1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,720
Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

2
00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,200
Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

3
00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,559
Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

4
00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,840
Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

5
00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,120
Speaker 2: crime all the time. We hope you had a beautiful

6
00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,720
Speaker 2: weekend and we're so glad to be here and to

7
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,320
Speaker 2: get to share space with you. Because it is Listen Sunday,

8
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 2: October twenty six, and you guessed it. We have a

9
00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,519
Speaker 2: stack knight of headlines and yes, it's also Scientific Sunday,

10
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,800
Speaker 2: and we have forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, also the

11
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,280
Speaker 2: host of the hit podcast body Bags with us as well,

12
00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 2: because we have a lot of burning questions for you, Joseph,

13
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,360
Speaker 2: so he's here to help us unpack some of your

14
00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 2: talkbacks and also some of the latest headlines. Listen. We

15
00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 2: talked about this briefly last week, but what would have

16
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:07,520
Speaker 2: been the witness list if Brian Coberger, the Idaho student murderer,

17
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 2: had gone to trial has been unsealed and it's pretty

18
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,280
Speaker 2: jaw dropping and has a lot of implications, and we're

19
00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 2: going to discuss that and also the idea of what's

20
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:24,480
Speaker 2: now being called air quotes hesitation marks, which apparently Kaylee Gonzalvez,

21
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,520
Speaker 2: one of the victims, may have suffered. Have a lot

22
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,560
Speaker 2: of questions about that, Joseph, And also some of the

23
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,959
Speaker 2: talkbacks about Ellen Greenberg. I mean, we've seen this coverage

24
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,000
Speaker 2: and her alleged suicide is getting so much discussion. Also,

25
00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,280
Speaker 2: a clay case very close to Joseph's heart, We've gotten

26
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,959
Speaker 2: a lot of talkbacks about that as well. So we're

27
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,800
Speaker 2: going to have to fast talk tonight because we do

28
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,280
Speaker 2: have a lot to get through. Because we're also going

29
00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 2: to hit up the crime lab. Let's not forget everybody

30
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,880
Speaker 2: the crime lab. We're going to figure out what it

31
00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,680
Speaker 2: takes to actually get the time of death Correctbviously, Joseph

32
00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,120
Speaker 2: knows this better than anybody. And also just you know,

33
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:09,680
Speaker 2: remember Halloween week kicks off, so very spooky week ahead everybody.

34
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,480
Speaker 2: I hope you have your costumes. Joseph's cand of actually

35
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:18,320
Speaker 2: give us some interesting fun or even considered unfun facts

36
00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:23,200
Speaker 2: about Halloween, including a little teas here the origin of

37
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,640
Speaker 2: the term boo boo? Does that come from b o oh?

38
00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,000
Speaker 2: Widely used? You seeing it everywhere?

39
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,240
Speaker 3: Hang on now, I got to tell you, Jimmy calls

40
00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,280
Speaker 3: me her little booth thing every now and then, so.

41
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,280
Speaker 2: I've heard her the forensics. So is this the origin

42
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,000
Speaker 2: story of you and your beloved wife who we love

43
00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,239
Speaker 2: here as well, or is this more Halloween specific? I

44
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,120
Speaker 2: always find Halloween a little bit stressful. I love favorite,

45
00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:48,960
Speaker 2: I bet I bet you're real good at it. I

46
00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,440
Speaker 2: bet you are. And Courtney's come in with some stellar

47
00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,000
Speaker 2: costumes over the years that I've witnessed. Remember the Steward

48
00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:54,359
Speaker 2: I just.

49
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 4: Had some black lipstick on.

50
00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,360
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, she's bringing She's coming in hot h ot

51
00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,920
Speaker 2: for Halloween week. By the way, I forgot to mention,

52
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,120
Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, of course, with my favorite. I

53
00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,959
Speaker 2: keep saying mates. I even got a note about I

54
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:12,480
Speaker 2: keep calling you guys my mates.

55
00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,400
Speaker 4: That's a nod to our Australian friends.

56
00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,600
Speaker 2: Yes, Courtney Armstrong, body movin and of course Joseph Scott

57
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 2: Morgan and Taha, Sam and Adam were with us as well. Yeah. Mates,

58
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,119
Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm like making you guys pirates

59
00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,760
Speaker 2: or something. Maybe that's an Halloween but you guys are

60
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,280
Speaker 2: my mates. So I'm so psyched to get to be

61
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,920
Speaker 2: with you tonight. Did you guys have a good weekend?

62
00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,440
Speaker 2: First and foremost, yes, I did.

63
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 5: It was way too short though, Like I love you guys,

64
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:39,840
Speaker 5: but I'm kind of bummed.

65
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,280
Speaker 2: To see you so quickly tire time.

66
00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,600
Speaker 6: Yes, I just came from a party, the most darling party,

67
00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,040
Speaker 6: where they did a pumpkin carving contest.

68
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,960
Speaker 7: Actually, yeah, I had to leave.

69
00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,000
Speaker 6: I was not going to win, first of all, but

70
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 6: I left right before judging.

71
00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,400
Speaker 7: But I made a witch's hat that I did.

72
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,720
Speaker 6: Someone had a little, tiny little chainsaw very powerful, and you.

73
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,800
Speaker 2: Are the jewel heist. This is tracking.

74
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,520
Speaker 4: Was onto something with the chainsaw to it.

75
00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, well we're sorry we made you had to dip. Listen.

76
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,960
Speaker 2: I was counting the seconds until I got to see

77
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,120
Speaker 2: you guys. So I have enough love for you guys

78
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,159
Speaker 2: to last us through the rest of the show. I

79
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,600
Speaker 2: promise and listen. If you're having the Monday to come blues,

80
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,279
Speaker 2: no sweat, pull up a chair. You are welcome here.

81
00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,440
Speaker 2: And also we want to hear from you eight at

82
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 2: ehe three one crime or hit us up on our

83
00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,800
Speaker 2: socials or keep the talkbacks coming. So body, where would

84
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,240
Speaker 2: you like to begin? I assume this Brian Coberger update.

85
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Look, there's been a lot of talk about this,

86
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 5: so I wanted to kind of talk about it. Brian

87
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,880
Speaker 5: Coberger's you know, they're recently they're starting to unseal all

88
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,679
Speaker 5: these documents, and one of the things that they've unsealed

89
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,280
Speaker 5: recently was the witness lists, right, and everyone is kind

90
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,080
Speaker 5: of oh my god, they were gonna, you know, call

91
00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,359
Speaker 5: the roommates as defense witnesses. They must know something. So

92
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 5: I kind of wanted to go over this because I

93
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,279
Speaker 5: feel like it's important. These witness lists. They've been unsealed

94
00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 5: since Brian Coberger. Of course, he's accepted this plea deal

95
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,120
Speaker 5: and he got you know, four life sentences plus fifteen

96
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 5: and so he's going to be away for a very

97
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,039
Speaker 5: long time for the slaying of four University of Idaho

98
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,400
Speaker 5: students in Moscow, Idaho and November of twenty twenty two.

99
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,159
Speaker 4: I can't believe it's almost been three years.

100
00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:25,000
Speaker 2: I'm believed.

101
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,640
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, I just can't believe that the time

102
00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,240
Speaker 5: has just passed. So we learned that on this witness list.

103
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,520
Speaker 5: You know, besides you know, mother and father and his

104
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,080
Speaker 5: two sisters and you know, several friends from Pennsylvania. Looks

105
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,719
Speaker 5: like Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk were on this witness

106
00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,440
Speaker 5: list as well as some of the other victims, friends

107
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,600
Speaker 5: and whatnot. Again, Brian Coburger was convicted of murdering four

108
00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,560
Speaker 5: University of Idaho students in November of twenty two, and

109
00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,360
Speaker 5: he was sentenced to life in prison without parole in July,

110
00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,600
Speaker 5: so pretty recently. This plea deal spared everyone from a trial.

111
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,719
Speaker 5: So one thing I wanted to talk about this. You know,

112
00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,880
Speaker 5: there were fifty three people on this on this witness list,

113
00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 5: and you know it was rendered moot when he accepted

114
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,680
Speaker 5: this plea deal. Obviously, nobody's going to have to testify now.

115
00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 5: And I wanted to talk about it because people think

116
00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,800
Speaker 5: that because Dylan and Bethany were on this list, they

117
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:18,960
Speaker 5: must know something.

118
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:20,400
Speaker 4: Was why would the defense call them?

119
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,200
Speaker 2: Right? We remember when that happened, when there was a

120
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 2: secret meeting that the defense attorneys, at least for Bethany,

121
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,520
Speaker 2: she was living in Vegas, that's right, she was brought

122
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,440
Speaker 2: in to speak with the defense attorneys and we were

123
00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,560
Speaker 2: really curious as to the why. I think I know

124
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,160
Speaker 2: better now, but yeah, to your point, sorry to interrupt, right, No.

125
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,520
Speaker 4: Please, it's totally fine.

126
00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 5: So generally, you know, people who last seen the victims

127
00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,600
Speaker 5: alive will be called for the defense. And that's because

128
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,279
Speaker 5: when they're up on the stand being you know, testifying

129
00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 5: for the state, let's say, right, in most cases that

130
00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,599
Speaker 5: would happen, the state would call them and they would

131
00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,640
Speaker 5: be up on the stand. If the defense wants to

132
00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,799
Speaker 5: ask a specific question, they really can't unless the witness

133
00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 5: opens the door so to speak, for those questions to

134
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,000
Speaker 5: be asked. They can certainly be crossed, but you know,

135
00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,960
Speaker 5: you can't bring up completely irrelevant information that they didn't

136
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 5: testify about. So unless the witnesses makes some mistake and

137
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 5: like opens the door, or the state makes a stake

138
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,280
Speaker 5: and opens that door, the defense doesn't have free rain

139
00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,400
Speaker 5: to ask them you know, willing only questions. So the

140
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,640
Speaker 5: defense will call them as witnessless so that they can

141
00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,240
Speaker 5: ask them specific questions. So this is like really common

142
00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 5: for people that seeing the witnesses last or I'm sorry,

143
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,840
Speaker 5: the victims last. They can contradict events about relationships.

144
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,560
Speaker 4: Let's say, they.

145
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,080
Speaker 5: Can show inconsistencies in the timeline, introduce reasonable doubt by

146
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:50,559
Speaker 5: presenting alternative explanations, and I don't think Ann Taylor would

147
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,160
Speaker 5: have badgered them because it would have looked bad in

148
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,280
Speaker 5: front of the jury to badger the surviving roommates. I

149
00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,640
Speaker 5: think she would have been asking really poignant questions and

150
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,560
Speaker 5: trying to poke holes in the timeline and humanize her

151
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,120
Speaker 5: her clients, right, that's what she would have done. She

152
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 5: wouldn't have wanted to make these poor surviving roommates cry

153
00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 5: on the stand.

154
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 6: I don't think she would have done that, but I

155
00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,400
Speaker 6: would have to think that that would also be a

156
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,160
Speaker 6: good position then to say, oh.

157
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 7: Are you sure who you saw was x feet tall?

158
00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 6: Are you sure that you know if we make believe

159
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,720
Speaker 6: that there is a scar on coburger, did you see

160
00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 6: that scar? Or just little bits and pieces to introduce

161
00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,000
Speaker 6: reasonable doubt that it could have been some other perpetrator

162
00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,400
Speaker 6: about that size, Yeah, because.

163
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,559
Speaker 4: Her job is to create reasonable doubt. Rights right away.

164
00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,320
Speaker 2: There was plenty there. We saw the text exchange that

165
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,080
Speaker 2: the girls had with each other frankly, while the murders

166
00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,560
Speaker 2: were either happening or had just happened before they fell

167
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,840
Speaker 2: back to sleep, and they're really harrowing when you know

168
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,400
Speaker 2: the context, they're extremely harrowing. The other side to that,

169
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,640
Speaker 2: if you're a defense attorney, you could also take that

170
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 2: same text exchange and you didn't really know, you weren't

171
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 2: really scared. You know, you could sort of read them

172
00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,480
Speaker 2: two different ways. And my guess is they would have

173
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,319
Speaker 2: probably tried to poke holes in what they thought they

174
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,880
Speaker 2: saw versus what they actually saw. And now we know

175
00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:16,640
Speaker 2: that they saw the real thing.

176
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,319
Speaker 7: That's right. This is true crime. Tonight, we are on iHeartRadio.

177
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,040
Speaker 6: I'm Courtney here as always with Buddy Moven and Stephanie Leidecker.

178
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 6: Tonight is Scientific Sunday, so we are blessed to be

179
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,400
Speaker 6: joined by forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and we are

180
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:38,400
Speaker 6: talking about Brian Coberger, the student murderer of Idaho college students,

181
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,680
Speaker 6: and new information that's coming up coming out body.

182
00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:43,680
Speaker 7: What else do we need to know?

183
00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,679
Speaker 5: So Olivia Gonsalvas, she is Kaylee's sister. Kaylee was one

184
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,440
Speaker 5: of the victims of Brian Coberger, and she revealed in

185
00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,280
Speaker 5: this TikTok that prosecutors share twenty six images of Kaylee's wounds.

186
00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,040
Speaker 5: We talked a little bit about this on our show Thursday,

187
00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,520
Speaker 5: but we wanted to have this conversation because guess what

188
00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,079
Speaker 5: we have Joe if this great, you know, friended the

189
00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 5: real investigator, right, so Olivia described She said that they

190
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,560
Speaker 5: described these as experimental wounds, and from again, I'm a layman,

191
00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 5: and for I tried my best, Joseph, hopefully I made

192
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,200
Speaker 5: you proud. But in layman's terms, I understood experimental wounds

193
00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,920
Speaker 5: to be were, you know, injuries inflicted by an assailant

194
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,240
Speaker 5: after death or during the killing, done not to kill,

195
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,560
Speaker 5: but seemingly to test or explore. Do you know anything

196
00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,000
Speaker 5: about these experimental wounds?

197
00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,640
Speaker 3: Not specifically, but if the phraseology here is very interesting

198
00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,480
Speaker 3: because they're referring to and as you stated, body, and

199
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,560
Speaker 3: rightly so, it's you know that these were to test, explore,

200
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 3: or experiment with the victim's body. That implies post mortem status,

201
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,200
Speaker 3: which is, you know, as if this couldn't be more chilling,

202
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,000
Speaker 3: I think the big question I would have to do

203
00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,960
Speaker 3: that see, how can delicately put this that seems very

204
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:08,200
Speaker 3: like a very leisurely activity in a very frenetic moment

205
00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,240
Speaker 3: If you're going to be experimenting at that point in time,

206
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 3: I don't know if something has been lost in translation.

207
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,280
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that really came to

208
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,520
Speaker 3: mind were these actually post mortem or this falls over

209
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:28,600
Speaker 3: into something that I could see this killer do given

210
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,920
Speaker 3: what we know about him. And I love this word,

211
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,160
Speaker 3: by the way, it's the word menacing and this idea

212
00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,520
Speaker 3: that it's almost a tortuous event, where if you're doing

213
00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,520
Speaker 3: this in the anti mortem or even perry mortem state,

214
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,280
Speaker 3: which means in the throes of death, is this subject

215
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 3: taking the tip of the knife and pressing it in

216
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,880
Speaker 3: just enough, over and over again? And do they have

217
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,520
Speaker 3: true evidence of that? Of course, you can verify that

218
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 3: at autopsy, because even with the most superficial wounds, you'll

219
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 3: begin to have a cellular reaction that will present in

220
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,040
Speaker 3: the wounds. In the wound track. You'll see hemorrhage in

221
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,280
Speaker 3: dwelling hemorrhage in there because as we well know, the

222
00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,280
Speaker 3: dead do in fact not bleed, and so that would

223
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,120
Speaker 3: be something that would kind of rise through to the surface.

224
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,280
Speaker 3: But the phraseology here is very compelling. I would like

225
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,520
Speaker 3: to have more information relative to this so that I

226
00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 3: could kind of sus it out scientific Yeah.

227
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,439
Speaker 5: You know me too, because you know we understand that

228
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,560
Speaker 5: Kaylee put up quite a fight, yeah, and you know

229
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 5: we learned that from Steve Consalvez. Kaylee's father, who you know,

230
00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,160
Speaker 5: at some point she sat up in bed. I have

231
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,280
Speaker 5: my own thoughts about that, but this is what we

232
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,359
Speaker 5: learned from Steve right, that she sat up in bed, and.

233
00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 4: She put up quite a fight, and he there was

234
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,400
Speaker 4: a struggle of some we know.

235
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:49,000
Speaker 2: We know that.

236
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,679
Speaker 5: And when I first saw Olivia's TikTok, I thought, oh,

237
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,080
Speaker 5: maybe it was just during the throes of this fight

238
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,079
Speaker 5: the knife, you know, kind of scraping her or whatnot.

239
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,040
Speaker 5: But when I dug into what speriment or wounds were more,

240
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,800
Speaker 5: I kind of learned through my reading at least that,

241
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,959
Speaker 5: like you said, they would have been able to see

242
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,920
Speaker 5: that she hadn't been bleeding. And the cellular change that

243
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 5: happens to these wounds when you're cut. If you're alive,

244
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,080
Speaker 5: your cells react, if you're not, they don't.

245
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,000
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, there's a trauma response at a cellular level,

246
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,080
Speaker 3: and I think sometimes people are surprised by that. And

247
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,920
Speaker 3: this shouldn't be I mean, that's just the way we're made,

248
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 3: right And Yeah, and I've covered God, it seems like

249
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,560
Speaker 3: more and more, particularly on bodybags, I've covered more and

250
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 3: more of these cases where people are doing things with

251
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,560
Speaker 3: the dead of course, we could add that to the

252
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,480
Speaker 3: litany of all these other cases that are out there.

253
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,520
Speaker 3: But again, I'd like to try to understand, you know,

254
00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,360
Speaker 3: how this information was actually relate to her, if there's

255
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,200
Speaker 3: been something that has been lost in translation. But here's

256
00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,640
Speaker 3: the thing about it. There's a lot of specificity here

257
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,839
Speaker 3: on her part. So she's taken in some type of information.

258
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,480
Speaker 3: I just don't know how to marry it up with

259
00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,719
Speaker 3: the wounds that we're talking about and maybe a descriptor

260
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,079
Speaker 3: that you know, I guess from a scientific perspective. One

261
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,400
Speaker 3: of the things that I was hoping for in the

262
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,720
Speaker 3: trial is that we would have an explanation of the trauma,

263
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,600
Speaker 3: because we've heard about the trauma. And again, I'll go

264
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 3: back to what I've said before, and I will always

265
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:29,280
Speaker 3: stand by this. I wanted this bastard to allocute in court,

266
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,000
Speaker 3: and I wanted him to say it, and I wanted

267
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,400
Speaker 3: them to talk about it just so we could understand

268
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 3: the level of horror and what this guy had done.

269
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:38,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, me too, And I think, you know, Joseph, I

270
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:39,640
Speaker 4: think he will eventually.

271
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 5: I think he's going to, you know, get lost in

272
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,280
Speaker 5: oblivion and he's going to get bored and he's going

273
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 5: to talk maybe I cancur well.

274
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,280
Speaker 7: Time will tell, but listen when we come back.

275
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 6: What we will absolutely tell you is more answers to

276
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 6: your questions about Ellen Greenberg. The talkbacks have been coming

277
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,200
Speaker 6: in fast and furious, and Joseph be here with us.

278
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 6: We also have Crime Lab with Joseph.

279
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 7: And we want to hear from you.

280
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:16,360
Speaker 6: Eight A eight through one crime True Crime Tonight.

281
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

282
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,160
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. Put your hands in the air.

283
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,720
Speaker 2: The whole studio. Everybody is listen. They're doing their commercial break.

284
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 2: Hands in the air, everybody. Yes, we're also doing a

285
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,320
Speaker 2: little self care Sunday. Don't forget anybody, So if you

286
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,880
Speaker 2: have any great self care tips for this glorious Sunday,

287
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,680
Speaker 2: let us know. Because our Noxima wipes have also been recalled,

288
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,040
Speaker 2: so I can't even take my makeup off. They're dangerous FYI.

289
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 2: But listen, we've gotten lots of talkbacks about Joseph's one

290
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,800
Speaker 2: of these cases that's so close to him, Ellen Greenberg,

291
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,320
Speaker 2: her alleged suicide, and some of them we even heard

292
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,480
Speaker 2: last week but didn't totally know how to answer since

293
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,320
Speaker 2: they are so specific to the forensics. So Joseph, let's

294
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,040
Speaker 2: just hop right in. Can we go straight to we

295
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:04,520
Speaker 2: talk back?

296
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,880
Speaker 8: Hey j Gooes, it is Mary Kay from Cincinnati, Ohio.

297
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 2: Again.

298
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 8: I was just listening to the Ellen Greenberg episode and

299
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 8: my issue and I'd love to know what Joseph thinks

300
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 8: is if she stabbed herself in the back of the head,

301
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,000
Speaker 8: which is what the stab pattern looks like, wouldn't it

302
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 8: have an angle on it if you're trying to stop

303
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,920
Speaker 8: unless she keeps switching hands.

304
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,240
Speaker 2: And what a good question. I love Jacos too, great

305
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 2: question though, I do too. I like that great questions.

306
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, And we actually had heard a longer version

307
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,800
Speaker 6: of this last week, but since it was addressed to Joseph,

308
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,440
Speaker 6: we wanted him to cover it to catch anyone up.

309
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 6: Ellen Greenberg was an absolutely beloved twenty seven year old

310
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:52,119
Speaker 6: teacher in Philadelphia. She was found with twenty stab wounds

311
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:57,880
Speaker 6: multiple bruises. Originally, her death was ruled homicide. It was

312
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 6: then quickly changed to suicide after a meeting with police

313
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,119
Speaker 6: held privately with the pathologist, and then over the past

314
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,399
Speaker 6: fourteen years has been ongoing back and forth legal You know,

315
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,680
Speaker 6: they're trying to settle homicide versus suicide. So, Joseph, you've

316
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,439
Speaker 6: been very close with this case.

317
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have. And Mary kay right, is that our

318
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,840
Speaker 3: name Cincinnati? Yeah, thanks for asking this question, because it's

319
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,959
Speaker 3: certainly sailing it. I think that family's team did an

320
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 3: excellent job with the three D rendering that everybody's familiar with.

321
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,520
Speaker 3: And if you take a look at that image, not

322
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 3: only are there various wound tracks if you think of

323
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,480
Speaker 3: and we talk about wound tracks with knives, and it's

324
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 3: the same as like bullet trajectories in a way, you know,

325
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,199
Speaker 3: because they track through the tissue and we do, in

326
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,240
Speaker 3: fact track each one of those at autopsy. Not only that,

327
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,680
Speaker 3: but and you have some that are kind of from

328
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,480
Speaker 3: above to below and from left to right and from

329
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 3: below to above. But the blade of the knife as

330
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,080
Speaker 3: well is turning. So if you just think about instead

331
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 3: of the blade being configured in a north south position

332
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,719
Speaker 3: where the southern position of the knife is the actual

333
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,879
Speaker 3: blade the cutting edge, they'll rotate to the east west

334
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,960
Speaker 3: orientation as well. So this knife knife is not only

335
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,840
Speaker 3: entering the body, but the knife is also kind of

336
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,720
Speaker 3: changing the positionality relative to the strike. This is a

337
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,879
Speaker 3: very dynamic event. However, the wounds on the back appear

338
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 3: to be essentially in the same orientation, with the blade

339
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 3: being in the southern oriented position and entering the back.

340
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,280
Speaker 3: More so on the front, you will see this variation

341
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,600
Speaker 3: in how the knife is. This knife would have had

342
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,000
Speaker 3: to have been turned or rotated in the hand or regripped.

343
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,320
Speaker 3: I think again, that's another one of these enduring mysteries

344
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 3: relative to these injuries that Ellen sustained, and is the.

345
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:07,359
Speaker 2: Assertion that she potentially stabbed herself in the back so

346
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,959
Speaker 2: many times to set somebody up. Was she trying to

347
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 2: set a stage so it didn't look like a suicide.

348
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 2: It seems like a tremendous awful thing. I mean, we're

349
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 2: talking all things, and tremendously hideous. I recognize we're in

350
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 2: that conversation right now, so there are no perfect words

351
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 2: to use. But if the if death is the goal,

352
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 2: and a self inflicted one, I might add, it rips

353
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 2: my heart out. But from behind just seems just seems

354
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,480
Speaker 2: so unusually unlikely.

355
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're talking, you know, these these insults stuff

356
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,679
Speaker 3: to our posterior. We're talking double digits here. Some of

357
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 3: them might even cross communicate, like sometimes in the Morgue.

358
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:56,000
Speaker 3: We'll have a very difficult time differentiating between stab wound

359
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 3: A and stabwoin B because they're literally right on top

360
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 3: of each other, and there were some question about that

361
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,159
Speaker 3: early on, and penetratively they're at different depths. They're not

362
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 3: all consistently at the same depth. One of the really

363
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 3: nasty injuries that people seem to, you know, kind of forget,

364
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,679
Speaker 3: and this is a sharp force injury, is the if

365
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 3: folks at home will kind of take their right hand

366
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,399
Speaker 3: and put it on the back of their head, if

367
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 3: you'll find your occipital what's called your occipital protuberance, which

368
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 3: is kind of the bump on the back of your head,

369
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 3: and go above that and over to the right. She's

370
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,880
Speaker 3: got a really really nasty and sized wound there that's

371
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 3: several centimeters in link so and that's a full thickness

372
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 3: injury that she sustained as well. So it's not just

373
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 3: these penetrative injuries like that, they're like stab ones. She's

374
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 3: actually got to slice on top of her head as well.

375
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 3: This is a very painful, painful event, y'all.

376
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 4: For Ellen, poor Ellen.

377
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 2: This is my heart just rips out for her, for

378
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 2: her family and anyone who knew her and loved her,

379
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 2: because it doesn't seem as though they feel closer to

380
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 2: real answers also, which is you know, really rough.

381
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, And you know, the more attention this gets, the

382
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 5: more people come out of the woodwork, right, you get

383
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 5: unscrupulous characters involved and whatnot, And everyone just needs to

384
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 5: be very careful on who they talk to, you know,

385
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 5: her family and whatnot. Needs to be on the lookout

386
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 5: for Cyster's right, Like, yeah, I.

387
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 3: Agree the green Berks. However, I have to say the

388
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 3: green Berks have a really good team around them. Those people,

389
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 3: their attorneys and also their private investigator that has worked

390
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,680
Speaker 3: for them for some pom fantastic gentlemen. They don't suffer fools.

391
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 3: They do not suffer fools. So I think that they're

392
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 3: gonna they're going to protect her, protect them.

393
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,159
Speaker 6: We have a I'm sorry ahead, Yeah, I was going

394
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 6: to say, I think we have similar talkbacks lined up this.

395
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 9: Story from Utah, And these are the days that I

396
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,400
Speaker 9: really wish I had listened live instead of the next day.

397
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 9: I'm listening to the Getting six Apartment six with three discussion,

398
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 9: and I knew it was going to get me riled up.

399
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 9: I beget this case just does. And she did not

400
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,679
Speaker 9: do this to herself. She didn't hold some knife on

401
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,919
Speaker 9: a wall or whatever and back up into it. You

402
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 9: look at him and how that nine one one call

403
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 9: is so ridiculous. That knife and as I'm misunderstanding, and

404
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 9: it was hidden under some big jacket or something, but

405
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 9: to my what I've seen and heard, it was visible

406
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 9: from the start. And I'm talking about someone with a

407
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 9: zipper and then goes, oh my god, there's a knife,

408
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 9: she gabbed herself. I'm only a few minutes into the discussion,

409
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,880
Speaker 9: he said, I already was like riled up and needing

410
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 9: to call me a message something to go back and

411
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 9: continue with me. Thanks for the discussion.

412
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 2: She's the best, by the way. We all had that

413
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 2: same reaction, by the way, it gets yeah.

414
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 5: Really in our guts. The knife was very visible through

415
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 5: her hoodie. I mean it was sticking right out. And he's,

416
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 5: you know, on the phone with a nine one one

417
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 5: operator and he says, I'm gonna on zipper hoodie. So

418
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 5: I'm paraphrasing, Okay, I'm gonna on zipper hoodie, and oh wait,

419
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 5: there's a knife. There's a knife in our chest and

420
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 5: it's like, what, why do you talk talking about you?

421
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 5: You didn't notice the huge knife in her heart area?

422
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 7: Right?

423
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 6: It was very many people find it to be suspect.

424
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 6: And Joseph, what that talkback was referring to was someone

425
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 6: else left to talk back, and the suggestion was potentially

426
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 6: that Ellen herself sort of had the knife braced against

427
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 6: the wall and potentially backed up into it.

428
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 7: Do you have a thought on the likelihood of that.

429
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, Anatomically, I think that it's still highly implausible that

430
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 3: even okay, even if we say okay, unless they are

431
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 3: theorizing that she had some kind of anchorage on the

432
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 3: handle of the knife that literally made the knife protrude

433
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 3: out from a wall so that she could back up

434
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 3: into it, and not wielding the knife herself with her

435
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 3: own her own two hands or either one of her hands.

436
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 3: I still find that that kind of fanciful. And know you,

437
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 3: it's kind of like these cases that we you know,

438
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 3: that we hear about where people will uh concur incur

439
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 3: rather forgive me incur multiple bruises and you'll have someone say, uh, yeah,

440
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 3: they fell down the stairs. And of course my next

441
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 3: question and granted I'm you know, kind of snarky by nature,

442
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 3: I will say, uh, well, exactly how many times do

443
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 3: they downstairs? Because you know, you don't get this many

444
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 3: injuries by a single fall onto either a heart surface

445
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 3: or a sharp instrument okay, or a rock. You know,

446
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 3: you it's generally one and done. You might have some

447
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: associate peripheral stuff. But guys, again, I go back to

448
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 3: this number. We're talking double digit stab wounds here. That's

449
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 3: a lot. That's a lot.

450
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 4: I do appreciate though, that people are thinking outside the box.

451
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 3: I want to. I want everybody to think, yeah, absolutely

452
00:24:59,000 --> 00:24:59,239
Speaker 3: they have.

453
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 2: Definitely, we're kind of coming at it at all angles,

454
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: you know, and to the nine to one one call.

455
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: I mean, we never really never know what that situation

456
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: is like until you're in it, right, But I am

457
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 2: curious why her fiance hasn't been more vocal about finding

458
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: answers for her or you know, saying something loving about her.

459
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: You know, she's sort of been left out to dry

460
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: and to be judged as you know, a beloved school teacher,

461
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: which is which is also really rough. Yeah, do we

462
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 2: have another talk.

463
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 10: About Hey, y'all step from Bama. I literally just pulled

464
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 10: my share up to the true crime table and ready.

465
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 3: To do takes.

466
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 10: I'm so excited that I finally get to talk with

467
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 10: y'all about the Ellen Greenberg documentary. My mind has just

468
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 10: been because what so I need to know y'all thoughts

469
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 10: on this?

470
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 3: How?

471
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 11: When, where?

472
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 10: Who? And in what world? Why did it take so

473
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 10: long for him to see the knife? I mean, I

474
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 10: know not all trauma responses are the same, but come on, really, really, dude,

475
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 10: I mean help me to understand. Thanks, y'all, y'all are

476
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 10: the best.

477
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, this goes back hood even again, right, you know

478
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 5: this this idea And for those that don't know, go

479
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 5: listen to the nine one one call. It's available, you

480
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 5: can listen to it. And in this nine one one call,

481
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 5: he's like, she stabbed herself or something. Again, I'm gonna

482
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 5: I'm gonna paraphrat Why didn't he assume that somebody had

483
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 5: stabbed her?

484
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 7: Right?

485
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 2: Right? But how did enter all crime scene that clearly someone?

486
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 2: A great question caller? Why wasn't his assumption? Oh my goodness,

487
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: I'm finding my fiance with a knife in her There's

488
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 2: been an intruder, right, somebody has come in and, you know,

489
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 2: and and taken her life. You know, I'm just wondering

490
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: that she stabbed herself. It was weird.

491
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: I've actually had cases where people again, I'm so glad,

492
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 3: and I promise you she's not my neighbor. She said,

493
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 3: y'all wost Tom. I know Obama, she is not my neighbor.

494
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 3: I did not. I did not ask her to call

495
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 3: him a God bless her love her accent. The you know,

496
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 3: the thing about it is is that I've had cases

497
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 3: where people that were you know, we've talked about this

498
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 3: before step that are the finder. I use this term

499
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 3: a lot on body bags as well, because those are

500
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 3: the point of contact, those people that that visualize the

501
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 3: horror before anybody else. And I'm talking about the first

502
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 3: responders as well. You know, they see it before everybody. Generally,

503
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: some civilian doesn't have any experience with it, and you

504
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 3: do miss things. And that's part of what she's talking

505
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: about here with trauma response. Initially, you might see someone

506
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: that is deceased and you don't know, but you know,

507
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 3: here here's the thing. Many times will go back after

508
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: we've gotten an initial report on a case and we

509
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 3: will find additional trauma that it's like, wow, gee, we

510
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 3: didn't see this at the scene. Or lighting was poor,

511
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 3: or it was covered with clothing, and then suddenly you

512
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 3: have this, you know, this epiphany, you know, scientific epiphany

513
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 3: on the table when you're beginning to you know, just clothing.

514
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 3: I've actually had weapons fall out of pockets of the

515
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 3: dead onto a stainless steel table and it you know,

516
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: you hear it. But again, this is this is difficult

517
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 3: I think for many people to understand or to visualize

518
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 3: how you can have this knife. And it's not like

519
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: some tiny, little paring knife. Okay, this is this. This

520
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: knife is significant. It's it's rather substantial. It's kind of glaring.

521
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: And so when you see that, you know, I think

522
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 3: it's it's reasonable for people to actually say, how do

523
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: you not see it? You know, but you know you

524
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: have to step back just for a second and give

525
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 3: people a certain degree of the benefit of the doubt.

526
00:28:58,760 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a.

527
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 5: Good point, because I did judge his reaction. I and

528
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 5: so you bring up a fair point. And for those

529
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 5: who don't know, I'm going to repeat it again. On

530
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 5: this nine one one call, he says that he's gonna

531
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 5: unzip her hoodie and he's like, oh, I can't, I

532
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 5: can't do it.

533
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 4: Oh, there's a knife sticking out of her chest.

534
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 5: And again I'm paraphrasing, and you know, but you get

535
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 5: the gist, right, liking that's what he's saying. And it's

536
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 5: just really strange because in the photos that we've seen

537
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 5: of poor Ellen, the knife is very obvious. But is

538
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 5: it because we're not in that trauma response? It could be, right,

539
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 5: it could be because we're not experiencing that trauma that

540
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 5: Sam did when when he found her right right.

541
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 6: And then the other thing to consider, Stephanie, you'd earlier

542
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 6: mentioned very reasonably, why would the first assumption be she

543
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 6: did this to herself versus it was done to her.

544
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 7: And keep in mind, if we to.

545
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 6: Believe what he has stated as his facts, he had

546
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 6: to break the door and open it was locked.

547
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 7: She was locked in by herself.

548
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, So next talkback, are you up for it?

549
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 3: Unless Roll says I'm ready.

550
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: I like your style.

551
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 12: All right, let it rep Hi and you were talking

552
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 12: about the Delphi murders last week, and that made me

553
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 12: think of a question. If I remember correctly, Joseph Scott

554
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 12: Morgan mentioned there was unknown DNA fount of the scene.

555
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 12: If I'm remembering that correctly, has any forensic genealogical research

556
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 12: been done to identify the owner of that DNA, thank you.

557
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, not to the best of my knowledge. And I

558
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: think that's a fantastic my point because and I don't know,

559
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 3: I don't know that there is the bureaucratic will to

560
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 3: do that at this point motivation, But but that's that's

561
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 3: the that's the reality of it. But you know, there's

562
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 3: still all of these things that that swirl and look

563
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 3: with high profile cases there there's always going to be

564
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 3: these ghosts that swirl around cases all the time and

565
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 3: you'll never have the ability to answer any of them.

566
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 3: And many of us I think that, I think many

567
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 3: of us would like to think that, you know, well,

568
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 3: if there is unknown DNA, there is there any way

569
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: it could be tested? Well, yeah, I mean I'm covering

570
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 3: cases right now in body bags. You know that they've

571
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 3: got DNA that goes back fifty and sixty years. Wow,

572
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 3: and they're solving cases with it. So I think the

573
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: viability of it dependent upon how it was collected, has

574
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 3: been stored since then. It's probably still viable. They could

575
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 3: probably get something out of it. Well, the question is

576
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 3: do they have the will to do it?

577
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 4: Well, no, they don't.

578
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 5: Right, there's a convicted man in prison right now serving

579
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 5: time for these murders, and they're not really motivated. But

580
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 5: the forensic analysts who testified about the DNA, who testified

581
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 5: about the dNaM, sorry, said that there wasn't enough for

582
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 5: an SMP profile. You know, there was a lot of

583
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 5: unknown male DNA at the scene and none of it

584
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 5: matchment Richard Allen.

585
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 4: That's number one and number two.

586
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 5: She did justify that, you know, you know, while this

587
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 5: was DNA was found, that it's common that there will

588
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 5: be unknown male DNA and very small amounts due to

589
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 5: sharing laundry spaces. But it is in laundry spaces, yeah,

590
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 5: like if you have like your son, or your or

591
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 5: your daughter or you know, your.

592
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: Dad, almost somebody who are doing laundry with or for.

593
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 5: But it's important to know that Abigail Williams, she's one

594
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 5: of the victims here, did not live with any men.

595
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 5: But she was also wearing Libby's clothes and Libby did

596
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 5: live with men.

597
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, there are actually test cases out there and

598
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 3: maybe one hot profile case where there was DNA that

599
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 3: was transferred onto I think it was an actual case,

600
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: and forgive me, I can't remember which one where there

601
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: was DNA transferred from a a factory line worker that

602
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 3: produced underwear and A and it transferred on Yeah, yeah,

603
00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 3: that's right, Yeah, and it survived.

604
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: I was so hell bent on the knife in the

605
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger case. I was that that that I held

606
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: on real tight for that possibly being DNA from someplace

607
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: else because of this exact example in the John Banat

608
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: Ramsay case.

609
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 6: Stand by just for anyone else like me who was

610
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 6: not conversant. Can you say that again, what happened with

611
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 6: Jombane's under.

612
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 5: When they did the DNA test and they found unknown

613
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 5: male DNA and it belonged to the factory worker who

614
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 5: was like sewing her pants together.

615
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

616
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: That always surprises me when you see other cases where

617
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: the you know, a small micro bit of DNA becomes

618
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: the smoking gun, because I've personally either heard of or

619
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: worked on cases where transfer is possible, and even right

620
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: now working on a documentary that I can't wait to

621
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 2: tell you all about. I can't wait. It really dates

622
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: back for decades, and you know it does involve kind

623
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: of going to the body farms and also looking at

624
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: DNA that may have a need to be retested, and

625
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 2: all of these circumstances are really big, really big parts

626
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: of a potential solve, and it's it's pretty incredible what

627
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 2: technology today is able to do, even with well, you know,

628
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: decaying evidence.

629
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 5: Well, hopefully DNA advances, right, and it always does, right,

630
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 5: the DNA technology, and there's all this new science coming out,

631
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 5: and you know, maybe in five ten years they'll be

632
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 5: able to have the technology to test the small sample

633
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 5: that they have right now of this DNA that they

634
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 5: found on you know, the items in.

635
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 4: The Creek of Delphi.

636
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 5: You know, the Greek had all the you know, some

637
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 5: shirts and some shoes and a bandana that, by the way,

638
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 5: they never tested the DNA and the bandana drives me

639
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 5: absolutely insane. Abby had hair in her. Abby, she's one

640
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 5: of the victims. She had hair in her in her

641
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 5: fingers like kind of like intertwined. They never tested it

642
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 5: until the day the trial started. I mean, it literally

643
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 5: makes me crazy thinking about this. But hopefully, hopefully, you know,

644
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 5: they'll test for that stuff in a couple of years

645
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 5: maybe when technology advances, so stand you stand.

646
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 7: By for that.

647
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: This case I find very confusing. I know, this is

648
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 2: one that you're so much closer to you and Joseph

649
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: than I am. I really learned about it mostly through you,

650
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: and I have more questions and answers, to be honest,

651
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: and some of their alternate theories do seem slightly sensible,

652
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: which is really brutal. And now that I've said that

653
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 2: out loud, I want to take it back because I

654
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 2: don't want anyone to feel that justice isn't being served

655
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: or that, you know, I'm as an outsider looking and

656
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 2: trying to poke holes. But it's a complicated case and

657
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: so disturbing and sad.

658
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 5: It's very, very complicated and sad. Thank you for that.

659
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 5: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

660
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 5: crime all the time. I Boddy moving here with Stephanie

661
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 5: and I Decker and Courtney Armstrong. We are joined by

662
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 5: Justice Scott Morgan, forensic death investigator and the host of

663
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 5: the hit podcast body Bags. Right now we're going through

664
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 5: some talkbacks. Let's hit another one.

665
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 11: Hi, True Crime tonight, Sam. This is Andy from Minnesota.

666
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 11: I first talk to you guys the night of the

667
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 11: Annunciation School shooting. Yes, but a completely different topic. I

668
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 11: was just listening to your Sunday Night episodes with Joseph

669
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 11: Scott Morgan and talking about the Body Farm, and I

670
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 11: just wanted to note that doctor Bass wrote a series

671
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 11: of true crime fiction that includes The Body Farm and

672
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 11: kind of the behind the scenes of what goes on there.

673
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 11: And if you like that kind of murder mystery, true

674
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 11: crime fiction, I highly recommend doctor Bass's book. That's all

675
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 11: I wanted to say. I hope you guys have a

676
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 11: wonderful night.

677
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: Oh look, I don't know you wrote books fiction books.

678
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, he has. And I was telling you guys, I'll

679
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 3: tell everyone else. One of the I think probably one

680
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: of the the text that professionally that must have is

681
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: a text very simply titled human Osteology for those of

682
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 3: us that work in the field, and it came out

683
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 3: in a rate. Do you know that kind of fortified

684
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 3: paper back binding that you have that's kind of resilient,

685
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 3: water resilient, these things are made out, you know, it

686
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 3: has that like you could take it into the field

687
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 3: with you. I've got buddies of mine that have taken

688
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 3: the pages and detached them from the spine and had

689
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 3: them all laminated and they would carry in a binder.

690
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 3: That's how useful this text was. And it was kind

691
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: of groundbreaking when it first came out. But another good

692
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 3: line of fiction I would recommend quickly as it applies

693
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 3: to forensic anthropology is a dear friend of mine who's

694
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 3: now retired. She's retired from LSU Department of Archaeology and Anthropology,

695
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 3: and she's world renowned. Her name is Mary Manhein and

696
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 3: wrote a series called The Bone Lady, and she's the

697
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: first person, the first person that every human skull and

698
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 3: digitized it. And she ran and founded the Faces Lab

699
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 3: at LSU, which I worked with extensively in my time

700
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: down in New Orleans. They were the first people to

701
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 3: actually do clay renderings based upon found skulls. And she's

702
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 3: she's written several books as well, so I highly recommend those.

703
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: I'm taking notes. There is a few places I would

704
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: want to be less than in a body farm. And

705
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: I don't mean that to be glad, but it sounds

706
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 2: so scary to me. It sounds scary, and I have

707
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: such respect for the work of you know, doctor Bass

708
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 2: or mister Bass. He's a doctor and he's really oh,

709
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:46,919
Speaker 2: he's the he's the guy.

710
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: He is the guy, he certainly is, and he's he's

711
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 3: the person you turned to he's he is that Uh,

712
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 3: he's that cornerstone. I think that's pushed that's pushed out

713
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,240
Speaker 3: the practice. And it was a tool that I think

714
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 3: it was the tool that we never knew that we

715
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: truly needed to the degree that we need it now.

716
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 3: And oh my lord, we've been talking about DNA with

717
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 3: all of these cold cases that are out there. I

718
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 3: mean there are mountains and mountains of these cases out there. Guys.

719
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 3: I've been in medical legal offices before, and you would

720
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 3: be shocked by the things I've seen of just boxed

721
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 3: skeletal remains that have no name, that are just sitting

722
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 3: on shelf somewhere that no one knows who they are.

723
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 3: Their points of origin have yet to be determined. You

724
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 3: know where they came from, who their family is. And

725
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 3: you know, I always use particularly when we're getting and

726
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 3: we're heading toward Thanksgiving right now, and I always think

727
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 3: of the empty chair at the table. That's That's one

728
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 3: of the things that I always contemplate because I've stood

729
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 3: over so many unidentified bodies over the course of my career,

730
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 3: and it's people like doctor Bass and that generation of

731
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 3: forensic scientists that have really set us on the course,

732
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 3: now where we are today with forends and now evolving

733
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 3: into GG as well.

734
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's amazing the progression. And for anyone who wants

735
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 6: to read any of the fiction. Doctor Bill Bass, he is,

736
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 6: of course that legendary forensic anthropologist we've been talking about,

737
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 6: and he co writes a series called Body Farm. He

738
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 6: does that with journalists a guy named John Jefferson and

739
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 6: his pen name doctor Bass is Jefferson Bass.

740
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: Oh that's clever.

741
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, so Boddy said, you taken notes if I am

742
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 6: taking that reading list Carved in bone, flesh and bone,

743
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 6: the Devil's Bones and more.

744
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 2: When Joseph first talked to me about doctor Vass again

745
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: a case that we've been working on for a really

746
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: long time, and I needed some guidance from Joseph and

747
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: he was like, you should one hundred percent reach out

748
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 2: in Knoxville to the Party Farm. And you know, doctor

749
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 2: Bill Blast, he's the he's the guy and I wrote

750
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: down in my scratchy notes designer. So when I had

751
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 2: to repeat that, I was like, there's a diner that's

752
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 2: very well known in the forensic space. I was thinking

753
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 2: of Bill Blast, the clothing designer. Oh, which of course

754
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 2: is not the case. But to solve that little riddle

755
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: took me many many days. Wow, something, Wo've come a

756
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: long way from taking those notes. But yeah, that's a

757
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: really important stuff. We should donate our organs, right, I

758
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: know this is a little tangential, but is that the

759
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 2: box that we should check on our license when applying

760
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: for one?

761
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 3: Joseph, Yeah, yeah, well I do. Are we talking about organs?

762
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: Are we talking about bodies?

763
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 2: I guess any of it.

764
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 3: Well, there are people that do, in fact donate their

765
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 3: their remains to the body form and for some reason,

766
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's because I'm kind of out

767
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 3: there in this world, you know, I will literally have people,

768
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 3: you know, contact me and say, yeah, my uncle or

769
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 3: my aunt wants to donate their remains to the body farm.

770
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, that that ain't my department. I can

771
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: maybe find you the phone number at UT and you

772
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 3: can you can reach out to them. But yeah, people

773
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 3: people actually do that. And you know, at jack State

774
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 3: right now we have a human anatomy lab for the

775
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 3: first time for our forensic students, and we're actually doing

776
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 3: gross deus sections with undergraduate students. So yeah, and that's

777
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 3: that's the benevolent nature of individuals that want to use

778
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 3: their remains for the betterment of scientific discovery, and you

779
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 3: know we're we're a benefactor of that at my university.

780
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 3: So yeah, I would. I would highly recommend it. I

781
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 3: certainly would.

782
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 2: Okay, I needed to hear that that's exactly what I

783
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 2: will do. I'm getting tomorrow. Yeah, I mean I have

784
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 2: that actually on my previous license. I did just check it,

785
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: but I don't know why.

786
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 7: So since we're.

787
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: Talking about it, I might also just do the gut check.

788
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 6: I think there's a distinction, right because on your license,

789
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 6: my understanding is donate your organs is if something happens

790
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 6: to you that someone needs.

791
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: Your license is simply your organs to donate your.

792
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 3: The other one is actually called anatomical donation, and that's

793
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 3: the entirety of your remains, as opposed to an organ

794
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 3: donor where they do organ harvestation. I've had the great

795
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 3: fortune of working with organ donor organizations because of working

796
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 3: for corners and medical examiners. They will have to get

797
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 3: our approval before they can actually because if you have

798
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 3: a traumatic death, there is a forensic assessment that has

799
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 3: to take place, and so we will coordinate with them

800
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 3: when we know that the individual is going to be

801
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 3: passing on and they will have to get us trauma notes,

802
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 3: they will have to let us know, let us know

803
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 3: about what's going on and what's going to happen. And

804
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 3: maybe sometime I'll tell you a really unique story about

805
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 3: organ donation and forensic death investigation that directly involves me.

806
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: Is this going to be a flipanger?

807
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a clip paint.

808
00:43:58,239 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: Off air.

809
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 5: Have you guys ever seen the videos of people that are,

810
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 5: you know, getting ready to pass and they're organ donors

811
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 5: and the hospital staff kind of you know, wheels their

812
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 5: bed down the hallway and there's like the row. I'm

813
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 5: gonna start crying because it makes me so emotional, like

814
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 5: for real. I don't know why it does, but it does.

815
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 5: There's like the row of the doctors and nurses that

816
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 5: are I think it's called an angel walk a walk.

817
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 2: I don't know what this is.

818
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's basically the hospital staff showing respect to

819
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 5: the person that's going to be donating the organs and

820
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 5: they film a lot of people film it and post

821
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 5: it to social media. It's the most beautiful thing and

822
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 5: it's so emotional for me, especially Oh, I just it

823
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 5: breaks my heart, but yeah, because they're basically saving like

824
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 5: how many lives can be saved from one organ donor.

825
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 4: It's just it's incredible and I'm here for it.

826
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: I know for it too. I'm here, I've we've seen

827
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: it firsthand too. I have some personal friends who have

828
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: really benefited from the donation. So listen more on this

829
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: stick with us. Joseph Scott Morgan will remain with us.

830
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 2: We have the Crime Lab coming up and also some

831
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 2: spooky Halloween stories True Crime Tonight. Welcome back to True

832
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time.

833
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In

834
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan. Because it is scientific Sunday.

835
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 2: And if you've missed any of the first hour of

836
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 2: the show, absolutely no worries. You could always catch it

837
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 2: as a podcast. Please do. And if you want to

838
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: join us live eight eight three one crime or leave

839
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 2: us talkbacks for doing that so so well, it's so

840
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 2: good to hear your voices, or you could always dm

841
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: us if you want to be super super anonymous about it,

842
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 2: but not necessary, jump in join us. We have the

843
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: smartest callers. It's frankly unbelievable. I Love was just saying

844
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: this during the break, So yeah, it makes us so happy. So, Joseph,

845
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: we tried this a little bit last week and then

846
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: of course we ran out of time and there was

847
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 2: some sort of audio thing. So we did crime Lab

848
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 2: last Sunday, you may remember, and we started talking about

849
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: time of death and how to determine it, and then

850
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 2: it went a little sideways. So we're revisiting it, not

851
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 2: because we have amnesia, but simply because we didn't fully

852
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 2: unpack it the way we were supposed to do.

853
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 4: Stephanie Courtney was the jewel thief.

854
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 2: She wasn't exactly her cherry picking Chris.

855
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 7: It was otherwise engaged ed.

856
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that tomorrow. Ed you got

857
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 2: to come back with us because tomorrow we're going to

858
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: unpack the arrests in the heist. I don't think we

859
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 2: forgot about that, but that's more of a Monday thing.

860
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: Since we have Joseph here, we really want to dig

861
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 2: into two more forensics, so so more on that to come.

862
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,879
Speaker 2: So Joseph, Yeah, fell us in about the time of

863
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 2: death and how it is determined.

864
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 3: Well, you know, there's there's three primary areas that we

865
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 3: look at that we observe at a scene. Okay, so

866
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 3: in many many folks you know, as you as you mentioned,

867
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 3: our listeners are very bright. So I know that many

868
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 3: of them, because they're true crime fans, have heard these terms.

869
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: But just let me run through them. We do riger mortise,

870
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 3: which is also referred to as rigidity. Some people say

871
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 3: riger some say rigor. It's okay, either one. There's no

872
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 3: word police here. We have liver or liver mortis, which

873
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 3: is the settling of blood and some people refer to

874
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 3: that as post mortem lividity. And then we have alger mortise,

875
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 3: which has to do with body temperature. Now I'm going

876
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 3: to take these from the least reliable. All right, Like

877
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 3: the thing, if if you were to put a case

878
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 3: in front of me, what is it, which one of

879
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 3: these would you turn to first? And I'm going to

880
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,399
Speaker 3: tell you the one that I'm going to strike off

881
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 3: the list first is the one that we hear most

882
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 3: about when you're watching any kind of you know, procedural thing,

883
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 3: and that's algormortois body temperature. It's the data from it

884
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: has very little utility. These measurements always, and I mean always,

885
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 3: have to be done at the scene. You cannot wait

886
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 3: and do this at the more. Okay, this has to

887
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 3: be done at the scene because so much of it,

888
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 3: well particularly with temperature, is environmentally deependent. Okay, So not

889
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: only do you have to measure the temperature on the body,

890
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 3: but you also have to measure environmental temperature at the

891
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 3: same time, and you do these. You do this in segments.

892
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 3: So you'll take an overall environmental temperature, which is referred

893
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 3: to as ambient environmental temperature, and then you take the

894
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 3: temperature of the body. Well, a lot of people say,

895
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 3: well how do you do that? Good question, all right,

896
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 3: because it's been a major point of debate for a

897
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 3: long time. I used to do what are called axillary temps,

898
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 3: where we would take a standard glass thermometer and put

899
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 3: it in the armpit. Actually, look, when I.

900
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 4: Was a kid, that's what my mom would do.

901
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 3: Right, exactly. Yeah, and so but that's not getting to

902
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 3: the core, all right, the core, the body, the interior.

903
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 3: We hear about core when we work out, right, you

904
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 3: need to have good core strength. Well, we talk about

905
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,959
Speaker 3: core body temperature because that's what holds on the core

906
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 3: of the body is the densest part of the body.

907
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of like you know, when it's

908
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 3: cold out, Moms has put a hat on, right, so

909
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 3: you have heat that escapes even the deaddoo out of

910
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 3: the top of the head and then from the periphery

911
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 3: as well. And so one of the things that has

912
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 3: been suggested over the years is that we do and

913
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 3: I get ready, that we make an incision that's scene

914
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: over the liver and you insert a digital thermometer into

915
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 3: the liver and take temperature there. Well, it's all finding good,

916
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 3: but in the world of lawyers, you have to do

917
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 3: every scene every time, and you have to repeat that

918
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 3: every time. So that's problematic. If say, for instance, you've

919
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 3: got a multiple stab wing case, you're now going to

920
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 3: be taking a scalpel at a scene and introducing that

921
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 3: into a multiple stabling case or even a bullet trajectory

922
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 3: or a gunshot wound case. It doesn't it doesn't match up.

923
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 3: You have to look at long term you know, consequences

924
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 3: here because it's in the data that you might glean

925
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 3: from that. I'll put it to you this way, just

926
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 3: like my grandpap. You say it ain't worth the gunpowder

927
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 3: below the hell at the end of the day, it's

928
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 3: just it's not worth the risk. So when I got

929
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 3: toward the end of my career, I was basically saying,

930
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 3: the body is either warm to the touch or cool

931
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 3: in the touch. And you know, and it's real because

932
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 3: you know, after a twelve hours, After twelve hours you've

933
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 3: heard the term room temperature, you have literally assumed room

934
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 3: temperature at that point in time. You've bled off every

935
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 3: bit of energy that creates heat in your body at

936
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 3: that twelfth hour. And now if you're in a room

937
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,760
Speaker 3: where the sun is rising, you know through a window

938
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 3: you're going to be affected. The remains are going to

939
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 3: be affected, just like a piece of furniture in that room. Okay,

940
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 3: after that twelve hour, you're subject to all the other

941
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 3: environmental parameters in that environment. So algar is probably the

942
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 3: least useful out of all of these that I'm talking about.

943
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 2: Can I ask one quick question on that particular piece,

944
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: Does it matter what your normal body temperature would be like?

945
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 2: For example, I'm always like my extremities are always frozen,

946
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 2: or you know what, or in reverse some version, I'm

947
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 2: never room temperature. It's there's a high low avenue, but

948
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: I'm always like a little cold, So in that case,

949
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: that could be perceived as a longer amount of time that.

950
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 7: I it could be.

951
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a good point. There are certain factors

952
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 3: that affect core body temperature. Let's say, for instance, for

953
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,959
Speaker 3: parents that have infants, one of the most terrifying things

954
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 3: you can have happen with a baby is when they

955
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 3: spike this temp. And for some reason, babies will spike

956
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 3: these just horrific numbers many times, well many times we

957
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 3: will have babies that will pass away and when that happens,

958
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 3: when that happens, they might die with a spiked temp.

959
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 3: So their temp is going to be elevated as opposed,

960
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 3: and any other sick individual might as well. They're spiking

961
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 3: a tempt. You can also have illicit drug use, things

962
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 3: like meth and coke that can elevate your temp actually,

963
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 3: and it can impact that, you know, and many of

964
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: us as we get older, we have poor circulation, so

965
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 3: our sensitivities are that it is cold, but that doesn't

966
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 3: necessarily mean that we're at some drastic number that's really

967
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 3: really low. And no, not everybody is walking around with

968
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 3: ninety eight point six. That's not the reality. There are

969
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 3: many matter of fact, my body temp most of the

970
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 3: time is around about at ninety seven.

971
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 2: Uh. And Joseph Scott, right, yeah, yeah, well yeah, you know, you'd.

972
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,919
Speaker 4: Have to get scanned at least. I need to walk

973
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 4: into buildings and whatnot. Here in Las Vegas.

974
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 5: You have to see if you were spaking to I

975
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,439
Speaker 5: was always hot, I was always running hot.

976
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 4: I didn't know I always runn about ninety nine yea.

977
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 3: So none of these things are static like that. And

978
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 3: so the the you know, the utility of it, I

979
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 3: think is what you have to look at. Now. For me, uh,

980
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 3: probably number two on the list is going to be rigidity.

981
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 13: Uh.

982
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 3: And when we think about that, so for anybody, let

983
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 3: me give you an idea of what traditionally people refer

984
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 3: to as ryger morts or rigidity. If you've ever worked out,

985
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 3: and you haven't worked out in a while, and you

986
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 3: wake up the next morning, have your fifth felt that stiffness,

987
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 3: and it doesn't matter if you take tyl and al

988
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 3: or ibuprofen or anything like that. Do you think wait,

989
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 3: can I say that? Are they going to sponsor us

990
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 3: now anyway? So I didn't think so anyway, So you

991
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 3: think about you think about that, whether you take it

992
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:16,720
Speaker 3: or not, that stiffness is eventually going to subside. All right, Well,

993
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 3: the reason, the reason you feel that stiffness most of

994
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 3: the time is it's a lactic acid build up and

995
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:29,280
Speaker 3: it dissipates, it's metabolized. The dead don't have the ability

996
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 3: to metabolize any longer, so in the post mortem state

997
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 3: they have in their joints, they have lactic acid build up,

998
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 3: and that starts with rigidity. And people say that it

999
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 3: begins in different areas at different times. That's not true.

1000
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 3: It begins everywhere simultaneously in all the muscle groups. It's

1001
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 3: just most appreciable in the small muscles of the face.

1002
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 3: So you can actually have rigidity in the muscles of

1003
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 3: the eelids, certainly in the jaw presents there. And then

1004
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 3: it extends out to larger muscle groups because those muscle

1005
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 3: groups are larger.

1006
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 7: Oh so interesting.

1007
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 6: I didn't I also had preconceived notions that it started

1008
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 6: in certain places. Well, listen, I have a couple of

1009
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 6: other questions for you, And if you have questions for

1010
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,399
Speaker 6: Joseph Scott Morgan, give us a call. We're at eighty

1011
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 6: to eighty three to one crime True Crime Tonight, and Joseph

1012
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 6: is walking us through sort of the core forensic markers

1013
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 6: of how you determine time of death.

1014
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 7: So as.

1015
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 6: As the rigor mort is does, does it peak at

1016
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 6: a certain time, happen and then dissipate and what does.

1017
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 7: That look like?

1018
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it does. And so it's gonna present and

1019
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 3: it's dependent. It's individually dependent, right, And most of the

1020
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 3: time you're going to see you're going to see a presentation,

1021
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 3: particularly in the smaller muscle groups at about two to

1022
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 3: four hours down range in the about the tenth or

1023
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 3: twelfth hour, or you'll see an individual become fully rigid.

1024
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,240
Speaker 3: I've seen. There's a classic image that appears in Spitz

1025
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 3: and Fisher Medical Legal Investigation of Death. Doctor Werner Spitz

1026
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 3: is actually the one that consulted on the Jean Benay

1027
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 3: case famously from the CBS. If you remember that he

1028
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 3: wrote that book, and that's a book that first came

1029
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 3: out in sixty six. There's a classic picture in there

1030
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 3: where they have a human remain between two chairs with

1031
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 3: the back of the head resting on one chair and

1032
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 3: the heels resting on another chair, and it looks like

1033
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 3: you can the iron a shirt this on the decedent's body.

1034
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 3: That's how rigid the body gets. And so but after

1035
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 3: that point in time, rigidity begins to recede very very slowly,

1036
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 3: and out to about the thirty six hour mark, it's

1037
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 3: now dissipated. And one of the interesting markers about this,

1038
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 3: you know, you say, well, Morgan, is this important. Well,

1039
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 3: it's very important because it's with that that we can

1040
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:03,320
Speaker 3: measure these time since death. You go back to algramortise

1041
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 3: the body temperature. You know you're looking at twelve hours there, right,

1042
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 3: So if you marry that up with the data that

1043
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 3: you're collecting on the level of rigidity, and we do that,

1044
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 3: we do it in the fingers, the hips, the knees,

1045
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:18,439
Speaker 3: the ankles, the shoulders, the elbows, the jaw. We try

1046
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 3: to measure it, okay, And there's not a specific number.

1047
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 3: We give a range like ten being the highest, one

1048
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 3: being the lowest. And so when bodies actually come out

1049
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 3: of riger mortis or rigor mortis, they're flaccid at that

1050
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 3: point in time. So if you have a cool body

1051
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 3: that's flaccid and maybe has a little bit of an odor,

1052
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 3: you know that they've already cycled through that. So those

1053
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 3: are very important for us to annotate at scenes and

1054
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 3: to make note of. But again, rigidity is something you

1055
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 3: have to assess the scene. Now the pathologist is going

1056
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 3: to assess it and make note of it. But that

1057
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 3: data is all fine and good, but you've change the

1058
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 3: game now the body has been removed from the pristine

1059
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 3: state that it was in. After we get away from riger,

1060
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 3: we come to my favor, which is actually is actually

1061
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 3: going to be is actually going to be post mortem lividity.

1062
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 3: And riger, by the way, just to step on it

1063
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 3: one more quick second, is environmentally dependent in the seat

1064
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 3: in the sense that heat speeds the process up. Okay,

1065
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 3: So the hotter it is, you'll see an uptick in

1066
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 3: the change in rigidity. Okay, So you can have this

1067
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 3: post mortem lividity, which is the settling of blood. And

1068
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 3: you know what, it's dependent upon the one that one

1069
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 3: thing in nature that impacts us, all the ones that

1070
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 3: are keeping our highnees, you know, welded to the seas

1071
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 3: right now, and our feet on the floor, and that's gravity.

1072
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 3: Gravity dictates dictates this, and so as it pools, as

1073
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 3: the blood is drawn down, it's no longer circulating through

1074
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 3: our body. Okay. I was one of those kids. I

1075
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 3: never could hang upside down on a monkey bar right

1076
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 3: at the playground. I was always envious of the little

1077
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 3: kids that could do it. But did you ever notice

1078
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 3: something when those kids would invert on a monkey bar.

1079
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 3: What happens to their face and their head? Well, first,

1080
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 3: it actually swells a little bit, and yet it does

1081
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 3: change and so just think about that, and it freezes.

1082
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 3: The color stays there, and it's depended upon them settling.

1083
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 3: You can see. You can see live or mortise within

1084
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 3: twenty minutes, okay, And it can also migrate around the

1085
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 3: body if a body is say somebody kills somebody and

1086
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 3: lets them sit on the floor for an hour, they

1087
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 3: take them, put them in a trunk and reposition their body.

1088
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 3: You can have two separate presentations of life for mortise,

1089
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 3: and then once it gets out about twelve hours, baby,

1090
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 3: it's fixed. There's not enough embalming fluid in the world.

1091
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 3: And this is why the blood actually leeches out of

1092
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 3: the capillary beds and it stains the interstitial tissue. You

1093
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 3: can't drain it out. It's always there, and so it's

1094
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 3: always going to point back to an individual, and it

1095
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 3: becomes at that point what's referred to as non blanchable.

1096
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 3: If you want to really do an experiment real quick,

1097
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 3: just take your thumb and press it into your forearm,

1098
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 3: and your forearm will actually blanch.

1099
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 7: As you do that.

1100
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 3: You remove your thumb, Look, your skin blanches. If you've

1101
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 3: got lividity that's fixed right there, maybe it ain't blanch.

1102
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 3: It's going to stay there forever and ever.

1103
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 6: Amen, a man will come it up. Joseph Thrillingly will

1104
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 6: be staying with us. We're kicking off a Halloween week

1105
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 6: and we're going to share a case that really just

1106
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 6: lives in Joseph Scott Morgan's kind of dreams and nightmares.

1107
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 7: That more True Crime Tonight, We're talking true crime all

1108
01:00:57,800 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 7: the time.

1109
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1110
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1111
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan. Listen,

1112
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 2: Halloween is upon us. As I'm talking to you, I'm

1113
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 2: putting on the vest and Joseph is holding up a

1114
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 2: bloody skull. My goodness, Joseph, I don't like that prop

1115
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 2: but yes, you probably have the best Halloween costumes. Is

1116
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 2: that reably like skull and bones?

1117
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 4: I have to ask with you.

1118
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 2: I don't. Oh no, I think that's like a paperweight

1119
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 2: of swords, actually a candle, a skull, Joseph, only a

1120
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 2: forensics that's what I have, Joseph. What you guys are

1121
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 2: wondered spirits?

1122
01:01:58,360 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 7: Skulls are bound.

1123
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 2: That's wild that you both have the pen handle? Are

1124
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: you kidding me right now? No, that's amazing. That is

1125
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,439
Speaker 2: that is the cleanest example of kindred spirits if ever

1126
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 2: there was one, And that's awesome. We got to actually

1127
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 2: post that. That's pretty wild because listen, Joseph's also going

1128
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 2: to give us he's we're gonna lose him before we

1129
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 2: do any of our self care because he's gotta go

1130
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 2: to bed. But he is going to tell us a

1131
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 2: couple of one a very scary tale that has him

1132
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 2: chilled to the bone, which lets be real hard to

1133
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 2: pull off, and also some interesting Halloween facts such as,

1134
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 2: by the way, he's been teasing this to all of

1135
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: us for for a bit now, none of us know

1136
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 2: the answer. What is the origin of the word or

1137
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 2: I guess term boo? And why is it so us?

1138
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 3: You can add another to it if you wish. I

1139
01:02:54,720 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 3: don't know. Yeah, okay, I'll start off with this. Don't

1140
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 3: have any Scooby Doo fansoo, and I like the old

1141
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 3: Scooby Doo. I'm pretty scrappy dooe. I like the old nineties.

1142
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 3: Took new Shaggy wast the entire time. He had the

1143
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 3: munch easy the entire time.

1144
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:17,439
Speaker 4: It was just Shaggy was definitely smoking something.

1145
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 3: Yeah he was. He was on the wheetles. So there

1146
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 3: you go. So anyway, Yeah, when when I was very young,

1147
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 3: I mean young investigator, I was probably twenty years twenty

1148
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 3: one years old, and I was working in the morgue

1149
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 3: with a pretty cool forensic pathologist. He allowed me to

1150
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 3: learn from him a real sage of a guy. And

1151
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 3: we had an old man that came into into the

1152
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 3: morgue that had died in a car accident. He had

1153
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 3: had a heart attack, drove off the road and you know,

1154
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 3: he sustained some trauma, but the heart attack is what

1155
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 3: led to the car accident. And that's one of the

1156
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 3: things you have, you know, you try to figure out

1157
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 3: the puzzle, right, And we knew they had a long

1158
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 3: history so we have him on the table and we're

1159
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:16,439
Speaker 3: doing what's referred to as the external examination. The old

1160
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 3: pathologist is standing across from me. I'm young, I'm kind

1161
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 3: of standing there, ready to do whatever he tells me

1162
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 3: to do. I'll jump you just tell me how high,

1163
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 3: that sort of thing. And so we have this old

1164
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 3: gentleman undressed, and the pathologist is standing there with his clipboard,

1165
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:40,959
Speaker 3: and he says, okay, I'm ready to look at his back.

1166
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:46,959
Speaker 3: So that means that I have to take the old

1167
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 3: gentleman by his right shoulder, okay with my right hand,

1168
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,200
Speaker 3: and his left hip and his right hip with my

1169
01:04:55,320 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 3: left hand, and pull this fellow into me. Okay, standing

1170
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,800
Speaker 3: there right, just envision this. It's it's a morgue. It's

1171
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 3: got the smell of chlorox and pond saw and there's

1172
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 3: stainless still table. You can hear. You can hear the

1173
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 3: knives and the instruments dropping and clinking on the on

1174
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 3: the table, and water is always dripping in this place.

1175
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 3: And so I'm standing there wanting to do a good job.

1176
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 3: And I take take the old jized body and I

1177
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 3: pull it toward me and he rests there against my chest, okay,

1178
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 3: against the lower chest and abdomen because I'm standing upright.

1179
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 3: He's on the table. He's lying now. The body is

1180
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 3: on the left side. And it takes about twenty seconds quiet.

1181
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 3: The doctor's just making notes on his clipboard, and all

1182
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 3: of a sudden there is a sound and the sound

1183
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 3: goes like.

1184
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 2: This, Oh my god, I got to quit this job instantly,

1185
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 2: get out of I hate this story.

1186
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 3: And I freeze while gripping this guy's body. I'm not

1187
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 3: letting go of it. Why I need a job. So

1188
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 3: I'm standing there and I'm gripping this guy's body, and

1189
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 3: I look up into the eyes of the pathologist and

1190
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 3: there's this rye grin that comes over his face and

1191
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 3: he leans in and he says scary in it, and

1192
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 3: I was like, yes, sir. He's like, that's merely air

1193
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 3: escaping his lungs and traveling over now his dead vocal

1194
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 3: cords and issuing from his mouth. And we went on

1195
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 3: to suggest at that point in time, and this is

1196
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 3: why I think this is true that you might hear

1197
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 3: people say boo, all right, it's not boo all the

1198
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:58,439
Speaker 3: old Scooby Doo shows, And I swear somebody has heard

1199
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 3: this in the past before. That's in media and entertainment

1200
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 3: because all of the older shows, the ghost as they

1201
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 3: would be portrayed, would make the sound of like this.

1202
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:15,959
Speaker 3: That's the origin of this. That's where that comes from,

1203
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 3: because the dead do make sounds like that, and they

1204
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 3: can also be flagulant as well. But that's a story

1205
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 3: for another time. And that does happen as well.

1206
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 2: Are you saying that I could art?

1207
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it happens. It happens on a regular basis.

1208
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 3: Sure it does escape, but yeah, so that and it

1209
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 3: at that moment in time. I know that's a funny,

1210
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 3: you know, little ditty if you will. But when I

1211
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 3: was a kid and I was twenty one years old,

1212
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 3: it scared the hell out of me because I didn't

1213
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 3: expect that to happen. And what's odd is that it

1214
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 3: happened so many more times. I was around seven thousand autopsies,

1215
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 3: and so it happened other it's a provable scientific thing

1216
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 3: that goes on and other people have experience instant. But

1217
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 3: you know what, every single time it happened, I was

1218
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 3: always no matter how older, how much older I got

1219
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 3: in the field, I would always look and to see

1220
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 3: if the guy was blinking or something. When I was

1221
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 3: doing that, I always had this indwelling fear that I

1222
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 3: was going to start an autopsy and make the initial

1223
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 3: incision and blood was going to start coming out of

1224
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 3: the bottom. That's the biggest fear that you have. You

1225
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 3: don't have the fear of the dead. You have the

1226
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 3: fear that the person is not dead, that you're happened.

1227
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 2: No not to you, no, no, not for me.

1228
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 3: And they are these these stories that have bound out there,

1229
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 3: and I know that people could dm these in. I

1230
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 3: know people could talkbacks on them, because there are all

1231
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 3: these stories that have come down for years and years

1232
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 3: and years.

1233
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 5: You know, if you have one of these stories, give

1234
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,120
Speaker 5: us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime or as

1235
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 5: Joseph suggested, leave us a talk back. I am dying

1236
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 5: to hear these stories, so please do that. I'm body

1237
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 5: moving and I'm here with Courtney and Stephanie and were

1238
01:08:55,360 --> 01:09:00,160
Speaker 5: joined by Joseph Scott Morgan. So, Joseph, yeah, what is

1239
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:02,599
Speaker 5: the next What is the story that you were going

1240
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,640
Speaker 5: to tell us that haunts you already know.

1241
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 3: This is actually this is actually a real, a real story.

1242
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 3: Because I think that people one of the questions that

1243
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 3: that I always get as a former medical legal death

1244
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,479
Speaker 3: investigator and a person that was around the dead, uh

1245
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 3: for so long, people you know, often ask me, have

1246
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:33,720
Speaker 3: you ever seen any kind of ghost or spectrum? You know,

1247
01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 3: thing you know that terrified you, And it never, it

1248
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:44,759
Speaker 3: never happened with me. That that's not something that ever occurred. However,

1249
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 3: I have been in places. I believe places are haunted,

1250
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 3: not people. I believe that that places. You can go

1251
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,720
Speaker 3: to certain places, and I know that folks out there

1252
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 3: will understand what I'm saying. You you have the sense

1253
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 3: of a presence that's there or something that was there

1254
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:07,160
Speaker 3: and that was that occupied that space that was probably

1255
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 3: pretty dark, and I had it happened a couple of times.

1256
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 3: But probably the most profound case that I ever had

1257
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:19,680
Speaker 3: was a case that I worked again when I was

1258
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:23,640
Speaker 3: a very young investigator. And this is a case of

1259
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 3: an individual that's what he would be referred to today

1260
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 3: as a family annihilator. And he was found dead actually

1261
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,960
Speaker 3: in his car that was parked in front of a

1262
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:42,040
Speaker 3: large Catholic parish in New Orleans. He had ended his

1263
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 3: life in the car and when we got to the scene,

1264
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 3: we began to examine him at the scene and also

1265
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 3: the contents.

1266
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 11: Of his car.

1267
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:54,000
Speaker 3: In the backseat of the car was just loaded with firearms.

1268
01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I've never seen so many in one car,

1269
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 3: just stacked in there, and the floorboard was covered in

1270
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 3: all variety of ammunition. And you have people that will

1271
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 3: go to graveyards and in their life, I've had people

1272
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 3: in church parking lots. I think that it's you know,

1273
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 3: they have the impression that it's you know, it might

1274
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 3: be sacri Saint, you know, to be able to go

1275
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 3: there for whatever reason. But we worked a case and

1276
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 3: there was a detective that had come up and said,

1277
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 3: we just got a call at a dental office and

1278
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 3: we think it's his parents and his sister. And so

1279
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 3: I went to the dental office after leaving that site,

1280
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 3: and this young man had actually killed his mother and

1281
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 3: his father, who was a prominent dentist, and his sister.

1282
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 3: And kind of on a side note, when when we

1283
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:01,640
Speaker 3: went to do the autopsies the sister, we went to

1284
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 3: examine her and she had this had her brazier on

1285
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 3: and she had I think I counted one hundred and

1286
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 3: twenty Saint Michael medals end to her brazier. They just

1287
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:23,880
Speaker 3: covered her all over and you know, when you see

1288
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 3: something like that, you think the person's afraid of something,

1289
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:31,600
Speaker 3: that they're trying to protect themselves from something. And this

1290
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 3: kid reflectively, you know, as I'm at the office and

1291
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:40,720
Speaker 3: where the parents have died and they've all been executed,

1292
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 3: and seeing her on the table, I went to the

1293
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 3: home where they all live. And these kids are adult kids.

1294
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 3: These are not young young kids. The daughter was in

1295
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 3: her early twenties, the son was in his late twenties,

1296
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 3: and Guys, when I walked into this house that was

1297
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 3: a one store, not really ranch, it was like one

1298
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:04,599
Speaker 3: of these It looked like one of these things you'd

1299
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 3: see in Beverly Hills that a lot of people back

1300
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 3: in the fifties, like a Dean Martin house, you know,

1301
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 3: this kind of expansive once you know it had a

1302
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 3: pool inside the house, which is really weird in New

1303
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:18,040
Speaker 3: Orleans to see this. But when you walk in the

1304
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 3: first thing you see is this gigantic altar when you

1305
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:26,599
Speaker 3: walk through the front door, and there's a massive Bible

1306
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 3: that's opened in front of it, and there's kneelers all

1307
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 3: in front of it, and there are candles that had

1308
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 3: been burned, and it looked like there were even little

1309
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 3: votive candles over there where you could light candles like

1310
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 3: you do at church. And you walk through the house

1311
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 3: and there's all this iconography all over the house, and

1312
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:46,799
Speaker 3: everywhere you go, you just feel like you're being watched.

1313
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:53,600
Speaker 3: The pool itself looked like it hadn't been swiming for

1314
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 3: years and years and years. There was a green film

1315
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:01,679
Speaker 3: that covered and they were in that they were living

1316
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:05,040
Speaker 3: with this pool inside of the house. And Guys, everywhere

1317
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 3: I went in that house there were hints of this

1318
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 3: kind of hyper religiosity everywhere. And I'll never forget I

1319
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 3: went into the Sun's bedroom and there was an inverted

1320
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:24,839
Speaker 3: crucifix in there. What. Yeah, And so for some reason,

1321
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:28,000
Speaker 3: and I just got a chill just talking about this

1322
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 3: because I hadn't thought about it in a long time. Well,

1323
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:33,840
Speaker 3: you guys mentioned it the other day, and what creeps

1324
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 3: you out? This creeped me out. It just really stuck

1325
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,719
Speaker 3: with me. And I've never I've never felt the urgency

1326
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 3: to flee a scene. I did that day, and it

1327
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 3: took me and I don't know what it was. It

1328
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 3: took me a while to get over that case. And

1329
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 3: I've seen really bad things before, but there was just

1330
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 3: something that kind of stuck in my brain with this

1331
01:14:57,080 --> 01:15:00,400
Speaker 3: case that just you know, still hangs onto this day.

1332
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 2: Sure. Sure, So that feels like the family was very religious,

1333
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 2: maybe putting up these altars and opening the Bible to

1334
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 2: perhaps protect themselves from the sick o Sun who's you know,

1335
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 2: got the upside down cross, who's looking to do bad

1336
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 2: things to all of them. And they were accurate.

1337
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 4: Well it seems like, I mean, Saint Michael's like the protector.

1338
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 3: Protector, yes, yeah, yeah, And at my parish we have

1339
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:30,880
Speaker 3: a statue of Saint Michael, yes de Satan under his foot.

1340
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 3: You know, he's got the chain in one hand, a.

1341
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 2: Sword, the sword right yeah, angel, right, Archangel, I'm wearing

1342
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 2: it around my neck right now, are you really look

1343
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:41,880
Speaker 2: at you? Angel Michael? Okay?

1344
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:46,040
Speaker 5: Pendant that it's a protector. It's supposed to ward off

1345
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 5: like evil. I was raised Catholic and that's what I'm

1346
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:52,840
Speaker 5: trying to remember. But wow, yeah, I mean that would

1347
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:54,680
Speaker 5: that would be creepy. Now in all the pins of

1348
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:56,719
Speaker 5: her breathings and.

1349
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 3: That was that was really I've never seen anything like it.

1350
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,760
Speaker 3: And I'm not trying to be disrespectful if they were

1351
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:05,960
Speaker 3: so there were so many of them that I'd never

1352
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 3: that had never occurred to me, and I often wondered,

1353
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:12,639
Speaker 3: could you literally hear her coming down the hallway because

1354
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 3: they it looked like one of these like headbands or

1355
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:19,160
Speaker 3: something where people you know, in like I think Middle

1356
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 3: Eastern culture, some of these people you know will do

1357
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:21,920
Speaker 3: these oh.

1358
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:23,719
Speaker 7: Yeah, and they would jingle.

1359
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 6: As you.

1360
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:28,080
Speaker 3: Thought about that, and the sound that it would give

1361
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 3: off almost like get away from me, Satan or whatever

1362
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 3: the case might be, it was quite terrifying. That's something

1363
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:34,840
Speaker 3: that stood with me for years and years.

1364
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:37,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's very creepy. Thank you, Joseph. And listen.

1365
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 4: If you want to hear more Joseph, listen to his

1366
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 4: very good podcast. It's called Body Bags. It's so good.

1367
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:45,639
Speaker 5: And stick around because we've got more to dig into.

1368
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 5: We're answering your talkbacks and giving you a taste of

1369
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 5: what to expect this week. Keep it right here, Agraham tonight.

1370
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1371
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with

1372
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:12,120
Speaker 2: Courtney and Body and Taha, Sam and the boys. And listen.

1373
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:14,599
Speaker 2: That was very scary. So if you have other very

1374
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:18,040
Speaker 2: very scary stories like that. Feel free to share them

1375
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 2: all week. We're doing all things Halloween, if you will.

1376
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:27,759
Speaker 2: And we have another talk backing lady and gentlemen working

1377
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:30,080
Speaker 2: in the neighborhood of podcast.

1378
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,920
Speaker 13: From last night, and you're speaking about the weight invest

1379
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:36,200
Speaker 13: which I feel like is the best thing slice spread.

1380
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:40,280
Speaker 13: So starting slow is great advice and not high weight,

1381
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 13: because that's just silly. Use it maybe, like you guys,

1382
01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:46,759
Speaker 13: do you do it? You wear it during a podcast.

1383
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:48,639
Speaker 13: Maybe the next step for you all would be during

1384
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:53,280
Speaker 13: some tours around the house, vacuuming, oh, doing dishes, et cetera.

1385
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:57,720
Speaker 2: By the way, they're doing dishes good because we only

1386
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:02,760
Speaker 2: do them either in betweenmmercial or for one or two segments,

1387
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 2: because it can be a lot, right, So that's good

1388
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 2: advice when you're actually, you know, doing laundry and your dishes.

1389
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 5: After you build up a little standa right like after

1390
01:18:13,400 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 5: you build up some which, by the way, I have

1391
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:17,919
Speaker 5: to get back to today, I have to or tomorrow.

1392
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:21,400
Speaker 2: Remind me to wear it for at least one segment. Okay,

1393
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 2: commercial for low and Steady Baby, Slow and steady. Yeah,

1394
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 2: well we're in no rush. We're just you know, we're

1395
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:31,680
Speaker 2: just waiting vests our way down to our greatness.

1396
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 4: So the next step would be maybe putting it on

1397
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:36,800
Speaker 4: the mailbox, right, or it's a great call take a

1398
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 4: little bit, yeah, exactly.

1399
01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:40,639
Speaker 2: Even just taking it on and off is a little

1400
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,600
Speaker 2: exertion of energy. And listen, it's going to be like

1401
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 2: lifting houses soon enough. So yeah, because there's a small step,

1402
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:49,639
Speaker 2: a small step in the right direction, which is all

1403
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,200
Speaker 2: we could ask for. What's a great tip. Thank you?

1404
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 7: I like it.

1405
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:54,960
Speaker 2: Keep another one. We have another talk back coming.

1406
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1407
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,360
Speaker 14: Hey, everyone's mark from the Hampshire mark and the sea

1408
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:03,200
Speaker 14: stands for maybe I should change it to crime. You guys,

1409
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:05,719
Speaker 14: a couple of days ago had this whole fun little

1410
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 14: cleaning episode or segment, and I want to tell you

1411
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:11,880
Speaker 14: a little cheat sheet. So back in the day, I

1412
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 14: used to do car shows, and you use pledge on

1413
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 14: the dashboard to make it super shiny without having a DeGreasy.

1414
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:22,960
Speaker 14: And you can even use it on your dress shoes,

1415
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:26,600
Speaker 14: your leather shoes, your high heels, your loafers. Wanted to

1416
01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:28,760
Speaker 14: pass it along, make it a great rest of your day.

1417
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:31,920
Speaker 14: I appreciate you, guys. Change in the world one day

1418
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 14: at a time. You guys are incredible. I love you

1419
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 14: all and I thank you for what you're doing.

1420
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:42,040
Speaker 5: Oh Mark, Mark, you are you are cute beyond.

1421
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:45,479
Speaker 2: We're doing our saundry and our waiting, waited best, so clever.

1422
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 2: And now the pledge on the sheets on the dashboard.

1423
01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:51,760
Speaker 4: Are my favorite. The saran wrap in the freezer and

1424
01:19:52,040 --> 01:19:52,559
Speaker 4: things like.

1425
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:56,599
Speaker 5: That, which works, It really works, all right, it does.

1426
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 7: I did it. I thought you. I was like, this

1427
01:19:58,439 --> 01:19:59,400
Speaker 7: is no way.

1428
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:00,680
Speaker 4: I thought, yes, sing you.

1429
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:02,720
Speaker 15: I was going to say the word the wrong word

1430
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:04,600
Speaker 15: by mistake, but I put it in the freezer. The

1431
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:07,840
Speaker 15: next day, I'm like, now it never sticks. It works

1432
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 15: so easy.

1433
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:10,799
Speaker 7: That's a brilliant one. And I'm tomorrow.

1434
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 5: But like the pledge on yeah on your shoes, I

1435
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:15,120
Speaker 5: never would have done that.

1436
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know how you take either it maybe

1437
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:19,320
Speaker 2: a wind ax or a wet sponge on your dashboard

1438
01:20:19,400 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 2: or I mean it always kind of use the arm

1439
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:25,519
Speaker 2: Offliny smoral ones don't totally work for me. Somehow I

1440
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:27,639
Speaker 2: can kind of see it because I'm nice and neurotic

1441
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:29,360
Speaker 2: where I can see it in the light and it's

1442
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 2: his streaks crazy making.

1443
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:36,479
Speaker 6: I will say Stephanie's car is one of the most

1444
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:41,280
Speaker 6: hygienic places that you ever want is really.

1445
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 7: Yes, Yes, it is pristine.

1446
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:46,520
Speaker 4: Mine is a disaster. I have water bottles everywhere.

1447
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 2: I just like, just it gets in my nerves. I

1448
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:52,719
Speaker 2: start to feel, I know, I'm like one of those

1449
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:53,920
Speaker 2: a little feel.

1450
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:57,559
Speaker 4: Like when you clean your car, it runs better day.

1451
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 7: It's a better day, airs through more. Yes, it's also like.

1452
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:07,080
Speaker 2: Showing an appreciation and gratitude for what you have, right,

1453
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:09,479
Speaker 2: So like I'm a big believer in making your bed

1454
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:12,719
Speaker 2: in the morning and just having respect for your space,

1455
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:15,840
Speaker 2: mostly at a gratitude, I guess, and also just I

1456
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:17,360
Speaker 2: don't know, I'm one of those that if, like I

1457
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:20,639
Speaker 2: have two piles of laundry and like a thousand dishes

1458
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:22,600
Speaker 2: in the sink, I can't really concentrate.

1459
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:25,240
Speaker 15: Yeah, I'm like you, and I like to come home

1460
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 15: to like the made bed.

1461
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 2: Everything is so good.

1462
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:31,680
Speaker 7: Letter it feels like.

1463
01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:33,719
Speaker 9: So true.

1464
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:36,559
Speaker 15: I had the worst experience in college because my roommate

1465
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,320
Speaker 15: was the polar opposite. I was a neat freak. Everything

1466
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:41,559
Speaker 15: had to be folded in perfect. He was a mess

1467
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 15: and they called us felix.

1468
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:48,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, and at one point I put a.

1469
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:52,040
Speaker 15: Piece of tape down the middle of our I really did,

1470
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:55,000
Speaker 15: because I'm like, this is so I almost personate, but

1471
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:57,200
Speaker 15: it's so annoying because it gets me heated that his

1472
01:21:57,520 --> 01:21:59,519
Speaker 15: dirty laundry would pile into my stuff.

1473
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 7: So the table tape.

1474
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:05,599
Speaker 4: Down the center is why we ride so organized.

1475
01:22:08,400 --> 01:22:10,600
Speaker 2: I like to make a mess, but then I have to,

1476
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:13,400
Speaker 2: like I'm a disaster mess God forbid in a hotel room.

1477
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 2: You know, I'm just messy, and I'm messy throughout the day.

1478
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 2: I'm like a messy, but then I have to clean

1479
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:19,920
Speaker 2: at night.

1480
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:22,360
Speaker 5: I have to unpack when I go out or when

1481
01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 5: I travel. So when I go somewhere and I have

1482
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:26,840
Speaker 5: a suitcase and I go to a hotel room, I

1483
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:27,680
Speaker 5: have to unpack it.

1484
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 4: Guys, or do you guys live out of the suitcase

1485
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:31,400
Speaker 4: or do you have to live.

1486
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:34,559
Speaker 2: Out of the suitcase. I've done too many shows about

1487
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:39,679
Speaker 2: the bacteria in that frame the story and what happens

1488
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,759
Speaker 2: in those fancy hotel rooms, and let alone the less

1489
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 2: fancy or the fancy and all ones that listen.

1490
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:50,799
Speaker 6: They get throughout the world just for work.

1491
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:54,200
Speaker 2: You know, really scary ones. And I we were, we were,

1492
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:58,639
Speaker 2: We've stayed in some really hotels. We did not get

1493
01:22:58,640 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 2: bed bugs.

1494
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:03,280
Speaker 6: Is shot my biggest to the point where literally officers

1495
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 6: of the law were like, you cannot and should not

1496
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 6: be staying there, and we're happy to escort you.

1497
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:13,559
Speaker 2: So no unpacking, don't unpack.

1498
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:18,280
Speaker 15: I do a hybrid, like if it's a two day thing,

1499
01:23:18,439 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 15: I'll live out of the bag, but if it's like

1500
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:21,559
Speaker 15: a week, I'm like, I feel like I need.

1501
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:23,320
Speaker 7: To unpack too, and I put my stuff in the

1502
01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 7: drawer until now.

1503
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:27,639
Speaker 2: Maybe I should should be no drawers involved. I think

1504
01:23:27,640 --> 01:23:31,240
Speaker 2: you should unpack your toilet trees on the sink, yes,

1505
01:23:31,320 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 2: for you know, your own insanity getting ready in the morning.

1506
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:36,280
Speaker 2: But I would always put a little towel underneath it,

1507
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:39,519
Speaker 2: and I would again, We've also stayed at some real,

1508
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:43,479
Speaker 2: real depressing hotels throughout the country in our day too

1509
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:46,960
Speaker 2: for work, and some really beautiful ones. But I would

1510
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:49,640
Speaker 2: put a little something down on the sink top and

1511
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,720
Speaker 2: then lay out your stuff. You're but I would try

1512
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 2: to keep it as tight as you can in the

1513
01:23:55,360 --> 01:23:57,360
Speaker 2: suitcase unless you bring the.

1514
01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:00,959
Speaker 7: Better Well that that makes a difference to what about.

1515
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:02,519
Speaker 2: Bring my own pillow case everywhere?

1516
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:06,759
Speaker 7: Do you do like that that's the pillow case, o case.

1517
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:08,960
Speaker 2: That's the whole pillow my back girl, but like a

1518
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:12,320
Speaker 2: little case in my luggage. I always keep a pillowcase

1519
01:24:12,439 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 2: in my luggage because again, we've heard too many I've

1520
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:19,800
Speaker 2: worked on way too many scary cases where people stay

1521
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:22,680
Speaker 2: in hotels and it's you know what, gross. I think

1522
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:24,000
Speaker 2: this would be a good talk back.

1523
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 5: I want to know what what people bring with them

1524
01:24:27,439 --> 01:24:29,280
Speaker 5: when they travel, Like that's what do you keep in

1525
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:29,879
Speaker 5: your suitcase?

1526
01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:30,639
Speaker 12: Time?

1527
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 2: Like, I can give you that.

1528
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:35,200
Speaker 5: I keep like a little USB charger strip in my

1529
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 5: suitcase at all times so that I always have it.

1530
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:39,800
Speaker 5: It's got like a plug and everything, you know what

1531
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:41,080
Speaker 5: I mean, So that might have to worry.

1532
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 7: About it, right.

1533
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:46,439
Speaker 5: I also keep a little water pick to travel water

1534
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:48,599
Speaker 5: pic in my suitcase. It's always in there. I don't

1535
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:49,640
Speaker 5: have to worry about it. I have to pack it.

1536
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:51,479
Speaker 4: Again, what do you bring? Let us know? Eight at

1537
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:53,479
Speaker 4: eight thirty one crime. I hit us on the backs

1538
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:54,639
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio app.

1539
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:57,080
Speaker 2: I do the USB thing. Then I leave it behind

1540
01:24:57,200 --> 01:24:57,960
Speaker 2: every single time.

1541
01:24:58,040 --> 01:24:58,559
Speaker 4: Do you relate?

1542
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 2: Unbelievable? I should just be in the business of leaving

1543
01:25:02,240 --> 01:25:04,800
Speaker 2: things behind. And it's also why I try to keep

1544
01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 2: things as in the bag as possible, less things for

1545
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:08,799
Speaker 2: me to forget.

1546
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:12,479
Speaker 7: Yeah, Courtney, what do you bring anything? Like any tip

1547
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:13,120
Speaker 7: I bring?

1548
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:16,880
Speaker 6: Well, first of all, I've had the same backpack, to

1549
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:19,759
Speaker 6: my mother's great dismay, I've had the same purple backpack

1550
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 6: since I've been sixth grade. And that is no exaggeration.

1551
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 6: And so my my carry on.

1552
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:27,640
Speaker 7: Is always that.

1553
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:31,400
Speaker 6: Love it, which is beat up to hell and from

1554
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:35,920
Speaker 6: ll bean, thank you very much with my initials on it.

1555
01:25:37,320 --> 01:25:38,280
Speaker 7: But what do I bring?

1556
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:41,479
Speaker 6: I bring every time too many books, which nothing could

1557
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:43,960
Speaker 6: be dumber than that. But I don't travel for like

1558
01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:45,559
Speaker 6: a day without three books.

1559
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:48,120
Speaker 7: I don't read them. I like them, I have.

1560
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:52,719
Speaker 6: Them, but I'm kind of like, utaha, if it's short,

1561
01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:53,920
Speaker 6: I'll live out of the bag.

1562
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:59,200
Speaker 7: Otherwise I'll make a point and like really move in

1563
01:25:59,200 --> 01:26:00,200
Speaker 7: in the whole thing.

1564
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:02,400
Speaker 6: And now I'm all gonna be I'm like itching right

1565
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:04,720
Speaker 6: now thinking about that buzzy corner of.

1566
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:07,439
Speaker 2: That just did the ditty case you know where we

1567
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:11,840
Speaker 2: heard all about the freak offs happening these's luxury hotels

1568
01:26:12,320 --> 01:26:15,879
Speaker 2: that they had to shut the rooms down for service

1569
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:20,360
Speaker 2: because there was so much wetness in drugs. You know,

1570
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:24,439
Speaker 2: that is not a unique scenario, So think about that

1571
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 2: every time you take your stuff out.

1572
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 15: That's a good point when I'm thinking the polish, well,

1573
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:31,599
Speaker 15: they polished it so nicely, but it's probably baby well.

1574
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:33,920
Speaker 2: They probably did. And I'm not suggesting that they're not

1575
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 2: cleaning the rooms, of course, but just think about just

1576
01:26:36,160 --> 01:26:38,479
Speaker 2: the you know, it's a lot of people to keep

1577
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:40,559
Speaker 2: up with. You know, you want the bathroom real clean

1578
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:41,040
Speaker 2: and stuff.

1579
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:43,320
Speaker 5: Obviously, when I went to Malaysia, I was there for

1580
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:46,240
Speaker 5: almost two months, and we would travel we traveled around

1581
01:26:46,280 --> 01:26:49,720
Speaker 5: the country filming for the filming the show, and we

1582
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:54,200
Speaker 5: would stay at a hotel like every three or four days.

1583
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:57,400
Speaker 5: And so I had these two massive suitcases with almost

1584
01:26:57,439 --> 01:27:01,320
Speaker 5: stuff in it and not unpacked. Would I mean, I

1585
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 5: just can't imagine. I would pack and then I would

1586
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:06,240
Speaker 5: repack that I would pack and I would repack well

1587
01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:10,120
Speaker 5: constantly when I was there. I can't imagine not unpacking.

1588
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 2: I just will. That's extended extended stay. So my vote

1589
01:27:13,479 --> 01:27:15,840
Speaker 2: on that would be different. Well, we only stayed at

1590
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:17,479
Speaker 2: the hotels for like three days and then we would

1591
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:19,720
Speaker 2: go to another Oh gotcha, Yeah, and I was still

1592
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:23,439
Speaker 2: unpack not both my suitcases, but like one of them.

1593
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:26,160
Speaker 2: My hard no, and that I disagree, and you shouldn't

1594
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:28,000
Speaker 2: put your suitcase on the floor and leave it open.

1595
01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:28,800
Speaker 4: I never do that.

1596
01:27:29,240 --> 01:27:31,439
Speaker 2: I never do that. You may bring home a bug.

1597
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:36,479
Speaker 2: Here's the topic. More tips.

1598
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:38,000
Speaker 7: Let's go back to the plus.

1599
01:27:39,520 --> 01:27:39,920
Speaker 5: Right now.

1600
01:27:40,040 --> 01:27:43,160
Speaker 2: And by the way, you can't bring nutrigena wipes, the

1601
01:27:43,160 --> 01:27:45,639
Speaker 2: ones that I use them every night, even when we're talking.

1602
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:47,639
Speaker 2: We're like taking her makeup off. You know, the ones

1603
01:27:47,680 --> 01:27:49,840
Speaker 2: in the blue packets. I feel like everybody had. I

1604
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:52,600
Speaker 2: love those if you're a woman. Yeah, and like, no,

1605
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:55,680
Speaker 2: they've been like recalled because they're causing all kinds of

1606
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:57,960
Speaker 2: potential skin situations.

1607
01:27:58,120 --> 01:28:00,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm understanding.

1608
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 6: It's the recall is across four states.

1609
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 5: Oh really, hopefully is it Nevada one of them? Please

1610
01:28:06,439 --> 01:28:07,280
Speaker 5: say now, Please say now.

1611
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 7: Please Texas.

1612
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:13,240
Speaker 6: This is just what I'm reading now, Texas, South Carolina, Georgia,

1613
01:28:13,320 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 6: and Florida.

1614
01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:17,360
Speaker 7: Yes, okay, we're good. I'm good.

1615
01:28:17,439 --> 01:28:18,960
Speaker 2: I would how do they really know this?

1616
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:21,720
Speaker 5: If I don't get to have my wipe and my medicube,

1617
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 5: I'm going to be upset, Like.

1618
01:28:23,200 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 15: I have that everyone's self care Sunday Hue medicube.

1619
01:28:28,360 --> 01:28:31,600
Speaker 5: Yes, medicube is like Korean skincare and I'm obsessed with

1620
01:28:31,640 --> 01:28:33,760
Speaker 5: it and I swear to God, it's working. I got

1621
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:36,879
Speaker 5: like that wand and it has like all kinds of lights.

1622
01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:39,639
Speaker 5: It does like the red like for like dark ooth,

1623
01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 5: it's journey. We're activating it. I have the red light.

1624
01:28:43,680 --> 01:28:44,160
Speaker 2: In your skin.

1625
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:47,600
Speaker 4: Does really By the way, you're not sponsored regretted.

1626
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:54,240
Speaker 2: Anybody now, Netflix, not even sure. By the way, we

1627
01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:57,760
Speaker 2: should rethink this. I know no way to bests have

1628
01:28:57,920 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 2: been participating in our nothing.

1629
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:05,720
Speaker 5: But that's the electroplaning. I can't I can't remember. You

1630
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:07,640
Speaker 5: have to look it up. It's these little wands that

1631
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:11,160
Speaker 5: Medicube makes, and it basically you put it on blue

1632
01:29:11,280 --> 01:29:13,840
Speaker 5: or red. I put it on blue because that's what

1633
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:16,680
Speaker 5: I need more of. And then you put the serums

1634
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:19,520
Speaker 5: and the lotions and all that on and it absorbs

1635
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:23,680
Speaker 5: into your skin faster and you to apply the serum.

1636
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:25,240
Speaker 5: And I do it twice. I do it in the

1637
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:27,120
Speaker 5: morning and I do it at night. And I'm not kidding.

1638
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:29,320
Speaker 5: I've only want you guys were here when I got this,

1639
01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:31,920
Speaker 5: it was like two weeks ago. How glowy I am?

1640
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:33,160
Speaker 7: You really are?

1641
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:36,080
Speaker 15: Yeah, it's even since I just first met you. Like,

1642
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:38,599
Speaker 15: it's good, your skin is It's really good.

1643
01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:40,479
Speaker 7: God, I'm gonna need that link.

1644
01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:42,040
Speaker 2: I must that link.

1645
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:44,880
Speaker 5: Also, I'll say, now this is the mini, I want

1646
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:47,240
Speaker 5: the pro, but the pro is like two hundred dollars

1647
01:29:47,280 --> 01:29:48,320
Speaker 5: and I don't have that kind of money.

1648
01:29:48,479 --> 01:29:49,719
Speaker 4: This was like sixty bucks.

1649
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:51,479
Speaker 7: Okay, I like it all right?

1650
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:53,400
Speaker 2: What is your skincare regime?

1651
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:56,599
Speaker 7: Now it's going to feel like a true ad.

1652
01:29:56,640 --> 01:29:58,680
Speaker 15: But I actually don't really do a lot like I

1653
01:29:59,080 --> 01:30:02,960
Speaker 15: like to exfoliate, and then I try to do it

1654
01:30:03,040 --> 01:30:05,680
Speaker 15: every other day. You're supposed to do it less than that.

1655
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:08,360
Speaker 15: But something it feels cleaner when I foliate. It does,

1656
01:30:08,439 --> 01:30:10,600
Speaker 15: and I just now I feel like I add I

1657
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:12,839
Speaker 15: just got into this new serum product.

1658
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:14,040
Speaker 2: What is it?

1659
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:15,639
Speaker 7: I feel like? But no, it's.

1660
01:30:15,479 --> 01:30:18,920
Speaker 15: Actually in general, I've been told you should start using

1661
01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:22,160
Speaker 15: a serum underneath to moisturize.

1662
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:24,520
Speaker 7: I have never done that. I always just use a moisturizer.

1663
01:30:24,720 --> 01:30:27,200
Speaker 2: I'm a moisturizer. Wait, what is the serum?

1664
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 7: I realize now this one. I'm tired of plugging other people.

1665
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:34,920
Speaker 2: I guess we should we should ask for the ad sale,

1666
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:36,080
Speaker 2: I suppose, But.

1667
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:39,320
Speaker 7: This one is doctor Moretta. I've never heard of that one.

1668
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:41,840
Speaker 4: But I like molecules too, and it's real cheap.

1669
01:30:42,479 --> 01:30:43,520
Speaker 2: That's molecules.

1670
01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:44,840
Speaker 4: That's really good one.

1671
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:47,200
Speaker 15: But I did something else to treat myself for self

1672
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 15: care that actually I got myself a chocolate chip cookie.

1673
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 2: Yes, I broke into the Halloween candy. I hide it

1674
01:30:57,040 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 2: for myself and then I'm like, actually, I know.

1675
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:00,879
Speaker 7: Who know a secret?

1676
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 2: Wait, I'm the one that actually knows the answer.

1677
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:05,439
Speaker 6: Here.

1678
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:08,519
Speaker 2: Those little mini reeses are so good.

1679
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:13,439
Speaker 7: I love all the candies. The best one that's.

1680
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:15,360
Speaker 5: That was the one I always would dig through from

1681
01:31:15,360 --> 01:31:18,920
Speaker 5: the bag of candy, like even my nieces like, did

1682
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:19,839
Speaker 5: you get any races?

1683
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:22,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, they want to out a little bit.

1684
01:31:22,479 --> 01:31:27,120
Speaker 6: Nobody wants a stim the freezer, and nobody wants the

1685
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:30,600
Speaker 6: popcorn balls, right, nobody wants that?

1686
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:33,920
Speaker 2: Or the butterscotch. What is it the worn.

1687
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:37,280
Speaker 6: Welches like you get at your grandparents' house? Is that

1688
01:31:37,280 --> 01:31:38,760
Speaker 6: what you talk about, Stephanie?

1689
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:40,040
Speaker 2: What they call it again?

1690
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:42,400
Speaker 7: Yes, they're like the butter scotch, the butter scotch.

1691
01:31:42,120 --> 01:31:43,080
Speaker 2: Things the way.

1692
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:46,200
Speaker 7: I love.

1693
01:31:46,400 --> 01:31:49,400
Speaker 2: They're actually quite delicious, So it's not a dig on Werthers.

1694
01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:52,360
Speaker 2: In the right moment. They do hit the spot when

1695
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:55,520
Speaker 2: you're leaving the dentists, for example, but like not on Halloween.

1696
01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 2: Come on, now we're talking quick.

1697
01:31:59,000 --> 01:31:59,439
Speaker 7: Talkers.

1698
01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:01,920
Speaker 2: I like an almond joy, but you know I like

1699
01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:03,760
Speaker 2: I love enjoy.

1700
01:32:04,320 --> 01:32:08,840
Speaker 15: Yeah, you know, coconut into the coconut noo.

1701
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:12,680
Speaker 7: Yes, you and I court we would probably the best.

1702
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:14,639
Speaker 4: Frozen yogurt flavor are you talking about?

1703
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:16,320
Speaker 2: The coconut is delicious.

1704
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:19,960
Speaker 7: If I don't enjoy it either, people love it. I know.

1705
01:32:20,360 --> 01:32:23,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's my favorite, not his favorite.

1706
01:32:23,320 --> 01:32:25,840
Speaker 2: Hasn't clean shoes. My heels are about to get a

1707
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:32,400
Speaker 2: real shine. Holidays kind of flew by off the rails

1708
01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:34,599
Speaker 2: just in time. We listen, everybody. We have a big

1709
01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:37,680
Speaker 2: week ahead, so make sure you tune in tomorrow ed.

1710
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:39,720
Speaker 2: We're going to have you back on Monday because we

1711
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:42,360
Speaker 2: are talking about the recent or vest arrests at the

1712
01:32:42,400 --> 01:32:46,280
Speaker 2: Louver and that and much much more true crime tonight.

1713
01:32:46,320 --> 01:33:05,280
Speaker 2: Stay safe v from one Bye bye