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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and

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Speaker 1: there's Jerry over there, and this is stuff you should

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Speaker 1: know about kids. Can I see a right off the

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Speaker 1: bat here? I presumed you would. All right, there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of c o as I want to issue. One,

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Speaker 1: we are not telling anyone how to parent their children, indeed, uh.

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Speaker 1: And two we realized that the whole concept of free

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Speaker 1: range parenting that will follow is comes from a place

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Speaker 1: of extreme privilege. Yes, to be able to entertain the

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Speaker 1: idea of free range parenting comes from a place of

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Speaker 1: extreme privilege. Okay, I've Can I amend that or should

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Speaker 1: I wait until we talk about that part to kind

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Speaker 1: of amend it? No, you can amend it, so so

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Speaker 1: to me, free range parenting, having the freedom to free

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Speaker 1: range parent is what I saw it ties in with

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Speaker 1: parenting that's already being done by people who might not

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Speaker 1: have a choice. Are you saying that the the um,

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Speaker 1: the the ability to choose whether you want a free

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Speaker 1: range parent or not is privileged? Yes? Okay, Yes, agreed.

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Speaker 1: I got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and again we'll

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Speaker 1: get into that, but um, well we'll get into that

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Speaker 1: at the end, but I just want to just go

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Speaker 1: ahead and lead that off because it's um a lot

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Speaker 1: of privilege involved with being able to say, you know

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Speaker 1: that you want to free range parent Are you going

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Speaker 1: to Are you going to land one way or another

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Speaker 1: on it on whether or not I support free range parenting? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I mean Emily, and I don't title it

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Speaker 1: or say hey, I think we should do this as

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Speaker 1: a style, but we, um, as it turns out, are

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Speaker 1: sort of dabbling in free range parenting a bit as

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Speaker 1: much as you can for a three and a half

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Speaker 1: year old. So you're listening to your instincts. I've never

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Speaker 1: read a parenting book, not knocking them, but I've never

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Speaker 1: read one. And we parent by instinct, and our daughter

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Speaker 1: has always had a lot of room to free play

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Speaker 1: and explore and figure stuff out on our own and

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Speaker 1: fall down and get back up and all that all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. Okay, I'm reading between the lines. You guys

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Speaker 1: haven't decided yet, all right, so ready free range parenting

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Speaker 1: go okay, So, um, do you remember when we were kids,

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Speaker 1: back when we used to hang out when we were

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Speaker 1: kids mm hmm, and we would go ride bikes together

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Speaker 1: at like UM sunrise. We had no idea where we

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Speaker 1: were going to go, but it might involve a swamp,

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Speaker 1: could involve a glacier. UM. There may have been like uh,

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Speaker 1: rail riding hoboes that we shared lunch with. Who knows

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Speaker 1: what the day was gonna bring, but we were up

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Speaker 1: for all that and may or may not have engaged

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Speaker 1: in any of that UM during that day. And then

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, around sunset, maybe a

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Speaker 1: little later, depending on whether it was summer or not,

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Speaker 1: we ride our bikes back home, say see you tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: go to our respective houses UM, and then talk the

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Speaker 1: night away on our soup cans that were connected by

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Speaker 1: UM a rope. And that was our childhood, right we

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Speaker 1: turned out. Sure, I have have talked about my childhood

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Speaker 1: some growing up, but you know, I grew up in

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Speaker 1: the woods basically on like a couple of acres of

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Speaker 1: land with a creek and forest, not in a subdivision,

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Speaker 1: but on a street with like seven houses in the woods,

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Speaker 1: and my mother had a UM. We had this giant

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Speaker 1: iron bell it's probably about eighteen inches across that on

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Speaker 1: a mounted on a big um like a telephone and

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Speaker 1: pole kind of right beside our driveway, and she would

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Speaker 1: at the you know, when it was dinner time in

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Speaker 1: the evening, she would go pull that bell and you

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Speaker 1: could hear it from like a mile away. This the

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Speaker 1: bell tolling. And that's when Scott and I were like,

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Speaker 1: all right, we you know, it's time to go eat

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Speaker 1: um after having been out all day long with zero supervision.

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Speaker 1: And I had a great mom, Like, she wasn't neglectful.

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Speaker 1: This is just how it was done. Yeah, were you

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Speaker 1: a latch key kid? Um? I know your mom was

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Speaker 1: a teacher, but did she stay at home with you?

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Speaker 1: She didn't go back to teaching. She she quit teaching

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Speaker 1: to raise kids and then started up again when I

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Speaker 1: was like I feel like eighth or ninth grade or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Okay, yeah, my mom took off until

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Speaker 1: I was like six seven. I guess, like kinder no,

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Speaker 1: maybe she's still around a kindergard I guess about first

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Speaker 1: grade when I was when I started school and she

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Speaker 1: was like, okay, I'm going back to nursing um. And

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Speaker 1: then after that point, I was a last key kid

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Speaker 1: for like the rest of my life. But I had

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Speaker 1: like older sisters who would be home around the time

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Speaker 1: I would, And but I had like my own key

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Speaker 1: to my house that was just a couple of blocks

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Speaker 1: away from my school, and I would walk myself or

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Speaker 1: ride my bike myself, and then i'd be home by

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Speaker 1: myself if my sister was doing something else for a

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Speaker 1: couple of hours, until either my mom or my dad

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Speaker 1: showed up. Um. And I think I turned out pretty

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Speaker 1: well too, so that I even key. Ever, Well, you

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Speaker 1: guys probably didn't lock your doors if your mom rang

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Speaker 1: a bell on the telephone poll to call you in

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Speaker 1: for dinner. I don't think we locked our door, okay,

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Speaker 1: But but you were. You had free range literally of

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Speaker 1: your your house, your yard, the woods around you. Um.

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Speaker 1: But here's a really big caveat from what I've seen.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people who are like um,

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Speaker 1: who aren't familiar necessarily fringe free range parenting, assumed that

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Speaker 1: we could have done anything we wanted and gotten away

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Speaker 1: with it because we were we had overly permissive parents.

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Speaker 1: That's not That's not the case for me, and I

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Speaker 1: would dare say that wasn't the case for you as well.

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Speaker 1: That we actually had plenty of rules and structure. We

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Speaker 1: were just also given a lot of freedom to do

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Speaker 1: things within that rules and structure, including geographic freedom right

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Speaker 1: for sure. Okay, yeah, so that is what I thought

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Speaker 1: all kids had up to this time. And I knew

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Speaker 1: that there was like such things as piano and Mandarin

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Speaker 1: lessons or um mandarin classes, that kind of stuff, like

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Speaker 1: things that kids were taking more and more and they

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Speaker 1: were really busy and stressed out, and they had like

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Speaker 1: like um iPhones at age seven, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: But I still thought that this happened, and I was

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Speaker 1: really shocked, about as shocked as I've ever been in

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Speaker 1: researching an episode of stuff you should know to find

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Speaker 1: that that is not the case. That not only does

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Speaker 1: has this been kind of squeezed out by other activities,

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Speaker 1: it's actually become criminalized behavior by society at large, the

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Speaker 1: parents who were raising children today. I was blown away

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Speaker 1: to find this out. I really legitimately didn't know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and getting back to the activities, you know,

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Speaker 1: I played some soccer in high school and then I

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Speaker 1: did like church sports, which there's not a lot of.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think we did like maybe one basketball

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Speaker 1: practice a week, um, and so it wasn't like everyday

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Speaker 1: practice and stuff like that. I never took lessons of

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Speaker 1: any kind. Uh, like I taught my self guitar and

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. So like, I I don't think I

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Speaker 1: literally ever had a structured post school activity in my life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: did you say church sports? Yeah, I played church softball

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Speaker 1: and basketball. Did like everybody win every game? No, it

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Speaker 1: was actually fiercely competitive. Okay, I'm just kidding. No, no,

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Speaker 1: no it was. It was it was legit like we

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Speaker 1: had a pretty good basketball team and in the league

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Speaker 1: was pretty impressive too. But um, yeah, I don't, I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't never signed it. I never had a class.

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Speaker 1: Like the idea of my mom having been like, all right,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna take you to your violin lesson and then

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Speaker 1: on the weekends we have gymnastics and uh whatever else

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Speaker 1: people are doing these days, was just just we didn't

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Speaker 1: do that. She was just like, go play, right. So,

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Speaker 1: so there has been and we'll talk about all the

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Speaker 1: reasons why, but there has been a movement away from

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Speaker 1: the kind of childhood we had a very pronounced one. Um.

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Speaker 1: If you if you look at you know, culture is

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Speaker 1: a pendulum swinging one way or another. It has swung

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Speaker 1: very far the opposite way to where kids lives are

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Speaker 1: structured um down to the minute, where they have actual

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Speaker 1: calendars and schedules that they have to keep up with

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Speaker 1: because they have so many things going on. Um and

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Speaker 1: and there has come about in reaction to that, uh,

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Speaker 1: an antithesis basically, and it is nothing more than letting

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Speaker 1: kids grow up the way that you and I did,

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Speaker 1: um and then and it has become so novel in

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Speaker 1: the face of of the world and the culture that

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Speaker 1: we have in raising kids in the United States now

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Speaker 1: UM that it has its own name. It's a movement.

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Speaker 1: They have to go to court to defend themselves. It's

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Speaker 1: so weird. But really, if you strip it down and

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Speaker 1: look at it, all they're doing is raising their kids

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Speaker 1: the way you and I and and Jerry I'm sure

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Speaker 1: was raised. Well yeah, I mean to a certain degree, um.

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Speaker 1: But the whole idea, and it's not just like I

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Speaker 1: want you to grow up the way I did. It's

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Speaker 1: what it really is is an argument that says, you

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Speaker 1: know what, kids will grow up healthier and happier. Uh

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Speaker 1: if they have freedom to play and they have freedom

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Speaker 1: to fail and freedom to um get in a playground,

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Speaker 1: scrap and to work it out with another kid on

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Speaker 1: their own and figure things out for themselves. They will

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Speaker 1: end up better people because of this. It's not oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm lazy or I have nostalgia for my childhood. It's uh.

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Speaker 1: And and you know, there's a lot of research into

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Speaker 1: this now or some research that says, no, what we're

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Speaker 1: doing is is trying to make better future adults by

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Speaker 1: not hovering over my child scheduling them to death and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, every time they fall, run over, pick themselves

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Speaker 1: up and like and you know, rock them to sleep,

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Speaker 1: you know if they get a boo boo. Right, So

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Speaker 1: I sound so judgy. I don't mean that. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: let's just take a second. Let's take a break real

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Speaker 1: quick and like connect ourselves and then we'll come back

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Speaker 1: and we'll really get into what free range parenting is. Well,

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Speaker 1: now we're on the road, driving in your truck. Want

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Speaker 1: to learn a thing or two from Josh, Damn, Chuck.

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Speaker 1: It's stuff you should know, all right, stuff? Okay, Chuck?

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Speaker 1: So I think you demonstrated something that is um has

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Speaker 1: made free range parenting very unpalatable to a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of parents who don't raise their kids that way.

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Speaker 1: And that it seems to be a reaction, um, almost

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Speaker 1: an in your face to some people reaction or judgment

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Speaker 1: of um, that helicopter style parenting where you're always kind

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Speaker 1: of around your kid there, Um, their entire life is

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Speaker 1: very structured and supervised, including playtime. UM, and that free

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Speaker 1: range parenting is meant to be a reaction to that.

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Speaker 1: And in some ways it is a reaction to that,

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Speaker 1: but it also stands on its own. And if you

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Speaker 1: step back and look at it and look at free

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Speaker 1: range parenting not as a reaction to helicopter parenting, but

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Speaker 1: as its own thing, is its own philosophy for how

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Speaker 1: to raise a kid, and you strip away like the

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Speaker 1: judginess and all that stuff. It holds up to me.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, there's been a lot of um,

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot more study recently, but the

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Speaker 1: whole thing really started back in two thousand eight, um,

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Speaker 1: by a journalist. It wasn't a child psychologist, It wasn't

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Speaker 1: a child development psychologist, it wasn't a child development, child analyst, psychologist,

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Speaker 1: none of those things. I made that last one up,

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Speaker 1: by the way. It was a journalist named Leonor's Skenazi. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so she was a New York mom. And in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight, she wrote a column for The New

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Speaker 1: York Sun called Why I let my nine year old

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Speaker 1: ride the subway alone. She was in a store one

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Speaker 1: day in Manhattan and her son had been badgering her

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Speaker 1: to be able to ride the subway and bus back

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Speaker 1: home by himself. And finally one day she said, all right, great,

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Speaker 1: let's do this. Here's a subway map, here's a subway card,

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Speaker 1: here's twenty bucks. Um, here's some change for a pay phone. Um,

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Speaker 1: have at it. The kid made it home. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: he said he was quote ecstatic with independence. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: like she got a lot of blowback from this from

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Speaker 1: like the judgment goes both ways. I mean there were

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Speaker 1: people that said it was neglect and abuse for her

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Speaker 1: to do this and let her kid ride the subway alone.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh yes, Yeah. If you had to divide the

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Speaker 1: two sides up and start weighing which one was a

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Speaker 1: little judge e er, you would definitely your hand would

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Speaker 1: be much lower holding um the helicopter parents side for sure. Um. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: If you're a free range kid proponent or you raise

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Speaker 1: your kids following that, there's a whole burden, whole social

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Speaker 1: burden that you have in addition to the burden of

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Speaker 1: raising your kids that you have to put up with

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Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, and I should point out to real

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Speaker 1: quick that it all depends on upon your kids too.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there are any sweeping generalizations. Um my

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Speaker 1: daughter has always been very, um just instinctively kind of

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Speaker 1: safe and smart about stuff. Um, other kids in her

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Speaker 1: class are just like a little wild banshees, and I

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Speaker 1: would probably be a lot more um worried if she

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Speaker 1: was the kind of kid who has an instinct to

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Speaker 1: like jump out of a tree, um instead of like

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Speaker 1: back down very slowly out of a tree. So right,

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Speaker 1: it's all It's all different depending on your kid, you know,

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Speaker 1: or a kid who like can't seem to shake being

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Speaker 1: totally fascinated with matches or knives or something like that. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that was a really good point. Like it's

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't sweep or generalize, but I think that's an

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Speaker 1: even larger point to people should be left to raise

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Speaker 1: their children, um how they see fit. Yeah, given a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of um trust invested in the parents that

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Speaker 1: the parent isn't going to harm the kid or let

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Speaker 1: harm come to the kid because that's their parent, right right. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this whole thing started with Lenora Skins, and like

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Speaker 1: you said, she got a lot of blowback, but she

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Speaker 1: also got a really positive response to an ex actually

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Speaker 1: parlay the whole thing from that New York sun Um

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Speaker 1: article into a blog that she called free Range Kids.

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Speaker 1: So from what I understand, she coined the term free

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Speaker 1: range kids and started writing about this stuff. And at

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Speaker 1: first a lot of it was just like it's it's good.

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Speaker 1: It's on its face, it's obvious that this is how

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Speaker 1: you should raise a kid. You know, kids need play,

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Speaker 1: they need to learn how to pick themselves back up

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Speaker 1: when they fall down. Um. And not only that, you're

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Speaker 1: doing a disservice to your kid when you pick them

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Speaker 1: up after they fall down, um, because they're not learning

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Speaker 1: how to get back up themselves. Uh. And over time

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Speaker 1: it kind of went as people became more and more

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Speaker 1: enamored with her philosophy or this whole free range kid's idea. Um.

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Speaker 1: More child psychologists started weighing in and the whole movement

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Speaker 1: kind of took the shape and they figured out that

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Speaker 1: for a parent to kind of see the light as

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Speaker 1: they as far as they were concerned, they had to

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Speaker 1: first change just the mindset about what kind of world

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Speaker 1: they were raising a kid in, because if you're a

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Speaker 1: free range kid parent, um, you probably don't feel as

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Speaker 1: threatened by the world in general as say a helicopter

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Speaker 1: parent would. Um ounce for ounce, Yeah for sure. UM.

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Speaker 1: I mean when when when parents have experimented with this,

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Speaker 1: the the changes that they've seen and their kids have

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Speaker 1: been pretty striking. Um if anecdotal. UM. There's this one woman,

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Speaker 1: Dana Bloomberg. She's a school counselor in suburban Chicago. And

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Speaker 1: we should also point out depends on where you live

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Speaker 1: as well. If you live in a very safe suburb

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Speaker 1: or way out in the country, it's a little different

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Speaker 1: than a kid like in the middle of the city

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Speaker 1: or something like that. But she gave her kid a

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Speaker 1: lot of free range um starting in the second grade,

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Speaker 1: and got some neighborhood parents involved and letting their kids

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Speaker 1: do it. And they said, before you know it, they

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Speaker 1: had this little, you know, little gang of kids kind

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Speaker 1: of touring around the neighborhood, are on their own, and

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Speaker 1: she's getting all these texts from these different parents, UM

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Speaker 1: saying like what a big change has happened, Uh, in

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Speaker 1: their own kid. One parent even said it was life

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Speaker 1: changing for her daughter, gave her a nuisance of confidence,

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Speaker 1: and um, that's sort of what the free range thing

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Speaker 1: can look like. But like you were saying, it all

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Speaker 1: comes down to a squashing appearance fear, the biggest fear,

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Speaker 1: which is my child will get abducted, or my child

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Speaker 1: will get um uh, there will be a sexual predator

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Speaker 1: to target my child, or heaven forbid, my child will

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Speaker 1: get kidnapped and murdered. Right, because you can understand and

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Speaker 1: it's really tough to fault somebody who doesn't want their

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Speaker 1: kid wandering around by themselves because they're afraid that something

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Speaker 1: really bad is going to happen to their kid. So

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Speaker 1: kind of the first step to um, to adopting like

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Speaker 1: a free range kid attitude, is to adjusting how you

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Speaker 1: see the world. Um And they think they think that

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Speaker 1: with there are several things like if you it's really

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Speaker 1: fascinated me. I love cultural changes, especially when we can

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Speaker 1: point to different things, seemingly unrelated things that all kind

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Speaker 1: of converge and has changed the world in ways you

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Speaker 1: never think of that seems to have happened to produce

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Speaker 1: today's helicopter parents or at least to produce the level

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Speaker 1: of fear, the climate of fear that the world is

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Speaker 1: an inherently dangerous, brutal um, sadistic place. That that where

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Speaker 1: children have no call to be wandering around themselves. UM.

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Speaker 1: That that is actually you can trace that back to

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Speaker 1: a convergence of things that have happened starting in like

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Speaker 1: the late seventies and early eighties. UM. And in particular

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Speaker 1: there was some high profile UH child murder cases basically

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Speaker 1: UM that all kind of took place between nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: nine in Night one, and those really changed a lot

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Speaker 1: of parents minds about things. Yeah. Um. In New York,

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Speaker 1: the very sad story of six year old Eaton pats

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Speaker 1: Um disappeared and was later found out to have been murdered. UM.

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Speaker 1: John Walsh very famously his son Adam. UM, he's the

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Speaker 1: one that does all the TV shows now. I think

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Speaker 1: he's on the Hunt on CNN now and really made

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Speaker 1: this his life's work. But his son Adam disappeared, uh

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Speaker 1: and died in nineteen eighty one. UM. Obviously the Atlanta

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Speaker 1: child murders UM from seventy eight one, and this all

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Speaker 1: converged around the same time, Like you were talking about this,

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Speaker 1: these these strange things aligning UM cable news coming out

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Speaker 1: seeing Inn was launched in nineteen eighty, So all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, you have parents that are getting this kind

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Speaker 1: of constant flow of fear from the news about their children.

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Speaker 1: Right Because so if if a um prior to cable news,

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Speaker 1: twenty four hour news, UM, if something happened to a

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Speaker 1: kid somewhere in in some state, maybe if it were

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Speaker 1: just particularly egregious or outrageous, um or everything was kind

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Speaker 1: of set up in just the right way, it would

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Speaker 1: capture the attention of the national media and you would

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Speaker 1: hear about it around the country. But that was really

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Speaker 1: really rare. And then second to that, the other place

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Speaker 1: that you would hear about child abductions, child murder, murders,

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Speaker 1: horrific like accidents that befell a child would be locally,

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Speaker 1: right like on your local news that maybe maybe expanded

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Speaker 1: to a region, maybe the state, but it was pretty localized.

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Speaker 1: And so if statistically something like that happened fairly rarely,

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Speaker 1: you weren't going to hear about it very often, And

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Speaker 1: so in your mind it was a pretty rare thing,

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Speaker 1: and you weren't afraid of the world in general. But

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Speaker 1: what a lot of commentators and a lot of UM, well,

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Speaker 1: some of the people I ran across some research UM

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Speaker 1: propose is that with cable news, that potential pool of

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Speaker 1: horrible things that befell kids to talk about um expanded

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Speaker 1: to the entire nation, not just local, not just regional

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Speaker 1: or even state, but the whole nation. So now all

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Speaker 1: the bad things happening to all the kids around the

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Speaker 1: nation was potential news fodder. And so when you were

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Speaker 1: watching CNN, it seems like every other story was about

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Speaker 1: a kid who had been abducted and killed, or sexually assaulted,

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Speaker 1: or any number of horrible things. And there's really no

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Speaker 1: way to put it other than that that kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff keeps people glued to their televisions, and so it's

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Speaker 1: really in the best interests of news networks like CNN

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Speaker 1: to feed people that, because while you're glued to your television,

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Speaker 1: you're also glued to the ads that they showed too.

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Speaker 1: And so from this model came a climate of fear

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people point to is like, this

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Speaker 1: is the source, and it's not just CNN. CNN gets

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Speaker 1: pointed to because it was the one that started at all.

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Speaker 1: That is Ted Turtor who came up with this and

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Speaker 1: started the first twenty four hour cable news network. But

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Speaker 1: all cable news is guilty of this, and became guilty

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Speaker 1: of it pretty quickly because that's the model of cable news.

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Speaker 1: Um And because cable news laid that foundation and showed like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you've got that kind of you can really make some revenue.

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Speaker 1: Nightly news tried its best to resist that kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: but it kind of had to follow suit a little

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Speaker 1: bit too, so it would become more sensational from the

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Speaker 1: eighties onward as well, not nearly anything like cable news,

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Speaker 1: but compared to how it had been before, it was

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Speaker 1: much more sensationalized because it was following the cable news model.

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Speaker 1: And all that put together created the foundation of why

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Speaker 1: people are just scared to death about the world because

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Speaker 1: we we think that it's way more dangerous than it

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Speaker 1: actually is, because the statistics are inflated by hearing about

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Speaker 1: this stuff all the time. Yeah, and there's another couple

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Speaker 1: of things that contributed that um Skins has pointed out. One,

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Speaker 1: we live in what you dubs and expert society, So

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Speaker 1: again on cable news or on social media, like everywhere

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Speaker 1: you turn, there's another expert coming out with a new

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Speaker 1: book they're trying to sell basically telling you how you're

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Speaker 1: doing it wrong as a parent, how you should do

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Speaker 1: it um. And then the whole fact that we live

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Speaker 1: in a very litigious society. Now, so what if I

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Speaker 1: want a free range parent my kid and they go

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Speaker 1: down and get their friend um out of the house

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Speaker 1: and their riding bikes and one of them gets hurt,

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Speaker 1: Like their parents gonna sue me because my kid went

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Speaker 1: and lured them into the mean streets. Right, Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was another thing that happened, Chuck. In the seventies,

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Speaker 1: the idea of negligence became really big, and there was

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Speaker 1: what's called like a tortue revolution to where you went

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Speaker 1: from well you know your kid was your kid didn't

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Speaker 1: know your the the other kid's arm was gonna get broken,

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Speaker 1: so you can't get sued for that. To know that

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Speaker 1: was negligent, and we're going to allow that and more

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Speaker 1: and more case law expanded to to to make people

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Speaker 1: think like lay yours because of it too. Dude, when

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Speaker 1: you were a kid, was I mean that must have

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Speaker 1: been a thing, because did you ever have the lawsuit

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Speaker 1: threat from another child? Yeah? That was such a thing

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Speaker 1: like yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna kick your butt or whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh yeah, well my dad's gonna sue you

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Speaker 1: for all the money you got. That's right, he's a dentist.

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Speaker 1: That's so funny, man, to think back in the seventies,

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Speaker 1: these children threatening lawsuits on Yeah, I'd forgotten about that

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Speaker 1: for like ripping their shirt or something. Any number of

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Speaker 1: things could could generate yea. Um. But in the end,

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00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: Skins says, and this is I think a pretty relevant quote.

431
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: She said, all of this stuff combined has convinced parents

432
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: that they have to be both omniscient and omnipotent um

433
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: because of fear, and monitor every single move that your

434
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: kid makes. So, uh, let's take a break and we're

435
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: gonna come back and talk a little bit about the

436
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: the facts about whether or not your kids are really

437
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: in danger out on the streets. After this, Well, now

438
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: we're on the road driving in your truck. Want to

439
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: learn a thing or two from Josh can Chuck. It's

440
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: stuff you should know, all right, shot alright, Chuck. So um,

441
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: like we're saying to to not be just scared to

442
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: death because you're letting your kids say walk home from

443
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: the park or something like that. Unsupervised, you you have

444
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: to go through a change in mindset, like you have

445
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: to stop seeing the world is a very very scary place.

446
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 1: And sometimes statistics can be actually kind of comforting. So

447
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 1: the free range Kids movement has really, you know, made

448
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: one of its um foundational support polls, and you think

449
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: I would actually be getting better at this all this time,

450
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: but but you stumble through something like anyway, they talk

451
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: a lot about statistics and crime statistics related to kids

452
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: in particular, and when you look at them in the cold,

453
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 1: hard light of the day, UM, it doesn't seem like

454
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: it's a very dangerous world after all. Right, if you

455
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: look at the numbers, UM, the National Center for Missing

456
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: and Exploited Children says that just one percent of the

457
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: twenty seven thousand missing children cases are non family abductions,

458
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: and that also includes like friends and acquaintances. So if

459
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: you're talking about literally a stranger targeting your child and

460
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: plucking them off a playground, it is exceedingly rare that

461
00:26:53,520 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: that happens. And then so one percent is non family, right, right,

462
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: But that also doesn't even break down like if it's

463
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: a friend or an acquaintance of a family or something

464
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: like that. It's a little strangers snatching your kid rarely, rarely,

465
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: rarely happens. Yeah. So even even that, even including like

466
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: friends of the family, um, somebody who's not a direct

467
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: family member but known to the kid, a non stranger,

468
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: that's two hundred and seventy kids that that happened to

469
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: in two thousand, seventeen out of twenties seven thousand, I think, um,

470
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: which is that's awful for those kids that they were kidnapped, right.

471
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: There's that's That's another thing too, is when you throw

472
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: out statistics like this, it's really easy to be like,

473
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: see that was it, um, But you don't want to

474
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: do that because to those two hundred and seventy families

475
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: that that's that's all that matters. And that's really important

476
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: to remember as well when we're kind of tossing out

477
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: these statistics too. Yeah, and not to make light of

478
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: family abductions, which is you know ninety one percent of abductions, Uh,

479
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: those are horrific and traumatic as well. We're just talking

480
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: about the bare bones of like the fear that if

481
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: I let my kid go to a park as strangers

482
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 1: going to pluck them right, right, so, so and so

483
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: even that even if you look at its twenty seven

484
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: thousand out of all the kids in the United States

485
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 1: in two thousand seventeen, seven thousand of them were went

486
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: missing in two thousand seventeen, and the vast majority of

487
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 1: them ran away. So, if you're worried that your kid

488
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: is going to get plucked by a stranger, specifically out

489
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: of a park somewhere, because you let them go to

490
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: the park with the free range parenting, people are saying,

491
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: if you look at the statistics, the chances of that

492
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: are so small that it's actually not worth limiting your

493
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: kids freedom of movement because of that outlier possibility. It

494
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: just doesn't. It's just a disproportionate response to that risk,

495
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: is what they're saying. Right. Um, if you want to

496
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: talk about the worst thing that you can imagine, which

497
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: is UM, a child murder Uh. From nineteen eighty to

498
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: two thousand eight, UM statistics about murders of children under

499
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: five years old, Uh, sixty percent of the time the

500
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: parents are the ones who did it, um, followed by

501
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: so that's total or male acquaintances. UM, So like you know,

502
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: mom's boyfriend or something like that, Uh seven percent or

503
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: other relatives. So only three percent of all murders of

504
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: young children are strangers. Right, So again and again, dressing tanks.

505
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: We're addressing the fear of strangers doing something to your child,

506
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: not making light of these other statistics. And there are

507
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: parents out there who are like, good, that's enough. That's

508
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: the fact that it happens to one kid makes me

509
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: want to protect my child and make sure that they

510
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: don't do that. Okay, you're the parent, You're you're raising

511
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: your kid in that that way. I understand, um, But again,

512
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: what the what the free range kids people are saying

513
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: is like, like, is it really worth that? Like what

514
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: what about that is? Is? I mean, is it really

515
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: worth that kind of a response, And we'll get to

516
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: we'll get to that, because you could say, like, if

517
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: there were no negative aspects of of completely ensconcing your

518
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: kid in protection, then the free range kids advocates wouldn't

519
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: have anything. They could be like, Okay, well whatever, that's

520
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: what you're doing with your kid. But there's suspicions that

521
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: the that actually is detrimental to the development of a kid,

522
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: protecting them from everything at all costs. And I think

523
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: that's one of the big other Um foundational platform post

524
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: tenants of the free range kids thing that one was

525
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: for showing off. Uh, alright, so building on that, um,

526
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: like you, like you were saying, like they're there, There

527
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: has to be like in order to get a parent

528
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: on board with a free range parting lifestyle. It's not

529
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: just I want to be lazy or I want to

530
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: go back to my childhood. Um, it's a parent who

531
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: thinks there are actual benefits to doing so, and that

532
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: that outweighs the risk, like you were saying, of the

533
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: three percent, uh chance or the one percent to the

534
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: point five percent chance that something's gonna happen to my

535
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: kid if they're on their own. Um, there is evidence,

536
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: and it's growing and growing evidence that all these efforts

537
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: to schedule all these activities for your kid are overlooking

538
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: one big fundamental element of raising a healthy, well adjusted

539
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: child that seems to be getting lost more and more,

540
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: which is something called free play. Um. The American Academy

541
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: of Pediatrics has a report out that said that free

542
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: play promotes social um. Sorry, social, it's the saying, uh,

543
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: social emotional, cognitive, language, and self regulation skills that build

544
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: executive function and a pro social brain. And play is

545
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: fundamentally important for learning twenty one century skills like problem solving, collaboration, creativity,

546
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: uh and executive functioning skills that are critical for adult success. Right,

547
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: And they threw that last one in to be like, well, okay,

548
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: maybe plays good, but it's not going to help them

549
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: in life, and they're saying, yes, it will actually help

550
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: them in life, and that by keeping them from playing,

551
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: you're basically creating a little adult from from the nursery.

552
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: Which is interesting to be chucked because prior to the

553
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, when you were a kid, starting around age

554
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: five or something, you you had a job, even if

555
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: it wasn't around like your family's farm. Maybe you were

556
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: helping out with um, the wash that your mom took

557
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: in who knows. But then you like, there was no

558
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: such thing as childhood really um, And then we moved

559
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: away from that and we developed childhood. And now it

560
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: seems like we're moving away from childhood. Now we're taking

561
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: kids and they're not they're not working on the farm.

562
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: We're making little CEOs and marketing directors and brand managers

563
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But they're they're losing their childhood

564
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,239
Speaker 1: in that bargain. As I think what they're saying, and

565
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: from play specifically, play helps, but it helps also like um,

566
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: just in and of itself for its own sake, but

567
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: it also helps eventually down the road. It's an investment

568
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: that will pay off, I think in terms that helicopter

569
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: parents can understand. Yeah, there's another guy named Peter Gray.

570
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: He's a developmental psychologist. UM. He has a book called

571
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: Free to Learn and founded a nonprofit I believe with

572
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: yes skins called Let Grow. UM little play on words there,

573
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: and he basically says that, you know, if you look

574
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: back to human evolution, um children, Uh, their education was

575
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: through play with their peers. And if you look at

576
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: um societies and cultures in the world today that um,

577
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: I mean, how would you classify these cultures traditional societies?

578
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: I'm not sure maybe, but they say that that children

579
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: of these cultures that still play and explore freely. Um,

580
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: if they're left to do that, they will do so

581
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: into their teen years. UM. Like that is their natural

582
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: instinct is to be among their peers, free playing, right,

583
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: but so and so like, I think one of the

584
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: problems that helicopter parents have with the idea of play

585
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: is that like it's it's a waste of time the

586
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: kid could be learning like cello or um, you know,

587
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: doing math flash cards are like creating a better foundation

588
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: for a better future for themselves, and that if they're

589
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,479
Speaker 1: not doing that, they're falling behind. And so what Peter

590
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: Gray and some of his ilk are saying is like no, no, no.

591
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 1: Play helps develop a child in ways that no other

592
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: thing you could possibly come up with their supervisor get

593
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: them to do can because this is what we've done

594
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: all this time, and this is how we've built society

595
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: is letting little kids play and figure things out on

596
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: their own. And he says that if there's a parent around,

597
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: if it's supervised, if there's a parent even within like

598
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: eyesight er, ear shotter, you know there's a parent watching,

599
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: it's going to be different. It has to be unsupervised,

600
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: unstructured play so that the kids can be left to

601
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: make up their own rules, can can be taught by

602
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: the group that you know, actually, no, that's not really

603
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: fair or it's not really cool to take the ball

604
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: and go home because you aren't winning. Um, that's how

605
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 1: you learn that stuff, and those are good things to learn.

606
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: That makes you a more socially well adjusted kid than um.

607
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: Probably learning Cello is going to well, yeah, I mean,

608
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: you can try and teach your kid by showing and

609
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: by telling as much as you can as a parent,

610
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: and that is all valuable, But nothing will teach a

611
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: lesson to a kid like learning it through experience with

612
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: their peers. Right, And like I remember myself, you know,

613
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, Like the biggest lessons I learned,

614
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: we're lessons that I learned among my peer group, you know,

615
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: like tough, hard lessons that a lot of parents, I

616
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: think try and even shield their kid from because it's

617
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: tough stuff sometimes. But um, and you know, you don't

618
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: want your kid to suffer traumas and things like that.

619
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: But uh, and not to sound like a parent from

620
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, but that stuff does help build your

621
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: child's character. And I mean, I guess that sounds of

622
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: old school. What it does is it helps them learn

623
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: how to regulate their emotions and how to fit in

624
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: with their peer group, which is in turn going to

625
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: be eventually just society at large. Right. It's funny you

626
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: say that that sounds kind of fifties because this whole

627
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: idea of like free range kids is kind of based

628
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: on that philosophy of Dr Spock, who was like one

629
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: of the first experts, one of the first child experts

630
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: that America ever really paid attention to. And he wrote

631
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: a book in nineteen forties called The Common Sense Book

632
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: of Baby and Child, And he basically is saying all

633
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: the stuff that free range kids parents say is like,

634
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 1: let your kids play, Let your kids like learned through

635
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: their own um, their own way of like exploring the world, like,

636
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: let them take risks, UM, let them be themselves. Trust

637
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 1: your instincts as a parent. And so that's what free

638
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: ranch parents seemed to be kind of getting back to,

639
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: is like the doctor spak Um school of thought. Benjamin Spock,

640
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: not um, the other spok not live long in prosper Spot.

641
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: Did he have a first name? Oh? I don't know, man,

642
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: I didn't watch a Star Trek. I didn't either. Just

643
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: lay it on a million people who are going to

644
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: send the email we're waiting. Uh. There's something called the

645
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:50,439
Speaker 1: internal external locus of control scale UM. It's an odd name,

646
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: but this is UM been around since the nineteen sixties.

647
00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: It's a psychological indicator scale. UH. And these days, since

648
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, there's been a big shift in the

649
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: scale and how teens report themselves and their internal control

650
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: in today, teens report very little internal control over their

651
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: own lives. And Gray believes and I think he's really

652
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: onto something here that, uh, these high levels of anxiety

653
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: and depression among kids these days has a lot to

654
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: do with that, and the things is directly related to

655
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: the decline and free play over the last you know,

656
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: forty or fifty years, right, which I want to say

657
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: like this, this is like one psychologist's opinion. It makes

658
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: a lot of sense to me, and I'm sure it

659
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: does to a lot of people. But there's you know,

660
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: this is not necessarily like like gospel truth or set

661
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: in Stone. It's the jury is still kind of out,

662
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of evidence out there that that

663
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: does seem like over protecting your kid can stunt them

664
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: and um, emotionally or developmentally, and then letting them go

665
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: be themselves and learn things on their own and learn

666
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: that they can pick themselves back up and still survive

667
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 1: and failure is not the worst thing in the world

668
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: can actually help them develop. Um. This is it's just

669
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: like we we routinely shoot holes in in social psychology

670
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: stuff all the time, and we do it gleefully. So

671
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to like go the opposite way and

672
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: just be like, but this one's right because we agree

673
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: with you. Um, that's not necessarily the case, and I'm

674
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: sure a lot of people disagree with it, but I

675
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: tend to kind of favor that that mentality, probably because

676
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 1: that's how I was raised. Yeah, And like I said,

677
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: it does sound like um from the nineties say that

678
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: failure breeds character, but you know, it really does. It's

679
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: sort of a simplistic way to say it. But when

680
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: you fail, you um hopefully learn something and build on that,

681
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: and that does build character. Right. So one of the

682
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: one of the things they call that is the dignity

683
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: of risk, where you are showing your kid, I'm I'm

684
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: letting you go figure this out on your own. Um.

685
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: And and another big misunderstanding with free range parents is

686
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: that that you just go from like zero to walking,

687
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, taking the subway in New York, Um, at

688
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: the flip of a switch. That's not how it works.

689
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: You you slowly build your kid up for this, you know,

690
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: the big thing that you write an article about. But

691
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: there's you know, dozens or scores or possibly hundreds of

692
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: little little interactions that you're having to kind of make

693
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: sure that your kid is up for this when they're

694
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: finally when you decide they're finally ready to um. And

695
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: it's not just like flipping a switch. It's very kind

696
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: of thoughtful and protracted and um planned but not necessarily

697
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: shared with the kid. That's planned, UM paying out of

698
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: trust and so that the kid can show you, yeah,

699
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: I'm ready for this, I know what to do. I'm

700
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: not just gonna like ball up on the on the

701
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: ground in the subway and and start crying until someone

702
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: calls nine on one and the cops come get me. Well. Yeah,

703
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: And I'm sure when she sent um her kid on

704
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: on the subway home that very first time, it wasn't

705
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 1: just like all right, here's the stuff, see you later.

706
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure there was a very serious talk like all right, dude,

707
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: I trust you. I'm letting you do this. I know

708
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: you know the way. We're gonna give this a shot. Um,

709
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: don't if I see you on the news in the

710
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: middle of time square like you're gonna be a big trouble. Um.

711
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,479
Speaker 1: I'm sure there was a lot of thought in talk

712
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: that went into that, and uh, you know what, I'm saying, yeah,

713
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: so totally, and kids get that stuff. You know, for sure,

714
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: kids are smarter than people give them credit for a

715
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: lot of times. I think, Um, it's interesting when it

716
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 1: comes to the law because it's such a new thing. Um.

717
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: In Utah last year in two thousand eighteen, became the

718
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: first state to pass what was called a free range

719
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 1: parenting law, where it basically was just sort of redefining

720
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: what child neglect was. Uh. And in Utah, I thought

721
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: I was gonna go the other way when I was

722
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: reading this, but um, it actually went the way of

723
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: sort of encouraging or being behind free parenting. The new definition,

724
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: a parent cannot be accused of neglect just because their

725
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: kid is going to a store by themselves that's down

726
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: the street, or playing outside alone, or biking to school

727
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: on their own, or at home without a parent there, Um,

728
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: if they're a minor, which is pretty interesting. Yeah, I

729
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: thought so too. Um, But most free range parents are like, oh,

730
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: we don't want to live to you in Utah. So

731
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: hopefully our states will all come up with similar laws

732
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,919
Speaker 1: that that decriminalize free range parenting, because in a lot

733
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: of states, things like latch key kids are illegal, like

734
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: you can have your kid taken from you if they

735
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: are a latch key kid under a certain age. I

736
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: think in Washington you have to be fourteen to be

737
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: left at home alone like you, you could lose your kid.

738
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: And so there's a real problem with trying free range

739
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: parenting because part of this um helicopter parenting society is

740
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: also helicopter villaging. But rather and picking up the phone

741
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: and calling the parents whose kids you see wandering alone

742
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 1: down the street like you used to would have done,

743
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: now that people just call, pick up the phone and

744
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: call the cops, and then the cops respond and they

745
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: take the kid to child protective services and the parent

746
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: has to go down and explain that they will never

747
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 1: do this again and they're very very sorry, or else

748
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,720
Speaker 1: child protective services will take their kid from them because

749
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: most states rule on what's called the best interests of

750
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: the child, which is totally subjective, is completely not based

751
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: in any actual case law. Necessarily, it's just does the

752
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: child protective services person think that that the kid is

753
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: is smart enough to walk from the playground to the house. No, okay,

754
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: well we're taking your kid, maybe permanently, and so it's

755
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: it's really risky to raise your kid this way, because

756
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: people will call the cops if they see your kid

757
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: walking down the street and real trouble your your parentship

758
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: of your kid is in jeopardy at that moment, which

759
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: has got to be one of the worst things that

760
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: could possibly happen to a parent. Yeah, and this is

761
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: where we kind of we get back to the place

762
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: of like, this is a privilege. Has a lot to

763
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: do with this, because when it comes to the law

764
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: and children and child protective services, you are way more

765
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: likely um to get a visit um from child protective

766
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: services if you are poor, UM, or if you're a

767
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: person of color or minority UM. Like, they may write

768
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: an article about you in the local magazine praising you

769
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: if you're like a white suburban parent of middle or

770
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: upper middle class for letting your kid free range around.

771
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: But um. In the case of like Deborah Harrold in

772
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen in South Carolina, UM, she wasn't like, oh,

773
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: I want to be a free range parent. She's like,

774
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: I am a working mom, and I work at McDonald's

775
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: and I'm finishing a shift and my nine year old

776
00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: daughter is playing in a park nearby until I'm done,

777
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 1: and and they sent her to jail for a night

778
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 1: and took her daughter for two weeks away from her

779
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 1: seventeen days. Yeah, so it is very much a case

780
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: of privilege to even be allowed to do this without

781
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 1: getting a visit from Child Protective Services. Right so, um,

782
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: Skinazy and some of the other free range parents say, right,

783
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 1: this is why we need laws that are much more

784
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: common sense and decriminalize this kind of behavior and put

785
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: the trust back in parents to know that their kids

786
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,359
Speaker 1: are smart enough, or if they think their kids aren't

787
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: smart enough to be trusted with that kind of stuff,

788
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: they wouldn't let them do that. Um. They argue that

789
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: this would benefit everybody, whether no matter you know, whether

790
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: you're a minority or um whatever, um socioeconomic status you have,

791
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: which is which is true? That's a pretty it's a

792
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: pretty sensible. Um, it's sensible. But I think that that

793
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: kind of underscores the larger problem, which is, you know,

794
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: like some people don't have the choice to to get

795
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: childcare if the school suddenly canceled class, like you just

796
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: can't afford it. What are you gonna do? And then

797
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: your your work says, well, you can't bring them here,

798
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: this is work You know what, what can you do?

799
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: Hopefully you've raised your kid to a point where you

800
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: can trust them to go play, you know, next door

801
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: at the playground or something like that. But that doesn't

802
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: mean that you're not gonna end up in trouble with

803
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: with the authorities. So it's a sticky, sticky situation that

804
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: we're in. Two it is, and you know, again, it

805
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: depends on your kid. It depends on where you live.

806
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: Like in my brother's neighborhood, Uh, if I live there,

807
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: I would let my kid go out and do what

808
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: she wanted when she was like seven. It's just so

809
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: safe and kids are everywhere on their own doing stuff,

810
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: very much like it was when we were kids. At

811
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: my house, I live next to a super scary busy street.

812
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: Like I would never let her out of the front

813
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: of my house, but even at three and a half,

814
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: we let her go in the backyard by herself and

815
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: do stuff all the time. Right, Um, I mean just

816
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: this past weekend, I uh, she was out in the

817
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: backyard and with the dogs, and I went out about

818
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: half an hour later and she was walking through the

819
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: garden with a watering can singing we will Rock You.

820
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: And I was like, all right, everything's fine. But again,

821
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: she's in my enclosed backyard. I wasn't sweating it. I

822
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: would um, I would never just open the front door

823
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: and be like, go have fun. Memorial drives right there, sixty.

824
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: But that's the point. It's all context, you know, Like

825
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: you would have had to have worked up to that point.

826
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: She would have had to have shown you that she

827
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: was able to be trusted with that busy street, and

828
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,439
Speaker 1: maybe she'd be sixteen before you would. But that's that's

829
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: the point. It's all. It's all, it's context, you know. Yeah,

830
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: you know. Again, just do the best you can. It's hard.

831
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: There a thousand ways to do it, and everybody thinks

832
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: their way is the right way. Also, just before we

833
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: sign off, I want to say I did mean to

834
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: pick on kids who take cello lessons. Cello is, by

835
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: the way, my favorite stringed instrument, which means it was

836
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: the one that was easiest called the mind. That's why

837
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: I kept bringing up the cello. So all of you

838
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: out there learning cello, hats off to you because that's

839
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: my favorite string instrument. Yeah what if what if Yo

840
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: Yo ma had just been free planning? All right? But

841
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 1: I'll bet yo Yoma did free play. A bet he

842
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: did both, and if he didn't, I'll bet he regrets it. H.

843
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about free range kids

844
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,439
Speaker 1: will just go on the internet and start reading because

845
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: there's a lot about it. And since I said that, oh, also,

846
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: there's a pretty good article on how stuff works you

847
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: can read too. Since I said that, it's time for

848
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: listener mail. All right, I'm gonna call this, uh desert flooding. Hey, guys,

849
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: listen to the podcast this morning on Desert Survival. I

850
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 1: live here in Phoenix, Arizona, and have for nineteen years,

851
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 1: and the flash flood issue is real even in metro Phoenix. Um,

852
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 1: they have a stupid motorist law here and that's capitalized

853
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,959
Speaker 1: and end quotes. Um. She said, and she said after

854
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: and during her heavy rains, a lot of washes fill

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00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: with running water. A lot of the washes have been paved.

856
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: Barriers will be put up when they flood, even if

857
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: the water is only a few inches deep. But there's

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00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: always someone who decides that their sub or truck is

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00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: hefty enough to get through, and their rescue is always

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00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: on the nightly news because they have to pay for it.

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00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,439
Speaker 1: They actually have to pay for the cost to their rescue. Uh.

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00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,720
Speaker 1: Sometimes these stare deevils don't fare too well. Um. Actually,

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00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: lives have been lost in less than a foot of

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00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: moving water in a watch. Yeah, I believe that I've

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00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 1: heard six inches. Yeah, and she Teresa Henburry closes by

866
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: saying this, I do so enjoy your podcast. Nice, Thank you, Teresa.

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00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: We do so enjoy your emails too. Yes, I like

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00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: the way she put that. Yeah. Um, if you want

869
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: to be like Teresa, impresses with your verbal or written dexterity.

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00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: We love that kind of stuff. You can go to

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00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: stuff you Should Know dot com and you can look

872
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: us up on the social links. You can also send

873
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: us a podcast like Teresa did to stuff podcasts at

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00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: I heart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is

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00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For more

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00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,

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00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: H