1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: conversation about all things mental health, personal development, and all 3 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy hard 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: more information and valuable resources, check out the website at 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com. And while I hope 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: for joining me for session fifty three of the podcast. 12 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: This week, I wanted to take the opportunity to talk 13 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: about another topic that has been getting lots more attention 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: in recent years, narcissism. You've likely run across lots of 15 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: articles titled things like five ways to know if your 16 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: ex as a narcissist, So I wanted to make sure 17 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: we all had accurate information to address this issue. Today 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: I am joined by my friend and colleague, Dr Natalie Jones. 19 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: Dr Jones is a licensed professional clinical counselor and a 20 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: post doctoral psychologist. She currently has a private practice called 21 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: lifetime counseling and Consulting in Oakland, California, where she specializes 22 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: in working with women who have been in emotionally and 23 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: psychologically abusive relationships with narcissists, as well as with individuals 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: who were previously incarcerated for various crimes. Dr Jones also 25 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: works for the California Department of Corrections and specializes in 26 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: providing individual and group counseling and assessments to prison inmates 27 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: who have committed very sious offenses, with the specialization in 28 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: working with sex offenders. Dr Jones also has a podcast 29 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: called A Date with Darkness, which specializes in providing education 30 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: and tips from healing from narcissistic relationships. Dr Jones received 31 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: her Masters in Clinical Counseling Psychology from the Chicago School 32 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: of Professional Psychology in Chicago, Illinois, and her doctorate in 33 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: Clinical Psychology from the California School of Professional Psychology in 34 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: San Francisco, California. Dr Jones and I discussed why narcissism 35 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: is much more than just being selfish, the criterias someone 36 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: would have to meet to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, 37 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: Ways to take care of yourself if there is someone 38 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: with narcissism in your life, and she shared all of 39 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: her favorite resources. We would love for you to share 40 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: your thoughts with us on social media while you're listening, 41 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: so please use the hashtag TBG in session to join 42 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: in the conversation. Here's my chat with Dr Jones. Well, 43 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us today, Nett hi Joy, 44 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Yeah, so I am very 45 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: excited that you were able to join us today because 46 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: this has been a topic that a lot of people 47 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: have requested And I feel like I say that every week, 48 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,119 Speaker 1: but definitely a lot of people have. UM, a lot 49 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: of people have asked about this whole topic of narcissism, right. 50 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: We hear a lot of conversation about it, especially it 51 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: feels like this year there are a lot of articles 52 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: and things written about it. So can you give us 53 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: a definition of what narcissism is and how that is 54 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: different from maybe just being selfish or self absorbed? So, yeah, 55 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: I can definitely break it down for you because we 56 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: have the clinical definition, right, which is what you and 57 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: I would use because UM, as clinicians, we go by 58 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: the Diagnostic, Statistical and Treatment Manual, which is called the 59 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: d s M five Um, so we go by that 60 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: clinical diagnosis in versus society who now has this new 61 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: top culture diagnosis of narcissism. So I'll break down what 62 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,679 Speaker 1: the actual true definition of you know, narcissistic personality disorder, 63 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: rather what the characteristics are according to the clinical point 64 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: of which is what our term our frame of references, 65 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: which is, you know, what you want to look for 66 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: is a grandiose sense of importance. So someone who thinks 67 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: that they are better than everyone else, or they are 68 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: higher up the chain or above or almost godlike as 69 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: opposed to everyone else. Um. They typically fantasize about having power, success, control, 70 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: or being excessively brilliant or beautiful. Um. They also fantasize 71 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: about ideal love, like having the perfect lover. Um. They 72 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: believe that they are special, so they're more special than 73 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: anyone else. Um. They can only be associated with people 74 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: who are of a high status. So people that are 75 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, ranking right up there with the president or 76 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: just like you know, they just kind of they've got 77 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: to be up there. And I only associate myself with 78 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: people that are are are this good. I don't associate 79 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: myself with lowly common people. Um. They like to be 80 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: excessively admired UM. They Also, the one piece that stands 81 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:48,119 Speaker 1: out is that they're very entitled UM and extremely manipulative. 82 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: They lack empathy or the abilities to sympathize with other 83 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: people or their emotions or their situations. The other thing, too, 84 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: is that they often have a lot of jealousy or 85 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: envy over other people or other people's situations or other 86 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: people's um material things or material wealth. Another common theme 87 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: with folks who have narcissistic personality disorder is that they're 88 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: arrogant and you express rage um, which is different than anger, 89 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: but it's an extreme form of being self destructive or 90 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: just destructive in in general where they just kind of 91 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: want to obliterate everything in their path um and it's 92 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: an extreme emotion and uh, yeah, is so that's that's 93 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: the clinical uh form, that's a clinical definition of narcissistic 94 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: personality disorder. We're talking about society joy. We are talking 95 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: about people who do believe that someone is arrogant, or 96 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: someone is just being manipulative, or someone's just being a jerk. 97 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: Typically when they um, when they feel like that or 98 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: they feel like, oh, this person used me and they 99 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: got rid of me, Like I was and they treated 100 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: me like I was nothing, or maybe they were verbally 101 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: and emotionally abbusive to me, and so, um, that person 102 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: was very narcissistic, or that person was very self centered 103 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: and they didn't consider me. And so when someone says, um, 104 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: my ex lover, Mike's husband, Mike's wife was narcissistic, that's 105 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: typically what they are referring to. Okay, So just so 106 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: that people are on the same page for the purposes 107 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: of this conversation, we will actually be talking about people 108 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: who have actually been diagnosed or meet at least some 109 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: criteria for people with narcissistic personality disordered. We're not so 110 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: much referring to like the pop culture term narcissism. So 111 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: as you as you were talking that um, you you 112 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: describe lots of different characteristics that, right are wrong, have 113 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: been attributed to millennials, right, So this whole um idea 114 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: of entitlement and everything is about me, and I am 115 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,559 Speaker 1: special and I'm the most beautiful. Um. You know, people 116 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: often describe them as the gold Star generation because they 117 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: got a star for participating and there were no losers 118 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And so can you talk about um 119 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: like any research or anything you know related to like, 120 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: are we seeing more of a diagnosis of MPD, which 121 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: is you know, kind of what we kind of referred 122 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: to it as in millennials. You know, honestly, I don't 123 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: think so. Um. Joy. Just to answer your question, all 124 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: of us have elements of narcissism, right, and narcissism. Uh. 125 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: What a lot of people don't realize is it actually 126 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: runs on like runs and like a range scale. So 127 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: there's people at the low end and then there's people 128 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: at the high end of the scale. And only actually 129 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: about two percent of the population of people can be 130 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: classified or are diagnosed I should say, within p D 131 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: UM and other people are seen to have a narcissistic characteristics. UM. 132 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: As of right now, I don't have any studies on 133 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: me that I can quote, but UM, that's just been 134 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: in the work that I've done. UM, in the research 135 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: that I've done and the work that I do in 136 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: corrections and things like that when I'm gathering educational materials 137 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: and things like that. That's just what I've come across. 138 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: And it's also been in my work experience that actually 139 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: a low percentage of people have narcissistic personality disorder, but 140 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: there's actually a higher percentage of people that have narcissistic traits. Um, 141 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: so you will what you will find is people that 142 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: have a number of the traits that I've mentioned, but 143 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: don't necessarily meet all of the criteria of narcissistic personality disorder, 144 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: or they're falling much lower on the spectrum. UM. So 145 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: they may have a Yeah, if I could rate it 146 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: on a scale of one to ten in terms of 147 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: narcissistic traits, maybe they have one, and then on the 148 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: higher end they may have eight, nine or ten something 149 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: along those lines, if that makes sense. Okay, that's good 150 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: information there, because I did not know that there was 151 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: a scale, So yeah, that's what I mean. So, of course, 152 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking about the fact that like two 153 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: percent is a very very low percentage, right, So it's 154 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: very likely that most people have not actually come into 155 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: contact with somebody who is diagnosed with mp D, but 156 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: that a lot of us likely have experience with people 157 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: who have maybe a significant numbers of the traits. Correct. Okay, okay, 158 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: So what are some factors that might lead to people 159 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: developing m p D. Are a significant number of the 160 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: traits you mentioned that all of us likely have some 161 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: narcissistic traits. UM, But what what kinds of things lead 162 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: to somebody developing this disorder? Sure, UM, narcissistic personality disorder 163 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: as well as all of the personality disorders. Because I 164 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: specifically specialize in working with narcissist narcissistic personality disorder and 165 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: antisocial personality disorder. I also do some work with borderline, 166 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: but anti social narcissistic personality disorders are the main two 167 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: that I work with, especially in corrections. UM. All personality 168 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: disorders are rooted in trauma, So there's usually some form 169 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: of trauma behind that UM. And typically what I see 170 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: with narcissistic personality disorder is that men are more likely 171 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: than women to have it. That's to say that women 172 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: don't have it, because I have encountered women that do, 173 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: But men are more likely than women to have it 174 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: and also enjoy that UM. Typically, UH, folks who do 175 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: have it, it comes they typically have a parent, and 176 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: in my experience, more times than not or more often 177 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: than not, it's usually the father of that person who 178 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: also carries or also has that diagnostic criteria as well. Okay, 179 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: so trauma is really the main thing that we're looking 180 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: at when we're thinking about like any of the personality 181 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: disorder diagnoses trauma, Yeah, any any time you're looking at 182 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: a personality disorder in general, But within p D, you're 183 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: typically gonna have the trauma piece and you're also going 184 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: to have the family predisposition piece as well. Got it? Okay, Now, 185 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: something that's interesting, Um, And I think I did know 186 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: that it's more in that are diagnosed with MPD than women. 187 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: But it feels like I have seen a lot um 188 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: in terms of like narcissistic mothers. Um. And I'm not 189 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: thinking of the book. Do you know a book book 190 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: I'm talking about, Like there's a whole book about like 191 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: being the daughter of a narcissistic mother. Yes, yes, And 192 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: I don't recall who wrote it. I could probably pull 193 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: it up on my kindle. Yeah, and we'll add it 194 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: in the resources too, So we don't, but there is 195 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: a book, and I will add that in the show 196 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: notes for anybody who's listening. Um. But so it's interesting 197 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: to hear that, you know, the diagnosis really tends to 198 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: happen in women are men, But then it feels like 199 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: there is more like conversation about like narcissistic mothers. Do 200 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: you have any thoughts about that. Yeah, I do. I 201 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: think that, like I said, it does occur in women. 202 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: But again, it also you have to think about to 203 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: um again the traits, and so I think a lot 204 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: of times when you're talking about the traits, women are 205 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: going to be equally as likely as men to have 206 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: the full blown personality disorder. I typically have experienced mostly 207 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: men with that, and then too, again, it also comes 208 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: from it's an intergenerational trauma thing and that that's usually 209 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: passed down from mom to mom. And also, you know, 210 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: and this may sound biased, it may sound old worldly 211 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: or what have you, but typically we're talking about children 212 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: wanting to connect with a parent. A lot of people 213 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: focus on the bond that a child has with their mother, 214 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: and so there's been a lot more attention to the 215 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: relationships that children have with their mother as opposed with 216 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: their fathers. And this doesn't mean that a relationship with 217 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: your father is not equally as important, but there's just 218 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: been much more research and much more written about and 219 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: much more focused on that. And so when something is 220 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: not um right with a mom, or there's a breakdown 221 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: in the relationship with the mom, there's typically a lot 222 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: more focus given to that. Unfortunately, Yeah, that that is 223 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: a very good point, and I hadn't considered that that likely. Um, 224 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: we see more written about that because there's more research 225 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: related to like the relationship between a child and mom. Right, 226 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: very good, Yeah, there's there's actually you know, the dad 227 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: is equally is important. But when you're looking at stuff 228 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: that's being written, and I'm not saying that there isn't 229 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: anything that hasn't been written, but what I am saying 230 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: is there's a plethora more information written about the mom 231 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: and what what mom has done to me, because mom 232 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: is supposed to be viewed as more nurturing in the 233 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: primary caregiver. So I have often heard that that people 234 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: who are narcissistic, everybody else around them knows it besides them, right, 235 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: Like they may be so much in their own world 236 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: that that would never be something they would claim for themselves. 237 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: But you will see a lot about like how to 238 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: deal with the narcissists in your life and all of 239 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: these different things. And so I'm curious about, Like, you 240 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: did an excellent job of sharing like what the traits were, 241 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: but what does this look like in real life, Like 242 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: when you're talking about possibly dating somebody who may have 243 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: a significant number of narcissistic traits. What kinds of things 244 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: might you be seeing in that relationship? Sure, Joy, And 245 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that I necessarily agree that someone who's 246 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: narcissistic doesn't know because they, in my experience, a lot 247 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: of them do know that they lack empathy or they 248 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: lack certain traits. They just don't care. It's not a 249 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: problem for them, and what I mean, and so they 250 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: feel like everybody else is more so the problem because 251 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: you you are not rising up to their level to 252 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: meet their expectations either, So you know threw you. And 253 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: so that's that's more for what I see. Um. So, 254 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: getting back to your question in terms of the characteristics 255 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: of what you see, And I don't know if you 256 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: prefer that I talked about men because your population or 257 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: the not population, I've stopped saying that. But the people 258 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: who listen to your show are mostly women. UM, So 259 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: I'll just go ahead and refer to men because I 260 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: know that you have mostly female listeners here, but recognize 261 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: and know that this can be used interchangeably. And so 262 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: one of one of the ways that we can see 263 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: how narcissism shows up, um in our relationships with men UM. 264 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: I think the first things to look out for is 265 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: going to be uh that first of all, the it's 266 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: gonna be their relationship history. And so usually typically in 267 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: my experience and working with folks with personality disorders in general, UM, 268 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: their relations their their patterns with relationships are often chaotic, 269 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of dysfunctional relationships they lack in uh, 270 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 1: unstable relationships. The same also applies here for someone who's 271 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: very narcissistic and that they have a history of unstable relationships, 272 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: and what they're typically gonna be is what I like 273 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: to call the white Knight or the victims syndrome. So 274 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: that means that they perceive themselves as running in and 275 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: saving the day for everybody else. And this is the 276 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: kind of person that will say, you know, I had 277 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: to help my baby mama, and I took care of 278 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: all her bills, and I took care of all the 279 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: kids and all that kind of stuff, and I did everything, 280 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: and had it not been for me, UM, they just 281 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: would have, you know, self destructed in the middle of 282 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: the floor or something like that. So they owe they 283 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: feel like this again, this is where the grandiosity piece 284 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: comes in, Like I'm the person who ran in and 285 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: saved the day, or they could be the victim, like 286 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: everyone is out to get me, and you know, and again, 287 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: how this looks in the relationship pieces like oh my 288 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: EGX or my baby mama or whoever she tried to 289 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: come out and get me, and she got me fired 290 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: from my job, and she took all my money and 291 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: she did all these things to me, and woe is me, 292 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: and it's never ending, the plight of destruction brought on 293 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: by someone else. And so everything was done to this person, 294 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: and it's a miracle that they're even a lot because 295 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: all this stuff was done to them. And the other 296 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: thing to um that you want to notice or that 297 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: you would know us with a narcissistic person is they 298 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: like to be admired. They want to be loved by everyone. 299 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: How this shows up in your relationship, joy is that 300 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: they are going to be looking for you to fall 301 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: for them immediately. Um. And so this is the type 302 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: of person that might want to have sex with you 303 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: on the first date or they're gonna they're gonna rush 304 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: the relationship. So the relationship you've been two or three months, 305 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: you might be getting married, you might be moving in, 306 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: you might be having a baby together, and it's this rush, rush, rush, 307 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: and it's like this bombardment of love to rush into 308 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: something and it is. Things are happening so fast it 309 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: can make your head spend and it just feels like 310 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: one big honeymoon. And it's too good to be true. 311 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: This is your prince Charming and he's the perfect person 312 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: and he's doing all these wonderful things for you. And 313 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: if it's too if he's too good to be true, uh, 314 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: it typically is. So you're gonna see that. Um. Another 315 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: thing that you will see two is a lot of um. 316 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: There's there's an emotional shallowness um. And so what this 317 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: may look like is that there's gonna be a lack 318 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: of intimacy in the relationship. And that doesn't necessarily mean 319 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: sexual intimacy. That means emotional intimacy. So that means that 320 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,479 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily want They're not ever gonna be in 321 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: a position where they feel vulnerable or open to you. 322 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: They may let you in on some things here and there, 323 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: but it's not gonna be a person where you feel 324 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: like you completely know this person. In fact, you're gonna 325 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: feel just the opposite, like I see this person every day, 326 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: but I don't truly know who this person is. UM. 327 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: And the way that they may do this is they 328 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: may keep uh certain family members away from you. Uh, 329 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: they may not tell you things about their past, or 330 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: they're gonna lie a lot about their past, so they 331 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: could be a pathological liar UM. In another way that 332 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: they can do that and just try to keep as 333 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: much from you as possible. So they'll try to get 334 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: all of the information they can about you from you, 335 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: but they're not really ever gonna be divulging anything, if 336 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: with any depth, especially emotional depth uh to you. UM. 337 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: And so that's another sign to look for. UM. Another thing, too, 338 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: is that you may also notice that they have they 339 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: can turn on a dime and flip into a blind 340 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: rage or jealous So this person is going going to 341 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: be extremely jealous of you or people around you and 342 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: things like that. So they may attempt to try to 343 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: control who you and gauge with or limit those interactions, 344 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 1: or become extremely upset UM over what may seem like 345 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: it's nothing UM and try to you know, just basically 346 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: try to maneuver you like a puppet on the strings 347 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: and tell you, well, you shouldn't be talking to this person, 348 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: even if it's a family member. They'll try to isolate 349 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: you from those people so that you can basically be 350 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,239 Speaker 1: under their thumb um and under their control. And so 351 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: they'll say things about people. She's just jealous of you 352 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: because you've got X, Y and C. You don't need 353 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,239 Speaker 1: to be talking to her anyway because she's X, Y 354 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: and Z. Some things like that are going to be 355 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: some things that you're gonna hear. The other thing too, 356 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: is that UM, the big piece is gonna be a 357 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: manipulation and control UM. And this could be verbally that 358 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: you oftentimes see this financially. So financially what that looks 359 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: like is my money is my money and your money 360 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: is also my money. And so they're basically they may 361 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: not be paying bills or they may not be financially responsible, 362 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: and uh, they don't ever want to show you how 363 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: much they're making or go over finances with you, but 364 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: they expect for you to give you give you give 365 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: them your financial information and access to your finances and 366 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: things like that. UM. They can also be physically abusive 367 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: as a ways to obtain control UM. And so another 368 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: another thing UM that you will also see with the 369 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: narcissist is the hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is a big element, um, 370 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: and what hypocrisy looks like. For example, if you see 371 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: like a drunk guy on the street that you're with 372 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: your partner and you guys see a drunk guy drinking 373 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: liquor out of a paper bag or whatever, you'll be like, oh, 374 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: look at that drunk you know, and just kind of 375 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: like making a mockery of someone being drunk. And then 376 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: you're probably thinking to yourself when you go home and 377 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: you get drunk every night, so what are you talking about? 378 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: You know, you just you just get drunk at home. 379 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: So there's some hypocrisy there. Um. I see it a 380 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: lot in corrections, UM, with people who are predators, especially 381 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: sexual predators. Um, they'll be talking a lot about you know, 382 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: I can't be around him. He's a sexual predator and 383 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: he lessed kids, and he's this, and he's that. Well 384 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: you just said you do the same thing. What are 385 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: you talking about? So there's there's that big thing with 386 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: hypocrisy there. I hope I answered your question. I don't 387 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: want to go too far on Oh no, absolutely. Then 388 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: that was excellent information, UM and something that I think 389 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: probably for UM, fits into the manipulation. Can a worry 390 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: that you talked about is a term that I think 391 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: we often hear um in like regular just stories is 392 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: gas lighting? Um, So can you talk more about what 393 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: that is because I think we often hear but I 394 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: don't know that people really know like what that means 395 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: and what it looks like. Well, yeah, if you think 396 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: about the term gas lighting, um, the easiest way that 397 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: I can tell you is that it's it's basically like 398 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: feeling like here in the Twilight Zone, and you are 399 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: manipulating somebody to the point where someone is you're manipulating 400 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: them psychologically, emotionally, mentally, where they're actually questioning their own 401 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: sanity and whether or not something happened or whether or 402 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: not something was done, and you do it in such 403 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: a way that you are you were basically trying to 404 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: um dictate a relationship or control of relationships. So again, 405 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: one of the ways that this is done is you know, 406 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: it's a pathological they they're pathological line, which I think 407 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: I mentioned before, And so for example, UM, let's say 408 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: you catch your boyfriend cheating. He's at the mall, he's 409 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: kissing some other girl. You walk by and you see 410 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: him and he you know, you confront this situation, Oh, 411 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: it's not what you thought it was. Well, what was it? 412 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: I was just checking the temperature, you know whatever. They're 413 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: just gonna make up some blatant lion say and try. 414 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: Then um, they're gonna turn it around on you, like 415 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: what were you doing? Why are you cheating? Are you 416 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: trying to check up on me? And well, you know 417 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: you cheated? Was so and so? And I saw you 418 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: texting so and so? And then it's just gonna turn 419 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: around into this thing that has nothing to do with 420 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: what you actually saw. And then at the end of 421 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: the day, you're gonna be like, well, damn, that was 422 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: he actually kissing so so? Like am I nuts? Like 423 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: maybe I was wrong for trying to confront him for 424 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: kissing another person in the mall, um, you know. And 425 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: so there's there's also gonna be that constant you know, 426 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: denial the what you saw, what you heard, or what 427 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: you experience didn't happen the way you said it happened. 428 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: And that's essentially what I'm talking about, is like it's 429 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 1: it's this it's really this mind game. Um, and they 430 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: kind of twist these things to make you think it 431 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: didn't happen, and then you know, they try to turn 432 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: the situation around on you, and before you know what, 433 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: you guys were talking about something totally different than what 434 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: the conversation started out on, and they may be pulling 435 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: some things out of your past that you told them 436 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: in confidence to use against you. Um. Well, you know, 437 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: you said that you were going through depression, so you know, 438 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: I think you're hallucinating as a result of your depression, 439 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: and you're just you're just crazy and it kind of 440 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: just wears you down over time, and they just they 441 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: just throw that thing in to confuse you. And basically 442 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: it's just a mass manipulation to turn things around on 443 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: you and make you make you think that you're the problem, 444 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: whereas you know they obviously were and essentially what it 445 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: is is a cheap con mm hmm. So so not 446 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,959 Speaker 1: as you were talking it. You know, the word that 447 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: you used, I think even a couple of times was 448 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: like chaos um. And it feels like it may be 449 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: really hard for you to even recognize that this is 450 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: happening to you, right Like, if you're somebody who is 451 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: dating someone um with significant narcissistic traits, you may not 452 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: even realize it for a while, Like it feels like 453 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: there could be so much going on around you that 454 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: you that it takes a while for you to even 455 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: recognize that something like this is happening around you. Correct. Yeah, 456 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: So what kinds of tips or strategies could you offer 457 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: maybe for someone maybe who has realized like, okay, I 458 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: think my partner or a family member does have a 459 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: significant number of narcissistic trees. Are there any tips or 460 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: strategies you could offer? Yeah, I definitely offer a lot 461 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: of UM, I have some tips and strategies for that, 462 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: and so one of the things, of course, I definitely 463 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: think therapy is number one, because you need someone outside 464 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: of you UM to point you in the right direction 465 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: and say, hey, this person is seriously disturbed, because sometimes 466 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: what happens with friends and family members is that they're 467 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: so charmed by this person that they may not even 468 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: be able to see objectively because they've also been sucked 469 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: into the false facade. And so having a therapist that 470 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: can actually support you and listen to the situation objectively 471 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: and point those things out like this person is um 472 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: seriously disturbed and this is what's going on. Just being 473 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: that voice of reason, and by you just having that 474 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: awareness UM and and being able to talk about talk 475 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: about it with the therapist, the therapists can definitely effectively 476 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: help you navigate UM those channels. The other thing too, 477 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: I'd like to recommend is doing your own research. We 478 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: live in the world of Google. Google is great that 479 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: Google is like my best friend, and for somebody like me, 480 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: I actually have a Google assistance. So I talked to 481 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: my phone. My phone finds everything for me UM. And 482 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: one of the things that I often recommend is just 483 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: looking up these things on Google. But also Amazon is 484 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: also a great resource in terms of finding books and 485 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: so if you ever are wondering about UM, why you 486 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: do certain things or what is actually happening right now, 487 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: a great resource that I recommend for people is uh 488 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: any book by H. G. Tutor. H G. Tutor is 489 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: a self proclaimed narcissist, and he lays it out beautifully 490 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: UM in every single one of his books, UM in 491 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: terms of the signs that you should look for, UM 492 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: in terms of being able to spot a narcissist and 493 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: how you should navigate that relationship, or rather how you 494 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: should in that relationship. The other thing too, in this 495 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: again requires a level of self reflection that I would 496 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: recommends really sitting down and thinking about why are you 497 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,719 Speaker 1: drawn to this relationship? What's really keeping you in this circus? Um? 498 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: You know, is it the fact that you feel obligated 499 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: because you have kids? Isn't the fact that you feel 500 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: obligated because this is your parents. Is it the fact 501 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: that you don't like being alone and so therefore you 502 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: want to be in a relationship with someone by any 503 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: means necessary. Is it the fact that, UM, this is 504 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: the father of your child. What is the reason that 505 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: you are telling yourself in terms of why you're staying 506 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: in this relationship, Because that's something too that you also 507 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: need to be exploring. UM. Another way to sort of 508 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,959 Speaker 1: uh reflect in in terms of thinking about things is 509 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: remembering who you were and what you were like before 510 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: this relationship, what was going on with you, Because chances 511 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: are UM, once you're involved in a relationship like this, 512 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: you become a totally different person. You become lost in 513 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: this relationship UM, and you might have also become very 514 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: self destructive, or you may not even recognize who you were. 515 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: You might not even talk to the same people that 516 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: you used to talk to UM, or go out and 517 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: engage in any hobbies, you might feel a lot more 518 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: depressed and anxious and unsure of yourself. Now, Um, you 519 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: may have gained weight because you're so busy taking care 520 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: of this person. And so uh, with that being said, 521 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: I would definitely recommend going to have a physical and 522 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: and checking up with your doctor just to make sure 523 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 1: that things are okay with you physically and mentally, um, 524 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: in case you you feel yourself going down that road. Um. 525 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 1: So those are some things that I would recommend in 526 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: terms of you once you realize that you're in a 527 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: in that relationship. Now, if you're wanting to leave that relationship, 528 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: that's a different ball game, Okay, So that that might 529 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: require a different kind of set of strategies. It definitely 530 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: requires a different set of strategies. It may also require 531 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: are some additional support because um, and it can often 532 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: be very dangerous because one of the ways that narcissistic 533 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: narcissists work in their relationships, it's almost like a parasitic 534 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: relationship because they work by controlling and manipulating the relationship, 535 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: and that they don't want you to leave that relationship 536 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: unless they're ready for you to leave that relationship. So 537 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: if you leave before that that's gonna be a problem 538 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 1: for them. UM. And so you may want to have 539 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: a safety plan in place for that. UM. So you 540 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: definitely want to have a place to go. You might 541 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 1: want to have some money set aside. You. You definitely 542 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: want to have a support system UM in place, people 543 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: that you can trust that are not going to go 544 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: back and divulge things about that uh, talking with your 545 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: therapists and UM. You know, online support groups are also 546 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: great UM. Facebook groups and things like that are also 547 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: great if you if you're thinking about it but you're 548 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: not quite ready to UM or once you get out UM. 549 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: But definitely doing things like that, and also changing things 550 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: like passwords or getting a new phone number or you know, 551 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: just basically having anything that they can try to take 552 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: uh and manipulate or mess with. You want to have 553 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: that in a separate space or a safe space altogether. 554 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: You definitely want to be aware of your surroundings, be 555 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:35,760 Speaker 1: aware of any small changes or things like that. Also 556 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,959 Speaker 1: be aware for the backlash because there's a good chance 557 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 1: they're gonna spin out into a rage because they don't 558 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: like it. UM. And when someone spins out into a rage, 559 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: they become very irrational. And unpredictable, and they're gonna do 560 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: things to lash out because they want you to feel 561 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: the pain that they feel. Um. So they're gonna do 562 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: this by turning people against you. They may call your 563 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: job uh and harass you there. They may you know, 564 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: slash tires or break things, become physically destructive. They might 565 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 1: start talking to your friends and and other people who 566 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: know you and telling them lies about you or things 567 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 1: like that. So um and and also become like a 568 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: sad physically destructive, so they may want to assault you. 569 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: You might start getting a barrage of text messages or 570 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 1: phone calls that are very verbally abusive. God. So yeah, 571 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: so that's when we would talk about, like you mentioned 572 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: working with a therapist to make sure you have a 573 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: plan to kind of outline all of these things that 574 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: would need to happen for you to be able to 575 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: leave this relationship safely. Correct. So now I'm also wondering 576 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,760 Speaker 1: because it could also be the case that some people 577 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: may be listening and recognize like, wow, I think I 578 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: have a lot of these characteristics, right, Like I struggle 579 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: with a lot of these things. Um So, what what 580 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 1: kinds of strategies are um? Tips would you offer somebody 581 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: who kind of recognizes themselves in a lot of these symptoms. 582 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: You mean in terms of being a victim of narcissistic abuse, no, 583 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: actually being the narcissistic person themselves. You know, joy have. 584 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: If a person recognizes themselves as being narcissistic, typically in 585 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: my experience, they don't go to treatment unless they're mandated 586 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: or unless they've gotten a big kick in the butt. 587 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: A kick in the butt is usually like some sort 588 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: of um legal situation, or you know, there's a threat 589 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: that someone is going to leave them or something like that. 590 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: So if they're narcissistic, um, I would again, I would 591 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: recommend that you go to a therapist m a therapist 592 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: that is specifically trained in working with that type of 593 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: personality disorder because, um, again, that is a different type 594 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: of person than just your I'm not saying that, um, 595 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: other therapists aren't good or they're not qualified, but you 596 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: definitely want someone who is trained and working with personality 597 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: disorders because they're working with folks that have strong implications 598 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: of a personality disorder. That means that you also have 599 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 1: to have very firm boundaries and really and truly you 600 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: are a specialty because not everybody can do that UM, 601 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: and narcissistic folks UH, they tend to lash out a lot, 602 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: even with the clinician. So this is the person that 603 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 1: is often very litigious and is threatening to sue or 604 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: again gets into a rage when things don't go their way. 605 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: They're very demanding, they may not respect your time. They 606 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: may also not want to pay the bill for therapy 607 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: as well, so they may may try to skate out 608 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: without paying bills and things like that UM, and so 609 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: you want someone who is specifically trained in treating that. Again, 610 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: UM also what they may identify with though as opposed 611 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: to wanting to admit that they have a personality disorders, 612 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: they may actually recognize that they have feelings of anxiety 613 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: or depression. And it is true a person with narcissistic 614 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: personality disorder UM can have symptoms of anxiety and depression 615 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: and they'll often tend to minimize that, so they may 616 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: seek out medication for that. But you definitely want someone 617 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: who is trained in that UM. There's also within treating 618 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: that UM personality disorder, there's also UM specific source of 619 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: treatment modalities that work well with that UM. There are 620 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: some people who talk about empathy training I personally don't 621 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: use it. I think is a waste of time because 622 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 1: I don't think it's effective and training someone uh teaching, 623 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: So trying to teach someone who has no empathy empathy, 624 00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: but there are some people that prefer to do that. 625 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: It's just not for me. When I found that works 626 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: best in the folks that I work with, is um 627 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy, behavior modification, or even dialectical behavioral therapy 628 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 1: and basically what all that that means. Those are fancy 629 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: terms for basically having a person to look at their 630 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: behavior and looking at the impact that acting on certain 631 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 1: things is going to have for them. So I'm basically 632 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: retraining them how to evaluate their behaviors and things that 633 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: they can do instead of being destructive or instead of 634 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 1: being malicious to other people. Okay, so that is a 635 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: really important distinction because you know, one of the symptoms 636 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 1: that you mentioned was like a lack of empathy. And 637 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,839 Speaker 1: it sounds like it's been your experience that trying to 638 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,720 Speaker 1: teach somebody that is difficult, But what you have found 639 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: effective is helping them to understand like the consequences of 640 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 1: their actions, correct, got it? Okay? Okay, that sounds good. 641 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: So what are some of your other favorite resources? Now, 642 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: so you mentioned the h G Tutor books, but for 643 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: other people who maybe want to read more about this 644 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: or UM feel like they may be struggling with a 645 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 1: parent or a loved one who is having some of 646 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: these characteristics. What other books or resources do you really like? 647 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: I really like anything by Lundie Bancroft. Lundy has a 648 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 1: lot of good books. Um. Beverly Ingle also has great books. Um. 649 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: And let's see here. I also have Dr Susan Forward. 650 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: She writes a book on toxic families and things like that, 651 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: and so I love, love, love her stuff, and she's 652 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: an oldie, but goodie. UM. And there's yeah. So those 653 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: are some And of course I have to recommend my 654 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: podcast right because of course NARCISSI Stick of You, so 655 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: a Date with Darkness podcasts as well as my blog. 656 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: I also write quite a few things um, and then 657 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: do videos um and folks. UM. There's also people typically 658 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 1: if you're in a relationship with the narcissistic person, A 659 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 1: lot of people often suffer from UH coming from a 660 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: narcissistic family or having a narcissistic parent. There's a book 661 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: by Stephanie Donaldson Pressman. She wrote the book called The 662 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:36,800 Speaker 1: Narcissistic Family Diagnosis and Treatment, So that's also another good book. UM. 663 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:42,320 Speaker 1: Harriet Learner writes great books too. They're not about narcissism 664 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 1: per se that they are about very similar struggles that 665 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: people who are victims of narcissistic relationships have, so the 666 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 1: dance with anger, the dance with intimacy, and things like that. 667 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: So she's written a few great books, and I don't 668 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,320 Speaker 1: mind sending those over to you so you can post 669 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: that UM in your show notes joy Perfect. Yeah, I 670 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: definitely would like those because I know people will be 671 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: wanting to check a lot of this out to get 672 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,760 Speaker 1: more information. Definitely. And then there's a good YouTube channel 673 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: that I'm like, I'm gonna be doing mine UM again 674 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: when I have time. But another great person on YouTube 675 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: that has a lot of great YouTube channels is Kim Said, 676 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: and said is spelled s A E E D Kim Si. 677 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: She has a really good channel on YouTube UM that 678 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 1: talks a lot about narcissism as well. Perfect. Thank you 679 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 1: for that net So you already talked about your podcast 680 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: that definitely people should check out because you do an 681 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,320 Speaker 1: excellent job of like talking about all the different intricacies 682 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: of what this looks like and how you know you 683 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 1: can recognize some of this stuff. Um, But are there 684 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: any other announcements? There are things that you're planning that 685 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: you want to share. So I am planning on doing 686 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,479 Speaker 1: a conference, UM, I'm open coming up soon. I haven't 687 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: haven't set a date for PEZZY the Psychological Educational UM. 688 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 1: They do psych educational trainings and so I want to 689 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: be doing some trainings for them. UM. Me and some 690 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: colleagues have talked about doing a summit, but nothing is 691 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: set in stone yet. So a summit which would be 692 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: online um and filled with like webinars and things like that. UM. 693 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: And so those are the only things that I have 694 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: in the works that are kind of like swirling plans 695 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: right now. UM. I'm hoping to you know, get my 696 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 1: name out there a little bit more and write a 697 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: book again that's swirling in my head that it hasn't 698 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: come to fruition yet. So I'm hoping to have that 699 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: stuff in the works no later than a couple of 700 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 1: months from now. Okay, So is there a way for 701 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: people to like get on your newsletter or sign up 702 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,440 Speaker 1: for your newsletter on your website? So that they can 703 00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: kind of keep updated with all of the things you're 704 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,399 Speaker 1: gonna be Oh yeah, for sure Jones dot com again, yep, 705 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: Dr Natalie Jones dot com. So it's my name spelled out, um, 706 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: and all my social media handles and everything or is 707 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,879 Speaker 1: up there. And you know, I'm definitely on Facebook, um, 708 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 1: and it's a lot of times I'll do follow up 709 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: Facebook lives with the guests that I have on my show. 710 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,280 Speaker 1: I definitely have the group a Date with Darkness group 711 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: in which victims of narcissistic abuse can you know, basically 712 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: join and ask questions, um and talk to each other 713 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 1: and offer support and be like a safe support of 714 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 1: healing space. UM. So yeah, that kind of that, that 715 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,400 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. What you're administrator, you're an administrator of 716 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 1: my group. I think that right. That's okay. Well, that 717 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: is awesome information. And of course all this will be 718 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: including the show notes for people to find easily, um, 719 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 1: so that they can check out all the infantation that 720 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 1: you shared. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Nett. 721 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me Joy. It was 722 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: a pleasure to be up here on your show in 723 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: a long time in the making. Absolutely, I'm glad we 724 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: can make it happen. Thanks. I learned quite a bit 725 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: during my conversation with Dr Jones, and I hope that 726 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,080 Speaker 1: you did too. Please make sure to check out the 727 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: resources that she shared, and be sure to check out 728 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,719 Speaker 1: her podcast. She covers topics that I'm pretty sure you 729 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: won't find anywhere else. You can find all of that 730 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,280 Speaker 1: information at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session 731 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: fifty three. If you'd like to continue the conversations we've 732 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: started here on the podcast, make sure to join us 733 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: over in the Facebook community at Therapy for Black Girls 734 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,520 Speaker 1: dot com slash tribe. And if you're looking for a 735 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: therapist in your area, be sure to check out the 736 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:57,319 Speaker 1: therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. 737 00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to all of you who entered 738 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,240 Speaker 1: the give away and for all of your kind words 739 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: about the one year anniversary of the podcast. I really 740 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,400 Speaker 1: appreciate it. The winners of the giveaway will be announced tomorrow, 741 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,440 Speaker 1: so be on the lookout for that. I hope you 742 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,880 Speaker 1: all have an amazing week and I look forward to 743 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,719 Speaker 1: continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take care. 744 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: Fist