WEBVTT - Daniel Horwitz on Trump Indictment Strengths 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:13.200 Hello, and welcome to the Votes and Verdict podcast, hosted 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:17.040 by the Litigation and Policy team at Bloomberg Intelligence, the 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:22.480 investment research platform of Bloomberg LP. This podcast series examines 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:27.040 the intersection of business policy and law. I'm Elliott Stein, 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:31.160 an analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence covering financials litigation, and. 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:33.080 My name is Nissan Dean, and I'm an analyst with 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:35.200 Bloomberg Intelligence covering financials policy. 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.279 So our topic for today is the indictment of Donald 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:43.240 Trump by the Manhattan District Attorney's officers. And we're delighted 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.479 to be joined by Dan Horwitz, partner and chair of 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:50.040 the Litigation Department and the white collar defense and investigation 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.880 practice at the law firm of McLaughlin and Stern here 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.720 in New York. Dan is one of the pre eminent 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.480 white collar criminal defense lawyers in New York City, if 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:03.040 not the and he represents clients in all forms of 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.720 white collar and regulatory enforcement matters. Prior to working as 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:10.679 a defense attorney, Dan was an Assistant District Attorney in 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.080 the Manhattan DIA's office, where he served in the fraud Bureau, 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:19.440 investigating and prosecuting complex white collar crimes, including securities and 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:23.479 tax fraud. Dan, it's an accomplished trial lawyer, having tied 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.200 many complex cases in both federal and state courts. And 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.520 on a personal note, and in the interest of full disclosure, 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.639 Dan and I were colleagues in a former life, working 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:36.560 together not just at the same law firm, but in 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.000 the same factist group and often on the same matters. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.080 So with all that, Dan Horwitz, welcome to the Votes 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:44.160 in Verdicts podcast. 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.160 Thanks Shelliott, thanks for having me. Great to see you, 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:49.920 Thanks Nathan, thank you for having me. 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.120 Yeah, it's great to have you here. So Dan, you know, 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:55.560 I'm really excited to have you on today's show because 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.720 you know, I really can't think of anyone better to 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:02.640 give us legal analysis of the Trump indictment. You worked 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.920 in the Manhattan DA's office as a prosecutor for about 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.160 ten years, and then, as many prosecutors do, you moved 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.480 to the defense side in private practice, and you also 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.880 served on the transition team for the DA album Brag. 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:21.079 So you're obviously extremely qualified to analyze the indictment from 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:26.160 both the prosecutor's perspectives but also the defense perspective. But 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:29.600 before we jump into that analysis of the indictment, we 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.920 usually like to start by asking our guests a little 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.960 bit about their background. So maybe tell us a little 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.639 bit about your legal career, about your time in the 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.080 DA's office. It was about your current practice, and maybe 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.160 as part of all that, tell us a little bit 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.919 about the importance of the Manhattan DA's office and where 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.440 it fits in the prosecutors universe. 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:54.240 Sure, so let me work backwards and start with your 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:58.440 last question about the significance of the Manhattan DA's office. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:00.680 And it does sort of play into why I. 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:01.720 Went there and. 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.680 How my legal career ended up being shaped. But the 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.920 Manhattan Die's Office, for really close to one hundred years, 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.519 you know, has been the pre eminent local prosecutor's office 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.480 in the country. And in part that's because it's in Manhattan, 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:27.520 and it's also because basically you've had three or four 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.480 very significant people who have held that office over the 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:35.720 last hundred years who began really the practice of what 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:41.400 we recognize today to be a modern white collar focus 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.400 on criminal law, beginning with Thomas Dewey and then Frank 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.040 Cogan and then Robert Morgentha who I worked for for 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:52.600 ten years. And the office is unique not just because 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:57.680 in Manhattan there are you know, the full panoply of 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:03.000 street crime cases often you know, grabbing headlines, but you 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.760 have Manhattan being the financial center of the world. And 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:13.320 while that has over the last fifty or sixty years, 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:16.159 you know, been in the public's mind the focus of 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:21.640 federal prosecutors, the Manhattan DIA's Office was prosecuting white collar 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.680 crime long before the US Attorney's Office, did you know, 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:31.680 going back to the racquetbusters that Tom Dewey set up 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:36.440 and Frank Cokin continued. So it's an important office in 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:42.680 terms of framing white collar cases and developing theories and 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:49.440 techniques to investigate and prosecute white collar crime. So my 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:54.520 own background in terms of how I got there, I 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.400 was very interested in white collar crime and had spent 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:01.799 eight or nine years after I graduated from college working 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.640 on Capitol Hill and going to law school at night. 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.240 And during the course of my time on Capitol Hill, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:14.120 there were a number of legislative and oversight matters that 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:19.080 I worked on involving the oil industry and a variety 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.560 of tax related crimes. And that's how my interest in 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.960 white color crime is really peaked, and I really wanted 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.400 to work as a white collar prosecutor, and was fortunate 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.120 enough to get an offer from Manhattan Die's Office, and 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.880 actually chose to go there as opposed to the Department 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.560 of Justice, because I wanted an opportunity to work for 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:43.840 Bob Morgenthaw, who again is you know, you know, was 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:48.800 probably the most preeminent local prosecutor in the country, if 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:53.240 not in history, and was fortunate enough to work, as 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.960 Eliot you said, on a variety of white color cases, 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.799 mainly in the area of securities fraud and also procurement 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:06.159 related fraud, and then as a defense lawyer. As you said, 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:11.600 you know, I, as Elliott knows, my wife and I 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.799 had a child and we were living in Manhattan and 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:20.080 the reality of continuing in a career of public service 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:24.440 was really not going to happen. So I went into 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.920 the private sector and have spent the better part of 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:33.080 my career working on white collar related cases for individuals 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:37.560 and companies and have many cases and have had many 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.400 cases with the Manhattan Day's Office, along with cases with 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:45.680 the federal prosecutors and other prosecutors and regulators in the 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.599 metropolitan area. But you're right, I think I have a 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:56.200 pretty good insight into what drives and motivates the Manhattan 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:00.680 DA's office, not just under this current administration, but generally. 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:05.480 So that's that's my story, and I'm sticking with it. 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.800 It's a good one, and it's a good segue to 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:10.240 where I want to go next. You know, I want 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.760 to let's let's talk about the indictment. And what I 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.160 really want to do is have you first put on 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.680 your hat as a prosecutor or in your case, as 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.120 a former prosecutor, and tell us why you think this 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.600 indictment is strong. You know, I think most of the 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.080 public knows the indictment charge Sump with thirty four counts 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:32.680 of falsifying business records in the first degree, which is 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.920 considered a selony in New York. And the charge is 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:40.720 essentially accused some of disguising reimbursements to Michael Cohen, who 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:44.440 was his lawyer and fixer, I guess, and you know, 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.880 disguising those payments as legal fees to high pust money 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.040 payments to Stormy Daniels. But you know, give us the 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.600 inside baseball prosecutors take here. What makes the indictment strong 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.600 in your view? And what will the DA have to 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.800 do to establish guilt and how easy or hard will that. 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:06.000 Be, Yeah, Elliott, And it's a good question. The what 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:11.040 makes this case strong is that it's got layers of 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:16.280 multifaceted evidence that support the allegations. And by that, I 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:21.560 mean you've got a series of witnesses and a series 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.240 of documents that support the allegations. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:25.560 And we're not just. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:29.960 Talking about Michael Cohen, who will obviously figure centrally in 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.760 the prosecution's case, but the case doesn't rest exclusively on 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:41.360 Michael Cohen. You've got David Pecker, the the publisher of 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.760 of the you know, the publisher was involved in the 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:50.040 cotection kill scheme. You've got meetings, You've got witnesses that 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.560 will corroborate things that Michael Cohen said. I mean you 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:58.560 saw in the media this this line of witnesses that 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.280 were called into the grand jury, Met Kelly and Conaway, 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:06.319 Hope Picks and others. And of course you have documents. 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.679 You have you have a tape apparently, You've got documents. 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:17.000 You've got Donald Trump's signature on checks. So you've got again, 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:22.240 sort of a multifaceted array of evidence to support the 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.959 allegations here. You know, the theory. I know, there's been 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.840 a lot of talk in the media about is this 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:36.640 a viable theory? This theory that by making false entries 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:41.640 in the Trump organization's books and records to cover up 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:46.360 the hush money payments that were made to ultimately the 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:51.960 Stormy Daniels and to Karen McDougall. You know with this 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:57.400 second element that this crime of falsifying business requires proof 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.280 of which is an intent to commit another crime name 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:05.200 So the issue is which he is Is that a 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:10.240 strong theory because well, some people say that you know 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.680 that the second crime was election fraud, and others say that, 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.120 and the DA has said also that the second crime 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.959 relates to to New York state tax crimes. Is that 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:27.840 is that a problem because no case has ever really 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.400 been brought like that. And my answer to that is, 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.240 you know, I'll circle back to what I said at 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:38.040 the beginning. You know, federal prosecutors Morgan thought, the Manhattan 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.800 Die's Office, the Southern District of New York. These are 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:47.120 prosecutors that have that are known for thinking creatively and 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.880 pushing the envelope on the boundaries of what constitutes white 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.880 collar crime. I mean, and I like to point people 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.600 to an example that Elliott you'll appreciate. Given our shared 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.840 work for Ike Sorkin, you know, as Ike like to say, 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:07.199 for thirty years, the Securities and Exchange Commission handled insider 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:11.760 trading under the civil components of the federal securities law, 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:16.680 and then suddenly the Southern District decided one day that nope, 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:21.559 insider trading can be prosecuted as a crime. So the 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:26.120 fact that there is a case that arguably doesn't fit 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:30.400 neatly into a prior set of facts, that doesn't tell 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:36.080 me that the theory is problematic. And so I think 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:41.000 that the notion that you make an entry in a 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:47.400 company's books to pay somebody off, you make that entry 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:51.120 and you cover it up, you're obviously thinking about in 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.000 a variety of things, including are you going to take 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.959 a tax deduction for this expense? And given a special 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:04.800 what I think David Bakar brings to this case, namely 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:08.719 that there was an organized effort to protect the candidate 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.920 Donald Trump from bad stories getting out as he was 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:17.200 running for president in twenty sixteen. You clearly introduced the 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:22.520 element of New York campaign finance laws, of which there 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:27.360 are several that fit within this particular indictment. And again, 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.360 I mean, I'll just finish by saying, you know, there 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.760 doesn't have to be proof of the second crime. There 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:39.760 just has to be proof that the defendants were intending 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.640 to commit that crime. Doesn't it's not a coeight crime, 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:47.400 it doesn't require proof. So this concept that ge the 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.680 federal election laws preempt New York States laws, so you 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.839 could never bring this case, I don't think that's really 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.200 going to I'm sure that that's going to be an 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.800 emotion to dismiss, but I don't think that that's going 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:01.800 to I don't think that's going to give rise to 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:02.479 a dismissal. 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.320 And I guess the fact that the second crime you 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.120 don't have to actually prove, you just have to prove 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.440 that there was an intent to commit it. I guess 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:16.240 that maybe obviates any due process issues regarding that second crime. 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.800 I don't it seems a little odd that you don't 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.160 have you know, you can charge it as you know, 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.640 relate that there's an intent to commit it, but you 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.520 don't have to share that it was committed. 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:30.520 Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think a lot of 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.520 people have focused on the campaign aspect of this in 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.160 federal preemption. I mean, if you want to break it 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.240 down and we can talk like lawyers that we are. 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:45.719 The federal preemption statue exists in federal law, the New 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:50.240 York state laws exist in New York's election laws, and 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.960 there's zero in New York election law that says, oh, 0:13:54.000 --> 0:14:00.240 by the way, this statue doesn't apply because there's federal preemption. So, 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:04.760 and because you're also in talking about intent, you know, 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.680 is the defense going to profer evidence that, wow, when 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.920 we made these false entries to cover up the fact 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.600 that we were paying off a porn star and a 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:20.120 former playboy model, were we actually thinking, gee, guess what 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:24.280 we can do it? Because no, there's no state client 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.880 that could be committed here because right, there's federal preemption. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.760 I don't think so. I mean, I don't think that. 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:36.160 When David Picard testifies at trial and talks about, you know, 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.960 the conspiratorial conversations that he had with Cohen and others 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:44.680 including the President, about you know, we're going to do 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.640 this catch and kill program to protect you, I guarantee 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.600 the word federal preemption never came up. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.040 And what about Michael Cohen, I mean, you know, he's 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.320 obviously pleaded guilty to committing perjury and he's going to 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:02.200 be you know, a principal witness, imagine for the for 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.400 the DA's office. But you know, this is an issue 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:06.280 that comes up right in every single case. So you 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.360 have someone who's left, So how you know, how problematic 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:10.840 do you think it is? And how do you think 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.680 the D's office deals with him? 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:14.920 I mean, I think the DA's office is going to 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.360 deal with it the way that any prosecutor does. And 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.800 it goes to what I was saying before, corroboration, corroboration, corroboration. 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:27.200 They're gonna they're gonna tell the jury in essence, yep, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.920 Michael Cohen is a liar and a cree and you 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.920 wouldn't want him as your friend, and you wouldn't want 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.800 him as your lawyer. But here are the reasons why 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.280 you can believe what he's telling you. And then they're 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.880 going to point to David Pacar and Hope Hicks and 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.680 Kelly and Conway and all the documents and they're going 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:47.480 to say, you see, all this other evidence lines off 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.400 with what Cohen's telling you. Now, there's no question that 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.600 Cohen's got a lot of baggage. And Cohen is a cheat, 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.600 and he didn't just lie to Congress, and he didn't 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.480 just get you know, you didn't just plead guilty to purge. 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:05.560 He committed tax crimes himself. He committed financial crimes, and 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.600 for a long time, you know, he was he was, 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:14.120 you know, in Trump's inner circle, which also can ultimately 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:18.080 work for the prosecution, because the prosecution will say to 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:23.400 the jury in their summation, if you don't like Michael Cohen, 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.560 don't blame us for that, because we didn't pick him 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.320 to be our lawyer. The defendant, Donald Trump did. He 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.800 picked this guy. He used this guy, and he relied 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.320 in this guy, and it was when it was convenient 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.720 for him to throw him under the bus and say, yeah, 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.560 I used him for ten years. But guess what, I'm shocked. 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.640 He's a liar and a cheat. Don't blame us for that, 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.120 because it's the defendant who chose the people to surround 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:51.760 himself with. 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.120 So I have a question about you know, President Trump. 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.000 You know, he's always indicated, at least he's insinuated that 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:01.880 the Trump team is going to ask for a change 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:03.680 of venues since he doesn't think he can get a 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.640 fair trial in Manhattan. Does he any chances of moving 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:08.400 this case beyond Manhattan? 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.120 I don't think so I think that's a debt on arrival. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.639 I mean, I think, I mean, it goes without saying 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.199 that he's a widely known public figure and is a 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:24.760 polarizing figure. And you know, this this concept that Gee 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.320 will just pick Staten Island, which is a you know, 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:36.000 a borough that Lean's Republican, will just pick Staten Island 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.520 as a venue. That's not the way it works. I mean, 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:44.280 and I think that you know, I think New Yorkers 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.359 can be fair and impartial. I mean, I think, you know, 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.680 having seen jurors, and I think this is the way 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.159 the Court is going to look at this. If jurors 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:56.800 can honestly say, can they be fair and impartial? Yes, 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.920 Donald Trump is a polarizing figure. But if you pick 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:04.400 a large enough jerry pool, and you solicit enough potential 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.240 jurors and conduct a thorough vetting on those jurors, I'm 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.679 pretty sure that you'll be able to find, you know, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.520 twelve people who can be fair and partial. And I 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.040 think the Court's going to look at it. 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.080 So, you know, one of the questions I wanted to 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.760 ask was more of a Washington question, because you know, 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.080 I'm just trying to think of how this case plays out. 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.639 So you know, in particular, the twenty twenty four presidential 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.879 campaign has already started. But you know, we have in 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.960 January of twenty twenty four primaries in Iowa and New 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.000 Hampshire on the Republican side. At what stage do you 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.679 think this case is going to be at that point? 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.160 So you know, are we going to see something where 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.000 Trump is competing on a primary on Tuesday and then 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.000 appearing in court on Thursday, or you know, could this 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.440 is it not so much an issue? 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.679 I think that's probably what he'd like to do. But 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.399 I think that when primary season starts, you'll have had 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:06.840 all of the motion practice about, for example, a change 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.520 of venue or motions to dismiss the indictment. Those all 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:15.080 all have been resolved, and you'll be scheduling a trial. 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:22.040 And that's what Judge Mershon has signaled with the current schedule. So, Nathan, 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:27.560 it's entirely possible that this trial schedule will impinge on 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.720 whatever it is that candidate Trump needs to do in 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:32.720 twenty twenty four. 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.000 And how long do you think a trial like this 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:35.520 would last? 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.800 Probably a month. I mean you're going to pick a jury, 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.760 so in a case like this, that could take two 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:47.959 weeks in and of itself, you know, assuming they have 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.760 you know, ten to twenty witnesses, that's probably another two weeks. 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:53.760 So it could be a four to six week trial. 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.280 I mean, actually, let me just refocus that sort of 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:01.120 re refine that you're probably it's probably going to take 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:05.639 as long as the Allan the Trump organization trial, so 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:07.840 that I think took about six weeks. So I think 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:09.879 that's about what you'd see here. 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:13.200 So many different trials to keep back of so so 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.879 so the judge in the in the criminal case is 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.239 Justice Mershon, and I think it's interesting that he came 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:23.600 out of the Manhattan DA's office as well. And I 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:27.080 think Jack Smith, who was a special prosecutor looking at 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:31.680 the January sixth issues and the classified document issues, I 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.919 think ausor came out of the Manhattan DA's office, and 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.720 you know, all that speaks, as you did, to the 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:41.280 importance of that office. I'm wondering if you anticipate one 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:44.360 of the motions to dismiss being a you know, motion 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.080 to accused Justice Mersan because he came out of that office. 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.520 I don't think it's I think you're you're right, Elliott, 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:56.119 that they're gonna attack, but not in a a Donald 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.960 Trumpian way, but more in a legal way. The selection 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.720 enough Judge Marshon as the as the judge, but I 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:04.480 don't think it's going to focus on the fact that 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:06.400 he was in alum of the office. I think it's 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.359 going to focus on the fact that how is it 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.119 that of all the judges in New York County sitting 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.800 in the criminal court, how is it that Juan Marshan 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.800 ended up with this case? And there's going to be 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.119 a challenge to the selection process, which which will fail. 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:27.719 And it will fail because having had having had a 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:30.639 case where I actually litigated this where there was a 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:32.679 challenge to a grand jury judge when I was a 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:37.879 prosecutor the appellate court in the New York Region, the 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:43.000 First Apartment ruled that the judges that run the court 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:47.119 system have wide latitude in selecting judges, and so I 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.960 think that's going to fail. But you're right. They they 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.520 will attack Juan Marcheon and they're going to My prediction 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.520 is that they're going to do everything they can to 0:21:57.600 --> 0:21:59.760 try to bait them and pick fights with him and 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:03.800 to draw him out in a way that will assist 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:07.960 them in challenging his selection and maybe going to you know, 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:12.040 your question about the change of venue. Not only can 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:14.040 he not get a fair shape with the Jerry Pool, 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:15.680 but he can't get a fair judge. 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:19.720 And we're Marassan and Jack Smith and the DA's office 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:21.440 at the same time as you did. You overlap with him. 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:24.080 I overlap with both of them, and I don't I 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:26.280 think they were there. I think they were there at 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:29.360 the same time. I know them in passing. I mean 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:31.760 I knew them in passing. I was, I think, pretty 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.439 senior to them when they were in the office. But 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.959 I think you know, look, the press reports on them 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:42.480 are pretty accurate. They're people who are They're disciplined, they 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:47.760 call balls and strikes. They're serious people. They're serious lawyers. 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:54.119 They really embody the kind of spirit and training that 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.000 the Manhattan DA's Office, especially under Bob MORGANFA represents. 0:22:58.040 --> 0:22:58.320 The mean. 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:02.440 They're people who will all the facts and the law 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:03.760 without fear or favor. 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:08.199 So, you know, talking about the other potential indictments out there, 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:11.520 we saw press reports from Georgia stating that the decision 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:15.239 there would be made sometime this summer. My question is, 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:17.760 you know, how would that play out if President Trump 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:21.600 is facing two or even three different indictments, which takes priority. 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:23.680 How to the advance at the same time? How can 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:25.720 we you know, how will it play. 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:29.160 Out, assuming that there are other indictments. I'm not sure 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:30.840 that all the judges are going to get on the 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:34.119 phone and say, hey, let's work out a schedule. But 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:38.919 the but, Nathan, the idea that a defendant is facing 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:41.760 charges in more than one jurisdiction is not unique. Look 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:44.840 at Harvey Weinstein. He was prosecuted, he was indicted first 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:47.840 in New York, and then he was indicted in Los Angeles, 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:50.960 and the prosecution proceeded in New York first because it 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.560 was started first and it was further along. So I'm 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:59.919 going to assume that that schedule, that sort of scheduling 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:06.280 structure will dictate which case goes first. You know, who 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:10.440 knows if he gets indicted in federal court in Washington, DC. 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:14.880 You know, is it likely that there be a trial 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:19.800 of that those charges, whatever they might be, before the 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:22.680 Manhattan DA's case goes to trial. I don't see that 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:27.200 because you're in May now and you're on a schedule 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:32.040 that would probably lead to a trial in the In 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:34.840 the New York County case, in some time in the 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:38.760 probably the first half of the first quarter of twenty 0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:42.720 twenty four. And I think that, you know, it would 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.040 be unrealistic for either of the other jurisdictions that are 0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:50.359 potentially in play to have trials be conducted before that. 0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:54.639 It's good to know. And then one other question that 0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:57.200 I had, and I know a lot of folks probably 0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:00.359 are asking the same question when the you see the 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:02.960 news reports that you know, if President Trump is convicted, 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:04.840