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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Stephen Ferdick.

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Speaker 2: I'm the pastor of Elevation Church and this is our podcast.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to thank you for joining us today.

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Speaker 1: Hope this inspires you. Hope it builds your faith.

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Speaker 2: Hope it gives your perspective to see God is moving

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Speaker 2: in your life.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy the message.

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Speaker 2: I am here with New York Times bestselling author Don Miller.

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Speaker 2: Entrepreneur Don Miller, husband Don Miller. I loved the book

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Speaker 2: Scary Close.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I read this book two times, and second

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Speaker 2: time reading it it was just as powerful as the

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Speaker 2: first time, and I thought it would be cool for

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Speaker 2: us to talk about some of the things that you

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Speaker 2: said in the book that resonated so deeply with me

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Speaker 2: about intimacy.

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Speaker 3: Well, the book is about intimacy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's about the fear of, the overcoming the fear of,

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Speaker 4: and the challenges to have intimacy.

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Speaker 2: And you kind of talk about the enemies through the

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Speaker 2: lens of your own crisis of intimate See. Yeah, So

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Speaker 2: I love how you start the book. You're such a

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Speaker 2: vulnerable author. You know, I've told you I love your books,

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Speaker 2: and I like how right at the beginning of the

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Speaker 2: book you're in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. Right,

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Speaker 2: And you say I had to deal with my hang

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Speaker 2: ups or whatever you call them, you basically had to

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Speaker 2: deal with your dysfunction. So take us into that moment.

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Speaker 4: So I got married at forty two, was never married before,

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Speaker 4: dated a bunch and had some great dating relationships and

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Speaker 4: some that were just no good. And they were no good.

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Speaker 4: Really my fault. I had this pattern that I would

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Speaker 4: date a gal. I would basically kind of come in

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Speaker 4: as the rescuer kind of guy. And there's this triangle

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Speaker 4: that psychologists talk about that rescuers are attracted to victims,

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Speaker 4: but then when they get into relationships with them, they

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Speaker 4: resent them, and then they begin to get angry because

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Speaker 4: they resent the factor in a relationship with a victim,

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Speaker 4: and so they begin to oppress them, which further makes

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Speaker 4: them a victim. It's a really weird loop that people

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Speaker 4: can get into. And I found myself into that a

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Speaker 4: couple times. And the last time I was in that,

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Speaker 4: in my late thirties, I broke off an engagement. I'd

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Speaker 4: taken it so far that we had gotten engaged and

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Speaker 4: then got out of it and great gal, but it

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Speaker 4: was probably the most damage that I'd caused sort of

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Speaker 4: someone emotionally and had some friends just coming and say, man,

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Speaker 4: you know, had good enough friends that they would come

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Speaker 4: to me and say, this is a pattern, and you.

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Speaker 3: Got to figure this out.

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Speaker 4: And so I kind of went into a dark place, thought,

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Speaker 4: all right, I'm never gonna get married, I'm bad for people,

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Speaker 4: and blah blah blah and all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 4: And my buddy Bob would call me every once in

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Speaker 4: a while and he would just remind me, you know,

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Speaker 4: you're actually good at relationships. Think about this one, think

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Speaker 4: about you know, your friendships. You're good at it. You

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Speaker 4: just got to figure this thing out. And he kind

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Speaker 4: of helped me through this season of you know, just

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Speaker 4: in relationship because my career was going great and you know,

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Speaker 4: these weren't like moral failing kind of stuff, you know,

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Speaker 4: it was just it was just like codependency and all

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Speaker 4: this stuff that I even know existed. And ended up

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Speaker 4: at a place called on Site Workshops, which is a

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Speaker 4: it's a it's kind of a therapeutic retreat center outside

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Speaker 4: of Nashville, about an hour outside of Nashville, and in

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Speaker 4: seven days you're supposed to get nine months of therapy

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Speaker 4: and all my songwriter friends loved going there and helped

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Speaker 4: them with their career.

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Speaker 3: And I thought, well, I'll go. And it was eye opening.

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Speaker 4: I mean, they explained so many of the things, the

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Speaker 4: patterns that I had in my relationships that were causing

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Speaker 4: dysfunction and causing her pain and me pain, and.

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Speaker 3: Came out of there. And it's not like I was fixed.

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Speaker 4: But I knew I knew what was wrong and could

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Speaker 4: start building healthier relationships. And then right after that, and

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Speaker 4: not right of that, about a year after that, Betsy

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Speaker 4: and I met, and I was scared to death because

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Speaker 4: I thought, you know, I really liked this girl. I

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Speaker 4: really do feel different. I feel like I've healed a

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Speaker 4: lot and transformed and changed.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know.

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Speaker 4: If I just I hope it's true. I hope I

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Speaker 4: don't blow this one too. And we kept getting to

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Speaker 4: know each other. She's this really healthy, amazing gal, and

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Speaker 4: start of dating, and I moved to d C for

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Speaker 4: about eight months to court her if you will or whatever,

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Speaker 4: and and just it never became dramatic, and I'm like, wow,

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Speaker 4: it's possible, like you can actually transform as a human being.

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Speaker 4: And so it came time to write another book, The

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Speaker 4: publisher was kind of calling me and saying, what's it going.

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Speaker 3: To be on?

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Speaker 4: I thought, I think I'll start with this falling apart

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Speaker 4: and end.

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Speaker 3: With this wedding, and you know.

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Speaker 4: That's a beautiful story, and so that's what that's what

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Speaker 4: the book has come out of.

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Speaker 2: I mean, did you really get to a point of

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Speaker 2: thinking I am.

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Speaker 3: Bad for people? Yes?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's you know, some of it was

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Speaker 4: stuff that I needed to work on, you know, stuff

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Speaker 4: that you know, not bad for people, but bad in

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Speaker 4: this context of relationships. Something's going on and I'm not

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Speaker 4: I'm not leaving these people better than I found them.

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Speaker 2: Is that because you're so good at being on a

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Speaker 2: stage or writing?

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Speaker 1: Was it hard for you to Yeah.

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Speaker 4: There's a little bit of my personality that that you know,

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Speaker 4: you know, I really pride myself on being authentic and vulnerable,

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Speaker 4: and I realized that part of me priding myself on

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Speaker 4: being authentic and vulnerable was going into a cabin for

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Speaker 4: six weeks and writing something that made me look very

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Speaker 4: authentic and vulnerable.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's the least authentic in the world.

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Speaker 1: That's actings.

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Speaker 3: You're acting like you're not an.

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Speaker 2: Actor, A vulnerable vulnerability.

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Speaker 3: I want to say it like a preacher.

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Speaker 4: So but anytime we're hiding anything, it's all about fear,

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Speaker 4: fear of being owned, fear of being rejected, fear of

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Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff. And that's all intimacy is.

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Speaker 4: It's just is trusting somebody else to hopefully not hurt you.

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Speaker 4: That's all it is. And fear of intimacy is just

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Speaker 4: like that person could hurt me. And so I had

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Speaker 4: to learn not to do that. And Betsy proved to

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Speaker 4: be the most amazing companion. And I mean the first

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Speaker 4: time we went out, I laid it all out. Can

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Speaker 4: you imagine like the very first you know, date, if

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Speaker 4: you will, You're like, yeah, I just got out of

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Speaker 4: like psychological rehab because I've wreacked so many girls' lives

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Speaker 4: and it's been really hard. And I told myself it

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Speaker 4: wouldn't date for six months, and now six months is

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Speaker 4: over and I'd love to date you.

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Speaker 1: What kind of I think, excused herself. Betsy sounds like

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Speaker 1: a special Betsy had been It.

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Speaker 4: Was such like guys who would never say that. She thought,

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Speaker 4: all right, I'll give you a month, you know, give

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Speaker 4: you a loth and then it just turned into something

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Speaker 4: really healthy and good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like endearing to her that you would

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Speaker 2: say that.

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Speaker 4: I just think it wasn't a movie. I mean, it

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Speaker 4: really wasn't a play, right it was. It wasn't alive,

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Speaker 4: you know. It was like, if you're going to get

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Speaker 4: into this, you got to know not been great at

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Speaker 4: this in the past, but I really want to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I told the church and one of the messages

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Speaker 2: that I preached in this series the other half. You

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Speaker 2: know a great dating line that I read somewhere. If

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Speaker 2: you want to get a really good dating line that

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Speaker 2: predicts the successive marriage, it would be.

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Speaker 3: So, what kind of crazy here are you?

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Speaker 2: Because I know you're some category of crazy?

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Speaker 1: What time? That's exactly what you have to find out

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Speaker 1: what the fear was?

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Speaker 2: If fear is the enemy of vulnerability, do I understand

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Speaker 2: you correctly to say that ultimately all of our intimacy

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Speaker 2: is kept it baged by fear.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think so, I think.

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Speaker 4: And there's a lack of trust that you know, fear

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Speaker 4: leads us to not trust somebody.

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Speaker 3: Trust.

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Speaker 4: Lack of trust leads us to not expose ourselves to somebody,

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Speaker 4: and that lack of exposure means we're not going to

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Speaker 4: be known.

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Speaker 3: You know. I think we're really great.

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Speaker 4: A lot of us are really great at letting people

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Speaker 4: know and being impressed by our act, by the character

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Speaker 4: that we put on, and it feels so good. It's like, well,

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Speaker 4: if I do this thing, you know it works.

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Speaker 1: You call it a costume and there it's a costume.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that isn't fulfilling. Now here's the thing everybody

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Speaker 4: watching goes, I don't have that, And I would have

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Speaker 4: told you I don't have that.

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Speaker 3: I would have told you that.

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Speaker 4: The thing about going to this place on site is

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Speaker 4: you turn in your cell phone, you can't give anybody

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Speaker 4: your last name, and you're not allowed to tell anybody

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Speaker 4: what you do for a living. I thought, fine, whatever,

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Speaker 4: and I mean, steven, within ten minutes, I wanted to

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Speaker 4: tell somebody that I was the best selling author, because

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Speaker 4: reality is, it would have come up by now, and

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Speaker 4: now I can't bring it up. And I mean the

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Speaker 4: first three days where I felt like I felt naked,

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Speaker 4: I mean it really was saying, will anybody get to

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Speaker 4: know me and want to be my friend?

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Speaker 3: For just me? And then it's amazing. One night, my little.

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Speaker 4: Group's about forty people at the workshop, but there were

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Speaker 4: ten people in my little groups broke up with Smarkers

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Speaker 4: and we had a game in the parlor over at

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Speaker 4: the Big House and it was a game night. We're

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Speaker 4: playing games and we're only got night four or some

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Speaker 4: kind of comfortable people there with me, but nobody knows

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Speaker 4: what anybody does, nobody knows who anybody is. And I

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Speaker 4: crack a joke and everybody starts laughing, and I crack

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Speaker 4: another Joe and every I mean, I had him rolling,

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Speaker 4: And it was like a drug was going into mind

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Speaker 4: because it was what it was was you matter. Now

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Speaker 4: you're dominating the room, you're entertaining, you matter. Like if

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Speaker 4: I can never be a Christian writer again, I'll just

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Speaker 4: start up a new career as a comedian. And what

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Speaker 4: was amazing is they took away my costume and it

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Speaker 4: took me four days to start building another costume.

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Speaker 3: Four days.

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Speaker 4: So I still went, I don't trust that people aren't

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Speaker 4: gonna are gonna like me for who I actually am.

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Speaker 4: That's I think that's an understandable thing. I don't think

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Speaker 4: there's anything wrong with being a great entertainer. The last

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Speaker 4: thing we want is Steve Martin not being a great entertainer,

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Speaker 4: because we won't have a chance to laugh, or you

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Speaker 4: on stage won't have a chance to be inspired by

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Speaker 4: your sermons.

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Speaker 3: The problem is when we when we use that as a.

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Speaker 4: Costume and and we bring it into intimate situations, and

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Speaker 4: you know, that's got a real short shelf life because

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Speaker 4: you just can't hide who you are for that long.

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Speaker 4: Sooner or later you got to go, all right, here

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Speaker 4: are my flaws. Uh, you're still gonna like me. And

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Speaker 4: I think there's two things. One we have to show

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Speaker 4: those falls, and two we have to choose people who

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Speaker 4: we can trust to actually follow through and like you.

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Speaker 4: So you have to choose because there's a significant part

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Speaker 4: of the population that literally will go, Nope, where did.

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Speaker 1: That come from?

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Speaker 4: For you?

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Speaker 1: The need to wear that armor, to wear that costume to.

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Speaker 4: Be funny, Well, I hope it's just a human thing

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Speaker 4: and it's not just me, right, but you would.

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Speaker 3: Have to go it's you know, there's a there's.

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Speaker 4: A funny passage in Genesis when the fall is described

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Speaker 4: like the fall of man.

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Speaker 3: Uh you know, ev see Apple, Adam, E see Apple.

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Speaker 4: And in that passage God comes back and he talks

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Speaker 4: to this couple who have disobeyed him, and that whole

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Speaker 4: passage is about one thing, because it's I think it's

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Speaker 4: repeated four times. There's one theme to that chapter, and

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Speaker 4: it's who told you you were naked?

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Speaker 3: And there's this idea that.

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Speaker 4: Here's the only human beings in the history of the

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Speaker 4: world so far who walked with God one on one,

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Speaker 4: And if you walk with God one on one, you're

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Speaker 4: that close.

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Speaker 3: There's no separation between you.

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Speaker 4: The only thing I can think is that there's something

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Speaker 4: about this external character that is pouring so much love

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Speaker 4: and acceptance into you just by their presence that you

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Speaker 4: are so not self aware because you're so fulfilled with

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Speaker 4: their love, you don't even know you're naked.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: I don't know about you, but when I'm naked, I

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Speaker 4: know I'm naked. There's never a point where I'm like,

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Speaker 4: what I think I'm naked?

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Speaker 3: Like I always know.

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Speaker 4: I never get to the grocery store and think, Oh

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Speaker 4: I left my wife, Oh I left my clothes. It

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Speaker 4: never happens. That's a weird phenomenon. We're the only creatures

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Speaker 4: on the planet who do that. Wow, the only ones.

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Speaker 4: Nobody else. Like, I saw a poodle in the park

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Speaker 4: the other day wear in a sweater, I thought it

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Speaker 4: happened to them like some poodle ate an apple and

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Speaker 4: now they're wearing clothes. But it's you know, what is

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Speaker 4: it about a separation from God that makes us so

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Speaker 4: unbelievably narcissistic and self aware and afraid that we would

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Speaker 4: cover ourselves. So I think clothes are literally they're they're

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Speaker 4: built around shame.

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Speaker 3: I'm not telling you everybody's educating. I'm not advocating that all.

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Speaker 1: But then there don't know what kind of interview you think.

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Speaker 4: There's all these other clothes that we wear too, you know,

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Speaker 4: personality traits that we've learned, skills that we've developed, and

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Speaker 4: we put on those, you know, to hide whatever vulnerability

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Speaker 4: or hard.

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Speaker 3: Thing we have that is the enemy of intimacy.

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Speaker 2: I love when the guy in the book sat down

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Speaker 2: and drew some circles for you. He said, hey, basically,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you why you need to be funny.

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Speaker 2: And he did this thing do the thing because to

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Speaker 2: me it was he said.

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Speaker 4: It's got named Bill Loki, and Bill's a great psychologist.

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Speaker 4: And he said he just drew a circle and he said,

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Speaker 4: don here's how everybody starts. They start as self. And

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Speaker 4: he wrote the word self inside the circle. And then

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Speaker 4: he said, something happens at a different age for everybody,

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Speaker 4: but it's at a young age. And he said, something

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Speaker 4: happens you, you know, you mess up on the baseball field,

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Speaker 4: or your parents get a divorce, or you you realize

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Speaker 4: that your family's on food stamps, you know, and you

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Speaker 4: got a crush on the guy.

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Speaker 3: Whose dad's president of the bank, you know whatever.

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Speaker 4: And he said, that brings, for the first time in

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Speaker 4: your life something called shame.

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Speaker 3: And he said, so you draw it.

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Speaker 4: He drew a second circle around the first circle and

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Speaker 4: it just it just said shame. And we've all felt it,

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Speaker 4: we all remember it, you know, the first time you

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Speaker 4: probably experienced that. And he said, what happens is shame

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Speaker 4: is really scary. And so he drew a third circle

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Speaker 4: around the shame circle and he just wrote the word costume.

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Speaker 4: And he said, now you learned to wear this thing

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Speaker 4: and it was the thing that you know, and he said,

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Speaker 4: you know, it was that cateristic that you had that

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Speaker 4: you found that other people would clap for you or whatever.

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Speaker 4: They admired you for it. And he said, what would

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Speaker 4: that be? I mean, he didn't have to finish sense

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Speaker 4: and I said, smart, funny. You know these sorts of things,

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Speaker 4: the things that people would say about me, you know

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Speaker 4: if they got to know me, they're saying those things

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Speaker 4: because they got said about me really early on.

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Speaker 3: And I've just honed my craft and my ability to

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Speaker 3: wear that costume.

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Speaker 4: And he said, this is all totally understandable, Like, no

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Speaker 4: judgment against anybody who tries to cover their pain with shame.

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Speaker 3: It's pain, right, he said.

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Speaker 4: The problem is, in order to have intimacy that person,

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Speaker 4: are those people friends, whatever, they got to get to

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Speaker 4: know the self. Because you can't have intimacy with the

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Speaker 4: costume and you can't have intimacy with the shame. Wow,

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Speaker 4: So you got to take off the costume and you

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Speaker 4: got to deal with the shame, and then you can

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Speaker 4: be free to be yourself and then you can have intimacy.

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Speaker 4: What intimacy does is it nurtures us. It recharges us,

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Speaker 4: It gives us strength, It gives us the ability be honestly,

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Speaker 4: gives his ability act with other people, makes us great

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Speaker 4: husbands and wives, makes us great parents, helps us have

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Speaker 4: happy kids and healthy kids. Contributes to that, and it's

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Speaker 4: also how we connect with God, right, I mean, we

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Speaker 4: connect with God. Not God's not impressed with our costume.

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Speaker 4: He's impressed with ourself. That's the part he made right,

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Speaker 4: and we made these other things.

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Speaker 2: I love that I preached on Jacob one time, and

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Speaker 2: Jacob is, of course, you know, dressing in esau Us clothes,

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Speaker 2: pretending to be his brother to get the blessing and

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Speaker 2: it works.

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Speaker 1: Kind of is the weirdest story, weirdest story.

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Speaker 2: Weirdest story, that his mom's dressing him and his brothers.

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Speaker 2: And these are little boys anymore. These are older men,

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Speaker 2: you know, at this point in their life. But I

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Speaker 2: came to the realization that God can't bless who I

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Speaker 2: pretend to be. Yet the things you mentioned, smart, funny,

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Speaker 2: these aren't bad things.

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Speaker 3: No. So where does it go from.

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Speaker 2: Being a gift that I'm smart, that I'm funny, to

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Speaker 2: being something that becomes a costume.

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Speaker 3: How do I know that difference?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think when you're covering yourself up, when they

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Speaker 4: are hidden, things abalue not. I want to be real careful,

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Speaker 4: you know, standing up on stage and airing all your

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Speaker 4: dirty laundry is unwise.

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Speaker 3: There are people who are simply out to get you right.

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Speaker 1: Or sitting on a date and sharing from the beginning.

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Speaker 3: Of all this.

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Speaker 1: It is unwise that I'm six months out of rehab.

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Speaker 3: That's right, Well, that worked for me.

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Speaker 4: You know, not everybody is gets access to yourself. Yourself

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Speaker 4: is valuable, you know, it should be protected. But I

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Speaker 4: think when nobody gets access, that's where there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of trouble. And then trouble starts with just real loneliness,

359
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Speaker 4: you know, that's what it feels like.

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Speaker 2: It you had caution against either extreme to say that

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Speaker 2: if everyone has access, that's a problem.

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Speaker 3: If nobody has access, that's right.

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Speaker 4: And a lot of people have the act of like

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Speaker 4: we talked about earlier, vulnerability or you know, and they

365
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 4: tend to become kind of a shock jock or whatever,

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Speaker 4: and it's a bit of a turn off at some

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Speaker 4: point because people realize that's a costume, like that person's

368
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 4: just so you know, but I think, you know, when

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Speaker 4: you really look at a phenomenally successful folks, there's always

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Speaker 4: almost always a wound that started that journey. And hopefully

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00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:16,879
Speaker 4: the wound started the journey and then there was a

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Speaker 4: healing also, so they got the benefit of that fuel

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Speaker 4: of becoming really funny and famous or really smart and

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Speaker 4: solving problems. In physics or whatever, and then hopefully at

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Speaker 4: some point there was a healing process where they were

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Speaker 4: able to enjoy the gift that they were given but

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Speaker 4: also find intimacy.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like that's been that's.

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Speaker 4: Been my journey. It's been really blessed journey in that way.

380
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Speaker 4: But there was certainly a dark season.

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Speaker 2: No, that's really powerful when you talk about the relational pattern.

382
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Speaker 3: You say my.

383
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Speaker 1: Dating life was a death spiral.

384
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Speaker 2: Codependency and resentment. I wouldn't say that about you, but you.

385
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Speaker 3: Said that about you.

386
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Speaker 2: All right, So if anybody, first of all, feels like

387
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Speaker 2: there's no hope for you, here's a happily married man

388
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Speaker 2: who says my dating life was a death spiral. If

389
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,440
Speaker 2: someone resonates with that in their dating life, relational life,

390
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,680
Speaker 2: how do they break that pattern? What is one thing

391
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Speaker 2: I can do because I'm overwhelmed by a death spiral?

392
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Speaker 2: What's the first move out of the death spiral?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 4: I have to go back and say there were probably

395
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Speaker 4: a few women I day that you could talk to

396
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 4: and say, don was great, give me a break. You know,

397
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 4: it wasn't that bad, but there were some relationships that

398
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,920
Speaker 4: were really tended. Uh, this counselor at on site during

399
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:28,880
Speaker 4: this time gave me this great analogy.

400
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 3: She said, okay, look, she put three.

401
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,480
Speaker 4: Pillows on the floor, like couch pillows, you know that

402
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,919
Speaker 4: people could stand on, and three pillows and she said, okay,

403
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,120
Speaker 4: don you stand on this pillow. And then she had

404
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,120
Speaker 4: some other representative of our groups stand on this pillow. She goes, okay,

405
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,360
Speaker 4: those are your pillows. They represent yourself. Right now, let's

406
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,160
Speaker 4: say this person is really frustrating you in the relationship.

407
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,440
Speaker 4: Your temptation is to cross the middle pillow and get

408
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,120
Speaker 4: onto their pillow and try to change them. She said,

409
00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,159
Speaker 4: that's codependency. She said, that's not your pillow, that's their pillow.

410
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,159
Speaker 4: Now what's the middle pillow mean? And she said, the

411
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 4: middle pillow is the relationship. So you both agree that

412
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,399
Speaker 4: you were going to step on the middle pillow and

413
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,359
Speaker 4: have a relationship, and both of you get equal say

414
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 4: and what you want that relationship to look like. So

415
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 4: everything is really about the relationship. But as soon as

416
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,600
Speaker 4: she steps over on my pill and says I don't

417
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,359
Speaker 4: want you to be this kind of man or whatever,

418
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 4: that's not what she should be saying.

419
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 3: It's something I should think.

420
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 4: What we should both be saying, is is this the

421
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,199
Speaker 4: kind of relationship that I want? So rather than going

422
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 4: over here and saying I'm going to try to change you,

423
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 4: I go is this the kind of relationship that I want?

424
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 4: If not, I step back on my pillow and I

425
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 4: get out of the relationship. But at no point do

426
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 4: I ever get on her pillow. That's codependency. And of

427
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 4: course when you make that commitment in a marriage, you're saying,

428
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,400
Speaker 4: whatever this relationship becomes, I'm in. I've done due diligence

429
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 4: here and I think we're going to be okay, but

430
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,359
Speaker 4: there's no guarantee. But I'm never going to step on

431
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 4: this person's pillow. I was codependent. I was all over

432
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 4: this person's pillow, right. I want you to be this

433
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 4: so that we can have a good relationship.

434
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,920
Speaker 3: And it just never worked. It never worked.

435
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 4: And now, I mean, you know, who knows, ten years,

436
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 4: I'll probably figure out some other flaw that I have

437
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 4: in relationships. But Bets and I just don't try to

438
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 4: change each other. We've never tried to change each other.

439
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 2: So get off the other person's pills.

440
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 3: Get off the other person's pillow.

441
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,879
Speaker 2: Three people and say get off my pillow.

442
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,640
Speaker 4: And they'll tell you this. It's driving you crazy trying

443
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,360
Speaker 4: to change that person. If the relationship isn't working, if

444
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 4: the dating relationship isn't working, even if the business relationship

445
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 4: isn't working, and you're all over there pillow and they're

446
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 4: all over your pillow, get out, get some health for yourself.

447
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 4: They can get some health there's and then ask yourself,

448
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 4: I want somebody that we both love standing on that pillow.

449
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 3: Do you agree with this?

450
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,359
Speaker 2: I was sharing in one of the weeks of this

451
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 2: series about the magnifying glass and the mirror and both

452
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 2: their tools in marriage, because you choose what you magnify

453
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: sometimes when it comes to the issues in a relationship,

454
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 2: marriage or friendship, put down the magnifying glass, pick up

455
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 2: the mirror. I think that's the essence of what Jesus

456
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 2: was saying with the speck in your eye. You've got

457
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 2: a plank in your eye, and there's a speck in

458
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 2: his eye. In terms of in terms of taking responsibility

459
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 2: in a relationship, you say pretty strongly in the book

460
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,159
Speaker 2: that the human lunging can't be met in another person.

461
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 2: The real human longing can't be met through another person,

462
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 2: can't be fulfilled through a human relationship. Whenever I preach

463
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 2: about relationships, people who may not be married in the

464
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,480
Speaker 2: church kind of look at their watches.

465
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 3: How many weeks? Is this the thing I go on?

466
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 2: Because you're going to tell me I don't need somebody.

467
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 2: And you have a wife and all of that. But

468
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 2: you know, you did a lot in your life before

469
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 2: getting married. So you're forty two years old when you

470
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 2: got married, and you had accomplished a lot. You wrote

471
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 2: a book that was read hundreds of thousands of times.

472
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 2: You made kind of an impact on the world. Would

473
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,879
Speaker 2: you speak to that now as someone who maybe has

474
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 2: the credibility to say, I went through that season and

475
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 2: I accomplished some things, and I dealt with the loneliness.

476
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: What is your perspective on what you call the unfulfilled longing?

477
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 4: Well, I'll say this, My years being single were you know,

478
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 4: I don't want to paint them as dark. They were fantastic.

479
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,360
Speaker 4: I traveled the world and got all sorts of stuff done,

480
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 4: and probably stuff that I wouldn't have been able to do

481
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 4: if I were married because I was just devoted to

482
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 4: work and all that kind of stuff. So they were fantastic.

483
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 4: So anybody who's single listening. Just have a blast, I mean,

484
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 4: and get some work done because that's going to slow

485
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 4: down real quick, especially when you have kids.

486
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 3: Right. Yes, but I will say this in terms of.

487
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 4: In terms of you know, you can't be fulfilled by

488
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 4: another person. I agree with that that is true, that

489
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 4: only God can ultimately fulfill us. But I also believe,

490
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 4: you know, there's this myth that Jesus will fulfill every

491
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 4: longing of our heart. I do believe that ultimately at

492
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 4: the wedding, feast of the land and even in today.

493
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 3: But here's how he does it.

494
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 4: Jesus fulfills the longing for water and thirst with water.

495
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 3: Right. Jesus fulfills the longing for food with food. I

496
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 3: love that.

497
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 4: Jesus fulfills the longing for friends with friends, keep going.

498
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 4: Jesus fulfills the longing for a woman, guess what with

499
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 4: a woman. So all of that is how Jesus does it.

500
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 4: So here's what's beautiful about. You know, God is walking

501
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 4: with Adam. God is walking with Adam. There is no sin,

502
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 4: so Adam should be completely and totally fulfilled if God

503
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 4: fulfills every desire. But what does God say of Adam?

504
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 4: He's not complete for men to be alone. He's not

505
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 4: good for man to be alone. He's lonely. Well, how

506
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 4: can he be lonely? If God fulfills every desire of

507
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 4: the humans. I'll tell you why, because God put another

508
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 4: desire in that guy's chest for a woman.

509
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 3: Awesome, and he withheld the woman. And you say, okay, well,

510
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 3: then he gave him Eve. No he didn't.

511
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 4: God said, you're lonely. You cannot find a helpmate suitable.

512
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 4: Here's what I want you to do. Name the animals now,

513
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 4: pastor Stephen, if you were charged with naming the animals.

514
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 4: We all have told it in a children's way that

515
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 4: it's going to be an afternoon in when you say giraffe, monkey, whatever.

516
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 4: Even Darwin on the Galopagos Island took years just to

517
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 4: chart a small microcosm of the species. I think ten

518
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 4: years to one hundred years of no woman period. So

519
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 4: this longing, he didn't just take the longing and fulfill it.

520
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 4: He took the longing and made it worse. Isn't that crazy?

521
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 3: Yeah?

522
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 4: Made it worse. Wow, literally made the man wait and work.

523
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 4: Then he gives. Of course, he puts Adam to sleep.

524
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 4: As the story goes, takes from Adam a rib and

525
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 4: makes Eve. Adam wakes up and sees Eve. And it's

526
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 4: the very first place in the scriptures where you see

527
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 4: an ancient form of Hebrew poetry called parallelism. It says,

528
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 4: though the text has broken into song. So here he

529
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 4: sees this woman. He says, bone of my bone, and

530
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 4: flesh of my flesh. He broke in the song when

531
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 4: he saw her. Why did he do that? I'll tell

532
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 4: you why I did that. Because God made him wit

533
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 4: and name the animals. He had to work for it,

534
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 4: and he had to feel that longing. And you know

535
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 4: what I love about You know, I don't want to

536
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 4: discredit my wife, because she's.

537
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 3: An amazing woman.

538
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 4: But I guarantee you one of the reasons I cherish

539
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 4: my wife is because it was forty two years of

540
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 4: naming animals and I find and you think I'm going

541
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 4: to mess this up after forty two years.

542
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 3: Wow.

543
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 4: And so I think that's one of the problems with

544
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 4: sort of quick transactional relationships is it doesn't give us

545
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 4: the chance to build up the desire which is embedded

546
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 4: in pain. We tend to think pain or loneliness is

547
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 4: a bad thing, like he did something wrong, pain or

548
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 4: loneliness is a gift from God to help us appreciate

549
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 4: what eventually.

550
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 3: We began to us when He blesses us.

551
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 2: You know, the people who are hurting from loneliness are

552
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: hearing that right now, and I hope they're comforted.

553
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: I hope so too.

554
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know what the enemy is going to tell

555
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 2: them about that though it applies to other people but

556
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: not to you. You know that other people maybe their

557
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: loneliness is by design, but what you're going through, you

558
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 2: caused it.

559
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 3: You know there's.

560
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: Something fought because we will always believe that we're the

561
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: exception to whatever gifts God wants to give.

562
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: And I just I love this picture that you're painting

563
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: for us right now.

564
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: That God allows the void and sometimes creates the void

565
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 2: so that he can fill it with himself. Now, that

566
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that God is going to withhold every good,

567
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: perfect gift comes from above and all of that, we

568
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: believe it. But you're on the other side of this

569
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 2: now saying I wouldn't have known what to do with it,

570
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 2: and I wouldn't have known how to cherish it if

571
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 2: I hadn't had to wait for it.

572
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 4: My wedding day was the happiest day of my life.

573
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 4: I mean, it just didn't. I was never sure what

574
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 4: was going to happen. And we didn't rush into it.

575
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 4: I mean we you know, we took a long time

576
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 4: and dated and you know, did all that stuff, and

577
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 4: but that stuff has to be earned. You can't you know,

578
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 4: you just can't rush a climactic scene.

579
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 3: You can't rush it in a story. You have to

580
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 3: have the tension.

581
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 4: If you don't have the tension, the climactic scene is

582
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 4: going to be a dud, you know what.

583
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 3: I like.

584
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 2: We don't think of our flaws as the glue that

585
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 2: binds us to the people we love, but they are

586
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 2: grace only sticks to our imperfections.

587
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 3: That's cool in that.

588
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 4: True relationships that you get to know somebody and it's

589
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 4: like the fifth or sixth time to hang out with them,

590
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 4: and they just share some sort of insecurity and you

591
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 4: suddenly feel closer to them.

592
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, you think it's going to drive them away and

593
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: all of a sudden you find out the thing that

594
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: you are trying to hide.

595
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you can't use it as a strategic tool.

596
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 4: It has to be sincere right. We can't go well

597
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 4: long gonna be vulnerable in order to smell that out.

598
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 4: But what happens in those things, I think is that

599
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 4: essentially between you and I, what happens when I'm vulnerable

600
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 4: and it creates a bond between us, is in our relationship,

601
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 4: what I've done by being vulnerable is I've handed you

602
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 4: a gun. I've literally handed you a weapon, because by

603
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 4: being vulnerable, you now have information that.

604
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 3: You can use to hurt me. So what I did

605
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 3: was I just gave you power in the relationship.

606
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 4: And when I give you power in the relationship, it

607
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 4: makes you more comfortable, and you think, you know, I'm

608
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 4: never going to use this gun.

609
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 3: But I really like this guy because.

610
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 4: He's not holding anything, and honestly, if he does anything

611
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 4: to me, maybe, So I.

612
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: Wonder about like in our marriages.

613
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 4: You know, my wife has so many weapons to use

614
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 4: against me. I mean, she could literally, in one sentence

615
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 4: or one paragraph calls me five years of very dark pain.

616
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 4: She's got that, and you know how good it feels

617
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 4: that she never uses it. It just increases my trust

618
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 4: in God, in the world and the existence of love

619
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 4: and all that kind of stuff.

620
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: And I've got stuff on her.

621
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 4: I mean, I know what she'd be afraid of, and

622
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 4: those kinds of things, and I could play those games,

623
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 4: and man, I would never do that. We are at

624
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 4: the most loving truce right So here we are imagine

625
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 4: us just hugging each other and there's all these weapons.

626
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 4: It's just laid down by now, and we're not going

627
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 4: to pick them up.

628
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: It's kind of the picture of our relationship with God, then.

629
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: Isn't it. Absolutely?

630
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: Because if anybody has their finger on the nuclear button,

631
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: that could plow the whole thing up it's hill.

632
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 3: And he's not going to do it.

633
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: Not only is he not going to do it, but

634
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: he's going to sacrifice himself so.

635
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 3: We don't have to be destroyed. That's right, That's beautiful. Man.

636
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: Okay, I could talk to you about this all day,

637
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 2: but I want to I want to kind of finish

638
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: with a thought.

639
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is deep, but you end your book.

640
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: Talking about kind of the beginning of your marriage.

641
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: How long have you been married now? Three years? Yeah,

642
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: three years in November.

643
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: How would the book end differently if you were ending

644
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: it today then it ended years ago?

645
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 4: Well, you know, we'd spent the first year of marriage,

646
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 4: both of us kind of circling each other. It was

647
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 4: really hilarious, and we just kept Betty and I can

648
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 4: talk about anything, so we just kept talking about when

649
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 4: is the other shoe going to drop? Like, when is

650
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 4: this going to go south? It has to like it

651
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 4: just can't be. Then we had this real beautiful paradigm

652
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 4: shift of what if God is good? Like what if

653
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 4: God just says I actually want you to be happy?

654
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 3: Like it was.

655
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 4: My whole design was that you guys would be not

656
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 4: everyday it's going to be perfect.

657
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 3: Betsy and I will argue sometimes. So we just made

658
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 3: this commitment.

659
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 4: That Betsy and I are going to keep the drama

660
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 4: outside of the marriage. So we did this thing before

661
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 4: we got married. I wrote down a marriage plan. I

662
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 4: actually took a ninety day business plan. I was at

663
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 4: a business conference and crossed out the word business and

664
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 4: wrote the word marriage.

665
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 3: And I just thought it would be fun.

666
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 4: She's just so attractive, and I wrote, well, what's the theme, right?

667
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 4: And I wrote, well, we want to have a restorative marriage,

668
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 4: And you know, I just put down his principles and

669
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 4: I took a picture of it to her and she

670
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 4: was actually mad at me that day. Took a picture

671
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 4: to it, and I texted to her and then I

672
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 4: felt like, oh, she's gonna kill me.

673
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: Like literally, I just turned our marriage into a.

674
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 4: Business strategy, like we're gonna franchise our kids, right, And

675
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 4: she even when back shit down, this is exactly what

676
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 4: I needed to hear, and it was It was because

677
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 4: we were in a place where I was taking her

678
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 4: from her friends, I was taking her from her career

679
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 4: and all she was She was so freaked out because.

680
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 3: She was just like, where are you taking me.

681
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 4: You're taking me to a wedding, but I don't know

682
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 4: what's on the other side of that wedding.

683
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 3: So this little document is saying, here's what we're going

684
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 3: to be.

685
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 4: So we made this decision before we got married that

686
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 4: we would have a restorative marriage. Now that can change,

687
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 4: we can change the theme of our marriage, but we

688
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 4: haven't yet.

689
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: And we're three years in.

690
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 4: What that meant for us is when you walk in

691
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 4: the door of our home, when Betsy walks in the

692
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 4: door or I walk in the door, we have an agreement.

693
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: Life is hard.

694
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 4: Things outside this door, these doors are difficult, and when

695
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 4: you walk through these doors, we will recharge each other.

696
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 4: We will sow no unkind words love it. I'm here

697
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 4: to restore you, Stephen. We will encounter very difficult times.

698
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 3: We will.

699
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 4: It's not going to keep going like this. There's going

700
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 4: to be painful stuff and I'm not naive. God will

701
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 4: get us through that and he will redeem that story,

702
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 4: just tike. He redeemed these stories now. But the difference

703
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 4: is I'll go into those painful times hopefully with more

704
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 4: trust and going. You know, what brought me through the

705
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 4: last one, he'll bring us through this one.

706
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: We're gonna be okay. Bob told you you were a

707
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 3: great at relationship. Do you believe him now?

708
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 4: I believe him more than I did at the time.

709
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 4: And that's kind of how the book ends because the

710
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 4: last time he said it to me, he would say

711
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 4: it every month or so for years, two to three years,

712
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 4: and he actually did our wedding, and the last time

713
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: he said it to me, he's never said it since.

714
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 4: You know, he just looked at me and said, don

715
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: you're good at relationships proof.

716
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: You know, here's your wedding proof.

717
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 4: And I think we need those friends, don't We Just

718
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 4: to keep going, Hey, Ma, you'relying yourself.

719
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 3: You're lying yourself. I know you screwed up, but you're

720
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 3: lying yourself. Don't believe that. Yeah.

721
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: Thanks Ben, thank you for joining us. Special thanks to

722
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: those of you who give generously to this ministry.

723
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: Is because of you that this ministry is possible.

724
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: You can click the link in the description to give now,

725
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: or visit Elevationchurch dot org slash podcast for more information

726
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: and if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe.

727
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,320
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728
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,880
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729
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: share it on your social stories and tag us at

730
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: Elevation Church.

731
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: Thanks again for listening. God bless you