WEBVTT - The Sony Pictures Entertainment Hack 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:12.200 Get in touch with technology with tex Stuff from dot com. 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.600 Hey there, welcome to tech Stuff. I'm Jonathan Strickland, and 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.080 joining me in the studio today is my esteemed colleague 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:21.799 Ben Bullen, host of many shows, one of which is 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:25.840 Stuff They Do Don't Want You To Know. Yes, thanks 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:29.639 for having me on. And of course by now listeners 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:33.040 are probably used to us hanging out here on tech 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.840 stuff and in our various other endeavors. Yeah, yeah, Ben 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.560 and I are thickest thieves. Ben is one of those 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:43.720 most valuable player types in her office who will jump 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.640 in at a moment's notice to help folks out, even 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.840 at the expense of his own sanity, which I don't value. 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:53.040 So I'm happy to have him here. Thanks man, that 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:55.400 might be the nicest thing you've ever said to me. 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:59.320 It could be. Ben also had me on his show 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:01.400 Stuff They Don't Want You To Know, to talk about 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.840 today's topic, the Sony Hack, And at the time when 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.800 we were recording, it was still in December and the 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.400 story was still unfolding. In fact, you could say that's 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:13.520 still unfolding now, although the news has certainly slowed down 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.880 significantly since the end of December. But we ended up 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:19.880 talking about the story as far as we could at 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.080 that point, and even made some predictions of our own, 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:26.160 some some theories of our own. So, uh, in order 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.319 to return the favor, Ben's joined me for this episode 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:31.600 so that we can revisit that topic, talk about the 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:33.600 Sony hack, maybe talk a little bit about some of 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.080 the information that came out after we had already recorded 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:41.520 the episode, and uh, just kind of explain what happened 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.720 and how it's different from some of the other big 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.000 stories we've heard, Like you know, all the stories about 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.960 the Sony PlayStation network at the Xbox Live network getting 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:56.360 brought down, those were done through direct denial of service 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.280 attacks or distributed denial of service attacks, I should say, 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:01.680 so they were just atributed denial of service attacks, which 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.800 is really a brute force way of shutting up a server. 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:10.800 Completely different in comparison to the original Sony hacks, wherein 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:13.960 the various films were downloaded. But before we go any further, 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.720 I just have to say I really appreciate what you're 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.760 saying here, Jonathan. I'm blushing. Thank god I grew this 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.400 beard out so you can see it, and thank god 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:27.119 as an audio podcast, but this is not entirely all 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.640 truism on my part. I come here also as a 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:34.120 representative of my co host Matt Frederick. UM, we had 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.040 such a great time doing this two part episode on 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.840 Sony for stuff they want, you know, and uh we 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.360 we actually went back and listened to it because we 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.400 liked some of the jokes that the three of us 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.640 were doing. But we really wanted another crack at this 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:55.120 just because other information is emerged. UM, and listeners out there, 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:59.959 if you do check out Jonathan's earlier appearance, UM, spoiler alert, 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.480 some of those predictions that you and I made are 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.120 not that far off. Yeah yeah, And in fact that 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.400 again we don't We still don't have all the details. 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:14.360 We still have some conflicting information out there, stuff that 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.799 conflicts with the theories we have. It still hasn't changed 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.639 my theories yet, But I do acknowledge the fact that 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:24.240 I the thing that I believe may not be true, 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.400 and in fact is being said to be untrue by 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.760 certain entities that go by three letter initialisms, like the FBI. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:36.480 Uh So, let's start at the beginning, A very good 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:41.200 place to start. On November that was the day that 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.600 the Sony hack was revealed, and I say revealed because 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.960 the extent of this hack, the incredible amount of information 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.360 that was stolen as part of this hack was so 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:58.480 huge as to require months of time toensic research. I mean, 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:03.880 you're talking about the initial story we got and was 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.200 that the the hackers responsible claim to have stolen one 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.600 terabytes of data. A terabyte of data is a huge amount, right, 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.560 And if you're thinking of a hacker that's accessing a 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.120 system remotely, so we're assuming that this person did not 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:24.039 dress themselves up as a Sony employee infiltrate the company. 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.599 If you're talking about remotely accessing this and siphoning off 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:31.120 that data. Guys, you know, if you've ever downloaded a 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.120 big file, you know it takes time. Even if you 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.279 have a fast internet connection, it could take a while. 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.719 You know, if you're trying to download let's say a 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:41.839 really big computer game that's maybe thirty or forty gigabytes, 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:47.239 that takes time. Terabytes are enormous. A hundred terabytes is huge. 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.120 It would take months to download that much information, and 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.440 only if the faucet is always on. Yeah, you and 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:59.080 also to be able to do it without raising anyone's attention, 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:03.120 because would see the activity over the connection. Yeah, you 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.800 would think at least someone would figure out something in 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.000 that time. So all of this is to say that 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.800 it's the While November twenty was when we became aware 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.280 of it, the actual activity had to have been happening 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.120 for at least a few months, if not longer. Right, 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.040 So what what exactly happens? I love this description because 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.920 it's so cinematic. Yeah, so imagine you are an employee 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:28.159 of Sony Pictures Entertainment, because we always say the Sony hack, 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.360 but we're specifically referring to Sony Pictures, so the movie 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.440 industry arm of Sony. So you're an employee of Sony 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.159 Pictures Entertainment. You go into work on November. It's the 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.279 week of Thanksgiving. You're looking forward to having dinner with 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.960 your family, having a few days off. You come in, 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.840 you turn on your computer to get your little work 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:50.800 you work done, type of, type of, type of, and 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.080 then all of a sudden, like it was a nineteen 0:05:54.360 --> 0:06:01.000 eighties computer thriller, a skull stylized skull all pops up 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:04.120 on your screen, and this feels like it. It feels 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.480 like a stupid movie already, Like you think about those 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.360 movies like the net. You know, any movie where Hollywood 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.120 is trying to get across the idea of what hacking 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.120 is like, and they they visualize it where it's not 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.400 someone saying at a computer typing in code. No, it's 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.839 creeping through a dungeon. And then you see a skull 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.960 and crossbones. That's firewall. That's what this was in real life. 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.480 The skulls pop up on everyone's screen and it has 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.200 a phrase that essentially says, this is just the beginning. 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:36.280 We've obtained all your internal data, and it went on 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.039 to warn that if the company did not quote obey 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:43.400 the hackers demands end quote, that the internal information would 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.000 be shared with the world. And this had this included 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.680 everything from well, they didn't even know what it included yet, 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.920 so they didn't have any idea of the extent of 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:57.400 that personal information that I that that sensitive info. As 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:03.040 it turns out, it was incredibly sensitive information. And those 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.880 demands we're going to get back to because the demands 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.000 are one of the keys I think to this mystery, 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.280 which is still sort is okay. So the way the 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.119 way it works out, the news spreads quickly eleven am 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:19.440 same day November, it hits the media right, that's right, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:25.000 and so this is where, uh, different media outlets start 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.320 to cover the story. Uh, the employees of Sony Pictures 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:31.640 have no access to their computers. Also, their email servers 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.640 are completely down, and even their phone systems because they 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:38.000 were using networked phones, which is you know, we we've 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:40.080 had network phones in this office in the past, so 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:41.800 it's one of those things that if your internet goes down, 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.600 suddenly you don't have phone service either, and that's kind 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.240 of creepsy out a little bit. So they literally couldn't 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.960 do any work. They couldn't access any of their files, 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.160 any of those important documents, contracts, all that kind of stuff. 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:58.720 All of that was inaccessible. And uh, meanwhile, as the 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.560 story would go on, I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit, 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.600 but we're gonna go through a timeline, little little detail 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.400 this stuff as we go through. But eventually the hackers 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:14.760 refer to themselves as Guardians of Peace or GOP. Yeah. 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.600 Also amuses me because to think when we're talking about 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.240 the GOP and this, since it's not the Grand Old Party, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.160 the Guardians of Peace. Um, this is when they claim 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.560 to have stolen one terabytes of data. Ten terabytes is 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:29.920 enough for all the information in the Library of Congress. 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:34.079 So they stole ten Libraries of Congress. Yes, they stole 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:38.800 the Library of Congress ten times. Now right, Yeah, I 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.280 used to use UM. I used to use uh conquistadors 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.240 as an element as a unit of measurement for everything. 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:47.520 But now I'm I'm willing to go and switch to 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:49.400 Library of Congress at least when it comes to data. 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.679 So yeah, this and and of course some of that 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:57.800 information was in the form of high resolution digital film files. 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:01.560 We'll talk more about that. And the second so on 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.120 top of all that, this is this is another like 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.199 you know, kick once you're down. You've already been knocked 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.600 down because you've had your this hack stop your work. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.920 You've been told that a lot of your information has 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.760 been stolen. On top of all that, they also the 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:22.240 hackers also installed malware called Wiper And you can probably 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.280 guess what this does just based on the name. It 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.840 starts to erase all the data on these various machines. 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.880 So not only did you have all this information stolen, 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.760 but now it's truly inaccessible. It's been white from your computers. 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.280 I'm sure some of it was probably UM. You were 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:43.080 probably able to get back at some of it using 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.960 some I T. Expertise, like deleting a file off your 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:51.120 computer doesn't mean it's gone forever. Overwriting it does so 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.800 unless wiper and it may very well do this. Unless 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.559 Wiper over was overwriting all the data as it was 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.200 erasing it, then you could in theory at least get 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.160 some of that. But at any rate, Uh, there were 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:10.160 even that UM reports that Sony account Twitter feeds were 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.920 being uh compromised, and so the Guardians of Peace were 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.040 able to tweet out using that. We actually saw something 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.840 similar to that recently here in the United States with 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:24.040 UM the Central Command Twitter feed. Did you see that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.640 The The thing is that Twitter is uh, from what 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.360 I understand, much easier to compromise than something that would 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:35.199 be a well protected, uh corporate level system of of 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:39.160 this magnitude. But it does tell us something really important, Jonathan, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.319 because it tells us that this would have been a 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.600 multi tiered attack. Even if even if or rather a 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:49.679 multifront attacked, sir, even if Twitter was just uh the 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.439 sprinkle on the cupcake, this still shows us that this 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.199 was well thought out, It was established in advance, so 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.200 it doesn't seem to be an impulsive thing at all. 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.000 Just just going back to how much memory and how 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.480 much time it would take to steal Yes, yeah, I 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.920 mean obviously, like you wouldn't be able to do that 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.480 all on a single day. So novemby was essentially the 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.360 day that the hackers decided, Okay, now we let them 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.360 know what we have done. Like, we've already done it. 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:22.640 It's it's that parts. So we're we're already scott away, 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.080 scott free, you know. Now we're just gonna set the 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:28.400 the we're gonna make the world burn, and we're gonna 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.680 walk away in slow motion. But Sony still has no 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.199 idea what's going on? For like a week? Right? Yeah? Well, 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.720 I mean again, it happened during Thanksgiving weeks, so this 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:38.440 was a time when a lot of people were planning 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.200 on being on vacation and suddenly, now you've got this 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:45.120 amazing crisis to deal with. Uh. And it would take 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.160 more than a week for for executives to start even 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.720 getting a hint at how bad this attack was. So 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.080 on December one, that's when executives became aware that the 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.960 stolen data included personal information about employees and their depends, 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.880 such as social security numbers and financial information as well 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:08.840 as health information, like one of the leaks of documents 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.760 gave details to employees who had sought treatment for things 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:17.080 like cirrhosis or cancer or there or had dependents who 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.839 had to seek treatments for such things. And so, I 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:25.079 mean that's a huge breach. Now are we talking, uh, 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:27.959 in terms of for sent injury numbers? How many employees? 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:32.040 About fifty thousand social Security numbers were stolen? Actually around 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:36.080 forty seven thousand. I rounded up round, I rounded up 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.760 for forty seven thousand and fifty. But yeah, more than 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.600 forty seven thousand social Security numbers were stolen. Now these 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.000 were both current and former Sony employees, because it was 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.640 just it was databasis full of information of the various 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:49.880 employees who had either worked there in the past or 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.760 we're currently working. Not to downplay the gravity of this, 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.400 because it is very dangerous and it's an absolute nutter 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.360 of violation and privacy. But not only is that not 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.520 the end of what they stole, but they stole so 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.360 much that if you're okay, I'd like to infomercial this 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:09.720 and maybe chime in with some but wait, there's more. Yeah, 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:13.079 in fact, that is well warranted, right, because the first 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.520 one the one that's probably the easiest for people to 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.559 latch onto, because it's a simple it's a simple story, 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:25.960 the idea of stolen intellectual property, in this case, stolen movies. Right. 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:32.480 So the theft included five movies that were scheduled for 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.320 Sony release, one which had already been released, which was 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:39.480 a fury that one had already come out. But then 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:44.400 there was also Annie Mr Turner, Still Alice and to 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.080 Write Love on Her Arms. Those had all been stolen 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:53.080 as well. Uh okay, Yeah, So so those are the 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.199 easy ones for people to latch onto. But then there 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.680 was all the internal communications, right, this is where you 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:04.439 had information about salary, uh for top executives, like the 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:08.840 top seventeen executives, not to mention I think six thousand 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.880 other Sony employees. Their information got leaked as well. Uh. 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:18.440 There was also internal documents that uh that were the 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:22.240 records of people having complaints about Sony. Yeah, and there 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:29.920 were there were some fairly undiplomatic internal communications regarding regarding 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:36.040 coworkers or talent, yeah, or the President of the United States. 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.840 There were Yeah, no, there's we'll we'll touch on that 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.440 again in a moment. But out of all these you 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.360 probably heard the most about Adam Sandler. He got he 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.560 got raked over the coals quite a bit. And the 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.720 internal communications a lot of in place that they just 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.080 didn't like the direction that the movie studio was going in, 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.040 and they wanted to see if you were Adam Sandler comedies, 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.560 which is I guess okay, because Netflix picked him up 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:06.720 so for four films. Yeah, so Sony might be free 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:10.840 of him. We're not. And that's not the only stuff 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.880 that got leaked. Still, no, no, there's still more, right, 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:18.360 I mean, there's tons of information that got taken from this. Uh, 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:24.800 personal information about talent was leaked. Stuff like passports and visas, 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.160 like copies of this stuff that people needed to do. Uh, 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.080 there were so much things that so many things that 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.080 were stolen as a result of this. And uh, we're 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.840 gonna go through the rest of the timeline to kind 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.080 of give you an idea of how this all unfolded 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:42.320 and what extent we begin to learn more and more 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:46.720 about the damages. Uh. Meanwhile, one other thing to mention 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:51.400 is that Sony employees have many of them, have filed 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:57.000 lawsuits against the company for not protecting their personal information 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.240 well enough to prevent this from happen. Name so, there 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.320 are several class action lawsuits have been leveled against the 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.640 company as a result of this. Because people's lives have 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.360 been really impacted. We're not just talking about you know, 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.800 celebrities here. I mean that their lives have been impacted too. 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.800 And it's not I personally don't think that that means 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.760 that celebrities should be expected to deal with more crap 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.800 than the rest of us. I mean, sometimes that happens 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:25.760 because it's just one of those things that goes along 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.480 with all the fame and everything else. But regular employees, 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.880 people just normal folks like me and you who go 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.280 in to do their job every day and it may 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.240 not be glamorous, but it's it's an important part of 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.360 the function of the company. They were impacted too, just 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.360 regular folks, and they will tend not to have the 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.480 financial wherewithal or the social safety net to help protect 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.960 themselves in the aftermath of such an event, right right. 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.840 They don't have the benefit of that safety net like 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.000 people who might have of a lawyer on retainer or 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.840 enormous sums of money to lay in when you go 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.760 to sleep at night. You know, I have a I 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:10.800 have a very particular fantasy in my head of what 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:16.720 Hollywood celebrities like, how they live. It's mostly Scrooge McDuck oriented. Yeah, yeah, 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.280 did you see that? This is totally unrelated, But did 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.119 you did you ever see the study of what what 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:24.240 would happen if you tried to swim through a vault 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.960 full of gold? I imagine that you would not feel 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.000 very good. Yeah, it will. It will break you in 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.200 numerous ways. So maybe it's good that you were talking 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.840 about sleeping on paper money probably better for your back. 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.080 And speaking of back, you went to Let's see where 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.000 where should we go next? Let's look at November twenty eight, 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.280 because we've been talking a lot about this hack. The 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:52.320 the initial messages from the hackers didn't identify any particular 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.679 motivation for the attack. They it was more of almost 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.960 like an extortion thing, like do what we tell you, 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.160 or you're gonna get it. You know. It was like 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:06.520 and it essentially sounded like pay us off or we 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:10.000 will ruin you. Now. They didn't name a specific amount 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.119 of money at that initial point. They just said do 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:17.479 what we say. Yeah, so they The reason why this 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:20.240 is important is because a lot of the discussion that 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.399 has followed has centered around a very specific topic that 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.919 we're about to touch on. But that all came after 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.520 the fact, which makes me a little cautious in actually 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.080 saying that that was the reason for the whole thing, 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:37.240 the whole time. So November twenty, this is four days 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.520 after the initial attack was discovered. That's the first time 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.960 anyone floats the possibility that the attack was in response 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.560 to Sony's plans to release the film. The interview, which 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:50.840 I have we both seen it at this point. I 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:52.520 have not seen it. Did you watch it? I did 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.359 see it. What did you think? Well, I will I 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:01.720 will say that I enjoy uh, Seth Rogan and James 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.080 Franco a bit more than you, which is which is 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.760 something we've talked about before. Yeah, and it's not hard 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.520 to enjoy Seth Rogan and James Franco more than you do. 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.760 No offense. Right now, I have a very low you 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.000 own it. You own it, though, and I respect that. Um, 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.679 you know. I'll be I'll be candid here. It was 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:24.920 not my favorite film because I think that while I 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.720 I enjoy a lot of a lot of what might 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:33.080 be termed low brow comedy, I'm not above it. You know, 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.040 one thing that I noticed sometimes is that it is 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:42.520 very convenient to conflate satire and racism, and I think 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:46.080 there's uh to me. There were moments in the film 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.399 that I that I thought were racist, and I and 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:52.320 also was talking with my girlfriend about this and said, okay, 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.920 well check me here, like my am I being two 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.880 PC and my and my getting my jim socks, I'll 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:04.359 punched up over something unnecessarily. And she came in and 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.000 watched part of it, and she said, no, I think 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.600 that's pretty very racist. Yeah. No, there is definitely a 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:16.760 difference between using satire in order to point out things 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:21.919 that you see as being important or unequal or whatever. 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.439 It's something that you are actually commenting on and bringing 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:27.440 attention to and starting a discussion over. And then there's 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:31.199 a totally different type where you're just making fun of 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:35.520 something or or you know, especially in hurtful ways. Well, 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:37.040 here's a here's the question I have for you. I 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.800 don't want to derailist, but the question would be then, uh, 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:44.879 in comparison to let's say the South Park film also 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:50.560 a work of satire in any ways, So what makes 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.000 these two different? You know? Is it because the south 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.040 Park film is animated. I think part of it is 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:01.040 that South Park is really about pointing out the uh, 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:06.280 the the absolute ridiculousness of things like racism. I mean, 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:11.359 south Park used the movie used Canadians as the the 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:13.879 great big enemy, you know, that's what all the people 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:18.040 they blame Canada. There's a whole song about it. It's yeah, 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.200 it's a good song, actually was nominated for an Academy Award. 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.560 But at any rate, the you know, that was really 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.200 to kind of poke fun saying like this is literally 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.840 there's no difference between people like you know, you look 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.000 at Canadians and Americans, there's no difference there, just as 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.400 there's no difference with any people of any two nations, 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:45.760 and therefore the concept of racism itself is utterly ridiculous. 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.800 I see what you're saying. There's there's a method to 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.480 the prat falls, as you would say. But the I 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:53.720 don't know if anyone's ever said that before. But the 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:58.200 thing about the interview, despite that, I think it was enjoyable. 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.560 I definitely laughed out loud a couple of times. But 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:04.800 I believe it's received much much more, much more international 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:08.720 attention than ever would have had it not been associated 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:12.960 with this, and also, you know, for people who aren't 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:17.240 familiar with it, Uh, the entire film is about people 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:21.639 traveling to assassinate Kim Jong un, the current leader of 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:25.199 North Korea. Right, The whole idea about a host of 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:30.320 a celebrity talk show type program and his producer heading 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:32.520 over to North Korea because it turns out Kim jongun 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.399 is a big fan of the program, and then being 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.520 told by is the CIA, Yeah, yeah, the CIA to 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.919 take this opportunity to assassinate Kim Jong un and uh 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:48.520 and of course, uh spoiler alert, the leader is killed 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:54.359 in the film. Uh. So this was November. Was the 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:58.040 first time anyone had even mentioned this as a possibility 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:04.040 of a monovader. Yeah, there was. This was not from 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:07.000 the attackers at all. This was all just kind of 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:09.840 a I wonder if this thing that's coming out later 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.240 this month had anything to do with our actually next month, 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:15.199 because this was still in November. Um so, yeah, we 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:17.760 didn't really have any evidence here. And now there was 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:20.159 a North Korean website that had referred to the interview 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:24.440 as quote an evil act of provocation end quote. So 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:26.520 you could say, well, they said that it was an 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:29.520 evil act of provocation. We were they were provoked, so 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:31.600 maybe this was the act they were provoked into doing. 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:34.760 But you know, yeah, I mean, like I said, the 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:38.960 the attack itself must have gone on for months, and 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:41.199 it was only in those last few months that the 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.000 interview was even getting the promotion of here's a movie 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:47.040 that's coming out soon, and here's what it's all about. 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.080 So that would have meant that North Korea was just 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.280 paying attention to this film for longer than the American 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:57.560