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Speaker 1: Just a heads up. This episode includes mentions of sex crimes.

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: There used to be a time when we didn't really

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Speaker 1: have a term for the idea of revenge born. Spreading

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Speaker 1: someone's intimate content online without their content was just a

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Speaker 1: thing that happened on the Internet. Just last week, nineteen

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Speaker 1: year old Aaron Coleman won the Democratic primary for a

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Speaker 1: Kansas House seat, even after admitting to obtaining nude photos

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Speaker 1: of a girl when he was fourteen, trying to blackmail

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Speaker 1: her into sending him more photos and spreading them online

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Speaker 1: when she refused. On Twitter. Journalist Glenn Greenwald of The

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Speaker 1: Intercept called Aaron's behavior quote bad middle school bullying. But

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Speaker 1: this kind of behavior isn't just bullying. It's a serious

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Speaker 1: sex crime. When we minimize revenge porn, we're contributing to

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Speaker 1: an attitude that says, once someone takes an intimate photo

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Speaker 1: of themselves, they deserve whatever happens next, even if it

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Speaker 1: means their life is destroyed, they're harassed, or worse. Luckily,

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Speaker 1: women are fighting to build a better Internet, one where

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Speaker 1: we have the right to feel safe online. You could

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Speaker 1: be forgiven for thinking of Carrie Goldberg as a real

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Speaker 1: life superhero instead of a cape. She rocks heels, bold

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Speaker 1: statement glasses, and sometimes even caps it off with a

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Speaker 1: baseball hat. Reading I sue abusers with her law firm.

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Speaker 1: She spent her professional life holding all manner of Internet creeps, abusers,

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Speaker 1: and stalkers accountable. Going head to head with powerful abusers

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Speaker 1: and their enablers is scary, but Carrie has never been

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Speaker 1: one to back down from a challenge. She represented Lucia

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Speaker 1: Evans and pass de la Huerta, who were among the

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Speaker 1: first women who made public allegations against Harvey Weinstein, which

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Speaker 1: led to his arrest. Her book, Nobody's Victim, is about

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Speaker 1: her own experiences with an abusive X who vowed to

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Speaker 1: use the Internet to ruin her life, and her journey

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Speaker 1: to become the lawyer she needed. Carrie has been responsible

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Speaker 1: for creating a massive cultural change around the kind of

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Speaker 1: experiences marginalized people can expect from the Internet. Her work

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Speaker 1: creating accountability for people who misuse the Internet to cause

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Speaker 1: harm forces us to ask why should we accept mistreatment

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Speaker 1: as a given. Why can't things be better? Carrie? It

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Speaker 1: turns out has been holding creeps accountable since the very beginning.

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Speaker 1: So one of the stories I read about you is

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Speaker 1: that when you were in school, one of your classmates

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Speaker 1: was bragging about having gotten a hand job from one

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Speaker 1: of your girlfriends, and you responded by gluing a bunch

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Speaker 1: of amputated doll hands to a poster and giving it

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Speaker 1: to him with a card that says, we'll give you

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Speaker 1: a hand has holding people accountable for their bad behavior

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Speaker 1: always been a mission of yours? Ended be able to

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Speaker 1: like it was a mission of mine, No, but it

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Speaker 1: was a fun pastime. And I remember um, one of

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Speaker 1: my friends was on the boys soccer team and she

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Speaker 1: was the only girl on the team. We didn't have

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Speaker 1: a girl soccer team in Aberdeen. And there was an

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Speaker 1: incident where she was on the school bus and they

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Speaker 1: were going to an away game and she fell asleep

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Speaker 1: with her mouth open, and she told me about how

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Speaker 1: when she woke up there were all these pubes in

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Speaker 1: her mouth and all I guess a bunch of of

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Speaker 1: her teammates had like plucked their pubes and put it

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Speaker 1: put them in her mouth. Now I was a member

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Speaker 1: of the eurote team, and I got assigned to write

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Speaker 1: this story about the boys soccer team, and I got

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Speaker 1: kicked off the yearbook team or the year robe class

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Speaker 1: because the teacher had realized that the first letter of

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Speaker 1: each word in the first couple of sentences spelled out

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Speaker 1: pubic pluckers. So, um, you know, now that's just like

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Speaker 1: that's a title nine situation, you know, like her waking

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Speaker 1: up and having you know that that's a disciplinary issue.

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Speaker 1: Back then, it was, it was. We didn't think that

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Speaker 1: much of it. It was playful, but I mean, she

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Speaker 1: was the only girl on that team, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was it was. It's certainly impacting her enjoyment of it.

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Speaker 1: Boys will be boys. It's just a joke. She deserved it.

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Speaker 1: I'd never let something like that happen to me. It's

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Speaker 1: difficult for me to admit, but I've had these kinds

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Speaker 1: of harmful victim blaming reactions to hearing about the sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse of a classmate. I was fifteen, and it was gossip,

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Speaker 1: something to whisper about on home room. I got to

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Speaker 1: feel like part of the in group, judging another girl

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Speaker 1: for something that was done to her. It was wrong,

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Speaker 1: and I wish I had known better. Young me contributed

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Speaker 1: to a culture that treated serious crimes and violations like

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Speaker 1: some big joke. It wasn't a joke. Your work has

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Speaker 1: been incredibly impactful for me for my own process of

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Speaker 1: understanding the cultural change that needs to happen around those

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Speaker 1: kinds of stories. Right. Um, when I was in high school,

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Speaker 1: I think I was in tenth grade. You know how

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Speaker 1: every high school has that big scandal that happens in

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Speaker 1: your in your in your class, or in your school

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Speaker 1: that everybody's talking about. In my school, it was a

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Speaker 1: girl had sent intimate pictures to her boyfriend currently just

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Speaker 1: for him, and he sent them to everybody. You know,

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Speaker 1: he said. We lived at a went to a pretty

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Speaker 1: small school. It was an all girls school where there

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Speaker 1: was an all boys school nearby, and these pictures were

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Speaker 1: seeing by everybody. And I hate to say this, it's

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Speaker 1: like a shameful confession, but fifteen year old Bridget I

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Speaker 1: thought this was a joke, right, Like, fifteen year old

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Speaker 1: Bridget thought that because she had taken these pictures at all,

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Speaker 1: she deserved what happened to her. She deserved to be shamed.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I was very young, but looking back,

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Speaker 1: I thought about it as a as a joke, right,

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Speaker 1: I didn't think it was serious, and I thought that,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was okay to make fun of her,

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Speaker 1: to shame her because she had done this to herself

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Speaker 1: and she deserves it. And it wasn't until becoming older

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Speaker 1: did I really step back and think like I was

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Speaker 1: really complicit in continuing a cultural attitude that a when

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Speaker 1: things like this happened, that it's just a joke, it's

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Speaker 1: not serious, it's not a big it's not a crime,

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Speaker 1: and be that the victims deserve to whatever like scorn

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Speaker 1: or shame they get because they put themselves in this situation.

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Speaker 1: And I guess my question is how do we get

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Speaker 1: to a place where we more people go through that

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Speaker 1: process of being like, oh, well, actually, I believe some

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Speaker 1: pretty funked up stuff about victims, about sexualized violence. And

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Speaker 1: I have a role in making sure that that people

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Speaker 1: everybody understands that these are very serious and appreciate what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about is is like, it is the issue.

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Speaker 1: You know, Like most of my underage clients, almost all

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Speaker 1: of them are that victim, are the person that the

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Speaker 1: scandal around the high school is is orbiting around and um,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it is like the The issue

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Speaker 1: is that kids don't learn empathy, and they don't develop

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Speaker 1: empathetic skills until later on, and they can't roll reverse

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Speaker 1: with with the victims, and so instead they want to

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Speaker 1: be there's a natural instinct in all of us to

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Speaker 1: want to be part of the gossip and part of

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Speaker 1: the story and to see the picture that everyone else

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Speaker 1: is seeing and talking about, and not to be the

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Speaker 1: like upstander who is like, that's actually a sex crime.

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Speaker 1: And everyone who's looking at that and has it on

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Speaker 1: their phone and it's sending it to other minors, is

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Speaker 1: is actually engaging in a felony. You know, child pornoter

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Speaker 1: be like felonious behavior. But the issue is that that

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Speaker 1: attitude of victim blaming and stuff, which is really natural

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Speaker 1: in kids. It's also frequently present in the administrators, UM,

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Speaker 1: in the school resource officers who are cops, and even

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Speaker 1: in the people UM in the parents who get involved,

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Speaker 1: including sometimes the victims parents. A lot of times our

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Speaker 1: clients don't take immediate action because they're afraid of um,

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Speaker 1: their parents disciplining them. UM. And it's just you know,

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Speaker 1: we talk about consent education and how we need to

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Speaker 1: teach kids about consent. But a big component of that

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Speaker 1: is is about empathy and just you know, doing role

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Speaker 1: reversal exercises where kids have to imagine what it's like

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Speaker 1: to be in somebody else's shoes, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: important when we're talking about race and gender and and

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Speaker 1: also um victimization. One of Carrie's clients, a Brooklyn team

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Speaker 1: with mental disabilities, was raped in a stairwell while at school.

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Speaker 1: When she reported what happened, her school counselor decided that

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Speaker 1: she was at fault and suspended her. Sadly, her story

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Speaker 1: is not really that uncommon. School aged black and brown

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Speaker 1: girls are more likely to face interpersonal violence at school

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Speaker 1: and are also disproportionately criminalized and punished. Carrie's client when

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Speaker 1: a nine and fifty dollars settlement against the city and

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Speaker 1: a city spokesperson promised forty seven million dollars annually in

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Speaker 1: school climate trading programs. It won't undo the hell she suffered,

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Speaker 1: Carrie said, but it will buy her some comfort and healing.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not necessarily about suing, although I am

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Speaker 1: a big believer in that, when it's when the circumstances

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Speaker 1: are right, but it's it's like making amplifying your boys.

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Speaker 1: And I mean sometimes when I would be writing my

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Speaker 1: cool complaints in preparation of lawsuits, I would get so

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Speaker 1: emotional that I would just go on these like tweeter Twitter,

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Speaker 1: like like storms, you know, just like deeva fits. But

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Speaker 1: even that, you know, those would get retweeted, And by

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Speaker 1: the time I filed my complaints, I had a lot

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Speaker 1: of journalists that were um that we're in line to

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Speaker 1: cover them. Um. Some of it's just like letting the

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Speaker 1: natural rage of the injustice let's speak for itself. Let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick break her back. Kaylee has a real

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Speaker 1: connection to our clients. She rages about the injustices they

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Speaker 1: face on Twitter. She uses her own experiences to help

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Speaker 1: them combat stigma and shame and let them know they're

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Speaker 1: not alone. I feel very invested in in um making

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Speaker 1: the process of the litigation or getting justice tall rble

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Speaker 1: because they can take years and you need you need

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Speaker 1: them to be able to to feel like it's worth it.

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Speaker 1: And it's um. It's stressful at times, and it can

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Speaker 1: be very um invasive, you know, like when you're having

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Speaker 1: to relive when you're only sixteen seventeen, you're having to

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Speaker 1: relive this awful thing that happened to you when you're thirteen.

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Speaker 1: You need you need to like feel like it's it's

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Speaker 1: for something really important and um and also just getting

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Speaker 1: back to what you're talking about, bridget about how um,

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Speaker 1: you know, when we're young, we can actually be complicit

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Speaker 1: in some of the violation. It makes me think about

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Speaker 1: how much more traumatizing it is to be a victim

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Speaker 1: when you're when you're young and we were not only

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Speaker 1: have have our violators not developed uh, the skill of empathy,

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Speaker 1: but the victims haven't figured out how to cope. And

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Speaker 1: you can feel like your whole world is crushing around you.

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Speaker 1: If if you are not only sexually violated, but then

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Speaker 1: all the students in your class, you know, think you're

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Speaker 1: a joke and are spreading it, and you know you're

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Speaker 1: afraid your parents are gonna punish you, and you're afraid

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Speaker 1: your school's gonna punish you, and like kids aren't ready

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Speaker 1: don't have control over their lives. And and then to

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Speaker 1: be kind of socially ostracized or put in this category

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Speaker 1: of other and have your friendships kind of crumble like

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Speaker 1: that is that can create such desperation. UM, and every

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Speaker 1: single one of our young clients has been suicidal during

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Speaker 1: during those moments. It's just like they don't have the

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Speaker 1: coping skills. I didn't when I was that age. When

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Speaker 1: Carrie was younger, she was victimized by abuse of XS.

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Speaker 1: One had intimate images of her and vowed to use

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Speaker 1: them to ruin her life. This was before revenge porn

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Speaker 1: was even really a thing. People didn't know how to

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Speaker 1: talk about it or deal with it when it happened,

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Speaker 1: and lawyers didn't really know how to handle what she

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Speaker 1: was going through. In your book, you talk about how

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Speaker 1: you became the lawyer that you that you wish you

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Speaker 1: had had in your thirties. Can you tell me a

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Speaker 1: bit about that? Yeah? Well, I had some uh violence,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was the victim of some dating violence

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Speaker 1: and incident of sexual violence before I started my law firm.

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Speaker 1: And UM, when I was trying to escape my ex

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Speaker 1: boyfriends stalking and he was just besieging me with with

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Speaker 1: text messages and threats and and false police reports and

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Speaker 1: it was never ending. Um. I had trouble finding lawyer. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, I I work with somebody on the domestic

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Speaker 1: violence piece. I worked with somebody on the UM the

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Speaker 1: focus criminal complaints peace. But for everyone that I talked to,

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Speaker 1: this was a real like abnormal case for them, UM,

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Speaker 1: and you know it. You don't want to be the

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Speaker 1: the the outlier when it comes to getting legal help

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Speaker 1: and having a lawyer. UM, you know, be kind of

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Speaker 1: learning as they go, and and it was unpredictable for them,

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Speaker 1: you know, what would happen or or kind of the

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Speaker 1: profile of my offender was something really new to them.

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Speaker 1: And UM, when I finally got my orders of protection

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Speaker 1: and he played guilty, which was six months after the breakup,

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Speaker 1: m I quit everything and started my law firm a

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Speaker 1: few months later when I was you know, in retrospect,

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Speaker 1: I was still in the midst of a lot of trauma.

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Speaker 1: But UM, I started this law firm basically to become

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Speaker 1: the kind of lawyer that I'd needed because I've gotten

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Speaker 1: this kind of involuntary education into UM, into into the

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Speaker 1: world of of you know, being stalked and having no

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Speaker 1: control over what's happening in the Internet. And I learned

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Speaker 1: that in New York we didn't have a law criminalizing um,

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Speaker 1: you know, somebody sending around your naked pictures and so

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Speaker 1: the Internet component of the attack on me was was

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Speaker 1: the most scary thing. That um, the scariest part about

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Speaker 1: it because even after I got my order of protection,

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Speaker 1: I knew that legally he could still be sending around

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Speaker 1: my images. He you know, as far as I know,

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Speaker 1: he didn't. But but there was always this like thing,

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Speaker 1: this that he had threatened to and and he had

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Speaker 1: sent me emails saying that he with the pictures, saying

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Speaker 1: that he'd blind copied. Um, you know people that I

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Speaker 1: was like other lawyers and judges and stuff. Um, but

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Speaker 1: it was like there's a constant anxiety that like I

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Speaker 1: wasn't I wasn't protected, even after all the legal issues

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Speaker 1: had had seemingly wrapped up. Kelly became one of the

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Speaker 1: most prominent lawyers specializing in revenge porn and offers victims

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Speaker 1: legal support and a pathway to justice, whatever that looks

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Speaker 1: like for them. Our expertise is dealing with people who

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Speaker 1: have been stalked and harassed and um, victims of sexual

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Speaker 1: assault and sexual trauma, and and getting justice for them.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just about getting in order of protection, or

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Speaker 1: helping advocate in the criminal justice system, or just sending

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Speaker 1: a season as system getting the offender to go away

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Speaker 1: for her. Other times it's we have to um the

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Speaker 1: victim doesn't want to take any legal action, but just

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Speaker 1: wants those images to be removed from the Internet. And

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Speaker 1: then we also do sometimes have really big cases against uh,

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Speaker 1: like the City of New York when there's a retaliation

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Speaker 1: against a student, or our big case against Grinder because

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Speaker 1: we felt they were facilitating our client being stalked UM.

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Speaker 1: But they're there. But basically, the whole idea is that

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Speaker 1: we every client that comes to us has either been

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Speaker 1: attacked or is under attack, and so we know what

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Speaker 1: to do. And we've seen all these these behavioral profiles

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Speaker 1: over and over again, and the more you do something,

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Speaker 1: the more expert you get. And so we we can predict,

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Speaker 1: you know, well by sending a season to this letter

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Speaker 1: to this kind of behavioral profile who is mentally ill

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Speaker 1: and relenting, and it says, we can know that's just

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Speaker 1: gonna escalate things, UM. Whereas oh, this other person, he's

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Speaker 1: threatening revenge porn, but he's actually got a really stable

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Speaker 1: job and UM, lives with with and has a kid,

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Speaker 1: and he's actually going to feel UM scared of a

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Speaker 1: threat because it could take things away from from him

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Speaker 1: more after this quick break, let's get right back to it.

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Speaker 1: Carrie's case against the dating app Grinder was one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest bites of her career. In it, she sets

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Speaker 1: her side a legislation called Section to thirty, which basically

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Speaker 1: says that tech platforms can't be sued for what people

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Speaker 1: say on those platforms. Now, free speech advocates like the

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Speaker 1: Electronic Frontier Foundation say Section to thirty is what makes

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Speaker 1: the Internet the Internet, But Carrie says, that's exactly the problem.

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Speaker 1: Forgive me if I like bungle this from my kind

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Speaker 1: of like lay person's research, I understand that it really

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Speaker 1: comes down to Section to thirty, which I know that

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Speaker 1: is something that you really really have an issue with.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is the section that allows tech companies

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Speaker 1: to not be held liable for things that that are

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Speaker 1: said on their platform way that their platforms are used. Um.

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Speaker 1: Free speech advocates say that that section is like what

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Speaker 1: makes the Internet what it is. But you say, that's

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Speaker 1: exactly the problem, right, that we should be thinking about

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Speaker 1: the Internet in a different way, we should be building

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Speaker 1: a different Internet. I guess how do we reconcile those

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Speaker 1: two those two arguments. I guess you know, Um, is

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Speaker 1: there some way to preserve free speech online while also

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Speaker 1: not letting tech companies just like avoid accountability for the

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Speaker 1: way that their platforms are are misused. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I have so much to say in this pretinue. You've

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Speaker 1: you've framed it like better better than I could. Our

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Speaker 1: client Matthew Herrick a waiter slash actor slash former reality

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Speaker 1: star who lived in Manhattan in Harlem, and he had

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Speaker 1: just ended a relationship with a really controlling and abusive man.

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Speaker 1: And among the ways that that man stalked Matthew was

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Speaker 1: he UM started creating fake profiles on Grinder, the gay

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Speaker 1: dating app, and then luring people to Matthew's job and

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Speaker 1: to his home using Grinder's geolocating technology and dmng with

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Speaker 1: with the unknowing people. And over the course of several months,

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Speaker 1: over individuals came in person to Matthew's apartment and to

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Speaker 1: his job, thinking that they were there to have sex

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Speaker 1: with him. So imagine, just like in the course of

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Speaker 1: this interview, if your buzzer rang three times with you know,

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Speaker 1: like it was sometimes as many as twenty three people

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Speaker 1: a day bridge it and UM, and you know, each

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Speaker 1: time he didn't know who it was going to be.

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Speaker 1: He didn't know if that person was going to be dangerous. Sometimes, Um,

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Speaker 1: Matthew's X would would torment and taunt the visitors and

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Speaker 1: say homophobic or racist things, or say that Matthew had

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Speaker 1: free drugs, and so sometimes the visitors would um come

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Speaker 1: really angry or tweaked out. Um, but always they were

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Speaker 1: there thinking that Matthew had had great fantasies and and stuff. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was scary, like it was. It was

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Speaker 1: a crime that was happening to Matthew day in and

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Speaker 1: day out, every single day. And Matthew had gone to

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Speaker 1: the police ten times, he'd gotten an order protection that

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Speaker 1: the offender was violating over and over again, and nothing

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Speaker 1: nothing mattered. Matthew flagged the accounts with Hinder about fifty

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Speaker 1: times by the time we came along. And then I was, um,

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Speaker 1: I had just worked with a bunch of big tech

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Speaker 1: companies at the time. This is like, um, the fall

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Speaker 1: or the the end of and I've worked with a

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Speaker 1: bunch of tech companies on their revenge porn policies, and

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Speaker 1: so I was super like, I'll just call up Grinder's

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Speaker 1: general counsel and get them to remove this this user,

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Speaker 1: and they ignored me too, and so I was like raging,

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Speaker 1: raging with him, and we UM ended up getting a

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Speaker 1: restraining order against Grinder UM saying that they had to

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Speaker 1: remove this user, which you know, it's not super common

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Speaker 1: to get a restrainding order against a tech company. UM,

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Speaker 1: but we got it. And Grinder even ignored that. The

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Speaker 1: visitors kept coming and we UM, as we you know,

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Speaker 1: plotted our lawsuit against Grinder, we had to worry about,

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Speaker 1: UM the Communications Decency Act Section to thirty, which was

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Speaker 1: this law as you mentioned, that went into effect UM

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Speaker 1: back in UH five when the Internet looked nothing like

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Speaker 1: it does now. And UM the law was actually, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just a twenty six word law that was part

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Speaker 1: of a bigger law that basically banned pornography on the internet.

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Speaker 1: But the other part of that law got got deemed unconstitutional.

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Speaker 1: In case you're wondering, UM, why we have porn on

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Speaker 1: the internet. UM, it's it's not constitutional to to outlaw it.

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Speaker 1: But but this little section survived, and it opetually was

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Speaker 1: was supposed to just make it so that you know,

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Speaker 1: if if a bolletin board, which was basically the way

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Speaker 1: that you know, people talked to one another online. If

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Speaker 1: if somebody posted something defamatory UM on the bulletin board,

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Speaker 1: there wouldn't be a lawsuit against the bulletin board. But

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Speaker 1: but the defamation would be user to user. And you know,

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Speaker 1: it kind of makes sense because then, um, the platforms

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Speaker 1: are not tasked with this burden of of having to

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Speaker 1: moderate all all the speech and all the posts and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. But the issue is that over the

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Speaker 1: last you know, five years, um, that law has been

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Speaker 1: interpreted by our courts in this really expansive way. And

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Speaker 1: so anytime you know, Twitter or Facebook or anybody gets

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Speaker 1: sued for something that's happening to a user, they say,

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Speaker 1: we're not liable because of section to thirty. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: like you can't hold this accountable for anything that one

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Speaker 1: user does to another, And courts of you know, said

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Speaker 1: you're right, because all the other cases before you didn't.

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Speaker 1: It's important to emphasize that Carrie isn't just talking about

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Speaker 1: what someone says on a platform. If a platform allows

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Speaker 1: an abusive user to impersonate you and set you up

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Speaker 1: for a dangerous encounter in real life, it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: big flaw. The issues at the Internet and apps and

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Speaker 1: and you know, are so much different now than they were.

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Speaker 1: And we're not just talking about defamation. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: you know, deolocating technology and and um, you know social

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Speaker 1: media companies which have so much function ability, and we're

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Speaker 1: talking about you know, dating apps, you know, and apps

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Speaker 1: that are playing a role in matching users. And so

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Speaker 1: but we had to make it when we were filing

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Speaker 1: this lawsuit so that we were not suing Grinder for

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Speaker 1: anything that matts X was doing to Matt because we

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Speaker 1: knew it would get kicked out of court for violating

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Speaker 1: section to thirty. And so when Grinder's lawyers finally came

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Speaker 1: to court and told us that they didn't have the

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Speaker 1: technology to ban and an abusive user, we were like, what, Like,

401
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Speaker 1: you had the world's biggest dating app, and it's so foreseeable,

402
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: the big biggest dating app, you know, for for gay people,

403
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: it's so foreseeable. But sometimes it's going to be abused

404
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Speaker 1: by stalkers, by predators, and you've not designed into it

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Speaker 1: like a way to stop abusive users. Well, then you've

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Speaker 1: you've released a dangerous product into the stream of commerce.

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Speaker 1: And just like our product liability laws for cars, you

408
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: know that have air bags that don't go off, or

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Speaker 1: or broken bread breaks or something like. Grinder had created

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Speaker 1: a dangerous product, and we say, you shouldn't have been

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Speaker 1: on the market in the first place. And the fact

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Speaker 1: that you are, well, that's how we're gonna sue you.

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Speaker 1: Grinder still said, you're at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: you're still holding us liable for stuff this users done

415
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Speaker 1: to Matthew. It's not us. And the judge agreed with

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Speaker 1: with Grinder, and we appealed and and and kept losing

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Speaker 1: at every stage and ultimately petitioned to the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: and lost. And UM which happened. You know, this was

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Speaker 1: from the beginning a real UM. It was a very

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Speaker 1: experimental lawsuit. Like at the time that we filed it,

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00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: it was novel for us to even be for anybody

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Speaker 1: to even be referring to UM apps as products. Everyone

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00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: was saying their services, their services. But but now this

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00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: idea has caught on and UM and it's kind of

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00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: changed the way that UM that we think about apps

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Speaker 1: and internet products. And the fact that we did have

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Speaker 1: such you know that Mattthew experienced such a horrific thing

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Speaker 1: and he couldn't get justice. That's actually helped us fight

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Speaker 1: for legislation and and so, as you mentioned, you've got

430
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: all these people on the other side that And I

431
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: don't actually think it's all these people. I think they're

432
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: just very vocal and they're getting paid a lot of

433
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: lobbying money from from big tech. Is the Internet we

434
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: have now working for everyone? Is it the version of

435
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: the Internet we want? Is it one worth preserving as is?

436
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: Karen doesn't really think so. But they're saying that, um,

437
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: basically the Internet as we know it when it exists,

438
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: um without Section two three, and we're going to lose

439
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: you know, all the this wonderful free exchange of ideas

440
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: if we if we lose section two three. And I

441
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: called total bs on that because number one, you're assuming

442
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: that the Internet as we know it is a great

443
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: place and as we know it like should be you know,

444
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: like preserved. Just you know, it's kind of like any

445
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: constitutional argument or or make American greading. You're assuming that

446
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: it is the things are great, um, and you know,

447
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: you're assuming that you know that everyone has the same

448
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: level of free speech. But I mean speech on the

449
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: Internet really belongs to those who are the loudest. And

450
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: and you know, for basically for companies Amazon, Facebook, UM,

451
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: Microsoft and Apple. I mean they control the Internet, and

452
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: we've got all our our issues with with antitrust um

453
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: and and then you and also the quantity. So the

454
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: most hostile people on the Internet are the ones who

455
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: have the greatest protections. UM. But also when we're talking

456
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: about lawsuits and and the right to sue, it's such

457
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: a fundamental right. Carry says that as long as tech

458
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: companies have the kind of legal protection afforded to them

459
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: by Section to thirty, it creates a situation where there's

460
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: not a lot of avenues to hold them accountable, you know.

461
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 1: Like the thing is like as you see with our

462
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: our cases against the New York City Department, then like

463
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: for the cost of an index number, which is a

464
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: couple hundred bucks which you can get waived. I had

465
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: a client who, you know, whose mom was a part

466
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: time home healthy and didn't speak English, you know, and

467
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: they had they had no money to speak of. I

468
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: had her suing the City of New York, which is

469
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: we're multibillion, you know, multibillion dollar dollars. And that's the

470
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: great equalizer in our country is that anybody can sue,

471
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: you know, if there's been a harm and and it's

472
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: it's fundamental, and it's also how we keep our big

473
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: organizations are companies from being total assholes because the threat

474
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: of being being sued is is hits you in the

475
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: bottom you know, it's a bottom line issue. It money

476
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: and um and it's what you know, like so many

477
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: safety measures, whether we're talking about pharma, suitables, or cars,

478
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: it's because of litigation that happened, or it's because of

479
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: the fear of litigation. And also it's because most companies

480
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: want people to be safe. They want their customers and

481
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: clients to not have a bad experience. You don't see

482
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: that with big tech though, you know, like the the

483
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: wall off. You know, like if you had a crisis

484
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: on Facebook. If let's say you're a parent and your

485
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: kid was manipulated into giving nudes to a pedophile and

486
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: then he was sharing them online. You're a parent, your

487
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: first instinct was who you know? Is who do I

488
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: talk to? Who do I talk to? What's the phone number?

489
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: Who's live to help me with this crisis? And it's

490
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: just like a one way street here. We're we're giving

491
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: these companies all this information about us and and and stuff,

492
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: and we can't I mean they are like it's like Oz,

493
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: like they're the behind this magic curtain and don't have

494
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: to interact with us users. As you were talking, it

495
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: occurred to me that when you first started your law firm,

496
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: the idea of revenge porn didn't even really exist, and

497
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: it was through advocating for legal protections and working with

498
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: victims that you helped usher in both a legal change

499
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: and a cultural reimagining of what revenge porn actually is.

500
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: And then listening to you talk about tech companies just now,

501
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: it seems like you're poised to do that same kind

502
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: of thing again when it comes to reimagining what role

503
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: tech companies should play in creating an Internet that's safer

504
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: for everyone, like a hard reset of how these companies operate. Yeah,

505
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's true, Bridget, There's so much there's

506
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: so much work that can be done, and like it's

507
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: it's a really critical time because you have all this

508
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: concentrated power and wealth and a few number, you know,

509
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: just a few companies, and that the inequality in our

510
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: in our society is just getting greater, you know, because

511
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: of these companies, because and and also the power and

512
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: the omniscience is also, you know another thing that's just

513
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: creating so much more inequality and in our country. And

514
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: the thing is, I do have so many cases where

515
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: it's you can't ignore that the facts are horrific. You know,

516
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: an eleven year old who was sex stwarted and made

517
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: to create all these videos and they were sent around

518
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: on Instagram. Or my my client who's who was who's

519
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: murder was basically life streamed um or another client who

520
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: was raped and murdered on a first date through match

521
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: dot Com by a known sex offender. Like there's gonna

522
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: come become a point where the more cases like that, Okay,

523
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: if even if these cases can't be brought in court

524
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: or get kicked out, like you can't deny that there

525
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: is extreme negligence by these companies, and we're just I'm

526
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: gonna just keep producing them until we get new law.

527
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: And it's just like any other case where if you

528
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: don't feel like you can become a victim, then you're

529
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: not gonna care. But the whole purpose of my book

530
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: and and everything is to is to pound into this

531
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: and into the consciousness that we're all a moment away

532
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: from becoming victims. Like all it takes is one person

533
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: to decide they want to destroy you one bad interaction

534
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: at the supermarket with somebody who finds out your name.

535
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: They then have the right to to, you know, go

536
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: to pedophile websites and and tell the world that you're

537
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: a pedophile. And good luck getting that down, you know, Like, um,

538
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: it's anybody can become a victim. But it shouldn't take

539
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 1: that in order for us to have empathy toward victims

540
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: and want to change the Internet. And it's you know,

541
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: like this we're not talking about, you know, somebody calling

542
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: somebody else a bitch on Twitter. That's not the kind

543
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: of speech that's going to be impacted. And we're not

544
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: even talking about speech really because this is all conduct,

545
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: you know. And but our law doesn't even see the

546
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: difference there, I would you know, Like with Grinder, we

547
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: weren't suing them for any words on the profile or

548
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: any words on the d M. We were suing them

549
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: because this product was being used, you know, hundreds of

550
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: times a day to try to get get our client injured.

551
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: It's not a speech issue. This is unjust Kenny's work

552
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: isn't just about the law. It confronts the cultural attitude

553
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: that people who are victimized online deserve it, or that

554
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: it's just a sexy scandal rather than a serious crime,

555
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: or that we should just expect that the internet is

556
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: a place where we'll be best treated. Why can't it

557
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: be better than that? So, what has it been like

558
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: to have such a personal hand in challenging the internet

559
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: to be better and safer and stronger and working to

560
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: build one where people with power are held accountable. Well,

561
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: it's it's so kind of you too to describe me

562
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: that way. Really, UM feel flattered about that. Um, you know,

563
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: I love my job and I love that as the

564
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: owner of this law firm, I can decide what direction

565
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: we go in and what fights to choose. I mean,

566
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: that is an incredibly privileged and inquisition to be in.

567
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 1: And you know, like there are ways to use your

568
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: law degree in a super awesome, fun, creative way. I mean,

569
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: what's it been like is just like been fun? But

570
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: there aren't moments where I wake up and I feel like,

571
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: oh I'm this light. Really, you know, I've done it,

572
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: you know, like like I've made it, because there's always, um,

573
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: somebody waiting to give me a bad verdict or you know,

574
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: a troll that you know cuts me down to size

575
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: or you know, like, um, there's you know there, there's

576
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: very fleeting moments of um, well, what should I call

577
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: fleeting moments of like success? I'm proud of what we do.

578
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of my staff, um, but we're always

579
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: humbled by by the next fight. On her website, Carrie

580
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: says the clients she works with aren't fragile like a flower,

581
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: They're fragile like a bomb. Through her work with those clients,

582
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: Carrie is blowing up our understanding of the Internet by

583
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: asking the big, bold questions about how it can be better.

584
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: She's taken the darkness she faced and used it to

585
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: build a brighter future. Got a story about an interesting

586
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: thing tech, or just want to say hi? You can

587
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: reach us at Hello at tang godi dot com. You

588
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com.

589
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

590
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: me Bridget tod. It's a production of I Heart Radio

591
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry

592
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is

593
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Todd. If you

594
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: want to help us grow, rate and review us on

595
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from i heeart Radio, check

596
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you

597
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: get your podcasts,