself up between August and

414
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Speaker 4: when we moved right November, and that helped me work

415
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Speaker 4: through a lot in terms of getting to acceptance of

416
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Speaker 4: everything and having a person I could talk to, because

417
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Speaker 4: you can imagine, we have very few people we can

418
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Speaker 4: talk to about this because people have very strong opinions,

419
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Speaker 4: and besides, this is not something I could talk about

420
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Speaker 4: with my family.

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Speaker 3: So I.

422
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Speaker 4: Like how you framed that, Like I am no longer

423
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Speaker 4: worried about the longevity of.

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Speaker 5: Our marriage as I was six months to a year ago.

425
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Speaker 3: That's true.

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Speaker 1: It's great that you guys feel so committed even in

427
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Speaker 1: the face of some kind of life disagreement like this.

428
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Speaker 1: I was wondering if you guys would try a little

429
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 1: exercise for us. Can you get a blank piece of paper.

430
00:23:05,439 --> 00:23:07,479
Speaker 1: Here's what we're going to ask you to do. The

431
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 1: paper represents for each of you. You not this issue

432
00:23:11,399 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 1: nothing to do with geography, represent something that is very

433
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Speaker 1: important to you. Don't tell the other person what that

434
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Speaker 1: thing is that matters so much to you. And then

435
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: I want you each to take one side of the paper.

436
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: So one of you put one hand on one side

437
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 1: of the paper, the other like, hold it.

438
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 5: No, hold the paper.

439
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 7: There you go.

440
00:23:29,879 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: Okay, perfect, Okay, Now you have sixty seconds to negotiate

441
00:23:34,879 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: who gets to keep the paper?

442
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 7: Okay.

443
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: So it represents something that matters very much to each

444
00:23:41,399 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: of you. It's a different thing for each of you,

445
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: and you have sixty seconds to negotiate who gets to

446
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: keep the paper.

447
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 3: And right now there's no movement on the paper whatsoever.

448
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 3: It's very typical lot of discussion, but the paper is

449
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 3: not moving.

450
00:24:03,879 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 7: Well, we'll see.

451
00:24:04,399 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 1: Sometimes what happens is nothing happens, and then they realize

452
00:24:06,919 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: they have ten seconds left, and then somebody just says, okay,

453
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 1: you have it.

454
00:24:11,159 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 3: Now. It's sort of a minute and ten seconds it

455
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 3: has been, and they're still tooking.

456
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: Let's give them just a few more seconds. I just

457
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: want to hear what they're saying.

458
00:24:19,159 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 4: My thing is fundamental to who I am.

459
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 8: In some ways liked about how I got to who

460
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 8: I am today and represents my past, present, present, in

461
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 8: the future. Gotcha, can you tell me something like that about.

462
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 6: Uh, it's something of how I want to live my

463
00:24:41,399 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 6: life into the future.

464
00:24:43,399 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 5: I'd probably get to giving it up.

465
00:24:47,879 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 9: Okay, how about you? What if you had to get

466
00:24:50,560 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 9: that up, I would be yeah.

467
00:25:00,679 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: So what was it like for you guys to try

468
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: to negotiate there? What did it feel like when you

469
00:25:04,919 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: had that paper between you?

470
00:25:07,639 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 4: It was important for me to hear why this thing

471
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 4: mattered to him, but he also kind of gave an

472
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 4: example of why at the end of the day he

473
00:25:16,919 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 4: could give up this thing like you kind of offered

474
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 4: it up, but also said, but I wouldn't be crushed.

475
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 5: This is critically important to me.

476
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 6: But I said, if there were other offsetting things, then

477
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 6: I could probably end up because of her description that

478
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 6: it was inherent to her who she has been, is

479
00:25:34,919 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 6: and will be in the future.

480
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: For you, Ryan, you ultimately said this is important to me,

481
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: but I could give this up. And what Beth said

482
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 1: was I would be devastated to give this up. And

483
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,759
Speaker 1: I know this was all theoretical because it was a

484
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: blank sheet of eight x ten paper and.

485
00:25:57,439 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 7: It was not where you're living.

486
00:26:00,399 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: But it does I think get to something deeper that's

487
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: going on, which if it translates at all, is that

488
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,519
Speaker 1: for not living near her mom and not having the

489
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: kids have that grandparent relationship on some level, even if

490
00:26:18,159 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 1: she's ultimately going to be okay in Omaha, there's a

491
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: part of it that feels very devastating to her. And

492
00:26:25,639 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: she's nodding and tearing up right now.

493
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:29,959
Speaker 5: Yep, yep.

494
00:26:31,679 --> 00:26:32,279
Speaker 7: Yeah.

495
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you guys have really talked

496
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: about it like that, because you both try so hard

497
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,719
Speaker 1: to accommodate the other and really be careful with the

498
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: other person. But I think sometimes it might be hard

499
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: to really talk about what's going on at your core

500
00:26:47,399 --> 00:26:50,519
Speaker 1: around this. And so when Beth said that, it was

501
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: so moving in that moment, she said, this would be

502
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: devastating for me. It would mean that you don't understand

503
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 1: who I am. And Ryan, I wonder what that's like

504
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 1: to hear that.

505
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,759
Speaker 6: Hearing her say this is a core part of me

506
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,519
Speaker 6: and that it would devastating to give it up. My

507
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 6: reaction is, Okay, how do we make sure that that happens,

508
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 6: and how do we make sure.

509
00:27:17,439 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 5: That this is always true?

510
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 6: Whatever this is, I am inclined to give up something

511
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 6: that I find extremely important in my life to help

512
00:27:28,879 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 6: us Beth feel comfortable with who she is and in

513
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 6: our marriage.

514
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 5: Can we now guess what the thing is, well.

515
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: I think what's important is just to notice that you

516
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: are really talking about this issue too. Couples always have

517
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: competing needs in some way or another, and so this

518
00:27:48,159 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: paper exercise is really about what do you do when

519
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: you have competing needs and how do you talk about

520
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: that with each other. When the paper is there, it's

521
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 1: a lot easier to really talk about the deeper feelings

522
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: because you're not so focused on Omaha, New York. And

523
00:28:04,879 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: so I really would pay attention to what just happened there,

524
00:28:08,439 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: not that it's not that that is going to give

525
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: you your decision, because I know you guys really want

526
00:28:13,679 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: to come to a decision. But what we can offer

527
00:28:15,679 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: you is to understand how to have a conversation about that.

528
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: That's different from the five hundred million other conversations that

529
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: you've had about this over X number of years.

530
00:28:27,399 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: And I also want to point out that you each

531
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,239
Speaker 3: basically started by naming the stakes, right. He said, well,

532
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 3: this is really core for me, This is really important

533
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 3: for me. So then Bethe, you said, well, now this

534
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 3: goes to the core of who I am. You know,

535
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: to raise the stakes, so it's even more important for me.

536
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 3: You At that point, she had trumped you with No,

537
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 3: it's not just the core, it's the definition of who

538
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 3: I am. The stakes seemed higher, so you're like, okay,

539
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: if the stakes are that, I think it's probably a

540
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 3: tendency you have in the geography discussion to talk about

541
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 3: the stakes, to talk about but this is so important

542
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 3: for me, this is so No, this is even more important. No,

543
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 3: it's so so, so important for me. And then if

544
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: we had enough so so so's before the importance you win.

545
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 3: And the bottom line of it was that we've done

546
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,759
Speaker 3: this exercise with a lot of people. Usually the paper

547
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: ends up in someone's hand. It did not. You are

548
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 3: both holding on to it. In other words, the time

549
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: ran out. And it's a metaphor as to what happens

550
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: in geography decision that in your discussion you get so

551
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: stalled on that that then life intervenes and makes a

552
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 3: decision for you, whether it's your dad getting sick, whether

553
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 3: it's you finding the job, even if the efforts were

554
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: upsided and towards omaha, whatever. The thing is, you get

555
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,959
Speaker 3: so locked into your stakes discussion that you don't get

556
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 3: to make a decision, and then one is made for you.

557
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 4: I think that's really fair.

558
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: Yeahah, yeah, And the thing about that is the more

559
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 1: you kind of kick the can down the road. You

560
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: guys are talking about this question of where are we

561
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,999
Speaker 1: going to raise our kids. This could go on so

562
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: long that your kids are in college and they've already

563
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:06,519
Speaker 1: been raised.

564
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 5: We've talked about that.

565
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: Right now, at a certain point, none of you are

566
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: going to have that sense of rootedness, that sense of community,

567
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: that sense of these are our friends, this is our community,

568
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: these are the people we raised our kids with, this

569
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: was our home. To keep doing this, it will feel

570
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: like you're always in flux and that you don't really

571
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: belong anywhere.

572
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: Yep.

573
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, that resonates a lot.

574
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 8: Yeah.

575
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 10: Yeah.

576
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 4: And our kids have even said, our older has uneven said, well, mommy,

577
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 4: when we move in two years and it's like the

578
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 4: next house, that house we live and blah blah blah, Like,

579
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 4: oh my god, you're six and that's.

580
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 5: Not how we grew up.

581
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 4: My mom still lives in the house I lived and

582
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 4: since I was five, and you're in the house that

583
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 4: you were born in.

584
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 5: So it's like the So going back to.

585
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,239
Speaker 1: That having a baby metaphor, it's like when people can't

586
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: decide should we have a baby. Sometimes by not deciding,

587
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: you're actually deciding. So not choosing something is an act

588
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: of choosing. Let's say we can't decide if we want

589
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: to have a baby. Eventually the person gets too old

590
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: and you can't have a baby. So you actually made

591
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,759
Speaker 1: a choice. It didn't just happen to you. And I

592
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: think what's happening here a bit is that by not deciding,

593
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: you're deciding here you are in Omaha.

594
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 7: You can keep talking about it, but you're an Omaha.

595
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

596
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 3: The other aspect of that that's problematic is that this

597
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,479
Speaker 3: is not just kicking the can down the road. This

598
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 3: is keeping a big, fundamental disagreement hovering over you your

599
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,759
Speaker 3: entire time. And this is a real stressful thing for

600
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 3: a couple to know that hovering over them is a

601
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 3: huge contentious point of disagreement they have not been able

602
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 3: to resolve yet, and that it's looming. And what you're

603
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,519
Speaker 3: saying is we're going to have that same quote unquote

604
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 3: breaking point you mentioned that happened last summer. You're signing

605
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: up for again next year or an year and a half,

606
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,759
Speaker 3: whenever that NEXTX decision gets made. And part of my

607
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 3: concern of where this is going with the two of

608
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 3: you is that because the way you discuss it is

609
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: by elevating the stakes. Just like with the paper, it

610
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: came from core issues to core identity. It was so big.

611
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 3: That's the main problem of why you're having trouble resolving this.

612
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 5: Right.

613
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,519
Speaker 1: The longer this goes on, the more backed into a

614
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: corner each of you gets, it doesn't.

615
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 7: Make you come closer to each other.

616
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: It makes you sort of back into your positions even

617
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: more rigidly. So you know, we're thinking about what we've

618
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: learned about you today and we have two part advice

619
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: for you to try. The first piece of advice is

620
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: I think that we've used the word resentful a lot,

621
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: and I think that's probably come up in your private

622
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: conversations as well. And what happens when we talk about

623
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: resentment is that it comes from a place of anger

624
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: and you against me, and I think what you're really

625
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: feeling underneath, or we get to kind of the more

626
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: tender feelings is loss and grief that if you were

627
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: to live in the place that is not your ideal place,

628
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: that you have some loss around what that life would

629
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: be like for you and your kids if you had

630
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: lived there and when you think about it in terms

631
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: of loss or grief, it tames the anger of it.

632
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: What is it like to lose this version of life

633
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: even though you get a different version of life that

634
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: could be equally good but different.

635
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 7: So the first part.

636
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: Of the exercise is for each of you to write

637
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: down to just kind of journal, free form, separately about

638
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,999
Speaker 1: your loss and grief and everything that you feel like

639
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: you would lose, and not about the other person's making

640
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: me do this. That's where resentment is. Grief is just

641
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: for me personally. I would miss this.

642
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 6: Okay in the scenario, and we should each think about

643
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 6: it in a scenario where we're living elsewhere where we yes.

644
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: Yes, So for you Ryan, that would be if you

645
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: were in New York. For Beth that would be if

646
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: you were in Omaha.

647
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 7: Okay.

648
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: And as you're doing it, sit with it, let yourself

649
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: feel whatever you're feeling. If you start to go into

650
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: that resentful, angry place, go back to the sadness and

651
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: the loss, that's sometimes a harder place to sit. And

652
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: it's so much easier to externalize and be angry at

653
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: someone else out there or something else out there, but

654
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 1: to go inside and say, oh, this hurts, I'm going

655
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: to miss this, I'm losing this and grieving this. Yeah,

656
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 1: so that's the first part of the exercise.

657
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 3: Yes, So here's the second part of the exercise. And

658
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 3: it's informed of the fact that it seemed to me

659
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 3: that some of the debate that you're having sounds too

660
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 3: much like it did in DC before you had the

661
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 3: experience of making the compromise, of being on the other

662
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 3: person's turf, of seeing that it's survivable. So with that

663
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 3: in mind, I like you to do the following. I

664
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 3: want you to imagine yourself, each of you in five

665
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 3: years time, living at the other person's geography. So you

666
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 3: Ryan are living in Long Island and you, Beth, are

667
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: living in Omaha, and I want you to write down

668
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: what a happy day in your life looks like in

669
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 3: that place. And I want you to really have a

670
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 3: lot of detail in it. And I want you to

671
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 3: truly imagine what's the happiest you could be there, Because

672
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 3: I am sure you've had happy days in Omaha, Beth,

673
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: I'm sure you had happy days in New York. Write

674
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 3: a real description of a truly happy day in which

675
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: it's not just about you, but what are the kids

676
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 3: doing what's the other person doing, perhaps what you're doing

677
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: with the families. And then when you're both done, I

678
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 3: want you to read your description to the other person,

679
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 3: Ryan your happy day in Long Island in five years

680
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 3: time and Beth your happy day in Omaha in five

681
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 3: years time. Okay, okay, And that's it. And then I

682
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 3: want you to kind of sit with it, because I

683
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 3: think it's important that you take away this specter from

684
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 3: above you of this terrible thing that will happen when

685
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 3: we have to debate this again, and remind yourselves that

686
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 3: it's an issue. It's not the volcanic, supersized, unsolvable therapist

687
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: felling issue that you've grown it to be at this point.

688
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: And I just want to add one thing to that exercise,

689
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: which is that because the first part of what we

690
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: suggested is about really processing your loss and grief, in

691
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: the second scenario, when you're writing about your happiest day

692
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: in the other location, we want you to do it

693
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: where for example, Beth, you are not thinking about your

694
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 1: mother in New York. So what would Omaha be like

695
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: if this part of the piece didn't exist, right that

696
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 1: you don't have a mother living in New York, So

697
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: you're just living in Omaha. Your family's there, and you

698
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: don't feel the tug of your mother.

699
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 7: Got it? Okay? And for Ryan, same thing.

700
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: You're in New York, but you don't have the family

701
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 1: and the cousins in Omaha. You're just saying, what is

702
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: my happiest day here in Long Island. I don't feel

703
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: the tug of my family back in Omaha.

704
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 3: Yeah?

705
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 7: What does my life look like there.

706
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: When I'm not thinking about what I'm losing but I'm

707
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: just living my life here.

708
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 5: Yeah that makes sense.

709
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 3: Good.

710
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 7: Well, we look forward to hearing how it goes.

711
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 5: Okay, great, all right, thank you so much.

712
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: So I really like this couple. I'm thinking about what

713
00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: they're going to do with our advice.

714
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 7: What do you think is going to happen?

715
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 3: Guy, I think they're going to do it. I hope

716
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 3: they can do that without qualifiers, but I do think

717
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 3: that it'll give them a little bit of peace. There

718
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 3: a couple that I think read wants to be there

719
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 3: for one another.

720
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: I also felt the love between these people, and you

721
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: could see the way that they were sitting, the way

722
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: that they were touching each other. They were very affectionate

723
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: with each other. They were very respectful of one another,

724
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: and they were very careful to.

725
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 7: Be gentle with the other person.

726
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 1: And I think that this will give them an opportunity

727
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: to do the grieving that they need to do and

728
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: then also take themselves out of that long standing position

729
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: that they've been in.

730
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: I agree because one thing that we can always tell

731
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 3: as therapists as soon as people sit down sometimes is

732
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 3: whether there's a really strong foundation.

733
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 1: And I'm really curious to hear how it went for them.

734
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 3: Yes, me too.

735
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: This is dear Therapists, and we'll be back after a

736
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: short break.

737
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 3: I'm Lari Gottlie and I'm Guy Wench and this is deeotherapists.

738
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's listen to the voicemail Hello by Ryan and Beth.

739
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 6: Following up after working through our homework, we just want

740
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 6: to say that it was a great exercise getting past

741
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 6: those combative emotions and getting to the inner core of

742
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 6: sadness grief was really meaningful, and going through the first

743
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 6: exercise helped me come to a deeper place and being

744
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 6: more vulnerable and open in our marriage.

745
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think too, we really thought about the

746
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 4: idea that was brought up, which was the brinksmanship we'd

747
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 4: been using to work through this the one upsmanship, and

748
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 4: that's not how anyone should live and it's not always

749
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 4: about one upsmanship. So moving past anger, hurt, feelings, resentment

750
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 4: and instead talking through three body of grief and sadness

751
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 4: was super important and we were really glad we did it.

752
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, having it rained differently has helped us think about it.

753
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was nice to write about not just the

754
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 4: grief and the tenderness, but the happy moments.

755
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 3: The perfect day.

756
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 4: It was a good visualization exercise, and there really were

757
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,240
Speaker 4: wonderful moments. We both included things we'd want to do

758
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 4: by ourselves and things we'd do as a family and

759
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 4: the couple, and there were things we have done or

760
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 4: we could see ourselves doing. So to kind of fast

761
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 4: forward five years and think through the potential good was

762
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 4: actually really helpful to focus on positive instead of just

763
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 4: the negative. So I'm glad we went in that order

764
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 4: and not to throw Ryan under the bus, but I

765
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 4: know that getting in touch with the tender core and

766
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 4: inner emotions has not been the easiest thing for him

767
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 4: his whole life, So I think this was a great

768
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 4: way to open the door on that. This has been

769
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 4: a really important moment for us to deepen our own

770
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 4: and relationship and how we communicate with each other instead

771
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 4: of getting angry about.

772
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 7: This a lot.

773
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 6: I was raised in a generation where men didn't show emotions,

774
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 6: men didn't express themselves, and so I am not good

775
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 6: at words when it comes to this, but going through

776
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 6: it has helped me grow in that sense, and it's

777
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 6: opened my eyes to the benefits of talking and open communication.

778
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 6: So I'm feeling really good about being married to you,

779
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 6: and I love you.

780
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 8: I feel the same way about you too.

781
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 5: So thank you.

782
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 4: This is a really important way to reframe and focus.

783
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 4: So thank you, Laurie, Thank you guy.

784
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 6: This is really super valuable.

785
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 3: So we appreciate you.

786
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 6: Thank you so much.

787
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 3: You Well, what's really interesting to me is when a

788
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 3: couple really gets not just what we're asking them to do,

789
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 3: but why you're asking them to do it. They usually

790
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 3: are able to take it to better place and expand

791
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 3: it and generalize it and add things to it that

792
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 3: make it even more powerful because they got the principles.

793
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 3: And that's always great to hear.

794
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're a very thoughtful couple. I felt it was

795
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: important that they were able to look at the positives

796
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,720
Speaker 1: of the other person's position, because they were sort of

797
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 1: having the sacrifice Olympics.

798
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 7: Your sacrifice is smaller.

799
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: Than my sacrifice, right, They focus on what they're not

800
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: going to get by going to the other person's side,

801
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: and here they were able to say, I could picture

802
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: being happy, and that just opens up the conversation.

803
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 3: And also, this was such a painful thing for them,

804
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 3: So the fact that it was something they could even

805
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 3: joke around with each other about now is a real

806
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 3: testament to the fact that they've actually worked something through them.

807
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 1: Every couple has some kind of issue where somebody feels like,

808
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: here's my position, here's your position, and there's no way

809
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: to compromise. And the exercise that they did is applicable

810
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: to any couple. Any couple can say, let's talk about

811
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: the loss and the grief, and let's share that with

812
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: each other so we really understand the other person's inner

813
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: life and inner world here, and then let's also imagine

814
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: the positive parts of what would happen if I made

815
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 1: some movement toward the other person's position. You can use

816
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: that in any kind of disagreement that you're having in

817
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: a couple. So I hope that other people will apply

818
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 1: it to their relationships.

819
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 3: That brings us to the end of our show for

820
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: this week. Thank you so much for listening.

821
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot

822
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb

823
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

824
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

825
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 3: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd

826
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 3: like to discuss with us, big or small, email us

827
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 3: at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

828
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Christopher hasiotis produced and edited by

829
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

830
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

831
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 3: Next week, a man cares for his ex girlfriend's dog

832
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 3: and his current partner is concerned about what that means

833
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 3: for their relationship.

834
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 10: I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never

835
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 10: met this person, and I'm sorry to use the word hate,

836
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 10: but I hate her already because she is in the

837
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 10: middle of our relationship.

838
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio