1 00:00:15,370 --> 00:00:23,970 Speaker 1: Pushkin. At the outbreak of the Second World War, one 2 00:00:23,970 --> 00:00:26,850 Speaker 1: of the many fears the world had to contemplate was 3 00:00:26,890 --> 00:00:30,490 Speaker 1: that civilians would be bond. That was a new horror. 4 00:00:30,970 --> 00:00:34,170 Speaker 1: Nobody knew what would happen if the bombers swarmed thick 5 00:00:34,210 --> 00:00:37,410 Speaker 1: in the skies over the world's great cities. But the 6 00:00:37,450 --> 00:00:40,850 Speaker 1: received wisdom was that the morale of the civilian population 7 00:00:41,570 --> 00:00:46,010 Speaker 1: would shatter like the glass in their windows. Civilization itself 8 00:00:46,130 --> 00:00:51,370 Speaker 1: might break down. Winston Churchill believed this, so did Adolf Hitler, 9 00:00:52,010 --> 00:00:56,650 Speaker 1: so did their generals. They were wrong. Every school child 10 00:00:56,690 --> 00:00:59,170 Speaker 1: in the UK knows the story of the Blitz spirit 11 00:00:59,730 --> 00:01:03,250 Speaker 1: of how as Hitler's Luftwaffe dropped bomb after bomb over 12 00:01:03,330 --> 00:01:07,690 Speaker 1: London in late nineteen forty, Londoners refused to be cowed. 13 00:01:09,090 --> 00:01:12,210 Speaker 1: The glass did indeed chatter, but the British upper lip 14 00:01:12,410 --> 00:01:15,890 Speaker 1: remained as stiff as ever. One pub put up a sign, 15 00:01:16,410 --> 00:01:19,810 Speaker 1: our windows are gone, but our spirits are excellent. Come 16 00:01:19,850 --> 00:01:23,810 Speaker 1: in and try them. Eighty years later, we still feel 17 00:01:23,890 --> 00:01:28,850 Speaker 1: nostalgia for how people pulled together. We forget how surprising 18 00:01:28,930 --> 00:01:33,810 Speaker 1: this stoic response was, and the lesson was ignored. The 19 00:01:33,930 --> 00:01:37,410 Speaker 1: Allies made the same mistake when contemplating their own bombing 20 00:01:37,410 --> 00:01:41,170 Speaker 1: campaign of German cities. There was little sign that morale 21 00:01:41,250 --> 00:01:44,490 Speaker 1: had been dented in London or other English bomb hit 22 00:01:44,570 --> 00:01:49,370 Speaker 1: cities such as Birmingham or Hull. Yet Churchill's friend and adviser, 23 00:01:49,490 --> 00:01:53,450 Speaker 1: Frederick Lindeman, told him that morale was cracking and that 24 00:01:53,530 --> 00:01:56,810 Speaker 1: when German cities were thoroughly bombed, it would break the 25 00:01:56,850 --> 00:02:04,090 Speaker 1: spirit of the German people. Predictably, it didn't. Decades later, 26 00:02:04,490 --> 00:02:07,810 Speaker 1: carpet bombing didn't break the spirit of the North Vietnamese either. 27 00:02:09,250 --> 00:02:13,730 Speaker 1: Our stubborn refusal to learn this lesson has had tragic consequences. 28 00:02:14,530 --> 00:02:18,410 Speaker 1: We keep believing that when disaster strikes, what's needed isn't 29 00:02:18,490 --> 00:02:23,410 Speaker 1: food and medical supplies, its law and order. When Hurricane 30 00:02:23,450 --> 00:02:26,650 Speaker 1: Katrina hit New Orleans in two thousand and five, the 31 00:02:26,730 --> 00:02:30,730 Speaker 1: response of the police, the media, and nearby areas was 32 00:02:30,770 --> 00:02:33,730 Speaker 1: all shaped by the sad fact that they just couldn't 33 00:02:33,730 --> 00:02:37,410 Speaker 1: believe that the citizens of New Orleans might pull together 34 00:02:37,450 --> 00:02:41,530 Speaker 1: to look out for each other. Community volunteers were told 35 00:02:41,610 --> 00:02:46,250 Speaker 1: to stand guard against looters rather than helping with evacuations 36 00:02:46,370 --> 00:02:50,650 Speaker 1: or distributing food and water. The Red Cross didn't enter 37 00:02:50,690 --> 00:02:54,170 Speaker 1: the city for a month. They were afraid that it 38 00:02:54,210 --> 00:02:59,850 Speaker 1: was just too dangerous. I highlighted these true stories in 39 00:02:59,850 --> 00:03:04,970 Speaker 1: an earlier episode of Cautionary Tales called The Village of Heroes. 40 00:03:05,810 --> 00:03:08,850 Speaker 1: I wanted to remind us that in a crisis, most 41 00:03:09,090 --> 00:03:16,170 Speaker 1: people respond with decency and solidarity. Most people. I'm Tim 42 00:03:16,210 --> 00:03:42,530 Speaker 1: Harford and you're listening to Cautionary Tales. There's another episode 43 00:03:42,570 --> 00:03:46,250 Speaker 1: of Cautionary Tales coming any day now. But while you wait, 44 00:03:46,610 --> 00:03:50,490 Speaker 1: this is another of our Cautionary conversations in which I 45 00:03:50,530 --> 00:03:53,090 Speaker 1: speak to an expert about a tragic error of the 46 00:03:53,170 --> 00:03:56,290 Speaker 1: past and about what we can learn from it. My 47 00:03:56,370 --> 00:04:00,970 Speaker 1: guest this time is Alice Finds, who's a journalist, a criminologist, 48 00:04:01,170 --> 00:04:04,570 Speaker 1: and a podcast maker. Alice is the co host and 49 00:04:04,730 --> 00:04:08,210 Speaker 1: co writer of the podcast Bad Women, which is a 50 00:04:08,290 --> 00:04:12,610 Speaker 1: feminist take the ever popular true crime genre. The new 51 00:04:12,650 --> 00:04:15,330 Speaker 1: season of Bad Women, available as they say, wherever you 52 00:04:15,330 --> 00:04:18,970 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, is about the experiences of women during 53 00:04:19,010 --> 00:04:22,210 Speaker 1: the bombing of London and some of the awful crimes 54 00:04:22,210 --> 00:04:26,730 Speaker 1: which were committed against them, and why these crimes should 55 00:04:26,770 --> 00:04:31,090 Speaker 1: make us question our ideas about the so called blitz spirit. 56 00:04:31,730 --> 00:04:34,570 Speaker 1: Alice Fines, Welcome to caution Me Tales. Thanks for having me. 57 00:04:35,250 --> 00:04:39,250 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure. Although the show sometimes makes for difficult listening. 58 00:04:39,450 --> 00:04:41,970 Speaker 1: It is a true crime show. So what's the main 59 00:04:42,010 --> 00:04:46,610 Speaker 1: thrust of the podcast. So at the heart of our 60 00:04:46,650 --> 00:04:50,610 Speaker 1: show is this idea that states of war can pull 61 00:04:50,610 --> 00:04:54,170 Speaker 1: focus and they can provide cover for all manner of 62 00:04:54,610 --> 00:04:58,730 Speaker 1: really terrible deeds and really atrocious crimes. And in the 63 00:04:58,770 --> 00:05:01,770 Speaker 1: case of the Second World War and the Blitz, there's 64 00:05:01,810 --> 00:05:06,210 Speaker 1: also a literal cover of darkness. So Nazi bombers hope 65 00:05:06,250 --> 00:05:10,090 Speaker 1: to bomb Britain into submission, and as a defense against that, 66 00:05:10,570 --> 00:05:14,130 Speaker 1: all the lights in British cities were dimmed, street lights, 67 00:05:14,210 --> 00:05:17,170 Speaker 1: lights and homes illuminated signs. Miss he's almost absurd would 68 00:05:17,170 --> 00:05:19,370 Speaker 1: turn the lights out and they will home find us. 69 00:05:19,410 --> 00:05:22,890 Speaker 1: But actually it did work right exactly. So the idea 70 00:05:23,090 --> 00:05:25,810 Speaker 1: is that they can't find the places that would do 71 00:05:25,890 --> 00:05:29,490 Speaker 1: most damage to bomb. But it also means that the 72 00:05:29,530 --> 00:05:34,130 Speaker 1: streets at night are pitch black and in London, even 73 00:05:34,170 --> 00:05:37,290 Speaker 1: in London's nightlife district, all the lights have been extinguished 74 00:05:37,290 --> 00:05:39,770 Speaker 1: and that's where we find ourselves at the opening of 75 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:43,570 Speaker 1: Bad Women. So there's a killer on the loose in London, 76 00:05:43,730 --> 00:05:47,250 Speaker 1: and over one week in February nineteen forty two, he 77 00:05:47,330 --> 00:05:51,330 Speaker 1: attacks two women and he kills for more. He strikes 78 00:05:51,370 --> 00:05:55,330 Speaker 1: at night, and the darkness helps him get away and disappear, 79 00:05:55,810 --> 00:05:59,770 Speaker 1: but he also uses the new quite secluded spaces that 80 00:05:59,810 --> 00:06:01,890 Speaker 1: have opened up on the home front as a result 81 00:06:01,890 --> 00:06:04,610 Speaker 1: of war. At one point, he murders a woman in 82 00:06:04,610 --> 00:06:07,490 Speaker 1: a desolate air rage shelter. And it's not just the 83 00:06:07,530 --> 00:06:09,450 Speaker 1: spaces of war that helped him get away with it. 84 00:06:10,290 --> 00:06:14,810 Speaker 1: He is training to be a fighter pilot. Fighter pilots 85 00:06:14,810 --> 00:06:19,290 Speaker 1: are incredibly glamorous at the time and really seen as heroes, 86 00:06:19,370 --> 00:06:21,370 Speaker 1: and so I think that because he goes around in 87 00:06:21,410 --> 00:06:24,490 Speaker 1: this uniform, the people of his own side don't suspect him, 88 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:27,090 Speaker 1: and he uses that to pick up women. He also 89 00:06:27,130 --> 00:06:30,330 Speaker 1: affects the accent of an aristocrat, so he's not just 90 00:06:30,450 --> 00:06:33,490 Speaker 1: fainly acceptance into an elite branch of the forces, but 91 00:06:33,530 --> 00:06:36,650 Speaker 1: he's fainly acceptance into the highest echelons of society too. 92 00:06:37,490 --> 00:06:39,330 Speaker 1: So at the beginning of our show, he picks up 93 00:06:39,330 --> 00:06:41,810 Speaker 1: a woman called Greta Hayward and he takes her out 94 00:06:41,850 --> 00:06:45,050 Speaker 1: for a drink. It's really dark on the streets, and 95 00:06:45,650 --> 00:06:48,490 Speaker 1: she notices that the route that he's taking her down 96 00:06:48,810 --> 00:06:51,570 Speaker 1: is wrong, and she starts to feel uncomfortable, but he 97 00:06:51,690 --> 00:06:54,930 Speaker 1: kind of coerces her into going with him, and then 98 00:06:54,970 --> 00:06:57,890 Speaker 1: she takes out a flashlight to illuminate their path. You 99 00:06:57,930 --> 00:07:01,250 Speaker 1: don't want to use the torch. He grabs the light 100 00:07:01,330 --> 00:07:04,730 Speaker 1: from her hand and plunges them back into darkness. I 101 00:07:04,810 --> 00:07:07,250 Speaker 1: want to kiss you good night. Are there any air 102 00:07:07,290 --> 00:07:10,570 Speaker 1: age shelters around here? Greta doesn't know, but she is 103 00:07:10,650 --> 00:07:13,810 Speaker 1: certain of one thing. She doesn't want to venture into 104 00:07:13,810 --> 00:07:18,290 Speaker 1: a secluded, unlit bunger with this man. He grabs her 105 00:07:18,290 --> 00:07:21,690 Speaker 1: and steers her into a doorway, pushing closely up against 106 00:07:21,690 --> 00:07:25,050 Speaker 1: her and kissing her. Come on, you've got to let 107 00:07:25,090 --> 00:07:28,610 Speaker 1: me make love to you. He raises her skirt. Gretta 108 00:07:28,650 --> 00:07:32,650 Speaker 1: protests and pushes his hands away. The airman reaches up 109 00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:36,370 Speaker 1: as if to cradle her face for another kiss, but 110 00:07:36,530 --> 00:07:41,210 Speaker 1: instead his hands knit around her throat. She tries to 111 00:07:41,250 --> 00:07:45,930 Speaker 1: break free. You won't, you won't. Gretta struggles to release 112 00:07:45,970 --> 00:07:49,610 Speaker 1: the man's grip, but his fingers only tighten around her neck, 113 00:07:50,050 --> 00:07:52,570 Speaker 1: cutting off the flow of air to her lungs and 114 00:07:52,730 --> 00:08:00,570 Speaker 1: blood to her brain. You won't, you won't, Gretta Hayward 115 00:08:01,090 --> 00:08:13,770 Speaker 1: loses consciousness you are for some time. Gretta is not 116 00:08:13,970 --> 00:08:17,690 Speaker 1: this killer's first victim, nor will she be the last. 117 00:08:18,890 --> 00:08:21,930 Speaker 1: So that's an audio from the first episode of the 118 00:08:21,970 --> 00:08:24,690 Speaker 1: new series of Bad Women. We were hearing the voice 119 00:08:24,690 --> 00:08:27,450 Speaker 1: there of Hallie Rubinhold, who is your co host. And 120 00:08:27,890 --> 00:08:31,570 Speaker 1: the first series of Bad Women was about Jack the Ripper, 121 00:08:31,730 --> 00:08:34,650 Speaker 1: and I think more importantly about the women that he 122 00:08:34,810 --> 00:08:37,370 Speaker 1: killed them, and their lives and the way we tend 123 00:08:37,370 --> 00:08:41,330 Speaker 1: to overlook them. Curious thing about this this new series 124 00:08:41,570 --> 00:08:45,210 Speaker 1: is that unlike Jack the Ripper, who is infamous, the 125 00:08:45,250 --> 00:08:49,250 Speaker 1: Blackout Ripper is largely forgotten. I mean, the women are forgotten, 126 00:08:49,250 --> 00:08:52,650 Speaker 1: and you and Hallie are trying to recreate their lives. 127 00:08:52,650 --> 00:08:55,010 Speaker 1: We create their stories and remember what life was like 128 00:08:55,090 --> 00:08:57,770 Speaker 1: for them, but we also seem to have forgotten the 129 00:08:57,810 --> 00:09:02,010 Speaker 1: Blackout Ripper himself, this murderer. It is extraordinary that there's 130 00:09:02,050 --> 00:09:04,530 Speaker 1: this act of collective forgetting. I think the fact that 131 00:09:04,570 --> 00:09:07,250 Speaker 1: it was solved quickly has something to answer for there. 132 00:09:07,450 --> 00:09:10,170 Speaker 1: The black Out Ripper commits these crimes over a single week, 133 00:09:10,250 --> 00:09:14,250 Speaker 1: and he's caught pretty quickly. He's caught within that week, sadly, 134 00:09:14,290 --> 00:09:17,570 Speaker 1: not quickly enough to stop him murdering four women attacking 135 00:09:17,610 --> 00:09:21,450 Speaker 1: two more, whereas Jack the Ripper remains unsolved, and into 136 00:09:21,450 --> 00:09:24,970 Speaker 1: that void we can project all manner of fanciful theories, 137 00:09:25,130 --> 00:09:28,810 Speaker 1: whereas the Blackout Ripper was solved and wrapped up. I 138 00:09:28,850 --> 00:09:33,210 Speaker 1: think also it's unpalatable. It doesn't fit with our idea 139 00:09:33,250 --> 00:09:35,730 Speaker 1: of Blitz spirit. It doesn't fit with the idea that 140 00:09:35,810 --> 00:09:38,290 Speaker 1: the Blitz brought out the best in us, because in 141 00:09:38,330 --> 00:09:42,610 Speaker 1: some cases people were opportunistic and people use the chaos 142 00:09:42,610 --> 00:09:46,330 Speaker 1: of war to harm others. I mean, do you reject 143 00:09:46,370 --> 00:09:47,930 Speaker 1: the idea of the Blitz spirit. Do you think that 144 00:09:47,970 --> 00:09:51,890 Speaker 1: whole thing is just a completely fake narrative, or is 145 00:09:51,930 --> 00:09:55,890 Speaker 1: it broadly true that this is one of the tragic exceptions. 146 00:09:56,410 --> 00:10:00,210 Speaker 1: I think that the picture is complicated. There were instances 147 00:10:00,250 --> 00:10:03,650 Speaker 1: of opportunism and people exploiting the chaos of war to 148 00:10:03,690 --> 00:10:06,410 Speaker 1: their own ends, But I think that there is also 149 00:10:06,610 --> 00:10:10,890 Speaker 1: a genuine show of stoic contempt for the enemy. There 150 00:10:10,970 --> 00:10:15,050 Speaker 1: is this bravado and this desire to challenge the assumption 151 00:10:15,290 --> 00:10:17,970 Speaker 1: that the British people could be cowed, that they could 152 00:10:18,010 --> 00:10:20,930 Speaker 1: be bombed into submission. And we see that in the 153 00:10:20,970 --> 00:10:23,930 Speaker 1: way that shop owners carry on. As you'll hear in 154 00:10:24,010 --> 00:10:28,450 Speaker 1: this next clip, one correspondent from a regional newspaper is 155 00:10:28,490 --> 00:10:31,810 Speaker 1: in Piccadilly to report conditions back to his rural readership. 156 00:10:32,250 --> 00:10:35,770 Speaker 1: It looked exactly like old times. I saw the facade 157 00:10:35,810 --> 00:10:39,730 Speaker 1: of a fine building, seemingly untouched. Then you realize that 158 00:10:39,770 --> 00:10:42,290 Speaker 1: you could see daylight through the windows from the outside, 159 00:10:42,690 --> 00:10:45,410 Speaker 1: and that the walls were all that was left. I 160 00:10:45,450 --> 00:10:49,810 Speaker 1: saw an elegant establishment carrying on with tarpaulins slung across 161 00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:54,130 Speaker 1: the open roof. Glass out everywhere. When storefronts and windows 162 00:10:54,130 --> 00:10:57,970 Speaker 1: are blasted away, shopkeepers are keen to make a show 163 00:10:58,050 --> 00:11:01,890 Speaker 1: of defiance. Business as usual, reads the sign on one 164 00:11:02,010 --> 00:11:06,090 Speaker 1: chattered shop doorway in fact more open than ever. A 165 00:11:06,210 --> 00:11:09,930 Speaker 1: sign outside another bomb damage shop admits we never did 166 00:11:09,970 --> 00:11:15,210 Speaker 1: like window dressing anyway. Not everyone can joke about the carnage. 167 00:11:15,650 --> 00:11:19,370 Speaker 1: The writer George Orwell, is crunching through West End streets 168 00:11:19,490 --> 00:11:23,890 Speaker 1: littered with stone fragments and glittering with broken glass. He 169 00:11:23,970 --> 00:11:26,850 Speaker 1: comes across some debris from a bombed out department store. 170 00:11:27,010 --> 00:11:31,050 Speaker 1: A pile of plaster dress models, very pink and realistic, 171 00:11:31,730 --> 00:11:33,930 Speaker 1: looking so like a pile of corpses that one could 172 00:11:33,970 --> 00:11:36,930 Speaker 1: have mistaken them for that. At a little distance. The 173 00:11:37,050 --> 00:11:40,930 Speaker 1: scene is utterly shocking to him, but what astounds him 174 00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:44,450 Speaker 1: most of all is that passers by seem utterly unfazed 175 00:11:44,570 --> 00:11:47,810 Speaker 1: by the damage. To an astonishing extent. Things have slipped 176 00:11:47,810 --> 00:11:51,010 Speaker 1: back to normal and everyone is quite happy in the daytime, 177 00:11:51,570 --> 00:11:54,890 Speaker 1: never seeming to think about the coming night, like animals 178 00:11:54,890 --> 00:11:57,210 Speaker 1: which are unable to foresee the future so long as 179 00:11:57,210 --> 00:11:59,490 Speaker 1: they have a bit of food place in the sun, 180 00:12:00,410 --> 00:12:03,570 Speaker 1: George Orwell. They're quite surprised at the resilience of the 181 00:12:03,610 --> 00:12:07,530 Speaker 1: British public. This is a cautionary conversation with me Tim 182 00:12:07,610 --> 00:12:10,530 Speaker 1: Harford and my guest Alice Fines. We're talking about the 183 00:12:10,570 --> 00:12:14,370 Speaker 1: new podcast Bad Women The Blackout Ripper and we'll be 184 00:12:14,410 --> 00:12:30,090 Speaker 1: back after this short break. Hi, we're back. I'm talking 185 00:12:30,090 --> 00:12:33,570 Speaker 1: to Alice Fines. One of the things I enjoyed about 186 00:12:33,690 --> 00:12:36,770 Speaker 1: Bad Women was the way that you you weaved together 187 00:12:36,850 --> 00:12:43,770 Speaker 1: these really quite upsetting stories of these attacks with a 188 00:12:43,810 --> 00:12:47,130 Speaker 1: really vivid picture of what life was like in London 189 00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:51,490 Speaker 1: for ordinary people during the Blitz. And there were a 190 00:12:51,530 --> 00:12:52,850 Speaker 1: lot of surprises. For me. There are a lot of 191 00:12:52,850 --> 00:12:54,930 Speaker 1: things I didn't know I was I was surprised, for example, 192 00:12:54,970 --> 00:12:57,650 Speaker 1: by the fact that there was this quite vivid nightlife. 193 00:12:57,930 --> 00:13:00,850 Speaker 1: In the first episode of Bad Women, you're describing this 194 00:13:01,290 --> 00:13:05,090 Speaker 1: date that is clearly going a bit sour, and it's 195 00:13:05,170 --> 00:13:07,250 Speaker 1: very tense. As a listener, you're thinking, Oh, he's going 196 00:13:07,250 --> 00:13:10,010 Speaker 1: to do something terrible. This is really bad. But while 197 00:13:10,050 --> 00:13:13,650 Speaker 1: you're listening to that, and I was riveted, I'm also 198 00:13:13,690 --> 00:13:15,730 Speaker 1: picking up this idea. Well, there's this there's this underground 199 00:13:15,810 --> 00:13:17,970 Speaker 1: club nar Piccadilly Circus and it's a bit of a 200 00:13:18,050 --> 00:13:21,290 Speaker 1: dive and there are sex workers wearing furs, and then 201 00:13:21,330 --> 00:13:23,930 Speaker 1: they go somewhere else. There's the Salted Almond. There's a 202 00:13:23,970 --> 00:13:27,090 Speaker 1: club called the Salted Almond and they have they have whiskey. 203 00:13:26,730 --> 00:13:30,410 Speaker 1: And I knew nothing of this, and I was really 204 00:13:30,410 --> 00:13:32,730 Speaker 1: surprised by the way that these bars and clubs were 205 00:13:32,730 --> 00:13:37,050 Speaker 1: flourishing during the Blitz. Absolutely, nightlife is a really important 206 00:13:37,090 --> 00:13:39,730 Speaker 1: part of both the Blitz spirit, I think, and also 207 00:13:39,850 --> 00:13:44,690 Speaker 1: our series. Nightlife ceases briefly in nineteen forty public places 208 00:13:44,730 --> 00:13:47,970 Speaker 1: empty out, but then people return in droves and it 209 00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:52,090 Speaker 1: resumes kind of in full swing, and London is really 210 00:13:52,130 --> 00:13:55,970 Speaker 1: this melting pot of different people. It's the staging ground 211 00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:59,290 Speaker 1: for war, so you've got soldiers coming in from all 212 00:13:59,290 --> 00:14:05,090 Speaker 1: over Britain, but also from Australia, France, Poland, from Canada, 213 00:14:05,170 --> 00:14:08,530 Speaker 1: eventually also from the US, and young women come to 214 00:14:08,530 --> 00:14:11,090 Speaker 1: the city to meet these soldiers and have a good time. 215 00:14:11,250 --> 00:14:14,410 Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right. The jazz clubs that dive bars 216 00:14:15,330 --> 00:14:19,930 Speaker 1: are raucous. They're full of these young people who don't 217 00:14:19,930 --> 00:14:22,970 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen. They are aware that they're 218 00:14:23,010 --> 00:14:25,050 Speaker 1: here for a good time, they don't know if they're 219 00:14:25,090 --> 00:14:27,850 Speaker 1: here for a long time, and this kind of hedonism 220 00:14:27,890 --> 00:14:31,490 Speaker 1: ins use. There are also other venues that stay open too, 221 00:14:31,570 --> 00:14:34,050 Speaker 1: So there's the Windmill Theater, which is this kind of 222 00:14:34,090 --> 00:14:41,410 Speaker 1: celebrated variety of venue. We are in Soho's Windmill Theater. 223 00:14:42,410 --> 00:14:46,770 Speaker 1: This establishment has two claims to fame. One the show 224 00:14:46,850 --> 00:14:49,130 Speaker 1: here went on even at the height of the bombing 225 00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:53,650 Speaker 1: when many other theaters were dark. And two, it's the 226 00:14:53,690 --> 00:14:57,610 Speaker 1: only place in town to see naked female flesh. It 227 00:14:57,690 --> 00:15:01,170 Speaker 1: puts on a kind of glorified burlesque called revou deville. 228 00:15:01,330 --> 00:15:05,050 Speaker 1: Time magazine's Walter Greatneth tells his American readers for an 229 00:15:05,050 --> 00:15:08,970 Speaker 1: audience composed mostly of bald headed businessmen from the proper, 230 00:15:10,610 --> 00:15:14,610 Speaker 1: the Windmill avoids the prudish censorship laws by arguing that 231 00:15:14,690 --> 00:15:20,530 Speaker 1: its shows aren't pornography but art. My classical statues, the 232 00:15:20,690 --> 00:15:25,610 Speaker 1: naked women on stage stand stock still. Any movement will 233 00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:28,810 Speaker 1: break the spell and see the show close down for 234 00:15:28,890 --> 00:15:33,730 Speaker 1: obsentative And this is a really interesting time, I think 235 00:15:34,130 --> 00:15:37,210 Speaker 1: to be a woman. You draw the contrast between what 236 00:15:37,290 --> 00:15:39,290 Speaker 1: it was like to be a woman in the late 237 00:15:39,370 --> 00:15:42,930 Speaker 1: Victorian era, all the repressions, the lack of rights when 238 00:15:43,050 --> 00:15:45,730 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper was active, and then the women now 239 00:15:45,730 --> 00:15:47,290 Speaker 1: have the right to vote, They have a lot of 240 00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:50,770 Speaker 1: rights they didn't have, but there are still lots of inequalities, 241 00:15:50,850 --> 00:15:54,530 Speaker 1: lots of injustices, and the war has just thrown everything 242 00:15:54,570 --> 00:15:56,610 Speaker 1: up in the air all over again. Lots of opportunities 243 00:15:56,610 --> 00:15:59,650 Speaker 1: for women and also lots of threats. Women in particular 244 00:15:59,690 --> 00:16:03,010 Speaker 1: are entering spaces that they hadn't entered before and meeting 245 00:16:03,050 --> 00:16:05,970 Speaker 1: people that they hadn't met before. That extends to things 246 00:16:05,970 --> 00:16:10,130 Speaker 1: like conscription, women entering the forces. But also in this 247 00:16:10,210 --> 00:16:13,170 Speaker 1: influx of people and the change in social milieu, there's 248 00:16:13,170 --> 00:16:16,050 Speaker 1: a lot of short term relationships, very high turnover of people. 249 00:16:16,090 --> 00:16:18,770 Speaker 1: So the sexual politics of it are also really interesting. 250 00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:21,250 Speaker 1: You know, as you say, everything just turns on its 251 00:16:21,250 --> 00:16:24,650 Speaker 1: head for women. Yes, and the phrase good time girls 252 00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:27,810 Speaker 1: and naughty girls, and so one of these various euphemisms 253 00:16:27,850 --> 00:16:30,330 Speaker 1: for well, actually, I'm not sure exactly what they are 254 00:16:30,450 --> 00:16:34,570 Speaker 1: euphemisms for, and perhaps the ambiguity is deliberate. I think 255 00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:40,290 Speaker 1: the ambiguity is telling good time girls are women who 256 00:16:40,370 --> 00:16:43,490 Speaker 1: could be seen as working in the sex trade. They 257 00:16:43,730 --> 00:16:47,330 Speaker 1: are kind of selling sex in quite a casual way. 258 00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:49,890 Speaker 1: Some of them come to London for a good time. 259 00:16:50,250 --> 00:16:53,530 Speaker 1: They might end up trading sex for a meal or 260 00:16:53,570 --> 00:16:57,010 Speaker 1: an eight in a hotel. That is quite distinct from 261 00:16:57,130 --> 00:17:00,970 Speaker 1: the more organized forms of selling sex. The women inferred 262 00:17:01,050 --> 00:17:06,930 Speaker 1: that you mentioned in Piccadilly are usually more professional sex workers. Actually, 263 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:08,690 Speaker 1: I don't think they would even refer to themselves as 264 00:17:08,690 --> 00:17:10,970 Speaker 1: sex work, because that's what we would call them now. Yeah, 265 00:17:11,010 --> 00:17:13,450 Speaker 1: and of course it's easy to forget, but they would 266 00:17:13,450 --> 00:17:16,530 Speaker 1: not have forgotten for a moment that there's a war 267 00:17:16,610 --> 00:17:20,490 Speaker 1: on and all of the sexual politics, the nude tableaus, 268 00:17:20,570 --> 00:17:24,450 Speaker 1: the art at the Windmill Theater, the Piccadilly nightclubs and 269 00:17:24,610 --> 00:17:27,890 Speaker 1: dive bars, all of this is happening during a blackout. 270 00:17:28,410 --> 00:17:30,890 Speaker 1: It's pitch black outside and there are bombers coming over 271 00:17:30,970 --> 00:17:32,890 Speaker 1: and the Nazis are trying to kill people. They're dropping 272 00:17:32,930 --> 00:17:36,730 Speaker 1: bombs on London the whole time. It's really extraordinary, and 273 00:17:37,010 --> 00:17:40,650 Speaker 1: dancing is in that context really popular. It's a huge 274 00:17:40,690 --> 00:17:45,050 Speaker 1: morale booster. We see that even today in CREMENTIUK, Ukraine. 275 00:17:45,050 --> 00:17:49,690 Speaker 1: We're seeing salsa classes continuing under arraid and blackout conditions, 276 00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:53,770 Speaker 1: illuminated by people's phone torches. And I can understand that. 277 00:17:54,210 --> 00:17:56,450 Speaker 1: You know, when times are bleak and when times are dark. 278 00:17:56,490 --> 00:17:59,250 Speaker 1: I think we cling to what makes the struggle to 279 00:17:59,290 --> 00:18:03,050 Speaker 1: survive feel worth it. So people are going out dancing 280 00:18:03,250 --> 00:18:06,850 Speaker 1: in droves in London's nightlife district, the West End, and 281 00:18:07,010 --> 00:18:11,650 Speaker 1: one place that's really popular is this illustrious club called 282 00:18:11,650 --> 00:18:14,490 Speaker 1: the Cafe to Parry, which is by Leicester Square. It's 283 00:18:14,490 --> 00:18:19,090 Speaker 1: a subterranean joint. It's got this famous sweeping staircase. It 284 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:24,210 Speaker 1: previously was frequented by aristocrats, but now quote unquote ordinary 285 00:18:24,210 --> 00:18:28,770 Speaker 1: people are going there too, and they get some of 286 00:18:28,810 --> 00:18:33,770 Speaker 1: the trendiest bands. In one night in spring nineteen forty one, 287 00:18:34,330 --> 00:18:37,330 Speaker 1: there's a really famous all black swing band playing. It 288 00:18:37,330 --> 00:18:39,850 Speaker 1: builds itself as Britain's only all black swing band that 289 00:18:40,010 --> 00:18:44,530 Speaker 1: is fronted by this very glamorous guy called Snake Hips Johnson, 290 00:18:44,570 --> 00:18:48,090 Speaker 1: who's a dancer, and so Snake Hips is dancing in 291 00:18:48,130 --> 00:18:51,530 Speaker 1: front of the crowd and conducting the band, and the 292 00:18:51,570 --> 00:18:54,450 Speaker 1: Air Aid sirens start to sound, and he tells them, 293 00:18:54,530 --> 00:18:56,930 Speaker 1: you can go to the shelters further below ground, but 294 00:18:56,970 --> 00:18:58,770 Speaker 1: you'll miss the time of your life if you do. 295 00:19:00,010 --> 00:19:03,690 Speaker 1: In the skies high above the club, the cruil German 296 00:19:03,730 --> 00:19:08,930 Speaker 1: bomber let's go. It's deadly cargo. The bombs, especially designed 297 00:19:08,930 --> 00:19:13,930 Speaker 1: to demolished buildings, hurtle earthwards, shrieking and whistling as they 298 00:19:13,970 --> 00:19:17,570 Speaker 1: pick up speed. Even the keenest of ears would have 299 00:19:17,650 --> 00:19:20,930 Speaker 1: missed their sound, for Snake Hips and his orchestra have 300 00:19:21,250 --> 00:19:26,410 Speaker 1: just launched into another number. A one hundred and ten 301 00:19:26,450 --> 00:19:29,650 Speaker 1: pound bomb tears through the roof the cinema above the 302 00:19:29,690 --> 00:19:33,530 Speaker 1: Catholic De Marie, and it keeps going, slicing through the floor, 303 00:19:33,730 --> 00:19:37,290 Speaker 1: half the floor, until it reaches the balcony right above 304 00:19:37,370 --> 00:19:42,250 Speaker 1: the heads of snake Hips Johnson and his guitarist Shoe Denise. 305 00:19:42,730 --> 00:19:49,770 Speaker 1: I can't describe the sound it and everything went black. 306 00:19:50,130 --> 00:19:53,090 Speaker 1: I tried to stand up. I thought I was uninjured. 307 00:19:53,450 --> 00:19:55,290 Speaker 1: The next thing I know, I just fell down again. 308 00:19:55,690 --> 00:19:59,970 Speaker 1: I looked down and saw a nasty mess where my 309 00:20:00,050 --> 00:20:04,090 Speaker 1: leg had been. It was chaos, screams and shouts, and 310 00:20:04,290 --> 00:20:10,490 Speaker 1: dust and dirt. Joe Denise is horrifically wounded. Snake Hips 311 00:20:10,530 --> 00:20:15,530 Speaker 1: Johnson is killed outright. The oddities of bomb blasts mean 312 00:20:15,570 --> 00:20:19,130 Speaker 1: that musicians to their left and right are entirely unscathed, 313 00:20:19,650 --> 00:20:23,610 Speaker 1: while others have been cut to ribbons. Some dancers haven't 314 00:20:23,650 --> 00:20:25,810 Speaker 1: so much as a hair out of place, but are 315 00:20:25,890 --> 00:20:30,490 Speaker 1: stone dead. Others still have been stripped of their clothes 316 00:20:30,730 --> 00:20:35,570 Speaker 1: but have survived. Around thirty four staff and guests are dead. 317 00:20:37,010 --> 00:20:39,290 Speaker 1: An off duty nurse does her best to help them, 318 00:20:39,290 --> 00:20:43,130 Speaker 1: many wounded, for aside from the bomb's own shrapnel, flying 319 00:20:43,210 --> 00:20:46,930 Speaker 1: glasses and shattered wine bottles, of inflicted terrible injuries on 320 00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:50,730 Speaker 1: the revelers. The woman is hailed as a hero for 321 00:20:50,810 --> 00:20:55,330 Speaker 1: her efforts. However, there is a telling PostScript. In an 322 00:20:55,410 --> 00:20:59,490 Speaker 1: article printed in many newspapers, the young nurse had little 323 00:20:59,530 --> 00:21:01,770 Speaker 1: to say about her work, but mentioned that while she 324 00:21:01,890 --> 00:21:06,050 Speaker 1: was helping the injured, someone ransacked her handback, taking from 325 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:09,970 Speaker 1: it objects of sentimental value, including a fountain pen. The 326 00:21:10,090 --> 00:21:14,930 Speaker 1: selfless nurse has been robbed corpses too, have been stripped 327 00:21:14,930 --> 00:21:18,650 Speaker 1: of watches, wedding rings, and jewelry. And I think that 328 00:21:19,290 --> 00:21:23,170 Speaker 1: brings us to something quite interesting about the Blitz spirit 329 00:21:23,250 --> 00:21:25,050 Speaker 1: and how we tend to think of the Blitz spirit. 330 00:21:25,770 --> 00:21:30,490 Speaker 1: We tend to think that when civilization is interrupted, our 331 00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:33,530 Speaker 1: baser instincts will emerge, sort of Lord of the Flies style, 332 00:21:33,690 --> 00:21:37,610 Speaker 1: and something much more primitive will replace our culture, which 333 00:21:37,650 --> 00:21:39,570 Speaker 1: is not true. I mean, I've been pushing hard against 334 00:21:39,650 --> 00:21:43,050 Speaker 1: this is not true. People do band together, people do 335 00:21:43,050 --> 00:21:46,170 Speaker 1: do heroic things. It is extremely difficult to bomb a 336 00:21:46,210 --> 00:21:49,010 Speaker 1: population into submission, and the same is true after hurricanes, 337 00:21:49,050 --> 00:21:53,170 Speaker 1: after earthquakes. Civilization doesn't have this thin veneer that cracks 338 00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:57,730 Speaker 1: people pull together and yet totally. I mean, in disasters 339 00:21:57,850 --> 00:22:00,930 Speaker 1: we do see examples of behavior that we would consider 340 00:22:01,290 --> 00:22:03,610 Speaker 1: to be really positive, that show human beings in a 341 00:22:03,690 --> 00:22:07,050 Speaker 1: great light. But I think in the case of the Blitz, 342 00:22:08,170 --> 00:22:12,170 Speaker 1: we overremper size those behaviors in our retelling of it. 343 00:22:12,250 --> 00:22:17,610 Speaker 1: We've allowed those to whitewash the bigger picture. And the 344 00:22:17,610 --> 00:22:22,490 Speaker 1: bigger picture is that conditions of war make life really 345 00:22:22,530 --> 00:22:27,690 Speaker 1: really hard for ordinary people in really unfair ways, something 346 00:22:27,730 --> 00:22:29,850 Speaker 1: we see in the case of the Second World War, 347 00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:32,090 Speaker 1: in the Blitz, and in our series The Black our 348 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:36,650 Speaker 1: ripper is that ordinary people are drawn into these kind 349 00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:41,450 Speaker 1: of illicit underground economies. Black markets, I think, are something 350 00:22:41,730 --> 00:22:44,250 Speaker 1: we do associate with the Blitz, but we tend to 351 00:22:44,290 --> 00:22:47,930 Speaker 1: think of the caricature of the black market here. We 352 00:22:48,050 --> 00:22:51,130 Speaker 1: don't tend to think of people like lone mothers being 353 00:22:51,210 --> 00:22:55,210 Speaker 1: drawn into the orbit of thieves and gangsters. One example 354 00:22:55,290 --> 00:22:58,250 Speaker 1: we look at in our series is a case of 355 00:22:58,250 --> 00:23:02,010 Speaker 1: twelve lawn dresses who are charged with stealing military blankets 356 00:23:02,050 --> 00:23:06,610 Speaker 1: to make coats to then sell on. They aren't humorous caricatures. 357 00:23:06,930 --> 00:23:10,450 Speaker 1: They also aren't criminal masterminds. They're ordinary women who have 358 00:23:10,570 --> 00:23:13,770 Speaker 1: probably lost their breadwinners to the war, their husbands have 359 00:23:13,810 --> 00:23:15,610 Speaker 1: had to go off and fight. They still have to 360 00:23:15,650 --> 00:23:18,010 Speaker 1: support their children in the context of rationing, and they're 361 00:23:18,010 --> 00:23:21,010 Speaker 1: making decisions with what's in front of them about how 362 00:23:21,050 --> 00:23:25,410 Speaker 1: to survive. I mean, it's it's so sad, it's pathetic almost, 363 00:23:25,450 --> 00:23:28,010 Speaker 1: the idea that you're stealing military blankets and you're using 364 00:23:28,050 --> 00:23:30,610 Speaker 1: it to make clothes and that's you and that's your living. 365 00:23:30,770 --> 00:23:32,890 Speaker 1: And the other thing that I think we really don't 366 00:23:32,930 --> 00:23:36,130 Speaker 1: tend to remember when we think about this time is 367 00:23:36,170 --> 00:23:41,770 Speaker 1: that the government introduces legal machinery that actually means that 368 00:23:42,130 --> 00:23:45,250 Speaker 1: it's much easier for ordinary people to be criminalized and 369 00:23:45,290 --> 00:23:49,290 Speaker 1: then to suffer all the repercussions of criminalization. So one 370 00:23:49,370 --> 00:23:52,970 Speaker 1: example of that is something called Regulation thirty three B, 371 00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:57,450 Speaker 1: which is a response to the rise in rates of 372 00:23:57,570 --> 00:24:01,170 Speaker 1: venereal disease among soldiers. Regulation thirty three B makes it 373 00:24:01,250 --> 00:24:04,970 Speaker 1: compulsory for people to be examined and receive treatment. But 374 00:24:05,690 --> 00:24:09,210 Speaker 1: even though the spread of venereal disease takes two it's 375 00:24:09,210 --> 00:24:13,130 Speaker 1: primarily women who bear the brunt of this. And we 376 00:24:13,250 --> 00:24:16,970 Speaker 1: look at the example of a young woman called Dorothy Baldry. 377 00:24:17,010 --> 00:24:19,370 Speaker 1: She's also a lone mother trying to cope on her own, 378 00:24:19,890 --> 00:24:22,690 Speaker 1: who is hauled up in court because she's not attended 379 00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:27,850 Speaker 1: her mandatory medical examinations. Someone has labeled her as probably 380 00:24:27,850 --> 00:24:30,850 Speaker 1: having given the manial disease, and she's been required to 381 00:24:30,890 --> 00:24:33,810 Speaker 1: go and see a doctor. She can't get the time 382 00:24:33,850 --> 00:24:36,090 Speaker 1: off work to go and see this doctor as often 383 00:24:36,170 --> 00:24:39,610 Speaker 1: is required, and so, as I said, she's hauled up 384 00:24:39,650 --> 00:24:42,770 Speaker 1: in court and she's fined. After she's convicted, she can't 385 00:24:42,810 --> 00:24:46,010 Speaker 1: get further work. Therefore she can't pay the fine, and 386 00:24:46,090 --> 00:24:49,450 Speaker 1: she ends up in prison and all of that in 387 00:24:49,490 --> 00:24:54,490 Speaker 1: the name of protecting the British people. And this is 388 00:24:55,250 --> 00:24:58,770 Speaker 1: a time that we now label the people of this 389 00:24:58,850 --> 00:25:02,250 Speaker 1: time the greatest generation. These are the people we look 390 00:25:02,330 --> 00:25:05,170 Speaker 1: up to and we're supposed to emulate. Do you think 391 00:25:05,210 --> 00:25:10,570 Speaker 1: that the idea of the greatest generation is simple? I 392 00:25:10,650 --> 00:25:15,730 Speaker 1: certainly think that we have a very simplistic picture of 393 00:25:15,770 --> 00:25:19,970 Speaker 1: this greatest generation. So these are the people who were 394 00:25:20,010 --> 00:25:22,650 Speaker 1: born in the first part of the twentieth century and 395 00:25:22,850 --> 00:25:27,490 Speaker 1: who persevered through economic depression and war to build a 396 00:25:27,530 --> 00:25:30,690 Speaker 1: better world. That's this idea of the Greatest generation, right, 397 00:25:31,130 --> 00:25:34,810 Speaker 1: and we consider them to be heroes. The problem is 398 00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:38,530 Speaker 1: we're very attached to binaries of good and evil, I think, 399 00:25:39,210 --> 00:25:43,890 Speaker 1: but the reality is that heroism is about conforming to 400 00:25:44,130 --> 00:25:48,730 Speaker 1: a very specific set of traits which are rooted in 401 00:25:49,010 --> 00:25:51,250 Speaker 1: cultural values at a given moment in time and in 402 00:25:51,290 --> 00:25:54,810 Speaker 1: the context of war. That might be courage, but it 403 00:25:54,890 --> 00:26:03,810 Speaker 1: might also be violence. Heroism doesn't automatically mean you embody, kindness, empathy, care, 404 00:26:04,130 --> 00:26:07,530 Speaker 1: any other traits that we might consider to be positive 405 00:26:07,690 --> 00:26:12,450 Speaker 1: examples of a few anity. And I think in venerating 406 00:26:12,530 --> 00:26:16,010 Speaker 1: this Greatest generation and sort of idolizing them in this 407 00:26:16,090 --> 00:26:20,890 Speaker 1: kind of blanket way without discrimination, we lose sight of 408 00:26:20,930 --> 00:26:24,250 Speaker 1: the fact that some of the people serving alongside them 409 00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:29,450 Speaker 1: report really terrible experiences. And something we look at in 410 00:26:29,490 --> 00:26:34,290 Speaker 1: the series is women serving in the armed forces who 411 00:26:34,650 --> 00:26:40,410 Speaker 1: experienced assault, sexual assault, attempted rape, rape. In their letters 412 00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:43,890 Speaker 1: and diary entries from the time, some of them describe 413 00:26:44,250 --> 00:26:46,730 Speaker 1: men forcing themselves on them, men who make them feel 414 00:26:46,810 --> 00:26:50,730 Speaker 1: very threatened. And you see it in the girl's letters, 415 00:26:50,770 --> 00:26:54,930 Speaker 1: like Gene, who's just retally wonderful. She goes away aged eighteen. 416 00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:57,330 Speaker 1: She's been in a provincial girl's boarding school. She's sort 417 00:26:57,330 --> 00:26:59,890 Speaker 1: of you know what she calls, sort of genteel squire archy. 418 00:27:00,370 --> 00:27:03,290 Speaker 1: She grew up in Lancashire. She's hardly knows about the 419 00:27:03,330 --> 00:27:05,490 Speaker 1: birds and the bees, and out she is and these 420 00:27:05,530 --> 00:27:08,330 Speaker 1: wonderful letters home to her sister Pat where she's really 421 00:27:08,330 --> 00:27:10,730 Speaker 1: frank about joined Debonne in a bit of whiskey in 422 00:27:10,730 --> 00:27:13,530 Speaker 1: her cupboard, and she's doing pretty intense work. She's a 423 00:27:13,570 --> 00:27:16,050 Speaker 1: code cipher and she's moved from Egypt to Italy. She's 424 00:27:16,530 --> 00:27:20,450 Speaker 1: managing on our own. But she gets utterly fed up, 425 00:27:20,450 --> 00:27:24,850 Speaker 1: in fact, demoralized when men, especially in librated men drunk 426 00:27:24,850 --> 00:27:28,690 Speaker 1: men constantly pestering her. How do you shake them off? 427 00:27:28,690 --> 00:27:31,090 Speaker 1: I mean, here's an extract from one of her letters. 428 00:27:31,210 --> 00:27:33,450 Speaker 1: I do wish that men didn't always assume that if 429 00:27:33,490 --> 00:27:35,810 Speaker 1: they take you out, they can kiss you whenever they choose. 430 00:27:36,330 --> 00:27:38,650 Speaker 1: Last night, I went with a naval type to the club. 431 00:27:38,930 --> 00:27:41,410 Speaker 1: He started getting gooey and I had a hell of 432 00:27:41,450 --> 00:27:44,370 Speaker 1: a time on the way home. But ask them now, 433 00:27:44,410 --> 00:27:46,490 Speaker 1: and we do talk to a couple of veterans in 434 00:27:46,770 --> 00:27:50,610 Speaker 1: the show, and they're very reluctant to say anything negative 435 00:27:50,650 --> 00:27:53,570 Speaker 1: about the men they served alongside. They don't want to 436 00:27:53,650 --> 00:27:58,090 Speaker 1: undermine our heroes. Yeah, oh, it's not very British to 437 00:27:58,130 --> 00:28:00,890 Speaker 1: make a first I guess, absolutely not. And it's also 438 00:28:01,010 --> 00:28:05,690 Speaker 1: true in civilian life. So another story we look at 439 00:28:06,130 --> 00:28:10,450 Speaker 1: is this example of a woman called Doris Staples, who's 440 00:28:10,450 --> 00:28:14,970 Speaker 1: a dressmaker. She lives in Henley and she is dating 441 00:28:15,090 --> 00:28:20,530 Speaker 1: a American gi Private John Waters, and they go out 442 00:28:20,530 --> 00:28:24,930 Speaker 1: for about six months. He is quite controlling, quite possessive, 443 00:28:25,970 --> 00:28:28,810 Speaker 1: and he accuses her of seeing other men, of sleeping 444 00:28:28,810 --> 00:28:31,170 Speaker 1: with other men. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. It 445 00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:34,490 Speaker 1: kind of doesn't matter. She tries to leave him and 446 00:28:34,610 --> 00:28:38,010 Speaker 1: he kills her. Doris turns her back on the soldier 447 00:28:38,370 --> 00:28:41,450 Speaker 1: and steps into the shop, but jamming his foot in 448 00:28:41,530 --> 00:28:45,410 Speaker 1: the door to stop her closing it on him, Waters 449 00:28:45,650 --> 00:28:55,650 Speaker 1: barges his way inside. What's interesting and what's really striking 450 00:28:55,690 --> 00:29:00,210 Speaker 1: and sad is that the witnesses in the town of Henley, 451 00:29:00,290 --> 00:29:03,410 Speaker 1: who are called on after this death and and who 452 00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:06,930 Speaker 1: gave evidence in the court martial, talk about how well 453 00:29:07,050 --> 00:29:10,890 Speaker 1: liked the killer Johnny Waters was, how popular he was 454 00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:13,130 Speaker 1: in the town, and how Doris well, she was a 455 00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:16,410 Speaker 1: bit promiscuous, she was rude to Johnny, so she probably 456 00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:19,290 Speaker 1: kind of deserved it. And there's very much this sense 457 00:29:19,330 --> 00:29:22,970 Speaker 1: that even though he's a murderer, this man in uniform 458 00:29:23,290 --> 00:29:26,530 Speaker 1: can do no wrong. I sent the case notes on 459 00:29:26,530 --> 00:29:30,410 Speaker 1: this story to a criminologist, professor Jane Unkton Smith. She's 460 00:29:30,410 --> 00:29:33,810 Speaker 1: an expert in homicide but also in controlling relationships and 461 00:29:33,930 --> 00:29:36,410 Speaker 1: how they can end in murder. She said that she 462 00:29:36,570 --> 00:29:39,410 Speaker 1: absolutely recognized its behavior and it might as well have 463 00:29:39,490 --> 00:29:42,730 Speaker 1: been a case today. Him turning up at her work 464 00:29:43,210 --> 00:29:47,650 Speaker 1: is absolutely typical of a controlling partner. What are you 465 00:29:47,730 --> 00:29:51,130 Speaker 1: doing when I'm not there? I want to exert my 466 00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:53,810 Speaker 1: authority on this relationship. I want you to know that 467 00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:57,530 Speaker 1: you're being watched. I need to know what you're doing. 468 00:29:58,010 --> 00:30:01,610 Speaker 1: I need to let everyone else know that I own you. 469 00:30:02,170 --> 00:30:08,930 Speaker 1: There's that kind of paranoid sexual jealousy and humiliation allegedly 470 00:30:09,530 --> 00:30:12,410 Speaker 1: is the thing that men are most afraid of. Women 471 00:30:12,450 --> 00:30:14,970 Speaker 1: are most afraid of violence and being killed. Men are 472 00:30:15,330 --> 00:30:19,050 Speaker 1: far more frightened of humiliation. So if you leave them, 473 00:30:19,650 --> 00:30:23,570 Speaker 1: you're pushing that button. Alice finds on Caution Retales, we 474 00:30:23,690 --> 00:30:27,170 Speaker 1: like to try to learn the lessons of the mistakes 475 00:30:27,170 --> 00:30:31,730 Speaker 1: of the past. With Halie Rubinhold on the Bad Women Podcast, 476 00:30:31,850 --> 00:30:37,130 Speaker 1: you've been investigating the experience of these women, the lives 477 00:30:37,210 --> 00:30:41,130 Speaker 1: they lead, and in some cases, of course, they're deaths 478 00:30:41,290 --> 00:30:43,570 Speaker 1: at the hands of the Blackout Ripper. What are the 479 00:30:43,650 --> 00:30:46,010 Speaker 1: lessons that you would like people to take away from 480 00:30:46,050 --> 00:30:50,650 Speaker 1: the series? Beware of binaries. The picture is usually much 481 00:30:50,690 --> 00:30:53,770 Speaker 1: more complicated than we'd like it to be. In the 482 00:30:53,850 --> 00:30:57,450 Speaker 1: case of the Blitz, we celebrate it as this triumph 483 00:30:57,450 --> 00:31:00,850 Speaker 1: of humanity, and the reality is there are many more 484 00:31:00,890 --> 00:31:03,650 Speaker 1: gray areas in there than we'd really care to admit. 485 00:31:04,730 --> 00:31:07,530 Speaker 1: And the other thing that's important is be aware of 486 00:31:07,570 --> 00:31:12,050 Speaker 1: who gets to speak, who doesn't, and what the people 487 00:31:12,410 --> 00:31:15,010 Speaker 1: we ignore might have to say, how might they challenge 488 00:31:15,570 --> 00:31:18,450 Speaker 1: our assumptions and our predominant views. In the case of 489 00:31:18,490 --> 00:31:21,370 Speaker 1: Bad Women and the women we look at in this show, 490 00:31:22,090 --> 00:31:24,810 Speaker 1: so many of them were ignored in their own time, 491 00:31:25,770 --> 00:31:29,250 Speaker 1: and that made them vulnerable to violence. That's fine, Thank 492 00:31:29,290 --> 00:31:33,090 Speaker 1: you very much, thank you. Alice Fines is the co 493 00:31:33,330 --> 00:31:37,370 Speaker 1: creator of Bad Women the blackout Ripper. Cautionary tales will 494 00:31:37,370 --> 00:31:39,730 Speaker 1: be back any day now, and while you wait, you 495 00:31:39,810 --> 00:31:42,610 Speaker 1: might consider listening to Bad Women the blackout Ripper in 496 00:31:42,730 --> 00:32:09,210 Speaker 1: all the usual podcast places. M