WEBVTT - A Glimpse Into the Crypto ETF Future 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:09.000 Welcome a Strillians. I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric bel Tunis. 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:15.000 So we had a plan and then as usual, you 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:16.960 were like, wait, I got a better plan. What's your 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:21.920 better plan for this episode? The better plan is, um, look, 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.560 crypto it just I can't escape it. Right. You had 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.760 Elon Musk on Satday Live does Coin. You've had Gary 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.440 Gamser of the SEC come out and talk about crypto exchanges. 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:35.680 That's kind of maybe put a little cold water on 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.000 our you know, outlook of when a bitcoin e t 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:40.720 F might here be approved here. Then you also see 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:42.760 up in Canada the E three e t f s 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.640 and the bitcoin ETFs are relentless. Normally a new launch 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.560 like comes out hard and then like trickles, these things 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.040 are are right there where they were. And so you 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.960 can tell there's this breadth and depth and the issue 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.920 is just really taken over. And so I thought we 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.720 would go over this with somebody who I consider to 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:03.080 be like three years into the future. It's almost like 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:05.800 we are going to get to see what the US 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.200 might look like in about you know, twenty four to 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.280 thirty six months. And this is Ophelia Snyder, who's co 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.680 founder of twenty one shares um over in Europe, you 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:16.720 can launch whatever you want. It's like free for all 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:20.360 over there. And so she has a lineup of get this, 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.680 fourteen different crypto et f s. I haven't even heard 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:26.080 of three or four of them, So that's how far 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.640 ahead of the curve she is. So I just would 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.600 really like to get her take on how she did it, 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:35.319 how it works, the market making, the exchanges, and just 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.679 what it's like to basically manage this full line of 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:39.880 crypto et f s, which is probably what we're going 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.800 to see from big issues like Fidelity and van X 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:47.080 some day. We're also joined by James Safered again of 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:53.560 Bloomberg Intelligence, this time on Trillions going full crypto with 0:01:53.600 --> 0:02:02.520 Ophelia Snyder. Ophelia, James, welkn Trillions for having me. James. 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:04.800 We're not really here for you, We're here for Ophelia, 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.280 but I want to start with you. Can you set 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:09.080 the table a little bit about what's going on in 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.119 crypto right now? Eric, Eric laid a good a good 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.079 groundwork here. As you talked about Elon going on SNL 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.880 or all this doge coin rallying like crazy. Crypto just 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.720 seems to be just part of the ecosystem. Whether you're 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.520 on Twitter or in finance, no matter what you do, 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.680 there's some sort of crypto being spoken about. In my area. 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.679 I'm always covering anyone filing new e t F to 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.440 launch bitcoin or any crypto ETF. There's now four different 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.480 issuers who have filed what's called a nineteen be four 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:40.600 and you don't need to get into the specifics, but 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.560 essentially it's people filing with an exchange for a rule 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.720 change to allow a bitcoin et F on US exchanges. Um. 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.359 So that's what we're watching heavily in the U S. Okay, 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:55.000 so Aphilia, welcome to trillions and and look like you're 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.720 talking to a lot of Americans who who you know, 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:03.440 don't have access to your products. And you know here 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:06.000 you are from the future, so so talk to us 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.280 from the future. And what are we missing out on? 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:13.240 So I think when when I think about Europe and 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:19.560 crypto ATPs and a t S, um, we've been incredibly lucky. Uh. 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:21.880 The all of our products are based about this was 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.680 market and the Swiss took a completely different approach to 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.440 crypto regulation, which was right out of the gate. Let's 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.799 get it defined, let's get a structure in place, let's 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:32.760 tell people what they can and can't do. It's a 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.240 very well defined box. If you're willing to plan it, 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:37.600 you can get a lot of fleeway within that box. 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.280 And I think we've spent a lot of time talking 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.440 to both our unregulators and other regulators trying to get 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.680 them comfortable with this. And it took a very long 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:51.040 time to get this product structure right. Um. We did 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:52.360 it at a point in time when there was no 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:57.080 infrastructure really, so you had regulatory clarity but no infrastructure, 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.320 which is a completely different landscape that I think a 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:04.200 lot of these US applicants rendering where there is infrastructure, 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.440 they just don't have clarity on the regulatory side. Um. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.440 So for us, it became an exercise in figuring out 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.000 understanding what that sandbox we could play in would look like, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.599 figuring out how to fit into it really well, and 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.120 then figuring out how to actually launch a thing that 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.400 no one had done before that all of the traditional 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:27.560 like et F players, no one would help you. This 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:32.400 was no one was willing to actually help you operationalize product, 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.240 and so we ended up getting a really interesting crash 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.719 course in like the plumbing of what it takes to 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.200 make an E t F function. Uh, and that ended 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.359 up being where we spent most of our time and 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.880 product developments, the complete opposite of the U S landscape. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.000 Could we break this down a little bit so explain, 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.440 because I think people are interested. If you're starting an 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:55.520 E t F, what do you need? What is the 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:59.159 plumbing and just how did you accomplish it? If you 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.320 break down a need t up to what it actually is, right, 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.680 it's a box that you put stuff in that has 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.560 to trade at the same value as the components of 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:08.919 what's inside the box. It's really all it is, right, 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:10.880 And the closer you get these two things to work together. 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.080 The way in which you actually make that happen is 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:18.400 a combination of some pretty intense data distribution, some pretty 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:23.080 intense like calculations that come around that, and an ability 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.440 to interact with marketing makers efficiently and then actually get 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.000 them securities into their hands. Right. Ultimately, that's what you're doing. 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.159 We take in crypto, we give you a security. We 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.040 need to do that in such a way that the 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.440 contents of the box and the box with its contents 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.760 in it trade roughly at the same tis. But normally 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:41.840 you would go to a stage tree to b N 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:43.800 Y and say hey, I would like to set up 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.640 this box, and they will manage the funds in, the 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.680 funds out, the data distribution, the fund accounting calculations, all 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.400 the administration of your fund, all of the legal structuring. 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:54.880 There are companies that do that. There are underwriters, there's 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:59.320 a ton of people who do package things to make 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.280 these products work, and it becomes like the role of 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.039 NESSEA manager becomes quite different, and that you really come 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.440 in not to operationalize a product, but to run a strategy. 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.760 The difference in in crypto is that, so roll back 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.000 the clock, no one had the technical infrastructure to do 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.840 this because you basically have two separate systems. You have 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.479 securities that need to do stuff and you have crypto 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.760 that needs to do a different set of things. They're 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.960 not really well connected in any way, so you actually 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.080 had to we had to build infrastructure to bridge that. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.200 We ended up creating a platform that actually manages all 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:36.680 of your subscriptions and redemptions, the ins and outs of 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.560 the product. Our relationships with market makers are fund accounting 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.360 all the way through the custody reconciliations, and it basically 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.880 plugs into our own platform, and we had to develop 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.920 a house because at the time no one could serves it. Okay, 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.000 So I guess it's it's good to jump in, and 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:54.760 I guess one thing we start with is just talking 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.279 about the reasons the SEC has denied all these bitcoin 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.839 et f or crypto ETFs in the past. Asket and 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.839 get your views on them first is one of the 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.840 They're concerned about NAV calculation and being the market is 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.040 so segmented on many different exchanges. Um there's no like 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.520 central authority and just getting an accurate NAV, which from 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.080 my point of view, we've seen plenty of issues where 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.520 navs are inaccurate, especially in the fixed income market. Even 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:21.840 in the US we saw it during the pandemic. I 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:23.840 don't see it as an issue, but it's evident in 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.560 the SEC's replies that they're concerned about it. So I 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.640 guess first, I guess would be about a question about 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.440 arbitrage and market makers and how your products are working 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.720 and how you think it will work in the US. 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:38.720 So we don't really see any substantial premiumser discains from 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:43.360 a market making infrastructure perspective, it's quite straightforward at this point, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.680 like we've been running these products for three years. They 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:50.280 almost three years they are They trade quite easily, cryptos 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:55.280 very liquid. It has uniqueness in its settlement structure. UM 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.000 that has certain considerations. Let's just do some really coal 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.880 stuff that has its own drawbacks, and I think ultimately 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:03.760 you don't see a ton of issues in terms of 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.559 market making and accuracy and in trading and those types 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:12.320 of things. The way we've structured our products, we don't 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.240 do cash curations at all, so we don't really trade. Now. 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:17.800 Now it becomes a rough No one really uses it 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.880 for anything, either for trading the products actively although we 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.120 publish I nows and things like that, or for creations reductions, 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.760 which is not something we do. We actually price everything 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.800 in Kryptic makes it much more transparent. You look at 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.240 an entitlement model out of gold people love to talk 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.439 about big point is, you know the expiration of gold. 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:36.800 Treat it like that, price it that way. It makes 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:38.800 a ton of sense UM in the same way you 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.040 would have like an ounce per you know, ounces per 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.400 share and a gold ETF like j l D structure 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.120 that works really well. It's really transparent, and then you 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.400 sort of get away from some of these pricing issues. 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.120 UM from having them actually be impactful to the product itself. 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.600 I think the broader question you're asking is about crypto 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.800 pricing now, right, it seemed as though the SEC was 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.120 really prime to approve it this year. My over under 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:08.040 his septem Dave Nadig, who knows a lot, His is 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.280 in August, because that's exactly six months after Canada, which 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.640 is we always follow Canada. Reggie Brown, who is more 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:18.960 plugged in than either of us, says January anyway, regardless 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:25.360 of two Sorry, um, time's flying. Uh. Here's what Gamser 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:30.680 said though about bitcoin exchanges. We need greater investor protection 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.880 here there. We don't have a federal regime overseeing the 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:38.360 crypto exchanges. There's a gap in our system. Now again, 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.600 it almost seems like if he wants to make all 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.920 of the crypto exchanges perfect or or as good as 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:48.080 say the stock market, it could be a long time. 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.320 Others say, well, he's just saying that to buy space 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.080 and time. It's like, all right, look, give me a 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:54.679 couple of months here. I'm gonna say that just to 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.560 pour more cold water than I need. But here's my point. 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.160 Aren't these the same exp changes that all the issuers 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.200 are using and it seems to be working fine. Oh 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:10.080 so I have a controversial opinion. I guess um, I 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:15.280 am not anti regulation. I'm actually I think it's great ideas. 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.960 I think as long as we have regulatory clarity, the 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:23.599 rest is fine. I don't think crypto as a industry 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.199 has any problem with meaning. Whatever standard it is people 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:27.959 want to have that. I think the problem is no 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.800 one's ever said the standard. It's a different issue. I 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:33.240 see it in Switzerland right that. The reason our business 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:34.839 is able to grow the way it is is because 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.080 we have a very defined set of roles. We follow them. 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:39.959 As long as we follow them, everything is great and 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.880 there's no risk associated with that. I guess my question 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.440 is do you feel, as somebody who operates with the 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.719 exchanges and your market makers have to use them, do 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:52.440 you think they need more investor protection or are they okay? 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.560 You can have an e t F operating and have 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.600 them in the ecosystem of the e t F. I 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.160 think a practical perspective to fine. I don't think you're 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:07.160 gonna each exchange is slightly different. They'll have slightly different 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.560 ways of doing things. I don't think there's anything that's 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:15.480 that materially problematically different, I think. But to go back, 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.640 I think the point, the bigger point is even if 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:21.480 there's nothing that needs to be changed, it would be 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.560 great if there was a bar that everybody could just meet. 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.880 And you've met the bar, and I get this almost 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.920 like a chicken in the egg situation. The U S E. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.120 T F and US exchange volume, Like, we are the 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.439 liquidity capital of the world, and we have the best 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.800 market makers in the world. Um, there's so much capital 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.120 going in here. And if these market makers that are 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.240 in the US and a U S E. T F 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.840 comes to market, I almost feel like allowing that to 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.160 happen would clean up anything that's going on. I mean, 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:50.079 these market makers are not going to be besting around 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.680 or getting pushed around. Uh So it's it's a little 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:54.840 bit like I said, it's a little bit of a 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.000 chick in the egg situation. If you bring these people 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:58.440 in here, it's going to clean up the Market's going 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:00.400 to tighten up the market, you would say. Where I 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:01.880 was saying that a couple of years ago. Now the 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.480 market is a completely different world. It's way more mature 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:09.160 than it was even in so we we actually just 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:14.000 in some analysis on this the market is pretty tight cocontested. 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.120 Like you actually look at statistically what's happening across a 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.480 variety of different crypto markets, they all moved together. It's 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.760 really tightly grouped. There's nothing odd happening in that. And 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.120 I think part of the thing that has changed in 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.000 the past several years in the crypto markets is a 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:32.520 lot of those market makers that you're talking about are 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.800 playing in this pool, either directly as corporates, but you 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.920 also have a lot of ex traders that came from 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.320 those shops who have entered with the crypto market, partially 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.560 because there was money to be made in that arbitrree trade. 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:47.640 And so you now have both quite literally those firms 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:51.520 as well as the people who used to run that 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.599 trading and have that experience entering the space, and you 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.240 ended up with a much tighter market. I think to 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.040 some degree, we're there, right. You have these big players 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.480 playing in the pool, and it's helped tremendously in terms 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.520 of the maturity of market. Like I run across it 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.800 a lot, like people I knew in previous lives who 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.200 are not hopping up in crypto, I think probably true 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:22.680 for all of us. Is not that common anymore. The 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.960 other big story that's happening this week is the Colonial 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:32.640 pipeline ransomware hack. And again I totally understand that the 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:36.679 vast majority of people who own bitcoin aren't um criminals. 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.559 And yet you know, here's the downside of of bitcoin, 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.800 which is that it can still be used and it's anonymous, 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:48.280 or it can be used anonymously, and there's this underworld 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:54.240 that will attract regulatory ire when it's used as as 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.360 ransom And so is there how big of a fear 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:01.440 do you have about regulatories? Got Tory bodies in America 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:05.440 actually just never wanting to make let this thing go 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:09.040 mainstream as long as it's anonymous. But you know, maybe 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.160 you take away the anonymity and it might change things. 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:15.520 I think anonymity and crypto is sort of a red herring. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.720 Nothing about crypto is that anonymous unless you're trading privacy 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:20.880 points that there are coins that are designed to do that, 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.880 and that's a different market. But you're talking about bitcoin 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.520 and whether or not bitcoin is anonymous. You can run 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:34.080 analytics on chain to figure out where every piece of 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.560 crypto that you're receiving in a transaction from what it 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.120 was mine through today you're never gonna be able to 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.240 do that with the US dollar. I think part of 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.320 it is just a lack of understanding of how we 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.840 could use that structure. And I think if to go 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.720 back to the question of regulation, I think if you 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.400 have infrastructure around that, you're not going to actually have 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:58.320 a real real issue there because being pseudonymous persons being 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:03.280 actually anonymous or right different, and bitcoin especially is pseudonyms, right, 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.120 you get a string that is used. But ultimately, if 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.600 you're going to bring those assets into a like any 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.520 kind of sat on ramp, and you're trying to get 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.960 that out of this system and into something else, you're 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.240 inevitably going to have to clear some form of ky 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.280 C a m L, and they're going to run what 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.160 amounts to a background check on your specific piece of 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.480 curtough from the day it was born until the day 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.640 it's hitting that account. And you can't really do that 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.200 in the same way with the U S doll. So 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:31.800 we talked about everyone has their over unders. The Van 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:33.680 Neck filing, as I mentioned, is the first one, and 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.400 we have the The deadline will be November tenth about 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.120 where the SEC either has to fully approve or fully 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.320 deny that filing UM. I mentioned there's three others that 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.800 are going through that process right now. There's like twelve 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.600 different issuers that are in this in this uh in 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.680 this race to potentially launch a bitcoin etf UM. So 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:53.880 what what if you had to pick a date. I'm 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:55.960 sure you talk to these people. I'm sure they've reached 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.160 out to you for questions about different things. UM what 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:00.840 what over under would you put it out? Do you 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.000 think we're gonna see one? Or do you think we're 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.920 gonna see one? I agree with the range broadly. I 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.240 think I'm slightly to the latter end of that. I 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:15.280 think late late Q four is probably more realistic than 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.920 early Q four, so I don't sometimes November December is 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:24.880 probably where I would put it, very very late. I 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:29.480 do think a lot has changed, including Canada's. Canada is 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.120 a lot close for US than Europe, and I think 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:35.000 that physicality actually matters. They have a history of launching 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.440 e t f s ahead of US in groundbreaking asset 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:40.960 classes and they've been doing fine. I mean, they're their 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.360 premiums are tight, They've seen a lot of action both 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.000 up and down UM, and now they've got into ether. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.200 There's a multiple ethere e t f S. I also 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:56.040 think you now have more context around trading behavior in 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:01.480 much more robust markets around like you, corporate actions in 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.800 crypto like things like forks are ultimately just corporate actions, right. 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:06.880 There's not a material different between that and the stock 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.600 split or that and any kind of spin off. The 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:11.879 pretty similar to other stuff that we have that exists 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.560 in normal and financial infrastructure. I also think you've finally 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.760 seen those happening in a more robust trading environment. One 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.000 of the big questions is within like trading behavior around 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:22.240 these things network stability. I think a lot of those 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.840 questions have been answered as well. So purely like technical stuff, 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.240 we've actually seen a much more robust cycle. Like we've 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.360 gone through forks in our products, We've gone through all 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.080 sorts of different things, and it's never cause an issue. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.879 And you can actually watch the impact of those actions 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:42.119 across networks and you're not seeing, you know, substantial issues 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.679 with network performance. I think that's also quite hopeful. So 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:49.560 it's a question that comes up a lot. So um 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.399 it was it might have been February of March. I 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:53.560 was just tooling around on E t F GO, which 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.879 is like I just I call it the leaderboard, and 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.679 I sworked by flows, I sworked by performance, and I 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.479 did your to date return and did everything. A lot 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.879 of times i'll screen out other countries or leverage, but 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.000 I did the whole Enchilada. This is nine thousand and 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.480 ninety two E t f S. Number one, by far 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.840 in your date return is one shares Finance b n 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.720 B E t P. Number two by far is twenty 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.960 one shares Ripple x r P E t P. And 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.280 then you've got number five, You've got number seven, you've 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:29.000 got number ten. You're basically like you're all over the leaderboard. 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:32.280 And this is out of nine thousand E t f S. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:34.880 So I guess let's just start with your product line 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.800 and starting I think people get bitcoin and ethereum at 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.040 this point. You know what is binance? How did that 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:46.640 launch come about? B and B is a coin native 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:51.440 to the finance system, and great long winded way of 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.760 saying it basically is sort of like a rewards park 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.840 inside of one of the largest currency So finance is 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:03.640 like the eight underpound guerrilla in terms of trading volumes. 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.920 They are massive global. If you trade crypto, chances are 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.479 you either touch you touch finance and some They are 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.399 kind of everywhere and offer massive range of crypto services. 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.040 And one of the things that happened is basically they 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:20.560 came out with this token that would allow you to 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.199 do a number of things within their ecosystem, and they 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.040 may also built a centralized applications on top of that, 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.240 and it lets you do a lot of things within 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.080 the finance network UM that are quite unique. On the 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:37.320 back of the coin based IPO, there was a lot 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:39.240 of excitement around the exchange business and I think for 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.359 the first time people having a real understanding of what 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.240 the crypto exchange business actually looks like from a monetary 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:52.000 perspective UM and Finance is substantially larger UM, and so 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:58.680 you ended up with a a structure where this specific token, 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:04.320 even though it is absolutely not Finance ectually, it does 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:09.200 represent a participation in their ecosystem, and that was really exciting, 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:15.480 and it was substantially undervalued apparently, and so you had 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:19.320 a really fascinating just jumped here between these two markets 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:21.680 and people got very excited about it. If you couple 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:23.399 that with the fact that Finance has rolled out in 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.560 the past several months a couple of really interesting new 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:32.119 projects that expand its reach into things like defied um 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:36.159 it's been doing incredibly well. Uh. That product came about 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:40.600 because we have a pretty unique, I think, approach to 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.440 crypto products, which is that we really wanted to make 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:50.800 sure that people have real access two interesting underlying assets 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.920 we launched. We have a the largest products we in 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:55.959 the world for these types of products and do it 0:20:56.040 --> 0:21:03.800 because ultimately we wanted to bring them into mainstream and 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.920 give people access to them in an easy way. Because 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.480 while I think for people in crypto, binance is pretty 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:13.280 common infrastructure, for people who maybe aren't in crypto, signing 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.160 up the binance maybe quite a reach, and we wanted 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.720 to find a way to bridge that and allow people to, 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.359 you know, still get access to the sector. UM. I 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:27.160 guess the binance tokens like one simple example to lay 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.360 it out for somebody who's not familiar, you, everyone has 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.280 to pay fees when you're trading on an exchange, right, 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:35.600 there's exchange fees. That's how coin base makes all the money. 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.000 If you use the binance token to pay your fees, 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.159 the dollar amount or the actual amount you're paying is 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.040 a little less. It's like an incentive to use the 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:43.679 binance coin. That's how it's like one of the things 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.959 that started out as UM. So just throw that in there, 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.000 and then I guess my next question is you guys, 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:50.639