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Speaker 1: Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential and sometimes controversialist. I'm Britney

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Speaker 1: Spanos and.

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Speaker 2: I'm Rob Sheffield and we're here to shed light on

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Speaker 2: the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them

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Speaker 2: so great. And this week's song Dynamite by BTS.

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Speaker 1: This is one of two songs by BTS that are

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Speaker 1: on the Greatest Songs of All Time lists. They made

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Speaker 1: their debut, of course in twenty twenty one, ranking at

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Speaker 1: number three forty seven with Dynamite, and then spring Day

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Speaker 1: landed at number.

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Speaker 3: Two hundred and eighty.

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Speaker 1: And I mean BTS was already massive phenomenons at that point,

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Speaker 1: but Dynamite kind of tipped over the edge of BTS

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Speaker 1: mania that would happen globally. I mean, this was their

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Speaker 1: first number one song on the Billboard Hot one hundred.

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Speaker 1: This was their first fully English language song, and this

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Speaker 1: was the first time in all South Korean group hit

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Speaker 1: number one on the Hot one hundred.

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Speaker 3: They also broke barriers with the Grammys as well.

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Speaker 1: They got their first Grammy nomination and we're also the

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Speaker 1: first South Korean artists to be nominated for a Grammy Award.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was just kind of a boundary breaking,

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Speaker 1: massive moment for this band.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like spring Day and Dynamite kind of a beautiful

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Speaker 2: pair on the list just because they're sort of opposite

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Speaker 2: extremes of the BTS story. Spring Day is them like

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Speaker 2: as the South Korean band. It's a song that was

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Speaker 2: for the hardcore fans, a very emotional, very inspiring song,

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Speaker 2: a very message oriented song. And Dynamite is after they've

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Speaker 2: become global phenomenon by being exactly themselves, not compromising anything

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Speaker 2: like that. They got so huge in the US, which

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Speaker 2: is so historically resistant to any music not in English,

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Speaker 2: and they just did not cross over to North America.

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Speaker 2: They made North America cross over to them and Dynamite.

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Speaker 2: For them to finally do an English language song after

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Speaker 2: they were so massive here on their own terms was

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Speaker 2: just kind of beautiful. They didn't do it because they

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Speaker 2: had to or because it would get them anything that

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Speaker 2: they didn't already have, Like they just they felt like

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Speaker 2: doing this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the song in particular too, the timing of

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Speaker 1: it was so much. They released this in August twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: and this is this song is like, I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: just like Sunshine bottled up into a song. It's like

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Speaker 1: a really great kind of like seventies funk, like very

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Speaker 1: like Bruno Mars Uptown funky esque type of song.

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Speaker 3: It's like really bright and happy.

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Speaker 1: And of course this was August twenty twenty, not a

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Speaker 1: particularly bright or happy time for anyone around the globe.

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Speaker 3: And I mean it's very purposeful.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to release a song that was, you know,

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Speaker 1: meant to put a smile on people's faces, bring a

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Speaker 1: little bit of joy and lightness, you know. Bts as

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Speaker 1: songwriters that are coming from a place of talking about

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Speaker 1: being a young person in South Korea who's dealing with

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Speaker 1: kind of the pressures of a perfection, or about mental health,

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Speaker 1: or about grief. Spring Day a perfect example of that.

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Speaker 1: And this was a song that they very intentionally wanted

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Speaker 1: to put out into the world that was kind of

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Speaker 1: countering the amount of grief that people were facing. And

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of a beautiful sentiment and obviously the

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Speaker 1: song did just that for a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really struck a nerve. It would have been

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Speaker 2: so different if they did the song a couple of

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Speaker 2: years earlier, you know, when they were still on the

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Speaker 2: rise in this part of the world where it would

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Speaker 2: have seemed or in some way it might have been

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Speaker 2: a sort of compromise to try to broaden their audience.

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Speaker 2: But they did dynamite when they were already as big

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Speaker 2: as any group could possibly be. Yeah, it was almost

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Speaker 2: a victory lap for them. And like you said that,

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Speaker 2: it was at a very bleak global time and very

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Speaker 2: similar message, very similar emotional impact as Spring Day, but

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Speaker 2: on a just broader global scale.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, like many boy bands before them,

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Speaker 1: you know, you don't really need a number one to

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Speaker 1: tell you that this band is like the biggest in

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Speaker 1: the world, right, Like this is kind of like the

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Speaker 1: stats quote for a lot of like really big kind

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Speaker 1: of global success type of stadium filling boy bands. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like One Direction is a great example of that, where

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Speaker 1: it's like number one hits don't necessarily measure the global

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Speaker 1: impact of a group like this. But BTS already broken

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Speaker 1: the dam for K pop globally as a crossover artist,

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Speaker 1: you know, well before the song blew up, And you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of a sort of solidified that in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways, it's sort of just kind of

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Speaker 1: further solidified that legacy of what they had done for

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Speaker 1: K pop as a genre, for idol groups overall. For

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Speaker 1: that kind of like legacy of that in this particular

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Speaker 1: moment where they can be a crossover success in any capacity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, really, while also that it came so soon after

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Speaker 2: I mean the whole map of the Soul franchise and

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Speaker 2: just how complex that is. What I think made them

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Speaker 2: like so forbidding and intimidating to people, Like when they

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Speaker 2: first started to crossover in this part of the world

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Speaker 2: was just that they were not what people figured when

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Speaker 2: people heard the words k pop or boy band, they

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Speaker 2: had an image of one thing, and like bts were

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Speaker 2: just so complex in terms of the mythology and in

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Speaker 2: terms of you know, it's like, yeah, they do concept

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Speaker 2: albums about Nietzsche and Kyl Jung and like this, this

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Speaker 2: is what they do. Like nothing they do is watered down.

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Speaker 2: So for them to do Dynamite a very simple, accessible

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Speaker 2: across the board, anybody hearing this could like it at

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Speaker 2: first listen, just a real statement in itself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean with Dynamite, I mean, with this kind

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Speaker 1: of like further breakthrough post map of the Soul everything

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Speaker 1: that was going on, I mean of course, like Map

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Speaker 1: of the Soul was already massive in its own right.

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Speaker 3: They were a decade in.

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Speaker 1: At this point since they had first formed, and you know,

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Speaker 1: seven years since they made their debut. But I love

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Speaker 1: kind of like the origin of RM being this like

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Speaker 1: underground wrapper and like this Big Hit Wine to create

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Speaker 1: a hip hop group around him. So Sugar and Jay

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Speaker 1: Hope were the first ones recruited and eventually kind of

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Speaker 1: decided to pivot to an idol group. And we're having

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Speaker 1: like struggling getting people to audition to be part of

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Speaker 1: an idol group. I mean, now Big Hit Entertainment is

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Speaker 1: like one of the biggest names in kpop globally, I

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Speaker 1: mean just in pop music globally, and we're kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, a very lesser known label at that point.

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Speaker 1: But Yeah, eventually formed a group in twenty ten, spent

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Speaker 1: three years training. They were like living together. They were

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Speaker 1: spending like fifteen hours a day training and practicing to

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Speaker 1: become this like powerhouse group. I mean you can tell

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Speaker 1: and like every single one of the performances, like they

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Speaker 1: are just like incredibly talented, each of them, And you know,

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Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, made their debut and started releasing music

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Speaker 1: under big hit and obviously I've become one of the

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest bands in history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and did it by playing up their weirdness. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it is funny, especially when they started to like make

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Speaker 2: inroads here where you know, there's real resistance to boy bands.

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Speaker 2: People like never really appreciate them. The whole tradition legacy

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Speaker 2: is that they have this pop audience that they start

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Speaker 2: with and other audiences really threatened by that. I know

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Speaker 2: the memory is similar for you. But when one of

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Speaker 2: the first times that they were on one of the

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Speaker 2: American late night chat shows and there was this funny

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Speaker 2: idea of like, how we'll dress them up is the Beatles.

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Speaker 2: Oh playing at Sullivan doesn't hold up great with time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah now, but even at that time seemed like really

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Speaker 2: like uncomprehending of how original they were and the idea

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Speaker 2: the only way Americans could appreciate this was by channeling

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Speaker 2: it through something that they already knew that was from

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Speaker 2: England and got it completely backwards, because BTS became stadium

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Speaker 2: band here just by being themselves and honestly, they didn't

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Speaker 2: have any songs that sounded like the Beatles, and they

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Speaker 2: just they weren't like the Beatles. They were their own

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Speaker 2: kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it was one of those things, especially

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Speaker 1: with K pop iidle groups. I mean, they've existed for

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Speaker 1: a very long time, and these groups have always been

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Speaker 1: very very successful and massive in a lot of ways

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Speaker 1: in a lot of markets. Obviously, there was very little

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Speaker 1: breakthrough in the American market until BTS. I mean other

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Speaker 1: than cy blowing up and becoming kind of like this

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Speaker 1: viral like mean sort of sort of artist and song

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Speaker 1: with Gongenham style. But I mean BTS was that kind

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Speaker 1: of like really important art group. But that like really

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Speaker 1: helped kind of show for a lot of like American

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Speaker 1: industry experts and people who are like paying attention to

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Speaker 1: really great pop music that this was like a massive

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Speaker 1: global success and something worth paying attention to and bigger

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Speaker 1: than are previously seeing kind of quantifiable ways of measuring success.

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Speaker 2: That's such a brilliant way to put it. They were

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Speaker 2: just outside any model that people could use in any

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Speaker 2: I mean, certainly like going back in time to when

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Speaker 2: they were first making records, it would have been easy

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Speaker 2: for any American expert in the music busins to say

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Speaker 2: what they should do. If you want to be popular here,

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Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, first you have to do some songs

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Speaker 2: in English. You have to do duets with very famous

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Speaker 2: American stars who have fallen on hard times, which is

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Speaker 2: why they're doing this kind of duet. You need to

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Speaker 2: pick some members of the group and make them the

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Speaker 2: front people. You need to really limit what they do,

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Speaker 2: so it's very understandable and accessible. And it's almost like

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Speaker 2: they anticipated that advice and did the exact opposite of

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Speaker 2: all that stuff, and that their story couldn't have happened

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Speaker 2: if they'd tried to compromise in any way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it's such a great story of

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Speaker 1: kind of the power of fandom. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: just like a band that is very close with their

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Speaker 1: with the BTS Army, with their fans, like has kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, just organically built this like really worldwide network

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Speaker 1: of people who love them and kind of appreciate the

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Speaker 1: fact that they exist in this way where they have

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Speaker 1: their their personalities, they each have like their strengths, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean we're seeing this now with their

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Speaker 1: solo releases that they're they're rolling out. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: so much talent kind of locked into this group, Like

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Speaker 1: people just could not like had not seen something like

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Speaker 1: that before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was funny that in terms of them, in

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Speaker 2: terms of like Dynamite being them's, it couldn't have been

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Speaker 2: Dynamite if they'd done it as a step up into

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Speaker 2: the English language or American market. It was really something

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Speaker 2: that only became the triumph it became because they did

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Speaker 2: it after they didn't need that kind of that move anymore.

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Speaker 2: Like they're duet with Megan. They didn't do that to

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Speaker 2: get more popular. Yeah, Like they did that because they

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Speaker 2: were so popular. Yeah, because they had such a fascinating

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Speaker 2: combination with Megan. Yeah, that record is just so unique

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Speaker 2: for both of them, Like they did not need to

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Speaker 2: meet each other in the middle, and they didn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and even with Dynamite, I mean, this is like

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Speaker 1: one of the first songs that none of them had

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Speaker 1: a hand in writing too. Like they like them, they've

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Speaker 1: been writing their own music since they were you know,

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Speaker 1: kids like that, they've been doing this the entire time.

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Speaker 1: Is like also especially given how part of the success

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Speaker 1: of BTS is kind of they were writing from this

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Speaker 1: place of this like very real you know. They have

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Speaker 1: like the school series where they're talking about their experiences

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Speaker 1: as teens and they're they're translating that to their music

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Speaker 1: and kind of what they were going through, and that's

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Speaker 1: always been such an important part of their success and

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Speaker 1: of their music. And I think we talk about that

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Speaker 1: all the time with so many artists who.

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Speaker 3: Start really young.

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Speaker 1: Is like, what draws in those fans and what draws

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Speaker 1: and people caring about them is them just kind of

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Speaker 1: relaying that experience of being young and what it's like

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Speaker 1: to a new generation of people who are young and

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Speaker 1: trying to make sense of the world. And that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what BTS was doing for their fans from the you know,

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Speaker 1: from the time they broke and from the time they debuted.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you made such a crucial point about them in

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Speaker 2: terms of their evolution that this happens after the Internet

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Speaker 2: has created a new kind of fan community, fan culture

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Speaker 2: that exists independent of the conventional music industry, so that

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Speaker 2: they could really do an end run around the conventional

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Speaker 2: industry just because it was so suddenly so accessible for

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Speaker 2: people around the world from all different cultures, all different generations,

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Speaker 2: all different languages, all different styles of music, so accessible

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Speaker 2: for people to find that music and make their own

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Speaker 2: connection to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think like it's always you know, interesting

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Speaker 1: talking with people about kind of like what those origins

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Speaker 1: of really like massive sort of fan networks online where

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Speaker 1: and I think everyone sort of has different answers, right,

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Speaker 1: because I mean like there's like, you know, people think

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Speaker 1: about Low Monsters and like how they function online, but

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Speaker 1: like you know, in comparison to like One Direction, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, the Low Monsters were less involved with

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Speaker 1: like the success of Lady Gaga as like you know,

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Speaker 1: directioners were involved with the success of One Direction. But

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Speaker 1: you know, like I mentioned earlier, like it's so much

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Speaker 1: like K pop fandom existing online because this was like

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Speaker 1: that kind of global connection.

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Speaker 3: Is that feels so much to me like the.

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Speaker 1: Defining aspect of of how internet fandoms formed and how

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Speaker 1: they work on you know, from different chat rooms and

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Speaker 1: you know kind of the kind of nascent version of

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Speaker 1: ways people talk to each other online to like Humblr

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Speaker 1: and MySpace and Twitter now and then.

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Speaker 3: TikTok and all of that.

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Speaker 1: That feels like that origin and sort of that kind

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Speaker 1: of natural progression of making an act like BTS become

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Speaker 1: as big as.

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Speaker 2: They have become, absolutely and boy, like what you said

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Speaker 2: about the army, like being part of the group is

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Speaker 2: so true. And that's such a long tradition for boy bands,

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Speaker 2: and yet they always have this song that's about you know,

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Speaker 2: the fans. They always have the tribute. They always know

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Speaker 2: that the audience is there. They've all got the classic

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Speaker 2: song that's you know, they're larger than life, They're you know,

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Speaker 2: like thank you girls. There's song that's directly to the audience,

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Speaker 2: and that BTS just made such a tradition of that

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Speaker 2: in itself. So many great love songs that come on

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Speaker 2: and you go through them as conventional love songs, but

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Speaker 2: they're heard and meant to be heard as you know,

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Speaker 2: songs between the boys and their audience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm curious, like, do you think that Dynamite

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Speaker 1: will be that like I want it that way for BTS,

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Speaker 1: Like or do you see another song or maybe we

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Speaker 1: haven't heard that song yet, but do you think that

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Speaker 1: this will become that song for them? Or do you

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Speaker 1: have another one that you feel stands out in that way?

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Speaker 2: Wow, it's interesting. Would you say, we don't know if

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Speaker 2: Dynamite is going to go down in history as the one.

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Speaker 2: It's funny like Dynamite is one that just it stands

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Speaker 2: out as a highlight, but I don't know if it'll

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Speaker 2: go down in history as you know, the highlight of

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Speaker 2: this phase at least.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean just even like the timing, you know,

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Speaker 1: of course, in twenty twenty two, you know, all the

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Speaker 1: members ended up having to put this on pause so

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Speaker 1: that they can do their eighteen months of mandatory military

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Speaker 1: service in South Korea. They're all kind of doing it

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Speaker 1: at different times and obviously depending on age and kind

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Speaker 1: of going in order of that. So they've been slowly

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Speaker 1: rolling out solo albums, which have also done extremely well

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Speaker 1: and been really like massive successes for them. Though I

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Speaker 1: am curious kind of what happens in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: which is when they said they would end up returning

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Speaker 1: to the group and releasing more music, and what that

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Speaker 1: will look like. I trust them more than other boy

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Speaker 1: bands that have said that they're on hiatus, So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna believe that they're they will come back together,

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Speaker 1: because it did feel like it was just a kind

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Speaker 1: of a new a new beginning for them as a group.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is always a hiatus to head a

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Speaker 2: particular purpose. Yeah, and they knew this was coming. This

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Speaker 2: is part of like a long term planning for them.

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Speaker 2: It didn't come by surprise.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Obviously, strategy can't tell you like how big a

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Speaker 1: band will get, like, no matter how well you're strategizing.

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Speaker 3: But they knew it was coming.

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Speaker 1: It just so happened that they were one of the

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Speaker 1: best selling acts of the world. Yes, as the time

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Speaker 1: that happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for something like Dynamite, and when it came at

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Speaker 2: a time when they didn't have to work through conventional

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Speaker 2: North American media. I think a lot of us associate

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Speaker 2: Dynamite with when they were on the Grammys doing Dynamite,

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Speaker 2: and it was a first for them to be doing

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Speaker 2: one of their songs on the Grammys. They were on,

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Speaker 2: you know, the year before doing soul Town Road, which

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Speaker 2: was a phenomenal ten second moment in the Grammys.

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Speaker 3: Bedne I'm almost completely forgot about. That was such a

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Speaker 3: good moment.

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Speaker 2: It was such a great moment.

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Speaker 1: And next up, we will be joined by Michelle Kim,

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Speaker 1: who is a freelance editor and writer whose work has

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Speaker 1: appeared in Rolling Stone, Pitchfork, Teen, Vogue, The Guardian, and

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Speaker 1: much more. We are joined now by Michelle Kim, who

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Speaker 1: is an amazing freelance writer and editor who's written for

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stone and numerous other outlets. And thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us today.

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Speaker 4: Thanks you having me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm very excited.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, tell us a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: origins of both your BTS fandom and also covering them.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so, honestly, I have sort of a maybe complicated

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Speaker 4: relationship with K pop, or I did have growing up

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Speaker 4: because I was super into it in middle school.

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Speaker 3: Was super into Big Bang.

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Speaker 4: That was like my original group, if you will. But

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Speaker 4: then as I kind of got older, I didn't really

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Speaker 4: know if I wanted to keep on listening to the

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Speaker 4: Korean music because I didn't know if I wanted to

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Speaker 4: fit in more within like my American school, and whenever

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Speaker 4: I listened to Korean music, I felt kind of alienated

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Speaker 4: from it. So I knew of BTS and I kept

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Speaker 4: up with their singles. I had friends who liked them,

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Speaker 4: so I knew them as they were kind of rising

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Speaker 4: from I would say, like twenty seventeen when DNA got

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Speaker 4: really big, and then in the pandemic, everything sort of

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Speaker 4: blew up with Dynamite, and that was also a time

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Speaker 4: when we were all isolated. I was kind of looking

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Speaker 4: inwards myself and trying to figure out, like what's going on.

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Speaker 4: And I think BTS was actually like a really important

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Speaker 4: part of me, like taking Korean classes for the first time,

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Speaker 4: like connecting back to my heritage, and just because there

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Speaker 4: was so much content, I kind of just like fell

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Speaker 4: into this k pop hole.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I mean from your perspective too of being a

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Speaker 1: young fan of you know, a lot of idol groups

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Speaker 1: and artists, like what was sort of that development of

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Speaker 1: the popularity of Korean music in the US or kind

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Speaker 1: of especially leading up to BTS breaking through and kind

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Speaker 1: of building sort of even more success in the US

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Speaker 1: and allowing you know, I guess, like more recognition for

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Speaker 1: a lot of other artists from South Korea. But I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: like what your perspective is of especially the online fandom

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Speaker 1: portion of Yes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I would say growing up it was pretty

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Speaker 4: niche to like K pop, And I would say that

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Speaker 4: there was some sort of like enclaves of communities, probably

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Speaker 4: more on the West Coast in California that like, we're

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Speaker 4: super into it as a niche thing that they liked.

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Speaker 4: But I grew up on the East Coast, so like

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Speaker 4: fandom was pretty fragmented for me, and there's just some

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Speaker 4: songs that like me and my brother listened to only

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Speaker 4: from what it felt like for me. But during the pandemic,

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Speaker 4: like I said, since everyone was inside looking for an

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Speaker 4: escape from their dreary, like just waking up in your

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Speaker 4: own house every day. I think that because K pop

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Speaker 4: produces so much content around the music itself, whether that's

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Speaker 4: music videos, behind the scenes footage and them goofing around,

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Speaker 4: and also just a lot of idol groups making what

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Speaker 4: they call variety content, which is just them like playing

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Speaker 4: games with each other like you would see on a

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Speaker 4: variety show. And I think BTS actually kind of kicked

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Speaker 4: off this huge trend of idols doing that sort of

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Speaker 4: content because they started their run BTS series I think

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Speaker 4: in twenty fifteen, where they just would hang out play games.

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Speaker 3: It was super funny.

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Speaker 4: You got to see the members' personalities outside of their

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Speaker 4: very serious stage persona, and I think at that time

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Speaker 4: and during the pandemic, a lot of people started watching

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Speaker 4: that show, watching their YouTube video. They have behind the

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Speaker 4: scenes content called punk t on Bombs, which are just

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Speaker 4: them being backstage goofing around. And I think just the

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Speaker 4: fact that people could watch so much minutia of someone

403
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Speaker 4: else's daily life that wasn't their own, Like the fandom

404
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Speaker 4: really blew up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean what is it about them in particular?

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Speaker 3: I mean it is I mean the personality is obviously

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Speaker 3: such a big part of it.

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Speaker 1: They all are just like so charismatic and so just

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Speaker 1: like kind of energy personified and like both their performances

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Speaker 1: and also what we see off stage. But I mean

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Speaker 1: obviously the music is I mean just the way it's

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Speaker 1: developed over the last I guess, like decade of them

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Speaker 1: being a public band, Like, what is it about that

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Speaker 1: chemistry that they have as a group that made them

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Speaker 1: break through in the way that they have even before

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Speaker 1: Dynamite being their first fully English language single, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what was it about them?

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Speaker 3: In particular?

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Speaker 4: The origin of BTS was a pretty unusual one in

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Speaker 4: terms of three of the members were sort of part

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Speaker 4: of these street hip hop circles and were already sort

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Speaker 4: of performing or writing raps and producing before they became idols.

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Speaker 4: So I'm talking about Rm, he was writing raps and

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Speaker 4: releasing music before he was training at Big Hit Entertainment.

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Speaker 4: Shuga was also rapping and producing, and then Jay Hope

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Speaker 4: was part of a street dance crew. What it seems

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Speaker 4: like is that big hit at the time, they wanted

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Speaker 4: to really create this more hip hop leaning group that

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Speaker 4: they could take the talents that these members had already

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Speaker 4: developed and then maybe match them with more idleish members

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Speaker 4: which they would then scout and then put together this

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Speaker 4: pretty unique format for a boy group. And like, after

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Speaker 4: their debut, the chairman of their company even said, like

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Speaker 4: convinced them to join, like become an idol, become part

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Speaker 4: of this group by saying, you won't have to learn

436
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Speaker 4: complicated choreography, it won't be that kind of group. It'll

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Speaker 4: be a hip hop group. And then they joined and

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Speaker 4: they were like, oh, you lied to us, So they

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Speaker 4: talked about that openly. But all that is to say

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00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 4: is that the songwriting is super strong, because I think

441
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 4: RM and Sugar they have been really the backbone of

442
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 4: the songwriting and they're just very analytical but also poetic

443
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 4: sort of writers in their own ways. And I think

444
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 4: having that foundation, but then also having other producers and

445
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 4: songwriters kind of making them into catchy hits. And then

446
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 4: as they debuted and went from more like hip hop

447
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 4: sounding to like more synthpop electropop to the bubblegun pops

448
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,439
Speaker 4: that they eventually made. I think that's sort of where

449
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 4: it all like came together, where fans noted that there

450
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 4: was a lot of interesting lyricism and songwriting to grab onto,

451
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,479
Speaker 4: but then they could also have the very like catchy

452
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 4: fun moments as well.

453
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 2: I'm curious because we're talking about Map of the Soul

454
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 2: and it's place in their story and in their mythology.

455
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 2: And yes, and like you said, this kind of world building.

456
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 3: That they've done totally.

457
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 4: I do know that like world building was an extremely

458
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 4: important part of just cultivating that fandom. Like I said,

459
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 4: people really like to grab onto storylines that have nothing

460
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 4: to do with them, that exist in a fantasy land

461
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 4: outside of them. And because like I said, RM is

462
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 4: super like into literature and like looking up different like

463
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 4: psychology terms, they took Freudian and Youngian language to build

464
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 4: out this like universe of pop music. Yeah, that's what

465
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 4: I can say about it.

466
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,719
Speaker 1: I mean, the two songs that are on the list,

467
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 1: spring Day and Dynamite, really tell two very distinct sides

468
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 1: of the BTS story. And I talk about spring Day

469
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: a little bit about the significance.

470
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 4: Spring Day is one of my favorite personally my favorite

471
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,719
Speaker 4: BTS songs. It is one of my go to karaoke songs.

472
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 4: I think the lyrics are so beautiful. They're basically in

473
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 4: this category of BTS music that I like to just

474
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 4: call yearning music, which is they're expressing when will I

475
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 4: see you again, and using this imagery of like snowflakes

476
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 4: falling but also like blossoms falling to convey this passage

477
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 4: of like from the transition between winter to spring and

478
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 4: waiting for this person to come back to their life

479
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 4: or seeing them again in this sort.

480
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 3: Of like ethereal otherworldly way. I don't know, That's how

481
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 3: I see the song. So it's at its court, it's a.

482
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 4: Ballad, but there is a lot of this like electrocynth

483
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 4: production underneath that kind of pushes it through. And then

484
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 4: like I said, like RM and Shuga like bringing in

485
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 4: there that make it a little bit more unique and

486
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 4: break up the structure of the song. It has become

487
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 4: sort of this interesting piece of culture within South Korean

488
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 4: mainstream culture because the song has been tied to the

489
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 4: Civil Fairy tragedy where unfortunately there was this horrible event

490
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 4: where these elementary schoolers were taken on a field trip

491
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 4: to go on a faery and something happened with the

492
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 4: boat that ended up in this mass death. For a

493
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 4: long time that song was linked to that event unofficially

494
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 4: because the lyrics kind of convey this sadness and longing

495
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 4: of I will never be able to see you again.

496
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 4: And then I think a couple years ago they've kind

497
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 4: of semi confirmed in interviews that they're comfortable with that

498
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 4: song being tied to that event, and so I'm not

499
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 4: sure exactly if it was written in response to the event,

500
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 4: but it seems like they are okay with people thinking

501
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 4: that it's connected.

502
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there is so much beauty connecting it

503
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: to the purpose of Dynamite being released when it was

504
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: and being released mid pandemic and meant to be this

505
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: kind of like light to their fans and to their listeners,

506
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: which ended up going beyond, of course the core fandom

507
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: and finding such like a massive audience. I mean, how

508
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: do you kind of envision what Dynamite started to begin

509
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: for this new chapter for BTS's career and leading to

510
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: a string of big hits from them, and also kind

511
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: of the widening of their fan base.

512
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 3: Definitely.

513
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 4: I think Dynamite is such a pivotal point where there

514
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 4: is such a clear before and after. They have talked

515
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 4: in interviews about the fact that they were promoting their

516
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 4: single on from Map of the Soul in February twenty

517
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 4: twenty and had to cancel in the middle of promotions,

518
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 4: was going to go on this whole world tour and

519
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 4: had to cancel all of that, regroup and figure out

520
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 4: what their next direction is. And Dynamite was the next direction,

521
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 4: and it really like skyrocketed them at a time when

522
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 4: people really needed escapism, like energetic music. I think disco

523
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 4: was like kind of in the ether that year with

524
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 4: like Doja Kat and Dua Lipa or in that era

525
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 4: I mean, and I think I pulled a quote from

526
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 4: RM who said, like in the video where they announced

527
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 4: that they would like focus on their solo projects, he said, like,

528
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: I didn't know what we would do after On, but

529
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 4: then COVID came up, so we did Dynamite. Butter Permission

530
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 4: to dance. Life goes on and I realized that the group

531
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 4: has definitely changed. We have to accept that we've changed.

532
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 4: For me, it was like the group ETS was within

533
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 4: my grasp until On in Dynamite, but then after Butter

534
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 4: and Permission to dance, I didn't know what kind of

535
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 4: group we were anymore. What I get from that is

536
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 4: that they didn't really realize that Dynamite was gonna get

537
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 4: so big and they were just trying something. I think

538
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 4: they were trying a lot of new things where it

539
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 4: was a song where the group members like didn't participate

540
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 4: in songwriting, which was very rare for them. They got

541
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 4: some I believe Americans writers to co write a song

542
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 4: and then they just sang it and it was also

543
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 4: what's kind of unusual for the song is that all

544
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 4: the vocal lines for the members are all pretty much

545
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 4: the same, Like it's they all get like a couple

546
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 4: verses here and there, but it's not like RM and

547
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 4: Sugar and Jahope are rapping and then like there's a

548
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 4: specific like bridge or something for Chung Gup, like all

549
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,959
Speaker 4: of them kind of get a similar melody. And I

550
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 4: think that that was unusual at the time because it

551
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 4: was more of a straightforward pop song that they were

552
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 4: just like, Okay, we'll sing it. And so what RM

553
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 4: was kind of saying about like losing not being able

554
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 4: to grasp the group's identity anymore is that they made Dynamite,

555
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 4: it blew up, and then they I think the company

556
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 4: tried to recreate that magic with Butter, which I think

557
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 4: they did successfully. I love Butter personally, but then there

558
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 4: was like this expectation to either continue that sort of

559
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 4: standard pop music or what they go back to the

560
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 4: sort of creative, very BTS music that they made before.

561
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, And I mean they've all rolled out solo

562
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: albums at this point since they've been on their hiatus

563
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: for military service, and I'm curious, like in that identity sense,

564
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: like what do those solo albums say about where the

565
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: members of BTS are now?

566
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 4: Creative way I think I've kind of hinted before, But

567
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 4: I think also a magic of BTS is that all

568
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 4: of the members are so different. They have all such

569
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 4: different personalities, they all have such different tastes in music,

570
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 4: they express themselves in completely different ways, and that's not

571
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 4: the case with all K pop groups. Sometimes companies make

572
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 4: groups where they want the members to be somewhat similar

573
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 4: or want them to have a certain vibe, and with BTS,

574
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 4: they I feel like they really wanted people who were

575
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 4: all different and unique, and it feels like big hit

576
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 4: help foster that uniqueness, even if they did have to

577
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 4: come together as a group. And so I see the

578
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 4: solo albums as each of the members is really trying

579
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 4: to like challenge themselves to make their unique statement, make

580
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 4: the music that they couldn't make before. For RM, that

581
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 4: means making very like experimental indie folk to indie rock,

582
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 4: to like electronic R and B, and like kind of

583
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 4: going all over the place. That's what he did with Indigo.

584
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 4: With Jay Hope, that means making this like really intense

585
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 4: trap music and so on and so forth.

586
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: You've written so powerfully about spring Day and about the

587
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: sort of the emotional history of that song in its

588
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: place and their legacy and in their story. I guess

589
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: we're talking about different songs that represent different sort of

590
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: moments in their history. And you talk about the category

591
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 2: of yearning songs. Oh yeah, okay, I'm curious what other

592
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: categories you have in mind when you think about their music.

593
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 4: In terms of BTS categories. I would say there's the

594
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 4: really like hard hitting hip hop songs where they're just

595
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 4: going in with their lyricism and like traying like a

596
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 4: super cool like rap persona. So their songs like ooh,

597
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 4: their Cipher series. I love that category as well. And

598
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 4: I would also say they have songs that are about

599
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 4: like the power of friendship and like loving each other,

600
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 4: which I think is also very appealing to fans because

601
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 4: they like seeing like idols interact in terms of like

602
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 4: seeing like platonic intimacy in a way, and so those

603
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 4: songs are also really tender and wonderful. Yeah, and there's

604
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 4: also some songs that are more like social commentary, more

605
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 4: speaking from the perspective of youth and teenagers. And so

606
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 4: one of my other favorites is this song called silver Spoon,

607
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 4: which is just kind of talking to older generations, being like,

608
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 4: why do you keep on telling us to work harder

609
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 4: when society is not set up to help us out.

610
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 4: And so there's a lot of different categories with them,

611
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 4: which I think has helped their success a lot.

612
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: And finally, to sort of broaden out and to think

613
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: about the future of a lie like the five hundred

614
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: three of songs of all the time list, of course,

615
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: what do you kind of envision in the future, like

616
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: maybe a future kind of like a decade from now,

617
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: of like what songs you'd like to see on the

618
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: list beyond of course BTS, if there are, of course

619
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: BTS songs that you think should make a future version

620
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: of the list, but artists or songs that should be

621
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: represented in the future that's had a big impact both.

622
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: On K pop and pop music generally.

623
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 4: Yes, definitely. The first artist that came to mind was

624
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 4: maybe a New Gene song because I think they've had

625
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 4: such a strong impact on not only the K pop landscape,

626
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 4: a lot of aesthetics kind of followed since their debut,

627
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 4: So perhaps New Genes, But I think it would be

628
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 4: really interesting to like go back and look at sort

629
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 4: of the more seminole K pop songs and like see

630
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 4: if those have a place in the list. I helped

631
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 4: like make the one hundred best Songs in the History

632
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 4: of Korean pop music list for a Rolling Stone, and

633
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 4: our number one was g by Girls Generation, which is

634
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 4: just such a sugar bomb of a song, and I

635
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 4: think that we really try to recognize that song as

636
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 4: like there is a place for cuteness and loveliness in

637
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: pop music, and K pop girl groups really nail it,

638
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 4: and so I'm wondering if there can be more of

639
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 4: those vibes on the list.

640
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much. Michelle for joining us today.

641
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 3: I really appreciate it.

642
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thanks so much for listening to

643
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones five hundred Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought

644
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: to you by Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia Brittan. Hosted by Me,

645
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: Britney Spannis and Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Gus Winner,

646
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: Jason Fine, Alex Dale and Christian Horde, and produced by

647
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon, with music supervision by Eric Seiler