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Speaker 1: Picture this. It's nineteen eighty three and you're driving in

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Speaker 1: your car when you hear this young guy come on

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Speaker 1: the radio. He's maybe twenty three years old. That thing

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Speaker 1: you hate about yourself, he can fix it.

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Speaker 2: I don't care what your problem is. I don't care

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Speaker 2: if you've had phobias for years, come see me. I'll

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Speaker 2: handle it in one hour. I am the one stop therapist.

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Speaker 1: Right people start calling in with questions like could he

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Speaker 1: care anxiety, binge, drinking, procrastination. The answer is always yes,

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Speaker 1: of course absolutely. And then a skeptic comes on the

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Speaker 1: air and he.

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Speaker 2: Starts attacking me, saying, people like you are charlatan, you're

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Speaker 2: a liar. People like you should not be loud on

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Speaker 2: the radio. You can't wipe out a phobia in that

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Speaker 2: time period. And I said, well, you must be a signist.

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Speaker 2: Then he said, of course, I'm a scientist. I said, well,

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Speaker 2: a scientist would never assume anything. And I said, as

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Speaker 2: a scientist, you can come up with a hypothesis you want.

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Speaker 2: If you're truly a scientist, isn't a true You have

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Speaker 2: to test your hypothesis. And this is what launched my career.

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Speaker 1: He throws down a gauntlet he's holding an event the

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Speaker 1: next night at a holiday inn.

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Speaker 2: So I suggest the best way you prove your hypothesis

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Speaker 2: is bring me one of your patients, bringing somebody you've

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Speaker 2: never been able to change. I said, I'm sure you've

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Speaker 2: got plenty of those.

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Speaker 1: They go back and forth, but eventually the doctor admits

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Speaker 1: he does have this one patient, a woman with a

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Speaker 1: snake phobia.

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Speaker 2: And I said, how long have you treated her? And

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Speaker 2: he said seven years? And I said, well, bring her down.

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Speaker 2: That should take me ten or fifteen minutes. And the

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Speaker 2: guy just lost it.

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Speaker 3: What you know?

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Speaker 2: And the radio guy says, we'll see you tomorrow night

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Speaker 2: at the holiday inn.

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Speaker 1: It's on. The young miracle worker was expecting thirty to

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Speaker 1: forty people at the free event. Five hundred show up.

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Speaker 1: There aren't enough chairs. He gets up on stage and

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Speaker 1: introduces himself.

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Speaker 2: So, Hi, I'm Tony Robbins. I'm here today and to

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Speaker 2: share with you how you can have you know, more

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Speaker 2: change and a more rapid pace than you probably ever

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Speaker 2: thought possible. Changes you thought would take years or months

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Speaker 2: could be done in minutes or hours. And right as

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Speaker 2: I finish over, literally the side door bursts open.

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Speaker 1: It's like high noon in an old western in walks.

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Speaker 1: The psychiatrist in his patient, Tony brings her up on

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Speaker 1: stage and I.

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Speaker 2: Walked behind her to the back, and there's a table there,

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Speaker 2: and I had a little knapsack and I reached in

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Speaker 2: the knapsack and I'm walking behind her. I reached out

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Speaker 2: and I paused this little gardener snake and I put

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Speaker 2: the snake in front of her, and of course she

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Speaker 2: jumped back at first, but I just held it there

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Speaker 2: and then her whole nervous system just calmed straight down.

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Speaker 2: Everyone could see it. And I said, how do you

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Speaker 2: feel about snakes? And she said they're not very attractive.

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Speaker 2: I said, okay, and I said would you be willing

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Speaker 2: to hold it? And she stayed a little more intensity.

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Speaker 2: It's not very attractive, you know, lean back, but didn't shake,

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Speaker 2: didn't spit, none of those overreactions. And I said, think

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Speaker 2: about what it feel like. They just told that sname

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Speaker 2: can conquer that fear, and the audience is going hold it,

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Speaker 2: hold it, hold you know Sega movie.

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Speaker 1: The woman reaches out and grabs a snake in front

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Speaker 1: of everyone.

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Speaker 2: This is part of why my career grew, because I

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Speaker 2: did crazy.

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Speaker 1: Things that day twenty three year old Tony Robbins cured

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Speaker 1: a phobia and launched a self help empire.

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Speaker 2: What if your worst day was actually your best day?

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Speaker 2: What is the most painful day in your life could

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Speaker 2: be converted to your best day? They can't. This is

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Speaker 2: a new beginning for your life. This is taking your

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Speaker 2: standard to a new level. This is embodying it at

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Speaker 2: a whole new level. It's all happening for us, my friends,

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Speaker 2: not to us. This is you unleash could deep breath

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Speaker 2: in and breathed out.

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Speaker 4: Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so

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Speaker 4: that I can speak primately on your unconscious mind.

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Speaker 1: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts, This is Mind Games Episode four.

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Speaker 1: I'm Zoe Lascos and I'm Alice Hines.

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Speaker 2: You don't know how you did it. You did you.

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Speaker 4: You're going to a little time to Starsian stake and

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Speaker 4: you're out of it.

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Speaker 5: Last episode, we looked at how the co founders of NLP,

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Speaker 5: Richard Bandler and John Grinder, discovered hypnosis and used the

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Speaker 5: techniques they learned to market NLP as a persuasion technology.

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Speaker 1: What began as a set of therapeutic techniques became a

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Speaker 1: series of sales hacks, and from there NLP became the

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Speaker 1: s sense of a new self help industrial complex.

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Speaker 5: Bandler and Grinder successfully smuggled psychiatric techniques out of the

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Speaker 5: therapist's office and into the business world. But it was

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Speaker 5: Tony Robbins who made these self help hacks inescapable. He

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Speaker 5: and other gurus sold self help to Corporate America, and

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Speaker 5: NLP got into the water stream big time. Even if

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Speaker 5: you've never heard of NLP, you've probably heard of Tony Robbins,

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Speaker 5: maybe from one of his many infomercials, like this one

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Speaker 5: from nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 6: In the last year, over fifty million people met a

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Speaker 6: remarkable man named Anthony Robbins. Since then, his Personal Power

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Speaker 6: audio program has helped hundreds of thousands of people master

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Speaker 6: their finances, improve the quality of their relationships, and achieve

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Speaker 6: peak physical performance.

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Speaker 1: Today, at sixty five, Tony Robbins is the world's most

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Speaker 1: famous coach. He's worked with corporations like AT and T,

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Speaker 1: Procter and Gamble, Xerox, American Express, IBM, and DOW. Celebrities

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Speaker 1: like Andre Agassi, Serena Williams, Hugh Jackman, Pitbull, Princess Diana.

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Speaker 1: They have all been clients. Bill Pinon called you the

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Speaker 1: night before nineteen ninety yeah and said, Tony, they may

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Speaker 1: be impeaching me in the morning.

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Speaker 2: What should I do?

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Speaker 7: What an extraordinary position of responsibility?

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Speaker 8: You have?

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Speaker 2: Not the only person he called.

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Speaker 1: Tony brought NLP to a new league of elite customers,

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Speaker 1: but his greatest success was building an audience of millions

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Speaker 1: of ordinary people with a message of inner power and resilience.

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Speaker 2: Anybody could be in a good state when things are

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Speaker 2: going your way, but if you can stay at a

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Speaker 2: beautiful state when things don't go your way, then you're

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Speaker 2: going to have a beautiful wife.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe it's the millions of dollars he's made in

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Speaker 1: the process. He's not shy about his success.

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Speaker 2: I'm Tony Robbins. You know, I'm a business specialist and

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Speaker 2: he performance coach. He has a variety of techniques and tools.

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Speaker 2: One hundred and fourteen companies across about twelve different industries.

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Speaker 2: We do today about nine billion dollars in business.

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Speaker 1: I reached Tony over Zoom at his home in Palm Beach.

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Speaker 1: He Studi's ambivalent about the modern world of gurus, frauds

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Speaker 1: and get rich quick schemes. He helped create and so

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Speaker 1: I feel like I.

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Speaker 2: Helped the father an industry that, quite frankly, is a monster.

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Speaker 2: And then I call it a monster because there's no

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Speaker 2: quality control. Right. It's like, you know, somebody goes some class,

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Speaker 2: somebody gives some certification, who made it up, and then

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Speaker 2: they go out and coach people and charge people. I

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Speaker 2: think it's great that it's there, but it's like, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: like most industries, there's a lot. You know, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of great people, there's a few really great people,

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot of terrible people out there. And

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Speaker 2: so when I hear a life coach, I squirm, even

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Speaker 2: though you know I started with this.

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Speaker 1: Interviewing Tony Robbins can feel like talking to a YouTube

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Speaker 1: video playing at double speed.

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Speaker 2: My nature is unpassionate. I talk very rapidly, I talk aloud,

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Speaker 2: I project to an audience, So I'm wired that way. Well.

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Speaker 2: Our culture tends to to give more credibility to someone

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Speaker 2: who speaks more like President Obama for example, and someone

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Speaker 2: talking to this particular tempo or talking.

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Speaker 1: To a runaway philosophy machine.

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Speaker 2: I know it sounds corny, but the ultimate technique is

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Speaker 2: love and caring for that client. I have a simple philosophy.

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Speaker 2: I know every person I meet, Zoe, you included, and

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Speaker 2: I mean it sincerely. Every person I meet, I know

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Speaker 2: is going to be superior to me in at least one.

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Speaker 1: Or more areas or a dictionary.

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Speaker 2: And if you don't give up, and you're relentless, which

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Speaker 2: I am, I'm not persistent persistent is that steady consistency.

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Speaker 2: I am relentless, all in until we get the outcome.

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Speaker 1: But Tony is also disarmingly nice. He was generous with

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Speaker 1: his time and happy to talk about his NLP roots.

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Speaker 2: I got involved in NLP when I was very young,

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Speaker 2: when I was about, gosh, twenty three years old. I

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Speaker 2: was kind of obsessed at a very early age of

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Speaker 2: anything that can make a difference in people's lives.

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Speaker 1: Tony grew up on the wrong side of the trucks,

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Speaker 1: as he's fond of saying, whole my life was chaotic.

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Speaker 1: His mother was addicted to alcohol and prescription pills, and

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Speaker 1: he left home at seventeen.

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Speaker 2: I was like one of the most loving human beings

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Speaker 2: you can imagine, but when you mix those drugs, you

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Speaker 2: get a different personality. So I became a practical psychologist

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Speaker 2: out of how to figure out how to manage your

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Speaker 2: moods and emotion quite frankly, at very early on in

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Speaker 2: my life was a requirement. But that led to me

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Speaker 2: also just wanting to see how to help people get

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Speaker 2: out of pain. I think primarily because I experienced so

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Speaker 2: much at myself.

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Speaker 1: Tony discovered the world of development gurus as a teenage

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Speaker 1: door to door salesman.

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Speaker 5: This was the late nineteen seventies and motivational speaking was

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Speaker 5: an increasingly crowded field. There was Werner Erhard and his

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Speaker 5: est trainings.

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Speaker 4: Rather than doing more in the same box, or even

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Speaker 4: doing better in the same box, or even doing something

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Speaker 4: different in the same box, it's about creating new boxes.

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Speaker 5: There was Norman Vincent Peel with his Church of Positive Thinking.

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Speaker 9: Don't tell me that taje Name's thinking doesn't work wonders.

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Speaker 5: And there were eat or Be Eaten guys like Jim Rohn.

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Speaker 10: Every single day you wake up with a choice. You

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Speaker 10: can choose to be weak, to give in to your excuses,

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Speaker 10: to let your fears control you, or you can choose

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Speaker 10: to be strong.

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Speaker 5: A lot of these gurus styled themselves after evangelical preachers,

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Speaker 5: and many had a background in direct sales. They used

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Speaker 5: a lot of the same techniques, aphorisms, visualizations, and long,

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Speaker 5: vague stories of miraculous transformations that were impossible to fact check.

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Speaker 5: Forget science. Anecdotal evidence spoke for itself.

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Speaker 1: There's a reason these gurus suddenly appeared in the late

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and early eighties. They were capitalizing on a

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Speaker 1: period of profound economic uncertainty in the US. Inflation sword

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Speaker 1: and wages stagnated, companies were downsizing, and jobs were increasingly

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Speaker 1: outsourced overseas. Then under Reagan, there were sweeping cuts to

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Speaker 1: social welfare programs like food stamps, education, and medicaid. All

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Speaker 1: of this meant there was much fiercer competition in the

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Speaker 1: workforce as people groom themselves to get ahead. A new

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Speaker 1: social Darwinism set.

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Speaker 5: In, and no one bottled and sold this survival of

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Speaker 5: the fittest mentality better than motivational speaker Jim Ron. Jim

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Speaker 5: challenged his students to take charge of their lives, kill

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Speaker 5: the weak parts of themselves, and banish limiting beliefs.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you something.

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Speaker 10: That weak version of yourself, the one that's always complaining,

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Speaker 10: always procrastinating, always settling for less, that version needs to go.

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Speaker 10: It's time to kill it off once and for all.

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Speaker 1: It was there at a Jim Rohan's seminar that Tony

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Speaker 1: found his calling. He began working as Roan's assistant and

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Speaker 1: then as a salesman, flacking roan seminars to businesses around LA.

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Speaker 1: By the time he was nighe he was head of

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Speaker 1: his own sales office. Tony got his drive to banish

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Speaker 1: weakness from Ron by his techniques. The skills that made

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Speaker 1: him a star those he got from NLP. Let's go

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Speaker 1: back to when you first learned about NLP. Can you

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Speaker 1: give me a fuller picture of what was going on

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Speaker 1: in your life, because, as you say, you were no

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Speaker 1: stranger to motivation programs, you'd worked with Jim Rohn. What

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Speaker 1: stood out to you about NLP versus other methods?

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Speaker 2: Well, Jim ron was not my motivational speaker, per se.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's the term people over you is. I

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Speaker 2: hate the term because it's to me, it's like a

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Speaker 2: warm bath. I mean, obviously he needs some motivation, but

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Speaker 2: it's not enough. You have to be a strategist, which

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Speaker 2: is what I am. He was more of a business philosopher.

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Speaker 2: So I look at life as you need both philosophy

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Speaker 2: and strategy. If you have strategy, that's how to, and

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Speaker 2: the better strategy you'll get you the result faster. That's

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Speaker 2: what NLP really was.

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Speaker 1: He was about twenty three when he went to an

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Speaker 1: NLP training. John Grinder was running near the Los Angeles Airport.

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Speaker 1: Tony stuck out from the crowd.

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Speaker 2: At the time. You really had to be a therapist

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Speaker 2: to go do the training in those days. And I

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Speaker 2: basically went to John and said, look, you know, all

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Speaker 2: these therapists, they've been trained to take forever to make change.

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Speaker 2: And it really annoyed me to see somebody, you know,

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Speaker 2: working with somebody for seven years on a problem that

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Speaker 2: I knew could be done in a matter of weeks

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Speaker 2: or months, and once I met Grinder, I knew could

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Speaker 2: be matter of sometimes hours or minutes. And so I

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Speaker 2: kind of talked my way into this six month training

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Speaker 2: class and I was obsessed.

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Speaker 1: First, Tony tried NLP techniques out on himself.

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Speaker 2: I used to bite my fingernails down to the quick

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Speaker 2: and they'd even bleed, and sometimes, you know, I put

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Speaker 2: something on there so if I'd bid, it would be bitter.

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Speaker 2: Nothing seemed to stop it, and I did the simple

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Speaker 2: swish pattern that I picked up from one of the books.

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Speaker 2: You know, I never bit my fingernails ever again. So

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Speaker 2: I was like, this is phenomenal, and I was I

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Speaker 2: was on fire at that stage to want to master

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Speaker 2: every aspect of it.

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Speaker 1: Nail biting down. He craved something more ambitious.

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Speaker 2: I started really thinking about you know, MLP is a

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Speaker 2: great set of techniques, and I thought, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to just learn a bunch of techniques like a dog.

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Speaker 2: Anybody can do that. I'd certainly want to use those too,

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Speaker 2: but I'd like to learn deeper about what makes the

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Speaker 2: human psyche work. I'd like to understand more about how

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Speaker 2: to create global change.

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Speaker 1: John Grinder gave him an assignment.

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Speaker 2: I want you to come up with something else that's

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Speaker 2: its seemingly impossible, and I want you to go model

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Speaker 2: it and come back and show me you're done.

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Speaker 1: And that's when Tony.

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Speaker 2: Decided, tonight we have a firewalk to walk on fire,

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Speaker 2: getting yourself when you're scared, to snap out of it

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Speaker 2: and storm through. That's a perfect metaphor for the fire

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Speaker 2: of your life. Now let me show you how.

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Speaker 9: To walk on fire like the boot say yeah, Say yeah.

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Speaker 1: Firewalks are Tony's signature. They're often the big adrenaline soak

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Speaker 1: culminations of his multi day seminars, which cost a few

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars and generate millions annually. After long days of

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Speaker 1: group therapy, everyone charges across the cold, cheering each other on.

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Speaker 2: I certainly know the power of energy. Without energy, nothing changes.

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Speaker 2: Low energy, you're not going to change. So I use

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Speaker 2: high energy and then I use the tools. That's one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons I think I did better than most people.

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Speaker 2: I change their physiology, which to me was one of

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Speaker 2: the fundamental tools that I learned from John Grindery.

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Speaker 1: In the Tony verse, physiology is key to changing someone's

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Speaker 1: stated and by extension, their lives. Tony's not a sit down,

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Speaker 1: talk out your problems sort of therapist. He gets people

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Speaker 1: to break boards, punch the air, hug strangers, and dance

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Speaker 1: around in congo lines. There's also a lot of yelling.

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Speaker 5: Firewalking is funny to me because, like a lot of

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Speaker 5: magic tricks, it seems physically impossible but is actually not

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Speaker 5: at all.

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Speaker 11: Right.

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Speaker 1: The coals are very hot, but as long as you

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Speaker 1: keep moving quickly, you won't get badly burned.

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Speaker 5: The whole point is just to hype you up.

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Speaker 1: If you can walk on fire, Alice, what can't you

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Speaker 1: do in your life?

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Speaker 2: But the point was to get yourself to take that step,

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Speaker 2: because it's just like if you take that first step,

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Speaker 2: especially in firewalking, you're gonna take the second, third, or

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Speaker 2: the fifth steps.

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Speaker 5: Honestly, it seems to be basically getting people in an

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Speaker 5: emotional state where they'll believe anything.

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Speaker 1: Including that change is possible. And I guess that's the

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Speaker 1: placebo effect, right, which is one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: NLP techniques do sometimes work because people believe they will.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's not such a bad place to start working

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Speaker 1: on something you're resistant to and think you could never

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Speaker 1: ever ever get over.

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Speaker 2: Metaphors were very helpful. The metaphor opens the door. Then

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Speaker 2: you've got to really develop the skills, and you got

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Speaker 2: to shift the beliefs in people. Beliefs can create and

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Speaker 2: beliefs destroy. And when you learn not just NLP, but

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Speaker 2: you learn how he people structure what they value and

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Speaker 2: what they believe, and you show them how to change

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Speaker 2: it for themselves, not tell them what to believe, not

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Speaker 2: tell them what to do. That's a cult. I have

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Speaker 2: people ask them what do they need? And then show

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Speaker 2: them how to basically shape themselves.

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Speaker 5: I was actually feeling inspired by Tony Robbins, so I

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Speaker 5: tried some of this recently.

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Speaker 1: And who is your willing guinea pig, Alice?

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Speaker 5: Okay, I know you already know this. Okay, So it's

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Speaker 5: Zoe's mom Lynn. She wanted to figure out how to

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Speaker 5: get over this really specific hang up. That's after the break.

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Speaker 5: When was the last time you were at Governor's Island?

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Speaker 12: Never?

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Speaker 10: You've never been?

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Speaker 5: No? Oh cool, I'm with Zoe's mom Lynn. We're heading

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Speaker 5: out to Governor's Island in New York City to find

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Speaker 5: a calm place to practice bike riding. I also rented

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Speaker 5: us bikes that are like upright bikes want so we

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Speaker 5: don't have to do city bikes.

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Speaker 11: Oh, I'm so happy because Lynn.

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Speaker 1: Is in her early seventies.

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Speaker 5: Before we met up for our bike ride, I visited

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Speaker 5: her at her home to do a couple of MLP

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Speaker 5: visualizingtion exercises.

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Speaker 13: The bike riding inventiones are kind of a compositive flying

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Speaker 13: through Times Square.

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Speaker 5: In her younger years, she was a fearless bike rider.

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Speaker 13: Failing invincible with my favorite pair of green and high

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Speaker 13: heels in the basket and just the exhilaration and the

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Speaker 13: freedom I felt.

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Speaker 5: But these days she's way less confident on two wheels.

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Speaker 5: Part of her problem is physical scoliosis changed her center

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Speaker 5: of gravity, so it's.

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Speaker 8: Like I've lost my power.

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Speaker 11: I'm not the one in control, right.

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Speaker 5: You feel like you're kind of I'm the little kid,

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Speaker 5: you know, Yes, And part of it is mental. She

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Speaker 5: gets extremely anxious when making turns or in traffic, and

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Speaker 5: she shakes herself out and she hates feeling this way.

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Speaker 8: I hadn't figured out the physical element in it, so

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Speaker 8: I thought, my god, this is what getting old is.

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Speaker 8: Your world strengths, fear replaces calm, and you just sort

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Speaker 8: of dwindle down. You've kind of fade off.

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Speaker 1: Hell No, Hell now is not what I want.

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Speaker 5: You are going to crush it. Today when I had

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Speaker 5: Lynn remember a situation where she felt confident on a bike,

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Speaker 5: she mentioned riding to a lighthouse on Fire Island. So

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Speaker 5: I gave her an NLP visualization technique. We're going to

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Speaker 5: try to trigger that feeling of wobbliness and instability and apprehension.

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Speaker 11: Was I think the word and out of control?

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Speaker 5: So right, So we're going to try to trigger that

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Speaker 5: without it actually happening.

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Speaker 8: I'm getting tensolrad.

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Speaker 1: There we go.

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Speaker 5: So your mind's doing it for you, and right now

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Speaker 5: practice it. Can you see the lighthouse? Tricking your brain

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Speaker 5: to switch from a state of anxiety to a state

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Speaker 5: of confidence is an NLP technique. They call it Swish swish.

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Speaker 5: It's what Tony used on the woman with the snakephobia.

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Speaker 5: At the heart of it is the idea that you

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Speaker 5: can change your emotional reactions by manipulating your memories, specifically

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Speaker 5: the sensory details associated with a memory.

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Speaker 12: Well, colors are part of the memory. Is there a

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Speaker 12: specific palette? How did you feel?

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Speaker 13: Accelerated? Powerful compliment?

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Speaker 5: Manipulating a memory, playing with the color, speed, music, or volume.

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Speaker 5: Even playing the memory backwards helps you gain more emotional control.

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Speaker 5: You can dial back the vividness of a negative memory

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Speaker 5: or train yourself to replace it with a positive one.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 14: Imagine yourself on that boardwalk in Santa Monica, that feeling

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Speaker 14: of wobbliness and apprehension.

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Speaker 3: Can you feel it?

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Speaker 13: Who got ya?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 14: Now I want you to make it small. Switch the

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Speaker 14: two images, okay, and make the image of the Whitehouse big,

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Speaker 14: full color, purposeful, confident.

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Speaker 2: Woosh, do this, see this. Whoosh, do this, see this,

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Speaker 2: do this, see this, do this, see this, do this,

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Speaker 2: see this, do this, until when you see the old

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Speaker 2: thing of like wanting to bite your fingernails, it triggers

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Speaker 2: in your mind the wish the new thing, which is, no,

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Speaker 2: I don't need to do that. This is who I

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Speaker 2: really am.

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Speaker 5: As Tony Robbins suggests here in his VHS tape, unleashing

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Speaker 5: the power within, this becomes automatic. The idea is eventually

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Speaker 5: you'll react that way in real time too. On Governor's Island,

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Speaker 5: I gave Lynn a guided meditation. I asked her to

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Speaker 5: think of the bicycle as her friend, and then another

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Speaker 5: one where I had her envision herself on a bike,

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Speaker 5: confidently moving towards her destination, and.

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Speaker 14: You're going to come out in three two one, open

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Speaker 14: your eyes.

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Speaker 11: Ah.

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Speaker 15: That was very interesting. Several things happened when I was

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Speaker 15: on the bike. What gave me the most confidence was

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Speaker 15: imagining I used to take Zoe to school on my bike,

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Speaker 15: and with her on there, I had to get her

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Speaker 15: safely to school. So yeah, there's traffic that stuff.

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Speaker 1: But there was Zee.

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Speaker 13: I dropped her off, and after I did that, I

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Speaker 13: could head for the lighthouse.

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Speaker 14: That's great when it really worked.

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Speaker 1: That one really worked, right.

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Speaker 5: Okay, And with that we pushed off.

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Speaker 1: That was pretty good, right, people.

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Speaker 16: Onside car on the other tracker instrument of doom.

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Speaker 1: I know, right, like ooh, I was going to stop, that.

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Speaker 8: Is what I was thinking, but then he it was

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Speaker 8: just enough.

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Speaker 2: Real.

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Speaker 1: I'm really curious why this worked, not only because she's

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Speaker 1: my mother, but because I've tried all sorts of stuff

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Speaker 1: to get her back on a bike.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, like getting her drunk tipsy.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I can't believe she told you this. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I figured a drink would help take the edge off.

441
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 1: So we may or may not have gotten a cocktail

442
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: at this bar near my house and biked around my neighborhood.

443
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 16: Yeah.

444
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 5: When she told me about that, I think she said

445
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 5: she didn't like the pressure.

446
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: Okay, fair, But I have seen her ride perfectly well

447
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: for miles at a time quite recently, and seen her

448
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: just fixate on the one little thing that goes wrong.

449
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: So I do think this whole problem is mostly in

450
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: her head. Okay.

451
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 5: So at the end of our day on Governor's Island,

452
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 5: she was still a bit wobbly and nervous, but she

453
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 5: stayed on the bike, so I was happy about that.

454
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: That's great, I'm really happy to hear that. But how

455
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: much of it do you think was the NLP?

456
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 5: That is what I'm on the fence about. Practicing riding

457
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 5: a bike in general maybe would have helped just as much.

458
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 5: So I'm not sure how much the guided imagery played

459
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 5: a role. There's a technique in clinical psychology called exposure

460
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 5: therapy which is honestly kind of identical to Tony's phobia cure.

461
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 2: And you look at his snake and when his tongue

462
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: click is out at you, you know he's saying, I

463
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: just I'm a little bit scared. Please support me. And

464
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: how's that feel? As he starts wrapping around you. Not bad.

465
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 5: Here's Tony doing the snake phobia cure that launched his

466
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 5: career in that same VHS tape.

467
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 2: And how would you make it feel good? If you

468
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: can make it feel good? Now, what would you say

469
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: to yourself or what would you picture?

470
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 12: I'd sing to the snake?

471
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: What would you sing to it?

472
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 11: I'd sing happy days are here again?

473
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: Okay, so all the snag I kin sing to his face,

474
00:24:53,440 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 2: ohead b and enjoy it.

475
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 5: Licensed therapists also give their clients visualization techniques like this.

476
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 5: NLP may have cribbed it from them. Basically, if you

477
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 5: give a woman with a fear of snakes a snake,

478
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 5: or even have her think of snakes, all in a

479
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 5: safe situation where nothing bad happens, it's called exposure therapy.

480
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: And Tony is also doing these cures on stage where

481
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: there's an audience and all this pressure to make some crazy,

482
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: miraculous breakthrough in front of the audience.

483
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: You're gonna have lasting change. You gotta understand the whole

484
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 2: human being. And to do that is you know, it's

485
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 2: not quick sometimes, right, you know. Unfortunately today a lot

486
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: of psychiatry and psychology is using techniques from one hundred

487
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: years ago. You when you use a phone from twenty

488
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: years ago, think you're an idiot. But they're still doing

489
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: that because it's what they've been trained to do, and

490
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,360
Speaker 2: they're not training results. And that's the biggest difference. I say,

491
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: my obsession is can't produce the result consistently for people,

492
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: and what good is it?

493
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: In a few months since she went to Governor's Island

494
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: with my Mam Malice, did these sparkly new techniques stick?

495
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: I've been deliberately not asking her about this whole experiment.

496
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, so she's been practicing on her own, and I

497
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 5: recently called her up to check on her progress.

498
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 16: The thing I do like about this approach is it

499
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 16: makes you feel that it's possible that you, your brain,

500
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 16: which has.

501
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 11: Been driving yourself crazy, can be kind of came down

502
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 11: and used. And that's a huge inspiration for somebody who

503
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 11: thinks they can't do it.

504
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 5: Lin's been improving, for sure, but it's been slow.

505
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 11: Doom catastrophe.

506
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 7: I can't do this freak out physical panic, And of

507
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 7: course then I do it, and I'm looking at my body,

508
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 7: which is working fine, it's making the turn, and then

509
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 7: there's my brain.

510
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 5: From Lin's perspective, it's not as easy as advertised. She's

511
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 5: frustrated about how these tactics are at times marketed as

512
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 5: simple instant fixes.

513
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 16: Did take a pork, said person who is struggling to

514
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 16: get over something.

515
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 11: This is easy. You just close your eyes and you

516
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 11: spend one second, no more than one second.

517
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 16: On bad image, and then you replace it with a

518
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,959
Speaker 16: good image, but just for one second. So anyway, let

519
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 16: me just say that that is not true. So you

520
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 16: end up feeling bad and you end up feeling that

521
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 16: it's your fault.

522
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: This is the problem with self help in general. Right,

523
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: it promises the world and that's empowering, but when it

524
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: doesn't work, people end up blaming themselves. I ask Tony

525
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: about the miracle cure claims surrounding NLP, what are the

526
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: limits of NLP?

527
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: Well, I don't. I don't think you should limit to NLP.

528
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 2: I think you should think of it as neuroscience. You

529
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 2: should think of it as psychology. You should think of

530
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: it as you know Eastern practices, like if you limit

531
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: yourself the one set of techniques, Yes, there's limits, you'll

532
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 2: always bump into limits. I think the limits are our

533
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: own belief systems. In most cases, are there limits, like

534
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: you know, physical limits of how much heat you can

535
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: deal with, like firewalking. Of course there are, right, but

536
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: the limits we think they are are rarely the real limits,

537
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: and so I think it's really about extending beyond that.

538
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: Well, I ask in part about limits because people have

539
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: criticized NLP and other forms of self help because they

540
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: tell people that they can radically change their lives when

541
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: there are systemic societal problems that mean that not everyone

542
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: is playing on an even playing field. What would you

543
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: say to those people, I'd.

544
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 2: Say, well, if you want to argue for your people's limitations,

545
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 2: you'll create them. I think it's bullshit when you tell

546
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 2: people that they have all these disadvantages. Not that there

547
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: aren't disadvantages, but the most successful people on earth started

548
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: with disadvantages. But what happens is they didn't let them

549
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: stop it. They didn't buy that story or that excuse, right,

550
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: because everybody has some injustice in their life, some more

551
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: than others, for sure, But some of the people with

552
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: the most injustice, whether they be societal or whether it

553
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: be physical being born blind or losing or going through

554
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: something of that nature, and they be some of the

555
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: greatest contributors to society in the world.

556
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: Tony's built his brand on this idea of sheer determination.

557
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: Infomercials like this one Personal Power brought Tony and NLP

558
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: into the homes of millions of Americans.

559
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 17: Call now and ordered the Complete Personal Power thirty Day

560
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 17: Success System for only one seventy nine to ninety five.

561
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 17: You'll receive twenty four audio cassettes, each containing life changing

562
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 17: information that Tony Robbins teaches and his live seminars through

563
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 17: the infomercials.

564
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: Tony sold a crazy number of cassette tapes, over one

565
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty million copies in the first five years

566
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: they aired, but he also sold Tony.

567
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 5: There's no question about Tony Robbin's skills in teaching people

568
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 5: success principles.

569
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: The only question that a person listening can have is

570
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: can I do it? My number one job in life

571
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: is really to be the destroyer of limitations. I took

572
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: on everything. Can imagine. I had a you know, a

573
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: woman who hadn't had an orgasm inntenure its obviously didn't

574
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: touch her, and had an orgasm on stage. Guys were

575
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: coming to tell me, can you teach me how to

576
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: do that? When I'm tired? So it just expanded, and

577
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: then gradually I started applying all the things I learned

578
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: into business and built businesses.

579
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 5: Tony's, without rival, the most successful NLP practitioner. His courses

580
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 5: teach success, including financial success, but it hasn't always worked

581
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 5: out for other people. I did some research into Tony's organization.

582
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 5: In the nineteen nineties, he franchised his seminars, but apparently

583
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 5: that wasn't always as lucrative for the folks taking the

584
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 5: courses or selling them. According to the Federal Trade Commission,

585
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 5: Tony's franchised NLP seminars misrepresented to people how much they

586
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 5: would make selling the seminars. Apparently, in some cases, if

587
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 5: you went to one of these events, like from a

588
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 5: franchise e, you just sat in a room and watched

589
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 5: videos of Tony No Yeah, And the agency said that

590
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 5: Tony promised that people doing this would make between seventy

591
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 5: five and three hundred K a year, but in fact

592
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 5: people made way less. Tony paid two hundred thousand dollars

593
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 5: to settle with the FTC in nineteen ninety five, though

594
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 5: he maintains that some franchises did make what he claimed.

595
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 5: Tony didn't comment on the settlement. Today, Tony has expanded

596
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 5: beyond NLP trainings. He told us he has one hundred

597
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 5: and fourteen different companies around the world. Thousands of people

598
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 5: are attending firewalks every year, and some even pay more

599
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 5: than eighty thousand dollars for a membership in what he

600
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 5: calls the Platinum Lions, basically an elite club where you

601
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 5: just get to hang out with Tony.

602
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: He learned these human persuasion technologies from NLP techniques. Like rapport.

603
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: Here is something that always works to get rapport, and

604
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: it's something called matching and mirroring.

605
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: This is from a Tony Robbins YouTube clip on how

606
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: to forge a sense of connection with anyone. In the video,

607
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: which was posted in twenty sixteen, Tony claims people like

608
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: people who are like them, and then teaches a room

609
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: full of students to match their breath tone and body

610
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: language to someone else's breathing.

611
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: Breathing's very powerful, one of the most powerful. If you

612
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: breathe at the exact same pace as another person, you

613
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: will feel what they are feeling. Period. But you got

614
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: to being from the same location, the same tempo and

615
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 2: breathing is magnificent because it really hooks you to this person.

616
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: This supposedly can create instant trust.

617
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: So you start bouncing your foot like this, back and forth.

618
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: Can I bounce my foot at the same tempo? If

619
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: I do, you'll feel totally connected to me.

620
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: And that trust and connection can be used to sell.

621
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: As he explains in one of his trainings, Mastering Influence, we.

622
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: Don't do things for logical reasons. We do them for

623
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: emotional reasons. I think this is really the truth that

624
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 2: selling is the process of finding people's pain, disturbing them,

625
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: stirring up their pain, making them feel the hurt, and

626
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: then it through new sets of choices, usually in the

627
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: form of your products or services. It's a hurd him

628
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: and healing business.

629
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 5: Tony wasn't the only one putting his own spin on

630
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 5: the techniques. In the nineteen nineties, Jordan Belfort aka the

631
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 5: Wolf of Wall Street, taught an army of cold callers

632
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 5: how to use rapport. That's according to training materials from

633
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 5: his investment bank that I found. Years later. Belfourt came

634
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 5: out as a fan of NLP. Here's him talking about

635
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 5: its power for sales in some YouTube videos from twenty

636
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 5: twenty one.

637
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: I had the benefits of studying the revenue gost, but

638
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 3: Richard Band would imagine if every time that you were

639
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 3: about to walk into a situation of influence, you could

640
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: feel as confident and as clear as the moment you

641
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 3: felt after you closed the best sale of your life.

642
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 5: As NLP grew, seminars churned out licensed trainers eager to

643
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 5: start new businesses. Nancy Salzman, who we met in our

644
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 5: first episode, was another and surprising young NLP whiz. In

645
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 5: the nineteen eighties, Nancy was a nurse specializing in hypnosis

646
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 5: for chronic pain. By the nineteen nineties, she was an

647
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 5: NLP trainer and had secured new gigs. Teaching NLP to

648
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 5: corporate employees at a con Edison Nuclear Plant rapport would

649
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 5: later become one of the methods Nexium taught their members

650
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 5: in order to recruit new people. We're going to get

651
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 5: into Nexium and some other wild applications of NLP and

652
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 5: future episodes.

653
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 4: It took me twenty years to figure this stuff out.

654
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 4: But I don't know, you know, they go to a

655
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 4: seminar and they go home and they sleep, and they

656
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 4: wake up the next morning and it's in their mind

657
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 4: just like that. Now, I wouldn't want to be real

658
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 4: impressed with a psychological technology and try to steal it

659
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 4: from the person who developed it.

660
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 5: We don't think Bandler's talking specifically about anyone here, but

661
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 5: about the number of people borrowing from his toolkit. It

662
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 5: seems to be getting to him. This is from Richard

663
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 5: Bandler's tape Creating Therapeutic Change.

664
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 4: I mean, I get this a lot of times at

665
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 4: seminars with people that try to come up and use

666
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 4: my techniques on me, and they don't realize that this

667
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 4: will piss me off.

668
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: Right.

669
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 4: I had one guy come home from the practitioner course

670
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 4: and he called me on the phone and told me

671
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 4: he was having a certain sexual problem and did I

672
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 4: think there was any relationship between the example? I kept

673
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 4: giving him over and over and over again, and I said, nah,

674
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 4: it's probably a coincidence, and he bought it. That's what

675
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:33,439
Speaker 4: I love.

676
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 15: He bought it.

677
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: I hung up the phone and I went Jesus Christ.

678
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: If Bandler was upset about people learning in LP and

679
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: making it their own hypnotically ruining their sex lives, was

680
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: pretty much all he could do about it. Because Bandler

681
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 1: and Grinder never copyrighted on LP, it got away from

682
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: them decades later they were fighting over ownership.

683
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 5: In nineteen ninety seven, Bandler sued Grinder, his old collaborator,

684
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 5: along with a bunch of other high profile NLP trainers

685
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 5: and two hundred John and Jane does for tens of

686
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 5: millions of dollars. He claimed unfair trade practices and trademark infringement,

687
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 5: among other offenses. A ton of people stop using the

688
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 5: term NLP because they were so afraid they get dragged

689
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 5: into this lawsuit.

690
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: Tony had already stopped using the words neuro linguistic programming.

691
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety one, he said in an article he

692
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: was icked out by the word programming and began calling

693
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 1: what he does neuro associative conditioning.

694
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, sounds familiar.

695
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: Tony's rebrand maybe a big part of why relatively few

696
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: people have heard of NLP, even though Tony is a

697
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: household name these days. Tony does mention NLP on his website,

698
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: and he hosted Bandler at a Platinum Lines event not

699
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: long ago where he talked about his debt to NLP

700
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: and to Bandler, And that's what.

701
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 2: Made me want to honor my thought. More people don't

702
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 2: need to know about Richard.

703
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 1: Actually, I asked Tony's secifically about Bandler.

704
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: Well, Richard is a wild man. He's brilliant, and Richard's

705
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: and give a shit what people think. Richard is willing

706
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 2: to do just about anything to get the outcome.

707
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 5: Next time on Mine Games.

708
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: Am I a better shot than Richard Bandler?

709
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: Yes?

710
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: What you heard it your first and you're a better

711
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: shot than Tony. You talk Tony how to shoot too.

712
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 1: Mind Games is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

713
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: The series is created and hosted by me Zoe Lascas

714
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: and Alice Hines. It's produced by writer Alsop and Dara

715
00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: luck Potts, edited by Kate Osborne, editorial consulting from Diza Egan.

716
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 5: Original composition and mixing by Steve Bone, fact checking by

717
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 5: Aman Whalen from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers are Oswaloshan, Mangesh Hatikador,

718
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 5: and Kate Osborne from iHeart. Our executive producers are Katrina

719
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 5: Norvil and Nikki Etour