1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: What you hear in this podcast does not implicate any 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: individual or entity in any criminal activity. The views and 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: opinions are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast. 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: Previously on the Missionary My Friend Napocosa went to View 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: with Jesus. She told the story of Napocosa basically all 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: about how this girl was so neglected and abused her 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: whole life until you know, Renee came in and saved her, 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: and her fundraising took off on the back of that story. 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: But this is God's perfect end of her story, and 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: the story is not mine to write. The Musunglus that 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: found Napocosa, they're saying that she was neglected, that they 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: were trying to starve for Yeah, that's yeah, She's saying, 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, to us in Ducks, we are lying. A 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: Christian missionary is finding to clear her name tonight, following 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: accusations by two mothers in Uganda and a group called 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 1: No White Saviors that the Virginia woman contributed to the 17 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: deaths of they say, hundreds of babies by treating them 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: without a medical license. Renee, that is a serious allegation. 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: How do you respond? First off, I have never represented 20 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,919 Speaker 1: myself as a medical professional or health worker of any type. UM. 21 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: The organization serving his children hires UH medical professionals that 22 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: are Ugandan, UM, local and national folks, and UM I 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: have assisted our medical team in emergency settings and in 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: crisis situations. UM, but I have never practiced medicine, and 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: I have never adorned or put on any sort of 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: The segment is about five minutes long. Renee Box wearing 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: a ruffled blouse, her blonde hair formally swept back behind 28 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: her ear children and personal growth. I realized, and she 29 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: looks nervous. I wasn't even needed. She swivels in her 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: chair and her eyes darted around looking at someone off screen. 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: And so these accusations are incredibly disappointing, as I've spent 32 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: a majority of my adulthood UM serving in Uganda. It 33 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: was the first anyone had seen of Box since she 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: left Uganda in late two thousand eighteen, a couple of 35 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: months before the lawsuit was filed. And you've gotten in court. 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: Renee's attorney, David Gibbs, was split screen to Ansuer. So, David, 37 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: I know that you have said, UM, you believe this 38 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: group is potentially defaming her. They may be libelious and 39 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: slandering her. Would you consider legal action in return? Do 40 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: you think your case is strong enough? Well, Shannon, absolutely, 41 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: the case would be strong enough. The problem with these 42 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: reputational terrorists on the internet putting out information it's not 43 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: fact based, and it's very sad when a missionary, humanitarian 44 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: or any individual from the United States or any developed 45 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: nation wants to go into a third world or a 46 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: health crisis somewhere like da Uganda and they come under 47 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: these attacks with no way to really defend yourself affectively. 48 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: For months, I thought I was on a fool's errand 49 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: Renee was somewhere in Virginia according to our best guests, 50 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: unwilling to talk, and then she popped up on Fox News. 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: But it was my role on the team to understand 52 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: Renee's version of what happened and to interview her closest defenders, 53 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: which I was finding was going to require a lot 54 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: more patients and imagination than I anticipated. So there definitely 55 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: is a movement right now and the white savior complex 56 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: or white saviorism or kind of hot button topics um 57 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: at least in the world that I come from. In 58 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: association with I Heart Media I'm Malcolm Burnley, I'm Rogie Gola, 59 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: I'm Hollema Condi, and this is the Missionary episode three, 60 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: Good Samaritan. I've spoken to David Gibbs less than a 61 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: week before this interview aired in June. My only other 62 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: outreach to Renee had been through her mother, Laurie. She 63 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: took my calls for about six months until she eventually 64 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: stopped responding and texted me a number I longed to Gibbs. 65 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: It turns out Gibbs has a history with Fox News. 66 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: David Gibbs joins us. He was the attorney for Terry 67 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: Shivo's family, and he's now President and General counsel of 68 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: the National Center for Life and Liberty. David, thanks for 69 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: joining us, Shannon. It's a joy to be with you 70 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: on this Sunday, all right, So, Michael Shivo. If the 71 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: name Terry Shivo rings a bell, that's because her case 72 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: was a big deal. Back in the early two thousands. 73 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: Shivo quite simply redefined life and death in America, along 74 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: with the government's role in each of those things. The 75 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: ongoing debates over vaccines, abortion coverage, and the line between 76 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: individual freedom and public health in this pandemic they all 77 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: called back to Shiva. It was a war of ideas, 78 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: and Gibbs was on the front line. Is Governor Bush 79 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: was not trying to decide whether Terry Shiva lived or died. 80 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: He just wanted to make sure that fair new profit. 81 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: Shivo was a woman who had been comatose for fifteen 82 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: years when her husband us to pull life support. The 83 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: case made headlines and quickly became political. Everyone from the 84 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: Pope to President George W. Bush weighed in. Shivo had 85 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: no hope for improvement, according to doctors. Gibbs represented the 86 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: parents who wanted to keep her alive. We knew ultimately 87 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: her life was in the hands of God, but the 88 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: concern was that here was this woman who had no lawyer, 89 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: The judge never came to see her, and she was 90 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: going to die in this painful way. Shivo became a 91 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: martyr for pro life causes, and Gibbs was her apostle. 92 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: He wrote a book, Fighting for Dear Life when it 93 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: was all over, then founded a legal ministry that quote 94 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: serves to protect and defend Bible based values. Gibbs got 95 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: famous by asserting a woman's right to life, and now 96 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: he was defending a woman accused of taking life away. 97 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: We were originally contacted by a pastor in the Virginia 98 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: area that was familiar with Renee and her mom and 99 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: dad and also was one of the supporters of serving 100 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: as children. Our goal has been to help them as 101 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: they have worked through, you know, a very complicated media universe. 102 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: In the first two episodes, you heard a lot of 103 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: the accusations about Renee's medical involvement. In a five hundred 104 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: fifty page response to the lawsuits, she denies practically everything, 105 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: wearing a white coat, experimental dosing, even the blood transfusions. 106 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: And so I think I thought Gibbs might try to 107 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: overwhelm me with the details, plucking apart the allegations in 108 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: the lawsuit. She wasn't going in and doing surgeries, cutting 109 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: people open, you know, doing hearts or brains or I 110 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: mean things that obviously you need a lot of medical expertise, 111 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: and you need sophisticated training as well as staff. They're 112 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: providing nutrition services to combat a crisis that literally the 113 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: hospitals and others were unable to handle just due to 114 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: the volume. But mostly he focused on Renee's character and 115 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: he painted with a broad brush. Gibbs told me that 116 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: Renee was a good Samaritan. He said that she had 117 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: nothing to be sorry for it at all. Um. I 118 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: saw Renee's work and what she had done over her 119 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: time in Uganda is something that should be encouraged and 120 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: lifted up. And I was watching her be, you know, 121 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: literally crucified for trying to do the right thing. These families, 122 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: when you're desperate, they know their daughters dying, Renee is, 123 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: they're willing to help, and they're seeking help. The Renee's 124 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: of the world and others like her should be allowed 125 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: to provide help. According to her lawyer, Renee's story wasn't 126 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: about death, it was about life. Renee went to Uganda 127 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: looking to preserve it and fight for it, just like 128 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: Gibbs did with Shiva. They're ignoring the fact that thirty 129 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: six hundred children had their lives saved. What Sir Ring 130 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: his children did with a medical team there in Uganda 131 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: and under Renee's leadership, was truly remarkable. A lot of 132 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: people would walk away from a scene like that in Uganda, 133 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: maybe donate a few dollars, share a link on social media, 134 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: but they don't usually lean in like Renee two Gibbs. 135 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: That's commendable. If you're on an airplane and you've got 136 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: a dying child and you walk up to someone that's 137 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: say can you help me? And the person says, I 138 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: think I can. You're in in the Good Samaritan emergency situation, 139 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: and do we want to get to the point where 140 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: the doctor on the airplane says, you know what, I 141 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: don't want my name and reputation ruined. I don't want 142 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: to get sued. I don't want to get accused of 143 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: killing this guy. I think I'm just gonna stay in 144 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: my seat, buckled in, and whatever happens happens. But what 145 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: if on that plane during that emergency, some do gooder 146 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: pulls out a stethoscope from the overhead and pretends to 147 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: be a doctor. That's more like what Renee is accused of. 148 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: After that Fox interview, I figured what the hell? I 149 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: just drive to Renee's hometown. Bedford, Virginia is six hours 150 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: away from Philly. I let Gibbs know that I was 151 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: heading there, but as I got closer, something unexpected happened. 152 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: Gibbs sent me the address to a church. He basically said, 153 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: if I wanted to meet Renee, I could h This 154 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: was Renee's home court a brick church on a suburban street, 155 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: and when I entered the church, I noticed they still 156 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: had a flyer for Serving His Children on the bulletin board. 157 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: The flyer asked for donations from cycle breakers to help 158 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: end malnutrition in Uganda. Renee and Laurie Bach I don't 159 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: know if they mentioned that we're gonna be there, said 160 00:09:55,000 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: there's a library. The receptionist was and expecting me, so 161 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: she called for the Reverend Maltain Burley. Thank you. At 162 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: the top of a flight of stairs, I found a classroom. 163 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: The chairs were stocked around the perimeter and the chalkboard 164 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: was wiped clean. I do thank you so much. A 165 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: woman was waiting for me. She wore a hoodie, jeans 166 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: and a half hearted smile when she shook my hand. 167 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: Could you just introduce yourself, say your name and my name, 168 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: and I guess your affiliation with serving I'm Renee Back, 169 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 1: the founder and former director of Serving his Children. People 170 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: ask me if Renee's in jail when I casually bring 171 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: up this story. Renee is free to celebrate birthdays with 172 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: her two adopted daughters, eat home cooked meals, and isn't 173 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: even charged with a felony in the US or in Uganda, 174 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: but she seemed tense, perhaps unconvinced this was a good 175 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: due to be talking with me. It's hard, but tell 176 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: me where you're at right now and what you how 177 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: you've been yet. Yeah, it's been challenging for sure. No 178 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: one wants to be be said to be, you know, murderer, 179 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: but there has been and there will be some pretty 180 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: serious counseling after all this. Um, it's been pretty emotionally damaging, 181 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: no doubt. I'm not trying to play the victim in 182 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: that or anything, but to hear it from her, she's 183 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: in a special kind of deal. She isn't working, and 184 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: she assumes she may never work again. She says. Strangers 185 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: stop her in public and ask if she's the one 186 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: people have forgotten that I'm a human, like in a 187 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: person with emotions and someone who has children that are 188 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: going to grow up one day and google their mom's 189 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: name and say, Wow, was my mom a serial killer? 190 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: Did she start a genocide? Because that's what people said 191 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: about her. Renee was even in touch with the FBI 192 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: regarding death threads. I'm being watched closely, like I'm being 193 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: watched in my home I'm being watched everywhere I go. 194 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: I feel like people are watching me. I've visited my 195 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: sister in California and people were taking pictures in the 196 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: airport of me. Renee's sister is an actual doctor, by 197 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: the way, you know, the police have put cameras up 198 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: at my parents house and all kinds of things like that, 199 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: which is very unusual because I grew up in an 200 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: environment where like, you go out of town for two 201 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: weeks and you don't lock your door because what if 202 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: the neighbor needs a cup of sugar, you know, and 203 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 1: just like can wander on over. And that's just a 204 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: terrible feeling to feel insecure about your safety and the 205 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: safety of your kids and your family. And yeah, it's 206 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: been really sad, to be honest. Renee sounded paranoid, which 207 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: explained why we were meeting in a clandestine location. I 208 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: was asked to keep the name of the church anonymous 209 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: gibbs Us on speaker phone. Her mother, Laurie, was taking 210 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: notes on a laptop off to the side. They were 211 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 1: all eager to position Renee as a victim of an 212 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: online smear campaign. Here's Laurie box Well on social media. 213 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: Has facilitated a whole made up story that you know, 214 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: you can just say what you want and it's viewed 215 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: as the Gospel treat which is scary. World. Yeah, Renee 216 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: was playing the victim here no matter what she said, 217 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: and this mountain case against her. It was obviously not 218 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: fake news. We do uncovered too much already. It was 219 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: also true, though, that Renee was getting hammered all over 220 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: social media tweets like she's the butcher of Uganda and 221 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: her name is Renee Bach and in a parallel universe, 222 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: Hollywood will make a billion dollar fictional movie about this, 223 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: and somehow managed to paint Renee Bach as a complicated, 224 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: tragically flawed, and yet well intentioned woman whispers we inhabit 225 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: the parallel universe. Despite this, Renee was optimistic and listening 226 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: to Monica Lewinsky's Ted talk. A lot of what she 227 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: says really resonates with me. And that like her name 228 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: was just put it on like the scandal, you know, 229 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: it was like the Monica Lewinsky scandal, and so people 230 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: forgot that she was a human being, an evangelical woman 231 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 1: finding solace in Monica Lewinsky. I definitely didn't expect that, 232 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: but I understood what she meant once I listened to 233 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: Lewinsky's Ted talk, what that meant for me personally was 234 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: that overnight I went from being a completely private figure 235 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: to a publicly humiliated one worldwide. I was patient zero 236 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: of losing a personal reputation on a global scale almost instantaneously. 237 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: But the more Renee talked about Lewinsky, the more I 238 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: realized she was making a different point entirely. For Renee, 239 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: Lewinsky was a story of redemption, like maybe she could 240 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: use this unwanted notoriety and channel it into good, into 241 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: a form of service. Here's Renee again for good. I 242 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: mentioned Monica Lewinski before, but it's been cool to see 243 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: her like now really creating this platform and foundation for 244 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: you know, anti bullying and cyber bullying and things like that. 245 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: I think that, like what a cool testimony of taking 246 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: something that was so horrific and so destructive and turning 247 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: it into a way to really like resonate with people 248 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: in a really hard spot and really help people. So 249 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: seeing a few people that have gone through really hilacious 250 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: trials um and kept their head up and been honoring 251 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: has been a life giving encouragement to me. I'll admit 252 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: I was deeply interested in the fall from Grace narratives, 253 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: what it was like to be chosen and special in 254 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: one moment, exiled in the next. But I never got 255 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: what I wanted. I never got the Renee of her 256 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: blog posts. Her storytelling and introspection were much less impactful. 257 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: In person. Something felt like it was just missing or 258 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: it was guarded from me. And then Renee started telling 259 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: me why that those blog posts were deeply flawed and 260 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: the problem with them was that they had an unreliable 261 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: narrator Renee herself and a lot of my years of blogging. 262 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: I was young, and I wanted to share, like life 263 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: can look so different than what I thought it looked 264 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: like as a girl from a rural town in America. Yeah, 265 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: so I wanted people to understand that, like, there's this 266 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: world outside of yourself that's so amazing and so beautiful 267 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: and so raw and like so painful, but like also 268 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: can be so beautiful, and like a mural can be 269 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: making made out of that brokenness. Um, and I really 270 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: did want to convey that to the readers. And I 271 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: mean when we first came across the blogs, they felt 272 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: like journalistic treasure. Thirty two thousand words that came straight 273 00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: from Renee. Each passage a fossil on the sand, together 274 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: a skeleton for our entire investigation. Now, Renee was claiming 275 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: that she had a propensity for stretching the truth in 276 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: her writing. And I think I really wrote in first 277 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: person a lot um, and so I would say, you know, oh, 278 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: this kid came in and then you know, we started 279 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: the idea, and how come up to oxygen and did 280 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: all these things and um, and I think it really 281 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: reads as though I was doing those things personally, And 282 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: so I can understand how someone would read and think 283 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: like she's just doing all this stuff, like she knows 284 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: what she's doing, you know, um, whereas it was really 285 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: a team. It was so mind boggling it. Renee was 286 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: accused of being a fake doctor, and part of her 287 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: defense was to admit to misrepresenting herself in a different way. 288 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: You know, I wrote it as this was my experience, um, 289 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: and instead of saying like the nurse ran whatever or um, right, 290 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: there were several people there that day, um, and so 291 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: I was definitely involved in all the activities. Renee says 292 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: she kept writing in first person for a simple reason 293 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: because people will pay money to support that kind of narrative, 294 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: and we did. You know, people are emotional impulse givers, 295 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: and so we did receive a lot of you know, 296 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: financial support through people who read my blogs. Um, just 297 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: reading and realizing the raw need and then feeling like, hey, 298 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: I want to be a part of that and would 299 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: give monetarily. So yeah, that was really the goal. And 300 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: I really we had spent hours occupied by these blogs. 301 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: They were so central to Renee's legend, which meant that 302 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: to accept her truth, to accept that broad swass of 303 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: her writing were fabrications. Well, then it threw into question 304 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: everything we knew about Renee. Regieve. Do you remember what 305 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 1: you thought after spending all that time reading those blogs 306 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: to hear that Renee said they were actually exaggerated? Oh man, yeah, 307 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: I remember, just not knowing who Renee was anymore. I mean, 308 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: I've heard so many things, so much my understanding of 309 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: Renee came from the community, came from these blogs, and 310 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: everything was just falling out from underneath us, and I 311 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: didn't know where we stood. Of course, there was another explanation, 312 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: and perhaps a simpler one, that Renee was denouncing her 313 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: blog post because well they looked bad. For her case, 314 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: no one could prove she didn't exaggerate her writing, so 315 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: it was all too convenient. If we wanted to get 316 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: to the bottom of who Renee really was, we needed 317 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: to go back to the beginning to Bedford, Virginia. Turn 318 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: the line onto East Main Street. Signs for US sixty 319 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: west US to North Virginia, North Virginia, Bedford. One of 320 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: the first things you noticed about Bedford, Virginia are the 321 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: lamp posts up and down Main Street. The post carry 322 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: the names and faces of the Bedford Boys, the young 323 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: bab be faced men who died at the beaches of 324 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: Normandy June ninth. The crossfire of German guns still rakes 325 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: the shore. The town lost more men per capita on 326 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: d Day than anywhere else in the country. Out on 327 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: the chunnel, the rescue boats of the Coast Guard are 328 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: looking for survivors and aiding damaged vessels, and the hospital 329 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: ships are waiting for the Renee grew up among these ghosts. 330 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: Their spirit looms over the town. Wounded man has transferred 331 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: to another ship, the life saving blood plasma goes with him. 332 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: This idea of sacrificing for something that's bigger than yourself 333 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: It's easy to see how a young Renee was inspired 334 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: by that idea because it drives her family life too. 335 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: Here's Renee talking about her childhood on a quip FM 336 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: back when Renee was just a feel good story. I 337 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: grew up in a family of five and basically lived 338 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: all of my young childhood and teenage years right here 339 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: in Bedford. I got saved, you could say, when I 340 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: was very young. Um, but it wasn't until my high 341 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: school in middle school years that I really understood what 342 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: having a relationship with Jesus Christ looked like. The box 343 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: live on a modest farm with a bunch of animals. 344 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: The walls are lined with inspiration passages from philosophers, Bible versus, 345 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: even Mumford and Sons lyrics love It will not betray you, 346 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: dismay or enslave you, It will set you free. Lorie 347 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: homeschooled Renee and her four siblings. She taught them to 348 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: take risks and to pursue self mastery in their learning. 349 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: When she was ten, her parents started a nonprofit organization, 350 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: Many Blessings Farm, where they provided writing therapy for children 351 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: with special needs. As a teenager, Renee scheduled volunteers spotted 352 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: children on horseback and oversaw barn duty and so that 353 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: was a huge part of my middle school in high 354 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: school years was doing hippotherapy. So you know, it's kind 355 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: of like therapeutic writing. Being able to just take part 356 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: in kids that were a little bit different than me 357 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: definitely sparked a desire and need to be able to 358 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: help people. Um, just because there was one horse named 359 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: Sienna who stole Renee's heart. Later on, Sienna developed congenital 360 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: eye defects, and treating him meant around the clock care. 361 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: Every four hours, someone had to apply a stinging ointment 362 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: to his eyes. Lauria wrote to me in an email. 363 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: God used Renee's horse to teach her many things. Here's 364 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: Lauria again in the alarm, go up every four hours, 365 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: and Renee was to get up and get a flash 366 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: like the barn and me and home working comes back 367 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: and go to Renee was like the valedictorian of her 368 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: tiny home school, destined for greater things. Everyone knew it. 369 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: Here's Renee's youth pastor rich heart. She always had a 370 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: book in her hand whenever she was by herself, and 371 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: I think it's one of the ways that she just 372 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: she could self, teach herself, learn or you know, if 373 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: she didn't know the answer, she could find out. She 374 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: had a great imagination and desire for discovery and adventure. 375 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: Hopefully you can hear his admiration even with a crappy 376 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: audio quality. But it wasn't just her intelligence or drive 377 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,239 Speaker 1: that made her stand out in a religious community like 378 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: the one Renee grew up in. Greatness is defined by 379 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: service to others, and it didn't matter if Renee was 380 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: volunteering at her family nonprofit or rebuilding homes after Katrina. 381 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: She was different. She was a leader, anointed by the 382 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: adults around her, a walking embodiment of selflessness. It wasn't 383 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: this arrogance. It was never this condescending like I already 384 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: know the answer, you know. I mean, people can come 385 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: in with confidence, but it can be abrasive. She never 386 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: had that. I mean, it was always a humility coupled 387 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: together with that confidence that just I think is what 388 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: made her so approachable. And white people were just willing 389 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 1: to be led by her, but wanted to follow her 390 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: because they trusted her. I spoke with Gibbs a week 391 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: before that Fox interview aired, a week before meeting Renee. 392 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: But a week before that, I was sitting in a 393 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: coffee shop with, as Gibbs would put it, her very 394 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: own reputational terrorist. I think that a lot of white 395 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: people fetishize black suffering, were like get off on black suffering, 396 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: And I think that's exactly what seeing those pictures of 397 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: those like malnourished like Ugandan babies, people love that ship 398 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: like it's just like pulling out my heart trees, like 399 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: there's something like you kind of like get off on it. 400 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: It's like really sick. And so that's why I think 401 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: she got as vague and popular as she did within 402 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: Virginia community but also outside. That's Kelsey Nielsen of No 403 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: White Saviors, who we heard from an episode one. She's 404 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: a co founder of the group that's put the spotlight 405 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: on Renee and been heavily involved in the lawsuit in Uganda. 406 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 1: It turns out Kelsey is from outside Philly, where I live, 407 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: So we met up in person a few times in 408 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: a popular black owned coffee shop called Uncle Bobby's her choice. 409 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: She wore beaded earrings and has tattoos running up her arm. 410 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: And I think people that are very paralyzed by saying 411 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: like I want to help but I don't want to 412 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: be like a white savior. It's looking at like, okay, well, 413 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: if you actually care about the needs, how are you 414 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: doing it? Are you doing it for yourself? Are you 415 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 1: doing it for and like do you need recognition for it? 416 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: Do you need to post about it? Like I think 417 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: that is with the air of social media? Is to Kelsey, 418 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: Renee wasn't a good Samaritan or even well intentioned. She 419 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: was exploiting a desperate situation for her own gain, pretending 420 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: to be a hero. In reality, she was a white savior, 421 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: someone scoring points off other people's misery. That's what Kelsey believed. 422 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: It's also just knowing that she's not the only one 423 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: like this is not Renee is not the only person 424 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: doing this, not in Uganda, not globally, and there needs 425 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: to be a new standard set. White saviors are an 426 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: old trope. Attic is finch in our courts, all equal 427 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 1: the blind side never had them before? What a room 428 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: to yourself? But well yeah, well now, whether it's books 429 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: or movies, you see these brave heroes taking a stand 430 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: for the less fortunate, and part of their bravery is 431 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: always crossing a color line. No more colored restaurants. No 432 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: more white restaurants. Harry Nasa. We all pay the same color. 433 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 1: The stories perpetuate this myth that black people need saving, 434 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: but it's way more insidious than that. The trope allows 435 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: white people to see themselves as heroes of their own 436 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: good deeds, the protagonists of racial solidarity, even when they're 437 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: not always helping. In Tissue, Cole wrote about what he 438 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: called the white savior industrial complex. Africa has provided a 439 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: space onto which white egos can conveniently be projected. It 440 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: is a liberated space in which the usual rules do 441 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: not apply. Nobody from America or Europe can go to 442 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: Africa and become a godlike savior, or at the very 443 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: least have his or her emotional needs satisfied. Many have 444 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: done it under the banner of making a difference. Cole 445 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: and Kelsey are both describing a fine line. One person's 446 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: good Samaritan is another's white savior. And if you're not 447 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: asking yourself the difference, especially if you're working in Africa, 448 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: you might just be on the wrong side of it. 449 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: You're in this microcolumn and bubble of like like white 450 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: saviorism isn't just acceptable, it's actually like lifted up is this, Like, 451 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: this is what you should be doing as much sacrifice, 452 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: as much, the more, the more crazy, the more overworked 453 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: entire to you are, the more the more you're doing 454 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: outside of your qualifications, the more you're letting this is 455 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: the mentality, the more you're letting God use you and 456 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: and equip you. Like that's literally what people believe. Renee 457 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,239 Speaker 1: was not living under a rock. She was listening to 458 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: the criticism, trying to understand her own relationship to race 459 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: and white saviors too. She said so in her Fox interview. 460 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: I have to say that when I went to Uganda 461 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: the first time, I was a young American woman boarding 462 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: a plane to Africa, and I definitely had a white 463 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: savior complex. Um. I mean, my desire to go to 464 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: Uganda was was to help people and to serve. And 465 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: I think that oftentimes anyone coming from a culture such 466 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: as America or a culture where we would say we've 467 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: had great privilege, um, going into a culture that is 468 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: stated to be, you know, underdeveloped, with a lack of resources, 469 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: anyone could be considered a white savior in that environment. 470 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: And I was not immune to that myself. I am 471 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: proud to after that meeting at church. Renee gave me 472 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: another interview and another We spoke again at the church, 473 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: then every few weeks by phone, and it took a while, 474 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: but we eventually talked about her chronology in Uganda. She 475 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: first arrived in Uganda in September two thousand seven alone. 476 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: She never traveled abroad before. My goal and purpose and 477 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: going was to work for an orphanage. They had a 478 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: very well established volunteer program. I didn't know anyone there 479 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: or really have any other connection or draw except for 480 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: the fact that they seemed to have a good program. 481 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: They kind of catered to younger girls who wanted more 482 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: of like an exposure experience than anything. Really. That orphanage 483 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: was called a money baby cottage. It was a popular 484 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: launching pad for young missionaries in Uganda. Kelsey Nielsen got 485 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: her start at the same orphanage just a couple of 486 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: years after Renee. It was like the gateway drug. It's 487 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: smoking need for like white Samerism, and then like they're 488 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: on heroin now everyone all of us are there and 489 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: that's one by like a fundamentalist Christian. The running joke 490 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: about a money within missionary circles is that Americans find 491 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 1: it solely because it's at the top of volunteering lists. 492 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: Its initials are ABC. So I did a lot of 493 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: things like folded laundry and served meals, and based a 494 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: lot of babies because they bade their babies like eight 495 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: times a day, um, and you know, organized storage closets 496 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: and cleaned toys just ever was needed. The problem was 497 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: it was just busy work. Back in the US, Renee 498 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: was used to being in control. She was a leader 499 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: in her youth ministry, but here at the orphanage she 500 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: was non essential. So she began working for other nonprofits 501 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: in her free time. The founders of one of these 502 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: NGOs left abruptly, so they turned to Renee with the keys. 503 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: It was kind of ridiculously crazy. I mean I had 504 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: known them for maybe six weeks, very casually, and they 505 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: were like removing you our program for us. Here's our 506 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: credit card and our house and our car keys, and 507 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: just like here the things you need to do. And 508 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: I was like, well what, I moved into their house 509 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: started running their programs for them. I really had no 510 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: idea what I was doing. They just kind of gave 511 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: me a breach tutorial and then we're like me out. 512 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: This happened Within just a few months of her arrival, 513 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: Renee go to peek at the local hospital. Through her 514 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 1: work at this NGO, her first glimpses of the Ugandan 515 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: medical system horrified her. I mean, when I first moved 516 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: to Uganda, the quality of care was well, it was bad. 517 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: It was bad. They had moved past reusing needles, but 518 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: like they weren't far past it and still to this day. 519 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: I mean, in busy seasons there are people lining hallways 520 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: and corches and there's you know, rats and cockroaches. But 521 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: when I moved there there was a mentality of you 522 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: have two patients, and which one has a better chance 523 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: of life? This one than this one? You pick and 524 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: this one you leave. It's like you were, you know, 525 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: color coding people on like a warfield, you know, like 526 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: red tag like don't even bother, you know, and it 527 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: sounds horrible and crass and just like disgusting, But it's 528 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: what they had to do, you know, they could choose 529 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: to be. This was over a decade ago. Renee was 530 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: impressionable searching for her own path, and what she found 531 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: was that the doors of the Uganda medical system were 532 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: wide open for her as long as she could stomach 533 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: what she saw. After this short trip to Uganda, Renee 534 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: was planning to apply to college, but a turning point 535 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: came in December two thousand seven. It was her first 536 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: Christmas away from home. Renee drove along one of the 537 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: tributaries to the Nile River, a massive waterway of its own. 538 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: She drove a diesel power advance of the hospital in Ginger, 539 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: carrying a load of mangoes, flatbreads, and snacks. She walked 540 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: into a room with narrow rows of metal cribs holding 541 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: sleeping newborns, including five belonging to a woman named Dorothy Namunana. 542 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: The quintuplets were two weeks old and they all weighed 543 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: less than three pounds. The doctors wanted to monitor the babies, 544 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: so Dorothy was stuck in the hospital. This is from 545 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: another phone call I recorded with Renee kids for a 546 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: long time when she had the babies, her husband's like 547 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: basically took off because he was freaked out. Um and 548 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: so the way she explained, it's like he ran into 549 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: the hurricane field and he never came back. Like she 550 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: was just exhausted. She never slept and at the time 551 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: she didn't really have anyone of the hospital, staying with 552 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: her to help her, And so she was just stuck 553 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: in that like scorching hot room all the time, fading 554 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: her babies because it took so long for them to 555 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: eat such a little bit. They were just so tiny. 556 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: I'd never seen a baby down tiny before. Renee visited 557 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: Dorothy nearly every day for weeks, bringing her fresh clothes 558 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: and food and helping her feed the newborns. The babies 559 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: were doing well despite being so small. During one of 560 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: her regular visits, she brought her friend Katie, but when 561 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,479 Speaker 1: they entered Dorothy's room, they noticed one of the little 562 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: girls was coughing. Renee picked up the baby and felt 563 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: her belly. It was tight, her breathing was slow, and 564 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: then the baby stopped breathing entirely. Renee thought about doing 565 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: CPR and the baby, but she feared it would crush her. 566 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: Katie ran to get help. In a blog post, Renee wrote, 567 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: by the time Katie got back ten minutes later, with 568 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 1: no doctor, she had already died in my arms. Katy 569 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: and I declared her dead. Not a single doctor or 570 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: nurse had come when we left forty five minutes later. 571 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: No one knows why she died. I guess that Jesus 572 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: wanted that baby with him. You just think, like, oh, 573 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: when someone dies, it's like this huge traumatic thing that 574 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: like you know, everyone's like scrambling and trying to like 575 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: save this person. But like no one was scrambling. No 576 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: one was trying to save that baby. I mean, other 577 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: than my friend nine, we're looking for a doctor to Renee, 578 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: the situation didn't have to be so desperate. She saw 579 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: at the hospital a lack of willpower, a reluctance to 580 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: help or even pay attention, and the dead child she 581 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,240 Speaker 1: held in her arms. She became a call to action. 582 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: I definitely felt that sense of responsibility to like fight 583 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: on behalf of those parents who felt like they didn't 584 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: have any energy left to fight or that no one 585 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: would hear them. Renee set out to create a place 586 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,760 Speaker 1: for more Dorothy Nominanas, a place where families would be loved, 587 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: where no baby would die neglect. A lot of people 588 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: would say, oh, why did you do this or why 589 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: did you do that? And it's like, have you ever 590 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: been put in a situation like that? Do you know 591 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: what you would do? Because like it's a tough call, 592 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: and sometimes you have like minutes to make it, and 593 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: you have to live with yourself with the answer of 594 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: that for the rest of your life. In a crisis, 595 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: when the experts and systems are failing around you, it's 596 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: natural to want to do something, to pitch in to 597 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: help flatten the curve. H Now imagine your Renee interpreting 598 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,439 Speaker 1: this very human desire as something more as a call 599 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 1: from a higher power. Doing nothing at all is sometimes 600 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: the best thing to do. We know that all too 601 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: well these days. But you never hear about God compelling 602 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: people towards inaction, do you. Recently? It's been like, well, 603 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: is everything I did just a total lie and like 604 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: not meaningful in any way? And why would I feel 605 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: so called to have been in this place for really 606 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: my entire adulthood and then just have it all crashing down? 607 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: What is the purpose? Renee was starting to open up, 608 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: but it was easy to confuse that access for trust. 609 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: About a month after meeting Renee, Laurie called me to 610 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: let me know that they no longer be participating in 611 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: the podcast. They'd heard some things about my co host 612 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: Bgive and what he'd been up to in ginger the 613 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: Deception in the story. It was about to get much darker. 614 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: We could see a web of conspiracies building around the 615 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: margins of our investigation, and slowly but surely, we were 616 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: being pulled into it ourselves. That's next on The Missionary. 617 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: The Missionaries, produced in association with I Heart Media. It's 618 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: written and reported by Roger Gola, Helemage Condi and Malcolm Burnley. 619 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: It's produced by Michelle Lands and Ryan Murdoch. Mark Lotto 620 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 1: is our story editor. Our executive producer is Mangish Thicketter. 621 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: Our fact checker is Austin Thompson. Mixing by Josh Rogison, 622 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: voice acting by Taylor Kaufman and special thanks to equip FM.