1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy P. Wilson. So this 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: is a two parter that I have had on my 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: list for a while. I scribbled down in a notebook 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: as Jean Baptiste Denise dash blood Um. This is also 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: one that if you are a regular listener to our show, 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: we actually interviewed a woman we didn't previous host Sarah 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: and Dablina didn't, named Holly Tucker, who wrote a book 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: called Blood Work about this topic, which I used a 11 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: lot for this one. But there's so much more in 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: terms of the narrative of the story than they were 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: able to get into that it really merits its own discussion. 14 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: Because as I started researching Jean Baptiste Denise life, which 15 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: was well before I actually started doing this episode, it 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: became so immediately apparent that he was embroiled in a 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: lot of conflict professionally, and the controversial nature of his 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: work was so vehemently opposed that it really halted the 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: development of medical science in some key areas. It's also 20 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,279 Speaker 1: one of those stories that gets told and retold because 21 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: there are some very um intriguing and titillating facts around it, 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: uh And in those retellings things get a little blurry 23 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: sometimes and some misinformation gets included. So I thought it 24 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: was worth really like doing kind of a deeper dive 25 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: on it. And Denny's story also happened smack dab in 26 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: the middle of a time when Europe was absolutely obsessed 27 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: with science and very competitively obsessed with science. The work 28 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: that was being done in England and France, as scientists 29 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: were racing to understand what blood really was and how 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: it functioned, was very much an intellectual battle between the 31 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: two nations. The reigns of Charles the Second of England 32 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: and King Louis the fourte the France were very explosive 33 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: in terms of cultural and scientific development, with each country 34 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: jockeying the claims supremacy in various disciplines, and the story 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: of blood transfusions is very much part of that. It 36 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: also is, you know, a contrast between the two countries 37 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: in terms of their culture and ideology, um, because you know, 38 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: there's the Protestantism of England and the Catholicism of France, 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: and one being very much attached to uh kind of 40 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: old traditional ways of handling things like medicine, and the 41 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: other being England being a lot more willing to kind 42 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: of take chances and explore things that hadn't hadn't been 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: established as norms yet. But even within France there was 44 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 1: a lot of argument going on among men of science 45 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: about whether transfusions should be attempted at all. And so 46 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: we are going to start today by talking about some 47 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: of the scientific work that led up to these contentious 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: battles over transfusion. This first are is going to cover 49 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: then Jean Baptiste Denny's early life and career, and then 50 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: in the second part we are going to get to 51 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: the events that ultimately lead to two court cases in 52 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: Paris regarding Denise work heads up. This first part, in particular, 53 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: mentions the use of animals in medicine. I feel slightly 54 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: guilty because whenever Tracy does a subject where there is 55 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: animal testing or animal use involved, she's so careful to 56 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: make it palatable so I won't cry, and then I 57 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: always come in with something like the rabbit test and 58 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: also blood transisions with all the dogs. Um, there are 59 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: reasons that I actually think it's important to talk about this. 60 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: We're going to keep the details in terms of like 61 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: the literal medical you know, kind of gross aspects of 62 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: it um as minimal as possible, But there's no way 63 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: to not talk about the animals because they're a big 64 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: part of these medical developments. And it also opens up 65 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: a door where we can talk along the way about 66 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: the various perceptions and reasonings over the ethics of using 67 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: animal subjects, because even in the seventeenth century, people were 68 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: divided over this issue and the medical community was having 69 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: a lot of debate over it. So that is how 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: we are approaching Jean Baptiste Deny and the development of 71 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: blood transfusion science. Yea, And I will say we also 72 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: have similar conversations about subjects besides animals, and like how 73 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: much detail to include without it being like horrifying or 74 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: traumatizing to people. The folks are like, how can I 75 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: only hear this warning with animals? Like, it's not It's 76 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: not a conversation that's limited to animals in our No, 77 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: not at all. It's one of those things I think 78 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: we both try to juggle all the time, right, not 79 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: falling into the sensationalism of relaying information but still getting 80 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: the important the important aspects of it conveyed that allows 81 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: us to touch on the nuances of any given subject. 82 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: It's a little bit tricky across all kinds of spaces 83 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: in history, correct, so to get into the blood conversation. 84 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: In sixteen sixteen William Harvey published his observations about blood circulation, 85 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: and he kept working in this area and he turned 86 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: this into a whole book that was published in sixteen 87 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: eight This book was called exer Citacio and Atomica Did 88 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: More to cortis at sanguineous in animalebus and that was 89 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: published in and these discoveries of Harvey really kicked off 90 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: a period where scientists were incredibly eager to unlock all 91 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: the secrets of blood in its workings, and often because 92 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: of how little was really understood. This did lead to 93 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: experiments that are incredibly cruel by today's standards, including things 94 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: like injecting animals with all manner of substances to record 95 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: the reactions. And the way people thought about animal testing 96 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: at the time and also just about animals was far 97 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: different from the way most of us think about animals today. 98 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: Philosopher and scientists Reneed a cart who lived until six 99 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: and fifty had made the case with great vigor that 100 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: while animals were mechanically similar to humans in terms of 101 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: having basic functioning systems of organs and muscles, they were 102 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: not thinking, feeling creatures. That was not how everybody felt. 103 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: There were definitely people who believed otherwise, but Descartes ideas 104 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: enabled this mindset that became common enough in the science 105 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: community that animal experiments were likewise becoming quite common. But 106 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: the idea of the physical body being connected to the 107 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: soul was also something that was hotly debated, and intellectuals 108 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: tried to both untangle and reconcile the worlds of science, religion, 109 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: and philosophy as they worked this out. In sixteen fifty eight, 110 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: there was a significant breakthrough in knowledge about blood and 111 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: it's working when Dutch naturalist and microscopist Yawns vomber Dam 112 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: looked at blood under a microscope. His description of what 113 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: he observed is the first recorded known documentation of red 114 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: blood cells. Eventually, people got this idea of transferring blood 115 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: from one being to another, and the British Royal Society 116 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: was the first to successfully complete an animal to animal transfusion. 117 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: They did this, of course, using dogs. In sixteen sixty five, 118 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: Englishman Richard Lower had begun experimenting with transfusions in dogs, 119 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: and he was able to refine his technique to a 120 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: point where he was consistently successful in transferring blood from 121 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: one dog to another. A number of different experiments by 122 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: Lower and others followed, and they were done to determine, 123 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: for example, if the breed, size or ages of the 124 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: dogs involved had any impact on the success of the procedure. 125 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: Parisian scientists were aware of these efforts, and one in 126 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: particular was a mix of fascinated and also frustrated when 127 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: the findings of these experiments were published in Paris. That 128 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: person was Jean Baptiste de ni And just in case 129 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: anyone wants to look him up, his last name you 130 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: will find spelled two different ways, deny d e n 131 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: I S and also deny d e n y s. 132 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: And the beginning of Jean Baptiste Denny's life is not 133 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: really documented at all. His year of birth is placed 134 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: kind of by estimate, only landing him as having been 135 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: born in the mid sixteen thirties. His father was a craftsman. 136 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: He made water pumps. Those were increasingly popular at the time, 137 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: not just for their obvious utility uses in homes, but 138 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: also as luxury items for the wealthy to ensure that 139 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: they always had lusher gardens. Denny's interest in medicine started 140 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: when he was a boy and his patient was himself. 141 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: He had asthma as a kid, which his doctors were 142 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: not able to control. According to his own account, the 143 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: treatment that had finally worked was one that he devised himself, 144 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: which was inhaling sulfur pictory in nine year old doing 145 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: self experimentation, and it's a little unsettling. Denny went on 146 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: to medical school. He received his medical degree from the 147 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: unit Versity of Montpellier, and then he settled in Paris 148 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: to begin his career. And he was really really ambitious. 149 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: Although he had come from a working class home, He 150 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: wanted to make a name for himself as a doctor 151 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: and treat the highest echelons of Parisian society. But having 152 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: earned his degree outside of Paris made him an outsider, 153 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: both physically and also in terms of how he was perceived. 154 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: Montpellier did not have the reputation of Parisian schools. This 155 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: was in part because it's students reviewed as more interested 156 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: in carousing than learning, and also because the faculty and 157 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: curriculum there were known to break tradition and to be 158 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: more willing to explore new concepts and science that would 159 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: have been practically heretical in Paris at the medical schools there. 160 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: By the time the work being done in England was 161 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: published in Paris and the periodical Philosophical Transactions, Denny was 162 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: really eager to learn about it, but he did not 163 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: have the money to get a copy. He was making 164 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: ends meet for himself and his new wife by teaching 165 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: anatomy to medical students and dissecting bodies in his own 166 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: home while students looked on. Uh. He could not read 167 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: English anyway, so if he had been able to get 168 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: his hands on a copy of this, he would not 169 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: have been able to read it. He was so frustrated 170 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: by this whole thing, because he even wrote to the 171 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: editor of Philosophical Transactions and was like, if I will 172 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: pay to have translations done, he couldn't afford to do that. 173 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: I don't know what he thought he was doing, but 174 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: he was just incredibly frustrated that he couldn't immediately have 175 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: access to this information. But eventually it took a couple 176 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: of months, but a translation was published in the Jean 177 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: Mal de Savant, and Denny eagerly read it. He wanted 178 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: to try transfusion himself, and he took advantage of his 179 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: work again teaching anatomy to med students, to start a 180 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: review of the circulatory system for himself as he was 181 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: also teaching his students, and in this he was also 182 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: assisted by a surgeon named Paul Emire, and Denny's obsession 183 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: with circulation is said to have been mocked by some 184 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: of his Parisian students during these lessons, Denny's first experiment 185 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: with dogs was really ambitious. He wanted to keep both 186 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: animals alive, and this was something that the English experiments 187 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: had never done. He also bled a third dog that 188 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: was not part of the transfusion, is sort of a control. 189 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: All three dogs survived the procedure and den he kept 190 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: them in his home for a week afterward to track 191 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: their health and behavior. All of them regained their strength 192 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: and vigor. And since we are currently on a positive 193 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: note with everyone surviving the trials, uh, this is a 194 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: good time to pause for a quick break, and we're 195 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: going to thank those sponsors to keep stuff he missed 196 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: in history class going. We mentioned right before the break 197 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: that the first transfusion that Denny tried using dogs worked. 198 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: Both of the animals that were actually involved in the 199 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: transfusion survive, as well as the one that he bled 200 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: as a control. But this is where it becomes very, 201 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: very apparent that Jean Baptiste Deny was not a man 202 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: who needed multiple successes under his belt before moving to 203 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: the next stage of experimentation. To him, that first surgery 204 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: was enough to confirm that transfusion worked and that he 205 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: could keep both subjects alive, so he was ready to 206 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: move on to the next step. That next step was 207 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: a three dog transfusion, where one dog was used as 208 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: the donor dog to the point of being near death, 209 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: and then the third dog's blood was used to revive 210 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: the donor dog. He used the same three dogs from 211 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: the previous experiment, and it worked, despite some confusion during 212 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 1: initial recovery. When it was revealed that one of the 213 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: spectators had given one of the dogs wine from their 214 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: cup shortly after it had been let up from the 215 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: operating table, it appeared that Denny had once again achieved 216 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: his goal, and so this really emboldened him him to 217 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: prepare for a public experiment. Yeah, This is one of 218 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: those things where it's like, Hi, I don't know what's 219 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: wrong with that dog. It's not walking quite right and 220 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: it's not recovering at the same rate as the others. 221 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: And then he found out someone had given it wine, 222 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: and it was like, oh, that dog is intoxicated. Okay, um. 223 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: I can't think of a more French faux pap than 224 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: giving a dog wine, But there you are. The goal 225 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: of Denny's third public transfusion was to see if he 226 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: could reinvigorate an elderly, sickly dog with the blood of 227 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: a young, healthy one, and he decided to perform this 228 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: procedure outdoors on the banks of the Sin near the 229 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: Pontiff Bridge. Uh. There are all kinds of problems with 230 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: doing surgery outdoors, but we're not getting into that. He 231 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: first gave a brief lecture on blood and its properties, 232 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: and then he began the transfusion. There were a lot 233 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: of people gathered around, people from you know, the very 234 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: uppersche lands of society down to you know, people that 235 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 1: lived on the street. Success. Once again, both the old 236 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: and the young dog survived, and at least by his records, 237 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: the elderly dog seemed to have gained a level of vigor, 238 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: and this public exhibition gave Jean Baptiste Denny, who had 239 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: so longed for prestige among the doctors of Paris, an 240 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: instant reputation as France's transfusion expert. The experiments continued from there, 241 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: and he tried all manner of combinations of dogs and 242 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: in different circumstances, and then he tried transfusing blood from 243 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: a calf into a dog, which survived. He repeated this 244 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: and other experiments, pairing different animals and recording the results 245 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: and writing up his findings for the Journal des Savants 246 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: and corresponding with other publications as well. He had become famous, 247 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: and he was not shy about discussing his successes as 248 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: he worked through the spring of sixteen sixty seven. This 249 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: all just sounds a little like of a mad scientist situation, 250 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: but other people were also chasing the same information. All 251 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: of Europe was really trying to unlock the secrets of blood. 252 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: They were all competing to push the transfusion field farther 253 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: than the people who came before. Yes, while there were 254 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: also everywhere detractors, it was a very division subject for 255 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: the medical community, which we will talk about some more 256 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: um and pretty early once that first publication came out 257 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: of England and was dispersed throughout Europe, people really really 258 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: got excited about it, and as experiments progressed, the big goal, 259 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: of course, loomed large, and that was transfusions involving humans. 260 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: This opened up discussions of just what species the donor 261 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: should be, and while some members of the scientific community 262 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: argued that, of course only the blood of a human 263 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: should be used for transfusions into a human subject, these 264 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: were ideological reasons they weren't necessarily based in science. Denny 265 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: did not share that ideology. Jean Baptiste Denis thought the 266 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: idea of taking blood from one person to add to 267 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: the life of another was just a horrifying thought. He 268 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: believed that animal blood was inherently more pure and this 269 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: was a better option. This idea of their purity was 270 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: developed by comparing the behaviors of animals to those of humans. 271 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: Deni argued that animals were not tainted by emotion, which 272 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: he thought would corrupt the blood. Animals also did not 273 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: drink or carrouse. To him, they lived inherently a cleaner 274 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: life because they were not driven by their passions to 275 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: make unhealthy choices. This is the first time I had 276 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: encountered that particular line of thought, and it was a 277 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: very different approach to thinking about animals in these situations 278 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: than I had ever come across before, which just fascinated me. 279 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: So the opportunity to test denise idea of transfusing animal 280 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: blood into a human presented itself in the summer of 281 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: sixteen sixty seven. There was a teenage boy involved. He 282 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: is sometimes reported as sixteen, also sometimes as fifteen. He 283 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: had been running a high fever for about two months 284 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: and doctors had bled him with no improvement, and finally 285 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: Denny was called in. Although it's unclear how he learned 286 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: about the patient, whether he was called by the parents 287 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: or just alerted to it by maybe someone else in 288 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: the medical community. We don't know what the boy's parents 289 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: feelings were on the matter of having an experimental transfusionists 290 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: suddenly visit their home, but however, the matter was ultimately settled. 291 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: It was determined that Denny could treat the boy. He 292 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: used blood from a lamb as the donor, and initially 293 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: this boy experienced a mild hemolytic reaction his arm turned 294 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: very warm, but this was fleeting, and the boy soon relaxed, 295 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: and then when the patient woke up the next day, 296 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: he appeared to be cured of this mystery ailment that 297 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: had puzzled doctors for months. Denny reported that he was 298 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: so pleased with the result and so eager to try 299 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: it a second time, that he then paid a healthy 300 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: adult a butcher, to be his subject. This may or 301 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: may not have been the same butcher that had assisted 302 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: with the lamb that was used for the boy's treatment, 303 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 1: and once again things went really smoothly. The butcher reported 304 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: that he felt fine, He prepared that donor lamb for 305 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: cooking and left with it, and Denny reported, though that 306 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: he found the man just a few hours later drunk 307 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: in a tavern. This made the doctor furious, but it 308 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: also indicated that his experiment had no ill effects. Denny 309 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: wrote up his notes and the results of both of 310 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: these experiments, and he sent the work immediately to the 311 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: printer for wide distribution, claiming to be the first man 312 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: to perform blood transfusion on a human patient. This news, 313 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: of course, made its way to England and infuriated the 314 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: scientific establishment that had been outpaced by this Frenchman who 315 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: had learned the basics from their early work. Deny did 316 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: not ever mentioned that he had been building on the 317 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: work of English scientists, which made matters worse. He actually 318 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: claimed the whole idea of transfusion had been French from 319 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: the very beginning. He was crediting a Benedictine monk named 320 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: Dome Robert de Jabe with the origin of this whole idea. Yeah, 321 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 1: the idea of crediting your predecessors is already pretty well 322 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: established in the scientific community. So the fact that he 323 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: left out all of the English uh scientists and doctors 324 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: who had been working on this, as well as them 325 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: kind of rewriting their history made people furious, and as 326 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: a result, the English periodical Philosophical Transaction started running commentaries 327 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: on the work that Denny was doing. In one there 328 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: were passages clarifying that the English, not the French, had 329 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: conceived of the idea, including this one quote, it is 330 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: notorious that transfusion had its birth first of all in England, 331 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: some ingenious person of the Royal Society, having first started 332 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: it there several years ago. Subsequent issues of the periodical 333 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: pointed out that Denny was moving ahead far too quickly 334 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: with human experiments and was not prioritizing the health of 335 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 1: the patients, but rather the progress of his work and ego. 336 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: Much was made of the care and caution of English 337 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: doctors being the reason that Denny had lapped them, rather 338 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: than any sort of scientific lag. It was basically like, no, 339 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: we're actual scientists in this person is just an egotistical, 340 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: over enthusiastic nutter who wants to like gain fame. Meanwhile, 341 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: England's Royal Society was furiously trying to catch up and 342 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: started animal to human transfusions of their own. Their initial 343 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: patient was a man with a drinking problem and a 344 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: very tenuous mental state. After two successful transfusions, the subjects 345 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: started telling people that he had turned into a sheep. 346 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: That obviously caused a whole raft of other problems. Yeah, 347 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: while while those transfusions appeared to be successful, he kind 348 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: of taked that success by walking around London and saying 349 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: I think I'm becoming a sheep. We'll talk a little 350 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: bit more about that fear coming up. So back in France, 351 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: those initial positive results of Denny's work with animal to 352 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: human transfusion gave him the confidence to try the controversial 353 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: technique again. France was still grappling with the morality of 354 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: this whole thing, so Dennis had to plan with his 355 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: associates in private what the next step would be, and 356 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: that was in part because it involved kidnapping. We will 357 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: get into the details of how this plan came together 358 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,959 Speaker 1: after we first pause for a word from our sponsors. 359 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: The next patient and we have to use air quotes 360 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: there that Denny turned his attention too was a man 361 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: named Antoine Maa. Maa was a Parisian who had at 362 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: one point been employed as the valet of the Marquise 363 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: to seven year but at some point he had developed 364 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: some sort of mental illness. Uh. This is said to 365 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: have been catalyzed by a failed romance with a woman 366 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: a much higher social standing than Maa. Not only heartbroken 367 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: but also mocked for daring to try to climb the 368 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: social ladder through romance, really created a strain on him mentally, 369 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: and that strain caused a rapid decline in his mental health. 370 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: He went from initially exhibiting problems that manifested as irrational 371 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: angry outbursts to outright violence over a pretty short period 372 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: of time, including setting people's homes on fires, and while 373 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: the Marquise had gotten him medical attention. Initially, it did 374 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: not help, and so she eventually cut him off from 375 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: both her aid and his job completely. By sixteen sixty seven, 376 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: when his part in Denise story takes place, He's often 377 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: described as having been homeless, although that is not really accurate. 378 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 1: He did have a home, it was outside of Paris, 379 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: but he was often staying in the city and sleeping 380 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: on the street. Mahua was infamous in the city for 381 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: his deranged behavior, and Dennis thought that a transfusion might 382 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: cure him. Paris in the winter of sixteen sixty seven 383 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: was just exceptionally cold, and the challenges to just survive 384 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: were insurmountable for the city's poorest residents. Mahua had managed 385 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: to persist despite the elements and the odds being against him, 386 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: but he really was not in great health physically. At 387 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: this point. Denny had plotted with his surgeon Emirae, who 388 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: was still working with him, as well as other supporters, 389 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: to use Maoi. There was of course, no consent involved. 390 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: Maha was a fixture in the Marie district, so men 391 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: were sent there to look for him and capture him 392 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: if and when he was found In short, they were 393 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: instructed to kidnap him, which they did. He was then 394 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: taken to a hostel where his room and board were 395 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: paid until he was needed for the procedure, in part 396 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: so that he could have a period of regular meals 397 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: and a warm place to stay in the hopes of 398 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: bolstering his physical health before they tried this transfusion. The 399 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: second animal to human transfusion was performed at a private 400 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: residence belonging to Ari Louis de mal Moore, who was 401 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: a member of the King's Council and was born into wealth. 402 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: It was a wealth that had been augmented by his 403 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: father's embezzlement. While overseeing King Henry the fourth War Treasury. 404 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: Monmore was highly interested in science, and he had seen 405 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: Deny performed his public transfusion, and he was essentially using 406 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: Deny to bolster his own scientific academy. That was a 407 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: project that he had had in the works for some time, 408 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: and it was all but obliterated by the establishment of 409 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: the French Academy of Sciences by King Louis the fourteenth 410 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: in sixteen sixty six. Scientists of the French Academy had 411 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,120 Speaker 1: attempted to replicate transfusions that had been done in England. 412 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: They were unsuccessful, so for Montmore, Denise seemed like the 413 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: key to outdoing them and reasserting his place as leader 414 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: in the scientific community of Paris. Since the public experiment 415 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: by pawt Neuf which Molmore had witnessed, he had been 416 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: serving as the niece patron and ensuring that he had 417 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: everything that he needed for these experiments. Yeah, he had. Similarly, 418 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: his academy he had been working on similarly had patronized 419 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: other scientists and made sure that they had lab space 420 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: at his compound. They had all of the tools they needed. 421 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: They didn't have to worry about you know, uh, room 422 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: and board. So he was this patron of scientists, but 423 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: it was all falling apart for him, and the night 424 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: the deny was to make his second transfusion attempt of 425 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: this nature, Momore had assembled a number of like minded dignitary's, 426 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: medical professionals and curious members of the Parisian elite. He 427 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: undoubtedly wanted people to know not only that Denny was 428 00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: able to do this, but that he was the one 429 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: ankrolling it. There was a butcher on hand to see 430 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: to the drawing of blood from a calf that had 431 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: also been brought to the memoir home, and there was 432 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: also that same surgeon, Paul Emirae, who had been consulting 433 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: with Deny and who had prepared the room for the 434 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: transfusion with the various medical tools that they were going 435 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: to need. When Morea was brought into the room, it 436 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: was of course against his will. He was barefoot, he 437 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: was dressed in rags, and he tried to resist, but 438 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: was overpowered and tied up by the men that Momore 439 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: and Denise had assembled to help with this whole experiment. 440 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: By all accounts, this was a rather frenzied procedure. The 441 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: spectators on hand kept crowding around Deni and Emirae, so 442 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: both men began cursing and shouting at them, basically saying 443 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: you have to get back. Ten ounces of blood were 444 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: first drawn from Urroa and then the transfusion started, but 445 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't entirely successful. Even on just a mechanical level, Emi, 446 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: Rae and Denny were only able to get about five 447 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: to six ounces of calves blood into Maha. Denny noted 448 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: that MAHA's temperature rose really sharply. He started to sweat, 449 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: and this means that he has the distinction of probably 450 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: having written the first known record of a hemolytic transfusion reaction. 451 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: That's a transfusion reaction where the blood recipient's immune system 452 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: rejects and destroys the red blood cells of the donor blood. 453 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 1: This experiment, of course, was well before we had any 454 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: understanding of blood groups, which wouldn't really get going into 455 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: the beginning of the twentieth century. And even so that 456 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: involved human blood and not calf's blood, so he and 457 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 1: m he did not really understand the cause of the 458 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: reaction that Mha was having, and because of the severity 459 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: of the reaction, when really just a tiny amount of 460 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: the calf's blood had been introduced, m Ray stopped the 461 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: procedure immediately. Marua was then taken to a room in 462 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: the Molmour home servant quarters to rest, and the spectacle 463 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: was over, and after lingering for a bit to murmur 464 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: over what they had just witnessed, Monmore's guests at last 465 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: went home. And that's where we're going to pause this story. 466 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: It's kind of a cliffhanger, might see a little cruel, 467 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: but we wanted to keep the events that happened next 468 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: on all of the ensuing court cases altogether is one 469 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: part of the story. Oh so much, so much blood. 470 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: All through this there's this like constant recurring uh like 471 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: voice in my head going, y'all, this is not a 472 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: good idea, not a good idea. And then we get 473 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: to this last one. I'm like, yes, seriously, not a 474 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: good idea, not a good idea, and just morally gross. Um. 475 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: There's a lot of moral grossness in this story. But 476 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: I have a story that is not really related to this, 477 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: but does involve some medical fun true fund It is 478 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: actually about our Point Setia episode. It is from our 479 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: listener Rose the Lee, who writes, Hello, Tracy and Holly. 480 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: First of all, I'm from Oklahoma with a parent from Arkansas, 481 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: So I say points Setta. Many people do. We've had 482 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: people I know on Twitter, even at my personal account 483 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: many people have noted that's how they say it. So 484 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: there you go. Uh. She continues, I wanted to send 485 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: a quick note about point Settia leaves. My mother also 486 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: loves Point setti is. When I was a wee, little 487 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: chunky toddler in the late eighties, my mom found me 488 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: surrounded by point Settia leaves and happily munching on something 489 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: being the wonderful nurse that she is and up to 490 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: date on all the research. She whisked me to the 491 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: hospital afraid I had poisoned myself after pumping my tummy. 492 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: A search of my stomach contents showed it was just 493 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: a banana, So no harm, no foul, and I have 494 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: a great story for two truths in a lie type intros. 495 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,479 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine how hard it must have been at 496 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: the time, but it is good to know now that 497 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: I was in no real danger and we laugh about 498 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: it as a funny story now. I also wanted to 499 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: say how much I appreci it your thoughtfulness in telling 500 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: Jim Thorpe's story. Indigenous history is so little thought of 501 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: or disgust in a way that touches all of the complexities, 502 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: and I appreciate that you were willing to do that. 503 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for the lovely podcast and work. Keep it up, Rosalie. 504 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: This is so cute. I love that it was a 505 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: harmless situation. Yeah. I I think I disclosed in our 506 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: poison control episode that my mother had to call poison 507 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: control on me multiple times in my childhood, so I 508 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: feel kind of a kinship here. I never had to 509 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: go to the hospital and give my stomach pumped. But 510 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: I definitely did eat some things that I really should 511 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: not have eaten. You know, kids are unwise and they 512 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: don't know and they learn about the world through testing it, 513 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: sometimes by eating it. Yes, and eating a banana is fine. 514 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: Eating a banana is fine unless you're allergic, which I 515 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: hope not many people are because bananas are lovely. But 516 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: if you would like to write to us, whether it 517 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: is about some medical mishap or not, you can do 518 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: so at History podcast at i heart radio dot com. 519 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media as Missed 520 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: in History, and you can subscribe to the show on 521 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, at Apple podcasts, or wherever 522 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite podcasts. Stuff you Missed in 523 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For 524 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 525 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.